Hey John I appreciate the response! I'm concerned though about forcing people to go out of their way from viewing the site to downloading software. perhaps I think maybe a sniffer and redirect using not a secondary doc but maybe just an ssi. whadda you think about that? check out http://www.flashkit.com check the source code, something like that seems to work. I tested flashkit in netscape with no flash plugin and the redirect sent a gif in place of the embedded flash. that seems much better for my current design practice of having bits of flash contained within html. any insight would be awesome. thx. Ad.