From madhu at asiacontent.com  Mon Aug  7 00:22:33 2000
From: madhu at asiacontent.com (Madhu Menon)
Date: Mon Aug  7 00:22:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Domain redirection
In-Reply-To: <200008041700.MAA17195@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806222317.00b47750@203.197.60.113>

I run an NT server with IIS.

I have a domain, somedomain.com running on the server

What I want to do is to have http://www.somedomain.com go automatically to 
http://somedomain.com, including any URLs (so 
http://www.somedomain.com/somefile.htm would also go to 
http://somedomain.com/somefile.htm)

I can do this pretty easily using an ASP sniff n' redirect script in all 
the pages of the site.

What I want to know is if there is an easier way to do this directly at the 
server config level. Can I configure IIS to automatically do this? Both 
somedomain.com and www.somedomain.com both point to the same IP.

Thanks,

Madhu
--

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm 
not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein





From Anthony at Baratta.com  Mon Aug  7 00:57:42 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 00:57:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] Domain redirection
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806222317.00b47750@203.197.60.113>
Message-ID: <398E4F46.A32A15DE@Baratta.com>

Madhu Menon wrote:
> 
> I run an NT server with IIS.
> 
> I have a domain, somedomain.com running on the server
> 

Add all the permutations of the domain to the host headers on the Site Properties and
you can have both URLs pointing to the same site.

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From Damonc at transputec.com  Mon Aug  7 03:01:13 2000
From: Damonc at transputec.com (Damon Clark)
Date: Mon Aug  7 03:01:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Information about Intranet
Message-ID: <3AC40EBEC657D311BA8800A0C9E9338F47ED53@bos-gw.bosuk.co.uk>

Javier

Check out our Intranet services on
http://www.transputec.com/solutions/web/index.htm may be of interst to you.

Regards

Damon



Damon Clark

Marketing Executive
Visit our website for further information on our company
http://www.transputec.com 
> "We will provide our clients with IT-related products, services
>  and customer care that gives them a real business advantage" 
> 



From peter at genps.demon.co.uk  Mon Aug  7 04:53:23 2000
From: peter at genps.demon.co.uk (Peter Small)
Date: Mon Aug  7 04:53:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple JavaScript question
In-Reply-To: <000001c0002b$ca9e0040$01cba8c0@xpsr400>
References: <HJEKJLKDBKMALNNKCGFPEEBKCPAA.joelm@citycent.com>
Message-ID: <v04003a01b5b4332af96f@[158.152.26.28]>

The function confirm() returns true if OK pressed. It returns false if
cancel is pressed.

Wouldn't the return have to be included in an if... then... conditional -
to direct the transfer to another URL only if true was returned by the
confirm() function?

peter (another JS learner)
http:www.avatarnets.com


>Joel Morris wrote:
>> I want to have the user click on a link and then bring up a "confirm"
>> message box verifying that they really want to go to that link. Clicking
>the
>> "OK" should send them on their way, clicking "Cancel" should keep them on
>> the same page.
>
>	Using your sample code, try this:
>
><script LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
>  <!--
>    function proceed2() {
>      return confirm("Are you sure?") ;
>    }
>  -->
></script>
>
><a href="http://www.citycent.com" onClick="return proceed2();">Click
>here</a>
>
>hth,
>James Aylard
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !






From lists at icongarden.com  Mon Aug  7 05:31:24 2000
From: lists at icongarden.com (Jacob Stetser)
Date: Mon Aug  7 05:31:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
In-Reply-To: <E13LXk3-0003uS-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
References: <E13LXk3-0003uS-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <p05000a00b5b43e66457e@[24.6.48.4]>

>
>>
>>Darn it, "Impact" is a noun, *not* a verb. Something can have an impact,
>>but it cannot be "impacted".
>Actually I think there are medical applications of 'to impact'.
>
>Cheers
>Martin
>

The problem with the verb "to impact" is not its status as a word, 
but rather that it conveys very little information: "The new 
competitor's business model impacted our bottom line." Impacted how? 
The word, suffering from tremendous blandness, enjoys no true 
association in anyone's linguistic model. It would be more precise to 
say "The new competitor's business model _hurt_ our bottom line."

That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.

Jake Stetser
-- 
icongarden.com
Making good ideas grow || http://icongarden.com/





From james at designframe.com  Mon Aug  7 07:21:56 2000
From: james at designframe.com (James Spahr)
Date: Mon Aug  7 07:21:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple JavaScript question
In-Reply-To: <v04003a01b5b4332af96f@[158.152.26.28]>
Message-ID: <B5B4217A.1374A%james@designframe.com>

on 8/7/00 5:40 AM, Peter Small at peter at genps.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Wouldn't the return have to be included in an if... then... conditional -
> to direct the transfer to another URL only if true was returned by the
> confirm() function?


><script LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
>  <!--
>    function proceed2() {
>      return confirm("Are you sure?") ;
>    }
>  -->
></script>
>
><a href="http://www.citycent.com" onClick="return proceed2();">Click
>here</a>
>

Basically if onClick returns true, the browser will follow the standard
click behavior of the element (in this case you get to go to another page).
If the onClick event returns false - the browser does not execute the
standard click behavior.

So, as you know confirm return true or false, so all you really need to is
pass that value back to the <a> tag.

Make sense?

James.





From rwhite at edverify.com  Mon Aug  7 08:19:43 2000
From: rwhite at edverify.com (Ron White)
Date: Mon Aug  7 08:19:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)< spelt wrong BTW VERBIAGE
In-Reply-To: <001001bfffc2$154efe60$c0d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <LOELLPJBCANPIBAEEFLFAEOIDDAA.rwhite@edverify.com>

from Dictionary.com

func?tion?al (fngksh-nl)
adj.


1.Of or relating to a function.
2.Of, relating to, or indicating a mathematical function or functions.
3.Designed for or adapted to a particular function or use: functional
architecture.
4.Capable of performing; operative: a functional set of brakes.
Pathology. Involving functions rather than a physiological or structural
cause.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
function?ali?ty (-sh-nl-t) n.

function?al?ly adv.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of aardvark
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 12:19 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> What REALLY bugs me is that the word "impact" is
> used as a verb all over
> the bloody place. E.g., "E-business has impacted
> companies in a way that nothing else ever has."
>
> Darn it, "Impact" is a noun, *not* a verb.
> Something can have an impact,
> but it cannot be "impacted".

actually, it *is* a verb as well... according to my 1997
Webster's Universal College Dictionary...
- v.t.
#5. to drive or press closely or firmly into something
#6. to fill up; congest
#7. to collide with
#8. to have an impact or effect on; influence
- v.i.
#9. to make contact forcefully
#10. to have an impact

granted, it is often over-used, or even falls into the role
of a malapropism when folks don't know what they're saying
but do know buzzwords, but it is still a verb... there are
better ways to say most things that use 'impact' as a
verb...

btw, my pet-peeve:

	functionality

if anyone can find that in a dictionary, let me know... at
my last job *everyone* used it, but the best i could come up
with as an alternative was 'function' or 'functional
capability' along with some other variations...


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !





From apatrick at oracular.com  Mon Aug  7 08:31:54 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Mon Aug  7 08:31:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
References: <001301c00003$12a3cb00$c0d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <398EBB69.F5419456@oracular.com>

> dammit.  i was hoping it would never become a word, but it
> looks like it pulled an "ain't" on us...


Everyone will know you're a rube if you say "ain't".  One time I tried
to figure where that word came from and it eventually got me thinking
about this: What is won't a contraction of?  "Will not"?

-- 
_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From CDitty at email.usps.gov  Mon Aug  7 09:51:31 2000
From: CDitty at email.usps.gov (Christopher Ditty)
Date: Mon Aug  7 09:51:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] Shell scripting help
Message-ID: <0033000002091251000002L012*@MHS>

     Can anyone help me write a shell script for my unix box?  What I am
     trying to do is have a script connect to a mysql server and verify
     that it is up.  If it is not up then send and email to me.  Sound
     pretty simple, but I don't know how to even get started.

     Any pointers or help is appreciated.

     CDitty



From Tony at IdeaSystems.com  Mon Aug  7 10:22:58 2000
From: Tony at IdeaSystems.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 10:22:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Shell scripting help
In-Reply-To: <0033000002091251000002L012*@MHS>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807080702.021428c0@baratta.com>

At 08:44 AM 8/7/2000, you wrote:

>      Can anyone help me write a shell script for my unix box?  What I am
>      trying to do is have a script connect to a mysql server and verify
>      that it is up.  If it is not up then send and email to me.  Sound
>      pretty simple, but I don't know how to even get started.


do a mysql -V and cut and paste the answer to the $varExpected variable.
find your full path the mysql (whereis mysql) and cut and paste the answer 
into $varMySQLexe. find your Sendmail executable and put the full path into 
$varSendMail. lastly, put your email address into $varContact.

Might need a little debugging, but should get you started.

#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#

$varExpected = "mysql  Ver 9.32 Distrib 3.22.21, for pc-linux-gnu (i686)";
$varMySQLexe = "/usr/local/mysql/bin";
$varSendMail = "/usr/sbin/sendmail -t -n"
$varContact = "emergency at email.com"

$varFound = `$varMySQLexe/mysql -V`;
$varDate = `date`;

if ($varExpected != $varFound) {
         open (MAIL, "| $varSendMail") || print "cannot open mail program";
         print MAIL "To: $varEmailTech \n";
         print MAIL "From: mySQL_Cron_Job \n";
         print MAIL "Subject: Can not find mySQL daemon\n\n";
         print MAIL "At $varDate.\n\n";
         print MAIL "Cron found $varFound.\n\n";
         print MAIL "Cron expected $varExpected.\n\n";
         print MAIL " \n\n";
         close(MAIL) || print "mail pipe exited $?";
}

end'


----
Anthony Baratta
Isys Idea Systems

voice 510-452-4554
fax 510-452-4641




From Tony at IdeaSystems.com  Mon Aug  7 10:26:54 2000
From: Tony at IdeaSystems.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 10:26:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] Executing pkzip via VB scripting....
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807082211.021408c0@baratta.com>

Am I smoking crack or is there no way to execute an exe program like pkzip 
via a VB script??

I'm trying to zip up some stuff regularly via NT's AT service and one of my 
regular VBS admin scripts. But I can't find a way to execute an exe. Guess 
I should just write this in Perl for windows but I can't believe there is 
no way to do what I want. sheesh.


----
Anthony Baratta
Isys Idea Systems

voice 510-452-4554
fax 510-452-4641




From jaylard at equilon.com  Mon Aug  7 10:47:32 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Mon Aug  7 10:47:32 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple JavaScript question
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC1@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Peter Small wrote:
> The function confirm() returns true if OK pressed. It returns false if
> cancel is pressed.
> 
> Wouldn't the return have to be included in an if... then... conditional -
> to direct the transfer to another URL only if true was returned by the
> confirm() function?

	You could do an if...then statement, but it is unnecessary. If you
did use one, it would look like this (keep in mind that the confirm() dialog
returns true when "OK" is clicked, and false when "Cancel" is clicked):

if (true == confirm("Are you sure?")) { 
  return true ;
}
else {
  return false ;
}

	The if statement could also be written:

if (confirm("Are you sure?")) { 
...

	But either way, you can see that this is a bit redundant; so, the
more efficient way is simply to return the value of the confirm() dialog,
whichever it is:

return confirm("Are you sure?") ;

	Also, keep in mind that you use the return statement in two separate
places for two separate purposes: once in the function, as shown above, to
return the result of the confirm dialog back to event handler; and the
second time in the event handler itself to determine whether the <a>
element's default onclick behavior (to navigate to a link) actually takes
place (if a value of true is returned, it does; if a value of false is
returned, it does not, leaving you at the current page).
	You could also forego the function altogether, as Eric's example
showed:

<a href="http://www.citycent.com" onClick="return confirm('are you
sure');">Click here</a>

	The drawback to this approach is that if you want to apply this same
confirm() method to every link, you'll create extra coding and a lot of
extra work if you decide you want to edit the whole thing later. As a
general rule, it is better to place such code within a function.
	One potentially big caveat to the approach that I have offered is
that it will not work in JavaScript 1.0 browsers (Netscape 2, IE3), but
instead will throw an error. The ability to return false to cancel an
onclick event's action was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.

hth,
James Aylard
jaylard at equilon.com



From apatrick at oracular.com  Mon Aug  7 10:47:34 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Mon Aug  7 10:47:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Executing pkzip via VB scripting....
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807082211.021408c0@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <398EDB34.694CF1F2@oracular.com>

> Am I smoking crack or is there no way to execute an exe program like pkzip
> via a VB script??

Crack'll kill you.  ASP probably won't.

http://www.serverobjects.com/products.htm#free 

Check out ASPExec.  I'm using it to do what you are asking about.

_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From jaylard at equilon.com  Mon Aug  7 10:51:58 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Mon Aug  7 10:51:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Executing pkzip via VB scripting....
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC2@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Anthony,

> Am I smoking crack or is there no way to execute an exe program like pkzip

> via a VB script??

	I haven't worked with it much, but I think you could use the Windows
Script Host -- particularly its run() method. Somebody correct me if I'm
mistaken.

James Aylard
jaylard at equilon.com



From Kingorbitao at aol.com  Mon Aug  7 11:00:11 2000
From: Kingorbitao at aol.com (Kingorbitao at aol.com)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:00:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <84.91994ed.26c03679@aol.com>

lists at icongarden.com writes:

<< That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.

And that's what they are intended to be: vague, misleading terms that 
communicate something non-commital so the person using the buzzword cannot be 
fully responsible for the actuality being different from what the person 
thought was said.



From Tony at IdeaSystems.com  Mon Aug  7 11:03:41 2000
From: Tony at IdeaSystems.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:03:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] Executing pkzip via VB scripting....
In-Reply-To: <398EDB34.694CF1F2@oracular.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807082211.021408c0@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807085951.0214a480@baratta.com>

At 08:52 AM 8/7/2000, you wrote:
> > Am I smoking crack or is there no way to execute an exe program like pkzip
> > via a VB script??
>
>Crack'll kill you.  ASP probably won't.

I would like to campaign that ASP should have a Surgeon General's Warning 
label as being hazardous to your mental health. ;-)


>http://www.serverobjects.com/products.htm#free
>
>Check out ASPExec.  I'm using it to do what you are asking about.

I just found that, via 15 Seconds. Looks like it what I need - too bad 
Microsoft can't figure out what I need. Thanks.

----
Anthony Baratta
Isys Idea Systems

voice 510-452-4554
fax 510-452-4641




From jay at weberrific.org  Mon Aug  7 11:27:18 2000
From: jay at weberrific.org (Jay Turley)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:27:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?
Message-ID: <200008071625.MAA17539@server5000.net>

Okay, evolters, I could use some help.

A developer I work with is creating an ASP web application that by 
necessity creates some files during a user's session. We want to delete 
these files when the session ends. Currently, his code looks like:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="VBScript" RUNAT="Server">

Sub Session_OnStart

	Set Session("FSOMain") = Server.CreateObject
("Scripting.FileSystemObject")

End Sub

Sub Session_OnEnd

	Session("FSOMain").DeleteFolder "C:\InetPub\wwwroot\Leads 
Site\printdocs\Ahoy"
	Session("FSOMain").DeleteFile "C:\InetPub\wwwroot\Leads 
Site\printdocs\smalllabel.rtf"

End Sub

The paths are of course hard-coded for our test case. The problem is that 
it just doesn't work. When session.Abandon is called, the session ends; 
files are still there. 

However, if the code is cut and pasted into an intermediate file 
(delPage.asp), it works just duckily.

Any ideas, oh mighty ASP warriors?

- Jay Turley ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.weberrific.org
 "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"



From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 11:35:40 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:35:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] Domain redirection
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806222317.00b47750@203.197.60.113> <398E4F46.A32A15DE@Baratta.com>
Message-ID: <003301c0008d$24eeea80$b8ee00cf@mwardenlaptop>

> Madhu Menon wrote:
> >
> > I run an NT server with IIS.
> >
> > I have a domain, somedomain.com running on the server
> >
>
> Add all the permutations of the domain to the host headers on the Site
Properties and
> you can have both URLs pointing to the same site.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants actual redirection, so that
only http://somedomain.com shows up in the address bar. Usually, this is for
branding-type stuff (just in case you were saying "what the...?"). I don't
know the proceedure for this, but one way could be simply to have a script
on the default.asp page in the root directory which simply sniffed and
redirected (like you mentioned). Really, having this on every page won't get
you much. Someone would have to type in
http://www.somedomain.com/mydir/mypage.asp. Your call. Someone on thelist
can probably tell you how to do this a better way. Yahoo! does this. If you
type in http://sdflja.yahoo.com, it will redirect to http://www.yahoo.com.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 11:41:44 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:41:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Shell scripting help
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807080702.021428c0@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c0008d$fb132ae0$b8ee00cf@mwardenlaptop>

Chris,

For future shell scripting needs, I thought I'd let you know that you can
use PHP to write shell scripts. Since you know your stuff with PHP, you
might be able to write it yourself.

Rock on,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Baratta <Tony at IdeaSystems.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Shell scripting help


> At 08:44 AM 8/7/2000, you wrote:
>
> >      Can anyone help me write a shell script for my unix box?  What I am
> >      trying to do is have a script connect to a mysql server and verify
> >      that it is up.  If it is not up then send and email to me.  Sound
> >      pretty simple, but I don't know how to even get started.
>
>
> do a mysql -V and cut and paste the answer to the $varExpected variable.
> find your full path the mysql (whereis mysql) and cut and paste the answer
> into $varMySQLexe. find your Sendmail executable and put the full path
into
> $varSendMail. lastly, put your email address into $varContact.
>
> Might need a little debugging, but should get you started.
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> #
> #
>
> $varExpected = "mysql  Ver 9.32 Distrib 3.22.21, for pc-linux-gnu (i686)";
> $varMySQLexe = "/usr/local/mysql/bin";
> $varSendMail = "/usr/sbin/sendmail -t -n"
> $varContact = "emergency at email.com"
>
> $varFound = `$varMySQLexe/mysql -V`;
> $varDate = `date`;
>
> if ($varExpected != $varFound) {
>          open (MAIL, "| $varSendMail") || print "cannot open mail
program";
>          print MAIL "To: $varEmailTech \n";
>          print MAIL "From: mySQL_Cron_Job \n";
>          print MAIL "Subject: Can not find mySQL daemon\n\n";
>          print MAIL "At $varDate.\n\n";
>          print MAIL "Cron found $varFound.\n\n";
>          print MAIL "Cron expected $varExpected.\n\n";
>          print MAIL " \n\n";
>          close(MAIL) || print "mail pipe exited $?";
> }
>
> end'
>
>
> ----
> Anthony Baratta
> Isys Idea Systems
>
> voice 510-452-4554
> fax 510-452-4641
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 11:55:20 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:55:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?
References: <200008071625.MAA17539@server5000.net>
Message-ID: <005501c0008f$e76bd120$b8ee00cf@mwardenlaptop>

Scott Dexter can confirm this, but you can not delete files on session end
(and I believe the same is true for on application end). And, I don't really
know how good it is to store an instance of the Scripting.FileSystemObject
object in the session (if anything, I'd think you'd store it in the
application object).

What you could do is write a script that runs once a day and deletes
files/folders that haven't been modified for 60 minutes or whatever you
decide.

Let me know if this helps. If it doesn't, explain what the files are and
what you are trying to do and maybe we can help more.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Turley <jay at weberrific.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?


> Okay, evolters, I could use some help.
>
> A developer I work with is creating an ASP web application that by
> necessity creates some files during a user's session. We want to delete
> these files when the session ends. Currently, his code looks like:
>
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="VBScript" RUNAT="Server">
>
> Sub Session_OnStart
>
> Set Session("FSOMain") = Server.CreateObject
> ("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
>
> End Sub
>
> Sub Session_OnEnd
>
> Session("FSOMain").DeleteFolder "C:\InetPub\wwwroot\Leads
> Site\printdocs\Ahoy"
> Session("FSOMain").DeleteFile "C:\InetPub\wwwroot\Leads
> Site\printdocs\smalllabel.rtf"
>
> End Sub
>
> The paths are of course hard-coded for our test case. The problem is that
> it just doesn't work. When session.Abandon is called, the session ends;
> files are still there.
>
> However, if the code is cut and pasted into an intermediate file
> (delPage.asp), it works just duckily.





From Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com  Mon Aug  7 11:58:37 2000
From: Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com (Chris Danek)
Date: Mon Aug  7 11:58:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
In-Reply-To: <84.91994ed.26c03679@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIAKAHKFCNLGDMMFOGELNMCAA.Chris.Danek@cmgisolutions.com>

Not entirely. Buzzwords give flesh to new ideas that cannot be encapsulated
shortly and conveniently otherwise.

cd

> << That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.
>
> And that's what they are intended to be: vague, misleading terms that
> communicate something non-commital so the person using the
> buzzword cannot be
> fully responsible for the actuality being different from what the person
> thought was said.




From support at messagelabs.com  Mon Aug  7 12:05:45 2000
From: support at messagelabs.com (support at messagelabs.com)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:05:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised code
Message-ID: <20000807170258.30955.qmail@server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net>

The MessageLabs Virus Control Centre discovered a possible 
virus or unauthorised code (such as a joke program or trojan)
in an email sent by you. 

Please read this whole email carefully. It explains what has 
happened to your email, which suspected virus has been caught, 
and what to do if you need help.


------------------------------------------------------------
Some details about the infected message
------------------------------------------------------------

To help identify the email:

The message was titled 'Re: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?'
The message date was Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:52:10 -0400
The message identifier was <005501c0008f$e76bd120$b8ee00cf at mwardenlaptop>
The message recipients were 
    einhorda at apci.com


To help identify the virus:

Scanner 1 (Skeptic) reported the following:

mailid = 0
mailid = 415746_*
Skeptic searching for 18 viruses
Checking /var/qmail/queue/split/0/ for 415746_*
>>> Possible Virus 'HLL.Worm' variant found in '415746_1MT_message.txt'. Heuristics score: 742


The message was diverted into the virus holding pen on
mail server server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net (id 415746_965667775)
and will be held for 30 days before being destroyed.


------------------------------------------------------------
What should you do now?
------------------------------------------------------------

If you sent the email from a corporate network, you should first 
contact your local Helpdesk or System Administrator for advice. 
They will be able to help you disinfect your workstation.

If you sent the email from a personal or home account, you will 
need to disinfect your computer yourself. To do this you will 
need an anti-virus program. We suggest using one of the leading 
industry anti-virus packages such as McAfee, F-Secure or Cybersoft, 
which cost ?15-?30 per copy. 
 

------------------------------------------------------------
Getting more help
------------------------------------------------------------

You may like to read the Support FAQs at 
http://www.messagelabs.com/support/FAQs.htm 
These will answer many of the most common queries. 

If you believe this message to be a false alarm or you require 
further assistance, you can email MessageLabs Support at:-

    support at messagelabs.com

or contact MessageLabs Helpdesk by telephone on:-

       +44 (0) 1285 884466

Please quote the following Virus Pen ID when contacting Support.
<<< mail server server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net (id 415746_965667775) >>>


_____________________________________________________________________
This message has been checked for all known viruses by the 
MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit
http://www.messagelabs.com/stats.asp




From dcody at oracular.com  Mon Aug  7 12:10:11 2000
From: dcody at oracular.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:10:11 2000
Subject: [Fwd: Re[2]: [thelist] Shell scripting help]
Message-ID: <398EDFA0.8233EB59@oracular.com>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re[2]: [thelist] Shell scripting help
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:53:25 -0500
From: Christopher Ditty <CDitty at email.usps.gov>
To: thelist-admin <thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org>


     Thank you sir.  I will play with this tonight.  Don't suppose you
have
     any other little scripts that you might want to share that would
make
     life easier would you?  :)

     CDitty

     thanks again.


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: [thelist] Shell scripting help
Author:  thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org at INTERNET
Date:    8/7/00 11:33 AM


At 08:44 AM 8/7/2000, you wrote:

>      Can anyone help me write a shell script for my unix box?  What I am
>      trying to do is have a script connect to a mysql server and verify
>      that it is up.  If it is not up then send and email to me.  Sound
>      pretty simple, but I don't know how to even get started.


do a mysql -V and cut and paste the answer to the $varExpected variable.
find your full path the mysql (whereis mysql) and cut and paste the
answer
into $varMySQLexe. find your Sendmail executable and put the full path
into
$varSendMail. lastly, put your email address into $varContact.

Might need a little debugging, but should get you started.

#!/usr/bin/perl
#
#

$varExpected = "mysql  Ver 9.32 Distrib 3.22.21, for pc-linux-gnu
(i686)";
$varMySQLexe = "/usr/local/mysql/bin";
$varSendMail = "/usr/sbin/sendmail -t -n"
$varContact = "emergency at email.com"

$varFound = `$varMySQLexe/mysql -V`;
$varDate = `date`;

if ($varExpected != $varFound) {
         open (MAIL, "| $varSendMail") || print "cannot open mail
program";
         print MAIL "To: $varEmailTech \n";
         print MAIL "From: mySQL_Cron_Job \n";
         print MAIL "Subject: Can not find mySQL daemon\n\n";
         print MAIL "At $varDate.\n\n";
         print MAIL "Cron found $varFound.\n\n";
         print MAIL "Cron expected $varExpected.\n\n";
         print MAIL " \n\n";
         close(MAIL) || print "mail pipe exited $?";
}

end'


----
Anthony Baratta
Isys Idea Systems

voice 510-452-4554
fax 510-452-4641


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From dcody at oracular.com  Mon Aug  7 12:10:23 2000
From: dcody at oracular.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:10:23 2000
Subject: [Fwd: Re[2]: [thelist] Shell scripting help]
Message-ID: <398EDFAC.14EA7ADD@oracular.com>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re[2]: [thelist] Shell scripting help
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:01:44 -0500
From: Christopher Ditty <CDitty at email.usps.gov>
To: thelist-admin <thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org>


     I did think about doing that, but a thought came to mind that PHP
     Scripts can't do things like run the rc program.  (can they?)

     This is mainly for my mysql problem.  I am going to play with the
     little script that Anthony sent and see if it will restart the
server
     if it is down.  I HOPE that this will work.

     Chris


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: [thelist] Shell scripting help
Author:  thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org at INTERNET
Date:    8/7/00 12:52 PM


Chris,

For future shell scripting needs, I thought I'd let you know that you
can
use PHP to write shell scripts. Since you know your stuff with PHP, you
might be able to write it yourself.

Rock on,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Baratta <Tony at IdeaSystems.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Shell scripting help


> At 08:44 AM 8/7/2000, you wrote:
>
> >      Can anyone help me write a shell script for my unix box?  What I am
> >      trying to do is have a script connect to a mysql server and verify
> >      that it is up.  If it is not up then send and email to me.  Sound
> >      pretty simple, but I don't know how to even get started.
>
>
> do a mysql -V and cut and paste the answer to the $varExpected variable.
> find your full path the mysql (whereis mysql) and cut and paste the answer
> into $varMySQLexe. find your Sendmail executable and put the full path
into
> $varSendMail. lastly, put your email address into $varContact.
>
> Might need a little debugging, but should get you started.
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> #
> #
>
> $varExpected = "mysql  Ver 9.32 Distrib 3.22.21, for pc-linux-gnu (i686)";
> $varMySQLexe = "/usr/local/mysql/bin";
> $varSendMail = "/usr/sbin/sendmail -t -n"
> $varContact = "emergency at email.com"
>
> $varFound = `$varMySQLexe/mysql -V`;
> $varDate = `date`;
>
> if ($varExpected != $varFound) {
>          open (MAIL, "| $varSendMail") || print "cannot open mail
program";
>          print MAIL "To: $varEmailTech \n";
>          print MAIL "From: mySQL_Cron_Job \n";
>          print MAIL "Subject: Can not find mySQL daemon\n\n";
>          print MAIL "At $varDate.\n\n";
>          print MAIL "Cron found $varFound.\n\n";
>          print MAIL "Cron expected $varExpected.\n\n";
>          print MAIL " \n\n";
>          close(MAIL) || print "mail pipe exited $?";
> }
>
> end'
>
>
> ----
> Anthony Baratta
> Isys Idea Systems
>
> voice 510-452-4554
> fax 510-452-4641
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From peter at genps.demon.co.uk  Mon Aug  7 12:12:16 2000
From: peter at genps.demon.co.uk (Peter Small)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:12:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple JavaScript question
In-Reply-To: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC1@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>
Message-ID: <v04003a0cb5b496a558f6@[158.152.26.28]>

Thanks James for that excellent description of the way this function works.
It solved several mysteries for me.

peter
http://www.avatarnets.com

>Peter Small wrote:
>> The function confirm() returns true if OK pressed. It returns false if
>> cancel is pressed.
>>
>> Wouldn't the return have to be included in an if... then... conditional -
>> to direct the transfer to another URL only if true was returned by the
>> confirm() function?
>
>	You could do an if...then statement, but it is unnecessary. If you
>did use one, it would look like this (keep in mind that the confirm() dialog
>returns true when "OK" is clicked, and false when "Cancel" is clicked):
>
>if (true == confirm("Are you sure?")) {
>  return true ;
>}
>else {
>  return false ;
>}
>
>	The if statement could also be written:
>
>if (confirm("Are you sure?")) {
>...
>
>	But either way, you can see that this is a bit redundant; so, the
>more efficient way is simply to return the value of the confirm() dialog,
>whichever it is:
>
>return confirm("Are you sure?") ;
>
>	Also, keep in mind that you use the return statement in two separate
>places for two separate purposes: once in the function, as shown above, to
>return the result of the confirm dialog back to event handler; and the
>second time in the event handler itself to determine whether the <a>
>element's default onclick behavior (to navigate to a link) actually takes
>place (if a value of true is returned, it does; if a value of false is
>returned, it does not, leaving you at the current page).
>	You could also forego the function altogether, as Eric's example
>showed:
>
><a href="http://www.citycent.com" onClick="return confirm('are you
>sure');">Click here</a>
>
>	The drawback to this approach is that if you want to apply this same
>confirm() method to every link, you'll create extra coding and a lot of
>extra work if you decide you want to edit the whole thing later. As a
>general rule, it is better to place such code within a function.
>	One potentially big caveat to the approach that I have offered is
>that it will not work in JavaScript 1.0 browsers (Netscape 2, IE3), but
>instead will throw an error. The ability to return false to cancel an
>onclick event's action was implemented in JavaScript 1.1.
>
>hth,
>James Aylard
>jaylard at equilon.com
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !






From jimmi at u.washington.edu  Mon Aug  7 12:16:57 2000
From: jimmi at u.washington.edu (Jim Montgomery)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:16:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] crit requested
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.21.0008071008460.63532-100000@dante54.u.washington.edu>

I'm looking for criticism of an early draft for the interface and content
layout and typography of:

http://staff.washington.edu/jimmont/dev/

Audience will be viewing at millions of colors, [ 1024x768, 1600x1200 ]
res. Quick access to lots of info and tools is the goal.

thanks much, and much thanks

-- Jim





From Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk  Mon Aug  7 12:21:34 2000
From: Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk (Jagjeet Hayer)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:21:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Obtaining value from Select box in Javascript
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807082211.021408c0@softwareag.com>
Message-ID: <001801c00093$b0d6bef0$6ae6bd9d@softwareag.co.uk>

Hi all,

I hope someone can spot any obvious errors I may be making here.  I would
have thought it straightforward to obtain the option value from a Select box
but I can't seem to get it at all.

This is my test code to try and get it working.  I have tried several
permutations as you can see without success.

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<script language="JavaScript">
function getOptionValue(obj)
{
	var index0, index1;


	if (obj.name == "select1")
	{
		index0 = document.form1.select1.selectedIndex;

		alert("index0 is : " + index0);
		alert("test1 is : " +
document.form1.select2[document.form1.select1.selectedIndex].value);
		alert("test2 is : " + document.form1.select2.options
[document.form1.select1.selectedIndex].value);
		alert("test3 is : " + document.form1.select1.options[index0].value);

	}
}
</script>
</HEAD>

<BODY>
<form name=form1>
<SELECT id=select1 name=select1 onChange="getOptionValue(this);">
<option>0</option>
<option>1</option>
<option>2</option>
<option>3</option>
<option>4</option>
</SELECT>

<SELECT id=select2 name=select2>
<option>00</option>
<option>01</option>
<option>02</option>
<option>03</option>
<option>04</option>
</SELECT>

</form>

</BODY>
</HTML>


I can sleep peacefully tonight if anyone can help.

Thanks,

Jag.




From djc at five2one.org  Mon Aug  7 12:24:43 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:24:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised code
References: <20000807170258.30955.qmail@server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net>
Message-ID: <398EE73E.3DBA7294@five2one.org>

Erg. Disregard this people, and don't be alarmed. There is no virus or
anything close, its a good example of a gone wrong.. The mail id that
thier server assigns to every mail that comes in to it appears to have
matched a (too simple imo) search on a known virus signature.

Again, nothing to be worried about, just a random thing here..

Now if only I could filter out annoying auto-replies like this as well
as the attachments/virus'/etc themselves ;)

.djc.

support at messagelabs.com wrote:
> 
> The MessageLabs Virus Control Centre discovered a possible
> virus or unauthorised code (such as a joke program or trojan)
> in an email sent by you.



From Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com  Mon Aug  7 12:30:56 2000
From: Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com (Chris Danek)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:30:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised code
In-Reply-To: <20000807170258.30955.qmail@server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIAKAHKFCNLGDMMFOKELOMCAA.Chris.Danek@cmgisolutions.com>

Guess we shouldn't include any VB in our posts, hm? :)

<tip author="Chris Danek" email="cdanek at bdsinc.com">
	Document all your miniprojects. Quick fixes tend to take up much more time
than most people account for. When cataloging what work you've accomplished
in the past day/week/month/project, the finished todo lists are invaluable.
If you use ultraedit, make a favorite file called todo.txt and put it in a
personal folder. Access it in ultraedit with alt-f,v,t,enter.
</tip>

Chris Danek - Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com
Consultant - CMGI Solutions
646-342-6663


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of
> support at messagelabs.com
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 1:03 PM
> To: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org; mwarden at odyssey-design.com;
> thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised
> code
>
>
> The MessageLabs Virus Control Centre discovered a possible
> virus or unauthorised code (such as a joke program or trojan)
> in an email sent by you.
>
> Please read this whole email carefully. It explains what has
> happened to your email, which suspected virus has been caught,
> and what to do if you need help.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Some details about the infected message
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To help identify the email:
>
> The message was titled 'Re: [thelist] Deleting server files at
> session end?'
> The message date was Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:52:10 -0400
> The message identifier was <005501c0008f$e76bd120$b8ee00cf at mwardenlaptop>
> The message recipients were
>     einhorda at apci.com
>
>
> To help identify the virus:
>
> Scanner 1 (Skeptic) reported the following:
>
> mailid = 0
> mailid = 415746_*
> Skeptic searching for 18 viruses
> Checking /var/qmail/queue/split/0/ for 415746_*
> >>> Possible Virus 'HLL.Worm' variant found in
> '415746_1MT_message.txt'. Heuristics score: 742
>
>
> The message was diverted into the virus holding pen on
> mail server server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net (id 415746_965667775)
> and will be held for 30 days before being destroyed.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> What should you do now?
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you sent the email from a corporate network, you should first
> contact your local Helpdesk or System Administrator for advice.
> They will be able to help you disinfect your workstation.
>
> If you sent the email from a personal or home account, you will
> need to disinfect your computer yourself. To do this you will
> need an anti-virus program. We suggest using one of the leading
> industry anti-virus packages such as McAfee, F-Secure or Cybersoft,
> which cost ?15-?30 per copy.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Getting more help
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You may like to read the Support FAQs at
> http://www.messagelabs.com/support/FAQs.htm
> These will answer many of the most common queries.
>
> If you believe this message to be a false alarm or you require
> further assistance, you can email MessageLabs Support at:-
>
>     support at messagelabs.com
>
> or contact MessageLabs Helpdesk by telephone on:-
>
>        +44 (0) 1285 884466
>
> Please quote the following Virus Pen ID when contacting Support.
> <<< mail server server-14.tower-4.starlabs.net (id 415746_965667775) >>>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This message has been checked for all known viruses by the
> MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com/stats.asp
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From aileen at stonebikini.com  Mon Aug  7 12:47:44 2000
From: aileen at stonebikini.com (Aileen Wrothwell)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:47:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: image tiling
References: <20000806192238.23056.qmail@web219.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003001c00097$d8985ee0$0200000a@aileen>

Hi Stephen,

Apparently background image tiling is just an occupational hazard.  A lot of
the advice I received suggested that I counsel my client to drop the
background image idea completely (tiling problems, slow page loading time),
but failing that (I agreed with the responses, but she just wouldn't go for
it) the solution that worked best for me was to increase the image size to
1200 x 1200 (or as large as the linked values in Photoshop would allow me to
make the second number if the first was 1200).  When the JPEG options window
popped up, I saved it at "1" image quality because I wanted the file to be
as small as possible, so that it would load quickly.  The image quality was
not visibly different when I compared it with the same image saved at 10,
but the page loading time was improved by an unbelievable amount.  It also
helped that the image was an abstract oil painting in with soft lines and
soft hues of a light color.  I don't typically save web images at 10, but I
wanted to test image quality and loading time.  Hope that helps some.  Best
regards, Aileen.

Aileen Wrothwell
Stone Bikini
E-mail: aileen at stonebikini.com
Web site: http://www.stonebikini.com

----- Original Message -----
From: thomas stephen <stephen_media at yahoo.com>
To: <aileen at stonebikini.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: image tiling


> hello,
>
> i like to know how to avoid image tiling problem
>
> stephen
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com/
>




From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 12:52:21 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:52:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Obtaining value from Select box in Javascript
References: <001801c00093$b0d6bef0$6ae6bd9d@softwareag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <008d01c00097$de312bc0$b8ee00cf@mwardenlaptop>

You're gonna smack yourself...

> This is my test code to try and get it working.  I have tried several
> permutations as you can see without success.
>
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <script language="JavaScript">
> function getOptionValue(obj)
> {
> var index0, index1;
>
>
> if (obj.name == "select1")
> {
> index0 = document.form1.select1.selectedIndex;
>
> alert("index0 is : " + index0);
> alert("test1 is : " +
> document.form1.select2[document.form1.select1.selectedIndex].value);

this should be:
document.form1.select2.options[document.form1.select1.selectedIndex].value);

> alert("test2 is : " + document.form1.select2.options
> [document.form1.select1.selectedIndex].value);
> alert("test3 is : " + document.form1.select1.options[index0].value);
>
> }
> }
> </script>
> </HEAD>
>
> <BODY>
> <form name=form1>
> <SELECT id=select1 name=select1 onChange="getOptionValue(this);">
> <option>0</option>
> <option>1</option>
> <option>2</option>
> <option>3</option>
> <option>4</option>
> </SELECT>
>
> <SELECT id=select2 name=select2>
> <option>00</option>
> <option>01</option>
> <option>02</option>
> <option>03</option>
> <option>04</option>
> </SELECT>
>
> </form>
>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>

You have no value attributes in your option tags. So, it's working, but you
can't tell.

Oh, oh, please stop banging your head. You're gonna dent your desk up.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Mon Aug  7 12:56:50 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:56:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Javascript question
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008071338240.30182-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

Oh Wise Javascript Gurus,

I'm trying to put a JS-based search feature on a site of mine.  I got the
script to work just fine as it is (it's a script that I got from
javascriptsource.com).  However, I was hoping to take it a step further,
and that's where I'm running into a snag.  The script basically opens a
new window and creates a page on the fly.  However, is there anyway for me
to tell the script that it has to output to a specific file that I
created, rather than it creating its own?
I know I can achieve the effect I want through the use of frames, but I'd
rather not go that route.  Instead, I was hoping to output to a specific
file and use SSI to show the output inside the rest of the document. 
Perhaps there's another way of doing this, (heck!  I don't even know if
SSI will work for this purpose if I CAN get the desired result with the
javascript!) and I welcome suggestions.
This is where I'm at now, though...

Thanks a lot!
Dan




From jay at weberrific.org  Mon Aug  7 12:58:21 2000
From: jay at weberrific.org (Jay Turley)
Date: Mon Aug  7 12:58:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Obtaining value from Select box in Javascript
Message-ID: <200008071756.NAA26622@server5000.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jagjeet Hayer [mailto:Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk]
>
> Hi all,
> 
> I hope someone can spot any obvious errors I may be making 
> here.  I would

Your options don't have values in them:

<SELECT id=select1 name=select1 onChange="getOptionValue(this);">
<option value=0>0</option>
<option value=1>1</option>
<option value=2>2</option>
<option value=3>3</option>
<option value=4>4</option>
</SELECT>

<SELECT id=select2 name=select2>
<option value="00">00</option>
<option value="01">01</option>
<option value="02">02</option>
<option value="03">03</option>
<option value="04">04</option>
</SELECT>

will fix ya right up.

- Jay Turley ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.weberrific.org
 "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"



From Casselk at go.com  Mon Aug  7 13:04:04 2000
From: Casselk at go.com (Cassel Kroll)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:04:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
Message-ID: <7522444.965671200123.JavaMail.Casselk@gomailjtp04>

I've been working on a new site and looking at other sites for color inspiration... I'm observing more and more sites are utilizing non"Web Safe"colors.  Has the school of thought on the standard 216 changed? Are browsers agreeing on other color codes?   Any otger thoughts explaining this trend?  

___________________________________________________
GO Network Mail                                    
Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com





From Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk  Mon Aug  7 13:07:10 2000
From: Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk (Jagjeet Hayer)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:07:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] Obtaining value from Select box in Javascript
In-Reply-To: <398EDFA0.8233EB59@softwareag.com>
Message-ID: <001901c0009a$130a4e60$6ae6bd9d@softwareag.co.uk>

Please disregard previous message.

It was just another user error.  I forgot to add the value to the Value tag
for each <Option>.

Going home to rest overworked mind,

Jag.




From david_shadovitz at xontech.com  Mon Aug  7 13:13:23 2000
From: david_shadovitz at xontech.com (David Shadovitz)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:13:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] MS Windows NT development book?
Message-ID: <398EFDBF.A551B947@xontech.com>

I think there is a book which describes the development of Windows NT at
Microsoft.  Anyone know the name?
Thanks.
-David




From asquier at exobox.com  Mon Aug  7 13:20:08 2000
From: asquier at exobox.com (Adam Squier)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:20:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
Message-ID: <6BD7B304535FD411A786006097593081018FD5@banana.exobox.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cassel Kroll [mailto:Casselk at go.com]
> Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
 
 Has the school of thought 
> on the standard 216 changed?

Well, sort of. It seems that lots of folks seem to think it's unnecessary to
cater to the 216 palette as most computers can display millions (24-bit) of
colors.

The problem with this thinking is that pretty soon, most browsing will be
done on handhelds, appliances, phones, and other small devices (well, maybe
not "most" but a good chunk). Most of these will have 8-bit displays, if
they're color at all.

So I think it's a good idea to know your audience. But that's just my
opinion. ;-)

--Adam



From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  7 13:36:29 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:36:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
In-Reply-To: <7522444.965671200123.JavaMail.Casselk@gomailjtp04>
Message-ID: <200008071834.LAA03207@smtp3-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: Cassel Kroll <Casselk at go.com>
>
> I've been working on a new site and looking at other sites for color
> inspiration... I'm observing more and more sites are utilizing non"Web
> Safe"colors.  Has the school of thought on the standard 216 changed?
> Are browsers agreeing on other color codes?   Any otger thoughts
> explaining this trend?  

depends on your audience... in fact, i know my audience quite well, 
so i can tell which way to go... if you are at all curious, check out 
my article "Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part II" at 
http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2297 ...

i found that the average user to my company site has a bit-depth of 
16-bit... since the web-safe palette tends to fall apart for 16-bit 
users, i don't worry so much about web-safe - in certain places...

for instance, the screen captures on our client pages, as well as 
some other content on the site, uses an adaptive palette, and 
doesn't worry so much about the 216...

but the main colors of the site (the large flat fields of color) use a 
web-safe color... in fact, whenever i use a large field of color, i still 
shoot for a web-safe color...

it really depends on your audience and how you choose to build for 
them...



From martin at members.evolt.org  Mon Aug  7 13:41:33 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (martin burns)
Date: Mon Aug  7 13:41:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
Message-ID: <398F025D.001A2B.00378@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>

Adam wrote:

>  Has the school of thought 
> > on the standard 216 changed?
> 
> Well, sort of. It seems that lots of folks seem to think it's
> unnecessary to
> cater to the 216 palette as most computers can display millions (24-bit)
> of
> colors.

Also many sites are designed by people who run their fast machines at millions of colours and 1600px resolution, forgetting that their audience ain't all like that.

Many PCs come from the factory at 8bit 640x480, and many users have nfi how to change this.

The designers in question will no doubt wibble on about 'the brand', forgetting that they can't do Pantone online.

> The problem with this thinking is that pretty soon, most browsing will
> be
> done on handhelds, appliances, phones, and other small devices (well,
> maybe
> not "most" but a good chunk). Most of these will have 8-bit displays, if
> they're color at all.
+1 on this

Cheers
Martin



From sgd at ti3.com  Mon Aug  7 14:28:46 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Mon Aug  7 14:28:46 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: image tiling
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB3211172012462@gate.ti3.com>

a trick I saw on the Range Rover site was to progessively blur the right and
bottom portions of the image; it helps with the jpeg compression (smaller
file size) and may even make the image look better...

sgd
--
think safely

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aileen Wrothwell [mailto:aileen at stonebikini.com]

> 1200 x 1200 (or as large as the linked values in Photoshop 
> would allow me to
> make the second number if the first was 1200).  When the JPEG 
> options window
> popped up, I saved it at "1" image quality because I wanted 



From dascott at wam.umd.edu  Mon Aug  7 14:31:11 2000
From: dascott at wam.umd.edu (David S Gray)
Date: Mon Aug  7 14:31:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple JavaScript question
In-Reply-To: <v04003a0cb5b496a558f6@[158.152.26.28]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008071425420.9252-100000@rac1.wam.umd.edu>

if you want to make it even more complicated, you could do:

onclick="confirm('are you sure?')?doStuff():return false;"

of course assuming that your (captive) audience has javascript, otherwise
the click will ignore your awesome code and go to the <a href="" you
specified :(

HTH

 -dave


> >	But either way, you can see that this is a bit redundant; so, the
> >more efficient way is simply to return the value of the confirm() dialog,
> >whichever it is:
> >
> >return confirm("Are you sure?") ;
> >




From ervsplace at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  7 14:59:56 2000
From: ervsplace at hotmail.com (Dan Shafer)
Date: Mon Aug  7 14:59:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] Newbie Question
Message-ID: <F321LtosJ3Ih7jtrSBy000001d2@hotmail.com>

I apologize for the simplicity of this question but can't seem to locate the
answer myself.
How can one set a link to a ftp site that would enable the user to browse 
the
directory.
TIA
Dan
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  7 15:24:33 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:24:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: thelist  OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <LAW-F217fTjuwWvyFet0000868a@hotmail.com>

Hi all,

The only place I've heard the terms "impacted" and "verbage" is working for 
web design firms. In my experience, these terms are used more by marketing 
types, but maybe that's just an isolated experience.  One of the firms I was 
working for actually used these terms on their website. When I pointed out 
that it wasn't proper English to use them (and probably looked 
unprofessional to clients), the VPs decided to use them anyway.

I've got to say that they annoy the hell out of me. I agree that impacted 
(as used to describe an impact of something on something else) is a vague 
way of describing an impact, good or bad. The proper use of the term 
describes impacted wisdom teeth (not exactly a positive association). 
Verbage annoys me because it is just a mispronunciation of verbiage, a wordy 
term in any case. If you're going to be wordy and pretentious, you should 
know the words you're using.

My 2 cents.

Tara Cleveland

<tip type=I can never think of anything very good>
If you are a freelancer or a temp (for Aquent like me), and work in 
different companies it can be really handy to put a page on your personal 
website with all of the resources that you might need so you can access it 
online. For example a 216-colour palette, a link to evolt, a link to 
javascript libraries, a link to your invoice form/timesheets etc.
</tip>

From:
                 "Chris Danek" <Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com>
Reply-To:
                 thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:
                 <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Subject:
                 RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Date:
                 Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:02:35 -0400


Not entirely. Buzzwords give flesh to new ideas that cannot be
encapsulated
shortly and conveniently otherwise.

cd

><< That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.
>
>And that's what they are intended to be: vague, misleading
terms that
>communicate something non-commital so the person using the
>buzzword cannot be
>fully responsible for the actuality being different from what
the person
>thought was said.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  7 15:37:44 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:37:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re:  the Aquent salary guides
Message-ID: <LAW-F262kQA5PHyjzw300001b72@hotmail.com>

Hi all,

I know I'm a little late (like a few centuries late) in adding to this 
discussion, but oh well...

This is just a little addition to the discussions around the Aquent salary 
guides. The reason the hourly rate and the salaried rate is so different has 
partially to do with Aquent's own fees. If they hire someone out hourly they 
pay the worker a little more than a salaried job, but the charge the client 
company extra for all their added administration costs (believe me the 
workers don't see wages like that! $120 per hour, I wish). The salaried rate 
is a guideline for when Aquent places a worker permanently (therefore they 
have less administration costs but they still retain about 30% of the quoted 
salary).  I once went to an interview for a permanent placement and the 
salary I would get would be a little less than the hourly rate I receive,  
around 55-60K Canadian, but Aquent  would charge the company more like 
75-85K.

The thing that gets me is that the numbers are the same for Canadian and 
American dollars, even though the American dollar is worth waaayyyy more. 
The 55K Canadian salary (worth more like 35K American) would be 55K American 
if I lived just over the border. Of course, I'd rather live here, but I wish 
we got paid on par. It always boggles my mind how much more American 
salaries are.

Just in case anyone was wondering.

Tara Cleveland

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  7 15:46:51 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:46:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
Message-ID: <LAW-F22692bXCH5n00z0000440e@hotmail.com>

Hi all (again),

So, I have this problem...  My fiancee and I share a home computer (Mac), 
when he got pissed at me cluttering the desktop, I set up another user 
setting for me.

Now when I try to open Dreamweaver (the same copy that I can open if I'm 
logged on as him), it asks me to enter a serial number. It tells me that I 
have to enter a valid serial number when I use the same serial number as the 
one on my fiancee's set up.

This is the same copy of Dreamweaver, on the same hard drive, just used 
under a different login.

Has anyone else had a similar problem?  Is there any way to fix it so I 
don't have to keep logging on as him when I want to use Dreamweaver?

Tara Cleveland
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From chris at fuseware.com  Mon Aug  7 15:50:37 2000
From: chris at fuseware.com (Chris Evans)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:50:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Borders and CSS
Message-ID: <000801c000b0$dfb04850$b4be170a@limited.com>

I am creating a menu system using DHTML, and am getting a one px difference
between my border and my background color in Netscape.  This seems to be a
bug with the implementation of Netscape's CSS.  I have seen borders in other
menu systems, but can't seem to figure out the workaround.  Does anybody
have any ideas?

Chris Evans
chris at fuseware.com
http://www.fuseware.com





From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 15:53:30 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:53:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] Javascript question
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008071338240.30182-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>
Message-ID: <001b01c000b1$290b6d40$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>

> new window and creates a page on the fly.  However, is there anyway for me
> to tell the script that it has to output to a specific file that I
> created, rather than it creating its own?

No, not with client-side JavaScript. It has no interaction with the server
(ummm... usually) which is where this output file would have to go.

You can use ASP, PHP, CGI, etc., etc., etc. to do what you want to do.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From adeythom at well.com  Mon Aug  7 15:54:36 2000
From: adeythom at well.com (Adrian Thompson)
Date: Mon Aug  7 15:54:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F22692bXCH5n00z0000440e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807215107.00b262e0@mail.well.com>

Hi Tara - why not just put the serial number in? :-)

Cheers,

Adrian Thompson


At 20:44 07/08/2000 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi all (again),
>
>So, I have this problem...  My fiancee and I share a home computer (Mac), 
>when he got pissed at me cluttering the desktop, I set up another user 
>setting for me.
>
>Now when I try to open Dreamweaver (the same copy that I can open if I'm 
>logged on as him), it asks me to enter a serial number. It tells me that I 
>have to enter a valid serial number when I use the same serial number as 
>the one on my fiancee's set up.
>
>This is the same copy of Dreamweaver, on the same hard drive, just used 
>under a different login.
>
>Has anyone else had a similar problem?  Is there any way to fix it so I 
>don't have to keep logging on as him when I want to use Dreamweaver?
>
>Tara Cleveland
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From btully at gstockco.com  Mon Aug  7 16:02:41 2000
From: btully at gstockco.com (Brian Tully)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:02:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F22692bXCH5n00z0000440e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5B49BA3.13284%btully@gstockco.com>

why not just enter the serial #? I believe OS 9's multiple users creates
separate Preferences files for each user. Otherwise copy (option-drag) his
Dreamweaver prefs into your Prefs folder. That should do it.

B r i a n  T u l l y
Webmaster/Designer/Programmer
The Gary Stock Company
btully at gstockco.com | 914.276.2700 x16


> From: "Tara Cleveland" <taracleveland at hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:44:19 GMT
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
> 
> Hi all (again),
> 
> So, I have this problem...  My fiancee and I share a home computer (Mac),
> when he got pissed at me cluttering the desktop, I set up another user
> setting for me.
> 
> Now when I try to open Dreamweaver (the same copy that I can open if I'm
> logged on as him), it asks me to enter a serial number. It tells me that I
> have to enter a valid serial number when I use the same serial number as the
> one on my fiancee's set up.
> 
> This is the same copy of Dreamweaver, on the same hard drive, just used
> under a different login.
> 
> Has anyone else had a similar problem?  Is there any way to fix it so I
> don't have to keep logging on as him when I want to use Dreamweaver?
> 
> Tara Cleveland
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 




From jaylard at equilon.com  Mon Aug  7 16:03:45 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:03:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Borders and CSS
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC3@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Chris Evans wrote:
> I am creating a menu system using DHTML, and am getting a one px
difference
> between my border and my background color in Netscape.

	Without seeing your code, this is only a guess, but have you tried
the Netscape-proprietary CSS property, layer-background-color?

James Aylard
jaylard at equilon.com



From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 16:10:31 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:10:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] Newbie Question
References: <F321LtosJ3Ih7jtrSBy000001d2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006501c000b3$8c4bd5a0$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>

simply make a link using the ftp protocol:

<a href="ftp://...">Uncle Joe's Booted Dreamcast Games</a>

Hopefully, you have found a *real* use for an FTP site (unlike the usual,
illegal crap I see).

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Shafer <ervsplace at hotmail.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 3:57 PM
Subject: [thelist] Newbie Question


> I apologize for the simplicity of this question but can't seem to locate
the
> answer myself.
> How can one set a link to a ftp site that would enable the user to browse
> the
> directory.
> TIA
> Dan
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From james at designframe.com  Mon Aug  7 16:11:16 2000
From: james at designframe.com (James Spahr)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:11:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F22692bXCH5n00z0000440e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5B49D84.139B2%james@designframe.com>

on 8/7/00 4:44 PM, Tara Cleveland at taracleveland at hotmail.com wrote:

> So, I have this problem...  My fiancee and I share a home computer (Mac),
> when he got pissed at me cluttering the desktop, I set up another user
> setting for me.
> 
> Now when I try to open Dreamweaver (the same copy that I can open if I'm
> logged on as him), it asks me to enter a serial number. It tells me that I
> have to enter a valid serial number when I use the same serial number as the
> one on my fiancee's set up.
> 
> This is the same copy of Dreamweaver, on the same hard drive, just used
> under a different login.
> 
> Has anyone else had a similar problem?  Is there any way to fix it so I
> don't have to keep logging on as him when I want to use Dreamweaver?

When you use multiple users on the Mac, each user gets a separate system
preferences folder (as well as some other user-specific stuff). As long as
the app is always using Apple's API's for accessing the prefs folder -
everything should work.

So when you launch DW, it doesn't see its prefs anymore - that's why its
asking for a serial number.

Why its telling you your fiancee's serial number is not correct - I don't
know, perhaps Macromedia is sometimes using Apple's API, and in other parts
just looking for the prefs folder in the system folder.

Make sense?

James.





From zacm at etr.org  Mon Aug  7 16:15:23 2000
From: zacm at etr.org (Zachary Mutrux)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:15:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] WAI Content Guideline Checkpoint 3.1
In-Reply-To: <E13LXk4-0003uS-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <B5B4747D.1AA0B%zacm@etr.org>

I have come to the conclusion that the answer to my question is "yes, in
order to achieve Conformance Level 'Double-A,' one may not use text images
in a Web site.

Martin said of checkpoint 3.1,

> Ah, but 'appropriate' is an interpretable standard.

The WAI provides a specific example that seems pretty clear:

<http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-structure-presentation>
"...avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style sheets
instead. Refer also to guideline 6 and guideline 11."

> Given checkpoint 1.1... it  would seem that images of text can be OK if
> handled appropriately with alt (etc).

I would have agreed with you a couple of days ago, but after more reading I
realized 1.1 is a Priority 1 checkpoint, describing what one must do in
order to meet the minimally acceptable standards for accessibility as
identified by this Recommendation. In order to gain Conformance Level
"Double-A," one must go a step further--and not use text images at all.

I agree that it seems like ALT text should be enough, but it's not,
according to the current Recommendation.

Thanks all,

zm

--
Zachary Mutrux, IT Generalist, National Service Resource Center
800-860-2684 x.130  |  http://www.etr.org/nsrc
831-461-0205 (TDD)  |  AOL Instant Messenger screen name: NSRC TA




From corth at casey.org  Mon Aug  7 16:22:06 2000
From: corth at casey.org (Christopher Orth - HQ)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:22:06 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
Message-ID: <5589DCD43093D311AE4D00508B12192B011A0936@HQ07.casey.org>

I was at a Macromedia Web World conference about a month ago, and the
general consensus between most of the presenters seemed to be that the new
target platform was 800X600 at millions of colors.

I have been leaning this way myself lately.  The really trick to non web
safe colors is to test on different platforms, not to see if the color is
the same, but to see if the color is acceptably similar.  You would not try
this tactic on a corporate logo of course, but really, if a side nav bar
background is a bit more salmony in Mac than Windows, its not a big deal.
You just want to avoid the colors that completely fall apart when moving
cross platform.

With all the industry pushing buzzwords like "multimedia" and "powerful
generation whatever processors", its hard to think that any new purchase in
the last couple of years would need those lower standards.  In fact, sources
like Stat market tend to mostly agree.




> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin burns [mailto:martin at members.evolt.org]
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:39 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Color Concensus
> 
> 
> Adam wrote:
> 
> >  Has the school of thought 
> > > on the standard 216 changed?
> > 
> > Well, sort of. It seems that lots of folks seem to think it's
> > unnecessary to
> > cater to the 216 palette as most computers can display 
> millions (24-bit)
> > of
> > colors.
> 
> Also many sites are designed by people who run their fast 
> machines at millions of colours and 1600px resolution, 
> forgetting that their audience ain't all like that.
> 
> Many PCs come from the factory at 8bit 640x480, and many 
> users have nfi how to change this.
> 
> The designers in question will no doubt wibble on about 'the 
> brand', forgetting that they can't do Pantone online.
> 
> > The problem with this thinking is that pretty soon, most 
> browsing will
> > be
> > done on handhelds, appliances, phones, and other small 
> devices (well,
> > maybe
> > not "most" but a good chunk). Most of these will have 8-bit 
> displays, if
> > they're color at all.
> +1 on this
> 
> Cheers
> Martin
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From Anthony at Baratta.com  Mon Aug  7 16:46:26 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:46:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807143622.021a76b8@baratta.com>

There seems to be an increase in the number questions to many of the lists 
I'm subscribed to that show a paucity of knowledge about what is Client 
Side coding and what is Server Side coding. e.g. how do I get JavaScript on 
the browser to do a server side include. Or how do I get ASP/PHP to do roll 
overs images?

This is something that I believe can be tackled with a bit of reading on 
the questioners part.  Therefore, I'm feeling the need for an evolt article 
on this subject, but I wanted to throw out the idea here for a bit of 
fleshing out. What do you think should be covered in order to bring a 
general understanding of how web coding works to new web coders?

I come from a networking background were I believe the Client versus Server 
outlook is just part of the basic knowledge base. But a designer or HTML 
jockey doesn't usually start with that understanding. What helped you to 
understand the differences between client side coding and server side coding?

----
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys




From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Mon Aug  7 16:48:01 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:48:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] Javascript question
In-Reply-To: <001b01c000b1$290b6d40$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008071740390.39003-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

> > new window and creates a page on the fly.  However, is there anyway for me
> > to tell the script that it has to output to a specific file that I
> > created, rather than it creating its own?
> 
> No, not with client-side JavaScript. It has no interaction with the server
> (ummm... usually) which is where this output file would have to go.
> 
> You can use ASP, PHP, CGI, etc., etc., etc. to do what you want to do.

At the risk of getting way over my head, in what cases can it interact
with the server?  Can it be done with just JS, and if so, is it insanely
difficult?  I'm not very proficient with Javascript, but even less so with
asp, php, cgi, etc.

Thanks a lot!
Dan





From martin at members.evolt.org  Mon Aug  7 16:55:12 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Mon Aug  7 16:55:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] WAI Content Guideline Checkpoint 3.1
Message-ID: <E13LupV-000Cy0-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

Zachary Mutrux wrote on 7/8/00 10:13 pm

>I have come to the conclusion that the answer to my question is "yes, in
>order to achieve Conformance Level 'Double-A,' one may not use text images
>in a Web site.
>
>Martin said of checkpoint 3.1,
>
>> Ah, but 'appropriate' is an interpretable standard.
>
>The WAI provides a specific example that seems pretty clear:
>
><http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-structure-presentation>
>"...avoid using images to represent text -- use text and style sheets
>instead. Refer also to guideline 6 and guideline 11."

But it still doesn't say "Don't use" - avoid is still interpretable.

My take is that for normal headings, where the text has structural 
meaning,
sure, use text & stylesheets. But for logos etc where the visual 
presentation
is an integral part of the thing, then images could be OK if handled 
properly.

Cheers
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: martin at members.evolt.org              PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
  tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418                snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
 http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=9&uid=32            Edinburgh, Scotland




From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 17:21:34 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 17:21:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807143622.021a76b8@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c000bd$7900fa20$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>

> This is something that I believe can be tackled with a bit of reading on
> the questioners part.  Therefore, I'm feeling the need for an evolt
article
> on this subject, but I wanted to throw out the idea here for a bit of
> fleshing out. What do you think should be covered in order to bring a
> general understanding of how web coding works to new web coders?

One of the coolest things is using Server-Side script to manipulate
values/methods in client-side script. For a stupid example:

<script ...>
window.location = '<%=myURL%>';
</script>

But it gets so much cooler. Unfortunately, it seems to be extremely hard to
comprehend by even some seasoned programmers. Maybe it's just the type of
thinker you are. Anyway, I think at least a general covering would be good.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From djc at five2one.org  Mon Aug  7 17:22:58 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Aug  7 17:22:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807143622.021a76b8@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <398F2D26.3AA2A490@five2one.org>

Anthony Baratta wrote:

> This is something that I believe can be tackled with a bit of reading on
> the questioners part.  Therefore, I'm feeling the need for an evolt article

rock.

> I come from a networking background were I believe the Client versus Server
> outlook is just part of the basic knowledge base. But a designer or HTML
> jockey doesn't usually start with that understanding. What helped you to
> understand the differences between client side coding and server side coding?

Heres the way I used to think of it myself..Kind of Forrest Gumpish, but
it helped..

"If the code is server side it takes up resources(CPU, memory, etc) on
their computers. If its client side, it takes up resources on my
computer."

Actually, the inverse is true(for me at least) these days cus I'm
usually the one running the servers now ;)

How I(looking back now of course ;) used to look at the client server
relationship when I was in kindergarten was with "Tinker Toys". In
simple terms, you always had one big 'hub'(tinker?) where all the
smaller pieces plugged in to. 

Of course, that has nothing to do with code, but I really liked Tinker
Toys :)

Shout if you need/want more :)

.djc.



From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  7 17:26:17 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Mon Aug  7 17:26:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
Message-ID: <LAW-F1462I13pL32ctF0000437c@hotmail.com>

Sorry I didn't make this clear...

When I put in the serial number it tells me that the serial number is not 
valid. But it is a valid serial number. It's the same one that works on my 
fiancees version.

Anyway, kudos to Brian Tully. I just copied his preferences file into my 
user folder and viola! DW works again!

Thanks everyone,

Tara


From:
                 Adrian Thompson <adeythom at well.com>
Reply-To:
                 thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:
                 thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject:
                 Re: [thelist] dreamweaver problems on Mac with 2 users
Date:
                 Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:51:41 +0100

Hi Tara - why not just put the serial number in? :-)

Cheers,

Adrian Thompson
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Mon Aug  7 18:24:03 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Mon Aug  7 18:24:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Restarting MySQL server with Php script
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000807181908.00ae9e40@redhotsites.com>

Anyone know how to restart the Mysql server using a php script?   Preferred 
method would be to call a shell command that would handle this.

Thanks

CDitty 




From zacm at etr.org  Mon Aug  7 19:08:51 2000
From: zacm at etr.org (Zachary Mutrux)
Date: Mon Aug  7 19:08:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] WAI Content Guideline Checkpoint 3.1
In-Reply-To: <E13LupV-000Cy0-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <B5B49D1D.1AA54%zacm@etr.org>

I'll buy that for a dollar. :) I sure hope you're right; otherwise, I'll be
redesigning two web sites I maintain for the US Gov. Not that I object to
accessible Web sites, but there's a difference between an accessible Web
site and a site that meets the spec.

Thanks,

zm

--
Zachary Mutrux, IT Generalist, National Service Resource Center
800-860-2684 x.130  |  http://www.etr.org/nsrc
831-461-0205 (TDD)  |  AOL Instant Messenger screen name: NSRC TA



At approximately 8/7/00 2:53 PM, the esteemed Martin
(martin at members.evolt.org) typed the following:

> But it still doesn't say "Don't use" - avoid is still interpretable.
> 
> My take is that for normal headings, where the text has structural
> meaning,
> sure, use text & stylesheets. But for logos etc where the visual
> presentation
> is an integral part of the thing, then images could be OK if handled
> properly.
> 
> Cheers
> Martin




From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  7 19:11:13 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Aug  7 19:11:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807143622.021a76b8@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <002801c000cc$f3cb76e0$c0d21a26@roselli>

> From: Anthony Baratta
>
> understanding. What helped you to
> understand the differences between client side
> coding and server side coding?

i once turned off JavaScript in a browser and made a person
surf that way for a while so that he could understand the
difference...

it was funny watching him get frustrated at sites that
required JS, even some e-comm sites...




From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Mon Aug  7 19:15:47 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Aug  7 19:15:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] Javascript question
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008071740390.39003-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>
Message-ID: <00c901c000cd$6e23a7a0$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>

> At the risk of getting way over my head, in what cases can it interact
> with the server?  Can it be done with just JS, and if so, is it insanely
> difficult?  I'm not very proficient with Javascript, but even less so with
> asp, php, cgi, etc.

What you want can't be done using JS. I only said that it can interact with
the server to immunize myself from the expected "well, you can call a URL
with JS, that's a server interaction" reply from one of the keener members
of thelist. You need something that can fool with the filesystem... that's
asp/php/cgi/etc.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  7 19:16:26 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Aug  7 19:16:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] trim your posts - gentle admin reminder
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F1462I13pL32ctF0000437c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901c000cd$b19372e0$c0d21a26@roselli>

don't forget to trim your posts, folks...

delete the old footers, the useless headers, and the fluff
content of posts to which you are replying... in short, only
include the most relevant parts of the message to which you
are replying so that our digest subscribers and
pay-per-minute members can surf a little more easily...




From Anthony at Baratta.com  Mon Aug  7 19:30:13 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Aug  7 19:30:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] web engineer position in Oakland, CA
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000807172403.020c2690@baratta.com>

http://www.ideasystems.com/isysworld_jobs.html

web engineer

Position Description
As a Web Engineer, you would be responsible for the programming and
scripting components that drive an e-commerce, entertainment, or
collaboration web site. You would design databases to retain
personalization data and transaction detail. The development team
would depend on you to provide migration strategies for clients who
need to upgrade their server hardware or move to a co-location strategy
for the first time. In short, the Web Engineer gets the hard part of the
technology job done.

Requirements and Qualifications
Fully qualified applicants should have the following:

      At least 2 years experience developing web sites, web
      applications, and/or software including:

        1.IIS and/or Apache server technologies
        2.Web programming with ASP or PERL or PHP
        3.Javascript for browser control and data validation
        4.Experience with database-drive website preferred

      Ability to write cross-platform HTML
      Strong organizational ability, attention to detail, and
      communication skills
      Team player with a strong commitment to excellence
      Familiarity with e-commerce systems or interactive technologies
      a plus

to apply

Email your resume to jobs at ideasystems.com. No recruiters,
contractors, phone calls, or faxes, please!

----
Anthony Baratta
Isys Idea Systems

voice 510-452-4554
fax 510-452-4641




From McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us  Mon Aug  7 20:06:46 2000
From: McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us (McCreath_David)
Date: Mon Aug  7 20:06:46 2000
Subject: [thelist] .NET Framework SDK available for everybody
Message-ID: <9627DBCB3063D311BC4B00902785C55F01601E39@EXPO1>

The .NET Framework SDK (pre-beta) has been posted by Microsoft for download.
Be the first on your block to hose a Win2K server! :) 

<wrap>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/code/sample.asp%3Furl%3
D/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml
</wrap>

Actually, if you haven't done any reading on ASP+ or .NET, y'aughta. Start
at http://www.asptoday.com with the sample chapters from the Wrox book that
are posted there. That book explains it pretty succintly, and if you have
any experience developing ASP, you'll reaaaaallly appreciate some of the
changes that are coming.

------------------------------------------
David McCreath   Web Development
(907) 742-4647   Anchorage School District
                 http://www.asd.k12.ak.us/




From lwkraemer at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  7 20:16:21 2000
From: lwkraemer at earthlink.net (elkay)
Date: Mon Aug  7 20:16:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] trim your posts - gentle admin reminder
References: <002901c000cd$b19372e0$c0d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <00b501c000d5$1d0b7ca0$d3c40e3f@lonnie>

Ah! But don't trim TOO much!

"Thanks mucho. That solved my problem!"
...doesn't pass much to fellow evolters. If someone does solve your problem,
it would be nifty if you'd reiterate the problem (abbreviated, maybe) and
specify the solution (abbreviated, maybe) provided that fixed you up.
There's lots of threads and most of us are interested in the results, but
can't follow the flow of all threads.

<tip type="save a trip to the server" author="elkay">
When you go to a site without specifying a document, add the '/' suffix to
the URL to inform the server that you're looking for the default document so
it doesn't have to ask your browser that obvious question.
</tip>

From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
> don't forget to trim your posts, folks...





From sgd at ti3.com  Mon Aug  7 20:30:21 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Mon Aug  7 20:30:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB3211172012473@gate.ti3.com>

> > This is something that I believe can be tackled with a bit 
> of reading on
> > the questioners part.  Therefore, I'm feeling the need for an evolt
> article

> thinker you are. Anyway, I think at least a general covering 
> would be good.

chime, +1, yeah what he said ... I guess I could be coaxed into helping with
it (considering I'd probably read it and comment heavily anyway ;) )

<tip type="ASP">
<% On Error Resume Next %> is a great way to hide errors from your users.
Just don't put it in there until you're done testing! It will also hide them
from you while you're developing, and can cause headaches.
</tip>


sgd
--
thinksafely



From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Mon Aug  7 22:48:52 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Mon Aug  7 22:48:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Javascript question
In-Reply-To: <00c901c000cd$6e23a7a0$547b5acf@mwardenlaptop>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008072235320.41477-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

> What you want can't be done using JS. I only said that it can interact with
> the server to immunize myself from the expected "well, you can call a URL
> with JS, that's a server interaction" reply from one of the keener members
> of thelist. You need something that can fool with the filesystem... that's
> asp/php/cgi/etc.

gotcha.  Looks like it may be about time to dive into server side
scripting....i can barely contain my joy.

Thanks for your help!
Dan





From sgd at ti3.com  Mon Aug  7 23:30:45 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Mon Aug  7 23:30:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117201245D@gate.ti3.com>

It is (unfortunately) documented that the Session_OnEnd is not reliable.

That's the long and the short of it. Don't rely on it. The shitty thing is
its not fixed in IIS 5. Go figure.

sgd
--
think safely

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Turley [mailto:jay at weberrific.org]

> The paths are of course hard-coded for our test case. The 
> problem is that 
> it just doesn't work. When session.Abandon is called, the 
> session ends; 
> files are still there. 



From sgd at ti3.com  Mon Aug  7 23:30:52 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Mon Aug  7 23:30:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Newbie Question
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB3211172012469@gate.ti3.com>

<a
href="ftp://username:password at ftpserver.myhost.com/browse/this/directory">


sgd
--
think safely

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Shafer [mailto:ervsplace at hotmail.com]

> How can one set a link to a ftp site that would enable the 
> user to browse 
> the
> directory.



From ashisha at rsi.ramco.com  Tue Aug  8 01:29:02 2000
From: ashisha at rsi.ramco.com (Ashish Agarwal)
Date: Tue Aug  8 01:29:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] MS Windows NT development book?
Message-ID: <6126280A261ED111952300A0C955B9A101E8BEFA@RSINTS001>

Name starts with "Showstopper : The development .....". I confidently
remember the showstopper part, but the words after that betray a failing
memory.

<tip type="ASP">
I want some data from Form Page 1 to show up in a specified field on Form
Page 2, how should I go about it ?
Through ASP, of course (if ASP is available - and Perl / PHP / CF will also
have their own ways of doing it).
<%
Dim MyFormField1, MyFormField2
' Capture fields sent from Form 1 
MyFormField1 = Request.Form("fieldname1")
MyFormField2 = Request.Form("fieldname2")
%>
Then, if you want to carry it even further onto another form, you'll have to
do this:
<FORM ACTION=blah.asp METHOD="POST">
....form stuff here...
<INPUT TYPE="hidden" NAME=name1 VALUE="<%=MyFormField1%>">
<INPUT TYPE="hidden" NAME=name2 VALUE="<%=MyFormField2%>">
</FORM>
Through this way, variables can be carried from one form to another, the
only point to be careful being that the user can see these variables by
seeing the source of the page since the <input type="hidden"> can be seen in
the HTML source. 
</tip>

Regards,
Ashish
mailto:ashisha at rsi.ramco.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David Shadovitz [SMTP:david_shadovitz at xontech.com]
> Sent:	Monday, August 07, 2000 11:50 PM
> To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject:	[thelist] MS Windows NT development book?
> 
> I think there is a book which describes the development of Windows NT at
> Microsoft.  Anyone know the name?
> Thanks.
> -David
> 



From philip_wilkins at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  8 03:18:39 2000
From: philip_wilkins at hotmail.com (Philip Wilkins)
Date: Tue Aug  8 03:18:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] (no subject)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F65083y9VfvALc00004025@hotmail.com>

Not sure if you do this but I hope you can help me please!!!!

I have the following code

<HTML>

   <HEAD>
</HEAD>


<BODY>
<P ALIGN="right">&nbsp;</P>

<p>
   <script language="JavaScript">
<!-- begin hiding
// first image should be named 001.gif or 001.jpg.
// All images do not have to have the same extension, ie. .gif or .jpg, but
it an image has to be either an jpg or gif


function switchExtension(num,nam,now) {
var ext
if (extension == ".gif") {
ext = ".jpg"
} else {
ext = ".gif"
}
goodImage[num-1] = now + ext
eval("document." + nam + ".src='" + now + ext + "'")
}
var imgNumber = 2 // how many images
var currCount = 0 // keep count of how many images are on the same line
var maxImgs = null // Max number of images on the same line, putt null for
unlimited (default)
var addZeros // preceeds a number with zeros
var imgNow // current image URL
var extension = ".jpg" // extenstion of most (preferably all) of your
images.
var wxtension = ".htm"
var imgName // name of current image
var imageWidth = "75" // Width of all images; remove quotes and set to null
for normal size
var imageHeight = "88" // Height of all images; remove quotes and set to
null for normal size
winImage = new Array()
goodImage = new Array()
for (var i = 1; i <= imgNumber; i++) {
if (i < 10) {
addZeros = "M00"
} else if (i < 100 && i >= 10) {
addZeros = "M0"
} else if (i == 100) {
addZeros = "M"
}
imgName = "i" + addZeros + i
imgNow = addZeros + i
goodImage[i-1] = imgNow + extension
winImage[i-1] = imgNow + wxtension
if (maxImgs) {
if (currCount == maxImgs) {
document.write("<br>")
currCount = 0 // reset counter for the next line
}
}
var size = ((imageWidth) ? "width=" + imageWidth : "") + ((imageHeight) ? "
height=" + imageHeight : "")
document.write('<a href="' + (imgNow+wxtension) + '" target="_blank")<img
src="' + (imgNow+extension) + '"' + size + ' name="' + imgName + '"
border="0" onError="switchExtension(\'' + i + '\',\'' + imgName + '\',\'' +
imgNow + '\')"></a><img src="spacer.jpg">')
currCount++ // increment by one
}
// end hiding -->
</script>
</p>
<p><a href="file:///C%7C/Lizard%20productions/map.htm"><font face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"><b><i><font
color="#000000">BACK</font></i></b></font></a>
</p>
<P></P>
   </BODY>
</HTML>

The document.write('<a href="' + (imgNow+wxtension) + '" 
target="_blank")<img
src="' + (imgNow+extension) + '"' + size + ' name="' + imgName + '"
border="0" onError="switchExtension(\'' + i + '\',\'' + imgName + '\',\'' +
imgNow + '\')"></a><img src="spacer.jpg">') line is the problem, I want to 
be able to alter the hight,
width and get rid of scrollbars etc but whenever I try and use javascript
for the link it never works!!!

Any help would be great

Philip Wilkins

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Tue Aug  8 03:27:23 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Aug  8 03:27:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] .NET Framework SDK available for everybody
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA1E@SBS>

Excellent first impression - following your link (including the wrap) I get
this error message instead of a menu bar in the left frame:

Microsoft JScript runtime error '800a01a8' 

Object required 

/msdn-online/shared/xmltoc/inc/toc.inc, line 193 

Good eh? 

Apart from that, I'm quite looking forward to ASP+ though I don't know how
long it's gonna take before I trust it in a mission critical environment.
I'm not even prepared to trust W2K Server yet! (Though I must admit that
Workstation runs smoothly for me.)

Hmm, there's a thought - does anyone know if this pre-beta can be run on W2K
Workstation for testing purposes?


.steve


----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------


> -----Original Message-----
> From: McCreath_David [mailto:McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us]
<SNIP>
> 
> 
> The .NET Framework SDK (pre-beta) has been posted by 
> Microsoft for download.
> Be the first on your block to hose a Win2K server! :) 
> 
> <wrap>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/code/samp
> le.asp%3Furl%3
> D/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml
> </wrap>
<SNIP>



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Tue Aug  8 03:31:24 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Aug  8 03:31:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] Deleting server files at session end?
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA1F@SBS>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warden, Matt [mailto:mwarden at odyssey-design.com]
<SNIP>
> 
> What you could do is write a script that runs once a day and deletes
> files/folders that haven't been modified for 60 minutes or 
> whatever you
> decide.
> 

If you find the once a day method is leaving too many files around, you may
want to check every time a session starts or use some other method of
clearing up behind you.

.steve

----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------



From persist1_pdx at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  8 03:39:03 2000
From: persist1_pdx at yahoo.com (Ben Henick)
Date: Tue Aug  8 03:39:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Color Concensus
Message-ID: <20000808083632.19751.qmail@web3903.mail.yahoo.com>

In my own work and testing I've found that there are so many ways to
slice-and-dice color depth.

My old VGA monitor and Trident 1MB card (the hardware with which I
designed my now-stale personal site, and large chunks of peterzale.com)
did wonderfully in concert with NN3.  The browser didn't force colors.

NN4, OTOH...

The Macintosh gives a lot of latitude, except for the fact that it's
got abysmal market share (compared to you-know-what).

SGIs present a whole new set of issues if they're running @ 8bit.  Been
there, done that too.

What I've drawn out of it is the same as aardvark's own approach -
don't obsess about it, but use those colors whenever it's practical to
do so.

Besides, images are easier to optimize if you're not forcing them to
display at 216 colors.

I'll gladly follow up on this... as it's been a topic in my personal
work of late.



=====
Ben Henick              |  "In the long run, men hit only
Web Author At-Large     |  what they aim at.  Therefore,
www.io.com/persist1/    |  though they should fail
persist1 at io.com         |  immediately, they had better aim
persist1_pdx at yahoo.com  |  high."  --Henry David Thoreau

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/



From philip_wilkins at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  8 04:01:25 2000
From: philip_wilkins at hotmail.com (Philip Wilkins)
Date: Tue Aug  8 04:01:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] JS window
Message-ID: <LAW2-F109eeFUtLch9w0000f9f0@hotmail.com>

sorry about the last email (not sure what went on there) here is my code

<script language="JavaScript">
<!-- begin hiding
// first image should be named 001.gif or 001.jpg.
// All images do not have to have the same extension, ie. .gif or .jpg, but 
it an image has to be either an jpg or gif


function switchExtension(num,nam,now) {
var ext
if (extension == ".gif") {
ext = ".jpg"
} else {
ext = ".gif"
}
goodImage[num-1] = now + ext
eval("document." + nam + ".src='" + now + ext + "'")
}
var imgNumber = 11 // how many images
var currCount = 0 // keep count of how many images are on the same line
var maxImgs = 4 // Max number of images on the same line, putt null for 
unlimited (default)
var addZeros // preceeds a number with zeros
var imgNow // current image URL
var extension = ".jpg" // extenstion of most (preferably all) of your 
images.
var wxtension = ".htm"
var imgName // name of current image
var imageWidth = "75" // Width of all images; remove quotes and set to null 
for normal size
var imageHeight = "88" // Height of all images; remove quotes and set to 
null for normal size
winImage = new Array()
goodImage = new Array()
for (var i = 1; i <= imgNumber; i++) {
if (i < 10) {
addZeros = "SC00"
} else if (i < 100 && i >= 10) {
addZeros = "SC0"
} else if (i == 100) {
addZeros = "SC"
}
imgName = "i" + addZeros + i
imgNow = addZeros + i
goodImage[i-1] = imgNow + extension
winImage[i-1] = imgNow + wxtension
if (maxImgs) {
if (currCount == maxImgs) {
document.write("<br>")
currCount = 0 // reset counter for the next line
}
}
var size = ((imageWidth) ? "width=" + imageWidth : "") + ((imageHeight) ? " 
height=" + imageHeight : "")
document.write('<a href="' + (imgNow+wxtension) + '" target="_blank", 
"height=450,width=450")><img src="' + (imgNow+extension) + '"' + size + ' 
name="' + imgName + '" border="0" onError="switchExtension(\'' + i + '\',\'' 
+ imgName + '\',\'' + imgNow + '\')"></a><img src="spacer.jpg">')
currCount++ // increment by one
}
// end hiding -->
</script>

I can't seem to change the line:
document.write('<a href="' + (imgNow+wxtension) + '" target="_blank", 
"height=450,width=450")><img src="' + (imgNow+extension) + '"' + size + ' 
name="' + imgName + '" border="0" onError="switchExtension(\'' + i + '\',\'' 
+ imgName + '\',\'' + imgNow + '\')"></a><img src="spacer.jpg">')

so that I can define the size etc, can anybody help
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From n.d.b at innocent.com  Tue Aug  8 04:21:05 2000
From: n.d.b at innocent.com (Norman Beresford)
Date: Tue Aug  8 04:21:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA1E@SBS>
Message-ID: <009301c00118$757c57e0$602830d5@harrypotter>

Hi all

I've been a busy little bee, searching away on the net (well on google
anyway) looking for a cross-browser textarea formatting script.  Something
which will allow users to highlight some text in a textarea, press a button
and have the tags to make that area bold pasted in around the selection.

I've seen some basic ones (which is all I'm after really) such as
http://marxidad.editthispage.com/TextEditorDemo and I've seen some advanced
ones, such as the one at Hotmail.  However the thing I've noticed is that
they are all IE only.

I understand that IE gives access to the Textrange object, which seems to be
the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be right in suspecting
that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the direction of a
suitable script

thanks in advance

Norman




From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Tue Aug  8 05:52:08 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Aug  8 05:52:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA24@SBS>

Looks like it's not going to happen I think. I checked out Blogger (which is
the first place I saw such text formatting) in Netscape and the tools for
formatting aren't included. 

Perhaps one of the JavaScript/DHTML gurus on the list can give a more in
depth explanation of why. (Though I suspect that you are right about the
Texrange object).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Beresford [mailto:n.d.b at innocent.com]
<SNIP>
> I've seen some basic ones (which is all I'm after really) such as
> http://marxidad.editthispage.com/TextEditorDemo and I've seen 
> some advanced
> ones, such as the one at Hotmail.  However the thing I've 
> noticed is that
> they are all IE only.
> 
> I understand that IE gives access to the Textrange object, 
> which seems to be
> the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be 
> right in suspecting
> that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
> Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the 
> direction of a
> suitable script
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> Norman
> 



From lizlawson at charitycards.co.uk  Tue Aug  8 06:19:57 2000
From: lizlawson at charitycards.co.uk (Liz Lawson)
Date: Tue Aug  8 06:19:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
Message-ID: <00d901c0012c$61c40900$03c812ac@liz>

>I come from a networking background were I believe the Client versus Server
>outlook is just part of the basic knowledge base. But a designer or HTML
>jockey doesn't usually start with that understanding. What helped you to
>understand the differences between client side coding and server side
coding?
>

For me (from an Art&design background), just understanding what order the
processes happen made it pretty clear...

browser requests page >>
webserver checks page, realises it needs serverside processing >>
cgi / php  / whatever processes page and outputs resulting HTML >>
webserver serves output to browser >>
browser gets page >>
javascript happens



If I had to explain it to myself two years ago, I would try someting like
this:


Serverside processing takes some instructions and outputs a page of plain
old HTML / javascript to the server, which is sent to the browser in the
normal way. By the time it's served, the page is no different to a
hand-coded static page that happens to have the appropriate values in it.

This means that all the stuff that serverside scripting can do as well as
output HTML pages, from database manipulation to emails to generating
graphics, happens before the webserver serves the page. By the time the
server gets the page, the script has
finished and stopped. The serverside part of the chain can't react to
anything which happens after the page is served.

That means browser / display detection, form input or information like that
which you want to process serverside has to be sent back to the server from
the browser. This new page request launches a NEW instance of the serverside
script. It's not the same script waiting for some input. Serverside
processing of client input can't make a page change while it is on the
client computer. (And so is pretty useless for processing mouse events!)

Clientside scripting is the exact inverse. It can be executed only after the
page has been served to the client, can react only to what happens at the
client machine, and has access only to information in the client's browser.
It can't interface with a database or any files on the server. If it will
need some information from the server, that information has to be coded into
the page itself before it is served.
The clientside code can't interact in realtime with any information on the
server.


It's probably technically very innacurate, but it's a good mental starting
point...


Liz











From martin at members.evolt.org  Tue Aug  8 06:28:50 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (martin burns)
Date: Tue Aug  8 06:28:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
Message-ID: <398FEE73.001B67.00370@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>

Steve wrote:

> Looks like it's not going to happen I think. I checked out Blogger
> (which is
> the first place I saw such text formatting) in Netscape and the tools
> for
> formatting aren't included. 
Editors based on Mozilla (M17 out today btw) should be able to support this kind of thing through XUL


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Norman Beresford [mailto:n.d.b at innocent.com]
> <SNIP>
> > I've seen some basic ones (which is all I'm after really) such as
> > http://marxidad.editthispage.com/TextEditorDemo and I've seen 
> > some advanced
> > ones, such as the one at Hotmail.  However the thing I've 
> > noticed is that
> > they are all IE only.

Cheers
Martin




From VillanoP at usachcs-emh1.army.mil  Tue Aug  8 06:34:12 2000
From: VillanoP at usachcs-emh1.army.mil (Villano, Paul)
Date: Tue Aug  8 06:34:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised
	 code
Message-ID: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7883DC@DC-SVR2>

LOL.  I didn't even read the whole thing assuming it was a "reply to this to
fix the problem" scam to harvest e-mail addresses.  Cynical little stinker,
ain't I?  ;)

Paul 
PERSONAL QUOTE:  "Go MAD (Make A Difference)!" - Ron Hutchcraft 

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel J. Cody [mailto:djc at five2one.org]
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 12:44 PM


Erg. Disregard this people, and don't be alarmed. 



From Vindavi at executive.tm  Tue Aug  8 06:35:21 2000
From: Vindavi at executive.tm (Vince)
Date: Tue Aug  8 06:35:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
In-Reply-To: <009301c00118$757c57e0$602830d5@harrypotter>
Message-ID: <HHENKNBMPNODKACLDNKFAECCCAAA.Vindavi@executive.tm>

I understand that IE gives access to the Textrange object, which seems to be
the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be right in suspecting
that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the direction of a
suitable script

Hi Norman,

pedrito just wrote up a cool evolt article about this..

http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2665&catid=20

He gives several references, and the one you may be looking for
is http://www.siteexperts.com/tips/contents/ts12/page1.asp

I believe it only works on IE4+ browsers, but check it out.

-Vince
vinceh at eAngler.com






From joxn at vernum.com  Tue Aug  8 06:52:11 2000
From: joxn at vernum.com (Joxn)
Date: Tue Aug  8 06:52:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] tar -T problem
Message-ID: <398FF3F2.E00EE858@vernum.com>

Hi everybody,
I'd like to run a backup of our server (Red Hat) via a cronjob and a
script that calls tar with -T and a filelist.

This is where I start my script:
/home/sites/admin/

These are the directories that I want to archive:
/home/sites/vernum/de/
/home/sites/vernum/nl/
/home/sites/vernum/en/

I place my backups here:
/opt/backup/vernum/

So I wrote a script 'vernumfull_backup' with this line (wrap!):
tar -zcf /opt/backup/vernum/`date "+%Y%m%d-%H%M"`-fb.tar.gz
-C /home/sites -T /home/sites/admin/vernumfull_files

and placed it inside /home/sites/admin/.

'vernumfull_files' is the filelist and looks like this:
vernum/de/
vernum/en/
vernum/nl/

I get:
tar: Cannot add file vernum/de: No such file or directory
tar: Cannot add file vernum/en: No such file or directory
tar: Cannot add file vernum/nl: No such file or directory

If I edit the filelist and write
../vernum/de/
instead. It works fine, but see, this really sucks when I extract the
archive.

For me this looks like a problem with the -C and -T options. I tried
EVERY position for -C but the -T seems to ignore it.

If I give the directory directly, it works fine, like this:
tar -C /home/sites -zcf
/opt/backup/vernum/`date "+%Y%m%d-%H%M"`-fb.tar.gz vernum/de/

But the moment I use -T it all breaks apart.
Is this a known problem with -T and -C? And is there a workaround?
For me - and others, I asked for help - this looks like a bug. But a bug
in tar???

Thanks in advance,
Joxn
-- 
   || //\\ \\// |\\||  ::  mailto:joxn at vernum.com  ::
 \\|| \\// //\\ ||\\|  ::      ICQ:8053703         ::



From n.d.b at innocent.com  Tue Aug  8 07:14:11 2000
From: n.d.b at innocent.com (Norman Beresford)
Date: Tue Aug  8 07:14:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
References: <HHENKNBMPNODKACLDNKFAECCCAAA.Vindavi@executive.tm>
Message-ID: <004501c00130$a549a960$5b2430d5@harrypotter>

Hi Vince, Steve and Martin

Thanks for the replies.  What I really wanted to be told was that it just
wasn't possible in NN4+ so I could stop hunting for one and just use an IE
only script.  Which is pretty much what I've been told.

Thanks again

Norman




From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 07:15:26 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Aug  8 07:15:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] trim your posts - gentle admin reminder
In-Reply-To: <00b501c000d5$1d0b7ca0$d3c40e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <002e01c00132$24689480$c0d21a26@roselli>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elkay
>
> Ah! But don't trim TOO much!
>
> "Thanks mucho. That solved my problem!"
> ...doesn't pass much to fellow evolters. If

in general, posts that say nothing but 'thanks' are better
sent off-list... if the post explains *how* it worked, or
offers a different method (in short, offers value to someone
other than the one you are thanking), then sure...




From isaac at triplezero.com.au  Tue Aug  8 07:40:18 2000
From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman)
Date: Tue Aug  8 07:40:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] mozilla m17 and netscape 6 dp2 available
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBEEAGDHAA.isaac@triplezero.com.au>

The evolt.org site is not showing the latest articles on the cached frontdoor,
so jump to them here:

	Mozilla M17 released
	http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2793&catid=21

	Netscape 6 preview release 2 available
	http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2794&catid=21


Anyone with further info on these two that they can contribute to thelist and to
the site as a comment?


isaac


<tip>

If you suspect that the current version of the evolt site isn't showing the
latest articles, just throw index.cfm onto your http://evolt.org/

</tip>





From Douglas.Potts at dla.com  Tue Aug  8 07:51:02 2000
From: Douglas.Potts at dla.com (Potts, Douglas)
Date: Tue Aug  8 07:51:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] Sound File
Message-ID: <3D6CEDD758B0D2119C860008C75D167EE229E0@exbdf.dibbluptonalsop.co.uk>

Hi,
I'm wanting to play sound file as my front page loads, but have no
experience of this. Whats the best format to use, also what do people
suggest to be the upper limit for the file size to not afect the loading of
the page. Any tips and gtchas would be welcome for doing this kind of thing.
Regards,
Doug Potts

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================




From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Tue Aug  8 07:56:18 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Tue Aug  8 07:56:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
References: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7883DC@DC-SVR2>
Message-ID: <002601c00137$d6fe6840$ec311a26@shmousie>

I have a potential dilemma in the making and wanted to get feedback before
I actually encounter the problem. I've been given some pages to code that
are not in the area that is normally my responsibilty (basically, I'm
augmenting the guy who normally maintains this area). I've been asked to
code them so that they are similar in style to other pages in the area.
Okay, no prob so far -- he uses pretty standard indenting and so forth. My
(potential) problem is that he uses tables extensively around his forms. I
have forms that work perfectly well (he wrote them -- I'm just adding
styles/graphics/etc.)and do not need to be tabled (well, they're in one
cell -- see examples below). I feel pretty strongly that unnecessary code
should be avoided, but I've got a nasty feeling that they're (the regular
guy and our boss) going to look at the code and tell me to table the forms
to match his. Should I stand up for Good Code and risk having to quit over
my principles or should I just bite the bullet and shove in all the extra
code (note that there are other Bad Code things going on at the site that
I've tried to get them to change [eg, no size tags on graphics, no alt tags,
redundant font tags, unnecessary nested tables, etc. ad nauseum] without
success. We've just gone through a redesign, which I would have thought
would be the perfect time to fix these things, but nobody seemed terribly
concerned or inclined to fix them when I brought them up. *My* area of
responsibility, on the other hand, *will* be properly coded, so far as it's
within my power to do so.) Help! I want to be a good evoltian, fighting for
compliant and functional code, but I also want to keep my ubercool job with
the nifty paycheck!

l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie

Code examples:

Mine:

[form]
[table]
    [tr]
        [td]
[form element]
[br][br]
[form element]
[br][br]
[form element]
        [/td]
    [/tr]
[/table]
[/form]


His:

[form]
[table]
    [tr]
        [td]
[form element]
[br][br]
        [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
        [td]
[form element]
[br][br]
        [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
        [td]
[form element]
        [/td]
    [/tr]
[/table]
[/form]




From apatrick at oracular.com  Tue Aug  8 08:14:59 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:14:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
References: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7883DC@DC-SVR2> <002601c00137$d6fe6840$ec311a26@shmousie>
Message-ID: <399008FB.76CBE406@oracular.com>

> I have a potential dilemma in the making and wanted to get feedback before
> I actually encounter the problem. I've been given some pages to code that
> are not in the area that is normally my responsibilty (basically, I'm
> augmenting the guy who normally maintains this area). I've been asked to
> code them so that they are similar in style to other pages in the area.

I don't think coding style is worth losing a job over.  You're going to
run into that everywhere.  Sometimes you can make a difference;
Sometimes you can't; Sometimes it takes some time to win 'em over.  My
experience is that there are enough people out there who don't care
about style (usually the same people who have messy
desks/cubes/offices/apartments) that the best I can do is try to show
one or two of them the advantages of doing it right the first time.

_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Tue Aug  8 08:39:03 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:39:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA26@SBS>

Sounds like a fairly awkward situation, but it seems to me that the solution
is fairly straightforward.

If it were me in this situation, I would present the question to your boss
and see what he says. It sounds as though you are prepared to follow the
other guy's (bad) guidelines if you have to. In that case, present your
argument and let your boss make the decision. You could always present it
this way - "Let me do the markup my way and demonstrate to you that a
smaller download size is presented exactly the same on screen with less
code!". At the end of the day, it's your boss' decision.

The alternative is to code it your way and see if anyone notices. It sounds
as though these guys never look at a page once it's up! The drawback with
this would be that IF they notice, they may ask you to add in all the
redundant code, which would surely be more repugnant than if you had to
include it from the beginning.

Hope this helps - and good luck!!!

.steve
----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l a u r a *^* l y n c h [mailto:cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com]
> Sent: den 8 augusti 2000 14:55
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
> 

<SNIP>



From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Tue Aug  8 08:47:08 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:47:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
References: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7883DC@DC-SVR2> <002601c00137$d6fe6840$ec311a26@shmousie> <399008FB.76CBE406@oracular.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c0013e$f4b55ae0$3b311a26@shmousie>

> I don't think coding style is worth losing a job over.  You're going to
> run into that everywhere.  Sometimes you can make a difference;
> Sometimes you can't; Sometimes it takes some time to win 'em over.  My
> experience is that there are enough people out there who don't care
> about style (usually the same people who have messy
> desks/cubes/offices/apartments) that the best I can do is try to show
> one or two of them the advantages of doing it right the first time.

Note: I'm not arguing -- I appreciate any and all feedback. I do want to
clarify that for me, this is something different than style. Messy coding
style (to me) would be no indents, no comments, no white space between page
elements, etc. I could do that, no problem (okay, I'd put in good style
while I was coding and then go back and un-style it, but same diff). This is
bad, unnecessary code -- and it's something that, IMO, there's really no
excuse for. It's not as if I want to go through all the pages that are
already incorrectly coded and redo them the right way (well, okay, I *do*,
but I'm not making an issue of it). I just want to code pages properly to
begin with. Or as close to properly as the current crop of browsers will
support. And while I do like my job, I'm sure that someday I'll want another
one, and I'll want to be able to show people code that I wrote for the site.
I want it to be the best code I can write. Maybe I'm answering my own
question here -- I do feel really strongly that there is no excuse for
bad/lazy/unnecessary code (other than 'I didn't know any better' followed
quickly by 'but now that you've shown me the light, I'll redo it'). And I
think I might just feel strongly enough about it that I'll refuse to write
it that way. Hmmm. Guess it's time to start hitting the job sites again. :(

l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie




From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Tue Aug  8 08:48:45 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:48:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] Sound File
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA27@SBS>

I'm going to be cheeky here Doug!

I would suggest not playing it at all, unless there's a jolly good reason!
Why? Well, in general, sound files on the front page of a site become VERY
quickly a repetitive nuisance. Think about this - if your users have to
leave the front page and return to it, each time they return, they will get
the same bit of music starting up. Believe me, it becomes irritating very
quickly.

Having said this, you could consider the following things -

	If your site is sound based, if you are a musician for instance, you
might want to have a random song playing each time someone comes on, thereby
demonstrating your music.
	If you are determined to have the music, provide the controls for it
to be switched off.
	Consider using cookies or some other recognition method, so that it
only plays on the first visit, or once a month using the same techniques as
Aardvark describes here: http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=416

Regarding file size, if you are using a streaming technique, such as Flash
or Real Media, then the sound file shouldn't affect the loading of the page
too much - assuming that people have the particular plug-in / component
installed.

Yup, I know that was very opinionated of me, but I hope that I've also given
you some useful ideas for how sound might be implemented on your site.

.steve


----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Potts, Douglas [mailto:Douglas.Potts at dla.com]
> Sent: den 8 augusti 2000 14:49
> To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
> Subject: [thelist] Sound File
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I'm wanting to play sound file as my front page loads, but have no
> experience of this. Whats the best format to use, also what do people
> suggest to be the upper limit for the file size to not afect 
> the loading of
> the page. Any tips and gtchas would be welcome for doing this 
> kind of thing.
> Regards,
> Doug Potts
> 
> 



From VillanoP at usachcs-emh1.army.mil  Tue Aug  8 08:49:30 2000
From: VillanoP at usachcs-emh1.army.mil (Villano, Paul)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:49:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7884A2@DC-SVR2>

I'll be interested in seeing the replies to this thread because this was
exactly what I was asking (remember my "this jerk uses hundreds of redundant
.gifs" question?)...only Laura asked it much better!  :)

Paul 
PERSONAL QUOTE:  "Go MAD (Make A Difference)!" - Ron Hutchcraft 

-----Original Message-----
From: l a u r a *^* l y n c h [mailto:cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:55 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job

...Should I stand up for Good Code and risk having to quit over
my principles or should I just bite the bullet and shove in all the extra
code (note that there are other Bad Code things going on at the site that
I've tried to get them to change [eg, no size tags on graphics, no alt tags,
redundant font tags, unnecessary nested tables, etc. ad nauseum] without
success....Help! I want to be a good evoltian, fighting for
compliant and functional code, but I also want to keep my ubercool job with
the nifty paycheck!



From martin at members.evolt.org  Tue Aug  8 08:56:54 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (martin burns)
Date: Tue Aug  8 08:56:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <39901125.001BF2.00307@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>

Laura wrote:
>Should I stand up for Good Code and risk having to quit
> over
> my principles or should I just bite the bullet and shove in all the
> extra code 
The way to approach this is along the lines of "Building it with proper coding will bring these benefits (usability, disabled accessibility (see Isaac's article today for an example), cross-browser consistency etc). At some point we will have to do this - you'll have a small job now, or a larger job later. But if you really want me to code it the same as the other pages, I can".

I've taken this approach with a site I'm working on, and it's just beginning to bite now (5 months later...) with the usability audit we're commissioning. 


> We've just gone through a redesign, which I would have thought
> would be the perfect time to fix these things, 

You'd think, eh? Was it a visual redesign, or a coding rebuild?

>but nobody seemed
> terribly
> concerned or inclined to fix them when I brought them up. 

So you've another redesign (rebuild rather) on the way.

Cheers
Martin



From pegdaniels at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  8 09:06:14 2000
From: pegdaniels at hotmail.com (Peggy Daniels)
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:06:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] Client Code versus Server Code Article....
Message-ID: <F231HUt1RTffwK5ggTU00003f61@hotmail.com>

Anthony asks:
What helped you to understand the differences between client side coding and 
server side coding?
----

Speaking as a designer/html-jockey, I read Chapter 1 of Wrox's Beginning 
Active Server Pages 2.0, and I used http://www.webopedia.com/ to look up 
explanations of terms such as 'client side', 'server side', 'client/server 
architecture', and 'two tier' etc.  That provided a good enough start and 
plenty of leads to further info.

HTH,

Peggy Daniels
Web Designer, Aston IT Group North America
pkd at astonit-us.com  pegdaniels at hotmail.com

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From edd at vilocity.com  Tue Aug  8 09:06:31 2000
From: edd at vilocity.com (Edd Partee)
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:06:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
Message-ID: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com>

Friends:

I thought this was a simple thing to do. I'm trying to email a few form
fields using ColdFusion <cfmail>. I have the action of my form set to
the processform.cfm page where I have included the following tags in the
body.

<cfmail to="edd at vilocity.com" from="#form.Email#" subject="Test Form">

    Name: #form.fname#
    Email: #form.title#
    etc...
</cfmail>

What else do I need to do to get this to work? Should my cfmail tags not
be in the body? Is there some kind of admin thing I need to do to tell
the  CF server that I want this page to mail? Other forms on this site
seem to work just fine.

TIA

Edd



From apatrick at oracular.com  Tue Aug  8 09:19:26 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:19:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com>
Message-ID: <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com>

> What else do I need to do to get this to work? Should my cfmail tags not
> be in the body? Is there some kind of admin thing I need to do to tell
> the  CF server that I want this page to mail? Other forms on this site
> seem to work just fine.

- Your cfmail tag appears to be intact at first glance.  
- Cfmail can be placed anywhere in the document.  
- The ColdFusion administrator *does* need to be set up so it knows
where to send the mail.  (I'm betting on this one)

Are you getting any error messages?


> <cfmail to="edd at vilocity.com" from="#form.Email#" subject="Test Form">
> 
>     Name: #form.fname#
>     Email: #form.title#
>     etc...
> </cfmail>

_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Tue Aug  8 09:38:44 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:38:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
References: <39901125.001BF2.00307@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>
Message-ID: <002301c00146$2af1c4c0$3b311a26@shmousie>

> > We've just gone through a redesign, which I would have thought
> > would be the perfect time to fix these things,
>
> You'd think, eh? Was it a visual redesign, or a coding rebuild?

Mostly code, but a little visual (mostly to support the code rebuild, which
got rid of a *lot* of frames). If it was just visual, then I coud see not
wanting to muck about in the code, but since we're mucking about in the code
anyway...

> >but nobody seemed
> > terribly
> > concerned or inclined to fix them when I brought them up.
>
> So you've another redesign (rebuild rather) on the way.
>

Somehow, I doubt it. The one guy who's essentially in charge of the site is
the original designer from 3 years ago, so I don't see this stuff getting
fixed while he's there, and I think he'll be there forever.

The more I think about this, the more I think I'll be better off in the long
run finding another job. I really need to learn what questions to ask in an
interview, I think. My last job was a constant disappointment because when I
went and surfed the site before the interview I thought, 'Wow! They really
do need some design help! Wonder how soon they'll want the redesign?' and it
turned out that they *liked* the ugly, unusable, uninspirational crap they
had. And my design style didn't mesh with the "Art Director's" (don't get me
started) -- and usability/user preference was completely low priority to
them. So I went out and found another job. Hip young startup, people that
have pretty much always worked either on the internet or in digital media in
one form or another. The design isn't terribly exciting or cutting edge, but
it's clean, easy on the eyes and definitely usable. So I took a look at the
code, and boy is it ugly (actual code, not just bad style). I figured they
were looking for someone to clean it up, especially when I was told that the
job would include a lot of maintenance. Wrong again. I guess I don't really
ask these questions for fear of offending the person who originally built
the site. And don't get me wrong -- except for the bad coding practices, I
really do enjoy working there. Project management is the best I've ever had
(I'm one of those people who gets very cranky when 8 billion last minute
things are thrown at me when they could have been given to me two weeks
before so I wouldn't have to do them all at once), I can do the occasional
telecommute, the price is right, the people are cool, and the site is pretty
prominent, gets good press, and is unlikely to go under in light of our
subject matter (sex) and established community (app. 50,000). But dammit, it
oughtta be done *right*! And there's no excuse but laziness for doing it
wrong! Damn, damn, damn! Sigh. I definitely owe a tip now.

<tip type=happy tables>
Quite often, many layers of nesting are unnecessary to support your desired
structure, even though it may seem like it when you first build the page. Go
ahead and start with as many layers of nested tables as you want/think you
need, then go back and start removing them from the inside out (deepest
first). Check your page after each removal, both with your validator (you
*do* use a validator, right?) to make sure you got all the tags and with
your browser to make sure your desired structure is still stable.
</tip>

l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie




From jaylard at equilon.com  Tue Aug  8 09:46:08 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:46:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] .NET Framework SDK available for everybody
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC6@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Steve,

> Hmm, there's a thought - does anyone know if this pre-beta can be run on
W2K
> Workstation for testing purposes?

	*Should* work on W2K Professional. The download site states that
IIS5 and IE 5.5 must also be installed. Obviously, since this is a
"Technology Preview", any range of interesting side-effects are possible.
Has anyone already installed/used the .NET Framework SDK? Feedback?

James Aylard
jaylard at equilon.com



From edd at vilocity.com  Tue Aug  8 09:56:59 2000
From: edd at vilocity.com (Edd Partee)
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:56:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com> <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com>
Message-ID: <39901F52.E092D4BB@vilocity.com>

I get this error (see below) which tells me to check my field names. Do
I need to put the field names in all caps? Is there another way to email
the form contents WITHOUT using <cfmail> ? 

ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------<snip>
Error Diagnostic Information

Error resolving parameter FORM.FNAME

The specified form field cannot be found. This problem is very likely
due to the fact that you have misspelled the form field name.

 The error occurred while evaluating the expression: 

 #form.fname#

 The error occurred while processing an element with a general
identifier of (#form.fname#), occupying document position (37:9) to
(37:20) in the template file...

ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------</snip>


Adam Patrick wrote:
> 
> Are you getting any error messages?
>



From jaylard at equilon.com  Tue Aug  8 09:57:03 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Tue Aug  8 09:57:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CAC7@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Norman,
> I understand that IE gives access to the Textrange object, which seems to
be
> the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be right in
suspecting
> that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
> Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the direction of a
> suitable script

	My understanding is that it would not be possible in Netscape. I
also understand (although I am not certain) that the IE-based approaches
that you have seen often use Microsoft's DHTML Editing Component. IIRC, jeff
had experimented with this for the revamped Evolt site, and could probably
give you some first-hand insight. Here's Microsoft's info on the DHTML
Editing Component (as always, watch the wrap):

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/c-frame.htm?/workshop/author/dhtml/edit/r
ef/cncpt.asp

James Aylard
jaylard at equilon.com



From catem at swbell.net  Tue Aug  8 10:01:44 2000
From: catem at swbell.net (cate meredith)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:01:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
In-Reply-To: <001301c00003$12a3cb00$c0d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <000a01c00004$eaf703e0$de90bfd0@dsl.hstntx.swbell.net>


halo,
i hope some of you remember me.  i've been away for a while but i'm back now
and baddah than evah.

re: language.  i like using "oj" as a verb.  i have noticed many of my
compatriots also do.  such as:

i'm gonna come over there and pull an oj on your ass.  which means, of
course, that i'm gonna whoop up on ya and get away with it.

on another note, i wonder if amanda or manda (?) is still on this list?  if
so, could you email me privately?  mucho gracias.

cate




-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of aardvark
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 7:05 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)


> From: John Spencer
>
> I checked "functionality" on www.dictionary.com
> and it's there. It was found in the American Heritage
> Dictionary, third edition.

dammit.  i was hoping it would never become a word, but it
looks like it pulled an "ain't" on us...

what's funny is the subject of this very thread is actually
not the word it thinks it is... i hate the word "verbiage,"
i think "language" can often be used in its place and sounds
less like someone is trying to grasp a big word out of their
ass, but the word "verbage" is: "A deliberate misspelling
and mispronunciation of 'verbiage' that assimilates it to
the word 'garbage'."

note that the dictionary didn't even punctuate the end of
the sentence correctly... another piece of the vernacular
from the software world that is getting into the
mainstream -- not including punctuation *within* the
quotes...

but i use ellipses where i shouldn't...

... yep


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !





From aphelan at confederationc.on.ca  Tue Aug  8 10:03:14 2000
From: aphelan at confederationc.on.ca (aphelan (Andrea Phelan))
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:03:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <C091D44DD8F2D211A6460000F8082B37014D0C23@CC-EXCHANGE>

First, you should always leave alt and size tags on graphics, not only do
they
align and explain graphics for non-graphical browsers, size tags aide in
decreasing the navigatable load time of the site. it's not about having lean
code, it's about having efficient code, and alt/size tags are important.
Second, no code is worth your job. Period. C'mon, it's just HTML.
Third, I don't really see a problem with his way of doing things. In fact, I
prefer it. You can more absolutely control the space between the elements
using
his methods, you have <br> <p> cellspacing="" cellpadding="" height="" and
width="" to play with, not to mention CSS commands if you want. And no table
that simplistic is going to increase the load time of your page to any
extent
that you're going to notice.



> Should I stand up for Good Code and risk having to quit over
> my principles or should I just bite the bullet and shove in all the extra
> code (note that there are other Bad Code things going on at the site that
> I've tried to get them to change [eg, no size tags on graphics, no alt
tags,
> redundant font tags, unnecessary nested tables, etc. ad nauseum] without
> success.




From dascott at wam.umd.edu  Tue Aug  8 10:04:24 2000
From: dascott at wam.umd.edu (David S Gray)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:04:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
In-Reply-To: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA24@SBS>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008080943060.25754-100000@rac4.wam.umd.edu>

i wouldn't go so far to say that it's impossible in netscape... it might
even be possible to make one script work cross-browser, but it wouldn't be
as simple as the IE-only way.

what you could do is use javascript regex objects to identify what part of
the text you want to change (i forget how to get user-selected text in
netscape, but i'm almost 100% sure it's possible) and build your new
textarea value like:

function makeBold(){
  var selectedText = "" // code to get user-selected text from the browser
                        // would go here...
  var whatToMatch = new RegExp(selectedText);
  var resultArray = whatToMatch.exec(selectedText);
  newText = whatToMatch.leftContext + "<b>" + whatToMatch.lastMatch +
  "</b>" + whatToMatch.rightContext;
  document.forms[0].fred.value=newText;
}

...

<textarea name=fred></textarea>
<a href="javascript:void(makeBold())">make selected text bold</a>

 -dave

ps- O'Reilly's Dynamic HTML rocks!


> > the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be 
> > right in suspecting
> > that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
> > Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the 




From djc at five2one.org  Tue Aug  8 10:05:59 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:05:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] mozilla m17 and netscape 6 dp2 available
References: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBEEAGDHAA.isaac@triplezero.com.au>
Message-ID: <3990183B.457BF402@five2one.org>

If you're having a problem with trying to download either of the new
releases cus their FTP servers are slow as #!@%, I've archived each of
them for mac, linux, and windows at our browser archive
http://browsers.evolt.org

You will almost certainly be able to pull it down there faster than you
could off a netscape server today :)

Post comments when I've installed and tested it..

.djc.

Isaac Forman wrote:
> 
> The evolt.org site is not showing the latest articles on the cached frontdoor,
> so jump to them here:
> 
>         Mozilla M17 released
>         http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2793&catid=21
> 
>         Netscape 6 preview release 2 available
>         http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2794&catid=21
> 
> Anyone with further info on these two that they can contribute to thelist and to
> the site as a comment?



From apatrick at oracular.com  Tue Aug  8 10:07:16 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:07:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com> <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com> <39901F52.E092D4BB@vilocity.com>
Message-ID: <3990234C.67DF09AE@oracular.com>

 > I get this error (see below) which tells me to check my field names.
Do
> I need to put the field names in all caps? Is there another way to email
> the form contents WITHOUT using <cfmail> ?
> 
> ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------<snip>
> Error Diagnostic Information
> 
> Error resolving parameter FORM.FNAME


Could you send the code for your form?

_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From djc at five2one.org  Tue Aug  8 10:08:00 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:08:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com> <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com> <39901F52.E092D4BB@vilocity.com>
Message-ID: <399018B4.3B6AB45D@five2one.org>

Edd - 

Can you post the HTML code for your form too? I suspect thats where the
problem lies. Also, are you using a form method of 'get' or 'post'?

.djc.

Edd Partee wrote:
> 
> I get this error (see below) which tells me to check my field names. Do
> I need to put the field names in all caps? Is there another way to email
> the form contents WITHOUT using <cfmail> ?
> 
> ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------<snip>
> Error Diagnostic Information
> 
> Error resolving parameter FORM.FNAME
> 
> The specified form field cannot be found. This problem is very likely
> due to the fact that you have misspelled the form field name.
> 
>  The error occurred while evaluating the expression:



From sbienek at acep.org  Tue Aug  8 10:25:28 2000
From: sbienek at acep.org (Seth Bienek - Web Consultant)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:25:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
Message-ID: <CF6FC96593A2D311906600104BCB0A52680861@SERVER04>

Hi Edd,

Your action template isn't receiving a form variable named FNAME.

Is it possible that you have a text form element named something other than
"fname"?

Case sensitivity is not an issue with ColdFusion variable names, so that
shouldn't be the problem.

Hope this helps shed some light on your situation.

Best Regards,

Seth 

------------------------------------
Seth Bienek
Independent ColdFusion Developer




> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Edd Partee
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 9:55 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
> 
> 
> I get this error (see below) which tells me to check my field 
> names. Do
> I need to put the field names in all caps? Is there another 
> way to email
> the form contents WITHOUT using <cfmail> ? 
> 
> ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------<snip>
> Error Diagnostic Information
> 
> Error resolving parameter FORM.FNAME
> 
> The specified form field cannot be found. This problem is very likely
> due to the fact that you have misspelled the form field name.
> 
>  The error occurred while evaluating the expression: 
> 
>  #form.fname#
> 
>  The error occurred while processing an element with a general
> identifier of (#form.fname#), occupying document position (37:9) to
> (37:20) in the template file...
> 
> ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------</snip>
> 
> 
> Adam Patrick wrote:
> > 
> > Are you getting any error messages?
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 
> 



From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 10:35:29 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:35:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
In-Reply-To: <C091D44DD8F2D211A6460000F8082B37014D0C23@CC-EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <200008081533.IAA15033@smtp3-cm.mail.eni.net>

manage expectations...

raise your concerns, tell them your recommendation, and make 
them aware of any consequences... let them decide based on 
accurate, unbiased information...

once they have decided, get it in writing (email, memo, etc.), and 
do what you've been asked...



From edd at vilocity.com  Tue Aug  8 10:57:55 2000
From: edd at vilocity.com (Edd Partee)
Date: Tue Aug  8 10:57:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com> <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com> <39901F52.E092D4BB@vilocity.com> <3990234C.67DF09AE@oracular.com>
Message-ID: <39902D98.7280885D@vilocity.com>

HTML code for the form in question:

<html>
<head>
<title>Untitled Document</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>

<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="4">
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Name:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="fname" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Title:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="title" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Publication/Organization:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="publication_organization" size="24"
maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Address1:</td>
    <td> 
      <input type="text" name="Address1" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Address2:</td>
    <td> 
      <input type="text" name="Address2" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">City:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="City" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">State_Province:</td>
    <td> 
      <input type="text" name="StateProvince" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Postal Code:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="PostalCode" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Country:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="Country" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">Phone:</td>
    <td>
      <input type="text" name="Phone" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
  <tr> 
    <td align="right" valign="top">E-mail:</td>
    <td> 
      <input type="text" name="Email" size="24" maxlength="30">
    </td>
  </tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>





Adam Patrick wrote:
> 
>  > I get this error (see below) which tells me to check my field names.
> Do
> > I need to put the field names in all caps? Is there another way to email
> > the form contents WITHOUT using <cfmail> ?
> >
> > ERROR MESSAGE --------------------------------<snip>
> > Error Diagnostic Information
> >
> > Error resolving parameter FORM.FNAME
> 
> Could you send the code for your form?
>



From McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us  Tue Aug  8 11:11:33 2000
From: McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us (McCreath_David)
Date: Tue Aug  8 11:11:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] .NET Framework SDK available for everybody
Message-ID: <9627DBCB3063D311BC4B00902785C55F01601E3B@EXPO1>

> Excellent first impression - following your link (including the wrap) I
get
> this error message instead of a menu bar in the left frame:

Yeah, there was some griping about the download stuff yesterday on the
aspngbeta list. This link is working now:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/

The reason I sent the long link yesterday is because this link was serving a
blank page. Go .NET! ;p

> Apart from that, I'm quite looking forward to ASP+ though I don't know how
> long it's gonna take before I trust it in a mission critical environment.
> I'm not even prepared to trust W2K Server yet! (Though I must admit that
> Workstation runs smoothly for me.)

We're setting up our new public and internal servers on W2K and they're
doing fine so far. Granted we don't have huge traffic issues with them...

> Hmm, there's a thought - does anyone know if this pre-beta 
> can be run on W2K Workstation for testing purposes?

As for the system requirements, I think the workstation will work. We've
only installed it on one development machine that was running W2K Server
(and as you might expect with a pre-beta, it does some crazy things).

------------------------------------------
David McCreath   Web Development
(907) 742-4647   Anchorage School District
                 http://www.asd.k12.ak.us/



From apatrick at oracular.com  Tue Aug  8 11:31:27 2000
From: apatrick at oracular.com (Adam Patrick)
Date: Tue Aug  8 11:31:27 2000
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <39901375.F3DA0748@vilocity.com> <39901816.FCB75372@oracular.com> <39901F52.E092D4BB@vilocity.com> <3990234C.67DF09AE@oracular.com> <39902D98.7280885D@vilocity.com>
Message-ID: <39903707.B5E23F8A@oracular.com>

> HTML code for the form in question:

Looks like you probably need a form tag.  
Try this:

> 
> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
* <form action="foo.cfm" method="post">                       <--   *
> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="4">
>   <tr>
>     <td align="right" valign="top">Name:</td>
>     <td>
>       <input type="text" name="fname" size="24" maxlength="30">
<snip>
>       <input type="text" name="Email" size="24" maxlength="30">
>     </td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
* </form>                                                     <--   *
> </body>



_______________________________________________________________
Get your Private, Free FarmDance at http://farmer.oracular.com/



From erika at seastorm.com  Tue Aug  8 11:59:13 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Tue Aug  8 11:59:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
In-Reply-To: <002601c00137$d6fe6840$ec311a26@shmousie>
References: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7883DC@DC-SVR2>
 <002601c00137$d6fe6840$ec311a26@shmousie>
Message-ID: <v04220802b5b5ead84746@[209.213.150.229]>

Maybe the actual problem is that you don't feel that they are 
respecting your ideas/expertise.  Perhaps it's not so much about the 
form in question, but about whether you know what you're talking 
about.  Maybe it's about how much respect they have for you and/or 
for their site.

Erika

>  (note that there are other Bad Code things going on at the site that
>I've tried to get them to change [eg, no size tags on graphics, no alt tags,
>redundant font tags, unnecessary nested tables, etc. ad nauseum] without
>success. We've just gone through a redesign, which I would have thought
>would be the perfect time to fix these things, but nobody seemed terribly
>concerned or inclined to fix them when I brought them up.

erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From david_shadovitz at xontech.com  Tue Aug  8 12:00:11 2000
From: david_shadovitz at xontech.com (David Shadovitz)
Date: Tue Aug  8 12:00:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] MS Windows NT development book?
Message-ID: <39903C15.94653CFB@xontech.com>

Thanks, Ashish.
In case anyone is interested, the book is "Show-Stopper! : The Breakneck
Race to Create Windows Nt and the Next Generation at Microsoft" by G.
Pascal Zachary

-David




From corth at casey.org  Tue Aug  8 12:00:28 2000
From: corth at casey.org (Christopher Orth - HQ)
Date: Tue Aug  8 12:00:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <5589DCD43093D311AE4D00508B12192B011A0946@HQ07.casey.org>

Its easy to forget that in the end, its all about the end user experience.
A few lines of code are not going to make any perceivable difference to a
user on a 56k modem, and absolutely none on higher bandwidth.  As long as it
looks right to the user, I would suggest you don't worry about the code.
After all, with the bad browsers we are forced to design for, we ALL right
bad code to some degree!

I used to really tweak over what the code looked like under the hood.  Had
to be perfect.  But what I learned was that I was spending a huge amount of
time formatting something that had no impact on the end user experience.
You time is better spent on other things.

Now, I'm not saying good code isn't important, it is.  But as long as
quality is above the acceptable line, forget about it.



From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Tue Aug  8 12:17:59 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Tue Aug  8 12:17:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] CSS for Mac and PC
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEKMDHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Hello All,

I have been committing the heinous crime of specifying point sizes in my css
thus:
BODY {
	font-family:  Verdana, Tahoma, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica;
        font-size: 10pt;
        color:black;
	}

I tried setting it to pixels but the effect was very different in Netscape
from Internet Explorer (both on the PC).

Now, although we're waiting delivery of our first iMac (a new-spec DV SE) to
test sites on locally, what I wondered was whether it was possible/better to
specify font size rather than point size, pixel size or percentage?

If so, how?

<tip>
Always rely on thelist for news of new iMacs - it'll save you from buying
instantly obsolete machines...
</tip>

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard. H. Morris, Web Designers Limited
~~ http://www.web-designers.co.uk ~~
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me
          than a full frontal lobotomy"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/





From VillanoP at usachcs.army.mil  Tue Aug  8 12:19:59 2000
From: VillanoP at usachcs.army.mil (Villano, Paul)
Date: Tue Aug  8 12:19:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] THE MYSTERY OF THE DISAPPEARING LINK
Message-ID: <416FD101108ED311BC3800902786F60D7885AC@DC-SVR2>

See code below.  How can I make the "BACKGROUND" link use the usual "visited
links" colors (like the bottom "AAPC" link) rather than turning white and
disappearing?

Okay.  Here's a strange problem I can't figure out.  The "BACKGROUND" link
disappears (turns white on a white background) when it becomes a visited
link.  The other links behave normally, (turning the usual off-blue color
after having been the usual vivid blue link color).  I can't figure out
what's wrong.  

It's for an InTRAnet so I can't post the page, but here's the code, inserted
into comment tags so it doesn't screw with those who have HTML mail.

Private replies, please.  All appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

<!--
 <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//w3c//dtd html 3.2//en">
<html>
<head>
<title>PASTORAL CARE SPECIALIST</title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<center>
<h1><b>PASTORAL CARE SPECIALIST PROGRAM</b></h1>

<table width="87%" border="0">
<tr>
<td width="24%">
<div align="left"><b><a href="tocpcs.htm"></a></b></div>
</td>
<td width="26%"><img src="chapcirc.jpg" width="148" height="140"
align="middle"></td>
<td width="33%"><img src="aapclogo.gif" width="217" height="140"></td>
<td width="17%"></td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td width="24%">
<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>
</td>
<td width="26%">
<div align="left"><b><a href="tocpcs.htm">MATERIALS</a></b></div>
</td>
<td width="33%">
<div align="right"><b><a
href="http://www.aapc.org/membership.htm#specialist"><font
color="#E3E3E3">BACKGROUND</font></a></b></div>
</td>
<td width="17%">&nbsp;</td>
</tr>
</table>

<h1><b>US Army Chaplain Center and School (USACHCS)</b></h1>
</center>

<center>
<h2><b>In Association with<br>
 the <a href="http://www.aapc.org">American Association of Pastoral
Counselors (AAPC)</a><br>
 and Palmetto Baptist Medical Center, Pastoral Care Department,<br>
 Columbia, South Carolina</b></h2>
</center>
</body>
</html>
-->
Paul 
PERSONAL QUOTE:  "Go MAD (Make A Difference)!" - Ron Hutchcraft 




From mpgalvin at eircom.net  Tue Aug  8 12:50:19 2000
From: mpgalvin at eircom.net (Michael Galvin)
Date: Tue Aug  8 12:50:19 2000
Subject: [thelist] Looking for a site with a certain type of content...(oo-er)
Message-ID: <00bf01c00161$29e06080$d7e2869f@mpgalvin>

I'm trying to change the way a client's site is laid out, and I kind of know
what I want, but I need to find a site with the same sort of layout to show
the client.  Basically, they have a lot of content that they usually update
every week.

However, I think it might be better to update the content every day, so that
what is updated in a week is the same as used to be updated every week (boy,
that doesn't even make sense to me!)

For example:

They add 5 articles every week.  Instead, I want to add an article on
Monday, one on Tuesday, etc, etc.  On their front page, then, they'd have
shortcuts to the last 10 (or whatever) articles and as each day passed, the
bottom one would 'fall off' and a new one added at the top ("today's
article")

I'm looking for a site that does things this way.  I know a lot of places
that have this sort of layout but they also have today's article on the
front page (teevee.org, suck, etc), and I don't want that, just the links.

Any pointers?

Michael




From djc at five2one.org  Tue Aug  8 13:26:28 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Aug  8 13:26:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] ADMIN: Question
Message-ID: <39904738.D0BF306D@five2one.org>

Hey folks, quick question. Need to know if anyone has been recieving
emails from thelist with an attachment named att1.eml ? If you have,
please let me know either here or offlist.

Thanks

.djc.



From lwkraemer at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 13:34:20 2000
From: lwkraemer at earthlink.net (elkay)
Date: Tue Aug  8 13:34:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
Message-ID: <003701c00166$217b6200$12e50e3f@lonnie>

Hi all,

I received an RFP, that included these parameters:

"We will not be requiring hosting services, I will want it to reside on my
local server. We have a DSL Internet connection running at 144K and would
want the site to operate efficiently for customers. In addition, we would
like to provide customer access to our SQL 7.0 database. They should be able
to view their order information and submit new orders that we can verify
then ship on.  Security is a major concern..."

Not being a server admin type or having ever set up a site this way, would
anyone like to offer comments or cavaets for this type of request.

TIA

lk






From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Tue Aug  8 13:55:40 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Tue Aug  8 13:55:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] Looking for a site with a certain type of content...(oo-er)
References: <00bf01c00161$29e06080$d7e2869f@mpgalvin>
Message-ID: <00d601c0016a$106094a0$3b311a26@shmousie>

Try our site. http://www.nerve.com. Only the Regulars area is weekly, but
our table of contents is our front page and articles fall off as new ones
are added.


l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie




From edd at vilocity.com  Tue Aug  8 13:56:17 2000
From: edd at vilocity.com (Edd Partee)
Date: Tue Aug  8 13:56:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] PART 2 ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <CF6FC96593A2D311906600104BCB0A52680861@SERVER04>
Message-ID: <39905760.B2132DC7@vilocity.com>

Perhaps an easier question:

I finally got my little form thing to mail, but it only seems to mail if
ALL fields are filled in/check boxes checked, etc. Is there a way to
make my form more forgiving?

TIA



From Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com  Tue Aug  8 14:09:26 2000
From: Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com (Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:09:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] ADMIN: Question
Message-ID: <88256935.0068B86E.00@smtp1.themoneystore.com>


I just did a test by sending myself some e-mail from home, and it's on that as
well.

So, it's not on your end.

Scott





From ppk at xs4all.nl  Tue Aug  8 14:12:02 2000
From: ppk at xs4all.nl (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:12:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] W3C DOM methods and properties
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000808210853.007ad1d0@pop.xs4all.nl>

Hello,

Spurred on by the release of Gecko M17, which finally includes a working
JavaScript console, I took another look at a script I'm trying to develop
and found out to my horror that several key methods of the new DOM, like
removeNode() and replaceNode() are simply not supported by M17.

To get to the bottom of the matter I created a page with all W3C DOM
methods and properties I know, including support notes. 

I'd like to ask all of you who have done some work with the new DOM to
review the page, to point out any errors I made and to tell me if you know
of a method or property that isn't yet listed.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/

under 'Version 5 JavaScript'

Thanks in advance,

ppk

PS: For Evolt and HWG: please cc me, I read the digest



From Anthony at Baratta.com  Tue Aug  8 14:22:53 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:22:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
References: <003701c00166$217b6200$12e50e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <399058DE.22F7B977@Baratta.com>

elkay wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I received an RFP, that included these parameters:
> 
> "We will not be requiring hosting services, I will want it to reside on my
> local server. We have a DSL Internet connection running at 144K and would
> want the site to operate efficiently for customers. In addition, we would
> like to provide customer access to our SQL 7.0 database. They should be able
> to view their order information and submit new orders that we can verify
> then ship on.  Security is a major concern..."
> 
> Not being a server admin type or having ever set up a site this way, would
> anyone like to offer comments or cavaets for this type of request.

One - I for one would not want to write apps with SQL without having admin control
(either myself or my company) of the box and MS SQL. I'm just a control freak that
way. Every time I give up admin control someone at the client side 'gets smart' and
stops the app from working - causing me a ton of pain.

Two - 144 DSL is not reliable enough IMVHO for hosting. Nor may it be enough
bandwidth. Co-Lo's are the way I'd point the customer.

Good Luck.

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com  Tue Aug  8 14:38:14 2000
From: Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com (Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:38:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] ADMIN: Question
Message-ID: <88256935.006B5B43.00@smtp1.themoneystore.com>


Doh!  Replied to the wrong message.  Sorry about that.

<tip type="e-mail">
     When you're replying to someone offlist and they are also a member of
thelist, make sure you reply to them only.
</tip>





Scott_Brady at themoneystore.com on 08/08/2000 12:04:11 PM

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org

To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:    (bcc: Scott Brady/TMS)

Subject:  Re: [thelist] ADMIN: Question




I just did a test by sending myself some e-mail from home, and it's on that as
well.

So, it's not on your end.








From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 14:41:08 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:41:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
In-Reply-To: <003701c00166$217b6200$12e50e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <200008081939.MAA11907@smtp3-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: "elkay" <lwkraemer at earthlink.net>
> 
> "We will not be requiring hosting services, I will want it to reside
> on my local server. We have a DSL Internet connection running at 144K
[...]
> submit new orders that we can verify then ship on.  Security is a
> major concern..."
> 
> Not being a server admin type or having ever set up a site this way,
> would anyone like to offer comments or cavaets for this type of
> request.

yeah, if security is a major concern, then it should be up to them... 
if they don't even have a firewall, then just laugh at them (too many 
folks on DSL don't)...

it's not your problem, you are not a server admin nor do you want 
the hassle of trying to do it or outsource it... their system should 
be secure already, so have them secure on their own dime... if it's 
not secure, do not make it part of a web site project, it doesn't 
belong there...




From djc at five2one.org  Tue Aug  8 14:44:14 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:44:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
References: <003701c00166$217b6200$12e50e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <39905972.6FDD9152@five2one.org>

elkay wrote:

> "We will not be requiring hosting services, I will want it to reside on my
> local server. We have a DSL Internet connection running at 144K and would
> want the site to operate efficiently for customers. In addition, we would

If they want it to operate efficiently for customers, they shouldn't
have it on a DSL line.(and as that 144K(1.4Mbs) or 144k(14.4Kbs(not to
be confused with 1.4Kps which is a 14.4bps modem :) )) speed?) Now that
I've thourghouly confused you, lemme tell you why DSL isn't good for
hosting purposes. The speed they're being quoted isn't a true(lets just
go withthe high end) 1.4Mbs connection. You may, at 4am in the morning,
achieve a download speed of greated than 1Mbs. However, that spead will
be limited when the ISP you're going through has its own traffic
spikes(normal users, other DSL users). Although you may be getting
1.5Mbs to the ISP, from there on out, its limited to what amount of
bandwidth that ISP has and how much you're sharing with other customers.

Bandwith aside, DSL isn't guaranteed to have a static IP address. It
often can and does, but can be changed at the whim of the ISP. That
said, name resolution(DNS) also becomes an issue. If I wanted to host
foo.com on my DSL line at home, not only do I have to maintain a DNS
server of my own, I also have to make sure that www.foo.com points to
the IP address that my ISP has assigned me this month(for example). If
that IP address changes, you have to change your DNS server to point to
the new IP address. In the meantime(about 6 - 24 hours) no one else on
the Internet will be able to find www.foo.com

Further, most ISP's have some sort of policy about running commercial
websites on your DSL line. They often offer hosting as a service
themselves, and its more money they can get off customers, so why let
them have it for free?(not that i'm agreeing with them, but the fact
remains)

Security is also in the hands of your client as well then. I'm assuming
they're not a security expert, yet they'll have to have a good
understanding of security and the Internet if they want to host their
own site. What if the power goes out? Does your client have a couple
uninteruptable power supplies for their servers?

Lastly, and sorry for rambling :), is quality of service. The ISP can
simply say, 'we are taking customer DSL access down between 5 and 9 am
on Sunday for maintence' and basically, you're hosed. Most cable service
is flakey at times, DSL isnt any better. What if a tree falls on your
telephone wires? All are worst case scenerios, but they're scenerious
none-the-less.

> like to provide customer access to our SQL 7.0 database. They should be able
> to view their order information and submit new orders that we can verify
> then ship on.  Security is a major concern..."

Thats kind of an oxymoron. No one that has a concern, let alone a
'major' one, would sit a SQL Server box on an unprotected DSL line. 
Thats a script kiddies dream come true.

Oh, and I'm still assuming you meant 144K - if they only have a 144k
line it just wont happen. Thats filling the line with 4 33.6 dialup
customers downloading.

Sorry if thats not what you were looking for, hopefully it helps a bit
:)

.djc.



From erika at seastorm.com  Tue Aug  8 14:47:34 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:47:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] CSS for Mac and PC
In-Reply-To:  <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEKMDHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
References:  <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEKMDHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v04220801b5b60fae8aa8@[209.213.150.249]>

Try the default.

Do you REALLY REALLY need to set an exact size?  What if you didn't 
specify any size?  Would your layout fall apart?

Or do some areas need a certain size, but not others?

What do you mean by the "effect" was different?  Netscape's 'effect' 
is often different for IE.  Is this 'effect' a bad effect?  Or good? 
or tolerable?

Things look different on different platforms, monitors, browsers.  If 
you can live with it, if it doesn't break the layout, if it is the 
best you can do, if it's usable, if your code is well-formed & 
valid... it's probably in good shape.

The less exact things like fonts have to be, the more portable the 
site will be.

Erika


>I tried setting it to pixels but the effect was very different in Netscape
>from Internet Explorer (both on the PC).
>
>Now, although we're waiting delivery of our first iMac (a new-spec DV SE) to
>test sites on locally, what I wondered was whether it was possible/better to
>specify font size rather than point size, pixel size or percentage?
>
>If so, how?

erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From zacm at etr.org  Tue Aug  8 14:55:21 2000
From: zacm at etr.org (Zachary Mutrux)
Date: Tue Aug  8 14:55:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] site check: isolating network trouble
Message-ID: <B5B5B33B.1AB68%zacm@etr.org>

Hi All:

It always happens this way. We're ready to go live with a site, we've made
all the last minute adjustments we can, and--our client on the other side of
the country suddenly has trouble connecting to our site.

I've been unable to isolate the trouble. Nothing has changed on our server
since yesterday (no trouble then). I can connect to the site fine over a
33.6 dialup and over our T1. My client can connect to other sites around the
country, in our region, and even served off a different machine in our
building without incident. This last would seem to point to our server, but
I don't have any trouble connecting to the site.

If y'all can offer any suggestions for next steps (I have a call in to our
network admin already), I'd appreciate it. If you can try to connect to the
site and relay to me your experience off-list, that would be great, too.

http://www.nationalservice.org/resources/epicenter/index2.html

http://205.179.19.12:80/

Thanks for any help you can offer!

zm




From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  8 15:21:01 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Tue Aug  8 15:21:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job
Message-ID: <LAW-F53ss9jzE9KpmMl00002aab@hotmail.com>

Laura,

It sounds as if you really like this job, other than the coding issue. I 
wouldn't quit over this one form problem. Perhaps the designer codes in a 
different style than you, he might have reasons for designing the form with 
extra td cells (did you ask him why he did it that way?).

Of course, if the whole site is what you consider to be a mess, I would 
consider going to your boss and letting him/her know that you think this is 
a problem, and why you think its a problem, give him/her reasons to change 
it and estimate how long you think it will take to fix it.

If there is no reason for the extra td cells, the boss blows you off, and 
you don't think they are taking your concerns seriously, be honest with 
yourself, and ask yourself if maybe you are being too rigid in your coding 
standards.

If after all this you decide that they are full of *^%#, then consider 
quitting. Because it's really about their attitude towards you and the value 
they place on the work that you do.

Good luck,

Tara

laura lynch wrote:

I have a potential dilemma in the making and wanted to get
feedback before
I actually encounter the problem. I've been given some pages to
code that
are not in the area that is normally my responsibilty
(basically, I'm
augmenting the guy who normally maintains this area). I've been
asked to
code them so that they are similar in style to other pages in
the area.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Tue Aug  8 16:31:03 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Tue Aug  8 16:31:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] CSS for Mac and PC
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b5b60fae8aa8@[209.213.150.249]>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMKELADHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Erika Meyer [erika at seastorm.com] offered:

> -----Original Message-----
> Do you REALLY REALLY need to set an exact size?  What if you didn't
> specify any size?  Would your layout fall apart?

It wouldn't look as good and for a site I'm looking at now, we'd like to set
the size to allow the layout to work in all browser sizes without getting
lost at higher screen res.

> Or do some areas need a certain size, but not others?

That's the other part of it ~:0)

> What do you mean by the "effect" was different?  Netscape's 'effect'
> is often different for IE.  Is this 'effect' a bad effect?  Or good?
> or tolerable?

When we tried setting the font sizes in pixels, er, I think or was it %,
Netscape rendered the text a different size to how it was shown on IE.

> Things look different on different platforms, monitors, browsers.  If
> you can live with it, if it doesn't break the layout, if it is the
> best you can do, if it's usable, if your code is well-formed &
> valid... it's probably in good shape.

Well we've finally got around to getting an iMac to preview sites on so we
can then test for the popular platforms and browsers.

Layout is important to us, hence trying to set relative font sizes and
faces, but it has to be the case that we don't want the sites to be
illegible on a Mac, say, or just to look awful on any platform!

> The less exact things like fonts have to be, the more portable the
> site will be.

True enough. But layout is part of the design look 'n' feel for some
Clients.

Regards,

Richard

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard H. Morris, Director, Web Designers Ltd
        http://www.web-designers.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Registered in England No 3506389
                  Registered Office:
3 Church Street Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0PH
                   Trading Address:
  4 Maden Close Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0UA
               T: +44 (0)1953 606158
               F: +44 (0)1953 606185
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/





From lwkraemer at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 16:47:58 2000
From: lwkraemer at earthlink.net (elkay)
Date: Tue Aug  8 16:47:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Am I an idiot magnet?
Message-ID: <004801c00181$18f9b1c0$24c40e3f@lonnie>

I got this inquiry :-P

"How much does it cost for web hosting? We have a web server that we would
like to use and I was wondering what the cost would be to host both our
web server and the web site? Thank you."

Anyone want to suggest a response commensurate with this request?

TIA

lk




From aharris at bitgroup.com  Tue Aug  8 17:00:37 2000
From: aharris at bitgroup.com (Anne Harris)
Date: Tue Aug  8 17:00:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Am I an idiot magnet?
In-Reply-To: <004801c00181$18f9b1c0$24c40e3f@lonnie>
References: <004801c00181$18f9b1c0$24c40e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <v04210103b5b640392a75@[206.243.191.19]>

Maybe they mean, can you (a) babysit their machine in your server 
farm and (b) adminisiter their site?

-Anne

>I got this inquiry :-P
>
>"How much does it cost for web hosting? We have a web server that we would
>like to use and I was wondering what the cost would be to host both our
>web server and the web site? Thank you."
>
>Anyone want to suggest a response commensurate with this request?
>
>TIA
>
>lk
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anne R. Harris
Information Architect

BiT Group
101 Arch Street
Suite 2100
Boston, MA 02110
617.946.0550 ext. 244
Fax: 617.737.2070
aharris at bitgroup.com
http://www.bitgroup.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 17:16:20 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Aug  8 17:16:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] Am I an idiot magnet?
In-Reply-To: <004801c00181$18f9b1c0$24c40e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <200008082214.PAA27629@smtp3-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: "elkay" <lwkraemer at earthlink.net>
> 
> "How much does it cost for web hosting? We have a web server that we
> would like to use and I was wondering what the cost would be to host
> both our web server and the web site? Thank you."
> 
> Anyone want to suggest a response commensurate with this 
request?

sure:

"Are you inquiring about co-location services?"




From rob at dieseldesign.com  Tue Aug  8 17:30:36 2000
From: rob at dieseldesign.com (Robert Stewart)
Date: Tue Aug  8 17:30:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash4 crashing NS when hosted by IIS
Message-ID: <NEBBIJJOGLKBBBGILLBLIEHODAAA.rob@dieseldesign.com>

Has anyone had any experience with something like this?

I have an embedded flash that uses the geturl command to navigate the site
and when you click one of these it causes NS to crash. I believe it's an
invalid page fault error. This only seems to occur when the page is hosted
by IIS, however. I've had success hosting this with apache.

TIA

Rob




From marlene.bruce at colemandesign.com  Tue Aug  8 17:57:10 2000
From: marlene.bruce at colemandesign.com (Marlene Bruce)
Date: Tue Aug  8 17:57:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] CSS for Mac and PC
Message-ID: <93A7B5EFAA22D4119C8400105A9CA61615A0B4@EXCHANGE>

Hi Richard,

I just had to tackle a similar problem for a client. Layout in my case was
also important to maintain. The tool in question had to work on all 4.x
browsers and above, various platforms, and the html contained nested
multi-rowed tables and form elements. Also, the html was going to be pulled
apart and put into Web Objects, and then reassembled as appropriate when it
was served to the user.

Whew. Okay, so I ended up creating 4 style sheet versions which would be
served after doing a browser detect. After doing some testing (Mac vs.
Windows, Navigator vs. IE), I came up with:

both_ie5.css
mac_all4.css
win_all4.css
both_other.css

I don't know whether your situation allows for browser detect and various
style sheets, but it can be a great and simple solution if your backend can
be set up to handle it. I ended up using 9pt for IE5, nothing (revert to
default font size, which would be equal to 1em) for all Mac v.4.x browsers,
and .7em for Win v.4.x browsers. Of course, the sizes just mentioned are for
general content to be readable, and in all cases the font size can be
changed by the user to allow for variations in users' eyesight.

I'd actually be curious to have someone comment on my choices. I tested on
Mac and Win, in various 4.x and 5.x browsers, and my solutions seemed to
work well.

Richard (or anyone), if you care to see my style sheets let me know and I'll
send them off-list.

Best of luck,
Marlene

> ----------
> From: 	Richard H. Morris
> 
> Erika Meyer [erika at seastorm.com] offered:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Do you REALLY REALLY need to set an exact size?  What if you didn't
> > specify any size?  Would your layout fall apart?
> 
> It wouldn't look as good and for a site I'm looking at now, we'd like to
> set
> the size to allow the layout to work in all browser sizes without getting
> lost at higher screen res.
> 
	[snip]

> When we tried setting the font sizes in pixels, er, I think or was it %,
> Netscape rendered the text a different size to how it was shown on IE.
> 
	[snip]

> Layout is important to us, hence trying to set relative font sizes and
> faces, but it has to be the case that we don't want the sites to be
> illegible on a Mac, say, or just to look awful on any platform!



From chris at intranet.dist-ed.uaf.edu  Tue Aug  8 19:09:24 2000
From: chris at intranet.dist-ed.uaf.edu (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue Aug  8 19:09:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] PART 2 ColdFusion HELP with email form
References: <CF6FC96593A2D311906600104BCB0A52680861@SERVER04> <39905760.B2132DC7@vilocity.com>
Message-ID: <01cc01c00197$25f92bb0$5b15e589@chris>

> I finally got my little form thing to mail, but it only seems to mail if
> ALL fields are filled in/check boxes checked, etc. Is there a way to
> make my form more forgiving?

Well, it is failing because you are, on the sending page, asking CF to
insert data for fields which don't have any data or might not even exist
(with checkboxes, for instance).

the easiest thing to do is to just provide a default value (using cfparam)
of nothing ("") or whatever you want on the page that sends the form, before
you actually try to reference the form values. With this and judicious use
of required fields (some mail servers are persnickety about sending out
email with an invalid sending address, etc) it should work fine. Let me know
if you need code.

c
--
Chris Lott <chris at intranet.dist-ed.uaf.edu>,  Technical Manager
UAF Center for Distance Education
p907.474.5122  |  f907.474.5402  |  PGP Key ID: 0x51046CFD




From lwkraemer at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 19:10:08 2000
From: lwkraemer at earthlink.net (elkay)
Date: Tue Aug  8 19:10:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
References: <003701c00166$217b6200$12e50e3f@lonnie> <39905972.6FDD9152@five2one.org>
Message-ID: <000201c00195$09708da0$f1c90e3f@lonnie>

Dan,

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Thanks.


> elkay wrote:
>
> > "We will not be requiring hosting services, I will want it to reside on
my
> > local server. We have a DSL Internet connection running at 144K and
would
> > want the site to operate efficiently for customers. In addition, we
would
>
> If they want it to operate efficiently for customers, they shouldn't
> have it on a DSL line.(and as that 144K(1.4Mbs) or 144k(14.4Kbs(not to
> be confused with 1.4Kps which is a 14.4bps modem :) )) speed?) Now that
> I've thourghouly confused you, lemme tell you why DSL isn't good for
> hosting purposes. The speed they're being quoted isn't a true(lets just
> go withthe high end) 1.4Mbs connection. You may, at 4am in the morning,
> achieve a download speed of greated than 1Mbs. However, that spead will
> be limited when the ISP you're going through has its own traffic
> spikes(normal users, other DSL users). Although you may be getting
> 1.5Mbs to the ISP, from there on out, its limited to what amount of
> bandwidth that ISP has and how much you're sharing with other customers.
>
> Bandwith aside, DSL isn't guaranteed to have a static IP address. It
> often can and does, but can be changed at the whim of the ISP. That
> said, name resolution(DNS) also becomes an issue. If I wanted to host
> foo.com on my DSL line at home, not only do I have to maintain a DNS
> server of my own, I also have to make sure that www.foo.com points to
> the IP address that my ISP has assigned me this month(for example). If
> that IP address changes, you have to change your DNS server to point to
> the new IP address. In the meantime(about 6 - 24 hours) no one else on
> the Internet will be able to find www.foo.com
>
> Further, most ISP's have some sort of policy about running commercial
> websites on your DSL line. They often offer hosting as a service
> themselves, and its more money they can get off customers, so why let
> them have it for free?(not that i'm agreeing with them, but the fact
> remains)
>
> Security is also in the hands of your client as well then. I'm assuming
> they're not a security expert, yet they'll have to have a good
> understanding of security and the Internet if they want to host their
> own site. What if the power goes out? Does your client have a couple
> uninteruptable power supplies for their servers?
>
> Lastly, and sorry for rambling :), is quality of service. The ISP can
> simply say, 'we are taking customer DSL access down between 5 and 9 am
> on Sunday for maintence' and basically, you're hosed. Most cable service
> is flakey at times, DSL isnt any better. What if a tree falls on your
> telephone wires? All are worst case scenerios, but they're scenerious
> none-the-less.
>
> > like to provide customer access to our SQL 7.0 database. They should be
able
> > to view their order information and submit new orders that we can verify
> > then ship on.  Security is a major concern..."
>
> Thats kind of an oxymoron. No one that has a concern, let alone a
> 'major' one, would sit a SQL Server box on an unprotected DSL line.
> Thats a script kiddies dream come true.
>
> Oh, and I'm still assuming you meant 144K - if they only have a 144k
> line it just wont happen. Thats filling the line with 4 33.6 dialup
> customers downloading.
>
> Sorry if thats not what you were looking for, hopefully it helps a bit
> :)
>
> .djc.





From martin at members.evolt.org  Tue Aug  8 19:43:33 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  8 19:43:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Looking for a site with a certain type of content...(oo-er)
Message-ID: <E13MJw3-0001Py-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

Michael Galvin wrote on 8/8/00 6:50 pm

>They add 5 articles every week.  Instead, I want to add an article on
>Monday, one on Tuesday, etc, etc.  On their front page, then, they'd have
>shortcuts to the last 10 (or whatever) articles and as each day passed, the
>bottom one would 'fall off' and a new one added at the top ("today's
>article")
>
>I'm looking for a site that does things this way.  I know a lot of places
>that have this sort of layout but they also have today's article on the
>front page (teevee.org, suck, etc), and I don't want that, just the links.

You mean like thesite (http://evolt.org/) but without the synopsis/
1st 200 chars of the article body?

Essentially it's a kind of Content Management System you need - we
have a basic one for evolt, but they go up to the million pound mark.
You could also get the slashcode (which is free...).

If you've a vaguely intelligent one, it will also allow you to schedule
updates so you can do all 5 updates on Monday and have them go live
on the appropriate date/time, thus giving you the rest of the week
off to play frisbee golf ;-)

Cheers
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: martin at members.evolt.org              PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
  tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418                snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
 http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=9&uid=32            Edinburgh, Scotland




From sgd at ti3.com  Tue Aug  8 20:53:51 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Tue Aug  8 20:53:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] Self-serve
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117201248A@gate.ti3.com>

> Two - 144 DSL is not reliable enough IMVHO for hosting. Nor 
> may it be enough
> bandwidth. Co-Lo's are the way I'd point the customer.


my $4.32 :

1) From what you've shown us, they think they know what they're doing, but
they don't. You may have a hard time working with them.

2) DSL to their office is no way to host a server. Move the box to a
co-location that has the infrastructure to handle it. Do they have redundant
access in case the DSL goes by-by? Does the server have any UPS attached to
it?

3) The "customer access to our SQL Server" statement just plain scares me.
How do they mean that? Direct connection to the Server? Access through web
pages? Do they really know and understand the security nightmare that
statement implies?

If you choose to chase this one down, I'd recommend co-locating the server
and multiple copies of the database; one accessible through a web interface,
and one 'master' copy back at the office that the customers have *absolutely
no* access to.

Like I said, this one sounds like a headache waiting to happen. But that is
from the 4 sentences you've shown us, so please salt to taste.

sgd
--
think safely



From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  8 23:00:17 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Aug  8 23:00:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash4 crashing NS when hosted by IIS
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIJJOGLKBBBGILLBLIEHODAAA.rob@dieseldesign.com>
Message-ID: <000701c001b6$0ca9bca0$fcd21a26@roselli>

> From: Robert Stewart
>
> I have an embedded flash that uses the geturl
> command to navigate the site
> and when you click one of these it causes NS to
> crash. I believe it's an
> invalid page fault error. This only seems to
> occur when the page is hosted
> by IIS, however. I've had success hosting this
> with apache.

no problems IME... as an example:
http://archres.com/

use the A|r net link in the bottom left...

no design or implementation crits needed -- not my design or
recommended technology...




From sabowski at wam.umd.edu  Tue Aug  8 23:44:30 2000
From: sabowski at wam.umd.edu (Erik M. Sabowski)
Date: Tue Aug  8 23:44:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] XML info...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008090040150.14750-100000@rac7.wam.umd.edu>

I'm trying to learn XML, but i'm having a hard time getting any of the
java parsers and stuff to work (LotusXSL, Xerces, XML4J ). anyone know of
some good resources for that kind of stuff?

#airyk

+--------------------------------+
| Erik M. Sabowski               |
| Computer Assistant, NOAA (NGS) |
| sabowski at wam.umd.edu           |
+--------------------------------+
| "Don't try to out-stupid Erik" |
|                        -ash    |
+--------------------------------+




From thesite at lists.evolt.org  Wed Aug  9 00:01:44 2000
From: thesite at lists.evolt.org (thesite at lists.evolt.org)
Date: Wed Aug  9 00:01:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 09-Aug-00
Message-ID: <200008090519.AAA15871@poet.oracular.com>


evolt.org headlines for 09-Aug-00

Netscape 6 preview release 2 available
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=21&cid=2794
Mozilla M17 released
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=21&cid=2793
SOCOG hearing over inaccessible Web site
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=1&cid=2792


Happy reading...

the evolt.org admin team





From mike at cloudfactory.org  Wed Aug  9 01:10:01 2000
From: mike at cloudfactory.org (Mike Migurski)
Date: Wed Aug  9 01:10:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] any idea where to register a .pl domain?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0008082310170.12405-100000@stratus.cloudfactory.org>



--------------------------------------------------------------
                   michal migurski     mike at cloudfactory.org
                  tel:510-845-3911     AIM:migurski
    http://www.viberation.com/mike     ICQ:47513232
--------------------------------------------------------------




From gsd at mac.com  Wed Aug  9 01:30:53 2000
From: gsd at mac.com (George Donnelly)
Date: Wed Aug  9 01:30:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] any idea where to register a .pl domain?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0008082310170.12405-100000@stratus.cloudfactory.org>
Message-ID: <B5B729AB.141DF%gsd@mac.com>

try this

http://www.netnames.pl/uk/

Regards,
GEORGE DONNELLY
george at cyklotron.com
http://cyklotron.com/
Too many people are thinking of security instead of opportunity. They seem
more afraid of life than death. --James F. Byrnes 




From sabowski at wam.umd.edu  Wed Aug  9 01:59:57 2000
From: sabowski at wam.umd.edu (Erik M. Sabowski)
Date: Wed Aug  9 01:59:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] one more XML question...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008090255290.16563-100000@rac2.wam.umd.edu>

i am using IE's xslt (even though i want to use the java ones)...is there
anyway to save the resulting HTML to a file? 'view source' and 'save' both
do the xml, not the html...

#airyk

+--------------------------------+
| Erik M. Sabowski               |
| Computer Assistant, NOAA (NGS) |
| sabowski at wam.umd.edu           |
+--------------------------------+
| "Don't try to out-stupid Erik" |
|                        -ash    |
+--------------------------------+




From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Wed Aug  9 02:02:32 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Wed Aug  9 02:02:32 2000
Subject: [thelist] any idea where to register a .pl domain?
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA28@SBS>

If you want to go direct to source, I would try here:
http://www.nask.pl/ (How's your Polish??).

There's a list of international domains plus addresses to naming authorities
here: http://www.norid.no/domreg.html

Otherwise I should imagine that most domain suppliers could probably arrange
the booking for you.

.steve




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Migurski [mailto:mike at cloudfactory.org]
> Sent: den 9 augusti 2000 08:11
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] any idea where to register a .pl domain?
> 
> 



From redstar at clix.pt  Wed Aug  9 03:52:06 2000
From: redstar at clix.pt (.redstar.)
Date: Wed Aug  9 03:52:06 2000
Subject: [thelist] XML info...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008090040150.14750-100000@rac7.wam.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <NEBBJFFKJALAJHHGJCGNIEFBDJAA.redstar@clix.pt>

Hi Erik,

I would recommend you set up Apache 1.3.12 with Cocoon (1.7.4 is the latest
stable I think). It's not to hard to set up, even under Windows, and will
give you plenty of space to play around and test.

.redstar.

<quote>
<author name="Erik M. Sabowski" />
...I'm trying to learn XML, but i'm having a hard time getting any of the
java parsers and stuff to work...
</quote>




From deboute at nerdsoul.com  Wed Aug  9 04:29:20 2000
From: deboute at nerdsoul.com (deboute benjamin)
Date: Wed Aug  9 04:29:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jumbo tip + massive FW :: Icann board nominees analyzis
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000809112711.00c77690@POP3.club-internet.fr>

Beware, the FW is fairly massive, but very interesting.
I apologize to those who don't feel concerned by this mail.

<tip type="php+js" author="deboute benjamin">
the massive problem with SQL data update or insertion ( or whatever 
server-side data manipulation ) is that it requires a trip to the server 
that sends back some data.
The usual data ( HTTP header ) loads a page in the users browser.

ok ?

Well.

On some webapps, you might want some server-side stuff to be updated 
without a page being (re-)loaded.
--
i.e. :: complex customer support management.
We gather newsgroups, mails, webforums and output messages without critic 
data to dedicaced mailing lists, newsgroups and webforums. So we needed a 
'public/confidential' checkbox in the message treatment webapp that updates 
a 'public' field in a SQL row.
--
Welcoooome to the magnificient power of HTTP 204 !
i.e. ::
html form ->
<input type="checkbox" onClick="document.location.href='php.script'">
php script ->
<?
header("$SERVER_PROTOCOL 204");
SQL manipulation
?>

Explication ::
when you click the checkbox, the script is requested.
the first line ( 'header("$SERVER_PROTOCOL 204");' ) sends a 204 to the 
browser that tells him :: "ok dude, i got your request, but forget it, 
there's nothing good for you in this page".
The browser stops then waiting for the page it requested and loads NOTHING.
On the server-side, the script IS processed.

Result ::
a server script executed, a client that stands still.


Enjoy. It's magick.
</tip>

From: Dave Farber <farber at cis.upenn.edu>
Subject: IP: CYBER-FEDERALIST No.4:  An Analysis of ICANN-Named Board
   Nominees
Sender: owner-ip-sub-1 at admin.listbox.com
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
From: Hans Klein <hklein at cpsr.org>


       CYBER-FEDERALIST       No. 4        August 8, 2000

          AN ANALYSIS OF THE ICANN-NAMED BOARD NOMINEES

    Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR)
          http://www.cpsr.org/internetdemocracy
               Internet Democracy Project
          http://www.internetdemocracyproject.org/
   ********************************************************


The ICANN Nominating Committee recently announced its nominees for the At
Large elections. Here I offer some analysis of the nominees' backgrounds
and assess their qualifications to represent Internet users.

In what follows I consider the following issues:
    I. Nominees' Technical Expertise
   II. Nominees' Qualifications to Represent Users
  III. Regional Breakdown and Gaps in the Set of Nominees

Let me first offer the conclusions: based on the limited information
available to date, it seems that most of ICANN's proposed candidates
reinforce the perspectives already present on the Board.  Most come from
the Internet supply industry, the intellectual property community, and the
R&D community.  Individuals from these groups possess impressive
qualifications -- but not to represent Internet users.  Only seven of
ICANN's nominees seem appropriate to represent users, i.e. they offer
perspectives that complement today's Supporting Organization directors.
Some regions, most notably Europe, have *no* nominees with a clear user
perspective.  Therefore, it will be important to develop additional Board
candidates through the Member Nomination process (which closes on August 14.)


I. Nominees' Technical Expertise
================================
Of eighteen nominees, twelve have strong computer science and networking
skills, often based on advanced degrees and careers in information
technology.  In this group are:
- both African candidates (Levin and Quaynor)
- two of the four Asian candidates (Chiang and Ramadass)
- four of the five European candidates (Hansen, Muron, Popov, Schueller)
- all three Latin American candidates (Echeberria, Campos, Poblete)
- just one of the four North American candidates (Chapin).

Of the remaining six nominees, two have technical training, but not in
information technology:
- Gao (Asia) studied geology
- Langenberg (N. America) was a professor of physics.

Three candidates have no technical degrees:
- Katoh (Asia) has degrees in law
- Lessig (N. America) degrees in economics, philosophy, and law
- Harris (N. America) has degrees in political science.

One nominee's educational field is unknown:
- Cattui (Europe) is described as a "graduate of Harvard University."

A lack of technical training and experience must be considered a weakness
in a candidate's qualifications.  It should be noted, however, that three
of the four candidates listing no technical training do work in the area of
information policy and so presumably possess knowledge of the technology
(Katoh, Lessig, and Harris).


II. Nominees' Qualifications to Represent Users
===============================================
ICANN's candidates can also be categorized according to their professional
backgrounds, perspectives, and likely values. Here the big question is how
well their backgrounds qualify them to represent users (which is what At
Large Directors are supposed to do.)

Interestingly, what it means to "represent users" is nowhere defined. Yet
the by-laws do define two different kinds of representatives and presumably
for a reason: they would seem to represent different knowledge, interests,
and values.

At Large directors could possess a "user perspective" based on a concern
for accessibility, affordability, and balanced rights of speech, privacy,
and property.  At minimum, At Large directors should *complement* today's
directors, bringing new values to the Board.  The user perspective should
not simply reinforce that which exists.

By examining today's directors we can get a sense of what views already
exist (and, therefore, do not need to be reinforced.)  The SO-elected
directors represent three groups: the supply industry, the networking R&D
community, and trademark and intellectual property interests.

First, three SO directors have ties to the corporations that supply
Internet goods and services -- companies with strong financial interests in
technical coordination.  Directors from the supply industry are: Pindar
Wong (Chairman of an association that describes itself as promoting the
business interests of the Internet service industry), Cerf (MCI Worldcom),
and Phil Davidson (BT/British Telecom).

Second, four SO Directors represent the R&D community in computer
networking. These directors often have ties to organizations that operate
academic or research networks.  They are: Pisanty (Director of Computing
Academic Services at Mexico's UNAM), Jean-Francois Abramatic (Chairman of
the World Wide Web Consortium), Robert Blokzijl (registry operations and
research networking), and Ken Fockler (who worked for companies like IBM
supplying networking services, often to universities).

Finally, two directors have expertise in or formal ties to intellectual
property, often in business law.  These directors are: Cohen (a practicing
intellectual property lawyer) and Abril i Abril (a professor of law in
business competition and contracts and a consultant to e-commerce firms).

Let there be no doubt: these are nine outstanding individuals who deserve
praise for their accomplishments.  Some have additional ties to non-profit
organizations as well.  However, in the main they represent the
perspectives of the supply industry, the R&D community, and intellectual
property.

If the incoming At Large directors are to represent users, then at minimum
they should differ from today's directors.  Based on information available
to date, however, it seems that fully eleven of ICANN's eighteen nominees
reinforce the existing perspectives.

Six of the nominees have ties to the supply industry. These are:
  - Chapin (N. America) - BBN (Verizon - GTE/Bell Atlantic)
  - Muron (Europe) - France Telecom
  - Schueller (Europe) - Deutsche Telekom
  - Katoh (Asia) - Fujitsu Ltd.
  - Miller (N. America) - Information Technology Industry Assoc.
  - Cattui (Europe) - International Chamber of Commerce

Intuitively, it makes sense to question these candidates' qualifications to
represent users. Is a large telecommunications corporation the appropriate
representative of users?  That seems unlikely (although ICANN's Nominating
Committee apparently found them appropriate.)

Continuing through the list, we find two candidates with strong ties to the
intellectual property (IP) community:
- Gao (Asia) - former Commissioner of China's State Intellectual Property
Office
- Katoh (Asia) - a Washington-based lawyer at Fujitsu who is also an expert
in intellectual property law. (He is also listed among the supply industry
candidates, above.)

True, an IP expert does have a valid claim to represent users.  After all,
intellectual property is a public policy issue that concerns many users,
and DNS management is inextricably intertwined with this area of public
policy. However, this perspective is already well-represented. Indeed,
ICANN has effectively made public policy in this area, which has led to
hundreds of domain names being reassigned.  Nominees with an IP perspective
do not complement today's directors.

Finally, another four nominees come from the R&D community. These are:
- Hansen (Europe) - Director of the Norwegian ccTLD registry
- Poblete (Latin America) - Director of School of Engineering and contact
for the Chilean ccTLD registry
- Popov (Europe) - professor of computer science in Macedonia; apparently
associated with the .mk ccTLD registry.
- Ramadass (Asia) - research leader

In total, then, eleven of ICANN's eighteen nominees reinforce perspectives
already present on the Board.

That leaves just seven of the eighteen as potential user representatives.
These seven can be categorized into three groups: small business/economic
development, non-commercial users, and public interest advocates.

Five candidates have backgrounds related to networking and small business
in developing countries.  Most have entrepreneurship and policy experience.
  These are:
- Quaynor (Africa) -small business, Internet access
- Moura Campos (Latin America) -government research management
- Levin (Africa) -small business, IT-health care
- Chiang (Asia) -College of Commerce, small business and IT
- Echeberria (Latin America) -small business
(Note: Poblete and Popov have some claim to be in this group as well.  They
have been involved in bringing the Internet to Chile and Macedonia,
respectively. However, their primary qualification appears to be their
technical expertise.)

One candidate holds a policy position for a large non-commercial institution.
- Langenberg (N. America) -Chancellor of the Univ. System of Maryland

One candidate is a law professor who has performed advocacy for consumers
and for civil liberties.
- Lessig (N. America) -legal scholar and public intellectual

All seven of these candidates would complement the existing SO directors.
It is worth noting that most of these nominees still have a business and
technical perspective.  However, small businesses often share concerns with
individual users about the potential for excessive influence by suppliers
and trademark interests.  A university system chancellor is also likely to
have different perspective than industry. Only one candidate is
distinguished as an advocate for communication and consumer rights: Lessig.
  He is the only candidate with an explicit countervailing policy
orientation to that of the intellectual property candidates.

All seven of these candidates seem qualified to represent users.  Depending
on how you look at it, "the glass is one-third full or two-thirds empty."
ICANN has offered eleven candidates with only limited appeal for Internet
users.  On the other hand, there are seven with relevant backgrounds.


III. Regional Breakdown
=======================
Since voting will occur in five regions, it is useful to see where the
qualified user candidates will stand for election.

AFRICA:  both nominees seem to posses user qualifications (Levin, Quaynor)

ASIA: only one nominee seems an appropriate user representative (Chiang).

EUROPE: not a single one of the five nominees seems appropriate to
represent users.  (Popov of Macedonia appears to be the closest candidate.)

N. AMERICA: two candidates seem appropriate (Langenberg, Lessig).

LATIN AMERICA: Echeberria and Mouros Campos seem qualified.  (Poblete may
have qualifications as well.)


Further, it may be worth considering what kinds of candidates are needed in
which regions.

Small business perspective: candidates with these qualifications are
missing in Europe and N. America.

Non-commercial institution perspective: candidates with these credentials
are missing in Africa, Asia, Europe, and Latin America (i.e. all regions
but N. America.)

Consumer and civil liberties advocate: candidates with these credentials
are missing in Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America (i.e. all regions but N.
America.)

Arguably, every region should have a consumer and civil liberties candidate
representing privacy, speech, and access.  This is needed to balance the
property rights perspective in today's ICANN. Communication rights
candidates can shape the terms of the election debates, ensuring that
important issues come to the attention of the voting public.  Issues of
affordability, access, parody, critique, and privacy are unlikely to arise
in a debate between, say, Deutsche Telekom, France Telecom, and the
International Chamber of Commerce. Today, only North America has a
communications rights candidate.

ICANN's Member Nomination process offers the opportunity to develop
candidates offering user-relevant perspectives.  Potential candidates have
until August 14 to put their name forward. (They will then have until
August 31 to qualify as a candidate by getting endorsements by 2% of voters
in their region, subject to a limit of seven candidates per region.  See:
http://members.icann.org/nom.html )  This analysis may help potential
candidates identify whether they can fill a gap in their region.

In summary, ICANN's nominees largely reinforce and repeat the limited set
of perspectives already on the Board. A supply industry association can
always limit user voices by asserting technical expertise as the criterion
for participation.  Automakers know more about exhaust gases than urban
residents, pharmaceutical manufacturers understand their products better
than hospital patients, and the nuclear power industry understands fission
better than people living near a plant. The same holds true for Internet
naming and addressing technology, which is best understood by the
packet-switched communications industry and the associated networking R&D
community. Yet other technology-based industries have allowed non-technical
stakeholders a voice in decisions that affect them all.  Today, Internet
users deserve representation in policy-making for the name space.  Most of
ICANN's nominees are technical experts or interested parties with limited
claim to represent users. The challenge of the coming weeks will be to
nominate user representatives as candidates for the ICANN Board.


SOURCES
=======
In the interest of fairness ICANN has offered little information about the
candidates, because the official election period has not yet begun.  Thus
this analysis is based on information from only two sources:
- ICANN's information about the candidates:
   http://www.icann.org/nomcom/nominations.htm and
- information from the Civil Society Internet Forum:
   http://www.CivilSocietyInternetForum.org
Insofar as this analysis helps prospective candidates decide whether to
run, it is consistent with a concern for fairness.

Candidates and readers are welcome to post comments to this analysis:
http://www.cpsr.org/internetdemocracy/cyber-federalist.html

The comments page currently features feedback from Mr. Paul Garrin and Ms.
Esther Dyson.


=========================================================

CYBER-FEDERALIST is a regularly-published series of analyses and
commentaries on Internet governance and ICANN elections. It is produced as
part of the Internet Democracy Project. See:
     http://www.cpsr.org/internetdemocracy
     http://www.internetdemocracyproject.org/

Subscribe to the CYBER-FEDERALIST!
Send an Email to: cyber-federalist-subscribe at cpsr.org

=========================================================




From madhu at asiacontent.com  Wed Aug  9 05:08:57 2000
From: madhu at asiacontent.com (Madhu Menon)
Date: Wed Aug  9 05:08:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] one more XML question...
In-Reply-To: <200008090702.CAA14617@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000809150034.00b5aa00@203.197.60.113>

At 02:02 AM 8/9/00 -0500, you wrote:
>i am using IE's xslt (even though i want to use the java ones)...is there
>anyway to save the resulting HTML to a file? 'view source' and 'save' both
>do the xml, not the html...

If you want a server-side solution using ASP, the following code may be of 
some help. I use the technique for a CMS I developed recently that uses the 
MS XML parser.

OK. Here's the code you need.
I'm assuming that both your XML and XSL are in physical text files (my 
system uses MS SQL). You can tweak this code to fit your settings, of 
course. Pretty handy for testing. I've put some (OK, lots of) comments in 
that should make life a bit easier. Comments appear /before/ the code.

(WARNING: longish bit of code here because of all the comments, but then, 
comments are a Good Thing)


--- START CODE ---

<%

' Set variables for the XML and XSL files you want to use. Modify to taste.

XMLFile = "/input.xml"
XSLFile = "/templates/frontpage.xsl"

Const ForReading = 1, ForWriting = 2, ForAppending = 8

Set fso = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")


' Open the text file containing the XML

Set strFileInput = fso.OpenTextFile(Server.MapPath(XMLFile), 
ForReading)


' Reads the contents of the XML file into a variable named strFileInput

TextContent = 
strFileInput.ReadAll

Set fso=Nothing    ' Good habit to close connection, destroy objects as 
soon as you're done with 'em.


' Instantiate the MS XML component

set xml = Server.CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM")
xml.async = False


' OK, OK. You can also use xml.Load(Server.MapPath(XMLFile)) to read the 
XML directly from a physical file too.

xml.LoadXML(TextContent)


' Another one for reading the XSL file

set xsl = Server.CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM")


' This time I read the XSL file directly cause I didn't want to display the 
XSL
' Confusing, I know. Mail me if you want an explanation.

xsl.Load(Server.MapPath(XSLFile))


' Ah the BIG line that does the trick. This converts the XML into HTML 
using the XSL that you used. Just one line. Seriously.

strGeneratedHTML = xml.TransformNode(xsl)


' And THIS is what you wanted to do; write the HTML to a text file. In this 
case, called "default.htm"

Set fso = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
Set HTMLFile = fso.OpenTextFile(Server.MapPath("/default.htm"), ForWriting, 
True)
HTMLFile.Write strGeneratedHTML
HTMLFile.Close

' Clean up after yourself

Set fso = Nothing

         ' Uncomment the line below if you want to spit out the XML in its 
pure form to the browser
         ' Response.Write TextContent

         ' Uncomment the line below if you want to spit out the generated 
HTML to the browser
         ' Response.Write strGeneratedHTML

         ' Voila!



%>

----- END CODE -----

That's pretty much it. Holler if you want some help. You were looking for a 
server-side solution, right?

Cheers,

Madhu



<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
Webmaster, India.CNET.com
http://India.CNET.com
The source for computers and technology





From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Aug  9 05:33:42 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Aug  9 05:33:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] CSS for Mac and PC
In-Reply-To: <93A7B5EFAA22D4119C8400105A9CA61615A0B4@EXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMMELHDHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Marlene Bruce [marlene.bruce at colemandesign.com] suggested:

> -----Original Message-----
> Whew.

Whew, indeed!

> Okay, so I ended up creating 4 style sheet versions which would be
> served after doing a browser detect. After doing some testing (Mac vs.
> Windows, Navigator vs. IE), I came up with:

So have you got a browser detect page and then four versions of the site
with the 'correct' stylesheet linked or have you got it scripted so that
there's just one set of pages, all of which test for the browser then select
the stylesheet to apply accordingly?

> I don't know whether your situation allows for browser detect and various
> style sheets, but it can be a great and simple solution if your
> backend can
> be set up to handle it. I ended up using 9pt for IE5, nothing (revert to
> default font size, which would be equal to 1em) for all Mac v.4.x
> browsers,
> and .7em for Win v.4.x browsers. Of course, the sizes just
> mentioned are for
> general content to be readable, and in all cases the font size can be
> changed by the user to allow for variations in users' eyesight.

That's what we're aiming for.  The iMac arrives (we're told) next Tuesday so
we can horrify ourselves with a look at how our sites look on Macs!

> I'd actually be curious to have someone comment on my choices. I tested on
> Mac and Win, in various 4.x and 5.x browsers, and my solutions seemed to
> work well.
>
> Richard (or anyone), if you care to see my style sheets let me
> know and I'll
> send them off-list.

Please.  Do you have any example URLs I could look at?

> Best of luck,

Thanks


_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard H. Morris, Director, Web Designers Ltd
        http://www.web-designers.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Registered in England No 3506389
                  Registered Office:
3 Church Street Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0PH
                   Trading Address:
  4 Maden Close Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0UA
               T: +44 (0)1953 606158
               F: +44 (0)1953 606185
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/





From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Wed Aug  9 05:43:34 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Wed Aug  9 05:43:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jumbo tip + massive FW :: Icann board nominees anal
	yzis
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA2B@SBS>

Interesting indeed to those of us who are following this issue. One question
though. Where is our Headlemur (Alan Herrell) in all this? It's also
interesting to note that he's not on the list of nominees at ICANN either
(http://www.icann.org/nomcom/nominations.htm). 

Whassup Alan? Was your nomination not accepted? Is there an appeals process
or something?

According to Alan's page (http://www.lemurzone.com/campaign/how.htm) with
How to help information, there's a self-nomination phase during which time
those not nominated by the ICANN committee can seek a place.

Can you tell us some more about this Alan?



> -----Original Message-----
> From: deboute benjamin [mailto:deboute at nerdsoul.com]
> 
> 
> Beware, the FW is fairly massive, but very interesting.
> I apologize to those who don't feel concerned by this mail.
> 
> 



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Wed Aug  9 05:58:13 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Wed Aug  9 05:58:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jumbo tip + massive FW :: Icann board nominees anal
	yzis
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA2C@SBS>

Following on from my previous post, I just found where there is information
about the next stage of the election process, with the list of candidates
for the member-nomination process.
http://members.icann.org/nom.html

You'll find Alan's listing within the North America section. Member
endorsement begins from the 15th August and continues until the 31st August.

.steve

----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------



From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Wed Aug  9 07:40:50 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Wed Aug  9 07:40:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and thanks
References: <LAW-F53ss9jzE9KpmMl00002aab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <015201c001fe$dcc828c0$33311a26@shmousie>

First, thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate the advice and
encouragement (as always) -- you guys rock.

Just wanted to let you know that after much thinking and hemming and hawing
and changing my mind, I've decided to

a) point out to the lead site guy the poor coding that exists on the site
(mostly missing alt/sizing on images, but also no quotes around attributes
[which is a legacy of our recently departed programmer] and other stuff) and
let him take the information and do what he wants with it. I might be
creating more work for myself, but that's the kind of work I don't mind.

b) code the stuff I'm doing for the other guy properly, then go back and
crap it up if that's what they want

c) code my parts of the site properly, with alt tags and quotes and
lowercase and /> endings and all that good happy stuff. I have pretty free
rein with my sections (the international translations of the site, so we're
not talking about a couple of small areas here). I can't control the code
that's generated by the programming side of the group, but I can at least
make my code right.

d) lightly hunt for a nice chunky telecommuter job. In other words, if one
falls into my lap, I'll take it. But I'm not really unhappy enough to start
a big campaign. Yet. :)


l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie




From adrian at roselli.org  Wed Aug  9 08:05:51 2000
From: adrian at roselli.org (aardvark)
Date: Wed Aug  9 08:05:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and thanks
Message-ID: <001201c00202$468fe740$fcd21a26@roselli>

> From: l a u r a *^* l y n c h
>
> c) code my parts of the site properly, with alt
> tags and quotes and
> lowercase and /> endings and all that good happy

so you're coding to the XHTML spec?

i only ask because i see people throw XHTML things (/>) into
their HTML without knowing that they are actually *not*
coding to spec...

that and based on my rant a couple weeks or so ago about
XHTML
(http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20000724/001001.
html), i wonder why you chose XHTML over HTML4.01...




From lemurs at extremezone.com  Wed Aug  9 08:22:56 2000
From: lemurs at extremezone.com (the head lemur)
Date: Wed Aug  9 08:22:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jumbo tip + massive FW :: Icann board nominees analyzis
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA2C@SBS>
Message-ID: <006801c00205$56692fc0$301df5cc@sigrid>

> You'll find Alan's listing within the North America section. Member
> endorsement begins from the 15th August and continues until the 31st
August.

I am here and running as planned. In order to be an at large  member
nominee, I need to be recommended by at large members from at least 2
countries. To be placed on the ballot, I need 2% of the members from the
north American area.

**this is 423 endorsements**

the nomination phase starts on the 15th of august....

I will have more later as I am out connecting the world to the internet....

alan herrell - the head lemur
news http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
opinion http://www.lemurzone.com/edit/editorial.htm
Campaign 2000 http://www.lemurzone.com/campaign/
money for pixels http://www.lemurzone.com







From arthur at arthurnoel.com  Wed Aug  9 08:56:21 2000
From: arthur at arthurnoel.com (Arthur Noel)
Date: Wed Aug  9 08:56:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] netscape and tables
Message-ID: <018401c00209$527e1610$0701a8c0@wsarthur>

Has anyone ever seen a thing like this?

Say you have 2 tables both aligned left so they are touching side by side,
it seems that if the content of the first table is longer than that of the
second the first table's content gets chopped to the length of the second.

Only Netscape 3/4 does this (suprised?).

Any ideas on how I'd make this work?

Arthur






From dcody at oracular.com  Wed Aug  9 09:39:17 2000
From: dcody at oracular.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Wed Aug  9 09:39:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] FWD: New
Message-ID: <39915F48.CF3E966A@oracular.com>

Justa reminder folks to not use HTML formatting in your emails..

_______________________________

Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raven Shutley <eapoe299 at yahoo.com>
Subject: New
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org

--0-846930886-965769716=:29429
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi everyone!  I'm new on the list, and I've got a question for anyone
who wants to answer me: how do you put downloads on a website?  And
while we're at it, how do you make a link so it opens in a new window? 
Thanks!  -Poe



From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Wed Aug  9 10:00:34 2000
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:00:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] The Open Windows Project
Message-ID: <399171D4.FA06A7F1@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

Just FYI: http://openwindows.sourceforge.net

An excerpt:
The Open Windows Project aims to create a 100% Microsoft Windows
compatible operating system that is totally free of Microsoft
proprietary code. As it's name implies, O.W. will be completely open
source and freely re-distributable. It will recreate the desktop
environment of the upcoming Windows Millenium distribution, which is
remarkable similar to that of GXExplorer. Open Windows will draw from
current open source projects to expedite its production. These include:
GXExplorer, FreeDOS, ReactOS and WinE. You may have seen similar
projects that intend to use a modified version of Linux, etc. Open
Windows will not be a Linux distribution; it will be written Windows
compatible from the ground up. Initially the group will focus on
compatibility rather than improvement, but the goal of the project is to
create a better product than Microsoft.

</ml>



From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Wed Aug  9 10:06:28 2000
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:06:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] netscape and tables
References: <018401c00209$527e1610$0701a8c0@wsarthur>
Message-ID: <39917337.BF66D939@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

I would try nesting the two tables within a bigger table like so:

<table> <!-- main table -->
   <tr>
      <td>
      
         <table> <!-- left table -->
            ...
         </table>
         
      </td>
      <td>
         
         <table> <!-- right table -->
            ...
         </table>
         
      </td>
   </tr>
</table>
            
Of course, there are guidelines for nesting tables. I think the standing
rule of thumb is not to go beyond three nested tables, but I will
confess to bending that a little.

Hope that helps,
</ml>

Arthur Noel wrote:
> 
> Has anyone ever seen a thing like this?
> 
> Say you have 2 tables both aligned left so they are touching side by side,
> it seems that if the content of the first table is longer than that of the
> second the first table's content gets chopped to the length of the second.
> 
> Only Netscape 3/4 does this (suprised?).
> 
> Any ideas on how I'd make this work?
> 
> Arthur
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From dante at vianet.net.au  Wed Aug  9 10:16:39 2000
From: dante at vianet.net.au (dante)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:16:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] XML info...
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008090040150.14750-100000@rac7.wam.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <028101c00214$c74715e0$fd01a8c0@dante>

Try:
www.w3.org
NetlinQ - Interest Project - XML - http://www.netlinq.nl/interest/
SwTech.com - XML Tutorials - http://www.swtech.com/xml/tutorials/
The XML Files - WebDeveloper.com ? - http://www.webdeveloper.com/xml/
WDVL Introduction to XML -
http://wdvl.internet.com/Authoring/Languages/XML/Tutorials/Intro/index2.html
WebDeveloper.com's Guide to XML. -
http://www.webdeveloper.com/html/html_xml_4.html
XML Resources - http://www.jclark.com/xml/
XML.com - Tutorials - http://www.xml.com
XSLT .com - Resource page for xml , xsl , xslt tutorials -
http://www.xslt.com
Zvon XSL Tutorial -
http://www.zvon.org/HTMLonly/XSLTutorial/Books/Book1/index.html
Link to Apache XML stuff - www.apache.org

XML Spy - http://new.xmlspy.com

Thanks,
            dante

<snip>
> From: "Erik M. Sabowski" <sabowski at wam.umd.edu>
> I'm trying to learn XML, but i'm having a hard time getting any of the
> java parsers and stuff to work (LotusXSL, Xerces, XML4J ). anyone know of
> some good resources for that kind of stuff?
</snip>





From mroberto at sitetrends.com  Wed Aug  9 10:39:20 2000
From: mroberto at sitetrends.com (Michael Roberto)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:39:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms
In-Reply-To: <39917337.BF66D939@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <000d01c00217$c9a65b40$3fe0fdcc@sitetrends>

I'm looking to gather some info on browser standards outside
of the US.  Is it reasonably safe to shoot for 4.0 standards
using Netscape and IE, or should I be looking to comply with
3.0 browsers.

The primary users of this application will be business and
home users in Europe, South Africa and South America.  What
are your thoughts on this?

thanks.
mike.






From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  9 10:42:02 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:42:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] FWD: New
In-Reply-To: <39915F48.CF3E966A@oracular.com>
Message-ID: <200008091540.IAA15806@smtp2-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: Raven Shutley <eapoe299 at yahoo.com>
> 
> who wants to answer me: how do you put downloads on a website?  And

just link to the file...
	<a href="foo.zip">foo</a>...

> while we're at it, how do you make a link so it opens in a new 
window?

'target' attribute... you can use target="_new" or target="_blank", or 
even make one up, thereby naming the window:
	<a href="foo.html" target="foo>foo</a>

this is all pretty basic stuff covered in most of the beginner's books 
and web sites...



From dascott at wam.umd.edu  Wed Aug  9 10:46:10 2000
From: dascott at wam.umd.edu (David S Gray)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:46:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] netscape and tables
In-Reply-To: <018401c00209$527e1610$0701a8c0@wsarthur>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008091040240.25685-100000@rac3.wam.umd.edu>

so if i understand correctly, you have:

<table ... align=left width=50>...</table>
<table ... align=left width=40>...</table>

and the first one is getting truncated on the right side by 100?
kinky...
could you do:

<table align=left width=90><tr>
 <td width=50><table ... width=50>...</table></td>
 <td width=40><table ... width=40>...</table></td>
</tr></table>

?
if that doesn't choke netscape on the nested tables, that should work
quite nicely

HTH

 -dave


On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Arthur Noel wrote:

> Has anyone ever seen a thing like this?
> 
> Say you have 2 tables both aligned left so they are touching side by side,
> it seems that if the content of the first table is longer than that of the
> second the first table's content gets chopped to the length of the second.
> 
> Only Netscape 3/4 does this (suprised?).
> 
> Any ideas on how I'd make this work?
> 
> Arthur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From arthur at arthurnoel.com  Wed Aug  9 10:55:38 2000
From: arthur at arthurnoel.com (Arthur Noel)
Date: Wed Aug  9 10:55:38 2000
Subject: [thelist] netscape and tables
References: <018401c00209$527e1610$0701a8c0@wsarthur> <39917337.BF66D939@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <01bd01c0021a$02db36e0$0701a8c0@wsarthur>

> > Say you have 2 tables both aligned left so they are touching side by
side,
> > it seems that if the content of the first table is longer than that of
the
> > second the first table's content gets chopped to the length of the
second.

> I would try nesting the two tables within a bigger table like so:

I don't really want to nest them - the reason I'm trying to do it like this
is that we have a very slow ad server and I'm trying to separate the page
content from the ads.

Thanks though.

A





From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  9 11:12:55 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Aug  9 11:12:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms
In-Reply-To: <000d01c00217$c9a65b40$3fe0fdcc@sitetrends>
References: <39917337.BF66D939@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <200008091610.JAA29086@smtp4-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From:  "Michael Roberto" <mroberto at sitetrends.com>
>
> I'm looking to gather some info on browser standards outside
> of the US.  Is it reasonably safe to shoot for 4.0 standards
> using Netscape and IE, or should I be looking to comply with
> 3.0 browsers.

depends on what you mean by 'comply'... make it 
accessible/usable to older browsers?  alternate browsers? hell, 
WebTV, screen readers, etc.?  or make it usable *only* by the 
4.x+ with full JavaScript expectations?

> The primary users of this application will be business and
> home users in Europe, South Africa and South America.  What
> are your thoughts on this?

my thoughts are in no way correlated with stats... i hope some of 
the non-US members of the list can give their own real-world 
experience in tracking down that info...

otherwise, time to start looking around all those places that claim 
to know how many users are on the internet, you know, Forrester 
and the like...



From elizabeth.ksi at ksinet.com  Wed Aug  9 11:16:05 2000
From: elizabeth.ksi at ksinet.com (Elizabeth Walter)
Date: Wed Aug  9 11:16:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash and Netscape- Problems implementing
Message-ID: <00b401c0021c$33dc7680$10a705c6@ksinet.com>

Hi,

I've been having some trouble getting my Flash movie to show up properly in
Netscape, and I'm hoping that one of you Flash experts out there could help
me.  When I view the page in Navigator 4.7, I am told I need to go get the
plugin (which I have).  In IE, everything is fine.  The code I am using is
exactly as specified on Macromedia's website in the "How to put Flash on
your webpage" help section.  The code is as follows:

<OBJECT classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000"
codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.ca
b#version=4,0,2,0"
  width=400 height=250>
<PARAM name="Movie" value="/flash/movie_graphic.swf">
       <EMBED src="/flash/movie_graphic.swf"
pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_
Version=ShockwaveFlash">
      </EMBED>
              <NOEMBED>
                     <IMG src="/images/showsites2_flat.gif" width=382
height=244>
              </NOEMBED>
</OBJECT>

The actual page is at http://www.showsitesinc.com/index_new.html .

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Elizabeth

<tip>
Color Picker: http://www.chunting.com/download/index.shtml

Allows you to pick any color from your desktop, windows, browser, anything,
and it gives you the hex codes for it.
A very helpful tool.
</tip>




From rob at dieseldesign.com  Wed Aug  9 11:48:17 2000
From: rob at dieseldesign.com (Robert Stewart)
Date: Wed Aug  9 11:48:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash4 crashing NS when hosted by IIS
In-Reply-To: <000701c001b6$0ca9bca0$fcd21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <NEBBIJJOGLKBBBGILLBLIEIMDAAA.rob@dieseldesign.com>

Thanks for the link. It doesn't solve my problem, however. It appears that
you are using flash to call other flash. My issue is that these are pages
that use flash for particular nav item and they call other .htm pages. It
still crashes on my end when hosted by IIS. Any other ideas?

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of aardvark
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:58 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Flash4 crashing NS when hosted by IIS


> From: Robert Stewart
>
> I have an embedded flash that uses the geturl
> command to navigate the site
> and when you click one of these it causes NS to
> crash. I believe it's an
> invalid page fault error. This only seems to
> occur when the page is hosted
> by IIS, however. I've had success hosting this
> with apache.

no problems IME... as an example:
http://archres.com/

use the A|r net link in the bottom left...

no design or implementation crits needed -- not my design or
recommended technology...


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From peter at vardus.com  Wed Aug  9 11:57:58 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Wed Aug  9 11:57:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] spectra
In-Reply-To: <200008091610.JAA29086@smtp4-cm.mail.eni.net>
References: <000d01c00217$c9a65b40$3fe0fdcc@sitetrends>
 <39917337.BF66D939@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000809175354.020cf2a0@smtp.vardus.net>

What resources are there to get to know spectra from a higher level (not 
the nitty gritty coldfusion programming). I need to learn how it works and 
how to define proper specs for it ('business manager') I know about object 
models and stuff, I need to learn specifically about spectra's object 
model, and workflows and ...
thanks for any url's, mailing lists, ...
Peter




From redstar at clix.pt  Wed Aug  9 13:08:00 2000
From: redstar at clix.pt (.redstar.)
Date: Wed Aug  9 13:08:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash and Netscape- Problems implementing
In-Reply-To: <00b401c0021c$33dc7680$10a705c6@ksinet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJFFKJALAJHHGJCGNEEGFDJAA.redstar@clix.pt>

Elizabeth,

Your server is not giving the proper mime type for Flash content.
Check the Macromedia Flash Online help for this. Search under mime type
settings.

.redstar.




From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Wed Aug  9 13:33:02 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Wed Aug  9 13:33:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and thanks
References: <001201c00202$468fe740$fcd21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <009401c0022f$ab4ad320$565edbd1@nerve>

> so you're coding to the XHTML spec?
>
> i only ask because i see people throw XHTML things (/>) into
> their HTML without knowing that they are actually *not*
> coding to spec...


As often as possible. I'm not going back and updating old code (and I'm not
hybridizing old code when I add new stuff, either), but when I'm starting
fresh I figure why not code to the current W3C spec (XHTML 1.0) since it
doesn't break browsers or do anything nasty, and I find the strictness (all
lowercase, quote all attributes, close all tags, etc.) is great for
maintenance. One thing I find frustrating is that *editors* don't support it
yet (eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to make
it do lowercase as far as I can tell), nor do they validate for it. Maybe
next upgrade.

l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ cyberwhirled
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450 AIM: cyberminkie





From sam at sam-i-am.com  Wed Aug  9 13:39:01 2000
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam-I-Am)
Date: Wed Aug  9 13:39:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and 
 thanks
References: <001201c00202$468fe740$fcd21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <3991A53F.D5AB5A4E@sam-i-am.com>

just the fact that your HTML 4.01 is well formed (equals xhtml
transitional) leaves the door open for future manipulation of your code,
in the xml stylee. If it doesn't take you any more time than usual
(which it shouldn't if you are hand coding), I'd say do it.

It's still tag soup, but it's good soup :)

Sam

aardvark wrote:
> 
> > From: l a u r a *^* l y n c h
> >
> > c) code my parts of the site properly, with alt
> > tags and quotes and
> > lowercase and /> endings and all that good happy
> 
> so you're coding to the XHTML spec?
> 
> i only ask because i see people throw XHTML things (/>) into
> their HTML without knowing that they are actually *not*
> coding to spec...
>



From CConrad at VSCat.com  Wed Aug  9 13:44:50 2000
From: CConrad at VSCat.com (Conrad, Christopher)
Date: Wed Aug  9 13:44:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] spectra
Message-ID: <5A223F8E6A58D31198CA00805F952B1303718C64@VSC-EXCHANGE>

http://www.houseoffusion.com/hof/lists/Spectra_Talk.cfm

Chris

Christopher Conrad
Victoria's Secret Catalogue
Limited Technology Services - New Media
Senior.Programmer.Analyst
http://www.VictoriasSecret.com
614.337.5653
cconrad at vscat.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Van Dijck [mailto:peter at vardus.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 12:56 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] spectra


What resources are there to get to know spectra from a higher level (not 
the nitty gritty coldfusion programming). I need to learn how it works and 
how to define proper specs for it ('business manager') I know about object 
models and stuff, I need to learn specifically about spectra's object 
model, and workflows and ...
thanks for any url's, mailing lists, ...
Peter


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com  Wed Aug  9 14:21:54 2000
From: kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com (kev.skindrill)
Date: Wed Aug  9 14:21:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms
References: <000d01c00217$c9a65b40$3fe0fdcc@sitetrends>
Message-ID: <00ac01c00237$1d6b4500$b7664bc2@y3s2e7>

> I'm looking to gather some info on browser standards outside
> of the US.  Is it reasonably safe to shoot for 4.0 standards
> using Netscape and IE, or should I be looking to comply with
> 3.0 browsers.

Michael
            If I may be able to stroke the ego of one of our fellow
evoltians for a moment, I seem to remember a similar thread a while ago and
aardvark said that he coded to the HTML 2 spec and then added all the bells
& whistles like mouse overs for browsers that can handle it (that was the
general gist of it). This struck me as one of the best pieces of advice I
have ever read on the List. I use 1st Page 2000 for my coding & if you click
the "Lib" tag on the side toolbar it gives you the option to see all the
tags for HTML 2, 3.2 & 4 as well as Netscape 1-4, I.E. 2 and 3, Cold Fusion,
and Web TV. All in all a very useful package. If memory serves it is
available free from http://www.evrsoft.com/1stpage

K




From rwhite at edverify.com  Wed Aug  9 14:54:02 2000
From: rwhite at edverify.com (Ron White)
Date: Wed Aug  9 14:54:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] HS - lowercase was  Bad Code vs Keeping Job
In-Reply-To: <009401c0022f$ab4ad320$565edbd1@nerve>
Message-ID: <LOELLPJBCANPIBAEEFLFCEDFDEAA.rwhite@edverify.com>

(eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to make
it do lowercase as far as I can tell), nor do they validate for it. Maybe
next upgrade.

Sure there is... Ya just need to ask :-)

Options >> Settings >> HTML >> Check box that says insert all tags as
lowercase.

I'm using version 4.5.1

HTH,
Ron





From lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  9 15:29:26 2000
From: lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com (Eduardo Dominguez)
Date: Wed Aug  9 15:29:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
In-Reply-To: <LOELLPJBCANPIBAEEFLFCEDFDEAA.rwhite@edverify.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBICFMPKDDLIDDGPLGKEDPCAAA.lalo_dominguez@yahoo.com>

A friend from work had some problems with an ASP
page that had a form that contains a layer where
the form objects (textfields, buttons, etc) are contained.

The problem is that somehow the data of the form doesnt
seem to get posted. I assume its because of some problem
between layers and forms but i cant seem to figure
out the problem and how to fix it.

We decided to not use layers, but i still hate the
fact that I dont know what causes  the page
to not post the form data to the apropriate asp
page.

Anyone know what is going on ? how can i fix this ?

Thanks in advance

-----Mensaje original-----
De: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]En nombre de Ron White
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles 9 de Agosto de 2000 1:52 PM
Para: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Asunto: [thelist] HS - lowercase was Bad Code vs Keeping Job


(eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to make
it do lowercase as far as I can tell), nor do they validate for it. Maybe
next upgrade.

Sure there is... Ya just need to ask :-)

Options >> Settings >> HTML >> Check box that says insert all tags as
lowercase.

I'm using version 4.5.1

HTH,
Ron



---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From tim at fudgehead.com  Wed Aug  9 15:56:32 2000
From: tim at fudgehead.com (Tim Glen)
Date: Wed Aug  9 15:56:32 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
In-Reply-To: <NEBBICFMPKDDLIDDGPLGKEDPCAAA.lalo_dominguez@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B5B72127.1C5C%tim@fudgehead.com>

> A friend from work had some problems with an ASP
> page that had a form that contains a layer where
> the form objects (textfields, buttons, etc) are contained.

Have you tried containing the form tag within the layer as well? It doesn't
surprise me that putting a layer inside a form would split the elements from
it. It strikes me somewhat like putting a form tag between a <tr> and <td>.
It's kind of nowhereville.

tim glen




From chris at fuseware.com  Wed Aug  9 16:06:31 2000
From: chris at fuseware.com (Chris Evans)
Date: Wed Aug  9 16:06:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
In-Reply-To: <NEBBICFMPKDDLIDDGPLGKEDPCAAA.lalo_dominguez@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c00245$71a1ec10$b4be170a@limited.com>

Forms cannot span layers.

Chris Evans
chris at fuseware.com
http://www.fuseware.com


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Eduardo Dominguez
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 5:23 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...


A friend from work had some problems with an ASP
page that had a form that contains a layer where
the form objects (textfields, buttons, etc) are contained.

The problem is that somehow the data of the form doesnt
seem to get posted. I assume its because of some problem
between layers and forms but i cant seem to figure
out the problem and how to fix it.

We decided to not use layers, but i still hate the
fact that I dont know what causes  the page
to not post the form data to the apropriate asp
page.

Anyone know what is going on ? how can i fix this ?

Thanks in advance

-----Mensaje original-----
De: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]En nombre de Ron White
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles 9 de Agosto de 2000 1:52 PM
Para: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Asunto: [thelist] HS - lowercase was Bad Code vs Keeping Job


(eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to make
it do lowercase as far as I can tell), nor do they validate for it. Maybe
next upgrade.

Sure there is... Ya just need to ask :-)

Options >> Settings >> HTML >> Check box that says insert all tags as
lowercase.

I'm using version 4.5.1

HTH,
Ron



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From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  9 16:34:01 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Aug  9 16:34:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
In-Reply-To: <NEBBICFMPKDDLIDDGPLGKEDPCAAA.lalo_dominguez@yahoo.com>
References: <LOELLPJBCANPIBAEEFLFCEDFDEAA.rwhite@edverify.com>
Message-ID: <200008092132.OAA30757@smtp5-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: "Eduardo Dominguez" <lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com>
>
> A friend from work had some problems with an ASP
> page that had a form that contains a layer where
> the form objects (textfields, buttons, etc) are contained.
> 
> The problem is that somehow the data of the form doesnt
> seem to get posted. I assume its because of some problem
> between layers and forms but i cant seem to figure
> out the problem and how to fix it.

when you change the <form> method to 'get', what is appended to 
the URL?  all your variables?

if not, your HTML is hosed...

if so, then your ASP is hosed...

if it's your HTML, make sure everything is in the form and named 
correctly...

if it's your HTML, make sure you've named everything correctly, 
and try requesting *everything* and iterating through to see if it's 
even gotten it...




From xslf at xslf.com  Wed Aug  9 16:39:38 2000
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Wed Aug  9 16:39:38 2000
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms
References: <000d01c00217$c9a65b40$3fe0fdcc@sitetrends>
Message-ID: <008501c0024a$e4be8320$dc9bfea9@xslf>

I manage a few sites in Hebrew for audience in Israel.
The browser breakdown is as follows:
IE5- 46%
IE4- 22%
Netscape 4- 23%

Keep in mind though that my sites give services/offer guides to people who
whish to build small web sites (mainly personal homepages but not only) so
they might be slightly more up to date then the "average" (Or not?)

Shoshannah Forbes
http://www.forbes.co.il

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Roberto" <mroberto at sitetrends.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 6:37 PM
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms


> I'm looking to gather some info on browser standards outside
> of the US.  Is it reasonably safe to shoot for 4.0 standards
> using Netscape and IE, or should I be looking to comply with
> 3.0 browsers.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  9 16:44:25 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Aug  9 16:44:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] International Browser Norms
In-Reply-To: <00ac01c00237$1d6b4500$b7664bc2@y3s2e7>
Message-ID: <200008092142.OAA29632@smtp4-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From:  "kev.skindrill" <kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com>
> 
>             If I may be able to stroke the ego of one of our fellow
> evoltians for a moment, I seem to remember a similar thread a while
> ago and aardvark said that he coded to the HTML 2 spec and then added
> all the bells & whistles like mouse overs for browsers that can handle
> it (that was the general gist of it). This struck me as one of the
> best pieces of advice I have ever read on the List. I use 1st Page

thanks, i'm quite glad to hear that...

i also use that method for CSS (for now, that'll change once N6 
gets true market share and the 3.x users fall away some more)... i 
code using (ack) font tags and all - make it look just right without 
*any* CSS, and then start wrapping in your classes and applying 
your global styles...

it isn't the best solution for all circumstances, but for my client-
base it certainly is (one client surfs on NN3.02 on the Mac and 
always complains that text is too small and has too little leading)...



From martin at members.evolt.org  Wed Aug  9 17:32:22 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  9 17:32:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and thanks
Message-ID: <E13MeMi-000Ldc-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

l a u r a *^* l y n c h wrote on 9/8/00 7:27 pm

>One thing I find frustrating is that *editors* don't support it
>yet (eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to make
>it do lowercase as far as I can tell)
BBEdit lets you set tag case as a pref and also has a macro to toggle.

Cheers
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: martin at members.evolt.org              PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
  tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418                snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
 http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=9&uid=32            Edinburgh, Scotland




From drifterlee at iavbbs.com  Wed Aug  9 17:56:51 2000
From: drifterlee at iavbbs.com (Dreamscape Design, Inc.)
Date: Wed Aug  9 17:56:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re:  the Aquent salary guides
References: <LAW-F262kQA5PHyjzw300001b72@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c00254$18f39960$37a345d1@d64100b>

Hi all:

I am so relieved to hear that US salaries are higher. Most of the post to
the web design lists are from the UK and seemed really low compared to what
I was hearing here in Michigan, US. Around here, entry level web designers
start at around $50,000 a year at least and it goes up. I live north of
Detroit, and the pay is best in the Detroit area. When I started out, I was
told to charge $50 an hour and that is considered low by my experienced
friends, even though I am a newbie. I do all my own graphics illustrations
and photography - the entire ball of wax - myself, but my layout skills are
not up to par yet and I am working on that with a buddy. Nevertheless, you
are right about the US. Even mediocre designers can get big bucks.
Sherrie Grady
sherrie at dreamscapeinteractive.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Tara Cleveland <taracleveland at hotmail.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:35 PM
Subject: [thelist] Re: the Aquent salary guides


> Hi all,
>
> I know I'm a little late (like a few centuries late) in adding to this
> discussion, but oh well...
>
> This is just a little addition to the discussions around the Aquent salary
> guides. The reason the hourly rate and the salaried rate is so different
has
> partially to do with Aquent's own fees. If they hire someone out hourly
they
> pay the worker a little more than a salaried job, but the charge the
client
> company extra for all their added administration costs (believe me the
> workers don't see wages like that! $120 per hour, I wish). The salaried
rate
> is a guideline for when Aquent places a worker permanently (therefore they
> have less administration costs but they still retain about 30% of the
quoted
> salary).  I once went to an interview for a permanent placement and the
> salary I would get would be a little less than the hourly rate I receive,
> around 55-60K Canadian, but Aquent  would charge the company more like
> 75-85K.
>
> The thing that gets me is that the numbers are the same for Canadian and
> American dollars, even though the American dollar is worth waaayyyy more.
> The 55K Canadian salary (worth more like 35K American) would be 55K
American
> if I lived just over the border. Of course, I'd rather live here, but I
wish
> we got paid on par. It always boggles my mind how much more American
> salaries are.
>
> Just in case anyone was wondering.
>
> Tara Cleveland
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>




From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Aug  9 19:25:47 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Aug  9 19:25:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB32111720124AD@gate.ti3.com>

how about some code??

sgd
--
think safely

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eduardo Dominguez [mailto:lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com]
> 
> We decided to not use layers, but i still hate the
> fact that I dont know what causes  the page
> to not post the form data to the apropriate asp
> page.
> 
> Anyone know what is going on ? how can i fix this ?
> 



From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Wed Aug  9 21:27:29 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Wed Aug  9 21:27:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Another Javascript question
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008092159390.75232-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

Hello!  I've got another javascript question for any that would care to
help out.

I'm trying to create a photo album.  My goal is to have an image inside a
table cell, with a row of numbers under it.  A mouseover (or click, it
doesn't matter, really) on one of the numbers will change the image inside
the table cell.  I've got this down, no problem.
The part that's making me pull my hair out is that I also would like a
button below the row of numbers that, when clicked, will open a new window
with a large version of whatever image is currently being viewed.  I've
been using an if statement to cover this (if the image source is
equal to a certain picture, then open the large version)
The problem I'm currently facing is that when I have more than 1 if
statement, a click on the button opens all images that are used in any of
the if statements!  I've used several different methods - writing out long
if statements, passing an assigned variable through a hidden form field,
assigning the pertinent images to array values and repeating steps
1-10....you get the idea.  Nothing seems to work!  It all ends up opening
all of the images in separate windows at the same time.

For some reason, I've got this feeling that the answer is either really
easy or impossible to achieve.

Here's the latest incarnation of the code I'm using (without the comment
tags, of course).  It's not elegant by any measure, but I'd at least like
it to do its job!  :-)

<!--

<html>
<head>
<script language="javascript">
var stuff = new Array("somepic-sm.jpg", "someotherpic-sm.jpg");
var thing = new Array("somepic-lg.jpg", "someotherpic-lg.jpg");

function change(name, source) {
	document[name].src = source;
	}
function viewlarge() {
	x = document.flip.src;
	if (x = stuff[0]) { window.open(thing[0]) };
	if (x = stuff[1]) { window.open(thing[1]) };
	}
</script>
</head>
<body>

<img src="blank.gif" height="135" width="135" name="flip">
<br>
<a href="stuff" onMouseOver="change('flip', stuff[0])">stuff</a>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="stuff" onMouseOver="change('flip', stuff[1])">stuff</a>

<br>
<input type="button" value="view" onClick="viewlarge();">

</body>
</html>

-->

Thanks a lot, and sorry for the long message!
Dan





From eric at schwa.com  Wed Aug  9 22:01:30 2000
From: eric at schwa.com (Eric Costello)
Date: Wed Aug  9 22:01:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] Another Javascript question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008092159390.75232-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>
Message-ID: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECIAEILEIAA.eric@schwa.com>

Change this:

	if (x = stuff[0]) { window.open(thing[0]) }

to this:

	if (x == stuff[0]) { window.open(thing[0]) }

"=" is an assignment operator. What you are doing is assigning the value of
stuff[0] to "x", and that evaluates to true all the time, thus all the
windows are opening.

"==" is a comparison operator that tests for equality, and that is what you
want here.

Eric

Eric Costello
eric at schwa.com
http://glish.com




From Anthony at Baratta.com  Wed Aug  9 22:02:13 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Wed Aug  9 22:02:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Another Javascript question
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008092159390.75232-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>
Message-ID: <39921AC7.92E31873@Baratta.com>

Why not on image flip - set a variable with the file name of the 'big' version of the
image, then use that name with the new browser window?

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Wed Aug  9 22:53:29 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Wed Aug  9 22:53:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Another Javascript question
In-Reply-To: <39921AC7.92E31873@Baratta.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008092336490.75936-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

Talk about speedy replies!  Thanks a lot!  Setting the variable as Anthony
said worked just fine.....I can stop pulling my hair out until the next
problem comes along.

And now, a tip to make up for that horrendously long mail from earlier....

<tip type="learning javascript">
Some people, such as myself, just can't learn a language by reading a
book.  It can help, but it won't allow you to achive "guru" status.  I
personally own three different books on javascript, and they are each good
in their own right, but none of them seem to tell me the answer to my
problems.  So what's a person to do?
Play.  Find a site with a bunch of free scripts (my personal favorite is
javascriptsource.com), grab them, and play with them.  Use books for
reference and to find out things like why one would use just a = as
opposed to doubling your fun with ==, but the experience that a programmer
needs comes from making stuff that's useful...or at least fun.

Sure, I'm not a guru, but I'm getting there :-)

</tip>

Thanks again!
Dan

> Why not on image flip - set a variable with the file name of the 'big' version of the
> image, then use that name with the new browser window?




From KarenB at FrontierSoftware.com.au  Wed Aug  9 22:56:17 2000
From: KarenB at FrontierSoftware.com.au (Karen Bowen)
Date: Wed Aug  9 22:56:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
Message-ID: <91543B2058D0D211A6B30090271C8E6B94C8AF@neptune.internal.frontier>

Hi everyone,

I'm new here.  :-)

I am working on a page that needs to be able to display dynamic data as it
gets it.  (It's linked to transactional backend engine).

Currently we use a sluggish system that completely rewrites the page
whenever new data arrives.  I would like to do this using div's, and
dynamically rewrite them using IE's innerText/innerHTML properties (our
clients use IE only).

I'd also like to be able to create more divs on-the-fly as they become
needed, and then be able to hide & display the various layers in order to
keep data available and reduce the number of calls to the backend.

I'm having a bit of trouble however.  The thing that seems to be stopping me
is that I can't create new Divs after the initial loading of the page is
complete, so I guess my first question is if this is, in fact, possible?

Thanks in advance,
Karen




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Wed Aug  9 23:22:47 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Wed Aug  9 23:22:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008092159390.75232-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu> <39921AC7.92E31873@Baratta.com>
Message-ID: <001201c00283$51694a40$0200000a@pavilion>

I would like to build a database to hold several hundred images relating to
kitchen design and remodel.
The images have all been optimized so that is taken care.

I have seen sites that display large volumes of images and I have read about
people doing it with ASP'pages
to reduce the amount of work needed.

Have no experience with ASP except for a tutorial on ASP 2.0 that I recently
purchased!
I have minor experience with Access 97 as I took a course that showed how to
use the office software.
Have minor experience in C programming "not C+" as I finished an
introductory course in the spring quarter.
Part 1 of 3 in C programming. So I do know alittle about conditionals,
flags, switches, if-else, and else-if.

I have worked my way thru several books in DHTML and javascript, but haven't
done anything with VBscript or Visual Basic.

Well that's the what I can and can't do routine. Now what I can do is work
thru any material, ideas, insights,
HELP, that anyone can pass my way interms of how I can begin this project.

The ideas are simple enough:
1)Sort all images using the software that I have;
2)Build the dataBase structure to hold the pictures "access 2000 MS"
3)Using javascript and html build the page and navigation template for the
ASP pages
4)Find out how to use ASP to accomplish the task
      well that depends on what is entailed etc.........   :-)

I know what type of interface I would like to build not that it makes much
of a difference.
A simple counter that would move forward and back, adding and subtracting
one from the current image.
The HTML pages will use thumbnails to improve load times and will allow a
top loading window  to view the larger images so that no additional burden
will be placed on load times. Also the Main viewer will have the navigation
so that the client "user" can add or subtract one from the current image to
view the current file of images in a slide show presentation.

any insight or help would be appreciated
links to relevant data

thanx
krr




From joelm at citycent.com  Wed Aug  9 23:32:33 2000
From: joelm at citycent.com (Joel Morris)
Date: Wed Aug  9 23:32:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] SSL Questions
Message-ID: <HJEKJLKDBKMALNNKCGFPIEMOCPAA.joelm@citycent.com>

For a client site the digital certificate is installed and working just fine
if I create a link with "https://..."

My questions are these:

1. Is there a way (other than with some kind of meta refresh) to force the
browser to open SSL even if they don't type "https://..."?

I.e., if a user tries to go to http://www.somedomain.com/index.htm it
automatically redirects them to https://www.somedomain.com/index.htm

2. I use relative references for most of my links inside the site
(checkout.asp, not http://www.somedomain.com/checkout.asp). Let's say that
on completing checkout.asp (which is under SSL) they are going to get
directed to thankyou.htm - how do I make it so that page is _not_ under SSL?
I.e., it would go to http://www.somedomain.com/thankyou.htm, not https://...

(It never ceases to amaze me how much I _don't_ know after all these years!)

Thanks, Joel




From james at designframe.com  Thu Aug 10 00:13:43 2000
From: james at designframe.com (James Spahr)
Date: Thu Aug 10 00:13:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <91543B2058D0D211A6B30090271C8E6B94C8AF@neptune.internal.frontier>
Message-ID: <B5B7B194.14067%james@designframe.com>

on 8/10/00 12:02 AM, Karen Bowen at KarenB at frontiersoftware.com.au wrote:

> I'm having a bit of trouble however.  The thing that seems to be stopping me
> is that I can't create new Divs after the initial loading of the page is
> complete, so I guess my first question is if this is, in fact, possible?

I've tried to do this several times. I find it works for a couple more DIVs,
but after that, its not possible. I've gotten around the problem by creating
a cache on unused DIVS at load time and storing their ID's in an array.

I find IE/Mac is a whole easier to do new Div creation with than IE/Win. Its
impossible in NN 4.x

HTH.

James.





From Anthony at Baratta.com  Thu Aug 10 00:35:27 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu Aug 10 00:35:27 2000
Subject: [thelist] SSL Questions
References: <HJEKJLKDBKMALNNKCGFPIEMOCPAA.joelm@citycent.com>
Message-ID: <39923881.1D2FEDC3@Baratta.com>

Answer 1 - In order to switch between SSL and non-SSL pages you must use the full
URL. Klunky but necessary.

Two - In order to make sure your users are at the proper site (HTTPS versus HTTP),
you will need to use the Web Server lock down those pages you want to maintain as
HTTPS only and HTTP only. Apache and IIS and Netscape all work differently.

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Thu Aug 10 02:54:58 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Thu Aug 10 02:54:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA32@SBS>

Hi Kevin,

Based on the (fairly extensive) spec you have given, I would recommend from
the outset that you don't need a database to make this happen!

If you think about it, your interface of using a forward and back navigation
system, along with a numbering system for the images, means that the
structure you require is really very simple. If you were looking to have a
system with a large amount of meta data for each image, plus a *much* larger
amount of images, then there might be some good reason to put everything in
a database. As it is, you would be better off using a normal directory
structure for the images.

One important question that isn't covered - will there often be changes to
the set of images? If you are going to be removing images from the list
fairly often, then you'll need to think about how you keep the naming
structure intact. Otherwise, I seem to recall that I wrote an article about
a JavaScript based image gallery system that sounds as though it would fit
your requirements directly:

Yup, here it is - http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=567

If you need to update the ordering of the images fairly often, or have a
requirement for easy upload and removal of images, then you would almost
certainly be better off looking at one of the existing solutions that you
can find on the web. 

Here's a couple of links to get you started!
http://www.aspin.com/func/search?tree=aspin/webapps/content&pg=5&qry=image+g
allery&cat=all
http://www.aspin.com/func/search?tree=aspin/webapps/content&pg=4&qry=image+g
allery&cat=all

Try searching for "ASP image gallery" or similar to build up more
possibilities.

Good luck

.steve

----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------


> -----Original Message-----
> From: kevin raleigh [mailto:krr at ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: den 10 augusti 2000 06:28
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
> 

> 



From oliver at lineham.co.nz  Thu Aug 10 03:20:01 2000
From: oliver at lineham.co.nz (Oliver Lineham)
Date: Thu Aug 10 03:20:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nominations
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000810200606.009e1a00@mail.paradise.net.nz>

If you haven't signed up for ICANN At Large membership yet, what are you 
waiting for?  http://members.icann.org/

I've finally received my PIN by post and completed my registration.

But I'm finding some of the figures alarming.  According to this press release:
  http://www.icann.org/announcements/icann-pr31jul00.htm
here's the total membership at the end of last month, by region:

  Africa - 787
  Asia/Australia/Pacific - 93,782
  Europe - 35,942
  Latin America/Caribbean - 6,486
  North America - 21,596

Interestingly, the highest number of registrations is from 
Asia/Australia/Pacific (my region).

Yet, the number of At Large nominations received for this region is ..   two.
http://members.icann.org/nom/cp/AP.html

I was rather hoping to have a bigger choice of people to vote for.  Perhaps 
the number will increase. I will wait and see.

The deadline for individuals to submit their name to ICANN as a candidate 
for member-nomination is this monday, the 14th.

</ol>

(and remember, thelist's head lemur alan herrel is running in the North 
American region)

____________________________________________________
     v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
  po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
  phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz



From roger.newbrook at mari.co.uk  Thu Aug 10 03:39:09 2000
From: roger.newbrook at mari.co.uk (Roger Newbrook)
Date: Thu Aug 10 03:39:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] PC equivalent of NEW YORK font
Message-ID: <00Aug10.094543gmt.27777@cebrus.ace.co.uk>

	ok, have managed to narrow my search down but still can't resolve
this one. is there a PC equivalent for the MAC font New York?



From reda at rsdesigns.com  Thu Aug 10 05:18:38 2000
From: reda at rsdesigns.com (Reda)
Date: Thu Aug 10 05:18:38 2000
Subject: [thelist] Review of Web and print publishing
In-Reply-To: <006801c00205$56692fc0$301df5cc@sigrid>
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA2C@SBS>
 <006801c00205$56692fc0$301df5cc@sigrid>
Message-ID: <p04310104b5b830b42262@[192.168.1.9]>

Review of Web and Print Publishing
http://rsdesigns.com/

Thursday, 10 August, 2000

A Message to Web Designers: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It (nytimes.com)
By JEFFREY SELINGO. When Salon.com revamped its Web site in May, 
readers greeted it with hundreds of e-mail complaints. They 
criticized the horizontal scrolling, the small type and the headlines 
that no longer linked directly to articles. Within days, Salon's 
editor, David Talbot, posted a note to readers saying, "You win!" and 
the site reverted to some of its old design.

Dreamweaver Ultradev Review (webtechniques.com) and Features (macromedia.com).
Macromedia Dreamweaver UltraDev is a new product designed to let you 
quickly connect Web pages to databases, preview live data in the 
workspace with Live Data Preview, and easily add server-side logic, 
navigation, and interactivity.

Web sites are locking out the disabled (cnn.com)
In recent years, the physical world has adapted to the needs of the 
disabled. But of more than 30 major shopping, search, auction, news, 
and financial Web sites contacted, only a handful admitted any 
interest in -- much less any action taken toward -- tailoring the 
sites for accessibility.

W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Mission: The W3C's commitment to lead the Web to its full potential 
includes promoting a high degree of usability for people with 
disabilities. The Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), in coordination 
with organizations around the world, is pursuing accessibility of the 
Web through five primary areas of work: technology, guidelines, 
tools, education & outreach, and research & development.

Wednesday, 9 August 2000

Digital workflow: managing the process (Journal of Electronic Publishing)
By LINDA BEEBE and BARBARA MEYERS. In the last half-century, however, 
the pace of change in printing and publishing technology has become 
dynamic. Now changes in technology come about in a matter of years, 
sometimes even months. And with those changes, the steps in the 
process of publication may now be controlled, tracked, and subsumed 
into one continuous electronic system often called digital workflow.

The journalist in the chat room (Journal of Electronic Publishing)
By JEFFREY R. YOUNG. Scholarly publishers hoping to add new 
interactive features to their Web sites would do well to look to the 
live chat sessions run by major on-line newspapers. The following 
analysis of one newspaper's on-line chat events is provided as a way 
for academic publishers to think about how such a feature could 
enliven scholarly publishing.

Separating Body from Soul (webtechniques.com)
By Michael Floyd. XML was supposed to change the face of publishing, 
but has it become a wolf in sheep's clothing? Michael shows you how 
to look past the hype and get started with the reality.

Migrating from HTML to XML (webtechniques.com)
By Peter Fischer. Wouldn't you know it? HTML is quickly becoming a 
legacy format and you're about to be stuck with thousands of legacy 
documents. Relax, Peter has the tools to help you convert to XML with 
ease.

Monday, 7 August 2000

Errors and Typos: Are There More Online? (mediainfo.com)
By Steve Outing. It's a commonly held belief that Web news sites 
contain more errors than printed news publications. This is a topic 
that arises periodically on the Internet discussion lists that I host 
(Online-News and Online-Writing), and the prevailing complaint you 
hear is that online news sites are sloppier than printed newspapers 
and news magazines...

Large Print Books: I Can See Clearly Now (publishersweekly.com)

By Lucinda Dyer. With major houses seeing the bigger picture, 
large-print publishing is experiencing significant growth and renewed 
importance What do publishers envision as they peer into the future? 
These days, what many of them behold is...16-point type. With one 
American turning 50 every seven minutes and 13.5 million Americans 
over 45 already having trouble reading the small print on everything 
from menus to the yellow pages, the large-print book is finally 
coming into its own.

A milestone for SVG (MacWEEK.com)

By Stephen Beale. The Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) format reached a 
major milestone earlier this week when the Worldwide Web Consortium 
(W3C) released the SVG specification as a "candidate recommendation." 
The W3C, which governs HTML, XML and other Web standards, is now 
inviting developers to implement the format and report any unforeseen 
issues back to the organization, said Chris Lilley, who chairs the 
W3C's SVG working group.




From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Thu Aug 10 07:31:28 2000
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Thu Aug 10 07:31:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: [the list] Bad Code vs Keeping Job -- Desicion and thanks
References: <E13MeMi-000Ldc-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <003601c002c6$bb7d38e0$5c311a26@shmousie>

I wrote:
> >One thing I find frustrating is that *editors* don't support it
> >yet (eg, Homesite inserts hex colors using caps and there's no way to
make
> >it do lowercase as far as I can tell)
Martin responded:
> BBEdit lets you set tag case as a pref and also has a macro to toggle.

Homesite also lets you set tag case (and toggle, and do a global case
change), but that doesn't affect the hex color codes for some reason.

l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ c y b e r w h i r l e d
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450  AIM: cyberminkie





From martin at members.evolt.org  Thu Aug 10 07:35:49 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (martin burns)
Date: Thu Aug 10 07:35:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nominations
Message-ID: <3992A12E.00024E.00358@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>

ol wrote:

> But I'm finding some of the figures alarming.  According to this press
> release:
>    http://www.icann.org/announcements/icann-pr31jul00.htm 
> here's the total membership at the end of last month, by region:
> 
>   Africa - 787
>   Asia/Australia/Pacific - 93,782
>   Europe - 35,942
>   Latin America/Caribbean - 6,486
>   North America - 21,596
> 
> Interestingly, the highest number of registrations is from 
> Asia/Australia/Pacific (my region).

and the highest population penetration is Europe.

Can't be hard if you're a candidate for Africa (almost a Rotten Borough)

Cheers
Martin



From wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk  Thu Aug 10 07:37:40 2000
From: wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk (William Anderson)
Date: Thu Aug 10 07:37:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] SSL Questions
Message-ID: <E4FFD8CEE1C7D21188AC00105AAFD06CCD7BB0@bd1_mail.wsatkins.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Anthony Baratta [SMTP:Anthony at Baratta.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:07 AM
> To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject:	Re: [thelist] SSL Questions
> 
> Answer 1 - In order to switch between SSL and non-SSL pages you must use
> the full
> URL. Klunky but necessary.
> 
or use URL rewriting so you can keep relative-ish URLs ... ISTR the mod_ssl
docs cover something like this, as I was doing an apache+mod_ssl install
last week.

-- 
William Anderson, WS Atkins IT Scotland, Glasgow
E-mail: wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)141 332 7030 x2216 - Fax: +44 (0)141 331 2481



From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 10 08:40:56 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Thu Aug 10 08:40:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
Message-ID: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>

Hi all,

I tried to join ICANN yesterday, only to find out I was too late to vote in 
the elections. This is from the <https://members.icann.org/faq.htm#join> 
page on the ICANN website:

---
"Can I still join?
For purposes of this year's At Large elections, the registration period 
began on February 25 and closed July 31. Future registration periods will be 
announced through the At Large membership web site."
---

Oh well, the early bird gets the worm ;-) Good luck anyway Oliver!

Tara


Oliver Lineham <oliver at lineham.co.nz> wrote:
<snip>
If you haven't signed up for ICANN At Large membership yet, what are you 
waiting for? http://members.icann.org/
</snip>
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From nicholls at u030.aone.net.au  Thu Aug 10 09:10:29 2000
From: nicholls at u030.aone.net.au (David Nicholls)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:10:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
References: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3992B75F.90B25F37@u030.aone.net.au>

Tara Cleveland wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I tried to join ICANN yesterday, only to find out I was too late to vote in
> the elections.
.....
> Oh well, the early bird gets the worm ;-) Good luck anyway Oliver!
> 

What was maddening was that the ICANN sites were completely overloaded
for some days before the close off date. I tried about 30 times during
the week before close off, over a variety of connections, at all hours
of day and night, trying the English and (I think) Spanish and German
sites, no luck once past the entry page...  Grrr...

DN in Oz
(who also likes the ellipsis :-)
-- 
____________________________________

David Nicholls
Nicholls Communications
nicholls at world.net
http://www.dcnicholls.com/
____________________________________



From oliver at lineham.co.nz  Thu Aug 10 09:15:41 2000
From: oliver at lineham.co.nz (Oliver Lineham)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:15:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000811021028.00b52d40@mail.paradise.net.nz>

At 13:38 10/08/00 +0000, you wrote:

>---
>"Can I still join?
>For purposes of this year's At Large elections, the registration period 
>began on February 25 and closed July 31. Future registration periods will 
>be announced through the At Large membership web site."
>---
>
>Oh well, the early bird gets the worm ;-) Good luck anyway Oliver!

Golly.  I really don't like ICANN!  I think they are irresponsible, and 
this limited registration period is another example of this.

Given the deadline, I expect the total At Large members given in the press 
release will not increase much at all.

Hardly any members.  Hardly any nominees.

Pathetic!

____________________________________________________
     v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
  po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
  phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz



From lemurs at extremezone.com  Thu Aug 10 09:27:29 2000
From: lemurs at extremezone.com (the head lemur)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:27:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
References: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601c002d7$8609fe80$071df5cc@sigrid>

There has been discussion on voting. The snail mail portion of the
membership process is way behind the online portion of the registration
process. I have e-mailed ICANN to find out if your registration date(online)
will determine your eligibility to vote. more soon!

As the howling voice of the independant designer community, one other thing
needed to keep me on the ballot is a nomination from someone outside the
North american area..
any takers?

This will be interesting as the conflict of interest rules come to the front
for the nominees chosen by ICANN.  Lawrence Lessig seems to be the only one
at this point who really has no ties to the ICANN organization, either as a
member organization or as a creditor/sponsor...

god i love the web!

alan herrell - the head lemur
news http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
opinion http://www.lemurzone.com/edit/editorial.htm
Campaign 2000 http://www.lemurzone.com/campaign/
money for pixels http://www.lemurzone.com





From oliver at lineham.co.nz  Thu Aug 10 09:39:29 2000
From: oliver at lineham.co.nz (Oliver Lineham)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:39:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
In-Reply-To: <3992B75F.90B25F37@u030.aone.net.au>
References: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000811023532.00b561a0@mail.paradise.net.nz>

At 00:08 11/08/00 +1000, you wrote:

>What was maddening was that the ICANN sites were completely overloaded
>for some days before the close off date. I tried about 30 times during
>the week before close off, over a variety of connections, at all hours
>of day and night, trying the English and (I think) Spanish and German
>sites, no luck once past the entry page...  Grrr...

Rest assured that yesterday, despite it being well after the close-off date 
for new registrations, it took three attempts at putting my PIN in (the 
thing sent by post) before it would work without timing out.

Again:  Pathetic!

Are we supposed to trust these people with the internet infrastructure?

</ol>

____________________________________________________
     v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
  po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
  phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz



From mccreath at ak.net  Thu Aug 10 09:47:24 2000
From: mccreath at ak.net (David McCreath)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:47:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] PC equivalent of NEW YORK font
References: <00Aug10.094543gmt.27777@cebrus.ace.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002901c002d9$6392d5a0$752eed18@anchorageak.net>

I don't think so. My understanding was that New York was the early Mac
equivalent for Times, and Apple developed it (along with Geneva, the early
Mac equivalent for Helvetica) because they didn't want to license the fonts.
New York's not exactly the same because they optimized it for screen display
and dot-matrix printers by increasing the x-height and m-width (and they did
the same with Geneva in relation to Helvetica).

Anybody else?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Newbrook" <roger.newbrook at mari.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:45 AM
Subject: [thelist] PC equivalent of NEW YORK font


> ok, have managed to narrow my search down but still can't resolve
> this one. is there a PC equivalent for the MAC font New York?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From mwick at kuaa.wpo.ukans.edu  Thu Aug 10 09:59:16 2000
From: mwick at kuaa.wpo.ukans.edu (Mike Wick)
Date: Thu Aug 10 09:59:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] layers and forms...
Message-ID: <s9927c81.005@kugw.cc.ukans.edu>

Greetings:

Does anyone have the rules/guidelines/link to follow on the placement of forms in HTML? I have forms that span multiple tables and forms that begin inside nested tables. They seem to work fine in NS and IE on Mac and PCs. Could I be making a mistake?

Thanks in advance

Mike




From eric at schwa.com  Thu Aug 10 10:13:41 2000
From: eric at schwa.com (Eric Costello)
Date: Thu Aug 10 10:13:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <B5B7B194.14067%james@designframe.com>
Message-ID: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com>

Karen wrote:
>I'm having a bit of trouble however.  The thing that seems to be stopping
me
>is that I can't create new Divs after the initial loading of the page is
>complete, so I guess my first question is if this is, in fact, possible?

James wrote:
>>I find IE/Mac is a whole easier to do new Div creation with than IE/Win.
Its
>>impossible in NN 4.x

That is not true, it is possible to create new Divs in all the 4+ browser.
You must use javascript to do document.write()s, but you can do it
endlessly.

But your bigger question Karen, has to do with the differences between
client side and server side scripting, which has been the topic of
discussion here on the list for a while. The only way to do what you want to
do (assuming I am understanding your correctly) is with a hidden frame that
makes periodic calls back to the server for any new information, and then,
upon finding any, manipulates the contents of your visible frame through
javascript. If you don't need steady polling of your server, and only need
to update its contents upon user interaction, you can have your visible
frame intercept clicks (returning "false" on link clicks and form submits)
and pass them along to your hidden frame, which can then query your server
and (as above) update the visible frame through javascript. Much uglier
would be having your hidden frame reload every x seconds to look for new
info on the server.

Does that make sense to you? These are hacks, designed to subvert the
document based orientation of the web and turn it into an application
platform.

Eric

Eric Costello
eric at schwa.com
http://glish.com




From james at designframe.com  Thu Aug 10 10:25:09 2000
From: james at designframe.com (James Spahr)
Date: Thu Aug 10 10:25:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com>
Message-ID: <B5B840E4.14139%james@designframe.com>

on 8/10/00 11:10 AM, Eric Costello at eric at schwa.com wrote:

> That is not true, it is possible to create new Divs in all the 4+ browser.
> You must use javascript to do document.write()s, but you can do it
> endlessly.

Can you show me some code? I just re-wrote a whole bunch of javascript in
PHP to run server side because I couldn't get it to work in Netscape.

James.





From michmill at mailandnews.com  Thu Aug 10 10:41:18 2000
From: michmill at mailandnews.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu Aug 10 10:41:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com>
References: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com>
Message-ID: <16964691651.20000810113707@mailandnews.com>

EC> That is not true, it is possible to create new Divs in all the 4+ browser.
EC> You must use javascript to do document.write()s, but you can do it
EC> endlessly.

Actually, in my experience, Netscape cannot do a document.write to an
already rendered page.  Document.write can be called, but it can only
write to a new window, not to an existing one that is already sitting
in the browser.  The only way I know of to get a similar effect is to
show and hide layers with content already in them, making it appear as
though new content is being generated.  IE, of course can change the
content of DIVs at will, but NN4 just can't--its a really annoying
limitation.

>>These are hacks, designed to subvert the
>>document based orientation of the web and turn it into an application
>>platform.

Exactly.  The type of application you are looking for would probably
be more effective if it was written in Java or some similar platform.
This would allow the server to trigger changes because you could keep
an active communication line.  As it is, you're trying to change the
function of the browser--it will probably work, but will present you
with more problems later on.

Michael Miller





From eric at schwa.com  Thu Aug 10 10:48:50 2000
From: eric at schwa.com (Eric Costello)
Date: Thu Aug 10 10:48:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <B5B840E4.14139%james@designframe.com>
Message-ID: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKJEIAA.eric@schwa.com>

I wrote:
>>That is not true, it is possible to create new Divs in all the 4+ browser.
>>You must use javascript to do document.write()s, but you can do it
>>endlessly.

James wrote:
>Can you show me some code? I just re-wrote a whole bunch of javascript in
>PHP to run server side because I couldn't get it to work in Netscape.

Here is a good tutorial on how to do it:
http://www.dansteinman.com/dynduo/en/createdestroy.html

Just ignore the stuff at the bottom starting at "The createLayer() and
destroyLayer() Functions" which is about using Steinaman's dynAPI.

I was wrong about doing it with document.write()s, BTW (sorry!). You have to
talk to the "layer" object in NS, and use the "insertAdjacentHTML" method in
IE, but you /can/ create new Divs after page load.

Eric

Eric Costello
eric at schwa.com
http://glish.com




From arthur at arthurnoel.com  Thu Aug 10 10:52:03 2000
From: arthur at arthurnoel.com (Arthur Noel)
Date: Thu Aug 10 10:52:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
References: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com> <16964691651.20000810113707@mailandnews.com>
Message-ID: <05a201c002e2$ae31d620$0701a8c0@wsarthur>

> Actually, in my experience, Netscape cannot do a document.write to an
> already rendered page.  Document.write can be called, but it can only
> write to a new window, not to an existing one that is already sitting
> in the browser.  The only way I know of to get a similar effect is to
> show and hide layers with content already in them, making it appear as
> though new content is being generated.  IE, of course can change the
> content of DIVs at will, but NN4 just can't--its a really annoying
> limitation.

In my experience NN4 can quite happily change the content of <div>s. As long
as they are absolutely positioned (and thus in the document.layers array)
you can document.write to the layer which does the same thing as IE's
innerHTML

A




From peter at genps.demon.co.uk  Thu Aug 10 11:05:52 2000
From: peter at genps.demon.co.uk (Peter Small)
Date: Thu Aug 10 11:05:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECICEKEEIAA.eric@schwa.com>
References: <B5B7B194.14067%james@designframe.com>
Message-ID: <v04003a14b5b87e31b740@[158.152.26.28]>

Eric Costello wrote (see full post below),

>These are hacks, designed to subvert the
>document based orientation of the web and turn it into an application
>platform.
>

It's interesting that you see this as a hack. When this technique of hidden
frames was first explained to me it was explained with an apology that it
was an awkward and inelegant way around a problem. I didn't see it this way
at all. To me it was the key to designing Web pages with an object oriented
strategy. I was quite excited because this is exactly what you do with OOPS.

In OOPS you create an object in RAM that is programmed to carry out certain
instructions when it is sent a message. By creating many different objects
in RAM, you can build quite complex systems that pass messages around and
carry out sohisticated and flexible tasks.

If you think of a hidden window as an object in RAM that is programmed to
do certain things when you send it appropriate messages, that "hack" turns
into a powerful programming concept. If you have worked with C++ or Lingo
in Director you can fully appreciate the significance of this hidden window.

peter
http://www.avatarnets.com




>Karen wrote:
>>I'm having a bit of trouble however.  The thing that seems to be stopping
>me
>>is that I can't create new Divs after the initial loading of the page is
>>complete, so I guess my first question is if this is, in fact, possible?
>
>James wrote:
>>>I find IE/Mac is a whole easier to do new Div creation with than IE/Win.
>Its
>>>impossible in NN 4.x
>
>That is not true, it is possible to create new Divs in all the 4+ browser.
>You must use javascript to do document.write()s, but you can do it
>endlessly.
>
>But your bigger question Karen, has to do with the differences between
>client side and server side scripting, which has been the topic of
>discussion here on the list for a while. The only way to do what you want to
>do (assuming I am understanding your correctly) is with a hidden frame that
>makes periodic calls back to the server for any new information, and then,
>upon finding any, manipulates the contents of your visible frame through
>javascript. If you don't need steady polling of your server, and only need
>to update its contents upon user interaction, you can have your visible
>frame intercept clicks (returning "false" on link clicks and form submits)
>and pass them along to your hidden frame, which can then query your server
>and (as above) update the visible frame through javascript. Much uglier
>would be having your hidden frame reload every x seconds to look for new
>info on the server.
>
>Does that make sense to you? These are hacks, designed to subvert the
>document based orientation of the web and turn it into an application
>platform.
>
>Eric
>
>Eric Costello
>eric at schwa.com
>http://glish.com
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !






From eric at schwa.com  Thu Aug 10 11:41:45 2000
From: eric at schwa.com (Eric Costello)
Date: Thu Aug 10 11:41:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
In-Reply-To: <v04003a14b5b87e31b740@[158.152.26.28]>
Message-ID: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECIEEKNEIAA.eric@schwa.com>

>It's interesting that you see this as a hack. When this technique of hidden
>frames was first explained to me it was explained with an apology that it
>was an awkward and inelegant way around a problem. I didn't see it this way
>at all. To me it was the key to designing Web pages with an object oriented
>strategy. I was quite excited because this is exactly what you do with
OOPS.

I agree it is exciting, useful, powerful, even fun. But it is a hack because
it is relying on technologies that were never intended to relay application
information. HTTP is a document transfer protocol, and browsers are document
viewers; hidden frame techniques subvert those intended uses in very cool
way, but it's still a subversion. However, it seems that with the rise of
XML as the chosen format for data transfer between objects and applications,
document transfer has become the new paradigm for passing application data.
Things are changing, but still: browsers were not designed to be used this
way. And I don't mean that in a stodgy way, like browsers are meant for one
thing and one thing only, and damn you if you try to change things. What I'm
saying is that because they weren't designed as application platforms, you
run into a ton of problems when you try to use them as such.

My intellectual satisfaction with the hidden frame technique takes a second
seat to the broad range of implementation problems that crop up in
applications built around such trickery. But that's not to say I don't like
to build them!

Also: let's hope that Mozilla changes all this, since they are building it
primarily as an application platform, secondarily as a browser.

Eric

Eric Costello
eric at schwa.com
http://glish.com




From corth at casey.org  Thu Aug 10 11:57:35 2000
From: corth at casey.org (Christopher Orth - HQ)
Date: Thu Aug 10 11:57:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
Message-ID: <5589DCD43093D311AE4D00508B12192B011A0960@HQ07.casey.org>

Some thoughts for you.....

> I would like to build a database to hold several hundred 
> images relating to

If you have "several hundred" images, you should really use a database
rather than regular links, OR you could use some form of ASP script that
would dynamically build a list(s) of contents out of a directory.  

> template for the

Template is the key here..... you are right on track with that thinking.
Building individual pages for several hundred images will make you old
before your time!

> A simple counter that would move forward and back, adding and 

Is a counter a requirement for this project?  If you have that many images
to display, your users will really want to have them broken up into
categories or smaller relative groups of some kind.  You will have almost
nobody actually sit and click "next" 200 times.  But if you do need a
counter function, you could build a unique number for each image into the
database and then display it as part of your template.  It would eliminate
the need for linear travel, but still allow it if necessary.  And it would
give your users a way to identify a picture in an absolute way.  "I want
cabinet 157 with the color from 38".

> The HTML pages will use thumbnails to improve load times and 

As a side note, if you are adding a database, you are not improving load
times.  Especially from Access.  That's not always a bad thing, but be sure
to work in extra load time from a database into your plans and design.  If
absolute speed is a requirement, don't use the database.

Another thought.  Are you REALLY setting up a "slide show" with several
hundred images?  Is this a special focused use of the internet, like using
it as an online catalog rather than a printed one?  Even if I was looking
through a lot of details and wanted to, I would bum out on clicking "next"
several hindered times!  You might want to think about automating the slide
show and giving the users a pause button of some sort.




From aileen at stonebikini.com  Thu Aug 10 14:10:21 2000
From: aileen at stonebikini.com (Aileen Wrothwell)
Date: Thu Aug 10 14:10:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
Message-ID: <002701c002fe$e658c560$0200000a@aileen>

Hey people,

I'm at the end of my rope here (I know, I know, tie a knot in it).  I'm
wondering if other folks have ideas about what's going on because I may have
just been working on this site for too long and can no longer distinguish
forest from trees.

My situation:
I am working on a site with replacement mouseovers.  (The buttons are blue
and the mouseover is red.) Yesterday, (before during and after FTPing) I
viewed the site through Netscape 4.6 and IE4 and everything looked great.
The blue buttons were all where they were supposed to be, and the red
mouseovers popped up just when and as they were supposed to. Historically,
I've had to go in and change the extensions from .gif to .GIF in FTP when
broken links show up after publishing, and this has always solved any
problems.  I did this yesterday and all was going swimmingly.

My problem:
This morning, when I loaded the pages, they still looked and worked great
locally, but the buttons are wacky when I view them online.  In Netscape,
the buttons are completely invisible, no broken links showing, or
alternately, the blue buttons (image a) appear, but the red (image b)
mouseover never shows up.  In IE, the blue buttons (image a) show up as
broken links, then they all appear (but not at the same time, alas), and
then they all disappear and show as broken links again. I should add that
the IE process takes an excruciatingly long time, and even I can't tell when
it's finished loading; it will say "Done" at the bottom, and then when I
hover over the link, I get another message that says it's still loading.  If
I can't tell when it's done, how in the world will visitors know it?  I
tried renaming the file extensions as I mentioned above, but it's just not
working.

The site is under construction where it currently lives at

http://www.stonebikini.com/canapsindex.html

Anyone have any suggestions?  More thanks than you can imagine, Aileen

Aileen R. Wrothwell
Stone Bikini
http://www.stonebikini.com
aileen at stonebikini.com











From erika at seastorm.com  Thu Aug 10 14:23:16 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Thu Aug 10 14:23:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000811023532.00b561a0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
References: <LAW-F568peKIf5jJSzh00008f2c@hotmail.com>
 <4.2.0.58.20000811023532.00b561a0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <v04220802b5b89c3d21f4@[209.213.150.244]>

>Are we supposed to trust these people with the internet infrastructure?

I also tried to register & was told the server was overloaded... so 
far it has effectively shut me out.  hey, I'm no superhero, just a 
mom with a modem.

This is not democracy.

Well, I just went back to http://www.icann.org/ and various flavors 
thereof & I get a "no such device or address."

It sounds like others have had similar, and worse problems than I. 
Though I'm in the middle of various personal crises, the little voice 
in my head is screaming "grassroots action."

If someone starts it, I'll be the first jump in.

Erika

erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From madhu at asiacontent.com  Thu Aug 10 14:32:09 2000
From: madhu at asiacontent.com (Madhu Menon)
Date: Thu Aug 10 14:32:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
In-Reply-To: <200008101237.HAA23843@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000810202731.00b595a0@203.197.60.113>

At 07:37 AM 8/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I would like to build a database to hold several hundred images relating to
>kitchen design and remodel.
>The images have all been optimized so that is taken care.

Kevi,

I'll write more later (gotta run now), but here's a warning: BAD idea to 
hold images in a database. Real bad. Bloats the database and increases the 
retrieval time, among other things. Rudy will probably tell you the same 
(and more) too.

Better solution: Keep a varchar field (Text in Access) and store only the 
physical location of the file. Small database; real quick retrieval and 
serving of images.

Cheers,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
Webmaster, India.CNET.com
http://India.CNET.com
The source for computers and technology





From michmill at mailandnews.com  Thu Aug 10 14:45:13 2000
From: michmill at mailandnews.com (Michael Miller)
Date: Thu Aug 10 14:45:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
In-Reply-To: <002701c002fe$e658c560$0200000a@aileen>
References: <002701c002fe$e658c560$0200000a@aileen>
Message-ID: <9279331582.20000810154107@mailandnews.com>

This one's easy.  The server is running UNIX and is case sensitive.
Your HTML has the regular images with the capital GIF extensions.
Your rollovers have lowercase gif extensions.  If you make it so all
the images in your HTML have lowercase extensions and all your images
on the server do, you should be fine.
You can also change all the gifs in the HTML and javascript to GIFs (search and
replace) and make sure the ones on the server are all capitalized.

MM





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Aug 10 14:49:25 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu Aug 10 14:49:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
References: <002701c002fe$e658c560$0200000a@aileen>
Message-ID: <11ca01c00368$2ffd85c0$0500a8c0@alphashop.com>

aileen,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Aileen Wrothwell <aileen at stonebikini.com>
:
: Historically, I've had to go in and change the extensions
: from .gif to .GIF in FTP when broken links show up after
: publishing, and this has always solved any problems.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*always* use lowercase, both in filenames and your references to those files
in your html.

also, just for kicks, you might wanna take a look at alittle simple preload
and rollover solution:

http://members.evolt.org/jeff/code/preload_n_rollover/

good luck,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org





From aileen at stonebikini.com  Thu Aug 10 16:00:29 2000
From: aileen at stonebikini.com (Aileen Wrothwell)
Date: Thu Aug 10 16:00:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
Message-ID: <00ac01c0030e$50e53d00$0200000a@aileen>

Hey people,

Thank you for all of your great responses to my plea for help with
rollovers.  Just a little update on my situation:  Several folks mentioned
the case sensitivity of Unix servers.  I write my HTML in lowercase,
including the extensions, so the case sensitivity is usually only
troublesome to me when I FTP to the server and somewhere in this process,
the image file extensions get changed to caps. I just go in and change them
back and all is groovy.  (Does anyone happen to know WHY this happens during
FTPing? Just curious.)  Today, I uploaded everything again, and nothing was
working, no matter how I changed the cases.

However, someone mentioned that there were caps in the extensions in my
HTML.  I checked it knowing full well that this wasn't true, and then there
it was--a whole string of GIFs instead of gifs.  A friend of mine had shared
this particular section of code with me, and I didn't even check it, but
just plugged it in.  Ugh.  I was right in the beginning: I was missing the
trees in the forest.  Thank goodness you're all willing to come to the
rescue once  again.  Thanks again for your help and speedy replies! Aileen.

Aileen R. Wrothwell
Stone Bikini
http://www.stonebikini.com
aileen at stonebikini.com

P.S. Someone also mentioned that this is a cache issue, where the images
aren't getting downloaded until you actually mouse over them.  Netscape
viewing works now, but even after fixing the extensions, I still have to
mouse over the images before they appear in IE4.  But at least they're not
disappearing after the mouseover anymore.  A.


My original question:

My situation:
I am working on a site with replacement mouseovers.  (The buttons are blue
and the mouseover is red.) Yesterday, (before during and after FTPing) I
viewed the site through Netscape 4.6 and IE4 and everything looked great.
The blue buttons were all where they were supposed to be, and the red
mouseovers popped up just when and as they were supposed to. Historically,
I've had to go in and change the extensions from .gif to .GIF in FTP when
broken links show up after publishing, and this has always solved any
problems.  I did this yesterday and all was going swimmingly.

My problem:
This morning, when I loaded the pages, they still looked and worked great
locally, but the buttons are wacky when I view them online.  In Netscape,
the buttons are completely invisible, no broken links showing, or
alternately, the blue buttons (image a) appear, but the red (image b)
mouseover never shows up.  In IE, the blue buttons (image a) show up as
broken links, then they all appear (but not at the same time, alas), and
then they all disappear and show as broken links again. I should add that
the IE process takes an excruciatingly long time, and even I can't tell when
it's finished loading; it will say "Done" at the bottom, and then when I
hover over the link, I get another message that says it's still loading.  If
I can't tell when it's done, how in the world will visitors know it?  I
tried renaming the file extensions as I mentioned above, but it's just not
working.

The site is under construction where it currently lives at

http://www.stonebikini.com/canapsindex.html

Anyone have any suggestions?  More thanks than you can imagine, Aileen













From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Aug 10 16:20:13 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu Aug 10 16:20:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
References: <00ac01c0030e$50e53d00$0200000a@aileen>
Message-ID: <128001c00374$dc456940$0500a8c0@alphashop.com>

aileen,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Aileen Wrothwell <aileen at stonebikini.com>
:
: I write my HTML in lowercase, including the extensions,
: so the case sensitivity is usually only troublesome to me
: when I FTP to the server and somewhere in this process,
: the image file extensions get changed to caps. I just go in
: and change them back and all is groovy.  (Does anyone
: happen to know WHY this happens during FTPing?)
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

double-check your ftp program's preferences and make sure it's set to force
filenames to lowercase.  then you won't have this headache at all.

good luck,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org





From amckaig at masterfile.com  Thu Aug 10 16:29:00 2000
From: amckaig at masterfile.com (Angie McKaig)
Date: Thu Aug 10 16:29:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] response.redirect with frames (ASP question)
Message-ID: <ECENIIIJCHNJJHFGIAOEMEFDCDAA.amckaig@masterfile.com>

Hi everyone,

Quick question here: I need to use response.redirect in one of my ASP pages,
but it's in a frameset; how do I specify the target frame (in the case, I
want to bust out of the frames, so I need to set the target="_top",
somehow...

Thanks in advance!

Angie McKaig

 fun @ http://www.pathwaytodarkness.com/
work @ http://www.masterfile.com/





From aileen at stonebikini.com  Thu Aug 10 16:29:28 2000
From: aileen at stonebikini.com (Aileen Wrothwell)
Date: Thu Aug 10 16:29:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Slow-Load/No-Load Images
References: <00ac01c0030e$50e53d00$0200000a@aileen> <128001c00374$dc456940$0500a8c0@alphashop.com>
Message-ID: <010401c00312$54625900$0200000a@aileen>

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for that!  And thanks also for the preload rollover solution.  Best
regards, Aileen.

Aileen R. Wrothwell
Stone Bikini
http://www.stonebikini.com
aileen at stonebikini.com


> double-check your ftp program's preferences and make sure it's set to
force
> filenames to lowercase.  then you won't have this headache at all.





From algrimes at acs.ucalgary.ca  Thu Aug 10 17:38:48 2000
From: algrimes at acs.ucalgary.ca (Tony Grimes)
Date: Thu Aug 10 17:38:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10008101631510.123498-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>

     Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
online anynmore. TIA

.tony





From donnajj at gwi.net  Thu Aug 10 17:56:59 2000
From: donnajj at gwi.net (Donna Jones)
Date: Thu Aug 10 17:56:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
References: <Pine.A41.4.10.10008101631510.123498-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <399332CA.A4E83411@gwi.net>

Hi Tony:  try this for load time issues:
http://www.netmechanic.com/cobrands/zdnet/loadcheck/ 

they also have a html checker, see menu over on the side.

hth
Donna

Tony Grimes wrote:
> 
>      Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
> page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
> online anynmore. TIA

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Jones: 207.772.0266
Home Site:  http://www.westendwebs.com
Have you been to the hunger site ( http://thehungersite.com/ ) today?



From aileen at stonebikini.com  Thu Aug 10 17:59:53 2000
From: aileen at stonebikini.com (Aileen Wrothwell)
Date: Thu Aug 10 17:59:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
References: <Pine.A41.4.10.10008101631510.123498-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <014e01c0031e$f8dfe9a0$0200000a@aileen>

>      Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
> page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
> online anynmore. TIA

Tony, 

Here's one I use: 

http://websitegarage.netscape.com/

Just click on "Tune Up." Best regards, Aileen 

Aileen R. Wrothwell
Stone Bikini
http://www.stonebikini.com
aileen at stonebikini.com










From Anthony at Baratta.com  Thu Aug 10 18:01:22 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu Aug 10 18:01:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
References: <Pine.A41.4.10.10008101631510.123498-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <39933163.4C7F0EA2@Baratta.com>

Tony Grimes wrote:
> 
>      Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
> page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
> online anynmore. TIA

http://websitegarage.netscape.com/

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Thu Aug 10 18:19:24 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Thu Aug 10 18:19:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
References: <Pine.A41.4.10.10008101631510.123498-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <39933778.9B7B4C50@libertysurf.co.uk>

> >Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
> >page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
> online >anymore. TIA

I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard http://websitegarage.netscape.com is
good.
HTH
Mr Dave




From Kingorbitao at aol.com  Thu Aug 10 18:52:18 2000
From: Kingorbitao at aol.com (Kingorbitao at aol.com)
Date: Thu Aug 10 18:52:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Registrars
Message-ID: <26.93f04a4.26c4999c@aol.com>

Hey, which registrar is you guys' favorite/the cheapest?



From need-4-speed-ski at erols.com  Thu Aug 10 19:05:44 2000
From: need-4-speed-ski at erols.com (Theodore Serbinski)
Date: Thu Aug 10 19:05:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Registrars
In-Reply-To: <26.93f04a4.26c4999c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c00327$870f2b20$aa6eaccf@default>

> Hey, which registrar is you guys' favorite/the cheapest?

registrar in terms of domain names?

than i would have to say joker.com has the cheapest prices i've seen, coming
in around $13 per year i believe (US currency that is).

-ted




From gstrange at e-tsi.com  Thu Aug 10 19:52:45 2000
From: gstrange at e-tsi.com (Greg Strange)
Date: Thu Aug 10 19:52:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] Registrars
In-Reply-To: <26.93f04a4.26c4999c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B5B8B80F.4BA0%gstrange@e-tsi.com>

on 8/10/00 6:49 PM, Kingorbitao at aol.com at Kingorbitao at aol.com wrote:

> Hey, which registrar is you guys' favorite/the cheapest?

For domains?  I like DirectNIC.com for the convenience and gandi.net for the
price ($11).  Check out the TUCOWS registrars for cheap prices.

./greg
-- 
The self-same moment I could pray;
And from my neck so free
The Albatross fell off, and sank
Like lead into the sea.




From amanda at gawow.com  Thu Aug 10 20:11:43 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 10 20:11:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT Whatever happened to High Five?
In-Reply-To: <EF8480F87336D311AC1F00A0C9FC03320959CEF0@PIBCRMEXH001>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKAEHGDBAA.amanda@gawow.com>

I just came across this thread, last message 6/30/00, and thought there
would be answers... current answers. You see, I think High Five died again.
My last message from babble was on 8/4/00 and I just got a message that I
sent the list bounced back to me.

So... anyone got any gossip on that? Dish!

- amanda




From gsd at mac.com  Thu Aug 10 22:53:57 2000
From: gsd at mac.com (George Donnelly)
Date: Thu Aug 10 22:53:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
In-Reply-To: <39933778.9B7B4C50@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B5B9A7D7.142FB%gsd@mac.com>

http://www.tracert.com/en/
is also very useful

Regards,
GEORGE DONNELLY
george at cyklotron.com
http://cyklotron.com/
Knowledge is, indeed, that which, next to virtue, truly and essentially
raises one man above another. --Joseph Addison

>>> Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
>>> page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
>> online >anymore. TIA




From gsd at mac.com  Thu Aug 10 22:54:58 2000
From: gsd at mac.com (George Donnelly)
Date: Thu Aug 10 22:54:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Registrars
In-Reply-To: <26.93f04a4.26c4999c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B5B9A825.142FC%gsd@mac.com>

gandi.net
11euros i think
they explicitly state that you own the domain

Regards,
GEORGE DONNELLY
george at cyklotron.com
http://cyklotron.com/
Nobody makes a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only
do a little. --Edmund Burke

> Hey, which registrar is you guys' favorite/the cheapest?




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 10 23:17:26 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Aug 10 23:17:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] RE: help with dhtml and layers in NN
In-Reply-To: <39937CD2261.6F17VIDMAN@planet.net.au>
Message-ID: <001401c0034a$1c90f8a0$73d21a26@roselli>

posting this back to the correct list...

> From: [ vidman design ]
>
> Ok.. here we go. Im working on my newsite and its
> my first attempt at dhtml and layers.
>
> Looks great on IE5 on a PC but i try to open it
> in NN4.5 PC and it crashes the browser.

yep, hosed my NN...

> No idea of how it looks on a mac yet either.
>
> http://www.vidmandesign.com/odysseyhouse/test1.html

so, you wanna know why it does this in NN?  simple, you're
using DHTML and layers, probably some CSS-P in there...
NN4.x just isn't going to do what you want, it'll break...

how to fix it? dump the DHTML and layers?  can't really see
what the site does since NN keeps crapping...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 10 23:22:35 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Aug 10 23:22:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] response.redirect with frames (ASP question)
In-Reply-To: <ECENIIIJCHNJJHFGIAOEMEFDCDAA.amckaig@masterfile.com>
Message-ID: <001801c0034a$d39b2fc0$73d21a26@roselli>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angie McKaig
>
> Quick question here: I need to use
> response.redirect in one of my ASP pages,
> but it's in a frameset; how do I specify the
> target frame (in the case, I
> want to bust out of the frames, so I need to set
> the target="_top", somehow...

i don't believe you can set a 'target'... the server kicks
back a 300 (i think) message telling the browser that the
page has moved and to go get it...

how are you trying to do it?  if you have a page in frame1
that you want to go to a different page, still in frame1,
then just do it like normal...

if you have a page in frame1 that you want to affect a page
in frame2, then response.redirect isn't your answer...

got a specific example, or a URL?




From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Thu Aug 10 23:36:37 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Thu Aug 10 23:36:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] RE: help with dhtml and layers in NN
In-Reply-To: <001401c0034a$1c90f8a0$73d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008110032390.593-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

ou're right, that bastartd!  Oh, he's going to pay when it comes Star Wars
time....... <g>



On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, aardvark wrote:

> 
> posting this back to the correct list...
> 
> > From: [ vidman design ]
> >
> > Ok.. here we go. Im working on my newsite and its
> > my first attempt at dhtml and layers.
> >
> > Looks great on IE5 on a PC but i try to open it
> > in NN4.5 PC and it crashes the browser.
> 
> yep, hosed my NN...
> 
> > No idea of how it looks on a mac yet either.
> >
> > http://www.vidmandesign.com/odysseyhouse/test1.html
> 
> so, you wanna know why it does this in NN?  simple, you're
> using DHTML and layers, probably some CSS-P in there...
> NN4.x just isn't going to do what you want, it'll break...
> 
> how to fix it? dump the DHTML and layers?  can't really see
> what the site does since NN keeps crapping...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug 11 01:17:37 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Fri Aug 11 01:17:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA32@SBS>
Message-ID: <00f701c0035c$8b81fb80$0200000a@pavilion>

Just started reading about PHP and it sounds infinitely simpler to deploy.
Not sure i mentioned this in my previous article but I took an intro course
to the C language. After reading two intro articles for PHP it seems to me
that if I need the facilities of a server language then PHP would be the
obvious choice.
Could you comment on this??

As for your suggestions, the reason I thought of a server image data base
was that this would enable unlimited growth for the image catalog. I thought
it would make it easier in the long run.
Will have to spend some time looking thru your ideas before I go any
further.

Good news today! Just got my new software... Dreamweaver... Any comments,
suggestions, etc...Already thinking of Ultradev...
thanx
krr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cook" <sck at biljettpoolen.se>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 12:56 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images


> Hi Kevin,
>
> Based on the (fairly extensive) spec you have given, I would recommend
from
> the outset that you don't need a database to make this happen!
>
> If you think about it, your interface of using a forward and back
navigation
> system, along with a numbering system for the images, means that the
> structure you require is really very simple. If you were looking to have a
> system with a large amount of meta data for each image, plus a *much*
larger
> amount of images, then there might be some good reason to put everything
in
> a database. As it is, you would be better off using a normal directory
> structure for the images.
>
> One important question that isn't covered - will there often be changes to
> the set of images? If you are going to be removing images from the list
> fairly often, then you'll need to think about how you keep the naming
> structure intact. Otherwise, I seem to recall that I wrote an article
about
> a JavaScript based image gallery system that sounds as though it would fit
> your requirements directly:
>
> Yup, here it is - http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=567
>
> If you need to update the ordering of the images fairly often, or have a
> requirement for easy upload and removal of images, then you would almost
> certainly be better off looking at one of the existing solutions that you
> can find on the web.
>
> Here's a couple of links to get you started!
>
http://www.aspin.com/func/search?tree=aspin/webapps/content&pg=5&qry=image+g
> allery&cat=all
>
http://www.aspin.com/func/search?tree=aspin/webapps/content&pg=4&qry=image+g
> allery&cat=all
>
> Try searching for "ASP image gallery" or similar to build up more
> possibilities.
>
> Good luck
>
> .steve
>
> ----------------------------------
>    WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
>  Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
>  Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
> ----------------------------------
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kevin raleigh [mailto:krr at ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: den 10 augusti 2000 06:28
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
> >
>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug 11 01:26:30 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Fri Aug 11 01:26:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA32@SBS>
Message-ID: <010001c0035d$c99faa60$0200000a@pavilion>

> One important question that isn't covered - will there often be changes to
> the set of images? If you are going to be removing images from the list
> fairly often, then you'll need to think about how you keep the naming
> structure intact. Otherwise, I seem to recall that I wrote an article
about
> a JavaScript based image gallery system that sounds as though it would fit
> your requirements directly:

Not sure how this would come into play. For the sake of argument lets say
that images were updated quite often how would you go about "keeping the
naming structure intact.

thanx
krr




From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Fri Aug 11 02:03:34 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Fri Aug 11 02:03:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA34@SBS>

I managed (luckily) to get there in time, though it took an age for my PIN
to finally get through and I also had to contend with broken forms and the
like. However my main reason for signing up was to support Alan and happily
I am from Sweden, so I can certainly nominate you. I guess we need to wait
until the 15th when their forms go up, but feel free to give me a shout when
you need my support.

Regarding the closing of their elections - I guess it has as much to do with
their sign-up process as anything else. ICANN seem to have the heaviest
security process I have seen, apart from my online bank! They use a
username, password combo, but also use a PIN which is sent to you by snail
mail. I guess that administrative issues are the reason it takes them so
long to end out the PINs and that this is why they have closed the voting
process.

Still not really acceptable though is it?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a good scrap and may the best Lemur win :-)

.steve



> -----Original Message-----
> From: the head lemur [mailto:lemurs at extremezone.com]
> Sent: den 10 augusti 2000 16:30
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: RE:[thelist] ICANN At Large - membership/nomination
> 
> 
> There has been discussion on voting. The snail mail portion of the
> membership process is way behind the online portion of the 
> registration
> process. I have e-mailed ICANN to find out if your 
> registration date(online)
> will determine your eligibility to vote. more soon!
> 
> As the howling voice of the independant designer community, 
> one other thing
> needed to keep me on the ballot is a nomination from someone 
> outside the
> North american area..
> any takers?
<SNIP>



From joe at artlung.com  Fri Aug 11 02:45:07 2000
From: joe at artlung.com (Joe Crawford)
Date: Fri Aug 11 02:45:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] New Mac Text Editor - Very cool.
Message-ID: <3993AD80.E4D1A7DC@artlung.com>

Pepper:
	http://www.hekkelman.com/pepper.html

Screenshot:
	http://www.artlung.com/temp/pepper-ss.jpg

It does PHP and rectangular selections! Woo hoo!

	- Joe

-- 
Joe Crawford <mailto:joe at artlung.com> | web designer + developer 
                    services-for-hire | http://joecrawford.com/
                        personal-site | http://www.artlung.com/
dev-mailing-list-for-san-diego-CA-USA | http://www.websandiego.org/



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Fri Aug 11 04:18:18 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Fri Aug 11 04:18:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA35@SBS>

Hi Kevin,

I would suggest that if you have C as a ground language, then PHP may well
be easier to pick up than ASP - however the latest version of ASP, ASP+ will
include support for a new language called C#, which is going to be a kind of
subset of the C langauge with improved handling of Internet based
information (such as information returned from forms). I personally use both
for different purposes and I would suggest that PHP is great to program, but
I'm only used to using it on Linux. I have no idea how strong it is on
Windows. 

Sorry, I didn't want to muddy the waters for you, but your choice might be
made easier considering that there are no ISP's running ASP+ yet. There's
more information here:
<wrap>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/code/sample.asp%3Furl%3
D/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml
</wrap>
and at www.asptoday.com

Aside from that, as a beginner, whichever method you choose, you should
almost certainly take an existing script and modify it to your needs. That's
how I have learnt every programming language I use today. It saves a LOT of
time and for the sort of functionality you require there are many solutions
already available.

If you are looking to the future with your application and see that you will
need to update the selection frequently, then you are almost certainly
right, that a database solution will be best. However, even in that case, I
personally would store the images themselves in normal directories and the
the information about each image (name, order, description etc) in the
database itself.

Wah - that looks like I've given loads of random info to you there! I hope
it ends up being helpful.

.steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kevin raleigh [mailto:krr at ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: den 11 augusti 2000 08:23
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
> 
> 
> Just started reading about PHP and it sounds infinitely 
> simpler to deploy.
> Not sure i mentioned this in my previous article but I took 
> an intro course
> to the C language. After reading two intro articles for PHP 
> it seems to me
> that if I need the facilities of a server language then PHP 
> would be the
> obvious choice.
> Could you comment on this??
> 
> As for your suggestions, the reason I thought of a server 
> image data base
> was that this would enable unlimited growth for the image 
> catalog. I thought
> it would make it easier in the long run.
> Will have to spend some time looking thru your ideas before I go any
> further.
> 
> Good news today! Just got my new software... Dreamweaver... 
> Any comments,
> suggestions, etc...Already thinking of Ultradev...
> thanx
> krr



From peter at vardus.com  Fri Aug 11 04:36:58 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Fri Aug 11 04:36:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Registrars
In-Reply-To: <B5B9A825.142FC%gsd@mac.com>
References: <26.93f04a4.26c4999c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000811103056.0208a310@smtp.vardus.net>

joker.com
what a tagline! :)
Peter




From martinb at anytimenow.com  Fri Aug 11 06:31:22 2000
From: martinb at anytimenow.com (martin burns)
Date: Fri Aug 11 06:31:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] Compaq thin client devices
Message-ID: <3993E390.000436.00214@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>

Has anyone used/got strong opinions on the Compaq WinCE devices as consumer devices for internet access?

They're somewhere between a normal PC and a set-top box apparently.

If someone gave you one, what would be your perceived value of it?

Cheers
Martin



From CDitty at email.usps.gov  Fri Aug 11 08:04:52 2000
From: CDitty at email.usps.gov (Christopher Ditty)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:04:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Shell script goes crazy and kills server
Message-ID: <0033000002402206000002L062*@MHS>

Any shell guru's out there?  I have a very small shell script that pings my DB
and if it is not up, it starts it.  It runs fine when run from a telnet prompt,
however, when run via cron, it crashes the db server then the next time it runs,
it restarts it.

Anyone see anything with this?

result=`mysqladmin ping`
echo $result
if [ "$result" != "mysqld is alive" ]
then
  cd ~
  ./etc/mysql_restart
fi


Thanks
CDitty



From lemurs at extremezone.com  Fri Aug 11 08:08:22 2000
From: lemurs at extremezone.com (the head lemur)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:08:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] weekend reading
Message-ID: <00a101c00395$a6802400$4a1df5cc@sigrid>

This weeks A List Apart has a tasty article by Erika ripping the lid off the
great secret browser conspiracy...
http://www.alistapart.com/

+1

alan herrell - the head lemur
news http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
opinion http://www.lemurzone.com/edit/editorial.htm
Campaign 2000 http://www.lemurzone.com/campaign/
money for pixels http://www.lemurzone.com





From mcmurd at ccaa.edu  Fri Aug 11 08:09:25 2000
From: mcmurd at ccaa.edu (Daniel McMurray)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:09:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] RE: help with dhtml and layers in NN
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008110032390.593-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10008110849180.4164-100000@abraham.ccaa.edu>

ok, this one screams for an apology and a tip....I know I'm not the first
one to do this (thankfully) but it's no less embarrassing.....

Sorry guys!

<tip type="stock stuff">
If you have the need for stock material, whether it be pictures, sounds,
movie clips or even midi files, before you go to that site and pay
$20-$80/item, check what you already have.  Raid your CD-Rom collection
looking for valuable stuff.  Heck, pull out old photo albums and look
there.  If you use one with people in it, make sure you get their
permission, of course.  For that matter, make sure pay attention to
copyrights around the board, especially if you do raid your CD-Rom
collection.  
There's a lot of useful stuff to be found, especially if you work on a
small budget!
</tip>






From dascott at wam.umd.edu  Fri Aug 11 08:14:06 2000
From: dascott at wam.umd.edu (dave gray)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:14:06 2000
Subject: [thelist] response.redirect with frames (ASP question)
In-Reply-To: <001801c0034a$d39b2fc0$73d21a26@roselli>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008110808350.5275-100000@rac2.wam.umd.edu>

you might want to try having your ASP spit out the javascript code to do
that... i'm not exactly sure how you would do that without javascript
though

HTH

 -dave

> > Quick question here: I need to use
> > response.redirect in one of my ASP pages,
> > but it's in a frameset; how do I specify the
> > target frame (in the case, I
> > want to bust out of the frames, so I need to set
> > the target="_top", somehow...




From dascott at wam.umd.edu  Fri Aug 11 08:22:18 2000
From: dascott at wam.umd.edu (dave gray)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:22:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Textarea formating
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008080943060.25754-100000@rac4.wam.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0008110813530.5275-100000@rac2.wam.umd.edu>

actually, this should be:

function makeBold(){
  var fullText = document.forms[0].fred.value;
// the function on the next line probably doesn't exist...
// i forget how to do that 'get the user-selected text
// from the browser' thing...
  var selectedText = document.selectedText.createRange();
  var whatToMatch = new RegExp(selectedText);
// the important change was here... there would be no .leftContext
// or .rightContext the way i did it before DOH
  var resultArray = whatToMatch.exec(fullText);
  newText = whatToMatch.leftContext + "<b>" + whatToMatch.lastMatch +
  "</b>" + whatToMatch.rightContext;
  document.forms[0].fred.value=newText;
}

...

<textarea name=fred></textarea>
<a href="javascript:void(makeBold())">make selected text bold</a>

if anyone really cares :)

 -dave


>  function makeBold(){
>   var selectedText = "";
>   var whatToMatch = new RegExp(selectedText);
>   var resultArray = whatToMatch.exec(selectedText);
>   newText = whatToMatch.leftContext + "<b>" + whatToMatch.lastMatch +
>   "</b>" + whatToMatch.rightContext;
>   document.forms[0].fred.value=newText;
> }
> 
> ...
> 
> <textarea name=fred></textarea>
> <a href="javascript:void(makeBold())">make selected text bold</a>
> 
>  -dave
> 
> ps- O'Reilly's Dynamic HTML rocks!
> 
> 
> > > the heart of all of these scripts.  Would I therefore be 
> > > right in suspecting
> > > that you can only do this in IE, and that it's just not possible in
> > > Netscape?  If it is possible could someone point me in the 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From lemurs at extremezone.com  Fri Aug 11 08:35:52 2000
From: lemurs at extremezone.com (the head lemur)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:35:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] ICANN Membership and Voting
Message-ID: <00c701c00399$7e15a040$4a1df5cc@sigrid>

Some folks were concerned about being able to vote in the upcoming
elections.
I sent a note to Andrew at ICANN about this.

This was the reply:

[snip]
Hi!  The last of the PIN letters went out early this week.  We'll give
people at least a month to get the letters and activate.  We're currently
looking at an activation deadline of September 8, to be posted within a day
or so.

The deadline for nomination endorsements is currently August 31, but we'll
be watching closely to see if that gives everyone enough time to get the
letters, get activated, and participate.
[/snip]

So If you got the first part done, and thanks to everyone who went through
this process, you should be able to vote by activating your membership with
your snail mail pin number, by September 8.

Here is what is happening currently:
http://members.icann.org/nom.html

alan herrell - the head lemur
news http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
opinion http://www.lemurzone.com/edit/editorial.htm
Campaign 2000 http://www.lemurzone.com/campaign/
money for pixels http://www.lemurzone.com







From kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com  Fri Aug 11 08:40:29 2000
From: kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com (kev.skindrill)
Date: Fri Aug 11 08:40:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
References: <B5B9A7D7.142FB%gsd@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c00399$e3405e60$da8d883e@v0d8h2>

Could someone give me a bit of guidance here please? I have a drop down box
with 5 possible options & what I am trying to acheive is that if option 3 is
selected then options 1 and 2 are also shown. To get this I have written the
following code...

if request.form("minsize")="Motorbike" then
 pcnum="Motorbike"
elseif request.form("minsize")="Transit" then
 pcnum="Motorbike, Transit"
elseif request.form("minsize")="7 Ton Truck" then
 pcnum="Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck"
elseif request.form("minsize")="17 Ton Truck" then
 pcnum="Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck, 17 Ton Truck"
elseif request.form("minsize")="40 Ton Truck" then
 pcnum="Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck, 17 Ton Truck, 40 Ton Truck"
end if

and then I have the SQL statement as follows...

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize=("&pcnum&") and
Available = 1")

But I get this error message...

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14'

[Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Syntax error (missing operator) in
query expression 'MinimumVehicleSize=(Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck) and
Available = 1'.

So as far as I can see I have successfully changed the results of
request.form("minsize") into a string because it is showing up as a comma
seperated list in the error message, but what is this "missing operator"
business? This code worked perfectly when I had this SQL statement...

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where
MinimumVehicleSize='"&request.form("minsize")&"' and Available = 1")

which (as far as I understand it) amounts to the same thing.

TIA

K







From jmorehead at alphalincoln.com  Fri Aug 11 09:12:33 2000
From: jmorehead at alphalincoln.com (Jason Morehead)
Date: Fri Aug 11 09:12:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] New Mac Text Editor - Very cool.
In-Reply-To: <3993AD80.E4D1A7DC@artlung.com>
References: <3993AD80.E4D1A7DC@artlung.com>
Message-ID: <a04310100b5b9b98f343e@[207.91.25.33]>

>Pepper:
>	http://www.hekkelman.com/pepper.html
>
>Screenshot:
>	http://www.artlung.com/temp/pepper-ss.jpg
>
>It does PHP and rectangular selections! Woo hoo!

cool!  i just downloaded the demo yesterday, but haven't had a chance 
to play with it.

jason
-- 
http://www.alphalincoln.com/
alphagraphics of nebraska - web services
201 n 14th - lincoln, ne 68508 - 402.475.0000



From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Fri Aug 11 09:17:41 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Fri Aug 11 09:17:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA39@SBS>

Yo Kev!!

Looks like you've missed the single quotes around your string value
"request.form("minsize")"

As a result, it's parsing the value into the SELECT string.

A tip for debugging these sorts of errors, is to use

SQL = "SELECT * FROM foo;"
Response.Write SQL


That way you would see in your SQL statement the missing single quotes :-)

See ya round!

.steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kev.skindrill [mailto:kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com]

>SNIP>
> 
> and then I have the SQL statement as follows...
> 
> ("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize=("&pcnum&") and
> Available = 1")
> 
> But I get this error message...
> 
> Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14'
> 
> [Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Syntax error 
> (missing operator) in
> query expression 'MinimumVehicleSize=(Motorbike, Transit, 7 
> Ton Truck) and
> Available = 1'.
> 
> So as far as I can see I have successfully changed the results of
> request.form("minsize") into a string because it is showing 
> up as a comma
> seperated list in the error message, but what is this 
> "missing operator"
> business? This code worked perfectly when I had this SQL statement...
> 
> ("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where
> MinimumVehicleSize='"&request.form("minsize")&"' and Available = 1")
> 
> which (as far as I understand it) amounts to the same thing.
> 
> TIA



From gstrange at e-tsi.com  Fri Aug 11 09:41:55 2000
From: gstrange at e-tsi.com (Greg Strange)
Date: Fri Aug 11 09:41:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] Compaq thin client devices
In-Reply-To: <3993E390.000436.00214@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>
Message-ID: <B5B97A6C.4BFA%gstrange@e-tsi.com>

on 8/11/00 6:29 AM, martin burns at martinb at anytimenow.com wrote:

> If someone gave you one, what would be your perceived value of it?
> 

I haven't used the Compaq ones but I did install over 400 of Capio's clients
(which also run WinCE [unfortunate moniker IMO]) to run off of several NT
4.0 servers.  While these were configurable to be stand-alone appliances
catching many of their applications from the the Internet (via Citrix
servers)  I found that they were simply under-powerful.  Difficult to
configure (because they had to break up a number of the menus due to display
limits), non-upgradeable, and low in the error-handling department, I would
probably smile and say thank you but take it to the nearest BestBuy for
in-store credit.  Especially considering that to my understanding they were
around $500 each.  A cheap PC (ugh!) or just $200 short of an iMac (joy!).

For what it's worth,
Greg Strange
-- 
Is a thing morally right or wrong?
Is it advantageous or disadvantageous?
If apparent right and apparent advantage clash,
What is to be the basis for our choice between them?
  -3 questions from Cicero to his son, _De Officiis_




From sentient at mail.com  Fri Aug 11 10:46:24 2000
From: sentient at mail.com (Simon)
Date: Fri Aug 11 10:46:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] Little javascript help? (banner rotation + mouseOvers)
Message-ID: <p0432040cb5b9c5f55e91@[209.206.88.241]>

Hello all,

Sometimes I get stuck and know it's probably just
something simple that I'm missing somewhere. Could
one of the resident Javascript aficionados please
take a look at this page...

http://NetTrash.com/users/compost/rotatertest.html

...and tell me why the (short and simple) banner
script works fine there but not on the second page
linked to it (rotatertest2.html)?

Thanks to all who can help,

Simon

P.S. The three banner use some suggestive humour
      but nothing actually offensive I hope...they're
      just three of the seven old Brazilian Internet
      Company ones that I used for testing things.
-- 

------------------------------------------------
Sentient Technologies - mailto:sentient at mail.com
------------------------------------------------




From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Fri Aug 11 11:04:42 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Fri Aug 11 11:04:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] Compaq thin client devices
In-Reply-To: <3993E390.000436.00214@baldrick.mybriefcase.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMOENODHAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Mr. Burns [martinb at anytimenow.com] asked:

> -----Original Message-----
> Has anyone used/got strong opinions on the Compaq WinCE devices
> as consumer devices for internet access?

When I was looking for a PDA, I looked at the Aero range from Compaq.

The only thing that put me off was their physical size - it would have to go
in a briefcase rather than a pocket - and hence I bought a Palm V.

I understand that WinCE - good name that - was to be upgraded/rebranded as
Pocket Windows but their web site shows it as WinCe 3.0.

The pre-release shots showed a special zooming browser, IIRC.

Now, call me old-fashioned, but if I want to browse the web I'll use a
laptop or desktop with a faster connection than 9600bps and a bigger
screen...

Hope this helps.

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard. H. Morris, Web Designers Limited
~~ http://www.web-designers.co.uk ~~
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me
          than a full frontal lobotomy"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/





From sgd at ti3.com  Fri Aug 11 12:21:04 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Fri Aug 11 12:21:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] Friday Freebie
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB32111720124D8@gate.ti3.com>

Let's see, what shall I write about today?

oh, this is a gooder:

<tip type="ASP, minimizing DB object use">
You've been through the WROX book(s). You've glanced through the O'Reilly
book and you've soaked in the MS docs. You're ready to do some databasing!
So what's with having to create three objects just to get some records out
of one table?? All that parameter setup crap to execute a stored procedure??

There is a better way, both performance and sanity wise: The Connection
object is really all you need. Seriously.

Set up your connection:
<%
	Set oConn = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.CONNECTION")
	oConn.Open "DSN=MySQLServer;UID=NewsUser;PWD=yomamma;Database=News"
%>

And now do what you want through the Execute method:
Grab some records; the recordset object is created implicitly, with no
performance penalty
<%
	Set oRS = oConn.Execute("Select title,body from tbArticles where
art_id="&articleid)
%>

Update a record. Don't you *DARE* use the recordset object to update or
insert data
<%
	oConn.Execute "Update tbArticles set title='"&newtitle&"' where
art_id="&articleid
%>

-- Even fire off a stored procedure
<%
	oConn.Execute "Exec procUpdateArticle @newtitle='"&newtitle&"',
@artid="&articleid
%>
 
How about a stored procedure that returns a recordset?
<%
	Set oRS = oConn.Execute("Exec procReturnUpdatedArticle
@newtitle='"&newtitle&"', @artid="&articleid)
%>

Considering you also start/commit/roll back transactions through the
connection object, its a one-stop shop to talk to your db. Look, Ma, less
code I have to write!

Ignoring the ADODB.Command object will work for probably 99.9% of your ASP
career. There are some advantages to using it, and the only ones I've found
notable are when using stored procedures that have output parameters (and I
work around that by returning a recordset instead), and having the query
cached for reuse later on the page (which I work around by doing an
oRS.GetRows, which loads the entire recordset into a two dimensional array).

To make things even easier on your fingers, try these two functions to help
you set up and tear down your db connections:

<%
Function SetupDB(byval connstr)
Dim DBCON
Set DBCON = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.Connection")
DBCON.ConnectionTimeout = 15
DBCON.CommandTimeout = 60
DBCON.Open connstr
Set SetupSQL = DBCON
Set DBCON = Nothing
End Function

Sub CloseDB(byref DBCON)
DBCON.Close
Set DBCON = Nothing
end sub
%>

So to set up a connection, I'd say:
<%
Set oConn =
SetupDB("DSN=MySQLServer;UID=readwriteuser;PWD=yomamma;Database=Articles")
%>

And to kill it:
<%
CloseDB oConn
%>

So get those extra Server.CreateObject calls outta your head. Ya really
don't need 'em. Your web server's CPU(s) will thank you, and so will your
clients who thought all db driven sites were slow.

</tip>
sgd
--
think safely



From lfloyd at sonic.net  Fri Aug 11 12:48:29 2000
From: lfloyd at sonic.net (L. Floyd)
Date: Fri Aug 11 12:48:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Database connections using IP addresses?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000811103349.1562A-100000@bolt.sonic.net>

We need to access a SQL Server db, which is deep behind our firewall on
our WAN, from our web server, which is in our DMZ (not connected to our
WAN in any way).  Assuming we poke the right holes through the firewall,
we thought there must be a way to do this using IP addresses in the
connection string rather than machine names.

Currently, if I make an ADO connection to the SQL Server database from a
web application on that same machine I do something like this:

<%
Set ThisConnection = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.connection")
ThisConnection.Open "server=SQL_MACHINE_DOMAIN_NAME;driver={SQL
Server};;uid=localuser;pwd=;database=products"
%>

Would the IP connection (assuming it's possible) be made with the syntax
something like this:

<%
Set ThisConnection = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.connection") 
ThisConnection.Open "server=144.195.100.100;driver={SQL
Server};;uid=localuser;pwd=;database=products"
%>

Or am I hopelessly lost?

Thanks for any/all help/suggestions!

- larry






From zacm at etr.org  Fri Aug 11 12:51:51 2000
From: zacm at etr.org (Zachary Mutrux)
Date: Fri Aug 11 12:51:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] looking for a site check in NN 3 Win
Message-ID: <B5B98AD7.1B025%zacm@etr.org>

Hi All:

http://www.nationalservice.org/resources/epicenter/

A coworker of mine tried to visit this site (we just went live with it), and
it repeatedly crashes her browser, NN 3.something for Windows. I have NN
3.04 Standard and Gold on my machine, and haven't been able to replicate her
problem.

If anyone has this browser or one like it handy, I'd appreciate it if you
could spare a few moments to poke around a little. Try clicking on the
"Find" button--there is a little JavaScript code in there I'm not too sure
about.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

zm

--
Zachary Mutrux, IT Generalist, National Service Resource Center
800-860-2684 x.130  |  http://www.etr.org/nsrc
831-461-0205 (TDD)  |  AOL Instant Messenger screen name: NSRC TA




From gina at sitediva.com  Fri Aug 11 12:54:36 2000
From: gina at sitediva.com (Gina K. Anderson)
Date: Fri Aug 11 12:54:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet
Message-ID: <000401c003bd$6e49b380$dc6fa518@cinci.rr.com>

Hi all,

I have been trying to set up, as cheaply as possible, my SSH capabilities with
my hosting package. I have about three hairs left, and I could use some help. If
anyone has any knowledge about this subject, I'd love some guidance before I
have a stroke :P It has to do with RSA keys and ssh-keygen:

I don't telnet very often, but when I do I really need to. My hoster wanted me
to give them $25 to generate a key and install it on my server, however, they
gave me a free option to generate and upload my own key. I can do this through
my control panel. Since I am not planning to stay with this host long, I decided
there had to be a way I could do this myself and save the bucks--always the
cheapskate, plus I like to learn...this only brings me pain every once in a
great while :)

Okay, my host is Linux/Apache. I have a Win98 machine. Stupid me thinks an
PGP-generated RSA key might work, and uploaded my public key. Then I tried to
connect using a freeware SSH Telnet program called TerraTerm SSH, no luck.

So I downloaded the ridiculously priced (for me) SecureCRT. Generated a key,
uploaded it, and everything works. However, I'm not going to pay their price. I
hoped TTSSH would work with that key, but not a chance. Supposedly, I need to
run a "real" RSA key by using ssh-keygen. I can't figure out how to use it. The
manual pages seem to read like I need to be the server administrator to use
ssh-keygen, and are geek-speak even to me :). There seems to be no way to
generate one on your local machine you can just copy and paste out of.

I feel like I am back to square one and have to give up the $25 bucks for all
this to work. All I need is an RSA key that will allow me to SSH telnet into my
account, be able to copy and paste that sucker into my control panel area, and
I'm set...now, how do I get an ssh-keygen RSA key if all I have access to is my
FTP space?

Thanks,
Bald Gina






From bhutton at effectnet.com  Fri Aug 11 13:15:03 2000
From: bhutton at effectnet.com (Billy Hutton)
Date: Fri Aug 11 13:15:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet
In-Reply-To: <71CDFFA73DA9D311AE2B0050DA7142D61FCEE3@ATHM-209-219-xxx-25.home.net>
Message-ID: <71CDFFA73DA9D311AE2B0050DA7142D624B663@ATHM-209-219-xxx-25.home.net>

I don't really know what I'm doing here either, but you might want to get
OpenSSL (http://www.openssl.org/) and install it in your shell space.  I use
it to generate keys all the time for self-signed certificates for testing
out secure sites.

You should be able to cut and paste the key that it generates into your
control panel.

Good luck





From mwarden at odyssey-design.com  Fri Aug 11 13:28:03 2000
From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Aug 11 13:28:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet
References: <000401c003bd$6e49b380$dc6fa518@cinci.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c003c1$78395a90$4e03020a@synchrony.net>

Gina, are you able to connect using a regular telnet session? Try:

[Windows Key]+R
telnet machine.yourhost.com

Might take up to 10 seconds to connect.

if prompted, login and look and see if they have shh-keygen on the machine
(probably in /usr/local/bin (maybe /usr/bin or /bin)). Then, run it from
there.

Never done this before, but this is how I would approach it.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gina K. Anderson" <gina at sitediva.com>
To: "Evolt" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 1:56 PM
Subject: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet


> Hi all,
>
> I have been trying to set up, as cheaply as possible, my SSH capabilities
with
> my hosting package. I have about three hairs left, and I could use some
help. If
> anyone has any knowledge about this subject, I'd love some guidance before
I
> have a stroke :P It has to do with RSA keys and ssh-keygen:
>
> I don't telnet very often, but when I do I really need to. My hoster
wanted me
> to give them $25 to generate a key and install it on my server, however,
they
> gave me a free option to generate and upload my own key. I can do this
through
> my control panel. Since I am not planning to stay with this host long, I
decided
> there had to be a way I could do this myself and save the bucks--always
the
> cheapskate, plus I like to learn...this only brings me pain every once in
a
> great while :)
>
> Okay, my host is Linux/Apache. I have a Win98 machine. Stupid me thinks an
> PGP-generated RSA key might work, and uploaded my public key. Then I tried
to
> connect using a freeware SSH Telnet program called TerraTerm SSH, no luck.
>
> So I downloaded the ridiculously priced (for me) SecureCRT. Generated a
key,
> uploaded it, and everything works. However, I'm not going to pay their
price. I
> hoped TTSSH would work with that key, but not a chance. Supposedly, I need
to
> run a "real" RSA key by using ssh-keygen. I can't figure out how to use
it. The
> manual pages seem to read like I need to be the server administrator to
use
> ssh-keygen, and are geek-speak even to me :). There seems to be no way to
> generate one on your local machine you can just copy and paste out of.
>
> I feel like I am back to square one and have to give up the $25 bucks for
all
> this to work. All I need is an RSA key that will allow me to SSH telnet
into my
> account, be able to copy and paste that sucker into my control panel area,
and
> I'm set...now, how do I get an ssh-keygen RSA key if all I have access to
is my
> FTP space?
>
> Thanks,
> Bald Gina
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From Anthony at Baratta.com  Fri Aug 11 13:55:25 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Fri Aug 11 13:55:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] Database connections using IP addresses?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000811103349.1562A-100000@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000811115207.02213d38@baratta.com>

At 10:46 AM 8/11/2000, you wrote:
>Would the IP connection (assuming it's possible) be made with the syntax
>something like this:
>
><%
>Set ThisConnection = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.connection")
>ThisConnection.Open "server=144.195.100.100;driver={SQL
>Server};;uid=localuser;pwd=;database=products"
>%>


My understanding (so someone please correct me if wrong) is that the 
connection string is a reference to your ODBC DSN 'connectoid'. Therefore 
substituting the IP Address for the Connection Name is not going to work.

What I think you will need to do is setup an ODBC DSN with the server's IP 
address embedded in there, then call the ODBC DSN by name in your ASP Code.

Clear as mud??

----
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys




From ekissane at sapient.com  Fri Aug 11 13:59:05 2000
From: ekissane at sapient.com (Erin Kissane)
Date: Fri Aug 11 13:59:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <A7778D9EE004D411B35C0008C716EC1D03052138@cammail01.sapient.com>

My personal favorites:

"to leverage."  As in, "we'll leverage that message.
"to message." As in "we'll message this as strongly as possible."

 and today's winner:
"to craft verbiage."  As in TO WRITE, for the love of GOD.

I heard it four or five times yesterday.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Danek [mailto:Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 1:03 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)
> 
> 
> Not entirely. Buzzwords give flesh to new ideas that cannot 
> be encapsulated
> shortly and conveniently otherwise.
> 
> cd
> 
> > << That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.
> >
> > And that's what they are intended to be: vague, misleading 
> terms that
> > communicate something non-commital so the person using the
> > buzzword cannot be
> > fully responsible for the actuality being different from 
> what the person
> > thought was said.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 11 14:15:25 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Aug 11 14:15:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] looking for a site check in NN 3 Win
In-Reply-To: <B5B98AD7.1B025%zacm@etr.org>
Message-ID: <200008111913.MAA28201@smtp2-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From:  Zachary Mutrux <zacm at etr.org>
> 
> http://www.nationalservice.org/resources/epicenter/
> 
> If anyone has this browser or one like it handy, I'd appreciate it if
> you could spare a few moments to poke around a little. Try clicking on
> the "Find" button--there is a little JavaScript code in there I'm not
> too sure about.

worked fine... NN3.04/win98...

i'll refrain from commenting on the small text in the images, the 
frames, and other stuff....



From gina at sitediva.com  Fri Aug 11 14:23:03 2000
From: gina at sitediva.com (Gina K. Anderson)
Date: Fri Aug 11 14:23:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] [SOLVED- Matt] Going crazy with SSH telnet
In-Reply-To: <002b01c003c1$78395a90$4e03020a@synchrony.net>
Message-ID: <000501c003c9$cc7e1a20$dc6fa518@cinci.rr.com>

Hi Matt,

I couldn't telnet without an SSH connection and keypair, they forbid it which is
cool with me-I like having the extra security. I did know the path to ssh-keygen
on the server machine because I looked it up using SecureCRT. I had a win32
ssh-keygen on my hard drive, and I tried using it. It didn't work of course, but
I saw what I was supposed to do to get the key generated right.

I tried running keygen from the path given from my query and--I'M IN!!! I saved
the generated private and public keypair to my www/ directory so I could get to
them, took them off the ftp space onto my hard drive, then copied an pasted the
pub key into my control panel-viola! My TTSSH works now, I am happily telneting
:)

Thanks for persuading me to try it :)

Gina

|-----Original Message-----
|From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
|[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Warden, Matt
|Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:24 PM
|To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
|Subject: Re: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet
|
|
|Gina, are you able to connect using a regular telnet session? Try:
|
|[Windows Key]+R
|telnet machine.yourhost.com
|
|Might take up to 10 seconds to connect.
|
|if prompted, login and look and see if they have shh-keygen on the machine
|(probably in /usr/local/bin (maybe /usr/bin or /bin)). Then, run it from
|there.
|
|Never done this before, but this is how I would approach it.
|
|--
|mattwarden
|mattwarden.com
|
|----- Original Message -----
|From: "Gina K. Anderson" <gina at sitediva.com>
|To: "Evolt" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
|Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 1:56 PM
|Subject: [thelist] Going crazy with SSH telnet
|
|
|> Hi all,
|>
|> I have been trying to set up, as cheaply as possible, my SSH capabilities
|with
|> my hosting package. I have about three hairs left, and I could use some
|help. If
|> anyone has any knowledge about this subject, I'd love some guidance before
|I
|> have a stroke :P It has to do with RSA keys and ssh-keygen:
|>
|> I don't telnet very often, but when I do I really need to. My hoster
|wanted me
|> to give them $25 to generate a key and install it on my server, however,
|they
|> gave me a free option to generate and upload my own key. I can do this
|through
|> my control panel. Since I am not planning to stay with this host long, I
|decided
|> there had to be a way I could do this myself and save the bucks--always
|the
|> cheapskate, plus I like to learn...this only brings me pain every once in
|a
|> great while :)
|>
|> Okay, my host is Linux/Apache. I have a Win98 machine. Stupid me thinks an
|> PGP-generated RSA key might work, and uploaded my public key. Then I tried
|to
|> connect using a freeware SSH Telnet program called TerraTerm SSH, no luck.
|>
|> So I downloaded the ridiculously priced (for me) SecureCRT. Generated a
|key,
|> uploaded it, and everything works. However, I'm not going to pay their
|price. I
|> hoped TTSSH would work with that key, but not a chance. Supposedly, I need
|to
|> run a "real" RSA key by using ssh-keygen. I can't figure out how to use
|it. The
|> manual pages seem to read like I need to be the server administrator to
|use
|> ssh-keygen, and are geek-speak even to me :). There seems to be no way to
|> generate one on your local machine you can just copy and paste out of.
|>
|> I feel like I am back to square one and have to give up the $25 bucks for
|all
|> this to work. All I need is an RSA key that will allow me to SSH telnet
|into my
|> account, be able to copy and paste that sucker into my control panel area,
|and
|> I'm set...now, how do I get an ssh-keygen RSA key if all I have access to
|is my
|> FTP space?
|>
|> Thanks,
|> Bald Gina
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> ---------------------------------------
|> For unsubscribe and other options, including
|> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
|> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
|>
|
|
|---------------------------------------
|For unsubscribe and other options, including
|the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
|http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
|




From sgd at ti3.com  Fri Aug 11 15:35:23 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Fri Aug 11 15:35:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] Database connections using IP addresses?
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB32111720124DB@gate.ti3.com>

> 
> What I think you will need to do is setup an ODBC DSN with 
> the server's IP 
> address embedded in there, then call the ODBC DSN by name in 
> your ASP Code.
> 

Do that. Also make sure you're running a fairly recent version of the Data
Access Components (MDAC); the current release is 2.5 (and freely available
for download at MS). When you set up your /system/ DSN, on the second page
of the set up is a button titled, 'Client Configuration...' --click that and
change the network library to TCP/IP sockets (the default is named pipes),
and change the host name to the actual address.

>From there, you need to get together with the gods of your firewall and open
up port 1433 just for your web box to the server. Make sure you and your
firewall gods narrow the access to the sprcific IP's you need.

And last, but not least, make sure the SQL Server is listening to TCP/IP.

That should get you up and running.

sgd
--
think safely



From kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com  Fri Aug 11 15:50:04 2000
From: kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com (kev.skindrill)
Date: Fri Aug 11 15:50:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA39@SBS>
Message-ID: <005501c003d5$e9e21880$2e27893e@v0d8h2>

> Yo Kev!!
Back atcha Steve ;)

> Looks like you've missed the single quotes around your string value
> "request.form("minsize")"
>
> As a result, it's parsing the value into the SELECT string.

Umm, where exactly should I have the single quotes around the string value
request.form("minsize")? I'm not actually using that in the SQL statement, I
used that as an example of what did work. What I'm doing is following the
same pattern as I'm using to get a list of ticked check boxes i.e. passing a
comma seperated string to an SQL statement

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize = ("& pcnum &") and
Available = 1")

so in the case I am testing it would literally read

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize = ("Motorbike, Transit,
7 Ton Truck ") and Available = 1")

The string is being passed because it is showing up in the error statement

Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Syntax error (missing operator) in
query expression 'MinimumVehicleSize IN (Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck)
and Available = 1'.

So what is the missing operator? And thanks Rudy for your input but I'm
afraid that didn't work either

SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize IN ("&pcnum&")

Any other ideas peeps?
Cheers
K







From meredith at pintsize.com  Fri Aug 11 15:53:32 2000
From: meredith at pintsize.com (Meredith Tupper)
Date: Fri Aug 11 15:53:32 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
References: <A7778D9EE004D411B35C0008C716EC1D03052138@cammail01.sapient.com>
Message-ID: <3994672D.811DBC22@pintsize.com>

Erin Kissane wrote:

> My personal favorites:
>
> "to leverage."  As in, "we'll leverage that message.
> "to message." As in "we'll message this as strongly as possible."
>
>  and today's winner:
> "to craft verbiage."  As in TO WRITE, for the love of GOD.

No!!!   No!!!  Make it stop!  *fingers in ears*  Hummm hummmm hummmm I
can't stand any more tired 90s buzzwords!  Argghhh!

<tip>When in doubt, use words that don't cost 25 cents.</tip>

Meredith

--
PintSize Graphics & Web Hosting, Inc.
http://www.pintsize.com
meredith at pintsize.com
3225 S. MacDill Ave. #208
Tampa, FL 33629
813-835-5382





From meredith at pintsize.com  Fri Aug 11 17:35:31 2000
From: meredith at pintsize.com (Meredith Tupper)
Date: Fri Aug 11 17:35:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] log analysis question
Message-ID: <39947F17.79CBEEE7@pintsize.com>

Salutations,

Does anyone know of a definitive geographical list of AOL
dial-up servers?  Reason I ask is that I'm looking at some
customer stats and I see addresses like
cache-df05.proxy.aol.com, cache-rk05.proxy.aol.com,
cache-rf05.proxy.aol.com, etc.  Now I can guess that
cache-df is probably Dallas-Fort Worth, but some of 'em are
just too general to guess.  I was under the impression that
if a geographical server list existed, it would be
proprietary.  So how do I determine which servers are where?

If this information is widely available and I'm just a big
dummy who hasn't found it yet, then please pardon my buzz.

Thanks,
Meredith

--
PintSize Graphics & Web Hosting, Inc.
http://www.pintsize.com
meredith at pintsize.com
3225 S. MacDill Ave. #208
Tampa, FL 33629
813-835-5382





From bhutton at effectnet.com  Fri Aug 11 17:42:44 2000
From: bhutton at effectnet.com (Billy Hutton)
Date: Fri Aug 11 17:42:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
In-Reply-To: <71CDFFA73DA9D311AE2B0050DA7142D61FCEEB@ATHM-209-219-xxx-25.home.net>
Message-ID: <71CDFFA73DA9D311AE2B0050DA7142D624B66A@ATHM-209-219-xxx-25.home.net>

One thing that I like to do when I can't get a sql query to work from within
an asp page or whatever;

1. Write the query first within the rmdbs (mssql7 query analyzer) with no
variables, and some simple output that you can validate.

2. Copy the query into your asp code.  Instead of trying to get it to
execute, just do a Response.Write(yourQueryHere).  Make sure the output
matches your original query.

3. Begin replacing variables one at a time, and continue to test the query
in "output mode" only via Response.Write.

4. Once you have the query exactly like you want it, ie getting data from
form elements, other recordsets, etc. copy the Response.Write output off the
page and paste it back into the rmdbs.  Execute the query again.

5.  If everything goes as planned, just change the Response.Write to an
someConnObject.Execute() statement.  :)

- B

Umm, where exactly should I have the single quotes around the string value
request.form("minsize")? I'm not actually using that in the SQL statement, I
used that as an example of what did work. What I'm doing is following the
same pattern as I'm using to get a list of ticked check boxes i.e. passing a
comma seperated string to an SQL statement

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize = ("& pcnum &") and
Available = 1")

so in the case I am testing it would literally read

("SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize = ("Motorbike, Transit,
7 Ton Truck ") and Available = 1")

The string is being passed because it is showing up in the error statement

Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Syntax error (missing operator) in
query expression 'MinimumVehicleSize IN (Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck)
and Available = 1'.

So what is the missing operator? And thanks Rudy for your input but I'm
afraid that didn't work either

SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize IN ("&pcnum&")

Any other ideas peeps?




From Leonard.Tafro at raremedium.com  Fri Aug 11 17:45:31 2000
From: Leonard.Tafro at raremedium.com (Leonard Tafro)
Date: Fri Aug 11 17:45:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <9BAE38A9FFC8D311B56000508B732A0351F8A5@LAXMSG01>

Actually I think the distinction between "writing" and "crafting verbiage"
exists and is relevant.  As any "writer" will tell you, what they do is not
simply crafting words, it's as much the ideas that are extracted from a
writer's head that we are so excited (or opposed) to read.

Content Managers, or copy editors or what-job-title-have-you are responsible
for literally "crafting" better words (or verbiage) to satisfy a message
that has been entirely conceived by someone else, specifically, the client.
Usually for the economic end of better communicating with
customers/consumers.  This is hardly "writing" as in "I'm taking a month to
go to Sri Lanka and write".

I agree with Chris, buzzwords arise as much out of necessity as a desire to
sound "in the know".

A large portion of the sucess/beauty of English is it's ability to mutate
and adapt.

<ching>
USD.02
</ching>

-Leo T

  

-----Original Message-----
From: Erin Kissane [mailto:ekissane at sapient.com]
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:50 AM
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)


My personal favorites:

"to leverage."  As in, "we'll leverage that message.
"to message." As in "we'll message this as strongly as possible."

 and today's winner:
"to craft verbiage."  As in TO WRITE, for the love of GOD.

I heard it four or five times yesterday.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Danek [mailto:Chris.Danek at cmgisolutions.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 1:03 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] OT (verbage)
> 
> 
> Not entirely. Buzzwords give flesh to new ideas that cannot 
> be encapsulated
> shortly and conveniently otherwise.
> 
> cd
> 
> > << That's the problem with most buzzwords. They're euphemisms.
> >
> > And that's what they are intended to be: vague, misleading 
> terms that
> > communicate something non-commital so the person using the
> > buzzword cannot be
> > fully responsible for the actuality being different from 
> what the person
> > thought was said.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From Leonard.Tafro at raremedium.com  Fri Aug 11 17:51:11 2000
From: Leonard.Tafro at raremedium.com (Leonard Tafro)
Date: Fri Aug 11 17:51:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <9BAE38A9FFC8D311B56000508B732A0351F8A6@LAXMSG01>

tip owed:

<tip type="Browser Differences">
If you develop on a Win2K box and you update to IE 5.5, keep in mind that
javascript errors are presented differently to the user.  Many javascript
errors that would previously stop the browser from rendering the page until
the user responded to an alert will now render that page and offer an error
message only in the status bar.  Keep your eye on the Status Bar as you
browse your site if you using IE 5.5 for debugging.
</tip>



From krr at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug 11 20:44:29 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Fri Aug 11 20:44:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA35@SBS>
Message-ID: <00c501c003ff$90089800$0200000a@pavilion>

Any insight is welcome. :-)
I do have just the one course at present "intro C" as I am diverting into
the scripting languages,
JavaScript and CGI next.
Have considered taking VB but it being proprietary I think getting back to
the C programming language would be a smarter move.
I choose the scripting languages next as they provide a smaller learning
curve and immediate results.
C programming ultimately followed by C+ would provide an enormous education
in how to work in programming overall.
At least that is my take on it. With those two languages under my belt I
figure it will be infinitely easier to digest languages in the future.

As for building the photo album "slide show" the script that I was given
will do the job.
If in the future the client wishes to get into a complex data base with
images etc... get there when I get there! :)

I might need some help working the photo image script, so if you don't mind
I will pick your brain again at a later time.

thanx again
krr


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cook" <sck at biljettpoolen.se>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:20 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images


> Hi Kevin,
>
> I would suggest that if you have C as a ground language, then PHP may well
> be easier to pick up than ASP - however the latest version of ASP, ASP+
will
> include support for a new language called C#, which is going to be a kind
of
> subset of the C langauge with improved handling of Internet based
> information (such as information returned from forms). I personally use
both
> for different purposes and I would suggest that PHP is great to program,
but
> I'm only used to using it on Linux. I have no idea how strong it is on
> Windows.
>
> Sorry, I didn't want to muddy the waters for you, but your choice might be
> made easier considering that there are no ISP's running ASP+ yet. There's
> more information here:
> <wrap>
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/code/sample.asp%3Furl%3
> D/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml
> </wrap>
> and at www.asptoday.com
>
> Aside from that, as a beginner, whichever method you choose, you should
> almost certainly take an existing script and modify it to your needs.
That's
> how I have learnt every programming language I use today. It saves a LOT
of
> time and for the sort of functionality you require there are many
solutions
> already available.
>
> If you are looking to the future with your application and see that you
will
> need to update the selection frequently, then you are almost certainly
> right, that a database solution will be best. However, even in that case,
I
> personally would store the images themselves in normal directories and the
> the information about each image (name, order, description etc) in the
> database itself.
>
> Wah - that looks like I've given loads of random info to you there! I hope
> it ends up being helpful.
>
> .steve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kevin raleigh [mailto:krr at ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: den 11 augusti 2000 08:23
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: Re: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
> >
> >
> > Just started reading about PHP and it sounds infinitely
> > simpler to deploy.
> > Not sure i mentioned this in my previous article but I took
> > an intro course
> > to the C language. After reading two intro articles for PHP
> > it seems to me
> > that if I need the facilities of a server language then PHP
> > would be the
> > obvious choice.
> > Could you comment on this??
> >
> > As for your suggestions, the reason I thought of a server
> > image data base
> > was that this would enable unlimited growth for the image
> > catalog. I thought
> > it would make it easier in the long run.
> > Will have to spend some time looking thru your ideas before I go any
> > further.
> >
> > Good news today! Just got my new software... Dreamweaver...
> > Any comments,
> > suggestions, etc...Already thinking of Ultradev...
> > thanx
> > krr
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From sentient at mail.com  Fri Aug 11 20:47:22 2000
From: sentient at mail.com (Simon)
Date: Fri Aug 11 20:47:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] Thanks --> Re: Little javascript help? (banner rotation +
 mouseOvers)
In-Reply-To: <p0432040cb5b9c5f55e91@[209.206.88.241]>
References: <p0432040cb5b9c5f55e91@[209.206.88.241]>
Message-ID: <p04320409b5ba5c0f095b@[209.206.89.98]>

To all who've helped, thank you very much, problem fixed now.
Explorer was being forgiving of a missing closing ">" where
Netscape was being a bit stricter.

Simon

-- referred email said:
> 
> Sometimes I get stuck and know it's probably just
> something simple that I'm missing somewhere. Could
> one of the resident Javascript aficionados please
> take a look at this page...
> 
> http://NetTrash.com/users/compost/rotatertest.html
> 
> ...and tell me why the (short and simple) banner
> script works fine there but not on the second page
> linked to it (rotatertest2.html)?
-- 

------------------------------------------------
Sentient Technologies - mailto:sentient at mail.com
------------------------------------------------




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug 11 20:50:41 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Fri Aug 11 20:50:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5201AA35@SBS>
Message-ID: <00e401c00400$6ddec140$0200000a@pavilion>

Forgot to mention that I spent several hours reading up on C# and a few
other items the MS has coming out.
C# sounds like an incredible advancement for ASP.
The learning curve might be a little much for right now thou.
Have some languages to put under my belt in the mean time.
Just picked up Dreamweaver and read some about ultraDev.
Might be a good way to go until I can complete the languages I need.

Haven't used a WYSIWYG editor before except for Sam's tutorial for FrontPage
2000.
Couldn't get past all the proprietary stuff in FrontPage so I didn't follow
up on it.

thanx
krr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Cook" <sck at biljettpoolen.se>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:20 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images


> Hi Kevin,
>
> I would suggest that if you have C as a ground language, then PHP may well
> be easier to pick up than ASP - however the latest version of ASP, ASP+
will
> include support for a new language called C#, which is going to be a kind
of
> subset of the C langauge with improved handling of Internet based
> information (such as information returned from forms). I personally use
both
> for different purposes and I would suggest that PHP is great to program,
but
> I'm only used to using it on Linux. I have no idea how strong it is on
> Windows.
>
> Sorry, I didn't want to muddy the waters for you, but your choice might be
> made easier considering that there are no ISP's running ASP+ yet. There's
> more information here:
> <wrap>
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/code/sample.asp%3Furl%3
> D/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml
> </wrap>
> and at www.asptoday.com
>
> Aside from that, as a beginner, whichever method you choose, you should
> almost certainly take an existing script and modify it to your needs.
That's
> how I have learnt every programming language I use today. It saves a LOT
of
> time and for the sort of functionality you require there are many
solutions
> already available.
>
> If you are looking to the future with your application and see that you
will
> need to update the selection frequently, then you are almost certainly
> right, that a database solution will be best. However, even in that case,
I
> personally would store the images themselves in normal directories and the
> the information about each image (name, order, description etc) in the
> database itself.
>
> Wah - that looks like I've given loads of random info to you there! I hope
> it ends up being helpful.
>
> .steve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kevin raleigh [mailto:krr at ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: den 11 augusti 2000 08:23
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: Re: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
> >
> >
> > Just started reading about PHP and it sounds infinitely
> > simpler to deploy.
> > Not sure i mentioned this in my previous article but I took
> > an intro course
> > to the C language. After reading two intro articles for PHP
> > it seems to me
> > that if I need the facilities of a server language then PHP
> > would be the
> > obvious choice.
> > Could you comment on this??
> >
> > As for your suggestions, the reason I thought of a server
> > image data base
> > was that this would enable unlimited growth for the image
> > catalog. I thought
> > it would make it easier in the long run.
> > Will have to spend some time looking thru your ideas before I go any
> > further.
> >
> > Good news today! Just got my new software... Dreamweaver...
> > Any comments,
> > suggestions, etc...Already thinking of Ultradev...
> > thanx
> > krr
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From erika at seastorm.com  Fri Aug 11 21:28:18 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Fri Aug 11 21:28:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
In-Reply-To: <9BAE38A9FFC8D311B56000508B732A0351F8A5@LAXMSG01>
References: <9BAE38A9FFC8D311B56000508B732A0351F8A5@LAXMSG01>
Message-ID: <v04220803b5ba63fcbf08@[209.213.150.231]>

>Content Managers, or copy editors or what-job-title-have-you are responsible
>for literally "crafting" better words (or verbiage) to satisfy a message
>that has been entirely conceived by someone else, specifically, the client.

A better term for this would be "editing."

Without ever having heard it used in actual speech, "craft verbiage" 
sounds a bit tongue-in-cheek to me.  As if one isn't actually editing 
(as in 'editing for clarity') but is actually pumping up the BS aka 
buzzwords.

"I am going to craft verbiage..." it sounds slangy, like

"let's purchase some munchables" instead of
"let's buy snacks."

verbiage.  dude!

sounds like CA surfer-talk.

erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From thesite at lists.evolt.org  Sat Aug 12 00:01:39 2000
From: thesite at lists.evolt.org (thesite at lists.evolt.org)
Date: Sat Aug 12 00:01:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 12-Aug-00
Message-ID: <200008120519.AAA16676@poet.oracular.com>


evolt.org headlines for 12-Aug-00

Web Accessibility Evaluators Needed
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=23&cid=2850


Happy reading...

the evolt.org admin team





From Kingorbitao at aol.com  Sat Aug 12 01:00:37 2000
From: Kingorbitao at aol.com (Kingorbitao at aol.com)
Date: Sat Aug 12 01:00:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <76.20b88d5.26c64171@aol.com>

meredith at pintsize.com writes:

<< <tip>When in doubt, use words that don't cost 25 cents.</tip> >>

<tip>Also when in doubt, don't use words that give you, or anyone else, an 
andrenaline rush. Especially not marketing department-types.</tip>



From martin at members.evolt.org  Sat Aug 12 02:52:37 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 12 02:52:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Compaq thin client devices
Message-ID: <E13NW3u-000PBD-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

Richard H. Morris wrote on 11/8/00 4:44 pm

>> Has anyone used/got strong opinions on the Compaq WinCE devices
>> as consumer devices for internet access?
>
>When I was looking for a PDA, I looked at the Aero range from Compaq.
>
>The only thing that put me off was their physical size - it would have to go
>in a briefcase rather than a pocket - and hence I bought a Palm V.

>
>Now, call me old-fashioned, but if I want to browse the web I'll use a
>laptop or desktop with a faster connection than 9600bps and a bigger
>screen...

Nah - it's not a PDA, it's more like a set-top box.

(and for PDA, I'll go Palm every time)

Cheers
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: martin at members.evolt.org              PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
  tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418                snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
 http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=9&uid=32            Edinburgh, Scotland




From martin at members.evolt.org  Sat Aug 12 03:18:58 2000
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 12 03:18:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <E13NWTW-0009mK-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>

Erin Kissane wrote on 11/8/00 7:50 pm

>"to leverage."  As in, "we'll leverage that message.
... at a granular level.

>"to message." As in "we'll message this as strongly as possible."
...to the enterprise audience.

> and today's winner:
>"to craft verbiage."  As in TO WRITE, for the love of GOD.
My fave: "Let's russian doll this text". I *think* it meant
to reduce it in size, but can't be sure.

Cheers
Martin

------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: martin at members.evolt.org              PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
  tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418                snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
 http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=9&uid=32            Edinburgh, Scotland




From ervsplace at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 12 10:57:16 2000
From: ervsplace at hotmail.com (Dan Shafer)
Date: Sat Aug 12 10:57:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] list folder contents
Message-ID: <F167OUIHNkjgJKVApwO00001add@hotmail.com>

I am trying to set a link up to a folder which then would display its 
contents in a list form.
Is there any special syntax to do this?
Does this folder have to be located on the same server?
Can the list be displayed alphabetically, size, etc?

Thanks for any ideas
Dan
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Aug 12 11:56:44 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy limeback)
Date: Sat Aug 12 11:56:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
Message-ID: <01c0047e$011f6900$b952059a@default>

>Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Syntax error (missing operator)
in
>query expression 'MinimumVehicleSize IN (Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck)
>and Available = 1'.
>
>So what is the missing operator? And thanks Rudy for your input but I'm
>afraid that didn't work either
>
>SELECT * FROM Deliveries where MinimumVehicleSize IN ("&pcnum&")



hi kev

sorry for the delay, my  home phone has been totally hosed

the answer is, you have to put the individual strings inside single quotes

so

   where MinimumVehicleSize IN ("&pcnum&")

is still okay, but it has to resolve to

  where MinimumVehicleSize IN ('Motorbike', 'Transit', '7 Ton Truck')

but this should be easy, you can do it in your form field values...


rude





From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 12 13:15:23 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Aug 12 13:15:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] list folder contents
In-Reply-To: <F167OUIHNkjgJKVApwO00001add@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200008121813.LAA10449@smtp3-cm.mail.eni.net>

> From: "Dan Shafer" <ervsplace at hotmail.com>
>
> I am trying to set a link up to a folder which then would display its
> contents in a list form. Is there any special syntax to do this? Does
> this folder have to be located on the same server? Can the list be
> displayed alphabetically, size, etc?

what platform?

in IIS, i can help... ultimately, though, the files and sub-folders will 
be listed alphabetically... if anyone knows how to do it by date on a 
shared NT host, lemme know...

but once you get a folder/file 'object' into your SSI, then you can 
stuff into an ordered list, unordered, dictionary, etc., or just stuff 
breaks in, whatever you want, really...

as for having it on the same server, on an NT box, you can have the 
server mapped to a network machine/folder, but i wouldn't 
recommend it...



From amanda at gawow.com  Sat Aug 12 13:29:57 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 12 13:29:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
In-Reply-To: <39933778.9B7B4C50@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKMEIDDBAA.amanda@gawow.com>

Doesn't homesite do this? It basically counts up your dependencies and makes
a guesstimate on download time.

- amanda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Dave Stevens
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 4:15 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] I need a Web doctor
>
>
> > >Anyone know of a site that will analyse the characteristics of a Web
> > >page (i.e. page size, download time, etc)? The one I usually use isn't
> > online >anymore. TIA
>
> I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard
> http://websitegarage.netscape.com is
> good.
> HTH
> Mr Dave
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Sat Aug 12 15:07:49 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sat Aug 12 15:07:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
Message-ID: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>

Greetings one and all,

Could a few of you please spare a few minutes to check out a preview
site for my band's website, squalidnet at:
http://squalidnet.port5.com 

I'm generally looking for comments on layout, design, colours, and how
it looks/works on any platforms other than PC Win95 NN4.72. 

I realise that I owe a tip or two seeing as this is the second critique
I've asked for, so please rest assured that as soon as I think up a tip
that is worthy of posting, it will be posted.

Many thanks,
Mr Dave



From markg at tiac.net  Sat Aug 12 17:50:50 2000
From: markg at tiac.net (Mark Gregor)
Date: Sat Aug 12 17:50:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLMCJKLHKEKMOGBKNGEJACDAA.wxplanet@sunflower.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net>

I'm sure they'll be a flurry of responses to this one, but here goes:

A liquid site essentially auto sizes the page design and content to fit the
size of the browser.  It traditionally uses tables with cells defined as
percentages of the browser rather than fixed pixel widths.

A liquid site would be http://www.water.com/ while http://www.ice.com/ is
"ice" (everything is fixed width..nothing changes when you resize your
browser) and http://www.middle.com is "jello" (the content floats in the
middle of the page regardless of your browser size).

I think the terms liquid, ice, and jello were coined by our friends at
projectcool.com.

Anyway, that's the scoop!  Oh, and liquid is usually better, jello is ok,
and ice is so 1998.

-Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Janet F.
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 2:48 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
>
>
>
> Ok,
>
> I'm feeling stupid for asking this, but it keeps coming up.  What is meant
> by a "liquid site"?  Thanks for not laughing too loud at me.
>
> Janet :)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Aug 12 17:59:33 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (Jeff)
Date: Sat Aug 12 17:59:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <01e101c004b0$5bff7f40$0600a8c0@alphashop.com>

mark,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Mark Gregor <markg at tiac.net>
:
: http://www.middle.com is "jello" (the content floats
: in the middle of the page regardless of your browser
: size).
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

actually, always thought jello was a site that floated in the middle,
resized to accommodate the browser window, but never quite filled the window
(ie 80% width on the tables instead of 100%).

here's an example of what i'm talking about:

http://www.gemsnjewelry.com/

thanks,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org




From lwkraemer at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 12 18:01:50 2000
From: lwkraemer at earthlink.net (elkay)
Date: Sat Aug 12 18:01:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c004b0$2c65d400$81c80e3f@lonnie>

Personally, I like the simplicity and the colors. It seems to work well here
on Win98SE, IE 5.

I suspect that Guestbook, Chat and Site don't work as they're still in the
works.

The CSS text size MAY be too small on MAC. I'll leave that for MAC folks.

I don't like images that load in a new window with no obvious way back to
the site. Maybe just an indication that the image will spawn a new window
and do an X to return?

I'm not too keen either on having to download a .zip file to read lyrics. Is
there a reason you can't just show the lyrics?

I think the pages bottom out too abruptly! I feel there should be more, if
even just some white space.

The "home" mouseover/replace effect hurts. A nice photographic image is
replaced by a duplicate of the smaller adjacent image supposedly just to get
back home? It says "go home", but it isn't linked. Where did that nice image
go?  I tried trice but it burns.

------------------------
Lonnie W. Kraemer
Freelance Web Design/Development
http://www.lkraemer.com
lonnie at lkraemer.com
--------------------------------------------
- t r a n s m i s s i o n   c o m p l e t e -
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stevens" <squalid at libertysurf.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:03 PM
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)


> Greetings one and all,
>
> Could a few of you please spare a few minutes to check out a preview
> site for my band's website, squalidnet at:
> http://squalidnet.port5.com
>
> I'm generally looking for comments on layout, design, colours, and how
> it looks/works on any platforms other than PC Win95 NN4.72.
>
> I realise that I owe a tip or two seeing as this is the second critique
> I've asked for, so please rest assured that as soon as I think up a tip
> that is worthy of posting, it will be posted.
>
> Many thanks,
> Mr Dave
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From oliver at lineham.co.nz  Sat Aug 12 18:49:59 2000
From: oliver at lineham.co.nz (Oliver Lineham)
Date: Sat Aug 12 18:49:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
In-Reply-To: <01e101c004b0$5bff7f40$0600a8c0@alphashop.com>
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>

At 15:55 12/08/00 -0700, you wrote:

>actually, always thought jello was a site that floated in the middle,
>resized to accommodate the browser window, but never quite filled the window
>(ie 80% width on the tables instead of 100%).

i consider jello to be fixed-but-centered.  the distinction between 100% 
and less than 100% is very fine.  they're both relative to the size of the 
window, and when you start boiling it down it's essentially the same as 
liquid..

i mean, what would you call a 100%-wide table that has its two side cells 
empty but set to 10%?


bah, it's just quibbling over semantics i guess.

</ol>

____________________________________________________
     v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
  po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
  phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz



From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Aug 12 19:02:39 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (Jeff)
Date: Sat Aug 12 19:02:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net> <4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <021d01c004b9$2cde4940$0600a8c0@alphashop.com>

<ol>,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Oliver Lineham <oliver at lineham.co.nz>
:
: i mean, what would you call a 100%-wide table that
: has its two side cells empty but set to 10%?
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

it depends on whether or not the 10% on either side looked like it was part
of the design or part of the underlying background.  to me the determination
of whether a site is ice, jello, or liquid is in what the layout looks like,
not the underlying html.  if i resize my window and it stays the same it's
ice.  if i resize it and it always *fills* the window it's liquid.  if i
resize and it resizes but still maintains some padding, then it's jello.

if you think of the browser window as a container, then the words ice,
jello, and liquid make more sense.  with nothing to contain it, liquids flow
all the way to the sides.  ice doesn't flow at all, in fact it pushes out of
the container (provided the container is weaker) if the container is smaller
than the piece of ice.  jello on the other hand is somewhat solid, somewhat
liquid.  it will lazily stretch to a certain point, never quite filling the
container, unless the container shrinks down to the point where the jello
can no longer be compacted.

hope this clarifies,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org




From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Sat Aug 12 19:18:05 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sat Aug 12 19:18:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk> <002301c004b0$2c65d400$81c80e3f@lonnie>
Message-ID: <3995E83F.43903FDF@libertysurf.co.uk>

> Personally, I like the simplicity and the colors. It seems to work well here
> on Win98SE, IE 5.
Thankyou, I spent quite a while designing this one.

> I suspect that Guestbook, Chat and Site don't work as they're still in the
> works.
Yes, that is indeed correct, I forgot to mention that in my original
post
Apologies!

> The CSS text size MAY be too small on MAC. I'll leave that for MAC folks.
Thanks for this bit of information - I have no experience with MACs so
comments would be appreciated.

> I don't like images that load in a new window with no obvious way back to
> the site. Maybe just an indication that the image will spawn a new window
> and do an X to return?
I'll put this in - does anyone else have any problem with this?

> I'm not too keen either on having to download a .zip file to read lyrics. Is
> there a reason you can't just show the lyrics?
Well the lyrics are displayed when you click on the song title, the only
use of .zip files is to download sounds, because they were such large
files.....I think this is the sort of thing I need to explain in "Site
Help" when I finish it.

> I think the pages bottom out too abruptly! I feel there should be more, if
> even just some white space.

I must admit, you're not the first person to point this out (naughty mr
dave :) ) This will be fixed.

> The "home" mouseover/replace effect hurts. A nice photographic image is
> replaced by a duplicate of the smaller adjacent image supposedly just to get
> back home? It says "go home", but it isn't linked. Where did that nice image
> go?  I tried trice but it burns.
Is this happening to anyone else that uses IE? This doesn't happen when
I go to the site, but I'm using Netscape 4.72 so this could be something
to do with IE....Are there any known differences in the way that IE
handles MouseOvers? Sorry if I'm being thick.

Thanks for your swift reply, your comments are appreciated.
Mr "I'm working on that tip" Dave



From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Aug 12 22:20:41 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy limeback)
Date: Sat Aug 12 22:20:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
Message-ID: <01c004d4$fd0dece0$0100007f@localhost>

> BAD idea to hold images in a database. Real bad.
> Bloats the database and increases the retrieval time,
> among other things. Rudy will probably tell you the same
> (and more) too.


hi madhu

thanks for the advert    ;o)

the main problem with storing images in a database is that the sql to
insert them is yucky (that's a technical term that i'm not sure i can
explain) and the sql to get them out is equally so

not to mention the fact that different databases will handle them
differently (blobs, clobs, what-have-you)

as for bloat, i don't think that's an issue, because although databases do
add some storage overhead, with good ones (industrial strength databases)
the space overhead is a small fraction of total database size -- unless you
require a "clustering index" (to keep your records in some kind of physical
sequence) which implies you need to keep some free space for inserts....


> Better solution: Keep a varchar field (Text in Access) and store
> only the physical location of the file. Small database; real quick
> retrieval and serving of images.

yes, sometimes the simplest solutions are best...

store the files in an ordinary file folder or directory. and construct the
html img tags using the path string that's stored in the varchar field in
the database


rudy.limeback
r937.com
evolt.org




From oliver at lineham.co.nz  Sun Aug 13 00:03:13 2000
From: oliver at lineham.co.nz (Oliver Lineham)
Date: Sun Aug 13 00:03:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
In-Reply-To: <021d01c004b9$2cde4940$0600a8c0@alphashop.com>
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net>
 <4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000813165225.00b703f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>

At 16:58 12/08/00 -0700, you wrote:

>if you think of the browser window as a container, then the words ice,
>jello, and liquid make more sense.  with nothing to contain it, liquids flow
>all the way to the sides.  ice doesn't flow at all, in fact it pushes out of
>the container (provided the container is weaker) if the container is smaller
>than the piece of ice.  jello on the other hand is somewhat solid, somewhat
>liquid.  it will lazily stretch to a certain point, never quite filling the
>container, unless the container shrinks down to the point where the jello
>can no longer be compacted.

that certainly makes the analogy accurate, but my point is more to do with 
how useful each definition is.

if a site is set to 80% and centered, i don't consider it in any way 
inferior to a site which we both agree is "liquid". the design is in the 
spirit of cross-browser/platform compatibility.

however, i do consider a fixed-but-centered page to be inferior to a liquid 
design.

while a fixed-width left-aligned page is (in most cases) worse still.

that's why i consider my interpretation of the term "jello" as more useful, 
even if it doesn't strictly analogise (woah, talk about inventing words!)

</ol>

aside:  we don't use the word jello in this part of the world.  what you 
call jello, we call jelly.  what you call jelly, we sort of call jam 
(sometimes jelly).  just to add to the confusion ;)

____________________________________________________
     v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
  po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
  phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz



From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Aug 13 00:24:57 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (Jeff)
Date: Sun Aug 13 00:24:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net><4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz> <4.2.0.58.20000813165225.00b703f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <098701c004e6$32c16c20$0600a8c0@alphashop.com>

<ol>,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Oliver Lineham <oliver at lineham.co.nz>
:
: that certainly makes the analogy accurate, but my point
: is more to do with how useful each definition is.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

as does mine.  *grin*

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: if a site is set to 80% and centered, i don't consider it in
: any way inferior to a site which we both agree is "liquid".
: the design is in the spirit of cross-browser/platform
: compatibility.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i wouldn't consider a site that's 80% and centered to be in anyway inferior
to a liquid site either.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: however, i do consider a fixed-but-centered page to be
: inferior to a liquid design.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

yes, and that would an ice layout, except it's thawed alittle so it floats
around the container on it's own viscus layer.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: while a fixed-width left-aligned page is (in most cases)
: worse still.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

agreed.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: that's why i consider my interpretation of the term
: "jello" as more useful, even if it doesn't strictly
: analogise (woah, talk about inventing words!)
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i see jello as a good thing, in essence just another kind of liquid.  ice,
on the other hand, floating around centered or slammed against one side or
the other just sucks all the way around.

just my 2?,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org




From donnajj at gwi.net  Sun Aug 13 01:12:23 2000
From: donnajj at gwi.net (Donna Jones)
Date: Sun Aug 13 01:12:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39963BD4.68D81497@gwi.net>

Hi Mr. Dave:

A few things.  I really like it, first of all.  

I don't think I'm getting the same effect in the mouse-over that Elkay
is getting, it seems okay to me, but I looked with NN (well, let me pull
out IE).   Ah, yes I see, it is "painful".  Well, back to the drawing
board w/ that one --- especially since most folks are going to be
looking at it with IE.  I did, however, get [even when still on the home
page] the "go home" mouse-over, and I don't think you want that.

I agree it bottoms out too fast, just a few more lines would feel more
comfortable.

You say the band is from the Reading area.  Do you mean Reading,
Pennsylvania... you might want to add that, and even consider adding
United States?  

i do think the font will be too small for a mac, but hopefully a real
mac person will look and let you know for sure.  

i like your writing style, and i think it reads well, and that's one of
the hardest things to get together.

Best wishes,
Donna

Dave Stevens wrote:
> 
> Greetings one and all,
> 
> Could a few of you please spare a few minutes to check out a preview
> site for my band's website, squalidnet at:
> http://squalidnet.port5.com
> 
> I'm generally looking for comments on layout, design, colours, and how
> it looks/works on any platforms other than PC Win95 NN4.72.
> 
> I realise that I owe a tip or two seeing as this is the second critique
> I've asked for, so please rest assured that as soon as I think up a tip
> that is worthy of posting, it will be posted.
> 
> Many thanks,
> Mr Dave
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Jones: 207.772.0266
Home Site:  http://www.westendwebs.com
Have you been to the hunger site ( http://thehungersite.com/ ) today?



From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 02:16:15 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 02:16:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <01c004d4$fd0dece0$0100007f@localhost>
Message-ID: <002101c004f7$1673e0a0$0200000a@pavilion>

This sounds like something I wish I could understand.
I haven't even approached databases, sql "define",blobs"define",
clobs"define",

> > Better solution: Keep a varchar field (Text in Access) and store
> > only the physical location of the file. Small database; real quick
> > retrieval and serving of images.
 Used variables in an intro course for C but that as you know is step one of
"variable ( ..)" little humor.
Of course if you had the time and wanted to educate someone that tends to be
very ambitious in learning, and comprehension.
That would be very cool.

Then again without comprehension, It would be hard to say what it is that I
would need to study to begin the first step in working with this
information. I can say that the rudiments of database construction using
Access 97 is feasible, although physically programming it is not. "Thinking
in terms of using the WYSIWYG part of access 97 to build the database."

krr
----- Original Message -----
From: "rudy limeback" <r937 at interlog.com>
To: "evolt thelist" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images


> > BAD idea to hold images in a database. Real bad.
> > Bloats the database and increases the retrieval time,
> > among other things. Rudy will probably tell you the same
> > (and more) too.
>
>
> hi madhu
>
> thanks for the advert    ;o)
>
> the main problem with storing images in a database is that the sql to
> insert them is yucky (that's a technical term that i'm not sure i can
> explain) and the sql to get them out is equally so
>
> not to mention the fact that different databases will handle them
> differently (blobs, clobs, what-have-you)
>
> as for bloat, i don't think that's an issue, because although databases do
> add some storage overhead, with good ones (industrial strength databases)
> the space overhead is a small fraction of total database size -- unless
you
> require a "clustering index" (to keep your records in some kind of
physical
> sequence) which implies you need to keep some free space for inserts....
>
>
> > Better solution: Keep a varchar field (Text in Access) and store
> > only the physical location of the file. Small database; real quick
> > retrieval and serving of images.
>
> yes, sometimes the simplest solutions are best...
>
> store the files in an ordinary file folder or directory. and construct the
> html img tags using the path string that's stored in the varchar field in
> the database
>
>
> rudy.limeback
> r937.com
> evolt.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 02:23:05 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 02:23:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net><4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz> <4.2.0.58.20000813165225.00b703f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <002901c004f8$0b0a5180$0200000a@pavilion>

I have to say that this site is pretty cool in terms of its flexibility
across platforms and browser resolutions.
I have been trying to punch a hole in the site and make it fall apart.
The reason being is I never see sites built in this fashion.
I have three tables all set using percentages and all of them float freely
on the web page independent of each other.
Can someone take a look at it and tell me if what I am doing has a flaw??

I haven't been able to find one, but then I haven't installed my selection
of test browsers yet.
Will state that I choose the em unit for fonts and that if you max out on
the font size if does change the nav bar considerably.
http://home.netcom.com/~krr/testCase/testCase.html
Note: the border around the text table is for design purposes and will be
removed when the site is put into use.

any insight appreciated
thanx
krr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Lineham" <oliver at lineham.co.nz>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Liquidity


> At 16:58 12/08/00 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >if you think of the browser window as a container, then the words ice,
> >jello, and liquid make more sense.  with nothing to contain it, liquids
flow
> >all the way to the sides.  ice doesn't flow at all, in fact it pushes out
of
> >the container (provided the container is weaker) if the container is
smaller
> >than the piece of ice.  jello on the other hand is somewhat solid,
somewhat
> >liquid.  it will lazily stretch to a certain point, never quite filling
the
> >container, unless the container shrinks down to the point where the jello
> >can no longer be compacted.
>
> that certainly makes the analogy accurate, but my point is more to do with
> how useful each definition is.
>
> if a site is set to 80% and centered, i don't consider it in any way
> inferior to a site which we both agree is "liquid". the design is in the
> spirit of cross-browser/platform compatibility.
>
> however, i do consider a fixed-but-centered page to be inferior to a
liquid
> design.
>
> while a fixed-width left-aligned page is (in most cases) worse still.
>
> that's why i consider my interpretation of the term "jello" as more
useful,
> even if it doesn't strictly analogise (woah, talk about inventing words!)
>
> </ol>
>
> aside:  we don't use the word jello in this part of the world.  what you
> call jello, we call jelly.  what you call jelly, we sort of call jam
> (sometimes jelly).  just to add to the confusion ;)
>
> ____________________________________________________
>      v i b e   m e d i a    http://www.vibe.co.nz/
>   po box 10-492              wellington, new zealand
>   phone +64 21 210-7845         oliver at lineham.co.nz
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From madstone at madstone.net  Sun Aug 13 08:30:24 2000
From: madstone at madstone.net (Jorah Lavin)
Date: Sun Aug 13 08:30:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
In-Reply-To: <39963BD4.68D81497@gwi.net>
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000813090622.00a9f4b0@mail.madstone.net>

At 02:10 AM 8/13/00, you wrote:
> > Greetings one and all,
> >
> > Could a few of you please spare a few minutes to check out a preview
> > site for my band's website, squalidnet at:
> > http://squalidnet.port5.com


On my older PC monitor, set to 256, you can clearly see the background area 
of the logo... it doesn't blend well with the background of the page 
itself. (can you make it transparent?)

I hated the mouse-over that causes me to lose the band photo.

I wanted to see some visual alignment somewhere... at the very least, I'd 
think that the width of the top menu could match the width of the header, 
and the height of the logo could be the same as the band photo.  Maybe the 
logo and the band image could be merged somehow?

Your HTML validates: 
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://squalidnet.port5.com/lyrics.html 
on the lyrics page, but the CSS is a mess.  http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

I would lose that damned mouse-over on the band photo... if you want to 
play with the red "go home" scrawl, then use the logo itself for the 
action. (better yet, use some CSS effects on the text menu to give some 
light mouse-over feel to the page)

If I were you, I'd not write in third-person; it seems pretentious to me.

Find someone who has a good knack with a camera, and put up only the 
sharpest, best images.  Film is cheap.  Shoot 90-120 photos over a few days 
and chose the best 10 for the site.  (Maybe you can find a budding 
photojournalist who would like to have her name online in return for doing 
the photo work for you?)  [IMHO, this sort of funkiness can work... 
http://squalidnet.port5.com/images/pics/non-live/mrdave1.jpg for your band, 
so build on it!]

The writing style is fun and light.  Show me more writing, tell me when and 
where the band will be playing again... build a real style online that 
reflects what you are trying to project on the stage.

-Jorah






From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Aug 13 08:41:01 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy limeback)
Date: Sun Aug 13 08:41:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
Message-ID: <01c00529$a0a156e0$c852059a@default>

> Of course if you had the time and wanted to educate someone
> that tends to be very ambitious in learning, and comprehension.
> That would be very cool.

hi kevin

start by reading the tutorials listed here --

  SQL and Database Resources on the Web
  http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=1618&catid=18


>...  the rudiments of database construction

hee hee     ;o)


> "Thinking in terms of using the WYSIWYG part
> of access 97 to build the database."

that's okay, nothing wrong with using a tool to accomplish an objective

it's quick and easy and has one important benefit -- you get faster
feedback, which reinforces learning

also, there's no easy way to remove or rename a column except in design
view

so go to it and give a shout if you need help


rudi






From joxn at vernum.com  Sun Aug 13 08:41:45 2000
From: joxn at vernum.com (Joxn)
Date: Sun Aug 13 08:41:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] perl: sorting and umlauts
Message-ID: <3996A52B.A83D7FA9@vernum.com>

Hi,
I have a list with country names in German language and want to sort it
by name. However, when I just use 'sort', I get this result:

Belgien
Deutschland
D?nemark
Schweiz
?sterreich

instead of:

Belgien
D?nemark
Deutschland
?sterreich
Schweiz

What's the easiest way to solve this problem?

TIA,
Joxn
-- 
   || //\\ \\// |\\||  ::  mailto:joxn at vernum.com  ::
 \\|| \\// //\\ ||\\|  ::      ICQ:8053703         ::



From tonyc at boldfish.co.uk  Sun Aug 13 08:46:07 2000
From: tonyc at boldfish.co.uk (Tony Crockford)
Date: Sun Aug 13 08:46:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] Form quirks with colored backgrounds in Explorer
In-Reply-To: <002901c004f8$0b0a5180$0200000a@pavilion>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLOGKNBIKOOOOAJAIENGDBAA.tonyc@boldfish.co.uk>

Hi

I've been trying to fix an alignment problem - my search submit button
doesn't line up with my text input box.

I've wasted so many hours on it and have finally discovered that it is
background colour dependant.

the lighter the colour the better the alignment looks.

see http://www.boldfish.co.uk/test.htm  for an example

(Note Netscape users won't see this the same way IE users will!)

I think it has a lot to do with the way IE5.0 draws the 3d effects that make
up the box and button bevel, using different colours (or maybe the same) on
different backgrounds.

Anyway, I've got a dark background on an IE5.0 intranet and the button won't
line up with the box.

Anyone got any clever IE5.0 specific ways of making it look better?

TIA

Tony




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Aug 13 09:19:40 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (i)
Date: Sun Aug 13 09:19:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
In-Reply-To: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>



> http://squalidnet.port5.com

WinNT/IE5

Choice of blue is pretty decent (anyone who doesn't use 0000ff (bleargh!) wins
points with me).

Why is the title (as in the image, not the <title>) "squalidnet.com", when the
band's name is "Squalid"? You need to make every visitor know that name...

Top photo is dark and blurred - very, very poor choice for a key image.

Sorry dude, but that mouseover "go home" thing that others have mentioned is
fucking horrible. Not quite eye-raping, but pretty bad.

If a band site needs a "site help" section, then you've screwed it up. You
shouldn't need one. If you need an area to point to downloads of media streaming
plugins or something, then only link that when required.

The image pop-ups in a whole new window are pretty lazy (I know - I do it
sometimes too), but if this is your band, then you have no excuse but to do it
properly and size the window at least, and provide a close/next/previous link or
something.

While you're doing that, throw in some title attributes on your links (text and
image).

Layout wise, the site rates pretty poorly. You have zero alignment. No
structure. The whitespace is great but your text aligns with nothing. Your nav
just floats. The top key image is just sitting there.

While I'm awake, I'll check it in Netscape4 without images, JS, CSS, or Java.
This is how I surf most sites (reading news, etc) to save on bandwidth. You're
missing a few ALT tags - they're easy to throw in, so don't be cheap. Apart from
that, the content is all there and readable. Good to see that you're relying on
CSS to do the showy stuff, and not using javascript for anything essential.


Do you really need a chatroom? Could you not better serve existing fans by
allowing them to find out when next to catch you playing?

>From a content perspective, I'd start by using a more casual writing style.
Introduce yourselves and keep it friendly. Then get some great photos taken by a
photographer friend or something. And record a CD and get some mp3s up there.
Prospective fans are not going to come back to hear the real mp3s - they want
your best efforts now. Spare some cash to get something recorded. It's
frustrating to like and want to support a band, only to have no CD/quality
recordings to listen to...

Make the frontdoor more interesting - something like this is really cool:

	http://www.rogertheband.com/news.htm

Roger the Band are some guys who I help out by hosting their site. They keep
fans up to date on gigs and everyday stuff. Check out the snippets of sound in
their demo MP3 on this page: http://www.rogertheband.com/meet.html. They have
some ultra-cool stuff and play a great live show.


Hopefully something amongst this helps you out - even if it only helps convince
you that the "go home" image is a terrible idea... ;)


isaac





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Aug 13 09:30:13 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (i)
Date: Sun Aug 13 09:30:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
In-Reply-To: <002901c004f8$0b0a5180$0200000a@pavilion>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBMEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>


> Will state that I choose the em unit for fonts and that if you max out on
> the font size if does change the nav bar considerably.
> http://home.netcom.com/~krr/testCase/testCase.html
> Note: the border around the text table is for design purposes and will be
> removed when the site is put into use.

I tried it in IE5 and it looked crap when I stretched it past about 1000px. I
maximised to 2560px horizontally, and it screwed up big time.

Or was I meant to ignore that blue bevel/border in the background?


isaac




From peter at vardus.com  Sun Aug 13 10:22:59 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Sun Aug 13 10:22:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] my own server, or not?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000813161243.01eca100@smtp.vardus.net>

I am VERY tempted to get my own server for only 29 pounds a month. I'll 
prob. also pay the support, so +5 pounds. And I realise I'll probably have 
to pay 100 pound the first year when I mess up and they need to do 
something manually for me. So that's 500 pounds for a year.

I've got the digitalspace.net deal now for 36$ a year X 8 sites. That's 150 
pounds a year. But I can't install php4 or anything, and they are slow. 
Seems my own server would be way faster.

So my questions: what am I missing in these calculations? 500 pounds is an 
investment, so I want to make the right choice. Also: when their service 
gets popular (as it will), can that really slow down my server? Or doesn't 
it work like that?? I know that on digitalspace I share server with lots of 
other sites, and it does get really slow.

One other thing, from my 8 sites, there is right now only one serious one 
(popular one), so the others are basically fine on their slow host. It's 
just that I can't install PHP4 and things...

And finally, has anyone experience with these cobalt raqs, or with 
powerraq? Are the cobalt raqs easy to use, or do they have quirks?
http://powerraq.com/ offer the deal.

Thanks for your help, I find it hard to make such a heavy decision...
Peter




From Anthony at Baratta.com  Sun Aug 13 10:39:51 2000
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Sun Aug 13 10:39:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] perl: sorting and umlauts
References: <3996A52B.A83D7FA9@vernum.com>
Message-ID: <3996C0DF.30185940@Baratta.com>

Joxn wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I have a list with country names in German language and want to sort it
> by name. However, when I just use 'sort', I get this result:

Try looking at CPAN.org and see what other people are doing visa vi Perl and
Non-English Language problems like this. One thing I found is this:

	http://search.cpan.org/doc/GAAS/Norge-1.06/No/Sort.pm

I also found this, but not sure if it will help:

	http://search.cpan.org/doc/DMACKS/Sort-PolySort-0.12/lib/Sort/PolySort.pm

-- 
Anthony Baratta
President
KeyBoard Jockeys
                    South Park Speaks Version 3 is here!!!
                       http://www.baratta.com/southpark
                              Powered by Tsunami



From kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com  Sun Aug 13 12:03:30 2000
From: kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com (kev.skindrill)
Date: Sun Aug 13 12:03:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL
References: <01c0047e$011f6900$b952059a@default>
Message-ID: <004801c00548$9c894580$f616893e@v0d8h2>

>    where MinimumVehicleSize IN ("&pcnum&")
>
> is still okay, but it has to resolve to
>
>   where MinimumVehicleSize IN ('Motorbike', 'Transit', '7 Ton Truck')
>
> but this should be easy, you can do it in your form field values...

PING! (sound of lightbulb going on above Kevs head) Of course, I see where
the single quotes come in now. The problem was that I copied the code from
another page where I was putting numbers as a string into the SQL statement
which don't need single quotes, so all I had to do was alter the string from

elseif request.form("minsize")="7 Ton Truck" then
 pcnum="Motorbike, Transit, 7 Ton Truck"

to

elseif request.form("minsize")="7 Ton Truck" then
 pcnum="'Motorbike', 'Transit', '7 Ton Truck'"

Blindingly obvious, thank you Steve & Rudy

K




From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Sun Aug 13 12:37:17 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sun Aug 13 12:37:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3996DBD4.6D1E6526@libertysurf.co.uk>

> Choice of blue is pretty decent (anyone who doesn't use 0000ff (bleargh!) wins
> points with me).

My fave colour, dontcha know!

> Why is the title (as in the image, not the <title>) "squalidnet.com", when the
> band's name is "Squalid"? You need to make every visitor know that name...

Now thats a valid point - I'll prob. swap it for the band logo - that
would make sense.

> Top photo is dark and blurred - very, very poor choice for a key image.

Well I wanted a live action photo on the main page and we're a new band
who don't play much so that was the only choice really cos it had most
of the band visible.

> Sorry dude, but that mouseover "go home" thing that others have mentioned is
> fucking horrible. Not quite eye-raping, but pretty bad.

Its going, don't worry - the "go home" thing was an in-joke in the band
anyway - no one else understands it. If you spend any time with us, yea
it would be funny but most visitors won't. Tis being removed soon.

> If a band site needs a "site help" section, then you've screwed it up. You
> shouldn't need one. If you need an area to point to downloads of media streaming
> plugins or something, then only link that when required.

This has already been removed in the next update - I came to the same
conclusion.

> The image pop-ups in a whole new window are pretty lazy (I know - I do it
> sometimes too), but if this is your band, then you have no excuse but to do it
> properly and size the window at least, and provide a close/next/previous link or
> something.

I'll give this some thought

> While you're doing that, throw in some title attributes on your links (text and
> image).

could someone explain what this does? Sorry....

> Layout wise, the site rates pretty poorly. You have zero alignment. No
> structure. The whitespace is great but your text aligns with nothing. 
pictures maybe? like on the band page? good idea? bad idea?

>Your nav
> just floats. The top key image is just sitting there.
I just wanted it to be simple to find the navigation. 

> While I'm awake, I'll check it in Netscape4 without images, JS, CSS, or Java.
> This is how I surf most sites (reading news, etc) to save on bandwidth. You're
> missing a few ALT tags - they're easy to throw in, so don't be cheap. Will do - laziness on my part.

>Apart from
> that, the content is all there and readable. Good to see that you're relying on
> CSS to do the showy stuff, and not using javascript for anything essential.

Years with a pitiful computer (before I got this) led me to learn not to
be too flash with the JavaScript. 

> Do you really need a chatroom? Could you not better serve existing fans by
> allowing them to find out when next to catch you playing?

Well...no....but we don't get many gigs - this is Britain you must
understand....no excuse I know but....

>From a content perspective, I'd start by using a more casual writing >style.

Do i sound a bit formal then? Thats not what I'm wanting....

>And record a CD and get some mp3s up there.
> Prospective fans are not going to come back to hear the real mp3s - they want
> your best efforts now. 

We're recording a CD in 3 weeks - this should be a problem that goes...

> Make the frontdoor more interesting - something like this is really cool:
>         http://www.rogertheband.com/news.htm

I've been experimenting with a few ideas to jazz up the home page...I'll
post again when I finish and publish the site.

> Hopefully something amongst this helps you out - even if it only helps convince
> you that the "go home" image is a terrible idea... ;)

Yes, yes I realise that now.....I'll never hold my head high again.

You've obviously spent a good while checking the site, so thanks!

Mr "back to the drawing board" Dave



From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Sun Aug 13 12:42:28 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sun Aug 13 12:42:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk> <39963BD4.68D81497@gwi.net>
Message-ID: <3996DD0B.7C261B7E@libertysurf.co.uk>

> Hi Mr. Dave:
Hi!!

> A few things.  I really like it, first of all.

Thanks!

> I don't think I'm getting the same effect in the mouse-over that Elkay
> is getting, it seems okay to me, but I looked with NN (well, let me pull
> out IE).   Ah, yes I see, it is "painful".  Well, back to the drawing
> board w/ that one --- especially since most folks are going to be
> looking at it with IE.  I did, however, get [even when still on the home
> page] the "go home" mouse-over, and I don't think you want that.

Tis gone, and as soon as I sort out whatever it is with my computer that
prevents me from installing IE, I'll sort that out too.

> I agree it bottoms out too fast, just a few more lines would feel more
> comfortable.

I'll put them in.

> You say the band is from the Reading area.  Do you mean Reading,
> Pennsylvania... you might want to add that, and even consider adding
> United States?

Uh..no...Reading, Berkshire, England....I'd better put that in.

> i do think the font will be too small for a mac, but hopefully a real
> mac person will look and let you know for sure.

I'll make it different for mac visitors then.

> i like your writing style, and i think it reads well, and that's one of
> the hardest things to get together.
 Thanks - I just had a few things I needed to let people know and thats
how I did it.

Thanks for your time!
Mr Dave



From erika at seastorm.com  Sun Aug 13 13:33:29 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Sun Aug 13 13:33:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000813165225.00b703f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
References: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJACEGACJAA.markg@tiac.net>
 <4.2.0.58.20000813114420.00b7a7f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
 <4.2.0.58.20000813165225.00b703f0@mail.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <v04220801b5bc935c8f05@[209.213.150.241]>

>aside:  we don't use the word jello in this part of the world.  what 
>you call jello, we call jelly.  what you call jelly, we sort of call 
>jam (sometimes jelly).  just to add to the confusion ;)

hmm.  and technically, 'jello' is a brand-name, not a generic term. 
maybe a better term would have been 'gel.'  Or gelatin... or aspic... 
how about gummi?

I'm with you <ol>...  filling the browser window with flow is 
basically a matter of killing the margins... which in order to make 
work in current browsers, requires the use of deprecated "body" 
attributes.

'ice' layout is frozen... usually at the left side of the browser 
window, has to be 'optimized' for a certain resolution/browser window 
width.

'gel' layout is the same (fixed table width), but centered, so it 
boings into center when you resize.

'liquid' layout flows, regardless of the margins.  look at the text. 
on both 'ice' and 'gel' layout, text wrap doesn't change when you 
resize your browser window, because the table-width is fixed.  with 
liquid layout, lines of text expand or compact depending on window 
size.  hence the challenge, and also the convenience, since flexible 
font sizes flow better in a flexible layout.

let it flow!

Erika


erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Aug 13 13:50:02 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy limeback)
Date: Sun Aug 13 13:50:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
Message-ID: <01c00556$f0938560$7356059a@default>

>> While you're doing that, throw in some title attributes
>> on your links (text and image).
>
>could someone explain what this does? Sorry....

hi dave

short version: tool tip

long version:

   Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents 
   in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently 
   display the title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears 
   when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user 
   agents may speak the title information in a similar context. 
   For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents 
   (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the 
   linked resource:
   
   ...some text...
   Here's a photo of 
   <A href="http://someplace.com/neatstuff.gif"
       title="Me scuba diving">me scuba diving last summer</A>
   ...some more text...

            http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#idx-title-2



rudy.limeback
r937.com
evolt.org




From gstrange at e-tsi.com  Sun Aug 13 14:10:34 2000
From: gstrange at e-tsi.com (Greg Strange)
Date: Sun Aug 13 14:10:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
In-Reply-To: <01c00556$f0938560$7356059a@default>
Message-ID: <B5BC5C5F.4D83%gstrange@e-tsi.com>

on 8/13/00 1:47 PM, rudy limeback at r937 at interlog.com wrote:

> Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents
> in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently
> display the title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears
> when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user
> agents may speak the title information in a similar context.
> For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents
> (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the
> linked resource:
> 
> ...some text...
> Here's a photo of
> <A href="http://someplace.com/neatstuff.gif"
> title="Me scuba diving">me scuba diving last summer</A>
> ...some more text...
> 

So these are in addition to ALT tags?  It seems redundant to me.

./greg




From john.scoot at virgin.net  Sun Aug 13 14:10:58 2000
From: john.scoot at virgin.net (John Scoot)
Date: Sun Aug 13 14:10:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] my own server, or not?
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk> <4.3.2.20000813161243.01eca100@smtp.vardus.net>
Message-ID: <001601c0055a$a8d68340$0926fc3e@optiplex>

We've been considering the same point - decided against it at the moment
because of the technical work involved and the upfront costs. Anyone think
there could be any mileage in a few of us UK based developers joining forces
and getting something half decent? I can see one or three problems, but
given the right environment, it might work.
John S.





From n.d.b at innocent.com  Sun Aug 13 15:28:23 2000
From: n.d.b at innocent.com (Norman Beresford)
Date: Sun Aug 13 15:28:23 2000
Subject: [thelist] my own server, or not?
References: <3995AD90.C929A57E@libertysurf.co.uk> <4.3.2.20000813161243.01eca100@smtp.vardus.net> <001601c0055a$a8d68340$0926fc3e@optiplex>
Message-ID: <002c01c00563$643b8f60$102c30d5@harrypotter>

Hi John and Peter

We're also in a similar position to you.  At the moment we're using
NTwebhost for our hosting, and to be honest we need something a bit more.
Of course our major problems are similar to John's,  we can't afford too
much more and we're also lacking in server admin skills. If people are
thinking of starting up some sort of collective, which should allow us to
address these issues, then we would be very interested in hearing more.

There was a posting on some UK newsgroups recently about a group looking to
start up a server collective http://www.londo.freeuk.com/crosswired .
Although they were going to allow people to host online game servers on it
which didn't appeal to us.  However they had found some very cheap bandwidth
and rack space. http://www.caladan.co.uk/

Norman

btw - does anyone know if there are any UK specific webdesign/production
mailing lists?

>  Anyone think there could be any mileage in a few of us UK based
developers joining forces
> and getting something half decent?




From donnajj at gwi.net  Sun Aug 13 15:28:42 2000
From: donnajj at gwi.net (Donna Jones)
Date: Sun Aug 13 15:28:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] looking for a site check in NN 3 Win
References: <B5B98AD7.1B025%zacm@etr.org>
Message-ID: <3997048E.4FEBF987@gwi.net>

Hi Zachary:  In looking at it with NN 3.04 I couldn't find any problem
with the "Find" button.  Sometimes I find stuff w/ Opera that doesn't
show up elsewhere, but don't have it installed right now.

Thought I'd check it with javascript turned off, and turned out it was
already turned off (in NN3.04) .... so turned it back on, and couldn't
see any difference in how it all operated one way or the other....

hth
Donna

Zachary Mutrux wrote:
> 
> Hi All:
> 
> http://www.nationalservice.org/resources/epicenter/
> 
> A coworker of mine tried to visit this site (we just went live with it), and
> it repeatedly crashes her browser, NN 3.something for Windows. I have NN
> 3.04 Standard and Gold on my machine, and haven't been able to replicate her
> problem.
> 
> If anyone has this browser or one like it handy, I'd appreciate it if you
> could spare a few moments to poke around a little. Try clicking on the
> "Find" button--there is a little JavaScript code in there I'm not too sure
> about.
> 
> Thanks for any help you can offer!
> 
> zm
> 
> --
> Zachary Mutrux, IT Generalist, National Service Resource Center
> 800-860-2684 x.130  |  http://www.etr.org/nsrc
> 831-461-0205 (TDD)  |  AOL Instant Messenger screen name: NSRC TA
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Jones: 207.772.0266
Home Site:  http://www.westendwebs.com
Have you been to the hunger site ( http://thehungersite.com/ ) today?



From erika at seastorm.com  Sun Aug 13 15:57:09 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Sun Aug 13 15:57:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
In-Reply-To: <B5BC5C5F.4D83%gstrange@e-tsi.com>
References: <B5BC5C5F.4D83%gstrange@e-tsi.com>
Message-ID: <v04220802b5bcb90b6b55@[209.213.150.241]>

>...some text...
>  > Here's a photo of
>  > <A href="http://someplace.com/neatstuff.gif"
>  > title="Me scuba diving">me scuba diving last summer</A>
>  > ...some more text...
>  >
>
>So these are in addition to ALT tags?  It seems redundant to me.
>
>./greg

No.  Maybe the example was confusing because it's an <a href> that 
calls a gif.

The "alt" is a brief description of an image which goes in the <img> 
tag.  "Title" if I remember correctly is "additional information." 
Unlike "alt," "title" can be used on links and I think probably on 
any element (check the spec).

When I make a linked image, I might use "alt" to descibe the link and 
"title" to describe the image.  I don't think there are any hard & 
fast rules about how to use "title," and unlike "alt" it really seems 
to me to be more of an enhancement than a necessity.  (I've had fun 
using them as a running subtext, sort of like asides or hyperlinks 
you don't need to click... but can if you want...)

I don't really see why you need "title" tags on your front page, as 
your links seem self-evident to me.

One site I REALLY WISH would use "title" is 'suck.com.'  When 
articles are linked on 'suck,' they tend to be linked by 'key words' 
within sentences, and one doesn't always know where the link goes 
and/or why.  'title' could solve that issue.

but for a menu with good, precise link names, or links that are 
self-evident, I say there's no need for 'title,' and it could even be 
argued that the popup bit that IE does with 'title' is distracting 
&/or annoying.

Erika



erika at seastorm.com
http://www.seastorm.com



From jourard at criminal-lawyer.on.ca  Sun Aug 13 16:23:17 2000
From: jourard at criminal-lawyer.on.ca (Ron Jourard)
Date: Sun Aug 13 16:23:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] GUI Web bloopers
Message-ID: <00b701c0056d$333d3f80$5698bdcd@computer>

I just read the chapter on Web Design in GUI Bloopers by Jeff Johnson.
I thought some of the less obvious recommendations might be of
interest (and the subject of debate):

1. Users should be able to tell whether linked pages are internal or
external to the site;
2. Back button should have same effect on all pages (eg, on search
result pages and data pages, back button should return user to screen
immediately prior);
3. Display search criteria in search results preferably near the top
of the page. Ideally, the search criteria should remain visible even
when the user scrolls down the results list; don't display the
criteria in each and every listed found item;
4. Don't require users to choose between search options that are
meaningless to them (e.g., asking users to choose between "Literal
Text" and "Boolean" search syntax);
5. Use consistent link colours and don't mess with default link
colours;
6. Don't embed links in prose text: (I quote:) "Corporate Web sites
should be less chatty and verbose than personal Web sites. They should
also be designed for maximum clarity and usability. Therefore, the
"Click here for details" style is inappropriate for corporate Web
sites. For example, instead of "Click here for details," present the
link as "Details." Furthermore, don't bury links in prose paragraphs,
except perhaps in Help text documents. Place them adjacent to - but
visually separate from - the data to which they correspond."
7. Users need to be able to tell whether they have visited the
destination for a link by ensuring users can distinguish visited links
from unvisited ones (via link colours and text content);
8. Distinguish within-page and between-page links through careful
formatting. (I quote:) "It is possible, through careful positioning
and labeling, to make it clear to users that the destination of a
particular link is inside or outside of the current page." (eg
http://w3.arl.mil/home/netiquette/rfc18551.html)
9. On-screen buttons should provide nearly instant visual feedback
that they have been pressed. Accordingly avoid image buttons; instead
use regular textual links, HTML form-submit buttons or Web GUI toolkit
buttons.
10. If users must scroll down to access content, plant clues showing
there is content below the bottom edge of the browser window. Make
sure that important fixed content (eg, functions or info) is above the
fold.

Ron Jourard
Toronto, Canada
Tel. (416) 398-6685
Toll free (Canada and U.S.) 1-888-257-0002
www.defencelaw.com




From madstone at madstone.net  Sun Aug 13 16:34:39 2000
From: madstone at madstone.net (Jorah Lavin)
Date: Sun Aug 13 16:34:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
In-Reply-To: <3996DBD4.6D1E6526@libertysurf.co.uk>
References: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000813172634.00aa3450@mail.madstone.net>

Interesting.

After visiting Squalidnet on the port5.com domain, I've now gotten a 
"request for confirmation" that I signed up for some magazine at 
port5.com/.  Mr. Dave, what the heck is up with that?

-Jorah




From squalid at libertysurf.co.uk  Sun Aug 13 16:42:48 2000
From: squalid at libertysurf.co.uk (Dave Stevens)
Date: Sun Aug 13 16:42:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <01c00556$f0938560$7356059a@default>
Message-ID: <3997154E.81A35B5C@libertysurf.co.uk>

> hi dave

Hello

> short version: tool tip

Yes, i read the rest, just thought the rest of you wouldn't want it
twice.

Now, thanks alot for explaining, I'll be sure to start using the "title"
attribute - It is something that I now realise I should have used
before....thanks!

Mr Dave



From kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com  Sun Aug 13 16:51:32 2000
From: kev.skindrill at bigfoot.com (kev.skindrill)
Date: Sun Aug 13 16:51:32 2000
Subject: [thelist] What font is this?
References: <B5B9A7D7.142FB%gsd@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000701c00570$dceefde0$2332893e@v0d8h2>

Dear All
            Just a quickie. If you have a moment could you have a look at
http://www.ratking.co.uk/logo.htm and tell me what the font is & where I
might find it. The guy who did the original setting was using an Amiga if
that is of any help.
TIA
K




From madstone at madstone.net  Sun Aug 13 17:59:06 2000
From: madstone at madstone.net (Jorah Lavin)
Date: Sun Aug 13 17:59:06 2000
Subject: [thelist] What font is this?
In-Reply-To: <000701c00570$dceefde0$2332893e@v0d8h2>
References: <B5B9A7D7.142FB%gsd@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000813185201.00aa5850@mail.madstone.net>

At 05:49 PM 8/13/00, kev.skindrill wrote:
>If you have a moment could you have a look at
>http://www.ratking.co.uk/logo.htm and tell me what the font is & where I
>might find it.

Perhaps Bodega Sans?  My wife, the font maven, says it looks a lot like it.

-Jorah




From madstone at madstone.net  Sun Aug 13 18:01:37 2000
From: madstone at madstone.net (Jorah Lavin)
Date: Sun Aug 13 18:01:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Enigma Browser
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000813185357.00aa5ea0@mail.madstone.net>

<tip>
If you are on a PC and have a few moments to spare, you might want to play 
around with the tiny, fast Enigma browser.

Overly simplistic, but fun... 
http://www.suttondesigns.com/EnigmaBrowser/index.html

</tip>




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 19:00:09 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 19:00:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] using ASP and databases for images
References: <01c00529$a0a156e0$c852059a@default>
Message-ID: <002201c00583$56c3c8a0$0200000a@pavilion>

O.K. ... now... do any of these have walk thru style hands on tutorials for
additional instructions??
Is this subject similar to the C and C++ programming languages where you
really don't get to use any of it for serveral years??
You probably don't remember but at your local Jr College C and C++ are both
broken into three courses ++.
So about a year each to get thru them.

Where as the client and server side languages are both just one quarter
each.

Basically I need to know what I am facing so that I can mentally prepare for
the challenge!
When I finally dug into CSS1 I ate slept and dreamed it for about a month.
Covering four books and several hundred web sites and countless newsgroup
articles and posts.

insight is welcome
thanx
krr







From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 19:10:05 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 19:10:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Form quirks with colored backgrounds in Explorer
References: <LPBBLLOGKNBIKOOOOAJAIENGDBAA.tonyc@boldfish.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002d01c00584$b9d8f7c0$0200000a@pavilion>

You can use style sheets to modify the list button and the box.
Alot of great resources out here at:
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs.html
It has been awhile since I have read that particular article and even longer
since I actually modified a list button.
But I have modified them in color, height, width, etc....
NOTE: If I remember correctly NN will have problems with it so you need to
wrap your property in a <div> and then modify the <div> tag. It should work
in NN 4.5 and IE 4 on up. NN 4.07 might have trouble I can't say for sure.

Because you list boxs are picking up the colored background it gives the
visual impression that the widths are different.
Have you considered using a <div> tag to hold each list box and then set a
backgound image for each box??
Or even using the <div id=xxx>and then setting the #xxx {position: absolute;
left: ?; top: ?;}

no exerpt as I have only been at this a short time, but these ideas and a
lot more are at the link I posted above.
The newgroup is exceptional as it has several CSS heavy weights in it.

krr




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 19:14:33 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 19:14:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Critique please (http://squalidnet.port5.com)
References: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <003601c00585$59e764e0$0200000a@pavilion>

> While I'm awake, I'll check it in Netscape4 without images, JS, CSS, or
Java.
> This is how I surf most sites (reading news, etc) to save on bandwidth.
You're
> missing a few ALT tags - they're easy to throw in, so don't be cheap.
Apart from
> that, the content is all there and readable. Good to see that you're
relying on
> CSS to do the showy stuff, and not using javascript for anything
essential.

I have never heard anyone mention javaScript in quite such a "negative"
tone??
Why in your experience does the language deserve such a negative response??

NOTE: This question in no way asks you to "JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION" but rather
why in your experience a web designer, programmer should be weary??

your insight is appreciated
thanx
krr




From krr at ix.netcom.com  Sun Aug 13 19:21:41 2000
From: krr at ix.netcom.com (kevin raleigh)
Date: Sun Aug 13 19:21:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] Liquidity
References: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBMEELDHAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <003d01c00586$58a2e180$0200000a@pavilion>

When you ask for criticism you had better be ready :-)

Actually the site is designed with the background image in mind.
Because the image max's out at 1024 I didn't worry about anything larger
than that.
I don't expect more than an audience of .001% to surf the site at anything
larger than 1024 x768.

If I am in error don't hesitate to point this out :)
At resolution below the 1024 x 768 how do you think the site fares??
This is the first site I have ever built so kindness is not an issue!

thanx
krr




From markg at tiac.net  Sun Aug 13 19:24:02 2000
From: markg at tiac.net (Mark Gregor)
Date: Sun Aug 13 19:24:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] Export comments from Excel?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000813185201.00aa5850@mail.madstone.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIHILELANLCOCBNJAEEGMCJAA.markg@tiac.net>

Hi,

Is there anyway to export data from an Excel worksheet and have all comments
from that sheet export with the data?  We have a web-based system that reads
data from an exported, tab-delimited Excel sheet and allows visitors to
create dynamic reports based on a query.  We're trying to add a comment
within Excel that describes a piece of data, and when we export and upload
this data to the web, we'd like that comment to be included in the export.

There are some other ways we can do this, but it would be easiest for the
client if they could just add a quick comment to the Excel sheet itself.

Thanks!

-Mark




From webshot at neoncowboy.com  Sun Aug 13 21:00:29 2000
From: webshot at neoncowboy.com (John Corry)
Date: Sun Aug 13 21:00:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] PHP/Xitami setup
In-Reply-To: <000701c00570$dceefde0$2332893e@v0d8h2>
Message-ID: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAIEFOCKAA.webshot@neoncowboy.com>

I'm stumped...can anyone help with this?

I have exhaustively followed all of the directions for installing Xitami and
PHP on W2k. I'm using PHP ver. 4.0.1pl2 and Xitami version 2.4d7.

The weird thing is...I have it working. I even have MySQL running and have
PHP myAdmin happily connecting to the database and displaying results.
Here's the problem...when I put the php.ini in my c:\winnt folder (where all
of the documentation says it should go), the whole thing barfs...
<?
phpinfo();
?>
returns nothing, and it doesn't work. I was getting an error from PHP, then
it just didn't do anything (after I also got rid of php3.ini [left over from
a previous install] and php.ini-dist [the master .ini file].

So, phpinfo(); displays results now, among them is the smug report that the
path to the configuration file is php.ini, which I know is a lie because
there is no php.ini...so what is going on? Where is the config file? I've
searched my C drive for php.ini only to find the same files that I've been
working with (none of which actually configure anything in PHP)..

thanks,
John Corry




From persist1_pdx at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 13 21:12:31 2000
From: persist1_pdx at yahoo.com (Ben Henick)
Date: Sun Aug 13 21:12:31 2000
Subject: Really OT [thelist] OT (verbage)
Message-ID: <20000814021016.14140.qmail@web3905.mail.yahoo.com>

> > and today's winner:
> >"to craft verbiage."  As in TO WRITE, for the love of GOD.
> My fave: "Let's russian doll this text". I *think* it meant
> to reduce it in size, but can't be sure.

Ouch.  Someone must've had a real attack of creativity that day.

FWIW that's called a 'matryoshka' literally:  'mothers in a small
package' (which is about as close as I can describe it without TOTALLY
mangling the hell out of it).

Thing is, you'd think that someone so happy about two-dollar metaphors
would know what the damned thing was actually called, no?

Yeah, right.  Gotta love those clever-to-the-point-of-vomiting folks. 
Hope I haven't automatically put myself in with them (since, after all,
this post is straight out of "Jeopardy").

<chuckle>  Are lives are so full of people who exist, it seems, merely
to entertain the rest of us.  Especially when we show up at the
workplace.



=====
Ben Henick              |  "In the long run, men hit only
Web Author At-Large     |  what they aim at.  Therefore,
www.io.com/persist1/    |  though they should fail
persist1 at io.com         |  immediately, they had better aim
persist1_pdx at yahoo.com  |  high."  --Henry David Thoreau

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From KarenB at frontiersoftware.com.au  Sun Aug 13 22:03:46 2000
From: KarenB at frontiersoftware.com.au (Karen Bowen)
Date: Sun Aug 13 22:03:46 2000
Subject: [thelist] Creating Divs on the fly
Message-ID: <91543B2058D0D211A6B30090271C8E6B94C933@neptune.internal.frontier>

Thanks to everyone for all the responses - they were extremely useful, and I
managed to adapt the Dan Steinman tutorial to achieve what I was trying to
do.  There was an error in his tute, tho, in case anyone is interested:
using the obj.insertAdjacentHTML() method actually requires 2 parameters:
sWhere - a string indicating where in the object the html is to be inserted,
with value either 'beforeBegin', 'afterBegin', 'beforeEnd', or 'afterEnd',
and then, of course, the text/html.

In response to your (and others') comments Eric, yep you are spot on, this
is exactly what we are doing.  :-)  We actually use multiple hidden frames -
currently set to be 10 - as we can have multiple queries to the cobol
backend running at any one time, and also as one query may return more than
one response.  The product that I work on is the Web Kiosk version of an
HR/payroll software application, so yes, we are trying to subvert the
document-based nature of the web - I'm finding it very interesting work,
actually!

Thanks again for all the comments and responses, and please excuse me for
not responding individually.  I really appreciate all the help, and think
I've found myself a new list home.  :-)

Regards,
Karen

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Eric Costello [SMTP:eric at schwa.com]
> 
> The only way to do what you want to
> do (assuming I am understanding your correctly) is with a hidden frame
> that
> makes periodic calls back to the server for any new information, and then,
> upon finding any, manipulates the contents of your visible frame through
> javascript. 



From jaylard at encompass.net  Sun Aug 13 23:34:36 2000
From: jaylard at encompass.net (James Aylard)
Date: Sun Aug 13 23:34:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] Form quirks with colored backgrounds in Explorer
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLOGKNBIKOOOOAJAIENGDBAA.tonyc@boldfish.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000f01c005a8$cbb56040$01cba8c0@xpsr400>

Tony,

	The offset between the submit button and the text input is something of an
optical illusion, due to how well the 3D shading lines show up against the
various colored backgrounds. To verify this, click and hold your left mouse
button and drag the cursor across the page. IE will shade the controls as
you drag past them, allowing you to see their actual placement against one
another. There is typically a slight offset visible, but its size is
dependent on the font used to render the button text, whether large fonts or
small fonts are selected for the video display, etc. If you want to make the
submit and text input *appear* to be aligned, you could probably set a
slight margin-top on the submit to bump it down a pixel or two, although
YMMV.

hth,
James Aylard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Tony Crockford
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 6:45 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Form quirks with colored backgrounds in Explorer
>
>
> Hi
>
> I've been trying to fix an alignment problem - my search submit button
> doesn't line up with my text input box.
>
> I've wasted so many hours on it and have finally discovered that it is
> background colour dependant.
>
> the lighter the colour the better the alignment looks.
>
> see http://www.boldfish.co.uk/test.htm  for an example
>
> (Note Netscape users won't see this the same way IE users will!)
>
> I think it has a lot to do with the way IE5.0 draws the 3d
> effects that make
> up the box and button bevel, using different colours (or maybe
> the same) on
> different backgrounds.
>
> Anyway, I've got a dark background on an IE5.0 intranet and the
> button won't
> line up with the box.
>
> Anyone got any clever IE5.0 specific ways of making it look better?
>
> TIA
>
> Tony
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
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