From harvester at lists.evolt.org  Mon Dec  8 00:00:10 2008
From: harvester at lists.evolt.org (harvester at lists.evolt.org)
Date: 8 Dec 2008 00:00:10 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Tip Harvest for the Week of Monday Dec 01, 2008
Message-ID: <20081208060010.6969.qmail@tempest.evolt.org>


The tip harvest for the Week of Monday Dec 01, 2008 has been added
to the lists.evolt.org site.  Get it at:

   http://lists.evolt.org/harvest/show.cgi?w=20081201

Week at a glance listing at:

   http://lists.evolt.org/harvest/week.cgi?w=20081201


Harvest Summary
---------------

Number of messages: 115
Number of tips    : 2

Tip Authors
-----------

Hugh Miller (1)
sbeam (1)

Tip Types
---------

design (1)
PHP (Newbies) (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What: Tips are how a list subscriber "pays" for making an off-topic post
      to the list (see List Info for more information).  Of course, this
      does not make off-topic posts acceptable. :)

How : You include a tip in your posting by using the [tip]...[/tip] tag
      (replace the square brackets with angle brackets).  The tip tag takes
      the optional attributes of 'type' and 'author'.



From willthemoor at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 01:17:27 2008
From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:17:27 -0800
Subject: [thelist] HTML (!!!) How would you code this?
In-Reply-To: <1228600365.493af42d97f8c@cfpress.co.uk>
References: <8b20a7490812050248v71939d62t3cd80108463335bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<d9eca4e80812050415j7b3a0d36l14d1b1569fbcfc92@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b20a7490812050521s4d1f6998l597ec288c9b58857@mail.gmail.com>
	<4939841A.3060300@seastorm.com>
	<4eedb92a0812051231i28a0c150y6c3121d10ae3a1fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<1A5BA936-437B-4F40-B5EA-67CD5E12A8D8@easyweb.co.uk>
	<1228600365.493af42d97f8c@cfpress.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2506fbd50812072317g26b6b47fod38cd560a2a507ea@mail.gmail.com>

hi. If you want the content to relate, consider using an html
structure where the relationships are implied. There's a lot of ways
to mark this up but here's a few ideas.

<div id="category">
  <h2>Category</h2>
  <dl>
	  <dt>Headline</dt>
	    <dd><img src="image" alt="Caption" /></dd>
	    <dd>Published</dd>
	    <dd>Byline / Comments / Multimedia</dd>
	    <dd>Teaser paragraph text</dd>
	  <dt>Headline 2</dt>
	  <dt>Headline 3</dt>
	  <dt>(etc.)</dt>
  </dl>
</div>

<div id="category">
    <h2>Category</h2>
    <ol>
        <li>
            <h3>Headline</h3>
            <img src="image" alt="Caption" />
            <span>Published</span>
            <span>Byline / Comments / Multimedia</p>
            <p>Teaser paragraph text</p>
        </li>
       <li>Headline 2</li>
       <li>Headline 3</li>
       <li>(etc.)</li>
    </ol>
</div>

might as well use a microformat and add a little extra semantic
weight.  hAtom fits the bill.

<div id="category">
    <h2>Category</h2>
    <ol class="hfeed">
        <li class="hentry">
            <h3 class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article.html"
rel="bookmark">Headline</a></h3>
            <img src="image" alt="Caption" />
            <span class="byline">Published</span>
            <span class="byline"><span class="author">Byline</span> /
Comments / Multimedia</p>
            <p class="entry-content">Teaser paragraph text</p>
        </li>
       <li class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article2.html"
rel="bookmark">Headline 2</a></li>
       <li class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article3.html"
rel="bookmark">Headline 3</a></li>
       <li>(etc.)</li>
    </ol>
</div>

the classing may seem verbose but that's to allow flexibility - you
can apply the microformat to most any html you like.  more on hAtom
here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom


From hmiller at cfpress.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 04:20:49 2008
From: hmiller at cfpress.co.uk (Hugh Miller)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:20:49 +0000
Subject: [thelist] HTML (!!!) How would you code this?
In-Reply-To: <2506fbd50812072317g26b6b47fod38cd560a2a507ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b20a7490812050248v71939d62t3cd80108463335bc@mail.gmail.com>	<d9eca4e80812050415j7b3a0d36l14d1b1569fbcfc92@mail.gmail.com>	<8b20a7490812050521s4d1f6998l597ec288c9b58857@mail.gmail.com>	<4939841A.3060300@seastorm.com>	<4eedb92a0812051231i28a0c150y6c3121d10ae3a1fa@mail.gmail.com>	<1A5BA936-437B-4F40-B5EA-67CD5E12A8D8@easyweb.co.uk>	<1228600365.493af42d97f8c@cfpress.co.uk>
	<2506fbd50812072317g26b6b47fod38cd560a2a507ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493CF501.7070908@cfpress.co.uk>

Cheers Will,

I don't think the content I am going to be displaying is really suited 
to the definition list as the published date and byline may be the same 
in more than one element. And to be honest, it is perfectly possible for 
even headlines to be duplicated.

The second example you gave me was pretty much what I had thought about 
because the image is always related to that headline and it has the 
benefit of holding it all together - and the hAtom variant of that 
appears to be pretty much ideal, thanks a lot for that.

H

Will wrote:
> hi. If you want the content to relate, consider using an html
> structure where the relationships are implied. There's a lot of ways
> to mark this up but here's a few ideas.
>
> <div id="category">
>   <h2>Category</h2>
>   <dl>
> 	  <dt>Headline</dt>
> 	    <dd><img src="image" alt="Caption" /></dd>
> 	    <dd>Published</dd>
> 	    <dd>Byline / Comments / Multimedia</dd>
> 	    <dd>Teaser paragraph text</dd>
> 	  <dt>Headline 2</dt>
> 	  <dt>Headline 3</dt>
> 	  <dt>(etc.)</dt>
>   </dl>
> </div>
>
> <div id="category">
>     <h2>Category</h2>
>     <ol>
>         <li>
>             <h3>Headline</h3>
>             <img src="image" alt="Caption" />
>             <span>Published</span>
>             <span>Byline / Comments / Multimedia</p>
>             <p>Teaser paragraph text</p>
>         </li>
>        <li>Headline 2</li>
>        <li>Headline 3</li>
>        <li>(etc.)</li>
>     </ol>
> </div>
>
> might as well use a microformat and add a little extra semantic
> weight.  hAtom fits the bill.
>
> <div id="category">
>     <h2>Category</h2>
>     <ol class="hfeed">
>         <li class="hentry">
>             <h3 class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article.html"
> rel="bookmark">Headline</a></h3>
>             <img src="image" alt="Caption" />
>             <span class="byline">Published</span>
>             <span class="byline"><span class="author">Byline</span> /
> Comments / Multimedia</p>
>             <p class="entry-content">Teaser paragraph text</p>
>         </li>
>        <li class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article2.html"
> rel="bookmark">Headline 2</a></li>
>        <li class="entry-title"><a href="link-to-article3.html"
> rel="bookmark">Headline 3</a></li>
>        <li>(etc.)</li>
>     </ol>
> </div>
>
> the classing may seem verbose but that's to allow flexibility - you
> can apply the microformat to most any html you like.  more on hAtom
> here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom
>   

-- 
Hugh Miller
Web Developer
Clyde & Forth Press Ltd

Tel:   +44-01475-726511
Fax:   +44-01475-783734
Email: hmiller at cfpress.co.uk


This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the addressee. If you have received it in error, please inform the sender and delete it immediately. The views or opinions contained within this email may not be those of Clyde & Forth Press Ltd, which accepts no liability for any damage caused by the transmission of any viruses. E-mail traffic is monitored within Clyde & Forth Press Ltd and messages may be viewed.

Clyde & Forth Press Ltd is a company registered in Scotland (SC132609) with its registered office at Pitreavie Business Park, Dunfermline, Fife, KY11 8QS.


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.



From st.schwarzer at geois.de  Mon Dec  8 06:20:38 2008
From: st.schwarzer at geois.de (Stefan Schwarzer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:20:38 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Multiple but different skins with the same coding?
Message-ID: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>

Hi there,

we're managing a (data) portal. Now, a wish from partner organizations  
came up to have "regional" versions of this portal. In a first step we  
proposed to run all regional versions through the "global" one. This  
avoids duplication of the code and then further down the line the  
challenges with upgrading the code to a newer version.

This means that we would have one single portal with different skins,  
including different logos, titles, eventually even languages.

What is the best way to implement this? Normally, skins are changed by  
using different CSS styles. But this isn't enough for our project.  
Especially the home page will be structured slightly differently. The  
rest of the pages probably will stay the same, except logos etc.

Can someone give me a hint how to achieve this efficiently?

Thanks a lot!


  ____________________________________________________________________

   Stefan Schwarzer

   Lean Back and Relax - Enjoy some Nature Photography
   http://photoblog.la-famille-schwarzer.de

   Appetite for Global Data? UNEP GEO Data Portal:
   http://geodata.grid.unep.ch
   ____________________________________________________________________








From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 06:24:06 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:24:06 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Multiple but different skins with the same coding?
In-Reply-To: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
References: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812080424k181ad8afwf8a3cb3d90b6b0c7@mail.gmail.com>

> This means that we would have one single portal with different skins,
> including different logos, titles, eventually even languages.
>
> What is the best way to implement this? Normally, skins are changed by
> using different CSS styles. But this isn't enough for our project.
> Especially the home page will be structured slightly differently. The
> rest of the pages probably will stay the same, except logos etc.
>
> Can someone give me a hint how to achieve this efficiently?

A template engine. That's the hint.

For a more specific answer, I would need more details about your code,
as in what language, what platform etc.

Fred


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 06:25:43 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:25:43 +0200
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
Message-ID: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>

I use this:

http://www.allnetic.com/working-time-tracker/screenshot1.html

and for Windows I think it's fantastic. Has everything I need and it
works beautifully and the tray icon makes changing tasks a snap.
Reports are simple yet sufficient for me.

Problem is I am moving more now into Linux and OS X and I am looking
for a cross browser tool. I just checked out a few Above AIR time
trackers, but none seem to have what Allnetic has.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks.


From hmiller at cfpress.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 07:15:53 2008
From: hmiller at cfpress.co.uk (Hugh Miller)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:15:53 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Multiple but different skins with the same coding?
In-Reply-To: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
References: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
Message-ID: <493D1E09.2050708@cfpress.co.uk>

Stefan,

I have a similar thing set up for a regional newspaper firm, there is a 
single, 100% the same set of PHP scripts that are used throughout the 
system even though different sites may have slightly different layout, 
components etc.

I use a combination of .htaccess files, mysql backend, php front end to 
do this.

MYSQL basic config:
There is a table "sites" which actually contains anything specific to a 
site. The key one is using a Site Abbreviation code which can then be 
used throughout to change logos etc (ie. siteabb_logo.jpg).

This Site Abbreviation is also used as a column name in the "sections" 
table of which I made a short post to the list about a week and a half 
ago. This table allows for multiple depth of sections, sort ordering 
within sections etc.

The CSS file is simply a PHP script that an .htaccess file tells the 
server to parse. In the "sites" table there is a column for 'skin' (I 
use basic colour names). So http://www.site.com/css/blue/default.css 
maps to http://www.site.com/css/default.php?skin=blue

Within the PHP / CSS file the word blue then loads variables for 
different colour presets that are determined. This is not always 
efficient as sometimes a skin may not use as many alternate colours as 
others so you end up loading unneccesary classes (only adds a few k to 
the file overall though).

The PHP scripts work on a modular principle and all modules are stored 
as functions, called when required, each standard position will 
generally have a fall back default with alternates offered to sites 
(using that site abbreviation code again) where needed.

I'd be happy to go into more detail if required.

H

Stefan Schwarzer wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> we're managing a (data) portal. Now, a wish from partner organizations  
> came up to have "regional" versions of this portal. In a first step we  
> proposed to run all regional versions through the "global" one. This  
> avoids duplication of the code and then further down the line the  
> challenges with upgrading the code to a newer version.
>
> This means that we would have one single portal with different skins,  
> including different logos, titles, eventually even languages.
>
> What is the best way to implement this? Normally, skins are changed by  
> using different CSS styles. But this isn't enough for our project.  
> Especially the home page will be structured slightly differently. The  
> rest of the pages probably will stay the same, except logos etc.
>
> Can someone give me a hint how to achieve this efficiently?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
>
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>
>    Stefan Schwarzer
>
>    Lean Back and Relax - Enjoy some Nature Photography
>    http://photoblog.la-famille-schwarzer.de
>
>    Appetite for Global Data? UNEP GEO Data Portal:
>    http://geodata.grid.unep.ch
>    ____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Hugh Miller
Web Developer
Clyde & Forth Press Ltd

Tel:   +44-01475-726511
Fax:   +44-01475-783734
Email: hmiller at cfpress.co.uk


This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the addressee. If you have received it in error, please inform the sender and delete it immediately. The views or opinions contained within this email may not be those of Clyde & Forth Press Ltd, which accepts no liability for any damage caused by the transmission of any viruses. E-mail traffic is monitored within Clyde & Forth Press Ltd and messages may be viewed.

Clyde & Forth Press Ltd is a company registered in Scotland (SC132609) with its registered office at Pitreavie Business Park, Dunfermline, Fife, KY11 8QS.


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From sbeam at onsetcorps.net  Mon Dec  8 08:40:17 2008
From: sbeam at onsetcorps.net (sbeam)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:40:17 -0500
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200812080940.17418.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>

On Monday 08 December 2008 07:25, Fred Jones wrote:
> Problem is I am moving more now into Linux and OS X and I am looking
> for a cross browser tool. I just checked out a few Above AIR time
> trackers, but none seem to have what Allnetic has.

came across this some time ago http://keeptempo.com/

have not actually tried it yet as I have an old home-grown timer that keeps 
clunking along. But have a look I would be curious to see how you like it.

enjoy,
Sam


From st.schwarzer at geois.de  Mon Dec  8 08:47:06 2008
From: st.schwarzer at geois.de (Stefan Schwarzer)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:47:06 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Multiple but different skins with the same coding?
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812080424k181ad8afwf8a3cb3d90b6b0c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
	<177c0a10812080424k181ad8afwf8a3cb3d90b6b0c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C59A6A90-839D-4654-908D-6FA567A43230@geois.de>

>> This means that we would have one single portal with different skins,
>> including different logos, titles, eventually even languages.
>>
>> What is the best way to implement this? Normally, skins are changed  
>> by
>> using different CSS styles. But this isn't enough for our project.
>> Especially the home page will be structured slightly differently. The
>> rest of the pages probably will stay the same, except logos etc.
>>
>> Can someone give me a hint how to achieve this efficiently?
>
> A template engine. That's the hint.
>
> For a more specific answer, I would need more details about your code,
> as in what language, what platform etc.

Sorry, forgot to mention that. Working with PHP 5 and Postgres on  
Linux/Apache. And using Smarty template.

Thanks for your help!


From rob at sanchothefat.com  Mon Dec  8 09:05:52 2008
From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:05:52 +0000
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493D37D0.90006@sanchothefat.com>

Fred Jones wrote:
> I use this:
>
> http://www.allnetic.com/working-time-tracker/screenshot1.html
>
> and for Windows I think it's fantastic. Has everything I need and it
> works beautifully and the tray icon makes changing tasks a snap.
> Reports are simple yet sufficient for me.
>
> Problem is I am moving more now into Linux and OS X and I am looking
> for a cross browser tool. I just checked out a few Above AIR time
> trackers, but none seem to have what Allnetic has.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
>   

I've heard good things about http://www.getharvest.com/

Not tried it myself yet but will be giving the trial a whirl later.


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 09:19:24 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:19:24 +0200
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <493D37D0.90006@sanchothefat.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<493D37D0.90006@sanchothefat.com>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812080719j2b427075re5189a9fc9a990c9@mail.gmail.com>

> I've heard good things about http://www.getharvest.com/

I forgot to mention that I detest web-based tools. One simple reason
being that sometimes my connection fails! Now that I have a new router
it's a lot better, however.

Anyway I also like my vital data right here in my office, where I can
keep track of it, including backups etc.

But thanks!

OK, if one of these is really great, let me know. :)

lol


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 09:20:59 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:20:59 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Multiple but different skins with the same coding?
In-Reply-To: <C59A6A90-839D-4654-908D-6FA567A43230@geois.de>
References: <45BAA466-3109-4B9C-936E-B6113C3E0567@geois.de>
	<177c0a10812080424k181ad8afwf8a3cb3d90b6b0c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C59A6A90-839D-4654-908D-6FA567A43230@geois.de>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812080720o56306f95mb91e3ddc41f86e5a@mail.gmail.com>

> Sorry, forgot to mention that. Working with PHP 5 and Postgres on
> Linux/Apache. And using Smarty template.

I don't understand the question then--if you want a regional look to
be different, just use a different template. :)

Your business logic of course remains the same. Just add a bit more to
decide which template to use.


From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 09:27:54 2008
From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 07:27:54 -0800
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4eedb92a0812080727g3fe96df0v74df7adc702ab416@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Fred Jones <fredthejonester at gmail.com> wrote:

> Problem is I am moving more now into Linux and OS X and I am looking
> for a cross browser tool.

If you have Ruby on your systems, you can use punch --

DESCRIPTION
  punch is a k.i.s.s. tool for tracking the hours spent on various projects.
  it supports logging hours under a project name, adding notes about work
  done during that period, and several very simple reporting tools that
  operate over a window of time.

Grab it with `sudo gem install punch` and give it a whirl  :-)

FWIW,
-- 
Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com


From rob at sanchothefat.com  Mon Dec  8 09:38:44 2008
From: rob at sanchothefat.com (Robert O'Rourke)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:38:44 +0000
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812080719j2b427075re5189a9fc9a990c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>	<493D37D0.90006@sanchothefat.com>
	<177c0a10812080719j2b427075re5189a9fc9a990c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493D3F84.1090002@sanchothefat.com>

Fred Jones wrote:
>> I've heard good things about http://www.getharvest.com/
>>     
>
> I forgot to mention that I detest web-based tools. One simple reason
> being that sometimes my connection fails! Now that I have a new router
> it's a lot better, however.
>
> Anyway I also like my vital data right here in my office, where I can
> keep track of it, including backups etc.
>
> But thanks!
>
> OK, if one of these is really great, let me know. :)
>
> lol
>   

D'oh! righto, there's one other one I remember that was pretty good. 
It's a portable app called Task Coach although I found I'd have to do a 
fair chunk of development to get it to sync projects etc... for multiple 
users. If it's a personal tracker it's spot on - nice and simple.

http://portableapps.com/news/2008-11-17_-_task_coach_portable_0.71.3


From zachary.kent at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 11:30:54 2008
From: zachary.kent at gmail.com (Zachary Kent)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:30:54 -0500
Subject: [thelist] why web pages look having different color on
	different LCDs?
In-Reply-To: <493BAB31.7020504@realss.com>
References: <493BAB31.7020504@realss.com>
Message-ID: <2d59a5a30812080930o35ae0d8bta7c8e0b42d2b0c6c@mail.gmail.com>

My suggestion: buy one of the LCD calibration instruments from
DataColor http://spyder.datacolor.com.  This way you can be sure YOUR
colors are pure and the problem is with other people's monitors.

Zach

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:53 AM, Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com> wrote:
> I noticed this very long time ago: for some colleagues the web page
> background looks coral, for some looks yellow, and for some others look
> between coral and yellow. I know LCD doesn't always reproduce color the
> same, but I never worried about it because I am a web dev, which means I
> am only interested on the programming logic, e.g. in CMS and I don't
> care nor pick on my colors.
>
> But since recently I am exploring knowledge what a web designer career
> needs. I found it's important the customer sees color the way we want to
> represent. I cannot change the LCD of visitors, but I need to know how
> to make 'most' visitor gets the color we want them to see. Googling
> around bring me to the knowledge area of CMS, not the content management
> system I used to know, but "color management system". Further googling
> around and using wikipedia I only find a lot of in-depth article about
> ICC, color mapping etc and gets introduced to more and more complicated
> knowledge about color. e.g. some posts recommend me to read
> http://www.poynton.com/ColorFAQ.html which is complicated and with no
> picture example to give an intuitive illustration but rather gave a lot
> of formulas; definitely not readable to a web designer nor to a
> developer who have no interest/time to explore depth knowledge of how
> color is calculated. I just want to adjust color and see the result in
> the web browser, see it fit and save+commit, while being confident that
> most visitor also see the color matching as I made them.
>
> I also think I can just buy a new LCD, because color changes when LCD
> grow older. But again, in the LCD shop I discovered even in new LCD the
> color looks different from one to another.
>
> Thanks and sorry for the stupid question: looks like common knowledge
> but google like "color difference between monitors" didn't help.
>
> --
> Real Softservice
>
> Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
> Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang
>
> Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
> Mobile: 159 1111 7382
> http://www.realss.com
>
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>



-- 
Zachary Kent
148 Sterling Hill Road
Barre, VT 05641
(978) 296-4401


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 11:59:31 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:59:31 +0200
Subject: [thelist] My Eternal Quest for a better Time Tracker
In-Reply-To: <493D3F84.1090002@sanchothefat.com>
References: <177c0a10812080425n38c8fffao2c369fdca60e76ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<493D37D0.90006@sanchothefat.com>
	<177c0a10812080719j2b427075re5189a9fc9a990c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<493D3F84.1090002@sanchothefat.com>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812080959w31cffa67nd2599c0bb8b604d8@mail.gmail.com>

> D'oh! righto, there's one other one I remember that was pretty good.
> It's a portable app called Task Coach although I found I'd have to do a
> fair chunk of development to get it to sync projects etc... for multiple
> users. If it's a personal tracker it's spot on - nice and simple.
>
> http://portableapps.com/news/2008-11-17_-_task_coach_portable_0.71.3

Right on, man. This looks GREAT. I am running it now in Windows.

Thanks!!


From Ron.Luther at hp.com  Mon Dec  8 13:15:38 2008
From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:15:38 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Best (inexpensive) Windows "claymation" software
Message-ID: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B8655FC8@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Hi Gang,


The kids want to play with making some 'claymation' style stop-motion videos.

They are working on a Windows box and will not be converting to Linux.

Stop Motion Pro ($145) may be a bit too steep for their budget. Claymation 2.0 ($40) is probably affordable enough.  I've never used either and don't want to recommend anything that isn't any good.

Anybody playing with this kind of stuff?  Suggestions?


Thanks!
RonL.

(No, I am not going to lend them my Ubuntu Studio laptop.)


From chris at gn.apc.org  Mon Dec  8 14:20:31 2008
From: chris at gn.apc.org (Chris Booth)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:20:31 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Best (inexpensive) Windows "claymation" software
In-Reply-To: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B8655FC8@GVW0671EXC.amer
	icas.hpqcorp.net>
References: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B8655FC8@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Message-ID: <Zen-1L9man-0003mj-T0@smarthost02.mail.zen.net.uk>

Check out Monkeyjam 
(http://www.giantscreamingrobotmonkeys.com/monkeyjam/) which is free 
(free of charge but not open source). My 9 year old has used it to 
make some wee animations, and it seems to be used quite a bit by 
people who run animation workshops. From the website:
What's MonkeyJam?
MonkeyJam is a digital penciltest program. It is designed to let you 
capture images from a webcam, camcorder, or scanner and assemble them 
as separate frames of an animation. You can also import images and 
sound files already on your computer. Although it is designed for 
pencil and paper, MonkeyJam can also be used for StopMotion animation 
and has several features just for that. Movies created in MonkeyJam 
can be exported as AVI files.
And you can't really get a better domain name than that...

- Chris

At 19:15 08/12/2008, you wrote:
>The kids want to play with making some 'claymation' style stop-motion videos.
>
>They are working on a Windows box and will not be converting to Linux.
>
>Stop Motion Pro ($145) may be a bit too steep for their budget. 
>Claymation 2.0 ($40) is probably affordable enough.  I've never used 
>either and don't want to recommend anything that isn't any good.
>
>Anybody playing with this kind of stuff?  Suggestions?

-- 
Chris Booth
Web: http://www.araucaria.org.uk

Technically, we're not cows. We're aardvarks.


From Ron.Luther at hp.com  Mon Dec  8 14:30:10 2008
From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:30:10 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Best (inexpensive) Windows "claymation" software
In-Reply-To: <Zen-1L9man-0003mj-T0@smarthost02.mail.zen.net.uk>
References: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B8655FC8@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
	<Zen-1L9man-0003mj-T0@smarthost02.mail.zen.net.uk>
Message-ID: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B86560A6@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Chris Booth kindly suggested:

>>Check out Monkeyjam
>>It is designed to let you capture images from a webcam, camcorder,
>>or scanner and assemble them as separate frames of an animation.


Hi Chris,

That sounds exactly like what they were looking for!

Thanks much!   ;-)

RonL.


From zachary.kent at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 15:30:45 2008
From: zachary.kent at gmail.com (Zachary Kent)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:30:45 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Linking license?
In-Reply-To: <d75f7c38f6b28524788a3133056d63a9@d-e-a-f.ca>
References: <d75f7c38f6b28524788a3133056d63a9@d-e-a-f.ca>
Message-ID: <2d59a5a30812081330q5a8a5f42y84518d47658b9bff@mail.gmail.com>

> At my day job I have been asked to place a link to an online newspaper
> article on our public site.
> My question is regarding the licensing. I read the information on the
> newspaper site and they require payment if one wants a pdf version of the
> article for posting or if one would like the html version for hosting on
> one's site.
> No mention to licensing requirements for just linking.
> Is it still necessary (I remember that in the past some companies wouldn't
> allow others to link to their pages but I am not sure if this has changed)
> to require permission to link to a page on another site or cross linking
> doesn't require that?
>
> What is the consensus on this matter?

My wife is an attorney and I just asked her about this.  The bottom
line is that if you are a non-commercial entity, there are fair-usage
rights that protect you from copyright infringement, however since
your site is commercial you do not have the same protections.  In
times past, links were considered fair game but now even links are
being prosecuted as infringement, which doesn't make sense to my
techie mind.  I would consult an attorney for a final word or be frank
with your employer and tell them if they get a cease-and-desist
letter, they may want to heed it unless they have the cash to defend
in court.  Both of these options might cost more than the reprint
rights to the article which might be the better choice in the end.


From zachary.kent at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 15:01:21 2008
From: zachary.kent at gmail.com (Zachary Kent)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:01:21 -0500
Subject: [thelist] osCommerce
In-Reply-To: <493C3A8D.7020901@dottedi.biz>
References: <493C3A8D.7020901@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <2d59a5a30812081301y26599fdeoed7ef61d82e49a7e@mail.gmail.com>

Bob,

If osCommerce is a template-based application like other shopping
carts, you might be able to edit the templates and remove the quantity
fields, add to cart buttons, etc which would leave the products just
as they were.  I actually did this once with a different shopping cart
app.

Zach

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Bob Meetin <bobm at dottedi.biz> wrote:
> I have not worked with osCommerce (yet). A client wanna-be just emailed  me, asked if there is a way to disable the shopping cart / e-commerce functions and
> just leave the products there to view only. I know you can do this with some of the other e-commerce (yes I did hyphenate) solutions.  I don't see anything
> obvious in the admin panel of this install, probably 3-ish years old.
>
> Over, Bob
> --
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>



-- 
Zachary Kent
148 Sterling Hill Road
Barre, VT 05641
(978) 296-4401


From eccentric.one at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 18:31:27 2008
From: eccentric.one at gmail.com (Jeremy Weiss)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:31:27 -0600
Subject: [thelist] MySQL stored function looping problem
Message-ID: <493dbc60.060ec00a.1b45.3ce8@mx.google.com>

Okay, a while back I posted a question involving a very non-normalized
db table that I'm dealing with.
(http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20081117/196289.html)
I've made a bit of progress but I'm in new territory now. I've tried to
fully explain the problem, so this email is a bit long.

The advice I received last time was to break this troublesome field out
into its own table. So, with the help of others, I've managed to write
a couple of stored functions to assist with this task.

The field in question is pipe delimited so I have one stored function
that counts the number of | in the field and adds 1 to give me the
count. You can view this function at http://tinyurl.com/6dn7y5

Another function takes the property mls # and a position number as
input, and parses the pipe delimited field and returns the value in
that position. You can view this function at http://tinyurl.com/5cezeo

The final function takes the property mls number as input, uses it to
call the first function to get a count, then uses the mls # and the
count to loop through, calling the second function once for every value
in this field, then takes each value and inserts it and the mls number
into the new table. 

So far, so good. But, at this point we've only processed 1 of the 
15K+ listings. And I didn't really want to make that many calls from
a PHP script if I could avoid it. So I've gone back and modified the
final function to use a cursor to pull a list of all the mls numbers 
and then loop through them, doing all the above each time. 

The problem is, when I call the final function from Query Browser, 
it only inserts 103 records into the new table (from 9 
properties). So I threw a simple counter in the mix and it returns 
over 15K on the cursor loop. So it seems that it is looping like
it's suppose to, but something else isn't working. Trouble is, I'm
not sure how to debug it. You can view this function at 
http://tinyurl.com/6xpfub

Google wasn't much help on this one (or I'm not using
the right search phrase). So any and all guidance,
advice, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

-jeremy



From bobm at dottedi.biz  Mon Dec  8 20:33:03 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:33:03 -0700
Subject: [thelist] why web pages look having different color on
 different LCDs?
In-Reply-To: <200812071343.27514.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
References: <493BAB31.7020504@realss.com>	<1228654499.493bc7a3df12f@cfpress.co.uk>	<493BF9BD.50400@dottedi.biz>
	<200812071343.27514.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
Message-ID: <493DD8DF.3040408@dottedi.biz>

sbeam wrote:
> On Sunday 07 December 2008 11:28, Bob Meetin wrote:
>> If I move the monitor over to that other, Windows PC, the colors are as
>> they should be. What tool or application do I need to access, even
>> download, to correct this?  I don't see any screen setting under Display
>> that control the number or array of colors.
> 
> Sounds like the brightness/contrast/gamma is way off...
> http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html
> 
> This is more because of the different video cards in the two machines, not the 
> OS. Probably a good idea to calibrate the monitor anytime you move it anyway, 
> especially between machines - so make sure your black level and white level 
> is correct, and your color temp is right for your room.
> http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
> 
> But if you still want to tweak the linux box's settings, start here:
> http://www.linux.com/articles/113936
> 
> <tip type="design">
> keep your LCD monitor reasonably well calibrated at all times
> http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
> </tip>
> 
> enjoy,
> Sam

Solution on board!

My son has a brand new ACER 22" monitor. We tested his monitor with my PC/OS - but no diff.  So he pulled out a different monitor cable which he said was better 
and it worked. With a DVI vs VGA monitor cable #eeeeee came back to life. Solution = DVI monitor cable.
-- 
Bob Meetin
www.dottedi.biz
303-926-0167

Hook up with me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Plaxo Pulse and Bebo
or catch my blog at www.dottedi.biz/blog.php

Standards - you gotta love em - there are so many to choose from!


From zhangweiwu at realss.com  Mon Dec  8 20:57:49 2008
From: zhangweiwu at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:57:49 +0800
Subject: [thelist] why web pages look having different color on
 different LCDs?
In-Reply-To: <200812071343.27514.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
References: <493BAB31.7020504@realss.com>	<1228654499.493bc7a3df12f@cfpress.co.uk>	<493BF9BD.50400@dottedi.biz>
	<200812071343.27514.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
Message-ID: <493DDEAD.6090406@realss.com>

sbeam wrote:
> This is more because of the different video cards in the two machines, not the 
> OS. Probably a good idea to calibrate the monitor anytime you move it anyway, 
> especially between machines - so make sure your black level and white level 
> is correct, and your color temp is right for your room.
> http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
>   
After having learned the term "Monitor Calibration" I quickly found
corresponding tools for my Linux desktop:

monica
     Homepage:            http://www.pcbypaul.com/software/monica.html

xcalib
     Homepage:           
http://www.etg.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/web/doe/xcalib/



From pturmel-webdev at turmel.org  Mon Dec  8 21:26:10 2008
From: pturmel-webdev at turmel.org (Phil Turmel)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:26:10 -0500
Subject: [thelist] MySQL stored function looping problem
In-Reply-To: <493dbc60.060ec00a.1b45.3ce8@mx.google.com>
References: <493dbc60.060ec00a.1b45.3ce8@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <493DE552.2030200@turmel.org>

Jeremy Weiss wrote:
> Okay, a while back I posted a question involving a very non-normalized
> db table that I'm dealing with.
> (http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20081117/196289.html)
> I've made a bit of progress but I'm in new territory now. I've tried to
> fully explain the problem, so this email is a bit long.
> 
> The advice I received last time was to break this troublesome field out
> into its own table. So, with the help of others, I've managed to write
> a couple of stored functions to assist with this task.
> 
[snip /]

Hi Jeremy,

I think you've made this a little more complicated than necessary.  The
core of the normalization you are trying to perform is the parsing of
the pipe-delimited features column.  This is very much a scripting task
as opposed to a SQL task (not that it can't be done in SQL...)

In any case, I'd do something like this:

<?php
$cn = mysql_connect(....); // I'll leave the credentials for you...
$sql = "Select mls, features From Listings";
$res = mysql_query($sql, $cn);
if ($res === FALSE) {
  echo mysql_error($cn);
  exit;
}
while ($row = mysql_fetch_assoc($res)) {
  extract($row, EXTR_OVERWRITE);
  $featurelist = explode('|', $features);
  foreach ($featurelist as $fid) {
    if (strlen($fid1 = trim($fid))) {
      $isql = sprintf("Insert Into carmls_features (mls, fid) " .
        "Values ('%s', '%s')",
        mysql_escape_string($mls),
        mysql_escape_string($fid1));
      $ires = mysql_query($isql, $cn);
      if ($ires === FALSE) {
        echo mysql_error($cn);
        exit;
      }
    }
  }
}
?>

Yeah, there'll be a bunch of single-row inserts issued from PHP, but for
a one-time conversion script, I doubt you'll suffer too much.  You did
say there's only ~ 15K listings.  Figure 1ms per insert to estimate the
runtime.  (If I'm way off on that, I'd like to know what hardware you're
running on...)

HTH,

Phil


From eccentric.one at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 22:37:27 2008
From: eccentric.one at gmail.com (Jeremy Weiss)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:37:27 -0600
Subject: [thelist] MySQL stored function looping problem
In-Reply-To: <493DE552.2030200@turmel.org>
References: <493dbc60.060ec00a.1b45.3ce8@mx.google.com>
	<493DE552.2030200@turmel.org>
Message-ID: <493df608.070fc00a.1b6c.fffffc21@mx.google.com>

Phil Turmel wrote:

> I think you've made this a little more complicated than necessary. 

I do have a tendency of doing that. :(

> This is very much a scripting task as opposed to a 
> SQL task (not that it can't be done in SQL...)

I'm having a difficult time distinguishing where that line is.
How you tell the difference between the two?

> Yeah, there'll be a bunch of single-row inserts issued from PHP, but for
> a one-time conversion script, I doubt you'll suffer too much.  You did
> say there's only ~ 15K listings.  Figure 1ms per insert to estimate the
> runtime.  (If I'm way off on that, I'd like to know what hardware you're
> running on...)

I don't know if it changes anything, but this would be ran once daily, 
right after I pull the feed from the Realtor Assoc. It averages ~15K 
properties but that translates into ~450K inserts into the 
carmls_features table.

 I've never timed INSERTS on my server before, but you got me 
curious. So, I gave it a go using your code (which worked great,
btw) and here's what I saw:

453866 records inserted
total time 98.8076000008 seconds
average time per insert = 0.000217702141162 seconds

That's a lot faster than I thought it would be, but wouldn't it be
faster if it wasn't going back and forth between PHP and MySQL?


-jeremy




From bobm at dottedi.biz  Mon Dec  8 23:10:13 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:10:13 -0700
Subject: [thelist] ping technorati
Message-ID: <493DFDB5.5050707@dottedi.biz>

http://technorati.com/developers/ping/

I have a self-brew blog. It looks like I need to set it up to ping technorati.  The help doc shows the xml code I need to prep for the ping and the header info, 
but it does not actually tell me how to make the ping happen. This must be simple, but what do I do next?

Bob


From misterhaan at track7.org  Mon Dec  8 23:33:03 2008
From: misterhaan at track7.org (misterhaan)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:33:03 -0600
Subject: [thelist] ping technorati
In-Reply-To: <493DFDB5.5050707@dottedi.biz>
References: <493DFDB5.5050707@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <493E030F.7070505@track7.org>

you need to make an http request to technorati -- i did mine using curl 
from php.  the response will be in xml, which you can parse if you want.

Bob Meetin wrote:
> http://technorati.com/developers/ping/
>
> I have a self-brew blog. It looks like I need to set it up to ping technorati.  The help doc shows the xml code I need to prep for the ping and the header info, 
> but it does not actually tell me how to make the ping happen. This must be simple, but what do I do next?
>
> Bob
>   


From bobm at dottedi.biz  Tue Dec  9 07:59:57 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:59:57 -0700
Subject: [thelist] ping technorati
In-Reply-To: <493E030F.7070505@track7.org>
References: <493DFDB5.5050707@dottedi.biz> <493E030F.7070505@track7.org>
Message-ID: <493E79DD.6030009@dottedi.biz>

Thanks, I can write and add PHP to any of my forms, perhaps the function which publicizes the blog entry, but when it comes to curl and what you're suggesting, 
that's beyond me. Any chance you can send me some sample code and talk to where it needs to be implemented? I will also be setting up an RSS feed, but that's 
pretty straight forward (have done that before).

What gives here is that there are a number of blog/comment components built for Joomla (sorry Fred), but the better ones come with a commercial license, yet in 
the case of the one I spent the bucks on over the weekend, is awkward to use. Lots of bells/whistles/config options, some very good, but a bit funky with 
permissions/usage.  I will be looking at the commercial wordpress component later this week.

-Bob

  misterhaan wrote:
> you need to make an http request to technorati -- i did mine using curl 
> from php.  the response will be in xml, which you can parse if you want.
> 
> Bob Meetin wrote:
>> http://technorati.com/developers/ping/
>>
>> I have a self-brew blog. It looks like I need to set it up to ping technorati.  The help doc shows the xml code I need to prep for the ping and the header info, 
>> but it does not actually tell me how to make the ping happen. This must be simple, but what do I do next?
>>
>> Bob
>>   


-- 
Bob Meetin
www.dottedi.biz
303-926-0167

Hook up with me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Plaxo Pulse and Bebo
or catch my blog at www.dottedi.biz/blog.php

Standards - you gotta love em - there are so many to choose from!


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 08:08:17 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:08:17 +0200
Subject: [thelist] ping technorati
In-Reply-To: <493E79DD.6030009@dottedi.biz>
References: <493DFDB5.5050707@dottedi.biz> <493E030F.7070505@track7.org>
	<493E79DD.6030009@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812090608s1f40ed49g876ab8538d4dbb8b@mail.gmail.com>

> What gives here is that there are a number of blog/comment components built for Joomla (sorry Fred)

How can I forgive you? You have used the J word in public!

> but the better ones come with a commercial license, yet in
> the case of the one I spent the bucks on over the weekend, is awkward to use. Lots of bells/whistles/config options, some very good, but a bit funky with
> permissions/usage.  I will be looking at the commercial wordpress component later this week.

I will refrain from saying that this type of situation wouldn't happen
had you used the big D.

'nuf said.

lol


From bobm at dottedi.biz  Tue Dec  9 10:13:51 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:13:51 -0700
Subject: [thelist] spammers / IP address / specific or wildcard match
Message-ID: <493E993F.1090302@dottedi.biz>

I have a couple forms I have intentionally left open to capture spammer IP addresses. I know there are supposedly agencies where this stuff can be reported as 
well as adding the specific IP address to a deny list, but I'm wondering how much good this does as IP addresses change and such. Fact is, if a really small 
local business is getting spammed by an IP tracked to a different land I could probably add some sort of wildcard to the deny as in:

if 68.63.83.12
then perhaps anything like: 68.63.83.

Does this work?

Bob


From anthony at baratta.com  Tue Dec  9 10:30:47 2008
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:30:47 -0800
Subject: [thelist] spammers / IP address / specific or wildcard match
Message-ID: <474610b16b26ecebe7aaefebb4687a92@baratta.com>

I think you are better off using a Blackhole service and checking the IP against that list.

http://spamlinks.net/filter-dnsbl-lists.htm

-----Original message-----
From: Bob Meetin bobm at dottedi.biz
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:13:51 -0800
To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] spammers / IP address / specific or wildcard match

> I have a couple forms I have intentionally left open to capture spammer IP addresses. I know there are supposedly agencies where this stuff can be reported as 
> well as adding the specific IP address to a deny list, but I'm wondering how much good this does as IP addresses change and such. Fact is, if a really small 
> local business is getting spammed by an IP tracked to a different land I could probably add some sort of wildcard to the deny as in:
> 
> if 68.63.83.12
> then perhaps anything like: 68.63.83.
> 
> Does this work?
> 
> Bob
> -- 
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
> Workers of the Web, evolt ! 


From barry at burnthebook.co.uk  Tue Dec  9 10:36:29 2008
From: barry at burnthebook.co.uk (Barry Woolgar)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:36:29 -0000
Subject: [thelist] spammers / IP address / specific or wildcard match
In-Reply-To: <493E993F.1090302@dottedi.biz>
References: <493E993F.1090302@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <002e01c95a1c$4b9f6050$e2de20f0$@co.uk>

Hi Bob

> if a really small local business is getting spammed... I could probably
add some sort of wildcard to the deny 
> Does this work?

I'd be interested to know the answer. However, one problem that springs to
mind is that spamming a form takes just one 'request' (after they've scraped
your form from a different IP) would it be possible to for spammers to spoof
their IP address (as they wouldn't care about the response)? 

If so, denying entire IP ranges could potentially be used against you to
block valid visitors.

Does anyone know if it is actually possible to spoof an IP in this manner?

Barry



From chris at gettheedgeonline.com  Tue Dec  9 12:15:16 2008
From: chris at gettheedgeonline.com (Chris Dempsey)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:15:16 -0000
Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
In-Reply-To: <844ACF16793548039CF24B85B9385DBD@theedge.local>
References: <493E993F.1090302@dottedi.biz>
	<844ACF16793548039CF24B85B9385DBD@theedge.local>
Message-ID: <2B56E445B5CFF24FA32E2F4FB0112F220E2AA6@sbserver.theedge.local>

Hi All,

I have a small javascript that I want to show/hide an area depending on
what radio button a user selects:

	http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm 

It works fine in FF3 but IE7 throws an 'object expected' error.  I think
it has something to do with the getElementById calls and IE confusing
the name and id properties of the elements in question.

Can anyone take a look at the page and suggest what I would need to do
to make this work in IE as well as FF?  I've spent a while on it and
with my limited knowledge of javascript have exhausted the Google line
of enquiry.

Thanks,

Chris

ps. Please ignore the dodgy code layout, I've been messing with it
quickly while testing...


From symeon at systasis.com  Tue Dec  9 12:29:35 2008
From: symeon at systasis.com (=?utf-8?Q?Symeon=20Charalabides?=)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:29:35 +0000
Subject: [thelist]
	=?utf-8?q?IE7_Javascript_-_FF3_is_fine=2C_IE_throws_err?=
	=?utf-8?q?or?=
Message-ID: <20081209182935.1435.qmail@station187.com>

Hi Chriss,

Have you tried taking out the HTML comments in the middle of your JS code, i.e. the two lines:

-->
<!-- used for selecting email new/existing

I feel it may have something to do with them.

Cheers,

Symeon Charalabides (cosmopolite trainee)
-----------------------------------------
http://www.systasis.com


>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Chris Dempsey <chris at gettheedgeonline.com>
>  Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
>  Sent: 09 Dec '08 18:15
>  
>  Hi All,
>  
>  I have a small javascript that I want to show/hide an area depending on
>  what radio button a user selects:
>  
>  http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm
>  
>  It works fine in FF3 but IE7 throws an 'object expected' error.??I think
>  it has something to do with the getElementById calls and IE confusing
>  the name and id properties of the elements in question.
>  
>  Can anyone take a look at the page and suggest what I would need to do
>  to make this work in IE as well as FF???I've spent a while on it and
>  with my limited knowledge of javascript have exhausted the Google line
>  of enquiry.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Chris
>  
>  ps. Please ignore the dodgy code layout, I've been messing with it
>  quickly while testing...
>  --
>  
>  * * Please support the community that supports you.??* *
>  http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>  
>  For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
>  and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
>  Workers of the Web, evolt !
>  


From Sales at medes.net  Tue Dec  9 14:39:35 2008
From: Sales at medes.net (M E Duerden Electrical Services)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:39:35 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Displaying a ursl content with just a like
Message-ID: <493ED787.2020507@medes.net>

Hello,

I am trying to display the content of a url without using the whole of
the source code, so that if the page is updated so is my display of it.

Much like you would display an image i.e. <img src="URL"/> but I need to
display the full page not just an image from it.

Any ideas?

Martyn



From Sales at medes.net  Tue Dec  9 14:49:50 2008
From: Sales at medes.net (M E Duerden Electrical Services)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:49:50 +0000
Subject: [thelist] (take 2) Displaying a url's content with just a link
Message-ID: <493ED9EE.7010307@medes.net>



Hello,

I am trying to display the content of a url without using the whole of
the source code, so that if the page is updated so is my display of it.

Much like you would display an image i.e. <img src="URL"/> but I need to
display the full page not just an image from it.

Any ideas?

Martyn



From matt at camadro.com  Tue Dec  9 14:44:34 2008
From: matt at camadro.com (Matt McKeon)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:44:34 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Displaying a ursl content with just a like
In-Reply-To: <493ED787.2020507@medes.net>
References: <493ED787.2020507@medes.net>
Message-ID: <493ED8B2.4040302@camadro.com>

M E Duerden Electrical Services wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am trying to display the content of a url without using the whole of
> the source code, so that if the page is updated so is my display of it.
>
> Much like you would display an image i.e. <img src="URL"/> but I need to
> display the full page not just an image from it.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Martyn
>
>   
I think an <iframe> <http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_iframe.asp> is
what you're after.


HTH
-Matt


From jason.handby at corestar.co.uk  Tue Dec  9 15:16:45 2008
From: jason.handby at corestar.co.uk (Jason Handby)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:16:45 -0000
Subject: [thelist] (take 2) Displaying a url's content with just a link
In-Reply-To: <493ED9EE.7010307@medes.net>
References: <493ED9EE.7010307@medes.net>
Message-ID: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF01FFF22D@exch-be12.exchange.local>

> Hello,
> 
> I am trying to display the content of a url without using the whole of
> the source code, so that if the page is updated so is my display of
it.
> 
> Much like you would display an image i.e. <img src="URL"/> but I need
> to
> display the full page not just an image from it.
> 
> Any ideas?

IFRAME? http://www.w3schools.com/TAGS/tag_iframe.asp



Jason



From Sales at medes.net  Tue Dec  9 15:32:21 2008
From: Sales at medes.net (M E Duerden Electrical Services)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:32:21 +0000
Subject: [thelist] (take 2) Displaying a url's content with just a link
In-Reply-To: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF01FFF22D@exch-be12.exchange.local>
References: <493ED9EE.7010307@medes.net>
	<9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF01FFF22D@exch-be12.exchange.local>
Message-ID: <493EE3E5.30708@medes.net>

Cheers guys, It seems a IFRAME would work but unfortunately I am not 
allowed to use it, I am trying to re do an advert I had on eBay my 
previous advert was basically my index.html page with the java script 
etc however every time I updated the site I had to up update the advert 
aswell, ebay are quite restrictive with what html they allow.

Cheers

Martyn

Jason Handby wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am trying to display the content of a url without using the whole of
>> the source code, so that if the page is updated so is my display of
>>     
> it.
>   
>> Much like you would display an image i.e. <img src="URL"/> but I need
>> to
>> display the full page not just an image from it.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>     
>
> IFRAME? http://www.w3schools.com/TAGS/tag_iframe.asp
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>   


From ekm at seastorm.com  Tue Dec  9 20:50:48 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:50:48 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Kevin Kelly on the future of the cloud
Message-ID: <493F2E88.2090809@seastorm.com>

Wired founder Kevin Kelly has been giving talks on where he sees the web 
going over the next several years.
http://blip.tv/file/1441210/

Kind of showing how the web has kind of become the nervous system of 
globalization. As if the whole world is this jellyfish-like creature 
developing a primitive nervous system.

In another version of this talk he says:
"The internet is the most reliable machine ever made.  It's made from 
imperfect, unreliable parts, connected together, to make the most 
reliable thing we have."

Erika

<tip type="female web designers" author="Erika">

25 Hot Female Web Designers
http://www.leemunroe.com/25-hot-female-web-designers/

</tip>





From mwarden at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 22:10:40 2008
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:10:40 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Kevin Kelly on the future of the cloud
In-Reply-To: <493F2E88.2090809@seastorm.com>
References: <493F2E88.2090809@seastorm.com>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430812092010g36a339bdr646ffe93fcdc74f9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Erika <ekm at seastorm.com> wrote:
> Wired founder Kevin Kelly has been giving talks on where he sees the web
> going over the next several years.
> http://blip.tv/file/1441210/
>
> Kind of showing how the web has kind of become the nervous system of
> globalization. As if the whole world is this jellyfish-like creature
> developing a primitive nervous system.

My beef with the "where the web will go" pipe dreams is that they are
implying that the current web will no longer exist. But if you listen
to them, that's not really even what they are saying. They are saying
that there are new capabilities that will create something
fundamentally different from what the current web is. That doesn't
remove all the reasons that the current web is what it is; the current
web is not going anywhere. But saying "hey, here's some cool new stuff
you can do" doesn't buy you omniscience. For that, you need something
like "I know where will the web go in 6500 days!!"

I wonder if the flying cars we're getting by the year 2000 will be
connected to this new web, along with my 24-hr non-invasive body
probes that automatically adjust the amount of healthcare tax deducted
from my paycheck based on how much exercise I did that day.

"If you're producing some information and it's not web-ized, it's not
someway online and related and shared to everything else, it doesn't
count."

So, hey, if blip.tv hadn't posted this video on the web, would his
talk have "counted"? Would this statement not have counted, which
would mean the talk *would* have counted, in which case it wouldn't
have counted? Oh my.

And certainly the coordinated moves in the global stock markets are a
reflection of the web, not the fact that the most of the world
standardizes on the US Dollar, holds significant US debt, is highly
dependent on US consumption rates, has its confidence in the
protection of its trade routes connected to deployed forces of the US
military, has large portions of US companies in their countries
employing their citizens and paying taxes to their governments, has
significant funds invested in the US.[1] No, it's not that. It's the
fact that I can access perezhilton.com from Uganda.

And I replayed that portion about "Socialism 2.0" about 7 times and I
still don't get what he's trying to say. He implies he doesn't want to
conjure the "social baggage" around the term, but then why didn't he
just call it small-s "socialism"? He called it "Socialism 2.0" --
Socialism, the next version -- for a reason, and I really don't get
it.

Wikipedia isn't "Socialism". Anyone can make an edit to a wikipedia
page, but if it's not beneficial, it won't last. How do you know if
it's beneficial? Because it either lasted or didn't last. Does this
sound familiar to anyone? Wikipedia isn't centrally administered; it's
fully competitive.[2]

This kind of stuff fires me up. It's a lot of floaty talk with very
little insight. And the attempt to politicize the talk is just bizarre
and out of place.

I'm debating whether I owe a tip for this...

These simply are not new ideas. There's the old visual presentation
web, and we realized a long time ago that we needed to separate data
and presentation (it's just that we keep coming up with new reasons
why). What can you do with data? You can have multiple presentations,
you can integrate systems, you can communicate across devices, you can
generate knowledge. To talk about a cloud -- a global machine
supporting every bit of every life, with the global markets moving in
a coordinated heartbeat... it's poetic, but not very useful or real.
We are just getting better and better at the same old stuff. That
isn't poetic, but it is real, and I still think it's exciting.

Didn't mean to pick on your link, Erika. I'm sure the people on this
list have some pretty interesting ideas about where the Web is going.
Perhaps we could discuss...


[1] no, not trying to start any political flame wars; just giving
possible examples of market interconnectedness outside of the web
[2] yes, there are exceptions; not the point

-- 
Matt Warden
Cincinnati, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From chris at gettheedgeonline.com  Wed Dec 10 02:30:41 2008
From: chris at gettheedgeonline.com (Chris Dempsey)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:30:41 -0000
Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
In-Reply-To: <929A053981C54F0DBBC58E059273CCEB@theedge.local>
References: <929A053981C54F0DBBC58E059273CCEB@theedge.local>
Message-ID: <2B56E445B5CFF24FA32E2F4FB0112F220E2ABE@sbserver.theedge.local>

Symeon - genius, thank you!  Can't believe I didn't see that...

Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Charalabides
Sent: 09 December 2008 18:31
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist]IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error

Hi Chriss,

Have you tried taking out the HTML comments in the middle of your JS code, i.e. the two lines:

-->
<!-- used for selecting email new/existing

I feel it may have something to do with them.

Cheers,

Symeon Charalabides (cosmopolite trainee)
-----------------------------------------
http://www.systasis.com


>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Chris Dempsey <chris at gettheedgeonline.com>
>  Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
>  Sent: 09 Dec '08 18:15
>  
>  Hi All,
>  
>  I have a small javascript that I want to show/hide an area depending on
>  what radio button a user selects:
>  
>  http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm
>  
>  It works fine in FF3 but IE7 throws an 'object expected' error.??I think
>  it has something to do with the getElementById calls and IE confusing
>  the name and id properties of the elements in question.
>  
>  Can anyone take a look at the page and suggest what I would need to do
>  to make this work in IE as well as FF???I've spent a while on it and
>  with my limited knowledge of javascript have exhausted the Google line
>  of enquiry.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Chris
>  
>  ps. Please ignore the dodgy code layout, I've been messing with it
>  quickly while testing...
>  --
>  
>  * * Please support the community that supports you.??* *
>  http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>  
>  For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
>  and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
>  Workers of the Web, evolt !
>  
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

From beertastic at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 04:18:07 2008
From: beertastic at gmail.com (Tris)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:18:07 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Image with cynamic text rollover... back to 'basics'! ; -p
Message-ID: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all..

I've been asked to add a rollover to a site.
all good. but it's a little more complicated and i've not touched
rollovers in a while..

We've got a series of images being called from a DB.
The client now wants to put each images tagline over the image, when
rolled over.
AND to add an opaque layer to teh text.

for example, if the image is of a tree, then roll over the tree and
have it go slightly white (opaque layer) with the words. 'A tree' over
the top nicely positioned in the middle..

Each image has it's own tagline....

I'm reading about PHP's GD library at the mo.. as a way of simply
creating the second image, as do a simple rollover replacement..
but what I'd liek to do it to use CSS and jacasvript to dynamically
put a layer on top..

Google is not my friend today... has anyone doen this before?


From morrison.ben at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 04:25:55 2008
From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:25:55 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Image with cynamic text rollover... back to 'basics'!
	; -p
In-Reply-To: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6073aef90812100225s52d15cd7x1786244d213999cf@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Tris <beertastic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all..
>
> I've been asked to add a rollover to a site.
> all good. but it's a little more complicated and i've not touched
> rollovers in a while..

I'm sure you asked about this last week?



You don't have to worry about IE 6 then? It Doesn't support PSEUDO
class on anything other than an anchor.

If you do, then you are going to require some JS - simple JS to add an
extra class on mouseover, unless you can be very clever with your CSS.
Also as on a previous thread it maybe easier to use a
background-color, or change the code so the opacity is not inherited.

   <style>

   .imagePlaceHolder {
    position: relative;
    width: 100px;
    height: 100px;
    display:block;
   }

   .imagePlaceHolder span {
       position: absolute;
       left:-999em;
   }
   .imagePlaceHolder:hover span, .ieExtraClass {
        left:0;
        bottom:0;
        display:block;
        width:100%;
        background-color: #F00;
        color:#fff;
        filter:alpha(opacity=50);
        opacity:.5;
   }

   </style>
   </head>
<body>

   </head>
   <body>

   <div id="rolloverPlaceHolder">
       <a class="imagePlaceHolder">
           <img
src="http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/features/d/content/images/2008/12/02/human_nuclear_button_afp_400x260.jpg"
width="100" height="100" style="background:#ccf" />
           <span>Over lay text</span>
       </a>
   </div>
</body>
-- 
Ben Morrison


From beertastic at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 04:45:22 2008
From: beertastic at gmail.com (Tris)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:45:22 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Image with cynamic text rollover... back to 'basics'!
	; -p
In-Reply-To: <6073aef90812100225s52d15cd7x1786244d213999cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>
	<6073aef90812100225s52d15cd7x1786244d213999cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b20a7490812100245n333ab198g91e4380d66959a24@mail.gmail.com>

I did?
T be honest, I've been sick as a dog..
I'll call it man flu, but I've had to work throgh it and I've been
makign stupid mistakes..
sorry to all if I've been repeating myself..
my head... and sinuses are not happy at the mo :-(

anyhoo, Cheers Ben, I at m reading now...

2008/12/10 ben morrison <morrison.ben at gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Tris <beertastic at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all..
>>
>> I've been asked to add a rollover to a site.
>> all good. but it's a little more complicated and i've not touched
>> rollovers in a while..
>
> I'm sure you asked about this last week?
>
>
>
> You don't have to worry about IE 6 then? It Doesn't support PSEUDO
> class on anything other than an anchor.
>
> If you do, then you are going to require some JS - simple JS to add an
> extra class on mouseover, unless you can be very clever with your CSS.
> Also as on a previous thread it maybe easier to use a
> background-color, or change the code so the opacity is not inherited.
>
>   <style>
>
>   .imagePlaceHolder {
>    position: relative;
>    width: 100px;
>    height: 100px;
>    display:block;
>   }
>
>   .imagePlaceHolder span {
>       position: absolute;
>       left:-999em;
>   }
>   .imagePlaceHolder:hover span, .ieExtraClass {
>        left:0;
>        bottom:0;
>        display:block;
>        width:100%;
>        background-color: #F00;
>        color:#fff;
>        filter:alpha(opacity=50);
>        opacity:.5;
>   }
>
>   </style>
>   </head>
> <body>
>
>   </head>
>   <body>
>
>   <div id="rolloverPlaceHolder">
>       <a class="imagePlaceHolder">
>           <img
> src="http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/features/d/content/images/2008/12/02/human_nuclear_button_afp_400x260.jpg"
> width="100" height="100" style="background:#ccf" />
>           <span>Over lay text</span>
>       </a>
>   </div>
> </body>
> --
> Ben Morrison
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>



-- 
"The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't do anything"

Give a man a fish and he'll feed himself for a day.
Give a man a religion and he'll starve to death praying for a fish.
Anon

`We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.`
Kurt Vonnegut

`When a person can no longer laugh at himself, it is time for others
to laugh at him.`
Thomas Szasz


From pturmel-webdev at turmel.org  Wed Dec 10 06:43:52 2008
From: pturmel-webdev at turmel.org (Phil Turmel)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:43:52 -0500
Subject: [thelist] MySQL stored function looping problem
In-Reply-To: <493df608.070fc00a.1b6c.fffffc21@mx.google.com>
References: <493dbc60.060ec00a.1b45.3ce8@mx.google.com>	<493DE552.2030200@turmel.org>
	<493df608.070fc00a.1b6c.fffffc21@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <493FB988.6010703@turmel.org>

[Sorry for the slow response... no signal / no internet all day yesterday]

Jeremy Weiss wrote:
> Phil Turmel wrote:
> 
>> I think you've made this a little more complicated than necessary. 
> 
> I do have a tendency of doing that. :(
> 

Heh.  "This is a cool hammer!  That sure looks like a nail!"

>> This is very much a scripting task as opposed to a 
>> SQL task (not that it can't be done in SQL...)
> 
> I'm having a difficult time distinguishing where that line is.
> How you tell the difference between the two?
> 

The line varies with circumstances and languages involved, but in the
SQL vs. script case I usually ask myself the following questions:

Do I need a stored proc to enforce critical business rules?
Do I need to hold a lock for the duration of the procedure? (I *really*
don't want a lock waiting for the network)
Can I structure a stored proc for straight through evaluation? (I hate
loops in SQL)
Which language has the better tools for the task at hand? (i.e. PHP's
'explode' function)

>> Yeah, there'll be a bunch of single-row inserts issued from PHP, but for
>> a one-time conversion script, I doubt you'll suffer too much.  You did
>> say there's only ~ 15K listings.  Figure 1ms per insert to estimate the
>> runtime.  (If I'm way off on that, I'd like to know what hardware you're
>> running on...)
> 
> I don't know if it changes anything, but this would be ran once daily, 
> right after I pull the feed from the Realtor Assoc. It averages ~15K 
> properties but that translates into ~450K inserts into the 
> carmls_features table.
> 
>  I've never timed INSERTS on my server before, but you got me 
> curious. So, I gave it a go using your code (which worked great,
> btw) and here's what I saw:
> 
> 453866 records inserted
> total time 98.8076000008 seconds
> average time per insert = 0.000217702141162 seconds
> 

Nice.  Is this with or without an existing key on mls,fid?

> That's a lot faster than I thought it would be, but wouldn't it be
> faster if it wasn't going back and forth between PHP and MySQL?
> 

If PHP is on the same server as MySQL, I've never seen any significant
difference.  If different boxes, even on a gigabit lan, going back and
forth will certainly slow you down.

However, MySQL does support multiple values per insert statement, so the
round-trips could be reduced with modest additional script complexity.

> 
> -jeremy
> 
> 

HTH,

Phil


From sarahwbs at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 08:42:16 2008
From: sarahwbs at gmail.com (Sarah Adams)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:42:16 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Joomla q: how to apply different styles or template to
	each category
Message-ID: <493FD548.90303@gmail.com>

I'm currently building a site using Joomla (client's choice). The site
has several categories which each need to have their own look, i.e.
different colours, header image, etc. There are also three basic layouts
for the pages, something like this:

|    |             |    |
|    |             |    |
|    |    |    |   |    |
|    |    |    |   |    |
|    |    |    |   |    |


|    |             |    |
|    |             |    |
|    |      |      |    |
|    |      |      |    |
|    |      |      |    |


|    |       |       |
|    |       |       |
|    |       |       |
|    |       |       |
|    |       |       |

The first column contains the menu, so not a problem, but the rest of
the page is the article layout. The client understands they'll have to
start each page by going in to HTML mode to enter some basic container
divs for their columns (which will be styled appropriately in the
template css). Problem is that one of these layouts is not as wide as
the others and because the outer div that holds the article is part of
the template, I can't change it's width by styling the divs in the
article itself.

So what I'm looking at now is having to set up a whole bunch of
templates, 2 or 3 for each category in the site in order to cover all
the combinations of colour and article layout. To me this seems like
major overkill and a maintenance nightmare, as well as a huge PITA for
the client who has to set the template manually for each and every
article. Since there's no way in Joomla to assign a template to a
category, I wanted to set up a conditional statement in my template so
that rather than use a whole new template for each category, a different
stylesheet would be included based on the category id, defining only the
colours and such that change between categories. However it would seem
that the category id isn't defined in the scope of
/templates/mytemplate/index.php. I'm pretty sure that I can work around
that, but when I asked for help with how to go about this on the Joomla
forums, they just told me to do it how it's "supposed" to be done.
Searching their documentation is an exercise in frustration (or sheer
futility given how much is just not there).

Can someone point me in the right direction for how to do a lookup of
the category id from within index.php? Or does someone have a better
suggestion of how to handle this issue?

-- 
sarah adams
my thoughts: http://twitter.com/sarahwbs
my son: http://clarkeadams.com
my work: http://sarah.designshift.com


From chris at gettheedgeonline.com  Wed Dec 10 10:06:54 2008
From: chris at gettheedgeonline.com (Chris Dempsey)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:06:54 -0000
Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine,
	IE throws error - a new one
In-Reply-To: <C212BAA89D21465ABEDCCFDD2417302D@theedge.local>
References: <929A053981C54F0DBBC58E059273CCEB@theedge.local>
	<C212BAA89D21465ABEDCCFDD2417302D@theedge.local>
Message-ID: <2B56E445B5CFF24FA32E2F4FB0112F220E2AE6@sbserver.theedge.local>

I didn't check the script fully after removing the HTML comments... 

If you select the New user radio button the form element names are changed as intended but if you then change it back to existing it throws an error: document.form1.fldTitlea2 is null or not an object.  Same with the email address radio buttons but I'm sure it will be the same error so when one is fixed so is the other.

Anyone able to take a look and suggest what I've done wrong?

http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm

Thanks,

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Chris Dempsey
Sent: 10 December 2008 08:46
To: Symeon Charalabides; thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error

Symeon - genius, thank you!  Can't believe I didn't see that...

Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Charalabides
Sent: 09 December 2008 18:31
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist]IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error

Hi Chriss,

Have you tried taking out the HTML comments in the middle of your JS code, i.e. the two lines:

-->
<!-- used for selecting email new/existing

I feel it may have something to do with them.

Cheers,

Symeon Charalabides (cosmopolite trainee)
-----------------------------------------
http://www.systasis.com


>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Chris Dempsey <chris at gettheedgeonline.com>
>  Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
>  Sent: 09 Dec '08 18:15
>  
>  Hi All,
>  
>  I have a small javascript that I want to show/hide an area depending on
>  what radio button a user selects:
>  
>  http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm
>  
>  It works fine in FF3 but IE7 throws an 'object expected' error.??I think
>  it has something to do with the getElementById calls and IE confusing
>  the name and id properties of the elements in question.
>  
>  Can anyone take a look at the page and suggest what I would need to do
>  to make this work in IE as well as FF???I've spent a while on it and
>  with my limited knowledge of javascript have exhausted the Google line
>  of enquiry.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Chris
>  
>  ps. Please ignore the dodgy code layout, I've been messing with it
>  quickly while testing...
>  --
>  
>  * * Please support the community that supports you.??* *
>  http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>  
>  For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
>  and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
>  Workers of the Web, evolt !
>  
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

From bobm at dottedi.biz  Wed Dec 10 10:34:47 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:34:47 -0700
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
Message-ID: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>

Is the current trend towards remaining somewhat conservative and sticking with designing for 800x600 or more liberally 1024x768 monitors?

I'm personally not partial to horizontal scrolling, so when I develop a fixed width site I have held conservative. Is that becoming ancient history?


-- 
Bob Meetin
www.dottedi.biz
303-926-0167

Hook up with me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Plaxo Pulse and Bebo
or catch my blog at www.dottedi.biz/blog.php

Standards - you gotta love em - there are so many to choose from!


From marathon.durandal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 11:24:32 2008
From: marathon.durandal at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:24:32 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Linking license?
In-Reply-To: <2d59a5a30812081330q5a8a5f42y84518d47658b9bff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d75f7c38f6b28524788a3133056d63a9@d-e-a-f.ca>
	<2d59a5a30812081330q5a8a5f42y84518d47658b9bff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081210172432.GA16741@PPC.sweetpig.dyndns.org>

On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 04:30:45PM -0500, Zachary Kent wrote:
> > At my day job I have been asked to place a link to an online newspaper
> > article on our public site.
> > My question is regarding the licensing. I read the information on the
> > newspaper site and they require payment if one wants a pdf version of the
> > article for posting or if one would like the html version for hosting on
> > one's site.
> > No mention to licensing requirements for just linking.
> > Is it still necessary (I remember that in the past some companies wouldn't
> > allow others to link to their pages but I am not sure if this has changed)
> > to require permission to link to a page on another site or cross linking
> > doesn't require that?
> >
> > What is the consensus on this matter?
> 
> My wife is an attorney and I just asked her about this.  The bottom
> line is that if you are a non-commercial entity, there are fair-usage
> rights that protect you from copyright infringement, however since
> your site is commercial you do not have the same protections.  In
> times past, links were considered fair game but now even links are
> being prosecuted as infringement, which doesn't make sense to my
> techie mind.  I would consult an attorney for a final word or be frank
> with your employer and tell them if they get a cease-and-desist
> letter, they may want to heed it unless they have the cash to defend
> in court.  Both of these options might cost more than the reprint
> rights to the article which might be the better choice in the end.

Attorney's are usually conservative when offering advice. It's standard
practise even for commercial entities to copy a snippet (teaser) if you will
with the URL going back to the original website in order to read the entire
story. Just look at all the blogs run by magazines|newspapers that do the
this, without issue (Tech Crunch, Valleywag etc.). Can your wife offer any
precedents ?

-- 
Best Regards,

Steve 
(my website):: http://stephen-allen.office-on-the.net 

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

"The true  measure of a  man is how he treats  someone who can  do him
absolutely no good." 
	      	     -- Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 13:59:22 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:59:22 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812101159h3d97ed08t71de5e74cbf5e2d4@mail.gmail.com>

>  I'm wondering if this situation is
> affecting people like us also.

I just got my answer from the Dean of my alma mater:

=======================
Without a doubt, the State of Ohio is experiencing one of the most
critical periods in its economic history. We, as Ohio residents, know
that better than anyone. More importantly, so do our in-state
students.

As the economy slows, Ohio State undergraduate students who come from
in-state families find themselves taking on more and more debt or
forgoing their educations altogether.

The University has made significant efforts to reduce operating costs
and hold tuition constant however, as the State of Ohio reduces Higher
Education support, it becomes even more difficult to maintain such a
balance.
=======================

After that he asks for money. :)

F


From st.schwarzer at geois.de  Wed Dec 10 14:07:10 2008
From: st.schwarzer at geois.de (Stefan Schwarzer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:07:10 +0100
Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book recommendation
Message-ID: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>

Hi there,

after a couple of years of semi-professional PHP programming, I  
finally try to understand more than the concepts of OO programming in  
PHP. Thus, I read through "PHP Objects, Patterns, and Practice" from  
Matt Zandstra. Although pretty interesting, I think that the  
beginner's part is a bit short - at least for my humble brain. Classes  
and Objects, ok. Constants and abstract classes, ?a va. But  
Interfaces? Final Classes? Interceptors? Gush, this needs more  
coverage for my understanding.

Can anyone recommend me some literature which expends this subject not  
only a little bit but much more?

Thanks for any advice!

  ____________________________________________________________________

   Stefan Schwarzer

   Lean Back and Relax - Enjoy some Nature Photography
   http://photoblog.la-famille-schwarzer.de

   Appetite for Global Data? UNEP GEO Data Portal:
   http://geodata.grid.unep.ch
   ____________________________________________________________________








From kipper_timmins at live.co.uk  Wed Dec 10 14:24:09 2008
From: kipper_timmins at live.co.uk (Kevin Timmins)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:24:09 +0000
Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book
 recommendation
In-Reply-To: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>
References: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>
Message-ID: <BAY109-W1358178C471F42DAC1CD45DDFB0@phx.gbl>


a website you may find very useful if i remember the address correctly is http://www.hudzilla.org/ it is a free online wiki/book, and i have to say seems to be very useful. saves you buying a book, and gives you all the info you will need as far as i have read.
hope this helps
kipper

> From: st.schwarzer at geois.de
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:07:10 +0100
> Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book recommendation
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> after a couple of years of semi-professional PHP programming, I  
> finally try to understand more than the concepts of OO programming in  
> PHP. Thus, I read through "PHP Objects, Patterns, and Practice" from  
> Matt Zandstra. Although pretty interesting, I think that the  
> beginner's part is a bit short - at least for my humble brain. Classes  
> and Objects, ok. Constants and abstract classes, ?a va. But  
> Interfaces? Final Classes? Interceptors? Gush, this needs more  
> coverage for my understanding.
> 
> Can anyone recommend me some literature which expends this subject not  
> only a little bit but much more?
> 
> Thanks for any advice!
> 
>   ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>    Stefan Schwarzer
> 
>    Lean Back and Relax - Enjoy some Nature Photography
>    http://photoblog.la-famille-schwarzer.de
> 
>    Appetite for Global Data? UNEP GEO Data Portal:
>    http://geodata.grid.unep.ch
>    ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
> Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

_________________________________________________________________
Are you a PC?? Upload your PC story and show the world 
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/

From evolt at markgroen.com  Wed Dec 10 14:39:23 2008
From: evolt at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:39:23 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <200812101239.23211.evolt@markgroen.com>

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 08:34:47 Bob Meetin wrote:
> Is the current trend towards remaining somewhat conservative and sticking
> with designing for 800x600 or more liberally 1024x768 monitors?
>
> I'm personally not partial to horizontal scrolling, so when I develop a
> fixed width site I have held conservative. Is that becoming ancient
> history?

Not so much, have been working on a site for a large accounting firm lately 
and they still want/need 800px max for some of their clients. However, for 
most things have been making widths approx. 920px to accommodate the gadgets 
people keep on their desktop now a days.

I recently went through the Apple dev site, and for better scaling for iPhone 
and related devices a meta tag is advisable:

<meta name="viewport" content="width=927" />
--
cheers,

	ark
--


From sunlust at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:59:28 2008
From: sunlust at gmail.com (Krystian - Sunlust)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:59:28 +0000
Subject: [thelist] SEO report software ?
Message-ID: <e158c8670812101259q102320cetf04e605e23a0336c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Does anyone know of any good software for creating SEO reports?
Something that would check ranking for few keywords, checked the
density, titles, links etc etc?

A free one would be preferable,but I didn't have any luck in finding
anything good enough.

Wanted to use it as a good starting point for talking about SEO for
clients since creating them manually takes ages.

Any links, advices appreciated.

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust
Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
Call for more information or email me.


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 13:40:31 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:40:31 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
Message-ID: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>

Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
clients due to the financial situation in the US? I have been trying
for 2 weeks to get new work (I'm not 100% out of work yet, but I sure
want to get more *before* then) and the response has been very very
slow. Two small jobs I did, but nothing big.

I am asking a bit more than what I'm used to. Now I think I should ask
at least what I usually get or even less. I hear that layoffs are
common all over the place and people are struggling. I don't read the
news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
affecting people like us also.

F


From jcorry at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 15:25:20 2008
From: jcorry at gmail.com (John Corry)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:20 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494033C0.20500@gmail.com>

Lowering my hourly rate or other billables is never an option.

I am worth what I am worth, regardless the current state of the economy.

That said, in times like these it is a good strategy to emphasize the
value that I represent to my clients and why working with me will be
worth it in definite ROI.

So far, I haven't been affected...we'll see how that holds up as the
economy darkens.

John Corry

Fred Jones wrote:
> Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
> clients due to the financial situation in the US? I have been trying
> for 2 weeks to get new work (I'm not 100% out of work yet, but I sure
> want to get more *before* then) and the response has been very very
> slow. Two small jobs I did, but nothing big.
> 
> I am asking a bit more than what I'm used to. Now I think I should ask
> at least what I usually get or even less. I hear that layoffs are
> common all over the place and people are struggling. I don't read the
> news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
> affecting people like us also.
> 
> F


From Paul.Bennett at wcc.govt.nz  Wed Dec 10 15:33:08 2008
From: Paul.Bennett at wcc.govt.nz (Paul Bennett)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:33:08 +1300
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE55112B64A5B479A534E3A6A9B344C495DD24207@exchmb3.net.ad.wcc.govt.nz>

Hi from New Zealand!

The US recession is definitely having an impact here:
1) Job listings are down (both public and private sector) as many companies decide to hold off hiring until things settle down
2) People in current work are tending to stay put rather than face the uncertainty of change
3) Freelance work is definitely in shorter supply - my previous after-work abundance of projects has dried up
4) 'International' Industries over here are feeling the pinch - a very small rental car website I help manage has noticed a sharp downturn in both traffic and enquiries through their website, as people cancel travel due to economic uncertainty
5) The building industry, and related industries such as real estate, plumbing, painting are really struggling, and many have opted for other fields of work or have left the country for "greener" pastures

All in all, it's starting to look tough here too.

If you're struggling now it may be a good idea to get out and about and meet some more people or do whatever it takes to get your business moving again.

:)
Paul


From dunkaz at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 16:01:37 2008
From: dunkaz at gmail.com (Duncan Hill)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:01:37 -0000
Subject: [thelist] Image with cynamic text rollover... back to 'basics'!
 ; -p
In-Reply-To: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b20a7490812100218k4a904aefm304ad81b5642d96a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.ulyvgxjario6dn@soltek>

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:18:07 -0000, Tris <beertastic at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all..
>
> I've been asked to add a rollover to a site.
> all good. but it's a little more complicated and i've not touched
> rollovers in a while..
>
> We've got a series of images being called from a DB.
> The client now wants to put each images tagline over the image, when
> rolled over.
> AND to add an opaque layer to teh text.
>
> for example, if the image is of a tree, then roll over the tree and
> have it go slightly white (opaque layer) with the words. 'A tree' over
> the top nicely positioned in the middle..
>
> Each image has it's own tagline....
>
> I'm reading about PHP's GD library at the mo.. as a way of simply
> creating the second image, as do a simple rollover replacement..
> but what I'd liek to do it to use CSS and jacasvript to dynamically
> put a layer on top..
>
> Google is not my friend today... has anyone doen this before?

Hi Tris,

I have something like that effect, except in reverse, the static has the  
opaque layer and clears on mouseover.
Just uses two images with one contained in a <span> in an li.
Simple css and the only javascript is to kick IE6 a little bit for the  
pseudo classes using the sfhover script as in suckerfish.

http://www.gfs-metalworks.com/metalwork-picture-gallery.php

CSS is simple on it ....

http://www.gfs-metalworks.com/_private/overlay.css

Duncan




From jeff.hinds at netagency.com  Wed Dec 10 16:24:56 2008
From: jeff.hinds at netagency.com (Jeff Hinds)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:24:56 -0600
Subject: [thelist] SEO report software ?
In-Reply-To: <e158c8670812101259q102320cetf04e605e23a0336c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e158c8670812101259q102320cetf04e605e23a0336c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a046f1b40812101424r6976a47av9eba277b5227b2bf@mail.gmail.com>

The standard SEO software used by many is Web Position
http://www.webposition.com/

They have a trial version to download.

Jeff
http://www.suntzuseo.com


On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Krystian - Sunlust <sunlust at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Does anyone know of any good software for creating SEO reports?
> Something that would check ranking for few keywords, checked the
> density, titles, links etc etc?
>
> A free one would be preferable,but I didn't have any luck in finding
> anything good enough.
>
> Wanted to use it as a good starting point for talking about SEO for
> clients since creating them manually takes ages.
>
> Any links, advices appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Krystian - Sunlust
> Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
> Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
> Call for more information or email me.
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com  Wed Dec 10 16:28:45 2008
From: Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:28:45 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD60@ireland.spinhead.com>

> Lowering my hourly rate or other billables is never an option.

amen to that. um, I mean, +1

if you attract people based on price, are they interested in your
professionalism and expertise, or the low price?

and, when someone else offers a lower price, where are they gonna go?

don't make yourself a commodity. learn from Gibson guitars.

when Japanese electric guitars got to be fairly good and fairly cheap,
Gibson lowered their prices. and lowered. finally gave up and decided
they'd just charge enough to make it worth their while.

and sales went up.

raised prices. sales went up. lather. rinse. repeat.

if you want to build your business there are a hundred excellent
strategies (and I'd be delighted to discuss it with you offline, since
my primary business is as a marketing mentor to small businesses and
solo professionals)

lowering your price isn't one of them. 

joel
joel at commonsenseentrepreneur.com



From ekm at seastorm.com  Wed Dec 10 17:04:31 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:04:31 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD60@ireland.spinhead.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>	<494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD60@ireland.spinhead.com>
Message-ID: <49404AFF.5060006@seastorm.com>

Out of all the fields out there that are going to suffer, I'm willing to 
bet that the web and internet fields are going to have a relatively good 
survival rate (this time around).  But we'll see I guess.

Erika


From ronr at linuxdude.com  Wed Dec 10 17:44:03 2008
From: ronr at linuxdude.com (Ron)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:44:03 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49405443.8030508@linuxdude.com>

I wish you luck and hope you're able to get your price. However,
this situation has reached historical proportions and still headed
down hill. I know some very skilled people out of work.

Fortunately,  this will be thoroughly chronicled in every form of
media we have, especially the Web. Maybe if enough people get mad,
we can rein in the thieving corporate bastards like we did the
corrupt politicians, err, except for a couple in Illinois, that is ;-)



John Corry wrote:
> Lowering my hourly rate or other billables is never an option.
>
> I am worth what I am worth, regardless the current state of the economy.
>
> That said, in times like these it is a good strategy to emphasize the
> value that I represent to my clients and why working with me will be
> worth it in definite ROI.
>
> So far, I haven't been affected...we'll see how that holds up as the
> economy darkens.
>
> John Corry
>
> Fred Jones wrote:
>   
>> Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
>> clients due to the financial situation in the US? I have been trying
>> for 2 weeks to get new work (I'm not 100% out of work yet, but I sure
>> want to get more *before* then) and the response has been very very
>> slow. Two small jobs I did, but nothing big.
>>
>> I am asking a bit more than what I'm used to. Now I think I should ask
>> at least what I usually get or even less. I hear that layoffs are
>> common all over the place and people are struggling. I don't read the
>> news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
>> affecting people like us also.
>>
>> F
>>     



From jft at worrigee.net  Wed Dec 10 21:47:26 2008
From: jft at worrigee.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?jft?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:47:26 +1000
Subject: [thelist]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?PHP_Object-orientated_programming_-_book?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?_recommendation?=
Message-ID: <20081211034726.30174.qmail@s419.sureserver.com>

Stefan,
Try:
... http://www.goodphptutorials.com/out/Advanced_PHP_Working_with_Interfaces
--- http://www.computer-books.us/php_2.php (for PHP 5 Power Programming by Gutmans et al)
HPH
John
>??-------Original Message-------
>??From: Stefan Schwarzer <st.schwarzer at geois.de>
>??Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book recommendation
>??Sent: 11 Dec '08 06:07
>??Hi there,
>??Can anyone recommend me some literature which expends this subject not??
>??only a little bit but much more?
>?? Stefan Schwarzer


From sunlust at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 03:44:59 2008
From: sunlust at gmail.com (Krystian - Sunlust)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:44:59 +0000
Subject: [thelist] SEO report software ?
In-Reply-To: <a046f1b40812101424r6976a47av9eba277b5227b2bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e158c8670812101259q102320cetf04e605e23a0336c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a046f1b40812101424r6976a47av9eba277b5227b2bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e158c8670812110144j47f21f40ua23f886e912998e1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reply, but the software only does some SEO work and
creates reports for keyword rankings, I was more interested in
checking the website's structure.

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust
Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
Call for more information or email me.


From chris at gettheedgeonline.com  Thu Dec 11 04:06:04 2008
From: chris at gettheedgeonline.com (Chris Dempsey)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:06:04 -0000
Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine,
	IE throws error - RESOLVED
In-Reply-To: <25903CAF6C1A47A89CDB8F1EB7854EC7@theedge.local>
References: <929A053981C54F0DBBC58E059273CCEB@theedge.local><C212BAA89D21465ABEDCCFDD2417302D@theedge.local>
	<25903CAF6C1A47A89CDB8F1EB7854EC7@theedge.local>
Message-ID: <2B56E445B5CFF24FA32E2F4FB0112F220E2AF6@sbserver.theedge.local>

Fixed it.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Chris Dempsey
Sent: 10 December 2008 16:30
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine,IE throws error - a new one

I didn't check the script fully after removing the HTML comments... 

If you select the New user radio button the form element names are changed as intended but if you then change it back to existing it throws an error: document.form1.fldTitlea2 is null or not an object.  Same with the email address radio buttons but I'm sure it will be the same error so when one is fixed so is the other.

Anyone able to take a look and suggest what I've done wrong?

http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm

Thanks,

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Chris Dempsey
Sent: 10 December 2008 08:46
To: Symeon Charalabides; thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error

Symeon - genius, thank you!  Can't believe I didn't see that...

Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Charalabides
Sent: 09 December 2008 18:31
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist]IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error

Hi Chriss,

Have you tried taking out the HTML comments in the middle of your JS code, i.e. the two lines:

-->
<!-- used for selecting email new/existing

I feel it may have something to do with them.

Cheers,

Symeon Charalabides (cosmopolite trainee)
-----------------------------------------
http://www.systasis.com


>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Chris Dempsey <chris at gettheedgeonline.com>
>  Subject: [thelist] IE7 Javascript - FF3 is fine, IE throws error
>  Sent: 09 Dec '08 18:15
>  
>  Hi All,
>  
>  I have a small javascript that I want to show/hide an area depending on
>  what radio button a user selects:
>  
>  http://www.edgedevelopment.co.uk/tmp/myTickets.asp.htm
>  
>  It works fine in FF3 but IE7 throws an 'object expected' error.??I think
>  it has something to do with the getElementById calls and IE confusing
>  the name and id properties of the elements in question.
>  
>  Can anyone take a look at the page and suggest what I would need to do
>  to make this work in IE as well as FF???I've spent a while on it and
>  with my limited knowledge of javascript have exhausted the Google line
>  of enquiry.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Chris
>  
>  ps. Please ignore the dodgy code layout, I've been messing with it
>  quickly while testing...
>  --
>  
>  * * Please support the community that supports you.??* *
>  http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>  
>  For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
>  and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
>  Workers of the Web, evolt !
>  
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

From percebois at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 04:08:48 2008
From: percebois at gmail.com (Olivier Percebois-Garve)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:08:48 +0100
Subject: [thelist] SEO report software ?
In-Reply-To: <e158c8670812110144j47f21f40ua23f886e912998e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e158c8670812101259q102320cetf04e605e23a0336c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a046f1b40812101424r6976a47av9eba277b5227b2bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<e158c8670812110144j47f21f40ua23f886e912998e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c83e5f670812110208ida5c007v6ecdcffb1094cbf@mail.gmail.com>

hi

web CEO does pretty much everything that can be automated for SEO

olivvv

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Krystian - Sunlust <sunlust at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Jeff,
>
> Thanks for the reply, but the software only does some SEO work and
> creates reports for keyword rankings, I was more interested in
> checking the website's structure.
>
> --
> Krystian - Sunlust
> Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne:
> Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
> Call for more information or email me.
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From jolive at tinet.org  Thu Dec 11 06:23:28 2008
From: jolive at tinet.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Joan_Oliv=E9_i_Mallafr=E8?=)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:23:28 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation (from europe)
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com><494033C0.20500@gmail.com>
	<4FE55112B64A5B479A534E3A6A9B344C495DD24207@exchmb3.net.ad.wcc.govt.nz>
Message-ID: <00d301c95b8b$471378d0$5f01a8c0@Joan>

Good day from Catalonia (Small "waiting for independence" country between 
Spain and France)

Situation here is also very complicated.

We suffered a total collapse on real-state business and are suffering a 
severe collapse in banking financing to companies and common people.

In my experience, since last July, some prospects in the industry, services, 
etc. denied advancing in their projects... In resume: since September I'm 
not reaching any new client!

I'm surviving at 50% work with content's preocces and maintenance, but I 
could not ressist many time more.

I hope situation aught to improve in January, as banks "I hope" should close 
the 2008 year and re-open the money window...

It's really courious to see that oil felt to such prices and even, in next 
months the financing rates should be again low -in our european sacale- but 
in the meanwile, the financing collapse is icing our economy.

Lets hope also than in next Jannuary 20 "the fat woman should sing" -I mean, 
Obama should take power- and enormous amounts of money should re-vitalize 
the US economy.

In Europe I think we must see the "first possitive indicator appears" to 
begin improving our economy. I mean that since 15 months ago, monthly car 
sales statistics, for exemple, are decreasing once and once.

In our past recession, occured after the 1992 olimpics in Barcelona, the 
recession just appeared in October/92, increased along 1993, reaching his 
key point in December, but -as I remember my own situation at those times- I 
could buy an appartment in Novembre 1994, as economy recovered. This means 
that this crisis sensation stayed alive along 24 months. In the present 
situation, "my crisis perception" started in September/2007, when strong 
inflation appeared and real-state collapse were announced. So, applying the 
same parameters, recovery ought to appear in September 2009, but things 
moves faster 14 years after 1993 and I hope in next spring the sun could 
shine again.

In middle term I'm afraid a new severe trouble will danger the european 
economy: US $ ought to be severlly devaluated, in the sense that US economic 
weight in the world ought to reach its natural level. This should put our 
industry in enormeous difficulties, as south europe industry is not so 
qualified to fight in the world as could be the German or Swiss once. Also, 
if China's economy weaks, enormeous troubles should appear...

So: keep belts fastened... and appologize my poor english

Joan Oliv? i Mallafr?
Barcelona (Catalonia)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Bennett" <Paul.Bennett at wcc.govt.nz>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Financial Situation


> Hi from New Zealand!
>
> The US recession is definitely having an impact here:
> 1) Job listings are down (both public and private sector) as many 
> companies decide to hold off hiring until things settle down
> 2) People in current work are tending to stay put rather than face the 
> uncertainty of change
> 3) Freelance work is definitely in shorter supply - my previous after-work 
> abundance of projects has dried up
> 4) 'International' Industries over here are feeling the pinch - a very 
> small rental car website I help manage has noticed a sharp downturn in 
> both traffic and enquiries through their website, as people cancel travel 
> due to economic uncertainty
> 5) The building industry, and related industries such as real estate, 
> plumbing, painting are really struggling, and many have opted for other 
> fields of work or have left the country for "greener" pastures
>
> All in all, it's starting to look tough here too.
>
> If you're struggling now it may be a good idea to get out and about and 
> meet some more people or do whatever it takes to get your business moving 
> again.
>
> :)
> Paul
> -- 
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: 10/12/2008 
18:53



From sam.polenta at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 06:36:33 2008
From: sam.polenta at gmail.com (Sam Alexander)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:36:33 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
Message-ID: <8b169a850812110436q49423ce3wdb8be92d11640d33@mail.gmail.com>

I would tend to agree with the "charge what you're worth" attitude. But one
mustn't be a fool and continue to ask for a rate that no one's paying. :)

I have a friend who also said it's hard to find work, but he also said that
a lot of the smaller freelance jobs are from real flakes--people email and
respond and then they don't email. Sometimes weeks later they popup again
and say "OK, now we're ready to begin." They can be weird about it.

I just received an email today from someone with a very nice job (job from
my perspective) who says he wants to speak on the phone soon and begin the
work next week. And I gave him my new, higher, rate of $85/hour. I am aware
that there are programmers out there taking a lot more than that, but as of
today, I haven't yet determined how to find the clients that they do. I'm
happy with $85.

Could well be actually that those rates of $120/hr and $150/hr are for
organizations, not freelancers. Some business types are more interested to
pay higher rates if they are working with another business. I do know of one
web shop who takes $150 an hour. Someone who I work with is their client! :)

Good luck Fred. Keep on truckin' ;)

Sam


From david at gigawatt.com  Thu Dec 11 08:12:11 2008
From: david at gigawatt.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:12:11 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>

Hi Fred,

"Fred Jones" <fredthejonester at gmail.com>:
>
> Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
> clients due to the financial situation in the US?
> [...] I don't read the
> news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
> affecting people like us also.

We are seeing most of our medium-sized and larger corporate clients, which 
had been doing a lot of steady work in the past few years, cutting back, 
delaying the start of new projects that were scheduled, and talking a lot 
about examining costs and saving money.  When we ask, they tell us that 
they are getting the message from their upper management to rein in 
spending, build rather than buy, do more with less, etc.

Since our bread and butter is big new development efforts, this is becoming 
a scary trend indeed.  Like others have said, we keep our eye on the news, 
hoping it can be believed that the next rate-cut or bail-out (ahem, I mean 
"rescue") or the new administration will stave off what others are 
predicting will be at best a long recession or at worst another Great 
Depression.

Not to be too overdramatic, but this time has sooo much in common 
historically with the 1930's depression: a long and massive real-estate 
bubble that bursts, failing banks followed by giant corporate bankruptcies 
followed by long-term massive unemployment...

I've been spending some time thinking and reading about what businesses 
survive, or even do well, in a depression.  In that last one, it seems, 
vendors of strong alcohol and those offering venues for temporary emotional 
"escape", like movie theaters and comedy venues, did quite well :-)

-dave, still waiting for the "main street" bail-out 



From mrmazda at ij.net  Thu Dec 11 08:35:14 2008
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:35:14 -0500
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
Message-ID: <49412522.8080405@ij.net>

On 2008/12/10 09:34 (GMT-0700) Bob Meetin composed:

> Is the current trend towards remaining somewhat conservative and sticking with designing for 800x600 or more liberally 1024x768 monitors?

> I'm personally not partial to horizontal scrolling, so when I develop a fixed width site I have held conservative. Is that becoming ancient history?

Fixed width is for paper: px fixed width for screen media should be history.
800 & 1024 resolutions are going dodo. For laptops & desktops, higher
resolutions are virtually the only things in stores any more, and other
resolutions apply to various other devices. Worse, not only is there more
resolution scatter, up to 2560 wide so far, but those resolutions are native
on LCD panels (choosing higher impossible, choosing lower producing inferior
quality), and scattered among sizes. e.g. 1920x1200 is found on screens
ranging from 15.4" laptops to 26" desktops. Widths, and text size, on modern
pages should be set entirely without regard to px.
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html
-- 
"Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor
in vain."			Psalm 127:1 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 09:11:46 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:11:46 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <49412522.8080405@ij.net>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz> <49412522.8080405@ij.net>
Message-ID: <49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>

Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2008/12/10 09:34 
> ranging from 15.4" laptops to 26" desktops. Widths, and text size, on modern
> pages should be set entirely without regard to px.
> http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html

Felix,

I've been thinking about your position on this, trying to make your 
ideas work in designs, and have found it nearly impossible to achieve, 
at least as far as current aesthetics regarding web page display.

Liquid design of fonts, divs, objects... was (is) supposed to resolve 
issues of differing monitor sizes, resolutions... but with the range 
available today, in all but the simplest designs, it is too difficult to 
manage page elements on different browsers.  At least with fixed-width 
divs you can figure things will stay proportional.

So much of web design (and development) is about some kind of trade off, 
or choosing a "lesser evil."  The biggest problem comes, for me, with 
managing line length in liquid divs.  Secondarily, aesthetics, such as 
managing margins and where images are placed, are a challenge as well. 
Though things may change one day, currently people seem to still want to 
see a "controlled" and polished-looking design.

Usability-wise, I don't know how people surf the web with larger 
monitors.  Do they resize windows? (I'm talking about PC users.) In the 
past, they did not.

If you have screenshots of more complex sites that successfully 
implement what you consider to be *good* design practices (sizes not 
dependent on px), do you mind sharing those?

Thanks,

Erika



From Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com  Thu Dec 11 09:31:21 2008
From: Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:31:21 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
Message-ID: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6B@ireland.spinhead.com>

quoth dave kaufman-

> I've been spending some time thinking and reading about what
businesses
> survive, or even do well, in a depression.  In that last one, it
seems,
> vendors of strong alcohol and those offering venues for temporary
> emotional
> "escape", like movie theaters and comedy venues, did quite well :-)

ah, I'm all set then . . . just stock the basement with booze and jazz
and turn on the VCR; "Line forms at the back door, folks . . . "

seriously, small businesses who differentiate themselves by providing
excruciatingly good service on a good product or service at a fair price
will do okay. also, if somehow you can tweak your niche to fit folks'
perception of the economy, you can do better than okay. 

my wife is a virtual assistant. she started specializing in marketing
mentoring for her clients (mostly solo professionals) and her business
has doubled-three months in a row. she now has eight times the work she
had last summer, so it's gone from the back burner to our core business;
my web work is now to support what she's doing. 

these people know they need to do something but they aren't hiring full
time help right now. when they realize they can essentially rent a
professional for as little as two hours at a time, they're willing to
give it a try. and when they get the quality of care we provide, they're
usually hooked. of course, it helps to be really good at what you do,
but honestly, taking care of the client's ego has way more impact than
perfection in the product.

even within the frame of 'web dev' or whatever we call what we do, if
your marketing message shows how you help folks stand out and help them
prosper even when things are tough, and then you deliver on the promise,
you can do okay.

joel



From Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com  Thu Dec 11 09:39:28 2008
From: Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:39:28 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz> <49412522.8080405@ij.net>
	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>
Message-ID: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>

> Usability-wise, I don't know how people surf the web with larger
> monitors.  Do they resize windows? (I'm talking about PC users.)

I have a 21" monitor; not huge, but almost big enough. I rarely surf
full screen. usually have a smaller window, which turns out when I check
to be about 1024 wide (comparing it to my test machines, one set at 800
and the other at 1024)

if I'm doing something for a client whose visitors are likely to using
older equipment, I aim for less than 800 wide. if it's for a musician or
some other artsy folk, or someone who's gonna have higher end visitors,
I consider a wider window, but it's not a given even then.

I know fixed widths are evil. when browsers support intelligent text
reflowing into columns so a site looks as good and works as well at both
800 wide and 1920 wide, I'll go totally fluid because I know it's
better.

joel



From admin at chrome.me.uk  Thu Dec 11 09:44:19 2008
From: admin at chrome.me.uk (Chrome)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:44:19 -0000
Subject: [thelist] Postcodes
Message-ID: <000001c95ba7$55c09400$0141bc00$@me.uk>

Hi all

We're currently looking into a postcode lookup database for a client...
Ideally a webservice would be favourite

Does anyone have any suggestions?  We've been looking about and know they
can be a bit pricey so we're looking at any options for now

Thanks in advance!

Dan



From barry at burnthebook.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 10:00:12 2008
From: barry at burnthebook.co.uk (Barry Woolgar)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:00:12 -0000
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
	<49412522.8080405@ij.net>	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>
	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>
Message-ID: <005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>

Hello

> Usability-wise, I don't know how people surf the web with larger
> monitors.  Do they resize windows? (I'm talking about PC users.)

I have a 20" monitor which runs at 1680x1050 and mostly browse full screen.
If I'm reading a wall of text I'll just use Opera's - and now Firefox et
al's - zoom function (ctrl+mousewheel) to make the fixed width site fit
snugly without affecting the original layout. I can then lean back in my
comfy chair, and read at a far more comfortable distance. I barely notice
I'm doing it now!

When I have to use a Mac at work I quickly get frustrated as OS X is geared
more towards lots of layered windows so full screen use could be rarer. Not
because of the frustration, but just due to the way the OS tends to work.

HTH

Barry



From pturmel-webdev at turmel.org  Thu Dec 11 10:00:56 2008
From: pturmel-webdev at turmel.org (Phil Turmel)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:00:56 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
Message-ID: <49413938.9040404@turmel.org>

Hi David, Fred, et al,

David Kaufman wrote:
> Hi Fred,
> 
> "Fred Jones" <fredthejonester at gmail.com>:
>> Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
>> clients due to the financial situation in the US?
>> [...] I don't read the
>> news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
>> affecting people like us also.
> 
Independent businesspeople *really* need to pay attention to the news. 
Government rule-making and wild-eyed "problem solving" is a constant 
hazard.  If you want to limit your intake to business-critical items, 
organizations like NFIB[1] might be useful to you.

> We are seeing most of our medium-sized and larger corporate clients, which 
> had been doing a lot of steady work in the past few years, cutting back, 
> delaying the start of new projects that were scheduled, and talking a lot 
> about examining costs and saving money.  When we ask, they tell us that 
> they are getting the message from their upper management to rein in 
> spending, build rather than buy, do more with less, etc.
> 
I'm in a somewhat unusual spot...  My market is small engineering 
projects for industry, usually with a substantial data collection & 
analysis component.  As a small company, we're more likely to get 
retrofit work than brand-new large system.  Companies are trying to get 
more for their money, and retrofit work is supplanting new installs. 
Ergo, our business is growing while others are suffering.  For now, at 
least.

> Since our bread and butter is big new development efforts, this is becoming 
> a scary trend indeed.  Like others have said, we keep our eye on the news, 
> hoping it can be believed that the next rate-cut or bail-out (ahem, I mean 
> "rescue") or the new administration will stave off what others are 
> predicting will be at best a long recession or at worst another Great 
> Depression.
> 
Call it what you will, but government intervention in markets has a bad 
track record.  Although it's not popular to say so, the evidence is 
overwhelming that FDR's "New Deal" put the "Great" on president 
Harding's depression.  The conventional wisdom is that World War II 
pulled us out of the Great Depression.  The reality is that FDR had to 
cancel his policies to spin us up for WWII.

What's also not well known is that Harding started the depression by 
trying massive government intervention, raising taxes to pay for the 
government spending, and instituting new protectionist trade policies. 
FDR followed up with minimum wage increases, forced unionism, price 
controls, labor restrictions, and massive government make-work programs. 
  Sound familiar?

In any case, our president-elect is pitching a re-run of Harding's and 
FDR's policies.  God help us if he gets them through Congress.  That our 
current president was also treading in Harding's footprints is a bad sign.

> Not to be too overdramatic, but this time has sooo much in common 
> historically with the 1930's depression: a long and massive real-estate 
> bubble that bursts, failing banks followed by giant corporate bankruptcies 
> followed by long-term massive unemployment...
> 
Ummm.  You're being way over-dramatic.  Our economy has suffered worse 
recessions in recent history.  Our current "horrible" unemployment rate 
is 6.8%.  There were worse jobless rates in every decade since the 50's:
	October '49	 7.9%
	July '58	 7.5%
	May '61 	 7.1%
	May '75 	 9.0%
	November '82	10.8%
	June '92	 7.8%

Compare that to 23.6% in 1932, and mid teens all the way up to 1940.

Whether we follow the pattern of recent history or the pattern of the 
FDR's tenure depends on how we as a country react.  It might be better 
to say "reacted", considering our choice on November 4th.

> I've been spending some time thinking and reading about what businesses 
> survive, or even do well, in a depression.  In that last one, it seems, 
> vendors of strong alcohol and those offering venues for temporary emotional 
> "escape", like movie theaters and comedy venues, did quite well :-)
> 
> -dave, still waiting for the "main street" bail-out 
> 
I hope you aren't holding your breath.

If you want to stay in business, take care of your customers.

Regards,

Phil Turmel

-- 
Need to contact me offlist?
   Drop -webdev or you probably won't get through.


From ben.joyce at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 09:58:33 2008
From: ben.joyce at gmail.com (Ben Joyce)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:58:33 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Postcodes
In-Reply-To: <000001c95ba7$55c09400$0141bc00$@me.uk>
References: <000001c95ba7$55c09400$0141bc00$@me.uk>
Message-ID: <cb118a440812110758l26dd2ae2p32f96de22bf177d8@mail.gmail.com>

I use http://www.postcodeanywhere.co.uk for several applications.
They have a good API/SDK and the staff are very helpful.

Ben

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Chrome <admin at chrome.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> We're currently looking into a postcode lookup database for a client...
> Ideally a webservice would be favourite
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?  We've been looking about and know they
> can be a bit pricey so we're looking at any options for now
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dan
>
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>



-- 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/benbenbenbenben


From bobm at dottedi.biz  Thu Dec 11 10:28:18 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:28:18 -0700
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>	<49412522.8080405@ij.net>	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>
	<005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <49413FA2.3030500@dottedi.biz>

Barry Woolgar wrote:
> Hello
> 
>> Usability-wise, I don't know how people surf the web with larger
>> monitors.  Do they resize windows? (I'm talking about PC users.)
> 
> I have a 20" monitor which runs at 1680x1050 and mostly browse full screen.
> If I'm reading a wall of text I'll just use Opera's - and now Firefox et
> al's - zoom function (ctrl+mousewheel) to make the fixed width site fit
> snugly without affecting the original layout. I can then lean back in my
> comfy chair, and read at a far more comfortable distance. I barely notice
> I'm doing it now!
> 
> When I have to use a Mac at work I quickly get frustrated as OS X is geared
> more towards lots of layered windows so full screen use could be rarer. Not
> because of the frustration, but just due to the way the OS tends to work.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Barry
> 

I grant that there is an ample supply of monitors/devices out there capable of a minimum of 1024x768.  I took a look at the display resolution stats at: 
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/default.asp . This is data but does not talk to smart design/development.  I'm probably rare these days in that I don't use 
mobile devices, they hurt my eyes, but I understand that other do and need to keep this in mind.

With my widescreen monitor I could up the resolution substantially, but again, eye strain rules (for me).  I've read many threads which talk to minimum font 
size and some suggesting not set a minimum size, let the visitor choose and this sounds fine.

However when you have to go back/forth and keep changing the zoom level in order to read site A vs site B this is a challenge. I am comfy with fluid design and 
letting the text flow as it may; not aesthetically pleasing, well I see.  Yes you can do a survey of the client's vision of his/her user community, your target 
audience. However for the small business client with little budget you need to make some educated guesses on their behalf.

To reiterate, general guidelines?

-Bob





From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 10:31:07 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:31:07 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>	<49412522.8080405@ij.net>	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>
	<005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <4941404B.6020005@seastorm.com>

Barry Woolgar wrote:
> When I have to use a Mac at work I quickly get frustrated as OS X is geared
> more towards lots of layered windows so full screen use could be rarer.

OSX, OS9, OS8, and every other Mac OS I can remember.

For me, on a Mac, tabbed browsing has accommodated more use of 
full-screen.  (I use a 15" laptop.)

E


From dwayne.conyers at hp.com  Thu Dec 11 11:01:37 2008
From: dwayne.conyers at hp.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:01:37 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>,
	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
Message-ID: <769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Working on municipal, state, or federal projects is always a sure deal.

--
The generation that used acid to escape reality is now using antacid to deal with reality
http://blog.dwacon.com


From Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com  Thu Dec 11 11:17:31 2008
From: Joel at CommonsenseEntrepreneur.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:17:31 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz><49412522.8080405@ij.net>	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com><72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6C@ireland.spinhead.com>
	<005801c95ba9$919a50e0$b4cef2a0$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD70@ireland.spinhead.com>

> If I'm reading a wall of text I'll just use Opera's - and now Firefox
et
> al's - zoom function (ctrl+mousewheel) to make the fixed width site
fit
> snugly without affecting the original layout. I can then lean back in
my
> comfy chair, and read at a far more comfortable distance.

I never remember to do that. I find myself leaning forward and
squinting, which doesn't do a bit of good. 

make text larger. I can do that. yeah.



From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 11:30:34 2008
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:30:34 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
	<769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430812110930j31efb262v382f048aa4de8ec4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Conyers, Dwayne <dwayne.conyers at hp.com> wrote:
> Working on municipal, state, or federal projects is always a sure deal.

Bzzzt. They're protected, because they can always increase taxes,
borrow, and inflate (without any negative consequences, right?), but
at the end of the day these things have limits and these limits *are*
tied to the economy. Tax revenue falls double-time when the economy
declines, because there are fewer wages to tax and fewer funds in the
hands of citizens to spend (affects sales taxes). Plus property values
are (rightfully) falling, which means less property tax revenue
(eventually). Et cetera.

My client is a government agency, and they are seeing budget cuts. Of
course the first few rounds just cut the fluff and have no effect on
current headcount or projects, but eventually the later rounds of
budget cuts start resulting in the cancellation of projects. (As a
last resort, they will cut people, if labor agreements even allow.)

I am seeing increased attention from all levels on projects which
promise high ROI, and anything promising medium- and low-ROI in the
immediate future (even if long-term is much higher) is being dropped.

One thing to note, with governments the "wave" is usually a little
off-set from the rest of the economy. In other words, the decline in
revenue starts later and ends later, just by the nature of from where
that revenue comes.

Thanks,

-- 
Matt Warden
Cincinnati, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 12:02:05 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:02:05 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Kevin Kelly on the future of the cloud
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430812092010g36a339bdr646ffe93fcdc74f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <493F2E88.2090809@seastorm.com>
	<bbc8fa430812092010g36a339bdr646ffe93fcdc74f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4941559D.6090601@seastorm.com>

Matt Warden wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Erika <ekm at seastorm.com> wrote:
>> Wired founder Kevin Kelly has been giving talks on where he sees the web
>> going over the next several years.
>> http://blip.tv/file/1441210/
> 
> I wonder if the flying cars we're getting by the year 2000 will be
> connected to this new web, 

The new flying car is a bicycle. :)  (At least here in Portland.)

> along with my 24-hr non-invasive body
> probes 

Yeah he just zipped right by that one... I have no idea what this means, 
but it sounds troubling.  Probes?  No thank you.

> "If you're producing some information and it's not web-ized, it's not
> someway online and related and shared to everything else, it doesn't
> count."
> 
> So, hey, if blip.tv hadn't posted this video on the web, would his
> talk have "counted"? 

Not on a global level.  I think it's about perspective.  You know that 
your book (for example) is going to get far more attention and sales if 
it is available and marketed online, rather than just in a bookstore.

> And certainly the coordinated moves in the global stock markets are a
> reflection of the web, not the fact that the most of the world
> standardizes on the US Dollar, holds significant US debt, is highly
> dependent on US consumption rates, (etc)

I don't know, but doesn't it seem like in the past, when one country 
suffered an economic breakdown, there was a lot less of a ripple effect? 
   This crash is different; is it globalization, or is it scale, or a 
combination?  And isn't the internet just the brain and nervous system 
of globalization?

> I can access perezhilton.com from Uganda.

Now you're just trying to scare me. :)

> And I replayed that portion about "Socialism 2.0" about 7 times 

I've listened to the talk twice and I missed that both times.  ???

> Wikipedia isn't "Socialism". Anyone can make an edit to a wikipedia
> page, but if it's not beneficial, it won't last. How do you know if
> it's beneficial? Because it either lasted or didn't last. Does this
> sound familiar to anyone? Wikipedia isn't centrally administered; it's
> fully competitive.[2]

Wikipedia... Wikimedia...
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Our_projects

like evolt.org, embodies open source zeitgeist more than anything. It is 
more centralized than evolt.org is in some ways (they have a corporate 
structure), and less centralized in other ways (control of site content).

They also have a lot more money than us....
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
http://flouzo.net/articles/2008/02/13/donations-a-business-model-really-wikipedias-example

> These simply are not new ideas. There's the old visual presentation
> web, and we realized a long time ago that we needed to separate data
> and presentation (it's just that we keep coming up with new reasons
> why). What can you do with data? You can have multiple presentations,
> you can integrate systems, you can communicate across devices, you can
> generate knowledge. 

XML finally realizing its potential.  Getting smart about syndicating...

> Didn't mean to pick on your link, Erika. 

That's what it was there for.

> I'm sure the people on this
> list have some pretty interesting ideas about where the Web is going.

You would think...

Erika


From mrmazda at ij.net  Thu Dec 11 12:06:32 2008
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:06:32 -0500
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz> <49412522.8080405@ij.net>
	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>
Message-ID: <494156A8.7030706@ij.net>

On 2008/12/11 07:11 (GMT-0800) Erika composed:

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> ranging from 15.4" laptops to 26" desktops. Widths, and text size, on modern
>> pages should be set entirely without regard to px.
>> http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html

> I've been thinking about your position on this, trying to make your 
> ideas work in designs, and have found it nearly impossible to achieve, 
> at least as far as current aesthetics regarding web page display.

Not sure what you mean by "current" aesthetics, but I think as long as sites
like http://www.positioniseverything.net/ (px fixed width, 90% Verdana),
http://evolt.org/ (px fixed width nav, no overall width constraint, 80%
font-size on body) and http://www.alistapart.com/ (px fixed widths, .8125
Verdana on body) fail to be good examples of how it can be done, I can't see
many major sites materially deviating from the status quo. If one of the open
source CMS systems was doing it, maybe others would notice, and pay heed.

> Liquid design of fonts, divs, objects... was (is) supposed to resolve 
> issues of differing monitor sizes, resolutions... but with the range 
> available today, in all but the simplest designs, it is too difficult to 
> manage page elements on different browsers.  At least with fixed-width 
> divs you can figure things will stay proportional.

How are you finding my simple examples to fall short? If so, how? Are you
still trying to make everything always look "exactly" the same in all
browsers? If so, why?

> So much of web design (and development) is about some kind of trade off, 
> or choosing a "lesser evil." 

Compromise is part of most design, not just web design. For example in car
design, a shallow windshield rake makes for both a good look, and less drag.
In contrast, a too shallow rake likely puts the top too close to the drivers
head, where it's more easily impacted in a crash, and also makes the bottom
of the glass and back of the dash harder to clean. If you move the base of
the glass farther forward in order to maintain distance to the driver's head,
then either the overall design will gain unwanted weight, or impose
servicability degradation. Choices have to be made based on priorities which
themselves constitute compromise.

In web design, appearance seems to nearly always take a back seat to function
and/or accessibility. The latter should be the priority in all situations
where the function of the site isn't itself about appearance. While the
host's "image" usually matters, not un-typically a lot, it should never
matter more than getting the job done, nor shut out potential users, nor
aggravate users. Imperfect appearance is the lesser evil. None of us look
perfect, though most of us function well enough. Why must web sites be the
opposite?

> The biggest problem comes, for me, with
> managing line length in liquid divs. 

What's wrong with min-width & max-width using ems for outer elements, and %
for inners? Yes we know legacy IE versions don't directly support them, but
should that matter any more? IE6 & earlier is dying, and dangerous for users
- people using IE6 have bigger problems than line length. Let IE6 users
shorten too wide stuff by shrinking their windows. That's not hard, while
making too short stuff wider is as a practical matter impossible. Include
help on site for getting off IE dependance for those still addicted.

> Secondarily, aesthetics, such as
> managing margins and where images are placed, are a challenge as well. 
> Though things may change one day, currently people seem to still want to 
> see a "controlled" and polished-looking design.

Sounds like control-freak-itus somewhere, pages designed for designers rather
than users. The web isn't paper. Viewports vary, a lot. Web pages needn't
look like they were meant to function correctly only in a designer's viewport.

> Usability-wise, I don't know how people surf the web with larger 
> monitors.  Do they resize windows? (I'm talking about PC users.)

Should it matter? You know they vary, so your job should be to take that
knowledge into account by making it matter as little as possible, or not at
all. Don't forget, some people buy bigger monitors not to gain screen real
estate, but to make things bigger. That that desire often fails (bigger size
typically is accompanied by higher DPI, often more DPI increase than size
increase, with negative net effect from the "upgrade") is a sign that there's
something wrong with today's web paradigm.

> In the past, they did not.

Is this a proven fact? Even if it is/was, need it matter?

> If you have screenshots of more complex sites that successfully 
> implement what you consider to be *good* design practices (sizes not 
> dependent on px), do you mind sharing those?

http://cssliquid.com/ may be a place to start with examples. I've not tried
per se to collect "complex" sites. The screenshots I have are mostly in
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/ and its subdirs, but they are far more "what's wrong"
shots than "what's good". Does anything in
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ShowCase fill the bill? If you find
something that isn't there and should be, you can put it there. I haven't had
time to look in a long time.
-- 
"Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor
in vain."			Psalm 127:1 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 12:10:14 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:10:14 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430812110930j31efb262v382f048aa4de8ec4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>	<769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
	<bbc8fa430812110930j31efb262v382f048aa4de8ec4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49415786.9070609@seastorm.com>

Matt Warden wrote:
> One thing to note, with governments the "wave" is usually a little
> off-set from the rest of the economy. In other words, the decline in
> revenue starts later and ends later, just by the nature of from where
> that revenue comes.

This is true.  It is also true that layoffs are not the first thing they 
do, but rather cut budgets.  So, for example, you get to use Front Page 
to build a 100,000 page intranet (because it's bundled with MS Office), 
and then, 10 years later, you get to port the whole thing into Plone.

Erika


From Ron.Luther at hp.com  Thu Dec 11 12:42:09 2008
From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:42:09 +0000
Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book
 recommendation
In-Reply-To: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>
References: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>
Message-ID: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B871C2B0@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Stefan Schwarzer asked for PHP literature recommendations.


Hi Stefan,

I haven't read it (yet) but the next time I'm in a bookstore I plan to peruse the new "Professional LAMP" book from Wrox.  The reviews I have looked over are very positive ... especially so if you are mostly interested in the 'P' portion of LAMP.

But I'm mostly interested because one of the co-authors is evolt's own Matt Warden!  Woooot!  ;-P

HTH,
RonL.






From Ron.Luther at hp.com  Thu Dec 11 12:30:26 2008
From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:30:26 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>,
	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
	<769907F0D19EFA45BD6F04FC6E896D6D1EC08FB1F2@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Message-ID: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B871C290@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Dwayne noted:

>>Working on municipal, state, or federal projects is always a sure deal.


Hi Dwayne!


Heh.  Oh my.  Hey, don't try that line on folks on this side of the State!  Especially any who rented to Katrina victims because they were told that ... "FEMA is guaranteed to pay".   Oh Yeah, *that* worked out well!


Still giggling,
RonL.


From ftarzwell at fayec.com  Thu Dec 11 12:40:15 2008
From: ftarzwell at fayec.com (FayeC)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:40:15 -0500
Subject: [thelist] SaveTheDevelopers script
Message-ID: <471b50444e13361306e956818da9ff8a@d-e-a-f.ca>

Hi,

I took a dive and decided not to support IE6 anymore (please don't flame me
- it was a much thought over decision).
I still do basic css hacks to make the page degrade gently but I don't
spend LOTS of time trying to figure out ways to force it to display exactly
the same way it does on FF or IE7.
I had the SaveTheDevelopers script on my page and for the longest time it
worked ok....then some 3 months back I realized the script wasn't working
and that savethedevelopers.org was now a Micrososft owned domain pointing
to the IE7 site.
Unfortunately I didn't have the script hosted locally so now I am hoping
someone here has a copy of the script and that I could have it emailed to
me so I can get it working again?

Any help is appreciated,

FayeC



From anthony at baratta.com  Thu Dec 11 13:25:00 2008
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:25:00 -0800
Subject: [thelist] SaveTheDevelopers script
Message-ID: <fa018797e6bf7fd3d901cf3cc73abff8@baratta.com>

FWIW...

http://forum.elxis.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2293.0



From anthony at baratta.com  Thu Dec 11 13:26:23 2008
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:26:23 -0800
Subject: [thelist] SaveTheDevelopers script
Message-ID: <3dfa5ff04fb77047efdbc6421bffa842@baratta.com>

One more...

http://svn.modxcms.com/crucible/browse/modx/branches/revolution/assets/js/say.no.to.ie.6.js?r=4391

-----Original message-----
From: "Anthony Baratta" anthony at baratta.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:25:00 -0800
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] SaveTheDevelopers script

> FWIW...
> 
> http://forum.elxis.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2293.0
> 



From UITDEV at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 13:34:32 2008
From: UITDEV at gmail.com (UIT DEV)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:34:32 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>

Absolutely not.  My worth to a client is the same no matter what the
"economic situation".

Those who do, who will, or who agree - you have to ask yourself this
question:  Would you INCREASE your rates in times of prosperity?   If so,
isnt that gouging?    I havent seen electricians, plumbers, home
renovation/repair workers, lawyers or doctors lower their rates yet.

I take my cue from those professionals.  I will never lower my rates.  If my
client wants lower rates then they can go elsewhere - outsource to India if
they want.  And they run the risk of others who have done so -- the quality
of the work suffers tremendously.   If I have to match those outsourced
rates then I may as well work at Target or Home Depot  and *not* have the
level of responsibility that a software developer has.

Sorry.  Anyone who lowers rates is perpetuating a problem within the
software developer profession where we already give too much advice and work
away for nothing as it is!

My two cents.



On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 14:40, Fred Jones <fredthejonester at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is anyone else considering lowering their hourly rate to get new
> clients due to the financial situation in the US? I have been trying
> for 2 weeks to get new work (I'm not 100% out of work yet, but I sure
> want to get more *before* then) and the response has been very very
> slow. Two small jobs I did, but nothing big.
>
> I am asking a bit more than what I'm used to. Now I think I should ask
> at least what I usually get or even less. I hear that layoffs are
> common all over the place and people are struggling. I don't read the
> news much (OK, not at all) so I'm wondering if this situation is
> affecting people like us also.
>
> F
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 13:29:46 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:29:46 +0200
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
Message-ID: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Drupal 5 site with E-Commerce 5.x-3.3 which has been up and
working for while, like a year maybe.

Today they write me and say people can't pay. I checked it out and the
site is fine, BUT when I click to pay and it sends me to paypal.com, I
get a blank page. IE and FF. I asked them to send me the password for
their account so I can call PayPal and TRY to speak to a human, but do
any humans here know anything about this?

Seems to me that something happened at PayPal. Maybe it's just temporary?

Thanks.


From randalrust at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 13:47:05 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:47:05 -0500
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Fred Jones <fredthejonester at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a Drupal 5 site with E-Commerce 5.x-3.3 which has been up and
> working for while, like a year maybe.

Do you have a test or development environment where you have a
duplicate of the application set up, so that you can test it out to
see if you can duplicate and debug without affecting the live
environment?

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 13:53:50 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:53:50 +0200
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
In-Reply-To: <a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>

> Do you have a test or development environment where you have a
> duplicate of the application set up, so that you can test it out to
> see if you can duplicate and debug without affecting the live
> environment?

Right, good idea. Maybe the DB changed, because the code sure
didn't--no one has access to it to but me! :)


From graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 16:44:03 2008
From: graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk (graham.hays)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:44:03 +0100
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
Message-ID: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>

Hi all

One of my clients wants me to support his site which uses ASP (All my other
sites use Apache/PHP). Although I can install IIS (XP Pro) it just sits
there as the Apache server neatly picks up all requests. (ASP files display
the source code)

So..
1. Can the Apache server handle ASP files?
2. If 'yes', can someone point me in the right direction
3. if no, how can I get IIS and Apache to work together, or
4. Have I missed some blindingly obvious method of getting PHP and ASP to
live together?

Thanks all

Graham

PS 'Merry Christmas' one and all .. Is that the first?



From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Thu Dec 11 16:53:39 2008
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:53:39 +1100
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>
Message-ID: <A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>

Unless you bind each web server software product to a separate IP address, then only one webserver (Apache or IIS) can use TCP port 80 at a time.

What has probably happened is that you have installed IIS, but IIS is unable to start the default web site due to a binding conflict (Apache is using port 80, so IIS can't).

You could always add a second IP address to your machine and configure IIS to use one, and Apache to use the other. Or you can configure the Default Web Site in IIS to use a non-standard port (e.g. port 81)

Cheers
Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]
> On Behalf Of graham.hays
> Sent: Friday, 12 December 2008 9:44 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
> 
> Hi all
> 
> One of my clients wants me to support his site which uses ASP (All my other
> sites use Apache/PHP). Although I can install IIS (XP Pro) it just sits
> there as the Apache server neatly picks up all requests. (ASP files display
> the source code)
> 
> So..
> 1. Can the Apache server handle ASP files?
> 2. If 'yes', can someone point me in the right direction
> 3. if no, how can I get IIS and Apache to work together, or
> 4. Have I missed some blindingly obvious method of getting PHP and ASP to
> live together?
> 
> Thanks all
> 
> Graham


From Brian at hondaswap.com  Thu Dec 11 17:00:05 2008
From: Brian at hondaswap.com (Brian Cummiskey)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:00:05 -0500
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>
	<A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
Message-ID: <49419B75.6020901@hondaswap.com>

There is a product called Chilisoft ASP.

it's FAR from great, but it might be good enough for a small ASP app on 
apache.


From graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 18:23:54 2008
From: graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk (graham.hays)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:23:54 +0100
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>
	<A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
Message-ID: <38BC205BA2484646A69F1CDE828A90EA@valencia>

I guessed it was something of the sort (Port 80) - I'll try your 2
suggestions (2nd IP & port xx).

Thanks
Graham

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
> Sent: 11 December 2008 23:54
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
> 
> Unless you bind each web server software product to a 
> separate IP address, then only one webserver (Apache or IIS) 
> can use TCP port 80 at a time.
> 
> What has probably happened is that you have installed IIS, 
> but IIS is unable to start the default web site due to a 
> binding conflict (Apache is using port 80, so IIS can't).
> 
> You could always add a second IP address to your machine and 
> configure IIS to use one, and Apache to use the other. Or you 
> can configure the Default Web Site in IIS to use a 
> non-standard port (e.g. port 81)
> 
> Cheers
> Ken
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org 
> > [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]
> > On Behalf Of graham.hays
> > Sent: Friday, 12 December 2008 9:44 AM
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
> > 
> > Hi all
> > 
> > One of my clients wants me to support his site which uses 
> ASP (All my 
> > other sites use Apache/PHP). Although I can install IIS (XP Pro) it 
> > just sits there as the Apache server neatly picks up all requests. 
> > (ASP files display the source code)
> > 
> > So..
> > 1. Can the Apache server handle ASP files?
> > 2. If 'yes', can someone point me in the right direction 3. 
> if no, how 
> > can I get IIS and Apache to work together, or 4. Have I missed some 
> > blindingly obvious method of getting PHP and ASP to live together?
> > 
> > Thanks all
> > 
> > Graham
> -- 
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * * 
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip 
> Harvester and archives of thelist go to: 
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 18:25:26 2008
From: graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk (graham.hays)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:25:26 +0100
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <49419B75.6020901@hondaswap.com>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia><A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
	<49419B75.6020901@hondaswap.com>
Message-ID: <DF71918C6A784520A90AA6A95AF46136@valencia>

Thanks I'll take a look at it - I'm going to try Ken's suggestions first as
that seems better long term (esp. if Chilisoft ASP is at flaky).

Thanks 

graham

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey
> Sent: 12 December 2008 00:00
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
> 
> There is a product called Chilisoft ASP.
> 
> it's FAR from great, but it might be good enough for a small 
> ASP app on apache.
> -- 
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * * 
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip 
> Harvester and archives of thelist go to: 
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 18:31:13 2008
From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:31:13 -0800
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <38BC205BA2484646A69F1CDE828A90EA@valencia>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia>
	<A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
	<38BC205BA2484646A69F1CDE828A90EA@valencia>
Message-ID: <4eedb92a0812111631q8187114l9f91f5d3486ac887@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:23 PM, graham.hays
<graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk> wrote:
> I guessed it was something of the sort (Port 80) - I'll try your 2
> suggestions (2nd IP & port xx).

FWIW, Apache httpd can function as a reverse proxy: run IIS on any
other port, create a virtual host for that app, and transparently pass
traffic through to it, so no second IP or funky alt port # in the URL.

Lots of sites do this to support other servers (e.g. Tomcat, Mongrel
clusters for Rails).

HTH,
-- 
Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com


From graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 18:47:03 2008
From: graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk (graham.hays)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:47:03 +0100
Subject: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
In-Reply-To: <4eedb92a0812111631q8187114l9f91f5d3486ac887@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3B02FC20D2C34C18860820727655A2CB@valencia><A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897E7F49A27@kjserver3.kjhome.local><38BC205BA2484646A69F1CDE828A90EA@valencia>
	<4eedb92a0812111631q8187114l9f91f5d3486ac887@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32B109A7E60E44149409F5712C892FCD@valencia>

Even better!

I'll try this in the morning (0146 current time)

Many thanks

Graham 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder
> Sent: 12 December 2008 01:31
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] ASP(IIS) and Apache .. Together?
> 
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:23 PM, graham.hays 
> <graham.hays at visualcomputing.co.uk> wrote:
> > I guessed it was something of the sort (Port 80) - I'll try your 2 
> > suggestions (2nd IP & port xx).
> 
> FWIW, Apache httpd can function as a reverse proxy: run IIS 
> on any other port, create a virtual host for that app, and 
> transparently pass traffic through to it, so no second IP or 
> funky alt port # in the URL.
> 
> Lots of sites do this to support other servers (e.g. Tomcat, 
> Mongrel clusters for Rails).
> 
> HTH,
> --
> Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com
> -- 
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * * 
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip 
> Harvester and archives of thelist go to: 
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Thu Dec 11 18:58:36 2008
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 00:58:36 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>


On 11 Dec 2008, at 19:34, UIT DEV wrote:

> Absolutely not.  My worth to a client is the same no matter what the
> "economic situation".

>  Anyone who lowers rates is perpetuating a problem within the
> software developer profession where we already give too much advice  
> and work
> away for nothing as it is!


Well yes and no.

I do think that the vast majority of freelancers dramatically  
undercharge (and give away far more than they should), but that's not  
the same as your worth (in economic terms) being the same.

Your worth to a client I'm afraid is bounded at the top end by what  
incremental profit (ie more revenue/less cost) your work will produce  
for them. And right now, the margin between those is being squeezed  
all round. So unless you can produce something that will  
*dramatically* take out costs, your worth is going down. And *every*  
business client knows that they have to cut their costs wherever they  
can; spending less on your services will be no different from anyone  
else. Pretty much every astute client will be trying to negotiate you  
downwards (and I've seen that even at the very top end of the business).

The end result is that you do still increase or hold your rates, but  
in other circumstances, they could have gone up (more).

> Those who do, who will, or who agree - you have to ask yourself this
> question:  Would you INCREASE your rates in times of prosperity?    
> If so,
> isnt that gouging?    I havent seen electricians, plumbers, home
> renovation/repair workers, lawyers or doctors lower their rates yet.

You've not been paying attention then. Pretty much all trades in  
construction are slashing their rates right now, to get work in the  
door. Why? Because - like you, like all service businesses - nearly  
all their costs are fixed costs; it costs the same to be open whether  
or not they're busy. It's usually more viable to keep business coming  
in, even if it's at lower rates, rather than have the team sit idle.

> I take my cue from those professionals.  I will never lower my  
> rates.  If my
> client wants lower rates then they can go elsewhere - outsource to  
> India if
> they want.  And they run the risk of others who have done so -- the  
> quality
> of the work suffers tremendously.

Depends on how you do it, and at least 75% depends on the client's  
approach to it. Given that I'm currently running a 40 person team in  
India, and the quality of what we're producing is actually pretty  
damned good - in some of our projects significantly outstripping teams  
that are local - I think you're operating on hearsay rather than  
experience.

> If I have to match those outsourced
> rates then I may as well work at Target or Home Depot  and *not*  
> have the
> level of responsibility that a software developer has.

If what you're doing is simple coding to well documented requirements,  
sure. But the value of a local team is in analysis and design. And  
when you need the level of interactivity when you're literally sitting  
next to your client while coding (if you're in an office on the other  
side of town, you might as well be 6000 miles away).

Cheers
Martin
--
 > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter
 > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/







From Sales at medes.net  Thu Dec 11 20:06:59 2008
From: Sales at medes.net (Martyn)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 02:06:59 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
Message-ID: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net>

Hello,

I am converting my website from fixed width 800px, it was all going well 
until I edited the Nav bar, I have formatted all the text in ems.

I obviously I don't want the Nav bar to wrap down with smaller viewports 
and I have used Nowrap, but this just goes off screen.

Is there anyway to scale text to the viewport size as with images. I 
have created all the divs as 100% etc.

Cheers

Martyn


From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 21:43:14 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:43:14 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6B@ireland.spinhead.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>
	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6B@ireland.spinhead.com>
Message-ID: <4941DDD2.6050909@seastorm.com>

This is all about walking six miles to school in the snow so be warned.

Anyone who's been in this industry very long, and lives in the US, has 
already been through one big crash.  The web industry started to 
nosedive in 2000, and 9/11/2001 just sealed our fate.  Every single 
person I knew working at web agencies large or small lost his or her job 
between 2000 and 2002.  I rode it out in academia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble

But even before the crash things weren't *that* rosy for a front-end 
developer.  For one thing, there was no such thing, as a front-end 
developer.  There were "web designers" and HTML monkeys.  If your 
graphic design skills were not mind blowing, and you weren't a 
programmer, you could be an HTML monkey.
http://evolt.org/My_Awesome_Adventure_at_CompanyX

No one cared about web standards.  No one cared if your code validated. 
Frequently, they didn't care, or even want you, to hand-code. I was a 
single mother trying to support a family on skills people didn't much 
value. Well guess what?  It's different now.  You don't know how 
thrilled I am to walk into a job interview and have my interviewer 
really *really* care whether my code validates. Honestly, I never 
thought I'd see the day.

As for the markets, in some ways, I feel like our system is simply 
correcting itself (like it did after the dot com boom).  How bad is it 
going to get?  I don't know, but I know that the worse it gets, the more 
resourceful we will get. Painful? yep.  Especially if you have kids to 
feed, or if you're carrying debt.

But me, I just had another awesome job interview and then I filled my 
gas tank for $20.

Erika




From david at chelseacreekstudio.com  Thu Dec 11 20:47:02 2008
From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:47:02 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net>
Message-ID: <4941D0A6.2010109@chelseacreekstudio.com>

Martyn wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am converting my website from fixed width 800px, it was all going well 
> until I edited the Nav bar, I have formatted all the text in ems.
>
>
>
> Martyn
>   


Point to your page/problem in question.



From UITDEV at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 21:53:14 2008
From: UITDEV at gmail.com (UIT DEV)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:53:14 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>

Martin,

You said "Pretty much all trades in construction are slashing their rates
right now, to get work in the door." and I do agree, however, these same
people are also going to get you on the way out the door.  They're not
slashing much, if at all.  :-)   The turth is, the economics of the issue is
that we can not slash our prices and continue to put food on our plates -
the cost of food hasnt come down (along with the gas prices, WHICH, was the
reason given to us that food skyrocketed).  Hmm..    I've had several home
repair people in my house in the past month for various issues and none have
changed their rates.  When I asked them if they will, they say not at
all.    I've also had the need to consult with an attorney and her rates
have not budged at all.  Nor shall they.

I think the main issue is that there are plenty of folks who will do the
work for next to nothing and undercut each other in our profession but I
noticed that in those other professions, they stick together.

Also,   " the quality of what we're producing is actually pretty damned good
- in some of our projects significantly outstripping teams that are local -
I think you're operating on hearsay rather than experience."

I beg to differ.  I've personally had to correct tons of code that has been
developed by "teams in India" for a huge financial institution in the States
and I to be perfectly blunt with you, no one wants to talk about this.  No
one wants to mention it for fear of their jobs because right now,
outsourcing is politically correct.  Is actually considered disrespectful to
speak against the code quality and to simply keep it hush hush while hiring
locals to correct the many issues with it.

Also, no one wants to admit that this outsourcing is one of the nasty horns
on this beast of a recession we've got brewing.  Its not just the housing
bubble, the mere fact that hundreds of thousands of jobs have been given
away (in many fields, not just coding) and no one wants to discuss it.   The
politicians wonder where the tax base went.  The economists wonder where the
jobs went.  No one wants to admit that we've destroyed our economy by giving
jobs away and placing highly skilled people onto the unemployment lines.

I am one of them.  Not only is my salary ZERO now, my tax revenue
contribution to my State and to my country is ZERO.   My spending power is
ZERO.  My contribution to the local and regional economies - where I used to
be part of that stimulation of those economies, is ZERO.   And you can
mulitply me by thousands.   This has a tremendous impact on our nation but
no one wants to discuss it.

So I am on my own and I am not going to charge $11/hr to develop software
when I used to get paid $44/hr, plus benefits and such.   Home Depot and
Walmart - they wont hire me.  They know I will jump ship at the first better
offer and they are 100% correct.  So I dont blame them.  I will seek work
and charge my worth to clients and if they dont like it - to bad for all of
us all around.  I'd rather find another career with a hell of a lot less
stress and responsibility, and pay, than to be forced to earn the wage of
someone in a developing country but have to live in a DEVELOPED country.

Its insantity.

-Jim




On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 19:58, Martin Burns <martin at easyweb.co.uk> wrote:

>
> On 11 Dec 2008, at 19:34, UIT DEV wrote:
>
> > Absolutely not.  My worth to a client is the same no matter what the
> > "economic situation".
>
> >  Anyone who lowers rates is perpetuating a problem within the
> > software developer profession where we already give too much advice
> > and work
> > away for nothing as it is!
>
>
> Well yes and no.
>
> I do think that the vast majority of freelancers dramatically
> undercharge (and give away far more than they should), but that's not
> the same as your worth (in economic terms) being the same.
>
> Your worth to a client I'm afraid is bounded at the top end by what
> incremental profit (ie more revenue/less cost) your work will produce
> for them. And right now, the margin between those is being squeezed
> all round. So unless you can produce something that will
> *dramatically* take out costs, your worth is going down. And *every*
> business client knows that they have to cut their costs wherever they
> can; spending less on your services will be no different from anyone
> else. Pretty much every astute client will be trying to negotiate you
> downwards (and I've seen that even at the very top end of the business).
>
> The end result is that you do still increase or hold your rates, but
> in other circumstances, they could have gone up (more).
>
> > Those who do, who will, or who agree - you have to ask yourself this
> > question:  Would you INCREASE your rates in times of prosperity?
> > If so,
> > isnt that gouging?    I havent seen electricians, plumbers, home
> > renovation/repair workers, lawyers or doctors lower their rates yet.
>
> You've not been paying attention then. Pretty much all trades in
> construction are slashing their rates right now, to get work in the
> door. Why? Because - like you, like all service businesses - nearly
> all their costs are fixed costs; it costs the same to be open whether
> or not they're busy. It's usually more viable to keep business coming
> in, even if it's at lower rates, rather than have the team sit idle.
>
> > I take my cue from those professionals.  I will never lower my
> > rates.  If my
> > client wants lower rates then they can go elsewhere - outsource to
> > India if
> > they want.  And they run the risk of others who have done so -- the
> > quality
> > of the work suffers tremendously.
>
> Depends on how you do it, and at least 75% depends on the client's
> approach to it. Given that I'm currently running a 40 person team in
> India, and the quality of what we're producing is actually pretty
> damned good - in some of our projects significantly outstripping teams
> that are local - I think you're operating on hearsay rather than
> experience.
>
> > If I have to match those outsourced
> > rates then I may as well work at Target or Home Depot  and *not*
> > have the
> > level of responsibility that a software developer has.
>
> If what you're doing is simple coding to well documented requirements,
> sure. But the value of a local team is in analysis and design. And
> when you need the level of interactivity when you're literally sitting
> next to your client while coding (if you're in an office on the other
> side of town, you might as well be 6000 miles away).
>
> Cheers
> Martin
> --
>  > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter
>  > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From ekm at seastorm.com  Thu Dec 11 21:53:23 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:53:23 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <4941DDD2.6050909@seastorm.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>	<66B0B656E3CA4A54B4D4AB3FC70C51B3@cylon>	<72E9FAA171D63B48AAC707C72900E6B40195FD6B@ireland.spinhead.com>
	<4941DDD2.6050909@seastorm.com>
Message-ID: <4941E033.7050803@seastorm.com>

> But me, I just had another awesome job interview and then I filled my 
> gas tank for $20.

Awesome, but not in the ironic sense this time. ;)

E


From barney.carroll at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 02:30:29 2008
From: barney.carroll at gmail.com (Barney Carroll)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:30:29 +0000
Subject: [thelist] mouseover + set/clearInterval concerns
Message-ID: <472577830812120030i2ee0bb44hbcb792aae7becef5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, list!
I'm building a drop-down menu system whereby sub-menus fade in and out on
mouseover/out and I'm facing a bit of a DOM problem as well as a few JS
programmatic errors I don't quite understand. To my mind these would be
common issues (it's a fairly standard concept), but googling reveals nothing
relevant, so I was hoping people here might have resolved similar issues.

The test page is here: http://barneycarroll.com/work/ed

1) The mouse moving into the area of the revealed sub menu triggers a
mouseout of the containing li. I'm pretty stumped by this, especially as the
revealed sub-menu's elements are within the metric scope of their parents at
all times. Does anybody know why this is or have any idea how to go about
avoiding it?

2) If the user ends up in the situation above, or triggers either of the
events while the other's setInterval is still running, the fadeIn and
fadeOut setIntervals seem to run simultaneously, which means neither can
resolve as both rely on either reaching the end state of their actions or
being interrupted by the other in order to end. I'm pretty confused by this
since I've explicitly told both actions to clearInterval the other once
triggered, but obviously this isn't happening.

Any tips? I'd be grateful for any insight.


Regards,
Barney Carroll
Web designer & front-end developer

t: +44 (0) 7594 506 381


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 05:57:15 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:57:15 +0200
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
	<177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <177c0a10812120357o6bead905v78c6a48154468e95@mail.gmail.com>

Got the answer from the developer of the Ecommerce module:

> It is most likely the URL which you are being redirected to on Paypal.
> The old method which 3.x uses has been removed from use on PayPal.
>
> You will need to update the url to https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/
> webscr which should fix the problem

That did it.


From randalrust at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 06:04:18 2008
From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:04:18 -0500
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812120357o6bead905v78c6a48154468e95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>
	<a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
	<177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<177c0a10812120357o6bead905v78c6a48154468e95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9caffe50812120404n3b13f6c1xde19f0cb4c568e07@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Fred Jones <fredthejonester at gmail.com> wrote:

> Got the answer from the developer of the Ecommerce module:

And your client likely got an email from PayPal that told them this
was going to happen. In other words, if the client comes to you and
wants to know how this happened without you knowing, that's your
answer. It's not your PayPal account.

-- 
Randal Rust
R.Squared Communications
www.r2communications.com
614-370-0036


From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com  Fri Dec 12 07:21:52 2008
From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:21:52 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net>
Message-ID: <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>

Martyn wrote:
> I am converting my website from fixed width 800px, it was all going well 
> until I edited the Nav bar, I have formatted all the text in ems.
> 
> I obviously I don't want the Nav bar to wrap down with smaller viewports 
> and I have used Nowrap, but this just goes off screen.

Is it really true that you would want tiny text instead of wrapping 
navigation on a very narrow viewport?

> Is there anyway to scale text to the viewport size as with images. I 
> have created all the divs as 100% etc.

Basically no - not with pure CSS 2.1 anyhow.

You can't declare a font height that's a fixed proportion of the 
viewport width. Font heights are essentially always expressed either 
relative to some other (base) font height ( %, em, ex, or, more roughly, 
keywords ) or relative to whatever the application is treating as a 
pixel ( px ).

As the viewport is zoomed (in a simple zoom function), text and boxes 
will zoom by the same proportion, no matter how their measurements are 
specified.

As the base font size is changed, font heights specified in %, em, ex, 
keywords, and (except in IE) px will change proportionally. Boxes sized 
in em or ex will also change proportionally, but not boxes sized in % or px.

As the viewport is widened, %, em, ex, keywords, and px font heights 
will all remain precisely the same, while boxes sized in % that are 
ultimately relative to the viewport will expand. (The % length of boxes 
is relative to containers and has no relationship to font height %.)

The picture can be complicated by UA correctives like minimum font sizes 
(CSS 2.1 suggests 9px for starters) and Opera's fit-to-width 
functionality. Note that for narrower viewports, minimum font size might 
well be a factor for your navigation.

The CSS3 draft includes proposals for a calc() function and a vw length 
unit that represents the viewport width:

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#lengths

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc

That would allow you to suggest a font height shrink as viewport width 
increases - up to whatever the user's specified minimum font size is.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


From hmiller at cfpress.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 07:55:33 2008
From: hmiller at cfpress.co.uk (Hugh Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:55:33 +0000
Subject: [thelist] PayPal Gone Haywire?
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812111129g31362efcve6ae4ab61cddb283@mail.gmail.com>	<a9caffe50812111147n22ffeda5x83cacf1c9ddf3c4f@mail.gmail.com>
	<177c0a10812111153g1672dfd0tda93a1c870fc27d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49426D55.4000203@cfpress.co.uk>

<tip type="Paypal" author="Hugh Miller">
If you ever need to contact Paypal customer support in the UK, it is pretty much impossible over the phone (just circuits you around and eventually tells you to go to your profile.

If you say the word 'help' three times you will be transferred to an operator.

</tip>

Fred Jones wrote:
>> Do you have a test or development environment where you have a
>> duplicate of the application set up, so that you can test it out to
>> see if you can duplicate and debug without affecting the live
>> environment?
>>     
>
> Right, good idea. Maybe the DB changed, because the code sure
> didn't--no one has access to it to but me! :)
>   

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From webdev.terion at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 07:59:34 2008
From: webdev.terion at gmail.com (Terion Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:59:34 -0600
Subject: [thelist] PHP Object-orientated programming - book
	recommendation
In-Reply-To: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B871C2B0@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
References: <335D08DA-931C-4F7C-A126-499C654ACC27@geois.de>
	<6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB16B871C2B0@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net>
Message-ID: <37405f850812120559w35d9ac38y9c4c0a33ea8d8ab6@mail.gmail.com>

I've recently started buying a few books on php and everyone I asked
suggested the O'Reilly books, just got "Web Database Applications w/PHP and
MySQL" by them, just came yesterday and I haven't really started in it yet,
but seems lots of programmers do reccomend the O'Reilly's.
Terion

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Luther, Ron <Ron.Luther at hp.com> wrote:

> Stefan Schwarzer asked for PHP literature recommendations.
>
>
> Hi Stefan,
>
> I haven't read it (yet) but the next time I'm in a bookstore I plan to
> peruse the new "Professional LAMP" book from Wrox.  The reviews I have
> looked over are very positive ... especially so if you are mostly interested
> in the 'P' portion of LAMP.
>
> But I'm mostly interested because one of the co-authors is evolt's own Matt
> Warden!  Woooot!  ;-P
>
> HTH,
> RonL.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 09:44:53 2008
From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:44:53 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net> <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <4eedb92a0812120744j78a20203y920a2aadaf11efeb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:21 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
<bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com> wrote:

> The CSS3 draft includes proposals for a calc() function and a vw length
> unit that represents the viewport width:

And yet people criticized Netscape 4's JSSS -- JavaScript Style Sheets --
which let you do exactly that (among other things) 10+ years ago.

Too funny...
-- 
Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com


From Sales at medes.net  Fri Dec 12 10:10:34 2008
From: Sales at medes.net (Martyn)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:10:34 -0000
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net> <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48CA84E0.4060202@medes.net>



Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
> Martyn wrote:
>   
>> I am converting my website from fixed width 800px, it was all going well 
>> until I edited the Nav bar, I have formatted all the text in ems.
>>
>> I obviously I don't want the Nav bar to wrap down with smaller viewports 
>> and I have used Nowrap, but this just goes off screen.
>>     
>
> Is it really true that you would want tiny text instead of wrapping 
> navigation on a very narrow viewport?
>   
The minimum my site has ever been viewed at is 640 as far as I can, tell 
obviously I don't know the monitor size this was viewed on if the 
navigation wraps it looks terrible the site is currently built as 800 
(www.medes.org.uk) but I dislike the large white areas at the sides when 
viewed at higher resolutions.


>> Is there anyway to scale text to the viewport size as with images. I 
>> have created all the divs as 100% etc.
>>     
>
> Basically no - not with pure CSS 2.1 anyhow.
>   
You seem to suggest there is a current way outside CSS 2.1? did you mean 
CSS 3

Cheers

Martyn



From ekm at seastorm.com  Fri Dec 12 10:07:36 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:07:36 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <4eedb92a0812120744j78a20203y920a2aadaf11efeb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net> <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
	<4eedb92a0812120744j78a20203y920a2aadaf11efeb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49428C48.2000702@seastorm.com>

Hassan Schroeder wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:21 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
> <bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The CSS3 draft includes proposals for a calc() function and a vw length
>> unit that represents the viewport width:
> 
> And yet people criticized Netscape 4's JSSS -- JavaScript Style Sheets --
> which let you do exactly that (among other things) 10+ years ago.

Which people? Criticized for what?

Though I'm not deeply familiar with the inner workings of W3C, It's hard 
for me to imagine that, in the 90s, the Microsoft people would have let 
a Netscape-created proposal pass uncriticized, and vice versa.

1996 JSSS proposal
http://www.w3.org/Submission/1996/1/WD-jsss-960822

and earlier....
"The downside is that this is all possible only with Netscape 4.0, 
currently available as a beta evaluation product. While cascading style 
sheets are formally defined by the World Wide Web Consortium as a 
Recommended Standard, JavaScript Style Sheets are defined and controlled 
by Netscape."
http://sunsite.uakom.sk/sunworldonline/swol-04-1997/swol-04-webmaster.html

ah, Netscape 4.

Erika




From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 10:37:07 2008
From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:37:07 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <49428C48.2000702@seastorm.com>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net> <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
	<4eedb92a0812120744j78a20203y920a2aadaf11efeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<49428C48.2000702@seastorm.com>
Message-ID: <4eedb92a0812120837r6db2ea4ex61dd33518c44eab9@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Erika <ekm at seastorm.com> wrote:

> Which people? Criticized for what?

I refuse to name names -- mainly because at this point I have zero
idea -- but the basic theme was, IIRC, the mixing of "behavior" with
"presentation", i.e., 'style' values being dynamically recomputed.

Water under the bridge...

-- 
Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com


From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com  Fri Dec 12 11:10:26 2008
From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:10:26 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Scaling text
In-Reply-To: <48CA84E0.4060202@medes.net>
References: <4941C743.3040908@medes.net> <49426570.1090508@googlemail.com>
	<48CA84E0.4060202@medes.net>
Message-ID: <49429B02.5000009@googlemail.com>

Martyn wrote:
> The minimum my site has ever been viewed at is 640 as far as I can, tell 
> obviously I don't know the monitor size this was viewed on if the 
> navigation wraps it looks terrible the site is currently built as 800 
> (www.medes.org.uk) but I dislike the large white areas at the sides when 
> viewed at higher resolutions.

Sounds like you'll may want to specify min-width: 640px; on your root 
container so that it will scroll in smaller viewports - in supporting 
browsers (not IE6).

> You seem to suggest there is a current way outside CSS 2.1? did you mean 
> CSS 3

Actually, I meant JS interaction with the CSSOM.

I elaborated some CSS3 proposals to let you do the same thing. They are 
unlikely to have wide support at this early juncture, if any.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis



From martin at easyweb.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 18:23:29 2008
From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 00:23:29 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>
	<bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB494DC9-93D3-4C89-884E-20FC7F9EF0AB@easyweb.co.uk>


On 12 Dec 2008, at 03:53, UIT DEV wrote:

> You said "Pretty much all trades in construction are slashing their  
> rates
> right now, to get work in the door." and I do agree, however, these  
> same
> people are also going to get you on the way out the door.  They're not
> slashing much, if at all.  :-)   The turth is, the economics of the  
> issue is
> that we can not slash our prices and continue to put food on our  
> plates -
> the cost of food hasnt come down (along with the gas prices, WHICH,  
> was the
> reason given to us that food skyrocketed).  Hmm..    I've had  
> several home
> repair people in my house in the past month for various issues and  
> none have
> changed their rates.  When I asked them if they will, they say not at
> all.    I've also had the need to consult with an attorney and her  
> rates
> have not budged at all.  Nor shall they.

Which is fine, as long as they have the demand. When they don't have  
the demand, and yet continue to have their fixed costs, they will be  
faced with a choice: cut prices, or fail to pay their bills (aka 'give  
up and go do something else')

The law of supply & demand doesn't go away by wishing.

> Also,   " the quality of what we're producing is actually pretty  
> damned good
> - in some of our projects significantly outstripping teams that are  
> local -
> I think you're operating on hearsay rather than experience."
>
> I beg to differ.  I've personally had to correct tons of code that  
> has been
> developed by "teams in India"

Depends on who they are and how they are managed (which I believe was  
my original point). And I've seen piles of crap produced by people in  
developed countries too; to assume that because you're in a developed  
country, you're automatically going to be better is arrogant at best,  
blinkered on average, and outright insulting at worst.

And believe me, even if the initial quality is lower, getting it to  
the point of 'good enough' still costs a metric buttload less than  
paying your pie in the sky high wages. In an environment where costs  
are being squeezed across the board, assuming that you have a right to  
a job is no better than childish wishful thinking.

> Also, no one wants to admit that this outsourcing

psst - outsourcing != offshoring.

> The
> politicians wonder where the tax base went.  The economists wonder  
> where the
> jobs went.  No one wants to admit that we've destroyed our economy  
> by giving
> jobs away and placing highly skilled people onto the unemployment  
> lines.

*Sigh* again, we're talking as if those jobs are a permanent fixture  
that's yours by birthright. Your country managed without software jobs  
before. It managed when previously wellpaid jobs went to cheaper  
labour pools (not always overseas either), in cycles that repeated and  
repeated. It did so by inventing new stuff, rather than wishing for  
the old stuff back again.


> I am one of them.  Not only is my salary ZERO now, my tax revenue
> contribution to my State and to my country is ZERO.   My spending  
> power is
> ZERO.  My contribution to the local and regional economies - where I  
> used to
> be part of that stimulation of those economies, is ZERO.   And you can
> mulitply me by thousands.   This has a tremendous impact on our  
> nation but
> no one wants to discuss it.

All you're doing is complaining about it, Canute-like, without seeing  
that this has been a trend for many decades now. So when you're done  
talking about that river in Egypt[1], by all means come back and  
discuss it.

> So I am on my own and I am not going to charge $11/hr to develop  
> software
> when I used to get paid $44/hr, plus benefits and such.

Well, that's your choice. If the going rate is $11/hr, and you don't  
want it, fine. You can sit on your backside and wish for the old days  
instead. Won't bring them back, but hey, if it keeps you off the  
streets, on you go.

Cheers
Martin

[1] De-Ni[a]le
--
 > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter
 > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/







From ekm at seastorm.com  Sun Dec 14 01:09:27 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:09:27 -0800
Subject: [thelist] psst!
Message-ID: <4944B127.7070008@seastorm.com>

Evolt.org turns 10 !

http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=2256155

E


From fredthejonester at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 13:03:28 2008
From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:03:28 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Convert Text to Image in PHP
Message-ID: <177c0a10812141103q2d450ccq9bb189e6928a844a@mail.gmail.com>

I have a need to convert styled text into an image format using PHP.
Specifically, I need to take this text, which I could convert into
either HTML or any other format (it's different fields and each is
actually plain text but has a fixed output format we need in the
image) and create an image of some sort (JPG,PNG etc.). So I might
have a title and a teaser and we want the title to be 20pt red text
and the teaser to be 30 pixels lower and in 12px black text.

Then I need to attach this image to another image of the same height,
so that they sit side by side and create one large, wide image.

I am doing this because then we will feed a set of these into
SlideShowPro [1] to create a slideshow out of the images. Yes, we
could use jQuery Carousel instead but the effects in SlideShowPro are
much nicer. :)

My Flash guy says he doesn't know how exactly he could integrate
actual text into the tool, so I said that I could probably convert it
first into an image and then just send him those images. I have never
done this before and I see there are a few tools available for our
Linux server, such as ImageMagick or GD. I think GD and associated
"built-in" PHP functions should be able to handle this, but I wanted
to ask for any thoughts.

Thanks,
Fred
[1] http://slideshowpro.net


From ekm at seastorm.com  Sun Dec 14 14:29:04 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:29:04 -0800
Subject: [thelist] page width trend - 800 or 1024 or other?
In-Reply-To: <494156A8.7030706@ij.net>
References: <493FEFA7.9020406@dottedi.biz>
	<49412522.8080405@ij.net>	<49412DB2.9080708@seastorm.com>
	<494156A8.7030706@ij.net>
Message-ID: <49456C90.9030402@seastorm.com>

Felix Miata wrote:
> I think as long as sites
> like http://www.positioniseverything.net/ (px fixed width, 90% Verdana),
> http://evolt.org/ (px fixed width nav, no overall width constraint, 80%
> font-size on body) and http://www.alistapart.com/ (px fixed widths, .8125
> Verdana on body) fail to be good examples of how it can be done, I can't see
> many major sites materially deviating from the status quo. 

Agreed.  This is partly why I asked the question. It seems like creating 
a good flexible/fluid layout, and having it get a good general response 
is more challenging than ever. http://www.alistapart.com to my 
recollection, went from a frameset to a fluid layout, and *then* moved 
from fluid to a fixed width.  Also I was asking the question because I 
was experimenting with front-end designs for evolt.org.

Regarding evolt.org.

1. I thought someone had put a max-width on it.  Someone should do that.

2. evolt.org is running a "temporary" design that IIRC was created in 
2002 and coded in 2005.  http://lists.evolt.org and 
http://browsers.evolt.org are still running in the front-end from 2000.

3. It's a good time to revamp the front-end -- it has been for a few 
years now. However, in trying to float ideas over the past few months, 
many responders have voiced a desire for evolt.org to do more than 
revamp the front end, for us to rethink our place in the world.

So  I hope that everyone reading this will take a minute to fill out the 
brief survey here: http://tinyurl.com/5frkd7 to help us think through 
the process.  The final questions are big picture questions.

I would also say that this list is a perfectly fine place to have the 
big picture discussion as well if anyone wants to weigh in (probably 
under a new subject header).

How is evolt.org going to regain and retain relevance as a web builders' 
resource?  (I mean "web builder" in the sense of building content, 
communication, business, and meaning, not just tech stuff.)

>> If you have screenshots of more complex sites that successfully 
>> implement what you consider to be *good* design practices (sizes not 
>> dependent on px), do you mind sharing those?
> 
> http://cssliquid.com/ may be a place to start with examples. I've not tried
> per se to collect "complex" sites. The screenshots I have are mostly in
> http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/ and its subdirs, but they are far more "what's wrong"
> shots than "what's good". Does anything in
> http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ShowCase fill the bill? If you find
> something that isn't there and should be, you can put it there. 

Thanks, Felix, I've bookmarked your post in the archives.

Erika






From bobm at dottedi.biz  Sun Dec 14 14:37:07 2008
From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:37:07 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Convert Text to Image in PHP
In-Reply-To: <177c0a10812141103q2d450ccq9bb189e6928a844a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812141103q2d450ccq9bb189e6928a844a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49456E73.8050808@dottedi.biz>

I have not used this yet, but here's a jQuery plug-in that might help:

http://jquery.thewikies.com/sifr/#examples

ImageMagick should be able to do this via convert. I played with creating text a while go just to see, but didn't have a live need.

http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/text/

convert -background floralwhite -fill "#568100" -size 200x label:"Fred Jones" fred_jones.png

convert -background floralwhite -fill "#568100" -size x100 label:"Fred Jones" fred_jones2.png

in PHP:

you can use system

system ("convert ...");

-Bob


Fred Jones wrote:
> I have a need to convert styled text into an image format using PHP.
> Specifically, I need to take this text, which I could convert into
> either HTML or any other format (it's different fields and each is
> actually plain text but has a fixed output format we need in the
> image) and create an image of some sort (JPG,PNG etc.). So I might
> have a title and a teaser and we want the title to be 20pt red text
> and the teaser to be 30 pixels lower and in 12px black text.
> 
> Then I need to attach this image to another image of the same height,
> so that they sit side by side and create one large, wide image.
> 
> I am doing this because then we will feed a set of these into
> SlideShowPro [1] to create a slideshow out of the images. Yes, we
> could use jQuery Carousel instead but the effects in SlideShowPro are
> much nicer. :)
> 
> My Flash guy says he doesn't know how exactly he could integrate
> actual text into the tool, so I said that I could probably convert it
> first into an image and then just send him those images. I have never
> done this before and I see there are a few tools available for our
> Linux server, such as ImageMagick or GD. I think GD and associated
> "built-in" PHP functions should be able to handle this, but I wanted
> to ask for any thoughts.
> 
> Thanks,
> Fred
> [1] http://slideshowpro.net


-- 
Bob Meetin
www.dottedi.biz
303-926-0167

Hook up with me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Plaxo Pulse and Bebo
or catch my blog at www.dottedi.biz/blog.php

Standards - you gotta love em - there are so many to choose from!


From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Sun Dec 14 22:19:38 2008
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:19:38 +1100
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>
	<bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>
	<bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897F1DD40E6@kjserver3.kjhome.local>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]
> On Behalf Of UIT DEV
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Financial Situation
> 
> Also, no one wants to admit that this outsourcing is one of the nasty horns
> on this beast of a recession we've got brewing.  Its not just the housing
> bubble, the mere fact that hundreds of thousands of jobs have been given
> away (in many fields, not just coding) and no one wants to discuss it.   The
> politicians wonder where the tax base went.  The economists wonder where the
> jobs went.  No one wants to admit that we've destroyed our economy by giving
> jobs away and placing highly skilled people onto the unemployment lines.

I'm going to have to agree with Martin here. The above is simply uninformed drivel. Economists don't wonder where the jobs went - they know exactly what's going on. Specialisation has been a feature of economies for hundreds of years. Jobs have been concentrated in places of comparative advantage for hundreds of years.

Jobs of all sorts of things have moved between towns, states and now countries. And yet, despite the vast amount of food, physical goods and services now performed in other countries, most developed countries don't have an unemployment rate much above 10%. Because new jobs, which require new skills and have higher barriers to entry, come along to replace them.

> I am one of them.  Not only is my salary ZERO now, my tax revenue
> contribution to my State and to my country is ZERO.   My spending power is
> ZERO.  My contribution to the local and regional economies - where I used to
> be part of that stimulation of those economies, is ZERO. 

It appears you have a product that people don't want to buy then. Perhaps you should be producing something else, or cutting your prices or something...

> So I am on my own and I am not going to charge $11/hr to develop software
> when I used to get paid $44/hr, plus benefits and such.

Again - you might want to produce something that people value at $44/hour. For the same reason that GM can't sell cars at prices people aren't prepared to pay, it seems you are selling services that people don't see the value in. You might want to sell something that's of higher value at $44/hour+benefits. That's the way the market works...

Cheers
Ken


From ekm at seastorm.com  Sun Dec 14 23:47:57 2008
From: ekm at seastorm.com (Erika)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:47:57 -0800
Subject: [thelist] Financial Situation
In-Reply-To: <A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897F1DD40E6@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
References: <177c0a10812101140n7902617aq71b540cc3e4f444e@mail.gmail.com>	<bcd44960812111134s47748400g8f1a1888da63de57@mail.gmail.com>	<6D913DA8-B32E-449F-9A4A-CCEAA858AFCE@easyweb.co.uk>	<bcd44960812111953i4f712ccbg8429a96f904b4b0f@mail.gmail.com>
	<A0EAC86EA0438A4B906B99BA3415893897F1DD40E6@kjserver3.kjhome.local>
Message-ID: <4945EF8D.20106@seastorm.com>

Ken Schaefer wrote:
>you might want to produce something that people value at $44/hour. 

There is, btw, a lot of wiggle room between $11/hr (not really a living 
wage in my town, if you have a family to support) and $44/hr (more than 
enough, unless you have a lot of debt).

Other factors, like, can you keep a roof over your head, can you put 
food on the table, can you pay your medical bills, strongly influence 
ability to ride out a recession.

It's not easy to change careers, or necessarily well-advised.  I have a 
  friend who was laid off from a high-paying job in the dot com crash. 
She went back to school (acquiring debt) to gain skills in a new "more 
valued" field... only to find that in *this* recession, her *new* field 
is getting hit first.

I say, do what you love to do and put money second.

Erika