areas that are not visible to start with (ex: >

). When a user chooses the correct button, >etc, a .js function replaces the blank area with a form field via innerHTML >(ex: >Function changeMe(){ >Document.all.butter.innerHTML = ?form field html here = ?stuff? and more >html? >} > >Now, I know that innerHTML is a bastard in Netscape, which I really don?t >need to address. The problem is, the form shows up and works great, but I >cannot capture the form elements in this

when I submit the form. I >can only guess this is because they really don?t exist on the page... > >Any one have a solution or thoughts? It's because when you change the innerHTML of an element, the revised DOM tree (document.all.b.etc) isn't immediately available. The browser needs a little while (during which no JavaScript may be executed) to parse the new innerHTML and create a new part of the DOM tree. Solution: change the innerHTML, set a timeout of about half a second, then call a new function that accesses the form through the normal DOM. ppk _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From jedimaster at macromedia.com Mon Jun 3 07:35:01 2002 From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden) Date: Mon Jun 3 07:35:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] CF form problems... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> > the other common use of the Evaluate function is when performing > mathematical calculations -- especially as an attribute value of a > coldfusion tag. > > don't do this: > > > do this instead: > > > Just to be anal - don't forget the decrementValue function: p.s. Sorry I've been so quiet the last few weeks - a new child will do that to you. ;) ======================================================================= Raymond Camden, ColdFusion Jedi Master for Macromedia Email : jedimaster at macromedia.com Yahoo IM : morpheus "My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda From Josh.S.Feingold at irs.gov Mon Jun 3 07:52:00 2002 From: Josh.S.Feingold at irs.gov (Feingold Josh S) Date: Mon Jun 3 07:52:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Include JavaScript variables into ASP script Message-ID: <67C18A40A655D3119CDD0004ACE530C60541C27A@chm0010mb01.atsc.irs.gov> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I always hate saying you can't do something, because all it means is that I don't know how to do something. Having said that, I think you need to realize that Javascript is being interpreted on the client side whereas ASP is on the server side. As such you need a mechanism to send your client side variables to the server. So you would need to send the value of this array via a post or put to the ASP page for processing. Josh From hershelr at netvision.net.il Mon Jun 3 07:52:05 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Mon Jun 3 07:52:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC References: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> Message-ID: <001d01c20b06$5e272c10$0101c80a@hershel> I run Win 2K (for better or worse--I have no choice) and occasionally, like once a day, some process called Smc.exe takes over at least half of my processor, if not more. Even though I should in theory still have a half a processor, my PC crawls and I need to restart. It eats up my processor but only uses about 12 meg RAM. All this info is what my Task Manager indicates. Any help is appreciated. Hershel From norman.bunn at craftedsolutions.com Mon Jun 3 08:13:01 2002 From: norman.bunn at craftedsolutions.com (Norman Bunn) Date: Mon Jun 3 08:13:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC In-Reply-To: <001d01c20b06$5e272c10$0101c80a@hershel> References: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020603091041.0177b880@craftedsolutions.com> As best I can tell from a quick Google search, smc.exe is a firewall program (Sygate Personal Firewall). You might want to check with them as to why this is happening. Norman At 09:55 AM 6/3/2002, Hershel Robinson wrote: >I run Win 2K (for better or worse--I have no choice) and occasionally, like >once a day, some process called Smc.exe takes over at least half of my >processor, if not more. Even though I should in theory still have a half a >processor, my PC crawls and I need to restart. It eats up my processor but >only uses about 12 meg RAM. All this info is what my Task Manager >indicates. > >Any help is appreciated. > >Hershel > >-- >For unsubscribe and other options, including >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 08:22:02 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Jun 3 08:22:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Accessibility Concerns With Menus In-Reply-To: <000901c20aef$bf078dc0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb> Message-ID: <200206031321.g53DLAxW019513@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Burhan Khalid" [...] > Title : Constructing Usable Web Menus > Authors : Andy Beaumont, Dave Gibbons, Jody Kerr, Jon Stephens > ISBN : 1-904151-02-7 > Publsher : Glasshaus > > Amazon : http://urlizer.com/00/809/ > Barnes & Noble : http://urlizer.com/00/810/ [...] i'm in the middle of a review of this for evolt, and one thing i can say so far is beware chapter 3... somewhere partway through the chapter, the idea of "usable" is tossed aside... i should have it written up by the end of the week... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From adeythom at well.com Mon Jun 3 08:38:01 2002 From: adeythom at well.com (Adrian Thompson) Date: Mon Jun 3 08:38:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC In-Reply-To: <001d01c20b06$5e272c10$0101c80a@hershel> References: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20020603143525.00b20330@mail.well.com> Hi. Take a look at http://forums.sygatetech.com/showthread.php?s=e00c0fe674ac286ed098676e04d61da6&threadid=737&highlight=smc.exe (watch the wrapping) It seems to discuss the problem you're having. If the problem does turn out to be Sygate Firewall, you could do a lot worse than try Zone Alarm (http://www.zonelabs.com) - it's free for personal use, and seems (on my machine at least!) to be stable, and non-resource hogging. HTH, Adrian Thompson At 15:55 03/06/2002 +0200, you wrote: >I run Win 2K (for better or worse--I have no choice) and occasionally, like >once a day, some process called Smc.exe takes over at least half of my >processor, if not more. Even though I should in theory still have a half a >processor, my PC crawls and I need to restart. It eats up my processor but >only uses about 12 meg RAM. All this info is what my Task Manager >indicates. > >Any help is appreciated. > >Hershel > >-- >For unsubscribe and other options, including >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From hershelr at netvision.net.il Mon Jun 3 08:52:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Mon Jun 3 08:52:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC References: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> <5.1.1.6.2.20020603143525.00b20330@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <004401c20b0e$cbd50c20$0101c80a@hershel> Well done. That would appear to be my problem. I may well try zone alarm now. Thanks, Hershel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Thompson" To: Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [thelist] What's eating my PC > Hi. Take a look at > http://forums.sygatetech.com/showthread.php?s=e00c0fe674ac286ed098676e04d61d a6&threadid=737&highlight=smc.exe > (watch the wrapping) > > It seems to discuss the problem you're having. > > If the problem does turn out to be Sygate Firewall, you could do a lot > worse than try Zone Alarm (http://www.zonelabs.com) - it's free for > personal use, and seems (on my machine at least!) to be stable, and > non-resource hogging. > > HTH, > > Adrian Thompson > > > At 15:55 03/06/2002 +0200, you wrote: > >I run Win 2K (for better or worse--I have no choice) and occasionally, like > >once a day, some process called Smc.exe takes over at least half of my > >processor, if not more. Even though I should in theory still have a half a > >processor, my PC crawls and I need to restart. It eats up my processor but > >only uses about 12 meg RAM. All this info is what my Task Manager > >indicates. > > > >Any help is appreciated. > > > >Hershel > > > >-- > >For unsubscribe and other options, including > >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From techwatcher at accesswriters.com Mon Jun 3 10:09:01 2002 From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher) Date: Mon Jun 3 10:09:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Extracting pictures from a database Message-ID: Hi, Just one more little note on this topic, folks: I was working on updating a Web site (subsite?) for a very large entertainment company (before it merged with a very large ISP). They had protocols in place to validate pages before they were updated, and one of those protocols was: Yes, you guessed it... IMG tags without height & width attributes - - even with inaccurate VALUES of those attributes!!! -- were rejected. I don't know if other firms use that sort of validator any longer. It sure slowed down development, as well as making it impossible to resize single-pixel color blocks, or use similar tricks. Once you get the free HTML authoring system HTML-Kit downloaded and set up properly (pointing to your images subdirectory), you can insert an image simply by clicking on the image tool on the Action toobar, then clicking the file you want in the images subdirectory (which automatically opens). HTML-Kit automatically inserts the correct size attributes! You should change the ALT text, however, which by default is merely the file's name and size. Cheers -- Carol techwatcher at accesswriters.com [snip] If I've got this (img tags don't really need the width and height attributes to work, automatic) thing in a database cell... [/snip] However, this prevents the page from validating. Also height and width attributes in the tag "tell" the browser to set aside exactly that much real-estate for the image. Doing it on the fly uses more memory resources and may cause the page to take longer to download. Not to mention that it is just bad form. You can have your upload scripting capture and assemble the proper information and attributes if you choose to go the URL-in-the-database route. Jay From ken.kogler at cph.org Mon Jun 3 10:11:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Mon Jun 3 10:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS - Twice The Fun? Message-ID: Long story short: I've got a website with two different templates. Template A is a larger file that actually includes Template B in the body. Template B is just a that's 50px high and 100% wide, and adds a top layer "branding" to the site, like so: +----------------+ | +------------+ | | | TEMPLATE B | | | +------------+ | | | | | +----------------+ Template A is almost the same, but allows for left-hand navigation: +----------------+ | +------------+ | | | TEMPLATE B | | | +------------+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +--+---------+ | | | +----------------+ Everybody with me? Good. No matter which template you use, you're dealing with the same CSS file ("/css/default.css" - creative, huh?). Finally, the question: Is it safe (meaning it's not going to create any problems that I haven't noticed yet) to have the tag in my document twice? If they use Template A, they get it twice. Once from Template A, and once from Template B. This hasn't caused any problems I'm aware of, but I don't want any nasty suprises once this gets off the dev server and onto the production one... Also, the W3C validator doesn't seem to like the within the (HTML4.01Trans). Any ways around this? Thanks in advance, folks! -Ken From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Mon Jun 3 10:20:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 10:20:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Accessibility Question Message-ID: Interesting hover side effect. IE5.5 Win, rolling ovver the office pic moves all the text to the right, and it stays that way until rolling over the "Bobby approved" pic below it. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Mon Jun 3 10:27:00 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 10:27:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Special chars on web pages Message-ID: >Any assistance as to how to rectify this is much appreciated. The idea >would be if we could figure out how to prevent MS Word from using or >outputting these characters because all of the writers use MS Word. I, >however, do not use MS Word and don't know it. I've never found a way to stop Word from doing that, so I've whipped up a quick BBEdit macro that changes all those marks to standard entity numbers. I can "fix" and entire folder full of those files in less than a minute. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From evolt at accessibleinter.net Mon Jun 3 10:46:01 2002 From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason) Date: Mon Jun 3 10:46:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS - Twice The Fun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020603084400.00a01ec0@accessibleinter.net> At 08:06 AM 06/03/2002, you wrote: >Also, the W3C validator doesn't seem to like the within the >(HTML4.01Trans). Any ways around this? Sure, don't do it. LINK isn't allowed in BODY, no matter what browsers let you get away with it. Bill Mason Accessible Internet evolt at accessibleinter.net http://www.accessibleinter.net/ From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 11:05:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Jun 3 11:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? Message-ID: <200206031604.g53G4eCN026132@leo.evolt.org> (aka browserwatch.internet.com) that used to be a keen place to go look up browser stats, UA strings, browser news, etc... went there this morning and instead got that internet.com monolithic crap content page... the nearest thing i can find in their all-but-useless site navigation and search engine is: http://ipw.internet.com/clients_servers/web_browsers/index.html did a google search on Dave Garaffa (the guy who ran it), and only found old stuff, no news on where it went... how did i miss this? -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From howcheng at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 3 11:42:01 2002 From: howcheng at ix.netcom.com (Howard Cheng) Date: Mon Jun 3 11:42:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Include JavaScript variables into ASP script In-Reply-To: <001001c20a26$d902f580$22b0e5c3@Latika> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020603093934.02895b18@popd.ix.netcom.com> Lakita. As Javascript is a client-side language, it cannot communicate with ASP or any other server-side framework, so the short answer to your question is no, it is not possible to send Javascript variables to an ASP script. HTH. At 03:15 PM 6/2/2002 +0400, Latika Anand wrote: >Hi Ashok > >That was an example I used to know more about "Include JavaScript variables >into ASP script". > >Thanks >Latika :::::::::::::::::::::: Howard Cheng howcheng at ix.netcom.com AIM: bennyphoebe ICQ: 47319315 From morgan at morgankelsey.com Mon Jun 3 11:43:01 2002 From: morgan at morgankelsey.com (nagrom) Date: Mon Jun 3 11:43:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? References: <200206031604.g53G4eCN026132@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000f01c20b1d$9b40af60$0b01a8c0@nagrom> aardvark, > (aka browserwatch.internet.com) > > that used to be a keen place to go look up browser stats, UA > strings, browser news, etc... > > went there this morning and instead got that internet.com > monolithic crap content page... the nearest thing i can find in their > all-but-useless site navigation and search engine is: > http://ipw.internet.com/clients_servers/web_browsers/index.html > [..] a bummer indeed, lets hope he's updating it or something.... w3schools has a similiar thing, though not as good: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp nagrom ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.morgankelsey.com From jcanfield at magisnetworks.com Mon Jun 3 11:52:00 2002 From: jcanfield at magisnetworks.com (jcanfield at magisnetworks.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 11:52:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Special chars on web pages Message-ID: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC42@grog> > you got entities on the brain, pal ;o) > > the characters hershel refers to are the single and double > curly quotes (nyuk, nyuk) and the emdash And you've got curly on yours. (actual useful comments below) > me and msword don't get along too well -- recall my > frustrated plea for help recently, trying to get it not to > capitalize the first character > > finding the msword option "don't use any characters in the > decimal range 129 through 159" will likely be as painful Musta missed your plea, to which I would never turn a deaf ear - Autocorrect options - turn off the stupid 'capitalize first word of sentences you cringing insignificant milksop!' rule. (I've got Office XP, so it's 'Tools | Autocorrect Options' and uncheck the box.) You can also create 'autocorrect' rules (hah! As in jiu jitsu, turn the attacker's power against himself!) and substitute a correct, rational, non-stupid entity for each of the offensive MS-ly stupid entities. BTW, getting this TEXT ONLY NO FORMATTING e-mail to accept 'MS-ly' took quite a bit of effort. And I'm still not sure it'll send like that. joel From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Mon Jun 3 12:04:01 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:04:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation In-Reply-To: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC42@grog> Message-ID: <004301c20b20$d63260c0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> Good afternoon! I am working on a project where approximately 3k - 5k records are returned and need to be displayed 30 per page with 'previous' and 'next' navigation at the request of the users. Does anyone know of an efficient script that will do this in PHP (with MySQL) that will not query the database every time? I would like to place the records into an array after one query to the database and then navigate the array. Anyhow, if anyone knows, please let me know. Otherwise I will have to write what I am looking for, and I really have no desire to re-invent the whell on a Monday afternoon. TIA! Jay From ashok at magicalkenya.com Mon Jun 3 12:11:01 2002 From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [thechat] Brazil to win world cup, England out in the 2nd round. Message-ID: the bookies here put the odds at 800 for china to win the world cup. the odds on saudi arabia are at 4900. someone might just become a millionaire next month.... >The likelihood of >China actually reaching the finals is From ashok at magicalkenya.com Mon Jun 3 12:12:01 2002 From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [thechat] Brazil to win world cup, England out in the 2nd round. Message-ID: sorry wrong list... kindly ignore... From king_galen at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 12:17:01 2002 From: king_galen at hotmail.com (KGIII) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:17:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC References: <002701c20afa$92360230$6561a8c0@vader> <5.1.1.6.2.20020603143525.00b20330@mail.well.com> Message-ID: IMHO if you are a tweaker and a PC buff then you might find that you fall in love with Outpost... Available in free or paid version and still inexpensive while it is in beta. You can download a copy here: http://www.agnitum.com and it is one of the most highly configurable firewalls out there that I know of. If you don't hate it you will love it, there seems to be no middle-road with it. It does come with some presets for a lot of common applications but there is still quite a bit of configuration needed to insure that it is working properly and allowing only the specific parts of applications that are a necessity to contact the Internet. Personally? I love it though I can point to as many people in the world that have tried it and hated it. It helps if you know about tcp/ip settings already but all in all three or four cups of coffee on a Saturday afternoon should do the trick and have you up and running in tip top shape. Just to give a second opinion on the firewall issue. Oh, and if you are at all computer savvy and have a lifetime to waste in a newsletter and message board then you can apply to be a beta tester and you can get a PRO version of the software with all the latest updates for free too. Actually it isn't a waste of time but it is a lot of time that you will find yourself devoting to it. Galen +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If the problem does turn out to be Sygate Firewall, you could do a lot worse than try Zone Alarm (http://www.zonelabs.com) - it's free for personal use, and seems (on my machine at least!) to be stable, and non-resource hogging. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com Mon Jun 3 12:26:01 2002 From: Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com (Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:26:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] What's eating my PC Message-ID: You can download a copy here: http://www.agnitum.com and it is one of the most highly configurable firewalls out there that I know of. Personally, I use a free linux-based router that runs on an old Pentium 90, 32 Megs of RAM and no hard-drive. Yep... it boots off a floppy, which of course I write-protected! ;) http://www.coyotelinux.com/ Of course you need to dedicate a machine to this, but it handles DHCP for me, port-forwarding to my web / ftp server, etc. -Ron From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu Mon Jun 3 12:33:01 2002 From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:33:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Special chars on web pages In-Reply-To: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC42@grog> (jcanfield@magisnetworks.com) References: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC42@grog> Message-ID: <200206031732.NAA30455@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> > BTW, getting this TEXT ONLY NO FORMATTING e-mail to accept 'MS-ly' took quite > a bit of effort. And I'm still not sure it'll send like that. I have one word for you: Emacs. And yes, it exists in Windows. (The official Windows port has caught up to the main thingy, v. 21.2) If you like your software monolithic and all-inclusive, Emacs is surely the way to go. By no means small -- the tarball, even GZipped, of the source of v21.2 is over 19 MB -- Emacs includes just about everything but the kitchen sink and the operating system (though it does have a shell mode). Ports exist for everything from Linux to Windows and about 40 or 50 machine types, including DECstations and VAX. http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/ ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/windows/emacs/latest If on the other hand, you like your software light and small, try VIM ("Vi IMproved!"). Binaries are in the range of 700k (no, really). http://www.vim.org/ http://www.vim.org/macs.html -- MacVIM http://www.vim.org/binaries.html -- Other precompiled binaries Collect 'em all! From mail at jasoncartwright.com Mon Jun 3 12:59:00 2002 From: mail at jasoncartwright.com (Jason Cartwright) Date: Mon Jun 3 12:59:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? In-Reply-To: <000f01c20b1d$9b40af60$0b01a8c0@nagrom> Message-ID: <000001c20b26$64648fd0$0100a8c0@jason> That appears to be built off the data from http://www.thecounter.com/stats/ This has to be the ultimate stats resource, polling 399m vistors a month Jason www.jasoncartwright.com > -----Original Message----- > w3schools has a similiar thing, though not as good: > http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 13:14:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Jun 3 13:14:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? In-Reply-To: <000001c20b26$64648fd0$0100a8c0@jason> References: <000f01c20b1d$9b40af60$0b01a8c0@nagrom> Message-ID: <200206031813.g53IDaCN009890@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Jason Cartwright" > > > w3schools has a similiar thing, though not as good: > > http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp > > That appears to be built off the data from > http://www.thecounter.com/stats/ granted, but i wasn't looking for stats... i was looking for their collection of UA strings, and their browser news... itnerestingly enough, i did find a screenshot of the home page on the MSDN site[1], although, sadly, that's all i can find about the site, and it doesn't discuss its demise.... [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en- us/dnproweb/html/whichbrowserdoitarget.asp -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 14:07:01 2002 From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTML email to Notes users Message-ID: <20020603190634.76347.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone know how to code an HTML email destined for Lotus Notes users so that it doesn't mangle the tables on the receiving end? I have figured out so far to use the CID method of inline embedding for images, but my layout still blows up. Thanks in advance, Robert Goodyear __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From simon at incutio.com Mon Jun 3 14:13:01 2002 From: simon at incutio.com (Simon Willison) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:13:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation In-Reply-To: <004301c20b20$d63260c0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> References: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC42@grog> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020603200713.02359920@mail.incutio.com> At 12:05 03/06/02 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote: >Good afternoon! > >I am working on a project where approximately 3k - 5k records are returned >and need to be displayed 30 per page with 'previous' and 'next' navigation >at the request of the users. Does anyone know of an efficient script that >will do this in PHP (with MySQL) that will not query the database every >time? I would like to place the records into an array after one query to the >database and then navigate the array. I'm pretty sure it would be more efficient to query the database on each page load rather than create and store an array of 3,000 items pesistently across page views :) MySQL has a very useful syntax when doing a next/prev button - the "LIMIT X,Y" command (e.g "select * from news limit 0, 10") X = The first item to display (10 would mean "start at the 10th item in the list") Y = how many to display after that first item (20 would mean "return 20 items") To create the next/previous buttons You need to know how many records have been returned and what "page" you are on. If no page is set (or page = 1) perform "select ... limit 0, 10". If a page has been specified (e.g page 3 of the results) do $x = 10 * page (i.e 30) then "select ... limit $x, 10) - obviously you should change 10 to reflect the number of results you want to display. Finally, to create your next/prev buttons first check if there are any results left to show (see if the total number of results for your query is less than $page * 10) - that tells you if a ?next" button is needed. Then check if you are on the first page or not, and if not display a "previous" button. Hope that explanation is clear enough, Simon From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Mon Jun 3 14:22:01 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:22:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020603200713.02359920@mail.incutio.com> Message-ID: <000101c20b34$0f5ca550$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> Simon, [snip]...stuff about MySQL LIMIT...[/snip] Thank you for your information. I am aware of and have used LIMIT for many queries in MySQL, but there is a problem here that I probably have not been clear enough about. These 3000-5000 records exist in a table that has millions of records. So for each query with LIMIT MySQL has to traverse all of the records right up until it receives the limit amounts back The further into the table you go, the worse the delay. The array, if I built one from the desired records, would take up less memeory space than most front pages on web sites (under 30k), making it rather quick on subsequent "pages". I know how easy it is to do this with LIMIT and I wish that I could take advantage of it. But I am afraid that speed is the largest issue at this point. Thanks! Jay From georgeklingenhoffer at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 14:34:01 2002 From: georgeklingenhoffer at hotmail.com (George Klingenhoffer) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:34:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] tab around flash Message-ID: I've got a problem with a Flash banner-ad. I can't tab around it in IE6. When it attains focus, it does not relinquish the focus unless I use the mouse. Is this a bug in IE6? I can't seem to not allow it to be focus-able (is that a word?). example: www.sonicboomrecords.com/order.asp From pcnewsguy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 14:36:01 2002 From: pcnewsguy at yahoo.com (Patty McBride) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Object required: 'WScript' Message-ID: <20020603184623.43616.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Folks, I am running this simple script and can't create an object: Set WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell") I have checked out the following thread by Tab and executed each recomondation without resolving my own problem, thanks for the input everyone: http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20010813/054997.html I just correspounded with Tab who responded to me emmediatly with his solution, but unfortunatly this is not my case either: "network security software (e-safe) was preventing scripts from accessing the file system object," thanks Tab. ;-) My thinking now is that I am having trouble with IWAM* and IUSER* account permissions as aardvark suggested in: http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20010813/055103.html But I am unsure how to give them these permissions. I looked in dcomcnfg for WSH but could only find wshremote, not sure that is the right DCOM. Not sure if wscript is a dcom. Sorry I apologise in advance for my ignorance. Can anyone help me? Phil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From mike at nthwave.net Mon Jun 3 14:39:01 2002 From: mike at nthwave.net (Michael Mell) Date: Mon Jun 3 14:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation References: <000101c20b34$0f5ca550$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> Message-ID: <3CFBC5AD.EC5A4F53@nthwave.net> Given the <30K size of data, I would create form with hidden fields to contain the data of all 5000 records and a hidden field indicating the currently displayed count. Hitting "Next" submits the form, and PHP will display the desired next 30 records. You'll have to create your own format for organizing the data in the form. I would avoid xml because of the overhead of creating the files and parsing and general lack of usefulness in such a situation. I don't know of a script you can grab, but it should be pretty easy to code up. hth m Jay Blanchard wrote: > Simon, > > [snip]...stuff about MySQL LIMIT...[/snip] > > Thank you for your information. I am aware of and have used LIMIT for many > queries in MySQL, but there is a problem here that I probably have not been > clear enough about. These 3000-5000 records exist in a table that has > millions of records. So for each query with LIMIT MySQL has to traverse all > of the records right up until it receives the limit amounts back The further > into the table you go, the worse the delay. The array, if I built one from > the desired records, would take up less memeory space than most front pages > on web sites (under 30k), making it rather quick on subsequent "pages". I > know how easy it is to do this with LIMIT and I wish that I could take > advantage of it. But I am afraid that speed is the largest issue at this > point. > > Thanks! > > Jay > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! -- mike[at]nthwave.net llemekim YahooIM 415.455.8812 voice 419.735.1167 fax From jyee at vt.edu Mon Jun 3 16:03:01 2002 From: jyee at vt.edu (jyee) Date: Mon Jun 3 16:03:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation Message-ID: <3D02CA56@zathras> I myself would still use MySQL to generate the results, but if you're sure that you want to do this, then I would suggest using the session handling functions in PHP to persist your array across pages, as it would be much better than encoding a thousand records in a form and submitting it via GET or POST. To use the functions, you need to register the variable that you want to use, such as session_register('Records'); , on every page that requires the records. Afterwards, you can do a simple assignment and fill up the array: $Records = array(); while ($Row = mysql_fetch_row($Result)) { $Records[] = $Row[0]; } On every page afterwards, $Records will be automatically loaded as a global variable and is ready for use, so if you wanted records 2010 through 2020, then you would simply do $Begin = 2010; $End = $Begin + 10 for ($i = $Begin; $i < $End; $i++) { // Output records } where you can embed $Begin as a value in your next or previous links. The documentation for the session handling functions are at http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.session.php Good luck with the project, and feel free to contact me if you have any code questions. I use session handling on my website to store login and timeout information, and it's been a very convenient way of not having to query my database on every page. Regards, Jackson Yee jyee at vt.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Blanchard" To: Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 15:22 Subject: RE: [thelist] PHP Previous Next Navigation > Simon, > > [snip]...stuff about MySQL LIMIT...[/snip] > > Thank you for your information. I am aware of and have used LIMIT for many > queries in MySQL, but there is a problem here that I probably have not been > clear enough about. These 3000-5000 records exist in a table that has > millions of records. So for each query with LIMIT MySQL has to traverse all > of the records right up until it receives the limit amounts back The further > into the table you go, the worse the delay. The array, if I built one from > the desired records, would take up less memeory space than most front pages > on web sites (under 30k), making it rather quick on subsequent "pages". I > know how easy it is to do this with LIMIT and I wish that I could take > advantage of it. But I am afraid that speed is the largest issue at this > point. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Jun 3 16:09:03 2002 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Jun 3 16:09:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] May 2002 stats for evolt.org Message-ID: Hello evolters! The stats for May are hot off the press for your viewing pleasure. ## Brief Perusal ## Hits: 2.6 million (new record by 200,000!) Page Views: 900,500 (another new record by 75,000!) Page Views/day: 29,500 Unique hosts served: 127,200 Data Transferred: 140GB (new record by almost 38GB!) ## Nitty Gritty ## Top Referrers google (google.com, google.ca, google.co.uk, etc.) about 175,000 peterme.com about 6000 blueigloo.org - 3134 userland.com - 2532 Browsers & OS info MSIE-based clients held down the fort with about 71% of requests Netscape clients brought home 9.2% while Opera came in with 2.4%. Konqueror came in with 0.36%. Windows systems account for 75.4% (99 requests from WindowsCE!) Mac 4.5% Unix 3.3% (3% of which is Linux) WebTV 0.2% Werd up to the person who's visiting evolt with Atari! Top 10 members.evolt.org accounts: 1. http://members.evolt.org/marceloslg 2. http://members.evolt.org/desflynn 3. http://members.evolt.org/deadL0ck 4. http://members.evolt.org/DarthGreg 5. http://members.evolt.org/jesteruk 6. http://members.evolt.org/djc 7. http://members.evolt.org/mwarden (look out!) 8. http://members.evolt.org/shaggy 9. http://members.evolt.org/kroet 10.http://members.evolt.org/bumblelee ## The Nitty Nitty Gritty ## http://browsers.evolt.org/stats/stats.may2002.html (yes, i love horizontal scroll too) Comments? Questions? Like long walks on the beach? Shoot me an email. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com Find the how, what, and why you should consider a donation to evolt.org - http://members.evolt.org/contribute/ From n at industriality.com Mon Jun 3 16:17:01 2002 From: n at industriality.com (Nik Schramm) Date: Mon Jun 3 16:17:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? In-Reply-To: <200206031604.g53G4eCN026132@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000a01c20b43$d0a62920$0b00a8c0@didda> >>(aka browserwatch.internet.com) When a resource you are looking for suddenly disappears into the dephts of cyberspace, you can use the Web Archive to look at older versions of the site. Check it out @ http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://browserwatch.internet.com , it might just solve your UA String problem. /nik www.industriality.com - candy for the inner eye From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Mon Jun 3 16:24:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Mon Jun 3 16:24:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Moving away from layout tables Message-ID: That's still not *quite* it ... The problem with that method is that radio buttons are just a touch taller than regular text, so if the text only takes up 1 line, whatever is beneath the label text gets floated to the left of the radio button. I get this (again, * = radio button): * this is a sample * this is another sample that is longer I can put in a hard
to correct this, but then I get undesirable whitespace: * this is a sample * this is another sample that is longer Ideas, anyone? Jonathan. -----Original Message----- From: Craig Saila [mailto:crsaila at yahoo.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:57 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Moving away from layout tables In fact yes, and this is probably a better way (didn't think of it before). Float the INPUT still, but wrap the text in a block element with a wide left margin: INPUT.radio { float: left; } P.label { margin-left: 30px; } With the HTML:

This is a descriptor

-- Cheers, Craig Saila From richard.bennett at skynet.be Mon Jun 3 17:17:00 2002 From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett) Date: Mon Jun 3 17:17:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad Message-ID: <022801c20b4c$43958e50$ee9388d9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> If this isn't irony I don't know what is: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0206/03.macromedia.php Macromedia and Jakob Nielsen, Ph.D., usability guru and founder of Nielsen Norman Group, have entered into a strategic relationship to focus on improving the usability of rich Internet applications and content... From pixelmech at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 17:47:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Mon Jun 3 17:47:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: <022801c20b4c$43958e50$ee9388d9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> Message-ID: <20020603224642.92982.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Holy Hypocrosy Batman! Anyway I wanted to share a little tip I've been using to help myself debug JavaScripts. We all know that using alert(); can help you track your bugs down in scripts. However, sometimes the alert can be a bit of a pain. In particular, I was trying to debug a script with an onMouseMove event, and guess what you get with an alert inside that event...you got it, an endless loop! (kind of) yay! So instead, I simply wrote whatever I wanted to see in the status bar. Not only did this allow me to get the info I wanted, but I could break out of the page at any time. Plus, I don't have to click off or press return to get rid of the thing. Petty, I know - but I like it. Tom --- Richard Bennett wrote: > If this isn't irony I don't know what is: > > http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0206/03.macromedia.php > > Macromedia and Jakob Nielsen, Ph.D., > usability guru and founder of Nielsen > Norman Group, have entered into a strategic > relationship to focus on improving the usability > of rich Internet applications and content... > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Jun 3 18:07:00 2002 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Jun 3 18:07:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: <20020603224642.92982.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 3, Tom Dell'Aringa had something to say about Re: [thelist] Jakob... >Holy Hypocrosy Batman! It's not quite hyprocrisy. The EPA goes to the most polluted areas, for instance. As much as I'm not a Nielsen fan, I think there could be some good that comes out of this. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From evolt at pixelwright.com Mon Jun 3 18:23:01 2002 From: evolt at pixelwright.com (James Aylard) Date: Mon Jun 3 18:23:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Free screen readers References: <000001c20985$31f0a4f0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Message-ID: <018b01c20b55$93f0e940$2860398a@newcos.com> Francis, > Does anyone know of any free screen readers out there? If you have Windows 2000, Narrator is included with the OS. It's nothing fancy, but you don't have to pay extra for it, either. James Aylard From Evolt at ZName.com Mon Jun 3 18:48:01 2002 From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt)) Date: Mon Jun 3 18:48:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ============================= It's not quite hyprocrisy. The EPA goes to the most polluted areas, for instance. As much as I'm not a Nielsen fan, I think there could be some good that comes out of this. ============================= True. But this strikes me more like the company that pollutes the most, hiring the top EPA critic as an advisor for the company. James S. Huggins ... From codebitch at macedition.com Mon Jun 3 19:12:03 2002 From: codebitch at macedition.com (CodeBitch) Date: Mon Jun 3 19:12:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? In-Reply-To: <20020603170421.D70F03A54@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: On 4/6/02 4:04 AM, "nagrom" wrote: > > aardvark, > > >> (aka browserwatch.internet.com) >> >> that used to be a keen place to go look up browser stats, UA >> strings, browser news, etc... >> >> went there this morning and instead got that internet.com >> monolithic crap content page... the nearest thing i can find in their >> all-but-useless site navigation and search engine is: >> http://ipw.internet.com/clients_servers/web_browsers/index.html >> > [..] > > a bummer indeed, lets hope he's updating it or something.... > > w3schools has a similiar thing, though not as good: > http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp Dave G is still alive and well, but he stopped doing BrowserWatch some time ago. Another guy whose name I forget was operating the site for the last year or so of its existence. As time went on, it stopped getting updated. I wasn't sorry to see its latter incarnation go; it had nothing to recommend it, IMO. The only similar site I know of is Charles Upsdell's Browser News site: http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/index.htm Note: W3School's stats page is just republished TheCounter.com data, which is dodgy rubbish, for all the reasons discussed over on the CSS-Discuss list (check the archives for posts by me in the past month and others in the same threads). If you want to know about the audience of an existing site, you need to do your own analysis of the logs, preferably with my Analog config file (-; http://www.macedition.com/cb/manconf.cfg Alternatively you can check out other people's stats using a Google search like this one: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22Web+Server+S tatistics+for%22 Naturally this isn't very scientific sampling, but if you find a few sites with similar target audiences to yours, it might be helpful. Cheers, CB http://www.macedition.com/cb/ From don at aspalliance.com Mon Jun 3 22:40:01 2002 From: don at aspalliance.com (Don Makoviney) Date: Mon Jun 3 22:40:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, it wouldn't be that AT ALL. If it were you would be stating that Nielsen approves of gratuitous use of FLASH, which he does not. Okay, I'm officially sick of this thread. Please die. Don Makoviney MAKOVISION.COM "Handpicked News For Internet Developers" http://www.makovision.com/ Get the FREE Newsletter "Cutting Through The Crap" http://www.makovision.com/subs/ -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of James S. Huggins (Evolt) Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 7:48 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad ============================= It's not quite hyprocrisy. The EPA goes to the most polluted areas, for instance. As much as I'm not a Nielsen fan, I think there could be some good that comes out of this. ============================= True. But this strikes me more like the company that pollutes the most, hiring the top EPA critic as an advisor for the company. James S. Huggins ... -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From headlines at lists.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 00:11:01 2002 From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines) Date: Tue Jun 4 00:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 03-JUN-02 Message-ID: <200206040510.g545A1nw006032@leo.evolt.org> evolt.org headlines for 03-JUN-02 Hi evolters! We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone else: Code: Forms & JavaScript Living Together in Harmony (Author: .jeff) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/17/28553/index.html Most developers don't surf the web with JavaScript turned off on purpose (with the obvious exception of the aardvark) so they probably aren't aware of the devastating effects caused by the irresponsible use of JavaScript when working with forms. Fortunately, there are rarely instances where this lack of respect for the non-JavaScript users is necessary. Read this article to find out why. Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site. Happy reading! evolt.org From dbaxo at ihug.co.nz Tue Jun 4 00:12:02 2002 From: dbaxo at ihug.co.nz (Duncan O'Neill) Date: Tue Jun 4 00:12:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? References: Message-ID: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> Code bitch: > Alternatively you can check out other people's stats using a Google search > like this one: > http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22Web+Server+S > tatistics+for%22 > Naturally this isn't very scientific sampling, but if you find a few sites > with similar target audiences to yours, it might be helpful. I've been having a look through some of these stats, finding some quite useful. Just one question I hope someone can answer : There are visits listed for Netscape v.5. I was under the impression that there never was a Navigator version 5. Does this mean these visitors should be counted as Netscape 6+? cheers, Duncan O'Neill ============================================ From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu Tue Jun 4 00:23:01 2002 From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski) Date: Tue Jun 4 00:23:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] what happened to browserwatch.com? In-Reply-To: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> (dbaxo@ihug.co.nz) References: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> Message-ID: <200206040522.BAA02123@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> > Just one question I hope someone can answer : There are visits listed for > Netscape v.5. I was under the impression that there never was a Navigator > version 5. Does this mean these visitors should be counted as Netscape 6+? Yes. Although the marketeers dubbed the version following the 4 series Netscape 6, it is the fifth Navigator, and the version string acknowledges this fact. I'd be curious to see what the version string for Netscape 7 will be -- will it be Navigator 5.5, based on a slightly later branch of Mozilla from 6, Navigator 6, the next version from 5, or Navigator 7? Whichever way it goes, I have a feeling things are about to get a little (more) confusing. . . . jis jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu -- Jonathon Isaac Swiderski jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu "What we have to learn to do we learn by doing" -- Aristotle, Ethica Nicomachea II (c 325 BC) From ashok at magicalkenya.com Tue Jun 4 01:41:01 2002 From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 01:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Object required: 'WScript' Message-ID: Patty : Are you trying to access the WScript object within a .ASP script ? I think you are. WSH (windows scripting host ) is a scripting shell for windows meant to be used in place of batch files. It allows using VBScript /JScript to do administrative tasks on your Win2k server/workstation (typical stuff which used to be done by batch files...). When a WSH script executes the browser / web server is not the host for the script, the WScript object is the host. Which means the WScript object will not exist when you try to access it from a .ASP script....(since the web server a.k.a the Server object is the host) strictly speaking your WSH script execution will not have anything to do with IWAM or IUSR accounts as typically it is executed by an administrator/operator level user.... I think you should also take a look at : http://msdn.microsoft.com/scripting/ and the wsh faq : http://communities.msn.com/windowsscript to clarify where and when wsh should be used.... HTH ashok ------ ?$h?K http://www.unganisha.org Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be construed as a "if you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat ------ From isaac at triplezero.com.au Tue Jun 4 01:51:00 2002 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Tue Jun 4 01:51:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] evolt.org Community news - last chance for May Message-ID: Hi people, We're about to write-up and publish the evolt.org Community News for May. So, if you have anything newsworthy you'd like to submit, be sure to let us know via this contact form: http://evolt.org/contact/index.html Newsworthy things include stuff like getting your latest design online or any of the following: - winning an award - being mentioned on the news - getting married (especially to another evolter ;)) - finding a job (again, especially through evolt.org!) - getting your members.evolt.org site online - having a baby - getting a pet (and soliciting naming ideas on thechat) - finishing an epic project - starting a side project - winning your first tender - completing higher education - getting a site to validate - etc Don't be scared! Send in a paragraph of something you think other members would be interested in: http://evolt.org/contact/index.html Cheers! isaac - on behalf of evolt.org From charles at loveofcolor.org Tue Jun 4 01:51:10 2002 From: charles at loveofcolor.org (charles wilson) Date: Tue Jun 4 01:51:10 2002 Subject: [thelist] RSS Parsing in Coldfusion Message-ID: <20020603230748.A3565@alice.cg.shawcable.net> I'm looking for a Coldfusion XML/RSS Parser. I looked all over Google, searched House of Fusion, and finally came, weeping, to the Macromedia DEV Exchange. I found CFX_RssParser: http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=AC51A958-8EF2-11D4-AAA700508B94F380&method=Full and RSS_NEWS: http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=57A7C8AF-5BCB-11D6-840300508B94F380&method=Full These are small starting tags, and the RssParser needs CF 5.0 it seems. Can anyone reccomend any other xml/rss parsers for Coldfusion? -charles From ashok at magicalkenya.com Tue Jun 4 02:23:01 2002 From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 02:23:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTML email to Notes users Message-ID: robert: the problem could be more with the config on the notes server side. each user in notes has a person document (a config file) on the server, you can set up the format for incoming mails by user over there. typical settings are Mime and notes rich text (which does a CD format conversion) - probably this setting is not done correctly ? there is a also problem in the way domino server converts incoming mail with embedded html which was fixed in rel. 5.0.7 (if you pick mail directly using a notes client you wont ecounter this problem...) they added a config setting for the notes server called 'mime_convert_html' or something like that - look it up in the lotus knowledge base for fixes with rel. 5.0.7.... ------ ?$h?K http://www.unganisha.org Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be construed as a "if you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat ------ From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jun 4 02:32:04 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jun 4 02:32:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? [was what happened to browserwatch.com?] References: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> <200206040522.BAA02123@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> Message-ID: <00b401c20b99$8742d0c0$7e0ae343@oemcomputer> Interesting. Now am really confused. I asked the same question re Netscape 5 to TheCounter.com a few days ago. Here is their reply: >Before Netscape decided to skip a version number (in order to release >a 6.0 version at the same time as Internet Explorer 6.0) they released >beta versions that were identified as "5.0" in at the coding level, but still >marketed under a 4.xx moniker. >from TheCounter on 5/30/02 So, Netscape 5 is (are) beta versions of Netscape 6? I head last year that Netscape 6.0 was the alpha version, Netscape 6.1 was the beta version, and Netscape 6.2 was THE release. And TheCounter doesn't actually say whether to include your count of 5 as 4 or 6. Could you enlighten me as to the validity of my "facts"? Sorta like, who's on first? Sharon On Monday, June 03, 2002 10:22 PM Jonathon Isaac Swiderski replied: to this question: > > Just one question I hope someone can answer : There are visits listed for > > Netscape v.5. I was under the impression that there never was a Navigator > > version 5. Does this mean these visitors should be counted as Netscape 6+? > > Yes. Although the marketeers dubbed the version following the 4 series Netscape > 6, it is the fifth Navigator, and the version string acknowledges this fact. [snipped] --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 4 02:41:01 2002 From: fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk (fstorr) Date: Tue Jun 4 02:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c20b9a$dfb86cf0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Actually, it wouldn't be that AT ALL. If it were you would be stating that Nielsen approves of gratuitous use of FLASH, which he does not. ___ I do remember reading/hearing somewhere that Macromedia approached Nielson during the development of Flash MX. The result being things like the new standardised elements within Flash MX like scrollbars, radio buttons etc. Which do seem to me like excellent things. Francis From evolt at accessibleinter.net Tue Jun 4 03:23:01 2002 From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason) Date: Tue Jun 4 03:23:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? [was what happened to browserwatch.com?] In-Reply-To: <00b401c20b99$8742d0c0$7e0ae343@oemcomputer> References: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> <200206040522.BAA02123@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604010708.009fe310@accessibleinter.net> At 12:29 AM 06/04/2002, Sharon F. Malone wrote: >So, Netscape 5 is (are) beta versions of Netscape 6? Netscape 5, if I recall correctly, was another iteration of 4.x coding. It was not based on the current Mozilla code so really isn't a 6.x beta. >I head last year that Netscape 6.0 was the alpha version, Netscape 6.1 was >the beta version, and Netscape 6.2 was THE release. Inasmuch as 6.0 was based on very early Mozilla work (pre 0.6), you could call it alpha-quality. Netscape 6.1 is based on Mozilla 0.9.2, and Netscape 6.2 is based on Mozilla 0.9.4. So in a way, it's still in beta. The current "preview release 1" of Netscape 7 is based on Mozilla 1.0 RC2. >And TheCounter doesn't actually say whether to include your count of 5 as >4 or 6. Could you enlighten me as to the validity of my "facts"? Sorta >like, who's on first? All Netscape 6.x releases have "Mozilla/5.0" at the start of their user agent string, so can be identified as "Netscape 5" depending how much the user agent string is examined/parsed. "Netscape 5" up until recently could be considered a 6.x release, but the user agent string of Netscape 7 also has "Mozilla/5.0" at the start. So unless you parse the user agent string further ("Netscape 6" and "Netscape 7" appear later in the string of the respective browsers), "Netscape 5" will soon be indistinguishable as to whether it represents Netscape 6.x or 7.x. Bill Mason Accessible Internet evolt at accessibleinter.net http://www.accessibleinter.net/ From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Tue Jun 4 03:36:01 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Tue Jun 4 03:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Free screen readers References: <000001c20985$31f0a4f0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> <018b01c20b55$93f0e940$2860398a@newcos.com> Message-ID: <005501c20ba2$c104cd00$9aeadccb@max1> > > Does anyone know of any free screen readers out there? > If you have Windows 2000, Narrator is included with the OS. It's nothing > fancy, but you don't have to pay extra for it, either. > > James Aylard Narrator is also included in Windows XP and can be accessed simply by pressing the 'windows' key and U. Craig. From mark at cyberfuddle.com Tue Jun 4 03:45:01 2002 From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher) Date: Tue Jun 4 03:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? [was what happened to browserwatch.com?] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604010708.009fe310@accessibleinter.net> References: <002201c20b87$04a1d380$e4dcadcb@duncano> <200206040522.BAA02123@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020604010708.009fe310@accessibleinter.net> Message-ID: <20020604084133.5942.qmail@carme.affordablehost.com> Bill Mason writes: > At 12:29 AM 06/04/2002, Sharon F. Malone wrote: >> So, Netscape 5 is (are) beta versions of Netscape 6? > > Netscape 5, if I recall correctly, was another iteration of 4.x coding. > It > was not based on the current Mozilla code so really isn't a 6.x beta. "Netscape 5" doesn't actually exist. However, Mozilla appears as "Mozilla/5.0" - here's a sample (from my logs): Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020512 Many interpreters would simply assume that this is Netscape. Netscape 6 adds a "Netscape 6.2" (or similar) to the end of the string, so whenever that appears, the interpreter can simply say "okay, that's NS6". But most aren't intelligent enough to say that the quoted string comes from Mozilla 1 RC2, so they simply say "hmmm, must be some Netscape 5". Maybe that helps. Maybe it's irrelevant. Anyways. -- Mark Gallagher http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/ From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Tue Jun 4 04:21:03 2002 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Tue Jun 4 04:21:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? [was what happened to browserwatch.com?] Message-ID: >Interesting. Now am really confused. Creating the most confusing version numbers possible is definitely an important goal of the Mozilla project. So I'm glad to see it has succeeded . >So, Netscape 5 is (are) beta versions of Netscape 6? I head last year that >Netscape 6.0 was the alpha version, Netscape 6.1 was the beta version, and >Netscape 6.2 was THE release. And TheCounter doesn't actually say whether >to include your count of 5 as 4 or 6. Could you enlighten me as to the >validity of my "facts"? Sorta like, who's on first? Netscape 4's browser string started with 'Mozilla/4.' to indicate it uses Version 4 of the Mozilla code engine. The Mozilla Project is responsible for creating Version 5 of this code engine, hence the browser strings of all Netscape's above 4 starts with 'Mozilla/5.0'. Some browser detects use this version number, so they will always report any Netscape/Mozilla above 4 as 'Netscape 5'. Early in the Mozilla project it was assumed that the eventual result would be the Netscape 5 browser. However, when the project went overdue for many years, AOL upgraded the version number. The first official Netscape release thus had a version number of 6, and 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 followed in succession. They were based on Mozilla pre-releases that weren't perfect yet. Netscape 6.2 is *not* a final release, there hasn't yet been any final release. Netscape 6.2 was the first one that could actually be used as a browser, though there were some problems still. Recently AOL has once again upgraded the version number to Netscape 7. Basically this is Netscape 6.3, the next pre-release in an increasingly long line of pre-releases. The advantage is that the Netscape version number is now equal to the version number of the AOL skin it will (presumably) be used with: AOL 7 uses Netscape 7. Some browser detects look for the official Netscape version number, so they will report visitors as using Netscape 6 or 7, but never 5. Mozilla still hasn't produced a stable, working code engine. But it has decided that, confusingly, this code engine will be named 'Mozilla 1.0' and not 'Mozilla 5.0' as one would expect. The current version is Mozilla 1.0 Release Candidate 3. Nobody knows what 'Release Candidate' means, except that it means that Mozilla 1.0 isn't ready yet. Hope this helps a bit, but yes, the situation is very confusing. ppk _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From saidovan at rs.uovs.ac.za Tue Jun 4 04:23:04 2002 From: saidovan at rs.uovs.ac.za (Ms N Saidova) Date: Tue Jun 4 04:23:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Populating arrays dynamically Message-ID: <3CFCA304.9893.5798942@localhost> Hi there, Can someone tell me how I can, in PHP, populate multidimensional arrays dynamically with results from the database? (I used to do that in ASP with GetRows().) Here is the thing. I need data from tables lying in 2 separate databases, and because as far as I know you cannot connect to more than one database at a time, I thought I should get the results from the one database, populate a multidimensional array with those, close that connection, open a new one to the second database and do the rest of the query. Or am I taking the long route here? Any suggestions much appreciated. Nedret From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jun 4 05:38:00 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jun 4 05:38:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Perl/PHP/mySQL required to download software? Message-ID: <01e701c20bb3$76a6f560$7e0ae343@oemcomputer> Really could use some direction here. I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then process the credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer and to my client. Once my client receives the payment confirmation he will then generate a customized registration number based on the Buyer's registration name so the number will be completely personalized. Client also will generate a personalized copy of the program using the registration number and also use the registration number as a password to allow the customer to download their personalized copy of the program from Client's web site. I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what backend stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call the appropriate registration number (User ID #) program for each buyer to download. I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't know what that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites to see how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I see the code but I don't understand it. Example I found: . What does hscdl mean? Client thinks he doesn't have to rely on the host for keeping his transaction records in a database on their server. He thinks this will be a manual process he will handle, but later he can automate this process on the host server. I think it entails something from the get go involving Perl or PHP and mySQL Doesn't make sense to me otherwise. Or, I could create a restricted directory and subdirs on the server to which my client could upload each individual program purchased to a specific subdir. I would set up another FTP Session Profile and these instructions could be emailed to the Buyer ... who could then download using FTP, not using the web site. Have already done that with another client so I'm familiar with it. It's the backend stuff I don't know how to do. Sorry for the length of this question(s)! Am I thinking this through correctly? What about client's thoughts on this? And what in heaven's name does hscdl mean? Best, Sharon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jun 4 06:00:01 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jun 4 06:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? References: Message-ID: <020301c20bb6$a0449dc0$7e0ae343@oemcomputer> Thanks for all your input. I think I understand a little better who is actually on first! Don't ask me about second base tho. (<8 So could I "safely" count Netscape 5 results in with the results for Netscape 6? Presently TheCounter.com reports 0% of visitors are using Netscape 6 (ah, the time I've spent making sure web pages look good in Netscape 6 and we end up with 0%!). But I keep thinking that if AOL comes out soon with N7 as the default browser (rather than IE), all the time and effort will have paid off. I'm approaching this from the viewpoint of explaining these stats a little better to a client who uses TheCounter.com's stats reporting. sharon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From abbey at abbeyink.com Tue Jun 4 06:08:01 2002 From: abbey at abbeyink.com (Tamara) Date: Tue Jun 4 06:08:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Free screen readers In-Reply-To: <018b01c20b55$93f0e940$2860398a@newcos.com> References: <000001c20985$31f0a4f0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> <018b01c20b55$93f0e940$2860398a@newcos.com> Message-ID: <200206041107.g54B7TCN018181@leo.evolt.org> On Monday 03 June 2002 06:22 pm, you wrote: > Francis, > > > Does anyone know of any free screen readers out there? http://wemedia.com/ They offer a free talking web browser. HTH a little From cvos at netpaths.net Tue Jun 4 06:30:02 2002 From: cvos at netpaths.net (Cayley Vos) Date: Tue Jun 4 06:30:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: <20020604111057.6C775C04F@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: Just launched this heavy duty job today. If the website lasts half as long as the boats do, I will be a proud parent indeed http://workskiff.com Cayley Vos, Principal office: 360-714-8395 cell: 360-303-0150 http://netpaths.net _______________________________________________________ web hosting | search engine marketing | web development From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Tue Jun 4 06:48:01 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Tue Jun 4 06:48:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c20bbd$dfe693f0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> [snip] Just launched this heavy duty job today. If the website lasts half as long as the boats do, I will be a proud parent indeed http://workskiff.com [/snip] Very nice Cayley. The only thing that I can see that I would be critical of is that the text does not resize when you set browser options (WinXP, IE6). I can see where that might break the layout though. Jay Are you finding yourself juggling more and more projects and getting less and less done? It's time to schedule appointments with yourself! Set up a weekly calendar and block off time for each project during the week, and then follow that calendar. Stick to the schedule as rigorously as possible (things come up, and there is nothing wrong with that). Don't forget to schedule yourself some personal time on that calendar, eat better, and get some sleep. You will be far more productive. From jedimaster at macromedia.com Tue Jun 4 07:01:01 2002 From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden) Date: Tue Jun 4 07:01:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RSS Parsing in Coldfusion In-Reply-To: <20020603230748.A3565@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <001a01c20bbf$0ebad6e0$6561a8c0@vader> You are aware, I assume, that CFMX has native XML support - would that work for you? ======================================================================= Raymond Camden, ColdFusion Jedi Master for Macromedia Email : jedimaster at macromedia.com Yahoo IM : morpheus "My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of charles wilson > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 1:08 AM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] RSS Parsing in Coldfusion > > > I'm looking for a Coldfusion XML/RSS Parser. > > I looked all over Google, searched House of Fusion, and finally came, > weeping, to the Macromedia DEV Exchange. > > I found CFX_RssParser: > http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=AC51 A958-8EF2-11D4-AAA700508B94F380&method=Full and RSS_NEWS: http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=57A7C8AF-5BCB- 11D6-840300508B94F380&method=Full These are small starting tags, and the RssParser needs CF 5.0 it seems. Can anyone reccomend any other xml/rss parsers for Coldfusion? -charles -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From simon at incutio.com Tue Jun 4 07:15:01 2002 From: simon at incutio.com (Simon Willison) Date: Tue Jun 4 07:15:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: References: <20020604111057.6C775C04F@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604131247.009e9d30@mail.incutio.com> At 04:29 04/06/02 -0700, Cayley Vos wrote: >Just launched this heavy duty job today. If the website lasts half as long >as the boats do, I will be a proud parent indeed > >http://workskiff.com The site looks great in IE6, but has a few problems in the latest version of Mozilla. Here's a screenshot: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~cs1spw/images/screenshots/workskiff-in-mozilla.png From webdad at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jun 4 07:42:08 2002 From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert) Date: Tue Jun 4 07:42:08 2002 Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c20bc5$dfd29d20$f25d2241@tampabay.rr.com> Looks great! I like the layout and colors you used, I do have a couple of suggestions. 1) In 800 X 600 res you have to scroll both on the horizontal and the vertical, the horizontal isn't that much but the for the vertical, it's enough to hide the top navigation, I would suggest adding some text navigation links at the bottom (just a habit with me I guess). 2) Your masthead "Aluminum Boats For Severe Service WORKSKIFF inc." is linked to your specs.php page(intentional?) and unless you mouse over it slowly enough you wouldn't know that was a link. You have a specs nav link up on top with the other navigation, is there a need to have this linked?, if so you may need some indication that this will lead to the specifications page. Bob ...-----Original Message----- ...From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org ...[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Cayley Vos ...Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 7:30 AM ...To: evolt ...Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com ... ... ...Just launched this heavy duty job today. If the website ...lasts half as long ...as the boats do, I will be a proud parent indeed ... ...http://workskiff.com ... ... ...Cayley Vos, Principal ...office: 360-714-8395 ...cell: 360-303-0150 ...http://netpaths.net ..._______________________________________________________ ...web hosting | search engine marketing | web development ... ...-- ...For unsubscribe and other options, including ...the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: ...http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ...--- ...Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ...Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ...Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02 ... From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jun 4 08:48:00 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 08:48:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS and Mozilla Message-ID: Wondering how your CSS1 looks in Mozilla? http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/bugspecs/REC-CSS1.html It's a copy of the CSS1 spec, but the Mozilla team (JKeiser?) has added Mozilla bug lists where appropriate in the spec. So you can look up a CSS1 attribute, and see if there's a known problem in Mozilla with it. Don't that make life easier? And don't we wish MS would produce something similar for IE? Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From pcnewsguy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 08:49:04 2002 From: pcnewsguy at yahoo.com (Patty McBride) Date: Tue Jun 4 08:49:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Object required: 'WScript' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604131114.16791.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> Your asumption was correct. Awesome explaination! Thanks for considering my question. I will check out these links you gave me. --- ashok at magicalkenya.com wrote: > Patty : > > Are you trying to access the WScript object within a > .ASP script ? > I think you are. > WSH (windows scripting host ) is a scripting shell > for windows meant to be > used in place of batch files. It allows using > VBScript /JScript to do > administrative tasks on your Win2k > server/workstation (typical stuff which > used to be done by batch files...). > > When a WSH script executes the browser / web server > is not the host for > the script, the WScript object is the host. Which > means the WScript object > will not exist when you try to access it from a .ASP > script....(since the > web server a.k.a the Server object is the host) > > strictly speaking your WSH script execution will not > have anything to do > with IWAM or IUSR accounts as typically it is > executed by an > administrator/operator level user.... > > I think you should also take a look at : > http://msdn.microsoft.com/scripting/ > and the wsh faq : > http://communities.msn.com/windowsscript > > to clarify where and when wsh should be used.... > > > HTH > ashok > > > > > > ------ > ?$h?K > http://www.unganisha.org > Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be > construed as a "if > you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat > ------ > > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From pcnewsguy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 08:49:15 2002 From: pcnewsguy at yahoo.com (Patty McBride) Date: Tue Jun 4 08:49:15 2002 Subject: [thelist] (no subject) Message-ID: <20020604134004.77386.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Folks, I trying to get my system to execute a perl script on my server for a client. I am confused because the code I inherited used to work on NT 4 but now does not on WIN 2000 Server. After some discussion with ashok about WSH I reviewed my tests and got the following to work: Dim WshShell Set WshShell = CreateObject("WScript.Shell") Response.write("WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: " & WSHshell.CurrentDirectory) It printed out: WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: C:\WINNT\system32 So I got an object but what kind of object? I can get the property CurrentDirectory of the IWshRuntimeLibrary class WSHshell to tell me the CurrentDirectory but I have yet to get it to run one of its methods. I tried this test as an additional line to the above .asp script: WshShell.Run "C:\WINNT\system32\calc.exe" But it does nothing. No error. No Calculator popping up as I would asume it would??? I am expecting the same behavior as I would if I had typed calc from the command line or in the run field from the start menu. This doesn't work either: WshShell.Run "calc" This used to work on NT 4: Function extractArticles(strParameters) Dim WSHshell set WSHshell=createObject("WScript.Shell") on error resume next extractArticles=WSHshell.run ("D:\perl\bin\perl.exe " & databasePath & "extractArticles.pl " & strParameters,4,TRUE) End Function and stopped when I switched to 2000 Server. Again, no error, no results either. This perl script extracts articles from a database to a directory in the server. It works from the command line... Cheers, Phil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From mark at markgroen.com Tue Jun 4 08:52:01 2002 From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen) Date: Tue Jun 4 08:52:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: <001401c20bc5$dfd29d20$f25d2241@tampabay.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <3CFC62C6.27379.38ADF4@localhost> > Looks great! I like the layout and colors you used, I do have a couple > of suggestions. > > 1) In 800 X 600 res you have to scroll both on the horizontal and the > vertical, the horizontal isn't that much but the for the vertical, > it's enough to hide the top navigation, I would suggest adding some > text navigation links at the bottom (just a habit with me I guess). All the pages requires a right scroll to read on my 800x600 monitor also. I think adding text-align:center; to your css body tag would align your first large table and make it fit without scrolling, also adding align="center" to that table tag should work too. The table itself would fit on the screen without scrolling then I think. Good colours for such industrial boats and an industrial looking web site, scrolling right was the only thing that threw me. From mpember at phreaker.net Tue Jun 4 08:56:01 2002 From: mpember at phreaker.net (Michael Pemberton) Date: Tue Jun 4 08:56:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Populating arrays dynamically References: <3CFCA304.9893.5798942@localhost> Message-ID: <3CFCC6BF.10208@phreaker.net> Ms N Saidova wrote: >Hi there, > >Can someone tell me how I can, in PHP, populate >multidimensional arrays dynamically with results from the >database? (I used to do that in ASP with GetRows().) > >Here is the thing. I need data from tables lying in 2 separate >databases, and because as far as I know you cannot connect to >more than one database at a time, I thought I should get the >results from the one database, populate a multidimensional array >with those, close that connection, open a new one to the second >database and do the rest of the query. > >Or am I taking the long route here? >Any suggestions much appreciated. > >Nedret > > > Can you show some of your code? There is definately a method of access two databases simultaniously. The trick is to make sure that you are using the connection and result pointers. This is how you tell PHP which database / set of results to work with. I currently do the reverse and populate a 3d array from two separate files and then create insert the results into a mysql database. If you post me a sample offlist, I can try going into more detail. -- Michael Pemberton mpember at phreaker.net ICQ: 12107010 From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 09:04:00 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:04:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20020604134004.77386.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I tried this test as an additional line to > the above .asp script: > WshShell.Run "C:\WINNT\system32\calc.exe" > But it does nothing. No error. No Calculator > popping up as I would asume it would??? Sorry, but you *are* expecting the calculator to pop up on the server, and not your development machine, right? Just pointing out the obvious, since that's all I know... You also checked the IUSR permissions to make sure that account has execute privileges for c:\WINNT\system32\? HTH, -Ken "Captain Obvious" Kogler From sskulic at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 09:09:07 2002 From: sskulic at yahoo.com (Sasa K.) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:09:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting Message-ID: <20020604140833.51120.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Please, what is your experience with ReadyHosting? They have really good packages, too good actually. What is the catch? Thanks. Sasha ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From hershelr at netvision.net.il Tue Jun 4 09:12:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Burnt Viruses Message-ID: <013401c20bd7$d90dce30$0101c80a@hershel> I have a software firewall, currently Sygate Personal Firewall (although I plan to change soon with some evolt-list info I have received recently). It catches and blocks certain outgoing events a few times a day. Some are Ping of Death and the others are of a different type (I can't recall nor find them in the log at present). The log does not record an application involved with any of these events. I am guessing they are caused by a virus I have. My firewall seems to be catching them so nothing's happening, but I imagine I should try to clean them out anyhow, no? Thanks, Hershel From David at softv.net Tue Jun 4 09:25:00 2002 From: David at softv.net (David at softv.net) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:25:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting Message-ID: <353A2A1683F6D511B04C0002A551BBB80FAE67@SOFTVMAIL> I signed up for the $99/year deal. After my year was up I switched to a host that actually responded to my customer service requests. Dave http://java.dbmdata.com >>Please, what is your experience with ReadyHosting? >>They have really good packages, too good actually. >>What is the catch? From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 09:37:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:37:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting In-Reply-To: <20020604140833.51120.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Please, what is your experience with ReadyHosting? > They have really good packages, too good actually. > What is the catch? I've had a heck of a rollercoaster ride with RH over the last 18 months or so. I signed up with them back in October of 2000, and I've now got multiple accounts through them. On the whole, they're very good. Some things I like: - Cheap! - Friendly phone support (especially the ladies in the billing dept!) - 18 months of service, and only 2 major problems - Reseller plan is profitable - unlimited mail accounts - haven't received a "you're using too much bandwidth" email yet - recently added a whole lot more customer service people - they've got a nice stats program I do have a few gripes, though: - If you need to call their tech support, you can expect to wait oh hold for quite some time. I've had hold times longer than 90 minutes before (but in the last few months, it's been more like 5 - 10 minutes). - Their e-mail based tech support system is terrible. I just want to call them and talk to a real person... their business hours are rather inconvenient, as I don't do any dev work on my personal sites until late at night, and their phone staff goes home at 6:00 or 7:00pm. - They had someone hack their entire network earlier in the year (January?) They lost entire sites AND THEIR BACKUPS. They told customers to "just upload your most recent copy" and left it at that. They promised to take steps to prevent this sort of data loss in the future, but it's still scary as hell. I lost a whole site this way. It was database driven, and I didn't have a recent backup of the database (content changes daily thanks to an army of volunteers). I lost a good 3 weeks worth of content. - They're not very accommodating if you want them to install a new component on their servers. I had a legitimate case against their upload component, and I pointed them to a much better (and FREE) replacement, but they flatly denied it, calling it a "security risk", and refusing to elaborate. - They recommend using DSN connections, and when I had a DSN-less connection stop working (too many people using that driver), I called them and they told me that they don't support DSN-less connections, and I can fix my problem by changing to a DSN. Grr. DSNs suck. - Their web-based mail frontend. They've got at least 3 if not 4 different versions of it, and as most of my sites are on different servers, I've got different interfaces to work with. It's not so bad for me, but when one client calls me and has a question, I have to keep looking up with GUI they're working with so I can walk them through it... that's damn annoying. I could probably keep on going forever. The point is, you get what you pay for. I'd recommend it for personal sites and small businesses, but not much more than that. You'll always run into some bad experiences with whatever web host you choose, so keep in mind that no one's perfect. If you want more info, e-mail me offlist (ken.kogler at curf.edu) and I'll be glad to help. -Ken Kogler From ashok at magicalkenya.com Tue Jun 4 09:39:04 2002 From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:39:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] WScript.Shell was:(no subject) Message-ID: >It printed out: >WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: C:\WINNT\system32 >So I got an object but what kind of object? This gives the current directory of the running process... What version of WSH are you using ? I hope you are using 5.6 .... try running the script below to determine your version you should be running something like 5.6.xx (I assume you are using Cscript.exe or Wscript.exe to execute your scripts directly on the server i.e. not remotely..) WScript.Echo("Version " & ScriptEngineMajorVersion & "." & ScriptEngineMinorVersion & "." & ScriptEngineBuildVersion) with version 5.0 the CurrentDirectory property is not available, my guess is you are running an older version of Wsh, upgrading would solve your problem... [or] you've got some kind of ACL related problem with executing exes on that directory...(check your permissions..) ciao ashok ------ ?$h?k h?R?h???? http://www.unganisha.org Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be construed as a "if you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat ------ From unganisha at hazard0us.org Tue Jun 4 09:39:16 2002 From: unganisha at hazard0us.org (unganisha at hazard0us.org) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:39:16 2002 Subject: [thelist] WScript.Shell was:(no subject) Message-ID: >It printed out: >WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: C:\WINNT\system32 >So I got an object but what kind of object? This gives the current directory of the running process... What version of WSH are you using ? You should use 5.6 .... try running the script below to determine your version you should be running something like 5.6.xx (I hope you are using Cscript.exe or Wscript.exe to execute your scripts ?) WScript.Echo("Version " & ScriptEngineMajorVersion & "." & ScriptEngineMinorVersion & "." & ScriptEngineBuildVersion) with version 5.0 the CurrentDirectory property is not available, my guess is you are running an older version of Wsh, upgrading would solve your problem... ciao ashok ------ ?$h?k h?R?h???? http://www.unganisha.org Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be construed as a "if you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat ------ From pcnewsguy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 09:39:25 2002 From: pcnewsguy at yahoo.com (Patty McBride) Date: Tue Jun 4 09:39:25 2002 Subject: [thelist] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604142736.94948.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ken, Yes I am. The server is on the development machine in this case. Just a simple test that should have obviouse results. I haven't checked to see if IUSR has execute permissions for c:\WINNT\system32\. But two questions about that. 1.) Is that nessesarily a good thing to do? 2.) How would I do it? Cheers, Phil --- Ken Kogler wrote: > > I tried this test as an additional line to > > the above .asp script: > > WshShell.Run "C:\WINNT\system32\calc.exe" > > > But it does nothing. No error. No Calculator > > popping up as I would asume it would??? > > Sorry, but you *are* expecting the calculator to pop > up on the server, and > not your development machine, right? Just pointing > out the obvious, since > that's all I know... > > You also checked the IUSR permissions to make sure > that account has execute > privileges for c:\WINNT\system32\? > > HTH, > > -Ken "Captain Obvious" Kogler > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com Tue Jun 4 10:07:01 2002 From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604095905.01ad4c30@mail.imaginuity.com> I have a project manager who is looking to find out the page weight (in Kb) of some sites that are not local (like, say, IBM.com). Bobby *used* to calculate this but doesn't appear to do so anymore. Web Site Garage (which I loathe) appears to have gone pay only. If there is some software out there that can do it, that'd be fine, but there has to be something online, right? --Ben Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive http://www.imaginuity.com/ Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it. ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/ http://www.evolt.org/ From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jun 4 10:20:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:20:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad Message-ID: My first thought when I heard this was "Someone at Macromedia has been reading The Prince." Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From mail at jasoncartwright.com Tue Jun 4 10:20:07 2002 From: mail at jasoncartwright.com (Jason Cartwright) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:20:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Parsing URLs in ASP.net In-Reply-To: <20020604142736.94948.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c20bd7$dc72f230$0100a8c0@jason> Does anyone know of any tutorials on parsing URLs using ASP.net (VB script)? I'm looking to take a user's input and convert any urls they enter into HTML linking that url. Eg - http://www.foo.com or www.foo.com becomes... http://www.foo.com Thanks! Jason www.jasoncartwright.com From evolt at accessibleinter.net Tue Jun 4 10:22:03 2002 From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:22:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? In-Reply-To: <020301c20bb6$a0449dc0$7e0ae343@oemcomputer> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604081933.009f8ad0@accessibleinter.net> At 03:57 AM 06/04/2002, Sharon F. Malone wrote: >So could I "safely" count Netscape 5 results in with the results for >Netscape 6? I would say so. Any report showing Netscape 5 has more likely misidentified Netscape 6 rather than actually had a visitor using a pre-Mozilla "Netscape 5 beta". Just be wary if the client wants to differentiate between Netscape 6 and 7 for whatever reason. Bill Mason Accessible Internet evolt at accessibleinter.net http://www.accessibleinter.net/ From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 10:27:00 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:27:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604095905.01ad4c30@mail.imaginuity.com> Message-ID: <200206041526.g54FQECN031369@leo.evolt.org> > From: Ben Dyer > > I have a project manager who is looking to find out the page weight > (in Kb) of some sites that are not local (like, say, IBM.com). Bobby > *used* to calculate this but doesn't appear to do so anymore. Web > Site Garage (which I loathe) appears to have gone pay only. > > If there is some software out there that can do it, that'd be fine, > but there has to be something online, right? what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie that shows all the images on a page... it totals the file sizes at the end... if you saved the source code and checked its size, and added it to the image total, you'd have it... it works well enough for me that i haven't looked elsewhere... the tool is one of the ones in here: http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/ie/32bit/5.0/accessories/ although i couldn't tell you which one it is... and it's only good for IE5.x/win... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From eric.d.means at boeing.com Tue Jun 4 10:35:01 2002 From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:35:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for t he count? Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EA0@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Mason [mailto:evolt at accessibleinter.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 10:21 AM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? > > At 03:57 AM 06/04/2002, Sharon F. Malone wrote: > >So could I "safely" count Netscape 5 results in with the results for > >Netscape 6? > > I would say so. Any report showing Netscape 5 has more likely > misidentified Netscape 6 rather than actually had a visitor using a > pre-Mozilla "Netscape 5 beta". Mozilla 1.0RC3 reports the following UA string (on Win2k, obviously): Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc3) Gecko/20020523 For contrast, Netscape 4.77 reports thusly: Mozilla/4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) It's entirely probable that anything reported as "Netscape 5" is actually a misidentified Mozilla build; since older versions of Netscape reported themselves *only* as "Mozilla", there's no easy way to differentiate, but I would (and do) take anything reported as Mozilla/Netscape with a version of 5.0 or greater as a Gecko-based browser. Netscape 5 betas are pretty rare; I don't think I've ever actually seen one, and they'd be rarer still at this point. From n.beresford at anansi.co.uk Tue Jun 4 10:36:04 2002 From: n.beresford at anansi.co.uk (Norman Beresford) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:36:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Parsing URLs in ASP.net In-Reply-To: <000801c20bd7$dc72f230$0100a8c0@jason> Message-ID: Hi Jason You're going to be using regular expressions to deal with this. Bascially you want to force your users to input URL's in a set format. I've got the backend to a CMS which converts URLs into XML tags, the only cravet being that the user must use http(s)/ftp to begin with. Here's the code, (it's classic ASP as opposed to ASP.net, but you'll do it in a similar way): httpExpression = "(http|ftp|https):\/\/[\w]+(.[\w]+)([\w\-\.,@?^=%&:/~\+#]*[\w\-\@?^=%&/~\+#] )?" Set objRegExpr = New regexp objRegExpr.Pattern = httpExpression objRegExpr.Global = True objRegExpr.IgnoreCase = True Set colMatches = objRegExpr.Execute(stringValue) For Each Item in colMatches stringValue = replace(stringValue, Item.Value, "" & Item.Value & "") Next Some examples of it's output will be http://www.anansi.co.uk will become http://www.anansi.co.uk http://www.anansi.co.uk/index.html. will become http://www.anansi.co.uk/index.ht ml http://brett.normanberesford.com will become http://brett.normanberesford.com ftp://mog will become ftp://mog To change it to produce output you just alter the "stringValue = replace" line. The advantage of forcing the user to use http etc is that it will pick up on URLs that start with something other then www or ftp HTH Norman > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Jason Cartwright > Sent: 04 June 2002 15:55 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Parsing URLs in ASP.net > > > Does anyone know of any tutorials on parsing URLs using ASP.net (VB > script)? > > I'm looking to take a user's input and convert any urls they enter into > HTML linking that url. > > Eg - > http://www.foo.com or www.foo.com becomes... > http://www.foo.com > > > Thanks! > Jason > www.jasoncartwright.com > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com Tue Jun 4 10:38:00 2002 From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:38:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size In-Reply-To: <200206041526.g54FQECN031369@leo.evolt.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604095905.01ad4c30@mail.imaginuity.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604103320.04436610@mail.imaginuity.com> *smacks forehead* I have those installed (and IE Booster). If it was a snake it would've bit me. --Ben IE Booster has many nifty little tools for right-clicking in IE like resizing the window, opening a frame in a new window (or the current window), listing all the forms, images, links or stylesheets on a page and other useful tools. Best of all, it's completely free. On 10:26 AM 6/4/2002, aardvark said to me: >what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie that shows all the >images on a page... it totals the file sizes at the end... > >if you saved the source code and checked its size, and added it to >the image total, you'd have it... > >it works well enough for me that i haven't looked elsewhere... Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive http://www.imaginuity.com/ Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it. ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/ http://www.evolt.org/ From evolt at accessibleinter.net Tue Jun 4 10:38:11 2002 From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:38:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] Microsoft tunes in low-cost Net TV Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604083518.009feec0@data1701d.com> $9.95 for 5 hours a month, useful if you need to do WebTV/MSN TV testing. http://news.com.com/2100-1040-931669.html Bill Mason Accessible Internet evolt at accessibleinter.net http://www.accessibleinter.net/ From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com Tue Jun 4 10:50:01 2002 From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt) Date: Tue Jun 4 10:50:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Microsoft tunes in low-cost Net TV References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604083518.009feec0@data1701d.com> Message-ID: <3CFCE15D.FDC79DE3@lightbulbpress.com> That's good, because I cant imagine any other use for the $9.95 plan. Are there actually users out there who would pay that much for only 5 hours? .matt Bill Mason wrote: > $9.95 for 5 hours a month, useful if you need to do WebTV/MSN TV testing. > > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-931669.html > > Bill Mason > Accessible Internet > evolt at accessibleinter.net > http://www.accessibleinter.net/ > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From mrg at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 11:19:01 2002 From: mrg at members.evolt.org (matt g) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? Message-ID: hi, Anyone here have any experience with the PHP-based X-Cart shopping cart? http://www.x-cart.com I'm doing a little research for someone, and am not finding many/any independent reviews so far. Alternatively, can anyone recommend a solid ColdFusion based cart? Thanks, matt g. From rob.smith at thermon.com Tue Jun 4 11:25:07 2002 From: rob.smith at thermon.com (Rob Smith) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:25:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size Message-ID: <1AF1AE25FC71D411BDE100D0B774E5CA02070948@smtmb.thermon.com> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Three words... File > Save as... (when you have the page loaded save to you desktop and grab the properties. That will tell you how heavy your page is. not 100% accurate but at least its an idea.) *smacks forehead* I have those installed (and IE Booster). If it was a snake it would've bit me. --Ben From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 11:26:14 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:26:14 2002 Subject: [thelist] sticky frames script situation Message-ID: <20020604162531.80207.qmail@web12605.mail.yahoo.com> E'ers, I have an interface that has a section where there are two frames stacked on top of each other as rows: +---------------+ Frame 335px +---------------+ Frame * +---------------+ The frames are resizeable, and the user will be resizing them to make the view of the content fit their preference. Here is the problem, I don't want the user to size up the top frame above a certain point because a) it covers up the content and b) it causes an error anyway (with some other code). There is another script that also essentially "hides" one frame by changing the frameset: parent.document.body.rows = "25, *, 0"; (so the third row would be hid) So here's the rub: I used a script to say, if frame is resized to a certain point, just make it such a point so it doesn't go too high, like this: if (newControlPos <= 205) { newControlPos = 205; window.rowSet.rows = "25, 335, *"; } And that was working BUT -- That ruined my toggle above, because when I tried to hide the second frame, of course my script above just set it to 205 instead of 0! SO - the real question is - is there a way one script can know where the command came from? I feel like if I could tell the above script that "if the command to resize the frame came from the hideMyFrame() function, then allow it to reset the frame to 0". I want to say in ASP there is a way that a page can know which script referred it, maybe that is along the lines I am thinking of...or a parameter...or something! aaah! Any help or suggestions is appreciated - If I have not been clear let me know. Tom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 11:26:22 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:26:22 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something like 600px. It's not truly liquid). The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all graphics department. -Ken From Andrew.Hardacker at Compuware.com Tue Jun 4 11:30:04 2002 From: Andrew.Hardacker at Compuware.com (Hardacker, Andrew) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:30:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? [was what happened to browserwatch.com?] Message-ID: <715E193E3C34D411806300508B9B2BDE01D1CF9B@CWUS-BOS-PRI01> Netscape does provide some additional properties for the navigator object. Here's what I get on three of the browsers clogging my machine: property Netscape 6.2 Netscape 7 Mozilla RC1 ------------------------------------------------------------ navigator.vendor Netscape6 Netscape [blank] navigator.vendorSub 6.2.2 7.ob1 [blank] navigator.product Gecko Gecko Gecko navigator.productSub 20020314 20020512 20020417 Andy Hardacker The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. From nparrot at pair.com Tue Jun 4 11:35:01 2002 From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:35:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: Message-ID: <009f01c20be6$0babfe80$b700a8c0@videotron.ca> My main answer is : who are they to decide for users? I personally prefer to maximise my browser to get more info as opposed to scrolling down. I have no problems reading long lines of text, and yet I have been trained as a speed reader. I know all about reading in columns, but what can I say? Hitting the Max button requires one click, as opposed to scrolling which is a harder movement. So why would they impose a notion onto all users when it doesn't apply to all? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Kogler" To: "thelist" Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 12:22 PM Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid > I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say > "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something > like 600px. It's not truly liquid). > > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're > insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > > Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't > quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all > graphics department. > > -Ken > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 11:36:04 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:36:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604163513.27576.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> Ken, A person "says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." is one person's OPINION. If there are 3 people in the graphics dept. saying this, it is 3 peoples OPINIONS. What you want to do is set up a small usability test -- nothing crazy and elaborate mind you -- but get 5 people off the street to come in and test the design. I recommend "Don't Make Me Think: Common Sense Approach to Web Usability" by Steve Krug if you don't know how to do a test. He gives you pretty much everything you need to know in this great book on how to run a simple user test. You can read the book in less than a day. This way, you can derive hard data that probably (can't say for sure, don't see your page) will prove that their obtuse statement is unfounded. Certainly, I would think your users won't consider a liquid display "not readable" -- that's just an ignorant statement by somebody with a strong opinion. Good luck Tom --- Ken Kogler wrote: > I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say > "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something > like 600px. It's not truly liquid). > > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're > insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > > Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't > quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all > graphics department. > > -Ken > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Tue Jun 4 11:37:08 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Andrew Shiel) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:37:08 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604173231.0253ed50@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 11:22 04/06/2002 -0500, Ken Kogler wrote: >The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not >readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're >insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. Got to agree with them on that - there are good reasons for newpapers and encyclopedias having columnated text. It's far easier on the eye to read a number of short lines than one long one. It should be possible to manage a liquid design AND a limited text width? Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 11:38:13 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:38:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size In-Reply-To: <1AF1AE25FC71D411BDE100D0B774E5CA02070948@smtmb.thermon.com> Message-ID: <200206041637.g54GbrCN001600@leo.evolt.org> > From: Rob Smith > > Three words... > > File > Save as... (when you have the page loaded save to you desktop > and grab the properties. That will tell you how heavy your page is. > not 100% accurate but at least its an idea.) beware.... if doing this from IE/win, it will actually be saving an MSHTML version of the page -- not the true HTML of the page... while the byte size difference may be negligible, at extremely large file sizes, it can add up... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 11:45:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size In-Reply-To: <200206041526.g54FQECN031369@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: > what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie > that shows all theimages on a page... it totals > the file sizes at the end... Right, but what about us who don't have IE5.5? Any other solutions out there? I'd rather not have to save a file and all the graphics to my local machine to do this. From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 11:47:07 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:47:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200206041646.g54Gk2CN001922@leo.evolt.org> > From: Ken Kogler > > I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. > (I say "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with > is something like 600px. It's not truly liquid). most liquid designs have an absolute minimum width... many of mine are 580-600, a few are less if i can get them there (and it's nice to WebTV users)... i wouldn't beat yourself up over it... > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." > They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. [...] granted, once you get past (30-)70 characters per line, text is less easy to read... however, users don't always know this... i've seen users tell me they read better if the text is full-screen, but in testing reading speed and comprehension, they do much better within that smaller window that holds them to ~70 characters... but if i tried to *prevent* these users from reading the text full screen, they'd have my head... users don't always know when a task is taking them longer than it should, or when they are doing it less effectively... but when you give the user the ability to do it (right/wrong), they tend to appreciate it... > Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I > can't quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the > know-it-all graphics department. you can't disprove the graphics department... they're not wrong (but they're not right, either)... their arguments are rooted in good data, but their excuse of 'ugly' and 'what users want' is flawed.... also, the 750px thingie is a bit flawed, too, depending on your audience.... might be time to explore the 'max-width' CSS property (depending on audience, again)... given that, defer to the user (keep it liquid)... that's my take... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From nparrot at pair.com Tue Jun 4 11:48:07 2002 From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:48:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604173231.0253ed50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <00cb01c20be7$d4878f80$b700a8c0@videotron.ca> From: "Andrew Shiel" > Got to agree with them on that - there are good reasons for newpapers > and encyclopedias having columnated text. It's far easier on the eye to > read a number of short lines than one long one. It should be possible to > manage a liquid design AND a limited text width? Following up on my other statement. It's no wonder I prefer to get my news from the web then. While the columnated text will appeal to *most* people, it does not appeal to me at all. I'd rather read long lines. From simplecypher at bitshift.ws Tue Jun 4 11:48:19 2002 From: simplecypher at bitshift.ws (kevin D. white) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:48:19 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: Message-ID: <001901c20be7$fcef3040$3001330a@marchfirstslc.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The assumption implicit in your designer's argument is that their archetype user always surfs the with their Web browser maximized to fill the screen. This is a common example of self-referential design. Your designers may be attaching their preference for surfing with a maximized browser to your users. The designers may be right, they may not. Do all your users share that preference? Probably not. It may be the other sites your users visit use a fixed width design that forces a maximized window. Your users may resent being forced to un-maximize their browser while on your site. Or they may learn to love the flexibility and choice offered by a liquid design. Which way do the users of your site lean? Only they can tell you that one. If you want a truely difinitive answer, you will have to ask your users. *Maximized browser or Windowed?* - - Liquid design : choice resides with each user - - Fixed design : choice resides with the designer It's your site and your content but their computer and their Web browser. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Kogler" | I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say | "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something | like 600px. It's not truly liquid). | | The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not | readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're | insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. | | Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't | quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all | graphics department. | | -Ken | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (MingW32) - GPGOE 0.4.1 Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQIcBAEBAgAGBQI8/O/nAAoJEO4zpFgPJZelfmMP/2gnIkVmSqLVIo+RhHHX4GRN xRBAGA0qgEvFn0A9EHgsZA8DGg1j5NjMicGoJ6c3k7Ll17krJHXqhhUYR7LYVzH3 qJWNZMMEKpth/alFC5PlO3NEsXMN3q0pdEZrPyjhj4rufzYMyLHRVjF1aZHYt54d f+LOUt8kZE1R9jkF/2H+sDH3PGrVYYuuXr9l4FzTS/td+cHTotFDbPELKrPMJAz5 85VRJ8Z7Y3t9jUBShTNmTDdIh4zYgDIp2SEBmGKYLEDLdVd93mOVNK7c4psAEw1g sgaHUTbe0xodMWMPlDwOTMzlnin0nfjQoWgRY8d1ueWRUz8SMES9L1/Fia96jJnj m9SAq6SHDjoKSkiCcF9oeSh5fUy9ecvmB4V/s9BzeE63hEo8zFFO6RGRMs1gdTCC /QQJX/y5K4XFRDB4Kfhig6Hxvp8SfpvegAeCAMd6MUAY3rln7nMCLrdbmoTnRxZC DOlEMlOuOjgrzXrHPeR6mgxV+QZXqLr3c/tjj9ql6XAaRCL+7pvS4RNre8OiVga4 02C23GZ8p9t36081cVzVs4JtaaPPcCcIFgDDtENtwel9/TF4AKamAvRMzfhlmIw9 GJoYCELYTTFpAlh6Dti/kMZQY+qOg3gYPUBqZJArsUWsIeuxMraTm8h5FrfScQ7Q gy9d/Crb5nyvTcOWN/aA =WS/P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mark at markgroen.com Tue Jun 4 11:49:15 2002 From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:49:15 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CFC8C45.14991.DACE23@localhost> > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." > They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. I like to go a little smaller than that actually to 710px. Users *really* don't want to move their eyes back and forth as much as neccassary for a 100% width text at 800x600. For fluid designs, try 85%-80% for less eye strain and a nice margin. IMHO margins on blocks of text are needed(!) and much nicer looking as well as being a good old fashioned layout principle from print that works for the web too. From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 11:50:26 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:50:26 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604173231.0253ed50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > It should be possible to manage a liquid > design AND a limited text width? Oh, it is. It's just that you end up with a bunch of dead space off to the side of the design, and to a user that surfs at a high screen rez, that can be very frustrating. If I'm at 1280x1024, a site like that takes up just over half my browser width... that's now 2 pages of information to read instead of one. Twice the scrolling, etc... I'd rather have all the info at a glance. The site I'm working on is primarily articles, resources, etc, which are all a whole lot of text. That's why I'm pushing a liquid design. my $0.02. -Ken From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 11:53:12 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:53:12 2002 Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size In-Reply-To: References: <200206041526.g54FQECN031369@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200206041652.g54GqaCN002174@leo.evolt.org> > From: Ken Kogler > > > what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie > > that shows all theimages on a page... it totals > > the file sizes at the end... > > Right, but what about us who don't have IE5.5? Any other solutions out > there? I'd rather not have to save a file and all the graphics to my > local machine to do this. it works on IE5.x... sadly, only for windows, though... same with the IE Booster than ben linked (http://www.paessler.com/products/ieb/index.html) otherwise, can't help you... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 11:55:04 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:55:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <200206041646.g54Gk2CN001922@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: > most liquid designs have an absolute minimum width... many of > mine are 580-600, a few are less if i can get them there (and it's > nice to WebTV users)... i wouldn't beat yourself up over it... Wasn't planning on it... :-) > > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." > > They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > granted, once you get past (30-)70 characters per line, text is less > easy to read... Their exact words were "an alphabet and a half" which, by my count, is 36. That seems way low to me. > but if i tried to *prevent* these users from reading the text full > screen, they'd have my head... * snip * > but when you give the user the ability to do it (right/wrong), they > tend to appreciate it... * snip * > defer to the user (keep it liquid)... that's my take... Very well said. Power to the users, baby! -Ken Kogler -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From norman.bunn at craftedsolutions.com Tue Jun 4 11:56:13 2002 From: norman.bunn at craftedsolutions.com (Norman Bunn) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:56:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604124959.04dcbdc0@craftedsolutions.com> If the long lines at 100% width are a problem for some viewers, isn't it likely that they use a browser window set at something less than 100% of what their monitor will support? So the graphics department's point is moot. Personally, I prefer a liquid design that allows me to decide how much I want to view/scroll. It really bugs me having my browser wide-open and only a portion of the screen used. All that wasted real estate! I say give the viewer the option with a liquid site. Static sites don't. In fact, the 750px width hurts the viewer at 640x480 (about 5% of what I see on my sites). Norman At 12:22 PM 6/4/2002, Ken Kogler wrote: >I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say >"mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something >like 600px. It's not truly liquid). > >The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not >readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're >insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > >Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't >quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all >graphics department. > >-Ken From howcheng at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 4 11:58:00 2002 From: howcheng at ix.netcom.com (Howard Cheng) Date: Tue Jun 4 11:58:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Parsing URLs in ASP.net In-Reply-To: References: <000801c20bd7$dc72f230$0100a8c0@jason> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604093846.00ad72c8@popd.ix.netcom.com> In ASP.NET you'll be using (assuming you're using VB.NET) something like the following: (not tested!) Imports System Imports System.Text.RegularExpressions Public Class MyClass Private httpExpression As String = "(http|ftp|https):\/\/[\w]+(.[\w]+)([\w\-\.,@?^=%&:/~\+#]*[\w\-\@?^=%&/~\+#])?" Public Function MakeLink(sInput As String) As String Dim re As New Regex(httpExpression, Regex.IgnoreCase) Dim oMatch As Match Dim sOutput As String = "" If re.IsMatch(sInput) Then oMatch = re.Match(sInput) sOutput = "" & oMatch.Result & "" End If Return sOutput End Function End Class If you're really daring, you could also try using the UriBuilder class. (: At 04:39 PM 6/4/2002 +0100, Norman Beresford wrote: >httpExpression = >"(http|ftp|https):\/\/[\w]+(.[\w]+)([\w\-\.,@?^=%&:/~\+#]*[\w\-\@?^=%&/~\+#] >)?" > > Set objRegExpr = New regexp > objRegExpr.Pattern = httpExpression > objRegExpr.Global = True > objRegExpr.IgnoreCase = True > Set colMatches = objRegExpr.Execute(stringValue) > > For Each Item in colMatches > stringValue = replace(stringValue, Item.Value, " target=""" & >Item.Value & """>" & Item.Value & "") > Next :::::::::::::::::::::: Howard Cheng howcheng at ix.netcom.com AIM: bennyphoebe ICQ: 47319315 From Ward_Conant at URSCorp.com Tue Jun 4 12:03:05 2002 From: Ward_Conant at URSCorp.com (Ward_Conant at URSCorp.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:03:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: Actually, there is some justification for the claim that long lines of text are more difficult to read. Most study results that I've seen, however, refer to offline reading (i.e., hard-copy, high-res print on paper). Maybe someone else will be able to reference some salient research RE: reading from a screen ... IMO, this is really a debate about whether developers/ designers should allow/force users to manipulate their browser's environment or not (i.e., force them to resize their browser window). Some will argue that we should *never* require users to do this, others will argue that, since everyone is different, this is the only way to successfully accommodate everyone (let *each user* decide how long those lines of text should be for him/herself). Are your users the type to balk at being asked to resize their browser windows? Are they the type to not only *not* do this, but to also fail to recognize that they are missing something by not doing so? "Let the user decide" vs. "Force the user to adapt." Two takes on a single approach ... both applicable, perhaps, in various situations. So, as usual, the correct answer would appear to be, "It Depends." Ward Conant Solution Design and Production, IT Services URS - Oak Ridge, TN tel 865.220.8154 fax 865.483.9061 "Tom Dell'Aringa" Sent by: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 06/04/2002 12:35 PM Please respond to thelist To: thelist at lists.evolt.org cc: Subject: Re: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Ken, A person "says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." is one person's OPINION. ... This way, you can derive hard data that probably (can't say for sure, don't see your page) will prove that their obtuse statement is unfounded. Certainly, I would think your users won't consider a liquid display "not readable" -- that's just an ignorant statement by somebody with a strong opinion. Good luck Tom --- Ken Kogler wrote: > I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say > "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something > like 600px. It's not truly liquid). > > ... "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." > They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > > Arguments for or against this? From ramone at amazoniacelular.com.br Tue Jun 4 12:07:04 2002 From: ramone at amazoniacelular.com.br (Paulo Guedes) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:07:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c20be9$ae53fae0$0a8214ac@beles8332> >The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not >readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're >insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. Ok, most users don't like reading long lines. Probably you don't, neither do I. But some users like it, and we don't know how much are them. A liquid layout would please any kind of users. People that don't like long lines would surely resize to a smaller window. But people that don't care with it will maximize the window. Nobody will get hurt doing it. Anyway, if they are "the graphics department", they will probably have other arguments against it... /Paulo From rsylvan at attbi.com Tue Jun 4 12:08:01 2002 From: rsylvan at attbi.com (Rob Sylvan) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:08:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A good question. After a quick search on Google (using: text readability long lines) the consensus on the first 10 links was to keep lines of text to an average of 9 - 12 words per line or around 60 characters per line. What I found even more interesting was that quite a few of these pages used a liquid layout design that caused their text lines to run 25 words per (or so) line on my 1280x1024 monitor. Do as I say, or do as I do? It has certainly been *my* experience that shorter lines are easier to read because I will sometimes have trouble finding the next line of text after the long journey back from the right side of my monitor. But perhaps that's just me. Best of luck, Rob -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ken Kogler Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 12:22 PM To: thelist Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. (I say "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with is something like 600px. It's not truly liquid). The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I can't quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the know-it-all graphics department. -Ken -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From minid at weblogs.com.ar Tue Jun 4 12:23:07 2002 From: minid at weblogs.com.ar (mini-d) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:23:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Knowledge: CSS: Display: Run-in In-Reply-To: <20020604163513.27576.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c20bec$6d755a70$0b00a8c0@diego> I searched on google and i find some examples, but i never found the real use for display: run-in. Even i didn't found a descent explanation of what this property does. If someone have time to explain this i would be really happy =D. Btw: i will continue on my research anyways =D. -----Mensaje original----- De: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] En nombre de Tom Dell'Aringa Enviado el: martes, 04 de junio de 2002 18:35 Para: thelist at lists.evolt.org Asunto: Re: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Ken, A person "says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." is one person's OPINION. If there are 3 people in the graphics dept. saying this, it is 3 peoples OPINIONS. What you want to do is set up a small usability test -- nothing crazy and elaborate mind you -- but get 5 people off the street to come in and test the design. I recommend "Don't Make Me Think: Common Sense Approach to Web Usability" by Steve Krug if you don't know how to do a test. He gives you pretty much everything you need to know in this great book on how to run a simple user test. You can read the book in less than a day. This way, you can derive hard data that probably (can't say for sure, don't see your page) will prove that their obtuse statement is unfounded. Certainly, I would think your users won't consider a liquid display "not readable" -- that's just an ignorant statement by somebody with a strong opinion. Good luck Tom --- Ken Kogler wrote: > I've come up with a (mostly) liquid design for a site I'm working on. > (I say "mostly" because with the graphical elements, the minimum with > is something like 600px. It's not truly liquid). > > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not > readable" because "users don't want to read long lines of text." They're > insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. > > Arguments for or against this? I'm all for the liquid design, but I > can't quite formulate an argument powerful enough to disprove the > know-it-all graphics department. > > -Ken > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From mail at jasoncartwright.com Tue Jun 4 12:34:01 2002 From: mail at jasoncartwright.com (Jason Cartwright) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:34:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c20bea$2947a850$0100a8c0@jason> I'm not very good at reading long lines and hate trying to move from one line to another on a variable width design. I almost always design at fixed width (740px), but quite a few of my sites have skyscraper banners (120x600) down the side. This can reduce the content width to 550-600 once its all spaced out (about 65-75 chars in a smallish font). This, IMO, is the perfect width for maximum readability. I would disagree with - >I personally prefer to maximise my browser to get more info as opposed to scrolling down Maybe you don't have a wheel mouse? Don't most people? That about my ?0.02 done :) Jason > -----Original Message----- > Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid > The graphics department here says that a 100% width is "ugly" > and "not readable" because "users don't want to read long > lines of text." They're > insisting I keep to a 750px static width on every page. From pcnewsguy at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 12:34:11 2002 From: pcnewsguy at yahoo.com (Patty McBride) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:34:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] WScript.Shell was:(no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604172216.94361.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Ashok, Thanks for that script, I ran it in a .js file from a directory on the server and got: Version 5.6.6914 I also was able to run: WshShell.run ("calc") WScript.Echo("WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: " & WSHshell.CurrentDirectory) These will not work for a .asp file because of descrepencies with the Wscript object on the server as apposed to being run by a client from the server. As long as I am using these on my server I am fine but the object doesn't exist for IIS, client - server. This did work on NT but the distinction seems explicit now on WIN 2000. There must be a way to allow IUSR to run these but I don't know how to make this possible. It doesn't make sence to me that it would work on NT 4 and not WIN 2000. There must be something in my server configuration for the IUSR that I can change to let this run. Phil --- ashok at magicalkenya.com wrote: > >It printed out: > >WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: C:\WINNT\system32 > >So I got an object but what kind of object? > > This gives the current directory of the running > process... > What version of WSH are you using ? I hope you are > using 5.6 .... > > try running the script below to determine your > version you should be > running something like 5.6.xx > (I assume you are using Cscript.exe or Wscript.exe > to execute your scripts > directly on the server i.e. not remotely..) > > WScript.Echo("Version " & ScriptEngineMajorVersion & > "." & > ScriptEngineMinorVersion & "." & > ScriptEngineBuildVersion) > > with version 5.0 the CurrentDirectory property is > not available, my guess > is you are running an older version of Wsh, > upgrading would solve your > problem... > [or] > you've got some kind of ACL related problem with > executing exes on that > directory...(check your permissions..) > > > ciao > > ashok > > > ------ > ?$h?k h?R?h???? > http://www.unganisha.org > Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be > construed as a "if > you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat > ------ > > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From pf at cfdev.com Tue Jun 4 12:37:01 2002 From: pf at cfdev.com (Pete Freitag) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:37:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RSS Parsing in Coldfusion In-Reply-To: <20020603230748.A3565@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: We have a XML parser here: http://www.cfdev.com/xml/ (you could get it to run on CF4.0 with CFX_J and it will run easily on 4.5) And of course CFMX comes with a XML Parser built-in. _____________________________________________ Pete Freitag (pfreitag at cfdev.com) CTO, CFDEV.COM ColdFusion Developer Resources http://www.cfdev.com/ -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of charles wilson Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 1:08 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] RSS Parsing in Coldfusion I'm looking for a Coldfusion XML/RSS Parser. I looked all over Google, searched House of Fusion, and finally came, weeping, to the Macromedia DEV Exchange. I found CFX_RssParser: http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=AC51A958-8EF2-11D4 -AAA700508B94F380&method=Full and RSS_NEWS: http://devex.macromedia.com/developer/gallery/info.cfm?ID=57A7C8AF-5BCB-11D6 -840300508B94F380&method=Full These are small starting tags, and the RssParser needs CF 5.0 it seems. Can anyone reccomend any other xml/rss parsers for Coldfusion? -charles -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From lists at irubin.com Tue Jun 4 12:38:05 2002 From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:38:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? References: Message-ID: <000f01c20bef$963721c0$6501a8c0@irubinmain> > hi, > Anyone here have any experience with the PHP-based X-Cart shopping cart? > http://www.x-cart.com > > I'm doing a little research for someone, and am not finding many/any > independent reviews so far. > > Alternatively, can anyone recommend a solid ColdFusion based cart? > > Thanks, > matt g. > I bought a copy of X-Cart and have been pretty happy with it. It is quite extensive and provides many features (above and beyond most of the clients needs). The only issues I can think of that present a problem is the support. The developers are in Russia and communication is only via email. For its price ($95) - it is a good deal X-cart sites http://ecommerce.irubin.com http://www.tennenaturephotography.com/xcart/customer/ -Kevin lists at irubin.com From Andrew.Hardacker at Compuware.com Tue Jun 4 12:39:04 2002 From: Andrew.Hardacker at Compuware.com (Hardacker, Andrew) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:39:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] sticky frames script situation Message-ID: <715E193E3C34D411806300508B9B2BDE01D1CF9D@CWUS-BOS-PRI01> So here's the rub: I used a script to say, if frame is resized to a certain point, just make it such a point so it doesn't go too high, like this: if (newControlPos <= 205) { newControlPos = 205; window.rowSet.rows = "25, 335, *"; } Tom, if I understand the problem correctly, you're using the code above in an onresize function. If you check the current size of the bottom frame, you can bail out if it's "hidden". function checkSize() { var fs = document.getElementById("yourFrameset"); var fsRows = fs.rows.split(","); if (fsRows[2] == 0) { return; } if (fsRows[1] > 335) { fs.rows = "25,335,*"; } } HTH Andy Hardacker http://hardacker.com The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 12:43:00 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:43:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <000901c20bea$2947a850$0100a8c0@jason> Message-ID: > I'm not very good at reading long lines and hate trying > to move from one line to another on a variable width design. But wouldn't you rather just resize your window to your Optimal Reading Width (tm) instead of being forced to read the width the designers think best? From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 12:45:00 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:45:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604124959.04dcbdc0@craftedsolutions.com> References: Message-ID: <200206041744.g54HiSCN004267@leo.evolt.org> > From: Norman Bunn > > If the long lines at 100% width are a problem for some viewers, isn't > it likely that they use a browser window set at something less than > 100% of what their monitor will support? So the graphics department's > point is moot. [...] this is a good point... based on research i did for my users (the article is now 23 months old) in http://evolt.org/article/list/20/2297/ (Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part II), i found that the mean viewport width for users at 800x600 was actually 719px... the median was 779px, and the mode was 780px... so, the 750px assertion from your designers would alienate all my 640x480 users, as well as some chunk of my 800x600 users, or between 6% and 26% of my users (based on two-year old stats for my site)... dunno if that helps any, since those are my numbers, but it is a good point that not all 8x6 users surf full-screen... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From evolt at stoutstreet.com Tue Jun 4 12:48:04 2002 From: evolt at stoutstreet.com (patrick) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:48:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? References: <000f01c20bef$963721c0$6501a8c0@irubinmain> Message-ID: <01f501c20bf0$031f3a70$0300000a@pooky> have you had a look at osCommerce? (http://www.oscommerce.com) ----- Original Message ----- > > hi, > > Anyone here have any experience with the PHP-based X-Cart shopping cart? > > http://www.x-cart.com > > > > I'm doing a little research for someone, and am not finding many/any > > independent reviews so far. > > > > Alternatively, can anyone recommend a solid ColdFusion based cart? > > > > Thanks, > > matt g. From scotts at rci-nv.com Tue Jun 4 12:54:01 2002 From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz) Date: Tue Jun 4 12:54:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Knowledge: CSS: Display: Run-in Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mini-d [mailto:minid at weblogs.com.ar] > > I searched on google and i find some examples, but i never found the > real use for display: run-in. Even i didn't found a descent > explanation > of what this property does. > > If someone have time to explain this i would be really happy =D. >From my research, display: run-in is a strange bird that is only really supported by Opera. Basically, it's a conditional setting. If the :run-in box is followed by a :block box, then the :run-in box is made :inline and placed inside the :block box. Otherwise, the run-in box stands on its own as a :block. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#run-in http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/css2tests/display.html#runin The W3 gives this example:

A run-in heading.

And a paragraph of text that follows it.

Displays as: A run-in heading. And a paragraph of text that follows it. I can't think of why you would actually want to use this instead of just specifying block or inline in your style sheet. It doesn't matter anyway, since both IE and Mozilla ignore and seem to treat it as block. From lists at irubin.com Tue Jun 4 13:01:01 2002 From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:01:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? References: <000f01c20bef$963721c0$6501a8c0@irubinmain> <01f501c20bf0$031f3a70$0300000a@pooky> Message-ID: <004901c20bf2$cf5d3ae0$6501a8c0@irubinmain> > have you had a look at osCommerce? (http://www.oscommerce.com) I personally prefer working with the template based architecture that X-Cart provides. Much easier to customize and make any modifications. --Kevin From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 13:07:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] sticky frames script situation In-Reply-To: <715E193E3C34D411806300508B9B2BDE01D1CF9D@CWUS-BOS-PRI01> Message-ID: <20020604180609.38098.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> OOooo, Andy thats a great solution. So far I re-worked my code to make the value of the "bad" resize a minimum number instead, and it hasn't broke yet -- yet. But this is a good idea. Thanks! tom --- "Hardacker, Andrew" wrote: > > So here's the rub: I used a script to say, if frame is resized to a certain > point, just make it > such a point so it doesn't go too high, like this: > > if (newControlPos <= 205) > { > newControlPos = 205; > window.rowSet.rows = "25, 335, *"; > } > > > Tom, if I understand the problem correctly, you're using the code above in > an onresize function. If you check the current size of the bottom frame, you > can bail out if it's "hidden". > > function checkSize() { > var fs = document.getElementById("yourFrameset"); > var fsRows = fs.rows.split(","); > if (fsRows[2] == 0) { > return; > } > if (fsRows[1] > 335) { > fs.rows = "25,335,*"; > } > } > > HTH > > Andy Hardacker > http://hardacker.com > > > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It > contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named > addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose > it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately > and then destroy it. > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jun 4 13:10:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:10:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <200206041744.g54HiSCN004267@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: > dunno if that helps any, since those are my numbers, but it is a > good point that not all 8x6 users surf full-screen... But if they're obviously missing content off the right-hand side of their screen, wouldn't a vast majority of them just expand the window? They might not be happy about it, but they'll do it if they feel like they're missing something. Right? From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jun 4 13:14:02 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:14:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: >Their exact words were "an alphabet and a half" which, by my count, is 36. >That seems way low to me. Don't know what alphabet *you're* using, but with English, that's 39. ;{>} But let's not get too wedded to that, because what they're talking about is not number of letters but the amount of pixels/points/whatever that equates to about 1.5 times the length of the alphabet when printed. Go pick up a newspaper or a book and check it out. That's not *just* an opinion, BTW. It's got a lot of scientifically gathered data behind it and a lot of book design experience. But that in itself is the rub. The Web is *not* paper; some new rules may apply, and not all of them are discovered, yet. (Some old ones may carry over, as well, and which ones these may be are also not discovered yet. Uncertainty is the price we pay for standing on the edge of a New Frontier.) I've handled this in many different ways. The method I was most comfortable with using was the "max-width:" attribute from CSS2 to set an outside limit on the growth of the article, and let it shrink liquidly. I chose a little under 60em as the maximum, allowing it to grow well beyond my comfort limits. By using a wider column than the center of the bell curve, I managed to include most of my readers comfort zones. I used some sidebar material on either edge to help pad out the view, so it didn't look too badly. There's nothing magic about the 60; it's just a number which was substantially larger than the tested "optimal" number; go ahead and try a larger one if you like. I don't like fixed-width layouts because I don't browse in full-screen mode. My actual browser window width is about 650 or so pixels wide (never actually measured it, just resized it until I felt comfortable with it) so a 750p-pixel wide layout would annoy me greatly, if there were something in both the extreme right and left areas worth reading. Luckily, most sites use one of those two edges for advertising, so I don't miss anything by not expanding the window. Personally, when it's so easy to build layouts that can expand and contract over a few hundred pixels, I don't understand anyone wanting to build one with a fixed layout, but that's just me, YMMV. I like designs which are nearly perfect at 800 pixels or so, but can squeeze down to under 600 and expand out to over 1000 without significant degradation. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jun 4 13:15:11 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:15:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: >But if they're obviously missing content off the right-hand side of their >screen, wouldn't a vast majority of them just expand the window? They might >not be happy about it, but they'll do it if they feel like they're missing >something. > >Right? Majority? Dunno. Me? Depnds on my mood. I'd give you 50-50 odds between resizing my browser or going on to the next website in the search list. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 13:20:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:20:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question In-Reply-To: <715E193E3C34D411806300508B9B2BDE01D1CF9D@CWUS-BOS-PRI01> Message-ID: <20020604181945.94843.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com> Andy's solution made me want to ask this question which still confuses me for some reason. I understand that when using return in a function, you can return a value. I can do return x; and return x to the caller of the function. But how does return function otherwise? Andy used: function checkSize() { var fs = document.getElementById("yourFrameset"); var fsRows = fs.rows.split(","); if (fsRows[2] == 0) { return; } if (fsRows[1] > 335) { fs.rows = "25,335,*"; } } I assume the return; here exits you out of the script - is this correct? I've never quite understood the concept - return by itself also assumes "return true"..is this correct? I've looked it up on the web dozens of times yet still am not straight on it. Tom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From pms at stoutstreet.com Tue Jun 4 13:20:25 2002 From: pms at stoutstreet.com (pms) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:20:25 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? References: <000f01c20bef$963721c0$6501a8c0@irubinmain> Message-ID: <01e701c20bef$ef8204c0$0300000a@pooky> have you had a look at osCommerce? (http://www.oscommerce.com) ----- Original Message ----- > > hi, > > Anyone here have any experience with the PHP-based X-Cart shopping cart? > > http://www.x-cart.com > > > > I'm doing a little research for someone, and am not finding many/any > > independent reviews so far. > > > > Alternatively, can anyone recommend a solid ColdFusion based cart? > > > > Thanks, > > matt g. From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jun 4 13:25:00 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:25:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE03300C@ati-ex-01.ati.local> > > dunno if that helps any, since those are my numbers, but it is a > > good point that not all 8x6 users surf full-screen... > > But if they're obviously missing content off the right-hand > side of their > screen, wouldn't a vast majority of them just expand the > window? They might > not be happy about it, but they'll do it if they feel like > they're missing > something. > > Right? your assumption makes sense to me, but to the people that work here in my office i don't think they would agree. well, i guess it's not a matter of disagreeing, but rather, they wouldn't even think of maximizing the browser. they would just scroll to the right, ignoring the maximize button. even though we use 17" monitors most of the users like their resolution set at 800x600 complaining that 1024x768 is too small. and i think that's stupid... but hey. and according to thecounter.com 51% of web users (or wherever they get their numbers from) use 800x600 and 35% use 1024x768, the next resolution is only 3%. http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/May/res.php point being... even if you do a liquid design, more than half of your users won't even know. and the 35% who use 1024x768 won't see much difference either. the other people that have larger resolutions probably want it that way and know about the maximize button, and they probably prefer to use it. i say do it. chris. > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 13:31:03 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:31:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: References: <200206041744.g54HiSCN004267@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200206041830.g54IUaCN006067@leo.evolt.org> > From: Ken Kogler > > > dunno if that helps any, since those are my numbers, but it is a > > good point that not all 8x6 users surf full-screen... > > But if they're obviously missing content off the right-hand side of > their screen, wouldn't a vast majority of them just expand the window? > They might not be happy about it, but they'll do it if they feel like > they're missing something. > > Right? dunno... i've been known to scroll right and leave it there, hiding nav, instead of resizing... i've also been known to assume it's ad content on the right until i actually start reading... i've seen people do the left-right dance before they'll resize, too... so, dunno... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 13:31:15 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:31:15 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <000901c20bea$2947a850$0100a8c0@jason> References: Message-ID: <200206041830.g54IUpCN006079@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Jason Cartwright" [...] > I would disagree with - > > >I personally prefer to maximise my browser to get more info as > >opposed > to scrolling down > > Maybe you don't have a wheel mouse? Don't most people? [...] most people on Windows machines bought within the last year, yes... but then, how many of the % understand them? i've watched my parents try to get the hang of it and, well... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From rogerly at bareviking.com Tue Jun 4 13:32:13 2002 From: rogerly at bareviking.com (Roger Ly) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:32:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] sticky frames script situation Message-ID: <20020604113113.17455.h006.c007.wm@mail.bareviking.com.criticalpath.net> > if (newControlPos <= 205) > { > newControlPos = 205; > window.rowSet.rows = "25, 335, *"; > } If I remember correctly, you can only set the rows property in IE4 and above. I don't remmeber if it eihter just didn't exist in NN4 or if it just wasn't writable. In which case, you may not be able to prevent users from resizing too much in Netscape. Roger From David at softv.net Tue Jun 4 13:41:01 2002 From: David at softv.net (David at softv.net) Date: Tue Jun 4 13:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question Message-ID: <353A2A1683F6D511B04C0002A551BBB80FAE71@SOFTVMAIL> You can use "return" to exit a function, much like "Exit Function/Sub" in VB. Dave http://java.dbmdata.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 14:28:08 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 4 14:28:08 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question In-Reply-To: <20020604181945.94843.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: tom, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > I understand that when using return in a function, you > can return a value. I can do > > return x; > > and return x to the caller of the function. > > [snip] > > I assume the return; here exits you out of the script - > is this correct? I've never quite understood the concept > - return by itself also assumes "return true"..is this > correct? I've looked it up on the web dozens of times > yet still am not straight on it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< a return statement always does two things. 1. returns a value to the caller 2. immediately halts further execution if there isn't an expression assigned to the return statement then it returns undefined. here's an example showing the event handler execution being halted causing the alert() immediately following the return statement to never be fired: click here here's an example of the same thing within a function: function myFunction() { return false; alert('foo'); } and finally, here's an example of a function that uses a return statement to halt execution of a function that's called from an event handler. this function called is wrapped in an alert() so you can see the value the function is returning. function myFunction() { return; } click here when you click on the link you should get an alert() dialog with the word "undefined" in it. i hope this helps explain it better. good luck, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From pmeeks at email.msn.com Tue Jun 4 14:45:01 2002 From: pmeeks at email.msn.com (Pat Meeks) Date: Tue Jun 4 14:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE03300C@ati-ex-01.ati.local> Message-ID: <001801c20c00$45d649c0$5e4983d0@shadow> > > > dunno if that helps any, since those are my numbers, but it is a > > > good point that not all 8x6 users surf full-screen... > > > > But if they're obviously missing content off the right-hand > > side of their > > screen, wouldn't a vast majority of them just expand the > > window? They might > > not be happy about it, but they'll do it if they feel like > > they're missing > > something. > > point being... even if you do a liquid design, more than half of your > users won't even know. and the 35% who use 1024x768 won't see much > difference either. the other people that have larger resolutions > probably want it that way and know about the maximize button, and they > probably prefer to use it. > > i say do it. Here's my limited experience... I walk into my clients office, and *everyone* has their monitors set to 8x6. Anything higher and they claimed they couldn't read anything (and all the employees are under 40 years of age). So, now I understood their complaint about their web site. Their site is mostly data tables, and I placed all the links to the part number spec sheets in the far right columns - they didn't know the links existed. Even though the tables were liquid (and I tested and designed for 8x6), the tables had enough columns that unless they maximized their screens, the far right columns didn't show. No only could they not see the links to the spec sheets, but neither could many of their customers. I had to move all the links to the left column. That was two years ago, and they have since upgraded their systems and monitors (all 19") and they are still running at 8x6 (unmaximized) and they still cannot see the right-hand columns without scrolling (which they don't do and I assume that their customers still don't scroll either). To me, it raises issues about just how well people read and decipher symbols, and it looks like there is quite a spread in ability. Pat From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 14:47:02 2002 From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid) Date: Tue Jun 4 14:47:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Include JavaScript variables into ASP script In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020603093934.02895b18@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <000501c20c00$85086b50$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb> As Javascript is a client-side language, it cannot communicate with ASP or any other server-side framework, so the short answer to your question is no, it is not possible to send Javascript variables to an ASP script. This is very true. However, if you REALLY need to communicate between JavaScript and ASP, you have a couple of options : 1. Cookies (which can either be set or read by both technologies) 2. Passing values to ASP. You can use javascript to send GET variables to an ASP script, which can read them and use them. Bottom line is, look for another solution. Hth, Burhan From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 15:01:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:01:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <200206041830.g54IUpCN006079@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <20020604200030.908.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> All these equally valid points are the reason why my first suggestion was to do a small user test. This way, you have the actual content that his site is going to have, and you can watch real people handle the situation. It will at least give you a sample idea of how people might react to the site. Plus, you can have them start out with the browser maxed, minimized, different resolutions and so on. Make some adjustments and do it again. You'll be surprised how successful you can be with small samplings of people and simple tests. That is the crux of Steve Krug's whole book. Tom --- aardvark wrote: > > From: "Jason Cartwright" > [...] > > I would disagree with - > > > > >I personally prefer to maximise my browser to get more info as > > >opposed > > to scrolling down > > > > Maybe you don't have a wheel mouse? Don't most people? > [...] > > most people on Windows machines bought within the last year, > yes... but then, how many of the % understand them? > > i've watched my parents try to get the hang of it and, well... > > > -- > Read the evolt.org case study > Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg > ISBN: 1904151035 > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From r937 at interlog.com Tue Jun 4 15:02:08 2002 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:02:08 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: <01c20c02$8f4c37c0$3caa1dd1@rudy> > ... according to thecounter.com > 51% of web users use 800x600 and > 35% use 1024x768, the next resolution is only 3%. the problem here is that resolution does not equate to window size so those stats are useless and the following one is made up -- 93% of all cars have four or more seats (substitute whatever number you think is right) but take a look on your average freeway and tell me how many cars have all four seats occupied designers who force you to open your window to avoid a horizontal scroll are just as self-centered as people who drive to work with three seats empty and you can tell 'em i said that ask them if they'd like to be forced to take three people along with them stupid analogy, i know actually, in most cases i bet it's not the designers deciding to create ice designs that are too wide for many users -- it's management (there's an oxymoron if ever there was one) gosh i'm snarky this week http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/dom/dtype/dtype-grid.html rudy http://rudy.ca/ From ajohnson at purplemountain.net Tue Jun 4 15:27:07 2002 From: ajohnson at purplemountain.net (Amy Johnson) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:27:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting In-Reply-To: <20020604165315.E86A3C0AF@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: I've got one client on ReadyHosting. It's very very difficult to get tech support to respond. And I'm currently having problems getting billing to respond. One time I spent forever on hold and got a tech support person who was clueless. Other than that, it's an ASP site with a database that seems to work ok and it's cheap! I sure wouldn't put a complex site there though. I like having tech support I can easily get a hold of when I have a problem. Amy >Please, what is your experience with ReadyHosting? >They have really good packages, too good actually. >What is the catch? >Thanks. >Sasha From info at kostaldesign.de Tue Jun 4 15:31:00 2002 From: info at kostaldesign.de (Sebastian Kostal) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:31:00 2002 Subject: AW: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <200206041830.g54IUaCN006067@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: I followed the thread and had a thought: Isn?t the answer basically already there? Pretty much all applications with GUIs running on computers rely on liquid design for a reason. I wouldn?t go to a 100% width though, for the same reasons I would not do this with printed pages either. Aesthetics AND functionality are very important to a site and you should work out a solution with the graphics department that suits both needs if you have the resources (easier said than done of course). Sebastian From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 15:33:02 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:33:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604203301.3999.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> .jeff, Thanks - that has been the explanation I have been wanting for who knows how long. Why don't the books describe it like that! Tom --- ".jeff" wrote: > tom, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > > > I understand that when using return in a function, you > > can return a value. I can do > > > > return x; > > > > and return x to the caller of the function. > > > > [snip] > > > > I assume the return; here exits you out of the script - > > is this correct? I've never quite understood the concept > > - return by itself also assumes "return true"..is this > > correct? I've looked it up on the web dozens of times > > yet still am not straight on it. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > a return statement always does two things. > > 1. returns a value to the caller > 2. immediately halts further execution > > if there isn't an expression assigned to the return statement then it > returns undefined. here's an example showing the event handler execution > being halted causing the alert() immediately following the return statement > to never be fired: > > onclick="return false; alert('foo')" > >click here > > here's an example of the same thing within a function: > > function myFunction() > { > return false; > alert('foo'); > } > > and finally, here's an example of a function that uses a return statement to > halt execution of a function that's called from an event handler. this > function called is wrapped in an alert() so you can see the value the > function is returning. > > function myFunction() > { > return; > } > > onclick="alert(myFunction()); return false" > >click here > > when you click on the link you should get an alert() dialog with the word > "undefined" in it. > > i hope this helps explain it better. > > good luck, > > .jeff > > http://evolt.org/ > jeff at members.evolt.org > http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 15:36:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604203552.91888.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com> For what its worth, I'm currently using halfpricehosting.com for a small site. Its very cheap, and the tech support is ok - you have to fill out a form online, and they correspond by email form. Not the greatest but definitely cheap. I also would suggest orcsweb.com for average priced hosting with *top notch* support. An email sent to them gets a response in minutes. Tom --- Amy Johnson wrote: > I've got one client on ReadyHosting. It's very very difficult to get tech support to respond. > And I'm currently having problems > getting billing to respond. One time I spent forever on hold and got a tech support person who > was clueless. Other than that, it's > an ASP site with a database that seems to work ok and it's cheap! I sure wouldn't put a complex > site there though. I like having > tech support I can easily get a hold of when I have a problem. > > Amy > > >Please, what is your experience with ReadyHosting? > >They have really good packages, too good actually. > >What is the catch? > > >Thanks. > >Sasha > > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 15:44:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:44:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020604204319.4846.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> So the return statement in this function is useless then, wouldn't it be? It's not even sending a value so it would be undefined.. function mouseUp(e) { var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft; var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop; isActive = false; return; } --- ".jeff" wrote: > tom, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > > > I understand that when using return in a function, you > > can return a value. I can do > > > > return x; > > > > and return x to the caller of the function. > > > > [snip] > > > > I assume the return; here exits you out of the script - > > is this correct? I've never quite understood the concept > > - return by itself also assumes "return true"..is this > > correct? I've looked it up on the web dozens of times > > yet still am not straight on it. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > a return statement always does two things. > > 1. returns a value to the caller > 2. immediately halts further execution > > if there isn't an expression assigned to the return statement then it > returns undefined. here's an example showing the event handler execution > being halted causing the alert() immediately following the return statement > to never be fired: > > onclick="return false; alert('foo')" > >click here > > here's an example of the same thing within a function: > > function myFunction() > { > return false; > alert('foo'); > } > > and finally, here's an example of a function that uses a return statement to > halt execution of a function that's called from an event handler. this > function called is wrapped in an alert() so you can see the value the > function is returning. > > function myFunction() > { > return; > } > > onclick="alert(myFunction()); return false" > >click here > > when you click on the link you should get an alert() dialog with the word > "undefined" in it. > > i hope this helps explain it better. > > good luck, > > .jeff > > http://evolt.org/ > jeff at members.evolt.org > http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From cvos at netpaths.net Tue Jun 4 15:49:01 2002 From: cvos at netpaths.net (Cayley Vos) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: <20020604165315.E86A3C0AF@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: It seems mozilla is not reading my stylesheet. This must be happening to others - what do the moz specs require for my external stylesheet to be noticed? Also, there is weird behavior in the header that creates a false link to specs.php. weird http://workskiff.com on 6/4/02 9:53 AM, thelist-request at lists.evolt.org at thelist-request at lists.evolt.org wrote: > At 04:29 04/06/02 -0700, Cayley Vos wrote: >> Just launched this heavy duty job today. If the website lasts half as long >> as the boats do, I will be a proud parent indeed >> >> http://workskiff.com > > The site looks great in IE6, but has a few problems in the latest version > of Mozilla. Here's a screenshot: > > http://www.bath.ac.uk/~cs1spw/images/screenshots/workskiff-in-mozilla.png Cayley Vos, Principal office: 360-714-8395 cell: 360-303-0150 http://netpaths.net _______________________________________________________ web hosting | search engine marketing | web development From webshot at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 15:56:11 2002 From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:56:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows In-Reply-To: <000001c20bec$6d755a70$0b00a8c0@diego> Message-ID: <000701c20c0a$3defb0c0$6501a8c0@neonreactor> I have a really weird error happening Code that worked fine (I think) 2 weeks ago doesn't work anymore. It's PHP that stores form values as session variables. It works on the server (Apache/Linux) , but not on my workstation (Apache / Windows). It seems like a session variable is dissappearing...it's there on one page, but then it just dissappears. Nothing in the code overwrites or unregisters it...it just vanishes! Anyone seen anything like this ever? Thanks, John From eric.d.means at boeing.com Tue Jun 4 15:57:17 2002 From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D) Date: Tue Jun 4 15:57:17 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS question Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EA4@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 3:43 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thelist] "return" in JS question > > So the return statement in this function is useless then, wouldn't it be? It's not even sending a > value so it would be undefined.. > > function mouseUp(e) { > var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft; > var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop; > isActive = false; > return; > } Basically. The closing brace implies a return statement, so the return; is redundant. It's often put in for one of a couple of reasons: 1. Clarity. It can be easier to spot a return; than it can be to spot which of a series of closing braces belongs to the function. 2. Exiting the function from nested braces: function whatever () { if (something) { ... if (something_else) { } else { // something is wrong, exit the function return; } } } 3. Having a final return statement can make sure that you *know* what the function will return if it manages to get all the way to the final brace; in this case it almost always has an argument, however (return true, return 0, etc). From webshot at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 16:04:01 2002 From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:04:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ReadyHosting In-Reply-To: <20020604203552.91888.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c20c0b$595743e0$6501a8c0@neonreactor> > For what its worth, I'm currently using halfpricehosting.com > for a small site. Its very cheap, and the tech support is ok They should make me a 'team rider' for the way I evangelize... I went through a bunch of crappy hosts on my way to where I am. I like Linux / Apache / MySQL / PHP with no frills. I prefer .htaccess and .virtualmail and a cron tab to 'control panels' or whatever lame administration tools a hosting company makes available to me. Hurricane Electric just totally rocks! You can get ahold of tech support easily, but you won't need to...everything works the way it is supposed to. $10/month includes everything you need to build a db driven site + 25mb and 2.5 gb traffic...more than any of my sites need. John Corry From techwatcher at accesswriters.com Tue Jun 4 16:05:06 2002 From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:05:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: Hi, all-- If you want the users to read text, it's true the lines should be kept relatively short (60-70 characters normally). I try to design in such a way that the right and left margins are large naturally, then let the center float. Right now, I do this with a table kludge: On the left, at intervals (making them exactly even with major, or widely separated, headings), I have the very simple image of a "welcome mat" appear. This is described, on its first appearance on every page, as an icon allowing the reader to jump back to the Home Page. On the right, I have a matching (different) icon, also very simple, which stands for returning to the hypertext Table of Contents at the top of that page. (I try to make the intervals between icons equal to roughly no more than 2 screens of scrolled text.) I have a large site (well, about 60 pages, which is large for distinct text pages, not for database-type content!), and it's organized using an extended visual metaphor of a village, with buildings (bookshop with shelves, Town Hall with counter & doors, etc.). So my icon on the right is always the building to which this page belongs, which helps the reader remain oriented for lower-level pages. The site is AccessWriters.com (capital letters just to make that readable). It's not the current fad (glossy fake magazine with tabs!), but I don't care to be fashionable, myself. The homemade look probably attracts more writers than it repels, anyway. Once CSS is more nearly ubiquitous, I think I can accomplish this same design with CSS, by setting margins to be about 100-120 pixels on each side, except for headers (which are centered, anyway, in my existing, very basic CSS). Since my images are inline, I can just float them either side of the headers (with 0 margins). At least, I'm hoping to be able to do this -- with just Backup&Replace'Em to revise the HTML and a new CSS. That's why I'm slowly reading through the whole folder of W3's CSS specs.... I do think, if you're going to use fluid text, that the column should at least be centered on the page (not, of course, centering each line!). Can't one use fixed thingies at the right and left that would at least make sense on the page, perhaps even be useful to the reader, without becoming a distraction? To carry your reader along with you, it's also very important to keep a strong "narrative line" going... Do this with lots of linking words (conjunctions, making clear relationship of sentences, such as "Because," or "Therefore," or "Then" -- and use all the other readability tricks, too. I am famous (in certain, admittedly small circles!) for my ability to turn boring PR-type stuff into compelling reading, and I've just told you my main "secret." (-8 Use S-V-O structure, bullet any multiple O's (objects), keep sentences simple instead of complex most of the time, etc. Watch paragraph lengths, too -- not more than 8 lines (average screen, average text size, obviously) -- but more than 1 sentence! Use lots and lots of subheadings (add more if necessary), and make sure each becomes part of the hypertext ToC, too. (Of course, I wrote a program that automatically finds all headers, puts the "name" anchor around them, copies the header to a ToC file with matching href anchors around them, and turns the whole thing into an unordered list. So I only have to massage and merge my ToC file into the main HTML file to have internal hypertext links at the top of any page. Makes it easier for me.) Cheers -- Carol techwatcher at accesswriters.com From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 16:07:07 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:07:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS ... continued In-Reply-To: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EA4@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <20020604210642.94450.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com> Eric, Ok, again that makes sense and I see why you would do it. Now hopefully this is my last question on this, but this script really got me thinking about all this. Here is one more snippet, this is part of a larger onMouseDown script: if (isActive == true) { //are we on the knob? if ((x >= dragObject.xpos) && (x <= dragObject.xpos + dragObject.w)) { //where 'x' is on the knob dragObject.dragOffsetX = x - dragObject.xpos; } return false; } else { return true; } Now, I can see on the return false - make sure you are pulling out of the function like you said before the else and the last few brackets. But here, the author of this script (not me) seems to be returning either a true or false value depending on whether a drag object was selected. The caller of this script is document.onmousedown. Why would this event need a true or false value? It seems on the surface it would not, and commenting out these lines seems to have no effect on the drag working at all. I would just take it out but I feel I might be missing something..and I do have an occasional glitch in the drag where you get the black "stop" icon, it seems like the mousedown gets stuck now and then. Not only do I want to understand return better, but i want to see if it is affecting this script. Tom --- "Means, Eric D" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 3:43 PM > > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > > Subject: RE: [thelist] "return" in JS question > > > > So the return statement in this function is useless then, wouldn't it be? > It's not even sending a > > value so it would be undefined.. > > > > function mouseUp(e) { > > var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft; > > var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop; > > isActive = false; > > return; > > } > > Basically. The closing brace implies a return statement, so the return; is > redundant. It's often put in for one of a couple of reasons: > 1. Clarity. It can be easier to spot a return; than it can be to spot which > of a series of closing braces belongs to the function. > 2. Exiting the function from nested braces: > function whatever () { > if (something) { > ... > if (something_else) { > > } else { > // something is wrong, exit the function > return; > } > } > } > 3. Having a final return statement can make sure that you *know* what the > function will return if it manages to get all the way to the final brace; in > this case it almost always has an argument, however (return true, return 0, > etc). > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From eric.d.means at boeing.com Tue Jun 4 16:12:04 2002 From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:12:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] "return" in JS ... continued Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EA5@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 4:07 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thelist] "return" in JS ... continued > > Eric, > > Ok, again that makes sense and I see why you would do it. Now hopefully this is my last question > on this, but this script really got me thinking about all this. Here is one more snippet, this is > part of a larger onMouseDown script: > > > > Now, I can see on the return false - make sure you are pulling out of the function like you said > before the else and the last few brackets. But here, the author of this script (not me) seems to > be returning either a true or false value depending on whether a drag object was selected. The > caller of this script is document.onmousedown. Why would this event need a true or false value? It > seems on the surface it would not, and commenting out these lines seems to have no effect on the > drag working at all. "If onMouseDown returns false, the default action (entering drag mode, entering selection mode, or arming a link) is canceled." >From here: http://developer.netscape.com/docs/manuals/communicator/jsref/evnt14.htm From fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 4 16:26:01 2002 From: fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk (fstorr) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:26:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Acrobat accessibility checker Message-ID: <000201c20c0e$32050360$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hi all Has anyone here used the Adobe Acrobat Accessibility checker? It's driving me around the bend - it's hardly usable itself - can anyone recommend any good resources on using it? Thanks Francis -- From timfm at hawaii.rr.com Tue Jun 4 16:42:00 2002 From: timfm at hawaii.rr.com (Timothy Martens) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:42:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Changing a:hover on the fly/event? Message-ID: <000001c20c11$797b5b60$7da30842@hal> I know it's easy enough to change a style attribute (e.g., color, background, etc.) of an Element, ID or .class but what about pseudo:classes? E.g., can I change a:hover 'color' on a mouseover? t. :::::::::::::::::::::::: From techwatcher at accesswriters.com Tue Jun 4 16:44:02 2002 From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher) Date: Tue Jun 4 16:44:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: Yes, one thing that helps me a great deal with my Web design/usability issues is that one other thing I do every now and then is help complete novices learn to use a computer! Last year, I had a small (3-hr/week) gig in a retirement community, teaching older folks to read e-mail and "surf the Web." Very enlightening. See if you can make a little time in your week, or month, to volunteer with local novices. Here's a funny one: Eventually I produced an "evaluation form" listing all the things I thought they might want to do, so if they thought there was one they didn't understand, they could ask me to review that part. One woman, quite an intelligent lady, who had had a very responsible job with computer experience, asked me to show them how to "surf the Web." I think they were quite disappointed when I explained what that really meant, and that they had already been doing it for months! 0-8 Another thing I noticed when I reviewed stats: Most users of the site I designed for our local Friends meeting (charlottefriendsmeeting.org) apparently don't know that one is expected to click the little drop- down arrow (in a "select" form box) to see options! It's not that people are stupid, btw. What's happening is that as one attempts to work at different cognitive "levels of abstraction" (my term for it), one gets less and less able to function. A person who is entirely capable of dealing with an unfamiliar interface when asked to focus on that task will suddenly become unable to function when the interface simply is present when s/he is trying to focus on the content of the thing with the interface. The more levels of things one is trying to work out (as in, "resize the browser window -- OS level" + "scroll -- browser control level" + learn about what the text is explaining), the worse it gets. Perfect example: While I'm focussed on which of my files were updated and put on the server, versus which were updated but didn't get to the server yet, versus which haven't been updated -- well, it can take me several seconds to realize I can't print a copy of the Explorer window on my machine and carry it over to compare dates with the Explorer window on another machine! I'm sure all of us in the still-infant IT industry have several of these happen to us every day! P.S. I am a professional writer. As with all of you, everything I write is instantly copyrighted. I hereby grant all of you the right to read this freely, as often as you wish, but NO right to republish it yourself for a new audience. From chris at photokyo.com Tue Jun 4 17:06:07 2002 From: chris at photokyo.com (Chris Anderson) Date: Tue Jun 4 17:06:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Looks like I have a virus Message-ID: <006201c20c12$f2167d60$c9b52ada@donkeyboy> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hi everyone, Looks like my computer got that KLEZ virus that is going around the net, and I think that it must have been sent to a bunch of you, or will be. Its passed through email, and is a big pain to get rid of. So anyway, if you get any email from me with stupid subjects like "honey" or "my new girlfriend" or "cellpadding" bla bla bla, and there are attachments, just delete them without even opening them. Chris Chris Anderson Photokyo - Digitally capturing the best Tokyo has to offer! http://www.photokyo.com -- From webdad at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jun 4 17:19:01 2002 From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert) Date: Tue Jun 4 17:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Site check workskiff.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c20c11$e85977b0$f25d2241@tampabay.rr.com> Cayley Vos wrote: ...Also, there is weird behavior in the header that creates a ...false link to ...specs.php. weird It seems like your splash-cut_23.gif image is wrapped in the href="/specs.php anchor. Here's your code. You should probably verify that. Bob From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jun 4 17:49:07 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jun 4 17:49:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604081933.009f8ad0@accessibleinter.net> Message-ID: <008101c20c19$aa0894c0$760ae343@oemcomputer> Thanks everyone for your input. Think I reached 3rd base and am headed for home. Sharon > >At 03:57 AM 06/04/2002, Sharon F. Malone wrote: > >So could I "safely" count Netscape 5 results in with the results for > >Netscape 6? > > I would say so. Any report showing Netscape 5 has more likely > misidentified Netscape 6 rather than actually had a visitor using a > pre-Mozilla "Netscape 5 beta". > > Just be wary if the client wants to differentiate between Netscape 6 and 7 > for whatever reason. > > Bill Mason --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From evolt at scottbrady.net Tue Jun 4 17:55:07 2002 From: evolt at scottbrady.net (Scott Brady) Date: Tue Jun 4 17:55:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Conditionals with a SQL Server 2000 Stored Procedure Message-ID: <200206041554.AA424214806@scottbrady.net> I'm working on converting queries I've written (this is all in ColdFusion 5.0) into Stored Procedures on a SQL Server 2000 db. In the current select statment, I have the following code in CF: WHERE pc.category_id = c.category_id AND pc.category_id = I'm trying to replicate that in the SP with a parameter and have tried both an IF and a CASE: WHERE pc.category_id = c.category_id CASE @category_id > 0 THEN AND p.category_id = @category_id END <<< or >>> WHERE pc.category_id = c.category_id IF @category_id > 0 AND p.catalog_id = @category_id In checking the syntax, SQL Server chokes on them with "Incorrect syntax" messages. (@category_id is defined at the top of the SP). Considering this is my first ever SP (nothing like starting simple), I'm guessing one of you DB gurus will have a pretty elementary answer for me. Thanks! Scott From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:09:00 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:09:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Bobby (was: Accessibility Question) In-Reply-To: <1024.139.130.216.191.1022916863.squirrel@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, June 1, 2002, at 08:34 am, Lachlan Cannon wrote: > Martin Burns said: >> See the Bobby A link on the Right Hand Side? >> It\'s longdesc is >> http://www.easyweb.co.uk/descriptions/bobby_approvedA.htm >> (nb the only reason for this page not being AAA is the repeated [d] >> link) >> >> Or take a look at the office pic, which is longdesc\'d to >> http://www.easyweb.co.uk/descriptions/office.htm >> (that longdesc has an easter egg in it btw) > > Talking about Bobby, am I the only one it's wonked up for lately? The downloadable Java version, or the site? The site is much improved lately. > I tried > to get it to check my site, and the first thing it did was follow the > first > link on my page and check that. then when I retried it had a whole heap > of > spurious things it found wrong with the site, that I knew weren't there. I've seen it be a bit flaky around nesting of h#, but other than that, not bad. > And then finally it removed that but wouldn't say my site passed the > check > because I needed to check to make sure my page made sense when > stylesheets > didn't work (which it does...). It does have a number of user checks which an automated tool probably could never accurately parse, but it will pass pages with a note saying that it looks OK, but you need to perform the user checks to be sure that it's accessible. Validation by an automated tool is only ever going to be part of the story, as to be effectively accessible requires understanding what the intent of the page is, and whether the page actually fulfils that for users with disabilities. An automated tool will never (forseeably) be able to assess whether your longdesc is an effective description of the image... Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/UhrcegecKg1zMsRAqvjAJ0fG2ma5EpPFwgSmaUJGmECj2GX3gCgmY4G 4SuPtwvOE0FIgqjnncn1Qow= =y/1e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:09:13 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:09:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] Free screen readers In-Reply-To: <000001c20985$31f0a4f0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Message-ID: <0F02C842-7810-11D6-95D8-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, June 1, 2002, at 04:58 pm, fstorr wrote: > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Hi all > > Does anyone know of any free screen readers out there? > > All this accessibility talk on the list got me mentioning the issue to > my company's HR department, so it looks as though I might be heavily > involved in overhauling our company intranet. They can buy their own > screen reader (!) but I'm looking for a free one for my own personal > testing. How long do you need it for? IBM HomePageReader has a 30 day demo. It's in the browser archive Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/UiPcegecKg1zMsRAqAdAJ9QH5j7xXuQqiDN+B2y31my4mK5iACdFnzA 6e7aRPqWV85W+N9D5V8xCDg= =CZ8R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:15:00 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:15:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen is 99% bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 12:47 am, James S. Huggins (Evolt) wrote: > ============================= > It's not quite hyprocrisy. > > The EPA goes to the most polluted areas, for instance. > > As much as I'm not a Nielsen fan, I think there could be some good that > comes out of this. > ============================= > > > True. But this strikes me more like the company that pollutes the most, > hiring the top EPA critic as an advisor for the company. Which some companies do. It's actually sensible for Macromedia - they've recognised the two big criticisms[1] that people have over Flash (ie the level of usability and accessibility in the majority of Flash presentations) and they're addressing them both. Their sucess remains to be seen. cheers Martin [1] apart from "Stop trying to make Flash take over the web. It will not and should not replace HTML" _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/UmycegecKg1zMsRAgGHAKDcEBUAKeV1aTTQvXiYwSv1IS5DtwCeMsj8 eo/NSN4ZvKxzD+inL+Yyv4Y= =sBIT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:24:01 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:24:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <20020604163513.27576.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <07FDD068-7812-11D6-95D8-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 05:35 pm, Tom Dell'Aringa wrote: > A person "says that a 100% width is "ugly" and "not readable" because > "users don't want to read > long lines of text." is one person's OPINION. If there are 3 people in > the graphics dept. saying > this, it is 3 peoples OPINIONS. What you want to do is set up a small > usability test -- nothing > crazy and elaborate mind you -- but get 5 people off the street to come > in and test the design. > > I recommend "Don't Make Me Think: Common Sense Approach to Web > Usability" by Steve Krug if you > don't know how to do a test. He gives you pretty much everything you > need to know in this great > book on how to run a simple user test. You can read the book in less > than a day. That's a good approach, Tom. Another thing to think about is even if you accept a fixed maximum number of characters per line (note the conditional tense...), how many pixels does that translate to? Depends on your font size. Which is subject to another level of user preference. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/UvecegecKg1zMsRAuP5AKCflvOIOiAWSZvFZ2Ew95pKN92WXwCfaYXv tVlC2GsWYOcj6GbSC6GmxIk= =li2l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From danfascia at totalise.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:31:01 2002 From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:31:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds to me like your designers are just being lazy asses, they probably perceive it to be more effort to design elements that you can slot into a liquid layout... i.e. ones that stretch nicely. Why dont you reach a compromise by making your layout table liquid but only consuming say 70% of the screenwidth. That way, the column stretch would not be too bad and scanlines would remain easy to the eye yet it would alleviate the bother of having a tiny page on high res screens. Let me throw another spanner into this works! Has anybody found a good *reliable* way of scaling the font depending on the screen resolution... that is other than setting up and dynamically loading different stylesheets?? Interesting post though... Dan From RWaller at fresno.ca.gov Tue Jun 4 18:34:00 2002 From: RWaller at fresno.ca.gov (Waller, Rio) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:34:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] This software is super kewl! Message-ID: <11DE2DA8F971D311BDAB009027B1067414BFE23E@pobox4.intra.co.fresno.ca.us> Hello Everyone, If you have a neen to generate sitemaps or like pages...take a look at this software: http://www.xtreeme.com/sitexpert/index.html It just saved to a couple days of work...and NO I don't benefit in anyway from the sale of the software. I have just learned so much from this list wanted to give a little back! Rio :) WebPerson Partial Owner of http://www.Zwerx.com LLC Day Job http://www.FresnoHumanServices.org From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Jun 4 18:36:01 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 12:29 am, Daniel Fascia wrote: > Let me throw another spanner into this works! > > Has anybody found a good *reliable* way of scaling the font depending > on the screen resolution... that is other than setting up and > dynamically loading different > stylesheets?? And if they have, and have implemented it, what data do they have that users appreciate that you've screwed their font size preference? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/U6xcegecKg1zMsRAgxoAKChss9ncqw+dy5oXg0sdwjn+fd4ggCg0OR8 F8Jb8UdUOurfyzvutB3kwc4= =9XHF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jun 4 18:38:05 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:38:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE03300D@ati-ex-01.ati.local> > > ... according to thecounter.com > > 51% of web users use 800x600 and > > 35% use 1024x768, the next resolution is only 3%. > > the problem here is that resolution does not equate to window size > > so those stats are useless i'm sorry, but you're wrong. the reason those stats are useful is because a person running at 8x6 CANNOT make their browser any larger than if they had clicked the maximize button. i don't know if this is true of course in other OS's but i'm using windows. which according to the same website, aproximately 90% of users are also using some form of windows. if the design department wants 750 width, i don't see what the problem is. make the minimum 750 and allow for the design to expand as far as it wants. my point with the stats is that if 51% of users are at 8x6 and the design is set for a minimum of 750 then 51% of the users will be getting what the "design department" wants. only will the people at higher resolutions *maybe* not get what they want. of course i'm still not assuming that everyone will have their browser window maximized since that's not entirely important. if the design people are asking for 750 that shouldn't be any problem at all. in other words, if someone was using 8x6 and they had their browser max'ed it wouldn't cause any problem with the "readibility" of the site. and likewise the people who use higher resolutions do it because they want to and know what they like. so i'd say it's safe to assume if they (large res. people) want to maximize their browser or not is up to them. it seems that the design dep. is assuming a maximized (or very close to) browser anyway. maybe i'm confused but it seems like an easy answer. 700-750 min (whatever the design calls for) and then the ability to stretch as wide as the users res will support. am i missing something? chris. From Darren.Neimke at sdm.com.au Tue Jun 4 18:39:05 2002 From: Darren.Neimke at sdm.com.au (Darren Neimke) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:39:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] Conditionals with a SQL Server 2000 Stored Procedure Message-ID: <4EC843C6F2C02B4DAE8E7C5145B5491304419B@ralph.SDM2k> Scott, In SQL Server programming you can create ad-hoc sql inside your sprocs and execute them. Try running the following statements from within Query Analyzer: ---------------------------------- USE Northwind DECLARE @SQLStrng VARCHAR( 2000 ) DECLARE @whereItem VARCHAR( 40 ) DECLARE @whereValue INT SELECT @SQLStrng = 'SELECT * FROM Categories' IF LEN( @whereItem ) > 0 AND LEN( @whereValue ) > 0 BEGIN SELECT @SQLStrng = @SQLStrng + ' WHERE ' + @whereItem + ' = ' + CAST( @whereValue AS VARCHAR ) END -- run the generic select statement PRINT @SQLStrng EXEC ( @SQLStrng ) -- now populate the local variables SET @whereItem = 'CategoryID' SET @whereValue = 3 -- rebuild the sql statement SELECT @SQLStrng = 'SELECT * FROM Categories' IF LEN( @whereItem ) > 0 AND LEN( @whereValue ) > 0 BEGIN SELECT @SQLStrng = @SQLStrng + ' WHERE ' + @whereItem + ' = ' + CAST( @whereValue AS VARCHAR ) END -- re-run it PRINT @SQLStrng EXEC ( @SQLStrng ) ---------------------------------- It means that you can write sprocs like this: ---------------------------------- CREATE PROCEDURE TestSproc @whereItem VARCHAR( 40 ) = null, @whereValue INT = null AS DECLARE @SQLStrng VARCHAR( 2000 ) SELECT @SQLStrng = 'SELECT * FROM Categories' IF @whereItem IS NOT NULL AND @whereValue IS NOT NULL BEGIN SELECT @SQLStrng = @SQLStrng + ' WHERE ' + @whereItem + ' = ' + CAST( @whereValue AS VARCHAR ) END EXEC ( @SQLStrng ) GO ---------------------------------- And call them like so: exec TestSproc 'CategoryID', 3 exec TestSproc From sub at shanx.com Tue Jun 4 18:47:00 2002 From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:47:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] X-Cart? or CF solution? In-Reply-To: <01f501c20bf0$031f3a70$0300000a@pooky> Message-ID: <003101c20c22$16b865c0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK> | I'm doing a little research for someone, and am not | finding many/any independent reviews so far. Before you invest your dollars, perhaps you could look for some pretty mature open source projects. I guess some one suggested OSCommerce. I would also encourage you to take a look at FishCart (http://www.fishcart.org/) and PhpShop (http://www.phpshop.org/). FishCart is being used by several people I know, after modifications of course. HTH, Shanx From evolt at funkwit.com Tue Jun 4 18:50:00 2002 From: evolt at funkwit.com (Paul Cowan) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:50:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Conditionals with a SQL Server 2000 Stored Procedure References: <200206041554.AA424214806@scottbrady.net> Message-ID: <08cc01c20c21$6ec6c690$3e02a8c0@cusack> Hi Scott, I'm no cold fusion guy, but I know SQL Server syntax. SO, how about: SELECT pc.blah, pc.blahblahblah FROM dbo.whatever WHERE (pc.category_id = c.category_id) AND (@category_ID = 0 OR p.category_id = @category_id) You cannot conditionally add WHERE clauses as such; but you CAN make it so that if @category_id is 0, then the second half always evaluates as 'true'. (note parentheses). No need for IFs or cases... For what it's worth, IFs are more for conditional execution of code than for in clauses. A CASE is closer, but still overkill in this situation. Hope this helps! Paul From hassan at webtuitive.com Tue Jun 4 18:55:05 2002 From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder) Date: Tue Jun 4 18:55:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: <07FDD068-7812-11D6-95D8-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CFD531A.FF9734E2@webtuitive.com> Martin Burns wrote: > Another thing to think about is even if you accept a fixed maximum > number of characters per line (note the conditional tense...), how many > pixels does that translate to? Depends on your font size. Which is > subject to another level of user preference. Why 'translate' to pixels? And why is this whole debate either/or? I have pages where I've sized paragraph max-widths to 40 ems -- based on no research, just seemed empirically like a good size :-) -- with a single-click way to change the width to 90% of the containing page (not 100% only because I think a little margin improves readability). FWIW! -- H* Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 -- From slewis at macrovista.net Tue Jun 4 19:28:01 2002 From: slewis at macrovista.net (Steve Lewis) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:28:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid References: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE03300D@ati-ex-01.ati.local> Message-ID: <3CFD5C18.2070003@macrovista.net> I have not been following this thread closely, partly because of some sloppy quoting (if the message preview in Mozilla contains nothing but a quote attribution line and several blank quoted lines, I hit delete) and partly because I am too lazy to follow thelist that closely. :) I suspect that my reply below may be taking Chris' comments out of context. Mia Culpa if that is the case. Chris W. Parker wrote: >>>51% of web users use 800x600 and >>the problem here is that resolution does not equate to window size >>so those stats are useless > i'm sorry, but you're wrong. the reason those stats are useful is > because a person running at 8x6 CANNOT make their browser any larger > than if they had clicked the maximize button. i don't know if this is That argument is true. 8x6 is an absolute maxumum bound for 51% if this audience. > if the design department wants 750 width, i don't see what the problem > is. make the minimum 750 and allow for the design to expand as far as it > wants. my point with the stats is that if 51% of users are at 8x6 and > the design is set for a minimum of 750 then 51% of the users will be > getting what the "design department" wants. only will the people at Not necessarily. See above. You have no knowledge about a minimum bound so be carefull not to assume that you have 800 as a minimum bound as well. You seem to be assuming someone will act to maximize their browser window and that is not a fair assumption, ergo those stats do not support this argument. The fact that you know a maximum bound does not provide you with the information you need to support using a 750 width design without having it cause horizontal scroll bars for a sizable audience. The best fluid *designs* will scale well in four directions (bigger vs smaller. vertical vs horizontal) and should not imply a minimum or maximum *content* size. Notice separation of design and content. This is an ideal which is widely espoused; and these stipulations on design are logical deductions from those ideals. > higher resolutions *maybe* not get what they want. of course i'm still > not assuming that everyone will have their browser window maximized > since that's not entirely important. if the design people are asking for > 750 that shouldn't be any problem at all. in other words, if someone was > using 8x6 and they had their browser max'ed it wouldn't cause any > problem with the "readibility" of the site. and likewise the people who Sorry. I am lost. You are not assuming that everyone will have their browser window maximized but if someone was using 8x6 screen resolution, a design width of 750 should not be a problem? Come again? > it seems that the design dep. is assuming a maximized (or very close to) > browser anyway. maybe i'm confused but it seems like an easy answer. Than the design dep should invest in some additional training IMHO. Maximized windows are not a justified assumption. Evidence I have seen suggests the contrary. --Steve From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 19:30:05 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:30:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain Message-ID: <3CFD226F.9036.8F7E76A9@localhost> can't find a whois that gives me the registration info for a .ws domain... i'm trying to find who the contact is... anyone got a suggestion? -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From jcanfield at magisnetworks.com Tue Jun 4 19:47:01 2002 From: jcanfield at magisnetworks.com (jcanfield at magisnetworks.com) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:47:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain Message-ID: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC90@grog> > can't find a whois that gives me the registration info for a > .ws domain... i'm trying to find who the contact is... > > anyone got a suggestion? This work? http://whois.samoanic.ws/whois.dhtml joel From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 4 19:48:10 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:48:10 2002 Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain In-Reply-To: <3CFD226F.9036.8F7E76A9@localhost> Message-ID: aardvark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: aardvark > > can't find a whois that gives me the registration info > for a .ws domain... i'm trying to find who the contact > is... > > anyone got a suggestion? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure: http://www.uwhois.com/cgi/domains.cgi?User=NoAds enjoy, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 19:54:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:54:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain In-Reply-To: References: <3CFD226F.9036.8F7E76A9@localhost> Message-ID: <3CFD2815.28672.8F948858@localhost> > From: ".jeff" [...] > > can't find a whois that gives me the registration info > > for a .ws domain... i'm trying to find who the contact > > is... [...] > http://www.uwhois.com/cgi/domains.cgi?User=NoAds it helps... thanks... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 4 19:55:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 4 19:55:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain In-Reply-To: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC90@grog> Message-ID: <3CFD285B.29669.8F9598F7@localhost> > From: jcanfield at magisnetworks.com [...] > > can't find a whois that gives me the registration info for a > > .ws domain... i'm trying to find who the contact is... [...] > http://whois.samoanic.ws/whois.dhtml that helps, too... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From r937 at interlog.com Tue Jun 4 20:08:01 2002 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Jun 4 20:08:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid Message-ID: <01c20c2c$a1fb71e0$3caa1dd1@rudy> >am i missing something? not sure, but mebbe... let's back up and run through your logic again > my point with the stats is that if 51% of users are at 8x6 > and the design is set for a minimum of 750 then 51% of > the users will be getting what the "design department" wants. their monitors may be rated at 800x600, but that doesn't mean their windows are maximized > of course i'm still not assuming that everyone will have their > browser window maximized since that's not entirely important. well, yes it is whether the window is maximized is entirely the point i was making > if the design people are asking for 750 that shouldn't be any > problem at all i just don't see your logic there it *does* cause a problem if the window is, say, only 600 wide > in other words, if someone was using 8x6 and they had their > browser max'ed it wouldn't cause any problem with the "readibility" > of the site. well, yes, but that is begging the question if they don't have their browser maximized, they are s.o.l. > it seems like an easy answer. 700-750 min (whatever the design > calls for) and then the ability to stretch as wide as the users res will support. uggh how about 400 minimum, 800 max? that way you fit into webtv and preserve readability in long lines i don't suppose the photoshop phreaks would go for that, eh ooooops [ dons flame retardant suit ] rudy From nparrot at pair.com Tue Jun 4 20:10:01 2002 From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P) Date: Tue Jun 4 20:10:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] [PHP] Include statements on IIS 5 Message-ID: <020c01c20c2d$1822f140$b700a8c0@videotron.ca> I'm installing Post-Nuke 0.714 for the umpteenth time, but for the first time on IIS 5. The installation is croaking on include statements with errors similar to this one Warning: Failed opening 'docs/COPYING.txt' for inclusion (include_path='c:\php4\pear') in D:\web\bikerscout.net\html\install\gui.php on line 485 Regardless of what I try and kludge, I always hit a wall at include statements. Any reason why they behave differently on IIS? The site in question has been Frontpage enabled, btw. Against my better judgement, but it's there. Nicole From danfascia at totalise.co.uk Tue Jun 4 20:48:00 2002 From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia) Date: Tue Jun 4 20:48:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? Message-ID: A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content management systems in place seem to now use flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that screws up search engines. This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are they using to create this? Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or what??? really confused and the answer is probably really simple ;-) Cheers guys Dan From judah at wiredotter.com Tue Jun 4 21:21:04 2002 From: judah at wiredotter.com (Judah McAuley) Date: Tue Jun 4 21:21:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? References: Message-ID: <3CFD753B.1010000@wiredotter.com> Daniel Fascia wrote: > A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content management systems in place seem to now use > flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that screws up search engines. > > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are they using to create this? > > Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or what??? really confused and the answer is > probably really simple ;-) Two main options. 1) You can churn out static HTML pages when a backend system updates. This is good for sites that don't update often. 2) URL masking by redirection. Create a valid, static looking url (http://mysite.com/news/current/ournewupdate.html) and invoke a custom 404 page that parses the URL and delivers the correct content. In this case, the custom 404 might see that the app in question is the news application, the category is "current" and the particular article is called ournewupdate. That's a fake example, but that's what good CMS's will do these days to make URL's that provide accurate, SE friendly context for the actual content. You'll find a few articles about search engine friendly URL's on Evolt. Take a look at: http://www.evolt.org/article/Search_Engine_Friendly_URLs_with_PHP_and_Apache/17/15049/index.html You may notice that that link itself is a faked, search engine friendly URL. If you have a particular language you are interested in, folks on this list should be able to help you with an implentation strategy. HTH, Judah From danfascia at totalise.co.uk Tue Jun 4 21:27:04 2002 From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia) Date: Tue Jun 4 21:27:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Antialiasing fonts for the web Message-ID: <07XRPK84QOTQXSRM4WWV43939884SYT.3cfd769b@DANFASCIA-21> I've noticed that the Photoshop algorithm for antialiasing fonts is pretty crappy, giving somewhat blurry edges to even sans-serif fonts which should look clean. In contrast the Windows font smoothing algorithm is very nice and makes clean edges. At the moment Im outputting my title lines in Word and then screen grabbing them for this reason (just for this current project dont worry...) but clearly there must be a better way. Can anyone recommend some software that antialiases fonts well? From sub at shanx.com Tue Jun 4 21:38:05 2002 From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Tue Jun 4 21:38:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] Antialiasing fonts for the web References: <07XRPK84QOTQXSRM4WWV43939884SYT.3cfd769b@DANFASCIA-21> Message-ID: <008601c20c39$ed490510$e008a8c0@DMF59> > Can anyone recommend some software > that antialiases fonts well? You could actually consider Macromedia Fireworks. It gives you 3 antialiasing options for text (Smart, Crisp, Smooth if I remember correctly) and I am sure one of them would suit you. I speak of version Fireworks 4, not MX, although I doubt the antialiasing would have changed any. Cheers Shanx From mark at markgroen.com Tue Jun 4 21:39:05 2002 From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen) Date: Tue Jun 4 21:39:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] Antialiasing fonts for the web In-Reply-To: <07XRPK84QOTQXSRM4WWV43939884SYT.3cfd769b@DANFASCIA-21> Message-ID: <3CFD16A2.7076.2F758E2@localhost> > > Can anyone recommend some software that antialiases fonts well? I like to use Fireworks, you can control the level of anti-aliasing in four settings - smooth, strong, crisp, or none. From sam.richardson at outwide.co.nz Tue Jun 4 21:49:00 2002 From: sam.richardson at outwide.co.nz (Sam Richardson) Date: Tue Jun 4 21:49:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? References: Message-ID: <054701c20c34$a62cc5e0$1202060a@studio.toolbox.co.nz> Others could explain it better then I but I'll give it a go. The site page IDs are usually stored in the URL, take for example, /news/animals/19283 Your story key is still stored in the 19283 number but is simplifed by having the two folders above it describing it. (news/animals) The web server is setup with a default page to load if no page is found in the folder, that page can read the URL and process the content in the database. Does this help? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Fascia" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:46 PM Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? > A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content management systems in place seem to now use > flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that screws up search engines. > > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are they using to create this? > > Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or what??? really confused and the answer is > probably really simple ;-) > > Cheers guys > > Dan > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From chris at activeinterface.com Tue Jun 4 22:39:01 2002 From: chris at activeinterface.com (Chris Harrington) Date: Tue Jun 4 22:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604232657.0219e968@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Dan, Churning out HTML is what I am doing with an XML/XSLT based CMS I just developed. We had considered having sites managed by the application hit the page generator directly (the performance of modern xml/xslt tools can handle it), but the search engine issue was the main reason for having the CMS publish static HTML. Since I modeled sites as referenced and included templates, the program must figure out which pages were affected by an edit and republish these pages. The other advantage of publishing static html is that the pages can be published to many servers in a cluster/farm. And of course the performance can't be beat, which gets to be an issue if you have many sites on one set of servers. Chris At 02:46 AM 6/5/2002 +0100, you wrote: >A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content >management systems in place seem to now use >flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that >screws up search engines. > >This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are they >using to create this? > >Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or >what??? really confused and the answer is >probably really simple ;-) > >Cheers guys > >Dan > > >-- >For unsubscribe and other options, including >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! Chris Harrington Active Interface, Inc. www.intrasight.com Ph: 412-901-1184 Fax: 412-799-0927 From lists at irubin.com Tue Jun 4 22:49:01 2002 From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin) Date: Tue Jun 4 22:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? References: Message-ID: <001d01c20c45$0a42ec70$6501a8c0@irubinmain> > A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content management systems in place seem to now use > flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that screws up search engines. > > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are they using to create this? > > Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or what??? really confused and the answer is > probably really simple ;-) > > Cheers guys > > Dan > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! Simple. mod_rewrite does the job. -- Kevin lists at irubin.com From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jun 4 23:08:01 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jun 4 23:08:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe a lot of places are parsing HTML files as ASP/PHP/what-have-you files. They just choose to keep the .html or .htm extensions. Not sure what the driving force is behind that, but it _is_ late right now and I'm awfully tired. :) Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have > content management systems in place seem to now use > flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap > that screws up search engines. > > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system > are they using to create this? > > Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are > made or what??? really confused and the answer is > probably really simple ;-) > > Cheers guys > > Dan From zaunere at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 23:29:01 2002 From: zaunere at yahoo.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Tue Jun 4 23:29:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020604232657.0219e968@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020605042845.14832.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com> > seem to now use flat files instead of the usual > ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that screws up search engines. What makes you think they really are flat files? More than likely, it's a virtual directory/file scheme, where a central script gets path info, and spits back a page. Also, mod_rewrite is very common for this sort of thing. They probably are not really flat files though. We're working on building an article about this: http://dev.nyphp.org/wiki/index.php/Making%20URLs%20Search%20Engine%20Friendly Not a very friendly URL itself, but things are in the works. Anyone [non NYPHP members] is welcome to help us develop as well. Hans Z. New York PHP http://nyphp.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From headlines at lists.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 00:11:00 2002 From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines) Date: Wed Jun 5 00:11:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 04-JUN-02 Message-ID: <200206050510.g555A1xA029457@leo.evolt.org> evolt.org headlines for 04-JUN-02 Hi evolters! We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone else: Code: Embed HTML in XML & Retrieve it with XSL (Author: Nautilus) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/17/27855/index.html Ever had problems putting HTML within XML? Here's a solution that will let you leave your HTML in peace -- providing backwards compatible HTML in your XML applications. Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site. Happy reading! evolt.org From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 00:11:09 2002 From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid) Date: Wed Jun 5 00:11:09 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c20c4f$5da0e390$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb> I believe a lot of places are parsing HTML files as ASP/PHP/what-have-you files. They just choose to keep the .html or .htm extensions. Not sure what the driving force is behind that, but it _is_ late right now and I'm awfully tired. :) If you add AddType application/x-httpd-php .php .html .htm To your Apache conf files, then Apache will parse html files as PHP. You can do similar tricks in IIS. Hth, Burhan Khalid From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 00:15:01 2002 From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid) Date: Wed Jun 5 00:15:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] [PHP] Include statements on IIS 5 In-Reply-To: <020c01c20c2d$1822f140$b700a8c0@videotron.ca> Message-ID: <000d01c20c4f$e0f88bd0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb> Its been a while since I messed with *nuke, but lets give this a shot. >The installation is croaking on include statements with errors similar to >this one >Warning: Failed opening 'docs/COPYING.txt' for inclusion >(include_path='c:\php4\pear') in D:\web\bikerscout.net\html\install\gui.php >on line 485 Well, for one, its looking in the wrong place c:\php4\pear. Make sure you are using virtual paths (I'm sure you've checked this already). Also, appending your root to the include_path will give a shortcut fix to this problem. Other than that, I'd check the include statements to make sure that the ../../ (or whatever variable is set for the site root), is reporting its location correctly. Let me know if you need more help. Burhan Khalid From gozz at gozz.com Wed Jun 5 00:37:01 2002 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Wed Jun 5 00:37:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Antialiasing fonts for the web In-Reply-To: <07XRPK84QOTQXSRM4WWV43939884SYT.3cfd769b@DANFASCIA-21> References: <07XRPK84QOTQXSRM4WWV43939884SYT.3cfd769b@DANFASCIA-21> Message-ID: >I've noticed that the Photoshop algorithm for antialiasing fonts is >pretty crappy [...] Im outputting my title lines in Word and then >screen grabbing them for this reason Some one posted some a similar sage response, and I'm borrowing from that wisdom ... If a screen capture of Word is the look you're going for, use Word and screenshots ... ... but like, if you can't get PS to come up with the exact pixels you really want from a single menu command, there's a billion ways to get it closer. -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ Through June 15 9am - 3pm M-F: (952) 838 7698 __________________________________________ From gozz at gozz.com Wed Jun 5 00:40:01 2002 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Wed Jun 5 00:40:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >A great deal of I don't think anybody's mentioned evolt.org "does this" ... prolly an article somewhere ... -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ Through June 15 9am - 3pm M-F: (952) 838 7698 __________________________________________ From Evolt at ZName.com Wed Jun 5 01:03:02 2002 From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt)) Date: Wed Jun 5 01:03:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am looking for software, preferably PC or MAC based, that will perform Email List functions (like subscriptions, double-opt-in, autoresponders, email customization, etc). I'd appreciate any product references. James S. Huggins ... From minid at weblogs.com.ar Wed Jun 5 01:53:01 2002 From: minid at weblogs.com.ar (mini-d) Date: Wed Jun 5 01:53:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] This software is super kewl! In-Reply-To: <11DE2DA8F971D311BDAB009027B1067414BFE23E@pobox4.intra.co.fresno.ca.us> Message-ID: <000101c20c5d$7dccc9a0$0b00a8c0@diego> It looks good. I will try it a little bit... The sad about it is just it parses only 55 documents. -----Mensaje original----- De: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] En nombre de Waller, Rio Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 05 de junio de 2002 1:30 Para: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org' Asunto: [thelist] This software is super kewl! Hello Everyone, If you have a neen to generate sitemaps or like pages...take a look at this software: http://www.xtreeme.com/sitexpert/index.html It just saved to a couple days of work...and NO I don't benefit in anyway from the sale of the software. I have just learned so much from this list wanted to give a little back! Rio :) WebPerson Partial Owner of http://www.Zwerx.com LLC Day Job http://www.FresnoHumanServices.org -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Jun 5 02:48:01 2002 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed Jun 5 02:48:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <558621B2-7858-11D6-95D8-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:46 am, Daniel Fascia wrote: > A great deal of large, corporate websites who blatantly have content > management systems in place seem to now use > flat files instead of the usual ?page=734327434&la=qy234y24 crap that > screws up search engines. > > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are > they using to create this? The short answer is that many CMS aren't in themselves app servers or web servers, or at least don't *have* to be. They only handle the back-stage stuff and expose a content repository to the app/web server. As someone pointed out, the app/web server could be whole farm of the things. So big.com/about/investors/index.html has a real file at that location, but all it does is pull in a template and content assets. Of course, some examples of the corporates you're thinking of might be useful... > Does the CMS churn out flat html pages as soon as the edits are made or > what??? really confused and the answer is > probably really simple ;-) Some CMS will do that, yes. The other thing is that some corporate sites don't really allow for much *new* page creation - the IA is largely fixed and to change it takes development time, rather than content manager effort. All the content managers can do is amend the assets which get pulled into the pages. This is even more common for new *sections* of a site. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE8/cHUcegecKg1zMsRArzGAKDb7ID6iYEFQInKTrfZdhFtL3p36QCfU977 TAuH4FLEcmv0gzBdcyBCTVQ= =l1bs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jacborg at mac.com Wed Jun 5 02:59:01 2002 From: jacborg at mac.com (Joseph A Borg) Date: Wed Jun 5 02:59:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] IE 5.5 CSS bug? Message-ID: <05808617-7859-11D6-940E-000502A39AB6@mac.com> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I am working on a website, the dummy can be found at: http://homepage.mac.com/jacborg/synod/docs/ (needs a big brushing up) This site shows up well On Mac browsers (inc Netscape Communicator 4.75) as well as Konqueror on Suse Linux IE 5.5 displays an ugly frame around the p class="intro" -- it should only display a rule top and bottom of the paragraph. language used is native Maltese... regards Joseph A Borg Salam, Triq Ta' Brija, Siggiewi QRM 16 Malta Tel: +356 21466218 -- From JHuggins at JamesSHuggins.com Wed Jun 5 03:11:06 2002 From: JHuggins at JamesSHuggins.com (James S. Huggins (dot com)) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:11:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am looking for software, preferably PC or MAC based, that will perform Email List functions (like subscriptions, double-opt-in, autoresponders, email customization, etc). I'd appreciate any product references. James S. Huggins ... From szh at hotpop.com Wed Jun 5 03:11:17 2002 From: szh at hotpop.com (Syed Zeeshan Haider) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:11:17 2002 Subject: [thelist] Looks like I have a virus References: <20020605043149.09834C0CD@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <001601c20c60$70134520$c20587cb@haidersystem> Hi Chris, Get a little (132 KB) chunk of Anti-Virus for KLEZ from http://www.symantec.com/. It will sweep the virus out of your machine. Personal Experience Guaranteed! Syed Zeeshan Haider. http://syedzeeshanhaider.faithweb.com/ ----- Original Message ----- Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 06:57:35 +0900 From: Chris Anderson To: Christian Anderson Subject: [thelist] Looks like I have a virus Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hi everyone, Looks like my computer got that KLEZ virus that is going around the net, and I think that it must have been sent to a bunch of you, or will be. Its passed through email, and is a big pain to get rid of. So anyway, if you get any email from me with stupid subjects like "honey" or "my new girlfriend" or "cellpadding" bla bla bla, and there are attachments, just delete them without even opening them. Chris Chris Anderson Photokyo - Digitally capturing the best Tokyo has to offer! http://www.photokyo.com -- From axe at suburbia.com.au Wed Jun 5 03:35:00 2002 From: axe at suburbia.com.au (Chris) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:35:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Message Doubles Message-ID: Hello, Is anyone else seeing double when it comes to evolt list messages? I seem to have been getting doubles all day.... Thanks, Chris From jacborg at mac.com Wed Jun 5 03:43:01 2002 From: jacborg at mac.com (Joseph A Borg) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:43:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] How do they do that? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D7C2967-785F-11D6-B69B-000502A39AB6@mac.com> do a search on evolt for "php url" will give you a lot to read... regards On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:46 AM, Daniel Fascia wrote: > This may seem like a very niaive question but what sort of system are > they using to create this? > Joseph A Borg Salam, Triq Ta' Brija, Siggiewi QRM 16 Malta Tel: +356 21466218 From luminosity at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 03:46:02 2002 From: luminosity at members.evolt.org (Lachlan Cannon) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:46:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Bobby (was: Accessibility Question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1026.139.130.216.191.1023266737.squirrel@members.evolt.org> Martin Burns said: > Validation by an automated tool is only ever going to be part of the > story, as to be effectively accessible requires understanding what the > intent of the page is, and whether the page actually fulfils that for > users with disabilities. True, which is why eventually I just gave up, and read through the WAI guidelines (and couldn't find anything I was doing wrong, though I'll admit it was a briefish scan). It just amused me that in the end it was easier checking against WAI myself rather than (trying) using an automated tool. > > An automated tool will never (forseeably) be able to assess whether > your longdesc is an effective description of the image... OTOH, it wouldn't be too hard to get a tool to recognise blinking flashing bad font animated stuff, and generate a longdesc telling the person who couldn't see the image to be thankful. ;) Lach -------------------------------------- http://members.evolt.org/luminosity/ MSN: luminosity @ members.evolt.org -------------------------------------- From jacborg at mac.com Wed Jun 5 03:56:01 2002 From: jacborg at mac.com (Joseph A Borg) Date: Wed Jun 5 03:56:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count? In-Reply-To: <008101c20c19$aa0894c0$760ae343@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <0691BB40-7861-11D6-B69B-000502A39AB6@mac.com> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Konqueror on Suse Linux seems to identify itself as Netscape 5.0 by default@! oh well On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 12:46 AM, Sharon F. Malone wrote: >> I would say so. Any report showing Netscape 5 has more likely >> misidentified Netscape 6 rather than actually had a visitor using a >> pre-Mozilla "Netscape 5 beta". >> Joseph A Borg Salam, Triq Ta' Brija, Siggiewi QRM 16 Malta Tel: +356 21466218 -- From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk Wed Jun 5 04:13:00 2002 From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes) Date: Wed Jun 5 04:13:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] align a table within php In-Reply-To: <001601c20c60$70134520$c20587cb@haidersystem> Message-ID: anyone know how to align a table within php so it it top left? There seems to be a problem with doing this within the html tags? Andrew --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02 From evolt at david.us-lot.org Wed Jun 5 04:16:00 2002 From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward) Date: Wed Jun 5 04:16:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020605101704.64623865.evolt@david.us-lot.org> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:02:15 -0500 "James S. Huggins (Evolt)" wrote: > I am looking for software, preferably PC or MAC based, that will > perform Email List functions (like subscriptions, double-opt-in, > autoresponders, email customization, etc). > > I'd appreciate any product references. Mailman, http://www.list.org/ - should run on a Mac. To quote the page: Mailman currently runs only on Unix-y systems, such as GNU/Linux, Solaris, *BSD, etc. It should work on MacOSX but not earlier versions of MacOS. It probably does not work on Windows, although it's possible you could get it running on a Cygwin system (please let the developer community know if you have success with this!) -- David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/ HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV. From evolt at david.us-lot.org Wed Jun 5 04:22:01 2002 From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward) Date: Wed Jun 5 04:22:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] align a table within php In-Reply-To: References: <001601c20c60$70134520$c20587cb@haidersystem> Message-ID: <20020605102232.3ef20219.evolt@david.us-lot.org> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:13:54 +0100 "Andrew Maynes" wrote: > anyone know how to align a table within php so it it top left? Generate the HTML or CSS that would do this usually. > There seems to be a problem with doing this within the html tags? Its what the HTML says that is important, not how you generate it (PHP, by hand, Dreamweaver, etc). It seems likely that you have introduced an error somewhere, in that situation I would take an instant trip to http://validator.w3.org/ -- David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/ HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV. From dm at lgcy.com Wed Jun 5 04:57:00 2002 From: dm at lgcy.com (Daniel Medley) Date: Wed Jun 5 04:57:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4...you make me want to put an icepick in my temple. References: Message-ID: <000401c20c80$1ea87960$99ca0ed0@havoc> Okay, I have NN 4.08 on my puter as a tester. It started acting goofy so I reinstalled it. When I did so, I made sure to uncheck all the file associations. But when it installed, looky here, it hijacked all of my file associations including HomeSite. I would like to undo this and get all of my html files to associate with IE and to have IE associated with HomeSite once again. How do I do this? Thank you in advance. Daniel From genghis at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 05:36:01 2002 From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 5 05:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: <01c20c02$8f4c37c0$3caa1dd1@rudy> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of rudy > Sent: 04 June 2002 21:01 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid > > designers who force you to open your window to avoid a horizontal scroll > are just as self-centered as people who drive to work with three seats > empty With all due respect, Rudy (and I hope you know that I'm sincere about that)... that's a crock :-) (For info, I usually do 'ice' designs - but part of the logic of that process imho is that your maximum layout width is 600px and no more) The thing that bugs the crap out of me when this comes up is that the pro-'liquid' camp insists that I'm forcing people to resize their browsers (even as they tell me their own layouts don't shrink to smaller than 600px), when in fact *the exact opposite* is true. I run browsers full-screen. I've never seen a neophyte user do anything else (maybe it's a UK thing? whatever, it's not relevant to this point anyway). If a 'liquid' layout renders text columns which are more than 8-12 words in length, that designer forces *me* to resize my browser window, else the site is unusable. Yeah, it's a print-originating point, but it's exactly as true on screen as it is on paper. No 'ice' site I do at 600px ever forces anyone to resize a window any more often than (I'm picking an example 'cos he won't mind) Aardvark's stuff, by his own admission a few posts ago. By contrast, *lots* of liquid sites, far far more, are less considerate. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 8933 1494 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From genghis at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 5 05:39:01 2002 From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 5 05:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows In-Reply-To: <000701c20c0a$3defb0c0$6501a8c0@neonreactor> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of John Corry > Sent: 04 June 2002 21:56 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows > > > I have a really weird error happening > > Code that worked fine (I think) 2 weeks ago doesn't work anymore. > > It's PHP that stores form values as session variables. It works on the > server (Apache/Linux) , but not on my workstation (Apache / Windows). > > It seems like a session variable is dissappearing...it's there on one > page, but then it just dissappears. Nothing in the code overwrites or > unregisters it...it just vanishes! If you're using IIS, and you're sending header() or cookie or session stuff *together*, it'll break. 6-year-old bug in IIS, could have been avoided by the PHP folks but they can't be bothered. Applies to CGI only. Which is nice in theory but the ISAPI module in PHP doesn't usually work at all :-( ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 8933 1494 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net Wed Jun 5 07:59:07 2002 From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg) Date: Wed Jun 5 07:59:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software References: Message-ID: <012401c20c87$2f458a40$773cfea9@crabnebula> James, You might want to look into Mailman (http://list.org/download.html). It's written in Python and the overall perforance is superb. Another package (this one in Perl) is Majordomo (http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/). This is also quite good in operation. In both cases, they can run on all platforms. In the case of Mailman, you may have to download Python (http://www.python.org), decompress it, and compile it for whatever platform you want to run it on; however, you also may have to download/decompress/compile Perl (http://www.perl.com) for the Mac. BTW, both mail-list packages are Open Source. Mailman is used by SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net) for the individual project mailing lists. Hope this helps. Best, Mike Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project Home My ICQ #:160896032 ----- Original Message ----- From: James S. Huggins (dot com) To: Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:59 AM Subject: [thelist] Email List Software > > I am looking for software, preferably PC or MAC based, that will perform > Email List functions (like subscriptions, double-opt-in, autoresponders, > email customization, etc). > > I'd appreciate any product references. > > > James S. Huggins > > > > > ... > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net Wed Jun 5 07:59:13 2002 From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg) Date: Wed Jun 5 07:59:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software References: <20020605101704.64623865.evolt@david.us-lot.org> Message-ID: <013c01c20c88$11558ca0$773cfea9@crabnebula> Actually, David, you're partially right. Mailman runs on Python. Python DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC or Mac, you can compile for Windoze. Being Open Source, Python is ditributed in source only. Best, Mike Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project Home My ICQ #:160896032 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dorward To: Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:17 AM Subject: Re: [thelist] Email List Software > On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:02:15 -0500 > "James S. Huggins (Evolt)" wrote: > > > I am looking for software, preferably PC or MAC based, that will > > perform Email List functions (like subscriptions, double-opt-in, > > autoresponders, email customization, etc). > > > > I'd appreciate any product references. > > Mailman, http://www.list.org/ - should run on a Mac. > > To quote the page: > > Mailman currently runs only on Unix-y systems, such as GNU/Linux, > Solaris, *BSD, etc. It should work on MacOSX but not earlier versions > of MacOS. It probably does not work on Windows, although it's possible > you could get it running on a Cygwin system (please let the developer > community know if you have success with this!) > > -- > David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/ > HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV. > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From simon at incutio.com Wed Jun 5 08:06:01 2002 From: simon at incutio.com (Simon Willison) Date: Wed Jun 5 08:06:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Email List Software In-Reply-To: <013c01c20c88$11558ca0$773cfea9@crabnebula> References: <20020605101704.64623865.evolt@david.us-lot.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605140235.02275a90@mail.incutio.com> At 07:56 05/06/02 -0400, you wrote: >Actually, David, you're partially right. Mailman runs on Python. Python >DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download >Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC or >Mac, you can compile for Windoze. Being Open Source, Python is ditributed >in source only. That's not true - Python can be downloaded for Windows in a lovely, easy to use pre-packaged binary installer: http://www.python.org/2.2.1/ Direct download link: http://www.python.org/ftp/python/2.2.1/Python-2.2.1.exe I use it for all kinds of things (it can do some great stuff on Windows - the scripting language is totally cross platform compatible anyway and when you add stuff like the Windows COM extensions it becomes a powerful way of scripting and programming on the Windows platform). Regards, Simon Willison From roselli at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 08:19:31 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Wed Jun 5 08:19:31 2002 Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid In-Reply-To: References: <01c20c02$8f4c37c0$3caa1dd1@rudy> Message-ID: <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org> > From: "John Handelaar" [...] > No 'ice' site I do at 600px ever forces anyone to > resize a window any more often than (I'm picking an > example 'cos he won't mind) Aardvark's stuff, by his > own admission a few posts ago. By contrast, *lots* > of liquid sites, far far more, are less considerate. hey, i *do* mind... i'm cryin' in my cheerios... and yes -- you are exactly right... liquid sites *can* be just as offensive to users... that's why seeing the use of the max-width CSS property with em-based units (so it conforms to the type size of the user) has the potential to be so useful.... but ideally, with proper user testing and the like, we can all make ice/liquid/jello/manure sites that work for our users... and that 600px thing is dangerous, too, since if you kick scrollbars up above default in Win, you'll get horizontal scroll... 580 is safer, but then, that's all moot in liquid and may be moot if you know your audience, too... the one thing i don't like about ice sites is when they ram themselves into the upper left corner... otherwise, i don't notice unless it's ice over 600px, since i keep my windows ~640px in width anyway... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg ISBN: 1904151035 From adam at hallinteractive.com Wed Jun 5 08:35:01 2002 From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam) Date: Wed Jun 5 08:35:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] textarea max character In-Reply-To: <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: hello all I'm looking for the answer to a thread I thought had been posted in the last few weeks but was unable to find in the list archives. How does one set the maximum character length/number for

thx!
Adam

<Tip type="Color Blindness">
Although there are various types of color blindness, nearly all color blind
people have difficulty distinguishing between red and green.
</tip>

From ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org  Wed Jun  5 08:53:01 2002
From: ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org (ADOLPH TRUDEAU)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:53:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?
Message-ID: <916EDFAA6F0AD411AFD800B0D02164BC439DD0@MASTER>

Hi Guys,

What are the standard ways to work around glob not being part of Win32 Perl?
I have tried:

use File::DosGlob 'Glob';

use File::DosGlob 'Global_Glob';

The site in question is at a managed hosting facility so I don't have much
control or access. All I really know is #!D:/perl/bin/perl and
d:\perl\lib/File/Dosglob.pm .

Any clues as to what I should be looking for?

Thanks,
Adolph

--
Adolph R. Trudeau
Bike Tour Coordinator
Lone Star Chapter, National MS Society
adolph.trudeau at txh.nmss.org
(713) 526 8967 x2241

From genghis at members.evolt.org  Wed Jun  5 08:58:01 2002
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Wed Jun  5 08:58:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
In-Reply-To: <013c01c20c88$11558ca0$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAGEEOEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Mike Rudberg
> Sent: 05 June 2002 12:57
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Email List Software
>
>
> Actually, David, you're partially right.  Mailman runs on Python.  Python
> DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download
> Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC or
> Mac, you can compile for Windoze.  Being Open Source, Python is ditributed
> in source only.

Not true - Python comes compiled from either Activestate.com
or is bundled in with Zope, if you want/have that.

Mailman might be written in Python, but it deals with
*nix mail systems.  It almost certainly isn't going to
work with Win32.

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

From adam at hallinteractive.com  Wed Jun  5 09:04:07 2002
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:04:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] file names
In-Reply-To: <B9238B98.9DC0%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <B9239288.9DC4%adam@hallinteractive.com>

Hey all
Here's another quick one. I was taught that using file names like
"Steve-#1.jpg" could cause problems with certain OS's/programs. This was
'97-'98.
I am however seeing an increasing number of recent grads using file names
like this (this one just came to me: Steve-#1.jpg)

I recall hearing that newer win OS'S can handle much longer file names but
what about mac's? what about cross system compatibility? Am I out of the
loop on again? lol

Isn't this still an issue?

cheers,
Adam

http://www.vischeck.com/
for images or websites

</tip>

From MPlunkett at MSA.com  Wed Jun  5 09:11:01 2002
From: MPlunkett at MSA.com (Plunkett, Matt)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:11:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?
Message-ID: <E5C785D03A1ED511B54F00508BB1E9685C22FF@IRONBARK.msais.com>

I use glob in my Win32 ActiveState Perl all the time...

-----Original Message-----
	From:	ADOLPH TRUDEAU [SMTP:ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org]
	Sent:	Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:45 AM
	To:	'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
	Subject:	[thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?

Hi Guys,

What are the standard ways to work around glob not being part of
Win32 Perl?

From snavely at amnh.org  Wed Jun  5 09:21:01 2002
From: snavely at amnh.org (John Snavely)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid
In-Reply-To: <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org>
References: <01c20c02$8f4c37c0$3caa1dd1@rudy>
 <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <v04220804b923cad88815@[172.16.34.66]>

IMHO, fixed width vs liquid isn't an all one or the other. Some
layouts only work with fixed widths. Some clients only like
fixed-width layouts. A good web designer should know them both.
I prefer liquid design because of it's "forward compatibility". A
liquid site will look pretty good in any browser size, on a PDA or
cell phone, or on Web TV. What happens to all those sites that are a
static 740px when the 8X6 standard changes, or their site needs to be
accessible by a different crowd using PDAs? But hey, if your audience
uses only one type of browser and only one size of window it's faster
and easier to make a fixed-with layout. And your graphics people
won't have to learn anything new.

From Evolt at ZName.com  Wed Jun  5 09:22:07 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:22:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
In-Reply-To: <012401c20c87$2f458a40$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMOEAMAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

========================
You might want to look into Mailman (http://list.org/download.html).  It's
written in Python and the overall perforance is superb.  Another package
(this one in Perl) is Majordomo (http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/).
This is also quite good in operation.
=======================

Thanks, Mike.

Actually, in this particular case, the client needs an installable package
that requires ZERO programming skills. The client can learn to "operate" the
package, but has no interest in learning to "program".

James S. Huggins

...

From nparrot at pair.com  Wed Jun  5 09:36:00 2002
From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:36:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows
References: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAKEEHEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <002801c20c9e$9af7eaa0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>

> >
> > I have a really weird error happening
> >
> > Code that worked fine (I think) 2 weeks ago doesn't work anymore.
> >
> > It's PHP that stores form values as session variables. It works on the
> > server (Apache/Linux) , but not on my workstation (Apache / Windows).
> >
> > It seems like a session variable is dissappearing...it's there on one
> > page, but then it just dissappears. Nothing in the code overwrites or
> > unregisters it...it just vanishes!

Oh, I am *so* familiar with this problem.. But I haven't been able to find a
cause yet! I've had the problem show up on Apache/Linux, with the same code
as the one that was working on another Apache/Linux box. Total mystery to
me...

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Jun  5 09:40:01 2002
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Bobby (was: Accessibility Question)
Message-ID: <OFE1FC9006.10E3E31C-ON80256BCF.004FE71C@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

>Martin Burns said:
>> Validation by an automated tool is only ever going to be part of the
>> story, as to be effectively accessible requires understanding what the
>> intent of the page is, and whether the page actually fulfils that for
>> users with disabilities.

>True, which is why eventually I just gave up, and read through the WAI
>guidelines (and couldn't find anything I was doing wrong, though I'll
admit
>it was a briefish scan). It just amused me that in the end it was easier
>checking against WAI myself rather than (trying) using an automated tool.

I find Bobby useful as a first-pass. My site is all template driven, and I
*know* the templates are AAA. However, the content I put into the templates
sometimes suffers typos and rare lapses into laziness. Bobby's good at
picking up when that happens.

When I'm working on clients' sites, I often find that the place which falls
down is also the content entered into the CMS by content managers.

At one level, this is much easier to deal with, as the accessibility
principle is already established. Getting Content Managers to actually *do*
it however can be a bit tricky, as you have to keep checking every edit
until they grasp it.

Developing the client's CMS user training gives you a head start, though,
as you can ensure that only valid, accessible HTML is taught (<strong>, not
<b> etc), that the principle of structural markup is established and that
content managers are discouraged from buying random HTML and 'web design'
books which contain the errors we all know and love.

Start people off with the right habits, and you're 1/2 way there.

Cheers
Martin

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
individual, non-business capacity and is not on
behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming
e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and
telecommunications systems.
_________________________________________________________________
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material.  Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.   If you received
this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
computer.

From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com  Wed Jun  5 09:41:05 2002
From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:41:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows
In-Reply-To: <002801c20c9e$9af7eaa0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <001601c20c9f$257fa190$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>

[snip]
> > I have a really weird error happening
> >
> > Code that worked fine (I think) 2 weeks ago doesn't work anymore.
> >
> > It's PHP that stores form values as session variables. It works on the
> > server (Apache/Linux) , but not on my workstation (Apache / Windows).
> >
> > It seems like a session variable is dissappearing...it's there on one
> > page, but then it just dissappears. Nothing in the code overwrites or
> > unregisters it...it just vanishes!

Check your PHP version. In the latest version GLOBAL VARIABLES in php.ini
have been defaulted to 'off' instead of 'on'. This will effect how variables
are passed from page to page and/or how you have to retrieve them from page
to page. That would be the first thing that I would check. If you find it to
be 'off' turn it back 'on' and test your scripts.

HTH!

Jay

From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com  Wed Jun  5 09:43:01 2002
From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:43:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid
Message-ID: <OF45404C26.124A53FB-ON86256BCF.00506198@na.jci.com>

>if the design department wants 750 width, i don't see what the problem
>is. make the minimum 750 and allow for the design to expand as far as it
>wants. my point with the stats is that if 51% of users are at 8x6 and
>the design is set for a minimum of 750 then 51% of the users will be
>getting what the "design department" wants.

Ummm..... No. It means 51% are capable of seeing the display the design
department wants *if* they have their browser set to full screen. That
number might be the full 51% or it might be only 5%. You don't know, from
the information given, how small that number is.

Have fun,
Arlen
Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department
DNRC 224

Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com
----------------------------------------------
In God we trust; all others must provide data.
----------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone.
If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it.

From evolt at accessibleinter.net  Wed Jun  5 09:46:01 2002
From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] textarea max character
In-Reply-To: <B9238B98.9DC0%adam@hallinteractive.com>
References: <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605074408.009fd2a0@accessibleinter.net>

At 06:34 AM 06/05/2002, Adam wrote:
>hello all
>I'm looking for the answer to a thread I thought had been posted in the last
>few weeks but was unable to find in the list archives.
>
>How does one set the maximum character length/number for <textarea> ?

The only way to do that is via JavaScript.

One example script is http://javascript.internet.com/forms/limit-textarea.html

Bill Mason
Accessible Internet
evolt at accessibleinter.net
http://www.accessibleinter.net/

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Jun  5 09:48:01 2002
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:48:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
Message-ID: <OF6C32FCCE.7275B3EF-ON80256BCF.00509AAA@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

James

>From experience of managing lists with Mailman-variants, the user interface
is very simple and requires no programming experience for day to day
operations.

Martin

Thanks, Mike.

Actually, in this particular case, the client needs an installable package
that requires ZERO programming skills. The client can learn to "operate"
the
package, but has no interest in learning to "program".

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
individual, non-business capacity and is not on
behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Jun  5 09:54:01 2002
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
Message-ID: <OF5C2E8B72.ED996367-ON80256BCF.0051164D@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Also
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_apps_utilities/python21.html

Word of warning - if you're planning on running Zope, don't install
Python2.2. Zope (versions 2.4 to the current 2.5.1) requires Python2.1

Cheers
Martin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Mike Rudberg
> Sent: 05 June 2002 12:57
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Email List Software
>
>
> Actually, David, you're partially right.  Mailman runs on Python.  Python
> DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download
> Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC
or
> Mac, you can compile for Windoze.  Being Open Source, Python is
ditributed
> in source only.

Not true - Python comes compiled from either Activestate.com
or is bundled in with Zope, if you want/have that.

Mailman might be written in Python, but it deals with
*nix mail systems.  It almost certainly isn't going to
work with Win32.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
individual, non-business capacity and is not on
behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 09:57:11 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 09:57:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] textarea max character
In-Reply-To: <B9238B98.9DC0%adam@hallinteractive.com>
References: <200206051318.g55DIvCN014005@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3CFDC2E6.10520.895664@localhost>

> How does one set the maximum character length/number for <textarea> ?
>
It's a bit more complicated than simply adding maxlength="30" to your
<textarea> string and invlolves some javascript and an .htc file. A good
explanation can be found at:
http://www.siteexperts.com/ie5/htc/ts08/page1.asp
Basically you need to check the length of the textarea before submitting the
form or check the length every time the textarea is changed. Another
javascript solution that also tells the form user how many characters are left
can be had at:
http://www.smartwebby.com/DHTML/textbox_characters_counter.asp as well
as this version which I think is a little better at (URL
wraps):http://webdeveloper.earthweb.com/webjs/item/0,,12755_74001_viewit
,00.html

HTH!

From Evolt at ZName.com  Wed Jun  5 10:01:11 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:01:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
In-Reply-To: <OF5C2E8B72.ED996367-ON80256BCF.0051164D@ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMGEBKAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

Let me attempt to be more specific.

I'm looking for something like this . . .

http://fairlogic.com/worldcast/index.shtml

But more.

James S. Huggins

...

From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com  Wed Jun  5 10:06:04 2002
From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:06:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows..MORE
In-Reply-To: <001601c20c9f$257fa190$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>
Message-ID: <001b01c20ca2$aef089f0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>

[snip]
Check your PHP version. In the latest version GLOBAL VARIABLES in php.ini
have been defaulted to 'off' instead of 'on'. This will effect how variables
are passed from page to page and/or how you have to retrieve them from page
to page. That would be the first thing that I would check. If you find it to
be 'off' turn it back 'on' and test your scripts.
[/snip]

The exact line that you're looking for in php.ini is;

register_globals = On

HTH!

Jay

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Jun  5 10:13:01 2002
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:13:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
Message-ID: <OF89D1932A.8303E6EE-ON80256BCF.0053625F@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/directmail.html
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/intellimerge.html
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/maxbulkmailer.html

Cheers
Martin
(assuming you're only using this for opt-in communications...)

Let me attempt to be more specific.

I'm looking for something like this . . .

http://fairlogic.com/worldcast/index.shtml

But more.

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
individual, non-business capacity and is not on
behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

From ken.kogler at cph.org  Wed Jun  5 10:15:04 2002
From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:15:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid
In-Reply-To: <OF45404C26.124A53FB-ON86256BCF.00506198@na.jci.com>
Message-ID: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEJNCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>

So it seems the general consensus is that we need to accomplish a few
individual things:

* TEST TEST TEST
 * Don't override user preference
 * If liquid, set min and max widths
 * If static width, go WAY under 750 (more like 600-ish)

Anything I'm missing here?

-Ken

From bharoche at usa.net  Wed Jun  5 10:17:01 2002
From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:17:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
References: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMGEBKAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <002501c20ca3$e876fd70$9865fea9@Laptop>

Hi James,

Here's a list of desktop mailing software you might find interesting. I
haven't demo'd any of them, sorry to say.

http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt7/issue109.htm

I'd be very interested in knowing what solution you ultimately choose, so
could you post your choice back to the list or email me off-list? Thanks.

HTH,

Regards,
Bob Haroche
O n P o i n t  S o l u t i o n s
http://www.OnPointSolutions.com

From erick_papadakis at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 10:20:10 2002
From: erick_papadakis at yahoo.com (Erick Papadakis)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:20:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] HORRIBLY OT: Virtual PC and Linux
Message-ID: <20020605151912.71884.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com>

i am hoping that someone knows about virtual PC from
connectix. its an OS emulator.

i want to install linux on it. during install, it
selects my SUSE to be installed on the whole hard
disk. how do i manage this? will the os really be
stored only as a virtual PC, and not affect my hard
disk otherwise? or will all my data get overwritten?

thanks for any insight!

erick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From nparrot at pair.com  Wed Jun  5 10:33:11 2002
From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:33:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names
References: <20020605151912.71884.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c20ca6$90e311e0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>

I am trying to find a list of all the country extensions that currently
exist, and I'm not having any luck. I guess my search keywords are not the
good ones.

In short, I want to know if .TB is valid, and for which country it would be.
(and if it is valid, how can I get a domain with that extension? )

Nicole

From nparrot at pair.com  Wed Jun  5 10:36:00 2002
From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:36:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names
References: <20020605151912.71884.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> <00af01c20ca6$90e311e0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <00cd01c20ca7$00114a00$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>

argh. just as I send my email for help, I find
http://www.domainit.com/country-domains-qz.html  which would indicate that
.TB isn't available, but .TD would be...

Thanks.
Move along move along..

Nicole
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicole P" <nparrot at pair.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names

> I am trying to find a list of all the country extensions that currently
> exist, and I'm not having any luck. I guess my search keywords are not the
> good ones.
>
> In short, I want to know if .TB is valid, and for which country it would
be.
> (and if it is valid, how can I get a domain with that extension? )
>
> Nicole
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From ken.kogler at cph.org  Wed Jun  5 10:38:01 2002
From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] HORRIBLY OT: Virtual PC and Linux
In-Reply-To: <20020605151912.71884.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEJOCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>

It's been a few months since I used it, and I ran it under WinXP and
installed a Win98 virtual PC, but I remember this, too.

Choosing the C:\ drive (or whatever) for the virtual PC will not overwrite
your existing data... that's selecting the drive to be used as the default
in the virtual environment.

HTH,

Ken

Disclaimer: I've been wrong before.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Erick Papadakis
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:19 AM
To: thelist
Subject: [thelist] HORRIBLY OT: Virtual PC and Linux

i am hoping that someone knows about virtual PC from
connectix. its an OS emulator.

thanks for any insight!

erick

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 10:40:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
Message-ID: <A8VQB0GCSQJH1L1YSNA5XWGDZVIF.3cfe3079@DANFASCIA-21>

Thanks for all of the advice on safe URLs on CMS... Ive decided the best way for me is a system
that creates flat HTML files as soon as the backend data is entered. I know that this involves
CHMODing the directory values (to 777 I think).

Does this have any security issues at all?

I also noticed that google DOES index many php based URL's with ? and & in the URL...

try searching for "php url" and some of the php.net and zend.com urls definately have
variables in there

From spalmisano at usashs.com  Wed Jun  5 10:40:14 2002
From: spalmisano at usashs.com (Salvatore Palmisano)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names
In-Reply-To: <00af01c20ca6$90e311e0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <000c01c20ca7$2fbccf90$0e00a8c0@shsnet.local>

http://www.norid.no/domreg.html

HTH
.Salvatore

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Nicole P
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 11:35 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names

I am trying to find a list of all the country extensions that currently
exist, and I'm not having any luck. I guess my search keywords are not
the good ones.

In short, I want to know if .TB is valid, and for which country it would
be. (and if it is valid, how can I get a domain with that extension? )

Nicole

From josh at eaccessit.com  Wed Jun  5 10:40:27 2002
From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:40:27 2002
Subject: [thelist] CF Applet Tags (CFGRID, CFTREE, etc.) Class won't load
Message-ID: <000101c20ca7$2716c2b0$c801a8c0@xyz>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Hello,

I am trying to use CFGRID to edit one of my DB tables.  In our office we
have 7 computers.  It will work fine on 4 of them and not at all on 3.

All computers have Java VM installed and enabled.

On the computers that it won't work, all that shows up is a grey box.  I
also get the error allaire.controls.cfGridFormApplet not found.

Thanks in advance,
Josh
--

From Evolt at ZName.com  Wed Jun  5 10:41:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:41:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names
In-Reply-To: <00af01c20ca6$90e311e0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMAECGAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

================
I am trying to find a list of all the country extensions that currently
exist, and I'm not having any luck. I guess my search keywords are not the
good ones.
================

http://www.icann.org/cctlds/

James S. Huggins

...

From RWaller at fresno.ca.gov  Wed Jun  5 10:49:09 2002
From: RWaller at fresno.ca.gov (Waller, Rio)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:49:09 2002
Subject: [thelist] This software is super kewl!
Message-ID: <11DE2DA8F971D311BDAB009027B1067414BFE242@pobox4.intra.co.fresno.ca.us>

Not sure what you are referencing to "parses 55 documents"  I used it to
create a sitemap from a site with over 600 pages.

Rio ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: mini-d [mailto:minid at weblogs.com.ar]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:52 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] This software is super kewl!

It looks good. I will try it a little bit... The sad about it is just it
parses only 55 documents.

From jacborg at mac.com  Wed Jun  5 10:57:03 2002
From: jacborg at mac.com (Joseph A Borg)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:57:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] HORRIBLY OT: Virtual PC and Linux
In-Reply-To: <20020605151912.71884.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F10477C6-789B-11D6-AF45-000502A39AB6@mac.com>

you're taking the long winded and buggy way: most probably the endeavor
will not succeed.

AFAIK Suse have a linux version for Mac, there are other options as
well: FreeBSD, Darwin...

I did a positive search on google with
	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux+ppc+macintosh

regards

On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 05:19 PM, Erick Papadakis wrote:

> i am hoping that someone knows about virtual PC from
> connectix. its an OS emulator.
>
> i want to install linux on it. during install, it
> selects my SUSE to be installed on the whole hard
> disk. how do i manage this? will the os really be
> stored only as a virtual PC, and not affect my hard
> disk otherwise? or will all my data get overwritten?
>
> thanks for any insight!
>
> erick
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
Joseph A Borg
Salam, Triq Ta' Brija,
Siggiewi QRM 16
Malta
Tel: +356 21466218

From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Wed Jun  5 10:58:02 2002
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
Message-ID: <OF5F32DF7B.49567452-ON80256BCF.00573971@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

It's not really a surprise that Python is Windows-ported.

Zope is cross-platform: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope/2.5.1
and is (largely) written in Python.

Cheers
Martin

At 07:56 05/06/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Actually, David, you're partially right.  Mailman runs on Python.  Python
>DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download
>Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC or
>Mac, you can compile for Windoze.  Being Open Source, Python is ditributed
>in source only.

That's not true - Python can be downloaded for Windows in a lovely, easy to
use pre-packaged binary installer:

http://www.python.org/2.2.1/

--------------------- End of message text --------------------

This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
individual, non-business capacity and is not on
behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Wed Jun  5 10:59:01 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Wed Jun  5 10:59:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] file names
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EA9@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Adam [mailto:adam at hallinteractive.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:04 AM
> To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject:	[thelist] file names
>
> Hey all
> Here's another quick one. I was taught that using file names like
> "Steve-#1.jpg" could cause problems with certain OS's/programs. This was
> '97-'98.
> I am however seeing an increasing number of recent grads using file names
> like this (this one just came to me: Steve-#1.jpg)

The only illegal filename character on MacOS (pre-OSX), AFAIK, is the colon.
In OSX (by extension from Unix-like OSes) I believe that a filename may
include any character as long as they are properly escaped.

Under Windows, filenames cannot include the following characters: ? [ ] / \
= + < > : ; " ,
Also, NT Server doesn't like filenames that end with either a dot or a
space.

Finally, Windows doesn't like files that are named the same as the various
PC ports, including com1 thru com9, lpt1 thru lpt9, con, nul, and prn (not
exhaustive).

# is not an illegal file name character in any widely-used OS to the best of
my knowledge.

From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 11:00:05 2002
From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:00:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] This software is super kewl!
In-Reply-To: <11DE2DA8F971D311BDAB009027B1067414BFE242@pobox4.intra.co.fresno.ca.us>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCGEBICPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>

what software is this? I missed the earlier thread

Andrew
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

From mail at jasoncartwright.com  Wed Jun  5 11:01:07 2002
From: mail at jasoncartwright.com (Jason Cartwright)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:01:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] First level domain names
In-Reply-To: <00af01c20ca6$90e311e0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <000801c20ca7$1da6fd30$0100a8c0@jason>

http://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld-whois.htm lists ccTLDs, and the
administrative information for each country.

> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Nicole P
> Subject: [thelist] First level domain names

From mail at jasoncartwright.com  Wed Jun  5 11:01:17 2002
From: mail at jasoncartwright.com (Jason Cartwright)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:01:17 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
In-Reply-To: <A8VQB0GCSQJH1L1YSNA5XWGDZVIF.3cfe3079@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <000901c20ca8$974ed440$0100a8c0@jason>

I've noticed this. Google hasn't touch any of the pages with a '?' in
the URL on my ASP-based sites. Very annoying.

I'm going to be using this handy tool to get rid of the ?s on my new
Win2k/ASP.net site -
http://www.pstruh.cz/help/urlrepl/library.htm

Jason
www.jasoncartwright.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Fascia
> Sent: 05 June 2002 16:39
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga

> I also noticed that google DOES index many php based URL's
> with ? and & in the URL...
>
> try searching for "php url" and some of the php.net and
> zend.com urls definately have variables in there

From RWaller at fresno.ca.gov  Wed Jun  5 11:04:00 2002
From: RWaller at fresno.ca.gov (Waller, Rio)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:04:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] This software is super kewl!
Message-ID: <11DE2DA8F971D311BDAB009027B1067414BFE244@pobox4.intra.co.fresno.ca.us>

http://www.xtreeme.com/sitexpert/index.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Maynes [mailto:andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:01 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] This software is super kewl!

what software is this? I missed the earlier thread

Andrew
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  5 11:09:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] gopher burrows under IE
Message-ID: <200206051608.g55G8BCN020691@leo.evolt.org>

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/020604/microsoft_security_flaw_1.html

[...]
A security flaw in Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser could allow
a hacker to take control of a remote computer if its user clicks a
link to an outdated Internet protocol, a computer security firm says.
[...]
The problem concerns Gopher, an Internet protocol that predates
the World Wide Web with pages like Web pages except that they
are unable to store audio and video content.
[...]

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Wed Jun  5 11:12:00 2002
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:12:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Google Toolbar Beta
Message-ID: <007801c20cab$adb13d10$6561a8c0@vader>

Does anyone have the URL for the beta features of the Google toolbar?
Someone pointed it out to me a while ago but I can't find it. There are
some new features they are testing. (One supresses window openings in
onUnload()).

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, ColdFusion Jedi Master for Macromedia

Email    : jedimaster at macromedia.com
Yahoo IM : morpheus

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

From david_kutcher at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  5 11:14:01 2002
From: david_kutcher at hotmail.com (David Kutcher)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:14:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] gopher burrows under IE
References: <200206051608.g55G8BCN020691@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <LAW2-OE357wEUXUqgNk00005daf@hotmail.com>

you can also visit the /. discussion on it already underway.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/06/05/148244&mode=nested&tid=109

david

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  5 11:15:05 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid
In-Reply-To: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEJNCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>
References: <OF45404C26.124A53FB-ON86256BCF.00506198@na.jci.com>
Message-ID: <200206051614.g55GE8CN020931@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Ken Kogler <ken.kogler at cph.org>
>
> So it seems the general consensus is that we need to accomplish a few
> individual things:
>
>  * TEST TEST TEST
>  * Don't override user preference
>  * If liquid, set min and max widths
>  * If static width, go WAY under 750 (more like 600-ish)
>
> Anything I'm missing here?

hmm... that sounds kinda good...

almost too concise for all the hot air we've all been blowing...

but that sounds like a pretty good list...

or did i say that already?

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Wed Jun  5 11:16:18 2002
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:16:18 2002
Subject: [thelist] Google Toolbar Beta
In-Reply-To: <007801c20cab$adb13d10$6561a8c0@vader>
Message-ID: <007901c20cac$24b587e0$6561a8c0@vader>

Never mind - fount it myself.... http://toolbar.google.com/experimental

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, ColdFusion Jedi Master for Macromedia

Email    : jedimaster at macromedia.com
Yahoo IM : morpheus

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Camden
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:12 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Google Toolbar Beta
>
>
> Does anyone have the URL for the beta features of the Google toolbar?
> Someone pointed it out to me a while ago but I can't find it.
> There are
> some new features they are testing. (One supresses window openings in
> onUnload()).

From sam at sam-i-am.com  Wed Jun  5 11:19:00 2002
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:19:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size
References: <200206041526.g54FQECN031369@leo.evolt.org> <200206041652.g54GqaCN002174@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3CFE3C44.E69D1CDB@sam-i-am.com>

to see the true size of a page in IE:
 clear your browser cache (open the folder and delete everything -
including cookies)
 shift reload the page
 copy the contents of the cache folder to another scratch folder
 in the explorer window status bar, it tells you the total filesize of
the scratch directory contents (not including sub directories - which in
this case you wont have)

(the temporary internet files (cache) folder is a special window that
doesn't give you file size totals)

it's not as quick and easy as some of the other methods, but the only
way I know of to include all files associated and loaded with a page in
your page-weight count.

the news is rarely good - I've seen lots of target page-weights blown
this way as suddenly the javascript and css files get added into the
total, as well as rollover images etc.

Sam

aardvark wrote:
>
> > From: Ken Kogler <ken.kogler at cph.org>
> >
> > > what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie
> > > that shows all theimages on a page... it totals
> > > the file sizes at the end...
> >
> > Right, but what about us who don't have IE5.5? Any other solutions out
> > there? I'd rather not have to save a file and all the graphics to my
> > local machine to do this.
>
> it works on IE5.x...  sadly, only for windows, though... same with
> the IE Booster than ben linked
> (http://www.paessler.com/products/ieb/index.html)
>
> otherwise, can't help you...
>
> --
> Read the evolt.org case study
> Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
> ISBN: 1904151035
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org  Wed Jun  5 11:25:01 2002
From: ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org (ADOLPH TRUDEAU)
Date: Wed Jun  5 11:25:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?
Message-ID: <916EDFAA6F0AD411AFD800B0D02164BC439DD4@MASTER>

Thank you for your reply. Is there a global like %env that can tell me what
Win32 Perl the site is running?

Thanks,
Adolph

-----Original Message-----

Message: 30
From: "Plunkett, Matt" <MPlunkett at MSA.com>
To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Subject: RE: [thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:07:25 -0400
Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org

I use glob in my Win32 ActiveState Perl all the time...

-----Original Message-----
        From:   ADOLPH TRUDEAU [SMTP:ATRUDEAU at NMSSLONESTAR.org]
        Sent:   Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:45 AM
        To:     'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
        Subject:        [thelist] How to access Win32 Perl glob?

Hi Guys,

What are the standard ways to work around glob not being part of
Win32 Perl?

--__--__--

End of thelist Digest

From evolt at accessibleinter.net  Wed Jun  5 12:04:01 2002
From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:04:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605100301.009fde10@data1701d.com>

http://www.mozilla.org/

Bill Mason
Accessible Internet
evolt at accessibleinter.net
http://www.accessibleinter.net/

From chrisg at gsnet.com  Wed Jun  5 12:06:00 2002
From: chrisg at gsnet.com (Chris George)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:06:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] HORRIBLY OT: Virtual PC and Linux
In-Reply-To: <F10477C6-789B-11D6-AF45-000502A39AB6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B9239D77.741B%chrisg@gsnet.com>

I was under the impression that VirtualPC pretty much only existed for
emulating Winblows on a Mac or other PeeCees.  But I could be wrong.

What platform are you on?  Why do you want to run Linux via virtualPC?  For
the Mac, there's:
Yellowdog Linux
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/

Mandrake PPC
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/ppc.php3

Linux PPC
http://www.penguinppc.org/

AFAIK all of which can be dual booted.

Don't forget, you need to use the character entity reference for things like
ampersands:
<a href="stuff/script.pl?some&script&variables">Foo</a>

</tip>

HTH,

Chris.

On 6/5/02 9:50 AM, "Joseph A Borg" <jacborg at mac.com> wrote:

> you're taking the long winded and buggy way: most probably the endeavor
> will not succeed.
[snip]
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 05:19 PM, Erick Papadakis wrote:
>
>> i am hoping that someone knows about virtual PC from
>> connectix. its an OS emulator.
>>
>> i want to install linux on [VirtualPC]
[snip]

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 12:08:00 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:08:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] [tip] <BReaking Netscape>
Message-ID: <JEGAJD76537LFXV54GD62LKWTECYV3V.3cfe452d@DANFASCIA-21>

When changing from HTML to XHTML, its important to support older browsers right?

Make sure you include a trailing space in line breaks otherwise NS4x will not recognise
them.

GOOD = <BR />

BAD = <BR/>

</tip>

From ken.kogler at cph.org  Wed Jun  5 12:11:16 2002
From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:11:16 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020605100301.009fde10@data1701d.com>
Message-ID: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEKECAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>

> Mozilla 1.0 final is out
> http://www.mozilla.org/

Party time! Congrats to everyone who's put in years of effort to get this
far... here's to many more releases and many more downloads...

/me raises a pint of Guinness to the good folks at Mozilla

Does your browser suck? Try Mozilla! (mozilla.org)

</tip>

From carole at pixeltable.com  Wed Jun  5 12:28:01 2002
From: carole at pixeltable.com (carole guevin)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:28:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] looking up .ws domain
In-Reply-To: <3CFD226F.9036.8F7E76A9@localhost>
Message-ID: <EDEEKGOEBENBHEGBEKAJGELHDJAA.carole@pixeltable.com>

check - http://www.norid.no/domreg.html - scroll down to .ws. hth.

:can't find a whois that gives me the registration info for a .ws
:domain... i'm trying to find who the contact is...

carole guevin
+ communication design + http://pixeltable.com
++ feed your eyes! ++ http://netdiver.net

From cparker at swatgear.com  Wed Jun  5 12:46:01 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DEBATE: Fixed Width Vs Liquid
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE07817B@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

> >  * TEST TEST TEST
> >  * Don't override user preference
> >  * If liquid, set min and max widths
> >  * If static width, go WAY under 750 (more like 600-ish)
> >
> > Anything I'm missing here?
>
> hmm... that sounds kinda good...
>
> almost too concise for all the hot air we've all been blowing...
>
> but that sounds like a pretty good list...

i agree.

(and i guess i didn't explain my point very well... hmm... oh well. but
now i look dumb, and that's not any good! OH NO!)

From pf at cfdev.com  Wed Jun  5 12:51:11 2002
From: pf at cfdev.com (Pete Freitag)
Date: Wed Jun  5 12:51:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
In-Reply-To: <000901c20ca8$974ed440$0100a8c0@jason>
Message-ID: <BNEHJPJGINFFDIDGAICIGEGJGMAA.pf@cfdev.com>

Actually Google will index pages with a ? but it won't give them a pagerank,
so they are in the index, but since you don't have a pagerank they will show
up last in searches, unless you have keywords no one else does.

I recently wrote an ISAPI filter to do search engine URL conversions.
eg: /page.asp/x/1/y/2 translates into /page.asp?x=1&y=2

You can find it here: http://www.cfdev.com/products/
it's free and open source.

_____________________________________________
Pete Freitag (pfreitag at cfdev.com)
CTO, CFDEV.COM
ColdFusion Developer Resources
http://www.cfdev.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Jason Cartwright
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 11:50 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Safe URL saga

I've noticed this. Google hasn't touch any of the pages with a '?' in
the URL on my ASP-based sites. Very annoying.

I'm going to be using this handy tool to get rid of the ?s on my new
Win2k/ASP.net site -
http://www.pstruh.cz/help/urlrepl/library.htm

Jason
www.jasoncartwright.com

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Wed Jun  5 13:00:09 2002
From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:00:09 2002
Subject: [thelist] [tip] <BReaking Netscape>
Message-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC2032FC94A@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Fascia [mailto:danfascia at totalise.co.uk]
>
> <tip type="XHTML" author="Dan Fascia">
>
> When changing from HTML to XHTML, its important to support
> older browsers right?
>
> Make sure you include a trailing space in line breaks
> otherwise NS4x will not recognise them.
>
> GOOD = <BR />
>
> BAD = <BR/>
>
> </tip>

VALID = <br />

--
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------

From ken.kogler at cph.org  Wed Jun  5 13:03:00 2002
From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:03:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
In-Reply-To: <BNEHJPJGINFFDIDGAICIGEGJGMAA.pf@cfdev.com>
Message-ID: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHCEKHCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>

> I recently wrote an ISAPI filter to do search engine URL conversions.
> eg: /page.asp/x/1/y/2 translates into /page.asp?x=1&y=2

> You can find it here: http://www.cfdev.com/products/
> it's free and open source.

Looks like fun! I'll play with it on 127.0.0.1 tonight...

Is there a way to do this sort of thing in reverse? eg: the server notices a
request for /news.asp?article=24601, and redirects to
news.asp/article/24601? Or would that set up some kind of infinite loop?

I ask because I'm lazy and don't want to convert all my querystring links to
this new format...

-Ken

From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 13:21:04 2002
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:21:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] HTML email to Notes users
In-Reply-To: <OF02EC603B.FC5162E5-ON43256BCE.0027F271@symphony.co.ke>
Message-ID: <20020605181947.45783.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, that's what assumption was was going under for quite some time, and then
out of the blue I got an HTML newsletter from Mercedes-Benz that came through
to my Notes account perfectly! So, oddly, somehow that one worked great. Now
I'm trying to reverse-engineer it and see how (and why) it worked.

/rg
--- ashok at magicalkenya.com wrote:
> robert:
>
> the problem could be more with the config on  the notes server side.
> each user in notes has a person document (a config file) on the server, you
> can set up the format for incoming mails by user over there.
> typical settings are Mime and notes rich text (which does a CD format
> conversion) - probably this setting is not done correctly ?
> there is a also problem in the way domino server  converts incoming mail
> with embedded html which was fixed in rel. 5.0.7 (if you pick mail directly
> using a notes client you wont ecounter this problem...)
> they added a config setting for the notes server called 'mime_convert_html'
> or something like that - look it up in the lotus knowledge base for fixes
> with rel. 5.0.7....
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  5 13:31:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:31:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] [tip] <BReaking Netscape>
In-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC2032FC94A@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <200206051830.g55IU4CN026413@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com>
> >
> > GOOD = <BR />
> >
> > BAD = <BR/>
> >
> > </tip>
>
> VALID = <br />

also valid = <br/>

space or no space doesn't matter to validity, but case does
matter...  lowercase is valid...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 13:37:00 2002
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:37:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Hi Res Screen Grabs for Print
In-Reply-To: <a05100307b91d685af8e5@[10.10.8.248]>
Message-ID: <20020605183618.40570.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>

...or if you scale in an image editor, just turn off antialiasing and it looks
great. Postscript RIPs *hate* images that are not at their native resolution,
e.g.: scaled in a layout program vs. imported at 100%.

/rg

--- Jamie Bakum <jamie.bakum at circle.com> wrote:
> >then i scale in the layout package -- *not* in photoshop...
>
> Ahhh, never thought of scaling outside Photoshop - I'll give it whirl.
> Thanks!
>
> Jamie
> --

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From Matt at grndwtr.com  Wed Jun  5 13:56:01 2002
From: Matt at grndwtr.com (Matthias Ritzkowski)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:56:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Suse  7.2, Apache SSL
Message-ID: <8179FA78B6D0D111AA53006097B01280383F31@mail1>

Hi all -

Is there anyone I might be able to bother off list as well with a problem I
am having? :-)

I try to set up an Apache Web server on Suse Linux 7.2, with a regular web
site on port 80 and a secured one on port 443.
Did anyone get this to work? I am now reading that any port other than the
defaults under 1023 need to be addressed by root, the server is running
under a separate account (for a good reason and I 'd like to keep it that
way)
Does virtual hosting circumvent this?

Some how it all looks much easier in the manuals ...

Just wondering if someone got this to work.

Regards
Matthias Ritzkowski

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Wed Jun  5 13:58:14 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:58:14 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
References: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMGENBALAB.JHuggins@JamesSHuggins.com><EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIENCALAB.Evolt@ZName.com><20020605101704.64623865.evolt@david.us-lot.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605140235.02275a90@mail.incutio.com>
Message-ID: <02a301c20cbf$9c42b720$773cfea9@crabnebula>

I stand (sit?) corrected, Simon.  However, since I try to give windoze a
wide berth (unless gun is pointed at my head), I tend to forget such things.
This is also true (about the Window Binary) for Perl for Windows.
Difference there, though, is the binary has cost attached to it.  The source
is Open Source.

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Willison <simon at incutio.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Email List Software

> At 07:56 05/06/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Actually, David, you're partially right.  Mailman runs on Python.  Python
> >DOES come (typically) with most Linux releases; however, you can download
> >Python (http://www.python.org) and, if you have a C Compiler for the PC
or
> >Mac, you can compile for Windoze.  Being Open Source, Python is
ditributed
> >in source only.
>
> That's not true - Python can be downloaded for Windows in a lovely, easy
to
> use pre-packaged binary installer:
>
> http://www.python.org/2.2.1/
>
> Direct download link:
http://www.python.org/ftp/python/2.2.1/Python-2.2.1.exe
>
> I use it for all kinds of things (it can do some great stuff on Windows -
> the scripting language is totally cross platform compatible anyway and
when
> you add stuff like the Windows COM extensions it becomes a powerful way of
> scripting and programming on the Windows platform).
>
> Regards,
>
> Simon Willison
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Wed Jun  5 13:58:28 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:58:28 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
References: <OF6C32FCCE.7275B3EF-ON80256BCF.00509AAA@ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <02a401c20cbf$9f77a360$773cfea9@crabnebula>

No problem.  Truth is that once assuming (s)he has a version of Python it's
really almost a copying the scripts over to the machine.  Obviously, there's
no programming, per se; however, there's going to be SOME configurating --
can't get away from that, really.  Once everything is installed/configured,
it's "plug 'n' play".

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: <martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] Email List Software

>
> Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers
>
> -------------------- Start of message text --------------------
>
> James
>
> From experience of managing lists with Mailman-variants, the user
interface
> is very simple and requires no programming experience for day to day
> operations.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================
> You might want to look into Mailman (http://list.org/download.html).  It's
> written in Python and the overall perforance is superb.  Another package
> (this one in Perl) is Majordomo (http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/).
> This is also quite good in operation.
> =======================
>
> Thanks, Mike.
>
> Actually, in this particular case, the client needs an installable package
> that requires ZERO programming skills. The client can learn to "operate"
> the
> package, but has no interest in learning to "program".
>
>
> --------------------- End of message text --------------------
>
> This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
> individual, non-business capacity and is not on
> behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.
>
> PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming
> e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and
> telecommunications systems.
> _________________________________________________________________
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> material.  Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.   If you
received
> this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
> computer.
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Wed Jun  5 13:58:36 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Wed Jun  5 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [thelist] Looks like I have a virus
Message-ID: <E17Ffia-0006ke-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

Despite the fact that I put a large txt file with VIRUS WARNING on his
desktop, and tried to warn him several times that he was at risk (he
uses Outlook Express), my father's computer came down with Klez.

After I finally figured out how to disabled
"Go-back" and get his W'98 machine into safe mode, I cleaned it for
him.

THE NEXT MORNING, IT WAS BACK!

So, don't think that little chunk of FixKlez antiviral cleanser will
keep your machine safe. Every time you use non-Web-based e-mail, or non-
ASCII based e-mail client, or download an attachment, you run the risk
of reinfection. This particular worm is everywhere right now, and it's
hard to get rid of it (that's my English-language interpretation of the
stats about Klez). So check for it AGAIN, after every time you use any
elaborate e-mail product, or download any attachment.

Note: although I slipper-swap files developed on my unconnected NT
machine with my father's  connected W'98 machine, my own machine
remained clean. The description of this worm says it infects local
drives, but it didn't get to my floppy, perhaps because I don't use or
transport fancy e-mail files.

Good luck, all --
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com  Wed Jun  5 14:08:01 2002
From: JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com (Janet Green)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:08:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
Message-ID: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE09C8A1@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com>

Ok I give up and need some help. A colleague asked me how to write a link in the body of an email message so that it *displays* like a link in an HTML document (i.e., with a clickable "phrase" for the link instead of the long/ugly URL displayed). I've sent myself test messages in Outlook in the three available formats under Options... Mail Format (choices are "Outlook Rich Text Format," "HTML," and "plain text") They look like this:

<a href="http://www.desmoinesmetro.com">Linking phrase here</a>

but all that's displaying in the received email is the code, no matter which format I am in. Can someone just explain how this might work and any caveats that come with it?

Thanks...
Janet
(Now if I hit "send" and my message appears on thelist with a nice little link up there, I'm gonna scream...)

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Wed Jun  5 14:18:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: weird error, sometimes...
Message-ID: <E17FgHA-0007Ul-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

Okay, here's a tip from an old (since '69) programmer, so old I think
it probably cuts across most languages in general use today:

If your code seems to work sometimes and not other times, if any kind
of database is involved (or just a file which might have a pointer at
different locations), chances are *very* high that your problem is an
interaction of where in the data the pointer is, and where your code
thinks it is.

So, try to reinitialize your problematic routine with regard to the
file. Make sure you're at the top, at the bottom, or you understand
exactly where the previous routine(s) left it, with regard to what the
troublesome routine is attempting.

Occasionally this kind of error indicates a problem in your data, too.
I don't know what you're working with, but if something should be even
(number of quotes/parentheses?) within the data, and it isn't, you can
get a similar result.

Cheers
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From genghis at members.evolt.org  Wed Jun  5 14:23:01 2002
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
In-Reply-To: <02a301c20cbf$9c42b720$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAEEGAEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Mike Rudberg
> Sent: 05 June 2002 19:17
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Email List Software
>
>
> I stand (sit?) corrected, Simon.  However, since I try to give windoze a
> wide berth (unless gun is pointed at my head), I tend to forget
> such things.
> This is also true (about the Window Binary) for Perl for Windows.
> Difference there, though, is the binary has cost attached to it.
> The source
> is Open Source.

Again, completely incorrect.  Sorry :-)

http://www.activestate.com/Products/Download/Get.plex?id=ActivePerl

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

From webguy at mail.rit.edu  Wed Jun  5 14:24:11 2002
From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:24:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
In-Reply-To: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE09C8A1@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com>
Message-ID: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJEEDOCHAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>

Janet-

I'm positive you won't be able to accomplish this unless you embed the HTML
in the document (email) itself, which means you'd have to have an
HTML-compatible email client on the other end to receive said document for
it to display properly.

hth!

Chris Blessing
webguy at mail.rit.edu
http://www.330i.net

> Ok I give up and need some help. A colleague asked me how to
> write a link in the body of an email message so that it
> *displays* like a link in an HTML document (i.e., with a
> clickable "phrase" for the link instead of the long/ugly URL
> displayed). I've sent myself test messages in Outlook in the
> three available formats under Options... Mail Format (choices are
> "Outlook Rich Text Format," "HTML," and "plain text") They look like this:
>
> <a href="http://www.desmoinesmetro.com">Linking phrase here</a>
>
> but all that's displaying in the received email is the code, no
> matter which format I am in. Can someone just explain how this
> might work and any caveats that come with it?
>
> Thanks...
> Janet
> (Now if I hit "send" and my message appears on thelist with a
> nice little link up there, I'm gonna scream...)

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Wed Jun  5 14:27:03 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] JS slide show script not working in Netscape 6.2
Message-ID: <01d101c20cc6$a1310f00$230ae343@oemcomputer>

I got this js script to allow my page to validate by making it an external .js file and calling it from within the <body> tag. Works fine in NN4.7 and I.E.5.5 PC but, nada, in N6.2.3. I see the status loading bar "fill up" as if it was loading ... but it doesn't.

Could someone check my page out and see if I can find a solution?
http://www.24caratdesign.com/Kendall/html/features.html

Thanks,
Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Wed Jun  5 14:29:01 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:29:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EAB@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

> but all that's displaying in the received email is the code, no matter
which format I am in.
> Can someone just explain how this might work and any caveats that come
with it?

Wild guesses...  In HTML E-mail mode, is there an Insert->Hyperlink?  Can
you select some text and right-click to see if there's an option to make the
text a link?

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Wed Jun  5 14:54:01 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
References: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMGEBKAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <039f01c20cc3$d9f40840$773cfea9@crabnebula>

OK.  I've downloaded the software you've mentioned.  I'll look through it;
however, something just hit me -- is your client for a mail-list software
package, or a bulk mail package.  Reason is that I vaguely remember seeing a
package that actually takes and sends a group of emails with the "from:"
field either blank or filled with "undisclosed" plus it attaches itself to
any smtp server within a given group (does a search on IP addresses, I
think)..   The email list programs I've told you about are more 'ethical'
than that.

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: James S. Huggins (Evolt) <Evolt at ZName.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] Email List Software

>
> Let me attempt to be more specific.
>
> I'm looking for something like this . . .
>
> http://fairlogic.com/worldcast/index.shtml
>
> But more.
>
>
> James S. Huggins
>
>
>
>
> ...
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From jcanfield at magisnetworks.com  Wed Jun  5 14:54:14 2002
From: jcanfield at magisnetworks.com (jcanfield at magisnetworks.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:54:14 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
Message-ID: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14EC9C@grog>

> <a href="http://www.desmoinesmetro.com">Linking phrase here</a>
>
> but all that's displaying in the received email is the code,
> no matter which format I am in. Can someone just explain how
> this might work and any caveats that come with it?

To send HTML as HTML (with Outlook on Windows; no ideas on other
clients/platforms) you need to create the web page, open in in the *browser*
and then choose 'send page by e-mail' to do what you're trying to do.

But if there's an easier way, I'd love to hear it.

joel

From ldelahunty at britstream.com  Wed Jun  5 14:54:26 2002
From: ldelahunty at britstream.com (Liam Delahunty)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:54:26 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Banned words
In-Reply-To: <001601c208a2$978efd90$0100a8c0@jason>
Message-ID: <KIECJFDIGJOFCMFKDEKBCEIBCGAA.ldelahunty@britstream.com>

Jason Cartwright wrote:

>I have thought about this and decided that I can use the banned words
>list to flag the potentially dodgy comments for moderation in the
>backend, whilst still displaying them on the frontend.

>This would eliminate the problem of 'false positives' (such as
>Scunthorpe) yet also minimise the time admins spend on moderation.

>Also - I'll put a 'Report comment' next to the comment on the frontend,
>allowing users to flag dodgy comments.

>> martin.p.burns@*.*.*
>> Yes you can do this, but you need to be a bit careful. Either
>> you can allow users to put swear words inside other words
>> (which defeats the object) or you can search within words (in
>> which case you have situations like blocking people
>> mentioning the *entire* town of Scunthorpe).

Another idea is to count the hits per message as (some) people who swear in
posts tend to do it a lot; so count the banned words and if high don't post
it immediately and flag for admin approval. You could keep a tally for
banned words per IP address which may help a little with repeat offenders,
so you could filter out all posts by certain individuals.

Unless it's a requirement of the project perhaps you might consider a switch
and/or possible options for the filter, so users can see all the messages in
all the gory glory if they chose to, while others may choose a beeped option
(S***thorpe), and the rest only see dodgy messages (such as those containing
Scunthorpe) once they've been approved by the admin.

best,
Liam

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 29/05/2002

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 14:55:20 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 14:55:20 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
In-Reply-To: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE09C8A1@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3CFE096A.23981.19CD52E@localhost>

1. Start a new email message.
2. Click on "View" and make sure "Source Edit" is checked. You should get 3
tabs on the bottom saying: Edit, Source, Preview.
3. Create your message using the Edit tab.
4. Click on the Source tab and manually go in and add your <a
href="somefileorURL"></a> tags to the line of type you want to be a link.

That's all there is to it. It's a good idea while you are in the Source mode to
have a look at the code that is generated and it will explain a lot about how
easy it is to slip some malicious code into HTML email and why HTML email
is not a good thing, except for the people that create crap like Mr. Klez of
course. To find out about what MIME types are about and what else is
behind an email, take any email sent to you in OE, and right click on the
 From/Subject/Recieved line. Click on Properties, then Details, then Message
Source and you will see the "raw" message as a server sees it.

HTH!
MG Web Services
Web Site Hosting and Development
www.markgroen.com
mark at markgroen.com
604-780-6917

From austin at desiremedia.com  Wed Jun  5 15:02:04 2002
From: austin at desiremedia.com (Austin Govella)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:02:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
In-Reply-To:  <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EAB@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <474685C3-78BE-11D6-BDDA-00039381D188@desiremedia.com>

>> but all that's displaying in the received email is the code, no matter
> which format I am in.
>> Can someone just explain how this might work and any caveats that come
> with it?

Perhaps you absolutely must have snazzy lnk text, but most email clients
will highlight links typed in an email message. Combined with the fact
that non-html email clients (or those who have set theirs as such) will
see your html code instead of the pretty link. Because of these two
factors, I usually opt for some descriptive text simply followed by the
url.

This seems to be somewhat of a standard judging from the lists and
newsletters I receive.

I found some tutorials on creating HTML email (which is essentially wehat
you're trying to do). Can't vouch for any of them.

Breaks the process down by common email programs:
http://www.e-mailpro.com/html/

Goes over creation, as well as lists popular clients that can't read HTML
email:
http://www.ivillage.com/click/experts/webwizard/articles/0,5639,167262_61690,
00.html

--
Austin

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Wed Jun  5 15:05:04 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:05:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Looks like I have a virus
In-Reply-To: <E17Ffia-0006ke-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPIEOAFMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

carol,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Techwatcher
>
> Despite the fact that I put a large txt file with VIRUS
> WARNING on his desktop, and tried to warn him several
> times that he was at risk (he uses Outlook Express), my
> father's computer came down with Klez.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

instead of warnings, why not take care of the little configuration issues
that make outlook express unsafe?  in other words, download all the latest
patches, set the security to the restricted zone, etc.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> After I finally figured out how to disabled "Go-back"
> and get his W'98 machine into safe mode, I cleaned it
> for him.
>
>                    THE NEXT MORNING, IT WAS BACK!
>
> So, don't think that little chunk of FixKlez antiviral
> cleanser will keep your machine safe.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it's a cleaner, not a protectant.  are you sure you deleted the email from
outlook express that was infected with klez?  if you didn't and you didn't
tighten down outlook express then viewing that mail would infect the machine
again.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Every time you use non-Web-based e-mail, or non-ASCII
> based e-mail client, or download an attachment, you run
> the risk of reinfection.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

if you haven't taken the necessary precautions, yes.  then the "risk" is
down around the same level as getting hit by a car every time you walk on
the sidewalk.  fwiw, i've been on the net since about 97 and have *never*
gotten a virus while using outlook express or outlook 2k.

so, moral of the story?  don't just clean the machine.  close the holes that
would cause it to get infected again.

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 15:06:01 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:06:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
In-Reply-To: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE09C8A1@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com>
Message-ID: <3CFE0C26.17353.1A782AD@localhost>

> <a href="http://www.desmoinesmetro.com">Linking phrase here</a>
>
> but all that's displaying in the received email is the code, no matter
> which format I am in. Can someone just explain how this might work and
> any caveats that come with it?
>
Easiest way I've found to create links like that is to use the HTML email
setting. The basics:
1. Start a new email message.
2. Click on "View" and make sure "Source Edit" is checked. You should get 3
tabs on the bottom saying: Edit, Source, Preview.
3. Create your message using the Edit tab.
4. Click on the Source tab and manually go in and add your <a
href="somefileorURL"></a> tags to the line of type you want to be a link.

That's about all there is to it in Outlook Express. You can have Outlook
running on your machine and use it for it's calender, notes,  features, etc.
and still use OE for your email if Outlook doesn't do this for you.

HTH!
MG Web Services
Web Site Hosting and Development
www.markgroen.com
mark at markgroen.com
604-780-6917

From Evolt at ZName.com  Wed Jun  5 15:09:07 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:09:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Email List Software
In-Reply-To: <039f01c20cc3$d9f40840$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMAEGCAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

===================
something just hit me -- is your client for a mail-list software
package, or a bulk mail package.  Reason is that I vaguely remember seeing a
package that actually takes and sends a group of emails with the "from:"
field either blank or filled with "undisclosed" plus it attaches itself to
any smtp server within a given group (does a search on IP addresses, I
think)..
===================

The client is looking for a mail-list software package to handle
double-opt-in mailings for ezine mail lists and also to handle responses to
business inquiries. This is not about spam. It is about publishing to email
addresses.

Right now it looks like http://fairlogic.com/worldcast/index.shtml will do
the job. It includes the ability to respond to incoming mail for
subscription/unsubscription and also to "customize" outgoing email (e.g., to
include "account" information, or a personalized greeting)

It's major shortcoming is the ability to handle scheduled follow-up emails.
(For example, these occur when you "subscribe" to a series of "lessons",
then over the next months, you get a "lesson a week".)

For such activitity, http://www.4officeautomation.com/ (the more expensive
$270.00 version) seems to do the job.

But short term (next 12 months), it looks like
http://fairlogic.com/worldcast/index.shtml (at $50.00) will be just fine.

James S. Huggins

...

From ajohnson at purplemountain.net  Wed Jun  5 15:30:03 2002
From: ajohnson at purplemountain.net (Amy Johnson)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
Message-ID: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJMECPCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>

I'm a self taught web designer and, so far, have been able to accommodate all of my clients requests with ASP or PERL.  I see PHP
mentioned a lot on this list.  What advantages does PHP have over ASP or PERL or is it something completely different?

Also what does ASPNet buy me?  My main ISP doesn't support ASPNet and is hesitant to go with it for fear of messing up all their
current ASP sites.

Thanks,
Amy

From ldelahunty at britstream.com  Wed Jun  5 15:34:01 2002
From: ldelahunty at britstream.com (Liam Delahunty)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:34:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMOEKGAGAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <KIECJFDIGJOFCMFKDEKBAEIECGAA.ldelahunty@britstream.com>

James S. Huggins wrote:

<quote>
I am looking for someone who can tell me with some authority whether this
site is "accessible" or not
http://www.lmaeronautics.com/palmdale/lerc/index.html

NOTE: that it requires Flash.
</quote>

Accessibility is not a definitive, there are grades of accessibility. In my
*opinion* this site is not accessible.

I think Nielson has a grading system, check out his site.
http://www.useit.com/.

As the site uses flash and doesn't provide an alternative (even if it's just
a plain text of the catalogue) then it's not accessible to whatever
percentage of people that don't have flash installed, don't have it enabled,
can't use it at work, or don't have the necessary bandwidth to view. Blah
blah, if you aren't too bothered about those people, then there are several
other problems with this site including text resize issues, recognising
links, behaviour of the shopping system* and  interactive elements (forward
and back on pages that don't need them).

* The behaviour of the catalogue is strange (to me) and would fail most (of
my) accessibility tests, lets say you've clicked on a link, on the next page
when you are shown the products one would expect to click on an image for a
closer look, and to click on the number (and just what does that mean to a
customer?), the description or even the price to add to a shopping basket.
If you want people to print off a form, they will need instruction on the
home page to let them know to keep records of what they want.

But accessibility is a wonderful dream that we can only address with a
clients help. If they aren't bothered and would rather have a real cool logo
(and in this example the logo animation is good!) than people using their
site, then as long as you TRY to help them you're doing enough. After all,
you can't build what they won't pay for. Trust me, that way financial ruin
will lie.

Oh, and in childrens items*, baby grows shouldn't have collars, they get
chewed on and covered in vomit.

best,
Liam
(*with a very new, very precious 5 day old baby girl, Maisy.)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 29/05/2002

From mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com  Wed Jun  5 15:38:01 2002
From: mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com (Mark Joslyn)
Date: Wed Jun  5 15:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Links in email
In-Reply-To: <3CFE0C26.17353.1A782AD@localhost>
Message-ID: <005101c20cd0$6e897bf0$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>

I use Outlook to send my emails with links in them. I design the page I want
to send using a simple text editor (HTML) and then save it in my Signatures
file(xxxx.html). Then, I just attach the signature to the document in
Outlook. This seems to work for me.

Thanks,

markJ

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Mark Groen
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:04 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Links in email

HTH!
MG Web Services
Web Site Hosting and Development
www.markgroen.com
mark at markgroen.com
604-780-6917

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  5 16:01:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:01:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Hi Res Screen Grabs for Print
In-Reply-To: <20020605183618.40570.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <a05100307b91d685af8e5@[10.10.8.248]>
Message-ID: <200206052100.g55L0fCN032476@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Robert Goodyear <rob_goodyear at yahoo.com>
>
> ...or if you scale in an image editor, just turn off antialiasing and
> it looks great. Postscript RIPs *hate* images that are not at their
> native resolution, e.g.: scaled in a layout program vs. imported at
> 100%.

i used to say that, until i sent a job to a printer about 7 years ago
that had no problems... thought i'd give it a shot, and it came out
fine... since then, i've done it that way with no issues...

of course, that doesn't mean it isn't possible -- just like using a
compressed TIFF used to eat some of the RIPs locally...

but if you're just printing to a regular printer, most likely it won't be
an issue either way...

scaling without antialiasing never worked to well for me outside of
even multiples of the image... but then, neither did bicubic, so what
the hell do i know...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From slewis at macrovista.net  Wed Jun  5 16:09:01 2002
From: slewis at macrovista.net (Steve Lewis)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ASP response.redirect bug
Message-ID: <3CFE7F07.9080308@macrovista.net>

Hello all, soliciting help for a friend here.

I am completely stumped on this bug, and it appears I am not alone.  We
found 1 other person who has posted on this problem here:
http://www.aewnet.com/newsgroups/rnews.asp?newsid=211735&group=1

The ASP web-application uses Response.Redirect in many places which works
perfectly on Windows based IE 4+ and Netscape 4+ and on Mac Netscape 4+
but intermittently fails on Mac IE 4+.  After following a few links that
redirect (about 5-10 of them) all further calls to redirect fail.  You
can see an example of this (if you use Mac IE 4 or 5) at
http://wms.mncenter.org (a demo site that is currently being configured
using the "Web Management System") -- just click around on the top menu
for awhile and it should start to hang and the little spinning icon
appears.  You can force refresh the page, leave and go to a new site, or
open a new browser and it starts to work again. The team has tried to
isolate the bug and the best guess is that it is due to
response.redirect and not a caching problem or an HTML code bug. Browser
memory settings didn't seem to have any effect either.

Since each web page in the tool set can have a different template, when
you follow a link you go to a special "router" page (viewpage.asp) that
queries the database for the proper page-template match and then
redirects to that template passing the query string along as well.  I
buffer the response and call response.clear right before the redirect.
If I print the new link instead of redirecting there is no problem
(except that you have to follow the new link manually of course) so it
makes me confident that it is not a caching or HTML bug.

The web-server is currently IIS 4 service pack 6.  We plan to get a
Windows Advanced Server 2000 with IIS 5 up soon but need to do more
testing before moving.  I am aware of the Server.Transfer method but was
under the impression that it only works in IIS 5 and is not available in
IIS 4.

Before I go launching into another long re-coding and debugging exercise
to use Server.Transfer I would like all your feedback and relevant
experience with this problem if any.  Can anyone think of another work
around for Mac IE 4+?

Thank you.

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 16:16:04 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:16:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <KIECJFDIGJOFCMFKDEKBAEIECGAA.ldelahunty@britstream.com>
References: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMOEKGAGAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <3CFE1C6D.5317.1E718E0@localhost>

> James S. Huggins wrote:
>
> <quote>
> I am looking for someone who can tell me with some authority whether
> this site is "accessible" or not
> http://www.lmaeronautics.com/palmdale/lerc/index.html
>
> NOTE: that it requires Flash.
> </quote>

All I get is a big white screen with nothing else, oops I'm half blind and can't
"see" Flash so don't have it turned on. How much "authority" do you need?
Do a little archive search, everything Liam said and many, many others also
regarding Flash and accessibility. If it's got Flash and no alternative it is
simply not accesible IMHO.

The sad part is that I don't see anything on the site when Flash is turned on
that really needs Flash that can't be done with DHTML or JavaScript and
regular old HTML. I tried to buy something and clicked everywhere but
nothing happened until I went to the checkout button at the bottom and then
came up against a form that needed to be printed and then snail mailed
along with my sensitive credit card information, which no one in their right
mind would do.

At the very least, create a simple javascript shopping cart that carries the
item numbers/description to the form from some checkboxes or radio buttons
so it's filled in for the customer. Let them email that WITHOUT the CC info
and then the vendor can phone and confirm the order and collect the CC info
at confirmation.

Of course that is not "authorative" and just my opinion along with many other
people so it may not be the answer you were looking for...

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 16:37:01 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:37:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAcKAAAAQAAAAYWpl4Gw5Nk6vBDI48hExlwEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

I'm just running through the latest batch of copyright infringers and
come across this one:

[Original]
http://www.web-designers.co.uk/design.htm

[Copy?]
http://www.ezewebdesign.net/faqs.htm

[Hint]
Check the second heading for a clue!

ROFL!

I owe a tip...

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Richard. H. Morris, Web Designers Limited
~~ http://www.web-designers.co.uk ~~
"I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me
          than a full frontal lobotomy"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 16:49:07 2002
From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:49:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAcKAAAAQAAAAYWpl4Gw5Nk6vBDI48hExlwEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCAECFCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>

are they a sister company per chance?

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Richard H. Morris
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:37
To: 'TheList'
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...

I'm just running through the latest batch of copyright infringers and
come across this one:

[Original]
http://www.web-designers.co.uk/design.htm

[Copy?]
http://www.ezewebdesign.net/faqs.htm

[Hint]
Check the second heading for a clue!

ROFL!

I owe a tip...

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

From pf at cfdev.com  Wed Jun  5 16:54:00 2002
From: pf at cfdev.com (Pete Freitag)
Date: Wed Jun  5 16:54:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
In-Reply-To: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHCEKHCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>
Message-ID: <BNEHJPJGINFFDIDGAICIAEICGMAA.pf@cfdev.com>

If you make a request for /news.asp?article=23432 it will still work the
filter knows not to touch it.  I think what your getting at is a way to
change all your code to the new query string format.  I am sure you could
whip up a regex to do this.  But it's definitely worth doing, we have
increased traffic by over 1000% since making this change (however that's not
a scientific measure because we have also made a lot of other changes, and
added more content).

_____________________________________________
Pete Freitag (pfreitag at cfdev.com)
CTO, CFDEV.COM
ColdFusion Developer Resources
http://www.cfdev.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ken Kogler
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:59 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Safe URL saga

> I recently wrote an ISAPI filter to do search engine URL conversions.
> eg: /page.asp/x/1/y/2 translates into /page.asp?x=1&y=2

> You can find it here: http://www.cfdev.com/products/
> it's free and open source.

Looks like fun! I'll play with it on 127.0.0.1 tonight...

I ask because I'm lazy and don't want to convert all my querystring links to
this new format...

-Ken

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From josh at eaccessit.com  Wed Jun  5 17:05:05 2002
From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:05:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] CF Applet Tags (CFGRID, CFTREE, etc.) Class won't load
Message-ID: <000001c20cdc$65a425b0$c801a8c0@xyz>

Hello,

I am trying to use CFGRID to edit one of my DB tables.  In our office we
have 7 computers.  It will work fine on 4 of them and not at all on 3.

All computers have Java VM installed and enabled.

On the computers that it won't work, all that shows up is a grey box.  I
also get the error allaire.controls.cfGridFormApplet not found.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

"eAccessit.com" One Stop Solutions for your IT problems

From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov  Wed Jun  5 17:11:01 2002
From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:11:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
Message-ID: <C6B2C319C76C7A498CC6AE908EAEC5C30EC7ED@apexch10.rl.gov>

Glad you have a sense of humor about the issue; I imagine many would have
been able to express no emotion but outrage. I especially like this
ripped-off text:

"We'd be dishonest if we didn't acknowledge that anyone who is fairly
computer-literate can write some text and paste some clipart onto a page and
call it a web site. But the problem with that approach is that the code
generated can be very sloppy, incomplete and slow to load."

That's right! Don't hire those losers who just cut and paste stuff and call
it a Web site! Hire Eze Web Design!

*laughing*

Jonathan.

<tip type="CSS" author="Jeduthun">
Are you trying to make your layouts free of tables, but having a tough time
because things don't align all nice and pretty like when you had tables?

Check out the "display," "float," and "clear" properties. They are your
friends. They will become your close companions on the road to XHTML. You
will like them.
</tip>

I'm just running through the latest batch of copyright infringers and
come across this one:

[Original]
http://www.web-designers.co.uk/design.htm

[Copy?]
http://www.ezewebdesign.net/faqs.htm

[Hint]
Check the second heading for a clue!

ROFL!

I owe a tip...

From erick_papadakis at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 17:14:26 2002
From: erick_papadakis at yahoo.com (Erick Papadakis)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:14:26 2002
Subject: [thelist] chinese inside macromedia homesite?
Message-ID: <20020605221308.70278.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com>

does anyone know how i can do this?

thanks/erick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Wed Jun  5 17:15:04 2002
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:15:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
Message-ID: <v02140b0ab9243d4e98bd@[10.41.1.253]>

At 4:13 AM 6/5/2, Mark Groen wrote:
> If it's got Flash and no alternative it is
> simply not accesible IMHO.

Are there particular improvements you'd prefer? If so then we'd like to
hear specific change requests, thanks:
http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/

(Make sure to read the docs first though, so you can get to particulars.)

John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
(Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
Technical daily diary: http://jdmx.blogspot.com/

From don at aspalliance.com  Wed Jun  5 17:19:00 2002
From: don at aspalliance.com (Don Makoviney)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:19:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] ASP response.redirect bug
In-Reply-To: <3CFE7F07.9080308@macrovista.net>
Message-ID: <ANEAKFHAHPGFEPNDEPLDEEPECFAA.don@aspalliance.com>

You said:
"The ASP web-application uses Response.Redirect in many places which works
perfectly on Windows based IE 4+ and Netscape 4+ and on Mac Netscape 4+
but intermittently fails on Mac IE 4+. "

I have run into this problem before too. I have not found any known
workarounds.

What many programmers make a good practice of doing is providing a static
link right after the REDIRECT statement, as well as a RESPONSE.END to stop
the logic of the page from rendering.

Something like the following:

<%
Response.Redirect "yourpage.aspx"
'then, in case that doesn't work
'then provide a static link
<a href='yourpage.aspx'>Click here if this page is not automatically
refreshed.</a>
Response.End
%>

-or-

for reusability purposes you could encapsulate it in a subroutine

<%
Sub REDIRECTOR_CHECKER(url)
	Conn.Close	'because you should close your connections before you leave
anyways, right?!
	Set Conn=Nothing
	Response.Redirect url
	Response.Write("<a href='" & url & "'>Click here if this page does not
automatically redirect you.</a>")
	Response.End
End Sub
%>

I do this, and put it in my include file that includes all reusable
functions like this. That way you just call it like so:

Call REDIRECTOR_CHECKER("mypage.asp")

Hope that helps!

Don Makoviney

MAKOVISION.COM
"Handpicked News For Internet Developers"
http://www.makovision.com/

Get the FREE Newsletter
"Cutting Through The Crap"
http://www.makovision.com/subs/

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Wed Jun  5 17:20:01 2002
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:20:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CF Applet Tags (CFGRID, CFTREE, etc.) Class won't load
Message-ID: <v02140b0cb9243e2dcd2b@[10.41.1.253]>

At 3:00 PM 6/5/2, Josh wrote:
> I am trying to use CFGRID to edit one of my DB tables.  In
> our office we have 7 computers. It will work fine on 4 of them
> and not at all on 3. All computers have Java VM installed and enabled.

Have you compared the Java Virtual Machines in use? There are branding
differences in addition to version differences. It's not as homogenous or
as ubiquitous as the Macromedia Flash Player, which is why those old Java
components are moving to SWF.

The fact that it's working on all machines but one makes it sound like it's
not an implementation issue, but known issues with those Java routines can
be found by a search on "cfgrid" at
http://www.macromedia.com/support/coldfusion/

From mailing.lists at creed.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 17:44:01 2002
From: mailing.lists at creed.co.uk (Andy Warwick)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:44:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAcKAAAAQAAAAYWpl4Gw5Nk6vBDI48hExlwEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <r01050100-0922-0EC6F10078DE11D68B58A68E52F346A4@[192.168.0.101]>

| On 2002/06/05, Richard H. Morris said:

> I'm just running through the latest batch of copyright infringers and
> come across this one:
>
> [Original]
> http://www.web-designers.co.uk/design.htm
>
> [Copy?]
> http://www.ezewebdesign.net/faqs.htm
>
> [Hint]
> Check the second heading for a clue!
>
> ROFL!

I am stunned.

How many is that now Richard? I've lost count.

(I'm also midly courious as to how you find them: tip-offs, or hours spent
searching for blocks of text in the search engines?)

You must be well on the way to the most plagarised site on the Internet.

If I was you, I'd be selling the code and images to the site as an easy-to-use
web site construction kit and give up on the day job...

> I owe a tip...

So do I...

Andy W

From headlemur at clearskymail.com  Wed Jun  5 17:46:02 2002
From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:46:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out
References: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEKECAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>
Message-ID: <3CFE9469.9040907@clearskymail.com>

and it works great!!

From dbaxo at ihug.co.nz  Wed Jun  5 17:49:01 2002
From: dbaxo at ihug.co.nz (Duncan O'Neill)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
Message-ID: <3CFE9683.2050006@ihug.co.nz>

Hi all,

I have a problem with an XML dataset which I've
converted from an Access database using ASP.

The problem is that one of the fields (now an XML
element) contains HTML markup. I've tried both
converting the field into XML both 'raw'
(i.e. within a normal element ) and as CDATA within
that element. Either way, when I try to transform
the XML on the server using XSL & ASP, it comes
out with markup as literals ( i.e. <p> Blah Blah
</p><p>yadda </p> etc).

Short of removing the HTML markup from the 26
original tables, or removing it by hand from the
XML, can someone please suggest a way to get
the HTML markup to function as such? I know I
can do it using ASP's response.write, but it
seems there should be an easier solution.

tia,

=================================================
Duncan O'Neill
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dbaxo/urban_legend.htm
===============================================

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Wed Jun  5 17:52:01 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:52:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EAE@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Duncan O'Neill [mailto:dbaxo at ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 05, 2002 5:54 PM
> To:	The List
> Subject:	[thelist] XML  help please
>
> Short of removing the HTML markup from the 26
> original tables, or removing it by hand from the
> XML, can someone please suggest a way to get
> the HTML markup to function as such? I know I
> can do it using ASP's response.write, but it
> seems there should be an easier solution.

http://www.evolt.org/article/Embed_HTML_in_XML_and_Retrieve_it_with_XSL/17/2
7855/index.html

From judah at wiredotter.com  Wed Jun  5 17:56:03 2002
From: judah at wiredotter.com (Judah McAuley)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
References: <3CFE9683.2050006@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <3CFE9696.50304@wiredotter.com>

Duncan O'Neill wrote:
<snip>
>
> Short of removing the HTML markup from the 26
> original tables, or removing it by hand from the
> XML, can someone please suggest a way to get
> the HTML markup to function as such? I know I
> can do it using ASP's response.write, but it
> seems there should be an easier solution.
</snip>

I'm not an ASP person, but I think you might gain some insight from reading:
http://www.evolt.org/article/Embed_HTML_in_XML_and_Retrieve_it_with_XSL/17/27855/index.html

Published just yesterday.

Judah

From mailing.lists at creed.co.uk  Wed Jun  5 17:59:00 2002
From: mailing.lists at creed.co.uk (Andy Warwick)
Date: Wed Jun  5 17:59:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out
In-Reply-To: <3CFE9469.9040907@clearskymail.com>
Message-ID: <r01050100-0922-18E9EF0078E011D68B58A68E52F346A4@[192.168.0.101]>

| On 2002/06/05, the head lemur said:

> and it works great!!

Though I thought it wasn't at first, hence a timely tip that I owe from the
rip-offs thread...

<tip type="Mozilla, Netscape, Gecko and broken CSS" author="Andy Warwick">
Is Mozilla, Netscape 6 or any Gecko-based browser, not showing your imported CSS
files correctly?

It's more than likely a problem with the file's MIME type because the browser is
in "Strict Mode".

For more details see
<http://developer.netscape.com/evangelism/docs/technotes/incorrect-mime-types/>,
but basically it's because the web server is serving up the CSS file with a MIME
type of "text/plain" rather than "text/css"

The best solution is to get your ISP to change it, though if you are using
Apache you can add the following line to your .htaccess file to fix it.

AddType text/css css

</tip>

From Evolt at ZName.com  Wed Jun  5 18:32:28 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Wed Jun  5 18:32:28 2002
Subject: [thelist] Accessibility Question
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0ab9243d4e98bd@[10.41.1.253]>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIEIPAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

Mark Groen wrote:
If it's got Flash and no alternative it is simply not accesible IMHO.

John Dowdell (from Macromedia) wrote:
Are there particular improvements you'd prefer?
If so then we'd like to hear specific change requests, thanks:
http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/

But is it possible that there is a bigger question.

If I have a website that requires a visitor to download my own (free)
software to view the site, software that that supports all "published
accessibility standards", but without which the site can NOT be viewed, can
that site be deemed "accessible"?

James S. Huggins

...

From genghis at members.evolt.org  Wed Jun  5 18:33:05 2002
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Wed Jun  5 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJMECPCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAGEGKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Amy Johnson
> Sent: 05 June 2002 21:31
> To: TheList
> Subject: [thelist] PHP? ASPNet?
>
> I'm a self taught web designer and, so far, have been able to
> accommodate all of my clients requests with ASP or PERL.  I see PHP
> mentioned a lot on this list.  What advantages does PHP have over
> ASP or PERL or is it something completely different?

It is a completely different thing, but as a web scripting language
it permits (like ASP) you to intermingle code and HTML [unlike ASP
- generally - it also permits you *not* to do that], and it has a
syntax which bears lots of similarities to Perl.

You can (like Perl) also run PHP without spending any money on
either the language or the server software, if that's important
to you.

Start at http://www.php.net and http://www.phpbuilder.com, get a
book and start mucking about, if you're interested in finding out :-)
I'll leave others (Jay?) to suggest which books you could start out
with.

> Also what does ASPNet buy me?  My main ISP doesn't support ASPNet
> and is hesitant to go with it for fear of messing up all their
> current ASP sites.

Generally speaking I'd never make that dramatic an upgrade if
I already had ASP sites which have been paid for... it's just
*asking* for trouble, innit?

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

From cparker at swatgear.com  Wed Jun  5 18:42:01 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Wed Jun  5 18:42:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS - Twice The Fun?
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE07817C@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

> Everybody with me? Good. No matter which template you use,
> you're dealing
> with the same CSS file ("/css/default.css" - creative, huh?).

when would the user not use template A?

since template B is always called from template A then you could assign
the value to a variable like so...

cssFile = "<link ... type=""..."">"

and then in temp B check for the value. if the variable is null or blank
then write the style to template B. if it is NOT null or blank, DON'T
write it to template B.

how about that?
chris.

>
> Finally, the question:
>
> Is it safe (meaning it's not going to create any problems
> that I haven't
> noticed yet) to have the <link> tag in my document twice?
>
> If they use Template A, they get it twice. Once from Template
> A, and once
> from Template B. This hasn't caused any problems I'm aware
> of, but I don't
> want any nasty suprises once this gets off the dev server and onto the
> production one...
>
> Also, the W3C validator doesn't seem to like the <link>
> within the <body>
> (HTML4.01Trans). Any ways around this?
>
> Thanks in advance, folks!
>
> -Ken
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 18:45:01 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 18:45:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0ab9243d4e98bd@[10.41.1.253]>
Message-ID: <3CFE3F50.3612.F5DF9@localhost>

> At 4:13 AM 6/5/2, Mark Groen wrote:
> > If it's got Flash and no alternative it is
> > simply not accesible IMHO.
>
> Are there particular improvements you'd prefer? If so then we'd like
> to hear specific change requests, thanks:
> http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
>
I think that it is all too obvious that with the hiring of Jakob Nielsen, Macromedia is
very much aware of the useablity problems with Flash and this email to the list is a
facetious waste of my time to answer any more than to say look at who you just
hired.

Let's try this again in a different order:
Your question:  Are there particular improvements you'd prefer?
My answer: If it's got Flash and no alternative it is simply not accesible IMHO.

I know you work for Macromedia, but the question to the list was about a particular
site example for which I think I supplied a good answer as this site had no
alternative for those that do not want to use Macromedia's plug-in. I know there is a
script you can use that detects if Flash is installed and in use but this was not in
place on this site. Besides, there was nothing on that site that could not be done
WITHOUT Flash.

From cspruck at mindspring.com  Wed Jun  5 19:02:01 2002
From: cspruck at mindspring.com (cspruck at mindspring.com)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1023321692.0.92187000@webmail.atl.earthlink.net>

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:53:55 +1200 Duncan O'Neill <dbaxo at ihug.co.nz> wrote:
**************************************************
Hi all,

I have a problem with an XML dataset which I've
converted from an Access database using ASP.

The problem is that one of the fields (now an XML element) contains HTML markup. I've tried both converting the field into XML both 'raw' (i.e. within a normal element ) and as CDATA within that element. Either way, when I try to transform the XML on the server using XSL & ASP, it comes out with markup as literals ( i.e. <p> Blah Blah</p><p>yadda </p> etc).

Duncan,

This may be more than you want to deal with, but you could add the HTML tags to your schema and validate the HTML tags as XML, then do the transform. I'm doing that on a project now. This, of course, is only good if you don't have to do tremendous amounts of clean-up in the HTML (also doing on a project now, hehe). Can you post a more detailed description or sample of how you're doing the transform? I couldn't tell if you're doing it with the raw data and just ASP somehow or if you're using an XSLT file in between.

HTH!

Chris

From nassarsa at redconcepts.net  Wed Jun  5 19:08:03 2002
From: nassarsa at redconcepts.net (Samir M. Nassar)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] Accessibility Question
In-Reply-To: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIEIPAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
References: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIEIPAMAB.Evolt@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <1023323044.13358.32.camel@yafa>

> If I have a website that requires a visitor to download my own (free)
> software to view the site, software that that supports all "published
> accessibility standards", but without which the site can NOT be viewed, can
> that site be deemed "accessible"?

Only if the plugin works with every browsers out there and is
installable by everyone on every platform,

Samir M. Nassar
RedConcepts.NET - http://redconcepts.net

From Raymond.Wilson at trimble.co.nz  Wed Jun  5 19:22:01 2002
From: Raymond.Wilson at trimble.co.nz (Raymond Wilson)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:22:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
Message-ID: <30EA867D9991D4118BEA00508B120AB4029F78A5@nz01xch02.trimble.co.nz>

There is an article on the main EVolt web site that deals with including
HTML markup in XML files and dealing with it via XSL translations. It was
posted in the last couple of days so it should be right up near the top...

You may find it useful!

Cheers,

Raymond.

-----Original Message-----
From: cspruck at mindspring.com [mailto:cspruck at mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 12:02 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] XML help please

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 10:53:55 +1200 Duncan O'Neill <dbaxo at ihug.co.nz> wrote:
**************************************************
Hi all,

I have a problem with an XML dataset which I've
converted from an Access database using ASP.

The problem is that one of the fields (now an XML element) contains HTML
markup. I've tried both converting the field into XML both 'raw' (i.e.
within a normal element ) and as CDATA within that element. Either way, when
I try to transform the XML on the server using XSL & ASP, it comes out with
markup as literals ( i.e. <p> Blah Blah</p><p>yadda </p> etc).

Duncan,

This may be more than you want to deal with, but you could add the HTML tags
to your schema and validate the HTML tags as XML, then do the transform. I'm
doing that on a project now. This, of course, is only good if you don't have
to do tremendous amounts of clean-up in the HTML (also doing on a project
now, hehe). Can you post a more detailed description or sample of how you're
doing the transform? I couldn't tell if you're doing it with the raw data
and just ASP somehow or if you're using an XSLT file in between.

HTH!

Chris
--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From codebitch at macedition.com  Wed Jun  5 19:40:01 2002
From: codebitch at macedition.com (CodeBitch)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for
	the count?  
In-Reply-To: <20020604111521.A8FDAC054@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B924EC80.4BCD%codebitch@macedition.com>

"Sharon F. Malone" <sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com> wrote:

>
> So could I "safely" count Netscape 5 results in with the results for Netscape
> 6?

Yes. It might be Mozilla, or Netscape 7 or Galeon, but it will be a
Gecko-based browser, or someone pretending to have one.

>
> Presently TheCounter.com reports 0% of visitors are using Netscape 6 (ah, the
> time I've spent making sure web pages look good in Netscape 6 and we end up
> with 0%!).

Well, that's about 0.6% incorrectly rounded down the way TheCounter.com is
wont to do.  Anyway, 0.6% of their visitors may not be the same as the share
of YOUR visitors. On MacEdition, we average just under 10% of
Mozilla+N6+N7+Chimera.

> But I keep thinking that if AOL comes out soon with N7 as the
> default browser (rather than IE),

Which WILL happen.

>all the time and effort will have paid off.

Yes, it will have done.

>
> I'm approaching this from the viewpoint of explaining these stats a little
> better to a client who uses TheCounter.com's stats reporting.
>

Here's the simple response to them:
"TheCounter.com publishes dubious statistics. They provide no comfort that
browser tags like "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC) Opera 5.0
[en]" are correctly identified as Opera and not MSIE. They include browsers
that stopped working post Y2K (MSIE 1.0), don't identify new browsers for
months (IE6), don't round their percentages properly, and publish no
information on whether and how they exclude search engine spiders and other
robots.  If you don't think excluding bots from your published traffic
claims is important, prepared to be sued:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4205249,00.html
The best statistics for your site are those based on the logs of your own
website. TheCounter.com's are skewed, and likely quite misleading."

Hope that helps.

Regards,
CodeBitch
http://www.macedition.com/cb/

From dbaxo at ihug.co.nz  Wed Jun  5 19:40:11 2002
From: dbaxo at ihug.co.nz (Duncan O'Neill)
Date: Wed Jun  5 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
References: <Springmail.0994.1023321692.0.92187000@webmail.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CFEB034.3020504@ihug.co.nz>

cspruck at mindspring.com wrote:

>
> This may be more than you want to deal with, but you could add the HTML tags to your schema and validate the HTML tags as XML, then do the transform. I'm doing that on a project now. This, of course, is only good if you don't have to do tremendous amounts of clean-up in the HTML (also doing on a project now, hehe). Can you post a more detailed description or sample of how you're doing the transform? I couldn't tell if you're doing it with the raw data and just ASP somehow or if you're using an XSLT file in between.
>
> HTH!
>
> Chris

Chris,

thanks for your reply.

I'm using an ASP file to convert the data in
the Access database to XML.

And then to display it in the webpage, I'm
using another ASP file, which references
both the (now converted) XML file and an
XSLT file.

The relevant bits of the XSLT file (for dealing
with the HTML markup within the XML) are;

<xsl:for-each select="week/person">
  <h3><xsl:value-of select="@nom" /></h3>
  <img align="left" hspace="10"><xsl:attribute
name="src">http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dbaxo/<xsl:value-of
select="img_src" /></xsl:attribute></img>
  <code><xsl:value-of select="quote" /></code>
  <p><xsl:value-of select="bio/cdata()"
disable-output-escaping="yes"/><a href="#top">TOP</a></p>

There are too many HTML tags to go in and strip
them out by hand, so there has to be a better
solution.

thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Duncan O'Neill

=====================================================

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 20:12:01 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 20:12:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for	the count?  
In-Reply-To: <B924EC80.4BCD%codebitch@macedition.com>
References: <20020604111521.A8FDAC054@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3CFE533B.1095.5D314D@localhost>

> > Presently TheCounter.com reports 0% of visitors are using Netscape 6
> > (ah, the time I've spent making sure web pages look good in Netscape
> > 6 and we end up with 0%!).

I get a *ton* of Netscape users to my site, more than IE. Unless I'm reading the log
wrong... Not sure why it comes out like that when so many other logs show IE to
be the favorite. Any one have an idea why or if I'm just interpeting the data wrong?

Have a look at:
http://www.markgroen.com/stats/2002_05.html#browsum

Regards,

Mark

mark at markgroen.com

From Matt at grndwtr.com  Wed Jun  5 20:18:01 2002
From: Matt at grndwtr.com (Matthias Ritzkowski)
Date: Wed Jun  5 20:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] FW: Suse  7.2, Apache SSL
Message-ID: <8179FA78B6D0D111AA53006097B01280383F33@mail1>

OK I figured it out. If anyone needs help with this, I 'd be happy to be
available!
<tip type=duh>
If you need to work with a large configuration file (like httpd.conf) always
make a backup copy before you do anything to it.
This will make it easier to understand mistakes previously made.
</tip>

From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Wed Jun  5 21:03:21 2002
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Wed Jun  5 21:03:21 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for	the count?  
In-Reply-To: <3CFE533B.1095.5D314D@localhost>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNOEMNGPAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

> I get a *ton* of Netscape users to my site, more than IE. Unless
> I'm reading the log
> wrong...

I think you are...

The top UA (Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; Master.com Watchdog as requested))
seems to be a robot (more info:
http://www.master.com/texis/master/app/apps.html , last paragraph)

The second UA (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98)) is Internet
Explorer 6 on Windows 98.

Basically, when you are reading UA strings, the Mozilla/x.x part is usually
a load of bulldust, and the stuff you uwant usually follows it in brackets
(IE6 is Mozilla 4 compatible?, pfft...)

I'm sure there is a tutorial somewhere on the net that can explain such
things better than I, but I couldn't find anything i a quick Google, sorry.

btw. the *real* Netscape/Gecko browsers are:

83: Netscape 6.2.2 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1)
Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2)
64: Netscape 4.78 (Mozilla/4.78 [en] (Win98; U))
37: Galeon 0.12.1 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Galeon; 0.12.1; 590848)) (I *think*
Galeon is based on Gecko...)

HTH

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

[p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

From mark at markgroen.com  Wed Jun  5 21:19:00 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed Jun  5 21:19:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for	the count?  
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNOEMNGPAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>
References: <3CFE533B.1095.5D314D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CFE6370.4875.202B82@localhost>

>
> > I get a *ton* of Netscape users to my site, more than IE. Unless I'm
> > reading the log wrong...
>
> I think you are...
Thanks Lindsay, that explains a lot. I signed up for their service and stopped using
it after a while. I thought by taking out their line of meta code they would drop me
and never got around to actually going back to their site and cancelling. *Doh* Now
just have to wait for that forgotten password to arrive so I can log in and really
cancel.

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Wed Jun  5 22:14:00 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Wed Jun  5 22:14:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out
References: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHMEKECAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org> <3CFE9469.9040907@clearskymail.com>
Message-ID: <3CFECAD6.6030602@cyberfuddle.com>

the head lemur wrote:
> and it works great!!

I notice the "what's new" section of the release notes is strangely
missing.  So... well... has anyone noticed anything, well, *new*?

What changes have been made between 1.0 and RC3?

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Wed Jun  5 22:42:00 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Wed Jun  5 22:42:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP sessions Apache/Windows - SOLVED
In-Reply-To: <001601c20c9f$257fa190$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>
Message-ID: <000901c20d0c$09e29c90$6701a8c0@neonreactor>

> Oh, I am *so* familiar with this problem.. But I haven't been
> able to find a cause yet! I've had the problem show up on
> Apache/Linux, with the same code as the one that was working
> on another Apache/Linux box. Total mystery to me... [/snip]

This problem showing up on Apache/Linux (at the host where the site is
hosted) would really, really suck.

It was troublesome enough on my development machine...

> Check your PHP version. In the latest version GLOBAL
> VARIABLES in php.ini have been defaulted to 'off' instead of
> 'on'.

Thanks Jay, register_globals was set to 'on'

I downloaded and installed PHP 4.2.1, that fixed it.

:)
John Corry

From rachel at cre8d-design.com  Thu Jun  6 00:30:00 2002
From: rachel at cre8d-design.com (Rachel Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Jun  6 00:30:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Opera and external links (via cgi)
In-Reply-To: <000901c20d0c$09e29c90$6701a8c0@neonreactor>
Message-ID: <KEEMIAHKLPCAIPGIMGIMOEJBDDAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>

Hiya,

Anyone able to point out what's going wrong with the external links on
someone's website for me?

http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/

external links work fine in IE/NS not in Opera (6.01) -- e.g. click on
Vincent Flanders and you'll get
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/goto.cgi?hycw&flandersenterpris
es.com/

and then
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/\\flandersenterprises.com/
(i.e. a 404 error)

rather than
http://flandersenterprises.com/

Anyone got any clues?

Thanks muchly,
Rachel

From cspruck at mindspring.com  Thu Jun  6 00:30:24 2002
From: cspruck at mindspring.com (Chris Spruck)
Date: Thu Jun  6 00:30:24 2002
Subject: [thelist] XML  help please
In-Reply-To: <3CFEB034.3020504@ihug.co.nz>
References: <Springmail.0994.1023321692.0.92187000@webmail.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020606005429.01ffe110@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>At 12:43 PM 6/6/02 +1200, Duncan O'Neill wrote:
>The relevant bits of the XSLT file (for dealing
>with the HTML markup within the XML) are;
>
><xsl:for-each select="week/person">
>  <h3><xsl:value-of select="@nom" /></h3>
>  <img align="left" hspace="10"><xsl:attribute name="src">http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dbaxo/<xsl:value-of select="img_src" /></xsl:attribute></img>
>  <code><xsl:value-of select="quote" /></code>
>  <p><xsl:value-of select="bio/cdata()" disable-output-escaping="yes"/><a href="#top">TOP</a></p>

Duncan,

Thanks for the code sample. I did some more digging and have an idea, but may need specifics about the output. Where you use bio/cdata(), I think what might be more appropriate is bio/text(), but depending on how that gets parsed, it might grab the CDATA tags as well. Should get the text value, which, if it includes HTML source, might be OK.

Other than that, I can't tell what else could be wrong with this transform - it compares very closely to one of mine that works like a charm. So I'm clear, your problem is that the output renders like you've done a view source - i.e. you see tags and code where you expect it to just render the HTML itself? Do you see escaped entities like < and so forth or are the tags fully rendered? Any other parts of the above snippet having a problem?

If the text() thing doesn't work, please send a sample of the XML and a sample of the output. Maybe that'll give me or someone else more clues.

Chris

From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 00:30:37 2002
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Thu Jun  6 00:30:37 2002
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 05-JUN-02
Message-ID: <200206060510.g565A2P8018642@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 05-JUN-02

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

News: Nielsen Snipes E-comm Sites, Teams with Macromedia (Author: aardvark)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/1/29138/index.html

Jakob Nielsen, in a busy week, releases a report criticizing
e-commerce sites, and teams up with Macromedia to help them make
Flash 99% less bad.

Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 07:59:11 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:59:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Opera and external links (via cgi)
In-Reply-To: <KEEMIAHKLPCAIPGIMGIMOEJBDDAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <000001c20d1e$260c8590$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

This is just a guess, but doesn't
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/goto.cgi?hycw&flandersenter
prises.com/

Need to be
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/goto.cgi?hycw=flandersenter
prises.com/

(note = sign).

Also, www.site.com/page.cgi? Is a valid link, but anything after that I
think needs to be this format &variable=value.

Hth,
Burhan Khalid

From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 07:59:32 2002
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Thu Jun  6 07:59:32 2002
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 05-JUN-02
Message-ID: <200206060510.g565A2P8018642@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 05-JUN-02

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

News: Nielsen Snipes E-comm Sites, Teams with Macromedia (Author: aardvark)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/1/29138/index.html

Jakob Nielsen, in a busy week, releases a report criticizing
e-commerce sites, and teams up with Macromedia to help them make
Flash 99% less bad.

Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 08:11:29 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:11:29 2002
Subject: [thelist] Microsoft IE Security Hole?
Message-ID: <000001c20d33$8a9a33d0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Just got word of this, and thought I'd pass it along. So far as I know,
there is not patch for it yet.

http://www.solutions.fi/index.cgi/news_2002_06_05?lang=eng

Also reported by AP.

Regards,
Burhan Khalid

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Thu Jun  6 08:11:56 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:11:56 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
Message-ID: <013901c20d36$ef5f7200$c70ae343@oemcomputer>

This is a re-post of a question(s) I threw on the Evolt table on 6/4. No one replied, so I thought I'd try again. Really could use the help. Here 'tis:

Really could use some direction here.

I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then process the credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer and to my client. Once my client receives the payment confirmation he will then generate a customized registration number based on the Buyer's registration name so the number will be completely personalized. Client also will generate a personalized copy of the program using the registration number and also use the registration number as a password to allow the customer to download their personalized copy of the program from Client's web site.

I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what backend stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call the appropriate registration number (User ID #) program for each buyer to download.

I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't know what that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites to see how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I see the code but I don't understand it. Example I found: <form method="get" action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does hscdl mean?

Client thinks he doesn't have to rely on the host for keeping his
transaction records in a database on their server. He thinks this will be
a manual process he will handle, but later he can automate this process on the host server. I think it entails something from the get go involving Perl or PHP and mySQL Doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

Or, I could create a restricted directory and subdirs on the server to which my client could upload each individual program purchased to a specific subdir. I would set up another FTP Session Profile and these instructions could be emailed to the Buyer ... who could then download using FTP, not using the web site. Have already done that with another client so I'm familiar with it. It's the backend stuff I don't know how to do.

Sorry for the length of this question(s)! Am I thinking this through correctly? What about client's thoughts on this? And what in heaven's name does hscdl mean?

Best,
Sharon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 08:12:05 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:12:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCAECFCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAlKzYLdkvw0aTFjxzt+dniQEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Andrew Maynes [andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk] asked in a tongue in cheek
manner:

> -----Original Message-----
> are they a sister company per chance?

Er, no... ~:0)

> [Original]
> http://www.web-designers.co.uk/design.htm
>
> [Copy?]
> http://www.ezewebdesign.net/faqs.htm

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 08:12:18 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:12:18 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <C6B2C319C76C7A498CC6AE908EAEC5C30EC7ED@apexch10.rl.gov>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAPCTu2NMG902KUkN8QUcRcAEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov commented:

> -----Original Message-----
> Glad you have a sense of humor about the issue; I imagine
> many would have
> been able to express no emotion but outrage.

This one I *did* find amusing as the guy simply hasn't made the effort
to even read it first!

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 08:12:39 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:12:39 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <r01050100-0922-0EC6F10078DE11D68B58A68E52F346A4@[192.168.0.101]>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAL2pYXJ8+lECyLvo7MjLRQwEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Andy Warwick [mailing.lists at creed.co.uk] (he of the nicely-designed
site) asked:

> -----Original Message-----
> How many is that now Richard? I've lost count.

Since we started archiving the off-line copies, there've been 29 copies,
either of the text (all or significant parts) or of the whole site (cf
www.phoenix-club.org) and there were quite a few before then.  There are
also a few in addition where they've only used very small portions of
the body copy: we've applied the William Shakespeare/Monkey test to give
them the benefit of the doubt...

> (I'm also midly courious as to how you find them: tip-offs,
> or hours spent
> searching for blocks of text in the search engines?)

See a tip below!

> You must be well on the way to the most plagarised site on
> the Internet.

Not in the slightest: that's reserved for the big boys.  Try looking at
www.pirated-sites.com for some great examples of rip-offs.

> If I was you, I'd be selling the code and images to the site
> as an easy-to-use
> web site construction kit and give up on the day job...

It's already used for that, apparently!

> > I owe a tip...
>
> So do I...

Here's mine:

When writing or coding your site, consider using one of the freebie web
stat./counter providers as rip-off artists sometimes forget to delete
the coding which allows you to find them very easily from the logs.
Secondly, include some peculiar image naming conventions for images for
graphically-intensive sites as an image search on Google or AltaVista
will come up with some hits in time. Thirdly, if you've written the body
copy yourself and you have an archaic turn of phrase or if you simply
include a peculiar phrase or sentence, it is easy to do a web search
every now and again to turn up the copycat sites.  Fourthly, use a
particular expression in your HTML either directly or as a comment;
again this easy to search on later.

</tip>

From mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie  Thu Jun  6 08:12:57 2002
From: mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie (Michael Galvin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:12:57 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash detection
Message-ID: <B924F08D.1F85%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>

No doubt a subject matter that has been covered to death here and all over
the web, but I've never been totally happy with any scripts I've found and
used.

I want a flash detection script which will simply determine whether Flash 4
or above is installed.  However, I'd like this to be on a page where the
main content is.  If Flash, load the Flash animation, else load a static gif
file.

I found one a few months back and used it.  It works, but it's so damn slow.
I don't know where I got it from (possibly the MM site), but there's JS and
VBScript in there, and if Flash is not installed, there is a looooong delay
before the page starts loading.  Annoyign to say the least.  Something a
little more haste-filled and future proof would be great.

--
Michael Galvin
source visual thinking

From mahyde at pentact.co.zw  Thu Jun  6 08:13:10 2002
From: mahyde at pentact.co.zw (Mark Hyde (Pentact))
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:13:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
Message-ID: <002001c20d41$427bcc40$e91110ac@w1l2h4>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Warwick" <mailing.lists at creed.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out

> Is Mozilla, Netscape 6 or any Gecko-based browser, not showing your
imported CSS
> files correctly?
>
> It's more than likely a problem with the file's MIME type ..

Dear List members,

I have two almost identical websites at http://www.pentact.co.zw and
http://www.pentact.com.

Both use XHTML and import an external .css stylesheet. The @import command
is used and the browsers render (I believe) in Strict Mode.

pentact.co.zw is hosted by ISP1. The site looks fine and the stylesheet
works in IE6 and Opera 6.0 but when one views it with Netscape 6.2 or
Mozilla 1.0 the site appears with stylesheet not detected.

This sounds as if it could be the incorrect MIME type problem mentioned by
Andy Warwick and I have contacted ISP1 to ask if that is the case.

However, pentact.com, hosted by another ISP which I shall call ISP2, has a
similar but slightly different problem.

Once again, IE6 and Opera 6.0 work perfectly, but the other 2 browsers
produce a completely blank page! Not even the unstyled site.

I have two questions - do others see the same effect? And why could this be
happening?

I am very much a beginner here, so apologies if these are silly questions!

Mark Hyde

From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  6 08:13:56 2002
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:13:56 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the count?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F98WbsAyTabSMv00017eea@hotmail.com>

>I get a *ton* of Netscape users to my site, more than IE. Unless I'm
>reading the log
>wrong... Not sure why it comes out like that when so many other logs show
>IE to
>be the favorite. Any one have an idea why or if I'm just interpeting the
>data wrong?
>
>Have a look at:
>http://www.markgroen.com/stats/2002_05.html#browsum

I suppose it is because you don't exclude spiders

Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; Master.com Watchdog as requested)

is without a doubt some kind of spider. Spiders often mimic browsers (like
Netscape 3, here) to get around badly written server side browser detects.

Advice: ignore NN3 stats completely, assume they're all spiders.

ppk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From luminosity at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 08:17:12 2002
From: luminosity at members.evolt.org (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:17:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] Bobby (was: Accessibility Question)
In-Reply-To: <OFE1FC9006.10E3E31C-ON80256BCF.004FE71C@ema.pwcinternal.com>
References: <OFE1FC9006.10E3E31C-ON80256BCF.004FE71C@ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <1026.139.130.216.191.1023364874.squirrel@members.evolt.org>

>>Martin Burns said:
> I find Bobby useful as a first-pass. My site is all template driven,
> and I *know* the templates are AAA. However, the content I put into the
> templates sometimes suffers typos and rare lapses into laziness.
> Bobby's good at picking up when that happens.
>
> When I'm working on clients' sites, I often find that the place which
> falls down is also the content entered into the CMS by content
> managers.
>
> At one level, this is much easier to deal with, as the accessibility
> principle is already established. Getting Content Managers to actually
> *do* it however can be a bit tricky, as you have to keep checking every
> edit until they grasp it.

Now this got me thinking of a useful web service. It'd be good if you could
have the CMS publish the article to a preview spot (not live...), and get
bobby to check it. Bobby could send back a level of accessiblity (A, AA,
AAA), together with any problems that needed to be solved. The CMS could
determine whether the required level of accessiblity was met, and if not
tell the user what needed to be fixed before the article could be published.
I'm sure Cast could get some funding from organisations that needed the
checks.
Lach
--------------------------------------
http://members.evolt.org/luminosity/
MSN: luminosity @ members.evolt.org
--------------------------------------

From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com  Thu Jun  6 08:17:42 2002
From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:17:42 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
In-Reply-To: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAGEGKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001001c20d59$35245860$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>

[snip]
> I'm a self taught web designer and, so far, have been able to
> accommodate all of my clients requests with ASP or PERL.  I see PHP
> mentioned a lot on this list.  What advantages does PHP have over
> ASP or PERL or is it something completely different?

PHP is very robust and has tons of built-in functions, not to mention an
exhaustive array of extensions that can be added to it. It is open source (a
very good thing IMHO) and continues to improve in speed in functionality.
PHP has native functions for many databases directly and ODBC as well. It
goes hand-in-hand with MySQL, the world's leading open source database.
There are distributions of PHP for most of the known server platforms and
OS's. An example of PHP's completeness/robustness is a built-in file upload
function. You can write a function like this in ASP (there is no native
function for it) or you can purchase a .dll.

All that and it is free!

ASP (which is not really a language, it's a server) is used with VBScript (a
sub set of Visual Basic) usually by default, but can use JScript,
PerlScript, and others. You can run ASP on a *nix server (ChiliSOFT ASP),
but it is native to Windows. ASP.net actually made some what could be
considered non-standard changes to programming languages...sort of a dumbing
down, if you will. (Arrays now start at 1 instead of 0, and other things
such as that.) IIMO that ASP.net will travel the market much as JAVA
has...lots of promise and not much else (and please JAVA junkies and/or
ASP.net gurus, don't flame me for this opinion. It is not necessarily the
technology that is causing the problem...more of the blame can be laid at
the feet of the corporations who quibble over these things every day).

PHP Books...
<watch wraps!>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=15GVH4F0T
4&isbn=0672317842
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=15GVH4F0T
4&isbn=0596000413
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=15GVH4F0T
4&isbn=1861002963
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130893986/qid=1023367472/sr=1-23/ref
=sr_1_23/002-1406742-3769634
</wraps!>

BTW, I am not anti-ASP. I have written many lines of code in VBScript and
PHP over the past couple of years, sometimes switching from one to the other
and back again in the same day depending on the application. If I am allowed
the choice though, I am pro-PHP.

HTH!

Jay

From ken.kogler at cph.org  Thu Jun  6 08:21:02 2002
From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Safe URL saga
In-Reply-To: <BNEHJPJGINFFDIDGAICIAEICGMAA.pf@cfdev.com>
Message-ID: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHCELFCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>

> I am sure you could
> whip up a regex to do this.

You wouldn't happen to have one handy, would you? My regex skills are about
as good as my Mandarin language skills (hint: I don't speak/read/write
Mandarin...)

Thanks either way... the ISAPI filter works great!

-Ken

From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Thu Jun  6 08:24:02 2002
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Opera and external links (via cgi)
In-Reply-To: <KEEMIAHKLPCAIPGIMGIMOEJBDDAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0206060134270.7469-100000@scooter.webservepro.com>

I figured it'd be something funky with the Location: header. There is
somethin funny with it, but not what i expected:

http://www.delorie.com/web/headers.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.healyourchurchwebsite.com%2Fgoto%2F%3Fu%3Dflandersenterprises.com%2F

HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 05:21:42 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) mod_jk mod_bwlimited/1.0 PHP/4.1.1 DAV/1.0.2
mod_log_bytes/0.3 FrontPage/5.0.2.2510 mod_ssl/2.8.4 OpenSSL/0.9.5a
Location: http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/about.shtml
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

yet, no browser i've used follows that Location header to about.shtml.

but maybe this will be helpful in pointing you in the right direction.

hth,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com

On Jun 6, Rachel Cunliffe had something to say about [thelist] Opera and...

>Hiya,
>
>Anyone able to point out what's going wrong with the external links on
>someone's website for me?
>
>http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/
>
>external links work fine in IE/NS not in Opera (6.01) -- e.g. click on
>Vincent Flanders and you'll get
>http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/goto.cgi?hycw&flandersenterpris
>es.com/
>
>and then
>http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/cgi-bin/\\flandersenterprises.com/
>(i.e. a 404 error)
>
>rather than
>http://flandersenterprises.com/
>
>Anyone got any clues?
>
>Thanks muchly,
>Rachel
>

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Thu Jun  6 08:26:42 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:26:42 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EB0@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Mark Hyde (Pentact) [mailto:mahyde at pentact.co.zw]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 06, 2002 5:02 AM
> To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject:	[thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
>
> I have two almost identical websites at http://www.pentact.co.zw and
> http://www.pentact.com.
>
> However, pentact.com, hosted by another ISP which I shall call ISP2, has a
> similar but slightly different problem.
>
> Once again, IE6 and Opera 6.0 work perfectly, but the other 2 browsers
> produce a completely blank page! Not even the unstyled site.

IE6, Opera 6, and Mozilla 1.0 (final) all produce the same (correct) web
page for me... I'm on Win2k, FYI.

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Thu Jun  6 08:32:06 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:32:06 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 4/5/6 - who's on first or who's down for the
 count?
References: <LAW2-F98WbsAyTabSMv00017eea@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CFF6457.1040402@cyberfuddle.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
>
>> I get a *ton* of Netscape users to my site, more than IE. Unless I'm
>> reading the log
>> wrong... Not sure why it comes out like that when so many other logs show
>> IE to
>> be the favorite. Any one have an idea why or if I'm just interpeting the
>> data wrong?
>>
>> Have a look at:
>> http://www.markgroen.com/stats/2002_05.html#browsum
>
> I suppose it is because you don't exclude spiders
>
> Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; Master.com Watchdog as requested)
>
> is without a doubt some kind of spider. Spiders often mimic browsers (like
> Netscape 3, here) to get around badly written server side browser detects.
>
> Advice: ignore NN3 stats completely, assume they're all spiders.

You have a point, but remember that some people still use Netscape
Navigator 3.  I used to use it (back when I used Windows, and before I
stupidly {but accidentally} overwrote it), simply because I liked
Netscape but hated Navigator 4 (this was, obviously, whenever I didn't
feel like waiting on early versions of Mozilla to load, and didn't want
to use Lynx).

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Thu Jun  6 08:34:05 2002
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:34:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash detection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1162NBZjjEgUh00017d74@hotmail.com>

>I want a flash detection script which will simply determine whether Flash 4
>or above is installed.  However, I'd like this to be on a page where the
>main content is.  If Flash, load the Flash animation, else load a static
>gif file.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?flash.html

ppk

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

From d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr  Thu Jun  6 08:34:14 2002
From: d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr (Damelon KIMBROUGH)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:34:14 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAlKzYLdkvw0aTFjxzt+dniQEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4BD8C2CA-7951-11D6-84A3-003065DC204E@wanadoo.fr>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
And the entire situation is made all the more pathetic once this snippet
is read:

> We'd be dishonest if we didn't acknowledge that anyone who is fairly
> computer-literate can write some text and paste some clipart onto a
> page and call it a web site.

This is so f**cking pathetic!

Damelon Kimbrough
Lyon, France
--

From zaunere at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 08:38:04 2002
From: zaunere at yahoo.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:38:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
In-Reply-To: <013901c20d36$ef5f7200$c70ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020606133727.53833.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>

For one, you need to organize your thoughts/process a little better,
and realize that 'hscdl' doesn't mean anything - it's probably just
some script someone wrote.

For what I can see, each of you client's clients (sub client) buys
software from your client, which is personalized in some form for them.
 When they make the purchase, a unique ID is generated - good, this is
all we need.  Now, your client needs to upload the customized software
to his site, and make it available to the sub client - no problem.

Using PHP and MySQL first whip up a little form for your client.  Read
about PHP's handling of file uploads
(http://www.php.net/manual/en/features.file-upload.php or just search
google).  This form will simply let your client select the file he
wants uploaded and the sub client's unique ID.  Make an obscurely named
directory for this uploaded files, then write the file that is uploaded
to the directory, changing the name of the uploaded file to the unique
ID (and proper extension).

So where does MySQL come in?  It might not have to.  But if I were you,
I'd store metadata in MySQL (ie, original filename uploaded, when it
was uploaded, size, unique id used, etc) that might come in handy at
some point for account tracking, billing, whatever.

Now, when the sub client needs to download their software, just point
them to this unique URL.  If you do a good job generating the unique
ID, things should hold up well.

This is not the best/most secure/feature rich/ way of doing this, and
there are many variations even on this scheme of doing it.  However, it
is the simplest, and should get you started.

Hope this helped,

Hans Z.
New York PHP
http://nyphp.org

--- "Sharon F. Malone" <sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com> wrote:
> This is a re-post of a question(s) I threw on the Evolt table on 6/4.
> No one replied, so I thought I'd try again. Really could use the
> help. Here 'tis:
>
> Really could use some direction here.
>
>  I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell
> software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will
> then process the credit card information, send a confirming email to
> Buyer and to my client. Once my client receives the payment
> confirmation he will then generate a customized registration number
> based on the Buyer's registration name so the number will be
> completely personalized. Client also will generate a personalized
> copy of the program using the registration number and also use the
> registration number as a password to allow the customer to download
> their personalized copy of the program from Client's web site.
>
> I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and
> buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what
> backend stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call
> the appropriate registration number (User ID #) program for each
> buyer to download.
>
> I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't
> know what that something consists of. I was looking at some other
> sites to see how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I
> see the code but I don't understand it. Example I found: <form
> method="get" action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does
> hscdl mean?
>
> Client thinks he doesn't have to rely on the host for keeping his
> transaction records in a database on their server. He thinks this
> will be
> a manual process he will handle, but later he can automate this
> process on the host server. I think it entails something from the get
> go involving Perl or PHP and mySQL Doesn't make sense to me
> otherwise.
>
> Or, I could create a restricted directory and subdirs on the server
> to which my client could upload each individual program purchased to
> a specific subdir. I would set up another FTP Session Profile and
> these instructions could be emailed to the Buyer ... who could then
> download using FTP, not using the web site. Have already done that
> with another client so I'm familiar with it. It's the backend stuff I
> don't know how to do.
>
> Sorry for the length of this question(s)! Am I thinking this through
> correctly? What about client's thoughts on this? And what in heaven's
> name does hscdl mean?
>
> Best,
> Sharon
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sharon F. Malone
> "web design and Internet writing services"
> http://www.24caratdesign.com
> sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From K_HEYTINK at winebow.com  Thu Jun  6 08:49:04 2002
From: K_HEYTINK at winebow.com (Kathleen Heytink)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:49:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
Message-ID: <06154D6549B7D5119FC100508BB02DED27A809@nj10-exchange.winebow.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard H. Morris [mailto:richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 5:04 AM

> This one I *did* find amusing as the guy simply hasn't made the effort
> to even read it first!

Talk about not making the effort to read ...

Internet Wines and Spirits ripped off a number of pages (text only) from our
site.  They have since edited most of it, but this page in particular had me
LOL -

Here's ours ...
http://www.winebow.com/spirits/Brandy.htm

And here is theirs from the Google cache
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:2hdwL-7OYDEC:www.internetwines.com/spir
its-brandy.html+brandy+internet+wines+spirits&hl=en

If you look at the section on Armagnac, you will see they left in "Winebow
carries two Armagnacs ..." as well as several other references to our site.

<tip type="Web writing">When writing the copy for your web site, mix your
company name in wherever you can.  At least that way, anyone inclined to
steal it will have to read it, or look like a fool.</tip>

From David at softv.net  Thu Jun  6 08:50:03 2002
From: David at softv.net (David at softv.net)
Date: Thu Jun  6 08:50:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
Message-ID: <353A2A1683F6D511B04C0002A551BBB80FAE8A@SOFTVMAIL>

Another thing to keep in mind when comparing the 2 (ASP.NET and PHP), is to
keep in mind that the 2 main langauges that Microsoft wants you to use with
ASP.NET (Visual Basic.NET and C#) are both strongly typed languages. You
must declare each variable as well as it's primitive data type or object
reference. This is a good thing in my opinion, but with Jay on this one, I
prefer to program in PHP! It's much less verbose and faster to develop with.

Dave
http://java.dbmdata.com

From Josh.S.Feingold at irs.gov  Thu Jun  6 09:07:00 2002
From: Josh.S.Feingold at irs.gov (Feingold Josh S)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:07:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] SQL Server Help
Message-ID: <67C18A40A655D3119CDD0004ACE530C60541C28B@chm0010mb01.atsc.irs.gov>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
I am creating a database that has a bunch of tables that are related to each
other.  I have been thrown two errors which I would appreciated help with.

1) When I try to create a relationship between two tables like so:

Table1
	Column_1_1  Primary Key
	Column_1_2
	Column_1_3  Foreign Key  = Column_2_1

Table2
	Column_2_1  Primary Key
	Column_2_2  Primary Key

I get the following error:

"The columns in table 'Table1' do not match an existing primary key or
UNIQUE constraint."

2) When I am try to create a relationship between a number of tables, and
SAVE the relationship I get the following error:

"The total row size (8374) for table 'Table1' exceeds the maximum number of
bytes per row (8060). Rows that exceed the maximum number of bytes will not
be added."

I looked around and found that this second error is a limit that one row can
have column values that exceed 8060 bytes.  Table1 doesn't have anywhere
near the upper limit, so I am left to guess that the relationship makes it
that the two tables are viewed as one.  Is this correct, and if so, how else
can I achieve normalization?

Thanks for your help.

Josh

From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 09:07:11 2002
From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:07:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
In-Reply-To: <013901c20d36$ef5f7200$c70ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOEDHCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>

Sharon

I would suggest to your boss that he puts his or her hand in his or her pocket
and wave a wad of notes in the region of about ?3k to someone who can provide
this solution for you both ;D

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Sharon F. Malone
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 09:49
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from
a web site - REPOST

This is a re-post of a question(s) I threw on the Evolt table on 6/4. No one
replied, so I thought I'd try again. Really could use the help. Here 'tis:

Really could use some direction here.

I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell software
online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then process the
credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer and to my client. Once
my client receives the payment confirmation he will then generate a customized
registration number based on the Buyer's registration name so the number will be
completely personalized. Client also will generate a personalized copy of the
program using the registration number and also use the registration number as a
password to allow the customer to download their personalized copy of the
program from Client's web site.

I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and buyer's
User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what backend stuff needs to
be set up to hold this information and call the appropriate registration number
(User ID #) program for each buyer to download.

I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't know what
that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites to see how folks
did this and that's where I got the code. I see the code but I don't understand
it. Example I found: <form method="get"
action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does hscdl mean?

Client thinks he doesn't have to rely on the host for keeping his
transaction records in a database on their server. He thinks this will be
a manual process he will handle, but later he can automate this process on the
host server. I think it entails something from the get go involving Perl or PHP
and mySQL Doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

Or, I could create a restricted directory and subdirs on the server to which my
client could upload each individual program purchased to a specific subdir. I
would set up another FTP Session Profile and these instructions could be emailed
to the Buyer ... who could then download using FTP, not using the web site. Have
already done that with another client so I'm familiar with it. It's the backend
stuff I don't know how to do.

Sorry for the length of this question(s)! Am I thinking this through correctly?
What about client's thoughts on this? And what in heaven's name does hscdl mean?

Best,
Sharon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

From webguy at mail.rit.edu  Thu Jun  6 09:18:01 2002
From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] SQL Server Help
In-Reply-To: <67C18A40A655D3119CDD0004ACE530C60541C28B@chm0010mb01.atsc.irs.gov>
Message-ID: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJEEEGCHAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>

Josh-

In enterprise manager, if you right-click on the field Column_1_3 you can go
under the Indexes/Keys tab and click the "Create UNIQUE" checkbox, and
select constraint.  I believe the reason this is necessary is that you have
two fields creating one primary key in the other table (Table2) but just
from looking at it I honestly can't tell you myself.  I'm no rudy that's for
sure. :)

Regarding the 2nd error, do you have any really big varchar fields in
Table1?  If so, try converting them to text fields to see if that helps with
the problem.

HTH!

Chris Blessing
webguy at mail.rit.edu
http://www.330i.net

> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> I am creating a database that has a bunch of tables that are
> related to each
> other.  I have been thrown two errors which I would appreciated help with.
>
> 1) When I try to create a relationship between two tables like so:
>
> Table1
> 	Column_1_1  Primary Key
> 	Column_1_2
> 	Column_1_3  Foreign Key  = Column_2_1
>
> Table2
> 	Column_2_1  Primary Key
> 	Column_2_2  Primary Key
>
> I get the following error:
>
> "The columns in table 'Table1' do not match an existing primary key or
> UNIQUE constraint."
>
> 2) When I am try to create a relationship between a number of tables, and
> SAVE the relationship I get the following error:
>
> "The total row size (8374) for table 'Table1' exceeds the maximum
> number of
> bytes per row (8060). Rows that exceed the maximum number of
> bytes will not
> be added."
>
> I looked around and found that this second error is a limit that
> one row can
> have column values that exceed 8060 bytes.  Table1 doesn't have anywhere
> near the upper limit, so I am left to guess that the relationship makes it
> that the two tables are viewed as one.  Is this correct, and if
> so, how else
> can I achieve normalization?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Josh

From mike at combsnet.com  Thu Jun  6 09:24:00 2002
From: mike at combsnet.com (Mike Combs)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:24:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Dreamweaver & keywords tip
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606100514.02940660@pop.quallaby.com>

Until today, it just killed me that Dreamweaver supports templates, but
then doesn't allow you to have different keyword and description meta tags
for each page on my site.  If I can have a different title for each page,
would it be so tough to allow a different keyword tag?

I was just about to post the question here when I realized:

<tip type="When to use Google" author="Mike Combs">
Can't figure something out?  Ready to post a question to the Evolt mailing
list?

Just after you've formulated the question, take a second to search
Google.  The keywords you need will be clearer to you, and you'll likely
find the answer.  This will save you time and maybe a bit of pride.
</tip>

<tip type="Dreamweaver templates and keyword meta tags" author="Mike Combs">
Dreamweaver templates are a good way to control the design of a large
number of pages, but they don't automatically allow you to have a unique
keyword or description tag for each page.  These fields can be important
for search engines.

Simply put those meta tags into editable fields.  You can find details on
this web page:
http://www.devahelp.com/support/technotes_index2.htm
</tip>

Mike Combs
"Wiring the Batcave"
mike at combsnet.com
http://www.CombsNet.com
http://www.GothamCityUSA.com

Yahoo Messenger: http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=mcombs64

From Amazon.Paulo at Amazoniacelular.com.br  Thu Jun  6 09:26:05 2002
From: Amazon.Paulo at Amazoniacelular.com.br (Amazon Paulo)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:26:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
Message-ID: <8B81473BB9E8D4118E6B0008C7B98AFB08FE76C2@belsc.amazoniacelular.com.br>

>Another thing to keep in mind when comparing the 2 (ASP.NET and PHP), is to
>keep in mind that the 2 main langauges that Microsoft wants you to use with
>ASP.NET (Visual Basic.NET and C#) are both strongly typed languages. You
>must declare each variable as well as it's primitive data type or object
>reference. This is a good thing in my opinion, but with Jay on this one, I
>prefer to program in PHP! It's much less verbose and faster to develop
with.

IMO, the worst problem about ASP (I don't know PHP) is the fact that it
allows the programmer not to declare variables and objects. The fact that
you don't need (and, in fact, cannot) specify the type of a variable is
awful. Error handling is also terrible in VBScript.

I've seen a crowd of bad programmers which never declare a variable, never
know how to handle an error really lost when some problem occurs on their
scripts.

If I would start to program today, I would choose .NET, where these problems
do not exist.

/Paulo Guedes

From Amazon.Paulo at Amazoniacelular.com.br  Thu Jun  6 09:27:17 2002
From: Amazon.Paulo at Amazoniacelular.com.br (Amazon Paulo)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:27:17 2002
Subject: [thelist] ASP response.redirect bug
Message-ID: <8B81473BB9E8D4118E6B0008C7B98AFB08FE7734@belsc.amazoniacelular.com.br>

>Before I go launching into another long re-coding and debugging exercise
>to use Server.Transfer I would like all your feedback and relevant
>experience with this problem if any.  Can anyone think of another work
>around for Mac IE 4+?

Once I had a serious problem with response.redirect. Having no server
workaround, I decided to use a client one.

The old script:
====
Call DoThis
Call DoThat
Call Foo
Response.Redirect "anotherpage.asp?blah=" & strBlah
' End of script
====

The new script:
====
Call DoThis
Call DoThat
Call Foo
%>
<Script language=javascript>
window.location = 'anotherpage.asp?blah=<%=strBlah%>'
</Script>
<%
' End of script
%>

I believe this will work for you, too.

/Paulo Guedes

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 09:35:01 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 09:35:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <4BD8C2CA-7951-11D6-84A3-003065DC204E@wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAs+aoBu3u8UeTivFKuKR2IAEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Damelon KIMBROUGH [d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr] wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> > We'd be dishonest if we didn't acknowledge that anyone who is fairly
> > computer-literate can write some text and paste some clipart onto a
> > page and call it a web site.
>
> This is so f**cking pathetic!

Um, I wrote that...

...and it's true. The worst sites of all are the Microsoft Publisher
ones where the whole page is a single graphic!

If you really want to see the truth in my original bit, take a look at
http://www.netgain.co.uk

From mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com  Thu Jun  6 14:36:19 2002
From: mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com (Mark Joslyn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:36:19 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Permissions (CHMOD)
Message-ID: <008701c20d83$81329d50$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>

I have been messing around trying to set directory settings using the CHMOD
setting on my FTP site.

Here is what I need:
	1.	I want access to do whatever I want in that directory(read, write,
execute).
	2.	I want customers to be able to upload (only) files to that directory.
	3.	I do not want the files in that directory to be listed if my customers
view the directory
	4.	I want the files to be listed when I view that directory.

I have looked at various CHMOD settings, but the only way I can get the
files to be hidden is to remove Read permissions for everyone - even myself.

Can anyone clear this up for me - I am a newbie at UNIX, CHMOD, etc...

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

markJ

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Thu Jun  6 14:36:26 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:36:26 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
References: <20020606133727.53833.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c20d84$909abf60$830ae343@oemcomputer>

It helped ... a whole bunch. Thank you so much, Hans. It is as I suspected not as simple as client thinks it is. Now I can present client with more specifics of what needs to be done...and how.(<8

Sharon
>
> For one, you need to organize your thoughts/process a little better,
> and realize that 'hscdl' doesn't mean anything - it's probably just
> some script someone wrote.
>
> For what I can see, each of you client's clients (sub client) buys
> software from your client, which is personalized in some form for them.
>  When they make the purchase, a unique ID is generated - good, this is
> all we need.  Now, your client needs to upload the customized software
> to his site, and make it available to the sub client - no problem.
>
> Using PHP and MySQL first whip up a little form for your client.  Read
> about PHP's handling of file uploads
> (http://www.php.net/manual/en/features.file-upload.php or just search
> google).  This form will simply let your client select the file he
> wants uploaded and the sub client's unique ID.  Make an obscurely named
> directory for this uploaded files, then write the file that is uploaded
> to the directory, changing the name of the uploaded file to the unique
> ID (and proper extension).
>
> So where does MySQL come in?  It might not have to.  But if I were you,
> I'd store metadata in MySQL (ie, original filename uploaded, when it
> was uploaded, size, unique id used, etc) that might come in handy at
> some point for account tracking, billing, whatever.
>
> Now, when the sub client needs to download their software, just point
> them to this unique URL.  If you do a good job generating the unique
> ID, things should hold up well.
>
> This is not the best/most secure/feature rich/ way of doing this, and
> there are many variations even on this scheme of doing it.  However, it
> is the simplest, and should get you started.
>
> Hope this helped,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From ftarzwell at fayec.com  Thu Jun  6 14:36:39 2002
From: ftarzwell at fayec.com (Flavia Tarzwell (FayeC))
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:36:39 2002
Subject: [thelist] Up and down video resolution standards
Message-ID: <3CFFB329.2040304@fayec.com>

Default resolution for web design has been discussed many times before.
Some are fond of knowing your target audience and then designing static
sites having them in mind, others are adept of liquid design which would
fit all resolutions.
One thing has been left out though....in the past 3-4 years we have seen
the use of  640X480 resolution going down and we started designing pages
for 800X600 resolutions and some are going up to 1024X768. While a
liquid design would still fit from the 640X480 and up we still need to
keep in mind that graphics need to look as good on a low resolution than
on high....
With the increase in use of wireless devices (pocket PCs, etc.) and (who
knows if it takes off) WebTv that brings the default minimum area for
web design down to a tiny space....creating tiny graphics is easy but
making them in a way they would still be clear on higher resolutions is
a graphic designer's nightmare....
It is the designer's responsability to create pages that will be
cross-browser/cross-platform but what about the resolutions? Should we
also create pages compatible with those mediums? If not then how should
we deal with clients requesting their sites to be viewable on them?
Should we create separate versions for those?
This is just something that crossed my mind while watching a WebTv
commercial last night.....

Cheers,

Flavia Tarzwell (FayeC)

From scotts at rci-nv.com  Thu Jun  6 14:36:48 2002
From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:36:48 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB20@SERVER1>

Speaking of pirated sites, has everyone seen this yet? (from zeldman.com)

http://www.sifindia.com/

I'll let you figure out which site was the original.

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 14:37:02 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <06154D6549B7D5119FC100508BB02DED27A809@nj10-exchange.winebow.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAjNfC3yfVRkaBu9nIHA4raQEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Kathleen Heytink [K_HEYTINK at winebow.com] wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> Talk about not making the effort to read ...
> Here's ours ...
> http://www.winebow.com/spirits/Brandy.htm
>
> And here is theirs from the Google cache

<tip type="Web writing">When writing the copy for your web site, mix
your
company name in wherever you can.  At least that way, anyone inclined to
steal it will have to read it, or look like a fool.</tip>

A good tip.

From michael at tapinternet.com  Thu Jun  6 14:37:09 2002
From: michael at tapinternet.com (Michael Kimsal)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:09 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
References: <8B81473BB9E8D4118E6B0008C7B98AFB08FE76C2@belsc.amazoniacelular.com.br>
Message-ID: <3CFF7401.4090100@tapinternet.com>

Amazon Paulo wrote:

>>Another thing to keep in mind when comparing the 2 (ASP.NET and PHP), is to
>>keep in mind that the 2 main langauges that Microsoft wants you to use with
>>ASP.NET (Visual Basic.NET and C#) are both strongly typed languages. You
>>must declare each variable as well as it's primitive data type or object
>>reference. This is a good thing in my opinion, but with Jay on this one, I
>>prefer to program in PHP! It's much less verbose and faster to develop
>>
>>
>with.
>
>IMO, the worst problem about ASP (I don't know PHP) is the fact that it
>allows the programmer not to declare variables and objects. The fact that
>you don't need (and, in fact, cannot) specify the type of a variable is
>awful. Error handling is also terrible in VBScript.
>
>
Error handling isn't all that great in PHP either, but is sufficient for
most situations.

If you *want* to be told to declare variables in PHP, you can set the
error reporting level
to a high state, and it'll spit out warnings whenever you use an
undeclared variable.  If you
prefer to be able to create variables ad-hoc, without warnings, that's
the default.  *Should*
be enough flexibility to please both camps, but because the warning are
off by default,
most people never know about them.

I've written about ASP/PHP in many forums over the years, and it will
most likely
come down to a religious or pragamatic issue.  If you're already
comfortable with ASP,
probably stick with it.  If you know Perl, PHP isn't too much of
stretch.  However, if you're
used to using a lot of CPAN stuff, PHP may not be for you because a lot
of the
more advanced CPAN modules don't have equivalents in PHP yet.

ASP.net is a step towards ASP taking care of many more mundane issues for
you (web forms, for example) but it seems to me that it may be locking you
in to a specific method of doing 'templating'.  I've not seen any good
examples
about how you'd do a good templating system in ASP (or ASP.net) that
would allow you to switch templates at runtime to accomodate various styles
(high bandwidth, text-only, palmpilot, etc).  If anyone has any good
tutorials on that,
let me know - I'd love to be proved wrong.  :)  PHP, on the other hand,
makes it
very easy with it's 'include' function.  INCLUDES are still not part of
VBScript
after how many years?  You accomplish INCLUDES via SSI, meaning you can't
conditionally include something.  ASP3 somewhat lets you do this with
'server.execute' but it's a strange workaround, imo, and leads to weird
memory usage
issues.

Dunno if that helps much or not.  :)

Michael Kimsal
http://www.logicreate.com
734-480-9961

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Thu Jun  6 14:37:17 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:17 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EB1@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Amazon Paulo [mailto:Amazon.Paulo at Amazoniacelular.com.br]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:16 AM
> To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject:	RE: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
>
> IMO, the worst problem about ASP (I don't know PHP) is the fact that it
> allows the programmer not to declare variables and objects. The fact that
> you don't need (and, in fact, cannot) specify the type of a variable is
> awful. Error handling is also terrible in VBScript.

The simplest solution (and an excellent programming practice):

<tip type="VBScript/ASP" author="Eric Means">
 *Always* make sure to put
<% Option Explicit %>
at the top of each ASP page you write or maintain.  That will force you to
declare variables before using them.  There's still the problem that
variables are untyped (more correctly, all variables are typed as Variants,
which is equally useless), but it's tougher to get around that.  This method
will at least catch misspellings etc.
</tip>

Error handling pretty much does suck in VBScript - but then, it sucks in VB
(pre-.Net) too, so that's no surprise.

From d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr  Thu Jun  6 14:37:23 2002
From: d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr (Damelon KIMBROUGH)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:23 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAs+aoBu3u8UeTivFKuKR2IAEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <70A59D86-7960-11D6-AD81-003065DC204E@wanadoo.fr>

Le jeudi 6 juin 2002, ? 04:34 PM, Richard H. Morris a ?crit :

> Damelon KIMBROUGH [d.kimbrough at wanadoo.fr] wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> We'd be dishonest if we didn't acknowledge that anyone who is fairly
>>> computer-literate can write some text and paste some clipart onto a
>>> page and call it a web site.
>>
>> This is so f**cking pathetic!
>
> Um, I wrote that...

Yes, I guess my insult was not clearly directed. I am not (was not)
saying the content of text blurb is pathetic. I was trying to say that
when you consider that they cut and pasted some text from another site,
that is pathetic (f**cking pathetic). I apologize if I was not clear.

Damelon Kimbrough
Lyon, France

From David at softv.net  Thu Jun  6 14:37:30 2002
From: David at softv.net (David at softv.net)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:30 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
Message-ID: <353A2A1683F6D511B04C0002A551BBB82A516E@SOFTVMAIL>

>> IMO, the worst problem about ASP (I don't know PHP) is the fact that it
>> allows the programmer not to declare variables and objects.

These are very valid points. In ASP (not .NET) one should always, always put
"Option Explicit" at the top of each script to force variable declarations.
You can also do this in
PHP by adding "error_reporting (E_ALL);" at the top of each script. Just
make sure you remove this in a production environment.

Dave
http://java.dbmdata.com

From sam at sam-i-am.com  Thu Jun  6 14:37:42 2002
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:42 2002
Subject: [thelist] (no subject)
References: <20020604134004.77386.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CFF77E0.276CF1E2@sam-i-am.com>

I can't give you an answer, but I can tell you that's not perl, but
VB(script?).

Unless I'm missing something.

Sam

Patty McBride wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
> I trying to get my system to execute a perl script on
> my server for a client.
>
> I am confused because the code I inherited used to
> work on NT 4 but now does not on WIN 2000 Server.
>
> After some discussion with ashok about WSH I reviewed
> my tests and got the following to work:
>
> Dim WshShell
> Set WshShell = CreateObject("WScript.Shell")
> Response.write("WSHshell.CurrentDirectory: " &
> WSHshell.CurrentDirectory)
...

From francois.jordaan at wheel.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 14:37:51 2002
From: francois.jordaan at wheel.co.uk (Francois Jordaan)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:51 2002
Subject: [thelist] MS icons in public domain?
Message-ID: <55ED5FD3B4D2D41193E60002A5090BCD01DBA791@clerkenwell.pres.co>

Does anyone know what the rules are regarding the use of Windows/MS Office
icons in other apps or as design elements on web sites? Can they be
considered in the public domain, or are you liable to being sued, or is it
not a black & white case?

francois

_____________________________________________________________________
This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered
through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit
http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/

From scotts at rci-nv.com  Thu Jun  6 14:37:59 2002
From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:37:59 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB1D@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hyde (Pentact) [mailto:mahyde at pentact.co.zw]
>
> pentact.co.zw is hosted by ISP1. The site looks fine and the
> stylesheet
> works in IE6 and Opera 6.0 but when one views it with Netscape 6.2 or
> Mozilla 1.0 the site appears with stylesheet not detected.
>
> This sounds as if it could be the incorrect MIME type problem
> mentioned by
> Andy Warwick and I have contacted ISP1 to ask if that is the case.

Indeed. Look at:
http://webtools.mozilla.org/web-sniffer/view.cgi?url=http://www.pentact.co.z
w/layout3.css

"Content-type: application/x-pointplus"  Yeesh.

> However, pentact.com, hosted by another ISP which I shall
> call ISP2, has a similar but slightly different problem.
>
> Once again, IE6 and Opera 6.0 work perfectly, but the other 2 browsers
> produce a completely blank page! Not even the unstyled site.

Works perfectly in my Mozilla 1.0. Not sure what could be causing that.

From amccoy at goodmanct.com  Thu Jun  6 14:38:10 2002
From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3360285A7@admin.admin.goodmanct.com>

Kinda makes me want to contact this lame-ass company and tell them,
"Hey, I saw Web Designers Limited mentioned on your site, so I called
them and they gave me a fantastic quote for a new site. Thanks for the
referral!"

Of course, it'd make more of an impact if we *all* did it. ;-)

Gotta admit, that's pretty stupid of them. The web is a much smaller
world than they apparently think it is.

Alan

<tip type="databases">
When restoring a MySQL dump file from one server to another, make sure
to check server versions for potential compatibility problems. Also,
check the .sql file itself for any version-specific strings that might
have been automatically added.
</tip>

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 14:38:22 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:22 2002
Subject: [thelist] [tip] <BReaking Netscape>
In-Reply-To: <200206051830.g55IU4CN026413@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <MHT2VYXLJOKPPEBXR98JDNJA893UP.3cff7f29@DANFASCIA-21>

>> > GOOD = <BR />
>> >
>> > BAD = <BR/>
>> >
>> > </tip>
>>
>> VALID = <br />
>
>also valid = <br/>
>
>space or no space doesn't matter to validity, but case does
>matter...  lowercase is valid...

Schoolboy error... lowercase indeed but the extra space DOES matter, I know that <br/> is technically valid but NS4.7
does not recognise it as a line break... I had to change a whole site worth recently

From ftarzwell at fayec.com  Thu Jun  6 14:38:30 2002
From: ftarzwell at fayec.com (Flavia Tarzwell (FayeC))
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:30 2002
Subject: [thelist] Rip-Offs - You Have to Laugh...
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAs+aoBu3u8UeTivFKuKR2IAEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CFF774F.3030908@fayec.com>

I think what he meant was the irony of him copying that from you and
using it on his site.....which would put him in the "anyone who is
fairly computer-literate" category....;)

<tip author= "FayeC" >
When you need to unrar or unzip a file downloaded from the web (on
windows XP Pro), first scan it with yor anti virus (in my case Norton)
and then if given the green light to proceed, disable the autoprotect
before unzipping the file.
If left running, Norton's autoprotect might cause the files to be shown
as corrupt. If you have had that happen to you, reboot and try the
procedure above. That might solve your corrupt file problem.
</tip>

--
Flavia Tarzwell (FayeC)
Web Designer/Developer
http://www.fayec.com
ftarzwell at fayec.com

From mike.king at redroom.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 14:38:37 2002
From: mike.king at redroom.co.uk (Mike King)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:37 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP?  ASPNet?
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJMECPCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606150618.05cfc308@pop.redroom.co.uk>

At 21:31 05/06/2002, Amy Johnson wrote...

>Also what does ASPNet buy me?

As has been mentioned in Dave's post ASP.NET gives you a strictly typed
language. Some might say it gives you a 'proper' programming language.
It also gives you speed advantages, part-compilation etc. Dave made a
comment about it being verbose and slower to develop with, I'm not sure if
that's really accurate, with the built in form components adding true cross
browser validation is as easy as adding a validation tag:
...
<input runat="server" id="txtRegEx">
<asp:RegularExpressionValidator id="valRegEx" runat="server"
         ControlToValidate = "txtRegEx"
         ValidationExpression = ".*@.*\..*"
         ErrorMessage = "* Your entry is not a valid email address"
         Display = "Dynamic" />*</asp:RegularExpressionValidator>
...

Much quicker than anything I've ever coded in PHP/Perl/ASP before  ;)

There's loads of examples of this sort of thing at http://asp.net/ and
sites linked from there.
I won't go into inheritance, reusability of code and how you can't write
spaghetti code simply because the compiler won't let you. (Which IS a good
thing!)

I'm still only getting my feet wet with ASP.NET but I'm pleased so far.
And, it's made my ASP code better!

>  My main ISP doesn't support ASPNet and is hesitant to go with it for
> fear of messing up all their
>current ASP sites.

If you read the gumf about ASP.NET it runs side-by-side with ASP 3 (you
must be running Win2K >)
The settings for ASP.NET are all done in XML .config files and the current
ASP 3 settings don't interfere.

I've just moved my first .ASP site over to an ASP.NET server and there's
been not even a hint of a problem. You'll only start stumbling if you
rename any files to have a .aspx extension.

Cheers
mk

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 14:38:45 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:45 2002
Subject: [thelist] Browser/platform test please
Message-ID: <A553UQYXED7693Y0834XWU31DA0C.3cff80c3@DANFASCIA-21>

Hi guys,

Could I just borrow your browsers for a minute and ask a few of you to test this site for
me in a range of platforms and browsers. Its a University project so it needs to be very
accessible to all platforms...

http://websb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=1

horrible URL but we'll deal with him later ;-)

Cheers

Dan

From mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com  Thu Jun  6 14:38:52 2002
From: mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com (Mark Joslyn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:52 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Directory Settings (CHMOD)
Message-ID: <006801c20d6f$dcd012f0$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>

I have been messing around trying to set directory settings using the CHMOD
setting on my FTP site.

I have looked at various CHMOD settings, but the only way I can get the
files to be hidden is to remove Read permissions for everyone - even myself.

Can anyone clear this up for me - I am a newbie at UNIX, CHMOD, etc...

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

markJ

From lustig at acsu.buffalo.edu  Thu Jun  6 14:38:59 2002
From: lustig at acsu.buffalo.edu (Jason Lustig)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:38:59 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash question
Message-ID: <1023380631.3cff8c977d1ea@mail2.buffalo.edu>

Hey guys

I'm editing a flash file that someone else put together, because it
linked to a URL and the URL has changed, and we need to update the flash
file. Unfortunately the person who made the flash file isn't working
with us anymore, so we don't have the original source file, only the
.swf file.

I imported the .swf file into flash, and it looks like the import went
well. My question is this: it was a set of images that were linked to
the URL, and I'm trying to get to it, but flash is telling me that
images can't be used as HTTP links, like text can.

Is this something that got screwed up in the import, maybe? I'm thinking
that perhaps it was text in the original version, and that's how it was
linked, but the import changed the characters to graphics.

If this is what happened, how can I fix this? We need to fix the flash
file...

--jason

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Thu Jun  6 14:39:11 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:39:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
References: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOEDHCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001b01c20d84$f830ff40$830ae343@oemcomputer>

ha, ha, ha, well put, Andrew! Curious. How much is 3k pounds sterling in US dollars?

Sharon

> I would suggest to your boss that he puts his or her hand in his or her pocket
> and wave a wad of notes in the region of about ?3k to someone who can provide
> this solution for you both ;D
>
> Andrew
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From david_shadovitz at xontech.com  Thu Jun  6 14:39:19 2002
From: david_shadovitz at xontech.com (David Shadovitz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:39:19 2002
Subject: [thelist] User agent: browser and OS
Message-ID: <3CFF8CB5.27D78028@xontech.com>

A few days ago Matt posted the May '02 stats for evolt.org.  I'm
interested in doing the same for my site, and so I'd like to know his
rules for categorizing the user agent by browser and OS.  You've got to
know what you're doing, since, for example, the user agent for Opera
contains both "MSIE" and "Opera".  Feel free to chime in.

Thanks.
-David

FYI #1: A snippet of Matt's "May 2002 stats for evolt.org" message:
Browsers & OS info:
MSIE-based clients held down the fort with about 71% of requests.
Netscape clients brought home 9.2% while Opera came in with 2.4%.
Konqueror came in with 0.36%.
Windows systems account for 75.4% (99 requests from WindowsCE!)
Mac 4.5%
Unix 3.3% (3% of which is Linux)
WebTV 0.2%
Werd up to the person who's visiting evolt with Atari!

FYI #2: A list of user agents who've visited my site, along with an
attempt to categorize them by browser and OS:
http://members.evolt.org/dshadovi/traffic.cfm#user_agent

From scotts at rci-nv.com  Thu Jun  6 14:39:26 2002
From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:39:26 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB1F@SERVER1>

* Apologies for double-posts. I sent this but haven't seen it come through
yet. *

Indeed. Look at:
http://webtools.mozilla.org/web-sniffer/view.cgi?url=http://www.pentact.co.z
w/layout3.css

"Content-type: application/x-pointplus"  Yeesh. A lot of ISPs used to serve
CSS files as application/x-pointplus, apparently. (Read
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/content-type.html, March 2002 notes)
This is definitely something ISP1 should fix.

Works perfectly in my Mozilla 1.0. Not sure what could be causing that.

From dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org  Thu Jun  6 14:39:45 2002
From: dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org (Dulcie Meatheringham)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:39:45 2002
Subject: [thelist] Calculating Page Size
In-Reply-To: <ONEHJFHBPEMLPAJECIBHOEIHCAAA.ken.kogler@cph.org>
Message-ID: <NGBBJGPHMLCGPLHIBHAAKEEICHAA.dulcie@heritagecommunityfdn.org>

Ken wrote:

>> what i do is use the IE developer tools thingie
>> that shows all theimages on a page... it totals
>> the file sizes at the end...
>
>Right, but what about us who don't have IE5.5? Any other solutions out
>there? I'd rather not have to save a file and all the graphics to my local
>machine to do this.

How about a bookmarklet?

http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/accessibility/bookmarklets.html

Very handy.

Dulcie.
--
Dulcie Meatheringham, Information Systems Manager
dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org
(780) 424-6512 x227
Heritage Community Foundation
http://www.heritagecommunityfdn.org/

From palmer.74 at osu.edu  Thu Jun  6 14:41:01 2002
From: palmer.74 at osu.edu (Sharon Palmer)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:41:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] mailing software
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606153043.0329e9d0@mail.wosu.org>

We are looking for software to handle mailing a monthly email newsletter.
We need email and web form subscription, email unsubscribe,
and handling bounced mail.  There are about 3000 names on the current list.

The software Mailloop was recommended, but this seems more targeted
to sales than to a newsletter and is quite expensive.

I've seen mentions of Worldcast software on this list and it seems to handle
our needs.  Since we are non-profit, it would be free to us.

If you have used either of these packages, or have suggestions
for other suitable software, please let me know.  Thank you.

Sharon Palmer           palmer at wosu.org
The WOSU Stations Computer Center

From atdtxav at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 14:41:12 2002
From: atdtxav at yahoo.com (AtdtXav)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:41:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] javascript: Form validation error?
Message-ID: <20020606194057.40563.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

What's wrong with this picture?  I can't change any form
variable names, which complicates things.  When testing this
locally, it never validates, just errors because it can't find
the servlet.

Help?
Thanks :)
Scott

<head>
function checkform ( form )
{
 // 1
   if (form.region.value == "") {
        alert( "Please enter the region" );
        form.region.focus();
        return false ;
    }
 // 2
    if (form.location.value == "") {
        alert( "Please enter the location." );
        form.location.focus();
        return false ;
    }
// etc
}
</head>
<body>
<FORM enctype="multipart/form-data"  name="fform"
action="/servlet/UploadProcess" method="post" onsubmit="return
checkform(this);">

// details of form

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From webguy at mail.rit.edu  Thu Jun  6 14:43:01 2002
From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:43:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Permissions (CHMOD)
In-Reply-To: <008701c20d83$81329d50$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>
Message-ID: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJOEEKCHAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>

Mark-

It sounds like you might want to make it list/read/write/exec for you, but
only write for customers correct?

Are they actually logging into the shell (via telnet, ssh, etc.) or are you
trying to limit the way the directory is displayed through a web interface
(i.e. web browser)?

I only ask because chmod isn't going to help you if you're talking about
doing this through a web browser.  Otherwise, I imagine you have your
customers in a group so something like "chmod 720 <directory name>" will
give you what you're lookin for.

HTH!

Chris Blessing
webguy at mail.rit.edu
http://www.330i.net

> I have been messing around trying to set directory settings using
> the CHMOD
> setting on my FTP site.
>
> Here is what I need:
> 	1.	I want access to do whatever I want in that
> directory(read, write,
> execute).
> 	2.	I want customers to be able to upload (only) files
> to that directory.
> 	3.	I do not want the files in that directory to be
> listed if my customers
> view the directory
> 	4.	I want the files to be listed when I view that directory.
>
> I have looked at various CHMOD settings, but the only way I can get the
> files to be hidden is to remove Read permissions for everyone -
> even myself.
>
> Can anyone clear this up for me - I am a newbie at UNIX, CHMOD, etc...
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> markJ

From michael at sourcedesign.ie  Thu Jun  6 14:47:01 2002
From: michael at sourcedesign.ie (Michael Galvin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Flash detection
Message-ID: <B9252765.1F93%michael@sourcedesign.ie>

> http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?flash.html

Yep, that's the one I'm currently using.  I don't like the delay if Flash is
not installed at all...

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Thu Jun  6 14:47:07 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:47:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
References: <013901c20d36$ef5f7200$c70ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <081801c20d67$703af5e0$773cfea9@crabnebula>

Whenever you see ".../cgi-bin/someprog" the language used COULD be
anything - as long as the langugae is supported by the web server and (if
you wish to do things as you've seen), the ".htaccess" file must give an
indication of what you want the server to consider OK to execute.  Perl is
used a lot; however, PHP is making a major push forward.  This is primarily
because one has the ability (with PHP) to make a single program file which
would handle the entire generation of the website, including the action(s)
required by any form(s) being used.  Don't misunderstand me, I'm NOT
suggesting that one language is better (or worse) than another one; however,
I am saying each language has its own "upside" and "downside".

MySQL is not a language, per se.  It's a combination of a database engine
and command set which allow for access, management, and manipulation of
single (or multiple) databases.  What I've seen is that PHP is used more and
mnore to create the frontend for MySQL, only because the MySQL - along with
other databases commands are built in, so that both access (to the database)
and web design may be both unified and uniform.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon F. Malone <sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 4:48 AM
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a
web site - REPOST

> This is a re-post of a question(s) I threw on the Evolt table on 6/4. No
one replied, so I thought I'd try again. Really could use the help. Here
'tis:
>
> Really could use some direction here.
>
>  I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell
software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then
process the credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer and to
my client. Once my client receives the payment confirmation he will then
generate a customized registration number based on the Buyer's registration
name so the number will be completely personalized. Client also will
generate a personalized copy of the program using the registration number
and also use the registration number as a password to allow the customer to
download their personalized copy of the program from Client's web site.
>
> I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and
buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what backend
stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call the appropriate
registration number (User ID #) program for each buyer to download.
>
> I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't know
what that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites to see
how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I see the code but I
don't understand it. Example I found: <form method="get"
action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does hscdl mean?
>
> Client thinks he doesn't have to rely on the host for keeping his
> transaction records in a database on their server. He thinks this will be
> a manual process he will handle, but later he can automate this process on
the host server. I think it entails something from the get go involving Perl
or PHP and mySQL Doesn't make sense to me otherwise.
>
> Or, I could create a restricted directory and subdirs on the server to
which my client could upload each individual program purchased to a specific
subdir. I would set up another FTP Session Profile and these instructions
could be emailed to the Buyer ... who could then download using FTP, not
using the web site. Have already done that with another client so I'm
familiar with it. It's the backend stuff I don't know how to do.
>
> Sorry for the length of this question(s)! Am I thinking this through
correctly? What about client's thoughts on this? And what in heaven's name
does hscdl mean?
>
> Best,
> Sharon
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Sharon F. Malone
> "web design and Internet writing services"
> http://www.24caratdesign.com
> sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From chrisg at gsnet.com  Thu Jun  6 14:47:15 2002
From: chrisg at gsnet.com (Chris George)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:47:15 2002
Subject: [thelist] associate links with Mozilla (or whatever) rather than
	IE in OS X
Message-ID: <B924E2F5.74F5%chrisg@gsnet.com>

Hey all -

I was wondering how I'd go about re-associating any links in programs like
Entourage, Mail, Word etc. so they open up in Mozilla (or whatever) instead
of IE under OS X (10.1.5).

Huge TIA!

--
Chris George
Edmonton, Alberta

From mike at combsnet.com  Thu Jun  6 14:51:01 2002
From: mike at combsnet.com (Mike Combs)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:51:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606153533.029a9748@pop.quallaby.com>

I think the topics of Flash usability and accessibility are both
interesting.  It's a matter of knowing your audience, and deciding who
you're going to exclude from the party, or how difficult you're going to
make for them to get in.

Expecting someone to have IE or NetScape in order to gain the benefits of
the basic GUI elements on an intranet might not be unreasonable.  Perhaps
your on-line store will allow blind users on a cell phone to check their
order status, but not surf the Flash-based interactive "design your own
shirt" section.

But I suspect this is the wrong list for discussing Flash at all.  Does
anyone know of an alternative list?

...mike

Mike Combs
"Wiring the Batcave"
mike at combsnet.com
http://www.CombsNet.com
http://www.GothamCityUSA.com

From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Thu Jun  6 14:55:01 2002
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:55:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Browser/platform test please
References: <A553UQYXED7693Y0834XWU31DA0C.3cff80c3@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <3CFFBD45.8AE895C8@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

404... cannot find the host.

> horrible URL but we'll deal with him later ;-)

From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com  Thu Jun  6 14:58:01 2002
From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt)
Date: Thu Jun  6 14:58:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash question
References: <1023380631.3cff8c977d1ea@mail2.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <3CFFBE7B.EFFB92B6@lightbulbpress.com>

are you just selecting the image and trying to fill the "URL" field?
Because that wont work. You need to convert the image to a MovieClip and
then create anClick event that contains the getUrl, or else create a
button, place it over the image, and put the getUrl in the mouseEvent.

.matt

Jason Lustig wrote:

> Hey guys
>
> I'm editing a flash file that someone else put together, because it
> linked to a URL and the URL has changed, and we need to update the flash
> file. Unfortunately the person who made the flash file isn't working
> with us anymore, so we don't have the original source file, only the
> .swf file.
>
> I imported the .swf file into flash, and it looks like the import went
> well. My question is this: it was a set of images that were linked to
> the URL, and I'm trying to get to it, but flash is telling me that
> images can't be used as HTTP links, like text can.
>
> Is this something that got screwed up in the import, maybe? I'm thinking
> that perhaps it was text in the original version, and that's how it was
> linked, but the import changed the characters to graphics.
>
> If this is what happened, how can I fix this? We need to fix the flash
> file...
>
> --jason
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Jun  6 15:00:01 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] SQL Server Help
Message-ID: <01c20d94$159c9760$8e641dd1@rudy>

>  I'm no rudy that's for sure. :)

thanks, chris, that is very kind

josh, your FK error message will make sense if you think of how many unique
values each FK value can refer to

table relationships involving keys are always one-to-many

one "parent/master" row is related to multiple "child/detail" rows

the child/detail row "points to" the parent/master row

so the FK must be in the child/detail row

Table1
     Column_1_1  Primary Key
     Column_1_2
     Column_1_3  Foreign Key  = Column_2_1

Table2
     Column_2_1  Primary Key
     Column_2_2  Primary Key

the way i understand this, you want each record in Table2 to have multiple
related records in Table1

but you cannot declare just Column_2_1 as the target of theTable1 FK (the
database won't let you) because it's not unique

(Column_2_1 is not unique unless either it is the PK by itself, which it's
not, or it has a unique constraint defined on it, which is what your error
message is telling you)

are you sure you have the FK pointing in the right direction?

it's hard to tease much semantic meaning from your column names  ;o)

rudy

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Thu Jun  6 15:03:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:03:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Permissions (CHMOD)
Message-ID: <E17G3SD-0001ly-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

Hi, Mark --

My Web host (PronicSolutions.com -- good guys, very responsive, and not
expensive) tells me that as long as I do NOT put an index file into a
directory, they have the server configured so it automatically does NOT
allow anyone to read the contents of that directory. See if your host
has implemented this same security feature.

Most programs I've placed in as PHP do require 777 (CHMOD everyone to
do everything), but the directory itself can be set to CHMOD 750 or
755 -- no one writes to that directory without a password... Of course,
that's only helpful when the program accesses the datafile in a
subdirectory.

Good luck, and perhaps you need a better Web host?

Cheers --
Carol S.
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

> Message: 15
> From: "Mark Joslyn" <mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:56:36 -0700
> Subject: [thelist] Setting Permissions (CHMOD)
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I have been messing around trying to set directory settings using the
CHMOD
> setting on my FTP site.
>
> Here is what I need:
> 	1.	I want access to do whatever I want in that directory
(read, write,
> execute).
> 	2.	I want customers to be able to upload (only) files to
that directory.
> 	3.	I do not want the files in that directory to be listed
if my customers
> view the directory
> 	4.	I want the files to be listed when I view that
directory.
>
> I have looked at various CHMOD settings, but the only way I can get
the
> files to be hidden is to remove Read permissions for everyone - even
myself.
>
> Can anyone clear this up for me - I am a newbie at UNIX, CHMOD, etc...
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> markJ
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist
>
> Archives: http://lists.evolt.org
>
> End of thelist Digest
>
>

Cheers

From webguy at mail.rit.edu  Thu Jun  6 15:06:01 2002
From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:06:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] SQL Server Help
In-Reply-To: <01c20d94$159c9760$8e641dd1@rudy>
Message-ID: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJEEEOCHAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>

> >  I'm no rudy that's for sure. :)
>
> thanks, chris, that is very kind

Hey I've learned a lot from you for free, so why not repay the favor
whenever possible? :P

<tip type="database backups and maintenance plans" author="Chris Blessing">
Just a friendly reminder folks: BE SURE your databases are being backed up
regularly.  Particularly if you run SQL Server, make sure you have a
maintenance plan running regularly on all of your critical databases and be
sure that no errors are occurring.  You never know when you'll need last
night's backup!
</tip>

Chris Blessing
webguy at mail.rit.edu
http://www.330i.net

From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu  Thu Jun  6 15:07:01 2002
From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
In-Reply-To: <001b01c20d84$f830ff40$830ae343@oemcomputer>
	(sfmalo@24caratdesign.com)
References: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOEDHCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk> <001b01c20d84$f830ff40$830ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <200206062006.QAA10582@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>

three thousand quid is nearly 4400 USD, according to the BBC and a bit of
math--- [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/market_data/default.stm]
shows 1.46 USD/GBP, as of this afternoon.  Actual money-hut conversion rate may
be a bit less.

jswiders

--
Jonathon Isaac Swiderski      jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu
   135 w lorain ocmr 2678 \\ oberlin oh 44074-1081
   home : 900 barton dr \\ ann arbor mi 48105-1232

"What we have to learn to do we learn by doing"
    -- Aristotle, Ethica Nicomachea II (c 325 BC)

From cache at dowebscentral.com  Thu Jun  6 15:09:01 2002
From: cache at dowebscentral.com (Keith)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software
  from a web site - REPOST
In-Reply-To: <013901c20d36$ef5f7200$c70ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606130041.026dae00@dowebscentral.com>

Hi Sharon

Looks to me like you are trying to unnecessarily complicating a simple
proposition. I would not consider any databasing on the server for
transaction records until/unless your client gets to the point of
auto-generating the unique software so the transactions could be automated.
For now your problem is delivery.

First of all, I'd create an htaccess protected directory, let's call it
"downloads" and for example sake give it the username "XYZ" and password
"ABC". Use create_htaccess.cgi and create_htpasswd.cgi to do this. For
example sake let's also assume the unique ID is "2468" and the software is
named "software.zip".

Your client will be generating a unique ID for the unique software and can
FTP that unique software to the server. So, have your client create a
sub-directory inside "downloads" with that unique id number as the
sub-directory name and place the software in that sub-directory. Then email
the buyer the URL
http://XYZ:ABC at thedomain.com/downloads/2468/software.zip

That URL will automatically log through the Basic Authentication and
download the proper file.

That is a medium security setup simply because the username/password
remains constant and the buyer could pass it on to others who could use it
even after your client removes the unique directory. To beef it up a bit
place an index default page inside "downloads" to prevent the server from
displaying an index of the directory's sub-directories and then have your
client delete the ID based sub-directories after the download.

If you want to keep track of when the file was downloaded and do not want
to rely on server logs change the URL to
http://XYZ:ABC at thedomain.com/downloads/2468/download.cgi

where download.cgi is

#!/usr/bin/perl

open(D,">downloaded.txt");

$url = "http://thedomain.com".$ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'};
$url =~ s/\Qdownload.cgi\E/software.zip/;

print "Location: $url\n\n";

That will create an empty file and then redirect to "software.zip". Your
client can see the lastMod date for that file in his FTP client and know
when it was downloaded. Be sure to have your client upload a copy of
download.cgi into each unique directory and give it 0755  and the directory
0777 permissions when he/she uploads the unique software.

There are lots of ways to make this more "elegant" but simplicity has it's
virtues.

keith

cache at dowebscentral.com

From evolt at pixelwright.com  Thu Jun  6 15:23:01 2002
From: evolt at pixelwright.com (James Aylard)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] javascript: Form validation error?
References: <20020606194057.40563.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009a01c20d97$fdd03a20$2860398a@newcos.com>

Scott,

> <head>
> function checkform ( form )
[...]
> }
> </head>

You do have your script within a <script> element, don't you?

James Aylard

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 15:26:01 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:26:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] javascript: Form validation error?
In-Reply-To: <20020606194057.40563.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCECHFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

scott,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: AtdtXav
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
>
> [snip]
>
> <FORM enctype="multipart/form-data"
>       name="fform"
>       action="/servlet/UploadProcess"
>       method="post"
>       onsubmit="return checkform(this);">
>
> // details of form
>
> <input
>  type="image"
>  name="SubmitUpload"
>  src="/images/submit.gif"
>  hspace="0"
>  vspace="0"
>  border="0"
>  onClick='submit();'>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

remove the onclick event handler from your image submit.  the submit()
method causes the form to be submitted without firing the onsubmit event
handler in the <form> tag.  what's more, the onclick event handler is not
supported by some browsers.

here's an article with more info on the submit() method.

Forms & JavaScript Living Together in Harmony
http://evolt.org/article/thelist/17/28553/

good luck,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

From mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com  Thu Jun  6 15:30:01 2002
From: mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com (Mark Joslyn)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:30:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Permissions (CHMOD)
In-Reply-To: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJOEEKCHAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <00a201c20d98$de000ad0$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>

<snip>
Are they actually logging into the shell (via telnet, ssh, etc.) or are you
trying to limit the way the directory is displayed through a web interface
(i.e. web browser)?
</snip>

I have an FTP folder set up with my ISP. Currently, anyone can get
permissions to write to this folder, but they cannot move, copy, delete,
open, view or execute the files once uploaded. Only with a valid username
and password can anyone manipulate the uploaded files. Currently, you can
see all the files in the directory (browser and with WS-FTP). I want the
files to be hidden from the customer -  both in the browser and my
FTP-Client. Is there a way to acheive this? CHMOD does not seem to work.

Thanks,

markJ

From evolt at accessibleinter.net  Thu Jun  6 15:34:01 2002
From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:34:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] associate links with Mozilla (or whatever)
  rather than IE in OS X
In-Reply-To: <B924E2F5.74F5%chrisg@gsnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606133217.00a0ba30@accessibleinter.net>

At 08:59 AM 06/06/2002, Chris George wrote:
>I was wondering how I'd go about re-associating any links in programs like
>Entourage, Mail, Word etc. so they open up in Mozilla (or whatever) instead
>of IE under OS X (10.1.5).

http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/faq/browser.html#2.2

Bill Mason
Accessible Internet
evolt at accessibleinter.net
http://www.accessibleinter.net/

From rachel at cre8d-design.com  Thu Jun  6 15:42:01 2002
From: rachel at cre8d-design.com (Rachel Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:42:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Opera and external links (via cgi)
In-Reply-To: <000901c20d0c$09e29c90$6701a8c0@neonreactor>
Message-ID: <KEEMIAHKLPCAIPGIMGIMEEJJDDAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>

Thanks for the thoughts..

He's changed his code slightly to try and get rid of the problem, but I
think I may know what the deal is..

Could the problem be that the cgi script does not allow you to type in the
address:
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/goto/?u=flandersenterprises.com/

into your browser (i.e. has to come from the server); and if you do, it'll
redirect you to about.shtml?

In IE/Netscape the inbetween link,
http://www.healyourchurchwebsite.com/goto/?u=flandersenterprises.com/
doesn't show up in the address bar, but in Opera it does..

Rachel

From jbauer at mtu.edu  Thu Jun  6 15:48:01 2002
From: jbauer at mtu.edu (Jason Bauer)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:48:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB20@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606164548.09b8a9a0@imap.admin.mtu.edu>

At 12:01 PM 6/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Speaking of pirated sites, has everyone seen this yet? (from zeldman.com)
>
>http://www.sifindia.com/

They even left the evolt's copyright in the code!!

<tip type="XSLT & XPath Function Reference">
There are a lot of XSLT and XPath functions you need to know, and sometimes
remembering all of their names and parameters is difficult. TopXML has a
great page listing all of the functions and their parameters, and examples
of most of them. People working with XSLT should keep this page handy!

http://www.vbxml.com/xsl/xsltref.asp
</tip>

--
Jason Bauer
jbauer at mtu.edu
Michigan Tech Fund
Web Site Coordinator
http://www.mtf.mtu.edu/

From Evolt at ZName.com  Thu Jun  6 15:50:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606153533.029a9748@pop.quallaby.com>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMEEDLANAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

=======================
But I suspect this is the wrong list for discussing Flash at all.
Does anyone know of an alternative list?
=======================

Does anyone know of an alternative list that is not so pro-Flash as to make
any question about the suitability of Flash a moot point?

James S. Huggins

...

From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Thu Jun  6 15:53:01 2002
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:53:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606164548.09b8a9a0@imap.admin.mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <3CFFCB99.BDDC6156@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

Should someone do something about it? Is code copyrighted?

Jason Bauer wrote:
>
> They even left the evolt's copyright in the code!!

From eric.d.means at boeing.com  Thu Jun  6 15:53:12 2002
From: eric.d.means at boeing.com (Means, Eric D)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:53:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
Message-ID: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EB2@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Scott Schrantz [mailto:scotts at rci-nv.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 06, 2002 2:02 PM
> To:	Thelist (E-mail)
> Subject:	[thelist] More copied sites
>
> Speaking of pirated sites, has everyone seen this yet? (from zeldman.com)
>
> http://www.sifindia.com/
>
> I'll let you figure out which site was the original.

The best part is they weren't even clever enough to remove the meta tags
(including, of all things, the copyright meta tag and the css tag (which
points to a distinctively named directory()!

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Thu Jun  6 15:55:01 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Thu Jun  6 15:55:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] mailing software
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606153043.0329e9d0@mail.wosu.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606153043.0329e9d0@mail.wosu.org>
Message-ID: <20020606215535.29d0f27a.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:40:43 -0400
Sharon Palmer <palmer.74 at osu.edu> wrote:

> We are looking for software to handle mailing a monthly email
> newsletter.  We need email and web form subscription, email
> unsubscribe, and handling bounced mail.  There are about 3000 names
> on the current list.

Take a look at this thread:
http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20020603/114196.html

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From gnarly at punkass.com  Thu Jun  6 16:00:01 2002
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
References: <002001c20d41$427bcc40$e91110ac@w1l2h4>
Message-ID: <004101c20d60$fc0df5b0$0100a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hyde (Pentact)" <mahyde at pentact.co.zw>
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)

> Once again, IE6 and Opera 6.0 work perfectly, but the other 2 browsers
> produce a completely blank page! Not even the unstyled site.

What happens if you remove the stylesheet declaratation entirely and try
again?

And does your code validate?

Olly.

From evolt at gmx.net  Thu Jun  6 16:12:01 2002
From: evolt at gmx.net (Gijs van Tulder)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:12:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EB2@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <KNEOKJCOCHEDPIMPAIMIKEAICLAA.evolt@gmx.net>

Another 'good part' is this:
http://www.sifindia.com/webdev.htm
The category-dropdown-list still redirects you to evolt.org.

Also look at the ?-button on the top of the page. It definitely is a helpful
help-page.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Means, Eric D
Sent: donderdag 6 juni 2002 22:49
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] More copied sites

The best part is they weren't even clever enough to remove the meta tags

From pmeeks at email.msn.com  Thu Jun  6 16:16:00 2002
From: pmeeks at email.msn.com (Pat Meeks)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:16:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
References: <9CFB687ADA93234DB835E8E4CA98B928019F6EB2@XCH-STL-07.mw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c20d9f$51216760$7d4983d0@shadow>

> > Speaking of pirated sites, has everyone seen this yet? (from
zeldman.com)
> >
> > http://www.sifindia.com/

I'm wondering if people who steal sites are doing it as a scam...getting
businesses to pay "up front" for sites and then either not delivering or
just stealing another site to sell to the unsuspecting client?

Pat

From richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 16:17:00 2002
From: richard.morris at web-designers.co.uk (Richard H. Morris)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:17:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB20@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAiW1znR7d0RGQfURFU1QAAWKFAAAQAAAAcjupHzTu30qCrHNaY1gv8gEAAAAA@web-designers.co.uk>

Scott Schrantz [scotts at rci-nv.com] wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
http://www.sifindia.com/

> I'll let you figure out which site was the original.

Now, where have I seen that design before? ~:0(

From carole at pixeltable.com  Thu Jun  6 16:17:07 2002
From: carole at pixeltable.com (carole guevin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:17:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <3CFFCB99.BDDC6156@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <EDEEKGOEBENBHEGBEKAJEEOMDJAA.carole@pixeltable.com>

:Should someone do something about it? Is code copyrighted?

As far as intellectual law copyright - the design of a site is the propriety
of the designer unless designer ceded rights to client.  So *validating* a
copyright is using the *design* from a designer and making a template out of
it.

Check here http://pirated-sites.com/ - to view the 2advanced list of
copycats (or deemed copycats)

Here's another example - check http://my.dreamwiz.com/vprince/pds.htm and
check http://netdiver.net/whatsnew.php. Though recently the size of top
graphic and width of the site pages have been resized - this is a copycat of
the my site with exact placement of links - on the page I supplied even the
link treatment is the same - the mini green icon and the background as well
as the palette.  Netdiver logo used seven7 font and was exactly where the
*title* of his page is... anyway - to no avail have we tried contacting the
person.  Though - I'm honored that he thinks my design to be good enough to
be copied... but still there's too many of the original design kept.

From beau at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 16:21:01 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Bookmarklets & IE 6
Message-ID: <000001c20d9f$f4abb4d0$cd71fea9@Cube>

I wanted to get an idea of how some of my sites looked at different
resolutions. To do this, I made a few bookmarklets that look something
like this:

javascript:self.resizeTo(640,480);

I put them in the links bar, organized in a folder called
"Bookmarklets". When I visit a site, then choose the bookmarklet from
the links bar, a new empty 640x480 window opens.

If, however, I do not organize the bookmarklets in a folder called
"Bookmarklets" and just leave them in the links bar, they work fine.

Anyone know of a workaround?

Thanks,

Beau

From pabramow at web.net  Thu Jun  6 16:24:01 2002
From: pabramow at web.net (Peter Abramowicz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:24:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re:  Site check  workskiff.com
References: <B92275B5.3BF8%cvos@netpaths.net>
Message-ID: <08de01c20da0$670f9c80$fb8dcecd@peter>

Hi,

> It seems mozilla is not reading my stylesheet.  This must be happening to
> others - what do the moz specs require for my external stylesheet to be
> noticed?

This may not be a solution but try changing your DTD to just <!DOCTYPE HTML
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML>

PeterA.

From carole at pixeltable.com  Thu Jun  6 16:25:01 2002
From: carole at pixeltable.com (carole guevin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:25:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <3CFFCB99.BDDC6156@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <EDEEKGOEBENBHEGBEKAJCEOODJAA.carole@pixeltable.com>

oh forgot to mention something - how did I find that copycat??? go to this
page http://my.dreamwiz.com/vprince/link.htm
there a listing of links... but *netdiver* is not there right? wrong. use
the CTRL+F - search in page - write netdiver and voila! hum
pretty...suspicious.  wonder why he hid the link ROFL.

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 16:27:00 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:27:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] draggable control bug, the black x thingy
Message-ID: <20020606212618.45899.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been working on this project where I have some draggable controls which are hooked up to some
other stuff. The elements drag and so forth no problem.

But they don't work quite well enough. The problem is that sometimes you get the black "do not
enter" icon when you try to drag -- as if you tried to select some static text and drag it off the
page or something, and the item won't drag. But then you click off and on and it might be fine. Or
even worse, you click off but the mouseUp does not fire and the knob moves as you move your mouse
without the mouse down.

So my question is two-fold: 1) It would be great if someone might make some suggestions on my code
(pasted below). It is dynamic to allow any object that has a class "draggable" to be dragged. In
my actual version, we do have background images instead of colored buttons, but I don't think that
is an issue.

2) Is all drag code like this, is this just "the nature of the beast"? I realize in a sense, HTML
was not made for this sort of thing. I know there are all kinds of DHTML APIs and libraries out
there, but I liked this code because it was terse, and its mostly mine now so its not copyrighted.

I don't want to drag some huge library or api and start over, but if I have to I will I guess.
This only has to work in IE right now so don't bother with cross-browser comments.

Thanks

Tom

--------------------
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<script language="javascript">
/*******************************************************************
/ Mouse functions for dragging controls
/******************************************************************/

function mouseDown(e)
{
	if (event.button != 1) return;	//disable drag with right button

//get object
	elem = event.srcElement

if(elem.className == "draggable")
	{
		knob = elem.style;
		knob.xpos = elem.offsetLeft;
		knob.ypos = elem.offsetTop;
		knob.w = elem.clientWidth;
		knob.h = elem.clientHeight;

//since controls are in a container, we need to find the parent location
		//offsetParent will be troublesome for NN6... (read bust)
		pElement = document.getElementById(elem.id).offsetParent
		pElement.xpos = pElement.offsetLeft;
		pElement.ypos = pElement.offsetTop;

//adjust x,y positions of knob based on container location
		knob.xpos = knob.xpos + pElement.xpos
		knob.ypos = knob.ypos + pElement.ypos

//check for window scroll (should pretty much never happen)
		var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft;
		var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop;

//makes sure you grabbed the knob, sets drag to active
		if ((x > knob.xpos) && (x < knob.xpos + knob.w) && (y > knob.ypos) && (y < knob.ypos + knob.h))
		{
			isActive = true;
			dragObject = knob;
			dragObject.dragOffsetX = x - dragObject.xpos;
		}

// Doesn't seem that we need below code...just drag the thing...
		/*if (isActive == true)
		{
			//keep checking for knob position while dragging?
			if ((x >= dragObject.xpos) && (x <= dragObject.xpos + dragObject.w))
			{
				//where 'x' is on the knob
				dragObject.dragOffsetX = x - dragObject.xpos;
			}
			return false; //cancel drag
		}
		else
		{
			return true;
		}*/
	}
}

function mouseMove(e) {
	var x = event.x;
	var y = event.y;

if (isActive) {

sliderMin = 68;
		sliderMax = 310;

rMoveTo = x - dragObject.dragOffsetX;
			if (rMoveTo > sliderMax) rMoveTo = sliderMax;
			if (rMoveTo < sliderMin) rMoveTo = sliderMin;
		knob.xpos = rMoveTo;

if (knob.xpos > sliderMax) return true;

knob.left = knob.xpos - 5; //5 is the offset of the container
	}
}

function mouseUp(e) {
	var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft;
	var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop;
	isActive = false;
}

function init()
{
   	document.onmousedown = mouseDown
	document.onmousemove = mouseMove
	document.onmouseup = mouseUp
	isActive = false;
}

onload = init;
</script>
</head>

</div>
</body>
</html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From kalos at carolina.rr.com  Thu Jun  6 16:30:02 2002
From: kalos at carolina.rr.com (Benjamin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Setting Permissions
In-Reply-To: <20020606205239.A81E03A33@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606172331.00a91ca8@pop-server.carolina.rr.com>

>I have an FTP folder set up with my ISP. Currently, anyone can get
>permissions to write to this folder, but they cannot move, copy, delete,
>open, view or execute the files once uploaded

Pardon me for saying, but that doesn't sound like the best idea either.
With that scenario (world writable) any script kiddie with a bug up it's
butt could write a small perl script and cram at least a few hundred
MB/hour in your directory. Unless you're locked into this scenario by your
ISP, I'd seriously recommend changing the permissions to only allow
validated users to write to your directory. But then again.. I'm always
more paranoid than needed it seems.

From webwarrior at directionx.com  Thu Jun  6 16:33:01 2002
From: webwarrior at directionx.com (Brendan W. Vittum)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:33:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash question
In-Reply-To: <1023380631.3cff8c977d1ea@mail2.buffalo.edu>
References: <1023380631.3cff8c977d1ea@mail2.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <1skvfukn35bppejubbb8f7q5m2jf1g2jp9@4ax.com>

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:23:51 -0400, you wrote:

jason -=-

a very handy little tool for this:

"...Sometimes you don't have the FLA in the first place, you pay some
designer to do the work and he doesn't hand you the FLA. He disappears
and you can not reach him for a simple change. Other designers say
they'll have to remake the SWF, an expensive ending. "

http://buraks.com/uae/

[not affiliated, just a user.]

=============================================
Brendan W. Vittum                 webwarrior at directionx.com

This email may be confidential and contain commercially
sensitive information.  Only the intended recipient[s] may
access or use it.  If you are not the intended recipient[s]
please delete this email and notify us promptly. We use
virus scanning software but exclude all liability for
viruses or similar in this email or any attachment.

From h.t.d at gmx.de  Thu Jun  6 16:42:01 2002
From: h.t.d at gmx.de (Howard The Duck)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:42:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] chinese inside macromedia homesite?
Message-ID: <3CFFF952.1901.17AE734@localhost>

> does anyone know how i can do this?
>
> thanks/erick

simple - you can't. Homesite has no support for unicode.
try ultraedit (Windows), BBEdit (Mac), vim or (x)emacs (linux) they
have unicode support built in = can create chinese files.
Graphical editors are not my resort, but Mozillas "composer" can
create unicode html files for sure.

hth
Yours
 HTD

From zaunere at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 16:43:01 2002
From: zaunere at yahoo.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu Jun  6 16:43:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl? PHP? mySQL? required to download software from a web site - REPOST
In-Reply-To: <001b01c20d84$f830ff40$830ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020606214247.25000.qmail@web12801.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Sharon F. Malone" <sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com> wrote:
> ha, ha, ha, well put, Andrew! Curious. How much is 3k pounds sterling
> in US dollars?

http://finance.yahoo.com/m5?a=3&s=GBP&t=USD

And as one poster pointed out, you don't even need a database, if you
want to minimize this to its simplest form (either way, it's pretty
simple).  However, it's always nice to plan ahead, and get what data,
when you can.

I could do this for only:

http://finance.yahoo.com/m5?a=100&s=USD&t=GBP&c=0

Hans Z.
New York PHP
http://nyphp.org

>
> Sharon
>
> > I would suggest to your boss that he puts his or her hand in his or
> her pocket
> > and wave a wad of notes in the region of about ?3k to someone who
> can provide
> > this solution for you both ;D
> >
> > Andrew
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sharon F. Malone
> "web design and Internet writing services"
> http://www.24caratdesign.com
> sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:02:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
In-Reply-To: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB1D@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <F779D21D-7998-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 04:27  pm, Scott Schrantz wrote:

>> This sounds as if it could be the incorrect MIME type problem
>> mentioned by
>> Andy Warwick and I have contacted ISP1 to ask if that is the case.
>
> Indeed. Look at:
> http://webtools.mozilla.org/web-
> sniffer/view.cgi?url=http://www.pentact.co.z
> w/layout3.css
>
> "Content-type: application/x-pointplus"  Yeesh.

I had a similar problem, and worked out eventually that I'd got this in
my .htaccess:
AddType text/x-server-parsed-html .fhtml .html .css
because I used to have XSSIs in my css files (along the lines of the
'using a .asp file for your css' as someone mentioned the other day)

Cheers
Martin
_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID:	0xA835CCCB
	martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail:	30 Shandon Place
   tel:	+44 (0)774 063 9985				Edinburgh,
   url:	http://www.easyweb.co.uk			Scotland

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:08:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:08:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
Message-ID: <GA6SQPKKIMG1WJDB64ROWQOLUTSNXS.3cffdcf0@DANFASCIA-21>

Hi guys,

could I borrow your wisdom and range of platforms and ask you all to have
 a peek at this site Im working on please...

It needs to be very accessible and usable since its for a university based project
and they are hot on that stuff, also many people of differing platforms will use it.

http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=1

Cheers, Dan

PS: I know it doesnt all work yet, in progress

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:11:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:11:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606153533.029a9748@pop.quallaby.com>
Message-ID: <2B116569-799A-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 08:47  pm, Mike Combs wrote:

> Expecting someone to have IE or NetScape in order to gain the benefits
> of
> the basic GUI elements on an intranet might not be unreasonable.

True, but that doesn't extend to being able to view non-HTML content.
Remember that most places where there are accessibility laws, they apply
with equal or greater strictness. Some places that don't have specific
accessibility legislation will cover equal opportunities in employment
for disabled people in their employment legislation.

From fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:23:01 2002
From: fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk (fstorr)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <2B116569-799A-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000701c20da8$826e03b0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J>

Flash MX is getting there with the accessibility.

http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/overvi
ew/

http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/faq/

Obviously a vast improvement on what they had before.  I'm not a huge
Flash fan, but I'm starting to warm to it a bit more now.

Francis

From RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org  Thu Jun  6 17:23:07 2002
From: RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org (Rebecca Milot-Bradford)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:23:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
Message-ID: <A33073326362D411B6B900902745F401440953@BARBELL>

>   have a peek at this site Im working on please...

Mostly worked fine with ie 6.0 on windows 2000

exceptions:

-the "next slide" link that I was using to navigate would disappear after I
took one of the little quizzes. It took me a minute to find the other
navigation link.
-page 11 yielded an error - template file not found

Good luck with this project.

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 17:25:00 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:25:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
In-Reply-To: <GA6SQPKKIMG1WJDB64ROWQOLUTSNXS.3cffdcf0@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <000801c20da8$fa0a96e0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

A few thoughts :

1. Give the page a title (shows up Untitled Document).
2. The first slide (introduction) has no next slide icon.
3. There seems to be no slide 11 (although the menu suggests that there
are more slides). I am taking that this is because you are still working
on it and haven't gotten all the slides done.
4. Your main menu | help | credits doesn't work.

Hth,
Burhan

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 17:31:01 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] draggable control bug, the black x thingy
Message-ID: <20020606223050.69894.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com>

(sorry if this is a double post - couldn't tell if it went through or not)

I've been working on this project where I have some draggable controls which are hooked up to some
other stuff. The elements drag and so forth no problem.

I don't want to drag some huge library or api and start over, but if I have to I will I guess.
This only has to work in IE right now so don't bother with cross-browser comments.

Thanks

Tom

function mouseDown(e)
{
	if (event.button != 1) return;	//disable drag with right button

//get object
	elem = event.srcElement

if(elem.className == "draggable")
	{
		knob = elem.style;
		knob.xpos = elem.offsetLeft;
		knob.ypos = elem.offsetTop;
		knob.w = elem.clientWidth;
		knob.h = elem.clientHeight;

//adjust x,y positions of knob based on container location
		knob.xpos = knob.xpos + pElement.xpos
		knob.ypos = knob.ypos + pElement.ypos

//check for window scroll (should pretty much never happen)
		var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft;
		var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop;

function mouseMove(e) {
	var x = event.x;
	var y = event.y;

if (isActive) {

sliderMin = 68;
		sliderMax = 310;

rMoveTo = x - dragObject.dragOffsetX;
			if (rMoveTo > sliderMax) rMoveTo = sliderMax;
			if (rMoveTo < sliderMin) rMoveTo = sliderMin;
		knob.xpos = rMoveTo;

if (knob.xpos > sliderMax) return true;

knob.left = knob.xpos - 5; //5 is the offset of the container
	}
}

function mouseUp(e) {
	var x = event.x + document.body.scrollLeft;
	var y = event.y + document.body.scrollTop;
	isActive = false;
}

function init()
{
   	document.onmousedown = mouseDown
	document.onmousemove = mouseMove
	document.onmouseup = mouseUp
	isActive = false;
}

onload = init;
</script>
</head>

</div>
</body>
</html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 17:31:08 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:31:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606164548.09b8a9a0@imap.admin.mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <000901c20da9$d291a670$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

I suppose you can't blame them, after all, the evolt.org code is
available for free.
http://www.evolt.org/evolt_source_code/index.html

But, it is a blatant copy. I don't know what anyone can do about it.
--Burhan

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Thu Jun  6 17:33:01 2002
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:33:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
Message-ID: <v02140b0ab9259217fb9a@[10.41.1.253]>

At 6:41 AM 6/5/2, Mark Groen wrote:
>> At 4:13 AM 6/5/2, Mark Groen wrote:
>> > If it's got Flash and no alternative it is
>> > simply not accesible IMHO.
>>
>> Are there particular improvements you'd prefer? If so then we'd like
>> to hear specific change requests, thanks:
>> http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
>>
> I think that it is all too obvious that with the hiring of Jakob
> Nielsen, Macromedia is very much aware of the useablity problems
> with Flash and this email to the list is a facetious waste of my
> time to answer any more than to say look at who you just hired.

?? I'm having difficulty making sense of that post, sorry.

(Nielsen was commissioned to write some authoring guidelines for usability,
one of a series of authors hired to advise on usability, and accessibility,
and other design issues.)

I'm serious... if there are specific ways you'd like the app to change so
that you no longer have to issue a blanket condemnation, particularly with
regards to various types of "accessibility",then getting those requests in
to the development team directly seems like it could help all concerned,
thanks in advance.

From cparker at swatgear.com  Thu Jun  6 17:35:04 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:35:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS: Mozilla and NS6.2 not loading stylesheet
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE03300F@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

hi.

for some reason, one that i can't figure out why, mozilla rc3 and nn6.2
are not loading the stylesheet, let alone 90% of the graphics.

what is going on ?

the page works in op6, ie6, and nn4.x (surprisingly!, it still looks
ugly but the sylesheet and graphics load).

any ideas?

does the order in which the stylesheet is loaded in the <head></head>
matter? i'm calling it like this...

it comes aftert the <title></title> tags, just so you know.

thanks,
chris.

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 17:36:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:36:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] associate links with Mozilla (or whatever) rather thanIE in OS X
In-Reply-To: <B924E2F5.74F5%chrisg@gsnet.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c20daa$7fad4b20$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Don't know the specifics about OSX, but in Windows, you can go
Edit --> Preferences --> Advanced --> System. From there you can check
which types are associated with Moz. I would recommend checking the
"Alert me when..." box (I don't know if there is such a thing in OSX).

Hth,
Burhan

-----Original Message-----
Hey all -

I was wondering how I'd go about re-associating any links in programs
like
Entourage, Mail, Word etc. so they open up in Mozilla (or whatever)
instead
of IE under OS X (10.1.5).

Huge TIA!

--
Chris George

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:39:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:39:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
In-Reply-To: <GA6SQPKKIMG1WJDB64ROWQOLUTSNXS.3cffdcf0@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <30C8F67F-799E-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 11:06  pm, Daniel Fascia wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> could I borrow your wisdom and range of platforms and ask you all to
> have
>  a peek at this site Im working on please...
>
> It needs to be very accessible and usable since its for a university
> based project
> and they are hot on that stuff, also many people of differing platforms
> will use it.
>
> http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&
> page=1

Dan

Nice for sighted users (even low-sighted ones).

For non-sighted ones? Could do better.

Needs:
1) Alt texts on all the images, *especially* the logo. Null values for
the spacers
2) <b> change to <strong> or better, <h#>
3) Change the hard-numbered list in the nav to a real ordered list (you
can control the spacing with CSS)
4) Your main content table appears to be an unordered list. Make it one
(you can turn off the bulleting with CSS and also control the background
colour).

I'd also be tempted to have all the top nav links as real text, rather
than images. If you're being *really* picky, then this again is an
unordered list. You can make it appear to be an inline bar and turn off
the bulleting with CSS. And for repeated links like in a nav bar, you
should mark them up with <map title="Navigation Bar"
id="navigation_bar"> or similar to enable users to skip them instead of
having to read them every single time on every single page.

Instructions to do this at
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/practicalcss/ towards the bottom.

Nice work on the next page with the unordered list - some people would
have made this into paragraphs with simple images of the double right
arrows.

Not sure if "next *slide*" is ideal copy... and with the text right next
to it, I'm tempted to put a null alt text on it. At the moment, the link
reads "next slide next slide"

On the Systemic Enquiry page, nice descriptions of the images - would
have been even better if they were semantically *related* to the image,
and separated from each other (rn they run into each other with no
separation). Try having them as separate paragraphs and floating the
image left or right.

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:40:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <000701c20da8$826e03b0$4363989e@DHGQCD0J>
Message-ID: <533CF7D1-799E-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 11:21  pm, fstorr wrote:

> True, but that doesn't extend to being able to view non-HTML content.
> Remember that most places where there are accessibility laws, they apply
> with equal or greater strictness. Some places that don't have specific
> accessibility legislation will cover equal opportunities in employment
> for disabled people in their employment legislation.
>
> __
>
> Flash MX is getting there with the accessibility.
>
> http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/overvi
> ew/
> http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/accessibility/features/flash/faq/
>
> Obviously a vast improvement on what they had before.  I'm not a huge
> Flash fan, but I'm starting to warm to it a bit more now.

Getting better, sure.

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 17:42:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:42:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Question of Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0ab9259217fb9a@[10.41.1.253]>
Message-ID: <8FF48E55-799E-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 11:29  pm, John Dowdell wrote:

> I'm serious... if there are specific ways you'd like the app to change
> so
> that you no longer have to issue a blanket condemnation, particularly
> with
> regards to various types of "accessibility",then getting those requests
> in
> to the development team directly seems like it could help all concerned,
> thanks in advance.

Yes, require the use of all the accessibility features you've built in.
Don't permit an export to swf without them.

From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov  Thu Jun  6 17:42:08 2002
From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:42:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
Message-ID: <C6B2C319C76C7A498CC6AE908EAEC5C30EC7F4@apexch10.rl.gov>

Dan,

browser: Mozilla 1.0
OS: Win 2K Professional

Four quick thoughts/suggestions:

(1) <label> tags. Your quizzes could use them.

<tip type="HTML" author="Jeduthun">
<label> tags are all-around cool: they help non-visual user agents associate
text with form objects, they give visual user agents much bigger targets to
shoot for (instead of a tiny radio button), and they make your Web apps
"act" more like normal apps.

If you don't know how to use them -- it's easy. Give your radio buttons (for
example) an id="myid" attribute, then use <label for="myid"> my radio button
text </label>. Now you can click on the text instead of the button, and see
the text outlined when you have focus on element (on some user agents; try
tabbing to the control).
</tip>

(2) Show me where I am in the slideshow, please, with a cue better than
"Slide X of 15." I want some indication of where I am in the list of slides
itself.

(3) I think it's ironic that some of your ALT tags -- which are most likely
to be rendered on non-visual browsers, where "clicking" isn't possible --
use the phrase "click here." (-:

(4) As others have mentioned -- give the pages titles!

I like your layout -- it's simple, it works, and you use XHTML-transitional
(even if you do resort to layout tables (-;)! Bravo.

--
Jonathan.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Fascia [mailto:danfascia at totalise.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:07 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please

Hi guys,

could I borrow your wisdom and range of platforms and ask you all to have
 a peek at this site Im working on please...

It needs to be very accessible and usable since its for a university based
project
and they are hot on that stuff, also many people of differing platforms will
use it.

http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clini
cal&page=1

Cheers, Dan

PS: I know it doesnt all work yet, in progress

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 17:46:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 17:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Setting Directory Settings (CHMOD)
In-Reply-To: <006801c20d6f$dcd012f0$300aa8c0@Corp.Solimarsystems.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c20dab$e3b369f0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

1.	I want access to do whatever I want in that directory(read,
write,execute).

You can change the owner of the file (only if you are su), so
that you have full 	access to it. See the man page for chown for
more information on this.

2.	I want customers to be able to upload (only) files to that
directory.

If you give only write permissions, I believe this will work.

3.	I do not want the files in that directory to be listed if my
customers view the 	directory.

You will need to configure your webserver so that it doesn't
allow directory 	browsing. That will fix this problem.

4.	I want the files to be listed when I view that directory.

You will have to write login script that will let you view the
files.
      You can have an index.php/asp/cgi/cfm file that will authenticate
(popup a box that 	allows your to enter a username and password).
If authentication is good, it would 	allow you access to the files.

If you can give more information (environment -- webserver, etc.), I
(and others) will be able to give you more specifics.

Hth,
Burhan

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 18:09:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl/PHP/mySQL required to download software?
In-Reply-To: <01e701c20bb3$76a6f560$7e0ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <000c01c20daf$02ff7850$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell
software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then
process the credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer
and to my client. Once my client receives the payment confirmation he
will then generate a customized registration number based on the Buyer's
registration name so the number will be completely personalized. Client
also will generate a personalized copy of the program using the
registration number and also use the registration number as a password
to allow the customer to download their personalized copy of the program
from Client's web site.

I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and
buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what
backend stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call the
appropriate registration number (User ID #) program for each buyer to
download.

Depending on how your client has their setup. It might be as simple as a
csv file which contains the pertinent information.
An example :

buyerEmail | buyerUID | FileLocation

You could then read this information and generate have the browser
download the appropriate file to the user. This is assuming that for
each buyer there is a different file name (which is what I understood
from "client will also generate a personalized copy..."). After you
determine that the file has been downloaded properly, you can delete the
appropriate entry from the csv file.

Another approach would be using a database, with the following structure
:

Buyer Information			UIDList		DLList
-----------------			-------		------
Email (PID)				UID			UID
Name  (optional)			ExpDate		PrgName
UID
PrgLocation

With this structure, you can setup a few SQL statements that will query
the tables for the appropriate information. An additional benefit of the
database setup (there are so many) is that you can generate reports
(based on each customer), and can delete transactions that have already
taken place (so someone can't keep downloading copies, etc.)

I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't
know what that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites
to see how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I see the
code but I don't understand it. Example I found: <form method="get"
action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does hscdl mean?

Don't know about this one -- could mean anything.

Hth,
Burhan

From joel at spinhead.com  Thu Jun  6 18:27:01 2002
From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel Canfield)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
Message-ID: <D0E94826C140C3409057ED957D96AC48021F@ireland.spinhead.com>

I'm trying to do a simple screen cap on my Mac OS9 and paste it to PhotoShop
5.5

Am I correct that Cmd+Shift+3 captures the whole screen, and Cmd+Shift+4 is
the active window?

When I do either, and go to a new PhotoShop document, 'Paste' is greyed out.

Am I missing something obvious?

joel

From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com  Thu Jun  6 18:32:01 2002
From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:32:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
In-Reply-To: <D0E94826C140C3409057ED957D96AC48021F@ireland.spinhead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606182950.03e1aff8@mail.imaginuity.com>

On 06:27 PM 6/6/2002, Joel Canfield said to me:
>I'm trying to do a simple screen cap on my Mac OS9 and paste it to PhotoShop
>5.5
>
>Am I correct that Cmd+Shift+3 captures the whole screen, and Cmd+Shift+4 is
>the active window?

Don't know about Cmd+Shift+4, but Cmd+Shift+3 dumps a PICT file in the main
hard drive called "Picture 1."

You should be able to open that file in Photoshop with no problems.

--Ben

Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/

Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
   http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/     http://www.evolt.org/

From simplecypher at bitshift.ws  Thu Jun  6 18:34:01 2002
From: simplecypher at bitshift.ws (:: kevination ::)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:34:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] chinese inside macromedia homesite?
References: <3CFFF952.1901.17AE734@localhost>
Message-ID: <000e01c20db3$0ee23cd0$3001330a@marchfirstslc.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

HomeSite 5 does in fact have full Unicode support.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard The Duck" <h.t.d at gmx.de>
| simple - you can't. Homesite has no support for unicode.
| try ultraedit (Windows), BBEdit (Mac), vim or (x)emacs (linux) they
| have unicode support built in = can create chinese files.
| Graphical editors are not my resort, but Mozillas "composer" can
| create unicode html files for sure.
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (MingW32) - GPGOE 0.4.1
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iQIcBAEBAgAGBQI8//IXAAoJEO4zpFgPJZelT6sP/0gSGj+TGdc5Ypxo9B9vG1i4
lXivfL2aqUj7UVkU2M8xWo6bA8sLyTRjNOLDjq9GiRCH/dE68IdBVSjR+9NNswn+
ccc8RvwwiGVFcpEGXurVEocgWlO5s2IKgL+fkcoyvR4DPag4p/O0CwjzJOyTib51
94QTIXJrH2k28bavCzht5FItG7DbK0hz9oymgzi02/g8Iw/zpnBj/39Ep2CZZ2d3
+6pAjpvhJUqmcQPY5OMEgAUFyfp6fZ2BMxZJ1LJ8GNcUhIYKXB80RA0A98YRcplJ
74W+qjQxxd2PdrEGnlnSeGTwMKV4FZhWagjISjbngs5L334BR9sPTyb+2tnJr3Mb
YXr6TnC55fIbppzMIKKQmn3oggq7bNmhKmoOMiGH5jXf8DpmcACHsfaW/fJd5wPR
uhfw2mvX++oTgmuA+UupKFALjvtdT72PZzmzr3LZ3uiiel/UivCw8V6FLHEW+cUf
tTdai2qxzoiKO2/XY3FzGLvR/PtTpTRWQIQBiwOI9AJY63MevGDoXWTwRP7pa+s+
geCjZ7Xdd4H4J4Q4cw86mSsUyju8IYV3UT5XHS4xBuYi8tP3T5rKBPqycjVOO4FU
b+d2S+MIDyYq67LXLvziiAFYkCYvMl9m9zr9FRq+RtwcO8FxBjKVrSAfti3hx7LV
d4O979RShSNA+b5nLpWg
=APKl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From chaositec at chaositec.dk  Thu Jun  6 18:35:00 2002
From: chaositec at chaositec.dk (Fabian Olesen)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:35:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606182950.03e1aff8@mail.imaginuity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606182950.03e1aff8@mail.imaginuity.com>
Message-ID: <1023406517.2233.41.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>

fre, 2002-06-07 kl. 01:30 skrev Ben Dyer:

> Don't know about Cmd+Shift+4, but Cmd+Shift+3 dumps a PICT file in the main
> hard drive called "Picture 1."
>
as i recall the same applies to Cmd+Shift+4

Fabian Olesen

--------
My dog ate my .sig
--------

From joel at spinhead.com  Thu Jun  6 18:38:00 2002
From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel Canfield)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:38:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
Message-ID: <D0E94826C140C3409057ED957D96AC480220@ireland.spinhead.com>

> Don't know about Cmd+Shift+4, but Cmd+Shift+3 dumps a PICT
> file in the main hard drive called "Picture 1."
>
> You should be able to open that file in Photoshop with no problems.
>
> --Ben

Bingo! Or should I say, "Ben-go!"

tenks

joel

From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu  Thu Jun  6 18:40:01 2002
From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please
In-Reply-To: <C6B2C319C76C7A498CC6AE908EAEC5C30EC7F4@apexch10.rl.gov>
	(Jonathan_A_McPherson@rl.gov)
References: <C6B2C319C76C7A498CC6AE908EAEC5C30EC7F4@apexch10.rl.gov>
Message-ID: <200206062339.TAA09775@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>

Explorer 5.00, NT 4, 31.2K modem.  Loads up quick -- good.

A).  Give it a background.  Shows up grey on my machine, which I imagine isn't
     what you want.

2).  Make default values for the variables.  This would go a long way to making
     the better-looking urls you mentioned, if, for example, I could put in
     http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm and get
     http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=1,
     or even if I could put in
     http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical
	 and have the page=1 assumed.  As is, CF pukes.

gimmel).  On Pneumonia.7 (Auscultation), it couldn't find the icon for 'Flash
	 applet'.

IV).  You might use straight buttons rather than images for the quizzes.

e).  Couldn't find Pneumonia.11, etc.

jswiders.

-----Original Message-----
   From: Daniel Fascia [mailto:danfascia at totalise.co.uk]
   Subject: [thelist] Platform/browser test please

It needs to be very accessible and usable since its for a university based
   project and they are hot on that stuff, also many people of differing
   platforms will use it.

http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=1

--
Jonathon Isaac Swiderski      jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu
   135 w lorain ocmr 2678 \\ oberlin oh 44074-1081
   home : 900 barton dr \\ ann arbor mi 48105-1232

"What we have to learn to do we learn by doing"
    -- Aristotle, Ethica Nicomachea II (c 325 BC)

From jwalton at four09.org  Thu Jun  6 18:42:00 2002
From: jwalton at four09.org (john-paul)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:42:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
In-Reply-To: <1023406517.2233.41.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>
Message-ID: <B9256C5E.59C1%jwalton@four09.org>

>> Don't know about Cmd+Shift+4, but Cmd+Shift+3 dumps a PICT file in the main
>> hard drive called "Picture 1."
>>
> as i recall the same applies to Cmd+Shift+4

<tip type="Mac Screencaps" author="jwalton">
Cmd+Shift+4 gives you a crosshair where you can select a region of the
screen to capture.

Cmd+Shift+4 with caps lock on, allows you to capture the active window.

If you change your mind, Cmd+period reverts to your normal cursor.
</tip>

:: john-paul
:: music :: http://www.mmodule.com
:: collective :: http://www.four09.org

> From: Fabian Olesen <chaositec at chaositec.dk>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: 07 Jun 2002 01:35:16 +0200
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Screen cap with Mac
>
>> Don't know about Cmd+Shift+4, but Cmd+Shift+3 dumps a PICT file in the main
>> hard drive called "Picture 1."
>>
> as i recall the same applies to Cmd+Shift+4

From codebitch at macedition.com  Thu Jun  6 18:45:01 2002
From: codebitch at macedition.com (CodeBitch)
Date: Thu Jun  6 18:45:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] User agent: browser and OS
In-Reply-To: <20020606205239.A81E03A33@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B92631B4.4C21%codebitch@macedition.com>

David Shadovitz <david_shadovitz at xontech.com> wrote

> A few days ago Matt posted the May '02 stats for evolt.org.  I'm
> interested in doing the same for my site, and so I'd like to know his
> rules for categorizing the user agent by browser and OS.  You've got to
> know what you're doing, since, for example, the user agent for Opera
> contains both "MSIE" and "Opera".  Feel free to chime in.

Simple answer:

(1) use Analog http://www.analog.cx/.
It does the OS categorisations for you, correctly identifies Opera, Galeon
and Konqueror. Recent versions identify WinXP correctly, and Mozilla
separately from Netscape, but the config files need a tweak to put Netscape
7 PR1 in the Netscape group.

(2) use my config file http://www.macedition.com/cb/manconf.cfg
This will additionally ensure that OmniWeb, iCab, and a bunch of minor
browsers and search engine spiders are correctly identified.

If you want to know subversions, you must add the SUBBROW */*.* command to
the analog.cfg file that comes with Analog.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
CB
http://www.macedition.com/cb/

From kathy at site-etc.com  Thu Jun  6 19:14:01 2002
From: kathy at site-etc.com (Kathy Long)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:14:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <20020606234740.75910C0B6@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B9254828.141BF%kathy@site-etc.com>

I know this is an old question, so forgive me for asking again, but I have a
client who wants his site designed for 1024 x 768 (meaning it can NOT
squeeze into anything smaller), and it goes against my grain. Everyone he
knows is at that resolution (he's a programmer), so he thinks most everyone
else is as well. I told him I'd ask and see what others think.

It's a children's bookstore, so given that his audience is mostly young
parents, does anyone have any idea what the norm would be for that group? He
doesn't care about the people who will have to scroll right - as long as
that isn't the majority. Will that be the case?

Thanks,
Kathy

--
SITE-etc
Instant Site Enhancements
831.335.7118
http://www.SITE-etc.com

Enabling and empowering your business. Simply. Affordably.

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Thu Jun  6 19:28:02 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: mailing software
Message-ID: <E17G7bQ-0006y0-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

I am using Easyletter, and have been very pleased with software from
this fellow. I've forgotten exact address off-hand, but something like
onlinetools.org -- just Google for Easyletter. Free to non-profit
oriented sites.

Cheers --
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 15:40:43 -0400
> From: Sharon Palmer <palmer.74 at osu.edu>
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] mailing software
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> We are looking for software to handle mailing a monthly email
newsletter.
> We need email and web form subscription, email unsubscribe,
> and handling bounced mail.  There are about 3000 names on the current
list.
>
> The software Mailloop was recommended, but this seems more targeted
> to sales than to a newsletter and is quite expensive.
>
> I've seen mentions of Worldcast software on this list and it seems to
handle
> our needs.  Since we are non-profit, it would be free to us.
>
> If you have used either of these packages, or have suggestions
> for other suitable software, please let me know.  Thank you.
>
>
> Sharon Palmer           palmer at wosu.org
> The WOSU Stations Computer Center

From beau at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 19:35:00 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:35:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <B9254828.141BF%kathy@site-etc.com>
Message-ID: <000001c20dbb$0cfda4b0$cd71fea9@Cube>

> doesn't care about the people who will have to scroll right - as long
as
> that isn't the majority. Will that be the case?

The first thing you should do is try to convince your client to go with
a liquid layout. If you do, the design will work for anyone.

I think the majority of web users are at 800x600. Most major sites that
rely on fixed widths seem to be built with this in mind. Here are
April's monitor resolution stats from thecounter.com:

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/April/res.php

If those numbers still don't convince this guy, then try to squeeze all
of the site's important elements into the first 780 or so pixels of your
design. You can use the remaining 224 pixels for things that the user
won't miss, like advertising and promotions. If done right, the user may
not even notice that they are missing anything off to the right.

To get a sense of how much a user at 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 can
see in their particular web browser go here:

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a.html?tw=design

Cheers,

Beau

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Thu Jun  6 19:46:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Thu Jun  6 19:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
Message-ID: <E17G7sP-0007C3-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

Okay, I am building a very simple, probably prototype Web site for a
guy. Right now, I just threw up a quick 3-4 pages in a subdirectory of
my own site, to show him what's possible QUICKLY. (He told me Saturday
he'd been paying someone for months, and had a site with NO CONTENT! So
Sunday I gave him the address of a "site" he could look over Monday.)
The "site" is at camilio.accesswriters.com and everything in it will
change after I interview him Monday (he's not even a contractor, really
into real estate!).

Anyway, my question is this: It's my very first totally CSS-controlled
site, and I want to be able to use the fixed position box. I know my
next CSS spec pages to plow through are inheritance & cascading, but
for what element (or classes?) can I assign large margin values, but
set to 0 left-margin for the part of the page where I want the nav
list? I was hoping to set large margins for body, but reset them for
H1, and that didn't work. When I finally had access to a CSS-capable
browser (my development machine has an ancient browser), it turned out
I had to add in CSS rules for all the elements individually (UL, P,
etc.).

Also, the fixed position doesn't do what I expected (it scrolls with
the page). Any comments from the experts before I hit the "books" again?

Thanks...
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 20:25:00 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:25:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <000001c20dbb$0cfda4b0$cd71fea9@Cube>
Message-ID: <000801c20dc2$0b732ff0$6501a8c0@neonreactor>

> I think the majority of web users are at 800x600. Most major
> sites that rely on fixed widths seem to be built with this in
> mind. Here are April's monitor resolution stats from thecounter.com:
>
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/April/res.php

That's a pretty cool resource!

I have found that most of my sites' visitors are at 800x600 too.

<tip type="knowing your audience's capabilities">
I use a cool little traffic stat reporting tool that reports screen
size, color depth, javascript on/off as well as host IP, datetime and
standard log stuff.

This is a good tool for me to *know my audience*.

StatIt MySQL V 3.00 by Helge Orthmann www.otterware.de
</tip>

John Corry
Neon Cowboy Design
http://www.neoncowboy.com
mail : john at neoncowboy.com
phone : 808.572.8494

From joshua at waetech.com  Thu Jun  6 20:29:00 2002
From: joshua at waetech.com (Joshua Olson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:29:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
References: <KNEOKJCOCHEDPIMPAIMIKEAICLAA.evolt@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <112601c20dc2$884a6a70$4300a8c0@client1>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gijs van Tulder" <evolt at gmx.net>
Subject: RE: [thelist] More copied sites

> Another 'good part' is this:
> http://www.sifindia.com/webdev.htm
> The category-dropdown-list still redirects you to evolt.org.
>
> Also look at the ?-button on the top of the page. It definitely is a
helpful
> help-page.

Did you also try selecting from the drop down and hitting "go"?  It still
goes to Evolt.

-joshua

From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 20:31:01 2002
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <000901c20da9$d291a670$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIOEGKFGAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> I suppose you can't blame them, after all, the evolt.org code is
> available for free.
> http://www.evolt.org/evolt_source_code/index.html

Branding and design are not code.

This guy took both our branding and design, but didn't use our CMS source
code or any of the other code provided on the page you referenced (which are
available to use).

isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 21:09:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
Message-ID: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>

OK, Ive just been looking at www.thecounter.com and the browser stats over the past
6 months and have 1 major question.

Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape 4.x??

it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and got a decent browser

</rant>

--Dan

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Thu Jun  6 21:13:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:13:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIOEGKFGAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <XUZGB65YWWQLI08OK5YUTSNIZWURLF.3d00165c@DANFASCIA-21>

Poor guy lives in Kashmir... I think the least of his worries are getting done for stealing evolt.org's
branding at the moment (sick... ;-) ) India are loading up nuclear warheads as we speak according
to the BBC news...

sorry... little sick and OT but Ive just been celebrating exam finish

>Branding and design are not code.
>
>This guy took both our branding and design, but didn't use our CMS source
>code or any of the other code provided on the page you referenced (which are
>available to use).

From Raymond.Wilson at trimble.co.nz  Thu Jun  6 21:28:00 2002
From: Raymond.Wilson at trimble.co.nz (Raymond Wilson)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:28:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
Message-ID: <30EA867D9991D4118BEA00508B120AB4029F78C0@nz01xch02.trimble.co.nz>

It has a lot to do with peoples ability (or inclincation :-) to upgrade.
Most users faced with a 10-30Mb download over a 56k or slower link to
upgrade to the latest browser simply wont bother.

It's the same reason Netscape failed. When users had a functional web
browser already built-in to the new machine they bought, why would they
spend that time and expense to download a different one?

Cheers,

Raymond.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Fascia [mailto:danfascia at totalise.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 2:08 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?

OK, Ive just been looking at www.thecounter.com and the browser stats over
the past
6 months and have 1 major question.

Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape 4.x??

it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and got a
decent browser

</rant>

--Dan

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Jun  6 21:34:01 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:34:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
Message-ID: <01c20dcb$287d07c0$bfe8059a@rudy>

hi carol

oh i am such a sucker for a direct appeal in the subject line

>The "site" is at camilio.accesswriters.com

pretty sweet as is

>Anyway, my question is this: It's my very first totally CSS-controlled
>site, and I want to be able to use the fixed position box.

that's not a question   ;o)

why fixed?

> I know my next CSS spec pages to plow through are inheritance &
> cascading,

those are actually part of the "css 201" course   ;o)

> but for what element (or classes?) can I assign large margin values,

all o' dem

> but set to 0 left-margin for the part of the page where I want the nav
> list?

um, ya lost me

> I was hoping to set large margins for body, but reset them for
> H1, and that didn't work.

a large margin for body?  do you remember when we could do that on the
<body> tag in plain html? the same concept holds in css, except if you want
stuff like the h1 headings to "hang over the edge" you can now use negative
margins on them

but i wouldn't

see, i am most definitely the wrong guy to ask, because the basic idea of a
negative margin makes me queasy

i figure, stuff inside the body, has to stay inside the body

but that's just me

also, if the browser wants to indent bulleted list items, i ain't about to
try to override that -- because sure as shootin, some other browser is
gonna barf on it

you should see some of the things the experienced css guys do to get pieces
of the page to line up according to what they feel looks nice

box model hack?  i try to stay away from stuff like that

and i have so far -- touch wood -- also avoided absolute positions

sorry i couldn't help more

i'm not anti-css, in fact i definitely and wholeheartedly believe in
separating style from content, but at the same time, i have a very strong
aversion to what i call hacks (donning my flame retardant suit), so if
anything, i am perhaps just a css anti-guru....

rudy

From rachel at cre8d-design.com  Thu Jun  6 21:38:01 2002
From: rachel at cre8d-design.com (Rachel Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Plotting latitude/longitude coordinates dynamically
In-Reply-To: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGGEELCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGMEELCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for open source code that will take a list of coordinates
(longitude/latitude) from a database (for example) and plot them on a map
with each point clickable.  Anyone able to point me in the right direction?
I'm not looking for translating IP #'s into coordinates (seen some software
that does that).

TIA,
Rachel

From beau at members.evolt.org  Thu Jun  6 21:49:01 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <000001c20dcd$c9aa4070$cd71fea9@Cube>

Dan wrote:

> Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape
4.x??
>
> it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and
got a
> decent browser

Well, according to:

http://www.nua.ie/surveys/how_many_online/

it's estimated that there 544.2 million internet users in the world. The
counter.com numbers only add up to about 399 million.

People keep asking me how many NN 4 users are still out there. So I took
the numbers from thecounter.com, and put them in an Excel sheet so I
could get more accurate percentages. Then, I took these accurate
percentages and multiplied them by the 544,200,000.

It turns out that there's more like 24,300,871 NN 4 users out there,
give our take a few million.

Here's the rest of them:

MSIE 5.x                303,021,284
MSIE 6.x                177,921,047
Netscape 4.x            24,300,871
MSIE 4.x                19,436,999
Netscape compatible     5,835,040
Netscape 6.x            4,846,577
Opera x.x               4,079,015
Unknown                 2,629,192
Netscape 5.x            998,654
Netscape 3.x            389,226
MSIE 3.x                372,727
MSIE 2.x                343,588
Netscape 2.x            24,116
MSIE 1.x                846
Netscape 1.x            817

Like others have already said, check *your* audience. Maybe only 5 or 6
of those 24 million NN 4 users are actually visiting your site.

Now, if you want to have some *real* fun, go download Netscape 1.x from
http://browsers.evolt.org/.

Beau

From dmah at shaw.ca  Thu Jun  6 21:50:01 2002
From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Plotting latitude/longitude coordinates dynamically
In-Reply-To: <"from rachel"@cre8d-design.com>
References: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGGEELCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
 <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGMEELCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <20020606204800.A2796@alice.cg.shawcable.net>

I have the beginnings of something like that.

http://members.evolt.org/dmah/Map/

It currently plots some of the evolt.org members.  I haven't made it
clickable yet and it's huge and slow.  So there's definite tweaks that
need to be made.  Data is pulled from a MySQL database but there isn't
an interface to enter new co-ordinates yet either.  In other words, it
needs lots of work but it should give you an idea.  Maps are generated
with xplanet.

Dean

On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:40:24PM +1200, Rachel Cunliffe wrote:

> I'm looking for open source code that will take a list of
> coordinates (longitude/latitude) from a database (for example) and
> plot them on a map with each point clickable.  Anyone able to point
> me in the right direction?  I'm not looking for translating IP #'s
> into coordinates (seen some software that does that).

From gozz at gozz.com  Thu Jun  6 21:55:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:55:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash detection
In-Reply-To: <B924F08D.1F85%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>
References: <B924F08D.1F85%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>
Message-ID: <a05111b04b925cf977a80@[192.168.1.100]>

>I want a flash detection script which will simply determine whether Flash 4
>or above is installed.

In your Publish settings, under the "HTML" tab, select "Detect for Flash 4".

In the resulting code, there is a section which writes output with
JavaScript if Flash 4 was not detected and a <noscript> tag. Edit
that content to be whatever you want.

Also, if the ActiveX version is not 4,0,0,0, change it to 4,0,0,0.

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Jun  6 21:56:00 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Jun  6 21:56:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
Message-ID: <01c20dce$5453d740$bfe8059a@rudy>

> Why [snip] do [people] still use Netscape 4.x??

hi dan

because they can   ;o)

> it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier
> if they just gave in and got a decent browser

well, i fully understand your feelings, but they may be misdirected

are you referring to css problems or something else?

why not just develop for standards compliant browsers, and use the @import
technique, thus letting the netscape 4 people see a simple page?

if the answer in your case is "my clients/bosses won't let me" then i
suggest that your chagrin is better directed at them instead of the
netscape 4 users

you have a better chance of getting somewhere too

;o)

rudy

From gozz at gozz.com  Thu Jun  6 22:00:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606153533.029a9748@pop.quallaby.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606153533.029a9748@pop.quallaby.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b05b925d0e8c961@[192.168.1.100]>

>I think the topics of Flash usability and accessibility are both
>interesting.  It's a matter of knowing your audience, and deciding who
>you're going to exclude from the party, or how difficult you're going to
>make for them to get in.

That's the great thing about Flash: you have almost total control
over a GUI and can make it anything you want.

What's the decision you're making?

>But I suspect this is the wrong list for discussing Flash at all.  Does
>anyone know of an alternative list?

There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored. Discuss.
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From rachel at cre8d-design.com  Thu Jun  6 22:03:01 2002
From: rachel at cre8d-design.com (Rachel Cunliffe)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:03:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Plotting latitude/longitude coordinates dynamically
In-Reply-To: <20020606204800.A2796@alice.cg.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGMEEMCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>

Hmm, I'm more looking for a political map (outlines of countries) rather
than physical.
How would one make it clickable -- would you have to have to specify an
image map for the gif/jpeg/png?
Getting data into/out of mySQL is the straightforward part, finding those
points on the map the tricky bit.

-- Rachel

-----Original Message-----

I have the beginnings of something like that.

http://members.evolt.org/dmah/Map/

It currently plots some of the evolt.org members.  I haven't made it
clickable yet and it's huge and slow.  So there's definite tweaks that need
to be made.  Data is pulled from a MySQL database but there isn't an
interface to enter new co-ordinates yet either.  In other words, it needs
lots of work but it should give you an idea.  Maps are generated with
xplanet.

Dean

From jwalton at four09.org  Thu Jun  6 22:07:01 2002
From: jwalton at four09.org (john-paul)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <01c20dce$5453d740$bfe8059a@rudy>
Message-ID: <B9259864.1A24%jwalton@four09.org>

> why not just develop for standards compliant browsers, and use the @import
> technique, thus letting the netscape 4 people see a simple page?

ugh... the @import technique solves the NS4 problem, but it doesn't solve
the same problem in several other browsers still in use... ie4.x/win for
one...

:: john-paul
:: music :: http://www.mmodule.com
:: collective :: http://www.four09.org

From dmah at shaw.ca  Thu Jun  6 22:12:01 2002
From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:12:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Plotting latitude/longitude coordinates dynamically
In-Reply-To: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGMEEMCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <200206070311.g573BAv02908@alice.monkeyland.ca>

Yeah, I was thinking of using an imagemap.  It's been awhile since I
worked on this but xplanet may give you the x-, y-coordinates of the
points.  You'd have to make them big enough to be clickable.  Some of
the other people were working on a Flash map that located evolt.org
members as well.  The trick is finding a good map.

Dean

Rachel Cunliffe writes:

> Hmm, I'm more looking for a political map (outlines of countries) rather
> than physical.
> How would one make it clickable -- would you have to have to specify an
> image map for the gif/jpeg/png?
> Getting data into/out of mySQL is the straightforward part, finding those
> points on the map the tricky bit.
>
> -- Rachel
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> I have the beginnings of something like that.
>
>    http://members.evolt.org/dmah/Map/
>
> It currently plots some of the evolt.org members.  I haven't made it
> clickable yet and it's huge and slow.  So there's definite tweaks that need
> to be made.  Data is pulled from a MySQL database but there isn't an
> interface to enter new co-ordinates yet either.  In other words, it needs
> lots of work but it should give you an idea.  Maps are generated with
> xplanet.
>
> Dean

From kevin at brasscannon.net  Thu Jun  6 22:14:02 2002
From: kevin at brasscannon.net (Kevin Martin)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] CHMOD
In-Reply-To: <20020606194138.8B413C0AE@relay.evolt.org>; from thelist-request@lists.evolt.org on Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:41:38PM -0500
References: <20020606194138.8B413C0AE@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20020606161723.A8802@brasscannon.net>

Quoth Mark Joslyn <mark.joslyn at solimarsystems.com>

> I have been messing around trying to set directory settings using the CHMOD
> setting on my FTP site.

That's 'chmod' when you're at the command prompt.  Unix is CaSe-SenSiTive.

> Here is what I need:
> 1.	I want access to do whatever I want in that directory(read, write,
> execute).
> 2.	I want customers to be able to upload (only) files to that directory.
> 3.	I do not want the files in that directory to be listed if my customers
> view the directory
> 4.	I want the files to be listed when I view that directory.

Here's one part of the trick:  The same bit that is used to mark files as
"executable" is reused for a different purpose on directories.  It makes
them "searchable."  Even with the "x" bit off, though, if someone knows
the exact name of the file they want, they don't have to "search" to get
it.  They can still grab it blindly.

So... try making the directory mode 733.  That should be rwx-w--w-; group
and world write-only, not readable and not searchable.  You have to be
using the 'owner' account for that directory... so let's touch on that.

There are three classes of users (not counting root, who is God):  Owner,
Group, and World.  Unix permissions always boil down to "what group are
you in? What overlap, if any, is there between YOU as the owner, and
that other user? Is s/he in your group, or out in the world?"  So the
trick is to set up the ownership in a way that will support what you're
trying to do; then the correct chmod setting will be (almost) obvious.

> Can anyone clear this up for me - I am a newbie at UNIX, CHMOD, etc...

Try http://handsonhowto.com/unix101.html - My motto is "A little vague
handwaving saves hours of tedious explantion."  The discussion of
chmod could use some fresh blood, and you'd be doing me a favor by
sending me "real-world" questions on the discussion board there.  :-)

--
Kevin "digger" Martin <evolt at brasscannon.com>

From jcanfield at magisnetworks.com  Thu Jun  6 22:14:10 2002
From: jcanfield at magisnetworks.com (jcanfield at magisnetworks.com)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:14:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen capture on my Mac
Message-ID: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14ECB6@grog>

Have pity on a Mac neophyte: All I want to do is grab some screen caps. I
have the website open in IE, press Command(that goofy squiggle+Shift+4 and
then pop over to PhotoShop to paste, and the 'paste' option is greyed out.

Am I correct that Cmd+Shift+3 is the whole screen and Cmd+Shift+4 is the
active window?

Am I missing something real obvious?

Joel

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Thu Jun  6 22:14:18 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:14:18 2002
Subject: [thelist] mailing software
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606153043.0329e9d0@mail.wosu.org>
Message-ID: <0a0b01c20da2$9fe76400$773cfea9@crabnebula>

Well, there is MailMan (http:www.list.org), and Majordomo
(http:/www.majordomo.org).  Both use scripting languages.  MailMan - Python
while Majordomo - Perl.  Both require little/no programming experience and
offer extreme flexibility.  Plus, the fact that both are Open Sourced and
free software make either of these a good choice.  This, assuming of course,
you're looking for packages which offer the source code easily human
readable rather just the executable.

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Palmer <palmer.74 at osu.edu>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: [thelist] mailing software

> We are looking for software to handle mailing a monthly email newsletter.
> We need email and web form subscription, email unsubscribe,
> and handling bounced mail.  There are about 3000 names on the current
list.
>
> The software Mailloop was recommended, but this seems more targeted
> to sales than to a newsletter and is quite expensive.
>
> I've seen mentions of Worldcast software on this list and it seems to
handle
> our needs.  Since we are non-profit, it would be free to us.
>
> If you have used either of these packages, or have suggestions
> for other suitable software, please let me know.  Thank you.
>
>
> Sharon Palmer           palmer at wosu.org
> The WOSU Stations Computer Center
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From chrisg at gsnet.com  Thu Jun  6 22:14:28 2002
From: chrisg at gsnet.com (Chris George)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:14:28 2002
Subject: [thelist] associate links with Mozilla (or whatever) rather
	than IE in OS X
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606133217.00a0ba30@accessibleinter.net>
Message-ID: <B92533FE.756A%chrisg@gsnet.com>

On 6/6/02 2:32 PM, "Bill Mason" <evolt at accessibleinter.net> wrote:

> At 08:59 AM 06/06/2002, Chris George wrote:
>> I was wondering how I'd go about re-associating any links in programs like
>> Entourage, Mail, Word etc. so they open up in Mozilla (or whatever) instead
>> of IE under OS X (10.1.5).
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/faq/browser.html#2.2

Duh. Guess I should have done more than skim. >:-/

Thanks Bill!

<tip>
In Mozilla for OS X, the help is built in.  Therefore, if you want to 'quit'
help, just press the little red x, don't splat-q it, you'll kill Mozilla
entirely.
</tip>

From mrudberg at challengesoftware.net  Thu Jun  6 22:14:38 2002
From: mrudberg at challengesoftware.net (Mike Rudberg)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:14:38 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <0c2901c20dca$2c91c220$773cfea9@crabnebula>

I don't consider myself a "misguided individual".  IE x.x has, IMHO, never
worked properly for a myriad of reasons.  Not to mention that Microshaft
abandons their 'latest' in favor of their 'best' every single (or other)
year; thereby, creating more and more orphans.  IMHO, those who go along
with MS are just lemmings waiting for the butcher (Gates' gang) to enter the
room and take care of business.

Netscape, at least, offers the source code.  If you're so inclined and know
how to tweak Mozilla, you can create a better Netscape than Netscape (at
least for yourself).  MS doesn't even acknowledge that Open Source is a good
thing.

Best,

Mike
Visit us at http://challengesoftware.net

http://bemyringers.net/ringers - Ringers' Home Site
Ringers: The Best Alternative to Surfing

http://ringworld.sourceforge.net - The Official World of Webrings Project
Home

My ICQ #:160896032
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Fascia <danfascia at totalise.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?

> OK, Ive just been looking at www.thecounter.com and the browser stats over
the past
> 6 months and have 1 major question.
>
> <rant type="fickle">
>
> Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape 4.x??
>
> it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and got a
decent browser
>
> </rant>
>
> --Dan
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From cache at dowebscentral.com  Thu Jun  6 22:19:01 2002
From: cache at dowebscentral.com (Keith)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:19:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <B9254828.141BF%kathy@site-etc.com>
References: <20020606234740.75910C0B6@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606211833.024c8c50@dowebscentral.com>

At 06:11 PM Thursday 6/6/02, you wrote:
>I know this is an old question, so forgive me for asking again, but I have a
>client who wants his site designed for 1024 x 768 (meaning it can NOT
>squeeze into anything smaller), and it goes against my grain. Everyone he
>knows is at that resolution (he's a programmer), so he thinks most everyone
>else is as well. I told him I'd ask and see what others think.

I had a client insist on the same thing once, so I used a liquid layout
design. Since he only saw it from his computer he thought that that's what
I'd done. He never did catch on.......

keith

cache at dowebscentral.com

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Thu Jun  6 22:19:08 2002
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:19:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla download problems?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606221556.00b8afc0@redhotsweeps.com>

Is it just me or is anyone else having problems downloading a win32 version
of mozilla?  I keep getting server not found.

Chris

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Jun  6 22:20:00 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:20:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS: Mozilla and NS6.2 not loading stylesheet
Message-ID: <01c20dd1$8bca1d80$bfe8059a@rudy>

>for some reason, one that i can't figure out why, mozilla rc3 and nn6.2
>are not loading the stylesheet, let alone 90% of the graphics.

dunno about the graphics, but it might be that the css file is not being
served up with the correct text/css mime type

it's a known situation (i did not say "bug" because it isn't)

check here -- http://www.rexswain.com/httpview.html

rudy

From susanhw at webcastle.com  Thu Jun  6 22:31:01 2002
From: susanhw at webcastle.com (Susan Wallace)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CFLOCK help request
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020606222023.00bc8100@pop-server.houston.rr.com>

Greetings!

I inherited a CF application that was customized for one site, and is being
moved to a new server. The application was written using CFLOCK in this manner:

The server this was moved to throws an error (I'll outline in a sec) and
when I inquired about the server settings for Locking, the reply I got was
"The server is set for full locking."....

So, in the way of troubleshooting I loaded the main page, got the error:

***
An error has occurred while processing the expression:

Session.UserID=CFTempOnlyForSetVariableNeverUseThisNameInYourCFMLCode122333444455555654321
Symbol Session.UserID is in a scope that contains data shared across
threads and cannot be accessed without an active lock
***

And changed that particular lock to this:

I got past that page, loaded the next one, got the same error, different
page, same locking syntax. Changed that lock.

Then, the next error I got was basically the same, but this time, the code
looks like this:
(Error is on :#Session.CalendarID# NEQ #Attributes.CalendarID#)

***

<CFIF #Session.CalendarID# NEQ #Attributes.CalendarID#>
			<CFLOCK name="Session.CalendarID" timeout="10">
				<CFSET Session.CalendarID = #Attributes.CalendarID#>
			</CFLOCK>
			<CFSET Client.OptionsSet = "no">
			<CFINCLUDE template="/calendar/common/act_options.cfm">
		</CFIF>
	</CFIF>
***

If I change the Lock inside the second CFIF, I get "Extraneous CFIF" tag. I
have tried various combinations, but I seem to have a nesting issue that I
don't grok.

I am about brain fried, but I have been through the manual and the Best
Practices, but there is something I missed here.
Can someone point me in the right direction, please?

Thanks for any suggestions!

Susan Wallace

From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu  Thu Jun  6 22:41:00 2002
From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:41:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen capture on my Mac
In-Reply-To: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14ECB6@grog>
	(jcanfield@magisnetworks.com)
References: <9C564844426BB945B9AD8FD0106D905D14ECB6@grog>
Message-ID: <200206070340.XAA00843@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>

There's nothing to paste; you have to open a file.  Open your MacHD & look for
"Picture 1.PICT" or a PICT file named "Picture 1" . . .

jis

--
Jonathon Isaac Swiderski      jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu
   135 w lorain ocmr 2678 \\ oberlin oh 44074-1081
   home : 900 barton dr \\ ann arbor mi 48105-1232

"What we have to learn to do we learn by doing"
    -- Aristotle, Ethica Nicomachea II (c 325 BC)

From mark at markgroen.com  Thu Jun  6 22:41:08 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:41:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla download problems?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606221556.00b8afc0@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <3CFFC804.25005.37062D@localhost>

> Is it just me or is anyone else having problems downloading a win32
> version of mozilla?  I keep getting server not found.
>
Just got around to trying myself tonight and I suspect the many articles and blogs
generated over the past couple days about the news has overloaded a server. Just
went to the browser section and noticed aardvark has Mozilla 1.0 RC3 which I think
is the latest version if someone could confirm that for us? The Mozilla site just
says 1.0 with no Release Candidate number as far as I could see in a quick scan
of their site.
http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/mozilla/

From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Jun  6 22:41:19 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:41:19 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
Message-ID: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>

> ugh... the @import technique solves the NS4 problem,
> but it doesn't solve the same problem in several other
> browsers still in use... ie4.x/win for one...

point taken

actually, i remember ie4.x/win had pretty good css support (can't tell any
more, though, because this one piece of software i bought insisted on
upgrading ie to 5 or else it wouldn't install, and that still frosts my
buns when i think about it)

okay, how about these other strategies --

~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it

~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf

given those choices, the @import technique is better than nothing...

rudy

From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Thu Jun  6 22:49:01 2002
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (CDitty)
Date: Thu Jun  6 22:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla download problems?
In-Reply-To: <3CFFC804.25005.37062D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606221556.00b8afc0@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606224738.02689d80@redhotsweeps.com>

I looked at the evolt archive, but it is mac version.  Anyone care to
upload the win version?

Chris

At 12:37 PM 6/6/2002, you wrote:
> > Is it just me or is anyone else having problems downloading a win32
> > version of mozilla?  I keep getting server not found.
> >
>Just got around to trying myself tonight and I suspect the many articles
>and blogs
>generated over the past couple days about the news has overloaded a
>server. Just
>went to the browser section and noticed aardvark has Mozilla 1.0 RC3 which
>I think
>is the latest version if someone could confirm that for us? The Mozilla
>site just
>says 1.0 with no Release Candidate number as far as I could see in a quick
>scan
>of their site.
>http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/mozilla/
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From jwalton at four09.org  Thu Jun  6 23:00:07 2002
From: jwalton at four09.org (john-paul)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:00:07 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
Message-ID: <B925A4A9.1A3A%jwalton@four09.org>

> ~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it
>
> ~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf
>
> given those choices, the @import technique is better than nothing...

true...

although I prefer a simple php detect that gives cruddy browsers no CSS....

;)

:: john-paul
:: music :: http://www.mmodule.com
:: collective :: http://www.four09.org

> From: "rudy" <r937 at interlog.com>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:40:36 -0400
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Netscape... why?
>
>> ugh... the @import technique solves the NS4 problem,
>> but it doesn't solve the same problem in several other
>> browsers still in use... ie4.x/win for one...
>
> point taken
>
> actually, i remember ie4.x/win had pretty good css support (can't tell any
> more, though, because this one piece of software i bought insisted on
> upgrading ie to 5 or else it wouldn't install, and that still frosts my
> buns when i think about it)
>
> okay, how about these other strategies --
>
> ~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it
>
> ~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf
>
> given those choices, the @import technique is better than nothing...
>
>
> rudy
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From scotts at rci-nv.com  Thu Jun  6 23:01:06 2002
From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:01:06 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EB22@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Techwatcher [mailto:techwatcher at accesswriters.com]
>
> The "site" is at http://camilio.accesswriters.com
>
> Also, the fixed position doesn't do what I expected (it scrolls with
> the page). Any comments from the experts before I hit the
> "books" again?

positon: fixed doesn't work in IE. Not gonna happen, so don't lose sleep
over it. If you look at your site in Mozilla, it does what you want, but the
menu is too wide and overlaps the content. Setting a width:100px on the menu
might fix that, as well as playing with the margins and padding on the <ul>.

> for what element (or classes?) can I assign large margin values, but
> set to 0 left-margin for the part of the page where I want the nav
> list? I was hoping to set large margins for body, but reset them for
> H1, and that didn't work. When I finally had access to a CSS-capable
> browser (my development machine has an ancient browser), it turned out
> I had to add in CSS rules for all the elements individually (UL, P, etc.).

Use <div>s to handle the positioning. If you do something like this:
(disclaimer: I'm not that good at CSS-P myself)

You can then apply positioning to those divs:
#nav {
width: 100px;
position: fixed;
top: 0px;
left: 0px;
}
#bodytext {
position: absolute;
left: 120px;
top: 0px;
}

Put the entire page inside those divs, and you'll be well on your way.
Nothin's gonna get that menu to stay put in IE, though. It treats position:
fixed just like position: absolute.
See here:
http://www.computer-vet.com/clients/camilio/index.html

From gozz at gozz.com  Thu Jun  6 23:07:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
Message-ID: <a05111b0ab925e0bc7f20@[192.168.1.100]>

>okay, how about these other strategies --
>
>   ~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it
>
>   ~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf

~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
no browsers barf, some just don't show stylesheets

~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN 4.x
with JS disabled barf on it
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From snowdux at adelphia.net  Thu Jun  6 23:25:00 2002
From: snowdux at adelphia.net (snowdux at adelphia.net)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:25:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla download problems?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606221556.00b8afc0@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <3CFFFCDB.15389.1263681@localhost>

On 6 Jun 2002 at 22:18, CDitty wrote:

> Is it just me or is anyone else having problems downloading a win32 version
> of mozilla?  I keep getting server not found.

I had the same problem. I ended up getting it by going onto cnet (download.com),
and clicking on mirror sites to get a full list of them since the normal mozilla.org site
is down.  there is a list of a ton of mirrors.

-Bill

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Jun  6 23:27:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla download problems?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606224738.02689d80@redhotsweeps.com>
References: <3CFFC804.25005.37062D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CFFFD1D.16287.9AA3C3AC@localhost>

> From: CDitty <mail at redhotsweeps.com>
>
> I looked at the evolt archive, but it is mac version.  Anyone care to
> upload the win version?

bugger, thought i had that queue'd up for last night...  dinna check
for errors...

cc'ing work addy as reminder...
--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Jun  6 23:29:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:29:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b0ab925e0bc7f20@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
Message-ID: <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>

> From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
>
> >okay, how about these other strategies --
> >
> >   ~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it
> >
> >   ~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf
>
> ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
> no browsers barf, some just don't show stylesheets
>
> ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
> use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN 4.x
> with JS disabled barf on it --

NN4.x won't render CSS with JS disabled...

but IE without JS enabled will still be penalized...

i think using document.write penalizes your non-JS user
unecessarily... after all, if you're taking the time to serve
different CSS for people, why not support 'em all?

@import CSS that contains all the padding/margin/line-height
attributes so NN4.x doesn't poop, and it's still valid...

hell, you can justify it if you break your CSS pages up so one file
holds colors, another layout, another perhaps type, etc (handy if you
want to allow users to really customize a site)... it's not at all a
hack at that point, no matter how you feel about it... it's just that
one gets called via @import while the others get called via <link>...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Jun  6 23:37:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:37:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <3CFFFF96.20173.9AAD695B@localhost>

> From: Daniel Fascia <danfascia at totalise.co.uk>
[...]
> Why the f--k do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape
> 4.x??
[...]

here we go again...
- many schools can't
- same with libraries
- some IT shops refuse to let IE in the door
- old systems
- etc...

there are *lots* of valid reasons for the continued existence of
NN4.x -- or least valid to the users if not the developers...

oh, hey, read this, too:
Developing for the K-12 Audience
http://evolt.org/article/list/20/24054/

btw, your expletive above fired off no less than 5 corporate filters
that held the message for approval to their staff... at least, those
are the only ones that notify me...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Jun  6 23:45:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:45:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <000801c20dc2$0b732ff0$6501a8c0@neonreactor>
References: <000001c20dbb$0cfda4b0$cd71fea9@Cube>
Message-ID: <3D000175.7779.9AB4B8A4@localhost>

> From: "John Corry" <webshot at members.evolt.org>
> >
> http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/April/res.php
>
> That's a pretty cool resource!
>
> I have found that most of my sites' visitors are at 800x600 too.

really?  so what's their window size?

i ask that, of course, because my own research showed that at
800x600, users had a mean available viewport of 719x397, and at
1,024x768, they had a mean viewport of 881x539...

i only say this because resolution is not equal to window size, and
even if the user has the window maximized, let's not forget about
browser chrome (toolbars, status bars, scrollbars, window frames,
etc.)...

my numbers and methodology:
Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part II
http://evolt.org/article/list/20/2297/
--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From ethanol at mathlab.sunysb.edu  Thu Jun  6 23:56:01 2002
From: ethanol at mathlab.sunysb.edu (Sean G.)
Date: Thu Jun  6 23:56:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [SQL] using a char string as a list
Message-ID: <BHEEINGNABLHPFNMKPFPEEKICAAA.ethanol@mathlab.sunysb.edu>

Howdy,

Can a list be passed into a stored procedure as a char or varchar?  I'm
working with MS-SQL 2000.  I found a gaggle of related posts in the groups
on google, but they mainly focused on having quotes and commas recognized as
being part of the variable and not delimiters.

As far as I can tell, the variable is okay.  When I print and cut-n-paste
the value into a query, I get the expected results.  However calling the
variable in the query always returns 0 matches.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Sean G.

snipets:

DECLARE @UnitList AS varchar(50)
	SET @UnitList = '"AME","RE"'

select count(UnitKey) as blah from vUnitSort
	where UnitAbbrev in (@UnitList)

print @UnitList

returns:

blah
	----
	0

"AME","RE"

where as:

select count(UnitKey) as blah from vUnitSort
	where UnitAbbrev in ("AME","RE")

returns:

blah
	----
	1453

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Fri Jun  7 00:01:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:01:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <3D003E05.4000302@cyberfuddle.com>

Daniel Fascia wrote:
> OK, Ive just been looking at www.thecounter.com and the browser stats over the past
> 6 months and have 1 major question.
>
> <rant type="fickle">
>
> Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape 4.x??

It could easily be more than that.  Or, perhaps, less.  thecounter.com
isn't particularly reliable, IIRC.

> it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and got a decent browser

I could say the same thing about IE users :o).

Anyway, what about those running terminals on UNIX who only have access
to whatever browsers their system administrators allow them?

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 00:11:01 2002
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:11:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 06-JUN-02
Message-ID: <200206070510.g575A18W008136@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 06-JUN-02

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

News: Mozilla 1.0, Right on Time (Author: aardvark)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/1/29339/index.html

4 years, 3 dozen components, 2 skipped Netscape versions, 1.0
Mozilla.  Now, how long until the first point release?

Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org

From persist1 at io.com  Fri Jun  7 00:18:00 2002
From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:18:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b0ab925e0bc7f20@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206070009240.26045-100000@eris.io.com>

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Erik Mattheis wrote:

> ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
> no browsers barf, some just don't show stylesheets
>
> ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
> use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN 4.x
> with JS disabled barf on it

Been there, done that.  Doesn't work.

Opera, you see, barfs on that... while Opera does have its quirks, it
offers the best CSS support out there (and is a bunch of other neat,
userfriendly things, though decent JavaScript support is not one of them).
I've made up my mind that PITA or not, refusing CSS rules to Opera is a
Bad Thing.  (JS code is another story entirely.)

You can do this instead:  write your CSS stylesheet, overwrite the values
for Netscape 4 by LINKing a second JSSS stylesheet, and call it a day
(though certain techniques may well cause NN4 to become crash-prone).  Or
if you're comfortable with the overhead, just @import the "Everybody Else"
stylesheet from the LINK tag.

--
Ben Henick
Web Author At-Large              Managing Editor
http://www.io.com/persist1/      http://www.digital-web.com/
persist1 at io.com                  bmh at digital-web.com
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"
"I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid."
"We will disguise ourselves as a cow."
"Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!"

From Ed at ComSimplicity.com  Fri Jun  7 00:38:01 2002
From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Ed McCarroll)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <0c2901c20dca$2c91c220$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <NDBBLLCLKJDNHHNPAAHHGEDMDPAA.Ed@ComSimplicity.com>

> IMHO, those who go along with MS are just lemmings
> waiting for the butcher (Gates' gang) to enter the
> room and take care of business.

I beg your pardon!  Us lemmings most definitely do not
wait for the butcher; we have this thing we do with an
ocean and a cliff!

From Ed at ComSimplicity.com  Fri Jun  7 00:38:08 2002
From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Ed McCarroll)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:38:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <0c2901c20dca$2c91c220$773cfea9@crabnebula>
Message-ID: <NDBBLLCLKJDNHHNPAAHHIEDMDPAA.Ed@ComSimplicity.com>

> > Why the #&@! do 16606594 misguided individuals ...

<tipp type=preach>
Profanity is perceived, by many, as offensive.  For this
reason, it can distract readers from what may be a valid
point.
</tipp>

Yes, I know, I now owe two real tips ...

From mail_lists at jakesdiner.com  Fri Jun  7 00:50:01 2002
From: mail_lists at jakesdiner.com (Jacob Aust)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
Message-ID: <7C267F01.CA%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>

Hi...

I'm somewhat of a beginner in PHP and I have been beating my head against
this one today.

I have a string indexed array that I am stepping through and formatting with
HTML. I am trying to figure out a way to find out when I am at the last item
in the array. My loop writes the value of each element and then inserts a
slash for separation from the next element. However, after the last item I
want to not output the slash.

Is it possible to referenct items in a string indexed array by a numeric
index? I can easily get the number of items in the array with count(), but
how do I tell if the current item in a foreach() loop is the last one?

Here's my code:
-----------------------

$myhref = "index.php";

$sections = array ("case" => "case studies", "client" => "by client", "type"
=> "by type");

function print_sections() {
    global $sections;
    global $myhref;
    echo"<p class=\"subWORK\">";
    foreach ($sections as $sectionID => $section) {
        echo"<a href=\"$myhref?$sectionID\"> $section </a>";
        $LastElement = ????????
        if (!$LastElement) {
                echo"//";
        }
    }

}

-------------------------

What I am trying to do is figure out how to set $LastElement to FALSE when
the item is anything but the last element of the array and TRUE when it is
the last element.

Any suggestions?

Jake Aust

From mahyde at pentact.co.zw  Fri Jun  7 00:57:01 2002
From: mahyde at pentact.co.zw (Mark Hyde (Pentact))
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:57:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)
References: <F779D21D-7998-11D6-9A19-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001801c20de8$b3311fb0$351110ac@w1l2h4>

Just an interim report on this. Thanks for all those who have responded with
useful info about why the stylesheet may not be detected. I am waiting for a
response from ISP1.

Re pentact.com, this is now (unaccountably and with no action having been
taken on my part) working fine in both Mozilla 1 (final) and Netscape. The
index.html page validates as XHTML transitional but there are two errors
with the CSS file which clearly I must correct.

Thanks for everyone's help!

Mark

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Burns" <martin at easyweb.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 final is out (undetected stylesheets)

>
> On Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 04:27  pm, Scott Schrantz wrote:
>
> >> This sounds as if it could be the incorrect MIME type problem

From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Jun  7 00:58:01 2002
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Jun  7 00:58:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
In-Reply-To: <7C267F01.CA%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0206070153540.30099-100000@scooter.webservepro.com>

On Jan 1, Jacob Aust had something to say about [thelist] PHP String...

>Hi...
>
>I'm somewhat of a beginner in PHP and I have been beating my head against
>this one today.
>
>I have a string indexed array that I am stepping through and formatting with
>HTML. I am trying to figure out a way to find out when I am at the last item
>in the array. My loop writes the value of each element and then inserts a
>slash for separation from the next element. However, after the last item I
>want to not output the slash.
>
>Is it possible to referenct items in a string indexed array by a numeric
>index? I can easily get the number of items in the array with count(), but
>how do I tell if the current item in a foreach() loop is the last one?

try this inside your foreach loop:

if ( !(array[item] == end(array)) )
{
	print "/";
}
else
{
	// currently on the last element
}

hth,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com

From mail_lists at jakesdiner.com  Fri Jun  7 01:15:00 2002
From: mail_lists at jakesdiner.com (Jacob Aust)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:15:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0206070153540.30099-100000@scooter.webservepro.com>
Message-ID: <7C2684D2.D3%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>

Matt,

I tried this:

----------------------------------
function print_sections() {
    global $sections;
    global $myhref;
    echo"<p class=\"subWORK\">";
    foreach ($sections as $sectionID => $section) {
        echo"<a href=\"$myhref?$sectionID\"> $section </a>";
        if ( !($section == end($sections)) )
        {
            echo"//";
        }
        else
        {
            //currently on last item
        }
    }

}

-----------------------------------------

And it gave me this:

Case studies // by type by type by type by type by type by type by type by
type by type by type by type by type by type by type by type by type by type
by type by type by type by type by type....

Infinite loop.

I think it has to do with the fact that the end() funcion sets the array
pointer to the last element, which is great for the test, but messes with
the foreach() loop.

Ahhhh.....still stumped.

Thanks for the help anyway.

Jake

On 6/6/02 9:56 PM, "Warden, Matt" <mwarden at mattwarden.com> wrote:

> On Jan 1, Jacob Aust had something to say about [thelist] PHP String...
>
>> Hi...
>>
>> I'm somewhat of a beginner in PHP and I have been beating my head against
>> this one today.
>>
>> I have a string indexed array that I am stepping through and formatting with
>> HTML. I am trying to figure out a way to find out when I am at the last item
>> in the array. My loop writes the value of each element and then inserts a
>> slash for separation from the next element. However, after the last item I
>> want to not output the slash.
>>
>> Is it possible to referenct items in a string indexed array by a numeric
>> index? I can easily get the number of items in the array with count(), but
>> how do I tell if the current item in a foreach() loop is the last one?
>
> try this inside your foreach loop:
>
> if ( !(array[item] == end(array)) )
> {
> print "/";
> }
> else
> {
> // currently on the last element
> }
>
>
> hth,
>
>
> --
> mattwarden
> mattwarden.com

From sub at shanx.com  Fri Jun  7 01:18:01 2002
From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
References: <7C267F01.CA%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c20dea$f6506f10$e008a8c0@DMF59>

Jacob,

Try this somewhat kludgish code. But in general, I wonder why you really
need to work with the string arrays anyway!

Cheers,
Shashank

---------

<?php

$myhref = "index.php";
$sections = array ("case" => "case studies", "client" => "by client",
"type"=> "by type");
print_r($sections);
echo "<p>";

global $sections;
global $myhref;
echo"<p class=\"subWORK\"> ";

$ctr = 0;
foreach ($sections as $sectionID => $section)
{

$ctr++;
    echo"<a href=\"$myhref?$sectionID\"> $section</a> ";
    if ($ctr <> sizeOf($sections))
    {
        echo" // ";
    }

}

From mail_lists at jakesdiner.com  Fri Jun  7 01:24:00 2002
From: mail_lists at jakesdiner.com (Jacob Aust)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:24:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
In-Reply-To: <00c001c20dea$f6506f10$e008a8c0@DMF59>
Message-ID: <B9259F65.DA%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>

Well...

I am using the string indexed arrays because this array (an others like it)
represent sections of my web site. I plan to use the Index as a GET variable
appended to the URL to request a section. In other words, if I want the
"case studies" section, I will request "index.php?section=case"

I am using the array to print out the navigation between sections and the
Index to identify which section I am currently in (based on the GET
variable) so that I can bold that when I write it to HTML as an indicator of
the current section.

Thanks for the code...I'll try it now.

Jake

On 6/6/02 11:17 PM, "Shashank Tripathi" <sub at shanx.com> wrote:

> Jacob,
>
> Try this somewhat kludgish code. But in general, I wonder why you really
> need to work with the string arrays anyway!
>
> Cheers,
> Shashank
>
>
> ---------
>
> <?php
>
> $myhref = "index.php";
> $sections = array ("case" => "case studies", "client" => "by client",
> "type"=> "by type");
> print_r($sections);
> echo "<p>";
>
> global $sections;
> global $myhref;
> echo"<p class=\"subWORK\"> ";
>
> $ctr = 0;
> foreach ($sections as $sectionID => $section)
> {
>
>   $ctr++;
>   echo"<a href=\"$myhref?$sectionID\"> $section</a> ";
>   if ($ctr <> sizeOf($sections))
>   {
>       echo" // ";
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> ?>

From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 01:27:01 2002
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Fri Jun  7 01:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Flash detection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F3979L5Px0sUrO0001a7ca@hotmail.com>

> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?flash.html
>
>Yep, that's the one I'm currently using.  I don't like the delay if Flash
>is not installed at all...

Which delay? There is no delay, just a quick check if Flash is installed
and, if so, which version.

Can you give the URL of the page you use it on?

ppk

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 09:31:00 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:31:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] CFLOCK help request
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020606222023.00bc8100@pop-server.houston.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPKEEHFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

susan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Susan Wallace
>
> I inherited a CF application that was customized for one
> site, and is being moved to a new server. The
> application was written using CFLOCK in this manner:
>
> <CFLOCK name="Session.UserID" timeout="10">
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

ah, you inherited an app from a developer that cared enough to lock shared
scope variable access, but didn't understand how locking actually works and
what the proper way to do it is.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> The server this was moved to throws an error (I'll
> outline in a sec) and when I inquired about the server
> settings for Locking, the reply I got was "The server is
> set for full locking."....
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

oh, and you also inherited a host that hasn't a clue about how to use the
locking checkboxes in the cfadmin.  full lock checking isn't actually full
lock checking like you'd think.  it doesn't catch *every* instance of shared
scope variable access.  it only checks those that are obvious.  can you spot
the shared scope variable access in the code sample below?

<cfif IsArray(myCart) AND ArrayLen(myCart)>
  You have #ArrayLen(myCart)# items in your cart.
</cfif>

don't feel bad if you can't spot it right off.  the coldfusion server can't
spot it at all.

still unsure?  want a hint?

see the line where i'm copying the session.cart array to the local variable
myCart?  complex values (usually) copy by reference, not by value.  what
that means is that myCart is just a pointer to session.cart.  so, whenever i
read myCart or make a change to myCart i'm reading/writing to the shared
scope variable.  that action should be locked, but the cf server doesn't
know to check it.

so, how do you avoid it?  use the Duplicate() function.  now, no matter the
datatype, it will be copied by value creating an entirely new copy of the
data and not a pointer.  you can then, safely, read and write to the local
variable without concerns over locking.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> <CFIF IsDefined("Session.CalendarID")>
>   <CFIF #Session.CalendarID# NEQ #Attributes.CalendarID#>
>     <CFLOCK name="Session.CalendarID" timeout="10">
>       <CFSET Session.CalendarID = #Attributes.CalendarID#>
>     </CFLOCK>
>     <CFSET Client.OptionsSet = "no">
>     <CFINCLUDE template="/calendar/common/act_options.cfm">
>   </CFIF>
> </CFIF>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

first, scan the code to see if the actions are all reads of shared scope
variables or if there are any writes to those shared scope variables.  if
there are only reads, a readonly lock will be enough.  however, if there's a
single write, you'll need an exclusive lock.

now, pull out the <cflock> in the code sample.

scan the code block again to determine where the first read/write is.
obviously the first line (<cfif IsDefined("session.calendarid")>) is a read.
so, place your opening lock there as an exclusive lock.  find the closing
</cfif> for this tag and place your closing </cflock> tag after it.  you've
successfully locked the shared scope variable reads/writes.

in summary, here's the corrected code sample (complete with the redundant
hashes removed -- less is best):

ps, i'll bet this block of code isn't inside a custom tag is it?  if not,
i'll bet there isn't a local variable named "attributes" that's a structure
is there?  if you're not sure, you can test it like this:

<cfoutput>
#IsStruct(attributes)#
</cfoutput>

my bets are that it's not a structure and you'll actually get an error
message stating that you're trying to access a variable that doesn't exist.

this is one of my pet peeves of the fusebox mentality.  it's lazy and
lingers on in many, many cf apps on the net.

don't worry about fixing that for now.  you've got big enough problems to
tackle with this locking issue.

good luck,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

From genghis at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 09:31:18 2002
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:31:18 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a05111b05b925d0e8c961@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAKEJKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Erik Mattheis
> Sent: 07 June 2002 03:59
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
>
> There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
> you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored. Discuss.

Erik,

You've kicked off long-running arguments with troll posts
like this before, but never so deliberately.  Please desist.

<tip>
http://themes.mozdev.org for less-fugly themes which
work with Mozilla 1.0
</tip>

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

From h.t.d at gmx.de  Fri Jun  7 09:35:03 2002
From: h.t.d at gmx.de (Howard The Duck)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:35:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] chinese inside macromedia homesite?
Message-ID: <3D00CE89.15755.251EDE@localhost>

> HomeSite 5 does in fact have full Unicode support.

Hm, well you're right. They crazily didn't enable this feature by default,
so opening unicode or utf-8 files normally ends up in a mess.
Paragraph below is from Macromedia.com

"If user deals with any file with Unicode, Unicode Big Endian and UTF-
8 encoding, check box of "Enable non-ANSI file encoding" in File
Settings (Options > Setting > File Settings) must be checked.
Otherwise, these non-ANSI file strings cannot be manipulated properly
by our editor. [27101] "

Actually this is kind of stupid from macromedia/allaire because now
there are some reviews that say HS5 does not support unicode.... like
at:
http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/unicode/htmlunicode.html

anyway - you an create chinese files in homesite, sorry for my
misinformation.
Yours
 HTD

From mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie  Fri Jun  7 09:38:01 2002
From: mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie (Michael Galvin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
Message-ID: <B9267DBE.1FA7%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>

I have a client who are currently being hosted satisfactorily.  I'm in the
process of getting them to register a few more domain names (while they're
still available and at the current price, how wrong can you go?), and
figured I would need to get in contact with their host company to determine
that they can mirror all these domain names to the original domain.

However, they have just informed me that I didn't even need to get in
contact with them, that when I'm registering the domain name, I should just
set it up so that the new domains names point to the IP address of the
original domain.  Shurely shome mishtake?

This would imply that I could go in, register devilsperm.com and redirect it
to microsoft.com for 50 bucks a year!  Okay, a fairly pointless and
relatively expensive 'joke', but I still can't believe that this sort of
thing is possible.

--
Michael Galvin
source visual thinking

From luminosity at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 09:38:08 2002
From: luminosity at members.evolt.org (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:38:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
Message-ID: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023460631.squirrel@members.evolt.org>

Since I'm reinstalling my OS again, I want to back all my files up. Where
are the preferences (especially bookmarks) for ns stored? also, where are
the local install files saved by default? I don't want to have to bother
downloading them again.

TIA

Lach
--------------------------------------
http://members.evolt.org/luminosity/
MSN: luminosity @ members.evolt.org
--------------------------------------

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Fri Jun  7 09:38:23 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:38:23 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <000001c20dcd$c9aa4070$cd71fea9@Cube>
Message-ID: <3D006233.8090605@cyberfuddle.com>

Beau Hartshorne wrote:

> Well, according to:
>
> http://www.nua.ie/surveys/how_many_online/
>
> it's estimated that there 544.2 million internet users in the world. The
> counter.com numbers only add up to about 399 million.
>
> People keep asking me how many NN 4 users are still out there. So I took
> the numbers from thecounter.com, and put them in an Excel sheet so I
> could get more accurate percentages. Then, I took these accurate
> percentages and multiplied them by the 544,200,000.
>
> It turns out that there's more like 24,300,871 NN 4 users out there,
> give our take a few million.
>
> Here's the rest of them:

Of course, *no-one* uses Mozilla, Lynx, Links, Dillo, Mosaic, Cello (I'm
sure some people still use it), or w3m, right?  And as for
screen-readers... ahh, forgetaboutit!

(said whilst using Mozilla for email and Lynx to read Owen whatsisname's
Design Rant)

:o)

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Fri Jun  7 09:38:31 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:38:31 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <B925A4A9.1A3A%jwalton@four09.org>
Message-ID: <3D006D08.9080900@cyberfuddle.com>

john-paul wrote:
>>~ use standard css, and just let the old browsers barf on it
>>
>>~ use only those css elements where none of the old browsers barf
>>
>>given those choices, the @import technique is better than nothing...
>
> true...
>
> although I prefer a simple php detect that gives cruddy browsers no CSS....

What if your browser-detect script goes wrong?  I've never seen a
flawless detect script (although, admittedly, PHP-based beats the hell
out of JavaScript-based).  Do you really want to hurt users of browsers
(like Mozilla, and Opera) that often fall through the gaps due to
ignorance, incompetence or (I hope this is the case most of the time)
sheer forgetfulness?

<tip type="posting" author="Mark Gallagher">
How to post is a very contentious issue (although less so on mailing
lists than newsgroups), however, a little common sense can go a long
way.  When posting in response to specific points, *don't* place your
response above the original post and then copy & paste the originals -
that leads to duplication, which leads to larger posts, which leads to
longer download time, which leads to frustration, which leads to anger,
which leads to hate, which leads to sufferring... and the Dark Side.
<cough />.

When posting short replies to short posts, it doesn't really matter if
you post on top or below the quoted text (personally, I prefer below).
However, if you want to respond to particular parts of a person's post,
then for &deity;'s sake think a little - it'll save you time, and be
*much* easier on the rest of us.
</tip>

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Fri Jun  7 09:38:39 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:38:39 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <B9259864.1A24%jwalton@four09.org>
Message-ID: <3D00635A.2040607@cyberfuddle.com>

john-paul wrote:
>>why not just develop for standards compliant browsers, and use the @import
>>technique, thus letting the netscape 4 people see a simple page?
>
> ugh... the @import technique solves the NS4 problem, but it doesn't solve
> the same problem in several other browsers still in use... ie4.x/win for
> one...

I know from experience that

@import "foo.css";

isn't understood by IE4 - I only found it out by accident (surfing in
IE4 - shock horror!), simply because I'd defaulted to "" because I
thought it was easier to remember and use.

@import (foo.css);

Or whatever the other version is won't block IE4, it's true.

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Fri Jun  7 09:39:00 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:39:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
References: <B9254828.141BF%kathy@site-etc.com>
Message-ID: <3D00C57B.4050009@cyberfuddle.com>

Kathy Long wrote:
 > I know this is an old question, so forgive me for asking again, but I
have a
 > client who wants his site designed for 1024 x 768 (meaning it can NOT
 > squeeze into anything smaller), and it goes against my grain. Everyone he
 > knows is at that resolution (he's a programmer), so he thinks most
everyone
 > else is as well. I told him I'd ask and see what others think.

It's true that in many cases 1024x768 is replacing 800x600.  But I think
the overwhelming majority of people still use 800x600.  It's hard to get
reliable statistics here, as (at least, AIUI) very few UAs actually tell
the server what resolution is running.

But ask your client to consider: what if they're running 1024x768, but
using windowed browsers?  What if they've got several docks going?
Until very recently I was running something like 1023x920 browser window
size (maximised) on a 1280x768 screen, simply because of all my docks.

> It's a children's bookstore, so given that his audience is mostly young
 > parents, does anyone have any idea what the norm would be for that
group? He
 > doesn't care about the people who will have to scroll right - as long as
 > that isn't the majority. Will that be the case?

Hard to generalise, but I'd guess most'd have reasonably new computers,
but not know how to change from the defaults.  As Windows (at least,
Win95/98... dunno about the others) and X (at least, Redhat/Mandrake's
versions) default to 800x600 regardless of monitor size, it's quite
likely they'd be stuck to 800x600.

I was watching my mother's boss (a small business owner, reasonably
computer-literate) use the Internet a little while ago, and she was
running IE (4 or 5, I couldn't tell) on Windows 98 at 800x600.  It just
never occurred to her that she could or should change her browser and/or
resolution.

Exercise for the list: think back to when you were on 800x600 (or,
&deity; forbid, 640x480 or smaller running Win3.11/early Mac OS) using
the default browser (if there was one).  Of course, now that we've all
learnt that, yes, there is a world where you have a *lot* more screen
real estate, and you *don't* have to be tied down with the shackles of
IE (or, for those "veterans", Netscape/Mosaic), and it seems shocking to
go back to The Way We Was.  But before then, we (or, at least, I) were
quite happy with our small screens with large text and primitive
browsers.  Why would a newbie to the computing world feel any different?

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From evolt at gmx.net  Fri Jun  7 09:39:11 2002
From: evolt at gmx.net (Gijs van Tulder)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:39:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] evoltspotting
Message-ID: <KNEOKJCOCHEDPIMPAIMIAEBHCLAA.evolt@gmx.net>

http://dev.nexen.net/news/gen.php3/2002/06/04/709,0,1,0,0.html

From Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Fri Jun  7 09:40:01 2002
From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS: Mozilla and NS6.2 not loading stylesheet
Message-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC2032FC950@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

> for some reason, one that i can't figure out why, mozilla rc3
> and nn6.2 are not loading the stylesheet, let alone 90% of
> the graphics.
>
> what is going on ?

This could because the server is setting the incorrect MIME type for the
files.
<http://developer.netscape.com/evangelism/docs/technotes/incorrect-mime-
types/>

--
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------

From K_HEYTINK at winebow.com  Fri Jun  7 09:41:00 2002
From: K_HEYTINK at winebow.com (Kathleen Heytink)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:41:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
Message-ID: <06154D6549B7D5119FC100508BB02DED27A81B@nj10-exchange.winebow.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: isaac [mailto:isaac at members.evolt.org]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:39 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] More copied sites
> This guy took both our branding and design, but didn't use
> our CMS source
> code or any of the other code provided on the page you
> referenced (which are
> available to use).

Um - but he/they are stealing your bandwidth.  If you check the source code,
many of the graphics are coming from the Evolt server.  He/they didn't
bother to copy them to their own.

I'd be reaaaaly ticked about that

-- Kath ...
work --> www.winebow.com
home --> www.cyber-kat.com --> topkat at cyber-kat.com --

From info at kostaldesign.de  Fri Jun  7 09:43:05 2002
From: info at kostaldesign.de (Kostal Design | Sebastian Kostal)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:43:05 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites
In-Reply-To: <000901c20da9$d291a670$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <B926441A.E53%info@kostaldesign.de>

> But, it is a blatant copy. I don't know what anyone can do about it.
> --Burhan
>

We could all pretend we were potential clients whom they suddenly loose
because we realized he stole the design.

Sebastian

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 09:43:14 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:43:14 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP String Indexed Arrays
In-Reply-To: <B9259F65.DA%mail_lists@jakesdiner.com>
Message-ID: <000201c20df9$6b31aa70$6701a8c0@neonreactor>

I'm from the 'if it works, it's elegant enough' school of programming.

Progress, not perfection.

Why don't you...

A) output each item in the array + a trailing \ (or /...whatever) to a
string variable, $output

B) use $output = substr($output, 0, -1) to return everything except the
last character (which would be the offending, unnecessary \ (or
/...whatever). http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.substr.php

Yes, it's innefficient...but it works.

I guess my real point is that there is always more than one way to get
to the 'right' answer.

Hth,
John Corry

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 09:43:21 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:43:21 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <3D000175.7779.9AB4B8A4@localhost>
Message-ID: <000301c20dfa$6f5aec50$6701a8c0@neonreactor>

> > I have found that most of my sites' visitors are at 800x600 too.
>
> really?  so what's their window size?
>
> i ask that, of course, because my own research showed that at
> 800x600, users had a mean available viewport of 719x397, and
> at 1,024x768, they had a mean viewport of 881x539...

OK...wow, you do a *really* good job.

For me, just knowing that they have ~800x600 of available screen real
estate is enough.

I'm actually totally neurotic and obsessive about *some* things (like my
'Morning Edition' coffee mug that I got at a NPR fundraiser attended by
Bob Edwards himself...small, intimate atmosphere...what an
experience)...my viewers window size when they visit my site is not one
of them.

We have absolutely no control over that.

I usually start with a table that is eiher fixed width ( at 740px) or
scales up with no horizontal scrolling above 700-740px.

I try not to position navigation elements so they'll get cut off the
right if a users window is smaller than my site.

Sometimes, if browser compatibility of formatting is not an issue, I use
CSS and <div>s so no matter what size the window, the content is
readable with no scrolling...thats a really nice way to do it.

I think there's no 'right' answer here...and that in time our philosophy
on this matter will change (regardless our current position).

John Corry
Neon Cowboy Design
http://www.neoncowboy.com
mail : john at neoncowboy.com
phone : 808.572.8494

From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 09:44:01 2002
From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:44:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] php writing to a file
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOENCCNAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCMEFMCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>

ignore this..... why is it being posted now?  This was sent a very long time
ago!!!

Andrew
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Fri Jun  7 09:45:00 2002
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:45:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Your Page is Expired, but...
Message-ID: <015d01c20e07$2f4a17a0$0101c80a@hershel>

I am sending out pages via CGI which expire instantly.  These pages however
are in a frame.  If the user has been working in our system and is on his
fifth page in this frame and he then presses Back on his browser, he gets a
message that his page has expired and he should press Refresh.  The problem
is that if he presses Refresh, he will refresh the entire frameset,
including the JS-heavy navigation frame, and he will end up back at page 1,
not page 4 as he wants.

Any suggestions as to what I can do?  Is it possible to change the page
expired message?

location.replace() is not really an option because we have a lot of FORMs
already in place which I don't want to have to change.

Thanks,
Hershel

From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com  Fri Jun  7 09:46:01 2002
From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
In-Reply-To: <B9267DBE.1FA7%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>
Message-ID: <003c01c20e31$fdffeeb0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>

[snip]
However, they have just informed me that I didn't even need to get in
contact with them, that when I'm registering the domain name, I should just
set it up so that the new domains names point to the IP address of the
original domain.  Shurely shome mishtake?
[/snip]

Find another hosting company because this one is clueless. You can have
multiple domains point to one IP, but this information still has to be
contained in the DNS server, which I would suppose resides at your hosting
company. You can set up virtual hosts on your servers, but if the DNS server
doesn't know how to resolve the name it is worthless.

HTH!

Jay

From Evolt at ZName.com  Fri Jun  7 09:47:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
In-Reply-To: <B9267DBE.1FA7%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMOEMAANAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

====================
This would imply that I could go in, register devilsperm.com and redirect it
to microsoft.com for 50 bucks a year!
====================

$50.00 per year?

You can register a domain name for $8.88 per year at
http://www.NameCheap.com

And that includes FREE URL forwarding and FREE email forwarding which would
let you register devilsperm.com and redirect it to microsoft.com for $8.88
per year.

James S. Huggins

...

From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com  Fri Jun  7 09:49:01 2002
From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAKEJKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <004401c20e32$7f1e48c0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>

[snip]
http://themes.mozdev.org for less-fugly themes which work with Mozilla 1.0
</tip>

Boy, this site is slow, slow, slow....maybe a question of popularity with
the release of 1.0?

Jay

From Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com  Fri Jun  7 09:50:01 2002
From: Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com (Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] site mapping utility recommendation
Message-ID: <OF3F44BA5A.330A41CC-ON85256BD1.00513C33@beaerospace.com>

I'm looking for a freeware / shareware site mapping utility to use.  I
would like a kind of graphical output or basic tree structure.  If anyone
knows one they would recommend I appreciate it.

Thanks,
-Ron

From chris at setmajer.com  Fri Jun  7 09:54:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206070009240.26045-100000@eris.io.com>
Message-ID: <C7FDE418-7A01-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 07:17 AM, Ben Henick wrote:

>> ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
>> use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN 4.x
>> with JS disabled barf on it
>
> Been there, done that.  Doesn't work.

Say wha? I prefer the @import technique (and using quotes or not,
url() syntax or not) to filter where possible, but I've seen the JS
technique work in Opera 5+. Try <http://www.einfachfueralle.de> and
<http://www.aktion-mensch.de/pls/lotterie/of_lotterie.home>.

> Opera, you see, barfs on that... while Opera does have its quirks, it
> offers the best CSS support out there (and is a bunch of other neat,
> userfriendly things, though decent JavaScript support is not one
> of them).

Agreed on the user-friendly things and so-so JS, but Mozilla (and
other Gecko-based browsers) and Mac IE 5 both compare favorably
with Opera.

Opera is very good. Moz and Mac IE are generally better.

> I've made up my mind that PITA or not, refusing CSS rules to Opera is a
> Bad Thing.  (JS code is another story entirely.)

Agreed.

> You can do this instead:  write your CSS stylesheet, overwrite the
> values
> for Netscape 4 by LINKing a second JSSS stylesheet,

Why overwrite? Just use don't put anything 'controversial' in a
<link>ed stylesheet. @import that stuff. I typically use the
following:

chris.kaminski { functionNewMedia :: <http://www.function.de> }

From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Fri Jun  7 09:58:00 2002
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Fri Jun  7 09:58:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] CFLOCK help request
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020606222023.00bc8100@pop-server.houston.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002101c20e24$2c43fd60$6561a8c0@vader>

It looks the server is set to require locking - so you need to add a
lock around the entire cfif block - because isDefined is like a read.

Unfortunately, you may also do a write inside, so, things get a bit
complex. Here is my rewrite, it's just one of the ways you can do it.

> <CFIF IsDefined("Session.CalendarID")>
>
> 		<CFIF #Session.CalendarID# NEQ #Attributes.CalendarID#>
> 			<CFLOCK name="Session.CalendarID" timeout="10">
> 				<CFSET Session.CalendarID =
> #Attributes.CalendarID#>
> 			</CFLOCK>
> 			<CFSET Client.OptionsSet = "no">
> 			<CFINCLUDE
> template="/calendar/common/act_options.cfm">
> 		</CFIF>
> 	</CFIF>

-Raymond

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Susan Wallace
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:31 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] CFLOCK help request
>
>
> Greetings!
>
> I inherited a CF application that was customized for one
> site, and is being
> moved to a new server. The application was written using
> CFLOCK in this manner:
>
> <CFLOCK name="Session.UserID" timeout="10">
>
> The server this was moved to throws an error (I'll outline in
> a sec) and
> when I inquired about the server settings for Locking, the
> reply I got was
> "The server is set for full locking."....
>
> So, in the way of troubleshooting I loaded the main page, got
> the error:
>

From Evolt at ZName.com  Fri Jun  7 10:07:00 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:07:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
In-Reply-To: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMCEMEANAB.Top1@ZName.com>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMCEMFANAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

======================
[snip]
However, they have just informed me that I didn't even need to get in
contact with them, that when I'm registering the domain name, I should just
set it up so that the new domains names point to the IP address of the
original domain.  Shurely shome mishtake?
[/snip]

VERY true. The "forwarding" I mentioned earlier is different in that it does
NOT point to the IP address, but is a URL redirect.

HOWEVER,, you do not HAVE to use the DNS server at your host.

For example, you could pay for DNS server services at a provider separate
from your host and THAT might let you do what they discussed because YOU
would control the DNS.

OR, you could use the free DNS server feature at NameCheap
(http://www.NameCheap.com) mentioned earlier.

See this article http://www.cyberwingers.net/external-dns/namecheap.html

James S. Huggins

...

From mike at nthwave.net  Fri Jun  7 10:10:01 2002
From: mike at nthwave.net (Michael Mell)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:10:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why? [OT: lemmings]
References: <NDBBLLCLKJDNHHNPAAHHGEDMDPAA.Ed@ComSimplicity.com>
Message-ID: <3D00CCA4.7A4DD3B6@nthwave.net>

Ed McCarroll wrote:

> > IMHO, those who go along with MS are just lemmings
> > waiting for the butcher (Gates' gang) to enter the
> > room and take care of business.
>
> I beg your pardon!  Us lemmings most definitely do not
> wait for the butcher; we have this thing we do with an

http://www.snopes2.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm
Claim:   During the filming of the 1958 Disney nature documentary White
           Wilderness, the film crew induced lemmings into jumping off a
cliff and into
           the sea in order to document their supposedly suicidal
behavior.

Status:   True.

Origins:   Lemming suicide is fiction. Contrary to popular belief,
lemmings do
           not periodically hurl themselves off of cliffs . . .
--
mike[at]nthwave.net
llemekim         YahooIM
415.455.8812     voice
419.735.1167     fax

From max at prodok.com  Fri Jun  7 10:12:00 2002
From: max at prodok.com (Max Wyss)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:12:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
References: <2XJHYU97KP4W43ICHDGF3YYXKZYFE.3d001567@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <a0511170cb926403720a7@[209.190.208.50]>

Well, dear ranter, many of those poor "misguided" individuals have to
use Netscape 4.x because they are not allowed to use any other
browser, because Netscape 4.x is the only browser their IT types
allow.

Consider bein in a big organization with a very tight control over
the individual computers, there is no freedom of choice of a
browser... you have to use what you get.

And considering some "approval" procedures, those poor individuals
might have to remain on their (definitely nowadays) rather obsolete
browser for another year...

Max Wyss
PRODOK Engineering
Low Paper workflows, Smart documents, PDF forms
CH-8906 Bonstetten, Switzerland

Fax:  +41 1 700 20 37
   or  +1 815 425 6566
e-mail:  mailto:max at prodok.com
http://www.prodok.com

[ Building Bridges for Information ]

______________________

>OK, Ive just been looking at www.thecounter.com and the browser
>stats over the past
>6 months and have 1 major question.
>
><rant type="fickle">
>
>Why the fuck do 16606594 misguided individuals still use Netscape 4.x??
>
>it would make our lives SOOOooo much easier if they just gave in and
>got a decent browser
>
></rant>
>

From minid at weblogs.com.ar  Fri Jun  7 10:12:11 2002
From: minid at weblogs.com.ar (mini-d)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:12:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] site mapping utility recommendation
In-Reply-To: <OF3F44BA5A.330A41CC-ON85256BD1.00513C33@beaerospace.com>
Message-ID: <002301c20e35$849db9e0$0b00a8c0@diego>

Someone in the list posted this last week i guess

http://www.xtreeme.com/sitexpert/search.html

Very good. And cheap.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]
En nombre de Ron_Senykoff at beaerospace.com
Enviado el: viernes, 07 de junio de 2002 16:49
Para: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Asunto: [thelist] site mapping utility recommendation

I'm looking for a freeware / shareware site mapping utility to use.  I
would like a kind of graphical output or basic tree structure.  If
anyone knows one they would recommend I appreciate it.

Thanks,
-Ron

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt !

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 10:17:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:17:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash movie embedding
Message-ID: <3D035301@mail.totalise.co.uk>

Hi again guys,

I really have no experience using flash whatsoever and have to place a flash
applet into a page Im making...

Could somebody please indicate how I do this??

the page URL is
http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=7

and the current code doesnt seem to work, at least on the cpu Im using

Cheers

Dan

------------------------
- Daniel Fascia -

18 Gayfield Sq,
Edinburgh,
EH13NX

+447971541842 (mobile)
------------------------

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 10:19:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:19:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLLCLKJDNHHNPAAHHIEDMDPAA.Ed@ComSimplicity.com>
Message-ID: <DB86GMHE1TNJZU7C8QP61NLXRYS65.3d00a736@DANFASCIA-21>

f*&% is a creative emphatic word which is in the top 10 used words in the English language.

It can be offensive and emphatic... I use it purely as emphasis... but I guess we can do
without if it fires off corporate filters ;-)

>> > Why the #&@! do 16606594 misguided individuals ...
>
><tipp type=preach>
>Profanity is perceived, by many, as offensive.  For this
>reason, it can distract readers from what may be a valid
>point.
></tipp>

^^^ a little anal maybe...

From david_kutcher at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 10:19:11 2002
From: david_kutcher at hotmail.com (David Kutcher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:19:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
References: <B9267DBE.1FA7%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>
Message-ID: <LAW2-OE31lpyvsE3jK800006955@hotmail.com>

Firstly, if you're spending more than say $11 on a domain, you're getting
hosed.

Two, well, it depends on how the server is configured.  If they are running
apache with no virtualhosts, then yes, all the domains would just go to the
one site folder.

However, if they're running apache with virtualhosts, then no, they would
need to add the virtualhost container for each of those new domains.

And if they're running IIS 5+, for each domain, you need to control that the
server recognizes the domain and points it to the correct directory of info.

So, depending on the server software being used and how the site is being
hosted, it can be a very easy to more exhausting job.  You should read about
virtualhost, ip based virtualhosting, and IIS server configurations.

David
www.confluentforms.com

From nparrot at pair.com  Fri Jun  7 10:21:01 2002
From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [PHP] Include statements on IIS 5. Solved the hard way
References: <000d01c20c4f$e0f88bd0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <009701c20e1f$afc82620$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>

Just to keep people updated on this one:

> >The installation is croaking on include statements with errors similar
> to
> >this one
> >Warning:  Failed opening 'docs/COPYING.txt' for inclusion
> >(include_path='c:\php4\pear') in
> D:\web\bikerscout.net\html\install\gui.php
> >on line 485

Turns out the host has the wrong include statement in php.ini. There is no
reason why IIS 5 should behave differently as far as includes are concerned.
It's just a badly set up server. And when I asked them to fix it, even
giving them links to php.net on how to deal with include paths, they
refused, stating that adding a .  (a dot) to the INCLUDE_PATH would give me
access to their C: root.

We're changing hosts...

Nicole

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Fri Jun  7 10:21:11 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:21:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
In-Reply-To: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023460631.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
References: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023460631.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:37:11 +1000 (EST)
"Lachlan Cannon" <luminosity at members.evolt.org> wrote:

> Since I'm reinstalling my OS again, I want to back all my files
> up. Where are the preferences (especially bookmarks) for ns stored?
> also, where are the local install files saved by default? I don't
> want to have to bother downloading them again.

Which OS? Which Netscape?

My copy of Netscape 4.x (Debian Linux [Sid]) stores its user settings in
$HOME/.netscape/, the bookmarks being in
$HOME/.netscape/bookmarks.html

My local install files are in /var/cache/apt/archives, the file names
being:

netscape-base-477_4.77-2_i386.deb
netscape-base-4_1%3a4.77-2_i386.deb
netscape-java-477_4.77-2_all.deb
netscape-smotif-477_4.77-2_i386.deb

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From david_kutcher at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 10:23:01 2002
From: david_kutcher at hotmail.com (David Kutcher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Many domain names pointing to one
References: <003c01c20e31$fdffeeb0$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt>
Message-ID: <LAW2-OE67VvLVKi3s1w00000326@hotmail.com>

Jay, you would "suppose", but this isn't necessarily true.  Some registrars
also handle the DNS hosting... or atleast the more expensive ones do.

David
www.confluentforms.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Blanchard" <jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com>
> Find another hosting company because this one is clueless. You can have
> multiple domains point to one IP, but this information still has to be
> contained in the DNS server, which I would suppose resides at your hosting
> company.

From darren at web-bitch.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 10:33:01 2002
From: darren at web-bitch.co.uk (darren)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:33:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [SQL] using a char string as a list
In-Reply-To: <BHEEINGNABLHPFNMKPFPEEKICAAA.ethanol@mathlab.sunysb.edu>
References: <BHEEINGNABLHPFNMKPFPEEKICAAA.ethanol@mathlab.sunysb.edu>
Message-ID: <384094727.20020607110533@web-bitch.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002 at 05:54, Sean G. wrote:

SG> As far as I can tell, the variable is okay.  When I print and cut-n-paste
SG> the value into a query, I get the expected results.  However calling the
SG> variable in the query always returns 0 matches.

you can't just drop the variable into the select like that.  you have
to either build up an sql string and execute it using exec or
sp_executesql:

DECLARE @SQLString varchar(2000)

SET @SQLString = 'select
                        count(UnitKey) as blah
                     from
                        vUnitSort
                     where
                        UnitAbbrev in (@UnitList)'

EXEC(@SQLString)

(i can't remember the exact syntax for sp_executesql at the mo, but
look in bol for a detailed description...it's more efficient if you're
running the same sql string several times with different parameter as
you shouldn't have the sproc recompiling)

or you can chop up your string on a delimiter:

DECLARE @UnitList varchar(50)
   SET @UnitList = 'AME,RE'

DECLARE @tblUnits table (Unit varchar(10))
   DECLARE @len int, @currPos int, @prevPos int

SET @len = len(@UnitList) + 1

if @len = 1
   begin
      set @ReturnVal = 1
      return
   end
   else
   begin
      set @currPos = 1
      set @prevPos = @currPos

while @currPos < @len + 1
      begin
         if substring(@UnitList + ',', @currPos, 1) = ','
         begin
            INSERT INTO @tblUnits(Unit)
               SELECT substring(@UnitList, @prevPos, @currPos - @prevPos)

set @prevPos = @currPos + 1
         end
         set @currPos = @currPos + 1
      end
   end

then do your select taking into account the values in the temp table:

select
      count(UnitKey) as blah
   from
      vUnitSort as us
   where
      exists (select null from @tblUnits where Unit = us.UnitKey)

select
      count(UnitKey) as blah
   from
      vUnitSort as us
   inner join @tblUnits as tu
      on us.UnitKey = tu.Unit

sql server seems to optimize them to the same thing.

in the case of the exec and sp_executesql you need to make sure that
the user specified in the connection string has permissions to select
from the relevant tables as the execute runs under *their* permissions
not those of the sproc owner.  the second method will run under the
permissions of the sproc owner (usually dbo).  this may be an issue if
you're trying to restrict the access of the users.

hth,

darren

From chaositec at chaositec.dk  Fri Jun  7 10:33:09 2002
From: chaositec at chaositec.dk (Fabian Olesen)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:33:09 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & post form problem
In-Reply-To: <20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
References: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023460631.squirrel@members.evolt.org> 
	<20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <1023463985.16256.13.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>

hi..

I have a problem with posting a form to the same php script, i can
easily do it, if i use

input type=submit

and then check it with

if(isset($_POST['submit']))
{
...
}

but if i want an image to be pressable, and i use

input type=image src=image

then how do i catch it, it works fine with the submit type, but i cant
seem to figure out what goes wrong when i try to catch it with the image
in place instead.

ive search google... asked friends.. but the all fail in giving a hint
or a solution on how to get it done...

Fabian Olesen

From chris.price at stl.org  Fri Jun  7 10:34:00 2002
From: chris.price at stl.org (Chris Price)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:34:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Screen capture on my Mac
Message-ID: <CBB8B540170D75499D58710611143DEC6024FD@ntmail2k.ntstl.stl.org>

Joel

Cmd+Shift+3 grabs the entire screen.

If you hold down Cmd+Shift+4 you get a cross.

If you click and drag to select the part of the screen you want captured
you will hear the familiar camera click and you will have a cropped pic on your hd.

I have an alias of Photoshop on my desktop
so if I drop the 'Picture..' on top of the Photoshop icon it opens in Photoshop.

Did you also know that if you copy an area in Photoshop, create a new image, then paste into this new image, it will fit exaclty.
--
Chris Price
chris.price at stl.org

> ----------
>
	Joel wrote

> Have pity on a Mac neophyte: All I want to do is grab some screen caps. I
> have the website open in IE, press Command(that goofy squiggle+Shift+4 and
> then pop over to PhotoShop to paste, and the 'paste' option is greyed out.
>
> Am I correct that Cmd+Shift+3 is the whole screen and Cmd+Shift+4 is the
> active window?
>
> Am I missing something real obvious?

From mark at markgroen.com  Fri Jun  7 10:37:01 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:37:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash movie embedding
In-Reply-To: <3D035301@mail.totalise.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D006FE4.28701.630328@localhost>

> the page URL is
> http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion
> =clinical&page=7
>
> and the current code doesnt seem to work, at least on the cpu Im using
>
Just a quick guess here, but in Flash I've worked on <PARAM name="PLAY"
value="false"> isn't part of the code in the final page. Try removing the two
instances of that and see what happens.

HTH!

From mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie  Fri Jun  7 10:41:00 2002
From: mgalvin at sourcevisualthinking.ie (Michael Galvin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:41:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Flash detection
Message-ID: <B9269273.1FAA%mgalvin@sourcevisualthinking.ie>

> Which delay? There is no delay, just a quick check if Flash is installed and,
> if so, which version.

Looking at the code, I appreciate that it's probably more down to the
non-Flash PC we're using for testing this sort of thing than the actual JS
involved.  But I'm just not happy with the result (and in fact, it seems to
have got worse recently), so I was hoping that there might be a better way
of doing things without checking mimetypes, etc.

I suppose I'd be safest using a small Flash movie and a meta refresh to sort
things out, but this does mean doing different versions of the site,
something I wanted to avoid.

--
Michael Galvin
source visual thinking

From axe at suburbia.com.au  Fri Jun  7 10:54:01 2002
From: axe at suburbia.com.au (Chris)
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & post form problem
In-Reply-To: <1023463985.16256.13.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>
Message-ID: <DMEJICKICFHPCFLPFDJOMEKOCAAA.axe@suburbia.com.au>

<snip>
input type=submit

and then check it with

if(isset($_POST['submit']))
{
...
}
</snip>

=================

Instead of checking using your method to check if the form has been
submitted, you could try the following:

if ($REQUEST_METHOD=='POST') {
...
}

Regards,
Chris

From Evolt at ZName.com  Fri Jun  7 10:57:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Fri Jun  7 10:57:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] site mapping utility recommendation
In-Reply-To: <002301c20e35$849db9e0$0b00a8c0@diego>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIENBANAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

========================
I'm looking for a freeware / shareware site mapping utility to use.  I
would like a kind of graphical output or basic tree structure.  If
anyone knows one they would recommend I appreciate it.
=========================

Xenu, the link checker, will output a basic tree structure, in text format.

It is not the primary purpose of the tool (the primary purpose is to be the
best free link checker, and it is).

But the site map listing is valuable.

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html

James S. Huggins

...

From chris at setmajer.com  Fri Jun  7 11:04:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:04:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a0511170cb926403720a7@[209.190.208.50]>
Message-ID: <4D60A9C5-7A2F-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:52 PM, Max Wyss wrote:

> Consider bein in a big organization with a very tight control over
> the individual computers, there is no freedom of choice of a
> browser... you have to use what you get.

Like, say, the German military, where NN4.x on WinNT4 is the *only*
allowed combination for workstations....

chris.kaminski { functionNewMedia :: <http://www.function.de> }

From chris at setmajer.com  Fri Jun  7 11:09:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:09:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D00635A.2040607@cyberfuddle.com>
Message-ID: <17AD2C86-7A30-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 09:40 AM, Mark Gallagher wrote:

> I know from experience that
>
>   @import "foo.css";
>
> isn't understood by IE4

But /is/ understood by Mac IE 4.5, if ya wanna be picky about it.

chris.kaminski { functionNewMedia :: <http://www.function.de> }

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:26:00 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:26:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
Message-ID: <20020607162540.93153.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com>

There seems to be a limit to the size you can set a DIV or SPAN. I want to set one to about 12 x
8, but it seems like once I get to around 10 or 12, it won't go any smaller. Is this simply the
limit of how small you can set the element? Or is there some padding/border issues that I have to
set to make it smaller?

Tom

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com  Fri Jun  7 11:31:01 2002
From: BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com (Bret Daniel)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
Message-ID: <2B0CF44FC7E8D3118B4900508BA599EFAD8F06@smtp.chemnavigator.com>

Hi tom,

is that for character height???

if so..  I have managed to get smaller hieghts with divs by placing a <BR>
at the end of the text or graphic

hope that helps

-Bret

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:26 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span

There seems to be a limit to the size you can set a DIV or SPAN. I want to
set one to about 12 x
8, but it seems like once I get to around 10 or 12, it won't go any smaller.
Is this simply the
limit of how small you can set the element? Or is there some padding/border
issues that I have to
set to make it smaller?

Tom

From michael at tapinternet.com  Fri Jun  7 11:33:00 2002
From: michael at tapinternet.com (Michael Kimsal)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:33:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] CFLOCK help request
References: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPKEEHFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3D00E044.9060705@tapinternet.com>

.jeff wrote:

>
>this is one of my pet peeves of the fusebox mentality.  it's lazy and
>lingers on in many, many cf apps on the net.
>
>
>

Jeff,

Could you elaborate on this just a bit more?  I'm not trying to get
into a FB-bashing session, but I've been dealing with some people that
are really
geeked about it and want to migrate everything to that model, and
I'd like some critical input as well.  Everything I see about it is
generally
glowing.

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:38:00 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:38:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
In-Reply-To: <2B0CF44FC7E8D3118B4900508BA599EFAD8F06@smtp.chemnavigator.com>
Message-ID: <20020607163716.35973.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com>

No, actually I think I was not very clear - let me rephrase.

I want to use a DIV or SPAN as a really small "graphical" element on a page. Basically, like 10 x
8 pixels in size TOTAL. It would have a background color and would be visible as basically a small
square.

The issue is, once I get to about 12 x 12 or so, I cannot seem to set it any smaller. The last
couple of pixels make all the difference to what I need to do.

I tried using clipping, which doesn't seem to work for some reason, and setting margin and border
to 0px which does not help either. I'm just wondering if this is a limitation of the DIV or CSS,
like some minimum size, but that seems odd to me.

Tom
--- Bret Daniel <BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com> wrote:
> Hi tom,
>
> is that for character height???
>
> if so..  I have managed to get smaller hieghts with divs by placing a <BR>
> at the end of the text or graphic
>
> <DIV style="<< CSS stuff >>">text<BR></DIV>
>
> hope that helps
>
> -Bret
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:26 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
>
>
> There seems to be a limit to the size you can set a DIV or SPAN. I want to
> set one to about 12 x
> 8, but it seems like once I get to around 10 or 12, it won't go any smaller.
> Is this simply the
> limit of how small you can set the element? Or is there some padding/border
> issues that I have to
> set to make it smaller?
>
> Tom
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From evolt at pixelwright.com  Fri Jun  7 11:38:08 2002
From: evolt at pixelwright.com (James Aylard)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:38:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
References: <20020607162540.93153.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c20e41$9dc19d90$2860398a@newcos.com>

Tom,

> There seems to be a limit to the size you can set a DIV or SPAN. I want to
set one to about 12 x
> 8, but it seems like once I get to around 10 or 12, it won't go any
smaller. Is this simply the
> limit of how small you can set the element? Or is there some
padding/border issues that I have to
> set to make it smaller?

What browser/platform are we talking about (often makes a difference
when discussing CSS)? For IE/Win32, the browser seems to require that the
div contain some content (either a non-breaking space --   -- or a
single-pixel transparent gif, for instance), and that line-height also be
set explicitly, to the desired height or smaller.

James Aylard

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:41:01 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:41:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span
In-Reply-To: <00b401c20e41$9dc19d90$2860398a@newcos.com>
Message-ID: <20020607164031.50491.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm trying to do this on IE5.5 (or 5) for the PC platform.

Tom
--- James Aylard <evolt at pixelwright.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> > There seems to be a limit to the size you can set a DIV or SPAN. I want to
> set one to about 12 x
> > 8, but it seems like once I get to around 10 or 12, it won't go any
> smaller. Is this simply the
> > limit of how small you can set the element? Or is there some
> padding/border issues that I have to
> > set to make it smaller?
>
>     What browser/platform are we talking about (often makes a difference
> when discussing CSS)? For IE/Win32, the browser seems to require that the
> div contain some content (either a non-breaking space --   -- or a
> single-pixel transparent gif, for instance), and that line-height also be
> set explicitly, to the desired height or smaller.
>
> James Aylard
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From chaositec at chaositec.dk  Fri Jun  7 11:43:01 2002
From: chaositec at chaositec.dk (Fabian Olesen)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:43:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & post form problem
In-Reply-To: <DMEJICKICFHPCFLPFDJOMEKOCAAA.axe@suburbia.com.au>
References: <DMEJICKICFHPCFLPFDJOMEKOCAAA.axe@suburbia.com.au>
Message-ID: <1023468162.16257.15.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>

fre, 2002-06-07 kl. 17:50 skrev Chris:

> Instead of checking using your method to check if the form has been
> submitted, you could try the following:
>
> if ($REQUEST_METHOD=='POST') {
> ...
> }

Thanks that solved my problem ;)

Fabian Olesen

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:43:09 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:43:09 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)
In-Reply-To: <20020607164031.50491.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020607164242.99749.qmail@web12608.mail.yahoo.com>

Here is the page I am working on, not much to it. I wanted to make it like 8 x 8:

====================================

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
<script>
function clearIt()
{
for(x=0;x<=20;x++)
	{
		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "green";
	}
}

function foo(img)
{
clearIt();
	setTimeout("x = 1" ,50);
	for(x=0;x<=img;x++)
	{
		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "red";
		percent = ((x / 20) * 100)
		oo = percent.toString();
		zz = oo.substr(0, 3)
		document.getElementById("p").innerHTML = zz;
	}

}

for(i=0;i<=20;i++)
{
document.write("<span id='" + i+ "' onclick='foo(this.id)' style='line-height: 8px; margin: 0px;
padding: 0px; border: 0px none; background-color: green; width: 8; height: 8; cursor: hand; clip:
rect(8 8 8 8);'></span><img src='white.gif'>");
}

document.write(" <span id='p' style='color: silver; font-family: verdana; font-size: 12px;
font-style: italic'></span>")
//--></script>
</head>
<body>
</body>
</html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From cparker at swatgear.com  Fri Jun  7 11:47:01 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS: Mozilla and NS6.2 not loading stylesheet
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE078182@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

> > for some reason, one that i can't figure out why, mozilla rc3
> > and nn6.2 are not loading the stylesheet, let alone 90% of
> > the graphics.
> >
> > what is going on ?
>
> This could because the server is setting the incorrect MIME
> type for the
> files.
> <http://developer.netscape.com/evangelism/docs/technotes/incor
> rect-mime-types/>

i'm using iis5 on this site. and although the iis5 server that this site
in question is running on is at my home, i checked the iis5 server that
is here at work and it's mime-type was by default set correctly. so i'm
still going to assume that the one at home is set incorrectly, but what
if it's not?

then where do i look?

thanks,
chris.

From BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com  Fri Jun  7 11:49:01 2002
From: BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com (Bret Daniel)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)
Message-ID: <2B0CF44FC7E8D3118B4900508BA599EFAD8F09@smtp.chemnavigator.com>

I think the line height adds 8px to the end of whatever is contained in the
SPAN element

try something like this..

also www.devguru.com has a very good list of functions etc..

-b

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:43 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)

Here is the page I am working on, not much to it. I wanted to make it like 8
x 8:

====================================

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
<script>
function clearIt()
{
for(x=0;x<=20;x++)
	{
		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "green";
	}
}

}

for(i=0;i<=20;i++)
{
document.write("<span id='" + i+ "' onclick='foo(this.id)'
style='line-height: 8px; margin: 0px;
padding: 0px; border: 0px none; background-color: green; width: 8; height:
8; cursor: hand; clip:
rect(8 8 8 8);'></span><img src='white.gif'>");
}

document.write(" <span id='p' style='color: silver; font-family:
verdana; font-size: 12px;
font-style: italic'></span>")
//--></script>
</head>
<body>
</body>
</html>

From BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com  Fri Jun  7 11:50:00 2002
From: BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com (Bret Daniel)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:50:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)
Message-ID: <2B0CF44FC7E8D3118B4900508BA599EFAD8F0A@smtp.chemnavigator.com>

of course, spell width correctly...geeze

-----Original Message-----
From: Bret Daniel [mailto:BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:50 AM
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)

I think the line height adds 8px to the end of whatever is contained in the
SPAN element

try something like this..

also www.devguru.com has a very good list of functions etc..

-b

Here is the page I am working on, not much to it. I wanted to make it like 8
x 8:

====================================

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
<script>
function clearIt()
{
for(x=0;x<=20;x++)
	{
		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "green";
	}
}

}

for(i=0;i<=20;i++)
{
document.write("<span id='" + i+ "' onclick='foo(this.id)'
style='line-height: 8px; margin: 0px;
padding: 0px; border: 0px none; background-color: green; width: 8; height:
8; cursor: hand; clip:
rect(8 8 8 8);'></span><img src='white.gif'>");
}

document.write(" <span id='p' style='color: silver; font-family:
verdana; font-size: 12px;
font-style: italic'></span>")
//--></script>
</head>
<body>
</body>
</html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:55:01 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 11:55:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)
In-Reply-To: <2B0CF44FC7E8D3118B4900508BA599EFAD8F09@smtp.chemnavigator.com>
Message-ID: <20020607165435.95519.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com>

The font-size setting took care of the problem, with no noeed for the max settings or anything
else inside the div. Thanks!

Tom
--- Bret Daniel <BDaniel at Chemnavigator.com> wrote:
> I think the line height adds 8px to the end of whatever is contained in the
> SPAN element
>
> try something like this..
>
> <SPAN style="font-size:4px; background-color:#FF0000; max-height:4px;
> max-widht:4px">    <br></SPAN>
>
> also www.devguru.com has a very good list of functions etc..
>
> -b
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Dell'Aringa [mailto:pixelmech at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:43 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] setting a small size for a div or span (example)
>
>
> Here is the page I am working on, not much to it. I wanted to make it like 8
> x 8:
>
> ====================================
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <script>
> function clearIt()
> {
> for(x=0;x<=20;x++)
> 	{
> 		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "green";
> 	}
> }
>
> function foo(img)
> {
> clearIt();
> 	setTimeout("x = 1" ,50);
> 	for(x=0;x<=img;x++)
> 	{
> 		document.getElementById(x).style.backgroundColor = "red";
> 		percent = ((x / 20) * 100)
> 		oo = percent.toString();
> 		zz = oo.substr(0, 3)
> 		document.getElementById("p").innerHTML = zz;
> 	}
>
> }
>
> for(i=0;i<=20;i++)
> {
> document.write("<span id='" + i+ "' onclick='foo(this.id)'
> style='line-height: 8px; margin: 0px;
> padding: 0px; border: 0px none; background-color: green; width: 8; height:
> 8; cursor: hand; clip:
> rect(8 8 8 8);'></span><img src='white.gif'>");
> }
>
> document.write(" <span id='p' style='color: silver; font-family:
> verdana; font-size: 12px;
> font-style: italic'></span>")
> //--></script>
> </head>
> <body>
> </body>
> </html>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From kathy at site-etc.com  Fri Jun  7 12:00:01 2002
From: kathy at site-etc.com (Kathy Long)
Date: Fri Jun  7 12:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats-customer response
In-Reply-To: <003b01c20e2a$71e036d0$210110ac@DeterministicNetworks.com>
Message-ID: <B92633D2.1421B%kathy@site-etc.com>

Sent your comments to my client and got this back this morning.

>>> I know this is an old question, so forgive me for asking again, but I
> have a
>>> client who wants his site designed for 1024 x 768 (meaning it can NOT
>>> squeeze into anything smaller) ...
>>> I told him I'd ask and see what others think.

>> Steve, here you go...
>>

I sent him your wise replies.
His response...

> From: "Hedgie's Techie" <techie at hedgehogbooks.com>
> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 06:50:33 -0700
> To: Kathy Long <kathy at site-etc.com>
> Subject: Re: response to my stats question
>
> Okay. You win.  Actually the site did squeeze into 800x600 before I added
> ...
>
Redesign is always better left in the hands of the professional. Now off to
redesign his redesign.

Thanks guys! :-)

--
SITE-etc
Instant Site Enhancements
831.335.7118
http://www.SITE-etc.com

Enabling and empowering your business. Simply. Affordably.

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Fri Jun  7 12:47:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 12:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] screen capture
Message-ID: <E17GNnw-00082M-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

> Did you also know that if you copy an area in Photoshop, create a new
> image, then paste into this new image, it will fit exaclty.

To be more precise, any time you open a new file in PhotoShop, the
default height & width it offers for the new file is whatever the
dimensions are of an image currently on the CLIPBOARD. It also
specifies 72dpi as the usual default, and most of us should change that
at least to 96 (for PC, rather than 72 for Mac), or to 300 if we're
aiming that graphic towards a printer.

Cheers --
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Fri Jun  7 13:00:04 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:00:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: posting etiquette
Message-ID: <E17GO17-0008Ko-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

> <tip type="posting" author="Mark Gallagher">
> How to post is a very contentious issue (although less so on mailing
> lists than newsgroups), however, a little common sense can go a long
> way.  When posting in response to specific points, *don't* place your
> response above the original post and then copy & paste the originals -
> that leads to duplication, which leads to larger posts, which leads to
> longer download time, which leads to frustration, which leads to
anger,
> which leads to hate, which leads to sufferring... and the Dark Side.
> <cough />.
>
> When posting short replies to short posts, it doesn't really matter if
> you post on top or below the quoted text (personally, I prefer below).
> However, if you want to respond to particular parts of a person's
post,
> then for &deity;'s sake think a little - it'll save you time, and be
> *much* easier on the rest of us.
> </tip>
I apologize for often posting on top of a person's post; it's actually
a problem for me to respond to posts at all. Most of the time I'm lying
in my bed working on my non-connected computer. I come to the kitchen
(where I'm only supposed to sit, even on my kneeling chair, for at most
45 minutes at a time) to read e-mail, upload pages, whatever. When I
have a chance to read this evolt's posts -- which I have setup to come
in digest form -- I don't have much time to respond. I try to be sure I
put the person's name in the CC: line, but often forget to look up the
subject properly, and so on. Apologies... I could just repond to the
individual who posted a problem or question, instead of to the list, if
that would be better.

Cheers --
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 13:15:01 2002
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:15:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] viewing document.write HTML souce code
Message-ID: <20020607181500.59919.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>

Is there anyway, if you are using document.write() to view the ACTUAL code that is written to the
page? Obviously view source shows you your code, but not what was actually written out.

Tom

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From evolt at pixelwright.com  Fri Jun  7 13:29:00 2002
From: evolt at pixelwright.com (James Aylard)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:29:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] viewing document.write HTML souce code
References: <20020607181500.59919.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010001c20e51$2f3de300$2860398a@newcos.com>

Tom,

> Is there anyway, if you are using document.write() to view the ACTUAL code
that is written to the
> page? Obviously view source shows you your code, but not what was actually
written out.

Do you mean, can you view your code _as modified_ by a document.write()
? If so, try this:

http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/detail/c/_/d/2946

James Aylard

From cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 13:44:01 2002
From: cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com (Pablo Oliva)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:44:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <F146U1Gj03oHMwVN7mi00019a98@hotmail.com>

Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.  What I am
trying to do is place three sets of images on the "same line", but after
closing a div tag you get a line break.  Any help is appreciated.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

From Greg.Cymbala at Den.Galileo.com  Fri Jun  7 13:46:01 2002
From: Greg.Cymbala at Den.Galileo.com (Cymbala, Greg)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <871387F74EDBD411BCCD00B0D079D3D9AE649A@DENEXC03>

<span> is what you need.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pablo Oliva [mailto:cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:43 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Cc: wdvltalk at lists.wdvl.com
Subject: [thelist] div elements

The information in this electronic mail message is sender's business
Confidential and may be legally privileged.  It is intended solely for the
addressee(s).  Access to this Internet electronic mail message by anyone
else is unauthorized.  If you are not the intended recipient, any
disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken
in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
The sender believes that this E-mail and any attachments were free of any
virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent. This message and
its attachments could have been infected during  transmission. By reading
the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full
responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and
other defects. Galileo International is not liable for any loss or damage
arising in any way from this message or its attachments.

From Greg.Cymbala at Den.Galileo.com  Fri Jun  7 13:47:01 2002
From: Greg.Cymbala at Den.Galileo.com (Cymbala, Greg)
Date: Fri Jun  7 13:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <871387F74EDBD411BCCD00B0D079D3D9AE649B@DENEXC03>

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  Sent it too fast.  Use <span> instead
of <div>.  It's basically the same, but isn't a "block-level" element.

From beau at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 14:03:01 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:03:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & post form problem
In-Reply-To: <1023468162.16257.15.camel@terminal.chaositec.dk>
Message-ID: <000101c20e55$cfeb5270$cd71fea9@Cube>

> > Instead of checking using your method to check if the form has been
> > submitted, you could try the following:
> >
> > if ($REQUEST_METHOD=='POST') {
> > ...
> > }
>
> Thanks that solved my problem ;)

I ran into this problem a long time ago, and I solved it by doing
something like this:

(notice the name attribute)

Is there anything wrong with this approach? Has anyone had trouble with
one or the other?

Thanks,

Beau

From cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 14:06:01 2002
From: cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com (Pablo Oliva)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:06:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <F286cR3a82L3IbiUltP00018788@hotmail.com>

I need a block level element thought because I have padding around each of
the 3 sets of items.  Is there any work-around?

>From: "Cymbala, Greg" <Greg.Cymbala at Den.Galileo.com>
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] div elements
>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:45:36 -0600
>
>Sorry, I should have been more clear.  Sent it too fast.  Use <span>
>instead
>of <div>.  It's basically the same, but isn't a "block-level" element.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Pablo Oliva [mailto:cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:43 PM
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Cc: wdvltalk at lists.wdvl.com
>Subject: [thelist] div elements
>
>
>Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.  What I am
>trying to do is place three sets of images on the "same line", but after
>closing a div tag you get a line break.  Any help is appreciated.
>
>
>The information in this electronic mail message is sender's business
>Confidential and may be legally privileged.  It is intended solely for the
>addressee(s).  Access to this Internet electronic mail message by anyone
>else is unauthorized.  If you are not the intended recipient, any
>disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be
>taken
>in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
>The sender believes that this E-mail and any attachments were free of any
>virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent. This message
>and
>its attachments could have been infected during  transmission. By reading
>the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full
>responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and
>other defects. Galileo International is not liable for any loss or damage
>arising in any way from this message or its attachments.
>
>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From rob.smith at thermon.com  Fri Jun  7 14:06:12 2002
From: rob.smith at thermon.com (Rob Smith)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:06:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <1AF1AE25FC71D411BDE100D0B774E5CA0207096E@smtmb.thermon.com>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]

do you have a pictorial example?

Rob

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From jen at meadoworks.com  Fri Jun  7 14:08:00 2002
From: jen at meadoworks.com (Jen Worden)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:08:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] PGP alternative
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020607160530.00a4a0d0@mail.meadoworks.com>

Hi Folks ...

Gah! Just learned that during the "upgrade from hell" my host doesn't (and
won't) have PGP 5 installed. (that was the version prior to the upgrade). I
had been using this for a small ecomm site that we managed and it worked
very nicely.

Can I install PGP myself? Is there another way of dealing with encrypted
email for CC numbers? If it sounds like I don't have a clue, I don't! This
site was our first (and last!) foray into the ecomm side of the biz
realizing that for a Mom & Pop Shop we were way out of our league.

Any help or ideas would be most appreciated!

ciao for now ... Jen

Jen Worden - Web Developer
meadoworks - http://www.meadoworks.com

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 14:12:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:12:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a05111b05b925d0e8c961@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <AE378EE0-79E5-11D6-A8D0-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 03:58  am, Erik Mattheis wrote:

>> I think the topics of Flash usability and accessibility are both
>> interesting.  It's a matter of knowing your audience, and deciding who
>> you're going to exclude from the party, or how difficult you're going
>> to
>> make for them to get in.
>
> That's the great thing about Flash: you have almost total control
> over a GUI and can make it anything you want.

Whereas one of the primary principles of designing for the *web* as
opposed to print is being user-centric.

If it's a choice between you having control, and your users having
control, the users are the ones that matter.

>> But I suspect this is the wrong list for discussing Flash at all.  Does
>> anyone know of an alternative list?
>
> There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
> you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored.

10 -
                     9 -
                     8 -<---------
                     7 -
                     6 -
                     5 -
                     4 -
                     3 -
                     2 -
                     1 -
                     0 -
                 __________

Results by Trollometer?

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 14:14:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:14:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
In-Reply-To: <F146U1Gj03oHMwVN7mi00019a98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E9F7DA6-7A4A-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 07:43  pm, Pablo Oliva wrote:

> Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.  What I am
> trying to do is place three sets of images on the "same line", but after
> closing a div tag you get a line break.  Any help is appreciated.

Pablo

Something like

http://www.alistapart.com/stories/practicalcss/

Although they will wrap if the width allowed isn't enough

From cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 14:18:01 2002
From: cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com (Pablo Oliva)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <F18xH3HJIFW0vgBRFbc0000375a@hotmail.com>

http://www.extreme4x4.com/temp/DIV.gif

Right now I have a table with 3 cells, and I have one div inside each
cell... so there are no line breaks.  But I would like to eliminate the
table and just be left with the divs, on the "same row".

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

From rob.smith at thermon.com  Fri Jun  7 14:24:02 2002
From: rob.smith at thermon.com (Rob Smith)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:24:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <1AF1AE25FC71D411BDE100D0B774E5CA0207096F@smtmb.thermon.com>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]

yup <spam></s... oops   <span></span> tags will work.

http://www.extreme4x4.com/temp/DIV.gif

Right now I have a table with 3 cells, and I have one div inside each
cell... so there are no line breaks.  But I would like to eliminate the
table and just be left with the divs, on the "same row".

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  7 14:30:00 2002
From: cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com (Pablo Oliva)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:30:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <F128ngxHuVHnqXpXmDf00019a7e@hotmail.com>

You're right, span does work.  I thought that I had tried that previously
and it did not give me the padding that I had specified.  Maybe it was on an
older browser or something... who knows.  But thanks for your help.

>From: Rob Smith <rob.smith at thermon.com>
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] div elements
>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:25:54 -0500
>
>--
>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
>
>yup <spam></s... oops   <span></span> tags will work.
>
>
>http://www.extreme4x4.com/temp/DIV.gif
>
>Right now I have a table with 3 cells, and I have one div inside each
>cell... so there are no line breaks.  But I would like to eliminate the
>table and just be left with the divs, on the "same row".
>
>
> >From: Rob Smith <rob.smith at thermon.com>
> >Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> >To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> >Subject: RE: [thelist] div elements
> >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:08:07 -0500
> >
> >--
> >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> >
> >
> >do you have a pictorial example?
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.  What I am
> >trying to do is place three sets of images on the "same line", but after
> >closing a div tag you get a line break.  Any help is appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> >http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >--
> >For unsubscribe and other options, including
> >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> >--
> >For unsubscribe and other options, including
> >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From rob.smith at thermon.com  Fri Jun  7 14:30:10 2002
From: rob.smith at thermon.com (Rob Smith)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:30:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <1AF1AE25FC71D411BDE100D0B774E5CA02070971@smtmb.thermon.com>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]

Alternatively, you could have nested Div's.

I need a block level element thought because I have padding around each of
the 3 sets of items.  Is there any work-around?

>
>Sorry, I should have been more clear.  Sent it too fast.  Use <span>
>instead
>of <div>.  It's basically the same, but isn't a "block-level" element.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Pablo Oliva [mailto:cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:43 PM
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Cc: wdvltalk at lists.wdvl.com
>Subject: [thelist] div elements
>
>
>Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.  What I am
>trying to do is place three sets of images on the "same line", but after
>closing a div tag you get a line break.  Any help is appreciated.
>
>
>The information in this electronic mail message is sender's business
>Confidential and may be legally privileged.  It is intended solely for the
>addressee(s).  Access to this Internet electronic mail message by anyone
>else is unauthorized.  If you are not the intended recipient, any
>disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be
>taken
>in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
>The sender believes that this E-mail and any attachments were free of any
>virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent. This message
>and
>its attachments could have been infected during  transmission. By reading
>the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full
>responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and
>other defects. Galileo International is not liable for any loss or damage
>arising in any way from this message or its attachments.
>
>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From cparker at swatgear.com  Fri Jun  7 14:34:04 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:34:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] TESTING/DEVELOPMENT: how to make/manage test-subsite.main-production-site.com in iis5
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033011@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

hi.

i hope my subject line wasn't too confusing.

what i have now is www.main-production-site.com , and i want to create
test.main-production-site.com. in fact it doesn't even have to be
accessible through a domain name, i can just access it through IP
address.

but that's not the important part. the important part is making a mirror
of the current site to a different site in iis5, then being able to
publish the test site to the production site once it's deemed that the
test version of the site is at production level.

did i make any sense?

so, how can i create a mirror of the production site? i.e. what's the
easiest way?

chris.

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 14:35:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:35:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PGP alternative
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020607160530.00a4a0d0@mail.meadoworks.com>
Message-ID: <94C88636-7A4D-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 08:10  pm, Jen Worden wrote:

> Can I install PGP myself?

Maybe. If your host allows you to compile software then you may be able
to install GPG.

> Is there another way of dealing with encrypted
> email for CC numbers?

The main other option is to have it write to a file on the server which
is owner-readable only.

But I'm a bit uncomfortable with that as you'd need an anonymous write
too.

From jdowdell at macromedia.com  Fri Jun  7 14:36:00 2002
From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:36:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Dreamweaver & keywords tip
Message-ID: <v02140b12b926bb15c7ee@[10.41.1.253]>

You can try searching the Dreamweaver Technotes with a term like "template
keyword" too... pulls an article right up.

From david_shadovitz at xontech.com  Fri Jun  7 14:36:11 2002
From: david_shadovitz at xontech.com (David Shadovitz)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:36:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: User agent: browser and OS
Message-ID: <3D0108FF.1CC510BC@xontech.com>

CB,

Thanks, but I don't have access to the log files.
I do have all of the user agent strings for each hit, though.  So I'm
looking for the rules to categorize each user agent (e.g "MSIE" means IE
unless "Opera" is also present.)  The RegExp's in your config file are
somewhat helpful.
Hmm, maybe I can "fake" a log file by writing all of the user agent
strings into a file, and then use a tool to examine that file.

-David

====
I had asked:
How do I categorize user agents by browser and OS?

CB answered:
Use Analog http://www.analog.cx/ and her config file
http://www.macedition.com/cb/manconf.cfg

From Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Fri Jun  7 14:40:01 2002
From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
Message-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC2032FC953@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pablo Oliva [mailto:cr8tivewerk at hotmail.com]

> Is there any way to place items inside div tags side by side.
>  What I am trying to do is place three sets of images on the
> "same line", but after closing a div tag you get a line
> break.  Any help is appreciated.

You could try setting those images with a style of "display: inline".

--
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 14:47:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] TESTING/DEVELOPMENT: how to make/manage test-subsite.main-production-site.com in iis5
In-Reply-To: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033011@ati-ex-01.ati.local>
Message-ID: <3690D1C0-7A4F-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 08:22  pm, Chris W. Parker wrote:

> but that's not the important part. the important part is making a mirror
> of the current site to a different site in iis5, then being able to
> publish the test site to the production site once it's deemed that the
> test version of the site is at production level.
>
> did i make any sense?
>
> so, how can i create a mirror of the production site? i.e. what's the
> easiest way?

Although I surprise myself in saying it, FrontPage server extensions.

FP allows you to publish a site from one server to another pretty easily.

From as867 at columbia.edu  Fri Jun  7 14:48:01 2002
From: as867 at columbia.edu (Sicular, Alexander)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:48:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PGP alternative
Message-ID: <526804E77BD5324DA6A026378FD5A73E2EBE2F@exchange2k.neuro.columbia.edu>

Try http://www.gnupg.org/. I use it via cmd line and it is great. I also
use php / coldfusion to call it and that also works.

GL,

Alexander Sicular
Chief Technology Architect
Neurological Institute of New York
Columbia University
as867 [at] columbia {dot} edu

From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com  Fri Jun  7 14:53:01 2002
From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer)
Date: Fri Jun  7 14:53:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript and Form Validation Trickery Not Working
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607143244.03ba8af0@mail.imaginuity.com>

Let me preface this by saying my expertise in JavaScript is practically nil.

I've been experimenting with the way I do form validation by changing the
background color of fields that don't validate, like so:

function verify_form() {

error_color = '#FFD8D8';

if (!document.forms[0].txtUsername.value) {
       alert("Please enter a username.");
       document.forms[0].txtUsername.focus();
       document.forms[0].txtUsername.style.backgroundColor = error_color;
       return false;
     }

}

And then on the form field:

Now then, this correctly turns the field a shade of light red in IE5/6,
Netscape 6 but not in Netscape 4.  I expected it not to work in NN4, that's
not the problem.  The problem is that Netscape 4, does the error message,
focuses on the field, doesn't color it red but skips the return false; line
and submits the form without any further validation.

Is there any way to fix this for NN4 without removing the color change?

--Ben

Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/

Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
   http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/     http://www.evolt.org/

From cparker at swatgear.com  Fri Jun  7 15:00:00 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Fri Jun  7 15:00:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] TESTING/DEVELOPMENT: how to make/manage test-subsite.main-production-site.com in iis5
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE078188@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

> Although I surprise myself in saying it, FrontPage server extensions.
>
> FP allows you to publish a site from one server to another
> pretty easily.

yeah, i thought of that already, but i've had problems with it in the
past between remote computers (i.e. over the internet). but this would
be intranet on the same server so it'd probably not have the same
problems. i'll give it a go.

thanks,
chris.

From muinar at gmx.net  Fri Jun  7 15:21:01 2002
From: muinar at gmx.net (m u i n a r)
Date: Fri Jun  7 15:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] More copied sites?
In-Reply-To: <200206070311.g573BAv02908@alice.monkeyland.ca>
References: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGMEEMCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020607220954.01d3e1c0@mail.gmx.net>

At 05:11 07.06.02, you wrote:
>Yeah, I was thinking of using an imagemap.  It's been awhile since I
>worked on this but xplanet may give you the x-, y-coordinates of the
>points.  You'd have to make them big enough to be clickable.  Some of
>the other people were working on a Flash map that located evolt.org
>members as well.  The trick is finding a good map.

Believe it or not, finally we can see Evolt copying from the FlashPro
mailing list...

http://muinar.org/map-020223.html (static five-minute-mock-up from
february 2002, idea discussed since 2001 - of course this will be in
Flash)

The idea was that members enter there co-ordinates, and the map shows
the member's locations with little red dots... The FlashPro list is
really international, with members all over the world, which would be
nice to see on the map.

Please use green dots, not red ones, thanks   ;)

Mike
FlashPro Mailing List
http://muinar.org/

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 16:00:01 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Need Flash help... please
Message-ID: <3D017AB0@mail.totalise.co.uk>

Guys, I need a hand...

I'm really struggling on how to embed a flash document into a page.

Nothing advanced, just straightforward adding a movie to a page.
I cant understand why it isnt working, I just used the code that
Flash5 generated and it doesnt work at all...

http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=7

Cheers

Dan

------------------------
- Daniel Fascia -

18 Gayfield Sq,
Edinburgh,
EH13NX

+447971541842 (mobile)
------------------------

From ajohnson at purplemountain.net  Fri Jun  7 16:07:01 2002
From: ajohnson at purplemountain.net (Amy Johnson)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Can you see the images??  www.melindathompson.com
Message-ID: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJIEDJCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>

Hi all.  I used some advice I received here on the list to get ASP to display images from a directory outside the web space.  It
seems to work ok but just heard that a client of my client can't see the images.  I'm surprised and wonder what configuration this
person has such that the site isn't working.  Please take a look and let me know if you can see the images on your various browsers.

http://www.melindathompson.com/homes.asp

Thanks!
Amy

From rachel at cre8d-design.com  Fri Jun  7 16:12:00 2002
From: rachel at cre8d-design.com (Rachel Cunliffe)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:12:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Can you see the images??  www.melindathompson.com
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJIEDJCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <BNEKIIOIGNCAJIGPOGMGIEGFCHAA.rachel@cre8d-design.com>

Hi Amy,

IE 6, Opera 6, Netscape 7  I can see pictures fine.

hth
rachel

-----Original Message-----
Please take a look and let me know if you can see the images on your various
browsers.
http://www.melindathompson.com/homes.asp

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 16:14:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:14:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Can you see the images??  www.melindathompson.com
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJIEDJCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <76D13667-7A5B-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:08  pm, Amy Johnson wrote:

> Hi all.  I used some advice I received here on the list to get ASP to
> display images from a directory outside the web space.  It
> seems to work ok but just heard that a client of my client can't see
> the images.  I'm surprised and wonder what configuration this
> person has such that the site isn't working.  Please take a look and
> let me know if you can see the images on your various browsers.
>
> http://www.melindathompson.com/homes.asp

Seems fine from here

From simplecypher at bitshift.ws  Fri Jun  7 16:16:01 2002
From: simplecypher at bitshift.ws (:: kevination ::)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:16:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Can you see the images??  www.melindathompson.com
References: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJIEDJCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <007401c20e68$f46f7cd0$3001330a@marchfirstslc.com>

Windows 2000:
IE6, no problems
Moz1,  no problems
NS4.79, no problems

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Johnson" <ajohnson at purplemountain.net>
| Hi all.  I used some advice I received here on the list to get ASP to
display images from a directory outside the web space.  It
| seems to work ok but just heard that a client of my client can't see the
images.  I'm surprised and wonder what configuration this
| person has such that the site isn't working.  Please take a look and let
me know if you can see the images on your various browsers.
|
| http://www.melindathompson.com/homes.asp
|

From ian at catbird.com  Fri Jun  7 16:18:01 2002
From: ian at catbird.com (Ian Potts)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla 1.0 JS Problem. Is There A Workaround?
Message-ID: <3D0122C8.40604@catbird.com>

Hello,

I have a form that contains a select menu that for reasons too long to
get in to right now is manipulated by other items on the page.
Basically, if a certain condition is present, the selected item is
"deselected" via the following:

document.myform.myselect.selectedIndex = -1;

This works flawlessly in IE and Netscape 4.7X, but I have been toying
with Mozilla 1.0 and noticed that this JS doesn't seem to work as
planned. The value myselect is still passed (using whatever the user had
selected).

I have tried setting the selectedIndex to '', and false. As well as
setting document.myform.myselect.value = ''; All of the above still
result in the value being passed. Anyone have a workaround?

Thanks,
Ian

From chris at setmajer.com  Fri Jun  7 16:48:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:48:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
In-Reply-To: <F128ngxHuVHnqXpXmDf00019a7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B926F944.1DB6%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Pablo Oliva:

> You're right, span does work.  I thought that I had tried that previously
> and it did not give me the padding that I had specified.  Maybe it was on an
> older browser or something... who knows.  But thanks for your help.

IIRC, IE5/Win doesn't like adding padding to inline elements, so check if
that browser is important to you.

To do what you're trying with <div>s, try:

Then in either and embedded or external stylesheet use:

.imageDiv {
    float: left;
    padding: 1em; /*or whatever value you like*/
    }

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    There is not a man in America who has not
    had a secret ambition to boot an infant.
    --------------------------------------<< W. C. Fields >>

From danieljohnfrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:54:00 2002
From: danieljohnfrey at yahoo.com (Daniel Frey)
Date: Fri Jun  7 16:54:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Need Flash help... please
In-Reply-To: <3D017AB0@mail.totalise.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000c01c20e6e$975fbae0$0b00a8c0@frey.local>

It looks like you have play set to false.  It's set in two places,
setting it to true should do the trick.

Hth,
Dan

-----
Guys, I need a hand...

I'm really struggling on how to embed a flash document into a page.

Nothing advanced, just straightforward adding a movie to a page.
I cant understand why it isnt working, I just used the code that
Flash5 generated and it doesnt work at all...

http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=c
linical&page=7

Cheers

Dan

------------------------
- Daniel Fascia -

18 Gayfield Sq,
Edinburgh,
EH13NX

+447971541842 (mobile)
------------------------

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From lists at irubin.com  Fri Jun  7 17:10:01 2002
From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:10:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
Message-ID: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>

Hello,

I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to work in
Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it doesn't work, unless
I turn off  "friendly error messages".

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Kevin
--lists at irubin.com

From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com  Fri Jun  7 17:14:00 2002
From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:14:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607171155.03bb66c8@mail.imaginuity.com>

IE replaces error pages it if the document is under a particular file
size.  Something like 1 or 2K.  I forget.  Try padding the file size of
your 404 page (add some comments or something).

--Ben

On 05:16 PM 6/7/2002, Kevin said to me:
>I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to work in
>Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it doesn't work, unless
>I turn off  "friendly error messages".

Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/

Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
   http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/     http://www.evolt.org/

From martin at takingitglobal.org  Fri Jun  7 17:19:00 2002
From: martin at takingitglobal.org (Martin Kuplens-Ewart)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:19:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607171155.03bb66c8@mail.imaginuity.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c20e71$49f59600$8001a8c0@martinlaptop>

> Try padding the file size of your 404 page (add some comments

Blank transparent images tend to be good here... A nice 100x100 pixel
gif... Transparent... Yummy... height="1" width="1" Filesize over a
couple of k and your set.

-m

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 17:52:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 17:52:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAKEJKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>
References: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAKEJKEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05111b00b926e376fe30@[192.168.1.100]>

Hmm, John, I wasn't trolling, but sincere ...

Think about it: the original poster's only question, paraphrased, was
"Does anybody know of a list where I can discuss a particular web
technology?"

Whoever has given thelist the feel that Flash is OT here is certainly
not <quote src="evolt.org site footer">promoting the mutual free
exchange of ideas, skills and experiences. </quote>

Kinda sucks, wouldn't you say?

>  > There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
>>  you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored. Discuss.
>
>Erik,
>
>You've kicked off long-running arguments with troll posts
>like this before, but never so deliberately.  Please desist.

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Fri Jun  7 18:05:01 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:05:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <20020608000549.6b4cc511.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:16:47 -0700
"Kevin" <lists at irubin.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to
> work in Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it
> doesn't work, unless I turn off "friendly error messages".

http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2779295-3,00.html

I find the easiest way is to include images. A site logo can nicely
bounce the file size above the minimum requirement.

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 18:23:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Need Flash help... please
In-Reply-To: <3D017AB0@mail.totalise.co.uk>
References: <3D017AB0@mail.totalise.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a05111b01b926ee207e5b@[192.168.1.100]>

This is a wild guess ... are you using loadMovie()? If you are the
SWFs to load in /medmicrocal/pneumonia/img/ or /medmicrocal/

If they are in /medmicrocal/pneumonia/img/ and you're just saying
loadMovie('movie.swf'), the browser won't find them ... they are
looked for relative to the HTML page, not the SWF (except in a few
browsers which exhibit a bug in which the rule is reversed).

The solutions are

- use absolute URLs: loadMovie('/medmicrocal/pneumonia/img/movie.swf')

- keep all HTML and SWFs in the same directory

then again, it doesn't work when I load the SWF directly nin the
window:
http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/pneumonia/img/auscultate.swf

>Guys, I need a hand...
>
>I'm really struggling on how to embed a flash document into a page.
>
>http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion=clinical&page=7

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From cparker at swatgear.com  Fri Jun  7 18:29:01 2002
From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:29:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] SSI's: what are the rules for depth and variable scope? (aardvark, a little help?)
Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033012@ati-ex-01.ati.local>

hi.

i'm using iis5 and i'm trying to take an idea aardvark had (i'm pretty
sure it was him) and apply it to the site i'm working on.

i had a few pages converted and everything was going fine until this
last page. the problem is that the page that contains the content is not
able to access the included information from the template.

here is how it works.

pageA is the content.
pageB is the template.

pageB is included in pageA. so pageA is basically the parent of pageB.

pageA contains something like:

<% Sub Content %>
hello
<% End Sub %>

and pageB is something like...

however, both pageA AND pageB need to use the same source file. we'll
call that pageC.

so if i do an include statement of pageC inside both pages A and B i get
an error. (i've seen a few different errors depending on which
combination of where and what include so i don't know if this is the
correct error exactly) "Name Redefined". and that would of course be
because both files are being included and therefore variables are being
redefined. that makes sense.

ok so then lets get rid of the include page in pageA and just keep it in
pageB. then i get a Type Mismatch error on a specific function that is
found in pageC.

pageA calls pageB, pageB calls pageC (because pageB needs some functions
in pageC), and pageA also needs some functions in pageC so it calls it
as well. but like i just explained this causes and error. and if i take
one of the references out, the page that is not including the file
cannot see the included content and therefore throws an error anyway.
type mismatch.

what the heck should i do?

the only thing i can think of is instead of having one large include
file that contains many functions, i separate the large file into
smaller includes which contain only the functions specificaly needed by
each page. but what happens when the template file (pageB) and the
content file (pageA) need the same function? then that solution won't
work either.

is there any way around this?!?!?!

thanks,
chris.

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 18:29:10 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:29:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
 <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05111b01b9265ecdd35d@[192.168.1.100]>

Aardvark,

>  > ~ document.write different <link> tags based on navigator.userAgent,
>>  use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN 4.x
>>  with JS disabled barf on it --
>
>NN4.x won't render CSS with JS disabled...

Meant barf on the the pretty CSS, not page layout.

>but IE without JS enabled will still be penalized...

The strategy is this:

Don't rely on CSS for anything that would make the site unusable
Put the stuff that will not break in any target browsers in a non
document.write <link>
Lower on the page, deal with problems in target browsers and use
browser-specific CSS by document.write()ing different stylesheets for
different browsers.

If you plan it wellt:

- everybody can get the content
- those w/o JS get a prettier content
- the amount of control in your target browsers WITH JS is only
limited by how anal you're willing to be

>i think using document.write penalizes your non-JS user
>unecessarily... after all, if you're taking the time to serve
>different CSS for people, why not support 'em all?

My response to that is that turning off JavaScript unnecessarily
penalizes the browser! Whenever JS is turned off, someone has
intentionally handicapped the browser, and I don't have a problem if
my pages don't look as pretty as they would with JS on.

And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article.
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Fri Jun  7 18:34:00 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:34:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a05111b00b926e376fe30@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <000a01c20e7b$b60a4d90$6701a8c0@neonreactor>

> >Erik,
> >
> >You've kicked off long-running arguments with troll posts
> >like this before, but never so deliberately.  Please desist.

Hey, why should he have to 'desist'?

LOL! This is a list for web developers, and flash discussions are
implicitly OT (as evidenced by a member requesting a more appropriate
place for Flash discussions).

Why isn't it valid for Erik to issue this warning, it's true.

Erik is a really, really valuable resource for Flash issues, and Flash
issues are part of web development issues. His participation and
contributions to this list are extremely valuable, especially
considering the relative scarcity of such expertise in this community
(hm, where did all the Flash experts go? Were they frightened away? Way
to promote free and open exchange of ideas...)

<tip>
A difference of opinion does not necessarily mean that someone is
'wrong'.
</tip>

John Corry
Neon Cowboy Design
http://www.neoncowboy.com
mail : john at neoncowboy.com
phone : 808.572.8494

From mike at nthwave.net  Fri Jun  7 18:50:01 2002
From: mike at nthwave.net (Michael Mell)
Date: Fri Jun  7 18:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>
	 <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost> <a05111b01b9265ecdd35d@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net>

Erik Mattheis wrote:

> And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
> ... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article.

I really disagree -- I do site development all day long for Netscape 4, IE
4,5&6, Opera 5 on Mac, PC for designers who have no concept of working
within the constraints of html. I never, ever (except maybe once in a moment
of weakness) serve anything different for any platform. Sure, the layout
looks a little different on each but so what? Everyone gets a good page. You
just have to work at it.

Disclaimer:
I do layout using tables and don't plan on changing any time soon.

--
mike[at]nthwave.net
llemekim         YahooIM
415.455.8812     voice
419.735.1167     fax

From seyon at delime.com  Fri Jun  7 19:07:01 2002
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Fri Jun  7 19:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Can you see the images??  www.melindathompson.com
In-Reply-To: <MBBBKCIHDGAIONCKNKJJIEDJCCAA.ajohnson@purplemountain.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020607200136.00a49e98@mail.delime.com>

Message from Amy Johnson (6/7/2002 03:08 PM)
>It seems to work ok but just heard that a client of my client can't see
>the images.  I'm surprised and wonder what configuration this person has
>such that the site isn't working.

Works fine for me using Opera6 and IE5.

Maybe your client's client is either browsing with image loading disabled?

regards.
-m

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 19:12:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 19:12:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <000a01c20e7b$b60a4d90$6701a8c0@neonreactor>
Message-ID: <5536A31C-7A74-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:33  am, John Corry wrote:

> A difference of opinion does not necessarily mean that someone is
> 'wrong'.

Which hardly supports trolls like:
>>  > There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
>>  you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored.

That troll didn't really go a long way towards:
<quote src="evolt.org site footer">promoting the mutual free
exchange of ideas, skills and experiences. </quote>
particularly when those experiences include a knowledge of the
applicable law which Erik clearly doesn't have.

Although he only scored 8 on my Trollometer, he redlined my bogometer.

Let me put Erik's troll another way, and see how you and he feels about
it:
There are people with a hardon for Flash that will jump in telling you
that you can use Flash without awareness of the legal and business
impacts of accessibility failure and how to mitigate them, but they can
be ignored.

> Erik is a really, really valuable resource for Flash issues,
That knowledge still doesn't excuse trolling.

Martin
_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID:	0xA835CCCB
	martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail:	30 Shandon Place
   tel:	+44 (0)774 063 9985				Edinburgh,
   url:	http://www.easyweb.co.uk			Scotland

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 19:17:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 19:17:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net>
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>	
 <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>
 <a05111b01b9265ecdd35d@[192.168.1.100]> <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net>
Message-ID: <a05111b05b926f9b635e4@[192.168.1.100]>

At 4:49 PM -0700 6/7/02, Michael Mell wrote:
>Erik Mattheis wrote:
>
>>  And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
>>  ... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article.
>
>I really disagree -- I do site development all day long for Netscape 4, IE
>4,5&6, Opera 5 on Mac, PC for designers who have no concept of working
>within the constraints of html. I never, ever (except maybe once in a moment
>of weakness) serve anything different for any platform. Sure, the layout
>looks a little different on each but so what? Everyone gets a good page. You
>just have to work at it.

If you had to, how would you use one stylesheet to

- use scroll:
- style form elements
- set body margins to a true 0px

Sure, there's a ton of CSS that will render pretty much the same in
the majority of browsers ... but some cool stuff that will not.

>Disclaimer:
>I do layout using tables and don't plan on changing any time soon.

As do I for the most part.

Back to the subject: of the thread ... I have two clients that insist
on continuing to use NN 4.x ... both use custom CMSs which are
stunningly beautiful in IE, Opera and NN 6+ ... I cannot get them to
switch. They like NN 4.x. Why? WHY? WWHHYYY?
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  7 20:00:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:00:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b05b926f9b635e4@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net>
Message-ID: <3D011E2E.4543.9F0CEE61@localhost>

> From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
> >
> >I really disagree -- I do site development all day long for Netscape
> >4, IE 4,5&6, Opera 5 on Mac, PC for designers who have no concept of
> >working within the constraints of html. I never, ever (except maybe
> >once in a moment of weakness) serve anything different for any
> >platform. Sure, the layout looks a little different on each but so
> >what? Everyone gets a good page. You just have to work at it.
>
> If you had to, how would you use one stylesheet to
>
> - use scroll:
> - style form elements
> - set body margins to a true 0px

his point is that it's ok to look a little bit different from browser
to browser... a good design can handle that...

so it wouldn't matter to him (nor to many users) if the form button
*looks* like a form button in NN4.x, as opposed to some light grey
text on a grey box with a dark grey border, or whatever convoluted
non-form control-looking things the kids are designing nowadays....

> Sure, there's a ton of CSS that will render pretty much the same in
> the majority of browsers ... but some cool stuff that will not.

but cool stuff usually (shouldn't be, for a general site) isn't
required to use a site, and if it is, then the site probably isn't
serving its audience well (or isn't serving an audience with any
NN4.x users)...

[...]
> Back to the subject: of the thread ... I have two clients that insist
> on continuing to use NN 4.x ... both use custom CMSs which are
> stunningly beautiful in IE, Opera and NN 6+ ... I cannot get them to
> switch. They like NN 4.x. Why? WHY? WWHHYYY? --

- because you offer them no reason to, only reasons why it would be
better for you...

- if it ain't broke (which to them, it apparently isn't), don't fix
it...

- the client is always right, even when they're wrong...

hell, i'd still use Word 6.0 if the latest piece of bloatware didn't
come with this machine... i use none of the new features, and i don't
care if someone sends me a .doc with some neat-o something or other,
i usually just wanna read the copy anyway...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  7 20:14:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:14:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b01b9265ecdd35d@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D012177.30828.9F19C194@localhost>

> From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
>
> >  > ~ document.write different <link> tags based on
> >  > navigator.userAgent,
> >>  use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN
> >>  4.x with JS disabled barf on it --
> >
> >NN4.x won't render CSS with JS disabled...
>
> Meant barf on the the pretty CSS, not page layout.

yes, but that assumes you're using tabled layouts and that you know
how code the page so you don't call an inline bgcolor (attribute, not
CSS) that hides your text, or something else bad...

it also means you're taking an all-or-nothing approach, which can be
completely avoided with either server-side browser detection (which
is only a step above client-side, IMO), or, essentially capability
testing by using @import...

> >but IE without JS enabled will still be penalized...
>
> The strategy is this:
>
> Don't rely on CSS for anything that would make the site unusable
> Put the stuff that will not break in any target browsers in a non
> document.write <link> Lower on the page, deal with problems in target
> browsers and use browser-specific CSS by document.write()ing different
> stylesheets for different browsers.
>
> If you plan it wellt:
>
> - everybody can get the content
> - those w/o JS get a prettier content
> - the amount of control in your target browsers WITH JS is only
> limited by how anal you're willing to be

yes, anyone can get the content (given caveats above), but that still
seems awkward... you take the time to create different CSS files
specific to each browser, but you rely on client-side scripting that
can either be disabled or even misread browsers (spoofing, new
versions, etc.)...

if you plan it "more" well, you can still leverage *all* that custom
CSS without the need for JS, and (more likely than not), without any
CSS or HTML hacks...

i consider creating a valid page and then writing HTML into it via JS
a hack (moreso if you're writing in invalid HTML)...

that's mostly a personal preference, but it also eases maintenance
and compatibility...

> >i think using document.write penalizes your non-JS user
> >unecessarily... after all, if you're taking the time to serve
> >different CSS for people, why not support 'em all?
>
> My response to that is that turning off JavaScript unnecessarily
> penalizes the browser! Whenever JS is turned off, someone has
> intentionally handicapped the browser, and I don't have a problem if
> my pages don't look as pretty as they would with JS on.

my response to that response is that turning off JS doesn't penalize
me at all... it penalizes some sites that don't let me use their nav
(but i just go elsewhere), it prevents the hassle of banner windows,
it speeds up my system, and for IE/win, it prevents many security
issues...

IOW, it doesn't handicap me, it empowers me...  and sites that treat
my browser like a red-headed stepchild get summarily bozo-filtered...
don't believe me?  look at all the stuff i've bought online -- it all
came from sites that work without JS enabled...

> And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
> ... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article. --

which one?  my latest?

yes, cookies are needed to save custom styles, but no client-side
script... i wrote the article because i see so many people struggle
unnecessarily with JS style switchers, and they are useless to me
without JS...

i don't see how cookies matter here, though, especially since my
article is a tutorial for something that requires cookies by its very
nature... kinda like my article on detecting screen stats and window
sizes...

CSS, however, should not require JS to be enabled... there's no good
reason those two should be inextricably linked, and to require it is
forcing something down a user's throat they don't need, only because
it's more convenient for the developer...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  7 20:21:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] SSI's: what are the rules for depth and variable scope? (aardvark, a little help?)
In-Reply-To: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033012@ati-ex-01.ati.local>
Message-ID: <3D012321.12008.9F204048@localhost>

sorry for the delay, two happy hours with clients...  way too much
pepsi, coke, and celery...

> From: "Chris W. Parker" <cparker at swatgear.com>
[...]
> i'm using iis5 and i'm trying to take an idea aardvark had (i'm pretty
> sure it was him) and apply it to the site i'm working on.

from what i see, it's one i proposed, yes... it's also what i use on
my site and a few client sites...

> i had a few pages converted and everything was going fine until this
> last page. the problem is that the page that contains the content is
> not able to access the included information from the template.
>
> here is how it works.
>
> pageA is the content.
> pageB is the template.
>
> pageB is included in pageA. so pageA is basically the parent of pageB.
>
> pageA contains something like:
>
> <% Sub Content %>
> hello
> <% End Sub %>
> 
>
> and pageB is something like...
>
> <html>
> <body>
> <% Content %>
> </body>
> </html>

with you so far...

> however, both pageA AND pageB need to use the same source file. we'll
> call that pageC.

what source file?  perhaps a breadcrumb function?

> so if i do an include statement of pageC inside both pages A and B i
> get an error. (i've seen a few different errors depending on which
> combination of where and what include so i don't know if this is the
> correct error exactly) "Name Redefined". and that would of course be
> because both files are being included and therefore variables are
> being redefined. that makes sense.

right... but don't include anything in your content page -- only
include files into the template, and then the template gets included
(with its includes) into the content page...  only *one* include on
your content page...

> ok so then lets get rid of the include page in pageA and just keep it
> in pageB. then i get a Type Mismatch error on a specific function that
> is found in pageC.

dump all the code from C into B at the point of the include... do you
get the same error?  if so, it's the VBScript, if not, well, i'd need
to look at what the heck you're doing...

> pageA calls pageB, pageB calls pageC (because pageB needs some
> functions in pageC), and pageA also needs some functions in pageC so
> it calls it as well. but like i just explained this causes and error.
> and if i take one of the references out, the page that is not
> including the file cannot see the included content and therefore
> throws an error anyway. type mismatch.

well, only call the file (C) once (in B), not in both pages...

> what the heck should i do?

try what i said above -- copy your content page, dump all the code
from the appropriate page into the place it's included...

lemme know what happens then...

> the only thing i can think of is instead of having one large include
> file that contains many functions, i separate the large file into
> smaller includes which contain only the functions specificaly needed
> by each page. but what happens when the template file (pageB) and the
> content file (pageA) need the same function? then that solution won't
> work either.

i have all functions in different files (C-Z), then all included into
the template (B)... the content page (A) *never* includes anything
more than the template...

> is there any way around this?!?!?!

yes, but i dunno what it is yet... lemme know how my suggestions work
out, and worst-case scenario, you send me some files offlist and i
play around with them...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From TinaClarke at accessfp.net  Fri Jun  7 20:27:00 2002
From: TinaClarke at accessfp.net (Tina Clarke)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:27:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain> <20020608000549.6b4cc511.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <01b501c20e8a$b53c5160$53ec87d9@tina>

> On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:16:47 -0700
> "Kevin" <lists at irubin.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it
only seems to
> > work in Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on
IE it
> > doesn't work, unless I turn off "friendly error
messages".

You might find this site useful and you can have laugh too;)

http://www.plinko.net/404/

Tina

From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  7 20:28:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:28:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] resolution stats
In-Reply-To: <000301c20dfa$6f5aec50$6701a8c0@neonreactor>
References: <3D000175.7779.9AB4B8A4@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D0124CC.1584.9F26C458@localhost>

> From: "John Corry" <webshot at members.evolt.org>
> >
> > i ask that, of course, because my own research showed that at
> > 800x600, users had a mean available viewport of 719x397, and
> > at 1,024x768, they had a mean viewport of 881x539...
>
> OK...wow, you do a *really* good job.

?? ...all i did was compile, there's no good job there other than i
was *really* curious...

> For me, just knowing that they have ~800x600 of available screen real
> estate is enough.
>
> I'm actually totally neurotic and obsessive about *some* things (like
> my 'Morning Edition' coffee mug that I got at a NPR fundraiser
> attended by Bob Edwards himself...small, intimate atmosphere...what an
> experience)...my viewers window size when they visit my site is not
> one of them.
>
> We have absolutely no control over that.

aw hell, i didn't mean to imply that you had any control, just that
it's nice to know the bounds you have -- user averages and the
like...  i know the mean, median, mode, and extremes of my audience,
and like any bell curve, i try to handle for as much of it as
possible with the knowledge that some are gonna slip...

[...]
> I think there's no 'right' answer here...and that in time our
> philosophy on this matter will change (regardless our current
> position).

probably, assuming the technologies involved change, too... or at
least the way people use them...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 20:56:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 20:56:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
In-Reply-To: <E17G7sP-0007C3-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>
Message-ID: <C66A2F7A-7A82-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 01:45  am, Techwatcher wrote:

> Anyway, my question is this: It's my very first totally CSS-controlled
> site, and I want to be able to use the fixed position box. I know my
> next CSS spec pages to plow through are inheritance & cascading, but
> for what element (or classes?) can I assign large margin values, but
> set to 0 left-margin for the part of the page where I want the nav
> list? I was hoping to set large margins for body, but reset them for
> H1, and that didn't work. When I finally had access to a CSS-capable
> browser (my development machine has an ancient browser), it turned out
> I had to add in CSS rules for all the elements individually (UL, P,
> etc.).

I guess you're doing something like
body {left-margin: 10px;}
h1 {left-margin: 0;}
#nav {left-margin: -10px;}

or
body {left-margin: 0px;}
h1 {left-margin: 10;}
#nav {left-margin: 0px;}

2 other approaches for you:
1) You can set rules on multiple elements at once:
h1, p, ul {left-margin: 10;}

2) Try this:
body {left-margin: 0px;}
#main {left-margin: 10px;}
#nav {left-margin: 0px;}

where your html has:
<body>
<div id="nav">
nav stuff
</div>
<div id="main">
main body with <h1>, <p>, <ul> etc
</div>
</body>

> Also, the fixed position doesn't do what I expected (it scrolls with
> the page).

You mean it stays on the same place in the window while the content
scrolls around it? (eg sticks to the top of the window)

You want it to stay at the top of the page as if it's normal inline
content and keeps the rest of the page below it?
try position: absolute

> Any comments from the experts before I hit the "books" again?

I'm not a CSS expert - but I play one in panto.

Good book:
Cascading Style Sheets: Separating Content from Presentation:
http://www.glasshaus.com/bookInfo.asp?bookId=59

I'm working my way through it and it's helping me enormously.

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 21:15:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:15:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D011E2E.4543.9F0CEE61@localhost>
References: <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net>
 <3D011E2E.4543.9F0CEE61@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05111b07b9270990ed1c@[192.168.1.100]>

At 8:57 PM -0400 6/7/02, aardvark wrote:
>his point is that it's ok to look a little bit different from browser
>to browser... a good design can handle that...
>
>so it wouldn't matter to him (nor to many users) if the form button
>*looks* like a form button in NN4.x, as opposed to some light grey
>text on a grey box with a dark grey border, or whatever convoluted
>non-form control-looking things the kids are designing nowadays....

Well, I've mentioned this very scenario here before but it is still
the best illustration of what I'm talking about:

A client gave me a requirement that the site navigation must be like
an example site, which uses a horizontal frame along the bottom of
the window. I had already promised myself to never unleash another
frameset into the wild and wasn't interested in doing DHTML as I
don't think it's possible to future proof DHTML yet.

The only way I could figure out how to do this was to parse the
userAgent and different stylesheets to NN 6. IE 5 Mac and IE 5+
Windows.

It can't be done with @import unlwss you disregard IE 5 Mac and IE 4
Win,  or disredard IE 5 and 5.5 Win ... if there's something that
will simulate the effect with one stylesheet in all browsers that can
do it, I don't know what it is.

>but cool stuff usually (shouldn't be, for a general site) isn't
>required to use a site, and if it is, then the site probably isn't
>serving its audience well (or isn't serving an audience with any
>NN4.x users)...

As you say later, the client is always right ... and I'm not the type
who is comfortable translating "It's difficult and maybe even not a
good idea" into "It's not possible."

>  > I have two clients that insist
>>  on continuing to use NN 4.x ... both use custom CMSs which are
>>  stunningly beautiful in IE, Opera and NN 6+ ... I cannot get them to
>>  switch. They like NN 4.x. Why? WHY? WWHHYYY? --
>
>- because you offer them no reason to, only reasons why it would be
>better for you...

I'd be happy to make the CMS section look better in NN 4.x if they'd
be happy to pay me! ... but it seems they appreciate that I can just
say <body>, <table>, and <td> and get stuff up quicker.

>- if it ain't broke (which to them, it apparently isn't), don't fix
>it...

Right ... two weeks ago I felt nefarious enough to do a new page in
thew CMS that is difficult to use in NN 4.x ... figured the timing
was right as she's started to look at her site in IE occasionally ...
failed, got a message "please don't bill me for that!"

>hell, i'd still use Word 6.0 if the latest piece of bloatware didn't
>come with this machine... i use none of the new features, and i don't
>care if someone sends me a .doc with some neat-o something or other,
>i usually just wanna read the copy anyway...

I'm still with Office 97 Win and 98 Mac ... I find the attempt to
make an free X-windows Word compatible word processor interesting ...
OpenOffice OS X does not quite cut the mustard yet ... waiting.

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From TinaClarke at accessfp.net  Fri Jun  7 21:18:01 2002
From: TinaClarke at accessfp.net (Tina Clarke)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
References: <C66A2F7A-7A82-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <020801c20e91$ca2d2c00$53ec87d9@tina>

----- Original Message ----- >
> I guess you're doing something like
> body {left-margin: 10px;}
> h1 {left-margin: 0;}
> #nav {left-margin: -10px;}
>

I don't know much about css but I've just learnt (I have
IE5.1se) that IE6 won't see styles that don't have px  ...
10; won't work but 10px; will... so it's back to making a
new template for the site I've just redone:(

Though I suppose I could use a style sheet and that would
override the styles on each page?...

no idea what I'm talking about here:)

but suffice to say.. you missed out a px on the nought above
so make sure you have all your px's in position... or you
will find that IE6 won't like you very much.

hth Tina

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 21:23:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D012177.30828.9F19C194@localhost>
References: <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost>
 <3D012177.30828.9F19C194@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05111b08b9271101ab9f@[192.168.1.100]>

At 9:11 PM -0400 6/7/02, aardvark wrote:
>  > From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
>>
>>  >  > ~ document.write different <link> tags based on
>>  >  > navigator.userAgent,
>>  >>  use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let NN
>  > >>  4.x with JS disabled barf on it --
>
>it also means you're taking an all-or-nothing approach,

No ... the <link> to a stylesheet with the non-funky stuff in the
page takes care of all the non-funky stuff.

>which can be
>completely avoided with either server-side browser detection (which
>is only a step above client-side, IMO),

Many steps below IMO!!!: a page intended for a certain browser can be
served by a proxy server to a browser for which it was not intended.
BAD!

>  or, essentially capability
>testing by using @import...

See previous post ... can't _always_ rely on that working.

>i consider creating a valid page and then writing HTML into it via JS
>a hack (moreso if you're writing in invalid HTML)...
>
>that's mostly a personal preference, but it also eases maintenance
>and compatibility...

Well, I'm of the opinion that it's still more important to make HTML
that a browser thinks as "valid" than the W3C thinks is "valid" ...
it is curious that WWW can mean World Wide Web and Wish it Would Work
and Wild Wild West.

Also to me: something that depends on a browser flaw - not
understanding @import for example is more accurately a "hack" .

Yes, it is harder to maintain, but so are almost all high-performance
things ... web-related and otherwise.

>my response to that response is that turning off JS doesn't penalize
>me at all... it penalizes some sites that don't let me use their nav
>(but i just go elsewhere),

The site penalizes itself!

>  it prevents the hassle of banner windows,

OK, point taken ... FYI these cookies alleviate the majority of the
headache: http://technoerotica.net/mylog/optouts.html

>it speeds up my system,

Damn!

>  and for IE/win, it prevents many security
>issues...

Microsoft penalizes everyone!

>IOW, it doesn't handicap me, it empowers me...  and sites that treat
>my browser like a red-headed stepchild get summarily bozo-filtered...
>don't believe me?  look at all the stuff i've bought online -- it all
>came from sites that work without JS enabled...

I'm not suggesting requiring JS to access the core features of a site
... just that I think it's acceptable to require JS for "value-added"
features, such as a presentation exactly as you intend.

>  > And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
>>  ... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article. --
>
>which one?  my latest?

Yeah, http://evolt.org/article/Style_Switcher_in_ASP/17/28241/

>yes, cookies are needed to save custom styles, but no client-side
>script... i wrote the article because i see so many people struggle
>unnecessarily with JS style switchers, and they are useless to me
>without JS...
>
>i don't see how cookies matter here, though, especially since my
>article is a tutorial for something that requires cookies by its very
>nature...

I wasn't saying the pot is calling the kettle black, rather that it's
completely acceptable to offer "extras" to a subset of your site's
visitors.

>kinda like my article on detecting screen stats and window
>sizes...
>
>CSS, however, should not require JS to be enabled... there's no good
>reason those two should be inextricably linked,

Agreed ... both in regard to NN 4.x and for things you can do without
JS or the risk of a proxy server screwing the site up. But again,
there are some things that if you want to do them, you have no choice
than to rely on JS. Really! Trust me!

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 21:32:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:32:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] CSS question (Martin? Rudy?)
In-Reply-To: <020801c20e91$ca2d2c00$53ec87d9@tina>
Message-ID: <D50B499E-7A87-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 03:11  am, Tina Clarke wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- >
>> I guess you're doing something like
>> body {left-margin: 10px;}
>> h1 {left-margin: 0;}
>> #nav {left-margin: -10px;}
>>
>
>
> I don't know much about css but I've just learnt (I have
> IE5.1se) that IE6 won't see styles that don't have px  ...
> 10; won't work but 10px; will... so it's back to making a
> new template for the site I've just redone:(
>
> Though I suppose I could use a style sheet and that would
> override the styles on each page?...
>
> no idea what I'm talking about here:)
>
> but suffice to say.. you missed out a px on the nought above
> so make sure you have all your px's in position... or you
> will find that IE6 won't like you very much.

Laziness of typing - well spotted

From gozz at gozz.com  Fri Jun  7 21:32:10 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:32:10 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <5536A31C-7A74-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
References: <5536A31C-7A74-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a05111b06b926fda02098@[192.168.1.100]>

At 1:11 AM +0100 6/8/02, Martin Burns wrote:
>On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:33  am, John Corry wrote:
>Which hardly supports trolls like:
>>>  > There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in telling
>>>  you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored.

Martin, I was not trolling. I love evolt and take it way seriously
when a member has the impression that certain aspects of web design
cannot be discussed. Sorry that I laughed instead of cried, and
sorrier that your ASCII trollometer was funnier than my sarcasm!

Being as you mistook the comment as bait ... I have no choice but to
help the critter ensnarled in my unmeaning trap ...

>That troll didn't really go a long way towards:
><quote src="evolt.org site footer">promoting the mutual free
>exchange of ideas, skills and experiences. </quote>
>particularly when those experiences include a knowledge of the
>applicable law which Erik clearly doesn't have.

It's not that I don't have knowledge that you do ... it's that you
interpret existing laws as applying to _all_ websites and I interpret
them as only speaking to government websites ... and at this very
moment I'm still defending my interpretation.

I spent the better part of two days researching whether there were
laws on the books or tort in the US that would require a privately
funded website to be accessible to those with disabilities. My
conclusion was a resounding "NO" (for the US _and_ elsewhere) ... if
anyone's interested in doing research themselves, a good start is at
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,44062,00.html

Privately funded websites are currently under no obligation to make
their content available to all devices ... a screen reader, NN 1, a
computer without a mouse or keyboard, browser without Flash, whatever
...

I'm certainly willing to reverse my evaluation ... someone send me
the link I didn't find!

>Let me put Erik's troll another way, and see how you and he feels about
>it:
>There are people with a hardon for Flash that will jump in telling you
>that you can use Flash without awareness of the legal and business
>impacts of accessibility failure and how to mitigate them, but they can
>be ignored.

I definitely missed the post or posts which you have in mind ... or
you're referring to me and also misrepresenting me.

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From mark at markgroen.com  Fri Jun  7 21:46:01 2002
From: mark at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Need Flash help... please
In-Reply-To: <3D017AB0@mail.totalise.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D010CC2.23646.EC840B@localhost>

> Guys, I need a hand...
>
> I'm really struggling on how to embed a flash document into a page.
>
> Nothing advanced, just straightforward adding a movie to a page.
> I cant understand why it isnt working, I just used the code that
> Flash5 generated and it doesnt work at all...
>
> http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/index.cfm?case=pneumonia§ion
> =clinical&page=7
>
I just noticed something else that doesn't look the same as the Flash code in
movies that I've used, besides the <PARAM name="PLAY" value="true"> part that
I think you don't even need and maybe should be <PARAM NAME=loop
VALUE=false>. I usually put the Flash .swf in the same directory as the page is in
like this: <PARAM NAME=movie VALUE="Movie3g.swf"> and yours uses an
http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/medmicrocal/pneumonia/img/auscultate.swf address
that may be causing it to choke. Here's the code from a typical export and maybe
comparing the two will help:

<OBJECT classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000"

codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.c
ab#version=5,0,0,0"
 WIDTH=680 HEIGHT=470>
 <PARAM NAME=movie VALUE="Movie3g.swf"> <PARAM NAME=loop
VALUE=false> <PARAM NAME=menu VALUE=false> <PARAM NAME=quality
VALUE=high> <PARAM NAME=scale VALUE=noborder> <PARAM
NAME=wmode VALUE=transparent> <PARAM NAME=bgcolor
VALUE=#FFFFE6> <EMBED src="Movie3g.swf" loop=false menu=false
quality=high scale=noborder wmode=transparent bgcolor=#FFFFE6  WIDTH=680
HEIGHT=470 TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash"
PLUGINSPAGE="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1
_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></EMBED>
</OBJECT>

HTH!

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Jun  7 21:51:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri Jun  7 21:51:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a05111b06b926fda02098@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <7E8C1353-7A8A-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 03:31  am, Erik Mattheis wrote:

> At 1:11 AM +0100 6/8/02, Martin Burns wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:33  am, John Corry wrote:
>> Which hardly supports trolls like:
>>>>  > There are people with no interest in Flash that will jump in
>>>> telling
>>>>  you you'll be sued if you use Flash, but they can be ignored.
>
> Martin, I was not trolling. I love evolt and take it way seriously
> when a member has the impression that certain aspects of web design
> cannot be discussed. Sorry that I laughed instead of cried, and
> sorrier that your ASCII trollometer was funnier than my sarcasm!

Humour intended.

>> That troll didn't really go a long way towards:
>> <quote src="evolt.org site footer">promoting the mutual free
>> exchange of ideas, skills and experiences. </quote>
>> particularly when those experiences include a knowledge of the
>> applicable law which Erik clearly doesn't have.
>
> It's not that I don't have knowledge that you do ... it's that you
> interpret existing laws as applying to _all_ websites and I interpret
> them as only speaking to government websites ... and at this very
> moment I'm still defending my interpretation.

Erik - here's the 30,000 foot view.

There are 2 US acts.
1) ADA - this establishes the principle that all services to the public
(including those offered by private enterprises) have to be accessible
to Americans with Disabilities. It also applies to a great many
employers in their relationships with their employees. ADA applies to
websites - this is clearly the DOJ view and has been established in a
number of cases. I posted a few citations in a response to Tom the other
week.

2) Section 508 - this says "For government-provided services, this is
what you need to do to fulfil ADA - do this and you are accessible"
(Personally, I'm not sure it's useful to have such a binary approach -
the WAI prioritisation is much more useful)

Now if you can fulfil ADA without refering to 508, then fine. However,
what are you going to do to be accessible? Pretty much all the things
you'd do are those mentioned in 508. Maybe you'd do more, maybe you'd do
a bit less, but you'll end up with something pretty similary to 508. Or
WAI, which 508 is based on.

In any case, let's pretend for a moment that you've been approached by
the DOJ, or an organisation, or a private individual, who is accusing
you of being non-accessible to a particular disability.

What's your best defence? Being accessible.
How do you prove it? "Here's how we meet these independent standards of
accessibility"
Which standard is going to give you your strongest argument in the US?
The one that the DOJ already agrees provides sufficient accessibility.
WAI would be the next one.

> Privately funded websites are currently under no obligation to make
> their content available to all devices ... a screen reader, NN 1, a
> computer without a mouse or keyboard, browser without Flash, whatever

It's not about availability to devices - that's merely the mechanism.
It's about being accessible to the people who use these devices because
their disability does not permit any other.

> .I'm certainly willing to reverse my evaluation ... someone send me
> the link I didn't find!

Did you actually read the ADA?

From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 00:11:00 2002
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Sat Jun  8 00:11:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 07-JUN-02
Message-ID: <200206080510.g585A24T027214@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 07-JUN-02

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

News: Google Gets the Most Traffic (Author: 4serendipity)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/1/29485/index.html

New metrics for search engine usage based on "search hours" indicate
that Google is used more than any other search engine.

Code: Style Switcher in ASP (Author: aardvark)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/17/28241/index.html

As more and more sites move away from embedded style tags (<font>
tags, for example), the benefits of CSS to customize a user's visit
has become all the rage.  It's hard to find a site bragging about its
use of XHTML and CSS for layout that doesn't have a style switcher of
some sort stuffed into a corner like some unruly hamster.

Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org

From luminosity at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 01:02:01 2002
From: luminosity at members.evolt.org (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
In-Reply-To: <20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
References: <20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023516079.squirrel@members.evolt.org>

David Dorward said:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:37:11 +1000 (EST)
> "Lachlan Cannon" <luminosity at members.evolt.org> wrote:
>
>> Since I'm reinstalling my OS again, I want to back all my files
>> up. Where are the preferences (especially bookmarks) for ns stored?
>> also, where are the local install files saved by default? I don't want
>> to have to bother downloading them again.
>
> Which OS?
Doh. Windows. Why do I always forget this stuff?
Which Netscape?
6.2 like it says in the email title..

Lach
--------------------------------------
http://members.evolt.org/luminosity/
MSN: luminosity @ members.evolt.org
--------------------------------------

From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu  Sat Jun  8 01:09:00 2002
From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:09:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
In-Reply-To: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023516079.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
	(luminosity@members.evolt.org)
References: <20020607162206.7d6f1f4b.evolt@david.us-lot.org> <1025.139.130.216.191.1023516079.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200206080608.CAA26310@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>

which windows?

one possibility (win2k, networked):
	user profile dir. (it was c:\docs & settings\<username> when logged in,
	iirc) \ netscape or mozilla \ <username> or <default> or something -- it'll
	probably be the only thing in there \ <random-looking string> \
	bookmarks.html

or you could just search on 'bookmarks.html' . . .

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  8 01:25:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:25:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b07b9270990ed1c@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <3D011E2E.4543.9F0CEE61@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D016A69.28877.A036B1D7@localhost>

> From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
[...]
> Well, I've mentioned this very scenario here before but it is still
> the best illustration of what I'm talking about:
>
> A client gave me a requirement that the site navigation must be like
> an example site, which uses a horizontal frame along the bottom of the
> window. I had already promised myself to never unleash another
> frameset into the wild and wasn't interested in doing DHTML as I don't
> think it's possible to future proof DHTML yet.

eww... i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you
counseled the client on caveats...

> The only way I could figure out how to do this was to parse the
> userAgent and different stylesheets to NN 6. IE 5 Mac and IE 5+
> Windows.

see, i'm thinking that, as painful as it may seem, the frameset might
be a better way to guarantee similar look and capability... granted,
there are trade-offs (see my frames article), but then you weigh them
against the caveats with the CSS approach (which includes dev time,
in some cases)...

> It can't be done with @import unlwss you disregard IE 5 Mac and IE 4
> Win,  or disredard IE 5 and 5.5 Win ... if there's something that will
> simulate the effect with one stylesheet in all browsers that can do
> it, I don't know what it is.

again, if you want to hit all browsers, this might not have been my
approach...  but i'm also not privy to all the details...

> >but cool stuff usually (shouldn't be, for a general site) isn't
> >required to use a site, and if it is, then the site probably isn't
> >serving its audience well (or isn't serving an audience with any
> >NN4.x users)...
>
> As you say later, the client is always right ... and I'm not the type
> who is comfortable translating "It's difficult and maybe even not a
> good idea" into "It's not possible."

no, i understand that... sometimes i've had to tell a client "no,"
and not always because i *want* to, but because it's a bad idea...
there've been a few projects that i very much wanted to work on
*because* of the cool stuff i could do, but given the client's
audience requirements, i had to reel it in...

and that meshes with my above statement -- the site may not be
serving its audience... and if that happens, get it in writing, and
do it anyway...

> >  > I have two clients that insist
> >>  on continuing to use NN 4.x ... both use custom CMSs which are
> >>  stunningly beautiful in IE, Opera and NN 6+ ... I cannot get them
> >>  to switch. They like NN 4.x. Why? WHY? WWHHYYY? --
> >
> >- because you offer them no reason to, only reasons why it would be
> >better for you...
>
> I'd be happy to make the CMS section look better in NN 4.x if they'd
> be happy to pay me! ... but it seems they appreciate that I can just
> say <body>, <table>, and <td> and get stuff up quicker.

then you know their priority -- certainly not how it looks...

> >- if it ain't broke (which to them, it apparently isn't), don't fix
> >it...
>
> Right ... two weeks ago I felt nefarious enough to do a new page in
> thew CMS that is difficult to use in NN 4.x ... figured the timing was
> right as she's started to look at her site in IE occasionally ...
> failed, got a message "please don't bill me for that!"

yeah, i hate that... try to bait them down the right path, but they
still insist that all the copy on the page must be red, bold, all-
caps, italic, underlined, and blinking... oh, and with a drop
shadow... not that that's happened (ok, it has)...

> >hell, i'd still use Word 6.0 if the latest piece of bloatware didn't
> >come with this machine... i use none of the new features, and i don't
> >care if someone sends me a .doc with some neat-o something or other,
> >i usually just wanna read the copy anyway...
>
> I'm still with Office 97 Win and 98 Mac ... I find the attempt to make
> an free X-windows Word compatible word processor interesting ...
> OpenOffice OS X does not quite cut the mustard yet ... waiting.

played with it on win... still bloated because it tries too hard to
match features... that's why i use WordPad...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  8 01:41:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:41:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b08b9271101ab9f@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <3D012177.30828.9F19C194@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D016E3A.26957.A04599E0@localhost>

> From: Erik Mattheis <gozz at gozz.com>
> >>
> >>  >  > ~ document.write different <link> tags based on
> >>  >  > navigator.userAgent,
> >>  >>  use standard css for a <link> higher on the page, and just let
> >>  >>  NN
> >  > >>  4.x with JS disabled barf on it --
> >
> >it also means you're taking an all-or-nothing approach,
>
> No ... the <link> to a stylesheet with the non-funky stuff in the page
> takes care of all the non-funky stuff.

my point is, no JS, no CSS -- all or nothing...  so if i come in IE
or NN, i get the same based CSS from a <link>... but then you use JS
to write in another <link>... in NN4, without JS it's moot, but in IE
without JS, now i can't see it...

> >which can be
> >completely avoided with either server-side browser detection (which
> >is only a step above client-side, IMO),
>
> Many steps below IMO!!!: a page intended for a certain browser can be
> served by a proxy server to a browser for which it was not intended.
> BAD!

this is a good point -- which, actually, is why i have *no* browser
detection in any of my scripts...  unfortunately, i have a couple
DHTML menus on sites that do that, though, but then again, that's
what they do...

> >  or, essentially capability
> >testing by using @import...
>
> See previous post ... can't _always_ rely on that working.

i haven't had any problems...  not yet at least...

to me, it's like using an if document.images to see if the browser
can do rollovers, vs. trying to keep track of all browsers that can
do rollovers and feeding them into a detection script...

> >i consider creating a valid page and then writing HTML into it via JS
> >a hack (moreso if you're writing in invalid HTML)...
> >
> >that's mostly a personal preference, but it also eases maintenance
> >and compatibility...
>
> Well, I'm of the opinion that it's still more important to make HTML
> that a browser thinks as "valid" than the W3C thinks is "valid" ... it
> is curious that WWW can mean World Wide Web and Wish it Would Work and
> Wild Wild West.

luckily, i've been able to pull of both... valid pages, render as
intended, with some planned variance across browsers... but again, i
have the advantage of designing them to have variance before i even
code... not all of us have that luxury...

> Also to me: something that depends on a browser flaw - not
> understanding @import for example is more accurately a "hack" .

see above, it's not a flaw, it's just not a supported method... it's
also valid code... and it's used as intended...  the only thing about
that may give your argument creedence is that little lack of
consistency when you use a <link> and @import on the same page, but
there's nothing in the specs suggesting that its bad...

document.images vs. browser detect...

if we espouse capability testing in JS, why not with CSS?

> Yes, it is harder to maintain, but so are almost all high-performance
> things ... web-related and otherwise.

no, not high-performance -- over-engineered...

when you say high performance, i think of a site that hauls ass under
a stressul load and really does a lot of work for its users... not a
site that has DHTML and CSS widgets...

i'd call that high-design, if i use 'high' at all to describe it...

my jaguar is expensive, beautiful, and fast... but it's in the shop
every month... my civic isn't bad, and i changed the oil once... they
both get me to work...

a stretch, but my point should be clear...

> >my response to that response is that turning off JS doesn't penalize
> >me at all... it penalizes some sites that don't let me use their nav
> >(but i just go elsewhere),
>
> The site penalizes itself!

exactly!

> >  it prevents the hassle of banner windows,
>
> OK, point taken ... FYI these cookies alleviate the majority of the
> headache: http://technoerotica.net/mylog/optouts.html

i have a hosts file that eats banner ads, so even when i do turn JS
on, any new windows just 404...  i'll hafta look at the cookie
thingy, though...

> >it speeds up my system,
>
> Damn!

beaver!

> >  and for IE/win, it prevents many security
> >issues...
>
> Microsoft penalizes everyone!

we're a penal colony, then!

[...]
> I'm not suggesting requiring JS to access the core features of a site
> ... just that I think it's acceptable to require JS for "value-added"
> features, such as a presentation exactly as you intend.

i understand that... sometimes, though, it's easy to lose track of
how a core feature can be impacted if the developer relies on things
(like in the UI, for instance) that won't be there without the
support of JS/CSS...

[...]
> I wasn't saying the pot is calling the kettle black, rather that it's
> completely acceptable to offer "extras" to a subset of your site's
> visitors.

yes, and i've always agreed with that... note that my article propose
something that doesn't hurt those who can't support it...  otherwise,
i'd never have written it...

> Agreed ... both in regard to NN 4.x and for things you can do without
> JS or the risk of a proxy server screwing the site up. But again,
> there are some things that if you want to do them, you have no choice
> than to rely on JS. Really! Trust me!

oh, i know... like i said, that screen stats article is one of
them... i considered it a necessary evil to gather data since that
data was going to be used to customize *for* the user...

and then people like isaac come in surfing full-screen across two
monitors and screw up my numbers...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From mpember at phreaker.net  Sat Jun  8 01:44:00 2002
From: mpember at phreaker.net (Michael Pemberton)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:44:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <3D01A7A8.7000000@phreaker.net>

Kevin wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to work in
>Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it doesn't work, unless
>I turn off  "friendly error messages".
>
One other solution may be to trick IE into thinking it was successful.
 For example, sending a 200 response instead of a 404 error.

--
Michael Pemberton
mpember at phreaker.net
ICQ: 12107010

From luminosity at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 01:51:00 2002
From: luminosity at members.evolt.org (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Sat Jun  8 01:51:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
In-Reply-To: <200206080608.CAA26310@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>
References: <200206080608.CAA26310@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>
Message-ID: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023519051.squirrel@members.evolt.org>

Jonathon Isaac Swiderski said:
> which windows?
>
> one possibility (win2k, networked):
> 	user profile dir. (it was c:\docs & settings\<username> when logged
> 	in, iirc) \ netscape or mozilla \ <username> or <default> or
> 	something -- it'll probably be the only thing in there \
> 	<random-looking string> \ bookmarks.html
>
> or you could just search on 'bookmarks.html' . . .

Hmm.. not one of the 7 bookmarks.html files in my netscape folder contained
my bookmarks...

Windows 98, btw

Lach
--------------------------------------
http://members.evolt.org/luminosity/
MSN: luminosity @ members.evolt.org
--------------------------------------

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 03:27:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b07b9270990ed1c@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <B9278F05.1F27%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Erik Mattheis:

> It can't be done with @import unlwss you disregard IE 5 Mac and IE 4
> Win,  or disredard IE 5 and 5.5 Win ... if there's something that
> will simulate the effect with one stylesheet in all browsers that can
> do it, I don't know what it is.

Pardon me for jumping in here, but the above isn't accurate or is at least
incomplete. Observe:

@import: url(ie4AndUpGeckoOpera.css);
    @import: "ie5AndUpGeckoOpera.css";

</style>

There are other ways of hiding either individual rules or whole stylesheets
from various browsers.

See:

<http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/highpass.html>
<http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/>

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    Well-being and happiness never appeared to
    me as an absolute aim. I am even inclined
    to compare such moral aims to the ambitions
    of a pig.
    -----------------------------------<< Albert Einstein >>

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 03:38:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b08b9271101ab9f@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <B927918D.1F2F%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Erik Mattheis:

>>  or, essentially capability
>> testing by using @import...
>
> See previous post ... can't _always_ rely on that working.

If you are referring to the assertion that you cannot distinguish between,
say, IE 4/Win and IE 5/Mac solely via @import, see previous methods for
refinements of that technique and other techniques that work.

If you're referring to something else, I'd *very* much like to know more.

> Also to me: something that depends on a browser flaw - not
> understanding @import for example is more accurately a "hack" .

I disagree. You're testing for a feature, and when that feature isn't
available you then assume a certain level of support for other features (or,
in this case, lack thereof). It's defensive coding. Instead of sorting each
version and microversion of every browser (OmniWeb, Konqueror, iCab,
Netscape 4.x, Gecko-based, IE 5 Mac, IE/Win, IE 4.x Mac, etc.) you sort
based on features. Much more extensible and less maintenance in the long
run.

True enough, but sorting browsers based on CSS support isn't one of them.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    If you're not failing every now and again,
    it's a sign you're not doing anything
    very innovative.
   ----------------------------------------<< Woody Allen >>

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sat Jun  8 03:47:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why? [OT: lemmings]
References: <NDBBLLCLKJDNHHNPAAHHGEDMDPAA.Ed@ComSimplicity.com> <3D00CCA4.7A4DD3B6@nthwave.net>
Message-ID: <3D01C4A3.7040309@cyberfuddle.com>

Michael Mell wrote:
>
> Ed McCarroll wrote:
>
> http://www.snopes2.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm

> Origins:   Lemming suicide is fiction. Contrary to popular belief,
> lemmings do
>            not periodically hurl themselves off of cliffs . . .

Unless, of course, the player was asleep and forgot to put in a blocker
or builder in time...

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabbel/

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sat Jun  8 03:54:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 03:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <17AD2C86-7A30-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <3D01C635.4030505@cyberfuddle.com>

Chris Kaminski wrote:
>
> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 09:40 AM, Mark Gallagher wrote:
>
>> I know from experience that
>>
>>   @import "foo.css";
>>
>> isn't understood by IE4
>
> But /is/ understood by Mac IE 4.5, if ya wanna be picky about it.

It's a point!  A palpable point![0]

I kind of forget about Mac IE.  Windows IE is such a problem at times
that I forget there's a version for Mac as well.  The fact I don't have
access to a Mac to test IE helps, too.

[0] Sorry, just resorted to Shakespearean heroine mode their.  Urgh.

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 04:00:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:00:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D01C635.4030505@cyberfuddle.com>
Message-ID: <B92796C8.1F36%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Mark Gallagher:

> I kind of forget about Mac IE.  Windows IE is such a problem at times
> that I forget there's a version for Mac as well.  The fact I don't have
> access to a Mac to test IE helps, too.

As does the fact that for most sites Mac IE versions < 5.x make up a tiny
portion of the traffic. The logs for the sites I've developed in the last
year or so have all indicated that it really isn't worth troubling over from
a dollars'n'cents perspective.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    The pure and simple truth is rarely pure
    and never simple.
    ---------------------------------------<< Oscar Wilde >>

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sat Jun  8 04:14:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:14:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] div elements
References: <F286cR3a82L3IbiUltP00018788@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D01CB08.6050806@cyberfuddle.com>

Pablo Oliva wrote:
> I need a block level element thought because I have padding around each of
> the 3 sets of items.  Is there any work-around?

Try floating each DIV to the left.  Or, perhaps, using display: inline;
(both are unpredictable, but give it a go)

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 04:18:01 2002
From: andrew at uk-webdeveloper.co.uk (Andrew Maynes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] $user_license_number = "123456";
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOENCCNAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDAHDEEMAGMPBCPCOEHBCPAA.andrew@uk-webdeveloper.co.uk>

I am thinking about putting a $user_license_number = "00000000";
within a php program does anyone have any ideas hw to go about this?

and whether it is actually worth doing it?

Andrew
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.368 / Virus Database: 204 - Release Date: 5/29/02

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sat Jun  8 04:22:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:22:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <3D01CCE9.7040808@cyberfuddle.com>

Kevin wrote:
 > Hello,
 >
 > I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to
 > work in Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it
 > doesn't work, unless I turn off  "friendly error messages".

Turn off friendly error messages, perhaps?

IE (irritatingly, and stupidly) occasionally supplies its own error
pages rather than allow the server to supply its own.  There's nothing
that can be done for the user, unless you try putting the following
snippet of HTML on your front page:

<p>
   If you're using IE, then to get the full effect of our 404 error
   pages, please turn off "friendly error messages" (go to Tools >
   Options > Advanced > Turn Off Friendly Error Messages), then
   click the following link:
   </p>
   <p>
   <a href="foobar.snafu">404 page!</a>
   </p>

(note: only works if you don't have a file named foobar.snafu in the
same directory as your homepage)

--
Mark Gallagher

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sat Jun  8 04:30:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:30:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
References: <01c20dd5$1596e180$bfe8059a@rudy>	 <3CFFFDAC.9441.9AA5F09B@localhost> <a05111b01b9265ecdd35d@[192.168.1.100]> <3D01467C.6FC0227B@nthwave.net> <a05111b05b926f9b635e4@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <3D01CEBB.1040803@cyberfuddle.com>

Erik Mattheis wrote:
> At 4:49 PM -0700 6/7/02, Michael Mell wrote:
>
>> Erik Mattheis wrote:
>>
>>>  And really, there are things that you _have_ to serve different stuff
>>>  ... either with JS or a cookie as you suggest in your fine article.
>>
>>
>> I really disagree -- I do site development all day long for Netscape
>> 4, IE
>> 4,5&6, Opera 5 on Mac, PC for designers who have no concept of working
>> within the constraints of html. I never, ever (except maybe once in a
>> moment
>> of weakness) serve anything different for any platform. Sure, the layout
>> looks a little different on each but so what? Everyone gets a good
>> page. You
>> just have to work at it.
>
> If you had to, how would you use one stylesheet to

Why restrict yourself to one stylesheet?

> - use scroll:

Er, you mean overflow:, right?  If it's not crucial, then just use it
fine.  Opera will simply let the text flow outside its box, which may
look ugly, but is still usable.  If it *is* crucial, well, rethink your
design.

> - style form elements

There's a school of thought that says styleing form elements is bad.  I
don't belong to it, but I just thought I'd point that out anyway.

In the case of Netscape 4 (screws up most styled elements, doesn't show
styled <textarea>s at all), simply call the stylesheet containing these
styles via @import.

In the case of Opera (doesn't want to know about styled elements), well,
TS.  Your design should survive without them.

> - set body margins to a true 0px

You're actually setting body *padding* to 0px, but somewhere along the
line margin: 0; set in as the "norm".

Do this:
   body {
         margin: 0;
         padding: 0;
         }

To get around any inconvenient bouts of correctness from Opera.

> Sure, there's a ton of CSS that will render pretty much the same in
> the majority of browsers ... but some cool stuff that will not.

True.

>> Disclaimer:
>> I do layout using tables and don't plan on changing any time soon.
>
> As do I for the most part.
>
> Back to the subject: of the thread ... I have two clients that insist
> on continuing to use NN 4.x ... both use custom CMSs which are
> stunningly beautiful in IE, Opera and NN 6+ ... I cannot get them to
> switch. They like NN 4.x. Why? WHY? WWHHYYY?

Perhaps they just like the feel of using the browser.  Until recently,
Netscape (4.x and below) was an extremely solid browser, and even the
*look* of the thing seemed to scream "I'm not gonna crash!"  If only IE
could do the same thing :o)

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 04:52:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 04:52:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <7E8C1353-7A8A-11D6-89AB-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B927A313.1F3F%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Martin Burns:

> In any case, let's pretend for a moment that you've been approached by
> the DOJ, or an organisation, or a private individual, who is accusing
> you of being non-accessible to a particular disability.
>
> What's your best defence? Being accessible.
> How do you prove it? "Here's how we meet these independent standards of
> accessibility"
> Which standard is going to give you your strongest argument in the US?
> The one that the DOJ already agrees provides sufficient accessibility.
> WAI would be the next one.

Martin, since your CV is silent on the matter, would you please enlighten me
as to your qualifications for giving advice on U.S. Federal law? Where and
when did you earn your Juris Doctor? In which state(s) have you passed the
Bar exam?

I am either misunderstanding your arguments, or they run counter to those
put forward by practicing lawyers in the U.S, who are far less certain about
the general applicability of Section 508 of the Workforce Investment Act of
1998, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973-1992 and the Americans With
Disabilities Act of 1990 to privately-owned Web sites not belonging to
government contractors. I would be interested in your background so that I
might better evaluate your claims vis a vis those I have heard elsewhere,

I would also be interested in your opinion of the potential liability of
text-based sites that do not provide an image-based or audio alternative for
users with learning impairments.

Lastly, I would very much like to read the previous post you've referred to
several times. I have searched the archives for the last three weeks or so
and cannot find it. A subject line or specific date would be most helpful.

Thank you.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    People demand freedom of speech as a
    compensation for the freedom of thought
    which they seldom use.
    ---------------------------------<< Soren Kierkegaard >>

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Sat Jun  8 05:19:01 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Sat Jun  8 05:19:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ns6.2
In-Reply-To: <1025.139.130.216.191.1023519051.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
References: <200206080608.CAA26310@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>
	<1025.139.130.216.191.1023519051.squirrel@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20020608112025.3b1aa24b.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 16:50:51 +1000 (EST)
"Lachlan Cannon" <luminosity at members.evolt.org> wrote:

> Jonathon Isaac Swiderski said:

> Hmm.. not one of the 7 bookmarks.html files in my netscape folder
> contained my bookmarks...
>
> Windows 98, btw

I'm fairly sure that Windows has a "find files called" feature
dangling off the start menu somewhere. I suggest setting it to scan
your hard disk for all files called bookmarks.html

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Sat Jun  8 05:21:01 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Sat Jun  8 05:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <3D01A7A8.7000000@phreaker.net>
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
	<3D01A7A8.7000000@phreaker.net>
Message-ID: <20020608112212.3fd3e8ef.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:43:52 +1000
Michael Pemberton <mpember at phreaker.net> wrote:

> Kevin wrote:

> >I asked my host to setup a custom 404 document and it only seems to
> >work in Netscape and Opera. When I attempt to test it on IE it
> >doesn't work, unless I turn off "friendly error messages".

> One other solution may be to trick IE into thinking it was
> successful.  For example, sending a 200 response instead of a 404
> error.

Unfortunatly that would trick robots in to thinking it was a 200 pages
rather then a 404 page - and they would index it. You could end up
with a lot of 404 pages being listed in a search engine.

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Sat Jun  8 05:40:00 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Sat Jun  8 05:40:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
Message-ID: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer>

Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not displaying <alt> info?

Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au  Sat Jun  8 06:02:01 2002
From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig)
Date: Sat Jun  8 06:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] viewing document.write HTML souce code
References: <20020607181500.59919.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c20edb$ef5c8580$84ebdccb@max1>

> Is there anyway, if you are using document.write() to view the ACTUAL code
that is written to the
> page? Obviously view source shows you your code, but not what was actually
written out.
>
> Tom

A view-source with Netscape Communicator 4.79 will show the actual code that
the script produces.
e.g: if in your script you have: document.write ("Test"), a view-source in
Internet Explorer will display the actual script, whereas view-source in
Netscape Communicator 4.79 will show what the script "spits out".

Craig.

From Liorean at user.bip.net  Sat Jun  8 07:00:01 2002
From: Liorean at user.bip.net (Liorean)
Date: Sat Jun  8 07:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
In-Reply-To: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608135046.00b3c978@pop3.bip.net>

At 03:37 2002-06-08 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not displaying
><alt> info?

Heh... It's not a bug - it's a feature.

Mozilla decided to follow the W3C recommended behavior of using title
attribute alone for tool tips, and using alt as it should be used, in other
words alt display instead of the image if it by any reason, client or
server side alike, is not available. (For example if you browse with images
disabled.)

So, this is not a bug, and it certainly will not be fixed, as it's the
correct behavior. That browsers in the past has behaved differently doesn't
justify any deviation from the standards by Mozilla.

// Liorean

From mlimburg at sourceforge.net  Sat Jun  8 08:12:04 2002
From: mlimburg at sourceforge.net (Mark Limburg)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers
Message-ID: <3D01F66A.9000401@sourceforge.net>

Oh source's of wisdom and knowledge :)

I *had* a script bookmarked which allowed the confuddling of PNG Alpha Layers
in IE.  However, my bookmark list did not survive the quite recent time when
my hard drive tried to eat itself.  A half on hour on google has not brought
home the bacon .. so I turn to the enlightened list :)

--
Mark W Limburg          mlimburg at users.sourceforge.net
Developer, Geeklog     http://geeklog.sourceforge.net/

From szh at hotpop.com  Sat Jun  8 08:26:03 2002
From: szh at hotpop.com (Syed Zeeshan Haider)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript and Form Validation Trickery Not Working
References: <20020607233352.89B1339A0@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <004601c20ebc$a74431e0$070487cb@haidersystem>

Hi Ben,
I have been trying to create such dynamic colour changes in my forms for
last many months. Like you, I also use JS and it's my observation that
Netscape Navigator is less cooperative with JS and CSS than Internet
Explorer, specially for this type of dynamic JS. I have some
JS-validated forms which do not work even with NN 6 at all but they work
with IE 5.5 very well.
Your JS will not work with NN 4 because of lack of support. This JS does
not work with Opera 6 also; I have tried it. For such situations, I
presume that "80% web surfers are IE users". So, we have to be
optimistic.
Hope this helps.
Syed Zeeshan Haider.
http://syedzeeshanhaider.faithweb.com/

----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:52:17 -0500
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
From: Ben Dyer <ben_dyer at imaginuity.com>
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript and Form Validation Trickery Not Working
Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org

Let me preface this by saying my expertise in JavaScript is practically
nil.

I've been experimenting with the way I do form validation by changing
the
background color of fields that don't validate, like so:

function verify_form() {

error_color = '#FFD8D8';

}

And then on the form field:

Now then, this correctly turns the field a shade of light red in IE5/6,
Netscape 6 but not in Netscape 4.  I expected it not to work in NN4,
that's
not the problem.  The problem is that Netscape 4, does the error
message,
focuses on the field, doesn't color it red but skips the return false;
line
and submits the form without any further validation.

Is there any way to fix this for NN4 without removing the color change?

--Ben

Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/

Whatever it is, I'm sure that I was just about to get to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
   http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/     http://www.evolt.org/

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 08:51:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 08:51:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <B9278F05.1F27%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <9E616052-7AE6-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 09:37  am, Chris Kaminski wrote:

>> It can't be done with @import unlwss you disregard IE 5 Mac and IE 4
>> Win,  or disredard IE 5 and 5.5 Win ... if there's something that
>> will simulate the effect with one stylesheet in all browsers that can
>> do it, I don't know what it is.
>
> Pardon me for jumping in here, but the above isn't accurate or is at
> least
> incomplete. Observe:
>
> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen"
> href="everyone.css" />
>
> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/jsss" media="screen"
> href="nn4only.js" />
>
> <style type="text/css" media="screen">
>
>     @import: url(ie4AndUpGeckoOpera.css);
>     @import: "ie5AndUpGeckoOpera.css";
>
> </style>

Here's a thought. IE4.5/Mac obeys @import syntax from within an embedded
stylesheet.

Does it obey @import syntax from an external stylesheet called from
<link rel>?
Does it obey @import syntax from an external stylesheet called from
@import?

In a stylesheet containing both @import statements and rules, rules in
the stylesheet take precedence over those in the @import. But as I
understand it, support for this is patchy. Is IE4.5/Mac one of the
browsers which doesn't obey this?

Can someone with IE4.5/Mac test this?

Test case 1:

In the HTML:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all"
href="one_and_only.css" />

in one_and_only.css:
@import: url(advanced_rules.css);
/* basic stuff follows */

Test case 2:
In the HTML:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" href="basic.css" />
<style type="text/css" media="screen">
     @import: url(advanced.css);
</style>

in advanced.css:
@import: url(real_advanced_rules.css);

Test case 3:
In the HTML:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" href="basic.css" />
<style type="text/css" media="screen">
     @import: url(advanced.css);
</style>

in advanced.css:
@import:
url
(ie_45_rules_which_dont_do_anything_advanced_but_have_the_same_selectors.css)
;
/*Real Advanced stuff follows */

From max at prodok.com  Sat Jun  8 09:17:01 2002
From: max at prodok.com (Max Wyss)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:17:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <4D60A9C5-7A2F-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>
References: <4D60A9C5-7A2F-11D6-83EF-0003931B427C@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <a0501040cb927c14d38c8@[168.191.120.42]>

For example... And they could be good customers...

Max Wyss.

_____________________

>>  Consider being in a big organization with a very tight control over
>>  the individual computers, there is no freedom of choice of a
>>  browser... you have to use what you get.
>
>Like, say, the German military, where NN4.x on WinNT4 is the *only*
>allowed combination for workstations....
>

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 09:20:00 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:20:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B927A313.1F3F%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <YUOI2X2YT53JHJDROOFDGENMOJHBD9.3d021215@DANFASCIA-21>

>Martin, since your CV is silent on the matter, would you please enlighten me
>as to your qualifications for giving advice on U.S. Federal law? Where and
>when did you earn your Juris Doctor? In which state(s) have you passed the
>Bar exam?

Nor has Martin got a degree in Web design but he is still a very knowledgeable authority
on the subject! I dont believe a qualification means a thing... How many of us here
have degrees in IT or web design?

Sure you need a qualification (many infact) to practice law but you sure dont need
one to understand or interpret laws. A brain is sufficient I would have thought... Im
surer there are US lawyers who are stupider than Martin who are in your eyes
*qualified* to interpret Section 508!

From mpember at phreaker.net  Sat Jun  8 09:22:01 2002
From: mpember at phreaker.net (Michael Pemberton)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:22:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
References: <001101c20e71$18632800$6501a8c0@irubinmain>	<3D01A7A8.7000000@phreaker.net> <20020608112212.3fd3e8ef.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <3D0212D6.5090907@phreaker.net>

David Dorward wrote:

>Unfortunatly that would trick robots in to thinking it was a 200 pages
>rather then a 404 page - and they would index it. You could end up
>with a lot of 404 pages being listed in a search engine.
>
>
Then I would suggest using the evolt method of detecting these bots and
treating them accordingly.

Also, you could detect users with IE and only alter the response header
for them.

This is the only way to get IE to act in the prefered method.

--
Michael Pemberton
mpember at phreaker.net
ICQ: 12107010

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 09:32:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:32:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a0501040cb927c14d38c8@[168.191.120.42]>
Message-ID: <6EC041D6-7AEC-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 03:13  pm, Max Wyss wrote:

> For example... And they could be good customers...

Another example - more than one of the UK big 4 banks run their front
office systems on OS2, and have browser-based applications for a lot of
customer facing work (eg mortgage applications). Staff also use them as
intranet access points.

OS2 won't run IE - all these machines are NN4.

Cheers
Martin

>>>  Consider being in a big organization with a very tight control over
>>>  the individual computers, there is no freedom of choice of a
>>>  browser... you have to use what you get.
>>
>> Like, say, the German military, where NN4.x on WinNT4 is the *only*
>> allowed combination for workstations....
_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID:	0xA835CCCB
	martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail:	30 Shandon Place
   tel:	+44 (0)774 063 9985				Edinburgh,
   url:	http://www.easyweb.co.uk			Scotland

From max at prodok.com  Sat Jun  8 09:37:00 2002
From: max at prodok.com (Max Wyss)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:37:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <6EC041D6-7AEC-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
References: <6EC041D6-7AEC-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a0501040eb927c6676ba5@[168.191.120.42]>

Actually, I have seen OS/2 based applications in quite a few banks,
and those applications are happily churning along...

However, such applications could be more considered to be closed user
group applications, meaning that if you work for them, you know what
to program for... and it would be just for that.

Max Wyss.

__________________________

>>  For example... And they could be good customers...
>
>Another example - more than one of the UK big 4 banks run their front
>office systems on OS2, and have browser-based applications for a lot of
>customer facing work (eg mortgage applications). Staff also use them as
>intranet access points.
>
>OS2 won't run IE - all these machines are NN4.
>

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 09:57:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:57:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <YUOI2X2YT53JHJDROOFDGENMOJHBD9.3d021215@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <B927EA52.1F63%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Daniel Fascia:

> Sure you need a qualification (many infact) to practice law but you sure dont
> need one to understand or interpret laws. A brain is sufficient I would have
> thought... Im surer there are US lawyers who are stupider than Martin who are
> in your eyes *qualified* to interpret Section 508!

Firstly, I don't know Martin from a bowl of tapioca pudding, and I expect he
knows me just as well. I'm asking for his background relevant to the topic
area (not, in this case, making accessible Web sites, but the application of
the ADA and Section 508 to privately-owned sites) that I might better weigh
his opinion.

Do *you* believe everything you read in an e-mail from an unknown source?
Somehow I doubt it.

In any event, simply having a brain and using it does /not/ enable one to
correctly predict the outcome of a given court case, especially a
hypothetical one where most of the facts are necessarily unknown.

With programming, you compile the code and run it. If it works, you were
correct. With Web design, you view it in the browser and have users test it.
If it works, you were right. With U.S. law, you must go to court.

When predicting the outcome of a case under Section 508 or the ADA, the
statutes themselves are not terribly meaningful in isolation. Their full
import can only be understood in the context of court decisions (controlling
precedent, various orders of persuasive precedent), regulatory rulings (an
entirely separate body of law), the remainder of the U.S. Code and
appropriate state and local laws.

Moreover, in the U.S. at least, legal language is loaded with terms of art
and constructs that have been parsed, argued, debated and dissected through
decades, even centuries, of legislation and litigation. They have very
precise meanings that aren't always obvious to a layperson.

In the case of Web design, Martin's CV, assuming it's accurate (and I have
no reason to believe he's dishonest so I'm discounting the possibility
unless I note something that indicates otherwise), demonstrates a fair body
of experience to draw from. His evaluations in that area carry corresponding
weight.

However, his site gives little indication that he has similar experience
predicting the decisions of U.S. judges and/or juries. I would like to know
what background he has that enables him to make judgments about U.S. law, as
others with more readily apparent backgrounds have made statements that
appear to contradict his.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    God is in the TV
    ------------------------------------<< Marilyn Manson >>

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 09:59:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 09:59:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a0501040eb927c6676ba5@[168.191.120.42]>
Message-ID: <2F4D7407-7AF0-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 03:36  pm, Max Wyss wrote:

> However, such applications could be more considered to be closed user
> group applications, meaning that if you work for them, you know what
> to program for... and it would be just for that.

Which is fine if you're told about it.

But the way I found out about OS apps in a front office banking
environment was when I was working for one of those banks on their
intranet, and we suddenly got a lot of calls that it was 'broken'.
Reason being, we'd been told that it was NT/IE4+ only, but then they
opened it to all the Customer Service staff.

Built more flexibly with less strict dependencies on target user
platforms, this wouldn't have caused the vast amount of hassle it did.
Ever tried changing the coding in a multi-thousand (actually multi-10^4)
page intranet with hundreds of authors who code static pages with
FrontPage?

Assumptions are Bad Things. They tend to bite you in the bum.

From Evolt at ZName.com  Sat Jun  8 10:25:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Sat Jun  8 10:25:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <3D01CCE9.7040808@cyberfuddle.com>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMKEIBAOAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

======================
IE (irritatingly, and stupidly) occasionally supplies its own error
pages rather than allow the server to supply its own.  There's nothing
that can be done for the user
======================

Except that IE will NOT supply its own if the custom document is "large
enough".

In that case, IE "recognizes" that it is a custom document and displays it
"as is" instead of substituting a "friendly".

James S. Huggins

...

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  8 10:27:01 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Jun  8 10:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B927EA52.1F63%chris@setmajer.com>
References: <YUOI2X2YT53JHJDROOFDGENMOJHBD9.3d021215@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <3D01E977.21303.A22702AE@localhost>

> From: Chris Kaminski <chris at setmajer.com>
[...]
> Firstly, I don't know Martin from a bowl of tapioca pudding, and I
[...]

i have met a bowl of tapioca pudding, and martin, sir, is not a bowl
of tapioca pudding...  my brain this morning, on the other hand...

> In any event, simply having a brain and using it does /not/ enable one
> to correctly predict the outcome of a given court case, especially a
> hypothetical one where most of the facts are necessarily unknown.

[i'm not arguing martin's qualifications here, but i am arguing that
you don't need to be a lawyer to predict legal outcomes]

this is correct, however, looking at caselaw from similar cases in
countries with similar laws, coupled with public opinion at the time,
as well as other factors, including how risky you want to be, can
give you a good idea of where things are headed...

ianal, and i thank the stars every day, but i do stay on top of legal
trends in subject areas that impact me, and i've been working with
accessibility issues for more than 10 years now for everything from
web sites to concert venues to playgrounds... one thing *i've*
learned is that you're much better off erring on the side of caution
when it comes to accessibility...

> With programming, you compile the code and run it. If it works, you
> were correct. With Web design, you view it in the browser and have
> users test it. If it works, you were right. With U.S. law, you must go
> to court.

i would disagree here... you don't have to go to court... you can, as
i say above, watch trends, interpret the laws, and ply the risk...

> When predicting the outcome of a case under Section 508 or the ADA,
> the statutes themselves are not terribly meaningful in isolation.
> Their full import can only be understood in the context of court
> decisions (controlling precedent, various orders of persuasive
> precedent), regulatory rulings (an entirely separate body of law), the
> remainder of the U.S. Code and appropriate state and local laws.
[...]

absolutely...  and context extends beyond that to things like public
opinion (did a blind man recently fall down a well that was
unmarked?) to international law from similar-enough countries (did UK
banks get successfully sued by blind users, did SOCOG have to settle
their olympic site fiasco and spend lots of $$?)

so, no, i'm not really challenging your points, but i do believe
there is a lot more room for non-legal professionals to track and
qualify legal issues...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From Evolt at ZName.com  Sat Jun  8 11:16:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Sat Jun  8 11:16:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] custom 404 document
In-Reply-To: <000d01c20e71$49f59600$8001a8c0@martinlaptop>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMIEIKAOAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

==========================
> Try padding the file size of your 404 page (add some comments

Blank transparent images tend to be good here... A nice 100x100 pixel
gif... Transparent... Yummy... height="1" width="1" Filesize over a
couple of k and your set.
==========================

Are you sure?

I don't know, but I was told that the number or size of referenced graphics
had no effect, and that the page size mattered (i.e., the size of the
actual, referenced, html document), but not the size of any referenced
graphics within that document, or any SSI included files, etc.

James S. Huggins

...

From headlemur at clearskymail.com  Sat Jun  8 11:59:01 2002
From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur)
Date: Sat Jun  8 11:59:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
References: <B927EA52.1F63%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <016c01c20f0d$a5306940$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com>

The ADA applies to Physical Structures and Access to Buildings that are open
to the public in the United States.

Section 508 does only apply to US Government websites and agencies regarding
purchases of equipment and accommodations for the disabled.

The Harkin Letter is the smoking gun that adds ammunition to the theory that
if your business has wide doorways and grabbars your website should as well.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/cltr204.txt
============================================<snip>
September 9, 1996

The Honorable Tom Harkin
United States Senate
Washington, D.C.  20510-1502

Dear Senator Harkin:

I am responding to your letter on behalf of your
constituent,               , regarding accessibility of "web
pages" on the Internet to people with visual disabilities.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires State and
local governments and places of public accommodation to furnish
appropriate auxiliary aids and services where necessary to ensure
effective communication with individuals with disabilities,
unless doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the
program or service or in an undue burden.  28 C.F.R.  36.303; 28
C.F.R.  35.160.  Auxiliary aids include taped texts, Brailled
materials, large print materials, and other methods of making
visually delivered material available to people with visual
impairments.

Covered entities under the ADA are required to provide
effective communication, regardless of whether they generally
communicate through print media, audio media, or computerized
media such as the Internet.  Covered entities that use the
Internet for communications regarding their programs, goods, or
services must be prepared to offer those communications through
accessible means as well.

Mr.          suggests compatibility with the Lynx browser as
a means of assuring accessibility of the Internet.  Lynx is,
however, only one of many available options.  Other examples
include providing the web page information in text format, rather
than exclusively in graphic format.  Such text is accessible to
screen reading devices used by people with visual impairments.
Instead of providing full accessibility through the Internet
directly, covered entities may also offer other alternate
accessible formats, such as Braille, large print, and/or audio
materials, to communicate the information contained in web pages
to people with visual impairments.  The availability of such
materials should be noted in a text (i.e., screen-readable)
format on the web page, along with instructions for obtaining the
materials, so that people with disabilities using the Internet
will know how to obtain the accessible formats.

The Internet is an excellent source of information and, of
course, people with disabilities should have access to it as
effectively as people without disabilities.  A number of web
sites provide information about accessibility of web pages,
including information about new developments and guidelines for
development of accessible web pages.  Examples include:

http://www.gsa.gov/coca/wwwcode.htm
          Center for Information Technology Accommodation
          General Services Administration

http://www.trace.wisc.edu/text/guidelns
          Trace Center, University of Wisconsin

http://www.webable.com/index.html

http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/dmd/access/welcom1.htm

These sites may be useful to you or your constituent in
exploring the accessibility options on the Internet.  In
addition, the Department of Justice has established an ADA home
page to educate people about their rights and responsibilities
under the ADA and about the Department's efforts to implement the
ADA.  The address of the ADA home page is
http://www.us-doj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm.

I hope this information is helpful to you in responding to
your constituent.

Sincerely,

Deval L. Patrick
                   Assistant Attorney General
                     Civil Rights Division

===================================================</snip>

The problem here is that even though this letter is a pretty clear
indication that you should build accessible sites, the rule of law as Chris
points out has not resulted in a ruling that we can point to and say this is
why.

The nearest miss was the lawsuit by the National Federation of the Blind
Against AOL.
NFB Sues AOL
http://204.245.133.32/bm/bm99/bm991201.htm

It was settled out of court:
National Federation of the Blind/America Online Accessibility Agreement
http://204.245.133.32/Tech/accessibility.htm

This lawsuit put forth the theory that AOL was a Public Accommodation and
therefore subject to the ADA.

The question of public accommodations remains.

There really is no reason especially with the latest version of Flash that
Usability, and Accessibility need to be mutually exclusive.
An article at Poytner.Org
INTERACTIVE PRESENTATIONS GIVE THE INTERNET A VOICE OF ITS OWN
http://www.poynter.org/centerpiece/immerse/immersive.htm

suggests that HTML and Flash can enhance each other rather than being an
eithwer/or situation.

the head lemur
News: http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
Interviews: http://www.lemurzone.com/pixelview/
Standards: http://webstandards.org
Community: http://www.evolt.org

From ashok at magicalkenya.com  Sat Jun  8 13:00:01 2002
From: ashok at magicalkenya.com (ashok at magicalkenya.com)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript and Form Validation Trickery Not Working
Message-ID: <OFD73B5CA4.E6A15191-ON43256BD2.004C7354@symphony.co.ke>

> document.forms[0].txtUsername.style.backgroundColor = .....

i dont think this method is supported in nn4 for <input> tags.  Cant you
just dump that browser ? though i know quite a few people still use
it....:)

What you could possibly do is use the layer writing abilites of nn4 to
apply a div with a  different background color around the empty input box.
(though this would mean your input box is not colored but the background of
your input box is coloured ! ). :

apply a <div> around to each <input> element.
in the example i have one called container1.
set a style in the stylesheet for this id and make it absolute with a white
background color:
something like :
#container1 {position:absolute;layer-background-color:white; }
you will also probably need to specify left, top , right etc. coordinates.

in the form :

you will need to apply a different IDed <div> tag for each <input > field.
you can try this , though it seems a bit too much to do to just build in
support for nn4.

HTH
ashok

------
Ashok Hariharan
http://www.unganisha.org
Disclaimer : The contents of this mail should not be construed as  a "if
you attack me, I'll blast your arse" veiled threat
------

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 13:16:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:16:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <016c01c20f0d$a5306940$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com>
Message-ID: <B22C8F16-7B0B-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 05:57  pm, the head lemur wrote:

> The Harkin Letter is the smoking gun that adds ammunition to the theory
> that
> if your business has wide doorways and grabbars your website should as
> well.

Not only "if your business has..." but "if your business is supposed to
have..."

Covered entities includes not only to a range of private enterprises in
their public face, but almost any employer large enough to justify an
intranet (ie if you have 15 employees or more)

Here's the covered entities bit from the Act:

<http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm>
<http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/pubs/ada.txt>

"The ADA prohibits discrimination and ensures equal opportunity for
persons
with disabilities in employment, State and local government services,
public accommodations, ***commercial facilities***, and transportation.
It also
mandates the establishment of TDD/telephone relay services."
(my emphasis)

Also remember that 'public accommodations' include private entities that
offer goods and services to the public.

> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/cltr204.txt

>      Covered entities under the ADA are required to provide
> effective communication, regardless of whether they generally
> communicate through print media, audio media, or computerized
> media such as the Internet.  Covered entities that use the
> Internet for communications regarding their programs, goods, or
> services must be prepared to offer those communications through
> accessible means as well.

And to support that line of argument from the DOJ's own position:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/briefs/hooks.htm
<=========================

I.	A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS PROVIDING SERVICES SOLELY OVER THE
INTERNET IS SUBJECT TO THE ADA'S PROHIBITION AGAINST
DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF DISABILITY

The district court concluded that because Defendant does not provide its
commercial services to its customers in a physical building, it is not
covered by Title III. Hooks II, slip op. 7. In doing so, the court
relied upon a line of cases suggesting that the "services * * * of any
place of public accommodation," 42 U.S.C. 12182(a), can only be the
services provided on the entity's physical premises and that the
statutory definition of a "public accommodation," 42 U.S.C. 12181(7),
limits the statute to entities that provide such on-site services.(3)
This restrictive interpretation of Title III is inconsistent with the
statutory language and creates an arbitrary and irrational limitation on
coverage that conflicts with the clear and important purposes of the
Act. Moreover, it is an interpretation that has been properly rejected
by a number of courts,(4) including this one. See McNeil v. Time Ins.
Co., 205 F.3d 179 (5th Cir. 2000).

A.	The Language Of The Statute Does Not Limit Title III To
Services Provided At A Company's Physical Facility

Title III prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in the
provision of the "services * * * of any place of public accommodation."
42 U.S.C. 12182(a). In relevant part, the statute defines a "public
accommodation" as a "private entit[y]" that falls within one or more of
twelve categories, including a "place of exhibition or entertainment,"
"other service establishment," or "other place of exercise or
recreation." 42 U.S.C. 12181(7)(C), (F), (L).

This case involves allegations of discrimination in the provision of a
"service," namely computerized bridge tournaments and other
bridge-related services. OKBridge is, under any ordinary understanding
of the terms, a "service establishment," or an entity offering
"entertainment" or "recreation." It offers its services to its customers
via the internet from a place in San Diego, California (R1-46-47).(5)
Its services would, therefore, seem easily to qualify as the
"services * * * of [a] place of public accommodation." 42 U.S.C.
12182(a).

1.	The Services "Of" A Place Of Public Accommodation
Need Not Be Provided "At" The Place Of Public
Accommodation

This Court need not decide whether a web site on the internet can be a
"place" within the meaning of the statute,(6) for OKBridge has a
physical facility in San Diego, California, where it houses its
computers and personnel. The bridge tournaments it runs on its computers
are "services * * * of" that place.

The district court, however, apparently thought that the word "place" in
Section 12182(a) restricts the provision's application to services
provided on the premises of a place of public accommodation. See Hooks
II, slip op. 7. It does not. The Act covers the services "of" a place of
public accommodation, not the services "at" or "in" a place of public
accommodation. If Congress had intended to limit Title III to services
provided at a business's physical premises, it presumably would have
used the words "at" or "in" rather than "of." See Pallozzi v. Allstate
Life Ins. Co., 198 F.3d 28, 33 (1999), as amended on denial of reh'g en
banc, 204 F.3d 392 (2d Cir. 2000).

As this Court has observed, while the ADA surely has limitations in
coverage, "the language of the statute can only reasonably be
interpreted to have * * * practical, common sense boundaries." McNeil,
205 F.3d at 187. The boundary suggested by the district court is neither
practical nor supported by common sense. Most obviously, the district
court's interpretation excludes from coverage the wide, and growing,
range of services provided over the internet -- from shopping to online
banking and brokerage services to university degree courses -- at a time
when such modes of commerce are beginning to replace reliance on
physical business locations. See U.S. Dep't of Commerce, Digital Economy
2000 9-15 (June 2000). It also permits discrimination by more
traditional businesses that provide services in locations other than
their premises. For example, many businesses provide services over the
telephone or through the mail, including travel agencies, banks,
insurance companies, catalog merchants, and pharmacies. Many other
businesses provide services in the homes or offices of their customers,
such as plumbers, pizza delivery and moving companies, cleaning
services, business consulting firms, and auditors from accounting firms.
Under the district court's reading of the statute, all the above firms
would be free to refuse service to individuals with disabilities
whenever the service was offered off-site, even though Congress
specifically included such businesses as examples of covered public
accommodations in the statute. See 42 U.S.C. 12181(7)(B), (E), (F). As
the First Circuit observed, "[i]t would be irrational to conclude that
persons who enter an office to purchase services are protected by the
ADA, but persons who purchase the same services over the telephone or by
mail are not." Carparts Distribution Ctr., Inc. v. Automotive
Wholesaler's Ass'n, 37 F.3d 12, 19 (1994).

Even if the district court's holding were somehow restricted to
companies that provide services solely outside the context of their
physical buildings, this would still leave a significant array of
service providers free to discriminate. For example, those selling car
insurance over the telephone would be free to hang up on blind
customers, Publisher's Clearing House could refuse to sell magazines
through the mail to people with HIV, and colleges could refuse to enroll
the deaf in their correspondence courses. Again, these are businesses
Congress clearly intended to cover. See 42 U.S.C. 12181(7)(E), (F), (J).

Defendant offers no plausible explanation of why Congress would have
wanted to draw such arbitrary boundaries in the scope of an Act intended
to "invoke the sweep of congressional authority * * * in order to
address the major areas of discrimination faced day-to-day by people
with disabilities." 42 U.S.C. 12101(b)(4). The point of the statute is
to require a company that provides a service to the public at large, to
provide that service in a non-discriminatory manner to those with
disabilities as well. See McNeil, 205 F.3d at 188. That is, the statute
protects the individuals with disabilities' "full and equal enjoyment of
the goods [and] services * * * of any place of public accommodation." 42
U.S.C. 12182(a). Being offered access to only those services of a public
accommodation that are offered on-site, when the public at large is
given access to additional services off-site, is hardly "full and equal
enjoyment" of the accommodations' services. And narrowly construing the
statute to exclude major areas of discrimination faced by people with
disabilities in their day-to-day encounters with commercial services
providers -- including services provided in a person's home, over the
telephone, through the mail, or via the internet -- is inconsistent with
Congress's clearly expressed intent.

2.	Definition Of "Public Accommodation" Is Not
Limited To Entities Providing Services At Their
Physical Premises

Thus, Section 12182(a) itself does not exclude the services of a public
accommodation offered outside the business's physical premises. Some
courts have suggested, however, that the definition of a "public
accommodation" does. These courts have concluded that the examples in
the definition are all "actual, physical places where goods or services
are open to the public, and places where the public gets those goods or
services." Weyer v. Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp., 198 F.3d 1104,
1114 (9th Cir. 2000). See also Parker v. Metropolitan Life Ins. Co., 121
F.3d 1006, 1011 (6th Cir. 1997). They suggest, therefore, that Congress
intended to limit Title III to similar businesses and exclude all
others. Weyer, 198 F.3d at 1114 ("[T]his context suggests that some
connection between the good or service complained of and an actual
physical place is required."); Parker, 121 F.3d at 1011.

This argument is unconvincing. As discussed above, there is no
reasonable explanation of why Congress would have intended to draw such
a boundary or why it would have chosen such an indirect way of
expressing its intent to do so. The language of the definition contains
no explicit limitation supporting this interpretation. In fact, the
catchall phrases Congress used, such as "other service establishment,"
are plainly broad enough to encompass establishments that provide
services in their clients' homes, over the telephone, or through the
internet.

An on-site limitation cannot be inferred indirectly from the specific
examples either. Congress included in that list numerous businesses that
traditionally provide services off-site. For example, department stores
receive catalog orders through the mail or over the telephone. They
deliver products from their stores to customers through the mail or by
special delivery of certain items, such as appliances. Plumbing
companies only provide services at a customer's home or office. Many
lawyers provide their most significant services in a courtroom, rather
than in their offices. A senior citizen center will often perform its
services outside the physical center itself. For example, the drive
clients to doctors' appointments, deliver meals, lead field trips, etc.
A travel service ordinarily conducts its business over the telephone and
through the mail. Yet Congress clearly intended to cover the services of
a "sales * * * establishment" like a department store, a "service * * *
establishment" like a plumbing company, the "office of an accountant or
lawyer," a "senior citizen center," and a "travel agency." 42 U.S.C.
12181(7)(E), (F), (K).

Some courts have suggested, however, that "[p]ursuant to the doctrine of
noscitur a sociis, * * * [any ambiguous terms] should be interpreted by
reference to the accompanying words of the statute to avoid the giving
of unintended breadth to the Acts of Congress." Ford v. Schering-Plough
Corp., 145 F.3d 601, 614 (3d Cir. 1998), cert. denied, 525 U.S. 1093
(1999) (citation and quotation marks omitted). See also Weyer, 198 F.3d
at 1114. They reason that because the definition refers to some
businesses that provide on-site services, the definition must be
interpreted to cover only entities that are so limited. Ford, 145 F.3d
at 614; Weyer, 198 F.3d at 1114.

As noted above, terms like "other service establishment" are broad, but
they are not particularly ambiguous with respect to covering businesses
providing off-site services. Moreover, there is no danger that giving
the statutory language a natural reading will give "unintended breadth"
to the Act. The breadth a natural reading entails is clearly intended.
It is true that the statute often focuses on physical access to
buildings, but that is not surprising. One of the major purposes of the
Act was to require the removal of architectural barriers that prevented
many people with disabilities from gaining access to services. See,
e.g., 42 U.S.C. 12182(b)(2)(A)(iv). But the statute just as clearly
recognizes that "individuals with disabilities continually encounter
various forms of discrimination" including not only barriers to physical
access, but also other forms of exclusion and "relegation to lesser
services, programs, activities, benefits, jobs, or other opportunities."
42 U.S.C. 12101(a)(5) (emphasis added); see also H.R. Rep. No. 485, Pt.
2, 101st Cong., 2d Sess. 35-36 (1990) ("lack of physical access to
facilities" was only one of several "the major areas of discrimination
that need to be addressed"); H.R. Rep. No. 485, Pt. 3, 101st Cong., 2d
Sess. 54 (1990) ("It is not sufficient to only make facilities
accessible and usable; this title prohibits, as well, discrimination in
the provision of programs and activities conducted by the public
accommodation.").(7)

For that reason, the definition of "public accommodation" is
intentionally broad. The House Report explains that the list of examples
in the definition of "public accommodations" is not meant to be a
limitation on the more general catchall categories:

A person alleging discrimination does not have to prove that the entity
being charged with discrimination is similar to the examples listed in
the definition. Rather, the person must show that the entity falls
within the overall category. For example, it is not necessary to show
that a jewelry store is like a clothing store. It is sufficient that the
jewelry store sells items to the public.

H.R. Rep. No. 485, Pt. 3, supra, at 54. The Senate Report similarly
states that

within each of these categories, the legislation only lists a few
examples and then, in most cases, adds the phrase "other similar"
entities. The Committee intends that the "other similar" terminology
should be construed liberally consistent with the intent of the
legislation that people with disabilities should have equal access to
the array of establishments that are available to others who do not
currently have disabilities.

S. Rep. No. 116, 101st Cong., 1st Sess. 59 (1989).

As this Court has explained in an analogous context:

[a]lthough we recognize that ejusdem generis is an old and accepted rule
of statutory construction, we do not believe that it compels us to
accord words and phrases embodied in the statute a definition or
interpretation different from their common and ordinary meaning; or that
the rule requires us to interpret the statute in such a narrow fashion
as to defeat what we conceive to be its obvious and dominating general
purpose.

Miller v. Amusement Enters. Inc., 394 F.2d 342, 350 (5th Cir. 1968).(8)
Similarly, in this case, any tension between the list of examples
Congress used and the ordinary meaning of the broad catchall phrases it
included should be resolved in light of Congress's "obvious and
dominating general purpose" and in favor of including public
accommodations that provide services outside of their physical premises.

3.	The Absence Of Specific Mention Of Services
Provided Over The Internet Does Not Restrict The
Statute's Coverage

The absence in the statute of any specific mention of web sites or the
internet is not a reason to exclude services provided by this medium.
When Congress enacted the statute, the World Wide Web had not yet been
invented and commercial traffic on the nascent internet was prohibited.
See Pub. L. No. 101-336, 104 Stat. 327 (ADA passed on July 26, 1990);
PBS, Life on the Internet Timeline (visited June 30, 2000)
<www.pbs.org/internet/ timeline/timeline-txt.html> (first web browser
invented, and first commercial use of the internet permitted, in 1991).
That Congress did not specifically envision the application of Title III
to services provided over the internet does not mean that such services
are excluded from coverage. See, e.g., Pennsylvania Dep't of Corrections
v. Yeskey, 524 U.S. 206, 211 (1998) (ADA applies to prisons, even if
"Congress did not envision that the ADA would be applied to state
prisoners") (citation and internal punctuation omitted); Dean v.
Ashling, 409 F.2d 754, 755 (5th Cir. 1969) (Title II of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964 applies to rental space in a trailer park, even though
"[n]othing in the legislative history suggests that anyone considered
trailer parks").

The language of the statute is broad enough to cover services provided
over this new medium(9) and courts are not reluctant to apply old words
to new technology in a way that is consistent with modern usage and
legislative intent. The Supreme Court has, for example, applied the
First Amendment's protection of free "speech" and "the press" to
electronic communication over the internet. See Reno v. ACLU, 521 U.S.
844 (1997).

In another example, the Fourth Amendment's protection of the "right of
the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,"
U.S. Const. Amend. IV, has been applied to electronic documents and
communications. At one time, the Supreme Court concluded that the
language of this Amendment could not reach searches of new electronic
media, such as telephone communications, for reasons very similar to
those urged by Defendant in this case:

The amendment itself shows that the search is to be of material
things -- the person, the house, his papers, or his effects. The
description of the warrant necessary to make the proceeding lawful is
that it must specify the place to be search and the person or things to
be seized. * * * * * The language of the Amendment cannot be extended
and expanded to include telephone wires, reaching to the whole world
from the defendant's house or office.

Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, 464-465 (1928) (emphasis in
original). However, the Supreme Court later rejected this restrictive
interpretation and applied the Fourth Amendment to searches of
electronic media, acknowledging the need to avoid restrictive
interpretations that leave new technologies outside the protection of
pre-existing law:

To read the Constitution more narrowly is to ignore the vital role that
the public telephone has come to play in private communication. * * * *
[O]nce it is recognized that the Fourth Amendment protects people -- and
not simply "areas" -- against unreasonable searches and seizures it
becomes clear that the reach of that Amendment cannot turn upon the
presence or absence of a physical intrusion into any given enclosure.

Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 352-353 (1967). Just as the Fourth
Amendment's textual focus on physical intrusions does not exclude the
Constitution's application to electronic media, neither does a similar
textual focus in the ADA on services provided at a physical place of
business exclude Title III from application to commercial services
provided over the internet.

B.	This Court Has Already Rejected The View That Title III
Is Limited To Services Performed At A Physical Place

The district court's decision in this case not only ignores the plain
language of the statute and the obvious purposes of Congress, but also
conflicts with this Court's recent decision in McNeil v. Time Insurance
Co., 205 F.3d 179 (5th Cir. 2000). In McNeil, this Court reviewed the
decision of a district court that had concluded, like the district court
in this case, "that Title III of that Act only applied to physical use
of the services of a place of public accommodation." Id. at 182. The
district court had granted summary judgment against a plaintiff who
claimed that a cap on AIDS coverage in his deceased son's insurance
policy violated Title III. The district court held that the defendant's
"provision of insurance did not constitute a 'public accommodation'
under the ADA" because it did not involve physical access," siding with
cases like Weyer, Parker, and Ford. Ibid.

Had this Court agreed with the district court and sided with the
Circuits inferring a "physical place" requirement in Title III, this
Court would have affirmed the dismissal of the plaintiff's claim on the
ground that the insurance policy was not a "service * * * of [a] place
of public accommodation." Instead, this Court interpreted and applied
Title III to the case, concluding that

[t]he "good" in this case is the insurance policy that Time offered to
the members of the Texas Optometric Association. To establish a Title
III violation, Mr. McNeil is required to demonstrate that Time denied
his son access to that good or interfered with his son's enjoyment of it.

Id. at 188. Thus, while this Court ultimately concluded that Title III
does not govern the content of insurance policies (because, as a general
matter, Title III does not "regulate the content of goods and services
that are offered," 205 F.3d at 186)(10) it nonetheless held that Title
III "assures that the disabled have access to all goods and services
offered by the business," even when that business offers goods or
services, like insurance policies, that are provided outside the
company's offices. Id. at 188 (emphasis added).

In this case, this Court should similarly conclude that Title III
requires that businesses like Defendant offer non-discriminatory access
to all their services, whether they be provided in a building or over
the internet.

=========================>

Now, if the Assistant Attorney General thinks that covered entities need
to be accessible, and the DOJ thinks that covered entities need to be
accessible, who are Chris' lawyer friends who think they know better?
And do they stand to profit from defending clients against ADA actions?
If so, I believe the correct term is 'ambulance chasers'.

Here's the post that Chris couldn't find:
http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20020527/113706.html

There is precedent for the designer to be held liable for ADA failures
(the precedent is for physical buildings, but it would be outrageously
inconsistent for it not to apply to designers of other covered
facilities). See "Legal Rights of Persons with Disabilities: An Analysis
of Federal Law" (Tucker & Goldstein, LRP Publications, ISBN: 0934753466)
for the case law.

Besides, if you advise a client that accessibility doesn't matter, and
they get pulled up over it, how long (in hours) before a writ lands on
your desk? Your ambulance chasing lawyers have their professional
indemnity insurance - do you?

So to summarise:
1) ADA applies to the Internet
2) Covered Entities under the ADA absolutely fails to exclude private
enterprises
3) The designer is also liable.

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 13:37:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:37:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Mozilla Display Issues
Message-ID: <000901c20f1b$6f757ee0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Hello All :

Just recovering from a crash and rebuild of the ol' site. I was
updating a few templates, and it seems that Moz 1.0 has issues
displaying certaing fonts at the right size. Here is the CSS :

p {
	font:70% georgia, verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	margin:0px 10px 10px 10px;
	padding:0px;
	color:#333;
	background-color:transparent;
}
pre {
		margin:0px 10px 10px 10px;
		padding:5px;
		font-size:100%;

}

It displays as intended on IE 6.x. Any suggestions as to how I can get
the pre font to size properly in Moz?
The URL is http://members.evolt.org/burhankhalid/phpfaq.php

Thanks,
Burhan

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 13:42:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:42:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <3D01E977.21303.A22702AE@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9281F24.1F80%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake aardvark:

> i have met a bowl of tapioca pudding, and martin, sir, is not a bowl
> of tapioca pudding...  my brain this morning, on the other hand...

<g />

> this is correct, however, looking at caselaw from similar cases in
> countries with similar laws, coupled with public opinion at the time,
> as well as other factors, including how risky you want to be, can
> give you a good idea of where things are headed...

Sure, but don't expect me to grant your statements based on your 'good idea
where things are headed' the same weight as those of a practicing lawyer.

> ianal, and i thank the stars every day, but i do stay on top of legal
> trends in subject areas that impact me, and i've been working with
> accessibility issues for more than 10 years now for everything from
> web sites to concert venues to playgrounds... one thing *i've*
> learned is that you're much better off erring on the side of caution
> when it comes to accessibility...

Fine and well. There's a difference between advising someone to be cautious
and arguing that if somoeone develops a Flash-only site, they put themselves
and their client at risk of a lawsuit.

If the latter is the case, then it seems to me that text-heavy sites must
also risk a lawsuit unless they provide audio and/or pictorial versions of
their site for those suffering from learning disabilities.

>> With programming, you compile the code and run it. If it works, you
>> were correct. With Web design, you view it in the browser and have
>> users test it. If it works, you were right. With U.S. law, you must go
>> to court.
>
> i would disagree here... you don't have to go to court... you can, as
> i say above, watch trends, interpret the laws, and ply the risk...

You're wrong. In the U.S., the constitution expressly charges the courts
with interpreting the law. Any interpretation by anyone else is persuasive
only inasmuch as it is a good prediction of what the courts would decide
were they to hear the case.

Unless you're the IRS, when you're within the jurisdiction of a U.S. court
you can watch, interpret and ply all you like, but the judge's (or jury's)
decision will carry the day. Period.

> absolutely...  and context extends beyond that to things like public
> opinion (did a blind man recently fall down a well that was
> unmarked?) to international law from similar-enough countries (did UK
> banks get successfully sued by blind users, did SOCOG have to settle
> their olympic site fiasco and spend lots of $$?)

None of which is terribly persuasive in a U.S. court.

The federal judiciary is appointed, not elected, in part to insulate them
somewhat from the whims of public opinion. That allows them to make
judgments like /Brown v. Board of Education/ that may well have been
political suicide for an elected official. Public opinion is not, as I
recall, admissible evidence. There is even controversy about the degree to
which legislative notes are to be used in formulating decisions.

As for foreign law, British case law prior to 1776 does indeed offer some
precedent that has subsequently been built upon in the U.S. legal system.
While some is still taught in law schools, it is rarely (if ever) used as
guidance in current court cases, however, as there is sufficient U.S. case
law that would supercede it, and modern British decisions are most certainly
/not/ persuasive in a U.S. court.

> so, no, i'm not really challenging your points, but i do believe
> there is a lot more room for non-legal professionals to track and
> qualify legal issues...

Non-professionals can track and qualify whatever they like, but when
conflicts arise between disparate non-professionals or between
non-professionals and professionals I think it entirely appropriate to ask
for the backgrounds of those involved in order to weigh the relative
persuasiveness of their arguments.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    Don't mistake lack of talent for genius.
    -----------------------------------<< Type O Negative >>

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 13:45:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 13:45:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <016c01c20f0d$a5306940$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com>
Message-ID: <B9281FF9.1F82%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake the head lemur:

> The Harkin Letter is the smoking gun that adds ammunition to the theory that
> if your business has wide doorways and grabbars your website should as well.

The Harkin Letter is not:

1. A regulatory agency ruling
2. Statutory law
3. Common law (court decisions)

It isn't law. It's a bit of advice from an agency within the executive
branch of the government, who are just as bound by decisions of the U.S.
judiciary as you or I (though John Ashcroft and G.W. Bush appear to be
trying to change that).

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    Euphoria is not a business strategy,
    ------------------------------------<< Louis Rossetto >>

From atdtxav at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 14:00:01 2002
From: atdtxav at yahoo.com (AtdtXav)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] javascript: Form validation error?
In-Reply-To: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCECHFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20020608185908.73261.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Jeff :)  I discovered my problem was actually a loose
<script> tag, which caused the actual <script> to burp.

Thanks for the link. ;)  That's what happens when you have to
work with someone else's code.

Scott

--- ".jeff" <jeff at members.evolt.org> wrote:
> scott,
>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > From: AtdtXav
> >
> > What's wrong with this picture?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > <FORM enctype="multipart/form-data"
> >       name="fform"
> >       action="/servlet/UploadProcess"
> >       method="post"
> >       onsubmit="return checkform(this);">
> >
> > // details of form
> >
> > <input
> >  type="image"
> >  name="SubmitUpload"
> >  src="/images/submit.gif"
> >  hspace="0"
> >  vspace="0"
> >  border="0"
> >  onClick='submit();'>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
> remove the onclick event handler from your image submit.  the
> submit()
> method causes the form to be submitted without firing the
> onsubmit event
> handler in the <form> tag.  what's more, the onclick event
> handler is not
> supported by some browsers.
>
> here's an article with more info on the submit() method.
>
> Forms & JavaScript Living Together in Harmony
> http://evolt.org/article/thelist/17/28553/
>
> good luck,
>
> .jeff
>
> http://evolt.org/
> jeff at members.evolt.org
> http://members.evolt.org/jeff/
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From dm at lgcy.com  Sat Jun  8 14:20:01 2002
From: dm at lgcy.com (Daniel Medley)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:20:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Site check/advice
References: <9E616052-7AE6-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000701c20f2a$6ab6c080$b1ca0ed0@havoc>

I've just finished my first site, the purpose of which is for me to learn,
and I'm wondering if someone could check it out at http://www.lobowalk.com/
. I'm aware of issues with NN4.x and I'm willing to deal with them. I'm
interested in IE, NN6, Opera etc on various platforms. Like I said, I'm
green at this and would appreciate any comments or advice concerning
mark-up; both html and css, design/navigation issues, what works, what
doesn't, anything that could help me. I'm open to all advice and helpful
comments.

Thanks in advance,
Daniel Medley

From pjw at bw3.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 14:22:01 2002
From: pjw at bw3.co.uk (Paul J White)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:22:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers
Message-ID: <006601c20f21$a6f35ee0$020a0a0a@chris>

I too have lost the bookmarked URL but am happy to mail the sleight.zip
file, that holds the key to this fuddling, to anyone who wants to have a
look. At 290kb it's not a burden ;-)

Cheers, Paul.

From laureln at qwestinternet.net  Sat Jun  8 14:25:01 2002
From: laureln at qwestinternet.net (Laurel Nevans)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:25:01 2002
Subject: Accessibility & US Laws (Re: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility)
References: <B22C8F16-7B0B-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001701c20f21$72767b20$091d8141@mycomputer>

There is a "little-known" US law that predates the ADA: The
Rehabilitation Act of 1973.  In fact, much of the ADA is based on
the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, but designed to "hvae teeth" in
areas that the Rehab Act did not.  Section 508 WAS originally a
part of the Rehab Act of 1973.  The last round of
reauthorizations of the Rehab Act of '73 kind of pulled out 508
and broadened it.

In short: the ADA suppliments the Rehab Act of 1973, but does not
supplant it.  The Rehab Act of 1973, in short, said that any
entity receiving federal $ had to make its services accessible.
Interpretations of the rehab act, however, usually allowed
"separate but equal" kinds of accommodations, but, it DID require
that disabilities be accommodated.

Historically, blind and VI people have had the strongest lobbying
groups.  Hence, blind/VI access issues have been brought to the
fore front, whilt disabilitiy groups without a strong lobbying
branch have not been accommodated as well.  The internet has
somewhat changed this, as it allows disabilitiy groups to "meet"
and perform advocacy in cyberspace; a lot of the transit and
access issues of such groups have been mitigated by the internet.

My point in all of this is that companies receiving ANY types of
federal $ have been required to be accessible since 1973.
However, before the 90s, there were no provisions for monetary
damages, and enforcement was spotty.  Folks didn't necessarily
point out access issues b/c they did not have the mecahnisms to
do so.  The rise of the internet have given such folks voices,
and these voices have persuaded the Feds to strengthen all
accessibility regs.

In terms of enforcement, the word is not to file an
ADA/disability suit in Texas b/c you'll probably lose.  DOJ is
not doing a great job of enforcing regs, but disability groups
are pressuring them to do so.  Because so much advocacy is
coordinated through the Internet, folks who do business on the
internet are at greater risk of being "found" by an advocacy
group and being "called" on their lack of compliance.  Advocacy
groups will use '73 if it applies and ADA does not.  They will
seek out the types of government $ you receive, and will use this
information to demonstrate you ARE required to comply with
disability law.

If your company receives NO federal $, you are freer to "choose"
to exclude large portions of your potential audience.  If your
company is on the GSA schedule, however, or sells one iota of
anything to the government, you MUST comply w/ Federal
accessibility regs.

IANAL, but I WAS a certified rehabilitation counselor who was
required to intimately know all Federal disability laws since WWI
(the beginning of US disability laws, passed to help soldiers
injured in WWI).  There is an 80+ year history of disability
legislation, and unless you can be sure that none of it applies
to you, you're wise not to ignore it.

CAN flash sites be accessible?  Yes, they can if they are
developed properly.  Do you need to know if they are developed
properly?  I like to CYA and ensure my sites are.  Often times, I
accomplish this by placing a small "text navigation" link in the
same color as my background at the top of every page.  Then I can
use any fancy navigation system I want, while assuring an
accessible navigation system is always available for folks who
use text browsers, keyboard surfing (they'll see the marching
ants around my link), no javascript, no flash, etc.  Then I know
I'm doing my job, even if the client insists they do not have to
adhere to accessibility laws.

One example where this saved me:  I developed a site for a
private preschool who said they did not need to worry about
accessibility, as they offered no scholarships or financial aid.
Well, a few months later, DC Public Schools placed a special ed
student in their preschool.  They NOW needed to follow
accessibility regs, as the $ that were paying that student's
tuition were Federal $, given to DCPS, who was using them to pay
tuition.  The preschool did not see how this one placement
effected them.  I did.  Did anyone compalin about their site?
No.  BUT i ensured that their site DID in fact comply when I
developed it, despite their assurances that I did not need to.
So no re-engineering was needed now that accessibility laws
applied to them.

Another example:  I know a private contractor who sells power
supplies to the FAA.  As a favor, I did a site critique. I turned
off graphics and javascript before checking the site.  I could
not get past the 1st page.  My friend said "who surfs that way"
and ignored my critique.  The FAA accepted the site, until an
engineer using it complained a couple months later.  The site
needed to be completely re-engineered, or thet faced losing the
FAA contract.

Why "reinvent the wheel"?  Why do something twice b/c you cut
corners the 1st time?  Why not anticipate that someone somewhere
in the Federal government might be interested in your product,
and so make sure your site will comply so you DON'T face the
choice of redeveloping or losing a sale?  It takes so little time
to do so, and then you don't have to worry about legal scouring
obscure US laws to figure out if they apply.  I figure the extra
development dollars are far less than the hourly rate you'll need
to pay a lawyer should an issue arise.

Can you make a site full of bells and whistles and still meet US
federal regs for accessibility?  I say yes, but it's a lot easier
if you set out to do so in the beginning than if you try to do it
as an afterthought.  And there are several tools readily
available to help you do so.

Laurel

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 14:27:01 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:27:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers
In-Reply-To: <3D01F66A.9000401@sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPIEILFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

mark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Mark Limburg
>
> I *had* a script bookmarked which allowed the
> confuddling of PNG Alpha Layers in IE.  However, my
> bookmark list did not survive the quite recent time
> when my hard drive tried to eat itself.  A half on
> hour on google has not brought home the bacon .. so
> I turn to the enlightened list :)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

there are two that i'm aware of.  one from aaron boodman (youngpup.net) and
one from webfx.  i've tried both and prefer the one from webfx.

http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html

enjoy,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

From gozz at gozz.com  Sat Jun  8 14:46:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:46:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B927EA52.1F63%chris@setmajer.com>
References: <B927EA52.1F63%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b01b92807c4ad98@[192.168.1.100]>

At 5:07 PM +0200 6/8/02, Chris Kaminski wrote:
>Section 508 or the ADA, [...] can only be understood in the context
>of court decisions (controlling
>precedent, various orders of persuasive precedent), regulatory rulings (an
>entirely separate body of law), the remainder of the U.S. Code and
>appropriate state and local laws.

Wow, you've got the 60,000 foot view! I hadn't realized that part of
the problem going on here is a misunderstanding of the US legal
system ...

... some are frustrated that others are making claims without
pointing to court decisions to back up their claims, and those others
are frustrated that their arguments are not convincing.

It's curious that it's hard to find cases that have even made it into
court regarding to what extent a website is considered a "public
place of accommodation" under the ADA act.
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 14:51:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 14:51:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B9281FF9.1F82%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <0316C776-7B19-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 07:56  pm, Chris Kaminski wrote:

>> The Harkin Letter is the smoking gun that adds ammunition to the
>> theory that
>> if your business has wide doorways and grabbars your website should as
>> well.
>
> The Harkin Letter is not:
>
> 1. A regulatory agency ruling

It's a DOJ statement of policy

From jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu  Sat Jun  8 15:04:01 2002
From: jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu (Jonathon Isaac Swiderski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:04:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Site check/advice
In-Reply-To: <000701c20f2a$6ab6c080$b1ca0ed0@havoc> (dm@lgcy.com)
References: <9E616052-7AE6-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk> <000701c20f2a$6ab6c080$b1ca0ed0@havoc>
Message-ID: <200206082004.QAA21303@occs.cs.oberlin.edu>

NT4, IE5, 31K modem.  Front page screencap @
http://members.evolt.org/jswiders/lobowalk.com.jpg [109KB]

Although the colors aren't quite what I would've chosen, it looks good, although
the darker brown and the red don't always go well together, esp. in the
rollovers at the top and in the sidebars -- see
http://members.evolt.org/jswiders/lobowalk.com2.jpg [123KB] and
http://members.evolt.org/jswiders/lobowalk.com3.jpg [125KB].

Although prevailing wisdom has become to hide and obfuscate email addresses and
hide behind forms for contact, it is a trend I have come to hate the last couple
weeks.  One phase of my current job involved looking up contact information for
webmasters of over 500 sites that were linked to a website that had moved
(biodiversity.uno.edu, now at biocollections.org).  While many had the name of
the person responsible for the page and their email address at the bottom, the
vast majority of the pages (or at least, the vast majority of the time i
spent. . .) forced me to go pawing through staff directories and sourcecode for
contact forms, searching for the email address of what probably turned out to be
the wrong person.  So don't do that.  Include your name (or screenname, or
whatever you like to be addressed as in a business mail) and email on every
page, or at least include a link to a contact page with said information.  The
only place I was able to find your address was in the code for your contact
form.

jswiders
members.evolt.org/jswiders
cs.oberlin.edu/~jswiders

--
Jonathon Isaac Swiderski      jswiders at cs.oberlin.edu

"What we have to learn to do we learn by doing"
    -- Aristotle, Ethica Nicomachea II (c 325 BC)

From xslf at xslf.com  Sat Jun  8 15:05:00 2002
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:05:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
In-Reply-To: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKAEBPCDAA.xslf@xslf.com>

Netscape 7 is like Mozilla and goes by the HTML spec: it displays the alt
text only when an image is not present. If you want tooltips, use the title
attribute (supported by IE and Opera as well)

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
Behalf Of Sharon F. Malone
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:38 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>

Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not displaying <alt>
info?

From xslf at xslf.com  Sat Jun  8 15:10:01 2002
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:10:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] viewing document.write HTML souce code
In-Reply-To: <005b01c20edb$ef5c8580$84ebdccb@max1>
Message-ID: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKEEBPCDAA.xslf@xslf.com>

Is there anyway, if you are using document.write() to view the ACTUAL code
that is written to the
> page? Obviously view source shows you your code, but not what was actually
written out.
>

"Mozilla Source Generator-  Have you ever wanted to see the source of your
page after scripts have executed? Check out the Mozilla Source Generator,
which generates formatted HTML source from the current DOM of the page."
http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/web-developers.html

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 15:13:00 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:13:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <0316C776-7B19-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B9283470.1F9B%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Martin Burns:

> It's a DOJ statement of policy

Right. Not a regulatory agency ruling.

DOJ is enforcement, not regulation. Despite what Mr. Ashcroft might wish (or
be getting away with).

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    Success is merely one achievement that
    covers up a multitude of blunders.
    -------------------------------<< George Bernard Shaw >>

From chrism at puffofsmoke.net  Sat Jun  8 15:24:01 2002
From: chrism at puffofsmoke.net (Chris Marsh)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:24:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [OT] Compaq Armada 1700/7800 CMOS settings
In-Reply-To: <6EC041D6-7AEC-11D6-A284-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001c20f28$f7581a90$0100000a@development.idlenet.com>

Dear all

Apologies for the off-topic post. I have temporarily acquired a Compaq
Armada 1700 and 7800. Before deciding whether to aquire these machines
permanently, I am looking them over. However, I can't seem to get into
the CMOS settings. I have tried all of the Fx keys, the Escape key, the
delete key to no avail. These machines were used in a business
environment, so I thought perhaps access to the CMOS settings have been
disabled, but I have no clue how to re-enable access if this is the
case. I have googled with no result, so any assistance will be
gratefully received.

Regards

Chris Marsh

<tip author="Chris Marsh">
If faced with a text file without the application to open it, data may
be recovered using a hex editor.
</tip>

From gozz at gozz.com  Sat Jun  8 15:37:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:37:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <B927918D.1F2F%chris@setmajer.com>
References: <B927918D.1F2F%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b02b92810bbc76d@[192.168.1.100]>

>If you are referring to the assertion that you cannot distinguish between,
>say, IE 4/Win and IE 5/Mac solely via @import, see previous methods for
>refinements of that technique and other techniques that work.
>
>If you're referring to something else, I'd *very* much like to know more.

My problem is not that I want to always _hide_ styles from particular
browsers I know exist today ... I want to only _show_ styles to
particular browsers I know exist today.

Example: if I'd depended on
http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/ -
I'd have to go back to the drawing board now that IE 5.1 Mac is out
which supports @media.

But thankfully, their userAgents still contain MacPPC and MSIE.

>  > Also to me: something that depends on a browser flaw - not
>>  understanding @import for example is more accurately a "hack" .
>
>I disagree. You're testing for a feature, and when that feature isn't
>available you then assume a certain level of support for other features (or,
>in this case, lack thereof). It's defensive coding. Instead of sorting each
>version and microversion of every browser (OmniWeb, Konqueror, iCab,
>Netscape 4.x, Gecko-based, IE 5 Mac, IE/Win, IE 4.x Mac, etc.) you sort
>based on features. Much more extensible and less maintenance in the long
>run.

OK, this is the thing: The site I can't use @import for uses
DANGEROUS CSS! If it gets into the wrong browser it can render the
site unnavigable.

I feel much better about my coding if it degrades to something usable
in browsers that t6hje site does not intend to fully support - (and
are not listed in a contract as receiving full support).

If using @import works for your situation, by all means use it! It
doesn't in this one situation of mine!

>True enough, but sorting browsers based on CSS support isn't one of them.

No really! I'm not lying! I gotta do it!
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From gozz at gozz.com  Sat Jun  8 15:51:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:51:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B9283470.1F9B%chris@setmajer.com>
References: <B9283470.1F9B%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b03b9281bba5af3@[192.168.1.100]>

At 10:23 PM +0200 6/8/02, Chris Kaminski wrote:
>Thus spake Martin Burns:
>>  It's a DOJ statement of policy
>
>Right. Not a regulatory agency ruling.
>
>DOJ is enforcement, not regulation. Despite what Mr. Ashcroft might wish (or
>be getting away with).

Again, a misunderstanding of the US legal system ... the DOJ enforces
laws (http://www.usdoj.gov/dojorg.htm) and is part of the Executive
branch.

The Judicial branch interprets law (http://www.uscourts.gov/about.html).

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Sat Jun  8 15:52:00 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Sat Jun  8 15:52:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKAEBPCDAA.xslf@xslf.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c20f2d$f2952200$b40ae343@oemcomputer>

> Netscape 7 is like Mozilla and goes by the HTML spec: it displays the alt
> text only when an image is not present. If you want tooltips, use the title
> attribute (supported by IE and Opera as well)

> >Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not
> >displaying <alt> info?

Thanks everyone. I have been using "title" on my newer sites but I have an older site (over 80 pages) that has 1) lots of images and 2) only "alt" descriptions. So, just wanted to check this out before I approach the client with the need for me to add these.

Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 16:02:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B22C8F16-7B0B-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B9284015.1FA4%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Martin Burns:

> And to support that line of argument from the DOJ's own position:
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/briefs/hooks.htm

This is an amicus brief from an agency under the executive branch and so not
controlling precedent, but rather a legal argument no more or less
persuasive than that of any other legal brief submitted to a court for
consideration. The case in question was never decided by the Appellate
Court, but was dismissed on other grounds, so it is not controlling
precedent. See:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2002JanMar/1472.html>

and

<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2002JanMar/1473.html>

For another analysis of the /Hooks/ brief by Michael Mason, an attorney with
the law firm of Hogan & Hartson LLP in Washington, written prior to the
case's eventual dismissal, see:

<http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/15_13/federal/1815-1.html>

Moreover, /hooks/ is limited to businesses providing services solely over
the Internet. From the Statement of the Issues in above referenced brief:

Whether a company that offers services solely on the
    internet is subject to the public accommodations
    provision of Title III of the ADA.

The DOJ's brief is therefore limited in scope, expressly excluding:

1. A physical store that also has an e-commerce Web site (i.e., Barnes &
   Noble)
2. A catalogue retailer that has an e-commerce site (i.e., L.L. Bean)
3. A computer manufacturer that also offers technical support by phone
   (i.e., Apple Computer)

> Here's the post that Chris couldn't find:
> http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20020527/113706.html

Thank you.

Let us first examine /Doe v. Mutual of Omaha/
<http://lw.bna.com/lw/19990615/984112.htm>. In this case, the court
apparently applies the ADA to Web sites (referring to Title III section
302(a) of the ADA; 42 U.S.C. sec. 12182(a).):

The core meaning of this provision, plainly enough,
    is that the owner or operator of a store, hotel,
    restaurant, dentist's office, travel agency, theater,
    **Web site,** or other facility (whether in physical
    space or in electronic space, Carparts Distribution
    Center, Inc. v. Automotive Wholesalers' Ass'n of New
    England, Inc., 37 F.3d 12, 19 (1st Cir. 1994)) that
    is open to the public cannot exclude disabled persons
    from entering the facility and, once in, from using
    the facility in the same way that the nondisabled do.

However, this is not controlling precedent since the question before the
court was /not/ whether Web sites are covered by the ADA, but rather is a
case about an Insurance company that placed a cap on AIDS coverage.

In that same post, you also refer <to http://icdri.org/sjsu.htm>, a letter
from the United States Department of Education, Office for Civil Rights.
This letter is in regard to a complaint against San Jose State University,
an institution which receives federal funds. This letter is not on-point.

Three other links you provide, <http://www.icdri.org/csula.htm>,
<http://www.icdri.org/ocrsurltr.htm> and <http://www.icdri.org/lbeach.htm>,
are likewise in reference to universities which receive federal funds and so
not on point.

Finally, you cite a suit brought against AOL
<http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/winter00humanrights/waddell2.html>. This case
was settled and therefore has no value whatever as precedent.

Moreover, AOL is again offering a service accessible /only/ via the Internet
(or, more accurately in this case, via the computer).

Finally, none of the aforementioned goes on to define 'service,' Sites which
offer promotional material only (such as branding exercises done by Nike or
MTV) may or may not constitute a 'service,' but rather 'content.' From the
/Washington Technology/ article referenced earlier:

Another court has held that the ADA applies outside of
    physical structures, expressly including--without
    definitively deciding the point--Web sites, but does not
    regulate the content of goods or services. For example,
    bookstores aren?t required to stock Braille books and
    movie rental stores aren?t required to stock films with
    closed captioning. If this rule were applied to Web sites,
    enforcing the ADA might depend on whether the Web page at
    issue constitutes a good or service, or provides only a
    means to access a good or service.

With that in mind, a whole range of sites or portions of sites may be
exempt:

1. animation sites
2. art sites
3. gaming sites
4. sites offering movie trailers
5. sites offering online comics

In summary, the degree to which the ADA applies to Web sites is still
unsettled, and Section 508 does not apply to private entities receiving less
than US$10,000 in federal funds.

Moreover, even assuming the courts or congress answer the question of
whether the question of whether the ADA applies to Web sites in the
affirmative (which is very likely), it is far from certain that /all/ sites
will be so covered. Questions still exist such as what constitutes a good or
service and what is the /content/ of the good or service, and whether
alternative means of access--such as by voice phone service or fax--might
relieve the burden of accessibility.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    We are confronted by insurmountable
    opportunities.
    ---------------------------------------<< Pogo Possum >>

From chris at setmajer.com  Sat Jun  8 16:22:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:22:01 2002
Subject: Accessibility & US Laws (Re: [thelist] Flash, usability,
	accessibility)
In-Reply-To: <001701c20f21$72767b20$091d8141@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <B92844C9.1FA9%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Laurel Nevans:

> There is a "little-known" US law that predates the ADA: The
> Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Actually, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973-1992. It was amended.

> If your company receives NO federal $, you are freer to "choose"
> to exclude large portions of your potential audience.  If your
> company is on the GSA schedule, however, or sells one iota of
> anything to the government, you MUST comply w/ Federal
> accessibility regs.

Yes, exactly.

> Can you make a site full of bells and whistles and still meet US
> federal regs for accessibility?  I say yes, but it's a lot easier
> if you set out to do so in the beginning than if you try to do it
> as an afterthought.  And there are several tools readily
> available to help you do so.

Absolutely. I'm a U.S. citizen who's currently working for a German Web
development agency that specializes in accessibility issues. One of our
largest clients is Aktion Mensch, the German advocacy group founded with
funds paid by the companies that marketed thalidimyde in the 1960s. One of
the sites we develop for them is Einfach fuer Alle
<http://www.einfachfueralle.de> a developer education site for Web
accessibility issues.

So I am both familiar the issues involved here, and in complete agreement
that accessible Web sites are not only a Good Thing, but that accessibility
can and should be achieved for a wide range of users (not just the blind)
without sacrificing aesthetics, branding or other business objectives in
most cases.

A very informative post, BTW. Thanks for that.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    He who joyfully marches in rank and file
    has already earned my contempt. He has
    been given a large brain by mistake,
    since for him the spinal cord
    would suffice.
    -----------------------------------<< Albert Einstein >>

From kathy at site-etc.com  Sat Jun  8 16:47:01 2002
From: kathy at site-etc.com (Kathy Long)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] form fields won't wrap in a cell in  PC IE
In-Reply-To: <20020605043149.09834C0CD@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B927C8D4.14316%kathy@site-etc.com>

I am trying to create a table will allow a popup, text field and input image
to appear all on the same row at a higher resolution, but then wrap in a
lower resolution when space does not allow. The problem I'm having is that
in IE5 on a PC (maybe elsewhere, I didn't check), no wrapping takes place.
It seems to insist that unless there is a line break between form elements
they all must be side by side. It works beautifully in Netscape and on my
Mac in both browsers.

Is there a way around this apparent browser idiosyncrasy?

Here's the page in question: http://www.hedgehogbooks.com/indextest.html
It's the Find a Book table.

Thanks,
Kathy
--
SITE-etc
Instant Site Enhancements
831.335.7118
http://www.SITE-etc.com

Enabling and empowering your business. Simply. Affordably.

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 16:49:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Sat Jun  8 16:49:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [OT] Compaq Armada 1700/7800 CMOS settings
In-Reply-To: <000001c20f28$f7581a90$0100000a@development.idlenet.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c20f36$2ca310d0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Hey Chris :

According to official Compaq documentation, you can access the
setup by pressing the F10 key at boot-time.

More information :
ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/supportinformation/techpubs/technical_reference
_guides/005a1098_ch3.pdf
(page 21).

Hth,
Burhan Khalid

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 17:00:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:00:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a05111b03b9281bba5af3@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <F486F5FE-7B2A-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 09:49  pm, Erik Mattheis wrote:

> The Judicial branch interprets law (http://www.uscourts.gov/about.html).

And the legislature makes law.

Erik, help me out here - you dispute that ADA applies to commercial
enterprises in their online environments.

Therefore you dispute one or both of the following statements

1) ADA applies to all environments, including the online one
2) ADA Covered Entities include commercial businesses, both in their
dealings with the public and with their employees

Where is the problem in your opinion?

From genghis at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 17:01:01 2002
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:01:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] [OT] Compaq Armada 1700/7800 CMOS settings
In-Reply-To: <000001c20f28$f7581a90$0100000a@development.idlenet.com>
Message-ID: <ODEOKNPHACELCCHDHABAIEMIEFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Chris Marsh
> Sent: 08 June 2002 21:14
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] [OT] Compaq Armada 1700/7800 CMOS settings
>
> Dear all
>
> Apologies for the off-topic post. I have temporarily acquired a Compaq
> Armada 1700 and 7800. Before deciding whether to aquire these machines
> permanently, I am looking them over. However, I can't seem to get into
> the CMOS settings. I have tried all of the Fx keys, the Escape key, the
> delete key to no avail.

Compaq laptops use F2 or F9, iirc... but if they've
had their hard disks swapped out at any point you're
out of luck, since the CMOS application is held on
a hidden partition.

Still, it's never done me any harm (using a 1750 to
write this, and it's been through several reformats
and a Linux install over the years).

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------

From kathy at site-etc.com  Sat Jun  8 17:17:01 2002
From: kathy at site-etc.com (Kathy Long)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:17:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: form fields won't wrap in a cell in  PC IE
In-Reply-To: <B927C8D4.14316%kathy@site-etc.com>
Message-ID: <B927CFCC.14319%kathy@site-etc.com>

I just answered my own question!

I put a space before the keywords field. Now it expands and contracts
nicely.

Kathy

> From: Kathy Long <kathy at site-etc.com>
> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 14:44:36 -0700
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: form fields won't wrap in a cell in  PC IE
>
> I am trying to create a table will allow a popup, text field and input image
> to appear all on the same row at a higher resolution, but then wrap in a lower
> resolution when space does not allow. The problem I'm having is that in IE5 on
> a PC (maybe elsewhere, I didn't check), no wrapping takes place. It seems to
> insist that unless there is a line break between form elements they all must
> be side by side. It works beautifully in Netscape and on my Mac in both
> browsers.
>
> Is there a way around this apparent browser idiosyncrasy?
>
> Here's the page in question: http://www.hedgehogbooks.com/indextest.html It's
> the Find a Book table.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathy
> --
> SITE-etc
> Instant Site Enhancements
> 831.335.7118
> http://www.SITE-etc.com
>
> Enabling and empowering your business. Simply. Affordably.

From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Jun  8 17:41:00 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Jun  8 17:41:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape... why?
Message-ID: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy>

> The site I can't use @import for uses DANGEROUS CSS!
> If it gets into the wrong browser it can render the site unnavigable.

erik, i'm probably not the only one who'd really like to see some examples
of this so-called dangerous css

> No really! I'm not lying! I gotta do it!

got to or want to?  big diff

few are the web sites where the artistic design (as opposed to functional
design) cannot be simplified while preserving the integrity of the content,
unless you're talking about artistic design itself as the content

rudy

From titsche at gmx.at  Sat Jun  8 18:00:01 2002
From: titsche at gmx.at (Blessed Software Inc.)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:00:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
References: <20020530162634.78832.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001301c20f11$f0b6fce0$0100a8c0@server>

Hi all!
I'm quite new to php and have a basic question. So here it is: My php sites
are all completly php!
So my site doesn't look like : <html> <body> <?php echo "blah";
?></body></html>
it is all like: <?php echo "<html><body> " . $blah . "</body> </html> ?>

i hope this is understandable :)

so my problem is that i want to have a index.php wich looks like : <?php
include("top.php"); include("menu.php"); include("main.php"); ?>

how can i influence the layout of the includet files.... i don't want to use
framesets anymore!!!

Thx a lot for every suggestion and hint!!!

Greez Tj

From xslf at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 18:00:12 2002
From: xslf at yahoo.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:00:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] Site check/advice
In-Reply-To: <000701c20f2a$6ab6c080$b1ca0ed0@havoc>
Message-ID: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKIECFCDAA.xslf@yahoo.com>

Hi there.
Here are a few comments. I am using Mozilla 1.0, windows 98, 800x600 screen
res, Modem connection:

* Fast loading page on my connection- nice :-)
* I have set the default link color in my browser to red. You changed the
background color of the page, but not the link color- leaving me with a hard
to read result (red on brown- even on the lighter parts).
* Main body text (front page): the middle area seems here like a lump of
text, not easy to scan in this time of night. I suspect that making some of
the section titles stand out (bold text maybe?) will make the text easier to
read.
* Trippin'  page: the text to the right of the top picture is actaully
tuching it. It could use some margine there.

Other then that, nice pages :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
Behalf Of Daniel Medley
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:24 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Site check/advice

I've just finished my first site, the purpose of which is for me to learn,
and I'm wondering if someone could check it out at http://www.lobowalk.com/

From xslf at xslf.com  Sat Jun  8 18:02:01 2002
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:02:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Site check/advice
Message-ID: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKEECGCDAA.xslf@xslf.com>

Hi there.
Here are a few comments. I am using Mozilla 1.0, windows 98, 800x600 screen
res, Modem connection:

Other then that, nice pages :-)

I've just finished my first site, the purpose of which is for me to learn,
and I'm wondering if someone could check it out at http://www.lobowalk.com/

From laureln at qwestinternet.net  Sat Jun  8 18:24:00 2002
From: laureln at qwestinternet.net (Laurel Nevans)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:24:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
References: <B9284015.1FA4%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <008601c20f42$9e60d700$59328141@mycomputer>

> In summary, the degree to which the ADA applies to Web sites is
still
> unsettled, and Section 508 does not apply to private entities
receiving less
> than US$10,000 in federal funds.
>
> Moreover, even assuming the courts or congress answer the
question of
> whether the question of whether the ADA applies to Web sites in
the
> affirmative (which is very likely), it is far from certain that
/all/ sites
> will be so covered. Questions still exist such as what
constitutes a good or
> service and what is the /content/ of the good or service, and
whether
> alternative means of access--such as by voice phone service or
fax--might
> relieve the burden of accessibility.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
````

Very interesting point.  As a rehab person, I have taught many a
person to MEET accessibility requirements easily by putting their
alternative format materials on the web.  Contrary to popular
belief, most blind people don't read Braille, especially those
who became blind after they were school-aged.  Brailling
materials becomes unnecessary in current times, as long as you
provide electronic copies that the individual can access using a
screen reader or can emboss to Braille on their own system.
Before the web, many folks were meeting accessibility
requirements by having fax-on-demand or BBS access to documents.
Manufacturers can make large-print copies on instruction manuals
available on their web site, and their printing/mailing costs can
reduce considerably.  If things follow history, alternative means
of access will probably suffice for folks NOT covered by 508.
And I don't think private artists' sites, personal home pages,
and the like will ever be required to meet accessibility regs on
the web.  They might in a "perfect world", but we've got one
that's far from perfect.

Don't get me wrong folks, as a professional, an advocate, and a
person with my own disability now, I'd really LIKE it if
everything in the world was required to be accessible.  But even
CHURCHES are not REQUIRED to be accessible in the US, and many
are not.  PRIVATE CLUBS are exempt from most disability regs
(unless they get some form of federal $), and especially under
the current administration (which is actively trying to repeal
the ADA), I'll bet a lot of web sites and internet communities
will be determined to be "private clubs".  My bet is that if AOL
chose NOT to settle, they may have prevailed as a "private club",
and the NFB would have lost.  Am I happy about that?  Of course
not.  It's just the way things are going with today's political
climate in the US.

Again, IANAL, but I used to be a professional advocate that saw
MANY cases go "the other way".  I am still very active within the
disability advocacy community, and I participate in similar
discussions in disability advocacy forums.  We try to persuade
folks that accessibility equals good business, because we KNOW
the US courts will not always actively back us up.  Just look at
DOJ's pitiful record relating to ADA enforcement in the decade
that it's been in effect.

(And just try TRAVELING with a disability in a post 9/11 world,
DESPITE the passage of the Air Carrier Access Act.  But that's a
whole 'nother discussion<g>.)

Laurel

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sat Jun  8 18:48:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat Jun  8 18:48:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <008601c20f42$9e60d700$59328141@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <1841F1FC-7B3A-11D6-9124-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 12:16  am, Laurel Nevans wrote:

> My bet is that if AOL
> chose NOT to settle, they may have prevailed as a "private club",

Unlikely as they advertise for general subscribers. It's not a private
club if anyone can join on payment of the fee.

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Sat Jun  8 20:07:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Help with ID, please, someone?
Message-ID: <E17Gr9o-0002Ny-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

One of the things I've read, during my recent massive self-re-education
project regarding Web design/XHTML/CSS, is that "ID" must be unique (in
each document). Now, I've interpreted that to mean, practically, that
where I used to use name="#blah" I would now update to:
 name="#blah" id="#blah"

I was thinking that in the DOM, the thing referred to has this unique
label/title/name value, whether I was using the name attribute or the
id attribute to refer to it. So I could keep both attributes, assigning
the same value. Was that correct thinking, or does the rule that "ID
must be unique" actually mean that the value of the attribute ID must
be a unique value in the HTML, for that document?

The reason I ask is I saw that name="foo" id="bar" thing posted
earlier, and wondered why the author did it that way.

Cheers
Carol Stein
techwatcher at accesswriters.com

From evolt at david.us-lot.org  Sat Jun  8 20:20:00 2002
From: evolt at david.us-lot.org (David Dorward)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:20:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
In-Reply-To: <001301c20f11$f0b6fce0$0100a8c0@server>
References: <20020530162634.78832.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com>
	<001301c20f11$f0b6fce0$0100a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <20020609022111.2073c067.evolt@david.us-lot.org>

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:28:43 +0200
"Blessed Software Inc." <titsche at gmx.at> wrote:

> Hi all!  I'm quite new to php and have a basic question. So here it
> is: My php sites are all completly php!  So my site doesn't look
> like : <html> <body> <?php echo "blah"; ?></body></html> it is all
> like: <?php echo "<html><body> " . $blah . "</body> </html> ?>

I would advise against that approach, from what I hear it uses a lot
more in the way of CPU cycles to deal with it.

> i hope this is understandable :)
>
> so my problem is that i want to have a index.php wich looks like :
> <?php include("top.php"); include("menu.php"); include("main.php");
> ?>
>
> how can i influence the layout of the includet files.... i don't
> want to use framesets anymore!!!

With CSS

Tutorial:
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/
Example layouts:  http://www.glish.com/css/
Specification:    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/

--
David Dorward                                   http://david.us-lot.org/
HTML email is a bit like using coloured paper and glitter ink on a CV.

From dbindel at austin.rr.com  Sat Jun  8 20:27:00 2002
From: dbindel at austin.rr.com (David Bindel)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:27:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Form validation function in PHP
Message-ID: <EBEFIBMEOFMBIIJINLGDGEDCCBAA.dbindel@austin.rr.com>

I am trying to write a PHP function that checks to see if a
specified variable has been set and is not empty so I don't
have to write a bunch of code for each variable I want to
check.

I have tried using the isset() and empty() functions to
check whether $myvar exists and is not empty this using the
following code, but apparently, PHP cannot evaluate a string
which is the name of a variable ("$myvar"):

function filled($variable) {
	if (isset(eval($variable)) && !empty(eval($variable))) {
		return true;
	} else {return false;}
}
echo filled("\$myvar");

But it gives me this error:
Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_EVAL, expecting
T_VARIABLE or '$' in .....

Does anyone know how I can make this function work right?

TIA,
David Bindel

From elanglitz at attbi.com  Sat Jun  8 20:54:01 2002
From: elanglitz at attbi.com (Eric Langlitz)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:54:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ASP, mySQL, and lots of coffee...
Message-ID: <20020609013427.XLYX975.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@[192.168.2.5]>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Hi Everyone.  I have a "make me want to pull my hair" out situation.  Here
goes.

I have built a project application using ASP attached to a mySQL datasource
to keep track of jobs internally, and allow clients to request projects,
etc.  In the basic flow of the app, someone logs in, chooses to add a
project, fills in their information, and wham! the project is started.  When
the project fill out form is submitted, the information gets added to the db
and a rich email with the project detail is sent to whom-ever you have
chosen on your email list (dynamically created on the project entry form).

Here is the glitch.  We are keeping track of these jobs by number,
specifically, an auto increase number.  As of right now, that number does
not get sent in the rich e-mail, because the addition to the db is what
creates this number.

The question is, how can I get this number onto the email, or is this even
possible.  I have thought about a round trip to the db, but calling what?,
if I don't know what the number is?  I have also considered a transaction
process, but can I roll back an auto number?  What am I missing here, or
have I done this so backwards, I might as well have fallen off the dumb
truck?

Any help would be great!

- Eric
--

From david_kutcher at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  8 20:55:00 2002
From: david_kutcher at hotmail.com (David Kutcher)
Date: Sat Jun  8 20:55:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
References: <20020530162634.78832.qmail@web12607.mail.yahoo.com><001301c20f11$f0b6fce0$0100a8c0@server> <20020609022111.2073c067.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <LAW2-OE73bNDN4CxpAO000008cf@hotmail.com>

Holy jesus, NO!

> > Hi all!  I'm quite new to php and have a basic question. So here it
> > is: My php sites are all completly php!  So my site doesn't look
> > like : <html> <body> <?php echo "blah"; ?></body></html> it is all
> > like: <?php echo "<html><body> " . $blah . "</body> </html> ?>

Bad, bad, bad!  Use php the way it should be used!

Why would you ever want to put html inside an echo?!?!  So what if your
sites are entirely php, so are mine.  But use it correctly.  I supposed you
really WANT to escape every " " you come across?

> I would advise against that approach, from what I hear it uses a lot
> more in the way of CPU cycles to deal with it.

No, not really.  Regardless of how you form the page, if it's a .php page
it's rendered by the webserver's rendering engine...

It's just bad bad form and sloppy coding to write it the way described
above.

David
www.confluentforms.com

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 21:07:01 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:07:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Form validation function in PHP
In-Reply-To: <EBEFIBMEOFMBIIJINLGDGEDCCBAA.dbindel@austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000001c20f5a$402adf60$6501a8c0@neonreactor>

it's what you're passign the function as an argument...
"\$myvar"...that is a string, not a form input field variable.

Try doing it like this
echo filled($_POST["field_name"]);

or, loop through all the $_POST elements to validate the whole form.

foreach ($_POST as $field)
	{
	if (filled($field) == false)
		{
		// output an error message
		}
	}

hth,
John Corry
Neon Cowboy Design
http://www.neoncowboy.com
mail : john at neoncowboy.com
phone : 808.572.8494

From lists at irubin.com  Sat Jun  8 21:09:01 2002
From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
Message-ID: <000e01c20f5b$b418a5f0$6501a8c0@irubinmain>

Hello,

I am having some trouble with a query and can't figure it out ...

There are three tables:

Tasks
======
ID
CatID
StatusID

Categories
=========
ID
CategoryName

Status
=========
ID
StatusTitle

I would like to select all the records in the tasks table, the result
however should contain the values from the Categories and Status table. I
hope this makes sense.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

--Kevin
lists at irubin.com

From jyee at vt.edu  Sat Jun  8 21:15:01 2002
From: jyee at vt.edu (jyee)
Date: Sat Jun  8 21:15:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Form validation function in PHP
Message-ID: <3D05802B@zathras>

David,

I'm not sure why you're not simply using

if ($myvar)
{
  // variable is filled and nonempty
} else
{
  // variable is not filled
}

since empty() is just another name for conversion to boolean in PHP, but if
you're looking to do form validation, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.
There's a good article for basic principles at

http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/PHP/FormValidatorClass/page1.html

and if you do a search for "PHP form validation download class" at
www.google.com, you'll find many solutions ready to download and use.  Trying
to figure out if a variable is filled is one thing.  Trying to figure out if
you have a valid e-mail address or credit card number is quite another.  Good
luck!

Regards,
Jackson Yee
jyee at vt.edu
http://www.jacksonyee.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bindel" <dbindel at austin.rr.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 21:23
Subject: [thelist] Form validation function in PHP

> I am trying to write a PHP function that checks to see if a
> specified variable has been set and is not empty so I don't
> have to write a bunch of code for each variable I want to
> check.
>
> I have tried using the isset() and empty() functions to
> check whether $myvar exists and is not empty this using the
> following code, but apparently, PHP cannot evaluate a string
> which is the name of a variable ("$myvar"):
>
> function filled($variable) {
> if (isset(eval($variable)) && !empty(eval($variable))) {
> return true;
> } else {return false;}
> }
> echo filled("\$myvar");
>
> But it gives me this error:
> Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_EVAL, expecting
> T_VARIABLE or '$' in .....
>
> Does anyone know how I can make this function work right?

From beau at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 22:08:01 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Sat Jun  8 22:08:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ASP, mySQL, and lots of coffee...
In-Reply-To: <20020609013427.XLYX975.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@[192.168.2.5]>
Message-ID: <000501c20f62$bb62ef30$cd71fea9@Cube>

> Here is the glitch.  We are keeping track of these jobs by number,
> specifically, an auto increase number.  As of right now, that number
does
> not get sent in the rich e-mail, because the addition to the db is
what
> creates this number.

SELECT LAST_INSERT_ID()

should do what you want. The process would go something like this:

1. User submits form.
2. Information is added to the database.
3. The result from SELECT LAST_INSERT_ID() is stored in a variable.
4. You include the INSERT_ID in the email you send to the client.

Cheers,

Beau

From beau at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 22:11:01 2002
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Sat Jun  8 22:11:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
In-Reply-To: <000e01c20f5b$b418a5f0$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <000601c20f63$1e6cc920$cd71fea9@Cube>

> I would like to select all the records in the tasks table, the result
> however should contain the values from the Categories and Status
table. I
> hope this makes sense.

That sounds like a table join to me. Here's an article that should help
you figure them out:

http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/MySQL/Join/page1.html

Cheers,

Beau

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Sat Jun  8 23:35:00 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:35:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
In-Reply-To: <000e01c20f5b$b418a5f0$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <000101c20f6e$e5e7fb40$6501a8c0@neonreactor>

Try this and see what you get

$query = 'SELECT * FROM Tasks, Categories, Status where Tasks.ID =
Categories.ID AND Tasks.ID = Status.ID'

John Corry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 4:16 PM
> To: Thelist
> Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am having some trouble with a query and can't figure it out ...
>
> There are three tables:
>
> Tasks
> ======
> ID
> CatID
> StatusID
>
>
> Categories
> =========
> ID
> CategoryName
>
> Status
> =========
> ID
> StatusTitle
>
> I would like to select all the records in the tasks table,
> the result however should contain the values from the
> Categories and Status table. I hope this makes sense.
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --Kevin
> lists at irubin.com
>
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From axe at suburbia.com.au  Sat Jun  8 23:53:00 2002
From: axe at suburbia.com.au (Chris)
Date: Sat Jun  8 23:53:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers
In-Reply-To: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPIEILFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <DMEJICKICFHPCFLPFDJOGEMGCAAA.axe@suburbia.com.au>

The alpha image loader works incredibly well. Shame it's only for IE/Win32
users though.

But with that aside, has anyone come across a method for using the alpha
image loader on
a .png background image of a table? So that I could have, for example, a
semi-transparent
background image applied to a table, which would allow some of the
background image to show through.

Regards,
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of .jeff
Sent: Sunday, 9 June 2002 04:58
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers

mark,

there are two that i'm aware of.  one from aaron boodman (youngpup.net) and
one from webfx.  i've tried both and prefer the one from webfx.

http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html

enjoy,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 00:11:00 2002
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:11:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 08-JUN-02
Message-ID: <200206090510.g595A2v7012749@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 08-JUN-02

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

evolt.org FAQ: Help Support evolt.org (Author: marlene)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/9741/29298/index.html

Interested in giving back to evolt.org, but don't have time to write
an article or help us run things behind the scenes? Well, here's your
chance. I'll answer your questions about why, how, and what to give,
and include a way to inquire about more information. Give early, give
often. You'll be glad you did!

Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org

From david_kutcher at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  9 00:35:01 2002
From: david_kutcher at hotmail.com (David Kutcher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 00:35:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
References: <000101c20f6e$e5e7fb40$6501a8c0@neonreactor>
Message-ID: <LAW2-OE12LZZInLyqgY0000305c@hotmail.com>

Always lable which columns you want.  Keeps things orderly and increases the
speed of the query.

SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.StatusID, Categories.ID,
Categories.CategoryName, Status.ID, Status.StatusTitle FROM Tasks,
Categories, Status WHERE Tasks.ID = Categories.ID AND Tasks.ID = Status.ID

This is nitpicky, but you might want to consider not mixing caps and
lowercase.  Not a great habit to have.

David
www.confluentforms.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Corry" <webshot at members.evolt.org>
> Try this and see what you get
>
> $query = 'SELECT * FROM Tasks, Categories, Status where Tasks.ID =
> Categories.ID AND Tasks.ID = Status.ID'

> > I would like to select all the records in the tasks table,
> > the result however should contain the values from the
> > Categories and Status table. I hope this makes sense.

From lists at irubin.com  Sun Jun  9 01:18:01 2002
From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 01:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
References: <000101c20f6e$e5e7fb40$6501a8c0@neonreactor> <LAW2-OE12LZZInLyqgY0000305c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501c20f7e$8d833f40$6501a8c0@irubinmain>

> Always lable which columns you want.  Keeps things orderly and increases
the
> speed of the query.
>
> SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.StatusID, Categories.ID,
> Categories.CategoryName, Status.ID, Status.StatusTitle FROM Tasks,
> Categories, Status WHERE Tasks.ID = Categories.ID AND Tasks.ID = Status.ID
>
> This is nitpicky, but you might want to consider not mixing caps and
> lowercase.  Not a great habit to have.
>
> David
> www.confluentforms.com

Thanks for the reply, however I can't get it just right.

The query (modified a bit to reflect real column names) returns only two
rows out of an expected 5. Any thoughts?

SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.ID, taskcategory.ID,
taskcategory.Task, taskstatus.ID, taskstatus.TStatus FROM Tasks,
taskcategory, taskstatus WHERE Tasks.ID = taskcategory.ID AND Tasks.ID =
taskstatus.ID

Thanks again.

--Kevin
lists at irubin.com

From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Jun  9 01:31:01 2002
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Jun  9 01:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
Message-ID: <01c20f7e$a5ca7500$f4501dd1@rudy>

> The query (modified a bit to reflect real column names) returns
> only two rows out of an expected 5. Any thoughts?

try matching on the other ids

SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.ID
           , taskcategory.ID, taskcategory.Task
           , taskstatus.ID, taskstatus.TStatus
    FROM Tasks, taskcategory, taskstatus
      WHERE Tasks.CatID = taskcategory.ID
            AND Tasks.StatusID = taskstatus.ID

rudy

From lists at irubin.com  Sun Jun  9 02:03:01 2002
From: lists at irubin.com (Kevin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 02:03:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
References: <01c20f7e$a5ca7500$f4501dd1@rudy>
Message-ID: <003b01c20f84$c2a554f0$6501a8c0@irubinmain>

> > The query (modified a bit to reflect real column names) returns
> > only two rows out of an expected 5. Any thoughts?
>
> try matching on the other ids
>
>    SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.ID
>            , taskcategory.ID, taskcategory.Task
>            , taskstatus.ID, taskstatus.TStatus
>     FROM Tasks, taskcategory, taskstatus
>       WHERE Tasks.CatID = taskcategory.ID
>             AND Tasks.StatusID = taskstatus.ID
>
> rudy
>

Only 1 record is returned with the appropriate fields (out of expected 5) -
any other thoughts?

Thanks

--Kevin
lists at irubin.com

From evolt at accessibleinter.net  Sun Jun  9 02:29:01 2002
From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason)
Date: Sun Jun  9 02:29:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Help with ID, please, someone?
In-Reply-To: <E17Gr9o-0002Ny-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020609002130.009f0da0@accessibleinter.net>

At 06:06 PM 06/08/2002, you wrote:
>I was thinking that in the DOM, the thing referred to has this unique
>label/title/name value, whether I was using the name attribute or the
>id attribute to refer to it. So I could keep both attributes, assigning
>the same value. Was that correct thinking, or does the rule that "ID
>must be unique" actually mean that the value of the attribute ID must
>be a unique value in the HTML, for that document?

Names and IDs can share a value.  There shouldn't be two ID attributes of
the same value in the document.

>The reason I ask is I saw that name="foo" id="bar" thing posted
>earlier, and wondered why the author did it that way.

I missed that example, but I've had reason (not that I can remember why
now) to have different names and IDs on an item now and then.

Bill Mason
Accessible Internet
evolt at accessibleinter.net
http://www.accessibleinter.net/

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 03:24:00 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sun Jun  9 03:24:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
In-Reply-To: <20020609022111.2073c067.evolt@david.us-lot.org>
Message-ID: <378E28EC-7B82-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:21  am, David Dorward wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:28:43 +0200
> "Blessed Software Inc." <titsche at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Hi all!  I'm quite new to php and have a basic question. So here it
>> is: My php sites are all completly php!  So my site doesn't look
>> like : <html> <body> <?php echo "blah"; ?></body></html> it is all
>> like: <?php echo "<html><body> " . $blah . "</body> </html> ?>
>
> I would advise against that approach, from what I hear it uses a lot
> more in the way of CPU cycles to deal with it.

Can't speak for php, but with normal SSIs ( type), the
overhead is minimal, and you'd have to be on a massively loaded box for
it to be noticeable.

Serving multiple frames doesn't come for free either btw

From sub at shanx.com  Sun Jun  9 03:32:00 2002
From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi)
Date: Sun Jun  9 03:32:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
In-Reply-To: <003b01c20f84$c2a554f0$6501a8c0@irubinmain>
Message-ID: <001101c20f8f$eaf6fbb0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK>

Kevin, I missed this thread. Please repeat your question?

Shashank

| -----Original Message-----
    | From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
    | [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
    | Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 4:10 PM
    | To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
    | Subject: Re: [thelist] MySQL query help
    |
    |
    |
    |
    | > > The query (modified a bit to reflect real column
    | names) returns only
    | > > two rows out of an expected 5. Any thoughts?
    | >
    | > try matching on the other ids
    | >
    | >    SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.ID
    | >            , taskcategory.ID, taskcategory.Task
    | >            , taskstatus.ID, taskstatus.TStatus
    | >     FROM Tasks, taskcategory, taskstatus
    | >       WHERE Tasks.CatID = taskcategory.ID
    | >             AND Tasks.StatusID = taskstatus.ID
    | >
    | > rudy
    | >
    |
    | Only 1 record is returned with the appropriate fields
    | (out of expected 5) - any other thoughts?
    |
    | Thanks
    |
    | --Kevin
    | lists at irubin.com
    |
    | --
    | For unsubscribe and other options, including
    | the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 03:53:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 03:53:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <F486F5FE-7B2A-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
References: <F486F5FE-7B2A-11D6-9756-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a05111b05b928a5b08fd8@[192.168.1.100]>

At 10:59 PM +0100 6/8/02, Martin Burns wrote:
>On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 09:49  pm, Erik Mattheis wrote:
>
>Erik, help me out here - you dispute that ADA applies to commercial
>enterprises in their online environments.
>
>Therefore you dispute one or both of the following statements
>
>1) ADA applies to all environments, including the online one
>2) ADA Covered Entities include commercial businesses, both in their
>dealings with the public and with their employees

The #1 and #2 are overly simplified: the ADA speaks both to
employment and accessibility of "public accommodations" ... in
respect to employment: "Yes" to both 1 and 2 ... including a
business' Intr_A_net (if the "environment" or "Entity" is covered by
the ADA .. ie, has more than 15 employees).

In respect to whether the ADA includes the Internet as a "public
accommodation": the web did not exist when the ADA was written and no
court has determined whether it is or isn't  covered. And my opinion
is that it isn't ... for this reason:

Courts have defined places of "public accommodations" as _physical_
places - ie, newspapers, television and radio stations are _not_
"public accommodations" as far as the ADA is concerned.

The Internet is more similar to a newspaper or television/radio
station than a restaurant, office building, or bookstore. My guess is
that if/when a test case arises, the Internet in general will be
exempt. Maybe, _maybe_ an on-line store would be considered a place
of "public accommodation" ... but I think it's a reasonable risk to
guess that _your_ on-line store will not be the test case.

Here is some testimony in synch with my opinion:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary/dorm0209.htm

>Where is the problem in your opinion?

In general, that all of the links supplied by people who think the
ADA covers web sites are not definitive, but are only opinions which
a court may take into consideration when and if the question is
before them. And non-generally, that some people are engaging in
fear-mongering involving "what if" situations.
--

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From sub at shanx.com  Sun Jun  9 04:10:01 2002
From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi)
Date: Sun Jun  9 04:10:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
In-Reply-To: <001101c20f8f$eaf6fbb0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK>
Message-ID: <001401c20f95$30fd8520$0200a8c0@SHASHANK>

Kevin,

Below is what I have. All raw output from MySQL dos prompt, I believe
the table structure etc is similar to yours and the SQL I have at the
end (similar to rudy's btw) is working.

******************** START ************************

mysql> show tables

mysql> desc tasks;
+----------+---------+------+-----+---------+-------+
| Field    | Type    | Null | Key | Default | Extra |
+----------+---------+------+-----+---------+-------+
| id       | int(11) |      |     | 0       |       |
| catid    | int(11) |      |     | 0       |       |
| statusid | int(11) |      |     | 0       |       |
+----------+---------+------+-----+---------+-------+
3 rows in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select * from categories;
+----+--------------+
| id | categoryname |
+----+--------------+
|  1 | Category 1   |
|  2 | Category 2   |
+----+--------------+
2 rows in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select * from status;
+----+--------------+
| id | sectiontitle |
+----+--------------+
|  1 | Deleted      |
|  2 | Ready        |
|  3 | Cancelled    |
+----+--------------+
3 rows in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select * from tasks;
+----+-------+----------+
| id | catid | statusid |
+----+-------+----------+
|  1 |     1 |        2 |
|  2 |     1 |        2 |
|  3 |     1 |        1 |
|  4 |     2 |        3 |
|  5 |     2 |        1 |
+----+-------+----------+
5 rows in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select
    ->     tasks.id
    ->     ,categories.categoryname
    ->     ,status.sectiontitle
    -> from
    ->     tasks, categories, status
    -> where
    ->     tasks.catid = categories.id
    ->  and tasks.statusid = status.id
    -> order by
    ->     tasks.id
    -> ;

******************** START ************************

Hope this is what you were looking for. Holler over if it isn't and will
look into it.

Cheers,
Shashank

From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Sun Jun  9 04:48:01 2002
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Sun Jun  9 04:48:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
References: <001401c20f95$30fd8520$0200a8c0@SHASHANK>
Message-ID: <00ec01c20fa3$6a6b0680$0101c80a@hershel>

I have a new client who has between 500 and 1000 articles in MS Word format.
He wants to put them on a website.

1 Is there a utility to convert these into a usable HTML format
automatically?  Even if I were to hire a data entry person to convert by
hand via MS Word's Save As Web Page feature, I am then only going to want
the BODY of the thing because I want to build the CSS myself.  Hmmm--I also
don't know if the articles are full of formatting or not which I may have to
remove.  I do know someone who runs a fairly large site with a
constantly-growing database of articles, and he puts new articles on the
site via a secretary who cuts and pastes from MS Word into a private, online
data-entry web page--this is an option but seems somewhat low tech.  Any
ideas are appreciated.

2 Is there a pre-fab CMS which would be appropriate for such a site?  He
does have the articles broken down into categories and subcategories, so I
suppose it's actually only a matter of a small database, but I don't know if
he plans to update the articles or to add a lot.  The client is brand-new to
the internet and doesn't know quite what he wants for this site just yet.

Thanks,
Hershel

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 05:21:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sun Jun  9 05:21:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c20fa3$6a6b0680$0101c80a@hershel>
Message-ID: <6C6F980C-7B92-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 11:50  am, Hershel Robinson wrote:

> I have a new client who has between 500 and 1000 articles in MS Word
> format.
> He wants to put them on a website.
>
> 1 Is there a utility to convert these into a usable HTML format
> automatically?

http://www.wvware.com/

>  Even if I were to hire a data entry person to convert by
> hand via MS Word's Save As Web Page feature,

If they're Word2k then expect a *lot* of work removing all the bloat
from Save As Web Page.

> I am then only going to want
> the BODY of the thing because I want to build the CSS myself.

Once you have clean HTML, it's not too bad. Strip them down to the
<body> and stuff that content into a template which you only have to
write once.

With something like
http://www.zope.org/Members/sf/HTMLDocument
you should be able to upload bare HTML docs which pick up your template
automagically.

> I do know someone who runs a fairly large site with a
> constantly-growing database of articles, and he puts new articles on the
> site via a secretary who cuts and pastes from MS Word into a private,
> online
> data-entry web page--this is an option but seems somewhat low tech.  Any
> ideas are appreciated.

Why do the documents need to be in Word at all? I've seen a few people
with browser based visual editors in their CMS so possibly the person
producing the articles could write them straight into the CMS without
knowing any HTML.

Here's a Zope one:
http://www.zope.org/Members/arvid/IEDocument

Structured Text is also useful for simple formatting without coding:
http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Articles/STX
http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/StructuredDocument

> 2 Is there a pre-fab CMS which would be appropriate for such a site?  He
> does have the articles broken down into categories and subcategories,
> so I
> suppose it's actually only a matter of a small database, but I don't
> know if
> he plans to update the articles or to add a lot.

That's an important question, and the answer may determine whether he
needs a full CMS at all...

> The client is brand-new to
> the internet and doesn't know quite what he wants for this site just
> yet.

Clients with Internet experience are often the same. Only they often
don't  realise it.

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sun Jun  9 06:34:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 06:34:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com>

Sharon F. Malone wrote:
> Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not displaying <alt> info?

What problem?

Netscape 7 (well, Mozilla) displays ALT when it's needed - images not
loading, or being switched off.

ALT is a *replacement* for images.  That it was ever displayed in a
tooltip by IE is more a Bad Thing[0] than behaviour that should be emulated.

[0] Because it's convinced so many "designers" that ALT should be used
    in place of TITLE

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From dovalle at smlink.com  Sun Jun  9 07:11:00 2002
From: dovalle at smlink.com (Dovalle Yankelovich)
Date: Sun Jun  9 07:11:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Converting perl script to executable file
Message-ID: <54640173AF52D411B1A400508BC2992B6F4DDC@SMMAIL>

--
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Hey,
Can I convert perl script into executable? how should I do it

Thanks

Dovalle

--
[ dovall1.gif was deleted, please don't send attachments with your message. ]

From NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com  Sun Jun  9 07:11:16 2002
From: NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com (NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com)
Date: Sun Jun  9 07:11:16 2002
Subject: [thelist] MySQL query help
Message-ID: <183.9788ede.2a349fc4@aol.com>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
>From your raw output email, it looks like everything should be in lowercase,
I always have trouble with queries when I accidentally use the wrong case.
Nan

In a message dated 6/9/2002 2:18:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lists at irubin.com writes:
> The query (modified a bit to reflect real column names) returns only two
> rows out of an expected 5. Any thoughts?
>
> SELECT Tasks.ID, Tasks.CatID, Tasks.ID, taskcategory.ID,
> taskcategory.Task, taskstatus.ID, taskstatus.TStatus FROM Tasks,
> taskcategory, taskstatus WHERE Tasks.ID = taskcategory.ID AND Tasks.ID =
> taskstatus.ID
>
> Thanks again.

Nan Harbison Smith
481 Elm Street
Concord, MA 01742
978-369-1224
978-369-1681

Deja Moo -- the feeling that you've heard this bull before

From nassarsa at redconcepts.net  Sun Jun  9 08:04:01 2002
From: nassarsa at redconcepts.net (Samir M. Nassar)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:04:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
In-Reply-To: <6C6F980C-7B92-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
References: <6C6F980C-7B92-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1023628950.1641.2.camel@yafa>

<cite>
> Why do the documents need to be in Word at all? I've seen a few people
> with browser based visual editors in their CMS so possibly the person
> producing the articles could write them straight into the CMS without
> knowing any HTML.
</cite>

Hold it!

You can write stuff without using Word? Don't you *need* Word to write
anything?

</tongue in cheek>

Samir M. Nassar

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Sun Jun  9 08:20:01 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:20:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer> <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer>

On Sunday, June 09, 2002 4:34 AM Mark Gallagher wrote:

>> Sharon F. Malone wrote:
> > Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed its problem of not displaying <alt> info?

[snippet]
> ALT is a *replacement* for images.  That it was ever displayed in a
> tooltip by IE is more a Bad Thing[0] than behaviour that should be emulated.
>
>
> [0] Because it's convinced so many "designers" that ALT should be used
>     in place of TITLE

Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention "designers." I went through months of Web Design school where I was taught to use ALT and not TITLE ... and I was taught using the NN4.x browser where ALT is also displayed as a "tool tip." My teachers then have misled a lot of students along the way if this is the case.

According to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, Guideline 1 "Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content" only mentions: <quote>1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via "alt", "longdesc", or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1]
For example, in HTML:
Use "alt" for the IMG, INPUT, and APPLET elements, or provide a text equivalent in the content of the OBJECT and APPLET elements.
For complex content (e.g., a chart) where the "alt" text does not provide a complete text equivalent, provide an additional description using, for example, "longdesc" with IMG or FRAME, a link inside an OBJECT element, or a description link.
For image maps, either use the "alt" attribute with AREA, or use the MAP element with A elements (and other text) as content. </quote>
http://www.w3c.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-provide-equivalents

Nowhere do I see TITLE mentioned.

I'm sure there are a lot of "designers" who are and have been designers for some time who were doing what I was (emphasis: was) doing. I have included TITLE in my more recent sites.

Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From chris at setmajer.com  Sun Jun  9 08:31:01 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:31:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
In-Reply-To: <1023628950.1641.2.camel@yafa>
Message-ID: <B92927D0.202C%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Samir M. Nassar:

> You can write stuff without using Word? Don't you *need* Word to write
> anything?

Of course not. That's just one of the lies perpetuated by those open source
terrorist loonies.

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    We prefer the discipline of knowledge to
    the anarchy of ignorance.
    --------------------------------------<< David Ogilvy >>

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sun Jun  9 08:42:01 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:42:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer> <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com> <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3D035B46.90607@cyberfuddle.com>

Sharon F. Malone wrote:
 > On Sunday, June 09, 2002 4:34 AM Mark Gallagher wrote:
 >
 >>> Sharon F. Malone wrote: Does anyone know if Netscape 7 has fixed
 >>> its problem of not displaying <alt> info?
 >
 > [snippet]
 >
 >> ALT is a *replacement* for images.  That it was ever displayed in a
 >>  tooltip by IE is more a Bad Thing[0] than behaviour that should be
 >> emulated.
 >>
 >> [0] Because it's convinced so many "designers" that ALT should be
 >> used in place of TITLE
 >
 > Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention "designers." I

Hmm, that's two people in three days who thought I was attacking
them.  Maybe that's trying to tell me something... naaaah.

No, I wasn't having a go at you.  If I was in the mood for being nasty
there's juicier targets out there - people who should know what they're
doing, wilfully avoid ever finding out, and still get paid hundreds of
thousands of (US) dollars for lying to clients and giving them half-rate
websites.  But I'm not in the mood for being nasty, so I'm not sure how
that sentence slipped out :-).

I was (and am) annoyed at the astonishing ignorance many people - even
professional designers - about the use and purpose of ALT text.
Designers and developers should stay current with the technology their
users and clients are using.  Misuse of ALT text was a stupid, broken
concept when it began - it's a *really* bad idea now, with TITLE in
existance, accessibility laws being thrust into the limelight, and the
(albeit *extremely slow*) increase in the popularity of Gecko and Opera
(neither of which, IIRC, behave the way IE does).

> went through months of Web Design school where I was taught to use
 > ALT and not TITLE ... and I was taught using the NN4.x browser where

ALT is an *alternative* for images (that's why it's called "alt text" -
alt is short for "alternate"), it's not there to add complementary
information.  One could (I won't) make a case that browsers that display
ALT text as a complement for images are broken (but then, such browsers
are often broken in various other ways).

TITLE is for complementary information - and it works (in theory) for
*every element*, too.

> ALT is also displayed as a "tool tip." My teachers then have misled a
 > lot of students along the way if this is the case.

They sure have!

> According to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, Guideline 1

> Nowhere do I see TITLE mentioned.

TITLE isn't required.  ALT is necessary for those that don't want or
can't have images rendered in their browsing environments - those with
slow connections, command-line-only computer access (restricting them to
things like Links, Lynx, and w3m), a penchant for surfing without fancy
images, or those who're blind and use screen readers (which, for obvious
reasons, aren't likely to support images any time soon).  ALT is important.

TITLE is for what ALT has been misused for for so many years.

> I'm sure there are a lot of "designers" who are and have been
 > designers for some time who were doing what I was (emphasis: was)

No doubt.

> doing. I have included TITLE in my more recent sites.

Congratulations!

--
Mark Gallagher

From chris at setmajer.com  Sun Jun  9 08:42:12 2002
From: chris at setmajer.com (Chris Kaminski)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:42:12 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B9292A79.2031%chris@setmajer.com>

Thus spake Sharon F. Malone:

> Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention "designers."

I sense someone needs some coffee. ;-)

> I went through months of Web Design school where I was taught to use ALT and
> not TITLE ... and I was taught using the NN4.x browser where ALT is also
> displayed as a "tool tip."

I've been through years of building Web sites professionally, and ALT has
always been, well, ALTernative text to be used in place of the images if
image loading is turned off, the UA cannot display images, etc.

That IE and NN decided to also use it as tooltip text is irrelevant.

> My teachers then have misled a lot of students along the way if this is the
> case.

They sure have. There have been recent threads on Webdesign-L, Outside the
Loop and CSS-Discuss on Web design training, and the general consensus was
that most classes were teaching 199x-browsers-are-all-broken,
<table>'n'<font> methodology, not the W3C standards. A few courses taught a
bit of both, as in "here's what works in IE 4+ and NN4+ Mac/Win and can be
done quickly and easily with the WYSIWYG, and here's how it's /supposed/ to
be done."

The upshot is that, per usual, what you learn in class isn't always the
whole story. Take American History in U.S. high schools, for example....

> According to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, Guideline 1 "Provide
> equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content" only mentions:

> Nowhere do I see TITLE mentioned.

Of course not. Title is used for an image/link/etc. that *is* present. Alt
is a replacement. Different things.

> I'm sure there are a lot of "designers" who are and have been designers for
> some time who were doing what I was (emphasis: was) doing.

Prolly a lot more are just leaving both attributes off altogether. Doesn't
make it correct.

> I have included  TITLE in my more recent sites.

Cool. Problem solved, no?

chris.kaminski == ( design | code | analysis )

------------------------------------------------------------
    It is nothing short of a miracle that
    modern methods of instruction have not
    yet entirely strangled the holy
    curiousity of inquiry.
    -----------------------------------<< Albert Einstein >>

From axe at suburbia.com.au  Sun Jun  9 08:46:01 2002
From: axe at suburbia.com.au (Chris)
Date: Sun Jun  9 08:46:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Converting perl script to executable file
In-Reply-To: <54640173AF52D411B1A400508BC2992B6F4DDC@SMMAIL>
Message-ID: <DMEJICKICFHPCFLPFDJOGEMKCAAA.axe@suburbia.com.au>

You can easily run a perl script from the command line just chmod it to be
executable (ie: chmod a+x script.pl

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Dovalle Yankelovich
Sent: Sunday, 9 June 2002 22:40
To: Thelist (E-mail)
Subject: [thelist] Converting perl script to executable file

--
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Hey,
Can I convert perl script into executable? how should I do it

Thanks

Dovalle

--
[ dovall1.gif was deleted, please don't send attachments with your
message. ]
--
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 10:10:01 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:10:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
In-Reply-To: <B9292A79.2031%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <E42DFA5C-7BBA-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:53  pm, Chris Kaminski wrote:

> They sure have. There have been recent threads on Webdesign-L, Outside
> the
> Loop and CSS-Discuss on Web design training, and the general consensus
> was
> that most classes were teaching 199x-browsers-are-all-broken,
> <table>'n'<font> methodology, not the W3C standards. A few courses
> taught a
> bit of both, as in "here's what works in IE 4+ and NN4+ Mac/Win and can
> be
> done quickly and easily with the WYSIWYG, and here's how it's
> /supposed/ to
> be done."

Most HTML books the same, and HTML examples in many books for web
scripting languages.

I've seen waaaay too many coding examples with unclosed <P> [sic] tags,
unquoted attributes etc.

From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 10:10:11 2002
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:10:11 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
In-Reply-To: <B92927D0.202C%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <4AE3D852-7BBA-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>

On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:42  pm, Chris Kaminski wrote:

>> You can write stuff without using Word? Don't you *need* Word to write
>> anything?
>
> Of course not. That's just one of the lies perpetuated by those open
> source
> terrorist loonies.

I understand that PowerPoint is also a suitable alternative

Cheers
Martin
(Who's had clients who've emailed round 100k+ PP presentations (they all
had the project logo on) for weekly status reports when a simple 1 page
text doc would have done - no wonder my work mailbox is 500MB over quota)
_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID:	0xA835CCCB
	martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail:	30 Shandon Place
   tel:	+44 (0)774 063 9985				Edinburgh,
   url:	http://www.easyweb.co.uk			Scotland

From headlemur at clearskymail.com  Sun Jun  9 10:16:01 2002
From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:16:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] DOC to HTML and a CMS
References: <4AE3D852-7BBA-11D6-AA84-000502172AD3@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <009701c20fc8$7e1b7640$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com>

> (Who's had clients who've emailed round 100k+ PP presentations (they all
> had the project logo on) for weekly status reports when a simple 1 page
> text doc would have done - no wonder my work mailbox is 500MB over quota)

97 Megs on a zip disk

turned into 4 pages w/images 101k

the head lemur
News: http://www.lemurzone.com/news/
Interviews: http://www.lemurzone.com/pixelview/
Standards: http://webstandards.org
Community: http://www.evolt.org

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Sun Jun  9 10:36:01 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Sun Jun  9 10:36:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Perl/PHP/mySQL required to download software?
References: <000c01c20daf$02ff7850$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <01e801c20fca$fc021300$b10ae343@oemcomputer>

Again, thanks so much for all your detailed replies/solutions to this situation. I have sent your messages (well, all except for the info about pounds sterling vs. USD, etc. (<8 ) to the client and asked him how he wants to handle it.

He is a programmer but no experience in HTML, MySQL, PHP, Perl, anything web-related and he wants to take over the site and maintain it after I'm finished getting it in shape.(<8 (<8

Best,
Sharon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Burhan Khalid" <burhankhalid at members.evolt.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: [thelist] Perl/PHP/mySQL required to download software?

> I have designed and built a web site for a client who wants to sell
> software online. A Buyer purchases the software, a third party will then
> process the credit card information, send a confirming email to Buyer
> and to my client. Once my client receives the payment confirmation he
> will then generate a customized registration number based on the Buyer's
> registration name so the number will be completely personalized. Client
> also will generate a personalized copy of the program using the
> registration number and also use the registration number as a password
> to allow the customer to download their personalized copy of the program
> from Client's web site.
>
> I have the download set up now as a form showing an email address and
> buyer's User ID # text area boxes. My problem is determining what
> backend stuff needs to be set up to hold this information and call the
> appropriate registration number (User ID #) program for each buyer to
> download.
>
> Depending on how your client has their setup. It might be as simple as a
> csv file which contains the pertinent information.
> An example :
>
> buyerEmail | buyerUID | FileLocation
>
> You could then read this information and generate have the browser
> download the appropriate file to the user. This is assuming that for
> each buyer there is a different file name (which is what I understood
> from "client will also generate a personalized copy..."). After you
> determine that the file has been downloaded properly, you can delete the
> appropriate entry from the csv file.
>
> Another approach would be using a database, with the following structure
> :
>
> Buyer Information UIDList DLList
> ----------------- ------- ------
> Email (PID) UID UID
> Name  (optional) ExpDate PrgName
> UID
> PrgLocation
>
> With this structure, you can setup a few SQL statements that will query
> the tables for the appropriate information. An additional benefit of the
> database setup (there are so many) is that you can generate reports
> (based on each customer), and can delete transactions that have already
> taken place (so someone can't keep downloading copies, etc.)
>
> I have a form coded that calls something from the cgi-bin but I don't
> know what that something consists of. I was looking at some other sites
> to see how folks did this and that's where I got the code. I see the
> code but I don't understand it. Example I found: <form method="get"
> action="http://www.xxxxx.com/cgi-bin/hscdl">. What does hscdl mean?
>
> Don't know about this one -- could mean anything.
>
> Hth,
> Burhan
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From techwatcher at accesswriters.com  Sun Jun  9 11:13:01 2002
From: techwatcher at accesswriters.com (Techwatcher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 11:13:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
Message-ID: <E17H5Hz-0005Fc-00@server16.pronicsolutions.com>

> From: "Blessed Software Inc." <titsche at gmx.at>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:28:43 +0200
> Subject: [thelist] Design with includes | no framesets
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> Hi all!
> I'm quite new to php and have a basic question. So here it is: My php
sites
> are all completly php!
> So my site doesn't look like : <html> <body> <?php echo "blah";
> ?></body></html>
> it is all like: <?php echo "<html><body> " . $blah . "</body>
</html> ?>
>
> i hope this is understandable :)
>
> so my problem is that i want to have a index.php wich looks like : <?
php
> include("top.php"); include("menu.php"); include("main.php"); ?>
>
> how can i influence the layout of the includet files.... i don't want
to use
> framesets anymore!!!

I use some PHP software developed by a guy at onlinetools.org whose PHP
generates not only the (X)HTML, but also a style sheet. Why don't you
have a look at that? Not all of his scripts have been updated to do
this, but the script user simply inputs what s/he wants in the
comments, and the script does the rest! Really nifty.

From pjw at bw3.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 11:14:00 2002
From: pjw at bw3.co.uk (Paul J White)
Date: Sun Jun  9 11:14:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] IE and PNG Alpha Layers
Message-ID: <002a01c20fd0$8d463d00$020a0a0a@chris>

Sorry to bother those not interested, but I had a mail returned undelivered
from someone who requested the png/alphs fix for IE. For him and anyone
else, I've put it here:
http://www.bw3.co.uk/download/sleight.zip

I take no credit for the contents but would like to take this opportunity to
thank the author for a cool bit of script ;-)

Cheers, Paul.

From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com  Sun Jun  9 11:30:01 2002
From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone)
Date: Sun Jun  9 11:30:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <B9292A79.2031%chris@setmajer.com>
Message-ID: <027501c20fd2$11f7da80$b10ae343@oemcomputer>

> > Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention "designers."
>
> I sense someone needs some coffee. ;-)

Yes, it helped a lot! Guess I got touchy when I realized I was not taught right about TITLE to begin with and made me start thinking about what else? Then touchy became intensified when I realized I'd overlooked my own site! Egads!! Busy concentrating on clients. Well, "I" am the next client as of this morning.
    Thanks everyone for a most interesting discussion.

Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com

From gilescarey at supanet.com  Sun Jun  9 11:48:00 2002
From: gilescarey at supanet.com (Giles Carey)
Date: Sun Jun  9 11:48:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] preloading images in flash
Message-ID: <001101c20fb3$6ffb54a0$9a4e86d9@mlcuptn>

--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
does any one know how to preload images for the next page whilst playing a flash movie? is it best to use flash actionscript or to do it in the html of the page via JavaScript? help would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

Giles

From jjsteele22 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 12:35:01 2002
From: jjsteele22 at yahoo.com (jon steele)
Date: Sun Jun  9 12:35:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Form validation function in PHP
In-Reply-To: <EBEFIBMEOFMBIIJINLGDGEDCCBAA.dbindel@austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20020609173455.16751.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe you should use:

eval("\$$variable")

So if $variable is "name", it will return $name.

Jon

--- David Bindel <dbindel at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I am trying to write a PHP function that checks to see if a
> specified variable has been set and is not empty so I don't
> have to write a bunch of code for each variable I want to
> check.
>
> I have tried using the isset() and empty() functions to
> check whether $myvar exists and is not empty this using the
> following code, but apparently, PHP cannot evaluate a string
> which is the name of a variable ("$myvar"):
>
> function filled($variable) {
> 	if (isset(eval($variable)) && !empty(eval($variable))) {
> 		return true;
> 	} else {return false;}
> }
> echo filled("\$myvar");
>
> But it gives me this error:
> Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_EVAL, expecting
> T_VARIABLE or '$' in .....
>
> Does anyone know how I can make this function work right?
>
> TIA,
> David Bindel

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From xslf at xslf.com  Sun Jun  9 13:57:01 2002
From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes)
Date: Sun Jun  9 13:57:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Free tip
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKIECFCDAA.xslf@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLOPICLGEMAHONBKKMEDKCDAA.xslf@xslf.com>

Opps... since that post got to the list twise by mistake, I guess I owe a
tip...

<tip type="Mozilla" author="Shoshannah Forbes">
Since mozilla is ment for developers (rather then consumers like NS7), it
has a few cool feature that it is worth while to look into.

* Refrence side bars- have the info at your fingertips. Works with Opera as
well:
http://zvon.org/Output/bar_list.html

* The DOM inspector. A good tutorial for it's use can be found here:
http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

* JavaScript debugger.
You can install it from:
http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/venkman/
A good tutorial can be found here:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/venkman/venkman-walkthrough.html

</tip>

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
Behalf Of Shoshannah Forbes
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:53 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site check/advice

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 14:14:00 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:14:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Homesite 5
Message-ID: <NI4XIUQURXVWRF0ONLVP3VRQ07A9C8.3d03a8a8@DANFASCIA-21>

Just wondering if you guys think the upgrade from Homesite 4.5.2 to 5 is worth it?

Have macromedia improved the memory management at all... i.e. is Homesite less greedy yet

cheers guys

Dan

From jjsteele22 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 14:15:01 2002
From: jjsteele22 at yahoo.com (jon steele)
Date: Sun Jun  9 14:15:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] ColdFusion force download of restricted file
Message-ID: <20020609191417.60000.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,

I am currently using the following code to force a download of a file:

It seems to work, giving the desired result of a "Save File As..." window.

However, if I try this on a folder which is restricted using IIS (i.e. if you were to go to
http://www.domain.com/path/to/file/thefile.ext you would require authentication to access) the
code does nothing. I am wondering if this restriction IS the cause of this problem, because it
seems to work on any other folder. If this is the problem, what should be done to fix it? I
figured since this code uses the real (c:\...) path of the file, the authentication would have no
effect.

Thanks in advance.
Jon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From lwkraemer at directvinternet.com  Sun Jun  9 16:01:00 2002
From: lwkraemer at directvinternet.com (lon.kraemer)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:01:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Homesite 5
References: <NI4XIUQURXVWRF0ONLVP3VRQ07A9C8.3d03a8a8@DANFASCIA-21>
Message-ID: <008d01c20ff8$b604d030$0201a8c0@yoda>

I made the upgrade a couple of months ago for two very simple reasons:
XHTML support
It behaves with my dual monitor.

Since, I could list many improvements. GO FOR IT! A worthwhile upgrade
investment.

--
Lon Kraemer
-----------------------------------------

> Just wondering if you guys think the upgrade from Homesite 4.5.2 to
5 is worth it?
> Have macromedia improved the memory management at all... i.e. is
Homesite less greedy yet
> cheers guys
>
> Dan

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 16:18:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:18:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy>
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy>
Message-ID: <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>

At 6:39 PM -0400 6/8/02, rudy wrote:
>  > The site I can't use @import for uses DANGEROUS CSS!
>  > If it gets into the wrong browser it can render the site unnavigable.
>
>erik, i'm probably not the only one who'd really like to see some examples
>of this so-called dangerous css

OK http://www.gozz.com/temporary/dangerous/styled.cfm - explanation
on the page which also allows you to have the page give you CSS
intended for another browser.

>  > No really! I'm not lying! I gotta do it!
>
>got to or want to?  big diff

To achieve the effect my client wants in a variety of browsers, and
to ensure other  browsers get navigable content, and to have one HTML
page that works with every browser, and to make the best attempt at
futureproofing the site : I feel I have to serve different
stylesheets based on navigator.userAgent.

>few are the web sites where the artistic design (as opposed to functional
>design) cannot be simplified while preserving the integrity of the content,
>unless you're talking about artistic design itself as the content

Indeed, I am talking about the artistic design itself. Maybe that's
not important to nyou and your clients, but it's of upmost importance
to this particular client of mine, so it's important to me ... I was
provided with Quark documents and instructions to make it happen. I
enjoy trying to satisfy pickiness.

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 16:23:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:23:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] preloading images in flash
In-Reply-To: <001101c20fb3$6ffb54a0$9a4e86d9@mlcuptn>
References: <001101c20fb3$6ffb54a0$9a4e86d9@mlcuptn>
Message-ID: <a05111b01b929764d5f5f@[192.168.1.100]>

Hrm ... I assume you mean SWFs instead of images ... read the
documentation about loadMovie and then load them into an invisible
MovieClip or somewhere where they won't be seen ... that will get
them in the browser's cache

... if you mean the Flash 6 Player's ability to load external JPGs, I
don't know.

>does any one know how to preload images for the next page whilst
>playing a flash movie? is it best to use flash actionscript or to do
>it in the html of the page via JavaScript? help would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>cheers
>
>Giles

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From laureln at qwestinternet.net  Sun Jun  9 16:47:01 2002
From: laureln at qwestinternet.net (Laurel Nevans)
Date: Sun Jun  9 16:47:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer> <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com> <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <018801c20ffd$31d3c5a0$3c358141@mycomputer>

> Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention
"designers." I went through months of Web Design school where I
was taught to use ALT and not TITLE ... and I was taught using
the NN4.x browser where ALT is also displayed as a "tool tip." My
teachers then have misled a lot of students along the way if this
is the case.

I may be wrong here, but isn't TITLE a fairly NEW element?  I
don't think it was around, or widely implemented by the browsers
when the WAI guidelines were first written.  (Didn't the TITLE
tag come out w/ HTML 4?  I don't remember seeing the TITLE tag in
HTML 3.2 books...)

Laurel

From evolt at accessibleinter.net  Sun Jun  9 17:03:02 2002
From: evolt at accessibleinter.net (Bill Mason)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: Title element's genesis (was Re: [thelist] Netscape 7 and
  <alt>)
In-Reply-To: <018801c20ffd$31d3c5a0$3c358141@mycomputer>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer>
 <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com>
 <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020609145838.009fa900@accessibleinter.net>

At 02:27 PM 06/09/2002, you wrote:
>I may be wrong here, but isn't TITLE a fairly NEW element?  I
>don't think it was around, or widely implemented by the browsers
>when the WAI guidelines were first written.  (Didn't the TITLE
>tag come out w/ HTML 4?  I don't remember seeing the TITLE tag in
>HTML 3.2 books...)

TITLE existed for some things, such as A tags
(http://www.w3c.org/TR/REC-html32#anchor) but not for IMG
(http://www.w3c.org/TR/REC-html32#img).

Bill Mason
Accessible Internet
evolt at accessibleinter.net
http://www.accessibleinter.net/

From nassarsa at redconcepts.net  Sun Jun  9 17:30:01 2002
From: nassarsa at redconcepts.net (Samir M. Nassar)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:30:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy> 
	<a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa>

<cite>
> OK http://www.gozz.com/temporary/dangerous/styled.cfm - explanation
> on the page which also allows you to have the page give you CSS
> intended for another browser.
</cite>

Why? Useless excersize. Like demonstrating that car keys for BMWs are
dangerous for Hondas.

> To achieve the effect my client wants in a variety of browsers, and
> to ensure other  browsers get navigable content, and to have one HTML
> page that works with every browser, and to make the best attempt at
> futureproofing the site : I feel I have to serve different
> stylesheets based on navigator.userAgent.

I can ensure an effect on multiple browsers with one stylesheet and
tweaking. That reads as: one HTML page + one Style Sheet.

Of course, I have to test things on multiple platforms and multiple
browsers, but that something you are supposed to do anyway.

Writing mark-up and CSS to the specification is much easier for the
developer, and less resource intensive than your "solution" for the
client.

But what do I know? I can't even get to some sites without Flash. Must
be something wrong with me.

Samir M. Nassar
RedConcepts.NET - http://redconcepts.net

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 17:38:01 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:38:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCELFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

erik,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Erik Mattheis
>
> > erik, i'm probably not the only one who'd really like
> > to see some examples of this so-called dangerous css
>
> OK http://www.gozz.com/temporary/dangerous/styled.cfm -
> explanation on the page which also allows you to have
> the page give you CSS intended for another browser.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you probably don't wanna hear this right now, but i can't see anything on
that page but the black bar at the top.  the rest of the page is a blank,
white slate.

win2k/ie6

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 17:50:01 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 17:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCELFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
References: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCELFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05111b04b9298bb0628f@[192.168.1.100]>

At 3:38 PM -0700 6/9/02, .jeff wrote:
>you probably don't wanna hear this right now, but i can't see anything on
>that page but the black bar at the top.  the rest of the page is a blank,
>white slate.
>
>win2k/ie6

Does not surprise me ... haven't looked at in in IE 6 (or NN 7...)

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From TinaClarke at accessfp.net  Sun Jun  9 19:16:02 2002
From: TinaClarke at accessfp.net (Tina Clarke)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:16:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy> <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]> <1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa>
Message-ID: <056201c21012$785223e0$63d586d9@tina>

Are there any 'templates' for CSS? Where all the bases are
covered (in the best written css)... like tables titles
bookmarks fonts background and so on and so forth?....

Where one can then tweak them for colours and sizes and
such.... it's the writing a master sheet that stumps me each
time I attempt it.. I gave up when I could not figure out
which one meant the background of a page and what meant the
background of numerous other things and I've got topstyle
lite...

I've always found it easier to work from a template of
anything for an example it's much easier to figure out what
is the 'correct' way to do things then....

Also I keep reading conflicting things about css is it good
for accessibility or not? .... I'm confused...

thanks...

Tina

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 19:20:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:20:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & XML
Message-ID: <000001c21014$7f96e120$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Hello All :

I'm trying to read a XML file in PHP. Things are going good, I
can read the file (and display it, using the example from php.net)...but
that's all I can do. I need to figure out how to get a certain element's
data. For example, if the tag is TITLE, I need to store the data
somewhere. How do I access this information? How do I get the
startElement function to call the characterData function for a certain
tag type? Is this even possible?

Thanks,
Burhan

Here is the code :

[ snip ]
function startElement($parser, $name, $attribs) {
	print "<<font color=\"#0000cc\">$name</font>";
    if (sizeof($attribs)) {
        while (list($k, $v) = each($attribs)) {
            print " <font color=\"#009900\">$k</font>=\"<font
                   color=\"#990000\">$v</font>\"";
        }
    }
    print ">";
}

function endElement($parser, $name) {
    print "</<font color=\"#0000cc\">$name</font>>";
}

function characterData($parser, $data) {
    print "<b>$data</b>";
}
[ snip ]

From burhankhalid at members.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 19:22:01 2002
From: burhankhalid at members.evolt.org (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:22:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
In-Reply-To: <056201c21012$785223e0$63d586d9@tina>
Message-ID: <000101c21014$d41966a0$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>

Hey Tina :

You can download templates from any of the layout repositories (I'm
working on one right now). A few good bets for CSS are :

www.glish.com/css
www.bluerobot.com

Etc.

Let me know if you need a certain type of style sheet, and where you are
having difficulties.
--Burhan

From marty at face2interface.com  Sun Jun  9 19:39:03 2002
From: marty at face2interface.com (Marty Landman)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:39:03 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
In-Reply-To: <056201c21012$785223e0$63d586d9@tina>
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy>
 <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>
 <1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609202147.00aa0a00@mail.face2interface.com>

At 01:05 AM 6/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Are there any 'templates' for CSS? Where all the bases are
>covered (in the best written css)... like tables titles
>bookmarks fonts background and so on and so forth?....

Check out Jeffrey Zeldman's at
http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/css/opensource.html and read the article
too. "CSS: Steal These Style Sheets!" is part of the NY Public Library
style guide and loaded with great information including lots of CSS stuff.

>I've always found it easier to work from a template of
>anything for an example it's much easier to figure out what
>is the 'correct' way to do things then....

Same here. And breaking into new technology is such sweet sorrow. :) What
kills me is when I see my own site's nice liquid design with CSS specifying
font size in pixels just like it should on a 640 by 480 display and it just
looks like s--t. I can't stand it and don't know what more to do about it.

hth,
Marty

--
SIMPL WebSite Creation: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml

From nparrot at pair.com  Sun Jun  9 19:50:01 2002
From: nparrot at pair.com (Nicole P)
Date: Sun Jun  9 19:50:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & XML
References: <000001c21014$7f96e120$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <00c901c21018$9e06cae0$b700a8c0@videotron.ca>

The example I have uses global variables.
In StartElement, you study what element you have and set global flags.
In CharacterHandler, you handle according to your global flags, and in
EndElement, you reset your flags.
 For example, StartElement would have:
 if ($name == "CHANNEL" )
 {
  $in_channel_tag = 1;
 }

Not totally elegant, but that's the way I've been handling it for now

Nicole

----- Original Message -----
From: "Burhan Khalid" <burhankhalid at members.evolt.org>
> I'm trying to read a XML file in PHP. Things are going good, I
> can read the file (and display it, using the example from php.net)...but
> that's all I can do. I need to figure out how to get a certain element's
> data. For example, if the tag is TITLE, I need to store the data
> somewhere. How do I access this information? How do I get the
> startElement function to call the characterData function for a certain
> tag type? Is this even possible?
>
> Thanks,
> Burhan
>
> Here is the code :
>
> [ snip ]
> function startElement($parser, $name, $attribs) {
> print "<<font color=\"#0000cc\">$name</font>";
>     if (sizeof($attribs)) {
>         while (list($k, $v) = each($attribs)) {
>             print " <font color=\"#009900\">$k</font>=\"<font
>                    color=\"#990000\">$v</font>\"";
>         }
>     }
>     print ">";
> }
>
> function endElement($parser, $name) {
>     print "</<font color=\"#0000cc\">$name</font>>";
> }
>
> function characterData($parser, $data) {
>     print "<b>$data</b>";
> }
> [ snip ]
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>

From cache at dowebscentral.com  Sun Jun  9 20:08:01 2002
From: cache at dowebscentral.com (Keith)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:08:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Converting perl script to executable file
In-Reply-To: <54640173AF52D411B1A400508BC2992B6F4DDC@SMMAIL>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609190532.024bf0c0@dowebscentral.com>

At 07:09 AM Sunday 6/9/02, Dovalle wrote:

>Can I convert perl script into executable? how should I do it
Checkout Perl2exe, it can compile your script into a Unix or Win exe with
the interpreter included so the script will run as a standalone exe. The
Pro version even allows you to create shareware versions that use
registration keys.

http://www.indigostar.com/perl2exe.htm

keith

cache at dowebscentral.com

From jjk3 at msstate.edu  Sun Jun  9 20:15:00 2002
From: jjk3 at msstate.edu (Joel Konkle-Parker)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:15:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Problem XML Situation
Message-ID: <PEEOKEDDEBLLMOCJBGMDKELLCEAA.jjk3@msstate.edu>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've been trying to figure out how to solve a particular problem I'm
having, but for now I'm stuck. Any ideas guys?

The situation is this: My site uses Newspro for its daily site news
feature. Newspro outputs a snippet of html including the news pieces
as a .txt file. Normally, you would simply include this file into
your html file with SSI. Here are my problems:

- - I'm writing the articles featured on my site in pure XML/XSLT
- - My hosting service doesn't parse XML files for SSI
- - There are certain parts of the site's layout that I want to be
visible on every page (link lists, menus, etc), and I was planning on
doing this using multi-source XSLT
- - The document() XSLT function requires a valid XML document, which
this .txt snippet is not
- - If I rename the page needing SSI to have a .html extension while
still remaining an XML file, the SSI works
- - However using <xsl:value-of> to display this snippet displays only
the text, not all the related markup in the .txt file (divs, anchors,
etc)
- - If I make the page featuring the news HMTL and the rest XML, to
change menu items I'd have to edit two files instead of one (the HTML
file and the XML menu file called by its XSLT stylesheet)

If any of that made sense.... does anybody have any suggestions?

The page in question is http://www.ballsome.com/test/index.html
(xhtml version)

- -joeljkp

- ---------------------------------------
http://www.ballsome.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBPQPc93880CLOJa2eEQItBACg1g3VWNodRfyno8PpuGQb193dWnoAn1x9
BFDWjVD8l7OU2t99LqjfLffc
=WCE0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From danfascia at totalise.co.uk  Sun Jun  9 20:39:02 2002
From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] PHP & XML
In-Reply-To: <000001c21014$7f96e120$fde9fea9@amber8wz6511xb>
Message-ID: <98OLHWU4YTOLID42JDDB43C996TSZX.3d0402fa@DANFASCIA-21>

> How do I get the startElement function to call the characterData function for a certain
>tag type? Is this even possible?
>

Expat does not parse XML into a document object model format which would be ideal for
what you wish...

Why not try the EZXML freeware parser which does parse into a DOM tree for you...

http://developer.ez.no/filemanager/download/310/ezxml-1_0_4.tar.gz

It requires no additional libraries and is made in 100% PHP... which does make it a bit slower
Im guessing.

HTH

Dan

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sun Jun  9 20:42:00 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:42:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy> <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <3D040421.3030301@cyberfuddle.com>

Erik Mattheis wrote:
> At 6:39 PM -0400 6/8/02, rudy wrote:
>
>>  > The site I can't use @import for uses DANGEROUS CSS!
>>  > If it gets into the wrong browser it can render the site unnavigable.
>>
>> erik, i'm probably not the only one who'd really like to see some
>> examples
>> of this so-called dangerous css
>
> OK http://www.gozz.com/temporary/dangerous/styled.cfm - explanation
> on the page which also allows you to have the page give you CSS
> intended for another browser.

Remember what I said earlier about the inherent dangers of
browser-detect scripts?  Uhuh.

I'm using Mozilla 1 RC3[0], which is very similar to (but slightly
better than) Netscape 6.2.  Despite this, I get treated to the "bad
browser" stylesheet, when I can quite easily handle Netscape 6.2's
stylesheet.

You forgot to factor in Mozilla, and probably Netscape 7, didn't you?
Don't feel bad - it's an easy mistake to make - which is why I think
browser-detect-scripts are usually a Bad Thing :o).

[0] Does anyone have a good reason why I should upgrade to 1.0?

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From mark at cyberfuddle.com  Sun Jun  9 20:43:02 2002
From: mark at cyberfuddle.com (Mark Gallagher)
Date: Sun Jun  9 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [thelist] Netscape 7 and <alt>
References: <009701c20ed8$7eebc2a0$270ae343@oemcomputer> <3D033D41.9000803@cyberfuddle.com> <00ab01c20fb8$07d390e0$b10ae343@oemcomputer> <018801c20ffd$31d3c5a0$3c358141@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <3D04043A.5030302@cyberfuddle.com>

Laurel Nevans wrote:
>>Well, excuse me. I sense a slam there as you mention
>
> "designers." I went through months of Web Design school where I
> was taught to use ALT and not TITLE ... and I was taught using
> the NN4.x browser where ALT is also displayed as a "tool tip." My
> teachers then have misled a lot of students along the way if this
> is the case.
>
> I may be wrong here, but isn't TITLE a fairly NEW element?  I
> don't think it was around, or widely implemented by the browsers
> when the WAI guidelines were first written.  (Didn't the TITLE
> tag come out w/ HTML 4?  I don't remember seeing the TITLE tag in
> HTML 3.2 books...)

TITLE as a global attribute[0] is indeed new with HTML 4, so there's
nothing wrong with not having heard of it.

But TITLE is not a replacement for ALT's old behaviour.  ALT is as it
always was - and ALT is *not* TITLE.  AIUI, TITLE was actually created
as something that those who misused ALT could channel their energies
into :o)

[0] Meaning an attribute that can be used on *any* element

--
Mark Gallagher
http://cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/

From kalos at carolina.rr.com  Sun Jun  9 21:13:01 2002
From: kalos at carolina.rr.com (Benjamin)
Date: Sun Jun  9 21:13:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Re: Converting perl script to executable file
In-Reply-To: <20020609170440.549A43A2F@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020609220909.00a6c8f8@pop-server.carolina.rr.com>

Perl2Exe might be useful for those not on a *nix platform. The homepage is
located at:

http://www.indigostar.com/perl2exe.htm

In response to an earlier reply.. if would have to be chmod'd.. otherwise
it's just a text file. =)

>Hey,
>Can I convert perl script into executable? how should I do it
>
>Thanks
>
>Dovalle

From TinaClarke at accessfp.net  Sun Jun  9 21:27:00 2002
From: TinaClarke at accessfp.net (Tina Clarke)
Date: Sun Jun  9 21:27:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy><a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]><1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa> <5.1.0.14.0.20020609202147.00aa0a00@mail.face2interface.com>
Message-ID: <061801c21024$ae10d140$63d586d9@tina>

>
> Same here. And breaking into new technology is such sweet
sorrow. :) What
> kills me is when I see my own site's nice liquid design
with CSS specifying
> font size in pixels just like it should on a 640 by 480
display and it just
> looks like s--t. I can't stand it and don't know what more
to do about it.
>
> hth,
> Marty
>

Thanks for the info guys...:)

Marty.. you can imagine my problems then:)... I'm too scared
to stick my sig line in here.... just finished a revamp...
I'm going to learn css before the next one... and I was
wondering... does arachnophilia for instance or something
similar (no way can I use a notepad) use accessibility html
coding?... I've been reading lots about accessibility and
there is lots of stuff for tables that should be used and so
forth... or is css going to cover all that accessibility
stuff.. not just usability but accessibility....and
finally:).. something that has been buggin me.. .you can
cover in the sheet standard happenings.. .like titles etc..
but what happens when you want to suddenly highlight a
word?.. .do you use a ? inline style for bold on the
word?... and otherwise just keep on typing the content and
not use font sizes, types  etc or what have you as the sheet
will cover that within the body? Or do you have to point it
out in the sheet specifically?

Ta Tina

From TinaClarke at accessfp.net  Sun Jun  9 22:09:01 2002
From: TinaClarke at accessfp.net (Tina Clarke)
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:09:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy><a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]><1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa> <5.1.0.14.0.20020609202147.00aa0a00@mail.face2interface.com> <061801c21024$ae10d140$63d586d9@tina>
Message-ID: <000701c2102a$940324a0$3fd487d9@tina>

http://bluerobot.com/

I just viewed the above link in netscape 4.73... there is
nothing there but text...

nothing like it looks in ie5.1se...

I meant when I asked for templates... that they render
tables in netscape.... does'nt css work in netscape?

netscape drives me batty

Tina

From michael at tapinternet.com  Sun Jun  9 22:16:01 2002
From: michael at tapinternet.com (Michael Kimsal)
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:16:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] templates for css
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy><a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]><1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa> <5.1.0.14.0.20020609202147.00aa0a00@mail.face2interface.com> <061801c21024$ae10d140$63d586d9@tina> <000701c2102a$940324a0$3fd487d9@tina>
Message-ID: <3D041B0D.3080704@tapinternet.com>

Tina Clarke wrote:

>http://bluerobot.com/
>
>I just viewed the above link in netscape 4.73... there is
>nothing there but text...
>
>nothing like it looks in ie5.1se...
>
>I meant when I asked for templates... that they render
>tables in netscape.... does'nt css work in netscape?
>
>
>

Looks fine in the latest Mozilla and I would therefore assume Netscape 6.2.

Don't even bother trying to support Netscape 4.73.  4.79, I guess could
be argued it's their latest 4.7 series, so maybe it should be supported
somewhat, but 4.73 is ancient and doesn't deserve the support people
try to give it.

Michael Kimsal
http://www.logicreate.com
734-480-9961

From roselli at earthlink.net  Sun Jun  9 22:31:00 2002
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:31:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <B9281F24.1F80%chris@setmajer.com>
References: <3D01E977.21303.A22702AE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D03E48D.3804.A9E3CF42@localhost>

> From: Chris Kaminski <chris at setmajer.com>
[...]
> > this is correct, however, looking at caselaw from similar cases in
> > countries with similar laws, coupled with public opinion at the
> > time, as well as other factors, including how risky you want to be,
> > can give you a good idea of where things are headed...
>
> Sure, but don't expect me to grant your statements based on your 'good
> idea where things are headed' the same weight as those of a practicing
> lawyer.

hell, of course not... and i would never purport to be an expert to
my clients, either, but since i am aware of legislation that *might*
affect them in some way, it serves them to bring it up, frame it a
bit, and then let them seek appropriate legal counsel...

too bad it's often happened that their legal counsel has no idea
about any of this stuff, let alone how it applies to the web...

[...]
> Fine and well. There's a difference between advising someone to be
> cautious and arguing that if somoeone develops a Flash-only site, they
> put themselves and their client at risk of a lawsuit.

i've never made that argument... i have *always* argued that Flash,
in and of itself, is less accessible than HTML, and is far easier to
make completely inaccessible... that doesn't mean all implementations
are bad, inaccessible, or that HTML versions are always going to be
better...

> If the latter is the case, then it seems to me that text-heavy sites
> must also risk a lawsuit unless they provide audio and/or pictorial
> versions of their site for those suffering from learning disabilities.

this is a good point... somehow i suspect the impact on blind users
will receive greater weight than that of learning disabled users...
only time will tell...

> >> With programming, you compile the code and run it. If it works, you
> >> were correct. With Web design, you view it in the browser and have
> >> users test it. If it works, you were right. With U.S. law, you must
> >> go to court.
> >
> > i would disagree here... you don't have to go to court... you can,
> > as i say above, watch trends, interpret the laws, and ply the
> > risk...
>
> You're wrong. In the U.S., the constitution expressly charges the
> courts with interpreting the law. Any interpretation by anyone else is
> persuasive only inasmuch as it is a good prediction of what the courts
> would decide were they to hear the case.

the courts are only capable of interpreting the law if the case makes
it to court... too many cases are settled outside of court by lawyers
who make educated guesses on their chances of winning (and losing)...
 those settlements become a de facto ruling in the sense that later
pending cases look to it to weigh their own chances...

so, if a site i build has a suit filed against it by a blind user,
and my lawyer suggests i settle for a specific sum (in the litigious
U.S., that can easily be a huge sum), then it really doesn't matter
what the judge says since it never gets there, and i'm still out the
cash and have to remedy the problem with the site...

> Unless you're the IRS, when you're within the jurisdiction of a U.S.
> court you can watch, interpret and ply all you like, but the judge's
> (or jury's) decision will carry the day. Period.

again, unless your lawyers feel it's best to settle out of court, in
which case it really doesn't matter what the judge says, you still
can get hosed...

> > absolutely...  and context extends beyond that to things like public
> > opinion (did a blind man recently fall down a well that was
> > unmarked?) to international law from similar-enough countries (did
> > UK banks get successfully sued by blind users, did SOCOG have to
> > settle their olympic site fiasco and spend lots of $$?)
>
> None of which is terribly persuasive in a U.S. court.
[snip legal comparisons, because they address *why* they aren't
admissable (which is correct), which isn't really part of my
argument, since i'm discussing out-of-court cases]

no, but when my lawyer is deciding on settling, then it is...

> > so, no, i'm not really challenging your points, but i do believe
> > there is a lot more room for non-legal professionals to track and
> > qualify legal issues...
>
> Non-professionals can track and qualify whatever they like, but when
> conflicts arise between disparate non-professionals or between
> non-professionals and professionals I think it entirely appropriate to
> ask for the backgrounds of those involved in order to weigh the
> relative persuasiveness of their arguments.

yeah, but i wasn't challenging that, either...

--
Read the evolt.org case study
Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself
http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg
ISBN: 1904151035

From Evolt at ZName.com  Sun Jun  9 22:40:01 2002
From: Evolt at ZName.com (James S. Huggins (Evolt))
Date: Sun Jun  9 22:40:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] Flash, usability, accessibility
In-Reply-To: <3D03E48D.3804.A9E3CF42@localhost>
Message-ID: <EAEMJJNBNJKDICLDNFHMEEGIAPAB.Evolt@ZName.com>

==========================
You're wrong. In the U.S., the constitution expressly charges the courts
with interpreting the law.
==========================

While I would agree that the courts have the job of interpreting, I would
disagree that the constitution expressly grants that authority.

A quick review of Article III
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleiii.html)
provides no such charge.

James S. Huggins

...

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 23:05:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:05:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa>
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy> 
 <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]> <1023662936.1641.354.camel@yafa>
Message-ID: <a05111b06b929d4f1c1f4@[192.168.1.100]>

At 5:48 PM -0500 6/9/02, Samir M. Nassar wrote:
>I can ensure an effect on multiple browsers with one stylesheet and
>tweaking. That reads as: one HTML page + one Style Sheet.

Sure, but how would I go about this? Would appreciate you sharing
some knowledge!

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From webshot at members.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 23:15:01 2002
From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:15:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] preloading images in flash
In-Reply-To: <a05111b01b929764d5f5f@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <000001c21035$43e7efe0$6701a8c0@neonreactor>

> ... if you mean the Flash 6 Player's ability to load external
> JPGs, I don't know.

But this tutorial covers that very thing.
http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/mx/flash/articles/flashmx_php02.html

John Corry
Neon Cowboy Design
http://www.neoncowboy.com
mail : john at neoncowboy.com
phone : 808.572.8494

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 23:15:08 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:15:08 2002
Subject: [thelist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <3D040421.3030301@cyberfuddle.com>
References: <01c20f3d$66da4f00$15551dd1@rudy>
 <a05111b00b9297355ad15@[192.168.1.100]> <3D040421.3030301@cyberfuddle.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b07b929d5c0f257@[192.168.1.100]>

At 11:42 AM +1000 6/10/02, Mark Gallagher wrote:
>Remember what I said earlier about the inherent dangers of
>browser-detect scripts?  Uhuh.
>
>I'm using Mozilla 1 RC3[0], which is very similar to (but slightly
>better than) Netscape 6.2.  Despite this, I get treated to the "bad
>browser" stylesheet, when I can quite easily handle Netscape 6.2's
>stylesheet.

Sure. And there's certainly others that would fail in a way that
makes the page unusable ... I'd rather it be usable for everyone, and
"as intended" for most than  look pretty for more and be unusable for
some.

Again, I need to simulate the "frameset" you get with the browsers
this (http://www.gozz.com/temporary/dangerous/styled.cfm) works for
OR use "real" frames.

Maybe aardvark is right - I should bite the bullet and use frames.

But if I don't have to and also can use capability testing, I'd
rather do that. You and Samir seem to think that is possible, but
haven't made specific suggestions .... what should I try?

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From gozz at gozz.com  Sun Jun  9 23:33:00 2002
From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:33:00 2002
Subject: [thelist] RE: [offlist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCELFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
References: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPCELFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05111b09b929dbdb60a0@[192.168.1.100]>

Does your documents.pape.com CSS work in IE 6? That was what I was
looking at when figuring out how to do it in IE.

At 3:38 PM -0700 6/9/02, .jeff wrote:
>
>you probably don't wanna hear this right now, but i can't see anything on
>that page but the black bar at the top.  the rest of the page is a blank,
>white slate.
>
>win2k/ie6

__________________________________________
- Erik Mattheis

(612) 377 2272
http://goZz.com/

Through June 15
9am - 3pm M-F:
(952) 838 7698

__________________________________________

From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Jun  9 23:39:01 2002
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Jun  9 23:39:01 2002
Subject: [thelist] RE: [offlist] dangerous CSS, was: Netscape... why?
In-Reply-To: <a05111b09b929dbdb60a0@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <BKEKIFEABABEKPANNEHPKEMFFNAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

erik,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Erik Mattheis
>
> Does your documents.pape.com CSS work in IE 6?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, that site works fine in ie6.  i was never able to get it to work the
same way in any other browser though.  in this instance that's ok for a
couple of reasons:

1)  they didn't pay for a design, so it was an opportunity
    for me to try something new.

2)  most (like 98ish%) of the users are on win2k/ie6 so
    it works for the majority of the people using it.

3)  it fails gracefully for everyone else, though the
    look isn't the same across the board.

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/