just a quick question: have you played with margins? (margin:0px;) and a suggestion not to use tables for layout ;-) kind regards, -m.j.milicevic http://www.machak.com Anybody know how to solve the 100% height DTD problem? I wanted to achieve the something like this, http://test.sc23.info/table_without_dtd.html but when I added the DTD, it becomes like this, http://test.sc23.info/table_withdtd.html somehow it always have extra space at the bottom of the page both in IE and FF, I don’t want create a page without DTD as this is the web standard these days, but its making me a headache. I also created a page without using table, but still no luck http://test.sc23.info/div_withdtd.html Anybody know whats wrong with my codes?