From mail at redhotsweeps.com Mon Nov 20 00:45:25 2000 From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty) Date: Mon Nov 20 00:45:25 2000 Subject: [thelist] how'd they do that? In-Reply-To: <3A18B7FC.4D1157E5@pintsize.com> References: <3A18AB3D.3FBCEB25@pintsize.com> <005501c052ad$59516420$ef219ad8@michelef> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001120000931.00af9480@redhotsweeps.com> There is a series of articles that another webmaster wrote about this service. Check it out. Issues 117-122. http://www.sitepoint.com/newsletter/newsletter.php CDitty At 11:34 PM 11/19/00 , you wrote: >Or should I say warning? Yahoo is now requiring that ALL commercial >sites >must use their Business Express program to submit sites to "Business and >Economy/Business to Business" or "Business and Economy/Shopping and Services." >The Business Express program does not guarantee that your site will be listed, >only that it will be reviewed in a expedited fashion, supposedly within seven >business days. Yahoo charges a nonrefundable fee of US$199.00 per site >submitted, and US$600.00 for sites with adult content or services. From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com Mon Nov 20 02:27:01 2000 From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton) Date: Mon Nov 20 02:27:01 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Listees I have a JavaScript which detects the users browser and incorporates different style sheets depending on the browser. The four different style sheets I have at the moment are for: Windows: Internet Explorer Windows: Netscape Mac: Internet Explorer Mac: Netscape This has been fine so far, however with the new browsers, IE 5 and Netscape 6, I feel that I now need at least 2 other options for the Mac: Mac: Internet Explorer 5 and above Mac: Netscape 6 and above and possibly: Windows: Netscapte 6 and above. By adding these extra options will provide me with more control, but I am not sure how to add this extra detection into the JavaScript I use at the moment. Are there any JavaScript Guru's who could help me add a small bit of code for this extra detection. The script I use at the moment is: TIA for any help Zoe From data at data1701d.com Mon Nov 20 03:35:30 2000 From: data at data1701d.com (Bill Mason) Date: Mon Nov 20 03:35:30 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120012937.009e8d10@mail> At 12:27 AM 11/20/2000, you wrote: >This has been fine so far, however with the new browsers, IE 5 and Netscape >6, I feel that I now need at least 2 other options for the Mac: > Mac: Internet Explorer 5 and above > Mac: Netscape 6 and above > >and possibly: > Windows: Netscapte 6 and above. > >By adding these extra options will provide me with more control, but I am >not sure how to add this extra detection into the JavaScript I use at the >moment. Are there any JavaScript Guru's who could help me add a small bit >of code for this extra detection. You might check this script out. I find it very simple and powerful to use: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?detect.html Bill Mason data at data1701d.com Dateline: Starfleet http://www.data1701d.com http://profile.guru.com/billmason http://www.freeagent.com/billmason http://bmason.freelancers.net From ross at designcc.com Mon Nov 20 03:47:20 2000 From: ross at designcc.com (J. Ross Dishner) Date: Mon Nov 20 03:47:20 2000 Subject: [thelist] basedir location In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120012937.009e8d10@mail> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120012937.009e8d10@mail> Message-ID: I've got a script that requires my to put the absolute path to my basedir for the cgi-bin in the cgi script inside the bin. Having never used a script that required this I'm at a loss for answers. It's unlikely I'll be speaking to my servers administrator at this hour and I don't have telnet since it is a security risk according to my host. I do, however, have a very fine ftp client but haven't been able to guess or find said path. Any answers as to how to sleuth it out? From sck at biljettpoolen.se Mon Nov 20 03:57:08 2000 From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook) Date: Mon Nov 20 03:57:08 2000 Subject: [thelist] basedir location Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E638@SBS> Hi J! Using cgi.PM you can take a look at the HTTP session variable path_info Instructions here... http://stein.cshl.org/WWW/software/CGI/cgi_docs.html#environment If you aren't using cgi.PM there are other ways of getting at the HTTP session variables, but I still don't have a perl book with me so I'm a little lost for what the exact methods are! Hope this helps anyways! .steve ---------------------------------- WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net Cookstour - http://cookstour.org ---------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: J. Ross Dishner [mailto:ross at designcc.com] > Sent: den 20 november 2000 10:47 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] basedir location > > > I've got a script that requires my to put the absolute path to my > basedir for the cgi-bin in the cgi script inside the bin. Having > never used a script that required this I'm at a loss for answers. > It's unlikely I'll be speaking to my servers administrator at this > hour and I don't have telnet since it is a security risk according to > my host. I do, however, have a very fine ftp client but haven't been > able to guess or find said path. Any answers as to how to sleuth it > out? > From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Mon Nov 20 04:49:43 2000 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Mon Nov 20 04:49:43 2000 Subject: [thelist] tracking the printing of a webpage Message-ID: <8025699D.003AEEE0.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com> Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- Unless there's a JavaScript/ActiveX thing going on which registers when you print, and sets a cookie. Sounds like a Windows/IE solution to me. Cheers Martin Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org To: thelist at lists.evolt.org cc: Subject: Re: [thelist] tracking the printing of a webpage On 11/19/00 at 4:13 PM, Elizabeth Hincks wrote: > How in the heck can you track how many copies of the web > page are printed out? Am I crazy or is this impossible? It's impossible. Printing is client side only, and speaks to no servers (unless it's an internal network). In either case, they can only guess that you are printing with each access. --------------------- End of message text -------------------- The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6NN where lists of the partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales to carry on investment business. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Mon Nov 20 04:50:45 2000 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Mon Nov 20 04:50:45 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection Message-ID: <8025699D.003AF2DF.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com> Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- Hi Zoe This kind of thing is better done on the server side - you'll have a greater range of circumstances where it will work (eg if JS is turned off). Cheers Martin Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org To: thelist cc: Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection I have a JavaScript which detects the users browser and incorporates different style sheets depending on the browser. --------------------- End of message text -------------------- The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6NN where lists of the partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales to carry on investment business. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk Mon Nov 20 05:47:10 2000 From: Jagjeet.Hayer at softwareag.co.uk (Hayer, Jagjeet) Date: Mon Nov 20 05:47:10 2000 Subject: [thelist] Netscape and createElement Message-ID: Hi all, I am having problems with creating Options to dynamically populate a Select box. My code is : objEntry0 = document.createElement("OPTION"); from which I do either a .add or .remove on the select, for example: document.form.select1.add(objEntry0); or document.form.select1.remove(objEntry0); This works fine in IE but I am receiving a "document.createElement is not a function" error message in Netscape. Does anyone know of a workaround to this? Cheers, Jag. The content of this e-mail is confidential, may contain privileged material and is intended solely for the recipient(s) named above. If you receive this in error, please notify Software AG immediately and delete this e-mail. Software AG (UK) Limited Registered in England & Wales 1310740 Registered Office: Hudson House, Hudson Way, Pride Park, Derby DE24 8HS From koleszar at netcomuk.co.uk Mon Nov 20 06:30:46 2000 From: koleszar at netcomuk.co.uk (Nick Koleszar) Date: Mon Nov 20 06:30:46 2000 Subject: [thelist] whose payload is this? Message-ID: <001801c052ed$ca24a5a0$7d26fea9@c1> Anyone come across this? It looks to me like a client/server payload. My friend asked me for assistance on this. He says:"There's this file I found that resides in my windows temp directory called HIJ012.EXE -- it attribs itself as "hidden." Everytime I unhide it and delete it, it shows up again later. Again, hidden in my windows temp directory. I can't figure out what it does. But it seems suspcious to me. It does try to access the internet, but ZoneAlarm is set up to refuse access to that program. Norton AV 2001 does not find any virus code in it, not even with "bloodhound" set to high. Do you have any utilities that can explore this file and maybe indicate what it is for and what it does? Maybe it is associated with another application on my computer, but for now I'm not sure if I should worry about it or not." I took a look at the code in a text editor and from the comments, it appears to be a client which tries to contact a web server to transfer mpeg files. There are plenty of comments about network stuff, passwords, file types (mpeg) etc. I thought perhaps it is part of Napster but my machine doesn't seem to have this file so any ideas? nk From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com Mon Nov 20 07:42:27 2000 From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari) Date: Mon Nov 20 07:42:27 2000 Subject: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit Message-ID: Silly question, but why would you want to do that? Sounds obtrusive. -----Original Message----- From: Barret A Monchka [mailto:bmonchka at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 6:49 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit Hi, Does anybody have a good Javascript that will popup a window when a user exists your website, in both Internet Explorer and Netscape? Barret _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Mon Nov 20 07:59:16 2000 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Mon Nov 20 07:59:16 2000 Subject: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit Message-ID: <8025699D.004C8244.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com> Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- This goes right to the heart of a conflict between those who have a message to communicate (aka "the business") and the users. Popups are really useful to notify users of something without losing the original context - not just ads/service announcements, but interactive stuff like logins. Think of the classic .htaccess password box - it's a popup. However, unless it's clear that it offers benefit to them, users really get angry at popups, particularly if you take away their control by removing any of the following: * scrollbars (*especially* if the page is too long to scroll) * Resizability * closability (I will personally disembowel anyone who suggests that onClose(openWin()) is A Good Thing) * Location Field (less important if it's an interactive widget) If you absolutely *must* use a popup, it's a better idea to just use target="_foo" - that way you maintain all of the above. Cheers Martin Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" cc: Subject: RE: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit Silly question, but why would you want to do that? Sounds obtrusive. -----Original Message----- From: Barret A Monchka [mailto:bmonchka at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 6:49 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit Hi, Does anybody have a good Javascript that will popup a window when a user exists your website, in both Internet Explorer and Netscape? Barret --------------------- End of message text -------------------- The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6NN where lists of the partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales to carry on investment business. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 09:12:45 2000 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:12:45 2000 Subject: [thelist] Popup Window on Exit In-Reply-To: <8025699D.004C8244.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: <200011201512.eAKFChh02728@farmer.oracular.com> > From: [...] > However, unless it's clear that it offers benefit to them, users really > get angry at popups, particularly if you take away their control by > removing any of the following: > * scrollbars (*especially* if the page is too long to scroll) > * Resizability > * closability (I will personally disembowel anyone who suggests that > onClose(openWin()) is A Good Thing) > * Location Field (less important if it's an interactive widget) to address the original question, if you want a popup to appear on a window close, just visit any porn site and steal their code... i think they suck, tho... to address martin's point, anybody see the CNN pop-up that asks me what edition i want? after closing it every day for a week, i finally answered, and guess what happened? it came back the next day... *that* pissed me off... From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com Mon Nov 20 09:19:42 2000 From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:19:42 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript help please? Message-ID: I am having a strange problem with a form in both Netscape and IE. I originally developed it for IE, without checking Netscape, so now I am trying to fix my goof. The form has Javascript validation, so if so many fields are empty or not correct, a prompt appears when the "subscribe" button is pressed. It works fine in IE...but not in Netscape. In Netscape, it fails to show the prompt box and overlooks the JS validation code. When I check the code in the Netscape Javascript validator, it tells me the error is on line 126: theForm is not defined. I was told by an acquaintance that the solution to the problem is to replace any "theFrom" with "document.theForm" in the Javascript (excepting the form tag of course). I tried that, and then the validation failed in Netscape again, as well as IE. Here is the URL of the existing page: http://www.instron.com/cgi-bin/newslettersignup.cfm Any ideas?? Thanks alot, Ari From talleman at autobex.com Mon Nov 20 09:27:03 2000 From: talleman at autobex.com (Tab Alleman) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:27:03 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript help please? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You might actually need to replace "document.theForm" with "document.forms[theForm]" I think maybe. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Herzog, Ari Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 10:20 AM To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org' Subject: [thelist] Javascript help please? I am having a strange problem with a form in both Netscape and IE. I originally developed it for IE, without checking Netscape, so now I am trying to fix my goof. The form has Javascript validation, so if so many fields are empty or not correct, a prompt appears when the "subscribe" button is pressed. It works fine in IE...but not in Netscape. In Netscape, it fails to show the prompt box and overlooks the JS validation code. When I check the code in the Netscape Javascript validator, it tells me the error is on line 126: theForm is not defined. I was told by an acquaintance that the solution to the problem is to replace any "theFrom" with "document.theForm" in the Javascript (excepting the form tag of course). I tried that, and then the validation failed in Netscape again, as well as IE. Here is the URL of the existing page: http://www.instron.com/cgi-bin/newslettersignup.cfm Any ideas?? Thanks alot, Ari --------------------------------------- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From bobd at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 20 09:42:17 2000 From: bobd at members.evolt.org (Bob Davis) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:42:17 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 11/20/00 3:27 AM, Zoe Oughton at zoe.oughton at btconnect.com wrote: > I have a JavaScript which detects the users browser and incorporates > different style sheets depending on the browser. > The four different style sheets I have at the moment are for: > Windows: Internet Explorer > Windows: Netscape > Mac: Internet Explorer > Mac: Netscape > > This has been fine so far, however with the new browsers, IE 5 and Netscape > 6, I feel that I now need at least 2 other options for the Mac: > Mac: Internet Explorer 5 and above > Mac: Netscape 6 and above I've been using a script from WebReference.com that is a derivative from the Netscape Ultimate Browser Sniffer. Here's what Netscape 6 (Mac) looks like to JavaScript: Navigator Object Data navigator.appCodeName: Mozilla navigator.appName: Netscape navigator.appVersion: 5.0 (Macintosh; en-US) navigator.userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 navigator.platform: MacPPC navigator.javaEnabled(): true It announces itself as Netscape 5. Interesting, no? http://www.webreference.com/tools/browser/javascript.html I modified mine a little to suit my particular needs, but it works very well. bob -- bob davis bobd at members.evolt.org From ashcraft at 13monkeys.com Mon Nov 20 09:47:10 2000 From: ashcraft at 13monkeys.com (Jeremy Ashcraft) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:47:10 2000 Subject: [thelist] basedir location References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120012937.009e8d10@mail> Message-ID: <003f01c05309$941b92e0$38d659d8@KENNY> You could use the PWD environment variable, which stores the full path of the current working directory, so $path = $ENV{PWD} ."/" . $filename; would give you the full path of the file. HTH jeremy ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Ross Dishner" To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 3:47 AM Subject: [thelist] basedir location > I've got a script that requires my to put the absolute path to my > basedir for the cgi-bin in the cgi script inside the bin. Having > never used a script that required this I'm at a loss for answers. > It's unlikely I'll be speaking to my servers administrator at this > hour and I don't have telnet since it is a security risk according to > my host. I do, however, have a very fine ftp client but haven't been > able to guess or find said path. Any answers as to how to sleuth it > out? > > --------------------------------------- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From one_webdude at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 09:51:15 2000 From: one_webdude at yahoo.com (Terry Fowler) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:51:15 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection Message-ID: <20001120155112.28945.qmail@web110.yahoomail.com> --- Zoe Oughton wrote: > Hi Listees > > I have a JavaScript which detects the users browser > and incorporates > different style sheets depending on the browser. > The four different style sheets I have at the moment > are for: > Windows: Internet Explorer > Windows: Netscape > Mac: Internet Explorer > Mac: Netscape > > This has been fine so far, however with the new > browsers, IE 5 and Netscape > 6, I feel that I now need at least 2 other options > for the Mac: > Mac: Internet Explorer 5 and above > Mac: Netscape 6 and above > > and possibly: > Windows: Netscapte 6 and above. > > By adding these extra options will provide me with > more control, but I am > not sure how to add this extra detection into the > JavaScript I use at the > moment. Are there any JavaScript Guru's who could > help me add a small bit > of code for this extra detection. > There is an article on this topic at: http://developer.netscape.com/viewsource/krock_v5.html It's called "Updating Your JavaScript and CGI Scripts for Version 5 Browsers." HTH, Terry Fowler __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From matthewmozer at hotmail.com Mon Nov 20 10:08:29 2000 From: matthewmozer at hotmail.com (Matt Mozer) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:08:29 2000 Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines Message-ID: Anyone have any tips or ideas to increase my websites rankings within search engines? Please keep in mind I have been in the Web business under 3 months now. Anyways, I have a Texas Golf Resort website. If I search on excite or Yahoo for Texas Resorts, we are ranked in the high 60's to 90's. I understand that search engines rank websites by their traffic generation, but besides your meta tags to attract search engines, anyone have any good ideas on which sites or portals we should buy space on for some recognition? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com Mon Nov 20 10:22:20 2000 From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:22:20 2000 Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines Message-ID: You should download the trial version (or buy it if you have the funds) of WebPosition Gold. -----Original Message----- From: Matt Mozer [mailto:matthewmozer at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 11:09 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines Anyone have any tips or ideas to increase my websites rankings within search engines? Please keep in mind I have been in the Web business under 3 months now. Anyways, I have a Texas Golf Resort website. If I search on excite or Yahoo for Texas Resorts, we are ranked in the high 60's to 90's. I understand that search engines rank websites by their traffic generation, but besides your meta tags to attract search engines, anyone have any good ideas on which sites or portals we should buy space on for some recognition? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From fredh at austin.rr.com Mon Nov 20 10:31:11 2000 From: fredh at austin.rr.com (Fred Hubnik) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:31:11 2000 Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 11/20/2000 10:08 AM, Matt Mozer transmitted: > > Anyone have any tips or ideas to increase my websites rankings within search > engines? give http://www.selfpromotion.com a try. it's an excellent service and an even better resource. i've only used them twice and have been amazed at the usefulness. and it's a pay as you feel necessary service. -- f g h fredh at austin.rr.com -- From jmerriam at achilles.net Mon Nov 20 11:11:11 2000 From: jmerriam at achilles.net (jmerriam) Date: Mon Nov 20 11:11:11 2000 Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120113000.00b44688@pop1.achilles.net> At 10:08 AM 11/20/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone have any tips or ideas to increase my websites rankings within >search engines? Here's a good resource you might try. http://searchenginewatch.com/ Jeff From mark at velir.com Mon Nov 20 11:11:29 2000 From: mark at velir.com (Mark Gregor) Date: Mon Nov 20 11:11:29 2000 Subject: [thelist] Director - Execute outside .exe file? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I need to create a Director projector that will be distributed on CD-ROM. The projector simply needs to contain 3 links that will execute .exe files distributed with the CD. I've been poking around in Director 8, but haven't gotten very far. Anyone have any pointers on how to link to and execute .exe files? Thanks! Mark From ross at designcc.com Mon Nov 20 11:43:54 2000 From: ross at designcc.com (J. Ross Dishner) Date: Mon Nov 20 11:43:54 2000 Subject: [thelist] Generating a high ranking on search engines In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120113000.00b44688@pop1.achilles.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120113000.00b44688@pop1.achilles.net> Message-ID: Look Around At http://www.spider-food.net/ and as was suggested before DO USE http://www.selfpromotion.com/ . I don't work for them, I promise, but if you become a contributor of $10 or more you can save 10 profiles for up to a year. Really good service. Ross From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com Mon Nov 20 11:55:44 2000 From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton) Date: Mon Nov 20 11:55:44 2000 Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection In-Reply-To: <8025699D.003AF2DF.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: I have used cgi, but I have always used scripts obtained through the internet. I am no programmer and I am not able to write the scripts myself!! I take it, that when you say server side you mean cgi :o) Does anyone know where I might find a good browser detection cgi script that will let me use different style sheets for different platforms and different versions of the main browsers. TIA Zoe > > > Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers > > -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- > > Hi Zoe > > This kind of thing is better done on the server side - you'll have a greater > range of circumstances where it will work (eg if JS is turned off). > > Cheers > Martin > > > > Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org > To: thelist > cc: > > > Subject: [thelist] Javascript - Browser detection > > > > I have a JavaScript which detects the users browser and incorporates > different style sheets depending on the browser. > > > > --------------------- End of message text -------------------- > > The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate > partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6NN where lists of the > partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate > partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all > contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK > firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Institute of Chartered > Accountants in England and Wales to carry on investment business. > PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide > PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which > it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any > review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action > in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the > intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > > > --------------------------------------- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From dbailey2 at healthaxis.com Mon Nov 20 11:57:38 2000 From: dbailey2 at healthaxis.com (Bailey, Dan) Date: Mon Nov 20 11:57:38 2000 Subject: [thelist] Further ASP/Access Questions Message-ID: <7171306544DBD31195B900D0B7222A4EE34859@haxcre00.healthaxis.com> Okay, I am building a database in Access with a web interface (of course). I have a

where people can enter a block of text.  I'm using
VBScript.  Here's my questions:

1.  I am concerned about adding the contents of the TEXTAREA to the database
-- particularly people using things like single- and double-quotes, which
will, of course, break the SQL Statement.  Anyone know, off the top of their
head, a way to convert the text entered into the TEXTAREA into a string that
I can insert into my SQL statement?

2.  With the Fontosaurus site I built, I discovered that the database seems
to limit the maximum # of characters that can be entered into a field.  I've
been ignoring this and keeping descriptions short, but is there another data
type I can employ that will allow for longer pieces of data in the field?

Thanks for all your help.

-- Dan

From bzirra at diamondbank.com  Mon Nov 20 12:38:49 2000
From: bzirra at diamondbank.com (Blaise Zirra)
Date: Mon Nov 20 12:38:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] FTP
Message-ID: <E3BE81D95501D41181B90090273D6D591FDEB3@dblng.diamondbank.com>

I recovered some data from tape to a directory in my unix system and tried
to upload certain tables to my oracle database which resides in the unix
machine.
this was successful, but when i tried to FTP these tables from a windows NT
workstation so they can reside on the local machine for onward uploading to
another unix machine, i don't get any success.
But this is successful when the tables are FTPd from a second unix machine

can anyone help

regards

From warren at warrenworld.com  Mon Nov 20 12:46:51 2000
From: warren at warrenworld.com (warren)
Date: Mon Nov 20 12:46:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] password protection <general thank you>
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001118121948.02121700@w3matrix.com>
Message-ID: <B63EDC10.B4A%warren@warrenworld.com>

Thanks to everyone who helped out. .htaccess seems to be the way to go and
the encrypted password (link below) solved the problem of telnetting into
the server to create the encrypted password.

Thanks again,
warren  :)
wordsandpictures.com

> From: Lumir G Janku <lgjanku at w3matrix.com>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:40:01 -0800
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] password protection

> The simplest way:
> 
> <Limit GET POST>
> AuthName "Restricted Area"
> AuthType Basic
> AuthUserFile /path/.htpasswd
> require valid-user
> </Limit>
> 
> <Limit PUT DELETE>
> deny from all
> </Limit>
> 
> --
> 
> You can use a nifty service for getting an encrypted password here:
> http://www.cuci.nl/services/genpassword.html
> 
> Make sure that you do not copy any trailing spaces.
> 
> Then you create a file .htpasswd (or whatever you named it):
> 
> username:enc_password
> username2:enc_password2
> etc.
> 
> ---
> That's it.

From Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov  Mon Nov 20 12:51:55 2000
From: Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov (Howell, Katie)
Date: Mon Nov 20 12:51:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A801205912DCB@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>

I have a coldfusion application with an Oracle 8 backend.  On a certain page
if using netscape I get this error:

Diagnostics:
Oracle Error Code = 921 
ORA-00921: unexpected end of SQL command

The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of
(CFQUERY), occupying document position (15:1) to (15:44).

Runs fine in IE, and everyone has looked at my SQL and can't find the
"unexpected end".  
Here's the SQL

<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#', 
		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>

Have anyone ever run into this?

Thanks,

Katie

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Mon Nov 20 13:12:05 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:12:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D4@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

I may be mistaken, but try this instead:

<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#'
SET   DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>

I believe you need a new SET tag.
Also, do you want UPDATE or CFUPDATE?

------------------------------------
Ari Herzog
Internet Webmaster
Instron Corporation
Tel:  781-575-5638
Fax: 781-575-5768
Email: ari_herzog at instron.com

Check out our website at http://www.instron.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Howell, Katie [mailto:Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 1:52 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *

I have a coldfusion application with an Oracle 8 backend.  On a certain page
if using netscape I get this error:

Diagnostics:
Oracle Error Code = 921 
ORA-00921: unexpected end of SQL command

The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of
(CFQUERY), occupying document position (15:1) to (15:44).

Runs fine in IE, and everyone has looked at my SQL and can't find the
"unexpected end".  
Here's the SQL

<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#', 
		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>

Have anyone ever run into this?

Thanks,

Katie

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 13:18:50 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:18:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D4@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIOECMFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

Are you sure about that? I'm no Oracle expert but I believe their SET
commands work the same as everyone elses, ie, the original SET
FOO='FOO',BLAH='Foo' format was correct.

CFUPDATE is only used if you want CF to handle the SQL for you, and it's
normally only used when you have a 1-1 correlation of form fields and db
fields.

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Herzog, Ari
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:12 PM
> To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
>
>
> I may be mistaken, but try this instead:
>
>
> <cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
> UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
> SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#'
> SET   DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
> WHERE PROJ_ID = #ID#
> </cfquery>
>
> I believe you need a new SET tag.
> Also, do you want UPDATE or CFUPDATE?
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Ari Herzog
> Internet Webmaster
> Instron Corporation
> Tel:  781-575-5638
> Fax: 781-575-5768
> Email: ari_herzog at instron.com
>
> Check out our website at http://www.instron.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howell, Katie [mailto:Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov]
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 1:52 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
>
>
> I have a coldfusion application with an Oracle 8 backend.  On a
> certain page
> if using netscape I get this error:
>
> Diagnostics:
> Oracle Error Code = 921
> ORA-00921: unexpected end of SQL command
>
> The error occurred while processing an element with a general
> identifier of
> (CFQUERY), occupying document position (15:1) to (15:44).
>
> Runs fine in IE, and everyone has looked at my SQL and can't find the
> "unexpected end".
> Here's the SQL
>
> <cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
> UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
> SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#',
> 		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
> WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
> </cfquery>
>
> Have anyone ever run into this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Katie
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 13:19:27 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:19:27 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A801205912DCB@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEICECNFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

Turn on query debugging in your CF Admin, run the query in Netscape and
check what SQL is getting sent to the backend.

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

From Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov  Mon Nov 20 13:20:49 2000
From: Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov (Howell, Katie)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:20:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A801205912E0A@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>

we don't use cfupdate.....we write all queries in SQL

-----Original Message-----
From: Herzog, Ari [mailto:Ari_Herzog at Instron.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:12 PM
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *

I may be mistaken, but try this instead:

<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#'
SET   DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>

I believe you need a new SET tag.
Also, do you want UPDATE or CFUPDATE?

------------------------------------
Ari Herzog
Internet Webmaster
Instron Corporation
Tel:  781-575-5638
Fax: 781-575-5768
Email: ari_herzog at instron.com

Check out our website at http://www.instron.com

I have a coldfusion application with an Oracle 8 backend.  On a certain page
if using netscape I get this error:

Diagnostics:
Oracle Error Code = 921 
ORA-00921: unexpected end of SQL command

The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of
(CFQUERY), occupying document position (15:1) to (15:44).

Runs fine in IE, and everyone has looked at my SQL and can't find the
"unexpected end".  
Here's the SQL

<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#', 
		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>

Have anyone ever run into this?

Thanks,

Katie

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Mon Nov 20 13:22:15 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:22:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D5@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

Right, but if you are using a <cfquery></cfquery> tag,
then you are using CF's SQL, and not Oracle's.

Or no?

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond K. Camden [mailto:rcamden at allaire.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:21 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *

Are you sure about that? I'm no Oracle expert but I believe their SET
commands work the same as everyone elses, ie, the original SET
FOO='FOO',BLAH='Foo' format was correct.

CFUPDATE is only used if you want CF to handle the SQL for you, and it's
normally only used when you have a 1-1 correlation of form fields and db
fields.

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 13:33:42 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:33:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D5@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIKECOFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

All ColdFusion does is pass the stuff (SQL) to your DB. ColdFusion doesn't
have a SQL engine it itself. (Actually, CF 5, which was announced at the Dev
Conf in early November, -will- have CFSQL, which will allow you to write a
query against an existing query.)

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Mon Nov 20 13:44:44 2000
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:44:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Director - Execute outside .exe file?
Message-ID: <v02140b01b63f2f2b4cdb@[10.11.1.143]>

At 9:10 AM 11/20/0, Mark Gregor wrote:
> I've been poking around in Director 8, but haven't gotten very far.
> Anyone have any pointers on how to link to and execute .exe files?

It's definitely possible for a Director standalone application to activate
other applications, although you'll usually find more questions arise as a
result of this. (Finding the other app, installing if necessary, sending it
a document, telling it to close, passing other info back and forth, etc.)

The Lingo Dictionary contains the core info in its "open" entry, and I'd
definitely recommend searching the Macromedia Director Technotes with
keyword "open" for more.

(Sidenotes: We can activate applications from standalones, but not from
browsers due to sandbox security. Although a Macromedia Flash Player
standalones can hack this via the FSCommand, it doesn't apply to as many
situations as with the larger Director Projector.)

John Dowdell, Macromedia Tech Support, San Francisco CA US
Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Offlist email risks capture by the spam filters. I may not see your
email if it's not on the list. Private one-on-one email options are
available via Priority Access: http://www.macromedia.com/support/

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Mon Nov 20 13:46:21 2000
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:46:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] FW: Liquid header problems
Message-ID: <v02140b02b63f30037f86@[10.11.1.143]>

Sidenote: The new layout tables in Dreamweaver 4 promise to make this type
of work much easier. There's info on the Macromedia site now, and I expect
trial versions to be online before the end-of-year holidays.

From djc at five2one.org  Mon Nov 20 13:53:57 2000
From: djc at five2one.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:53:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
References: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A801205912DCB@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <3A19809A.6040301@five2one.org>

Katie -

Shot in the dark, but try making your sql statement(and maybe even CF 
vars) lowercase. This is a really wack problem, so lets try some wack 
solutions :)

Lemme know if that works.. Also, turn on debugging if you can and post 
the SQL that CF is sending to oracle

.djc.

Howell, Katie wrote:

> Diagnostics:
> Oracle Error Code = 921 
> ORA-00921: unexpected end of SQL command 
> 
> The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of
> (CFQUERY), occupying document position (15:1) to (15:44).
> 
> Runs fine in IE, and everyone has looked at my SQL and can't find the
> "unexpected end".  
> Here's the SQL
> 
> <cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
> UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
> SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#', 
> 		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
> WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
> </cfquery>
>

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Mon Nov 20 13:53:58 2000
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:53:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Flash - Center all Layers?
Message-ID: <v02140b03b63f305d94b1@[10.11.1.143]>

At 11:24 AM 11/17/0, Mark Gregor wrote:
> I have a Flash movie with about 30 photographs... 800x600....

eek, that's possible, but it can often be like eating a full can of baked
beans at one sitting...!  :D  :D

(The Macromedia Flash Player is designed for streaming vector interactivity
in web-sized loads. Everything is in RAM, and compressed media needs to
decompress. There are also streaming and resolution issues to consider.
People usually use bitmaps as a seasoning, rather than as the main course.)

The Alignment Panel can help center things.

You can also set up a timeline in an HTML editor to do a screenshow too.

From ndevine at rakehell.com  Mon Nov 20 13:59:11 2000
From: ndevine at rakehell.com (Nils Devine)
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:59:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] popups + vlink
References: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D5@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0532c$50245a40$5cfc5b18@ne.mediaone.net>

assumption: popups are being used properly (which is debatable, but another
topic)

I have a list of names, each of which is a link that opens a popup window.
When you click on a name I want it to change to the vlink color.  The first
of the 3 examples below works as long as I stay on the page, but as soon as
I leave and come back the names are all the original link color.

< a href="javascript:popup(...
< a href="#" onclick="javascript:popup(...
< a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="javascript:popup(...

Any suggestions on the interaction between vlink and popups?

???`????????`???
  Nils T. Devine       Portfolio: www.DivineNTD.com
  AIM: DivineNTD  Pet Project: www.DragonDuel.com
  ICQ: 27646464    Site Developer: www.Rakehell.com
???`????????`???

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Mon Nov 20 14:02:33 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:02:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] popups + vlink
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4D8@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

Offhand, the "easy" way is to create a redirect page with zero seconds of
delay
for each popup link. So...the link is really a redirect which has its own
javascript for the popup (and closes itself as well).

Nahh, that's not as easy. Is it? *grin*

-----Original Message-----
From: Nils Devine [mailto:ndevine at rakehell.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:59 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] popups + vlink

assumption: popups are being used properly (which is debatable, but another
topic)

< a href="javascript:popup(...
< a href="#" onclick="javascript:popup(...
< a href="javascript:void(0);" onclick="javascript:popup(...

Any suggestions on the interaction between vlink and popups?

???`????????`???
  Nils T. Devine       Portfolio: www.DivineNTD.com
  AIM: DivineNTD  Pet Project: www.DragonDuel.com
  ICQ: 27646464    Site Developer: www.Rakehell.com
???`????????`???

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From ed at nolans.net  Mon Nov 20 14:25:09 2000
From: ed at nolans.net (Ed Nolan)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:25:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] CFSCHEDULE
Message-ID: <005501c0532f$96ec22c0$cad44240@pluto>

Just curious if anyone has explored the possibilities of the <cfschedule>
tag.  Specifically, I like to have the date and time of the scheduled event
established by a form.  For example, let's say the user completes a form
including date and time fields.  If the submitted date and time is 11/22/00
15:30:00, the respective form would be triggered at 3:30pm on 11/22/00.

I do realize that the form with the <cfschedule> tag would need to set-up
with some variables:
<cfschedule action="UPDATE"
            task="sendemail"
            operation="HTTPRequest"
            url="http://127.0.0.1/mail.cfm"
            startdate="#startdate#"
            starttime="#starttime#"
            enddate="#enddate#"
            endtime="#endtime#"
            interval="NOW"
            resolveurl="Yes"
            publish="No">

How does the server need to be configured?  How about the tag?  Any
suggestions if this is possible or how it could be accomplished are warmly
welcomed. Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

--- Ed Nolan

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 14:32:35 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:32:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] CFSCHEDULE
In-Reply-To: <005501c0532f$96ec22c0$cad44240@pluto>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIEEDDFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

I'm not sure what you mean by 'how does the sever need to be configured'.
Out of the box, CFSCHEDULE will work as you want it. The only issue is the
scheduler interval. This tells CF how often it should check for new events.
By default it is set for 15 minutes, so if you use CFSCHEDULE to create an
event to run in the next few minutes, CF may 'miss' it.

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ed Nolan
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 3:22 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] CFSCHEDULE
>
>
> Just curious if anyone has explored the possibilities of the <cfschedule>
> tag.  Specifically, I like to have the date and time of the
> scheduled event
> established by a form.  For example, let's say the user completes a form
> including date and time fields.  If the submitted date and time
> is 11/22/00
> 15:30:00, the respective form would be triggered at 3:30pm on 11/22/00.
>
> I do realize that the form with the <cfschedule> tag would need to set-up
> with some variables:
> <cfschedule action="UPDATE"
>             task="sendemail"
>             operation="HTTPRequest"
>             url="http://127.0.0.1/mail.cfm"
>             startdate="#startdate#"
>             starttime="#starttime#"
>             enddate="#enddate#"
>             endtime="#endtime#"
>             interval="NOW"
>             resolveurl="Yes"
>             publish="No">
>
> How does the server need to be configured?  How about the tag?  Any
> suggestions if this is possible or how it could be accomplished are warmly
> welcomed. Thanks in advance.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --- Ed Nolan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From Tony at IdeaSystems.com  Mon Nov 20 14:34:57 2000
From: Tony at IdeaSystems.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:34:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Further ASP/Access Questions
In-Reply-To: <7171306544DBD31195B900D0B7222A4EE34859@haxcre00.healthaxis
 .com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120123515.01a02b10@baratta.com>

At 09:55 AM 11/20/2000, you wrote:
>Okay, I am building a database in Access with a web interface (of course).
>I have a <TEXTAREA> where people can enter a block of text.  I'm using
>VBScript.  Here's my questions:
>
>1.  I am concerned about adding the contents of the TEXTAREA to the database
>-- particularly people using things like single- and double-quotes, which
>will, of course, break the SQL Statement.  Anyone know, off the top of their
>head, a way to convert the text entered into the TEXTAREA into a string that
>I can insert into my SQL statement?

You can do several things. I used to run all user text through the 
URLencode function in VB Scripting. I then wrote/stole a URLdecode function 
to get the data out. However, it makes searching data a b*tch.

Now, with MS SQL Server I just escape the single quotes with an extra 
quote. And then convert the text with HTMLencode when I display it to the 
browser.

>2.  With the Fontosaurus site I built, I discovered that the database seems
>to limit the maximum # of characters that can be entered into a field.  I've
>been ignoring this and keeping descriptions short, but is there another data
>type I can employ that will allow for longer pieces of data in the field?

Use the Memo field type.

----
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys

From Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov  Mon Nov 20 14:47:59 2000
From: Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov (Howell, Katie)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:47:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A80120591B9B1@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>

One quick update....The form that is passing the info is used for adding
records or updating them, depending on what the user wants to do.  The error
occurs when I'm trying to add a record.  Here's the code for the save page:

<CFIF ID IS "ADD">
<cfquery name="insert" datasource="webuser">
INSERT INTO IMAR_PROJ ( 
	PROJ_NAME,
	DESCRIPTION
	)
VALUES (
	'#PROJ_NAME#',
	'#DESCRIPTION#'
	)
</cfquery>
<CFELSE>
<cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#', 
		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
</cfquery>
</CFIF>

The debuggings shows that it's trying to update a record with the PROJ_ID of
"ADD".  When the add button is selected, ID="ADD" is passed via this
javascript:

So the save.cfm template should know that the value of ID = ADD.

Thanks for your suggestions....I'm gonna think on this a bit and tackle it
again in the AM

Katie

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel J. Cody [mailto:djc at five2one.org]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:51 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *

Katie -

Shot in the dark, but try making your sql statement(and maybe even CF 
vars) lowercase. This is a really wack problem, so lets try some wack 
solutions :)

Lemme know if that works.. Also, turn on debugging if you can and post 
the SQL that CF is sending to oracle

.djc.

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 14:52:15 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:52:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A80120591B9B1@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIAEDFFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

You say that your problem occurs when you try to ADD data, but, you got a CF
error in the SET area. Maybe there is a logic flaw in your code? Before your
CFIF, try adding:

and make sure that the value is being passed. By the way, if you are using
URL parameters, you _really_ need to specify that. Ie, don't use Add, use
URL.Add.

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Howell, Katie
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 3:45 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
>
>
> One quick update....The form that is passing the info is used for adding
> records or updating them, depending on what the user wants to do.
>  The error
> occurs when I'm trying to add a record.  Here's the code for the
> save page:
>
> <CFIF ID IS "ADD">
> <cfquery name="insert" datasource="webuser">
> INSERT INTO IMAR_PROJ (
> 	PROJ_NAME,
> 	DESCRIPTION
> 	)
> VALUES (
> 	'#PROJ_NAME#',
> 	'#DESCRIPTION#'
> 	)
> </cfquery>
> <CFELSE>
> <cfquery name="Update" datasource="webuser">
> UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
> SET  	PROJ_NAME ='#PROJ_NAME#',
> 		DESCRIPTION ='#DESCRIPTION#'
> WHERE   PROJ_ID = #ID#
> </cfquery>
> </CFIF>
>
> The debuggings shows that it's trying to update a record with the
> PROJ_ID of
> "ADD".  When the add button is selected, ID="ADD" is passed via this
> javascript:
>
> <a href="javascript:show('A','ADD')"><img
> src="/sgs/common/images/buttons/btn_add.gif" width="71" height="26"
> border="0" alt=""></a>
>
> So the save.cfm template should know that the value of ID = ADD.
>
> Thanks for your suggestions....I'm gonna think on this a bit and tackle it
> again in the AM
>
> Katie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel J. Cody [mailto:djc at five2one.org]
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:51 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
>
>
> Katie -
>
> Shot in the dark, but try making your sql statement(and maybe even CF
> vars) lowercase. This is a really wack problem, so lets try some wack
> solutions :)
>
> Lemme know if that works.. Also, turn on debugging if you can and post
> the SQL that CF is sending to oracle
>
> .djc.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From seth at sethbienek.com  Mon Nov 20 14:53:31 2000
From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek)
Date: Mon Nov 20 14:53:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A801205912DCB@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <FEEILENNJJNPMEGLELDIMEEKCPAA.seth@sethbienek.com>

Hi Katie,

What is the scope of the #ID# variable?  Could it be defined in more than
one scope in different parts of the template/app?  I'm thinking that NN and
IE may handle empty values differently somewhere (cookies? who nose..), and
while IE is passing 0, NN is passing an empty value..?  That would make your
(resulting) SQL look like:

UPDATE  IMAR_PROJ
 SET  	PROJ_NAME ='foo',
 		DESCRIPTION ='bar'
 WHERE   PROJ_ID =

Which is what comes to mind when I see a "unexpected end of SQL command"
error.

This is somewhat of a shot in the dark, but without seeing your resulting
SQL as provided by CF, it's the best I can do.. :)

<tip type="ColdFusion" Title="Forcing number values in CF">
If you're using a number supplied by a user (or another unreliable source)
within a cf-query, you can force the variable to be read as a number by
using the Val() function.

If a valid number is not entered, the variable will be returned as 0.

<cfquery name="foo" datasource="bar">
SELECT blah
FROM boo
WHERE UserID = #Val(Form.UserID)#
</cfquery>

</tip>
Best Regards,

Seth

------------------------------
Seth Bienek
Solutions Development Manager
Stonebridge Technologies, Inc.
972.455.7294 tel
972.404.9754 fax
------------------------------

From Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca  Mon Nov 20 15:29:11 2000
From: Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca (Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca)
Date: Mon Nov 20 15:29:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
Message-ID: <OF0A311748.95855701-ON8525699D.006C5346@1.10.196>

> All ColdFusion does is pass the stuff (SQL) to your DB. 
> ColdFusion doesn't have a SQL engine it itself.

hi raymond

couldn't help noticing from your sig file that you are from allaire

welcome to evolt.borg -- oops, i mean evolt.org

you realize, of course, that by identifying yourself, you raise our 
expectations that you will answer all the *tough* product-related 
questions   ;o)

as you can see there's at least one other vendor listmember here, from 
macromedia

jd's act will be a tough one to follow (but it looks like you're doing 
fine) -- he's always friendly, often humourous, as well as being very 
informative, while at the same time *not* coming across as a commercial 
for his company...  altogether very cool...

about the sql -- yes indeed, every database has a different flavour of 
sql, which is something not immediately obvious to web developers building 
their first database-enabled site, although anybody that has ported an 
access database to some other format will know this   ;o)

> [CF5] -will- have CFSQL, which will allow you to write a
> query against an existing query.

well, that is pretty darn cool

do you have to run the first query first, to get it into cache as query 
results?

the reason i ask....

<tip type="msaccess sql">
in microsoft access, you create the equivalent of an sql VIEW by writing a 
query based on another query
  example: save the following query as CurrMonth
      select Foo1, Foo2 from Bar
       where FooDate 
          between DateAdd("m",-1,Date())
              and Date()
  note: this is actually "within the last xx days" 
        instead of "current month" but i didn't know 
        what else to call it  ;o) 
if you will be using the second query in msaccess only, here's how to 
define it
  - from the menu bar select Query, Show Table
  - in the dialog window that pops up, press the Queries tab
  - select your query, press Add, then Close
  - define and save your query
if you will be using the second query in a web page, you don't actually 
have to define or save it in msaccess, you can just run it in your web 
page inside the CFQUERY tags 
  example: 
    <cfquery name="lilabner" datasource="#data#">>
      select Foo1 from CurrMonth
       where Foo2 > 'schmoo'
    </cfquery>
in this regard, the msaccess query behaves exactly like an sql VIEW -- you 
can *think* of it as running the second query against the result rows from 
the first query, although the dabatase (inlcuding the msaccess jet engine) 
will combine the criteria "under the covers" and actually only run one 
query
</tip>

from what little i know of cf, i'm guessing that CFSQL will act only 
within the cf engine on the query results already returned from the 
database

please correct me if this is not right

rudy
r937.com

From rcamden at allaire.com  Mon Nov 20 15:39:03 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Mon Nov 20 15:39:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Netscape Only error using CF and Oracle *
In-Reply-To: <OF0A311748.95855701-ON8525699D.006C5346@1.10.196>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIMEDHFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

>
> welcome to evolt.borg -- oops, i mean evolt.org

Thanks, nice to be here. :>

> you realize, of course, that by identifying yourself, you raise our
> expectations that you will answer all the *tough* product-related
> questions   ;o)

Errr, well, I'll try my best. Of course, be aware that I'm not the 'voice of
Allaire'. I've never really been any good at the whole corporate-voice type
thing. ;)

> > [CF5] -will- have CFSQL, which will allow you to write a
> > query against an existing query.
>
> do you have to run the first query first, to get it into cache as query
> results?

Well - err, yes, it has to be a query. See below.

> the reason i ask....
>
> <tip type="msaccess sql">
> > from what little i know of cf, i'm guessing that CFSQL will act only
> within the cf engine on the query results already returned from the
> database
>

Ah, it seems like your asking, and I could be wrong, does it matter -what
kind of query- it is. The answer is no. First off, big ole disclaimer
time -> CF 5 is still in development. All I'm relating is what was talked
about at the conference as a POSSIBLE implementation. Even though I work for
Allaire, I'm a grunt like everyone else so I don't know the whole story.

Ok, anyway, the cool thing about CFSQL is that it can run against -any- kind
of query. For example, imagine using CFPOP to retrieve email into a query.
Then imagine using CFLDAP to query a LDAP server. You could then use CFSQL
to create a new query out of those two existing (but very different)
queries(what -is- the correct spelling for the plural of query? :) that
joins LDAP user info about the user linked to the 'From' field of the email.

Here is a simple example:
<CFQUERY NAME="GetItAll" DATASOURCE="Foo">
	SELECT * FROM HugeTable
</CFQUERY>

Imagine this code is run in Application.cfm and stored into an application
variable. It's run once and only once. Now, in any script, you can do:

<CFQUERY not sure of the exact args>
	SELECT * FROM TheQuery, not the database
	WHERE
		Field1 < X AND
		Field2 > Y AND
		Name = '%Camden%'
</CFQUERY>

As you can see, we did one big query on top to get all the data and store it
in ram. After we've done that, we can do use normal SQL commands to parse
the data.

Again, this is all subject to change, but if it comes out like I think it
will be, this is a -very- cool feature. You can find out more about CF 5 by
going to www.allaire.com/conference and viewing the first keynote. (You can
see ugly ole me if you view the second say keynote. :)

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

From comitque at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 20 16:33:51 2000
From: comitque at hotmail.com (Andrew Martin)
Date: Mon Nov 20 16:33:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] dhtml / display in netscape
Message-ID: <2995200011120223347548@prispop.com>

Is there a way to use the dhtml 'display' property with netscape?  i can
only access this property using IE.  I've tried all variations of:

document.divName.display = "block"

and

document.layers[divName].display = "block"

to get it to work but no avail.  Any suggestions?

From janice at discoverysystems.com  Mon Nov 20 16:56:55 2000
From: janice at discoverysystems.com (JTocher)
Date: Mon Nov 20 16:56:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] how'd they do that?
In-Reply-To: <3A18AB3D.3FBCEB25@pintsize.com>
Message-ID: <B63F168C.22ED%janice@discoverysystems.com>

Hi Meredith,
Here's another pretty cool implementation similar to the page you
referred...

http://www.art.net/~starhawk/effects3.htm

Unfortunately, the folk at 'angeltherapy' didn't check their creation across
operating systems... as the image on my G3 powerbook seems to be out of
order in IE v5 (just thought you'd want to know in case you're thinking of
implementing similar for your own site).

Janice

on 11/19/00 11:40 PM, you wrote:

> Check out the waterfall image on this page:
> http://www.angeltherapy.com/body.html
> 
> Is this just an animated gif?  How did they get the text
> over the animation?
> 
> Just wondering,
> Meredith
> 
> --
> PintSize Graphics & Web Hosting, Inc.
> http://www.pintsize.com
> meredith at pintsize.com
> 3225 S. MacDill Ave. #208
> Tampa, FL 33629
> 813-835-5382
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From meyer at up.edu  Mon Nov 20 17:16:57 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Mon Nov 20 17:16:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] how'd they do that?
In-Reply-To: <B63F168C.22ED%janice@discoverysystems.com>
References: <B63F168C.22ED%janice@discoverysystems.com>
Message-ID: <a05001905b63f5f781ee9@[192.220.215.231]>

yeah, the waterfall was messed up on my Mac, too.

This stuff, though:
http://www.art.net/~starhawk/effects3.htm

is different.  They are Java applets;
someone showed me the one called 'lake'
(they called it 'reflect')
back when I tried (and failed) to learn Java
back in early 1998.

Erika

>Hi Meredith,
>Here's another pretty cool implementation similar to the page you
>referred...
>
>http://www.art.net/~starhawk/effects3.htm
>
>Unfortunately, the folk at 'angeltherapy' didn't check their creation across
>operating systems... as the image on my G3 powerbook seems to be out of
>order in IE v5 (just thought you'd want to know in case you're thinking of
>implementing similar for your own site).
>
>Janice
>
>on 11/19/00 11:40 PM, you wrote:
>
>>  Check out the waterfall image on this page:
>>  http://www.angeltherapy.com/body.html
>>
>>  Is this just an animated gif?  How did they get the text
>  > over the animation?
>  >
>  > Just wondering,
>  > Meredith

From meredith at pintsize.com  Mon Nov 20 17:28:50 2000
From: meredith at pintsize.com (Meredith Tupper)
Date: Mon Nov 20 17:28:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] how'd they do that?
References: <B63F168C.22ED%janice@discoverysystems.com> <a05001905b63f5f781ee9@[192.220.215.231]>
Message-ID: <3A19B39F.598E8FFF@pintsize.com>

Erika Meyer wrote:

> yeah, the waterfall was messed up on my Mac, too.

Doh!

> This stuff, though:
> http://www.art.net/~starhawk/effects3.htm
>
> is different.  They are Java applets;
> someone showed me the one called 'lake'
> (they called it 'reflect')
> back when I tried (and failed) to learn Java
> back in early 1998.

I recall seeing the lake applet before, and I recall its browser-crashing
tendency at the time.  No doubt such applets are more stable now (or perhaps the
browsers are) but I am hesitant to use them yet.  That's why I thought the
animated waterfall gif was so cool - simple and pretty.  Thanks Janice and Erika
for the reminder to check cross-platform.

Meredith

--
PintSize Graphics & Web Hosting, Inc.
http://www.pintsize.com
meredith at pintsize.com
3225 S. MacDill Ave. #208
Tampa, FL 33629
813-835-5382

From amanda at gawow.com  Mon Nov 20 17:48:31 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Mon Nov 20 17:48:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] how'd they do that?
In-Reply-To: <3A19B39F.598E8FFF@pintsize.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKCELHDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>

go to evici.com for another beautiful .gif animation. you have to send
yourself a prayer flag in order to see it. I love that whole site -- minimal
and spare but breathtaking.

- amanda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Meredith Tupper
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 3:29 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] how'd they do that?
>
>
> Erika Meyer wrote:
>
> > yeah, the waterfall was messed up on my Mac, too.
>
> Doh!
>
> > This stuff, though:
> > http://www.art.net/~starhawk/effects3.htm
> >
> > is different.  They are Java applets;
> > someone showed me the one called 'lake'
> > (they called it 'reflect')
> > back when I tried (and failed) to learn Java
> > back in early 1998.
>
> I recall seeing the lake applet before, and I recall its browser-crashing
> tendency at the time.  No doubt such applets are more stable now
> (or perhaps the
> browsers are) but I am hesitant to use them yet.  That's why I thought the
> animated waterfall gif was so cool - simple and pretty.  Thanks
> Janice and Erika
> for the reminder to check cross-platform.
>
> Meredith
>
> --
> PintSize Graphics & Web Hosting, Inc.
> http://www.pintsize.com
> meredith at pintsize.com
> 3225 S. MacDill Ave. #208
> Tampa, FL 33629
> 813-835-5382
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From joelm at citycent.com  Mon Nov 20 18:58:50 2000
From: joelm at citycent.com (Joel Morris)
Date: Mon Nov 20 18:58:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP
Message-ID: <HJEKJLKDBKMALNNKCGFPGECBDOAA.joelm@citycent.com>

I've got two different jobs coming up where I need to pass information from
an HTML form to an ASP page for some processing, and then send the form info
onto another page for user action or for additional processing.

Example:

Page1.htm: HTML form, user selects a type of payment (cash or credit card)
in an option/select field.

Page2.asp: an ASP page - if the user selects "credit card", continue on with
the shopping cart (Page3A.asp). If they select "cash" then capture the data
into the database and route to a regular HTML page (Page3B.htm).

In this instance, how do I get the info from Page2.asp to Page3A.asp? I
can't use Session Variables because it will go across different servers. I
can't use the "GET" method (append the info the URL) because there is too
much information.

I don't want to create a form with hidden fields and another "Submit" button
because it would be counter-intuitive to the user and kludgey.

An analogous problem would be: how do you create a form/script entirely with
<input type=hidden name=name value=value> and no "Submit" button and have
the info passed to the next page/script via Method=Post?

I hope I'm making sense here (and that I haven't embarrassed myself by
overlooking something patently obvious).

I await enlightenment from the wise ones.

Joel Morris
CityCenter Co.
Web Development & Marketing
mailto:joelm at citycent.com
http://www.citycent.com

From adrian at logo-logic.com  Mon Nov 20 19:00:19 2000
From: adrian at logo-logic.com (Adrian Fischer)
Date: Mon Nov 20 19:00:19 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?
Message-ID: <002301c05356$5c8225e0$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au>

Hi Gang,

Scenario..Search on a criteria and then show 10 records per page.

What would be quicker...
Selecting all the records that meet the criteria and then only show 10 at a
time i.e select all then show records 0-9..select all again then show
records 10-19 etc (using an if ()).
or
select records that meet criteria but use LIMIT i.e select all that meet
LIMIT 0,10....then select again but show LIMIT 10,10...etc (the first number
being the offset and the second being the number of records to return).

I'm thinking that the second is quicker because it doesn't have to read the
whole table.  But is it less effective because it has to find the start and
end point each time? Or does it depend on the number of records in the
table?

Opinions/Comments.

Thanks

Adrian Fischer
DB Numpty

From judah at alphashop.com  Mon Nov 20 19:20:01 2000
From: judah at alphashop.com (Judah McAuley)
Date: Mon Nov 20 19:20:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?
In-Reply-To: <002301c05356$5c8225e0$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001120170629.0180b0a8@alphashop.com>

At 10:59 AM 11/21/2000 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi Gang,
>
>Scenario..Search on a criteria and then show 10 records per page.
>
>What would be quicker...
>Selecting all the records that meet the criteria and then only show 10 at a
>time i.e select all then show records 0-9..select all again then show
>records 10-19 etc (using an if ()).
>or
>select records that meet criteria but use LIMIT i.e select all that meet
>LIMIT 0,10....then select again but show LIMIT 10,10...etc (the first number
>being the offset and the second being the number of records to return).
>
>I'm thinking that the second is quicker because it doesn't have to read the
>whole table.  But is it less effective because it has to find the start and
>end point each time? Or does it depend on the number of records in the
>table?

The second case would certainly decrease the amount of information pulled 
from the database, so each query would be faster.  However, if you have a 
fast machine and a relatively small amount of data being pulled, then the 
greatest overhead is actually in the opening/closing of the database 
connection.  In this situation, it may make more sense to read the whole 
recordset into a memory variable and then loop through the variable instead 
of opening new database connections.

And in response to Seth's earlier CF Val() tip...

<tip type="ColdFusion" Title="Beware of forcing number values in CF">
Always be aware of your data types.  Val() assumes that your value can be 
converted to an integer.  If you are retrieving a number from a source 
(say, an identity column) then the number may be perfectly valid but larger 
than an INT and running the Val() function will not do what you expect. 
Example: If you have a value that is a Numeric 18,0 and it's 15 digits long 
then Val(thatnumber) will not return the 15 digit number.
</tip>

Judah

From simon.davies at bigpond.com  Mon Nov 20 19:30:34 2000
From: simon.davies at bigpond.com (Simon Davies)
Date: Mon Nov 20 19:30:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001120170629.0180b0a8@alphashop.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLFFDNGBPKCHDNAMGMEDADFAA.simon.davies@bigpond.com>

Uh, if you're using ADO just use the number of records per page pagesize and
make life easy for yourself. No special coding required in the SP:

'Open the connection
funOpenDb

'
sSql = "webSelectAllMerchantProductListsForPostcode " & iPostCodeID & ", " &
iAlpha
if funSelectSQL(adoRecordSet, sSql, true, false) then
 if not adoRecordSet.eof and not adoRecordSet.bof then
  'Paging
  'Set number of records required per page
  adoRecordSet.pagesize = 10
  'Set logical page number, if 1 then 1-10 isplayed, if 2 then 11-20
displayed etc you have to maintain this on your prev/next page buttons
  adoRecordSet.absolutepage = iPage

'Loop through the required number of records
  for iRecord = 1 to adoRecordSet.pagesize
    ...
    ...
    adoRecordSet.movenext
    if adoRecordSet.eof then exit for
  next
 end if
end if

Simon

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Judah McAuley
Sent: Tuesday, 21 November 2000 09:20
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?

At 10:59 AM 11/21/2000 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi Gang,
>
>Scenario..Search on a criteria and then show 10 records per page.
>
>What would be quicker...
>Selecting all the records that meet the criteria and then only show 10 at a
>time i.e select all then show records 0-9..select all again then show
>records 10-19 etc (using an if ()).
>or
>select records that meet criteria but use LIMIT i.e select all that meet
>LIMIT 0,10....then select again but show LIMIT 10,10...etc (the first
number
>being the offset and the second being the number of records to return).
>
>I'm thinking that the second is quicker because it doesn't have to read the
>whole table.  But is it less effective because it has to find the start and
>end point each time? Or does it depend on the number of records in the
>table?

The second case would certainly decrease the amount of information pulled
from the database, so each query would be faster.  However, if you have a
fast machine and a relatively small amount of data being pulled, then the
greatest overhead is actually in the opening/closing of the database
connection.  In this situation, it may make more sense to read the whole
recordset into a memory variable and then loop through the variable instead
of opening new database connections.

And in response to Seth's earlier CF Val() tip...

<tip type="ColdFusion" Title="Beware of forcing number values in CF">
Always be aware of your data types.  Val() assumes that your value can be
converted to an integer.  If you are retrieving a number from a source
(say, an identity column) then the number may be perfectly valid but larger
than an INT and running the Val() function will not do what you expect.
Example: If you have a value that is a Numeric 18,0 and it's 15 digits long
then Val(thatnumber) will not return the 15 digit number.
</tip>

Judah

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From isaac at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 20 20:54:07 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Mon Nov 20 20:54:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] Paragraphs within lists
In-Reply-To: <3A145C57.32562.1F425054@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBCEOBDOAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> but then again, i've always felt that if i'm putting that much text in a
> list element, i must not have very good text or the list element isn't
> the right tag to use...

consider an <ol>: imagine a legal document. clause (a), (b), (c), etc.
that's gonna be packed with paragraphs. and it's gonna want an <ol>

if the ordered list, and list elements aren't the right thing to use, what
are?

i've just coded a Code of Conduct for a sporting club. it nests <ol>'s about
3 levels deep, with many paragraphs in some of the list elements. (bitch to
hand-code and keep in mind which level of nesting you're on, but it reads ok
on the resulting page.)

i think that you might be just getting used to thinking of lists
specifically as little lists of tiny amounts of info...

btw, i use <cite> a lot more often than <span> since you pulled that evolt
2.0 stunt. ;) even if only to ensure that, by default, in netscape3 (ie,
non-CSS) the text cited will appear differentally to standard paragraph
text. would that still be using it for structural (over appearance)
purposes? ie, i don't care how it appears, just that it appears
differentally to the standard text near it.

isaac

--------------------------
                                           isaac: triple zero digital
                                           dynamic internet solutions
                                           e: isaac at triplezero.com.au
                                           web: www.triplezero.com.au
                                           mobile phone: 0414 758 000

From isaac at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 20 21:43:45 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Mon Nov 20 21:43:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL Multiple entries in same column?
In-Reply-To: <OFDCF706CA.79BEB09C-ON85256996.006C9B2C@1.10.196>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGEODDOAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> the thing to remember, though, is that a many-to-many logical
> relationship
> is always implemented as two one-to-many physical relationships
>
> holler if you would like me to give examples

just quickly for those who've not tried a many-to-many relationship (in a
database that is ;)), here's a little example that might help things make
sense. i'm far from an expert, so rudy will correct me if i screw things up.
(he was the one who helped me work it out in the first place.)

anyway, imagine that you have a table of basketball club members. you'd have
columns like memberid, membername, memberemail, memberprofile, etc.

then, imagine that the club had multiple teams (mens division 1, mens
reserves, womens division 2, etc). the columns in the team table might be
teamid, teamname, etc.

now, each team is going to relate to multiple/many members. if each member
only played for one team, then you'd be fine with a one-to-many r'ship: just
throw a teamid column in the member table.

but if you have some people playing for multiple teams, you'll need a
many-to-many r'ship, and as rudy suggested, you implement this using two
one-to-many r'ships. this means you'll want a go between table. something
that shares teamid's and memberid's. think of this table as a recording of
"player records".

in the player table, the fields would be playerid (your primary key),
memberid, teamid (the 2 foreign keys), and you might want to have an extra
field: playercaptain. this can specify whether or not a member on any
particular team is the captain or not.

your one-to-many r'ships would exist like so:

member.memberid - player.memberid
and
	team.teamid - player.teamid

the in-between table (PLAYER) links members to teams giving you your
many-to-many r'ship.

i'll populate the db:

MEMBER
memberid	membername
1		isaac
2		rudy
3		oliver

TEAM
teamid	teamname
1		mens div1
2		mens div2
3		mixed casual
4		veteran div1

if i played for div1 and mixed casual, oliver captained div2, and rudy
played for div2 and captained veteran div1, the PLAYER table would be
something like this:

PLAYER
playerid	teamid	memberid	playercaptain
1		1		1		no
2		3		1		no
3		2		3		yes
4		2		2		no
5		4		2		yes

hope this helps clear some things up for other db newbies (i'm not far from
it myself :p)

isaac
                                           --------------------------
                                           isaac: triple zero digital
                                           dynamic internet solutions
                                           e: isaac at triplezero.com.au
                                           web: www.triplezero.com.au
                                           mobile phone: 0414 758 000

From thesite at lists.evolt.org  Mon Nov 20 23:59:57 2000
From: thesite at lists.evolt.org (thesite at lists.evolt.org)
Date: Mon Nov 20 23:59:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 21-Nov-00
Message-ID: <200011210559.XAA17579@poet.oracular.com>

evolt.org headlines for 21-Nov-00

Using Files to Send Emails with IIS, part 2 of 2
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=17&cid=3875

Happy reading...

the evolt.org admin team

From erika at seastorm.com  Tue Nov 21 00:42:54 2000
From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 00:42:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] XML: recipe DTD
In-Reply-To: <200011210559.XAA17579@poet.oracular.com>
References: <200011210559.XAA17579@poet.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <v04220801b63fc842743c@[216.176.7.184]>

Hey, you know that (seems like a classic) XML example where you are 
marking up a recipe?

There is a pre-made recipe DTD out there, right?

does anyone know if I can:
build a searchable XML database of recipes on my server
& display the results on my HTML (XHTML, whatever) web documents?

Does anyone know where I can find a how-to on how to mark-up recipes 
with XML for real-world use?

Erika
erika at seastorm.com

From algrimes at acs.ucalgary.ca  Tue Nov 21 01:33:01 2000
From: algrimes at acs.ucalgary.ca (Tony Grimes)
Date: Tue Nov 21 01:33:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] Logging traffic with .htaccess
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10011210021090.101762-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>

If I password protect a directory using .htaccess, does Apache have a
way to log successfull/unsuccessful logins to the directory or do I have
to use a separate script? Ideally, I'd like to keep track of
HTTP_USER_AGENT, originating IPs, and what username/passwd they're using
if they're not getting in.

.tony

From mike.king at redroom.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 06:04:54 2000
From: mike.king at redroom.co.uk (Mike King)
Date: Tue Nov 21 06:04:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP
In-Reply-To: <HJEKJLKDBKMALNNKCGFPGECBDOAA.joelm@citycent.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20001121115924.00a83af0@127.0.0.1>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Joe,

Couldn't you just combine page2, page3a and page3b together e.g.

<%Option Explicit

'' pseudo code
If there's no info
         chuck back with an error
else
         do the first bit of stuff
         if creditcard = 1 then
                 do the credit card stuff
         elseif it's the other
                 do the other stuff
         else
                 somethings wrong and error
         end if
end if
'' end code
%>

I suppose you could even wrap the whole page into one e.g. form, processing 
and error handling.

Cheers
mk

ps
Any UK people out there, wondering whether it's worth taking the plunge for 
DSL or Cable Modem... DO IT NOW =)

At 00:58 21/11/2000, Joel Morris wrote...
>I've got two different jobs coming up where I need to pass information from
>an HTML form to an ASP page for some processing, and then send the form info
>onto another page for user action or for additional processing.

- --
http://www.redroom.co.uk
t. 07971 292 999
e. mike.king at redroom.co.uk
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iQA/AwUBOhpk9/oJZSzUdy33EQI6fQCeO4n6DOv/uYdnkWgMJBmzs0G8f0EAn1Oi
G/QNEEwxakkZHhQIXqzEHGkL
=zVrt
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From lizlawson at charitycards.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 06:16:58 2000
From: lizlawson at charitycards.co.uk (Liz Lawson)
Date: Tue Nov 21 06:16:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP
Message-ID: <00b901c053b5$0badcf20$03c812ac@liz>

>An analogous problem would be: how do you create a form/script entirely
with
><input type=hidden name=name value=value> and no "Submit" button and have
>the info passed to the next page/script via Method=Post?

I have this set up with a javascript onLoad() to submit the form (and also a
submit button for users without js enabled.)

(I don't like it very much either. It's a legacy thing and I want to dump it
as soon as we get past Christmas...)

HTH

Liz

From john.scoot at virgin.net  Tue Nov 21 06:33:15 2000
From: john.scoot at virgin.net (John Scoot)
Date: Tue Nov 21 06:33:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
Message-ID: <000901c053b7$399105e0$040a0a0a@scoot>

Could you please check out our site at www.floodcontrol.co.uk we would
especially would like to make sure it works ok on macs.
Any critical comments would also be appreciated.
thanks folks,
JohnS.

salutary tip to follow shortly

From vmv at online.sinor.ru  Tue Nov 21 06:34:14 2000
From: vmv at online.sinor.ru (Michael V. Vladimirov)
Date: Tue Nov 21 06:34:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] Logging traffic with .htaccess
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.10.10011210021090.101762-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
References: <Pine.A41.4.10.10011210021090.101762-100000@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <266762433.20001121183333@online.sinor.ru>

Hello Tony,

Tuesday, November 21, 2000, 1:33:11 PM, you wrote:

TG>      If I password protect a directory using .htaccess, does Apache have a
TG> way to log successfull/unsuccessful logins to the directory or do I have
TG> to use a separate script? Ideally, I'd like to keep track of
TG> HTTP_USER_AGENT, originating IPs, and what username/passwd they're using
TG> if they're not getting in.

It logs when there is an 'unauthorized' error and logs when there are
authenticated hits.

-- 
Best regards,
 Michael                            mailto:vmv at online.sinor.ru

From stef at nota-bene.org  Tue Nov 21 07:04:36 2000
From: stef at nota-bene.org (s t e f)
Date: Tue Nov 21 07:04:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
In-Reply-To: <000901c053b7$399105e0$040a0a0a@scoot>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121140104.009ed970@mail.nota-bene.org>

[sender: John Scoot || date: 12:33 21/11/2000 +0000]
>Could you please check out our site at www.floodcontrol.co.uk we would
>especially would like to make sure it works ok on macs.
>Any critical comments would also be appreciated.

Careful with a little Dreamweaver thingie :

< script language="JavaScript">
< !--
< !--
function MM_reloadPage(init) {  //reloads the window if Nav4 resized
   ....
}
MM_reloadPage(true);
// -- >

function MM_swapImgRestore() { //v3.0
   ....
}

function MM_preloadImages() { //v3.0
   ....
}

function MM_findObj(n, d) { //v3.0
   ....
}

function MM_swapImage() { //v3.0
   ....
}
//-- >
< /script>

See?

You included the famous "Netscape Resize bug fix" (to no avail since you 
have no DIVs in the pages, thus no loss was going to occur if you omitted 
the script). While doing so, DW rewrites a < !-- and a //-- >. Make sure 
this is cleaned. I'm not sure there really is a problem leaving it, but it 
sure isn't correct syntax!

s t e f

From lisa at koolfish.com  Tue Nov 21 09:40:29 2000
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew)
Date: Tue Nov 21 09:40:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
Message-ID: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAKENGCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>

Hi,
My clients site is finished and he is expecting it live in the morning.
I am having this weird problem with the ftp in dreamweaver. When I press the
connect button the program hangs and refuses to respond. The only way out is
by pressing control alt delete. I thought it may just be dreamweaver so I
tried connecting with various other sites they all work fine. It is only the
site I need desperately to be up that won't connect. I tried deleting the
folder from the define sites list and then redefining the site and all the
ftp information. The same thing happened. Any ideas as to what I can do to
fix it? I have never used any other ftp program before. Is my only option to
re-install dreamweaver again and lose all my preferences and ftp info. I had
to do this a about a month back because the ftp was rather temperamental.
Lisa.

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Tue Nov 21 09:50:37 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 09:50:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAKENGCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <20001121105047-r01010600-2599dca7@209.61.127.211>

Dreamweaver's FTP can be tempermental. Try checking or unchecking the "Use Passive FTP" box under the web site portion of the site definition for the site you are having trouble with, sometimes this helps.

On 11/21/00 at 10:46 PM, lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew) wrote:

> Hi,
> My clients site is finished and he is expecting it live in the morning.
> I am having this weird problem with the ftp in dreamweaver. When I press the
> connect button the program hangs and refuses to respond. The only way out is
> by pressing control alt delete. I thought it may just be dreamweaver so I
> tried connecting with various other sites they all work fine. It is only the
> site I need desperately to be up that won't connect. I tried deleting the
> folder from the define sites list and then redefining the site and all the
> ftp information. The same thing happened. Any ideas as to what I can do to
> fix it? I have never used any other ftp program before. Is my only option to
> re-install dreamweaver again and lose all my preferences and ftp info. I had
> to do this a about a month back because the ftp was rather temperamental.
> Lisa.

Matt Fischer || e-fish solutions, inc      (e)   \\\\\__   o  
   <mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com>           (e) /    o  \ o
  <http://www.e-fishsolutions.com>           (e)    ((  <
    877.WEB.FISH || 203.272.2987            (e) \+_+_+_/
           Fax 800.203.5816                (e)     \|/

From john.pye at purplehouse.com  Tue Nov 21 09:50:48 2000
From: john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye)
Date: Tue Nov 21 09:50:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAKENGCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGCECGCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>

Lisa,

> I am having this weird problem with
> the ftp in dreamweaver.

I'd think about using another FTP program, given your tight timeline. Try
LeechFTP or WS_FTP LE - they are both free and available from
www.download.com

Both of those programs give you a readout of what's going on during the
connection process, so you'll be able to see in there's a problem with your
server.

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Tue Nov 21 09:56:36 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 09:56:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGCECGCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>
Message-ID: <20001121105647-r01010600-97ce065f@209.61.127.211>

On 11/21/00 at 3:50 PM, john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye) wrote:

> > I am having this weird problem with
> > the ftp in dreamweaver.
> 
> I'd think about using another FTP program, given your tight timeline. Try
> LeechFTP or WS_FTP LE - they are both free and available from
> www.download.com
> 
> Both of those programs give you a readout of what's going on during the
> connection process, so you'll be able to see in there's a problem with your
> server.

Good point, actually Dreamweaver will too if you open the site log window before you try to connect...

From Ron.Luther at COMPAQ.com  Tue Nov 21 10:09:35 2000
From: Ron.Luther at COMPAQ.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:09:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP
Message-ID: <446A57B73D16D411811B00508B6CA242023B69B0@cceexc03.cce.cpqcorp.net>

Hi Joel,

If your server can stand the work ... how 'bout tossing all that bothersome
data into a db ... you could pass a key in the "get" url ... and have access
to all the information you want - from any of your pages.

(...and if your server can't --- buy a nice new one!   ;-)  ... just
kidding!)

HTH,

Ron L.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Morris [mailto:joelm at citycent.com]
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP

I
can't use the "GET" method (append the info the URL) because there is too
much information.

I don't want to create a form with hidden fields and another "Submit" button
because it would be counter-intuitive to the user and kludgey.

From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 21 10:29:00 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:29:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGCECGCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>
References: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAKENGCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A5B0F.12571.36AE37E8@localhost>

> From: "John Pye" <john.pye at purplehouse.com>
> 
> I'd think about using another FTP program, given your tight timeline. Try
> LeechFTP or WS_FTP LE - they are both free and available from
> www.download.com

and think about giving the ISP a call as well... there may be other 
issues at play...

From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov 21 10:35:17 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:35:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>

I've recently been layed off and am considering going back to the world of
freelancing and contracting. In order to do that, though, I'll need to set
up my own health insurance. Anyone have any recommendations or personal
experience to share on that?

- amanda

"It's amazing -- you really can feel the love tonight."
http://gawow.com

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Tue Nov 21 10:36:48 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:36:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4DC@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

My boss just forwarded me a link to here:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001112.html
It's an article by Jacob Neilsen. I don't really have an opinion of him,
but from what I *have* read, it's contrary to my own feelings.

Now, he strikes it again.

Seems my boss is into Nielsen. Are there any other links of other articles
that are opposite this one?

Thx!

From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 21 10:40:17 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:40:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A5DAC.341.36B86A38@localhost>

> From: "A. Erickson" <amanda at gawow.com>
>
> I've recently been layed off and am considering going back to the world of
> freelancing and contracting. In order to do that, though, I'll need to set
> up my own health insurance. Anyone have any recommendations or personal
> experience to share on that?

many temp agencies and outsourced HR firms offer group plans... 
many organizations (the local art directors / communicators group 
has one) offer plans as well...

start with organizations with which you have membership already, 
then check ones you might wanna be part of (local WebGrrls-style 
chapters, etc.), and then check with the temp firms...

they work by enrolling lots of freelancers or independents under a 
parent corporation that does nothing but provide an umbrella to get 
access to these benefits at better rates with guaranteed numbers...

From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 21 10:52:37 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 21 10:52:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4DC@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A6080.7559.36C37734@localhost>

as far as using select menus for navigation, that is forbidden over 
here... they are very bad navigation elements and should not be 
used as such (i keep meaning to write an article on this) without a 
very good reason...

as for using menus in form elements, i will not use them for 
information that the user knows well... for instance, i always get e-
commerce clients who want to have a select menu for the state... i 
always fight them and end up making it a text field... i have found 
people type their state abbreviation more quickly than they select it 
from a menu... same thing with country... feeding a list of 50 states 
(or how many countries) with the requisite <option> tags is also 
page bloat that is unnecessary given how well users work without 
them...

there are other cases where select menus are great... anywhere 
the user is presented with a limited set of options that are not 
hardwired into their brain, and that do not require the user to see all 
options at once to make a selection...

> From: "Herzog, Ari" <Ari_Herzog at Instron.com>
>
> My boss just forwarded me a link to here:
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001112.html
> It's an article by Jacob Neilsen. I don't really have an opinion of him,
> but from what I *have* read, it's contrary to my own feelings.
> 
> Now, he strikes it again.
> 
> Seems my boss is into Nielsen. Are there any other links of other articles
> that are opposite this one?

From seth at sethbienek.com  Tue Nov 21 11:03:57 2000
From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:03:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001120170629.0180b0a8@alphashop.com>
Message-ID: <FEEILENNJJNPMEGLELDIAEGACPAA.seth@sethbienek.com>

Hey Judah,

> <tip type="ColdFusion" Title="Beware of forcing number values in CF">

Great tip!  I learned something today!

Let's say you have a numeric value that you always want to display as, oh,
at least 5 digits long.

For example, customer number 453 should be represented as number 00453, but
a longer customer number (we'll use 8675309 in this example) should not be
truncated.

ColdFusion includes a handy function for doing this.  NumberFormat() can do
all kinds of freaky stuff with your numbers, including forcing padding, for
example:

#NumberFormat(Session.UserID, "00000")#

Will pad our customer number just so, making it at least 5 digits with 0's
as placeholders.

</tip>

Thanks Judah!

Seth

------------------------------
Seth Bienek
Solutions Development Manager
Stonebridge Technologies, Inc.
972.455.7294 tel
972.404.9754 fax
------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Judah McAuley
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 7:20 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] SQL-What is quicker?
>
>
> At 10:59 AM 11/21/2000 +1000, you wrote:
> >Hi Gang,
> >
> >Scenario..Search on a criteria and then show 10 records per page.
> >
> >What would be quicker...
> >Selecting all the records that meet the criteria and then only
> show 10 at a
> >time i.e select all then show records 0-9..select all again then show
> >records 10-19 etc (using an if ()).
> >or
> >select records that meet criteria but use LIMIT i.e select all that meet
> >LIMIT 0,10....then select again but show LIMIT 10,10...etc (the
> first number
> >being the offset and the second being the number of records to return).
> >
> >I'm thinking that the second is quicker because it doesn't have
> to read the
> >whole table.  But is it less effective because it has to find
> the start and
> >end point each time? Or does it depend on the number of records in the
> >table?
>
> The second case would certainly decrease the amount of information pulled
> from the database, so each query would be faster.  However, if you have a
> fast machine and a relatively small amount of data being pulled, then the
> greatest overhead is actually in the opening/closing of the database
> connection.  In this situation, it may make more sense to read the whole
> recordset into a memory variable and then loop through the
> variable instead
> of opening new database connections.
>
> And in response to Seth's earlier CF Val() tip...
>
> <tip type="ColdFusion" Title="Beware of forcing number values in CF">
> Always be aware of your data types.  Val() assumes that your value can be
> converted to an integer.  If you are retrieving a number from a source
> (say, an identity column) then the number may be perfectly valid
> but larger
> than an INT and running the Val() function will not do what you expect.
> Example: If you have a value that is a Numeric 18,0 and it's 15
> digits long
> then Val(thatnumber) will not return the 15 digit number.
> </tip>
>
> Judah
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 11:14:29 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:14:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4DC@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEMODOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Herzog, Ari [Ari_Herzog at Instron.com] asked:

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

Good, IMO.

We use them on, um, four sites at the Clients' requests.

On one site, there's a single, long page with a number of cases cited.  We
started out having hyperlinks to bookmarks at the top of the page but this
was getting unwieldy so we changed to a drop-down menu which works fine - I
reckon - and takes up less space.

Another site only has a horizontal bar with the content below.  Again a
common menu bar include works very well.

Just my tuppenny-bit.

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard. H. Morris, Web Designers Limited
~~ http://www.web-designers.co.uk ~~
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me
          than a full frontal lobotomy"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Tue Nov 21 11:30:35 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:30:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP
Message-ID: <8025699E.005FE53F.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Note that this doesn't have to be a 'real' database if your site is
smallish and doesn't have heavy traffic loads.

You *could* use static text files as a repository, and again use
a record ID in the URL.

Note that for this, you *will* need some kind of concurrency control,
even if it's just file locking...

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
cc:

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP

Hi Joel,

(...and if your server can't --- buy a nice new one!   ;-)  ... just
kidding!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Morris [mailto:joelm at citycent.com]
Subject: [thelist] Silent Form in ASP

I
can't use the "GET" method (append the info the URL) because there is too
much information.

I don't want to create a form with hidden fields and another "Submit" button
because it would be counter-intuitive to the user and kludgey.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate
partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6NN where lists of the
partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate
partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all
contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK
firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Institute of Chartered
Accountants in England and Wales to carry on investment business.
PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide
PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which
it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material.  Any
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in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the
intended recipient is prohibited.   If you received this in error, please
contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Tue Nov 21 11:38:16 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:38:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699E.00609FA2.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Richard

Both examples could be solved using other methodologies - why not
use a hierarchical list on the first site (with bookmarks to each section)?
What's wrong with normal hyperlinks on the second? Why force users
to learn *your* way of doing things when they already know the 'underlined=
link => click on it' paradigm? This is pretty close to the core of HCI: don't
force
users to learn stuff specially for you (they won't).

That said, I have seen secondary/tertiary navigation with dropdowns
implemented fairly successfully - http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has links to
related stories using dropdowns. However, have a look at their
low-bandwidth version - they just use normal links.

Also, many people implement drop downs without a 'go' button, simply
using an onChange event to fire the user off. This has major usability
(what if you slip and let go by accident..?) and accessibility (relying on
client-side scripts alone to use the site is very inaccessible to many disabled
users).

Question: are they good because the client asked for them?
(you seem to be implying this...)

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:   Ari_Herzog at Instron.com

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

Herzog, Ari [Ari_Herzog at Instron.com] asked:

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

Good, IMO.

We use them on, um, four sites at the Clients' requests.

Another site only has a horizontal bar with the content below.  Again a
common menu bar include works very well.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From matthew.garrett at snet.net  Tue Nov 21 11:38:31 2000
From: matthew.garrett at snet.net (matthew garrett)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:38:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <B6401EA3.92F%matthew.garrett@snet.net>

One option that caters to the self-employed:
http://www.goldenrule.com/

I signed up a year too late, don't make the same (*$18,000*) mistake.

-Matt

> I've recently been layed off and am considering going back to the world of
> freelancing and contracting. In order to do that, though, I'll need to set
> up my own health insurance. Anyone have any recommendations or personal
> experience to share on that?
> 
> - amanda
>

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Tue Nov 21 11:53:28 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:53:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699E.0061F39B.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Ari

Sounds like you have a *good* boss - one who cares about users. Many
bosses are really clueless, and order designers to create abominations
like http://www.balthaser.com/

To be honest, I would suggest that Jakob's recommendations are a pretty good
default.

Follow what he suggests (unless you have a case-by-case justification)
and you'll get a usable site. Usable sites have a much more positive ROI
than unusable ones, and that's the aim of the game for most of us. Given
the choice between 'pretty' and 'usable' and I'll take 'usable' every single
time (exception: if you're running a personal or pure art-based site).

If you are producing justifications to ignore him, please bear in mind
that his work is not really based on how he feels about usability issues,
it's largely based on robust research.

Cheers
Martin

<tip type="Basic business sense for web developers">
Design with better Return on Investment = Better paid (and more) work for us.

Hurrah.
</tip>

<tip type="reading material for web design business sense">
     <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0120958104/martin043">
          Cost Justifying Usability
     </a>
</tip>

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
cc:

Subject:  [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

Now, he strikes it again.

Seems my boss is into Nielsen. Are there any other links of other articles
that are opposite this one

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From sam at sam-i-am.com  Tue Nov 21 11:59:10 2000
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam-I-Am)
Date: Tue Nov 21 11:59:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] Simple CSS question.
References: <NEELIJPJGLONEACJAECIAECNGAAA.eric@schwa.com>
Message-ID: <3A1AB7D4.7C2ECF2A@sam-i-am.com>

> >My advice: use specific stylesheets for specific browsers. More wisely, use
> >the "@import" rule, not understood by NN4.
> 
> And also not understood by IE5 Mac, which makes the @import technique much
> less useful.

?? Works for me:
http://www.sam-i-am.com/misc/testsuite/css/test_link_and_import.html

(server seems slow right now. I'm also mirroring to
http://www.dnai.com/~sfoster/testsuite/css/test_link_and_import.html )

Are you using 5.0b? that Beta had a _lot_ of stuff wrong with it.

Sam

From gb at inetwire.com  Tue Nov 21 12:19:57 2000
From: gb at inetwire.com (Gerd Baumann)
Date: Tue Nov 21 12:19:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] XML: recipe DTD
References: <20001121171445.7B8743F168@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3A1ABC71.D7D162E7@inetwire.com>

> Does anyone know where I can find a how-to on how to mark-up recipes
> with XML for real-world use?

Haven't tried it myself, but this is probably what you're looking for:
howwierd.tripod.com/thefiles.htm

Good luck,
Gerd

From meyer at up.edu  Tue Nov 21 12:59:08 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 12:59:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <3A1A6080.7559.36C37734@localhost>
References: <3A1A6080.7559.36C37734@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05001900b640731318a9@[192.220.215.231]>

>they are very bad navigation elements and should not be
>used as such

I'm curious as to the reasons (other than that someone might have 
javascript off... though that's probably reason enough...)

Seems to me like if they're well done, experienced users will get the 
hang of them quickly...(the ones w/o a go, which is yet another 
step....)

OTOH, I've noticed that as a user I tend to go for 
underlined-&-bright before I'll mess with a drop down... seems to 
take an extra brain step to think about using a drop down to navigate.

Anyway, much as I might love to hate Jakob, I'd probably prefer a 
Jakob-loving boss to a flaming-piranha-hit-counter-loving boss.

At least if your boss is 'into' Jakob, you have all the design rules 
for your job available on one handy website.

Erika

From meyer at up.edu  Tue Nov 21 13:07:07 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 13:07:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
References: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <a05001902b6407681e6f7@[192.220.215.231]>

I'd like to know when you find out more, but I remember seeing 
freelance insurance info (and other good info) on http://www.guru.com.

Another resource might be the Small Business Association,
http://www.sba.gov/
(why are government websites always so annoying?)
(actually, I've found the SBA less than helpful, myself....)

and for Oregon, you might check out the resources available from the 
Oregon Entrepeneur's Foundation.
http://www.oef.org/

good luck!

Erika

>I've recently been layed off and am considering going back to the world of
>freelancing and contracting. In order to do that, though, I'll need to set
>up my own health insurance. Anyone have any recommendations or personal
>experience to share on that?
>
>- amanda
>
>"It's amazing -- you really can feel the love tonight."
>http://gawow.com

From optima at hot.ee  Tue Nov 21 13:22:21 2000
From: optima at hot.ee (Lauri Vain)
Date: Tue Nov 21 13:22:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Printing a webpage?
Message-ID: <006e01c053f0$f93db080$15787ec2@koll>

Hello,
I have a problem. My client wants me to write a script that would show all the
products in the database (including the pictures, descriptions etc) on one page.
Easy so far!

The problem is that he wants the visitors to be able to print the page and it
should only have 5 products per page! If the item won't fit on a page then it
would be printed on the next page. I'm not aware that such a thing can be done
with HTML (HTML wasn't designed for printing text out, was it? ). As far as I
know, everything gets cut in half, including images and table cells. Putting
each item into a invisible table and printing it out with a printing it out
still cuts pictures and text to half and half of it will still be printed on the
next page.

So, got any suggestions, I'm totally out of ideas!

Yours,
Lauri

From jasonb at halstead-architects.com  Tue Nov 21 13:28:14 2000
From: jasonb at halstead-architects.com (Jason E. Burk)
Date: Tue Nov 21 13:28:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] Printing a webpage?
References: <006e01c053f0$f93db080$15787ec2@koll>
Message-ID: <3A1AF77D.44F21A4F@halstead-architects.com>

Lauri Vain wrote:

> I have a problem. My client wants me to write a script that would show all the
> products in the database (including the pictures, descriptions etc) on one page.
> Easy so far!

i think its called pdf format : )

just a thought -- jason
*************************************************
j a s o n  e . b u r k
http://www.bsu.edu/World2000/research/burk/
HALSTEAD|architects
www.halstead-architects.com
jasonb at halstead-architects.com
[ jdog at 020.co.uk ]
icq # | 33425254

From r937 at interlog.com  Tue Nov 21 14:02:28 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:02:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Printing a webpage?
Message-ID: <01c053f5$f876c4c0$0450149a@default>

>i think its called pdf format : )
>
>just a thought -- jason

and not a bad one, either

assuming you can produce the pdf output on the fly, e.g. from a product
search

then 5 products per pdf page, would that be possible?  how would you
control it if, say, one of the products had an exceptionally long
description?

(you can see where i'm heading with this, i'm thinking of accessing a an
article database where the description is a variable length)

if you could do "whole descriptions" that would be pretty neat

is there an adobe package that does this?  are there perhaps any custom cf
tags (i hope i hope) that can output pdf format?

in the meantime, lauri, you might try

1) wrapping products in <table>...</table> as some browsers do a page
break for a new table

2) using page-break-before and page-break-after
  http://blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/print/pbbefore.htm

rudy
r937.com

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Tue Nov 21 14:08:10 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:08:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] Converting PDF to HTM ??
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4F0@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

Is there any mechanism software available for converting
a PDF document to HTM ?

Thx

From mhessel at forwardconsulting.com  Tue Nov 21 14:12:01 2000
From: mhessel at forwardconsulting.com (Martha Hesselein)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:12:01 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <NGEOLKBKIJJMPANNKEOGMEFCDAAA.mhessel@forwardconsulting.com>

If you are in the Gulf Coast region of the U.S., try www.primehealth.org
They offer a plan for individuals/families.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of A. Erickson
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:39 AM
To: Thelist
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance

- amanda

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 14:13:02 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:13:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <8025699E.00609FA2.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMEENBDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com noted:

> -----Original Message-----
> Both examples could be solved using other methodologies - why not
> use a hierarchical list on the first site (with bookmarks to each
> section)?

In this instance, it was decided that the latest case summary should always
show on the page without scrolling and without having to load another page.

The site in question is http://www.adjudication.co.uk

> What's wrong with normal hyperlinks on the second?

It's a question of screen space again and a desire not to use the (cliched)
inverted L navigation. The 'usual' hyperlinks are at the bottom of the
pages.

> Why force users
> to learn *your* way of doing things when they already know the
> 'underlined=
> link => click on it' paradigm? This is pretty close to the core
> of HCI: don't
> force
> users to learn stuff specially for you (they won't).

It's nothing they haven't seen elsewhere.

> That said, I have seen secondary/tertiary navigation with dropdowns
> implemented fairly successfully - http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has links to
> related stories using dropdowns. However, have a look at their
> low-bandwidth version - they just use normal links.

And truly horrible the latter looks too! Seriously, there is a need for them
to provide a minimalist option and I try to code for speed, but in these
days of ADSL/cable and fast modems are we a dying breed? Most B2B scenarios
will soon involve high bandwidth - look at all the Flash sites - so that
diehards like Nielsen and others will be seen as the prophets of doom...

Sorry to be a heretic, but I think his site is the most unappealing one I've
ever seen!

> Also, many people implement drop downs without a 'go' button, simply
> using an onChange event to fire the user off. This has major usability
> (what if you slip and let go by accident..?)

True enough, and I'm guilty as charged in this respect.

> and accessibility (relying on
> client-side scripts alone to use the site is very inaccessible to
> many disabled
> users).

I think that's where defining the Client's user demographic is important:
should we spend more time (and money) on a Client site to make it
universally accessible for no gain to *them*?

> Question: are they good because the client asked for them?
> (you seem to be implying this...)

No: because they work for the sites in question.

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard H. Morris, Director, Web Designers Ltd
        http://www.web-designers.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Registered in England No 3506389
                  Registered Office:
3 Church Street Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0PH
                   Trading Address:
  4 Maden Close Wymondham Norfolk NR18 0UA
               T: +44 (0)1953 606158
               F: +44 (0)1953 606185
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

From one_webdude at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 14:33:37 2000
From: one_webdude at yahoo.com (Terry Fowler)
Date: Tue Nov 21 14:33:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Converting PDF to HTM ??
Message-ID: <20001121203343.10601.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com>

--- "Herzog, Ari" <Ari_Herzog at Instron.com> wrote:
> Is there any mechanism software available for
> converting
> a PDF document to HTM ?

Magellan - pdf to html

http://www.bcl-computers.com/pdf_solutions/magellan42.htm

Redwing - pdf to rtf, ascii, etc

http://www.datawatch.com/docs/products/redwing/index.html

HTH,

Terry Fowler

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

From optima at hot.ee  Tue Nov 21 15:43:20 2000
From: optima at hot.ee (Lauri Vain)
Date: Tue Nov 21 15:43:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] Printing a webpage?
References: <01c053f5$f876c4c0$0450149a@default>
Message-ID: <001c01c05404$aaaf6e40$65787ec2@koll>

Jason and Rudy,

> >i think its called pdf format : )
>
> and not a bad one, either

Yes, I could output PDF files on the fly (the entire site is PHP based and it
shouldn't be too hard). My client, however, doesn't want to use a solution that
requires additional software from the users side. Too bad :-(.

>  1) wrapping products in <table>...</table> as some browsers do a page
> break for a new table
>
>  2) using page-break-before and page-break-after
>   http://blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/print/pbbefore.htm

I'll go check those.

Yours sincerely,
Lauri V?in

From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov 21 15:53:38 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov 21 15:53:38 2000
Subject: [thelist] jfax vs. efax
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKGEOKDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>

Anyone use any online faxing sites? Right now I'm looking at jfax vs. efax
and not finding too many differences. The prices are similar, some of the
features are slightly different and the user interface at efax sucks but...
I'm not to sure which one to go for.

Any thoughts?

- amanda

<tip>
Try not to ever burn bridges. You never know when you'll be out of work and
needing all the friendly contacts you can have.
</tip>

"It's amazing -- you really can feel the love tonight."
http://gawow.com

From bread_man at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 16:02:03 2000
From: bread_man at hotmail.com (Adam Slesinger)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:02:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
Message-ID: <F161wRPQIWDO3hRDT6Z000013ad@hotmail.com>

Hey Web Gurus,

Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character code for "SM" 
(not "TM") and am having trouble finding it.  Does anybody know what it is, 
or where I could find out what it is?  Thanks!

adam
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From jaylard at equilon.com  Tue Nov 21 16:13:54 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:13:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CCEE@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

adam,

> Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character code for "SM" 
> (not "TM") and am having trouble finding it.  Does anybody know what it
is, 
> or where I could find out what it is?  Thanks!

How about <sup>SM</sup>?

hth,
James Aylard

From bread_man at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 16:18:00 2000
From: bread_man at hotmail.com (Adam Slesinger)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:18:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
Message-ID: <F170NSuMOcmqBERc8aE00001467@hotmail.com>

James,

I tried using that, but it bumps up the line above it, creating an ugly 
blank line in the middle of the paragraph...  I was hoping there was a code 
for the character...  Thanks!

adam

>From: "Aylard JA (James)" <jaylard at equilon.com>
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] SM character code
>Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:14:35 -0600
>
>adam,
>
> > Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character code for "SM"
> > (not "TM") and am having trouble finding it.  Does anybody know what it
>is,
> > or where I could find out what it is?  Thanks!
>
>How about <sup>SM</sup>?
>
>hth,
>James Aylard
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From Matthew.Walker at cdc.org.nz  Tue Nov 21 16:18:57 2000
From: Matthew.Walker at cdc.org.nz (Walker, Matthew)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:18:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
Message-ID: <15DDDB0AAC817245B37937D293D74EDF247ACA@ccoexc01>

> > Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character 
> code for "SM"

Thing with the ones that are hard to find is even if you do find the code
they're probably not supported / well supported also.

I remember implementing em dashes using the name (—) rather than the
number (— or something) on a site and the Mac owners of the site
complaining about the mysterious question marks dotted thru their pages. It
was real hard to explain exactly why they were there.

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Tue Nov 21 16:24:51 2000
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:24:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] urgent dreamweaver help needed
Message-ID: <v02140b0bb640a6348450@[10.11.1.143]>

It's hard for other people to help you with a connection problem. The best
bet is often to let other people try to connect to that server.

You mention that your connections to other sites work fine, and it's only
this one server that has a difference. That's a useful clue.

Another clue (for those of us online) would be whether you were never-ever
able to connect, or if you could connect yesterday (or from another
machine) but can't today.

(All of these qualifiers isolate different parts of the problem...
one-or-all-servers, one-or-all-times, one-or-all-machines, etc.)

The docs have a section on troubleshooting remote site setup, and that's
the first resource whenever connecting somewhere new... it lists all the
settable options and what they do. If the one server still acts differently
then checking in at that end is the next step.

From Ari_Herzog at Instron.com  Tue Nov 21 16:26:51 2000
From: Ari_Herzog at Instron.com (Herzog, Ari)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:26:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
Message-ID: <B06DC94BEC32D21197D800805FA6FB5F032CA4F1@us-can-exch-s1.instron.com>

Hmm. According to the massive table at http://www.bbsinc.com/iso8859.html
there is no such code.

In response to someone else's question on cross-browser compatibility,
go here: http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/iso8859/browser-report.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Slesinger [mailto:bread_man at hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 5:02 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] SM character code

Hey Web Gurus,

Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character code for "SM" 
(not "TM") and am having trouble finding it.  Does anybody know what it is, 
or where I could find out what it is?  Thanks!

adam
____________________________________________________________________________
_________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Tue Nov 21 16:27:06 2000
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:27:06 2000
Subject: [thelist] Printing a webpage?
Message-ID: <v02140b0cb640a728bdbf@[10.11.1.143]>

Actually, the Macromedia Flash Player is installed on far more machines
than the Acrobat plugin, and also offers the ability to print material that
is not on the screen... you can have one layout for the monitor, and
another optimized for 8.5x11 printout, without much increase in filesize.

From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov 21 16:35:42 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:35:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
In-Reply-To: <F170NSuMOcmqBERc8aE00001467@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKAEONDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>

I'm pretty sure there isn't a code. How about this:

<font size="-1"><sup>SM</sup></font>?

It's not perfect but I bet you could get it looking decent enough with css.

- amanda

> James,
> 
> I tried using that, but it bumps up the line above it, creating an ugly 
> blank line in the middle of the paragraph...  I was hoping there 
> was a code 
> for the character...  Thanks!
> 
> adam

-- snip --

> >How about <sup>SM</sup>?
> >
> >hth,
> >James Aylard
> >
> >---------------------------------------
> >For unsubscribe and other options, including
> >the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 
> __________________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : 
http://explorer.msn.com

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From pmeeks at email.msn.com  Tue Nov 21 16:47:04 2000
From: pmeeks at email.msn.com (Patricia Meeks)
Date: Tue Nov 21 16:47:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] NN6 Problems with PDF
References: <01c053f5$f876c4c0$0450149a@default> <001c01c05404$aaaf6e40$65787ec2@koll>
Message-ID: <001b01c0540d$30127d40$454d83d0@fe51t>

Those on the list who use PDF files and PDF forms may want to read this
article at PDFzone about some incompatibilities.

http://www.pdfzone.com/news/index.asp?storyid=224&pwu=11

Patricia Meeks
pmeeks at msn.com

From colin at u2i.com  Tue Nov 21 17:33:37 2000
From: colin at u2i.com (Colin Strasser)
Date: Tue Nov 21 17:33:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] jfax vs. efax
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKGEOKDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBKLCOCLOCDIKKLGEFMEFJCOAA.colin@u2i.com>

I recently evaluated the free offerings from these two and chose
to go with JFax for a couple reasons:

1.  It was recommended by a client.

2.  I receive my faxes in TIFF format, whereas efax uses a
proprietary .EFX format.

Potential efax advantages:

A.  JFax seems to have decided to diversify into a unified
messaging service rather than focus on doing one thing well.

B.  Efax has nice desktop integration tools, at least based on my
brief acquaintance with them at Kinkos.

Still, JFax assigned me a fax number within just five minutes of
signing up, and so far it has worked flawlessly.

Regards,

Colin Strasser
Managing Principal

Union Square Interactive
Strategic and Technical Consulting
v: 212.316.7616
f: 435.305.3030
http://www.u2i.com/

-----Original Message-----

Anyone use any online faxing sites? Right now I'm looking at jfax
vs. efax
and not finding too many differences. The prices are similar, some
of the
features are slightly different and the user interface at efax
sucks but...

From ronjourard at home.com  Tue Nov 21 17:44:33 2000
From: ronjourard at home.com (Ron Jourard)
Date: Tue Nov 21 17:44:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] screen resolution sniffing
References: <20001119180011.C56FF3F119@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <003c01c05415$fff58220$42842b18@etob1.on.wave.home.com>

I am building a 600 x 800 site that's also viewable at larger screen
resolutions.

Any opinions on javacript detecting whether visitors have their
resolution set at 480 x 640 and directing them to a smaller site? Any
comments on things to watch out for in implementation etc.?

Ron Jourard
Canada
www.defencelaw.com

From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 21 17:58:34 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 21 17:58:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] screen resolution sniffing
In-Reply-To: <003c01c05415$fff58220$42842b18@etob1.on.wave.home.com>
Message-ID: <3A1AC45E.21142.3849A407@localhost>

> From: "Ron Jourard" <ronjourard at home.com>
>
> I am building a 600 x 800 site that's also viewable at larger screen
> resolutions.

should i waste my time asking why you are targetting 800x600 as 
your minimum resolution?  client demand?  whimsy?  based on 
user data?  are you aware all the things you may sacrifice?

> Any opinions on javacript detecting whether visitors have their
> resolution set at 480 x 640 and directing them to a smaller site? Any
> comments on things to watch out for in implementation etc.?

i think sites like CNN do it right... make all content available in the 
first 600 and have the remaining 150px (or so) off-screen on the 
right... that way, while users may get annoyed, they at least won't 
be disregarded...

and you should have a method to allow non-JS browsers to 
manually get to the smaller size... that's assuming it's worth it to 
build another version... personally (and from experience), it seems 
easier to build a liquid site that compresses to 640x480....

some articles that may be useful (they have some decent links, 
too):

640 x 480 Isn't Dead Just Yet
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=275

Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part I
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2295

Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part II
http://www.evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=2297

Design to realistic window sizes
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=3359

hth...

From bekah at nightvisions.com  Tue Nov 21 18:16:10 2000
From: bekah at nightvisions.com (Rebekah Murphy)
Date: Tue Nov 21 18:16:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
References: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com> <a05001902b6407681e6f7@[192.220.215.231]>
Message-ID: <3A1B1048.2DB171BA@nightvisions.com>

Erika Meyer wrote:
> 
> I'd like to know when you find out more, but I remember seeing
> freelance insurance info (and other good info) on http://www.guru.com.

Also Aquent has group plans
http://www.aquent.com/financial/insurance.html You don't have to work
through them, but if you do they pay a good portion of the premium.

-Bekah

From bekah at nightvisions.com  Tue Nov 21 18:25:42 2000
From: bekah at nightvisions.com (Rebekah Murphy)
Date: Tue Nov 21 18:25:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
References: <15DDDB0AAC817245B37937D293D74EDF247ACA@ccoexc01>
Message-ID: <3A1B1287.BB643B36@nightvisions.com>

"Walker, Matthew" wrote:
> 
> > > Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character
> > code for "SM"
> 
> Thing with the ones that are hard to find is even if you do find the code
> they're probably not supported / well supported also.

This is the most complete list I have seen so far:
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/reference/special_characters/

"SM" doesn't seem to be listed. Also quite a few of the characters do
not show up in Mac Netscape 4.*

-Bekah

From colin at u2i.com  Tue Nov 21 18:36:52 2000
From: colin at u2i.com (Colin Strasser)
Date: Tue Nov 21 18:36:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] screen resolution sniffing
In-Reply-To: <3A1AC45E.21142.3849A407@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBKLCOCLOCDIKKLGEFMEFLCOAA.colin@u2i.com>

This seems like a good time to remind everyone of the mantra:  Let
the Web be the Web.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, you
need to read "A Dao of Web Design":

http://www.alistapart.com/stories/dao/index.html

And as long as you're there, you might enjoy wandering around the
whole site.  It's populated by kindred spirits to evolt.org, I
think.

Ciao,

Colin

--
Colin Strasser
Managing Principal

Union Square Interactive
Strategic and Technical Consulting
v: 212.316.7616
f: 435.305.3030
http://www.u2i.com/

-----Original Message-----

> From: "Ron Jourard" <ronjourard at home.com>
>
> I am building a 600 x 800 site that's also viewable at larger
screen
> resolutions.

should i waste my time asking why you are targetting 800x600 as
your minimum resolution?  client demand?  whimsy?  based on
user data?  are you aware all the things you may sacrifice?

From bmonchka at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 19:16:26 2000
From: bmonchka at hotmail.com (Barret A Monchka)
Date: Tue Nov 21 19:16:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] FLASH - right click menu
Message-ID: <F205ZMqA4dxfE9oh46Y00001697@hotmail.com>

Good Day,

I was on a web site somewhere, I cannot remember where, and the right 
click menu that is usually available on a flash animation was not available. 
  The right click menu has option such as zooming in on the animation.  Does 
anybody know how I could disable this right clicking on a flash animation?

Barret
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From bread_man at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 19:21:44 2000
From: bread_man at hotmail.com (Adam Slesinger)
Date: Tue Nov 21 19:21:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] SM character code
References: <15DDDB0AAC817245B37937D293D74EDF247ACA@ccoexc01> <3A1B1287.BB643B36@nightvisions.com>
Message-ID: <OE82LTrpwACkWHZqYW800000832@hotmail.com>

Thanks everyone for your input and sites to check out.  -adam

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rebekah Murphy" <bekah at nightvisions.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] SM character code

> "Walker, Matthew" wrote:
> >
> > > > Hmmm, can I stump you with this one?  I need the character
> > > code for "SM"
> >
> > Thing with the ones that are hard to find is even if you do find the
code
> > they're probably not supported / well supported also.
>
> This is the most complete list I have seen so far:
> http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/reference/special_characters/
>
> "SM" doesn't seem to be listed. Also quite a few of the characters do
> not show up in Mac Netscape 4.*
>
> -Bekah
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From lisa at koolfish.com  Tue Nov 21 19:57:57 2000
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew)
Date: Tue Nov 21 19:57:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] re: urgent dreamweaver help needed: what is passive ftp?
Message-ID: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAMENHCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>

After a sleepless night (I am on another time zone to most of you and you
were all asleep when I needed you!) I tried the first suggestion on the
digest to tick the passive ftp box and it worked. What is passive FTP? How
is it different to "normal" ftp and why would it make a difference any way?

I will be taking up the other suggestions though of getting another ftp
program after that panic, thanks guys as usual you have saved me from a
nervous breakdown.

<tip type="Photoshop">
You can use the keyboard to alter kerning or tracking in the type tool
dialog box.
(option-arrow keys) or (alt-arrow keys) will change the value by 20
(option-command-arrow keys) or (alt-control-arrow keys)will change the value
by 100
</tip>

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Tue Nov 21 20:23:21 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 20:23:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] re: urgent dreamweaver help needed: what is passive ftp?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAMENHCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <20001121212242-r01010600-9cd6c88f@24.18.139.115>

Lisa -- glad it worked for you, always happy to help anyone with "fish" in their domain name :^).

The Netscape web site has a pretty good explaination of passive FTP:

Usually, FTP involves opening a connection to an FTP server and then
accepting a connection from the FTP server back to your computer on
a randomly-chosen high-numbered TCP port; the connection from your
computer is called the "control" connection, and the one from the
FTP server is known as the "data" connection. All commands you send
and the FTP server's responses to those commands will go over the
control connection, but any data sent back (such as directory lists
or actual file data in either direction) will go over the data
connection.

However, this approach usually doesn't work through a firewall,
which typically doesn't let any connections come in at all. In this
case you might see your FTP connection appear to work, but then as
soon as you try to get some files or a directory list, the
connection will appear to hang.

Another method known as "PASV" ("passive ftp"), can be used to
retrieve files from an FTP site. This means it opens a control
connection to the FTP server, tells the FTP server to expect a
control connection to the FTP server, tells the FTP server to expect
a second connection, then opens the data connection to the FTP
server itself on a randomly-chosen high-numbered port. This works
with most firewalls unless your firewall retricts outgoing
connections on high-numbered ports too.

On 11/22/00 at 9:03 AM, lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew) wrote:

> After a sleepless night (I am on another time zone to most of you and you
> were all asleep when I needed you!) I tried the first suggestion on the
> digest to tick the passive ftp box and it worked. What is passive FTP? How
> is it different to "normal" ftp and why would it make a difference any way?
> 
> I will be taking up the other suggestions though of getting another ftp
> program after that panic, thanks guys as usual you have saved me from a
> nervous breakdown.
> 
> <tip type="Photoshop">
> You can use the keyboard to alter kerning or tracking in the type tool
> dialog box.
> (option-arrow keys) or (alt-arrow keys) will change the value by 20
> (option-command-arrow keys) or (alt-control-arrow keys)will change the value
> by 100
> </tip>

From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov 21 20:36:10 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov 21 20:36:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] FLASH - right click menu
In-Reply-To: <F205ZMqA4dxfE9oh46Y00001697@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKEPHDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>

The author of the flash movie can choose to disable it when they export.
That's probably what happened in this case.

- amanda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Barret A Monchka
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 5:17 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] FLASH - right click menu
>
>
> Good Day,
>
>    I was on a web site somewhere, I cannot remember where, and the right
> click menu that is usually available on a flash animation was not
> available.
>   The right click menu has option such as zooming in on the
> animation.  Does
> anybody know how I could disable this right clicking on a flash animation?
>
> Barret
> __________________________________________________________________
> ___________________
> Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From adrian at logo-logic.com  Tue Nov 21 22:24:15 2000
From: adrian at logo-logic.com (Adrian Fischer)
Date: Tue Nov 21 22:24:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] Rounding up a number
Message-ID: <00b301c0543c$07dbf340$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au>

Hi Guys,

I need to round a number up and make it available as a $variable in per?
I am dividing a number and it is the result that needs to rounded and made
available.  I can printf() to make it print rounded but making the rounded
number a variable is not happening for me.  No doubt very simple but I cant
seem to get a handle on it.

Thanks

Adrian Fischer

From dsmah at home.com  Tue Nov 21 22:42:55 2000
From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah)
Date: Tue Nov 21 22:42:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] Rounding up a number
In-Reply-To: <00b301c0543c$07dbf340$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au> from "Adrian Fischer" at Nov 22, 2000 02:23:49 PM
Message-ID: <200011220444.VAA02288@alice.monkeyland.ca>

If you are familiar with printf, try using sprintf.

I've run into a few cases where sprintf does not round properly.  In
that case, I write my own rounding function.

Dean

Adrian Fischer writes:

> I need to round a number up and make it available as a $variable in
> per?  I am dividing a number and it is the result that needs to
> rounded and made available.  I can printf() to make it print rounded
> but making the rounded number a variable is not happening for me.
> No doubt very simple but I cant seem to get a handle on it.

From data at data1701d.com  Wed Nov 22 00:17:53 2000
From: data at data1701d.com (Bill Mason)
Date: Wed Nov 22 00:17:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] speed checking
In-Reply-To: <011301c050b1$4de28c20$321df5cc@sigrid>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001117093447.00a3e0b0@netmail.home.com>

At 08:13 AM 11/17/00, you wrote:
>Anybody have or heard of a program to check the download speed on DSL and
>higher Speed lines?

It's not a program, but here's a good web site to use:

http://computingcentral.msn.com/topics/bandwidth/speedtest.asp

Bill Mason
data at data1701d.com
Dateline: Starfleet
http://www.data1701d.com
http://profile.guru.com/billmason
http://www.freeagent.com/billmason
http://bmason.freelancers.net

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 03:27:25 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 03:27:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699F.003382A5.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:   Martin P Burns/UK/MCS/PwC

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com noted:

>> Why force users
>> to learn *your* way of doing things when they already know the
>> 'underlined=
>> link => click on it' paradigm? This is pretty close to the core
>> of HCI: don't
>> force
>> users to learn stuff specially for you (they won't).

>It's nothing they haven't seen elsewhere.
But is it something which they have to *think* about? Do they *really*
know it (rather than having seen it) - the word I'm reaching here for is
'grok'. If users don't grok an interface paradigm, they won't use it
as effectively, and the communication/commercial aims won't be
realised to the same extent. That's the name of the game, surely?

>> That said, I have seen secondary/tertiary navigation with dropdowns
>> implemented fairly successfully - http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has links to
>> related stories using dropdowns. However, have a look at their
>> low-bandwidth version - they just use normal links.

>And truly horrible the latter looks too!
But highly usable. Pretty -v- usable contests nearly always end up in a
victory for 'usable' (although the BBC's high bandwidth version is a good
compromise). Why do you think that Yahoo gets the traffic it does? It's
butt-ugly, but highly usable. Google is even more task centred, and is
punching way above its (lack of incumbancy) weight.

>in these
>days of ADSL/cable and fast modems are we a dying breed?
Yes. Until we all have Tb capacity links, we will need to code for speed.

And bear in mind that fast modems aren't really that fast, cable modems
suffer contention ratio issues, and episodes like:
http://www.theage.com.au/frontpage/20001120/A64936-2000Nov20.html
continue to happen.

>Most B2B scenarios
>will soon involve high bandwidth

Source of figures?
Likely estimation of how many will fail through poor usability?

Take a look at http://www.work24.co.uk/ - try and register. That will tell
you why it's failing. They're getting loads and loads of hits to the front
page, but almost no registrations (ie conversions to customers).

>- look at all the Flash sites - so that
>diehards like Nielsen and others will be seen as the prophets of doom...

Quite the opposite actually. I see sites maturing into greater usability, or
failing. Immature businesses moving online tend to go for whizzy, as they're
interfaces demoed from laptops by self-indulgent designers, rather than
over a modem from an overworked network & server and assessed on
the basis of adding value to the business.

I really do see Flash moving towards the area it does best - complicated
animated interactivity - and away from replacing HTML in the areas which
HTML does extremely well.

>Sorry to be a heretic, but I think his site is the most unappealing one I've
>ever seen!

He doesn't claim to be a visual designer. But take a look at his traffic
figures... Positive ROI? I think so.

>> and accessibility (relying on
>> client-side scripts alone to use the site is very inaccessible to
>> many disabled
>> users).

>I think that's where defining the Client's user demographic is important:
>should we spend more time (and money) on a Client site to make it
>universally accessible for no gain to *them*?

If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other countries,
but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
accessible.

I would also point out that there are 10m people in the UK with registered
disabilities. A reasonable market if I'm not mistaken. Plus of course many
sites are designed with text which is (a) too small to start with (the 21 year
old
designer with good eyesight and a large monitor syndrome) and (b) unchangeable
through either the browser's own controls, or CSS functionality on the site (the
"I've confused web and print" syndrome). B2B in particular has a larger
proportion
of older users with worse sight. And as more massmarket consumer brands go,
the demographic they're addressing will naturally include more older people.

>> Question: are they good because the client asked for them?
>> (you seem to be implying this...)

> No: because they work for the sites in question.
Do they work because
1) you think they do?
2) the client thinks they're nice?
3) you've done Usability Testing as part of your development programme?
4) You've assessed the ROI of your design work?

Cheers
Martin

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 04:39:44 2000
From: george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk (George Dillon)
Date: Wed Nov 22 04:39:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001117093447.00a3e0b0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <000901c05470$8894d720$33012cc3@athlon800>

Found a couple of odd lines in my access.log... anyone know what they mean?

"OPTIONS ...
"GET /_vti_inf.html HTTP/1.1" 404 4506
"POST /_vti_bin/shtml.exe/_vti_rpc HTTP/1.1" 404 4506
"OPTIONS ...

TIA

George Dillon

From icongarden at icongarden.com  Wed Nov 22 05:43:09 2000
From: icongarden at icongarden.com (Jacob Stetser)
Date: Wed Nov 22 05:43:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?
Message-ID: <20001122114323.EZIY2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@localhost>

Someone attempted to open your site in FrontPage if I'm not mistaken :P

On Wednesday, November 22, 2000, at 05:38 AM, George Dillon wrote:

> Found a couple of odd lines in my access.log... anyone know what they mean? 
>  
> "OPTIONS ... 
> "GET /_vti_inf.html HTTP/1.1" 404 4506 
> "POST /_vti_bin/shtml.exe/_vti_rpc HTTP/1.1" 404 4506 
> "OPTIONS ... 
>  
> TIA 
>  
> George Dillon 
>  
>  
> --------------------------------------- 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including 
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: 
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !  
>  
>

From wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 05:57:11 2000
From: wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk (William Anderson)
Date: Wed Nov 22 05:57:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <E4FFD8CEE1C7D21188AC00105AAFD06CCD7C34@bd1_mail.wsatkins.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com
> [mailto:martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com]
> Sent: 22 November 2000 09:18
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
> 
> [huge snippage]
> 
> Do they work because
> 1) you think they do?
> 2) the client thinks they're nice?
> 3) you've done Usability Testing as part of your development 
> programme?
> 4) You've assessed the ROI of your design work?
> 
> Cheers
> Martin

Martin, can I hire you to berate our clients in future and tell them this
stuff?  I'm blue in the face from doing it!!  :)

-- 
William Anderson, WS Atkins IT Division Scotland
E-mail: wpanderson at wsatkins.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)141 332 7030 x2216 - Fax: +44 (0)141 331 2481

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From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 06:15:43 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 06:15:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699F.0042FD23.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

hehehe - it'd be at PwC rates, which isn't going to help the ROI calculation...

However, the Cost Justifying Usability book I mentioned yesterday:
(Amazon link at http://www.easyweb.co.uk/articles/library.html)
will help.

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
cc:

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com
> [mailto:martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com]
> Sent: 22 November 2000 09:18
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
>
> [huge snippage]
>
> Do they work because
> 1) you think they do?
> 2) the client thinks they're nice?
> 3) you've done Usability Testing as part of your development
> programme?
> 4) You've assessed the ROI of your design work?
>
> Cheers
> Martin

Martin, can I hire you to berate our clients in future and tell them this
stuff?  I'm blue in the face from doing it!!  :)

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From adrian at logo-logic.com  Wed Nov 22 07:01:39 2000
From: adrian at logo-logic.com (Adrian Fischer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 07:01:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] package or object reference
Message-ID: <022201c05484$44b06100$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au>

Here we go again....(but I am getting better)

Can someone explain what the package or object reference is in this error
message..

" Can't call method "fetchrow_array" without a package or object reference
at blah..."

this is how Im connection to the db an in the while {} I am doing more db
stuff, updates and delets depending on what is returned from the initial db
query.
my $db = &dbconnect;
my $dbh=$db->prepare("SELECT docInvoiceId,docInvoice FROM tblDocInvoice");
$dbh->execute();
while(($invoiceid,$invoice) = $dbh->fetchrow_array())
{do stuff}

So.....what is the object or package ? I have checked the manual but couldnt
find an answer that I understood.

Thanks yet again..

Adrian
Oh.. I sorted the printf() sprintf() thing...thanks

From carole at soulmedia.com  Wed Nov 22 07:02:13 2000
From: carole at soulmedia.com (Carole Guevin)
Date: Wed Nov 22 07:02:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] jfax vs. efax
In-Reply-To: <NDBBKLCOCLOCDIKKLGEFMEFJCOAA.colin@u2i.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLNBHILBEIODPIGDMKECLDLAA.carole@soulmedia.com>

Hi everyone,

I use Efax professional edition.  Great to have this number assigned whereas
you don't need a dedicated phone line, a machine and paper to waste because
of spamming advertising.  They have an anti-spam detection so I NEVER
receive any unwanted information.

Receive your faxes by email - great.  Professional version let's you OCR
edit and sign and send faxes.  Not perfect but truly a cheap and dependable
service.

Hope this helps,

carole guevin
  imagineering studio.................+
http://soulmedia.com
  new media resources........+
http://netdiver.net

From janice at discoverysystems.com  Wed Nov 22 07:09:44 2000
From: janice at discoverysystems.com (JTocher)
Date: Wed Nov 22 07:09:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
Message-ID: <B6412FF5.23AE%janice@discoverysystems.com>

Hello Listees...

This question is almost embarrassing because it should be so simple, but I
feel that something is just not getting through my head on using the 'em'
attributed for type size!

I am using a single stylesheet on a site and trying make it look the same
across platforms - the client does NOT want to use browser detect to check
platform and serve up a different sheet for Mac and Windows. They are using
a wysiwyg program to add content to templates and are concerned about
'production' routine having to 'link' a stylesheet to add content and
remember to 'unlink' the stylesheet before posting the page.

In all that I've read - and believe me - I've scoured the stylesheet
tutorials - the 'em' is supposed to 'read' the same size on Macs and Windows
- it most certainly does NOT! at least in the implementation I'm using. Am I
missing something? It seems using a tag <font size="2"> gives more
predictable results across browsers and platforms than the almighty 'em' but
how to do that in a stylesheet? Using that attribute in the stylesheet makes
the type 2 pts! and the 'small,' 'x-small,' is definitely not given the same
size...

Also, in using the 'em,' I had different results between IE and NN - for
example I have a table and within the table have several links (oh yeah, I'm
using different color links in different portions of the page). In order to
get the link text to display the color that I want in IE, I have to assign a
class both to the <a> tag AND add a <span class> to the link text... i.e.,
<a href class="foo"><span class="foo2">link</span></a>.

So, within this table, I start my information with a <p> tag - this seems to
be the start of nested 'ems' within Netscape as each <span> tag makes my
links get progressively smaller. (I'm assigning my foo2 class as .7em). This
is demonstrated at...

http://serversolutions.com/averra/lifeway_deliver/c_staff.asp

The only way around this seems to be to take the <p> tag out altogether.
This works ok, but curious as to WHY it did not work with the <p> tag.

Can anyone point my browser in the right direction to get an indepth
knowledge of how 'ems' interact with other elements on the page? I know they
are a 'relative' size and inherit the size of it's parent (presumably my <p>
tag), but is there some way to stop this inheritance? Also, some example
code of ems used in actual practice would be helpful to peruse.

tia for your insights! and have a Happy Thanksgiving all...
Janice

From john.pye at purplehouse.com  Wed Nov 22 07:50:03 2000
From: john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye)
Date: Wed Nov 22 07:50:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Remote DB synchronisation
Message-ID: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGKEDNCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>

Has anyone got a story to tell about keeping a remote (live website) Oracle
database syncronized with a local (admin website) database? Is it easy to
get record-by-record syncronization between two databases, or the relatively
curly probelm that it appears to me to be?

There would be multiple tables, some mostly being updated via the intranet
website, others being mostly updated via the live webstie. But if possible,
we'd want to allow all tables to work with two-way synchronization. The
occasional bit of manual intervention wouldn't be out of the question.

We're running Cold Fusion 4.5 and Oracle 8i on Solaris on our site.

www.creativebase.com ...any comments for me?

From lisa at koolfish.com  Wed Nov 22 07:59:02 2000
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew)
Date: Wed Nov 22 07:59:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] table cell troubles in Netscape
Message-ID: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAOENOCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>

Hi all, hope you are all faring better on the sleep front than I am lately.
Yet another niggly problem I can't get my head round.

I have a table that is split so that the outsides of the table form a
rectangle with a drop shadow and in the middle is live text with a bg
colour. When I view it in Netscape, for some reason I can't fathom out the
right hand column is adding more space so that there is a gap and the text
is not centred. I don't really want to make it a graphic as the first page
is rather graphic intensive and I have 2 more of these quotes to add.

Hard to explain so the page is here:

http://www.koolfish.com/jake/index.html

If you want to see what it should look like view in Explorer. I have the
table cells set to the correct width so why is Netscape creating the cell
larger than it should be?

The rest of the site is all over the place so please ignore :)
Thanks
Lisa.

From janice at discoverysystems.com  Wed Nov 22 08:24:37 2000
From: janice at discoverysystems.com (JTocher)
Date: Wed Nov 22 08:24:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] table cell troubles in Netscape
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAOENOCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <B6414181.23B6%janice@discoverysystems.com>

Hi Lisa,
I've also seen some weirdness in Netscape where it has a 'mind of it's own'
when creating tables - doesn't always seem to pay attention to the 'pixel
width' they're given!
Have you considered adding a 'spacer gif' in the interior to blow it out to
the size you want?

Just a thought...
Janice

btw - nice looking site!

on 11/22/00 9:05 AM, you wrote:

> Hi all, hope you are all faring better on the sleep front than I am lately.
> Yet another niggly problem I can't get my head round.
> 
> I have a table that is split so that the outsides of the table form a
> rectangle with a drop shadow and in the middle is live text with a bg
> colour. When I view it in Netscape, for some reason I can't fathom out the
> right hand column is adding more space so that there is a gap and the text
> is not centred. I don't really want to make it a graphic as the first page
> is rather graphic intensive and I have 2 more of these quotes to add.
> 
> Hard to explain so the page is here:
> 
> http://www.koolfish.com/jake/index.html
> 
> If you want to see what it should look like view in Explorer. I have the
> table cells set to the correct width so why is Netscape creating the cell
> larger than it should be?
> 
> The rest of the site is all over the place so please ignore :)
> Thanks
> Lisa.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From john.pye at purplehouse.com  Wed Nov 22 08:26:53 2000
From: john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye)
Date: Wed Nov 22 08:26:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <B6412FF5.23AE%janice@discoverysystems.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGKEDOCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>

> something is just not getting through my head
> on using the 'em' attributed for type size!

I have avoided using ems for the reason in
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/netscape4.html

This document suggests that you use px as the only reasonably universal type
measure. On my site however, I still found I was having problems with my
desired specification of line spacing of fonts with Netscape v4, so I used a
different style sheet just for Netscape viewers:

NETSCAPE VERSION:
body,P,li,div{ font: normal 8pt "Arial", Geneva, sans-serif;color: #666666}

THE REST VERSION:
body,P,li,div{ font: normal 10px/12px arial, Geneva, sans-serif;color:
#666666}

In Cold Fusion, I did the Netscape test by checking the HTTP_USER_AGENT
string for the presence of both 'Mozilla/4.0' AND 'Nav' substrings.

I don't know if it's bulletproof before version 4 browsers, which may be a
concern.

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Wed Nov 22 08:28:30 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 08:28:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] table cell troubles in Netscape
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAOENOCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <20001122092845-r01010600-2be5b301@209.61.127.211>

I added the NOWRAP attribute to the cell with your quote in it and that displays the same for me in NN 4.7 and IE 5.5 on a Mac...

On 11/22/00 at 9:05 PM, lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew) wrote:

From janice at discoverysystems.com  Wed Nov 22 08:38:41 2000
From: janice at discoverysystems.com (JTocher)
Date: Wed Nov 22 08:38:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] table cell troubles in Netscape
In-Reply-To: <20001122092845-r01010600-2be5b301@209.61.127.211>
Message-ID: <B64144CE.23B8%janice@discoverysystems.com>

Amazing Matthew! that works better than my spacer suggestion... the ever
on-going question is why would the 'nowrap' affect how the cell is
centered??? ah, but is there ever an explanation to fickle browsers?
Janice

on 11/22/00 9:28 AM, you wrote:

> I added the NOWRAP attribute to the cell with your quote in it and that
> displays the same for me in NN 4.7 and IE 5.5 on a Mac...
> 
> On 11/22/00 at 9:05 PM, lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew) wrote:
> 
>> Hi all, hope you are all faring better on the sleep front than I am lately.
>> Yet another niggly problem I can't get my head round.
>> 
>> I have a table that is split so that the outsides of the table form a
>> rectangle with a drop shadow and in the middle is live text with a bg
>> colour. When I view it in Netscape, for some reason I can't fathom out the
>> right hand column is adding more space so that there is a gap and the text
>> is not centred. I don't really want to make it a graphic as the first page
>> is rather graphic intensive and I have 2 more of these quotes to add.
>> 
>> Hard to explain so the page is here:
>> 
>> http://www.koolfish.com/jake/index.html
>> 
>> If you want to see what it should look like view in Explorer. I have the
>> table cells set to the correct width so why is Netscape creating the cell
>> larger than it should be?
>> 
>> The rest of the site is all over the place so please ignore :)
>> Thanks
>> Lisa.
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------
>> For unsubscribe and other options, including
>> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From janice at discoverysystems.com  Wed Nov 22 09:11:57 2000
From: janice at discoverysystems.com (JTocher)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:11:57 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGKEDOCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>
Message-ID: <B6414C9A.23BD%janice@discoverysystems.com>

Hey John,
Thanks for the tip. This brings up a question... per my client's request,
they want to 'link' a stylesheet to the main page for their content editors.
Will this linked stylesheet not take precedence over any stylesheet served
up based on javascript detection of the browser?
also, they wanted to NOT use the pt or px sizes so that the text will be
scaled according to the size selected by the user.
Janice

btw - thanks for passing on the read from richinstyle - looks to be a good
resource!

on 11/22/00 9:26 AM, you wrote:

>> something is just not getting through my head
>> on using the 'em' attributed for type size!
> 
> I have avoided using ems for the reason in
> http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/netscape4.html
> 
> This document suggests that you use px as the only reasonably universal type
> measure. On my site however, I still found I was having problems with my
> desired specification of line spacing of fonts with Netscape v4, so I used a
> different style sheet just for Netscape viewers:
> 
> NETSCAPE VERSION:
> body,P,li,div{ font: normal 8pt "Arial", Geneva, sans-serif;color: #666666}
> 
> THE REST VERSION:
> body,P,li,div{ font: normal 10px/12px arial, Geneva, sans-serif;color:
> #666666}
> 
> In Cold Fusion, I did the Netscape test by checking the HTTP_USER_AGENT
> string for the presence of both 'Mozilla/4.0' AND 'Nav' substrings.
> 
> I don't know if it's bulletproof before version 4 browsers, which may be a
> concern.
> 
> JP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 09:14:30 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:14:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] Remote DB synchronisation
Message-ID: <8025699F.005387FE.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

John

There are a number of products which will handle this (and more -
replicating records to different servers by ruleset).

If you've the cash, have a look at
http://www.interwoven.com/products/opendeploy
http://www.vignette.com/CDA/Site/0,2097,1-1-731-1191-741-1220,ff.html

Caveat: They're not cheap.

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  [thelist] Remote DB synchronisation

We're running Cold Fusion 4.5 and Oracle 8i on Solaris on our site.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From Mike.Hodgson at citywatch.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 09:25:00 2000
From: Mike.Hodgson at citywatch.co.uk (Mike.Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:25:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jump to entry in select box?
Message-ID: <000e01c05479$aaacc800$671e1782@Citywatch.co.uk>

Hi guys,

I'm trying to fumble my way round a bit of javascript and am wondering it's
possible to jump (using onClick in a checkbox) to a specific entry in a
pulldown list based on the *value* of the entry.  I know I can jump to a
specific entry in the options *array* using something like:

<form name="form1">
	<input type="checkbox"
onClick="document.form1.pulldown.options[2].selected=true">
	<select name="pulldown">
		<option value="">choose one...
		<option value="2">Mick
		<option value="37">Sean
		<option value="9">Chris
		<option value="1">Mark
	</select>
	<input type="submit">
</form>

which will jump to "Sean".  Is there a way I can jump to "Chris" by
referring to the number "9"???

I hope that made sense.
Cheers,
Mick
PS: a cc to my email address would be great as I'm on the digest.

?
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be
the views of Citywatch Ltd.

From john.pye at purplehouse.com  Wed Nov 22 09:38:35 2000
From: john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:38:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <B6414C9A.23BD%janice@discoverysystems.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGIEEBCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>

Hi Janice

> ..wanted to NOT use the pt or px sizes
> so that the text will be scaled according
> to the size selected by the user..

Perhaps you want to use % units. That RichInStyle doc seems to say that they
are OK, if used carefully. See section D in that document I quoted, here:
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/netscape4.html#units

But don't set relative sizes on BODY or DIV tags, see:
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/netscape4.html#font

It's painful stuff alright.

From rcamden at allaire.com  Wed Nov 22 09:44:00 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:44:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jump to entry in select box?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c05479$aaacc800$671e1782@Citywatch.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEICELEFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

This code will handle that.

I believe that addressing the form by name, document.Foo, is a 4.x only
convention. If this is the only form on the page, you can replace it with
document.forms[0], or, if it's the Xth form, use X-1 instead of 0.

<INPUT TYPE="checkbox" NAME="doit"
VALUE="Auto" onClick="for(i=0;i<document.Foo.MyDropDown.options.length;i++)
{ if(document.Foo.MyDropDown.options[i].value == 9)
document.Foo.MyDropDown.options[i].selected = i; }">Auto select something
<P>
<SELECT NAME="MyDropDown">

<OPTION VALUE="1">Luke
<OPTION VALUE="3">Darth
<OPTION VALUE=9>Han
</SELECT>

</FORM>

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Mike.Hodgson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 6:45 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Jump to entry in select box?
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm trying to fumble my way round a bit of javascript and am
> wondering it's
> possible to jump (using onClick in a checkbox) to a specific entry in a
> pulldown list based on the *value* of the entry.  I know I can jump to a
> specific entry in the options *array* using something like:
>
> <form name="form1">
> 	<input type="checkbox"
> onClick="document.form1.pulldown.options[2].selected=true">
> 	<select name="pulldown">
> 		<option value="">choose one...
> 		<option value="2">Mick
> 		<option value="37">Sean
> 		<option value="9">Chris
> 		<option value="1">Mark
> 	</select>
> 	<input type="submit">
> </form>
>
> which will jump to "Sean".  Is there a way I can jump to "Chris" by
> referring to the number "9"???
>
> I hope that made sense.
> Cheers,
> Mick
> PS: a cc to my email address would be great as I'm on the digest.
>
> ?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>       Visit our Internet site at http://www.citywatch.co.uk
> ?
> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
> sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be
> the views of Citywatch Ltd.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 09:47:50 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:47:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <B6414C9A.23BD%janice@discoverysystems.com>
References: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGKEDOCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>
Message-ID: <200011221547.eAMFlnh04388@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: JTocher <janice at discoverysystems.com>
>
> Thanks for the tip. This brings up a question... per my client's request,
> they want to 'link' a stylesheet to the main page for their content editors.
> Will this linked stylesheet not take precedence over any stylesheet served
> up based on javascript detection of the browser?

a linked stylesheet will be overridden by any styles set in the head 
of the document, and those will be overridden by any inline styles...

however, you can have more than one linked style sheet, or 
however you want to do it, as long as you know that classes of the 
same name (as well as ids and tags) get overridden in that 
manner...

> also, they wanted to NOT use the pt or px sizes so that the text will be
> scaled according to the size selected by the user.

did you try %?  at the very least, you should try % for line height, 
since using other units caused printing wonkiness in NN4.x (like 50 
pages worth of paper with one line of text each)...

i know there was a good thread about the problem with ems a 
couple months ago... anyone got those messages?

From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Wed Nov 22 09:48:14 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:48:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] What constitutes delivery?
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E644@SBS>

Hi folks,

does anyone have any good information regarding the definition of when a web
project is delivered? Our supplier needs to tighten up their definition and
I thought it would be good to ask list members how they define delivery in
their contracts.

.steve

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 09:57:30 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:57:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] What constitutes delivery?
In-Reply-To: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E644@SBS>
Message-ID: <200011221557.eAMFvUh04593@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: Steve Cook <sck at biljettpoolen.se>
> 
> does anyone have any good information regarding the definition of when a web
> project is delivered? Our supplier needs to tighten up their definition and
> I thought it would be good to ask list members how they define delivery in
> their contracts.

when all items in the scope have been completed (as defined in the 
scope), the project is complete...

delivery is when you have completed the scope, done any 
necessary installs or transfers (although this is usually part of the 
scope), and gotten client verification that data is received or install 
is complete...

at that point we have the client sign off on the project and we 
officially close it...

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Wed Nov 22 09:59:24 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 09:59:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] Jump to entry in select box?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c05479$aaacc800$671e1782@Citywatch.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20001122105939-r01010600-ab676567@209.61.127.211>

I'm not sure I understood exactly what you were asking, but the following will change the selectedIndex of your pulldown menu to the first option where the text (not the value) is the same as the value of the checkbox. The way this is written it will only change the value of the pulldown when the box is checked, not when it is unchecked. If you want it to change on checking or unchecking, remove the line that says:

if (checkbox.checked==true) {

and the last right curly bracket.

I would think something like this would be better done with radio buttons then checkboxes, but here ya go anyways:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
<!--

}
//-->
</SCRIPT>

<form name="form1">
    <input type="checkbox" onClick="whichOne(this)" value="Sean">
    <input type="checkbox" onClick="whichOne(this)" value="Mick">
    <input type="checkbox" onClick="whichOne(this)" value="Chris">
    <select name="pulldown">
        <option value="">choose one...
        <option value="2">Mick
        <option value="37">Sean
        <option value="9">Chris
        <option value="1">Mark
    </select>
    <input type="submit">
</form>

On 11/22/00 at 11:45 AM, Mike.Hodgson at citywatch.co.uk (Mike.Hodgson) wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm trying to fumble my way round a bit of javascript and am wondering it's
> possible to jump (using onClick in a checkbox) to a specific entry in a
> pulldown list based on the *value* of the entry.  I know I can jump to a
> specific entry in the options *array* using something like:
> 
> <form name="form1">
>   <input type="checkbox"
> onClick="document.form1.pulldown.options[2].selected=true">
>   <select name="pulldown">
>       <option value="">choose one...
>       <option value="2">Mick
>       <option value="37">Sean
>       <option value="9">Chris
>       <option value="1">Mark
>   </select>
>   <input type="submit">
> </form>
> 
> which will jump to "Sean".  Is there a way I can jump to "Chris" by
> referring to the number "9"???
> 
> I hope that made sense.
> Cheers,
> Mick
> PS: a cc to my email address would be great as I'm on the digest.

From ross at designcc.com  Wed Nov 22 10:01:11 2000
From: ross at designcc.com (J. Ross Dishner)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:01:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] What constitutes delivery?
In-Reply-To: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E644@SBS>
References: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E644@SBS>
Message-ID: <p04310105b6419d8982f4@[208.244.56.237]>

We typically define delivery as the point at which the client is 
delivered all pieces that were outlined in the original contract. 
That excludes any additional requirements identified after the fact. 
While we usually roll those items in during the project this 
definition has saved us when a client was unwilling to pay without 
first being delivered his additional piddlies (sp? def?).

>Hi folks,
>
>does anyone have any good information regarding the definition of when a web
>project is delivered? Our supplier needs to tighten up their definition and
>I thought it would be good to ask list members how they define delivery in
>their contracts.
>
>.steve
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 10:10:51 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:10:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <200011221547.eAMFlnh04388@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMEENPDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

aardvark [roselli at earthlink.net] suggested:

> -----Original Message-----
> > also, they wanted to NOT use the pt or px sizes so that the text will be
> > scaled according to the size selected by the user.
>
> did you try %?

Don't forget to check for percentages of percentages (of percentages...)
when specifying % font sizes if they're nested (such as BODY % and TABLE %,
P %, etc.)

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 10:10:58 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:10:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <8025699F.003382A5.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMEENODOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> >It's nothing they haven't seen elsewhere.
> But is it something which they have to *think* about? Do they *really*
> know it (rather than having seen it) - the word I'm reaching here for is
> 'grok'. If users don't grok an interface paradigm, they won't use it
> as effectively, and the communication/commercial aims won't be
> realised to the same extent. That's the name of the game, surely?

Apparently not, according to your employers: the pwcglobal.com web site has
*two* drop-down menus on the home page!!! Pot | Kettle | Black error?

> >And truly horrible the latter looks too!
> But highly usable.

No argument there.

> (although the BBC's high bandwidth version is a good
> compromise).

It's an excellent site for many, many reasons.

> Why do you think that Yahoo gets the traffic it does? It's
> butt-ugly, but highly usable.

In a word: content. I actually find it a complete pain in the bum to get to
anything useful on Yahoo! which is why I don't use it, preferring...

> Google is even more task centred, and is
> punching way above its (lack of incumbancy) weight.

... this one.

> >in these
> >days of ADSL/cable and fast modems are we a dying breed?
> Yes. Until we all have Tb capacity links, we will need to code for speed.

Which is what we do.

> Source of figures?

None whatsoever. Take a look at your company's comms. provision. 14.4k
modems? I doubt it somehow.

> Likely estimation of how many will fail through poor usability?

Not half as many as through a failure to actually plan a revenue/business
model. Sure, many will fail on usability issues but mainly in the B2C
environment.

> Take a look at http://www.work24.co.uk/ - try and register. That will tell
> you why it's failing. They're getting loads and loads of hits to the front
> page, but almost no registrations (ie conversions to customers).

I find those sorts of delays with many back-end driven sites.

> Quite the opposite actually. I see sites maturing into greater
> usability, or
> failing.

I fail to believe (in the B2B context especially) that we'll all be
reverting to basic HTML-only sites like the institutional/research sites
where content is king.

> Immature businesses moving online tend to go for whizzy,

Immature, like Ford, Jaguar, Audi, etc. ?

> I really do see Flash moving towards the area it does best - complicated
> animated interactivity - and away from replacing HTML in the areas which
> HTML does extremely well.

Agreed. I have yet to use Flash for a web site.

> He doesn't claim to be a visual designer. But take a look at his traffic
> figures... Positive ROI? I think so.

In much the same way as the motivational speaker types generate business...

> If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other
> countries,
> but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
> accessible.

<genuine question> I'm not aware of that legal requirement: could you give
details?

Of our Clients doing both B2B and B2C business, their sites are indeed coded
for accessibility.

> I would also point out that there are 10m people in the UK with registered
> disabilities. A reasonable market if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, although that again depends upon your Client demographic. I wonder
how many sites written by designers on this list are written to comply with
Bobby's usability/accessibility in mind?

Certainly my company site fails as does PWC's.

How many sites with DHTML navigation menus pass?

> > No: because they work for the sites in question.
> Do they work because
> 1) you think they do?

In the context of Client requirements, yes.

> 2) the client thinks they're nice?

Yes.

> 3) you've done Usability Testing as part of your development programme?

No, because the Client has not requested that service - usually because of
budgetary constraints. We don't run focus groups, usability testing
workshops, etc. unless the Client is willing to pay for them.  But then our
Client base does not want to spend many thousands on their sites either...

> 4) You've assessed the ROI of your design work?

Nope.  However, our Client base again is simply making the CVA against
traditional advertising rather than as a new medium.

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 10:50:59 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:50:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] What constitutes delivery?
Message-ID: <8025699F.005C411A.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Hi Steve

Could you expand a bit on what you mean?

I'm struggling to understand context beyond UAT

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
cc:

Subject:  [thelist] What constitutes delivery?

Hi folks,

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov 22 10:53:24 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:53:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7CF@gate.ti3.com>

The post is someone actually updating a file (or attempting to)

anything with _vti is an MS FrontPage Extensions directory/file. The FP
Extensions are server-side CGI's that the FP editor (and InterDev) use to
manage the site. A nice thing about the .NET stuff coming out is you don't
have to use them to update files =)

George, how do you update pages?

sgd
--
work: http://www.ti3.com/
non: http://thinksafely.org/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacob Stetser [mailto:icongarden at icongarden.com]
> > Found a couple of odd lines in my access.log... anyone know 
> what they mean? 
> >  
> > "OPTIONS ... 
> > "GET /_vti_inf.html HTTP/1.1" 404 4506 
> > "POST /_vti_bin/shtml.exe/_vti_rpc HTTP/1.1" 404 4506 
> > "OPTIONS ... 
> >

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 10:58:42 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 10:58:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMEENODOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
References: <8025699F.003382A5.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: "Richard H. Morris" <richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk>
[...]
> > 'grok'. If users don't grok an interface paradigm, they won't use it
> > as effectively, and the communication/commercial aims won't be
> > realised to the same extent. That's the name of the game, surely?
> 
> Apparently not, according to your employers: the pwcglobal.com web site has
> *two* drop-down menus on the home page!!! Pot | Kettle | Black error?

you're assuming he has any control over that company's site... i 
would say he doesn't... look at the crap they auotmatically append 
to his posts, that's not a company that understands the medium... 
martin, OTOH, does understand the medium, and much better than 
his (new) employers...

> > Why do you think that Yahoo gets the traffic it does? It's
> > butt-ugly, but highly usable.
> 
> In a word: content. I actually find it a complete pain in the bum to get to
> anything useful on Yahoo! which is why I don't use it, preferring...

i only use it, and google, for searching only, so both are great for 
me... i've learned to tune out all the portal crap...

> > Likely estimation of how many will fail through poor usability?
> 
> Not half as many as through a failure to actually plan a revenue/business
> model. Sure, many will fail on usability issues but mainly in the B2C
> environment.

yes, but i think companies like boo.com are a perfect example of 
how shortsightedness on the UI end as well as the business end 
are both equally as dangerous... turn away customers and you turn 
away *all* sources of revenue...

> > Take a look at http://www.work24.co.uk/ - try and register. That will tell
> > you why it's failing. They're getting loads and loads of hits to the front
> > page, but almost no registrations (ie conversions to customers).
> 
> I find those sorts of delays with many back-end driven sites.

i actually have some familiarity with this site... trust me, the 
backend is the least broken thing on this site... the site as a whole 
is horribly lacking in any usability testing, or even browser testing... 
it's actually in the hall of shame over here when i train new folks...

> > Quite the opposite actually. I see sites maturing into greater
> > usability, or failing.
> 
> I fail to believe (in the B2B context especially) that we'll all be
> reverting to basic HTML-only sites like the institutional/research sites
> where content is king.

for B2B clients, i've found that content *is* king... anything that 
slows the transfer of information (everything from EDI to online 
sales tools) has proven to be costly...

> > Immature businesses moving online tend to go for whizzy,
> 
> Immature, like Ford, Jaguar, Audi, etc. ?

immature developers... that would be more accurate... those 
companies don't understand the medium, and as such are 
immature in that medium/market and hire developers who aren't 
seasoned...

> > He doesn't claim to be a visual designer. But take a look at his traffic
> > figures... Positive ROI? I think so.
> 
> In much the same way as the motivational speaker types generate business...

LOL... that's a good one... seriously, though, if he *didn't* make a 
site that is emminently accessible, we'd blast him... so instead it's 
got no eye candy...

> > If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other
> > countries,
> > but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
> > accessible.
> 
> <genuine question> I'm not aware of that legal requirement: could you give
> details?

are you in the US?
Section 508 of the Workforce Investment Act, enacted on August 
7, 1998
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/508/508law.html

> Of our Clients doing both B2B and B2C business, their sites are indeed coded
> for accessibility.

accesskeys?  full alt attributes?  no image maps or frames?  
validated HTML and CSS?

> > I would also point out that there are 10m people in the UK with registered
> > disabilities. A reasonable market if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Indeed, although that again depends upon your Client demographic. I wonder
> how many sites written by designers on this list are written to comply with
> Bobby's usability/accessibility in mind?

all mine... all martin's... there are a few others who are very 
particular about that... as well as the three levels of WAI 
compliance...

> How many sites with DHTML navigation menus pass?

um, none...

> > 3) you've done Usability Testing as part of your development programme?
> 
> No, because the Client has not requested that service - usually because of
> budgetary constraints. We don't run focus groups, usability testing
> workshops, etc. unless the Client is willing to pay for them.  But then our
> Client base does not want to spend many thousands on their sites either...

i think once you've got a handle on how to build accessible sites 
from the start, and experience doing them, building them that way 
is no extra cost to the client... no, you can't do full-bore testing 
with focus groups, but in our case, all of our sites are accessible 
unless the client requests otherwise... even those really low-budget 
ones...

From jamie at bayou.com  Wed Nov 22 11:07:29 2000
From: jamie at bayou.com (Jamie Madden)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:07:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122110626.00e73b80@mail.bayou.com>

If you evolutionary types have a minute could you look over this site for 
me?  It's suppose to go live today and I just wanted a little feedback on 
the design, navigability, easy of use, etc.  Any comments, good or bad, are 
welcome.  Thanks guys.

jamie

From dbailey2 at healthaxis.com  Wed Nov 22 11:08:53 2000
From: dbailey2 at healthaxis.com (Bailey, Dan)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:08:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <7171306544DBD31195B900D0B7222A4EE34861@haxcre00.healthaxis.com>

Howabout a URL?  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie Madden [mailto:jamie at bayou.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 12:09 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look

jamie

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From john at userfrenzy.com  Wed Nov 22 11:08:59 2000
From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:08:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122110626.00e73b80@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOJCJALIILCCOOOELHCEPJCHAA.john@userfrenzy.com>

What site?

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 7209 4117       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Jamie Madden
> Sent: 22 November 2000 17:09
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
>
>
> If you evolutionary types have a minute could you look over this site for
> me?  It's suppose to go live today and I just wanted a little feedback on
> the design, navigability, easy of use, etc.  Any comments, good
> or bad, are
> welcome.  Thanks guys.
>
> jamie
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From jamie at bayou.com  Wed Nov 22 11:09:26 2000
From: jamie at bayou.com (Jamie Madden)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:09:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122111003.00e73570@mail.bayou.com>

Damn it, I hate it when that happens.  Here's the URL.

http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html

jamie

From Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov  Wed Nov 22 11:09:43 2000
From: Kathleen.Howell-1 at ksc.nasa.gov (Howell, Katie)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:09:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <01A056931BA6D011AE630000F84A80120594E0A0@kscmbs41.ksc.nasa.gov>

URL please?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie Madden [mailto:jamie at bayou.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 12:09 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look

jamie

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov 22 11:10:19 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:10:19 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7D0@gate.ti3.com>

apparently only those of us that have evolved to clairvoyance can look ;)

(URL, please?)

sgd
--
work: http://www.ti3.com/
non: http://thinksafely.org/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Madden [mailto:jamie at bayou.com]
> 
> If you evolutionary types have a minute could you look over 
> this site for 
> me?  It's suppose to go live today and I just wanted a little

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 11:10:53 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:10:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699F.005DC290.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Please respond to richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:   Martin P Burns/UK/MCS/PwC

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
>> If users don't grok an interface paradigm, they won't use it
>> as effectively, and the communication/commercial aims won't be
>> realised to the same extent. That's the name of the game, surely?

>Apparently not, according to your employers: the pwcglobal.com web site has
>*two* drop-down menus on the home page!!! Pot | Kettle | Black error?

Absolutely. I'm not involved in the design of our site (I'm a consultant)

>> Why do you think that Yahoo gets the traffic it does? It's
>> butt-ugly, but highly usable.

>In a word: content. I actually find it a complete pain in the bum to get to
>anything useful on Yahoo! which is why I don't use it, preferring...

>> Google is even more task centred, and is
>> punching way above its (lack of incumbancy) weight.

>... this one.
ie you prefer the site with the greater usability.

>> Source of figures?

>None whatsoever. Take a look at your company's comms. provision. 14.4k
>modems? I doubt it somehow.

Do I get 56k bandwidth on a 56k modem? Rarely. Do I get 512k bandwidth
on a cable modem. Almost never.

btw, my question was about whether sites will become more whizzy, not whether
I have a 14.4k modem

>> Likely estimation of how many will fail through poor usability?

>Not half as many as through a failure to actually plan a revenue/business
>model.
True, but that's no reason to fail the rest of them.

>Sure, many will fail on usability issues but mainly in the B2C
>environment.
Doubt that - I think poor usability is more significant in B2B where time
really is money. B2Bs tend to have better business models too.

>> Take a look at http://www.work24.co.uk/ - try and register. That will tell
>> you why it's failing. They're getting loads and loads of hits to the front
>> page, but almost no registrations (ie conversions to customers).

>I find those sorts of delays with many back-end driven sites.
The problem (and I ran the research) is actually with the usability. Speed
is one element of that, but by no means the most significant one.

>> Quite the opposite actually. I see sites maturing into greater
>> usability, or
>> failing.

>I fail to believe (in the B2B context especially) that we'll all be
>reverting to basic HTML-only sites like the institutional/research sites
>where content is king.
Usability is not a synonym for 'no design'. Take a look at
Jeff Z's site (http://www.zeldman.com/) - highly usable. Take a look
at http://www.open.gov.uk - highly usable, standards compliant *and*
accessible. Worst case - take a look at my site (http://www.easyweb.co.uk/) -
usable and not exactly Nielsen-ugly.

>> Immature businesses moving online tend to go for whizzy,
>Immature, like Ford, Jaguar, Audi, etc. ?
In web terms, yes. Read back a few days to Bob's post about Jaguar.
Audi's is much better.

And it's whizziness for the sake of whizziness (and winning awards for
the designers) which causes the most problems. Whizziness because
it adds value is a whole other ballgame.

>> I really do see Flash moving towards the area it does best - complicated
>> animated interactivity - and away from replacing HTML in the areas which
>> HTML does extremely well.

>Agreed. I have yet to use Flash for a web site.
I used it for parts of http://www.rbs.co.uk/archives/memorybank/ (quoting
URL from memory), where it added value (and OK, one menu cos we
were requiring users to have it to view the interactive stuff)(

>> If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other
>> countries,
>> but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
>> accessible.

><genuine question> I'm not aware of that legal requirement: could you give
>details?
1995 Disability Discrimination Act: http://www.disability.gov.uk/
the same legislation which makes banks/supermarkets install ramps
etc. There's no exemption for web sites - current legal thinking is that
Level A conformance to the W3C WAI guidelines will satisfy the
minimum requirements.

>> I would also point out that there are 10m people in the UK with registered
>> disabilities. A reasonable market if I'm not mistaken.

>Indeed, although that again depends upon your Client demographic. I wonder
>how many sites written by designers on this list are written to comply with
>Bobby's usability/accessibility in mind?
Not enough, even on an experimental basis

>Certainly my company site fails as does PWC's.
+1 on that

> How many sites with DHTML navigation menus pass?
Depends on how it works without DHTML

Cheers
Martin

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From jamie at bayou.com  Wed Nov 22 11:14:12 2000
From: jamie at bayou.com (Jamie Madden)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:14:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122110626.00e73b80@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122111459.00e72100@mail.bayou.com>

Damn It, I hate it when that happens.  Here's the URL.

http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html

jamie

At 11:08 AM 11/22/00 -0600, you wrote:
>If you evolutionary types have a minute could you look over this site for 
>me?  It's suppose to go live today and I just wanted a little feedback on 
>the design, navigability, easy of use, etc.  Any comments, good or bad, 
>are welcome.  Thanks guys.
>
>jamie
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From cewing at mooremedical.com  Wed Nov 22 11:16:26 2000
From: cewing at mooremedical.com (Ewing, Christopher)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:16:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <017B77D20B91D31199400008C70AE705E30E52@MAILSERV1>

Holy Information Overload Batman!

It strikes me as being a "portal" site on steroids.  It's trying to
accomplish a lot but is doing too much at once.

Also the logo is nice, but strikes me as being too large, creating the gap
of "gray" space in the middle of the header area.

Those are my quick comments

Christopher Ewing
Internet Architect
Moore Medical
www.mooremedical.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie Madden [mailto:jamie at bayou.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 12:11 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look

Damn it, I hate it when that happens.  Here's the URL.

http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html

jamie

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 11:36:04 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:36:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122111003.00e73570@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <200011221736.eAMHa3h07027@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: Jamie Madden <jamie at bayou.com>
> 
> http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html

wow... i found a <blink>...

yeah, ok, it's not such a bad use, but i'd use bold or italic, or 
another color for the font or cell, but that's just me...

this is gonna be real short...

lotta stuff at the top, but i'll give you credit, it fits in a 640x480, and 
the search and calendar are above the fold...

stigma of portal layout, but you do it pretty well... for some reason, 
though, the columns aren't as discrete as one would expect...

i'm ignoring the right column... my brain says it's just ad space... 
the left column comes across as generic portal stuff (news, 
weather, calendars, stocks, etc)... so my brain really only sees the 
center...

i don't know what relationship the light blue buttons have, but are 
those the only sections of the site?  it appears you're an ISP, but 
otherwise i'm having trouble figuring out what i can do at this site... 
i can get my news elsewhere...

the black text in 'pigskin picks' overlaps the image, making the 
leftmost characters impossible to read... strange wrapping for the 
kiwanis raffle...

games?

anyway, more shoveling to do...

From matthew at natuzzi.com  Wed Nov 22 11:41:05 2000
From: matthew at natuzzi.com (Watkins Matthew)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:41:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
Message-ID: <A7DB784F653FD311BBFB00500435FA9C01280F08@mail>

Hello Jamie,

My first comment is that you could organise the use of space a bit better. 
Perhaps remove that extra grey realestate in the top middle. Putting the
serach bar on one line would reduce the large white spaces on either side.

cheers

Matthew

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamie Madden [mailto:jamie at bayou.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 6:11 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
> 
> 
> Damn it, I hate it when that happens.  Here's the URL.
> 
> http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html
> 
> jamie
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
>

From meyer at up.edu  Wed Nov 22 11:50:49 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 11:50:49 2000
Subject: Accessibility laws (was RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?)
In-Reply-To: <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>
References: <8025699F.003382A5.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
 <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <a05001906b641b5967909@[192.220.215.231]>

My "not a lawyer" understanding is that at this point in time, 
Section 508 applies SPECIFICALLY to "Federal Departments and 
Agencies."

Regarding access of public places in the US, I think it is the 
Americans with Disabilities Act which is of consideration.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm

In a nutshell:

"The ADA prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in 
employment, State and local government, public accommodations, 
commercial facilities, transportation, and telecommunications."
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/cguide.htm

Erika

>  > > If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other
>  > > countries,
>  > > but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
>>  > accessible.
>  >
>>  <genuine question> I'm not aware of that legal requirement: could you give
>>  details?
>
>are you in the US?
>Section 508 of the Workforce Investment Act, enacted on August
>7, 1998
>http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/508/508law.html
>

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 12:09:19 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:09:19 2000
Subject: Accessibility laws (was RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?)
In-Reply-To: <a05001906b641b5967909@[192.220.215.231]>
References: <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <200011221809.eAMI9Ih07755@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: Erika Meyer <meyer at up.edu>
>
> My "not a lawyer" understanding is that at this point in time, 
> Section 508 applies SPECIFICALLY to "Federal Departments and 
> Agencies."

that is absolutely correct... it also impacts organizations that do 
business with the federal government, and based on some other 
stuff i've read, will most likely cascade to state governments as 
well...

> Regarding access of public places in the US, I think it is the 
> Americans with Disabilities Act which is of consideration.
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm

yep, this is the one more likely to affect businesses...

i cited section 508 because it's on the books and is clearly aimed 
at web sites... there's still no case law to suggest how much it will 
impact people, let alone the private sector, but why not plan ahead?

anybody remember how much it cost IBM to make the olympics
site accessible?  when much of it was alt attributes that could
have been coded in up-front...

i should have framed it more effectively, but i was posting 
legislation clearly aimed at us as developers... but hey, i think i'm 
the only local guy who bids on city and county gigs and even 
knows this law is on the books...

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 12:11:47 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:11:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEOEDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

aardvark [roselli at earthlink.net] noted:

> -----Original Message-----
> > Apparently not, according to your employers: the pwcglobal.com
> web site has
> > *two* drop-down menus on the home page!!! Pot | Kettle | Black error?
>
> you're assuming he has any control over that company's site... i
> would say he doesn't...

I'm *sure* he doesn't: his own site is very much designed and coded for
usability, whereas PWC's is the usual megacorp type.

> look at the crap they auotmatically append
> to his posts, that's not a company that understands the medium...

Lawyer led...

> martin, OTOH, does understand the medium, and much better than
> his (new) employers...

Absolutely.

> i only use it, and google, for searching only, so both are great for
> me... i've learned to tune out all the portal crap...

Me too.

> yes, but i think companies like boo.com are a perfect example of
> how shortsightedness on the UI end as well as the business end
> are both equally as dangerous... turn away customers and you turn
> away *all* sources of revenue...

Quite.

> > > He doesn't claim to be a visual designer. But take a look at
> his traffic
> > > figures... Positive ROI? I think so.
> >
> > In much the same way as the motivational speaker types generate
> business...
>
> LOL... that's a good one... seriously, though, if he *didn't* make a
> site that is emminently accessible, we'd blast him... so instead it's
> got no eye candy...

And it's a case of horses for courses. He's damned if he does make a
visually-appealing site and damned if he doesn't.

> are you in the US?

No, UK.

> Section 508 of the Workforce Investment Act, enacted on August
> 7, 1998
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/508/508law.html

I am aware of the US edict (although not conversant with it).

> accesskeys?  full alt attributes?  no image maps or frames?
> validated HTML and CSS?

Got me there: the ones I'm thinking of have fixed point or pixel sizes as
they were written while I was  writing CSS for layout control.

> all mine... all martin's... there are a few others who are very
> particular about that... as well as the three levels of WAI
> compliance...

But again, not the major corporates. Saatchi (IIRC) did a web site for a UK
law firm which was a triumph of style over function to the extent that if
you didn't have fast access or had some disability you couldn't get to any
content at all.

> > How many sites with DHTML navigation menus pass?
>
> um, none...

Quite.

> i think once you've got a handle on how to build accessible sites
> from the start, and experience doing them, building them that way
> is no extra cost to the client... no, you can't do full-bore testing
> with focus groups, but in our case, all of our sites are accessible
> unless the client requests otherwise... even those really low-budget
> ones...

In many ways, the low-budget ones seem to be the most compliant anyway!

Wasn't this all about drop-down menus once? ~;0)

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 12:11:50 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:11:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <8025699F.005DC290.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMOEOEDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Martin Burns wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> Absolutely. I'm not involved in the design of our site (I'm a consultant)

I didn't think for a minute that you were ~:0)

> >... this one.
> ie you prefer the site with the greater usability.

..and speed of searching, as it happens.

> btw, my question was about whether sites will become more whizzy,
> not whether
> I have a 14.4k modem

And my response was about the current and future bandwidth available to the
corporates.

> Usability is not a synonym for 'no design'. Take a look at
> Jeff Z's site (http://www.zeldman.com/) - highly usable.

And visually appealing: one of my favourite sites.

> Take a look
> at http://www.open.gov.uk - highly usable, standards compliant *and*
> accessible.

And better, IIRC, than their first attempts at a web site. It's coming along
in leaps and bounds.

> Worst case - take a look at my site
> (http://www.easyweb.co.uk/) -
> usable and not exactly Nielsen-ugly.

Agreed. "Minimalist", I reckon ~;0)

> >Immature, like Ford, Jaguar, Audi, etc. ?
> In web terms, yes. Read back a few days to Bob's post about Jaguar.

I remember it well. The site didn't stop me from registering though ~:0)

> >Agreed. I have yet to use Flash for a web site.
> I used it for parts of http://www.rbs.co.uk/archives/memorybank/ (quoting
> URL from memory), where it added value (and OK, one menu cos we
> were requiring users to have it to view the interactive stuff)(

Would that others didn't follow the lead and add flash where it does add
value. What's the point of a whizbang Flash intro page that tells you
nothing other than "Click here to enter" ?

> >> If the client is providing a public service in the UK (also other
> >> countries,
> >> but the UK is the area I know best) then they're legally bound to be
> >> accessible.
>
> ><genuine question> I'm not aware of that legal requirement:
> could you give
> >details?
> 1995 Disability Discrimination Act: http://www.disability.gov.uk/
> the same legislation which makes banks/supermarkets install ramps
> etc. There's no exemption for web sites - current legal thinking is that
> Level A conformance to the W3C WAI guidelines will satisfy the
> minimum requirements.

I'm aware of the physical access provisions to premises and physical sites
and have been involved in the consultation process (to a limited extent
through business law committees) on the roll-out provisions in relation to
offices and premises and the like with the consequent alterations to
building envelopes.

I can't see how that translates into a legal requirement for disabled access
to a web site though.

From jamie at bayou.com  Wed Nov 22 12:12:40 2000
From: jamie at bayou.com (Jamie Madden)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:12:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122111003.00e73570@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122120420.00e7edd0@mail.bayou.com>

Ok, I fixed the blink in the calendar.  I know, it bugged me too but I 
couldn't think of another way.  I've bolded it instead now.  I'm gonna work 
on adding some more space between sections.  No one has to tell me there's 
too much information but it is for an ISP that I think finally has seen 
that the days of the paid dialup are almost over and they're trying to 
build a regional portal so as to supplement income with banner 
advertisement.  Will it work?  Who knows, but these are the things they 
want to have on the page.  I'm gonna try realigning the section titles left 
to aid visibility.

I've got a question about right side advertising.  I've seen a few sites 
the are putting banner ads down the right side of a page and letting the 
content fill 640x480 but you have to scroll to see the ads.  800x600 and up 
gets it all.  I understand how to do this but I was wondering if anyone 
else had noticed this trend and if anyone had any comments on it.  It 
certainly would allow me to spread things out a little more.  16% of my 
current visitors are running in the vicinity of 640x480.  800x600 is at 57% 
and eveything else is up from there.  Any suggestions?

jamie

At 11:10 AM 11/22/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Damn it, I hate it when that happens.  Here's the URL.
>
>http://www.bayou.com/index_new.html
>
>jamie
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us  Wed Nov 22 12:21:11 2000
From: McCreath_David at xmail.asd.k12.ak.us (McCreath_David)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:21:11 2000
Subject: Accessibility laws (was RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad
	?)
Message-ID: <9627DBCB3063D311BC4B00902785C55F016021E1@EXPO1>

>> My "not a lawyer" understanding is that at this point in time, 
>> Section 508 applies SPECIFICALLY to "Federal Departments and 
>> Agencies."
>
>that is absolutely correct... it also impacts organizations that do 
>business with the federal government, and based on some other 
>stuff i've read, will most likely cascade to state governments as 
>well...

An additional impact will probably be organizations that benefit from the
government's e-Rate program that subsidizes connectivity (like public
schools and municipal libraries). Our district gets our multiple T-1s and
district-wide network at about half price. Under the Children's Internet
Protection Act (currently languishing in the House, but through the Senate
on wings, and expected to pass the House without difficulty), e-Rate
recipients HAVE to install filters of some kind or lose the subsidy.
According to one reading of the act, non-compliance would also require
repayment of all past e-Rate discounts. In our case that would amount to
literally millions of dollars.

Now I doubt that the accessibility discussion will reach the same fevered
pitch as protecting kiddies from porn, so I don't know that they would
invoke that kind of threat, but I'm hedging my bets and trying to train all
the web builders in my district to think "Accesible First".

Dave
----
home: http://home.gci.net/~mccreath/
work: http://www.asd.k12.ak.us/

From desmoljones at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 22 12:31:12 2000
From: desmoljones at hotmail.com (M. Hannan)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:31:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] OT:  Triumphant Return
Message-ID: <LAW2-F499aZ1i6bdVJW00001584@hotmail.com>

After a year and a half absence (I can't remember why I left) I'm announcing 
my triumphant return to thelist.  I hope I can be as enlightening as I am 
enlightened by y'all.

m@ (formerly jksfan).

<tip type="css">
When setting the background of dynamic layers don't forget 
(background-color: for IE) || (layer-background-color: for Netscape), one of 
these things is not like the other.
</tip>
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 12:43:37 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:43:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEOEDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
References: <200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <200011221843.eAMIhbh08589@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: "Richard H. Morris" <richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk>
[...]
> > all mine... all martin's... there are a few others who are very
> > particular about that... as well as the three levels of WAI
> > compliance...
> 
> But again, not the major corporates. Saatchi (IIRC) did a web site for a UK
> law firm which was a triumph of style over function to the extent that if
> you didn't have fast access or had some disability you couldn't get to any
> content at all.

that's what pisses me off... these corps should know better, hell, 
they have research staff, and the ability to hire contractors based 
on more than eye candy... places like mine could easily do what 
those firms did, and do it better and cheaper... but we didn't have 
the right buzz to get in there...

grumble...

[...]
> Wasn't this all about drop-down menus once? ~;0)

yeah... but we had more fun with this...

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 12:44:37 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 12:44:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] Have A Look
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122120420.00e7edd0@mail.bayou.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001122111003.00e73570@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <200011221844.eAMIiah08648@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: Jamie Madden <jamie at bayou.com>
[...]
> I've got a question about right side advertising.  I've seen a few sites 
> the are putting banner ads down the right side of a page and letting the 
> content fill 640x480 but you have to scroll to see the ads.  800x600 and up 
> gets it all.  I understand how to do this but I was wondering if anyone 
> else had noticed this trend and if anyone had any comments on it.  It 
> certainly would allow me to spread things out a little more.  16% of my 
> current visitors are running in the vicinity of 640x480.  800x600 is at 57% 
> and eveything else is up from there.  Any suggestions?

i'd say, given those numbers and the ultimate goal of the site, that 
that approach would be acceptable... yesterday i cited CNN as an 
example of someone who does something similar... i never see 
anything on the right because i surf in 640-wide windows (on a 
1280x1024 display), but i don't miss it...

so, if you choose to abandon 640x480, and you can't do it liquid, 
then that would be a logical next step, IMO...

although my opinion is often based on a magic eight ball...

From lemurs at extremezone.com  Wed Nov 22 13:13:12 2000
From: lemurs at extremezone.com (the head lemur)
Date: Wed Nov 22 13:13:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Accessibility laws
References: <8025699F.003382A5.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com><200011221658.eAMGwfh05726@farmer.oracular.com> <a05001906b641b5967909@[192.220.215.231]>
Message-ID: <004601c054b9$3060b120$c91df5cc@sigrid>

I wrote an article on accessibility last year for a list apart
Accessibility: the clock is ticking. This article outlined Section 508 of
the Workforce Investment Act of 1998, where it came from and what it was
supposed to accomplish.

They do not apply to personal or commercial sites. You can still build sites
anyway you want to.

These rules were to be finished by Feb. 7, and become law on August 8, 2000.

The regulations pertained to US Federal websites, which by the latest count
number over 20,000. These regulations were an outgrowth of the Americans
with Disabilities Act. The ADA requires goverment agencies to provide
services and information to all citizens in a form they can understand, such
as braille formats for the blind. The ADA also required places of Public
Accommodation to provide accessibility as well.

It is November 3, 2000 and these regulations may be buried forever.

I wrote an opinion last month on how these regulations were buried.

http://www.lemurzone.com/edit/converse30.htm

This is a snippet from the Military Construction Appropriations Act for
Fiscal Year 2001 (HR. 4425; P.L. 106-246; July 13, 2000)

SEC. 2405. Section 508(f)(1) of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (29 U.S.C.
794d(f)(1)) is amended--

(1) in subparagraph (A), by striking `Effective' and all that follows
through `1998,' and inserting `Effective 6 months after the date of
publication by the Access Board of final standards described in subsection
(a)(2),'; and

The deleted portion--(A) COMPLAINTS.--Effective 2 years after the date of
enactment of the Rehabilitation Act Amendments of 1998, any individual with
a disability may file a complaint alleging that a Federal department or
agency fails to comply with subsection (a)(1) in providing electronic and
information technology.
(2) in subparagraph (B), by striking `2 years' and all that follows and
inserting `6 months after the date of publication by the Access Board of
final standards described in subsection (a)(2).'.

The deleted portion--(B) APPLICATION.--This subsection shall apply only to
electronic and information technology that is procured by a Federal
department or agency not less than 2 years after the date of enactment of
the Rehabilitation Act Amendments of 1998.
This legislation which is now law, effectively cuts the legs from the
Section 508 regulations regarding web site accessibility for the disabled.

Two points that come to mind immediately.

There is no end date. This will under most circumstances, allow a group to
disguise "motion as activity" by holding meetings, generate interim reports
and collect a check.

There is no accountability. There is nothing in the regulations as
originally written that would create an undue burden on the government, with
the testimony given, with the accessibility standards that were used as a
guide in 1998.

A lot of folks code for different browsers to use "features", play the
javascript browser sniffing game, building different versions of the same
site, build sites in Flash, present material in .pdf formats, and spend time
working with the W3C Standards, HTML 4.0, CSS 1, CSS 2, and the emerging
XML.

We bleed a lot when we build these things only to be hit with rendering
problems, browser incompatibilities that sacrifice Standards for "features",
and incomplete support that would enable us to build rich, compliant, and
accessible sites.

I'm not whining here, just pointing out what happens every time we attempt
anything more complicated than using 'heading' and 'p'tags.

From george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 13:24:33 2000
From: george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk (George Dillon)
Date: Wed Nov 22 13:24:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?
References: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7CF@gate.ti3.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c054b9$de031200$f4cc2cc3@athlon800>

> The post is someone actually updating a file (or attempting to)
>
> anything with _vti is an MS FrontPage Extensions directory/file. The FP
> Extensions are server-side CGI's that the FP editor (and InterDev) use to
> manage the site. A nice thing about the .NET stuff coming out is you don't
> have to use them to update files =)
>
> George, how do you update pages?

Certainly not with FP!!!  I design offline with various tools and then
upload with an FTP app.  I guess this is either someone attempting a hack of
some kind, or accidentally trying to edit the page rather than view it.

Thanks for the info guys :o)

George

From chris at fuseware.com  Wed Nov 22 13:34:37 2000
From: chris at fuseware.com (chris at fuseware.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 13:34:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c054b9$de031200$f4cc2cc3@athlon800>
Message-ID: <000601c054bb$24e4b600$f918800a@VSCLTCOL0054>

Probably somebody probing for security holes.  If you don't run Frontpage, I
wouldn't worry about it.

Chris Evans
Webmaster, Victoria's Secret Catalog
http://www.VictoriasSecret.com
cevans at vscat.com

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of George Dillon
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 2:25 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] What does '_vti_' in my access logs mean?

Thanks for the info guys :o)

George

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From xslf at xslf.com  Wed Nov 22 13:50:33 2000
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Wed Nov 22 13:50:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
Message-ID: <003c01c054bd$d166c7e0$dc9bfea9@xslf>

I am felling blonde right now...

I have a blue table at the bottom of the page of
http://forbes.co.il/dev/sahar/

I need it to cling to the bottom. It works fine with 800X600, but at
1024X768 I have a gap at the bottom of the window. How do I get rid of it?

(See
http://forbes.co.il/dev/sahar/images/sahar_page.gif
for how the bottom of the page should look like )

Thanks,
Shoshannah Forbes
--
Hebrew services for site owners http://www.bool.co.il
Moderator, site builder forum http://forums.nana.co.il/forum.asp?id=17
Personal site: http://www.forbes.co.il

From jjsolari at pobox.com  Wed Nov 22 14:30:22 2000
From: jjsolari at pobox.com (J.J.SOLARI)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:30:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] screen resolution sniffing
Message-ID: <20001122213012-r01010600-b7c3365a@10.0.1.2>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:51:42 -0500, "Ron Jourard" <ronjourard at home.com>
wrote:

>Message: 23
>From: "Ron Jourard" <ronjourard at home.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:51:42 -0500
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Subject: [thelist] screen resolution sniffing
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>I am building a 600 x 800 site that's also viewable at larger screen
>resolutions.
>
>Any opinions on javacript detecting whether visitors have their
>resolution set at 480 x 640 and directing them to a smaller site? Any
>comments on things to watch out for in implementation etc.?
>
>Ron Jourard
>Canada
>www.defencelaw.com

Ron,

Just seen such detection on this site:
<http://www.ciel.lu/>

Basically, the script gets user available browser window size and upon
this action builds appropriate content (table).

There is also a "noscript" for visitors without javascript which offers
minimal navigation means.

If you go deeper in this site at:
<http://www.ciel.lu/contenu/framebien.htm>
you would see further application with frames this time, particularly
navigation frame at:
<http://www.ciel.lu/contenu/navi.htm>

Not much more advice except that, following this path, you'll absolutely
have to leave doors open for those with "less features".

hih,

JJS.
-- 
/* public key id: 9eb99ddb <http://www.keyserver.net/> */
/* homepage <http://www.yoyodesign.org/> */

From sam at sam-i-am.com  Wed Nov 22 14:38:48 2000
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam-I-Am)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:38:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
References: <003c01c054bd$d166c7e0$dc9bfea9@xslf>
Message-ID: <3A1C2EE6.5E079BF6@sam-i-am.com>

I currently working on some prototype templates that do this. 
The bottom table hugs the bottom of the browser window - even when the
window is much taller than the content. 
I had been working on a dHTML type solution, but opted instead for a
simple tables one.
My main table (that hold the content and need to flow from the top of
the window) has a height attribute of around 90% - 98% (depending on
what bottom margin you want). The main content row has a height
attribute of 100% (100% of the available height, which is 90% of the
window height). The footer table (which is discrete) simply follows the
main table.
It works well for most but not all browsers. In particular NN6 ignores
my height attributes, so far.

hth, sorry haven't got an url I can show you right now.. in a day or 2
maybe.
Sam

From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov 22 14:42:16 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:42:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7D8@gate.ti3.com>

mildly on-topic (I'm an optimist ;) )

I'm awanting a digital camera, but not a fancy schmancy print quality one
(if I have too, I could borrow one of those from my pro-photo neighbor
(http://sebron.com)), but a basic "hey that needs a pic!" kinda digital
camera. I been cruising though Amazon's selections, and figger I'm in the
subUS$200 range, any of you kids have recommendations?

(making my Christmas wish-list =) )
sgd
--
work: http://www.ti3.com/
non: http://thinksafely.org/

From meyer at up.edu  Wed Nov 22 14:43:03 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:43:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c054bd$d166c7e0$dc9bfea9@xslf>
References: <003c01c054bd$d166c7e0$dc9bfea9@xslf>
Message-ID: <a05001903b641def7a0c1@[192.220.215.231]>

>I am felling blonde right now...

is that why you're having trouble with spilling?

Since I actually AM blonde, let me try to answer.

Why don't you set the background color to blue, and set the margins 
to "0" and then make the top row(s) have a beige background.  The 
bottom rows would be blue, to blend in with the background color.

What do you think?

Erika

>I have a blue table at the bottom of the page of
>http://forbes.co.il/dev/sahar/
>
>I need it to cling to the bottom. It works fine with 800X600, but at
>1024X768 I have a gap at the bottom of the window. How do I get rid of it?
>
>(See
>http://forbes.co.il/dev/sahar/images/sahar_page.gif
>for how the bottom of the page should look like )
>
>Thanks,
>Shoshannah Forbes

From meyer at up.edu  Wed Nov 22 14:44:51 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:44:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <3A1C2EE6.5E079BF6@sam-i-am.com>
References: <003c01c054bd$d166c7e0$dc9bfea9@xslf>
 <3A1C2EE6.5E079BF6@sam-i-am.com>
Message-ID: <a05001904b641e09401cb@[192.220.215.231]>

>It works well for most but not all browsers. In particular NN6 ignores
>my height attributes, so far.

maybe because there is no such thing as a "height" attribute?

Erika

From jaylard at equilon.com  Wed Nov 22 14:51:43 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:51:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CCF1@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

Sam-I-Am,

> It works well for most but not all browsers. In particular NN6 ignores
> my height attributes, so far.

That's because "height" is a valid HTML 4 attribute only on the <td>
and <th> elements, as far as tables are concerned (and it's deprecated for
both of those). For Netscape 6, however, this would be an excellent
opportunity to use the "fixed" value for the CSS "position" attribute, which
would allow you to maintain your bottom table at a constant position in the
browser window, regardless of scrolling (much like using frames).
Unfortunately, not even IE 5.5 supports position: fixed, so some kind of
browser detection would be necessary.

hth,
James Aylard

From desmoljones at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 22 14:53:42 2000
From: desmoljones at hotmail.com (M. Hannan)
Date: Wed Nov 22 14:53:42 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
Message-ID: <LAW2-F62imo7WrRhxaa000016f6@hotmail.com>

Beware the sub-200's...or at least expect to get what you pay for.  The 
640x480 crapameras are a shoe-in to disappoint.  If you can squeeze the 
money out of your piggybank then get at least a 1 megapixel camera...which 
is decent but not wowish.  2x megapixels are great to write home about, 3.3 
is ohmygawdlookithat.

Features and format are more important than brand name.  Standard smart 
cards are best, tiff/jpeg are better than proprietary format (don't get 
anything that's not a standard 4:3 ratio either, those are just plain 
weird).  USB is a plus.  That being said I'm partial to Olympus.

<tip>
Digital cameras are great, but don't pull a pic off your your 3.3 
megagooglepixel camera onto your PIIII/6trillion and upload it to your site 
via your DSL connection then tell all your friends stuck in 56k land to 
"look at this"....chances are that a year-and-a-half later they'll see 
640x480 (or 800x600) of a dark corner of a great picture that is 6000 times 
larger than their screen resolution.
</tip>

>From: Scott Dexter <sgd at ti3.com>
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>To: "Evolt (E-mail)" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:42:30 -0600
>
>mildly on-topic (I'm an optimist ;) )
>
>I'm awanting a digital camera, but not a fancy schmancy print quality one
>(if I have too, I could borrow one of those from my pro-photo neighbor
>(http://sebron.com)), but a basic "hey that needs a pic!" kinda digital
>camera. I been cruising though Amazon's selections, and figger I'm in the
>subUS$200 range, any of you kids have recommendations?
>
>(making my Christmas wish-list =) )
>sgd
>--
>work: http://www.ti3.com/
>non: http://thinksafely.org/
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From meyer at up.edu  Wed Nov 22 15:02:05 2000
From: meyer at up.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:02:05 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CCF1@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>
References: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CCF1@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>
Message-ID: <a05001905b641e39db82d@[192.220.215.231]>

I used a bottom-fixed background here:
http://www.seastorm.com/notprint/

(it's unfinished/experimental/a rant).

it works on IE5 Mac, too.  Not NN4, of course.

Erika

>For Netscape 6, however, this would be an excellent
>opportunity to use the "fixed" value for the CSS "position" attribute, which
>would allow you to maintain your bottom table at a constant position in the
>browser window, regardless of scrolling (much like using frames).
>Unfortunately, not even IE 5.5 supports position: fixed, so some kind of
>browser detection would be necessary.
>
>hth,
>James Aylard

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 15:02:53 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:02:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699F.00734BD0.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:   roselli at earthlink.net

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

aardvark [roselli at earthlink.net] noted:

>> are you in the US?

>No, UK.

See my previous comments about the UK's Disability Discrimination
Act

>> all mine... all martin's... there are a few others who are very
>> particular about that... as well as the three levels of WAI
>> compliance...

>But again, not the major corporates.

That's because there hasn't been a UK case brought (yet). Look
at the AOL case in the US. $1m in out-of-court settlement, plus probably
5 times that in development costs to make their software compliant.

I think that http://www.smile.co.uk/ are going to get a *major* kicking
over this - not only are they a bank (banks are specifically mentioned
in the legislation), but their parent company have a long track record
of supporting social justice initiatives.

You can't use the smile service without Java - non-reliance on client-
executed applications is about 1st on the WAI Priority 1 list.

That said, anyone got any idea how well screen readers cope with
https?

>> i think once you've got a handle on how to build accessible sites
> from the start, and experience doing them, building them that way
>> is no extra cost to the client... no, you can't do full-bore testing
>> with focus groups, but in our case, all of our sites are accessible
>> unless the client requests otherwise... even those really low-budget
>> ones...
Absolutely - it's like going from point A to point C: it's easier to go via
point B on the way, rather than back to it.

>In many ways, the low-budget ones seem to be the most compliant anyway!
The high-budget ones are generally managed by people unlike us,
who don't understand this stuff, and view it as an unnecessary cost.

This will change.

Cheers
Martin

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Nov 22 15:02:56 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:02:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
Message-ID: <8025699F.00734BD1.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  RE: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?

Martin Burns wrote:

> >Agreed. I have yet to use Flash for a web site.
>> I used it for parts of http://www.rbs.co.uk/archives/memorybank/ (quoting
>> URL from memory), where it added value (and OK, one menu cos we
>> were requiring users to have it to view the interactive stuff)(

>Would that others didn't follow the lead and add flash where it does add
>value. What's the point of a whizbang Flash intro page that tells you
>nothing other than "Click here to enter" ?

A lovely spoof is http://www.skipintro.com/

>> 1995 Disability Discrimination Act: http://www.disability.gov.uk/
>> the same legislation which makes banks/supermarkets install ramps
>> etc. There's no exemption for web sites - current legal thinking is that
>> Level A conformance to the W3C WAI guidelines will satisfy the
>> minimum requirements.

>I'm aware of the physical access provisions to premises and physical sites
>and have been involved in the consultation process (to a limited extent
>through business law committees) on the roll-out provisions in relation to
>offices and premises and the like with the consequent alterations to
>building envelopes.

>I can't see how that translates into a legal requirement for disabled access
>to a web site though.

There's no exemption for web sites. All the legislation mentions is 'services
to the public', with a few examples (banking, supermarkets etc), noting that
the list is not exclusive.

The legal advice I had in the summer was that it absolutely covered web
sites (it was a "Holy shit!" moment for the lawyer in question - I brought it
to her attention)
Cheers
Martin

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From jaylard at equilon.com  Wed Nov 22 15:14:17 2000
From: jaylard at equilon.com (Aylard JA (James))
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:14:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
Message-ID: <8B8252E8924BD31193D800805FE63E6D0104CCF2@mzrmsx02.newcos.com>

> I used a bottom-fixed background here:
> http://www.seastorm.com/notprint/

Yes, for backgrounds, you can used a "fixed" value going back to IE
3 (although with IE 3 it has to either be rolled into a shorthand
"background" property -- as opposed to the stand-alone
"background-attachment" property -- or it has to be in the form of the
IE-proprietary "bgproperties" attribute of the <body> element). The effect
of "position: fixed" is the same, except that you can apply it to
essentially anything -- it's awesome.

James Aylard

From jasonb at halstead-architects.com  Wed Nov 22 15:40:41 2000
From: jasonb at halstead-architects.com (Jason E. Burk)
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:40:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
References: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7D8@gate.ti3.com>
Message-ID: <3A1C681F.4183D77F@halstead-architects.com>

http://www.mercata.com

is all i can say & right now if you sign up with passport (MSN) you get 20%
off stuff at mercata.

check it out.

> I'm awanting a digital camera, but not a fancy schmancy print quality one

as far as what to get, i was on a trip overseas where a lot of people brought
their digital cameras (over 1 million total  images for sure, man).  we had
everything from the nikon's with little memory cards (the cards are quite
expensivo if you ask me) to the big sony's with the floppy disk insert.  i
personally like the floppy disk type because film is cheap (use all those old
floppys that are going bonkers soon anyway) but the nikons with memory cards
shot at resolutions up to 1500 x whatever that would actually print at 3 x 5
on a decent quality printer and look OK -- i find that one colorful, high
quality image on the sony (floppy type) use 1 disk per picture (ouch).

the point & shoot style, memory card cams are probably better for versatility
tho, since they are fairly small and don't require you to carry a hundred
floppy's around, getting beat up in your pockets...if you check out mercata i
know they have some wonderful deals right now on the type of camera you're
looking for.

hth.

jason

*************************************************
j a s o n  e . b u r k
http://www.bsu.edu/World2000/research/burk/
HALSTEAD|architects
www.halstead-architects.com
jasonb at halstead-architects.com
[ jdog at 020.co.uk ]
icq # | 33425254

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 22 15:55:26 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 22 15:55:26 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F62imo7WrRhxaa000016f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A1BF8C6.29045.3CFE894D@localhost>

> From: "M. Hannan" <desmoljones at hotmail.com>
>
> Beware the sub-200's...or at least expect to get what you pay for.  The 
> 640x480 crapameras are a shoe-in to disappoint.  If you can squeeze the 
[...]
> Features and format are more important than brand name.  Standard smart 
> cards are best, tiff/jpeg are better than proprietary format (don't get 
> anything that's not a standard 4:3 ratio either, those are just plain 
> weird).  USB is a plus.  That being said I'm partial to Olympus.

i'll second all this... after much research (you may remember me 
commenting on this in the past) for a $300-ish camera for my 
brother to take overseas (to use with that oft-cited text-based CMS 
i made), i ended up recommending the Olympus D340 R... i think 
there is a newer model out...

good color, clarity, brightness, etc... the software to get it to your 
PC can be wonky, and his wasn't y2k-friendly, but he downloaded 
a patch... he didn't want USB, either, but i think they have USB 
now...

anyway, you can see sample images at http://roselli.org/tour/ 
(recently he posted a good, odd, set at 
http://roselli.org/tour/entry.asp?articleID=1000114&folder=11_2000, 
all taken with that camera and posted after run through a droplet i 
gave him)...

> Digital cameras are great, but don't pull a pic off your your 3.3 
> megagooglepixel camera onto your PIIII/6trillion and upload it to your site 
> via your DSL connection then tell all your friends stuck in 56k land to 
> "look at this"....chances are that a year-and-a-half later they'll see 
[...]

that web photo gallery option in Photoshop 5 is a great 5-second 
way to post them hi-res pics without them being fat files... you may 
not like the HTML (i don't), but who cares if it's among friends...?

From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov 22 16:26:35 2000
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov 22 16:26:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7DC@gate.ti3.com>

I've been reading much about the Olympus D-360L --a CNET editor's choice,
btw-- looks like I might head in this direction. Aardie, I've seen the pics
from your bro (but I seem to have missed the discourse on choosing a
camera), so I think I'm sold.

Found it for US$229, gonna go ask Santa if she wants to deliver it early =)

It still uses a serial cable to d/l pics, but a co-worker mentioned he
bought a 64MB memory card for his Nikon and it came with a USB cradle to d/l
direct from the card. Pretty slick... just spent an extra 45 seconds and
Olympus makes a solo SmartMedia-USB cradle accessory --US$57....

thanks kids--
sgd
--
work: http://www.ti3.com/
non: http://thinksafely.org/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: aardvark [mailto:roselli at earthlink.net]
> i made), i ended up recommending the Olympus D340 R... i think 
> there is a newer model out...
> 
> good color, clarity, brightness, etc... the software to get 
> it to your 
> PC can be wonky, and his wasn't y2k-friendly, but he downloaded 
> a patch... he didn't want USB, either, but i think they have USB 
> now...

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Nov 22 16:27:03 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Nov 22 16:27:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Dropdowns - good or bad?
In-Reply-To: <200011221843.eAMIhbh08589@farmer.oracular.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMOEOIDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

aardvark [roselli at earthlink.net] wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> > But again, not the major corporates. Saatchi (IIRC) did a web
> site for a UK
> > law firm which was a triumph of style over function to the
> extent that if
> > you didn't have fast access or had some disability you couldn't
> get to any
> > content at all.
>
> that's what pisses me off... these corps should know better, hell,
> they have research staff, and the ability to hire contractors based
> on more than eye candy... places like mine could easily do what
> those firms did, and do it better and cheaper... but we didn't have
> the right buzz to get in there...
>
> grumble...

~:0) They've now merged with another firm and the new site is slightly more
traditional.

> > Wasn't this all about drop-down menus once? ~;0)
>
> yeah... but we had more fun with this...

LOL!

From david_shadovitz at xontech.com  Wed Nov 22 17:34:39 2000
From: david_shadovitz at xontech.com (David Shadovitz)
Date: Wed Nov 22 17:34:39 2000
Subject: [thelist] Anti-Netscape tips
Message-ID: <3A1C5AB9.79031B61@xontech.com>

I owe, so here are two things I learned today.  Apologies if these are
well-known issues.
-David

Consider these two hidden form elements:
   <input type="hidden" name="dummy1">
   <input type="hidden" name="dummy2" value="">

In IE 5.0, the action page sees the value of each of these elements as
"".
In Netscape 4.5, the action page sees the value of the 1st one as " "
and the 2nd as "".

Netscape's differentiation between these two was a surprise to me.
If you don't want to use the value attribute, make sure your action page
trims the form elements.

</tip>

As of JS 1.1, options may be created dynamically, like so:
  new Option(text, value[, defaultSelected, selected])

The last two arguments are optional and specify whether the new option
is selected.

I found that Netscape 4.5 & 4.7 disregard the values of those two
arguments and always select a new option created this way!  IE 5.0 obeys
the rules.  You can get around the problem by omitting these arguments
and then setting the new option's properties.

Here's a page demonstrating the flaw, if my HTML gets through:

<html>
<head></head>
<body>
<form>
<select name="guys" multiple size="10">
  <option value="Tom">Tom</option>
  <option value="Dick">Dick</option>
  <option value="Harry">Harry</option>
</select> 
<input type="button" value="Add a guy" onclick="var g = new
Option('Alfred', 'Alfred', false,
false);this.form.guys.options[this.form.guys.length] = g">
</form>
</body>
</html>

</tip>

From bb at misspixel.com  Wed Nov 22 17:48:03 2000
From: bb at misspixel.com (Miss Pixel)
Date: Wed Nov 22 17:48:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
References: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7D8@gate.ti3.com>
Message-ID: <00e101c054de$a927bac0$e1bafea9@pixelpc>

You're better off spending $300 for something that takes real pictures, like
an Olympus 360L, which takes beautiful shots.

Check comparisons here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAM01.HTM

It's very enlightening.  In addition to specs and prices, sample photos from
nearly every available model are there.

From webshot at neoncowboy.com  Wed Nov 22 18:05:11 2000
From: webshot at neoncowboy.com (John Corry)
Date: Wed Nov 22 18:05:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
In-Reply-To: <00e101c054de$a927bac0$e1bafea9@pixelpc>
Message-ID: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAKENKDAAA.webshot@neoncowboy.com>

> You're better off spending $300 for something that takes real
> pictures,

Here..here..miss pixel,

I hear many people refer to 'mega-pixel' as if it were the sole measuring
stick by which digital cameras ought be measured. Remember that all of those
pixels will only be as well 'exposed' as the instrument that 'exposes' them.
Optics are of unparalleled importance.

I bought a Sony DSC d770 a few months ago and have been really pleased with
the results. It has a killer lens, is fast (while manually focused anyway,
the AF is slow. real slow.) and uses slick memory stick media.

> Check comparisons here:
>
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAM01.HTM
>
> It's very enlightening.  In addition to specs and prices, sample
> photos from
> nearly every available model are there.

DSC d770 review here...
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D770/D770A.HTM

buy.com had 'em marked way down ($740) in September.
http://www.buy.com

happy thanksgiving to all,
jc

From miinx at miinx.com.au  Wed Nov 22 18:09:47 2000
From: miinx at miinx.com.au (miinx)
Date: Wed Nov 22 18:09:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] table cell troubles in Netscape
References: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAOENOCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <3A1C5F98.386B3B25@miinx.com.au>

Lisa Bartholomew wrote:

> http://www.koolfish.com/jake/index.html
>
> If you want to see what it should look like view in Explorer. I have the
> table cells set to the correct width so why is Netscape creating the cell
> larger than it should be?

You're cell widths for the row in question actually don't add up to the width
of the table...  8+338+14 = 360, yet your table def is width=358.  I'd fix this
first - that's enough to throw NS out.

HTH
Karen
--
http://www.miinx.com.au/
http://www.monkey.com.au/

From taracleveland at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 22 19:13:38 2000
From: taracleveland at hotmail.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Wed Nov 22 19:13:38 2000
Subject: [thelist] Anyone want a pint?
Message-ID: <F290WFBXZGYmXvmmKtr00001493@hotmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm flying from Toronto over to the other side of the pond on Sunday 
night/Monday morning for the Jakob Nielsen conference in London on Tuesday, 
Wednesday and Thursday. I'll be going to Manchester for the weekend though 
(gotta visit my grandma). I'd love to meet some of the Londoners or 
Mancunians on the list. Does anyone want to go for a pint sometime next 
week?

You can email me off list taracleveland at hotmail.com (I'm on the digest).

Tara

<tip author="Tara Cleveland">
If you get a chance, go to an Adobe presentation on Photoshop 6. There's 
lots of tips and tricks that they tell you about that aren't in the manual. 
For instance (a rather inane example, actually), the original name for this 
release is "Venus in Furs" the band name of one of the Photoshop guys. You 
can find an Easter egg screen for it on a Mac by (I think) option clicking 
on the About Photoshop menu item or on the startup screen (I'm trying to 
remember from the presentation because I don't have PS6 yet). But really go 
to a presentation because they do tell you a whole bunch of useful things, I 
promise.
</tip>
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From isaac at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 22 19:28:50 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Wed Nov 22 19:28:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
In-Reply-To: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB321117223F7D8@gate.ti3.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBIECIDPAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> I'm awanting a digital camera...

I'm going to jump onto the back of this thread, but I'm after something a
touch above Scott's request.

I've been reading the reviews at these sites:

http://www.dcresource.com/
http://www.steves-digicams.com/

but thought that some of you guys might have some tips on what to look out
for.

My budget is probably AUD$750-1000 (which at current dismal exchange rates
is around US$500).

I'm hoping to find something with good optical zoom and resolution. Also,
with a movie mode of some sort (preferably with audio, but I can live
without it.)

It'd be good to have something that takes Compact Flash Type II that
supports the IBM Microdrives - that'd be handy to have when travelling so I
wouldn't have to buy a notebook to go with it.

USB support would be good, but serial is bearable if I can get hold of a USB
card reader later on. An uncompressed (ie, TIFF, RAW) mode would be very,
very handy.

The favourite of the above two sites appears to be the Olympus D-490Z:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/d490z-review/index.html

It does silent movie mode, Uncompressed TIFFs, but has no USB, and comes
with a shitty storage card (8MB). It's about US$500.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be available in Australia. A local
camera place recommended the more-expensive Olympus C-990, but I can't find
reviews of it at either of the sites I've linked to above.

Anyone outside the US got any experience with buying cameras from there? I
imagine that likely problems are warranties/guarantees, AC power adapters
having the wrong plug, etc.

tia,

isaac

From KarenB at FrontierSoftware.com.au  Wed Nov 22 20:02:09 2000
From: KarenB at FrontierSoftware.com.au (Karen Bowen)
Date: Wed Nov 22 20:02:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] .htc & behaviours
Message-ID: <91543B2058D0D211A6B30090271C8E6BCE798E@neptune.internal.frontier>

Are .htc files and methods of attaching behaviours via style sheets, etc,
IE-specific?  Does N6 support them?

e.g. behavior: url("<myscript.htc>");

TIA
Karen

From amanda at gawow.com  Wed Nov 22 22:11:03 2000
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Wed Nov 22 22:11:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBIECIDPAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKAEBMDKAA.amanda@gawow.com>

I went and read about a billion reviews last year and compiled a list of the
things that seemed most recurring in terms of what to look for in a good
camera. Now I give this list to you. Granted, I didn't follow any of these
things as my hubby went out and bought me an older Kodak digital camera
which has pretty decent quality -- I'm more impressed than not with it's
results.

- LCD screen of 2" on the diagonal or more
- LCD which tracks in real time
- Optical finder so that you can use in bright sunlight
- zoom lens should be optical not digital
- automatic and manual controls offer more options; look for light-metering
capabilities
- check for flimsy parts
- there's a typical delay between shots on digital cameras so you could look
for a rapid-shooting mode or "burst" mode
- USB for better/faster transfer
- external card readers are good, too.
- check how many images at highest res the cameral will hold -- not memory
- rechargeable batteris
- check if uncompressed images (usually tiff) output is available for really
hi-res shots
- play with the buttons and the interface a lot before you buy -- some of
those buttons are too small/too close together and some of the interfaces
are clunky and hard to work with.

- amanda, now holding out for a digital camera that can do 15 sec. MPEGS

From jspencer at sunflower.com  Wed Nov 22 22:42:36 2000
From: jspencer at sunflower.com (John Spencer)
Date: Wed Nov 22 22:42:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKAEBMDKAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <AKEKIEDFCPDLPKAGJICAKEPICGAA.jspencer@sunflower.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of A. Erickson
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 10:16 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] digital camera shopping

>- amanda, now holding out for a digital camera that can do 15 sec. MPEGS<

The new Sony Mavica MVC CD-1000 can record 15 seconds, and it has a built in
cdr burner, dumping images directly to Mini CD. The minis will work on most
cd-roms unless they are several years old, in which case it comes with a
holder. It has image stabilization, and a lot more.
http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/mavica/home.htm I am really hoping that
Santa will get together with my entire family and get this for me!!

Cheers and Happy T-day to those here in the states!
John

<tip>
<tip type="Read a little" author="John Spencer">
It doesn't really matter how new, bad or expensive the equipment is, if you
have no idea how to take a "good" photograph you are probably not going to
get a good result.
Investing in a book to learn the basics can really make a lot of difference.
But at the same time do not suppress your creative thoughts, always try it
even if it might not work. I know it's a lame tip, but it's my first, so
take pity on me.
</tip>

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From desmoljones at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 22 23:39:08 2000
From: desmoljones at hotmail.com (M. Hannan)
Date: Wed Nov 22 23:39:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] digital camera shopping
Message-ID: <LAW2-F124EBdyFj9ZYh000018b2@hotmail.com>

>I hear many people refer to 'mega-pixel' as if it were the sole >measuring 
>stick by which digital cameras ought be measured. Remember >that all of 
>those pixels will only be as well 'exposed' as the >instrument that 
>'exposes' them. Optics are of unparalleled importance.

I agree....BUT, all things being relatively equal (optics across the 
medium-to-low range digital camera selections) you will notice bad 
resolution quicker than you will notice bad optics...given the price range 
and intended purposes stated.  If we had an unlimited budget I'd be talking 
about some nice digital backs for your medium format Hassie.  Since we're 
talking budget then the issue of first order is resolution.

m@
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From framar at interlog.com  Thu Nov 23 00:03:22 2000
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Thu Nov 23 00:03:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
Message-ID: <20001123010333-r01010600-64b3f808@24.43.66.191>

We deal with an ISP we're on fairly familiar terms with. Today, I got an email
from the admin asking a technical question about how I had set up some joins in
one of my product's database.

What?

When I asked to clarify whether he was building a product based on ours, to
resell to other customers, he essentially (and casually) said yes. (WTF was he
thinking?!)

Now, as he is our unique supplier of CF ISP services, and the admin, I've got
some serious, serious thinking to do about protecting our materials.

I know I can encrypt my code- can I decrypt it? And can I encrypt my database in
such a way that it functions, and yet still not allow him, with his Admin God
status to get the password?

I don't know who'se more stupid: Me for trusting in a business situation, or him
for outright telling me that he's screwing me over.

Frank Marion                      Loofah Communications
frank at loofahcom.com               http://www.loofahcom.com

From jayfitz at bayou.com  Thu Nov 23 00:11:58 2000
From: jayfitz at bayou.com (Jay Fitzgerald)
Date: Thu Nov 23 00:11:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <3A1CB462.26FC724B@bayou.com>

Does anyone know of a fairly decent web admin interface/wrapper for
Postgres?

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Thu Nov 23 00:15:48 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Thu Nov 23 00:15:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
In-Reply-To: <20001123010333-r01010600-64b3f808@24.43.66.191>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001123000635.00b02d00@redhotsweeps.com>

In Cold Fusion, you can encrypt, but cannot decrypt.  Keep a backup 
copy.   As for the database, I do not think there is anything you can 
do.  All he really has to do is turn on the logging features of the 
database and all your sql commands are saved to a log file.

Kinda sucks if you want to keep everything a secret.  Only thing I can 
suggest is to offer to lease it to them.  (If you want to go that route).

Good luck.

At 12:03 AM 11/23/00 , you wrote:

>We deal with an ISP we're on fairly familiar terms with. Today, I got an email
>from the admin asking a technical question about how I had set up some 
>joins in
>one of my product's database.
>
>What?
>
>When I asked to clarify whether he was building a product based on ours, to
>resell to other customers, he essentially (and casually) said yes. (WTF was he
>thinking?!)
>
>Now, as he is our unique supplier of CF ISP services, and the admin, I've got
>some serious, serious thinking to do about protecting our materials.
>
>I know I can encrypt my code- can I decrypt it? And can I encrypt my 
>database in
>such a way that it functions, and yet still not allow him, with his Admin God
>status to get the password?
>
>I don't know who'se more stupid: Me for trusting in a business situation, 
>or him
>for outright telling me that he's screwing me over.
>
>
>Frank Marion                      Loofah Communications
>frank at loofahcom.com               http://www.loofahcom.com
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 23 00:39:03 2000
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 23 00:39:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20001123000635.00b02d00@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIKHMNKANLGEBLMLBGECNDPAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> In Cold Fusion, you can encrypt, but cannot decrypt.

I believe there are methods (fairly easily found on the Web) of decrypting
encrypted CF files. I would not rely on it for stuff you definitely want to
keep to yourself.

Surely what the ISP is doing is not permissable? Maybe you should talk to a
lawyer about it (or at least check through the contract you signed with the
ISP)? A slightly threatening letter could get them to stop stealing your
stuff, or license it (if you were happy to go down that path) from you for a
fee.

BTW, they're more stupid, and they sound like bastards. :P

From rob at bigbang.net.au  Thu Nov 23 01:22:52 2000
From: rob at bigbang.net.au (Rob Keniger)
Date: Thu Nov 23 01:22:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
In-Reply-To: <20001123010333-r01010600-64b3f808@24.43.66.191>
Message-ID: <B64302F2.1031A%rob@bigbang.net.au>

on 11/23/00 4:03 PM, Frank at framar at interlog.com wrote:

> We deal with an ISP we're on fairly familiar terms with. Today, I got an email
> from the admin asking a technical question about how I had set up some joins
> in
> one of my product's database.
> 
> What?

That's my reaction. I can't believe this.

> When I asked to clarify whether he was building a product based on ours, to
> resell to other customers, he essentially (and casually) said yes. (WTF was he
> thinking?!)

This is completely, totally and utterly illegal. Talk to a good IP lawyer
immediately.

> Now, as he is our unique supplier of CF ISP services, and the admin, I've got
> some serious, serious thinking to do about protecting our materials.
> 
> I know I can encrypt my code- can I decrypt it? And can I encrypt my database
> in
> such a way that it functions, and yet still not allow him, with his Admin God
> status to get the password?
> 
> I don't know who'se more stupid: Me for trusting in a business situation, or
> him
> for outright telling me that he's screwing me over.

It doesn't matter. Unless you signed a contract to the contrary then you
have an iron-clad case against them. What they have done is illegal and
immoral. Don't even bother trying to encrypt your code. Speak to a lawyer.

Rob Keniger

big bang solutions

<mailto:rob at bigbang.net.au>
<http://www.bigbang.net.au>

From Douglas.Potts at dla.com  Thu Nov 23 03:02:56 2000
From: Douglas.Potts at dla.com (Potts, Douglas)
Date: Thu Nov 23 03:02:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] Python
Message-ID: <3D6CEDD758B0D2119C860008C75D167E0318BB90@exbdf.dibbluptonalsop.co.uk>

Hi,
Just wondered if anyone is using this and if so what it's good for. I have
no knowledge of this at all and just wondered. I heard google was written
with this. Does anyone know?
Regards,
Doug
<tip type="programming" author="Doug Potts">
	If you don't know java yet, have a look at it. I'm using it at the
moment and it's an excellent! language, and there's some excellent open
source stuff appearing try www.freshmeat.net for starters.
</tip>

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================

From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com  Thu Nov 23 03:29:31 2000
From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton)
Date: Thu Nov 23 03:29:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] Browser detection and style sheets
In-Reply-To: <B63EB08E.AE86%bobd@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <2234F.FDB%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>

Hi listees

I will ask this again, but try and explain a little better :o)

I currently use different style sheets for windows IE, windows NN, Mac IE
and Mac NN.

This tends to work well, but I now wish to add another 1 or 2 style sheets,
namely one for Mac IE 5 and up, and another for Mac NN 6 and up.

I use JavaScript for browser/platform detection, the script sits in an
external js file, the script I use is:

I have tried to modify the code to add choices for the extra style sheets,
but I am no coder!!!! and have been unable to do this successfully (I nearly
got it a couple of times - but didn't work properly!!!!).

I have also searched the internet (thanks for suggestions I have already
had), but the scripts I have found (and been given) have only tended to deal
with different browsers (all on PC)  I have not been able to find anything
that will deal with browsers and platforms.

I know I am thick when it comes to programming :o( but I do try.  Are there
any script gurus out there who would be willing to help me with the extra
code needed to add options for extra style sheets???

I also know that browser detection can be done server side, and that this
might be a better solution. I would be quite happy to do this, but again I
am struggling to find a suitable cgi script, I have spent hours looking but
again can only find browser detection, or when I do find something that will
detect both browser and platform it is not shown how to use the script for
what I want.

Am I the only one who wants different style sheets depending on platform as
well as browser????

Zoe

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zoe Oughton
zoe.oughton at btconnect.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 06:16:25 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Nov 23 06:16:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design (was Dropdowns - good or bad?)
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPDDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

>>> 1995 Disability Discrimination Act: http://www.disability.gov.uk/

See also http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/1995050.htm

>>I'm aware of the physical access provisions to premises and physical sites
>>and have been involved in the consultation process (to a limited extent
>>through business law committees) on the roll-out provisions in relation to
>>offices and premises and the like with the consequent alterations to
>>building envelopes.
>>I can't see how that translates into a legal requirement for disabled
access
>>to a web site though.

> There's no exemption for web sites. All the legislation mentions is
'services
>to the public', with a few examples (banking, supermarkets etc), noting
that
>the list is not exclusive.

>The legal advice I had in the summer was that it absolutely covered web
>sites (it was a "Holy shit!" moment for the lawyer in question - I brought
it
>to her attention)

My initial thought is that this applies to physical goods, services and
premises. But as it is of great importance to any UK-based designers on the
list and those with UK-based Clients, I reckon this deserves further
research.  If it does apply to web sites and the small business exemptions
does not, then we as designers should be pointing this out to our Clients
and producing either compliant sites first off or perhaps producing a
version which is compliant (with well-flagged hyperlinks to it from the
opening page).

I have contacted the DDA Helpline and they have promised to come back to me
with some guidance as to whether web sites are included.

The Act itself is not helpful from my first blush reading of it, but the
Code of Practice seems interesting: I need to read it some more.

The Code is available at http://www.disability.gov.uk/dda/finalcode.pdf for
those interested/affected.

I'll report back.

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 07:05:53 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:05:53 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <a05001903b641def7a0c1@[192.220.215.231]>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPEDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

Shoshannah Forbes asked:

> -----Original Message-----
> >I need it to cling to the bottom. It works fine with 800X600, but at
> >1024X768 I have a gap at the bottom of the window. How do I get
> rid of it?

Try doing something like this:
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<title>Title</title>
</head>
<body>
  <table border="0" cellspacing="1" height="100%" width="100%">
    <tr>
      <td width="100%">Content goes here</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td width="100%" height="100" valign="bottom" align="center">Bottom
table goes here
        <p><a href="http://www.foobar.com">Link One</a> | <a
href="http://www.foobar.co.il">Link
        Two</a></td>
    </tr>
  </table>
</body>
</html>

adding your colours and content, etc. where appropriate.

This seems to work on various flavours of browser and platform.

HTH

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 23 07:21:33 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:21:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Browser detection and style sheets
In-Reply-To: <2234F.FDB%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
References: <B63EB08E.AE86%bobd@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3A1CD345.1620.404D0F34@localhost>

> From: Zoe Oughton <zoe.oughton at btconnect.com>
> 
> Am I the only one who wants different style sheets depending on platform as
> well as browser????

no...

but a long time ago i gave up on that... ultimately, i still generally 
use CSS only for text control, so the only thing that's different from 
browser/platform to browser/platform is the interpretation of units...

i've done pretty well (i think) building CSS files that are legible to all 
(algonquinstudios.com) or allowing users to resize the text on their 
own (roselli.org)...

i know it doesn't help your specific question, but by bypassing the 
need, you could alleviate the problem...

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 23 07:27:46 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:27:46 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
In-Reply-To: <B64302F2.1031A%rob@bigbang.net.au>
References: <20001123010333-r01010600-64b3f808@24.43.66.191>
Message-ID: <3A1CD4D6.24020.40532E6E@localhost>

> From: Rob Keniger <rob at bigbang.net.au>
> 
> > When I asked to clarify whether he was building a product based on ours, to
> > resell to other customers, he essentially (and casually) said yes. (WTF was he
> > thinking?!)
> 
> This is completely, totally and utterly illegal. Talk to a good IP lawyer
> immediately.

he's right... gather information (log your phone conversation, send 
him an email and get him to confirm what he's doing, cite your 
source code) and get it ready...

give him a call telling him that you have not given him permission
to reverse-engineer your code and resell it... tell him he has to
stop immediately... have your lawyer send a letter (this part
should be relatively cheap)...

if you let this go, do not act immediately, or imply in any way that 
this might be ok, you can be screwed... you need to be swift and 
decisive, and leave no room for misinterpretation...

From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com  Thu Nov 23 07:46:24 2000
From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:46:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPDDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <25F8D.FE7%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>

> 
> I have contacted the DDA Helpline and they have promised to come back to me
> with some guidance as to whether web sites are included.
> 
> The Act itself is not helpful from my first blush reading of it, but the
> Code of Practice seems interesting: I need to read it some more.
> 
> The Code is available at http://www.disability.gov.uk/dda/finalcode.pdf for
> those interested/affected.
> 
> I'll report back.

I also think this is an issue which we need to address.  I have recently
started to redesign a government department (or sorta governemnt we are at
'arms lenth' - whatever that means :o) ) web site, and I am keen for it to
be fully accessible but visually appealing.

My first design did not specify a font size, I wanted let the user define
their own font size or have their default browser font size.  This was so
that those who needed/required/wanted large font sizes were able to increase
the size with no problems.

However, my boss does not like the default PC font size on most browsers, he
thinks it is too big and insists that I make it smaller.  My reaction was to
explain about accessibility, but he was insistant saying that if needed we
can add pages to the site later for those who wanted more control
themselves!!!! >:o(

I have spent lots of time looking at what is the best way to control font
sizes, but still giving users some control.  NOT easy!!!

I have read that many articles about:

'Only use pt for font size'
    'never use pt for font size'
    'only use em for font size'
       'never use em for font size'
    'only use % for font size'
    'never use % for font size'

My head is realing with all the contradictory advice regarding font size and
accessibility, and I am still non the wiser!:o(

I think I might use % as it seems to be the one element that still gives
users some control themselves. But if anyone has any better advice I am all
ears!!

I think it is important that these issues are dealt with as soon as possible
because it could eventually affect all of us.  I have downloaded the
Disability Discrimination Act, Code of Conduct and will read it as soon as I
get a chance.  Like Richard I will report on anything I find out.

Zoe

From peter at vardus.com  Thu Nov 23 07:57:13 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:57:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
In-Reply-To: <3A1BF8C6.29045.3CFE894D@localhost>
References: <LAW2-F62imo7WrRhxaa000016f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20001123135434.02511760@smtp.vardus.net>

Am I correct to think that SE's don't spider URL's with querystrings? And 
if so, in many sites, if we want them to be spidered we need to give it 
url's without querystrings? (like wired.com)
The approach we're taking is this:
we are building a Spectra site with lots of daily articles, e.g. there will 
be URL's.
However, we make a daily copy of these articles into normal url's.
Then, we will submit a page with links to these url's to the se's.
That shold work.
Am I missing a better way, or anything???
Thanks guys!!
Peter (sick and speccing)

From gsd at mac.com  Thu Nov 23 07:57:54 2000
From: gsd at mac.com (George Donnelly)
Date: Thu Nov 23 07:57:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] Python
In-Reply-To: <3D6CEDD758B0D2119C860008C75D167E0318BB90@exbdf.dibbluptonalsop.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B643517C.180AC%gsd@mac.com>

One thing its good for is Zope, a powerful object-oriented (like Python)
content management system. Zope is written mainly in python with a little C.

its open-source and free.

http://www.zope.org/

I'm a python newbie but I know of its many good points is that it is easy to
learn and easy to read.

kind regards,
george
http://www.cyklotron.com/
We must be the change we wish to see. --MK Gandhi

> Just wondered if anyone is using this and if so what it's good for. I have
> no knowledge of this at all and just wondered. I heard google was written
> with this. Does anyone know?

From gsd at mac.com  Thu Nov 23 08:00:02 2000
From: gsd at mac.com (George Donnelly)
Date: Thu Nov 23 08:00:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20001123135434.02511760@smtp.vardus.net>
Message-ID: <B64351FC.180AE%gsd@mac.com>

I know that Google recently indexed some pages on my site that had a "?" in
the URL.

kind regards,
george
http://www.cyklotron.com/
We must be the change we wish to see. --MK Gandhi

> Am I correct to think that SE's don't spider URL's with querystrings? And
> if so, in many sites, if we want them to be spidered we need to give it
> url's without querystrings? (like wired.com)
> The approach we're taking is this:
> we are building a Spectra site with lots of daily articles, e.g. there will
> be URL's.
> However, we make a daily copy of these articles into normal url's.
> Then, we will submit a page with links to these url's to the se's.
> That shold work.
> Am I missing a better way, or anything???

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov 23 08:12:30 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov 23 08:12:30 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
Message-ID: <01c05557$58b449e0$c54e149a@default>

>My first design did not specify a font size, I wanted let the user define
>their own font size or have their default browser font size.  This was so
>that those who needed/required/wanted large font sizes were able to
increase
>the size with no problems.

hi zoe

this font size strategy is not good enough for some people, but personally
i think it is the greatest and has several advantages

- less code
 - browser detection eliminated
 - resizes well on all platforms
 - prints with no problems
 - simplifies style sheets
 - et cetera, et cetera

the only disadvantage?  it looks too roomy for portal fanatics who want to
squeeze as much as possible above the fold

>However, my boss does not like the default PC font size on most browsers,
he
>thinks it is too big and insists that I make it smaller.  My reaction was
to
>explain about accessibility, but he was insistant saying that if needed we
>can add pages to the site later for those who wanted more control
>themselves!!!! >:o(

i know it's not nice to judge someone on the basis of one comment, but he
sounds like a real clueless pointy-haired type

instead of browser detection, i think maybe it's time for you to do some
new job detection

otherwise you're going to feel a lot of stress in future

it's like you spend hours on a fine sauce for your meal, and he's putting
ketchup all over it

bleargh

rudy
r937.com

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov 23 08:23:17 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov 23 08:23:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
Message-ID: <01c05559$007fce00$c54e149a@default>

>Try doing something like this:
>[snip]
><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
>[snip]
>This seems to work on various flavours of browser and platform.

hi richard

um, that'll work fine on various flavours of *windows* platform

i'd go with an iso charset

sorry to jump on this little detail, i know your post was on a different
topic, but i can't help myself sometimes...

rudy
r937.com

From andy.war at ntlworld.com  Thu Nov 23 08:23:49 2000
From: andy.war at ntlworld.com (Andy Warwick)
Date: Thu Nov 23 08:23:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
In-Reply-To: <25F8D.FE7%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <B642DA15.6AB0%andy.war@ntlworld.com>

on 2/1/04 7:12 pm, Zoe Oughton at zoe.oughton at btconnect.com wrote:

>  I have recently
> started to redesign a government department (or sorta governemnt we are at
> 'arms lenth' - whatever that means :o) ) web site, and I am keen for it to
> be fully accessible but visually appealing.

A noble goal; good luck - you'll need it.

I have spent many hours trying to achieve the same.

The site I am currently working on even looks fairly reasonable in lynx on
linux, so it /is/ possible.

> My first design did not specify a font size, I wanted let the user define
> their own font size or have their default browser font size.  This was so
> that those who needed/required/wanted large font sizes were able to increase
> the size with no problems.

An important UI issue and one that I applaud. I detest sites that fix size
with pixels, or assume PC browsers, for general text and navigation (I make
exceptions for legal small print, etc.)
 
> However, my boss does not like the default PC font size on most browsers, he
> thinks it is too big and insists that I make it smaller.  My reaction was to
> explain about accessibility, but he was insistant saying that if needed we
> can add pages to the site later for those who wanted more control
> themselves!!!! >:o(

At the risk of being flippant, is there any way to hack his PC (and any he
looks at) so that /his/ default size is acceptable, and let it slide as is?

> I have spent lots of time looking at what is the best way to control font
> sizes, but still giving users some control.  NOT easy!!!

> I have read that many articles about:
> 
> 'Only use pt for font size'
> 'never use pt for font size'
> 'only use em for font size'
> 'never use em for font size'
> 'only use % for font size'
> 'never use % for font size'
> 
> My head is realing with all the contradictory advice regarding font size and
> accessibility, and I am still non the wiser!:o(

Personally I use ems, with a server-side browser detect to serve different
CSS files depending on browser and platform. I'll tend to use a default em
setting on the Mac side that I like the look/feel off, (eg. 0.9 em), then
set up an identical style sheet for the PC with the point size approx. 20%
smaller (eg. 0.75 em). That usually accounts for the size difference across
platforms. Each style/size I set is an absolute em value, so that is is
always in pro. to the browser's local settings, and stays in pro. to other
text on the page.

As I understand it, a value of 1 em on a browser set to 16pt size will give
16pt, while the same text with a 0.5 em value will give an 8pt size. On a
browser with 12pt text, the same settings will give 12pt and 6pt. If that
isn't strictly correct, that at least seems to be the case.

I have heard that ems on particular versions of Netscape screw up printing,
but as I believe it is better to offer a "print version" of each page as
plain, unstyled text, that is not an issue.

> I think I might use % as it seems to be the one element that still gives
> users some control themselves. But if anyone has any better advice I am all
> ears!!

If you need more details/examples of some of the things I've figured out for
better accessability let me know.

> I think it is important that these issues are dealt with as soon as possible
> because it could eventually affect all of us.  I have downloaded the
> Disability Discrimination Act, Code of Conduct and will read it as soon as I
> get a chance.  Like Richard I will report on anything I find out.

I too have grabbed a copy and am studying it. Immediate questions arise
about the section on manufacturers of goods do not need to worry as the
store selling them is liable; do we - as 3rd party web designers - count as
'manufacturing' goods, that the client then offers as a service?
 
Andy W

From mike.king at redroom.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 08:24:08 2000
From: mike.king at redroom.co.uk (Mike King)
Date: Thu Nov 23 08:24:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
In-Reply-To: <25F8D.FE7%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
References: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPDDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001123141344.00a986a0@pop.redroom.co.uk>

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Hash: SHA1

Zoe,

If it's a government site, you will want to look into IAG (Information Age 
Government)
http://www.iagchampions.gov.uk/iagc/guidelines/websites/websites.htm

I've just been through the whole shebang with http://www.qca.org.uk/ (just 
went live last night.)
Also speak to the RNIB, they're VERY helpful.

Cheers
mk

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From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com  Thu Nov 23 09:08:50 2000
From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton)
Date: Thu Nov 23 09:08:50 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001123141344.00a986a0@pop.redroom.co.uk>
Message-ID: <27216.FFC%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>

> Zoe,
> 
> If it's a government site, you will want to look into IAG (Information Age
> Government)
> http://www.iagchampions.gov.uk/iagc/guidelines/websites/websites.htm
> 
> I've just been through the whole shebang with http://www.qca.org.uk/ (just
> went live last night.)
> Also speak to the RNIB, they're VERY helpful.

I've just looked at the QCA site - lovely on my Mac in IE 5, and I can see
everything on Mac IE 4.5 (although the tables do seem a bit messed up), but
I cannot change the size of the font.  If I had poor vision and needed large
text I would be angry at not being able to enlarge it to my requirements!!

On Mac NN 4.7 with default settings I cannot read any of the text it is far
too small.  I can however adjust the text size by going into the prefs, but
even so there is some text that will not enlarge and remains impossible to
read.  NN6 Mac seems to render the text reasonably, but things are a little
weird!! the rollovers work, but are very slow, and the scroll is funny!!!!
strange,,,, but may very likely be the fault NN6.

I haven't looked at any of it on a PC, but I take it that you have already
checked everything on a PC.

I am not critiquing your site, just hilighting a few of the very problems
that I am trying to address.

This is a nightmare of a situation really, we designers want some control
over the way our sites work/look, but we also need to provide some user
control yet without forcing them to make changes they shouldn't have to!!

Ohhhh, what to do..... what to do...!!   :-(

I have looked at the RNIB site.

Zoe

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 09:15:12 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Nov 23 09:15:12 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPEDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMOEPGDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

I wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> Try doing something like this:
>       <td width="100%" height="100" valign="bottom" align="center">Bottom

Poor choice of height value: this is *not* a percentage value.

Sorry for any confusion.

From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com  Thu Nov 23 09:18:36 2000
From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton)
Date: Thu Nov 23 09:18:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
In-Reply-To: <B642DA15.6AB0%andy.war@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <27516.FFD%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>

>> However, my boss does not like the default PC font size on most browsers, he
>> thinks it is too big and insists that I make it smaller.  My reaction was to
>> explain about accessibility, but he was insistant saying that if needed we
>> can add pages to the site later for those who wanted more control
>> themselves!!!! >:o(
> 
> At the risk of being flippant, is there any way to hack his PC (and any he
> looks at) so that /his/ default size is acceptable, and let it slide as is?
Er, no, he knows his computer stuff!!!!!
> 
>> I have spent lots of time looking at what is the best way to control font
>> sizes, but still giving users some control.  NOT easy!!!
> 
> :)
> 
>> I have read that many articles about:
>> 
>> 'Only use pt for font size'
>> 'never use pt for font size'
>> 'only use em for font size'
>> 'never use em for font size'
>> 'only use % for font size'
>> 'never use % for font size'
>> 
>> My head is realing with all the contradictory advice regarding font size and
>> accessibility, and I am still non the wiser!:o(
> 
> Personally I use ems, with a server-side browser detect to serve different
> CSS files depending on browser and platform. I'll tend to use a default em
> setting on the Mac side that I like the look/feel off, (eg. 0.9 em), then
> set up an identical style sheet for the PC with the point size approx. 20%
> smaller (eg. 0.75 em). That usually accounts for the size difference across
> platforms. Each style/size I set is an absolute em value, so that is is
> always in pro. to the browser's local settings, and stays in pro. to other
> text on the page.
I have a JavaScript browser detect to serve CSS files. I would like to use a
server-side cgi script, but I am not a script writer and have been unable to
find a suitable script anywhere - I have searched long and hard!!!!
However my JavaScript only provides for 4 different style sheets: PC IE, PC
NN, Mac IE and Mac NN.  I now feel that I should add Mac IE5 and up, and Mac
NN6 and up as these new Mac browsers tend to render fonts differently from
previous browsers on the Mac.  So I have the problem of finding a suitable
script.
I have considered using em, but again I have read that it is not good
practice to use em!!!
> 
> As I understand it, a value of 1 em on a browser set to 16pt size will give
> 16pt, while the same text with a 0.5 em value will give an 8pt size. On a
> browser with 12pt text, the same settings will give 12pt and 6pt. If that
> isn't strictly correct, that at least seems to be the case.
> 
> I have heard that ems on particular versions of Netscape screw up printing,
> but as I believe it is better to offer a "print version" of each page as
> plain, unstyled text, that is not an issue.
> 
>> I think I might use % as it seems to be the one element that still gives
>> users some control themselves. But if anyone has any better advice I am all
>> ears!!
> 
> If you need more details/examples of some of the things I've figured out for
> better accessability let me know.
I am always keen to know of anything for better accessibility as I am sure
it will definatelly become a major issue in the future.

Thanks Andy, for the input.
I am still not sure if I am any the wiser though  :o)
> 
>> I think it is important that these issues are dealt with as soon as possible
>> because it could eventually affect all of us.  I have downloaded the
>> Disability Discrimination Act, Code of Conduct and will read it as soon as I
>> get a chance.  Like Richard I will report on anything I find out.
> 
> I too have grabbed a copy and am studying it. Immediate questions arise
> about the section on manufacturers of goods do not need to worry as the
> store selling them is liable; do we - as 3rd party web designers - count as
> 'manufacturing' goods, that the client then offers as a service?
To be seen, to be seen........

Zoe

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zoe Oughton
zoe.oughton at btconnect.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 10:21:07 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Nov 23 10:21:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design (was Dropdowns - good or bad?)
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPDDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMIEPKDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

I wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> I have contacted the DDA Helpline and they have promised to come
> back to me
> with some guidance as to whether web sites are included.

They rang back.

At first they said that web sites weren't covered by the legislation.  We
spoke some more.  They checked again and then said that the sites could fall
into the 'services' category...

So, it appears that they don't know the answer themselves!

I asked them to confirm their advice so that I could dangle something in
front of the Clients.  They suggested the Code of Practice...

Is it any wonder we're all in disarray?

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 10:21:10 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Nov 23 10:21:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <01c05559$007fce00$c54e149a@default>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMGEPKDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

rudy noted:

> -----Original Message-----
> >Try doing something like this:
> >[snip]
> ><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
> charset=windows-1252">
> >[snip]
> >This seems to work on various flavours of browser and platform.
>
>
> hi richard
>
> um, that'll work fine on various flavours of *windows* platform
>
> i'd go with an iso charset
>
>   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
>
> sorry to jump on this little detail, i know your post was on a different
> topic, but i can't help myself sometimes...

Oops! Well spotted!

From david.braun at centralnet.ch  Thu Nov 23 11:24:25 2000
From: david.braun at centralnet.ch (david braun)
Date: Thu Nov 23 11:24:25 2000
Subject: [thelist] a blonde table question
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMOEPGDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20001123182439-r01010600-7793f726@193.246.199.133>

on the other hand, consider syntax: height-percentage is not allowed...
some browsers may not like such. (but I haven't seen any as of yet...)

david

Richard H. Morris <richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk> schrieb am 23.11.2000:

> I wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Try doing something like this:
> >       <td width="100%" height="100" valign="bottom" align="center">Bottom
> 
> Poor choice of height value: this is *not* a percentage value.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> Richard. H. Morris, Web Designers Limited
> ~~ http://www.web-designers.co.uk ~~
> "I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me
>           than a full frontal lobotomy"
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From mcollins206 at home.com  Thu Nov 23 11:27:36 2000
From: mcollins206 at home.com (Michael Collins)
Date: Thu Nov 23 11:27:36 2000
Subject: [thelist] jfax vs. efax
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKGEOKDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
References: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKGEOKDJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <p04310101b64303eb0bde@[192.168.1.2]>

I have been using efax for over a year now and it has been completely reliable.

Michael
--

_/ _/ _/ _/ Michael Collins
_/ _/ _/    Equinox Enterprises
_/ _/       Seattle, WA, USA
_/          mcollins206 at home.com

From mcollins206 at home.com  Thu Nov 23 11:42:51 2000
From: mcollins206 at home.com (Michael Collins)
Date: Thu Nov 23 11:42:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] individual health insurance
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
References: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com>
Message-ID: <p04310100b643039ff9f4@[192.168.1.2]>

At 8:38 AM -0800 11/21/00, A. Erickson wrote:
>  In order to do that, though, I'll need to set
>up my own health insurance. Anyone have any recommendations or personal
>experience to share on that?

WA state, where I live, has been having a health care crises and it 
is very expensive and difficult to find health insurance as a small 
business with no group plan. You almost have to be with some company 
or other. I found one plan at the National Association for the 
Self-Employed. http://www.nase.org/ but it was over $500 a month with 
a huge annual deductible and high copays.

Believe it or not, if you have a Costco in your area and you get an 
executive membership you can sign up for group health insurance. In 
WA State it is with First Choice Health, I don't know if it is the 
same elsewhere since health insurance is always state by state. I 
thought at first it was funny to shop for health insurance at Costco 
but the whole family was covered last year for roughly $350 a month 
(if you are younger it will be less). It really paid off as office 
visits were $10 copay a visit, the hospital deductible is only $100 
per day and all tests and procedures are covered. Medications were 
covered as well with a lower price if you got it at Costco. There is 
no annual deductible which is great. For example, we paid $300 for my 
wife's entire pregnancy, including pre and post natal care, hospital 
expenses, and a Cesarian birth. We also are allowed to choose our own 
Doctor from a very wide list, including some that have been rated as 
the best pediatricians and Family care practitioners in Seattle.

Unfortunately, this year First Choice realized how much this was 
costing and Costco had to raise their rates 20% and office visits are 
now $20. It is still a good deal compared to other options.

Michael
--

_/ _/ _/ _/ Michael Collins
_/ _/ _/    Equinox Enterprises
_/ _/       Seattle, WA, USA
_/          mcollins206 at home.com

From bmonchka at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 23 16:47:24 2000
From: bmonchka at hotmail.com (Barret A Monchka)
Date: Thu Nov 23 16:47:24 2000
Subject: [thelist] cannot play sound in IE
Message-ID: <F158EpjwGXSXCWV8S0g00003438@hotmail.com>

I have a script that plays a sound when a link is clicked on.  The sound 
only plays in Netscape not in IE.  Below is the code for the web site, If 
anyone knows how I could play the sound in IE as well please let me know.

<html>
<head>
<title>Sound onclick</title>

var aySound = new Array();
aySound[0] = "click.wav";

document.write('<BGSOUND ID="auIEContainer">')
IE = (navigator.appVersion.indexOf("MSIE")!=-1 && document.all)? 1:0;
NS = (navigator.appName=="Netscape" && navigator.plugins["LiveAudio"])? 1:0;
ver4 = IE||NS? 1:0;
onload=auPreload;

<A HREF="javascript:playSound(0,'page.htm');">Click here to play sound</A>

</body>
</html>

TIA,

Barret Monchka
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From garizpe at network.com.mx  Thu Nov 23 17:46:29 2000
From: garizpe at network.com.mx (Gustavo Arizpe)
Date: Thu Nov 23 17:46:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] PHP Version
References: <LPBBLLEKICHKINCHGBMKKENADJAA.amanda@gawow.com> <p04310100b643039ff9f4@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <000901c055a7$9a9613c0$0100000a@area>

How can I know which version of PHP is being run in my webhost?
Thanks,

Gustavo

From mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com  Thu Nov 23 18:02:35 2000
From: mfischer at e-fishsolutions.com (Matthew Fischer)
Date: Thu Nov 23 18:02:35 2000
Subject: [thelist] PHP Version
In-Reply-To: <000901c055a7$9a9613c0$0100000a@area>
Message-ID: <20001123190252-r01010600-4e1e383c@24.18.139.115>

Save the following as a page on your server, then view it in a browser and it will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

<? php phpinfo(); ?>

</BODY>
</HTML>

On 11/23/00 at 5:46 PM, garizpe at network.com.mx (Gustavo Arizpe) wrote:

> How can I know which version of PHP is being run in my webhost?
> Thanks,
> 
> Gustavo
--

From palyne at sciencehorizon.com  Thu Nov 23 18:36:29 2000
From: palyne at sciencehorizon.com (Palyne Gaenir)
Date: Thu Nov 23 18:36:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] Help? Pop-up Java using image?
In-Reply-To: <20001123180019.357043F118@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3A1D638B.426.1A9B0B2@localhost>

Dear Evoltians,

I have a site I inherited that uses a java application called with a 
certain applet code (below). The only variables that change are the 
potential data file which may or may not be pulled into the 
application (I'll feed this in with an IF statement in CF).  
Currently the applet is using a plain form button to pop itself up 
into a new window (part of the application).  I know how to disable 
the button and/or make it pop up without it.  But I need to use an 
image to pop it up instead of the button. I know zero about java and 
I don't understand how to work an image into a parameter line for an 
applet -- or whatever other solution I should be using.  Can anybody 
help??  
Eternally grateful,
Palyne  (code below)

From jayfitz at bayou.com  Thu Nov 23 21:17:37 2000
From: jayfitz at bayou.com (Jay Fitzgerald)
Date: Thu Nov 23 21:17:37 2000
Subject: [thelist] PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <3A1DDD38.F2463AC@bayou.com>

Does anyone know of a fairly decent web admin interface/wrapper for
Postgres?

From rcamden at allaire.com  Thu Nov 23 21:34:19 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Thu Nov 23 21:34:19 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20001123135434.02511760@smtp.vardus.net>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEICEPMFIAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

Instead of ?var=val&var2=val2, use this format:

foo.cfm/var/val/var2/val2

Then, examine the CGI.PATH_INFO variable to parse your date. In the example
I used above, you would parse out the current template, foo.cfm, then loop
through each element and assign a variable name and variable value.

So, a real example:

press_release.cfm/id/300/method/display

Would tell press_release.cfm that the ID is 300 and the method is display.

I've attached a custom tag that will automatically translate /var/val into
URL.VAR=Val. Note, however, that the tag is pretty old and may not be the
best code.

P.S. Of course, this isn't really a Spectra or ColdFusion problem, it's a
spider problem. ASP and PHP sites will have the same issues with spiders.
Does anyone here actually know someone who works for one of these companies?
I'd love to hear a good reason for NOT indexing ?var=val type URLs,
especially in this day and age.

path2url.cfm:
<CFSET PATH =
REReplace(CGI.PATH_INFO,".*#ListLast(CGI.CF_TEMPLATE_PATH,"\")#","")>

<CFIF ListLen(Path,"/") GTE 2>
	<CFLOOP INDEX="X" FROM="1" TO="#ListLen(Path,"/")#" STEP="2">
		<CFTRY>
			<CFSET "URL.#ListGetAt(Path,X,"/")#" = ListGetAt(Path,X+1,"/")>
			<CFCATCH>
			</CFCATCH>
		</CFTRY>
	</CFLOOP>
<CFELSEIF Path IS NOT "/">
	<CFSET Path = Replace(Path,"/","")>
	<CFSET "URL.#Path#" = True>
</CFIF>
=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Peter Van Dijck
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 8:57 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
>
>
> Am I correct to think that SE's don't spider URL's with querystrings? And
> if so, in many sites, if we want them to be spidered we need to give it
> url's without querystrings? (like wired.com)
> The approach we're taking is this:
> we are building a Spectra site with lots of daily articles, e.g.
> there will
> be URL's.
> However, we make a daily copy of these articles into normal url's.
> Then, we will submit a page with links to these url's to the se's.
> That shold work.
> Am I missing a better way, or anything???
> Thanks guys!!
> Peter (sick and speccing)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From adrian at logo-logic.com  Thu Nov 23 22:29:20 2000
From: adrian at logo-logic.com (Adrian Fischer)
Date: Thu Nov 23 22:29:20 2000
Subject: [thelist] fetchrow_arrayref and packages
Message-ID: <00f501c055cf$114500e0$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au>

Hi Gang,

Can someone please tell me why this:
<snip>
 $dbh=$db->prepare("SELECT docId,docPassword,docEmail,docAccountEnd FROM
tblDockets WHERE docAccountEnd <=  $current_time  AND docClosed=0 ");
$dbh->execute();
while ($varDBInfo = $dbh->fetchrow_arrayref) {
</snip>

would return this:

Can't call method "fetchrow_arrayref" without a package or object reference
at dockets.pl line 769

I have tried to work out what the object or package is but am stumped.

Much appreciated

Adrian

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Thu Nov 23 22:57:28 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Thu Nov 23 22:57:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] Any Flash 5 Programmers looking for work?
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001123225004.00ad32d0@redhotsweeps.com>

Hello all,

Hope turkey day was good to you.  I have a slot machine game that I would 
like written in Flash 5.  If you have flash/graphics exp, please send me 
your rates and resume off-list.

Thanks

Chris

From dsmah at home.com  Fri Nov 24 00:06:15 2000
From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah)
Date: Fri Nov 24 00:06:15 2000
Subject: [thelist] fetchrow_arrayref and packages
In-Reply-To: <00f501c055cf$114500e0$d6b32dcb@qld.bigpond.net.au> from "Adrian Fischer" at Nov 24, 2000 02:28:43 PM
Message-ID: <200011240607.XAA01785@alice.monkeyland.ca>

Have you connected to the database and put the database handle into
$db?  Have you checked the return values from prepare() and execute()?
Can you show some more context or e-mail the script so that I can take
a look at it?

Dean

Adrian Fischer writes:

> Can someone please tell me why this:
> <snip>
>  $dbh=$db->prepare("SELECT docId,docPassword,docEmail,docAccountEnd FROM
> tblDockets WHERE docAccountEnd <=  $current_time  AND docClosed=0 ");
> $dbh->execute();
> while ($varDBInfo = $dbh->fetchrow_arrayref) {
> </snip>
> 
> would return this:
> 
> Can't call method "fetchrow_arrayref" without a package or object reference
> at dockets.pl line 769
> 
> I have tried to work out what the object or package is but am stumped.
> 
> Much appreciated

From sck at biljettpoolen.se  Fri Nov 24 01:19:02 2000
From: sck at biljettpoolen.se (Steve Cook)
Date: Fri Nov 24 01:19:02 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5205E64C@SBS>

One reason I know of for not indexing "?var=val type URLs", is that the
variables can be used by unscrupulous site owners to "spam" search engines.
A pr0n site for instance can create an endless range of pages, all with
subtle differences and with different querystrings in the URL - from just
one page! Detecting the differences between that and the different results
generated by a legitimate database driven site is almost impossible.

Also, think about what is the difference between
"?page=results1&template=dark" and "?page=results1&template=light"? In
effect they are probably the same page, simply with a different colour
scheme, but who knows? This is a trivial example, but it could lead to the
indexing of huge amounts of redundant information. If you searched for
"database tutorials" in Google and were presented with 200 pages of results
where 80% are the same page from a database generated site sorted in
different ways, you would soon start to think the system was breaking down
:-)

Of course it's quite possible that many of these obstacles could be overcome
with clever indexing techniques, but the nature of some people is to abuse
the system and it's pretty certain that indexing query_strings would lead to
a huge increase in search engine spamming.

Just my 2 ?re!

.steve

----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raymond K. Camden [mailto:rcamden at allaire.com]
> Sent: den 24 november 2000 04:36
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
<SNIP>
> 
> P.S. Of course, this isn't really a Spectra or ColdFusion 
> problem, it's a
> spider problem. ASP and PHP sites will have the same issues 
> with spiders.
> Does anyone here actually know someone who works for one of 
> these companies?
> I'd love to hear a good reason for NOT indexing ?var=val type URLs,
> especially in this day and age.
>

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Fri Nov 24 07:12:07 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Fri Nov 24 07:12:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
Message-ID: <802569A1.0033B85A.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

+1 on that, Mike:
http://www.rnib.org.uk/digital/welcome.htm
(specifically
http://www.rnib.org.uk/digital/webshop.htm)

Talk to Julie Howell: jhowell at rnib.org.uk

Though remember, disability is more than just sight impairment.

Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  Re: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design

Also speak to the RNIB, they're VERY helpful.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Fri Nov 24 07:12:14 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Fri Nov 24 07:12:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design
Message-ID: <802569A1.0033B85A.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
cc:

Subject:  Re: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design

>I also think this is an issue which we need to address.  I have recently
>started to redesign a government department
>web site, and I am keen for it to
>be fully accessible but visually appealing.

Theoretically, ems should be the way to do this. Shame it doesn't work.

>However, my boss does not like the default PC font size on most browsers, he
>thinks it is too big and insists that I make it smaller.

First time I've ever heard that complaint. Show it to him on a Mac...

>My reaction was to
>explain about accessibility, but he was insistant saying that if needed we
>can add pages to the site later for those who wanted more control
>themselves!!!! >:o(
2 issues here:
1) The point about accessiblity is that it gives control to the *user*, rather
than
   the designer. Web != Print
2) If you have a range of users adding content to a site later, then you *are*
in
   content management system territory. Content owners shouldn't get control
   over the presentation of their content (beyond micro-formatting - strong,
links,
   choice from a style palette), otherwise you will lose consistency of design
  (and therefore usability) across the site.

>I have spent lots of time looking at what is the best way to control font
>sizes, but still giving users some control.  NOT easy!!!
Have you seen Aardie's solution:
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=253

I've done a Perl/SSI version, which I will write up as soon as I have some time
at home (working away 5 days a week atm), running at
http://www.easyweb.co.uk/

>My head is realing with all the contradictory advice regarding font size and
>accessibility, and I am still non the wiser!:o(
Have you read the W3 WAI guidelines?
http://www.w3.org/WAI/

>I think it is important that these issues are dealt with as soon as possible
>because it could eventually affect all of us.  I have downloaded the
>Disability Discrimination Act, Code of Conduct and will read it as soon as I
>get a chance.  Like Richard I will report on anything I find out.

I went through it in the summer, together with the lawyers advising the
eCommerce
company I was working for, and their strong advice was that satisfying the
Priority 1 items on the WAI list would cover the strict legal risks. The
reputational
risks are a bit more woolly, though, and any web designer/developer working
on UK sites providing 'public services'(1) would be well advised to be preparing
a migration plan towards full accessibility. Note that this doesn't mean you
have to do it all tomorrow, or indeed in one go. Some areas will be easier to
introduce than others - it's a matter of timetabling.

Again, this is something I will write up for thesite as soon as I get time.
Cheers
Martin

(1) Illustrative but not exclusive list:
   Local councils
   Govt depts & agencies
   The emergency services
   Charities
   Voluntary organisations
   hotels
   restaurants
   pubs
   post offices
   banks
   building societies
   solicitors
   accountants
   telcos and broadcasting orgs
   public utilities (electricity, gas, water etc)
   national parks
   sports stadia
   leisure centres
   advice agencies
   theatres
   cinemas
   hairdressers
   shops
   market stalls
   petrol stations
   telesales businesses
   places of worship
   courts
   hospitals
   clinics
whether the organisation is a
   sole trader
   firm
   company
   organisation

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

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From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Fri Nov 24 07:13:54 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Fri Nov 24 07:13:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
Message-ID: <802569A1.0033BB07.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Hi Ray

It's because (theoretically) such pages are not static, they can change their
content
and therefore may not be reliably indexed in any storage system which spiders
irregularly. Of course, this is true of probably most web pages...

The worst case is when the query string contains a session variable (many
Broadvision sites, and others too), which when invalid, returns an error.

It's only been fairly recently that sites have been built as an application,
using
query strings to pick content assets.

Cheers
Martin

PS when we going to see a Spectra 2 to keep up with the enormous development
in the CMS market in the last year? It's now 18 months since the announcement of
Spectra 1, and 12 since its release. Please tell me it's not waiting for the CF
move
to Java. I've now punted Spectra to several large clients so far (pre PwC), and
it's
never made it past the 1st round of diligence. Do Tech Strat people have shares
in
BV & Vignette development houses? Enquiring minds want to know

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  RE: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Fri Nov 24 07:23:22 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Fri Nov 24 07:23:22 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design (was
 Dropdowns - good or bad?)
Message-ID: <802569A1.0033BAA1.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

My (IANL) reading of the CoP, and the reading of the legislation by pretty hot
lawyers I've
worked with suggests that web sites are not excluded, therefore they are covered
by Section21.

The legislation is cast in very broad terms so as not to allow loopholes by
future developments
(like, say, a global communications infrastructure).

Note that the requirement is to make 'reasonable adjustments' (again,
undefined), which the
advice I've had is to interpret this in terms of the WAI priority1 requirements.

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  RE: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design (was
      Dropdowns - good or bad?)

I wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> I have contacted the DDA Helpline and they have promised to come
> back to me
> with some guidance as to whether web sites are included.

They rang back.

At first they said that web sites weren't covered by the legislation.  We
spoke some more.  They checked again and then said that the sites could fall
into the 'services' category...

So, it appears that they don't know the answer themselves!

I asked them to confirm their advice so that I could dangle something in
front of the Clients.  They suggested the Code of Practice...

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From k.spice at acu.ac.uk  Fri Nov 24 08:54:13 2000
From: k.spice at acu.ac.uk (Katherine Spice)
Date: Fri Nov 24 08:54:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Browser detection and style sheets
References: <2234F.FDB%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <3A1E812B.636A35DF@acu.ac.uk>

Hi Zoe,

Zoe Oughton wrote:

> I currently use different style sheets for windows IE, windows NN, Mac IE
> and Mac NN.

<snip>

> Am I the only one who wants different style sheets depending on platform as
> well as browser????

I'm curious why you want to do this in the first place?  Also, don't
forget that Mac and Win are not the only OS's in the world (although it
might feel like it :-) - I'm running NN on Linux - what would I see if I
visited your page?

Katherine

From zoe.oughton at btconnect.com  Fri Nov 24 09:02:44 2000
From: zoe.oughton at btconnect.com (Zoe Oughton)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:02:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <802569A1.0033BAA1.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>
Message-ID: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>

Hi listees

I am building a new web site for an organisation.  The site will eventually
be big, and I expect that I will get requests for site wide changes in the
future :o(

To make such site management easier I am incorporating SSI for standard
sections of each web page, the header, the footer, and some side bar
navigation links.  This will enable me to make changes in only a few files
rather than every page on the site.  Sensible site management yes????

Now, it has come to my understanding that some people within my organisation
will occasionally require a copy of the web site on a laptop hard drive - so
that the site can be viewed without internet access.

However, the SSI sections of each web page can only be seen when the site is
viewed via the host server.  The SSI bits of code cannot be viewed when the
browser is reading the page from the computer hard drive.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting around this problem???
Is there anyway for getting the SSI to work when the site is on the computer
hard drive???

I would really appreciate some help on this.

Zoe

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zoe Oughton
zoe.oughton at btconnect.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From jonathan.lim at netdecisions.co.uk  Fri Nov 24 09:05:54 2000
From: jonathan.lim at netdecisions.co.uk (Jonathan Lim)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:05:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] fetchrow_arrayref and packages
Message-ID: <87FD00CAD4B5D411A6920001022553A816316A@UKLDNSS03>

Just a thought, have you put
use DBI;
somewhere before this?

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Fischer [mailto:adrian at logo-logic.com]
Sent: 24 November 2000 04:29
To: The List 
Subject: [thelist] fetchrow_arrayref and packages

Hi Gang,

would return this:

Can't call method "fetchrow_arrayref" without a package or object reference
at dockets.pl line 769

I have tried to work out what the object or package is but am stumped.

Much appreciated

Adrian

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From amckaig at masterfile.com  Fri Nov 24 09:09:04 2000
From: amckaig at masterfile.com (Angie McKaig)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:09:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <ECENIIIJCHNJJHFGIAOEGEOACJAA.amckaig@masterfile.com>

Hi Zoe,

Assuming these laptops are running some flavor of Windoze, you can download
and install PWS (Personal Web Server) from the Microsoft site, put the
"copy" of the site off the web root. IIRC, PWS can process SSI just as well
as a more robust web server, and leave a much smaller footprint.

Hope that helps,

Angie McKaig
 fun @ http://www.pathwaytodarkness.com/
work @ http://www.masterfile.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Zoe Oughton
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1904 3:17 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design

Hi listees

I am building a new web site for an organisation.  The site will eventually
be big, and I expect that I will get requests for site wide changes in the
future :o(

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting around this problem???
Is there anyway for getting the SSI to work when the site is on the computer
hard drive???

I would really appreciate some help on this.

Zoe

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zoe Oughton
zoe.oughton at btconnect.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From peter at vardus.com  Fri Nov 24 09:12:10 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:12:10 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
References: <802569A1.0033BAA1.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20001124150951.0252b670@smtp.vardus.net>

>Does anyone have any suggestions for getting around this problem???
>Is there anyway for getting the SSI to work when the site is on the computer
>hard drive???

2 solutions:

1. install apache on the laptop (easy) and watch the website like that.
2. run a program that 'leeches' the website e.g. goes through it and makes 
a copy of it. Can be found as free software.

First solution is good and maybe easier to update. Second solution is 
easier (installing apache isn't hard, but the client has to remember to run 
it before looking at their site).

Good luck,
Peter

From peter at vardus.com  Fri Nov 24 09:21:16 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:21:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] free tip mySQL
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20001124150951.0252b670@smtp.vardus.net>
References: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
 <802569A1.0033BAA1.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20001124151719.024e0880@smtp.vardus.net>

<tip type="mysql">
In mySQL, on the command line you can do this:
explain SELECT * FROM table
or whatever query you want. MySQL will then explain you how it will get 
these results. It's great for optimising query's. How cool is that?
</tip>

From k.spice at acu.ac.uk  Fri Nov 24 09:22:18 2000
From: k.spice at acu.ac.uk (Katherine Spice)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:22:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
References: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <3A1E87C0.9AE2FB6D@acu.ac.uk>

Zoe Oughton wrote:

> However, the SSI sections of each web page can only be seen when the site is
> viewed via the host server.  The SSI bits of code cannot be viewed when the
> browser is reading the page from the computer hard drive.
>

SSI = Server Side Includes

The server parses the files which have the appropriate extension
(usually, but not always, .shtml, as defined in your .htaccess), and
substitutes the <--#include.....> for the appropriate
HTML/text/whatever, _before_ the page is sent to the browser.

Really, the only way round this is to install a webserver on each of the
laptops...of course you could save the HTML pages to each laptop from
the browser (and use the same directory structure for images .js and
.css files etc, so your links still work) but it's a high maintenance
fix.

HTH,

Katherine

From jayfitz at bayou.com  Fri Nov 24 09:26:56 2000
From: jayfitz at bayou.com (Jay Fitzgerald)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:26:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] PostgreSQL
Message-ID: <3A1E88F6.A3F45181@bayou.com>

Does anyone know of a web interface to PostgreSQL?

--
Jay Fitzgerald - Web Development/Sales
=============================================
Bayou Internet
http://www.bayou.com
Mississippi Internet
http://www.mississippi.net
Vicksburg Online
http://www.vicksburg.com
Bama Online
http://www.bamaonline.net
=============================================
ICQ: 38823829      Phone: 888-302-2968       Fax: 877-329-2296

From john.pye at purplehouse.com  Fri Nov 24 09:33:49 2000
From: john.pye at purplehouse.com (John Pye)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:33:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] Double size quicktime?
In-Reply-To: <3A1E88F6.A3F45181@bayou.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLCMIGMEBKICGDGPGAEFNCBAA.john.pye@purplehouse.com>

Hello all

Can anyone out there tell me if it is possible to embed a QuickTime move on
a web page but to have it show at double-size?

I have used <EMBED... width=... height=...> but that just enlarges the area
allotted to the embedded object, no stretching.

Cheers!

John

www.creativebase.com

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Fri Nov 24 09:39:59 2000
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:39:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] UK: Disability Discrimination and Web Site Design (wasDropdowns - good or bad?)
In-Reply-To: <802569A1.0033BAA1.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMMEAIDPAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>

martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com responded:

> -----Original Message-----
> My (IANL) reading of the CoP, and the reading of the legislation
> by pretty hot
> lawyers I've
> worked with suggests that web sites are not excluded, therefore
> they are covered
> by Section21.

I've since taken this up with the Disability Rights Commission for their
definitive answer.

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Fri Nov 24 09:50:03 2000
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Fri Nov 24 09:50:03 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
Message-ID: <802569A1.00563732.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Zoe

If they're using Win98/NT machines, Personal Web Server should cover it.
There was also a PWS install option with MacOS8+

In the unlikely event that they've got Unix, then Apache is your friend.

Cheers
Martin

Please respond to thelist at lists.evolt.org
To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org
cc:

Subject:  [thelist] Using SSI for site design

Hi listees

I am building a new web site for an organisation.  The site will eventually
be big, and I expect that I will get requests for site wide changes in the
future :o(

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting around this problem???
Is there anyway for getting the SSI to work when the site is on the computer
hard drive???

I would really appreciate some help on this.

Zoe

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zoe Oughton
zoe.oughton at btconnect.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

From peter at vardus.com  Fri Nov 24 10:48:04 2000
From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck)
Date: Fri Nov 24 10:48:04 2000
Subject: [thelist] funky forms
In-Reply-To: <3A1DDD38.F2463AC@bayou.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20001124164615.0251d480@smtp.vardus.net>

I was playing with funky forms for interface design,
here's some examples:
http://www.poorbuthappy.com/usability/formdesign/
what funky / useful stuff have I missed?
thanks!
Peter

From rcamden at allaire.com  Fri Nov 24 10:48:08 2000
From: rcamden at allaire.com (Raymond K. Camden)
Date: Fri Nov 24 10:48:08 2000
Subject: [thelist] SE spidering spectra URL's
In-Reply-To: <802569A1.0033BB07.00@intleursmtp10.uk.pw.com>
Message-ID: <HAENKEFLHMLPLLFPNMEIOEALFJAA.rcamden@allaire.com>

Have you read about Spectra 1.5? Check out
http://www.allaire.com/handlers/index.cfm?ID=18298

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Allaire

Email   : jedimaster at allaire.com
ICQ UIN : 3679482

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> PS when we going to see a Spectra 2 to keep up with the enormous
> development
> in the CMS market in the last year? It's now 18 months since the
> announcement of
> Spectra 1, and 12 since its release. Please tell me it's not
> waiting for the CF
> move
> to Java. I've now punted Spectra to several large clients so far
> (pre PwC), and
> it's
> never made it past the 1st round of diligence. Do Tech Strat
> people have shares
> in
> BV & Vignette development houses? Enquiring minds want to know
>
>

From hblair at bigfoot.com  Fri Nov 24 10:53:47 2000
From: hblair at bigfoot.com (Hugh Blair)
Date: Fri Nov 24 10:53:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJJHMEOLIMKIKIOMJCEENIDAA.hblair@bigfoot.com>

Uh, the first thing you should do is enter the year 2000.  Or do you just like
living in the horse and buggy era?
-Hugh

> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1904 2:17 PM
----------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^--------

From chris at lonondweb.net  Fri Nov 24 11:03:17 2000
From: chris at lonondweb.net (Chris Hayes)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:03:17 2000
Subject: [thelist] Java Video Streaming
Message-ID: <3a1e9f5c$1@fuseware.com>

I'm getting sick of the RealPlayer installation.  It's a 10MB download and a
registration process which I can only assume is meant as a deterrent.

Does anyone know of any robust Java-based video streaming technologies?  (Or
any other user-friendly ideas)

I am looking for something like Emblaze VideoPro, but not that.  It just has
a light applet and you encode an AVI file for streaming.  It's ideal, but
they just put a price tag on it which...
I can only assume is meant as a deterrent :-)

Thanx in advance.

Tips in the post.

From sebastien at oven.com  Fri Nov 24 11:05:21 2000
From: sebastien at oven.com (Seb Barre)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:05:21 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJJHMEOLIMKIKIOMJCEENIDAA.hblair@bigfoot.com>
References: <3C046.104B%zoe.oughton@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124115357.02478268@pop.oven.com>

At 10:53 AM 11/24/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Uh, the first thing you should do is enter the year 2000.  Or do you just like
>living in the horse and buggy era?

I think that's an unfair comment.  SSI is still a very viable solution for 
many sites.  Not everyone has the time/money/expertise to set up a dynamic 
site, whether it be done with ASP/PHP/CFM or whatever else.

For a corporate site (of reasonable size) consisting mostly of static 
documents and information, SSI is a very elegant solution for maintaining 
consistent structure throughout the site and making site-wide changes with 
little effort.  It is also supported by any decent webserver and is usually 
available at no additional cost from hosting providers.  Throw in a couple 
of small off-the-shelf or custom CGIs for extra functionality (counters, 
form mailers, etc) and some PDF documents for offline reading of corporate 
documentation, and you've got a very efficient, low-cost and easily 
maintainable site, which is really the ultimate goal in most cases.

The mere existence of a technology is not an excuse to use it. =)  You have 
to examine your needs and choose the most appropriate solution, even if 
it's not the 'flavour of the month' one.

--- -- -
Seb Barre - seb at oven.com
OVEN Digital Toronto
Work: 416-595-9750 x 222
Mobile: 416-254-5078
http://www.oven.com/

From sebastien at oven.com  Fri Nov 24 11:08:18 2000
From: sebastien at oven.com (Seb Barre)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:08:18 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <802569A1.00563732.00@uk-emamta003.ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124120216.02370550@pop.oven.com>

At 03:41 PM 11/24/2000 +0000, you wrote:

>Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers
>
>-------------------- Start of message text --------------------
>
>Zoe
>
>If they're using Win98/NT machines, Personal Web Server should cover it.
>There was also a PWS install option with MacOS8+
>
>In the unlikely event that they've got Unix, then Apache is your friend.

Apache can be your friend in Win32 environments too.  I've been running the 
Win32 version of Apache on various Microsoft OSes for a few years now, 
without problem, as a development/testing/presentation webserver.  I've 
even gotten Java Servlets running on Apache on a Win95 machine with JRun.

I wouldn't recommend it for a production environment, but it's definitely a 
good solution for a personal webserver on your workstation.

From ed at nolans.net  Fri Nov 24 11:09:56 2000
From: ed at nolans.net (Ed Nolan)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:09:56 2000
Subject: [thelist] cfoutput query
Message-ID: <002e01c05639$78c86ee0$aad44240@pluto>

Greetings,

Does ANYBODY know a way of performing the equivalent of a "nested query
output".  Possibly I can illustrate the question better by providing a
simple example.

<cfquery name="check" datasource="dsn">
     SELECT  client.checkvalue AS checkvalue, client.othervalue.AS
othervalue
     FROM client
     WHERE checkvalue = #somevalue#
     </cfquery>

     <cfoutput query="displayvalue" group="somevalue">
     This displays of all of the occurrences of the #check.checkvalue#
variable.
     Based on the value of this variable, the variable #getother# should be
displayed for each records where "getother" is the respective value from
another table.

Supposing, the cfoutput returns three records for the #check.checkvalue#
variable.  Each occurrence of the #check.checkvalue#  variable needs to be
displayed with the respective #getother# which resides in another table.

The challenge is that the #getother# variable is the result of a query from
another table.  I would combine it with the initial "check" query but the
value of the "getother" variable is dependent upon the results of the
"check" query.

My question: How can I query and display the respective #getother# value for
each record returned from the "checkvalue" cfoutput?

Any suggestions, leads or shreds of evidence greatly appreciated.  Please
and thanks in advance for anything you can throw this way.

--- Ed Nolan

From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 24 11:18:47 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:18:47 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124115357.02478268@pop.oven.com>
References: <NBBBJJHMEOLIMKIKIOMJCEENIDAA.hblair@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <200011241718.eAOHIkh26995@farmer.oracular.com>

> From: Seb Barre <sebastien at oven.com>
>
> >Uh, the first thing you should do is enter the year 2000.  Or do you just like
> >living in the horse and buggy era?
> 
> I think that's an unfair comment.  SSI is still a very viable solution for 
> many sites.  Not everyone has the time/money/expertise to set up a dynamic 
> site, whether it be done with ASP/PHP/CFM or whatever else.

he was referring to the date in the guy's email message

From sebastien at oven.com  Fri Nov 24 11:24:48 2000
From: sebastien at oven.com (Seb Barre)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:24:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <200011241718.eAOHIkh26995@farmer.oracular.com>
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124115357.02478268@pop.oven.com>
 <NBBBJJHMEOLIMKIKIOMJCEENIDAA.hblair@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124122056.05361bb0@pop.oven.com>

At 12:18 PM 11/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:
> > From: Seb Barre <sebastien at oven.com>
> >
> > >Uh, the first thing you should do is enter the year 2000.  Or do you 
> just like
> > >living in the horse and buggy era?
> >
> > I think that's an unfair comment.  SSI is still a very viable solution for
> > many sites.  Not everyone has the time/money/expertise to set up a dynamic
> > site, whether it be done with ASP/PHP/CFM or whatever else.
>
>he was referring to the date in the guy's email message

Doh haha..  oh well, hopefully my info on SSI is still useful to someone. =)

>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

--- -- -
Seb Barre - seb at oven.com
OVEN Digital Toronto
Work: 416-595-9750 x 222
Mobile: 416-254-5078
http://www.oven.com/

From chris at londonweb.net  Fri Nov 24 11:24:59 2000
From: chris at londonweb.net (Chris Hayes)
Date: Fri Nov 24 11:24:59 2000
Subject: [thelist] cfoutput query
References: <002e01c05639$78c86ee0$aad44240@pluto>
Message-ID: <054f01c0563b$7c3c26f0$2800a8c0@londonweb.net>

Think something like this might work, if I understand the problem.

SELECT  client.checkvalue AS checkvalue, client.othervalue.AS, othervalue,
getother
FROM client INNER JOIN otherTable ON client.checkvalue= otherTable.getother;

The query is then populated with your getother field values

HTH

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Nolan" <ed at nolans.net>
Newsgroups: evolt
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 5:10 PM
Subject: [thelist] cfoutput query

> Greetings,
>
> Does ANYBODY know a way of performing the equivalent of a "nested query
> output".  Possibly I can illustrate the question better by providing a
> simple example.
>
> 
> 
>      <cfquery name="check" datasource="dsn">
>      SELECT  client.checkvalue AS checkvalue, client.othervalue.AS
> othervalue
>      FROM client
>      WHERE checkvalue = #somevalue#
>      </cfquery>
> 
>      <cfoutput query="displayvalue" group="somevalue">
>      This displays of all of the occurrences of the #check.checkvalue#
> variable.
>      Based on the value of this variable, the variable #getother# should
be
> displayed for each records where "getother" is the respective value from
> another table.
> 
>
> Supposing, the cfoutput returns three records for the #check.checkvalue#
> variable.  Each occurrence of the #check.checkvalue#  variable needs to be
> displayed with the respective #getother# which resides in another table.
>
> The challenge is that the #getother# variable is the result of a query
from
> another table.  I would combine it with the initial "check" query but the
> value of the "getother" variable is dependent upon the results of the
> "check" query.
>
> My question: How can I query and display the respective #getother# value
for
> each record returned from the "checkvalue" cfoutput?
>
> Any suggestions, leads or shreds of evidence greatly appreciated.  Please
> and thanks in advance for anything you can throw this way.
>
> --- Ed Nolan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From hblair at bigfoot.com  Fri Nov 24 12:22:41 2000
From: hblair at bigfoot.com (Hugh Blair)
Date: Fri Nov 24 12:22:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] Using SSI for site design
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124122056.05361bb0@pop.oven.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJJHMEOLIMKIKIOMJOEFCIDAA.hblair@bigfoot.com>

> >he was referring to the date in the guy's email message
>
> Doh haha..  oh well, hopefully my info on SSI is still useful to someone. =)

Absolutely.  You prompted me to go back and find places where it would help my
building process.

I just got cranky because my date-sorted list was mucked up with a message from
!! 1904 !!.

-Hugh

From sebastien at oven.com  Fri Nov 24 12:39:29 2000
From: sebastien at oven.com (Seb Barre)
Date: Fri Nov 24 12:39:29 2000
Subject: [thelist] browser market share?
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001124133446.05361bb0@pop.oven.com>

I remember someone asking about browser market share stats a while back.

Found this on ZDNet, apologies if it was posted recently, I haven't been 
keeping tabs on the list as much as usual due to being stupidly busy @work.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2656364,00.html

In a nutshell:  Internet Explorer -> ~90% market share.

--- -- -
Seb Barre - seb at oven.com
OVEN Digital Toronto
Work: 416-595-9750 x 222
Mobile: 416-254-5078
http://www.oven.com/

From Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca  Fri Nov 24 13:01:40 2000
From: Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca (Rudy_Limeback at maritimelife.ca)
Date: Fri Nov 24 13:01:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] cfoutput query
Message-ID: <OFF285D755.98A9C68E-ON852569A1.0061C16B@1.10.196>

> Does ANYBODY know a way of performing the equivalent of a 
> "nested query output".  Possibly I can illustrate ...

hi ed

yes, you'll want a join query as chris pointed out

<tip>
be careful using a table name like "client" as it may lead to confusion 
with cold fusion client variables when you qualify a table column. e.g. 
client.checkvalue
</tip>

here's your query, assuming multiple otherTable records per clientTable 
record

SELECT clientTable.id as clientid, clientTable.stuff
          , otherTable.id as otherid, otherTable.stuff
       FROM clientTable
     INNER JOIN otherTable 
         ON clientTable.id = otherTable.clientid

but your original question asked about "nested query output" and this 
usually refers to output that is structured into groups of data, as in

client 1 
       other a
       other b
       other c
    client 2 
       other p
       other q

in cold fusion, use nested cfoutput tags and the GROUP= attribute

<cfoutput query=theJoin group=clientid>
    client #clienti# 
     <cfoutput>
      other #otherid"
     </cfoutput>
 </cfoutput>

ed, i just re-read your question, and it's entirely possible i got the 
cardinality of the relationship backwards, perhaps you have multiple 
clients per other record -- in that case, just switch all the above names 
around  ;o)

rudy
r937.com

From hpinson at indepthl.com  Fri Nov 24 13:25:41 2000
From: hpinson at indepthl.com (Harlow Pinson)
Date: Fri Nov 24 13:25:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] IBM Websphere Server Production Reliability on W2K
Message-ID: <3A1DB2EA.925.FDE4360@localhost>

I'm interested in the comment that Apache is not recommeded as 
a production web server in a WindowsNT/2000 environment. That's 
what I always understood from reading the docs at apache.org.

But.. I installed the IBM Websphere server the other day, and 
noticed that it was core Apache with some module additions and 
other modifications like a custom application server.

Can anyone comment on the reliability of the IBM Websphere 
server (Apache) in a Windows 2000 production environment?

Thanks,

Harlow Pinson
Indepth Learning
Email: hpinson at indepthl.com 
Web: http://www.indepthl.com
Voice: 505-255-8085
FAX: 505-255-8084

From jamie at bayou.com  Fri Nov 24 15:42:49 2000
From: jamie at bayou.com (Jamie Madden)
Date: Fri Nov 24 15:42:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] Font size in CSS
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001124154000.00b455a0@mail.bayou.com>

Ok, maybe I was mistaken but I thought that when you specified font sizes 
in px using CSS that the font size would be consistent across all 
browsers.  I mean, 12 pixels is 12 pixels is 12 pixels, right?  I guess 
that was just wishful thinking.

Have a look at:

http://www.bayou.com/

with both Netscape 4.x and IE and you'll see that the font size is much 
smaller in Netscape than in IE.  Is there anyway to get these to sizes 
closer to equal?

jamie

From lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 24 16:57:09 2000
From: lalo_dominguez at yahoo.com (Eduardo Dominguez)
Date: Fri Nov 24 16:57:09 2000
Subject: [thelist] PostgreSQL
References: <3A1CB462.26FC724B@bayou.com>
Message-ID: <01df01c055a0$3567fe70$3e01a8c0@emlalo>

wwww.phpwizard.net

phpPgAdmin a cousin of the famous phpMyAdmin... :)

greetz

edmz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay Fitzgerald" <jayfitz at bayou.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:08 AM
Subject: [thelist] PostgreSQL

Does anyone know of a fairly decent web admin interface/wrapper for
Postgres?

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Fri Nov 24 18:48:33 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Fri Nov 24 18:48:33 2000
Subject: [thelist] Random numbers - PHP
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001124183300.00af61d0@redhotsweeps.com>

Hello all,

I need to generate 6 random numbers, 1-9, and make sure that there are no 
more than 2 matches for each number.
ie...
1, 2, 3, 1,2,4 - good
1, 3, 5, 8, 4, 3, 3 - not good

Does anyone have or can anyone help me with this code?

Thanks

Chris

From dcody at oracular.com  Fri Nov 24 20:05:13 2000
From: dcody at oracular.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 24 20:05:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] IBM Websphere Server Production Reliability on W2K
References: <3A1DB2EA.925.FDE4360@localhost>
Message-ID: <3A1F1D96.34268704@oracular.com>

Apache was originally developed for the Unix platform, and to make it
work on win32, there were a lot of 'hacks' that had to be made.. this is
why you always hear the "Apache on Windows isn't stable" line..

As for your situation, IBM has a number of people that work on the
Apache project, and so they have a great deal of expertise with it.. The
IBM version of Apache has some minor modifications to improve stablitiy
and useablity on win32, so you shouldn't have any major concerns about
using it on the win32 platform..
Shout if you need more info :)

.djc.

Harlow Pinson wrote:
> 
> I'm interested in the comment that Apache is not recommeded as
> a production web server in a WindowsNT/2000 environment. That's
> what I always understood from reading the docs at apache.org.
> 
> But.. I installed the IBM Websphere server the other day, and
> noticed that it was core Apache with some module additions and
> other modifications like a custom application server.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the reliability of the IBM Websphere
> server (Apache) in a Windows 2000 production environment?

From dcody at oracular.com  Fri Nov 24 20:07:13 2000
From: dcody at oracular.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 24 20:07:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] Python
References: <3D6CEDD758B0D2119C860008C75D167E0318BB90@exbdf.dibbluptonalsop.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A1F1E17.9C78BB06@oracular.com>

Ya, I use python quite a bit.. The software that delivers email for this
list is actually written in Python.  Its easy to use, pretty fast, and
stable :)

Shout if you need more info..

.djc.

"Potts, Douglas" wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Just wondered if anyone is using this and if so what it's good for. I have
> no knowledge of this at all and just wondered. I heard google was written
> with this. Does anyone know?
> Regards,
> Doug

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Fri Nov 24 20:21:49 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Fri Nov 24 20:21:49 2000
Subject: [thelist] Random numbers - PHP
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20001124183300.00af61d0@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001124201712.00ae9510@redhotsweeps.com>

Never mind folks.  Got the answer.  Thanks

Chris

At 06:34 PM 11/24/00 , you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>I need to generate 6 random numbers, 1-9, and make sure that there are no 
>more than 2 matches for each number.
>ie...
>1, 2, 3, 1,2,4 - good
>1, 3, 5, 8, 4, 3, 3 - not good
>
>Does anyone have or can anyone help me with this code?
>
>Thanks
>
>Chris
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Fri Nov 24 22:47:31 2000
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Fri Nov 24 22:47:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] HTML Design work requested
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001124223305.00baddd0@redhotsweeps.com>

Hello all,

I need to have a few html pages designed for my site for a site 
makeover.  We already have the graphics, and have a set of chosen colors 
(but we are open to suggestions).  If you are available, please send me 
some examples of your work and your rates.  Please send offlist to save 
bandwidth.

This is for my Sweepstakes/Contest site at http://www.redhotsweeps.com/

Thanks

Chris

From vmv at online.sinor.ru  Sat Nov 25 00:21:55 2000
From: vmv at online.sinor.ru (Michael V. Vladimirov)
Date: Sat Nov 25 00:21:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] Browsers stats?
Message-ID: <1261665254.20001125121932@online.sinor.ru>

Where can I find statistics of browsers usage, preferably realtime?
It's very interesting to look what happened after the release of
NN6...

-- 
Best regards,
 Michael                          mailto:vmv at online.sinor.ru

From vmv at online.sinor.ru  Sat Nov 25 00:21:58 2000
From: vmv at online.sinor.ru (Michael V. Vladimirov)
Date: Sat Nov 25 00:21:58 2000
Subject: [thelist] Font size in CSS
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001124154000.00b455a0@mail.bayou.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001124154000.00b455a0@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <1281334158.20001125121401@online.sinor.ru>

Hello Jamie,

Saturday, November 25, 2000, 3:44:33 AM, you wrote:

JM> with both Netscape 4.x and IE and you'll see that the font size is much
JM> smaller in Netscape than in IE.  Is there anyway to get these to sizes 
JM> closer to equal?

Which Netscape do you mean? In NN6 it's ok.

-- 
Best regards,
 Michael                            mailto:vmv at online.sinor.ru

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 25 10:16:40 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Nov 25 10:16:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] Browsers stats?
In-Reply-To: <1261665254.20001125121932@online.sinor.ru>
Message-ID: <3A1F9E6B.9893.4B370864@localhost>

> From: "Michael V. Vladimirov" <vmv at online.sinor.ru>
>
> Where can I find statistics of browsers usage, preferably realtime?
> It's very interesting to look what happened after the release of
> NN6...

start with your own logs and logs from client sites... those would 
be more accurate for you anyway...

my own logs show a steady (but miniscule) increase in N6 usage...

From edmz at emonterrey.com  Sat Nov 25 10:18:31 2000
From: edmz at emonterrey.com (Eduardo Dominguez)
Date: Sat Nov 25 10:18:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
Message-ID: <021e01c056fc$e65bff30$3e01a8c0@emlalo>

I want to have a small image as a splash of my page. This image
must occupy most of the screen. The gif is small (100x100 or so)
and i want it to grow proportionally in size with the browser
window. How do I do this ?

If i am not wrong, this is done by putting the image as a background
of a table, but I always end up with a repeating image.

Can anyone help ? :) If someone knows how to do this with CSS and/or
layers or some funky way, please let me know, since thats betters, so
that I can learn.

thanks in advance.

-edmz-
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From edmz at emonterrey.com  Sat Nov 25 10:19:28 2000
From: edmz at emonterrey.com (Eduardo Dominguez)
Date: Sat Nov 25 10:19:28 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
Message-ID: <022c01c056fd$0d149060$3e01a8c0@emlalo>

I want to have a small image as a splash of my page, something
similar to the old Wired splash. This image
must occupy most of the screen. The gif is small (100x100 or so)
and i want it to grow proportionally in size with the browser
window. How do I do this ?

If i am not wrong, this is done by putting the image as a background
of a table, but I always end up with a repeating image.

Can anyone help ? :) If someone knows how to do this with CSS and/or
layers or some funky way, please let me know, since thats betters, so
that I can learn.

thanks in advance.

-edmz-

From elisabeth at xuxygrafix.com  Sat Nov 25 11:03:54 2000
From: elisabeth at xuxygrafix.com (Elisabeth Heinicke)
Date: Sat Nov 25 11:03:54 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
References: <021e01c056fc$e65bff30$3e01a8c0@emlalo>
Message-ID: <3A1FF522.11FB06D9@xuxygrafix.com>

It would seem to me that if you have a small image that grows with the
size of the open browser, you will lose the image's resolution: an image
expanded to a size larger than itself will become all pixelated and
murky. And to cram a large image into a small area would, while
retaining the clarity of the original image, not be worth the cost in
bandwidth. If you want to be sure your image is always smack in the
center of the window, however (and it seems to me that *might* just be
what you're talking about here): simply place it inside a table nested
inside a container table. The container table should be 100% in height
and width, and contain the nested table in its only <TD align="center"
valign="middle">. Just make sure the nested table is sized in pixels,
not %. HTH.

--Elisabeth Heinicke
  Xuxy Grafix

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 25 11:10:40 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Nov 25 11:10:40 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
In-Reply-To: <022c01c056fd$0d149060$3e01a8c0@emlalo>
Message-ID: <3A1FAB15.29108.4B68822D@localhost>

> From: "Eduardo Dominguez" <edmz at emonterrey.com>
>
> I want to have a small image as a splash of my page, something
> similar to the old Wired splash. This image
> must occupy most of the screen. The gif is small (100x100 or so)
> and i want it to grow proportionally in size with the browser
> window. How do I do this ?
[...]

have you tried <img src="foo.gof" width="100%" height="100%">?

doesn't work too well in NN, but IE seems to do it...

From gb at inetwire.com  Sat Nov 25 14:02:51 2000
From: gb at inetwire.com (Gerd Baumann)
Date: Sat Nov 25 14:02:51 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
References: <20001125175951.427FA1BD93@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3A201AA0.D6DDC7FE@inetwire.com>

> I want to have a small image as a splash of my page. This image
> must occupy most of the screen. The gif is small (100x100 or so)
> and i want it to grow proportionally in size with the browser
> window. How do I do this ?

You'll find the scripts at www.dansteinman.com
An example is at www.jeckel.com. I still have to update
it for NN6, otherwise it seems to work ok.

Gerd

From elisabeth at xuxygrafix.com  Sat Nov 25 15:39:45 2000
From: elisabeth at xuxygrafix.com (Elisabeth Heinicke)
Date: Sat Nov 25 15:39:45 2000
Subject: [thelist] old wired splash, how ?
References: <20001125175951.427FA1BD93@relay.evolt.org> <3A201AA0.D6DDC7FE@inetwire.com>
Message-ID: <3A203575.1BB8EEEC@xuxygrafix.com>

Ah. Of course. I'd misunderstood ... 8^)

--Elisabeth Heinicke

> 
> > I want to have a small image as a splash of my page. This image
> > must occupy most of the screen. The gif is small (100x100 or so)
> > and i want it to grow proportionally in size with the browser
> > window. How do I do this ?
> 
> You'll find the scripts at www.dansteinman.com
> An example is at www.jeckel.com. I still have to update
> it for NN6, otherwise it seems to work ok.
> 
> Gerd
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk  Sat Nov 25 16:21:19 2000
From: george.dillon at ukonline.co.uk (George Dillon)
Date: Sat Nov 25 16:21:19 2000
Subject: [thelist] Font size in CSS
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001124154000.00b455a0@mail.bayou.com>
Message-ID: <001401c0572e$12c0a0e0$66012cc3@athlon800>

> Ok, maybe I was mistaken but I thought that when you specified font sizes
> in px using CSS that the font size would be consistent ...
> Have a look at:
> http://www.bayou.com/
> font size is much smaller in Netscape than in IE.

Jamie

I had a look and at first could see no difference (IE5.5, NN4.7, Win98).

Do you have your font sizes set differently in the different browsers?  Try
"View" > "Decrease Font" (and then Reload) in NN.

Have you checked your code throughly?  NN might not be happy about this:

HTH

George

All browsers have problems with CSS.  Netscape 4.x in particular can catch
you out by losing inheritance within tables and forms and its tendency to be
totally unforgiving of any errors in your code.  (IE spoils us when we make
coding errors by making good guesses at our intentions most of the time and
thus hiding our faults from us.)  To make sure that everything on your pages
is being controlled by your CSS as you intend, set your default font faces
and colors to choices that you would never normally use (e.g. a script font
in puce).  Then you'll immediately spot any problems with your (and other
people's) CSS.

</tip>

From owolf at advancenet.net  Sat Nov 25 16:47:16 2000
From: owolf at advancenet.net (Scott Johnson)
Date: Sat Nov 25 16:47:16 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras
Message-ID: <20001125224740.GQQO23432.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@[192.168.0.45]>

How does the Olympus D340 R compare to the Cannon S-10?   I've been 
really hankering for an S-10 now that I've found a site that's selling 
them for around $375 (previous retail price was over $600).

Scott Johnson

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 25 18:50:00 2000
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Nov 25 18:50:00 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras
In-Reply-To: <20001125224740.GQQO23432.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@[192.168.0.45]>
Message-ID: <3A20168E.4049.4D0C6483@localhost>

> From: Scott Johnson <owolf at advancenet.net>
>
> How does the Olympus D340 R compare to the Cannon S-10?   I've been 
> really hankering for an S-10 now that I've found a site that's selling 
> them for around $375 (previous retail price was over $600).

haven't used the Cannon S-10... got any samples posted so we 
can compare?

From donnajj at gwi.net  Sat Nov 25 20:31:11 2000
From: donnajj at gwi.net (Donna Jones)
Date: Sat Nov 25 20:31:11 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras
References: <20001125224740.GQQO23432.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@[192.168.0.45]>
Message-ID: <3A207601.9DA3F3B5@gwi.net>

Here Scott, look at this site, and you probably want the "Image
Comparisons" for starters.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/DIGCAM01.HTM   I think they review both of
them, I spent a lot of time there a few weeks ago.  I know that one site I
looked at a lot used a S-10 and the pictures were great but don't know
were that was.

So, were is the site that's selling them for $375. :)

hth
Donna

Scott Johnson wrote:

> How does the Olympus D340 R compare to the Cannon S-10?   I've been
> really hankering for an S-10 now that I've found a site that's selling
> them for around $375 (previous retail price was over $600).
>
> Scott Johnson
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Jones: 207.772.0266
Home Site:  http://www.westendwebs.com
Have you been to the hunger site ( http://thehungersite.com/ ) today?

From lisa at koolfish.com  Sat Nov 25 23:38:31 2000
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew)
Date: Sat Nov 25 23:38:31 2000
Subject: [thelist] slideshow not working on clients machine, can you test please.
Message-ID: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAAEOKCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>

Hi all,
Can you check out this page for me as the client says it is not working. It
is working perfectly on my machine and some of my friends machines but we
are all based in Thailand. He says the photos don't come up. I think he must
have javascript disabled or it is something to do with the connection in
Singapore. I have asked him to check if his scripting is disabled.

the page is www.housephuket.com
go to the photographs section and click on the see photos image. It should
produce a slideshow.

Would there be any other issues that I don't know about that would cause it
not to work. The client viewed it on his machine in Thailand and it worked.
He then went to his office in Singapore and said it is not working and also
a friend of his in Singapore said the same thing.

Thanks
Lisa.
<tip "type=Microsoft access 2000">
If you want to assign a Yes/No field default value for use in a foreign
country, enter an equal sign before the choice (=yes) and the equivalent
word from the local language will be displayed. For example, a yes value
would be displayed as "oui" in France.
</tip>

From thesite at lists.evolt.org  Sat Nov 25 23:59:43 2000
From: thesite at lists.evolt.org (thesite at lists.evolt.org)
Date: Sat Nov 25 23:59:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 26-Nov-00
Message-ID: <200011260559.XAA20336@poet.oracular.com>

evolt.org headlines for 26-Nov-00

Mutiny at ICANN: countries consider the snub
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=1&cid=3914
Creative crazy web developer wanted
http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&catid=23&cid=3910

Happy reading...

the evolt.org admin team

From jspencer at sunflower.com  Sun Nov 26 00:01:13 2000
From: jspencer at sunflower.com (John Spencer)
Date: Sun Nov 26 00:01:13 2000
Subject: [thelist] slideshow not working on clients machine, can you test please.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAAEOKCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <AKEKIEDFCPDLPKAGJICAMEAJCHAA.jspencer@sunflower.com>

Works fine on a PC with IE 5.5 in the US.

cheers
John

>the page is www.housephuket.com
>go to the photographs section and click on the see photos image. It should
>produce a slideshow.

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From albjung at globalserve.net  Sun Nov 26 00:56:07 2000
From: albjung at globalserve.net (A Jung)
Date: Sun Nov 26 00:56:07 2000
Subject: [thelist] slideshow not working on clients machine, can you
	test please.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAAEOKCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <B6461ED9.740A%albjung@globalserve.net>

> the page is www.housephuket.com
> go to the photographs section and click on the see photos image. It should
> produce a slideshow.
> 
> Would there be any other issues that I don't know about that would cause it
> not to work. The client viewed it on his machine in Thailand and it worked.
> He then went to his office in Singapore and said it is not working and also
> a friend of his in Singapore said the same thing.
> 
Took a look on a Mac running OS 9.04 using NS 4/3 and IE 5/4/3.

Slideshow worked fine until I got to IE 3 (but your client couldn't be using
a browser that old could he?) though there was an interesting problem with
Netscape. If you try to advance before the next slide has finished loading,
you will see the previous slide under/behind the one that is loading.

IE 3 doesn't understand your <div> or <span> tags so all of the text ends up
overlapping on one line and it doesn't understand your javascript.

Albert J.

-- 
"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular"

From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 26 00:58:55 2000
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 26 00:58:55 2000
Subject: [thelist] disabling enter on form
Message-ID: <00b201c05776$55fbd9e0$62059ad8@michelef>

Hi Folks,

I don't know if there is a way to do this, but I thought I would ask... When
filling out the form, as soon as you hit enter the form is accepted, before
you've had a chance to finishing filling it out.  I know I should be adding
some form validation anyway, to ensure that the information is passed
correctly.  That I will get too in the new year.

In the meantime, is there anything I can do that would disable the submit
via pressing enter?

Can hitting enter cycle through the different field elements like pressing
tab does?

http://ceramic.on.ca/orders/order.asp

Thanks,

Michele

___________________________

Michele Foster
WordPro Services
Aurora, Ontario, Canada
mailto:michele at wordpro.on.ca
http://wordpro.on.ca/

From ross at designcc.com  Sun Nov 26 03:09:43 2000
From: ross at designcc.com (J. Ross Dishner)
Date: Sun Nov 26 03:09:43 2000
Subject: [thelist] slideshow not working on clients machine, can you
 test please.
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAAEOKCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
References: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAAEOKCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>
Message-ID: <p04310103b646835634ae@[208.244.57.150]>

It works here on IE 4.5 and NN 4.7 Mac.

>Hi all,
>Can you check out this page for me as the client says it is not working. It
>is working perfectly on my machine and some of my friends machines but we
>are all based in Thailand. He says the photos don't come up. I think he must
>have javascript disabled or it is something to do with the connection in
>Singapore. I have asked him to check if his scripting is disabled.
>
>the page is www.housephuket.com
>go to the photographs section and click on the see photos image. It should
>produce a slideshow.
>
>Would there be any other issues that I don't know about that would cause it
>not to work. The client viewed it on his machine in Thailand and it worked.
>He then went to his office in Singapore and said it is not working and also
>a friend of his in Singapore said the same thing.
>

From jheazlitt at prodigy.net  Sun Nov 26 05:08:48 2000
From: jheazlitt at prodigy.net (Jack Heazlitt)
Date: Sun Nov 26 05:08:48 2000
Subject: [thelist] Framing offsite content
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991008162845.007c0b00@pop.prodigy.net>

I'm meeting Monday with some clients who are interested in a portal and I
need ammunition on the ethical and legal problems inherent in framing other
people's content on their site.  I know there are some good links on this
out there, but preliminary searching isn't turning them up.

Thanks - Jack

From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 26 09:01:27 2000
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 26 09:01:27 2000
Subject: [thelist] Framing offsite content
Message-ID: <01c057b9$c509e460$2d4d149a@default>

> I'm meeting Monday with some clients who are interested in a portal
> and I need ammunition on the ethical and legal problems inherent in
> framing other people's content on their site.  I know there are some
> good links on this out there, but preliminary searching isn't turning
them up.

hi jack

no?  perhaps you might want to switch search engines  ;o)

see tip on search engines (below)

about your question, you'll want to read up on two cases -- Washington Post
v Total News, and Futuredontics v Applied Anagramic

Can you frame another site's content?
  http://www.builder.com/Business/Law/ss14.html

Thinking About Linking
  http://www.llrx.com/features/weblink1.htm

TRADEMARK ISSUES IN CYBERSPACE: The Brave New Frontier
  http://www.fenwick.com/pub/trademark_issues_in_cyberspace.htm#Linking and
Framing

Online Display Rights
  http://www.allrise.com/hardcore/displayrights-text.html

and if you are concerned about your own site being framed, see

Breaking out of frames
  http://evolt.org/index.cfm?menu=8&cid=249

good luck with those clients, and don't be late for your meeting -- your
mailer says it's october 8 1999  ;o)

if you are doing research and want comprehensive results --
   google (http://www.google.com/)
   raging (http://ragingsearch.altavista.com/)

if you know the page is out there and just can't remember the url, or if
you're interested in getting the most likely result --
  ixquick (http://www.ixquick.com/)

</tip>

rudy
r937.com

From mike at price.com  Sun Nov 26 16:45:52 2000
From: mike at price.com (Michael Buffington)
Date: Sun Nov 26 16:45:52 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras
Message-ID: <A1677A385E11D411BAA000A0CCE67ECD204543@mail.price.com>

Scott, while I can't answer your question directly on the difference between
the Olympus D340 vs. the Canon S10 featurewise, it occurred to me that price
was a concern for you.

So, here's the start of a shameless, perhaps useful plug:

Price.com lets you compare prices on hundreds of cameras, as well as
providing descriptions and feature comparisons.

http://electronics.price.com/drill.htm?epg=3158

The Canon Powershot S10 is priced between $324.99 and $622.00.
http://electronics.price.com/prices.htm?epg=3158&id=-2146765679

The Olympus D340R is priced between $209.00 and $258.00.
http://electronics.price.com/prices.htm?epg=3158&id=-2147480278

The Olympus D340L (a little more feature rich than the D340R) is priced
between $258.00 and $498.87.
http://electronics.price.com/prices.htm?epg=3158&id=-2147287493

Hope I could help.

Michael Buffington
(714) 556-3890 x222
mike at price.com
http://www.price.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Johnson
To: theList
Sent: 11/25/00 2:47 PM
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras

Scott Johnson

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From colin at u2i.com  Sun Nov 26 17:29:34 2000
From: colin at u2i.com (Colin Strasser)
Date: Sun Nov 26 17:29:34 2000
Subject: [thelist] Confused by 'ems'...
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJAHNMNCICAMJBONMEENPDOAA.richard.morris@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NDBBKLCOCLOCDIKKLGEFGEJECOAA.colin@u2i.com>

Jeff Zeldman says that % is unreliable for text: "Netscape 4 for
Mac renders percentage units when they are used for line-height
(leading) but ignores them entirely when they are used to specify
type sizes. And some versions of Netscape 4 for Windows treat
percentages as pixels. (Thus, 200% is dementedly translated as 200
pixels. Mmm, nice layout.)

"Lest we forget, good old IE3 drops the ball by sizing percentages
relative to the user's default font size, rather than to the
parent element. In English: if the web user has set her browser's
default to 10px, IE3 will display STRONG at 20px [even if you've
put BODY {font: 12px} in your style sheet]."

In fact, he argues that the only choices are px or nothing at all.
You can read his entire article about this here:

http://www.alistapart.com/stories/fear4/index.html

-Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard H. Morris

> > also, they wanted to NOT use the pt or px sizes so that the
text will be
> > scaled according to the size selected by the user.
>
> did you try %?

Don't forget to check for percentages of percentages (of
percentages...)
when specifying % font sizes if they're nested (such as BODY % and
TABLE %,
P %, etc.)

From francis.newman at webshot.co.uk  Sun Nov 26 18:07:27 2000
From: francis.newman at webshot.co.uk (francis newman)
Date: Sun Nov 26 18:07:27 2000
Subject: [thelist] Re: Digital Cameras
References: <A1677A385E11D411BAA000A0CCE67ECD204543@mail.price.com>
Message-ID: <3A21A4EF.38468F6C@webshot.co.uk>

Michael Buffington wrote:

> Scott, while I can't answer your question directly on the difference between
> the Olympus D340 vs. the Canon S10 featurewise, it occurred to me that price
> was a concern for you.
>

www.steves-digicams.com is a great place to get objective reviews of all these
cameras.

Francis Newman
Webshot UK

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 26 19:52:41 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 26 19:52:41 2000
Subject: [thelist] Who's more stupid?
In-Reply-To: <20001123010333-r01010600-64b3f808@24.43.66.191>
Message-ID: <ANEOJKCILBBIJMGALNELCELBDKAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

frank,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Frank
:
: When I asked to clarify whether he was building a
: product based on ours, to resell to other customers,
: he essentially (and casually) said yes. (WTF was he
: thinking?!)
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i'm guessing he wasn't thinking.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I know I can encrypt my code- can I decrypt it?
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

yes, it can be decrypted.  it's a very simple algorithm used to encrypt the
templates.  it has to be fairly simple so that cf server doesn't take too
long to decrypt them when they're requested.  i wouldn't rely on it to
protect your intellectual property.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: And can I encrypt my database in such a way that it
: functions, and yet still not allow him, with his Admin
: God status to get the password?
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

there's not a whole lot you can do if he has physical access to the box with
the cf templates and database.  at best you can encrypt the cf templates
(making it harder for him as he'll need to decrypt all of them to use them)
and encrypt the data as it goes into the database.  however, that won't keep
your decryption scheme for converting the encrypted data for display on the
site nor will it protect your database architecture which he's obviously
using as a learning tool.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I don't know who'se more stupid: Me for trusting in
: a business situation, or him for outright telling me
: that he's screwing me over.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

far and away i'd say he's the stupid one in this situation.  i just can't
believe he actually called you and admitted that he was stealing your
intellectual property.  that's incredible.

i would take your hosting business elsewhere asap.  there are plenty of
other hosts that are willing to do what they do best, host, and leave you to
do what you do best, provide application development.

good luck,

.jeff
np:  Tag's Trance Trip - http://205.188.245.131:8016

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org

From lisa at koolfish.com  Sun Nov 26 20:32:14 2000
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Bartholomew)
Date: Sun Nov 26 20:32:14 2000
Subject: [thelist] re slideshow not working on clients machine, can you test please
Message-ID: <NEBBIDOAELFHBDBBPNHAMEONCBAA.lisa@koolfish.com>

Thanks for those of you who have tested the slideshow. I even had my friends
check it, it seems to be working fine  on 99% of machines people tested
however my friend in Australia said that when she ran it in IE 5.0 on a PC
this occurred:

A run time error has occurred.
Do you wish to debug?

Line 60
Automation server can't create object

What does that mean and how can I fix it? And why would it only occur on her
machine and not mine which is running the same OS and Browser?
Thanks Lisa.

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 26 20:51:44 2000
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 26 20:51:44 2000
Subject: [thelist] disabling enter on form
In-Reply-To: <00b201c05776$55fbd9e0$62059ad8@michelef>
Message-ID: <ANEOJKCILBBIJMGALNELMELCDKAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

michele,

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: Michele Foster
:
: Is there anything I can do that would disable
: the submit via pressing enter?
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sure, simply attach some form validation to the form and hitting enter will
fire the form's onsubmit event handler, checking the data, and halting
submission if it doesn't meet your validation criteria.

:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Can hitting enter cycle through the different field
: elements like pressing tab does?
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

no, nor should it.  users have come to expect a certain type of behavior
with form elements.  tab moves between fields and enter submits (in most
cases).  to catch these and cause different behavior would be confusing.

now, about that form validation.  it's rather simple.  use the form's
onsubmit event handler, calling your validation function like this:

return validateForm(this)

your validateForm() function will return a value of true if all the data
validates or it will return false if any of it fails.  the call to the
function is then effectively replaced by the value the function returns
yielding a return statement that the browser can act upon.  a statement of
"return true" tells the browser to continue with what it was doing -
submitting.  a statement of "return false" tells the browser to stop what
it's doing.

assuming your validating whether there is data in a login form (username &
password), this is what your validateForm() function might look like:

your form would look like this:

good luck,

.jeff

name://jeff.howden
game://web.development
http://www.evolt.org/
mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org