[thelist] Tables vs Layers
Stevens, Sharon
StevenS at prose.dpi.qld.gov.au
Fri Sep 15 01:21:32 CDT 2000
I fully understand your points aardvark, sorry if my points on this
came across as incoherent and snippy - I'm tired and stressed atm I've got a
launch of the new publishing system in 2 weeks about 5 weeks worth of work
to do for the launch and a publishing system that is crashing every few
hours.
> > From: Stevens, Sharon
> > >
> > no I think the main key point is
> > accessibility and tables don't fit
> > this mould
>
> now this i heartily disagree with... for instance, how will
> a screen reader interpret a table? how will it interpret
> layers? in both cases, quite well if the code is good... if
> i use DW, for instance, i can create my content bottom-up
> and then lay out the divs to *display* top to bottom... so
> firing it up in Lynx (just an example we can all test) would
> result in a page whose content is all over the place... same
> goes for tables if i don't consider the order of my cells...
> accessibility has less to do with a specific markup style
> and more to do with how it's coded...
>
I was talking about designing the whole site in tables just for the
layout. I'm currently on contract to a Govt dept and they are watching what
is happening in the states about the accessibility laws - that is why the
site is in the process of moving away from frames. Screen readers will read
tables if they are "coded" property - as in titles etc. As with how they
interpret layers I assume the layout would be similar to if the JS was
turned off - I'm not sure - I've not had a chance to check this out.
> bad code is bad code, regardless how you do it...
yep and I just *love* fixing bad code ;o)
> as for your other email:
>
> > I hate designing with tables - I'm having a seriously
> hard time on
> > the contract I'm on at the moment because the company that
> created our
> > publishing package knew nothing about design and have
> designed the site
> > utilising tables (and poorly designed ones at that), I'm
> not looking forward
>
> using tables in and of itself is not bad design, or even bad
> code... poorly-coded tables can be bad, but you only
> indicate that their tables are bad *after* you've claimed
> tables in general are bad... did they have a reason for
> using tables? did you ask them? i know i wouldn't change a
> handed-off CSS-P design to tables without a damn good
> reason, so hopefully they had a reason or two instead of
> just personal preference...
>
1. their tables designs are bad (we have tried re-designing them to
be a bit cleaner and less chunkier but gave up after 2 days) - there is a
snip of their table layout below
2. they we're never told to use tables - they were given mockup jpgs
and used a splicer to split the pages (including originally splitting the
logo into 4 pieces - which we've now changed!) and presented the pages to us
after they had done about $20K worth of work on it and to top it off - they
had stated the DTD to be strict!!!!!!!!!!!! not to mention they are 12
months behind schedule and we've gone through 5 project managers in the last
2 years.
> > to having to come back here next financial year (when
> they've got money to
> > pay me again) and converting the tables to useable layers
> to fit with
> > HTML4.01 strict.
>
> why would you re-code it? why would you bill the client to
> make changes that to them, give them no extra features or
> capability? who's to say they didn't want them converted so
> that they could maintain them? or to address some browser
> incompatibilities? changing the code on their dime to
> satisfy your own coding preferences is not good karma...
> changing it because it offers tangible benefits, and the
> client understands and approves them, is quite alright...
the client wants to have layers - I've put no input into this - I'm
just the monkey in this system
> on top of that, why HTML 4.01 Strict? what advantages does
> it offer the client (not you) or the client's site over
> Transitional? will some feature of the site not work with
> transitional? does the client want strict, or even know
> what strict is? who are the users, anyway? are any of them
> NN users? or pre 4.x users? are you aware precisely how
> the site degrades through testing? and if there are
> problems, does the client know?
1. because *they* (my boss's) want 4.01 strict (I think xhtml would
be better - they may decide by the time they've got money for me to go down
that path - it is their choice)
2. the site has been designed for gen 4 and above browsers (they've
been monitoring the level of browsers visiting the site over the last 2
years watching the technology level)
3. there are probs with NN rendering the drop down box which I'm
trying to fix
> ultimately, it's about designing for your audience, as well
> as your client... if your client has a good cross-section of
> browsers in their user base, and their identity and page
> design are important to them, why not use tables to support
> the older browsers and guarantee more predictable rendering
> for all?
I came into the whole publishing system "fun" nearly 2 years into
the system design. When I read the system specs my first question was - if
you are going for 4 transitional and gen 4 and above browsers why are you
designing for a 640x480 res?
> i have no problems with CSS-P as a standard, but without
> full or correct support, i have a problem implementing it...
> given a captive audience (intranet, for example), i'm all
> for it...
nothing personal against my bosses here but being a govt dept they
have "moved" into their managers positions not by their skillset (well to a
small point) but almost by who applied for the job - it seems that all the
staff that want to get ahead don't stick around govt for too long (we've
lost 1 great IT boy to a better paying job)
Well I'm off to brave the traffic and go watch the opening ceremony
on a big screen tv and lots of alkihole
'avagoodweekend
Schaz
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