[thelist] From PHP to...? (fwd)

Thu Feb 22 00:40:13 CST 2001

Object Oriented programming is great way to approach the planning of any
large application or even web site. My only problem is that Java, Fusebox or
whatever else is that the planners try to cram it down programmers throats
by changing terminology to best suite OO programming (it's a function NOT a
method!) and leave it at that. I say let the project managers think about
objects, methods, fuses, or trees and leave the programming to programmers.
Most of the advantages of the OO model are in the business world where code
reuse means more profits. Any development house should have a project
manager to break down the individual components of an application for the
coders. Forcing the coders to deal with changed terminology because a bunch
of project managers developed a language is just the opposite. It is very
inefficient! A language like C, where OO programming is optional seems to be
superior in all regards. You do not penalize a developer by making them
program in a certain way, which leads to greater creativity and by proxy,
productivity. This is what makes HTML so popular. There is no "proper" way
to code.

My .03  (inflation sucks ;-))

jon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fuller" <mfuller at ihets.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] From PHP to...? (fwd)

> Hello,
>
> I am not on this list, so if this is a breach of protocol, I
> apologize. But I was forwarded this email and thought I would deposit my
> $.02
>
> I have been a PHP programmer for the past few years. I am also a recent
> convert to OO. As in religion, the biggest zealots are those recently
> converted. Now I still like PHP, and if you just want to create simple
> dynamic HTML or web applications it is a great tool. Java IS more complex.
> But if you develop large applications in the "proper" way - 3+ layers
> (presentation, business logic, database) I believe that OO is the correct
> approach (most of the time anyway). Also as Eric mentioned you can create
> your business objects in Java and then use JSP to access them. This will
> also allow you to reuse the business objects if you need to create a
> desktop version of the application (you just have to create the a
> different presentatin layer).
>
> Another point, someone told me if you gave him a choice between technology
> X and technology Y. And if X was slightly techically better that Y, but Y
> appear to be well support and X was used by a relatively few people, then
> he'll pick Y. Java has a lot of support in the community and in tools. PHP
> has a great community but few tools.
>
> Now there are people (including people who work for me) who will disagree
> with me and say you can create large PHP applications. True, you can, but
> I believe you must be much more vigilent in order to write good code.
>
> Now as for those people who work me, I must convert them to the Church of
> OO.
>
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:28:12 +0000
> > From: Eric Cestari <eric at ohmforce.com>
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: Re: [thelist] From PHP to...?
> >
> > Hi Hendrick & Steve,
> >
> > Strange thing. I am currently about to start serious Servlet
> > programming. And my background _is_ PHP.
> > Just to say : "I am concerned by your question" !
> >
> > Let aside intranet & internet development, we know that Java is a tool
> > of choice for companies to build their business tools and core
> > applications. The advantage or servlets is obvious : integration of
> > these objects within the website is more straight forward with a Java
> > based solution (using RMI IIOP or whatever).
> > I guess this is one point, maybe the most important.
> >
> > Afterwards, well, Java is pure OO, to the difference of PHP, which only
> > has a sugar coating OO.
> > Thus if you want rock solid OO, well Java's here for you.
> >
> > Beans are great ! This is reusability. There's no equivalent in PHP.
> > Maybe with the PEAR project, we might find something close to this.
> >
> > Damn, I had one more good thing to say about servlet, but ... it did not
> > wait for me to type it :(
> >
> > I enjoy PHP, though :)
> > I tried something a few month ago using PHP _and_ Java, 'twas calling
> > Java classes with PHP. That was pretty neat, indeed. (I might play some
> > more with it one day)
> >
> > BTW, I was wondering if servlet hosting existed, in the wild (for free
> > or nearly free) ?
> > (I do have my container running at home, but that's no production site)
> > Maybe at evolt.org, one day ? :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Eric
> >
> > Steve Cook wrote:
> > >
> > > Hej Hendrick,
> > >
> > > Excellent question! I don't know the answer but I have some opinions
> > > regarding this. My experience is in Perl / ASP (VBScript) / PHP. I've
had
> > > very little contact with Java, especially on the server side, but the
> > > contact I have had makes me question what the major gains are with
Java
> > > servlets and JSPs.
> > >
> > > I'm currently evaluating some Java Servlet code for a book chapter.
Setting
> > > up a Java Server was pretty straightforward with Allaire's JRun
developers
> > > edition. The fun seems to stop there though! I'll admit that I haven't
gone
> > > through the rigmarole of learning the directory layouts, the
differences
> > > between servlets, jsp, Jini etc (in more than the most base levels),
but it
> > > looks hellishly overcomplicated to me.
> > >
> > > I guess that at the end of the day, server side Java can accomplish
pretty
> > > much anything that can be accomplished with other forms of serverside
> > > programming. I guess that if one is predisposed to programming in Java
(or
> > > is used to C++) then it's a wonderful environment. What I'm very
unsure
> > > about though is whether serverside Java can do anything extra that
would
> > > make it worthwhile for the non-Java programmer to change over. I would
like
> > > to hope so, but in all the conversations I've ever had about it I've
not yet
> > > heard one single point that would make me consider taking the time to
learn
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I would LOVE to hear of some really good reasons though. Perhaps
someone
> > > here has been programming in this environment long enough to be able
to
> > > explain what the advantages are?
> > >
> > > .steve
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Hendrik Mans [mailto:hendrik at mans.de]
> > > > Sent: den 21 februari 2001 15:17
> > > > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > > > Subject: [thelist] From PHP to...?
> > > <SNIP>
> > > >
> > > > So, to anyone on this list who knows both languages/platforms
> > > > and possibly
> > > > even made this jump him/herself before: can you tell me what
> > > > changes (in
> > > > terms of development paradigm) I can expect when I move from
> > > > PHP to Java?
> > > > Are there any "must have" books/HOWTOs/websites I should
buy/read/know
> > > > about? And, most importantly, is this jump actually worth it?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Hendrik
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> >
> > --
> > ==================================+========================
> > Eric Cestari                      |               Ohm Force
> > Chief Web Designer                |  Digital Audio Software
> > mailto:eric.cestari at ohmforce.com  | http://www.ohmforce.com
> > ==================================+========================
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
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