[thelist] Re: Content Management Systems

Dayn Riegel @ NYAD, Inc. kichigai at jointhe.net
Wed Feb 20 23:48:01 CST 2002


One of my favorite companies and services -- Atomz.com -- has a
really nice, albeit pricey CMS service.

It's still in infant stage however from what I've seen other do w/ it
so far it will continue to grow.

You also can't beat their Search tool.

Sure, sure, there are cheaper options and other companies --
believe me, over the past few years I've tried many!

I am merely stating an "IMHO" here -- so take it for what it is
worth and do your own research and investigation.

I make no money from them and have even negotiated the
sale of the service for my bigger clients and not made a single
dime from the sale.

http://www.atomz.com

or, more directly:

http://www.atomz.com/publish/

-_- D.

At 00:37 2/21/2002, you wrote:
>Send thelist mailing list submissions to
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>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. RE: coding specifically for Australian market (Paul Cowan)
>    2. RE: Front Page - does it suck? (Dulcie Meatheringham)
>    3. RE: TIP - Event Bubbling in BRIO 6.5 (Luther, Ron)
>    4. javascript help ascenddvd.com (Cayley Vos)
>    5. RE: Remove break after H# tags (Jon Haworth)
>    6. Strange client in log (s t e f)
>    7. Re: Strange client in log (Kevin D. White)
>    8. RE: GET vs. POST (Jim Davis)
>    9. RE: Strange client in log (Lindsay Evans)
>   10. Re: content management systems (Cayley Vos)
>   11. Re: content management systems? (Dan Romanchik)
>   12. Re: content management systems? (Dan Romanchik)
>   13. Re: content management systems? (aardvark)
>   14. RE: content management systems? (matt newell)
>   15. Re: dreamweaver 4 (John Dowdell)
>   16. Re: software theft  (was: dw4) (John Dowdell)
>   17. RE: OT S3Trio64 graphics card not suported by win2000? (David Greig)
>   18. RE: javascript/fer why? (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Josué?= Figueira Machado)
>   19. RE: javascript/fer why? (.jeff)
>   20. anyone remember this cool image effect? (Marc Seyon)
>   21. Re: javascript help ascenddvd.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Josué?= Figueira
> Machado)
>   22. RE: javascript/fer why? (Lindsay Evans)
>   23. Mail HTML Page (Mark Gillingham)
>   24. pop up window in flash (Kaye)
>   25. Re: dreamweaver 4 (Lisa Frost)
>   26. RE: OT S3Trio64 graphics card not suported by win2000? (Michael
> Pemberton)
>   27. Email alterations (Michael Pemberton)
>   28. Re: Front Page - does it suck? (Chris Hill)
>   29. Text to HTML convertors (Tony Scott)
>   30. RE: anyone remember this cool image effect? (tmwall)
>   31. RE: pop up window in flash (Daniel Frey)
>   32. Re: Email alterations (Daniel J. Cody)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>From: Paul Cowan <paul at wishlist.com.au>
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] coding specifically for Australian market
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:03:10 +1100
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hey nate,
>
> > For example, I think I heard somewhere that a bigger % of Australian users
> > use Netscape than do so globally. (It's about 12% global, but I thought it
> > was closer to 17% down under.)
>
>I can only speak for the site for which I work (if not Australia's
>biggest online general-purpose retailer, then close to it). Obviously
>our demographic may be substantially different to yours (e.g. corporations
>which lock down browser versions on their desktops are probably likely
>to frown on people shopping online during work hours), but it's
>probably about as close to a cross-section of the Aussie browser
>population as you can get... unless Isaac or someone can provide a
>bit more variety of stats.
>
>Anyway, we're currently tracking at about 91% IE, 5% netscape, and
>the rest proxy servers etc. Opera and WebTV are present, if
>statistically insignificant.
>
>In IE, IE 5 vs. IE 6 is split about 70-25; In Netscape, Netsape 4
>vs. Netscape 6 is about 83-13.
>
> > Another example (that doesn't specifically apply to Au): When coding for
> > Asian markets, it's important to fully use CSS, because font tags aren't
> > supported by Asian (double-byte) browsers.
>
>No idea about that... but bear in mind that Australia has an
>extremely high proportions of Asian-born residents... so if this is
>true, a lot of Australians (English-speaking or no) will be using
>such browsers.
>
>In fact, it might pay to bear in mind that Australia has a VERY varied
>mix of ethnicities... as just an example, my hometown, Melbourne, has more
>Greek people living in it that any other city in the world except Athens.
>Not sure how useful that is to know -- but an interesting fact, anyway!
>
> > I'm sure there can't be too many differences, but since I'm serving a
> > known, specific geographic audience, I'd like to do whatever
> > I can to make it as good and appropriate as possible.
>
>It IS worth considering that broadband takeup in Australia is very
>low -- largely because of the ridiculous expense. Connections to the
>outside world can be flaky too -- so be careful where the site is hosted,
>and go easy on the bandwidth.
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Paul
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>From: "Dulcie Meatheringham" <dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] Front Page - does it suck?
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:08:07 -0700
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Janet wrote:
>
> > >>>I would probably refuse a project where I had to develop for
> > FP from scratch.<<<
> >
> > I think we should *all* go out and build a three-page site using
> > FP2000, and report back here in a week to compile the "offical
> > Front Page suck quotient." Might give us all some ammunition to
> > share with clients who are considering it as a tool.
> >
> > ;) only partially kidding.
>
>How about 300 or 500 page sites:
>
>http://www.albertaheritage.net
>
>http://collections.ic.gc.ca/alberta
>
>http://collections.ic.gc.ca/pasttopresent
>
>http://collections.ic.gc.ca/abnature
>
>These were all built with Front Page 2000, the last 3 in the list by
>interns.  Front Page gives you easy access to the source code, and is
>excellent for site management and provides lots of information on your site
>(reports, etc.) and a wicked Search and Replace function. If people are
>familiar with MS Word, then FP won't be too intimidating. Even our research
>interns are able to edit and update with Front Page.
>
>I like it.  I only used Dreamweaver once, and found myself feeling blind
>because I couldn't see what was happening, and the source code was only
>available in a tiny window.  I'd like to try it (and Homesite) some more.
>
>Downsides: can't customize it to use <em> instead of <i>, etc.
>Upsides: can customize it to whatever level of browser support you like,
>page load times and connection speed, etc., can configure editors for .css
>files, and for image files.
>
>I imagine it won't seem very impressive if you're used to the way you build
>sites with another tool, but it's completely suitable for our purposes.
>
>Dulcie.
>--
>Dulcie Meatheringham, Web Projects Coordinator
>dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org (780) 424-6512, x227
>http://www.heritagecommunityfdn.org
>Heritage Community Foundation
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>Subject: RE: [thelist] TIP - Event Bubbling in BRIO 6.5
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:20:35 -0600
>From: "Luther, Ron" <Ron.Luther at COMPAQ.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hi Janet,
>
>
>Golly!  Somebody else who has used Brio!?
>
>Hmmm ... I think 'event bubbling' may be best described through an
>example:
>
>[Gosh - I hope I don't screw this up!]    ;-)
>
>Think of the "Container Model" for a moment, (that silly little thing
>that lets 'contained' items inherit CSS properties from 'higher level'
>entities).  Let's say, for example, that you define an "OnClick" event
>for a paragraph "<p>" element and that you define another "OnClick"
>event for a bold "<b>" element.
>
>'Event Bubbling' is the term given to the situation where your user
>clicks on the bold element, (thus firing the bold's "OnClick"), and the
>event "bubbles up" and fires the paragraph's "OnClick" event, (because
>the paragraph 'contains' the bold element), without any additional
>action by the user.
>
>Here's a better write-up [with clickable examples](and where I stole the
><p> and <b> example!):
>http://www.webreference.com/js/tips/000131.html
>
>
>Here's a step-by-step report you can build in Brio to see what I'm
>complaining about in that product:
>
>http://www.fangsnclaws.com/Brio/brio_tip7.html
>
>
>'zat help any?
>
>RonL.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Janet Nabring-Stager [mailto:jnabring at yahoo.com]
>
>Okay, so I'm clueless, but what is 'bubbling?'  I've used this tool
>before, but not extensively...
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:32:24 -0800
>From: Cayley Vos <cvos at netpaths.net>
>Organization: NetPaths.net
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] javascript help ascenddvd.com
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>I have a popup problem on  http://www.ascenddvd.com/rainier.php
>clicking on the help image (lower left hand corner of the 3D mount
>rainier map) brings up a popup.  fine.  however, in IE win there is no
>scrollbar and there should be.
>
>also, on the same page, clicking on each of the routes brings up a popup
>(different code) that centers a new window with a QTVR movie.  I've
>tried to remove the code that centers the window, but it is being
>finicky.
>
>  help!
>
>--
>
>
>Cayley Vos, Principal
>
>360.714.8395 office
>360.223.7799 cell
>
>http://degagefurniture.com
>____________________________________________
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: Jon Haworth <jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk>
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] Remove break after H# tags
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:07:14 -0000
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> > > How would I go about removing the line break automatically
> > > inserted after a H# level element using CSS?
>
> > The most xbrowser way is to not use any of the Header tags
> > and just create CSS classes that have the same appearance.
>
>Unfortunately that's not a very cross-search-engine way of doing this
>(leaving aside the examples of people with a custom stylesheet, people using
>Lynx, etc)
>
>Cheers
>Jon
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:22:47 +0100
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: s t e f <stef at nota-bene.org>
>Subject: [thelist] Strange client in log
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hi all
>
>In my web logs I just found "Mozilla/3.0 (compatible;
>Webinator-gogettem.nfis.com/2.52)".
>
>Any idea what this client may be?
>
>s t e f
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>From: "Kevin D. White" <nonzero at well.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] Strange client in log
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:56:44 -0700
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Probably some one from nfis.com is running the Webinator indexer on
>your site.
>
>http://www.thunderstone.com/texis/site/pages/webinator.html
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: "s t e f" <stef at nota-bene.org>
> > In my web logs I just found "Mozilla/3.0 (compatible;
> > Webinator-gogettem.nfis.com/2.52)".
> >
>Any idea what this client may be?
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
>
>iQA/AwUBPHQ3uakcrjXY5do7EQJx9wCbBMcw2AQvdICRvWFgmDyEwXyll8sAnjI/
>U88JwPtArmO9LIo39ZYQPcev
>=V1vs
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>From: "Jim Davis" <smurf at ragingsmurf.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] GET vs. POST
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:01:17 -0500
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Comments Inline
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
>Behalf Of Scott Schrantz
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 5:58 PM
>To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
>Subject: RE: [thelist] GET vs. POST
>
>* -----Original Message-----
> > From: Feingold Josh S [mailto:Josh.S.Feingold at irs.gov]
> >
> > When creating forms we have an option to use GET or POST
> > methods.  I was
> > wondering if there are any specific reasons that people use
> > GET or POST or
> > if it is just a matter of preference.  Are there any
> > tradeoffs between the
> > two?  Are there any differences with how the back button will
> > work? Are there any other issues?
>
>Off the top of my head:
>GET puts all the results into the query string. This makes the submission a
>little less secure, since everything you entered is visible right there on
>the screen and it gets stored in your list of visited sites. But, this type
>of query has advantages since it can also be bookmarked, copied and pasted
>into e-mail, etc. It is meant to be used to GET data from, for example, a
>search engine. You can they send that same query to your friends or to
>TheList by including the query string in the URL.
>*
>* I believe there are limitations to the amount of characters a Query String
>will handle, but this is also browser dependant.  I think for I.E. its like
>1000 characters.. I may be wrong though.
>* Using "get" to pass information sends the information appended to the
>request for the processing page. It tends to be simpler and you can
>troubleshoot any problems simply by looking at the address bar in your
>browser since all values passed are displayed there. This is also the
>primary weakness of this method. The data being passed is visible and is
>limited in size to the maximum length of a request string.
>
>POST hides all the data that is sent; none of it is visible on the screen
>after it is sent. Only slightly more secure, though, since the results are
>still transmitted in plain text. This type of query cannot be bookmarked,
>and is usually meant to POST data once for storage on the server, such as
>into a database application. A blog post or an online order form would be
>examples of this one-time submission.
>Using "post" to pass information sends the information embedded in a header
>during the request for the processing page. Its main advantage is that you
>can send larger amounts of information. It also doesn't make that
>information visible in the address bar of the browser, which is nice if you
>are using the "hidden" input type. The value of this type is still readily
>available to the user by using view source, but the average user won't see
>it or be confused by any information you may need to pass from your form for
>processing.
>
>
>So, ideally, you would decide which one to use based on what you were going
>to be doing with the data once the server receives it, if you want the
>results page to be bookmarked, and if you want the same data to be able to
>be passed around and easily resubmitted or not.
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
>From: "Lindsay Evans" <lindsay at redsquare.com.au>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] Strange client in log
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:04:59 +1100
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> > In my web logs I just found "Mozilla/3.0 (compatible;
> > Webinator-gogettem.nfis.com/2.52)".
> >
> > Any idea what this client may be?
>
>Just guessing, but I'd say that it is a spider for http://gogettem.nfis.com/
>indexing your site.
>
>--
>  Lindsay Evans.
>  Developer,
>  Red Square Productions.
>
>  [p] 8596.4000
>  [f] 8596.4001
>  [w] www.redsquare.com.au
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:04:09 -0800
>From: Cayley Vos <cvos at netpaths.net>
>Organization: NetPaths.net
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] Re: content management systems
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Heres a good CMS application
>
>http://www.mamboserver.com/
>--
>
>
>Cayley Vos, Principal
>
>360.714.8395 office
>360.223.7799 cell
>
>http://allenlakeside.com
>____________________________________________
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 11
>From: "Dan Romanchik" <dan at danromanchik.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] content management systems?
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:19:16 -0500
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>The website is a very nice design, but has like no information at all about
>how the thing actually works or what it costs. Can you give us some
>information on what servers its runs on and how much it costs?
>
>Dan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 5:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [thelist] content management systems?
>
>
> > > From: matt newell <matt at sweetillusions.org>
> > >
> > > i was hoping to solicit any reviews of corporate or enterprise class
> > > CMS systems that any of you have had experience with -- hopefully
> > > centering on implementation and general risk assessment.
>
>
> > biased:
> > http://quantumcms.com/
> >
> > clearly i have interest in you digging that one... but if you have
> > questions about it or any of its implementation issues, gimme an
> > offlist holler..
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 12
>From: "Dan Romanchik" <dan at danromanchik.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] content management systems?
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:28:14 -0500
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>I've been using phpWebSite (phpwebsite.appstate.edu), and find it to be very
>easy to customize and use. I've even written a couple of simple plug-ins for
>it. I think it's a good choice if you're running on a shared server.
>
>About a year ago I looked at Midgard, too. If I remember correctly, one of
>the things that turned me away from it was that it required root access to
>install. Obviously, not something you're going to be able to do if you don't
>have your own server (or a very liberal ISP).
>
>I played around a little with Zope, too, when I converted an older computer
>(233 MHz Pentium, 64 MB RAM) to Linux and actually did have root access. I
>had high hopes for Zope (no pun intended), but it ran very slowly on my
>Linux box and the learning curve was very steep.
>
>I think if I had my own, relatively fast server to play with, I'd look into
>Cocoon, which is part of the Apache Project. It's XML-based, and because
>it's part of Apache, I'm sure there's plenty of support for it.
>
>Maybe some day....
>
>Dan
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dan Romanchik - FreeAgent Writer, Editor,  and Web Developer
>dan at danromanchik.com, 734-930-6564
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rachel Cunliffe" <rachel at cre8d-design.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 5:37 PM
>Subject: RE: [thelist] content management systems?
>
>
> > matt
> >
> > i'm looking right now also.. spent a lot of time fiddling with postnuke
>and
> > phpnuke but found that, for what i wanted, it would be a lot of time and
> > effort for little return also. i've been writing my own custom cms but i'd
> > like something more generic (which i currently don't have the time to
> > write!)
> >
> > i'd like to know if anyone has used http://www.midgard-project.org/ - and
> > how good it is, before diving in myself. it's php based and open source
>(my
> > favourite!).
> >
> > .:peace
> > rachel
> >
> > --
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> >
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 13
>From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: [thelist] content management systems?
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
>soitenly...
>
>right now the site is a new marketing tool we've built to support our
>face-to-face sales... it's still growing...
>
>pricing is at:
>http://quantumcms.com/document_107_24.html
>
>although i can see my sales guy hasn't updated the date on the
>price... but $25k for a full install...  pretty full-featured, but instead
>of pasting in a full list of features and bugging everyone else, we
>can chat offlist about that stuff...
>
>runs on win2k/ASP box(en) with MS SQL as the datasource...
>uses XML/XSL for all the templates, so it can output to HTML,
>WML, and even print documents so the CMS can maintain content
>in more than one place...  also looking at porting to PHP...
>
>there are also shared hosting options
>(http://quantumcms.com/document_171_24.html) that give you
>access to the tool, but save you the headache of hosting and the
>costs of the full license...
>
>let me know what other questions you have, and i'd be happy to
>expand on them here, offlist, and definitely on the web site...
>
>a demo is also available, but that's when a phone call comes in
>handy to walk you through it all...
>
> > From: "Dan Romanchik" <dan at danromanchik.com>
> >
> > The website is a very nice design, but has like no information at all
> > about how the thing actually works or what it costs. Can you give us
> > some information on what servers its runs on and how much it costs?
> >
> > > biased:
> > > http://quantumcms.com/
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:15:56 -0800 (PST)
>From: matt newell <matt at sweetillusions.org>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] content management systems?
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
>currently we have a home-spun software pushing setup that's been patched
>and forced to handle the content flow for the rest of the site. we are at
>the point of deciding to invest more resources to developing what is
>currently available into a workable "real" CMS with the bells and whistles
>that one would expect or to go with a off the shelf solution.
>
>[now i'm off to catch up on the thread -- been knee deep in release
>issues today]
>
>// matt
>
>ps. there was a security release mentioned today about it being possible
>to hack phpnuke
>
>
>On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Rachel Cunliffe wrote:
>
> > matt
> >
> > i'm looking right now also.. spent a lot of time fiddling with postnuke and
> > phpnuke but found that, for what i wanted, it would be a lot of time and
> > effort for little return also. i've been writing my own custom cms but i'd
> > like something more generic (which i currently don't have the time to
> > write!)
> >
> > i'd like to know if anyone has used http://www.midgard-project.org/ - and
> > how good it is, before diving in myself. it's php based and open source (my
> > favourite!).
> >
> > .:peace
> > rachel
> >
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:18:47 -0800
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
>Subject: Re: [thelist] dreamweaver 4
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>At 2:45 AM 2/20/2, sergio ribeiro wrote:
> > i started with a trial downloaded version and because the program is
> > splendid i started to buy a few books last week, for my suprise this
> > wek the program expired and i am not aloud to run the trial version...
>
>Sorry, that's right, the trial versions do work for a certain amount of
>time, and we currently can't reset them. Here's more info:
>http://www.macromedia.com/support/service/trial.html
>
>(At one time in the past Macromedia trial versions had a wrapper which
>could be reset, but the company which made the trial wrappers could no
>longer afford to stay in business, and the only trial software remaining
>cannot be reset like that.)
>
>It's great that you're interested in this field, and that you can also
>afford a computer and net access for your work. I'd second Veronica's
>suggestion of starting with a text editor... you wouldn't be able to do a
>lot, very quickly, but it's a great way to get established and start
>getting paying work to afford a more efficient toolset.
>
>(In my own case I had bought software before I could afford a computer,
>just so I could read the manuals in between practice times on someone
>else's machine... if you've got your own computer already, then you're
>ahead of where I was...!  ;-)
>
>jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>John Dowdell, Macromedia Tech Support, San Francisco CA US
>Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
>Offlist email risks capture by the spam filters. I may not see your
>email if it's not on the list. Private one-on-one email options are
>available via Priority Access: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 16
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:41:08 -0800
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: jdowdell at macromedia.com (John Dowdell)
>Subject: Re: [thelist] software theft  (was: dw4)
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> > But the large software developing companies do not concern
> > about this bad thing (piracy)....
>
>Well, actually, we do care when our work is stolen. There's an entire group
>inside Macromedia which prosecutes such software theft. I know we don't
>catch all of it, particularly in parts of the world where a larger
>proportion of society is outside the legal marketplace, but as people and
>communities become more invested in the larger society the benefits of
>going legit become stronger.
>
>With recent layoffs through the tech field, it's really easy to want people
>who make money off our efforts to honestly compensate us for those efforts.
>Some of my friends who used to work here are without jobs now, and if....
>
>Nothing personal here... Macromedia and other companies do prosecute
>theft-of-services, that's all.
>
>
>On a slight side topic, my personal opinion is that you'd have to be some
>type of idiot to load known-criminal executables on your own computer these
>days... making the assumption that some purveyor is evil enough to rip
>someone else off, but is so moral that they wouldn't install a trapdoor
>onto some program they slip you, just seems like a braindead assumption to
>make. That's my personal take, anyway, and it's obvious that some still
>believe it safe.
>
>
> > [My religion tells me] "Doubt is a very bad thing. Don't ever do it".
>
>Heh-heh, I find that funny... you can't *ever* doubt, even just a little?
>What would happen if you did?
>
>That reminds me of people who say you should always doubt everything,
>except their advice about doubting.... ;-)
>
>"Doubt usefully, and be smart and kind about it," that's closer to my own
>philosophy. But I'm getting even more off-topic.....
>
>
><tip>
>   Patrick Cooney offers a very readable intro to web services:
>   http://www.alistapart.com/stories/webservices/
></tip>
>
>
>jd
>
>
>
>
>
>John Dowdell, Macromedia Tech Support, San Francisco CA US
>Search technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
>Offlist email risks capture by the spam filters. I may not see your
>email if it's not on the list. Private one-on-one email options are
>available via Priority Access: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 17
>From: David Greig <DavidGr at bsa.qld.gov.au>
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>,
>    "'richard.b at gritechnologies.com'" <richard.b at gritechnologies.com>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] OT S3Trio64 graphics card not suported by win2000?
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:10:10 +1000
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hi Richard
>
>The reason you haven't been able to find drivers anywhere on the net is
>because Win2K already includes a driver for your card!  So...point you at
>the drivers?  Start->Settings->Control Panel->Add /Remove Hardware.... :)
>
>Regards
>Dave
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Bennett [mailto:richard.b at gritechnologies.com]
>Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2002 1:27 AM
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] OT S3Trio64 graphics card not suported by win2000?
>
>
>I still have several S3Trio64V+ graphic cards lying around, but haven't been
>able to find any win2000 drivers for them.
>Can anyone confirm that they are simply not supported under win2000?
>(or better still, point me to the win2k drivers)
>
>Cheers,
>Richard.
>
><tip type="google">
>
>Do you also find it such a pain that Google always changes language for
>foreign browsers?
>
>To keep it in English, save a favorite as:
>
>http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en
>
></tip>
>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 18
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:24:29 -0500
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org, <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Josué?= Figueira Machado <jmachado at mindspring.com>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] javascript/fer why?
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Jeff,
>
>At 12:54 PM 2/20/2002 -0800, .jeff chastised me thus:
>
> >if(newWindow.focus)
> >   newWindow.focus();
>
>Very good idea!
>
> ><shake type="finger" class="bony">tsk, tsk</shake>
> >naughty javascripter.  put down your toys, go directly to jail, and do *not*
> >collect $200.
> >
> >for good behavior (reading the article at the link below), we'll let you off
> >with time served.  *grin*
> >
> >Links & JavaScript Living Together in Harmony
> >http://evolt.org/article/thelist/17/20938/
>
>Ok, so:
>
><a href="digitalio1.htm" onclick="subWin('digitalio1.htm',500,375);return
>false;">your image and don't forget the alt text</a>
>
>Do I still have to read the article? ;-)
>
>Thanks for the words of wisdom,
>
>Josué
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 19
>From: ".jeff" <jeff at members.evolt.org>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] javascript/fer why?
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:32:45 -0800
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>josué,
>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > From: Josué Figueira Machado
> >
> > > for good behavior (reading the article at the link
> > > below), we'll let you off with time served.  *grin*
> > >
> > > Links & JavaScript Living Together in Harmony
> > > http://evolt.org/article/thelist/17/20938/
> >
> > Ok, so:
> >
> > <a href="digitalio1.htm"
> >  onclick="subWin('digitalio1.htm',500,375);
> >           return false;"
> > >your image and don't forget the alt text</a>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>that's better, but still not quite there.  the only thing you're missing is
>that you don't have to hardcode the link to the document in the function
>call.  you can simply reference it with the "this" keyword and its "href"
>property:
>
><a href="digitalio1.htm"
>  onclick="subWin(this.href, 500, 375);
>           return false;"
> >your image and don't forget the alt text</a>
>
>now your maintenance is absolute minimum.
>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > Do I still have to read the article? ;-)
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>of course.  there's more you might learn from it.
>
>run along,
>
>.jeff
>
>http://evolt.org/
>jeff at members.evolt.org
>http://members.evolt.org/jeff/
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 20
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:37:15 -0400
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: Marc Seyon <seyon at delime.com>
>Subject: [thelist] anyone remember this cool image effect?
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hi guys, sorry if this is really vague... long week
>
>Some time ago someone posted a link to a site that displayed some
>thumbnailed images. On mousing over each image, the visual effect was of
>the image lightening gradually. I think it was done using some proprietary
>IE feature.
>
>Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?
>
><tip type="CSS">
>Never remember the order for those CSS link pseudoclass styles?
>Link, Visited, Hover, Active.
>Think "LoVe/HAte"
></tip>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 21
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:48:33 -0500
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Josué?= Figueira Machado <jmachado at mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] javascript help ascenddvd.com
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Cayley,
>
>In your openWindow function call where you have "scrollbar", it should be
>"scrollbars".
>
>See if this works to remove the window positioning:
>
>function NewWindow(mypage, myname, w, h, scroll) {
>     winprops = 'height='+h+',width='+w+',scrollbars='+scroll+',noresize'
>     win = window.open(mypage, myname, winprops)
>     if (parseInt(navigator.appVersion) >= 4) { win.window.focus(); }
>}
>
>Good luck,
>
>Josué
>
>At 03:32 PM 2/20/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >I have a popup problem on  http://www.ascenddvd.com/rainier.php
> >clicking on the help image (lower left hand corner of the 3D mount
> >rainier map) brings up a popup.  fine.  however, in IE win there is no
> >scrollbar and there should be.
> >
> >also, on the same page, clicking on each of the routes brings up a popup
> >(different code) that centers a new window with a QTVR movie.  I've
> >tried to remove the code that centers the window, but it is being
> >finicky.
> >
> >  help!
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >Cayley Vos, Principal
> >
> >360.714.8395 office
> >360.223.7799 cell
> >
> >http://degagefurniture.com
> >____________________________________________
> >
> >--
> >For unsubscribe and other options, including
> >the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 22
>From: "Lindsay Evans" <lindsay at redsquare.com.au>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] javascript/fer why?
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:50:50 +1100
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> > <a href="digitalio1.htm"
> >  onclick="subWin(this.href, 500, 375);
> >           return false;"
> > >your image and don't forget the alt text</a>
> >
> > now your maintenance is absolute minimum.
>
>... and if you put the "return false;" as the last line of your subWin
>function:
>
>function subWin(...){
>         ...
>         return false;
>}
>
>then you only have to code this:
>
><a href="digitalio1.htm"
>  onclick="return subWin(this.href, 500, 375);"
> >your image and don't forget the alt text</a>
>
>saving you 5 bytes each time you call the function :op
>
>--
>  Lindsay Evans (currently optimising a 200k Flash application).
>  Developer,
>  Red Square Productions.
>
>  [p] 8596.4000
>  [f] 8596.4001
>  [w] www.redsquare.com.au
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 23
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:16:24 -0600
>From: Mark Gillingham <markgill at uwalumni.com>
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] Mail HTML Page
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Is there a good Perl, PHP, or JavaScript routine to mail a web page to
>an individual?
>
>Mark Gillingham
>markgill at uwalumni.com
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 24
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:20:58 +0800
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: Kaye <kat at pemsea.org>
>Subject: [thelist] pop up window in flash
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
>Hello everyone! I'm a newbie in flash and I'd appreciate any help
>from you guys.
>
>I need to have a scrolling text. Within the text, I need to have some
>words clickable. When this words are clicked, a small window (not a
>browser) will pop out which will contain the meaning of the word.
>
>Would really appreciate any help. Thanks.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 25
>From: "Lisa Frost" <lisa at koolfish.com>
>To: "the list" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] dreamweaver 4
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:54:40 +0700
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>"I can't believe this guy is using his history of somewhat naive and
>unintelligent posts to get away with trading pirated software on the
>list.
>
>Maurice"
>
>I think that was a bit harsh.
>He was not trading, his original post was an offer to help someone out.
>Yes it was totally wrong to offer what no doubt would have been pirated
>software, but I think he probably just did not think and thought he was
>doing the bloke a favour.
>
>I don't think it is fair to refer to his posts as unintelligent. Have
>you taken into consideration that he lives in Asia and communication by
>the written word often does not come out as intended, especially if you
>are new. Come and live in a developing country for a few years and you
>will see what I mean. Pirated software is everywhere here, there are
>even computer Malls specialising in it, it is second nature to a lot of
>people who earn peanuts (yes computer experts earn very little here) to
>use it when it means the difference of being able to make enough money
>to pay for rent and food or for further education. I think he did not
>realise when he made that offer that people on the list would have
>reacted so negatively (quite rightly, don't get the idea I advocate
>piracy) and I think a lot of you put your arguments against it well but
>I think the above statement was uncalled for.
>
><tip type="different cultures on the list>
>Please bear in mind who you are replying to, or referring to. For those
>on the list whose first language is not English make allowances for
>grammar and spelling and whose own language may not even consist of the
>same alphabet or include grammar rules. Try learning to read and write
>Thai or Chinese  and you will see how hard it is to convert to another
>language. Also don't forget other peoples life experiences. We don't all
>live in big cities with fast internet connections, access to great books
>and other resources. The list is a lifeline to some of us around the
>world and we may ask dumb questions sometimes but sometimes your our
>only resource for help. </tip>
>
>Lisa
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 26
>From: "Michael Pemberton" <pemberton_m at hotmail.com>
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: RE: [thelist] OT S3Trio64 graphics card not suported by win2000?
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:53:37 +1100
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> >From memory, when I was building my server @ home, I had to co a bit of
>searching to get hold of Trio64 drivers.
>
>Richard, if you see me online some time, give me a yell.  I'll try work
>through what I did and how I got it to work.
>
> >From: David Greig <DavidGr at bsa.qld.gov.au>
> >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:10:10 +1000
> >
> >Hi Richard
> >
> >The reason you haven't been able to find drivers anywhere on the net is
> >because Win2K already includes a driver for your card!  So...point you at
> >the drivers?  Start->Settings->Control Panel->Add /Remove Hardware.... :)
> >
> >Regards
> >Dave
> >
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 27
>From: "Michael Pemberton" <pemberton_m at hotmail.com>
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:08:46 +1100
>Subject: [thelist] Email alterations
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>I am amazed to see how many new features have come to be added to thelist in
>recent times.  Great work guys.
>
>I see that it is now possible to strip the txt/plain part out of a mime
>formated message.  How hard / server hungry is this kind of thing?  I was
>wondering, is it also possible to strip out the thelist footer and other
>such footers (hotmail / yahoo for example).
>
>As someone who is limited to using hotmail at work, I understand the
>annoyances of having this appear at the end of each of my posts.
>
><tip type="Dumb Win2000 servers" author="Michael Pemberton">
>Scenario:
>
>While upgrading my firewall software last night, I made a mistake and it
>locked down *EVERY* interface, network and RAS.
>
>Not fun when you using remote admin software to control the server and don't
>have a keyboard / mouse hooked up to it.
>
>It was then that I noticed that if win2000 doesn't find a kb/mouse
>conntected to itself for too long, it disables the hardware in the Device
>Manager.
>
>This causes the hardware to appear missing even when they are existing and
>connected.
>
>Solution:
>
>Booting the PC in "Safe Mode" allowed me to disable the firewall software.
>It also allowed my to start the VNC server.  From here, I was able to go
>back to my own PC and connect using VNC.  This allowed me to enable my
>keyboard / mouse again.
>
>Moral to the story:
>
>Keep an eye on Win2000's device list.
></tip>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 28
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:12:58 -0500 (EST)
>From: Chris Hill <cshill00 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [thelist] Front Page - does it suck?
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Longtime lurker, first-time poster.
>
>My girlfriend recently took a job at a university
>where one of her responsibilities is to keep the
>office website updated.  She has been told that she
>can only use FrontPage.  (Yes she's asked why, and no
>they haven't told her.)
>
>My question is, for people who are wed to FrontPage
>for one reason or another, what can be done to make FP
>as good as possible.  (i.e. so it doesn't keep adding
>all that extra code.)
>
>What specific options and preferences should be
>tweaked to keep FP code as lean as possible?  Thanks
>in advance.
>
>Chris
>
>--- Chris George <chrisg at gsnet.com> wrote:
> > I found out that if you just
> > don't use certain options
> > (like their built-in searches, and other weird CGI
> > crap), turn on the "My
> > host doesn't support FrontPage extensions" (even if
> > your host does) and a
> > few other dialogue-box tweaking the end result isn't
> > too bad - for a WYSIWYG app.
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 29
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:44:17 +0000
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: Tony Scott <tonys at netcomuk.co.uk>
>Subject: [thelist] Text to HTML convertors
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Fellow Evolters
>
>Does anyone have recommedations for good text to HTML convertors that run
>on Windows?
>
>Tony
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 30
>From: tmwall <tmwall at micron.com>
>To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] anyone remember this cool image effect?
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:48:39 -0700
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>http://www.mauiatvadventures.com/photos.php
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Seyon [mailto:seyon at delime.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:37 PM
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] anyone remember this cool image effect?
>
>
>Hi guys, sorry if this is really vague... long week
>
>Some time ago someone posted a link to a site that displayed some
>thumbnailed images. On mousing over each image, the visual effect was of
>the image lightening gradually. I think it was done using some proprietary
>IE feature.
>
>Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?
>
><tip type="CSS">
>Never remember the order for those CSS link pseudoclass styles?
>Link, Visited, Hover, Active.
>Think "LoVe/HAte"
></tip>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 31
>From: "Daniel Frey" <danieljohnfrey at yahoo.com>
>To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
>Subject: RE: [thelist] pop up window in flash
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:11:07 -0500
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hi Kaye,
>
>The good news is that it sounds like your task shouldn't be too
>complicated.  It will definitely be a great learning experience.
>
>There's a few things that will make your job easier:
>
>1) You're storing all of your data in an easily accessable data source,
>like a text file (HTML tags are fine - I know Flash 5 integrates with
>XML, but I don't know much about how the two interact).  Better still if
>all of the data is in the .swf, but I wouldn't cram too much in.
>
>2) You plan on only having one pseudo-window.  If its position is
>static, even better.
>
>Moock.org has a good tutorial for a scrolling text box, as well as a
>slew of actionscripting tutorials.  If you need any actionscript help, I
>can offer what knowledge I have - feel free to mail me off-list.
>
>HTH,
>Dan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
>[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Kaye
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:21 PM
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] pop up window in flash
>
>
>Hello everyone! I'm a newbie in flash and I'd appreciate any help
>from you guys.
>
>I need to have a scrolling text. Within the text, I need to have some
>words clickable. When this words are clicked, a small window (not a
>browser) will pop out which will contain the meaning of the word.
>
>Would really appreciate any help. Thanks.
>
>--
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 32
>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:40:42 -0600
>From: "Daniel J. Cody" <djc at members.evolt.org>
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: Re: [thelist] Email alterations
>Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>Hey Michael -
>
>Thanks for the compliments, glad you're liking it :)
>
>Stripping out the junk and rewriting the entire message(earlier this
>week a content-type rewriting problem that i missed popped up for
>example) is difficult. There are a lot of
>content-transfer-encoding/content-type combos to be dealt with, but it's
>all in the rfc's I guess :)
>
>It's actually *not* very resource hungry. If you'll endulge me for a
>moment, we'll examine the lifecycle of an html formatted email going to
>thelist..
>When an incoming email gets to lists.evolt.org, sendmail checks its
>alias file for 'thelist at lists.evolt.org' and see's a program name
>instead of an email address, and passes the message to the program. The
>program is a little python script that does some low level checking for
>things like the correct 'to:' address, make sure its not addressed to
>too many people(spam counter), and things of that nature. If it doesn't
>like what it sees, it passes it to another program that sends it to
>thelist-admin(me).
>
>Assuming everything is kosher to that little checking script, it writes
>the file to a queue for the mailing list manager(MLM). The MLM checks
>that queue every second for a new entry, and when it finds one, it loads
>the email file into memory, and does some more checking to make sure
>it's a plain text email. If it's not, a number of re-writes happen to
>the message so it becomes plain text, and any attachment are stripped.
>Either way, it comes out squeky clean and ready for delivery.
>
>Anyone remember the "I'm just a Bill" cartoon they used to play on
>Saturday mornings here in the US that chronicled the lifecycle of a US
>law? That was great... :)
>
>So, once we have a nice clean email, a copy gets appended to the digest
>file that will get sent out at the end of the day for the folks that are
>on the digest. For the rest of us, list specific helpful headers for
>list management are written into the header, a quip file that contains a
>couple hundred x-evolt header lines is opened, one is selected at random
>and put in to the x-evolt: header line. A copy of the message is also
>written to the archives in the correct thread. The MLM then polls the
>list DB(berkeley style) for people who get every message individually,
>pipes their email addresses into the To: in the header and shoots them
>off in chunks of 100 to one of the three relay.evolt.org servers that
>run Postgres. whew.
>Whichever one of the three that gets to deliver the message to you sends
>the complete email to your SMTP server. If it bounces for whatever
>reason, it gets shot back to another python script that does some
>automatic checking(e.g. if this email bounces more than 5 times in 24
>hours, unsubscribe that person), and then sent back to me.
>
>Thats just one email :) For thelist alone, thats almost 100
>incoming(3000 outgoing) emails a day. Throw in the other evolt lists,
>and its about 5000 a day. Time from when it hits lists.evolt.org to the
>time it leaves one of the relay servers: 45-60 seconds total(half of
>that being queuing). So, to answer your question, it's not server hungry
>at all.. Glad you asked? :)
>
>In the same way that multi-part messages are stripped clean, I'm working
>on something similar that will strip footers, but thats a bit more
>difficult.
>
>If it's not totally apparent, I love talking about this stuff, so shoot
>me any other questions if you have them :)
>
>.djc.
>
>Michael Pemberton wrote:
> > I am amazed to see how many new features have come to be added to
> > thelist in
> > recent times.  Great work guys.
> >
> > I see that it is now possible to strip the txt/plain part out of a mime
> > formated message.  How hard / server hungry is this kind of thing?  I was
> > wondering, is it also possible to strip out the thelist footer and other
> > such footers (hotmail / yahoo for example).
> >
> > As someone who is limited to using hotmail at work, I understand the
> > annoyances of having this appear at the end of each of my posts.
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>Help: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist
>
>Archives: http://lists.evolt.org
>
>End of thelist Digest

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