[thelist] Old Browsers old Software, cut bait and move on.

aardvark roselli at earthlink.net
Thu Jul 12 02:01:40 CDT 2001


> From: "Mark Cheng" <mark.cheng at ranger.com.au>
> >
> >clearly some people aren't comfortable designing for accessibility or
> >degradability (not just old browsers, as everyone likes to frame
> >it)... so, instead of taking the time to learn, or even care, they
> >just write it off as frivolous and a waste of time... it smacks of
> >laziness...
> 
> ahem.  accessibility is an entirely different issue.  I strongly
> believe in accessability.  I just don't think that degradeability is
> all it is cracked up to be.  If a web designer wants to learn

re-read what i said, it isn't just about old browsers... if you believe 
in accessibility, then it will work in older browsers... therefore, it 
degrades... how well it degrades is a function of how well you code 
(or choose to code)...

> everything about say, ie55, how to manipulate the DOM with JS, use
> ASP, why should they not design to that, if they and the client are
> happy?

because that's pretty narrow and they cannot even advise the client 
very well without the experience doing it... what about other 
clients?  is that kind of client an endless revenue source?

> Those people who know the intricacies of nn4.x are experts in their
> field. They probably couldn't design an ie55 specific site as
> efficiently as someone who devoted their learning solely to that.  Why
> say that someone who is an expert in ie55 is lazy?

i'm saying anyone who doesn't care to learn how to code 
accessible, degradable pages is copping out when they say that 
no one uses that browser... their comments support that assertion, 
since they rarely know anything about their audience beyond the 
one stat they read that puts browsers like NN4 in the 10% pile...

> >design for the audience... use the client to guide you, use your
> >experience and skill to make it work... and if you don't know how to
> >do something, learn it, don't run away...
> 
> for every business, time learning is time not earning.  The old rule :
> 80% of revenue from 20 largest customers.  Learn what you need to keep
> them happy.

that's too bad... here we budget training and education time... we 
expect our staff to constantly learn... we don't expect to build just 
what makes the client happy, we want to grow with them and guide 
them on newer and better things...

but once you learn how to build something that degrades, what you 
learn tends to not change... you learn it once and lean on it for a 
very long time... you learn the IE5.5 DOM and you have to re-learn 
it for IE6... seems like a no-brainer to take some time to learn 
something you can always call on...

> Sorry, but I don't see how learning to code for nn4.x is going to help
> any developer grow in a useful way.  Spend the time learning XML, ASP,
> Coldfusion instead.

where have i said coding for NN4.x is a goal?  it's not... knowing 
how to build pages that degrade and are accessible is the 
message, which apparently everyone re-reads as "code for 
NN2/3/4"... perhaps because it's easier to argue that than it is to 
explain why someone would refuse to learn a little something...

and let's not foget that CF and ASP, and even XML right now, is all 
server-side... not the same thing...

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if it's that senstive, try some anbesol...





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