[thechat] Fish do feel pain
Luther, Ron
Ron.Luther at hp.com
Fri May 2 08:00:39 CDT 2003
Mike Migurski noted that:
>>the leap from responsiveness to damaging physical stimuli, to subjective
>>experience of pain is a huge one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Mike,
Sorry - been busy lately, didn't get a chance to get back to this.
Why do you say that? I would think that would be a (perhaps rather
minimalist) definition of what it means to feel pain.
>>One can be proven objectively, the other can't. I'd imagine that to
>>"feel pain" in a human sense is as dependent on language and a sense
>>of individual self as it is on certain expected movements and behaviors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll agree that responsiveness can be demonstrated objectively. I'll
also note that 'degree of pain' is a very subjective and individual
experience.
<aside>I was in a maternity ward recently, (visiting the grandbaby twins),
where there were posters on the walls in the rooms outlining a 10 point
"scale of pain" that the patients were supposed to use in communicating
to the nurses. e.g. "It Hurts!" "Okay, does it hurt '4' or does it hurt
'8'?" I found it rather fascinating. {I'll also try not to tangentially
spin off into cultural rites involving pain or societal and sexist
attitudes alluding to the endurance of pain as a virtue ... but it won't
be easy.}</aside>
I'll also note a distinction between physical pain and emotional pain ...
but also suggest that long term behavioral studies of some animals,
notably chimps, might suggest that they experience emotional distress.
I'm not aware of any similar studies for fish.
>>Sunflowers move in response to the direction of the sun - does this
>>mean they can 'see' ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A bit off track ... but I'll bite anyway! ;-) "Maybe". What does it mean
to see? Some insects and some bats 'see' into the infrared 'seeing' colors
and patterns on flowers that we (without mechanical aid) are blind to.
Does that mean we can't see? Boas, Pythons, and 'Pit' Vipers also have
sensors in their lips that also allow them to 'see' into the infrared and
hunt those nasty warm-blooded critters at night by detecting their body heat.
I might do better distinguishing between colors ... but the average red tailed
hawk has *much* better resolution for distinguishing details at a distance
that I do. Which of us 'sees' better?
Whales, dogs, bats, and probably dolphins 'hear' Ultra-Low and/or Ultra-High
frequencies that we can't (without mechanical aid) hear. Owls have one ear
located higher on their head than the other. This allows them to 'triangulate'
on those nosy mice scurrying through the weeds. (Kind of a hearing equivalent
of binocular vision ... a hearing version of 'depth perception'.) Egad, I'm
'deaf' too! ;-)
I smell bad ... wait ... that didn't come right ... dogs, snakes (with their
'Jacobson organ'), and many other creatures have a much 'better' sense of
smell than humans do.
Tokay geckos, some spiders, and an average house fly can detect irregularities
in a sheet of 'smooth' glass that we are clueless about. So much for 'touch'!
That leaves 'taste' as the last sense ... got me there ... I'm pretty sure
there are animals with a more 'refined' sense of taste than we have - but
I don't recall coming across any research demonstrating that. {I imagine
Anubis will send many dog owners straight to hell for feeding them years and
years of 'kibbles and bits' should their sense of taste prove better than
ours!} ;-)
Ah ... but is it the last sense? Fish (with their lateral line) and birds
(some IIRC with magnetic bits embedded in their brains) detect subtle
differences in magnetic fields that [conjecture] probably aid them in
migration. Magnetic field differences that we are generally oblivious
to. Some eels and fishes can detect the weak electrical currents produced
by living organisms ... in some cases 'short-lived' organisms ... since they
use this sense to hunt their prey.
Fun Stuff!
RonL.
(Former zoo docent)
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