From thelist at lists.evolt.org Mon Jul 22 00:02:01 2002 From: thelist at lists.evolt.org (Tip Harvester) Date: Mon Jul 22 00:02:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tip Harvest for the Week of Monday Jul 15, 2002 Message-ID: <200207220501.g6M51JRZ013393@leo.evolt.org> The tip harvest for the Week of Monday Jul 15, 2002 has been added to the lists.evolt.org site. Get it at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/show/c/Week-of-Mon-20020715.html Week at a glance listing at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/week/c/Week-of-Mon-20020715.html Search the tips at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/ Harvest Summary --------------- Number of messages: 703 Number of tips : 31 Tip Authors ----------- "TjL (1) Aaron Schaap (1) Alan Wood (1) Ben Dyer (2) Brad Miller (1) Cayley Vos (1) chris parker (1) csaila (2) David Dorward (1) James Aylard (1) Jay Blanchard (1) John Handelaar (1) Lachlan (1) Liam Delahunty (1) Madhu Menon (2) Mark Gallagher (2) Matthias Ritzkowski (1) McCoy, Alan (1) Pat Meeks (1) Paul Cowan (1) Paulo Guedes (1) S.tygian B.lacksmith S.tudios (1) Sarah Heffron (1) Shanx (1) Shashank Tripathi shanx at shanx.com (1) Susan Wallace (1) Tip Types --------- ASP & SQL Server (1) being infallible (1) CSS (2) Debugging Styles (1) Delivering XHTML through XSLT (1) Fighting Spam Email (1) Improving the user experience (1) MySQL (1) Mysql InnoDB tables, aggregate functions (1) MySQL Management Tool (1) naming CSS classes and IDs (1) Network Solutions (1) Outlook backup (1) RTF compatibility (1) Search Engine Relationships (1) Search Engine Submission (1) Searching Internet sites (1) setting focus on an element (1) small urls (1) talking and typing (1) Transferring Away From Network Solutions (1) URLs and wrapping (1) virtual desktop/emulator software (1) VMware (1) writing code (1) XSL (1) From gracepcs at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 00:13:02 2002 From: gracepcs at hotmail.com (Main) Date: Mon Jul 22 00:13:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT- MS Excel Protection References: <20020722140927.3371.DAVID@vidmandesign.com> Message-ID: Hello, I have an excel worksheet which i protect it last time with a password, but now I forget about the password, so I can't make any modification for the field, any of you know how to 'crack' ? I have try all the password I can remember, but still no luck. Thanks. From Anthony at Baratta.com Mon Jul 22 01:09:01 2002 From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta) Date: Mon Jul 22 01:09:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT- MS Excel Protection In-Reply-To: References: <20020722140927.3371.DAVID@vidmandesign.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020721230627.02cec9c8@baratta.com> At 10:20 PM 7/21/2002, Main wrote: >I have an excel worksheet which i protect it last time with a password, but >now I forget about the password, so I can't make any modification for the >field, any of you know how to 'crack' ? I have try all the password I can >remember, but still no luck. If you click the empty square over teh 1 and left of the A, it will select the whole spread sheet. Then try copying and pasting into a new spreadsheet. That was a hole in some versions of Excel. Otherwise you are stuck redoing the web site or paying for a crack. --- Anthony Baratta President Keyboard Jockeys "Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative." From mark at mountain.ch Mon Jul 22 02:36:01 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Mon Jul 22 02:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] NS 4.08 Crasher -- why? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > http://members.evolt.org/jswiders/mt/ > crashes NS 4.08 on Win Ninety-mumble. [snip] > W3C sez both the XHTML and CSS are perfect, so I figure it's some > Netscape bug. Earlier versions of Netscape 4.x are well-known for crashing when using CSS definitions for margin and padding, as well as occasionally throwing a fit when using border definitions. Over the past six months, less than 2% of 60,000 page hits at my site have been from Netscape 4; as you say that you're not worried about making the layout the same in Netscape 4, I'd hide the stylesheet from that browser altogether. (Link may wrap onto second line) Regards Mark Howells From chris.price at stl.org Mon Jul 22 03:26:01 2002 From: chris.price at stl.org (Chris Price) Date: Mon Jul 22 03:26:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Do we still need to say Download Acrobat Reader, and RTF files Message-ID: I clicked on the link below and got sent to a page that appeared to be for Windows users only. It also froze my iMac on the first visit and froze my IE5.0 on the 2nd visit but my iMac survived. -- Chris Price STL > ---------- > From: Tim Luoma > Reply To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 15:21 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Re: Do we still need to say Download Acrobat Reader, and RTF files > ...BTW for downloading PDF I always recommend sending folks to > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/alternate.html rather than the > other page because I believe it is easier to navigate, but some folks > prefer the dropdown menu option. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by UUNET delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit http://www.uk.uu.net/products/security/virus/ From dbaxo at ihug.co.nz Mon Jul 22 03:55:01 2002 From: dbaxo at ihug.co.nz (Duncan O'Neill) Date: Mon Jul 22 03:55:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Relative layers (DIVS) References: <20020722140927.3371.DAVID@vidmandesign.com> Message-ID: <3D3BC9DE.8060302@ihug.co.nz> David Rafferton wrote: > I have a page- > http://www.vidmandesign.com/multimedia-trt.html > with a table centered. In this table I have a series of layers > on top of each other (with visible/hide links). > > Now because these layers have to line up with a centered > table I am positioning them relative. The only unfortunate > result of this is it makes the page length as long as the total > of all the layers, layed end to end (approx 2000px!!). > > If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will note that I have > made fun of the extra long page. However I would rather not have to do > this in the first place. I haven't tested this, but you may get better results from toggling between 'display:none' and 'display:block', rather using 'visibility:hidden' and 'visibility:show' in your MM_showHideLayers function. Using the visibility property, the element is still on the page, which accounts for its length. Using the display property, the elements won't be on the page until they're called. hth, -- ===================================================== Duncan O'Neill "Smith The Reporter" http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dbaxo/urban_legend.htm ===================================================== From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Mon Jul 22 04:49:01 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon Jul 22 04:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tables, IE5 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722104619.027ffc98@216.6.8.1> Internet Explorer v. 5 is leaving a gap - about one pixel wide - between tables on a page I'm workin on. I've tried eliminating line breaks, margin stuff, and so on. I'm sure I used to know a fix for this, but right now I cannot recall it. Any ideas? It's starting to frustrate the hell out of me, and that's not what I want on a Monday morning... Cheers, Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com +353-1-2365705 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From n.beresford at anansi.co.uk Mon Jul 22 04:53:01 2002 From: n.beresford at anansi.co.uk (Norman Beresford) Date: Mon Jul 22 04:53:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tables, IE5 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722104619.027ffc98@216.6.8.1> Message-ID: Hi Drew Check the whitespace in the code, it shouldn't make a difference, but IIRC it does. Norman > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Drew Shiel > Sent: 22 July 2002 10:48 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Tables, IE5 > > > > Internet Explorer v. 5 is leaving a gap - about one pixel wide - between > tables on a page I'm workin on. I've tried eliminating line breaks, margin > stuff, and so on. I'm sure I used to know a fix for this, but right now I > cannot recall it. Any ideas? It's starting to frustrate the hell > out of me, > and that's not what I want on a Monday morning... > > Cheers, > Drew. > > > Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com > +353-1-2365705 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From paul.morgan at fortune-cookie.com Mon Jul 22 05:00:01 2002 From: paul.morgan at fortune-cookie.com (paul morgan) Date: Mon Jul 22 05:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] XLST Server-side References: <20020721170836.810E13A60@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3D3BD6EA.4090904@fortune-cookie.com> Have you tried Php? Most ISP's that offer *nix and Apache will have this as one of their default scripting languages. XSLT in Php has come in leaps and bounds and there are a number of articles on the web that can also give you a good grounding: http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/XML http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Tips_and_Tutorials/XML_and_PHP/ http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.xslt.php The first two have a number of articles that are not solely focused on XSLT, rather you can, if you want parse the XML using triggers and therefore present the information depending upon conditions you set in the code. The last link is from the Php home site and contains the actual functions you can use along with a lot of helpful points in the user notes.... read the user notes, especially if you're getting stuck :) You could also try: http://www.phpbuilder.com (use the search in particular) http://www.zend.com - again, have a look over the tutorials and articles under the 'Community' section. Some of them are a bit old but the basic premise is still the same. IF you still get stuck drop a question into the php general group, most ppl will help you out there: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=php.general ta ta paul >--__--__-- > >Message: 37 >From: "Joel Konkle-Parker" >To: "TheList" >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:47:45 -0500 >Subject: [thelist] XLST Server-side >Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >I've asked this question once before, but I didn't really get an >answer that helped me. Right now my site (http://www.ballsome.com) is >written in XML, transformed client-side with XSLT into XHTML/CSS. >Needless to say, that severely restricts our browser potential, and >causes all kinds of other compatibility problems and such. > >So what I need is some kind of solution that can apply the >transformation on the fly as the requests are received, then send >them to the client. My hosting service uses Apache on a UNIX system. > >Does anyone have any (easy-to-understand) advice for this? I've tried >Saxon, but it looks like that's a windows program only. I've also >looked at Xalan, but it looks like that needs server-side java, >something my host doesn't have. > >- -joel > >- --------------------------------------- >http://www.ballsome.com > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use > >iQA/AwUBPTrXoH880CLOJa2eEQJckACfQPXLcihTZhMVDwmHGY5yMa0cLHYAnRIW >ng/ahm7bQUqe+ki73o1sRfWo >=cJqD >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Mon Jul 22 05:12:01 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon Jul 22 05:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tables, IE5 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722104619.027ffc98@216.6.8.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722110253.027ef0a8@216.6.8.1> At 10:57 22/07/2002 +0100, Norman Beresford wrote: >Check the whitespace in the code, it shouldn't make a difference, but IIRC >it does. Between and ? No cigarillo, as they say... no space at all in there, and still the gap appears. The thing is that on a very similar page, there's plenty of white space between tables, and it's not showing the gap. Argh, mutter, grr. Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com +353-1-2365705 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Mon Jul 22 06:41:01 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Mon Jul 22 06:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Flash Free Charts! [was] Free Flash charts? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720183844.00a6aea8@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <004f01c23174$a2ecf200$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> [snip] Does anyone know of a free Flash movie that I can plug values into the HTML params that will allow for the generation of a chart in Flash? (I'm thinking pie charts, bar charts, that sort of thing.) This would be a very cool little addition to the little 'Where are you from?' script I'm going to whip up. [/snip] Frank, I am going mangle your title "Free Flash charts?" to "Flash Free Charts!" If you are using PHP as your scripting environment you can install the GD library and generate chart graphics on the fly. There are many wrappers out there that make the process as simple as pulling the data and generating the chart. The output is a GIF or a JPEG or PNG for which all accessiblility attributes can be included. There are also extensions for ASP to create chart graphics on the fly, but you might ..*gasp*.. have to pay for them. I have found a couple of freebies, but they seem to be more trouble than they are worth. HTH! Jay "Reality is for people who lack imagination" ************************************* * Want to meet other PHP developers * * in your area? Check out: * * http://php.meetup.com/ * * No developer is an island ... * ************************************* From tim at pollenation.net Mon Jul 22 07:23:01 2002 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Mon Jul 22 07:23:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jpeg Statement In-Reply-To: <000f01c22e9f$d3e4f330$53020344@ph.cox.net> Message-ID: <000201c2317c$4f4cbc90$0200a8c0@henry> Statement from jpeg as requested by myself (amongst thousands of others I imagine) http://www.jpeg.org/newsrel1.htm ------------------------------- From Ron.Luther at hp.com Mon Jul 22 07:47:01 2002 From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron) Date: Mon Jul 22 07:47:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ASP 2.0 Functions Message-ID: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A0602F4BA6A@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi Paul, It's kinda 'old school'. It's an attempt to avoid 'systematic bias'. If you _always_ round your numbers up (or down) you end up overstating (or understating) your estimate of the population mean, for example. {Of course, you'd need a pretty darn precise result set for this difference to be 'statistically significant'. But it is theoretically possible.} I'm not sure when people stopped using the 'x.5 to nearest even integer' rounding convention. I think somewhere along the line the education system must have decided it was "too hard" and stopped teaching it. HTH, RonL. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Cowan [mailto:evolt at funkwit.com] I'm fairly sure that round(), in VBScript, rounds to the nearest even integer (e.g. answer mod 2 = 0) when the answer ends exactly in .5. So: 1.5 -> 2 2.5 -> 2 I don't know why that is. From webguy at mail.rit.edu Mon Jul 22 07:58:01 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Mon Jul 22 07:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ASP 2.0 Functions In-Reply-To: <1f6601c23125$4b69efa0$3e02a8c0@cusack> Message-ID: There we go. I guess it's just odd for people like myself who have always been taught to round "up". Thanks for the info! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Had to chip in here. > > I'm fairly sure that round(), in VBScript, rounds to the nearest > even integer (e.g. answer mod 2 = 0) when the answer ends exactly in .5. > > So: > > 1.5 -> 2 > 2.5 -> 2 > 3.5 -> 4 > 4.5 -> 4 > > etc. > > I don't know why that is. But then again, that's how the Australian > government demands that you round GST (consumption tax) calculations, > so there you are. I guess that it's because in the long run, assuming > even distribution of inputs, the "errors" cancel each other out. > > Paul. From carole at pixeltable.com Mon Jul 22 08:03:01 2002 From: carole at pixeltable.com (carole guevin) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:03:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Jpeg Statement In-Reply-To: <000201c2317c$4f4cbc90$0200a8c0@henry> Message-ID: :Statement from jpeg as requested by myself (amongst thousands of others :I imagine) : :http://www.jpeg.org/newsrel1.htm if you need some coverage of the recent Forgent bomb - pls visit netdiver what's new page. It's important to raise awareness in our community concerning this important issue - since at the moment - there is no other *standard* available. Also contacted Richard Clark from jpeg.org and suggested we make a temp board for having people sign in and comment on the issue in order to generate public pressure and awareness; perhaps there are some geeks here that would be willing to build such for free as was done recently for the .org - http://not.invisible.net/signals/bin/000055.shtml - the support comments are here - http://not.invisible.net/MT/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=55;start=0;limit=12. Do you think it a good idea? .c ...new media culture_magazine + portal + http://netdiver.net ..communication design + http://pixeltable.com From ken.kogler at cph.org Mon Jul 22 08:42:05 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:42:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] WHOIS Question Message-ID: I've got a name, contact info, and a NIC handle for some clown who's giving the legal dept at my company a heart attack... any way I can look up a list of all domains this guy owns without having to be psychic and look each one up individually? TIA! --ken From ldelahunty at britstream.com Mon Jul 22 08:42:09 2002 From: ldelahunty at britstream.com (Liam Delahunty) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:42:09 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT- MS Excel Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Main wrote: I have an excel worksheet which i protect it last time with a password, but now I forget about the password, so I can't make any modification for the field, any of you know how to 'crack' ? I have try all the password I can remember, but still no luck. I've used the free version of his for simple passwords in the past, though I'm not sure if it'll unprotect a worksheet... http://www.elcomsoft.com/ae2000pr.html kind regards, Liam From webguru at vsnl.net Mon Jul 22 08:50:01 2002 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:50:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] ASP 2.0 Functions In-Reply-To: References: <1f6601c23125$4b69efa0$3e02a8c0@cusack> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020722192152.024951e8@203.197.12.4> At 06:32 PM 22-07-02, Chris Blessing wrote: >There we go. I guess it's just odd for people like myself who have always >been taught to round "up". Thanks for the info! My way has always been Int(number + 0.5) Madhu From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Jul 22 08:54:02 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:54:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Evolt Membership: Curious of your location In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020722003521.00a6d0a0@mail.interlog.com> References: <3D3B05E8.29739.4BE81E62@localhost> Message-ID: <200207221353.g6MDrdNf021774@leo.evolt.org> > From: Frank > > No, I was going to do the whole deal. Since you run a big piece of the > gambit, I figured I'd get your word on it. At first, for the dns > stuff, I though of writing the script, then handing it over to you. > Since we're down to the simplest solution at this point (select menu & > plain old % display), nothing is being asked of you specifically. gotcha... although you should know i don't have physical access to the boxen -- i just toggle checkboxen... but if there's something i can do, lemme know and if i'm able, i'll give it a go... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com Mon Jul 22 08:58:01 2002 From: JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com (Janet Green) Date: Mon Jul 22 08:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Modify ASP to load pages in frames? Message-ID: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE31F0D5@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com> ASP question - I'm using a freeware script to add a search function to our website, but as the entire site is built in frames, I'm wondering if there's a way to modify the links generated by the script to include the frameset, so the frames (navigation and branding) appear when the link is clicked? Janet www.desmoinesmetro.com From davidu at everydns.net Mon Jul 22 09:00:00 2002 From: davidu at everydns.net (David U.) Date: Mon Jul 22 09:00:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] WHOIS Question References: Message-ID: <004f01c23188$0affe150$3d19fc80@pravda> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Kogler" To: "thelist" Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 8:40 AM Subject: [thelist] WHOIS Question > I've got a name, contact info, and a NIC handle for some clown who's giving > the legal dept at my company a heart attack... any way I can look up a list > of all domains this guy owns without having to be psychic and look each one > up individually? Just to point out -- WHOIS info is completely unverified and it could be totally bous information even if it looks correct. Nothing stops you (or I) from registering a domain in Bill Gates or George Bush's name. In response to your question: Network Solutions allows you to search by NIC handle here: http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois Since the whois has all be split up and no sane person uses NetworkSolutions it probably won't help. HTH, davidu > > TIA! > --ken From k.neirynck at belgacom.net Mon Jul 22 09:06:02 2002 From: k.neirynck at belgacom.net (Kristof Neirynck) Date: Mon Jul 22 09:06:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] request JS help for quiz References: <00ea01c230a6$decd5c20$1d9fb2d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3D3C1181.4080309@belgacom.net> I don't quite see why you'd write it that way this is how I do it Kristof
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Sharon F. Malone wrote: >Dear List: > >I'm not so hot at Javascript and am trying to get a quiz to work using it. Keep getting this error. Wondered if someone could help? > >This is the error message Netscape generates from the console: > >JavaScript Error: [unknown origin]: > >missing ; before statement. > >line 34 char 18 >.....^ > >JavaScript Error: >file:/E|/Sharon/Cheftrain/html/QuizExperiment.html, line 34: > >ButtonGroup has no properties. > >This is the error message EditPlus generates: > >l. 34 char 18 'length' is null or not an object >Code: 0 > > >This is the code: > > function GetSelectedButton(ButtonGroup) >{ > for (var x=0;x if (ButtonGroup[x].checked) return x > return 0 >} > >It generates the error at the "x" to the left of >Best, >Sharon >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sharon F. Malone >"web design and Internet writing services" >http://www.24caratdesign.com >sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com > > From ken.kogler at cph.org Mon Jul 22 09:07:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Mon Jul 22 09:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] WHOIS Question In-Reply-To: <004f01c23188$0affe150$3d19fc80@pravda> Message-ID: > Network Solutions allows you to search by NIC handle here: > http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois That gets me his contact info, but not a listing of all the domains he's registered, which is what I'm after. From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Mon Jul 22 10:25:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Media-specific Stylesheets Message-ID: I'm not sure what you mean, Chris, but let's see if this is what you're after: >will you give an example using standard.css and better.css (or something >like that)? > >how do i properly use the @media thing? An example from http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html#at-media-rule @media print { body {font-size:12pt} } In browsers that support this rule, that would mean that when the pages which reference this style sheet are printed, the default body text size becomes set to 12 point type. If you have referenced every other font-size in your document to that default, then all the text should resize itself accordingly when printed. >and when the @media stylesheet is executed, is it just an add-on or does >it replace the "lower-tech" sheet? It's an add-on, in that it only replaces those rules which are specified within it. IOW, if your main sheet in the above exmaple said body {color:red} then when you printed the page the text would be in 12 point red type. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Mon Jul 22 10:29:07 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:29:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. Message-ID: <000d01c23194$6fc69000$b769fea9@max1> Hi all, Does anyone know how to create a Excel .CSV file from a tab-delimited text file, using ASP? Any hints appreciated. Thanks, Craig. From mike at ahnfire.com Mon Jul 22 10:33:02 2002 From: mike at ahnfire.com (Michael K. Ahn) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:33:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. Message-ID: It's been a little while since I've done it. But pretty much, if you install Excel on the web server, you have the VBA object model for it available to you. Just remember you're using Server.CreateObject to actually instantiate the objects. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Craig [mailto:cd-ml at aardvark.net.au] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:28 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. Hi all, Does anyone know how to create a Excel .CSV file from a tab-delimited text file, using ASP? Any hints appreciated. Thanks, Craig. -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From webguy at mail.rit.edu Mon Jul 22 10:33:07 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:33:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. In-Reply-To: <000d01c23194$6fc69000$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: Craig- You'll want to read up on FSO (FileSystemObject) so you can actually read in the file line by line, replacing the tabs with commas, and writing the line back out to your CSV file. http://www.w3schools.com/asp/asp_ref_filesystem.asp http://www.w3schools.com/asp/asp_ref_textstream.asp HTH! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Hi all, > > Does anyone know how to create a Excel .CSV file from a tab-delimited text > file, using ASP? Any hints appreciated. > > Thanks, > Craig. From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Mon Jul 22 10:37:02 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:37:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] page check please (need a mac person) Message-ID: Tom, You need another percentage point there. IE 5.1.4Mac looks fine after changing 69% to 68%. I think it's because of the various borders added in, but I haven't done the math to check that. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From domitianx at domitianx.com Mon Jul 22 10:54:01 2002 From: domitianx at domitianx.com (Mike Carlson) Date: Mon Jul 22 10:54:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Modify ASP to load pages in frames? Message-ID: There must be a bit of script that will build the links based on the results All you would have to do is edit that bit to add the target="_framename". Is this live somewhere that we could look at or take the code from the script and paste it into a .txt file and post it to the web so we can look at it. Mike http://www.uselessthoughts.com -----Original Message----- From: Janet Green [mailto:JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com] Sent: Mon 7/22/2002 8:57 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Cc: Subject: [thelist] Modify ASP to load pages in frames? ASP question - I'm using a freeware script to add a search function to our website, but as the entire site is built in frames, I'm wondering if there's a way to modify the links generated by the script to include the frameset, so the frames (navigation and branding) appear when the link is clicked? Janet www.desmoinesmetro.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From franz at bluepavo.com Mon Jul 22 11:19:00 2002 From: franz at bluepavo.com (Franz Maruna) Date: Mon Jul 22 11:19:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] cd duplication Message-ID: <001001c2319b$71400c70$0201a8c0@bigbetty> I'm looking for a good price on a CD duplication job... 500 copies, one color label.. fast turn around... any suggestions? -frz From matt at sweetillusions.org Mon Jul 22 11:21:01 2002 From: matt at sweetillusions.org (matt newell) Date: Mon Jul 22 11:21:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] cd duplication In-Reply-To: <001001c2319b$71400c70$0201a8c0@bigbetty> Message-ID: www.mixonic.com high quality and affordable. // matt On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Franz Maruna wrote: > I'm looking for a good price on a CD duplication job... 500 copies, one > color label.. fast turn around... any suggestions? > -frz > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From nickvansmack9 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 22 12:00:01 2002 From: nickvansmack9 at yahoo.com (Nick Dakwick) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Older browsers for use on WinXP Message-ID: <20020722165930.82511.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> Which versions of Netscape and IE can you safely use on XP? How does one install an older version of IE alongside IE6 or is it impossible? I'd like to do some browser compliance testing for my website, how far back do you guys recommend I go, since webstandards seem to go back to compliance on the 4.x level? Thanks! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 12:05:01 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF Message-ID: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Shown this morning on MacRumors.com (but then removed) here is the PDF (thanks to Adam Portnoy): http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/pmg4.pdf Jeff From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 12:10:01 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:10:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [wwwac] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF References: Message-ID: Here I am trying to be nice... giving credit where credit is due... ;-) If I'm going down he can come with me -- we can talk about it in jail :-P/ Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "g r i m m w e r k s" To: "Jeff Wilhelm" ; "WWWAC list" ; Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [wwwac] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF > Oh sure, piss off apple and let them know about Adam too! ;P > > > On 7/22/02 1:04 PM, "Jeff Wilhelm" spewed forth: > > > Shown this morning on MacRumors.com (but then removed) here is the PDF (thanks > > to Adam Portnoy): > > http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/pmg4.pdf > > > > Jeff > > > From ken.kogler at cph.org Mon Jul 22 12:11:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Older browsers for use on WinXP In-Reply-To: <20020722165930.82511.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Which versions of Netscape and IE can you safely use > on XP? You can run any installation of Netscape. IE6 is installed by default, and I'm not sure you can downgrade to 4 or 5. Might be worth checking out at MSDN, though. > I'd like to do some browser compliance testing for my > website, how far back do you guys recommend I go, > since webstandards seem to go back to compliance on > the 4.x level? Bottom line, it should be readable on: NN4 NN6 IE4 IE5 IE6 Moz1 Opera5 Opera6 It should be tested in all these browsers on every available Windows platform as well as all MacOSs you can get your hands on, and of course *nix as well. It should degrade well enough that Lynx and other text-browsers can handle it without problem. It should also read well in screen readers such as Jaws. You cannot install multiple versions of IE within the same operating system. You can, however, install everything else listed above. To accomplish multiple versions of IE, you have to either get VMWare (www.vmware.com), which allows you to run "virtual PCs", or install multiple partitions on your hard drive with a different version of windows on each. Not fair, is it? Isn't testing FUN? :) --ken From luomat at peak.org Mon Jul 22 12:19:01 2002 From: luomat at peak.org (Tim Luoma) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Older browsers for use on WinXP References: <20020722165930.82511.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D3C3DD5.2070205@peak.org> Nick Dakwick wrote: > Which versions of Netscape and IE can you safely use > on XP? I have NN 4.08 and 4.79 installed > How does one install an older version of IE alongside > IE6 or is it impossible? You can only have one IE installed at a time without partitions, or dual boot or something like VMWare There was a page somewhere on microsoft.com about uninstalling IE6 under XP to install a previous version, but I haven't tried it and would only test it on a machine that I didn't have to use daily, just in case it mucked up and needed a reinstall. > I'd like to do some browser compliance testing for my > website, how far back do you guys recommend I go, > since webstandards seem to go back to compliance on > the 4.x level? I check with the latest non-beta versions of Opera, Netscape, IE, and Mozilla. Having someone who has IE5.0 or 5.5 can be handy because there are some gotchas there. If you want to worry about older browsers: NN 4.79 NN 4.08 (last version that didn't come with all the 'cruft' that a lot of folks didn't like) If you are looking to develop with CSS, I highly recommend TopStyle (www.bradsoft.com) as it will flag potential problems in many browsers and even on different OSes TjL From luomat at peak.org Mon Jul 22 12:22:01 2002 From: luomat at peak.org (Tim Luoma) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:22:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Older browsers for use on WinXP References: Message-ID: <3D3C3F2C.5050607@peak.org> Ken Kogler wrote: >>Which versions of Netscape and IE can you safely use >>on XP? > > You can run any installation of Netscape. IE6 is installed by default, and > I'm not sure you can downgrade to 4 or 5. Might be worth checking out at > MSDN, though. I think this is the link we're both referring to: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - Q293907 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;Q293907& TjL ps -- in case anyone doesn't know... old browsers are available at http://browsers.evolt.org (very cool archive btw) From james.glasheen at btinternet.com Mon Jul 22 12:27:01 2002 From: james.glasheen at btinternet.com (Jimmy) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:27:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Help with a simple calculation Message-ID: <005401c231a5$40f8b080$8a3123d9@006033120210> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Can you look at a javascript calculation for me and tell me why it doesn't work? apportionment
Apportionment calculator
PPP healthcare's liability
Other insurer's liability
Total admissible expenses
PPP healthcare's payment
Cheers -- From webguy at mail.rit.edu Mon Jul 22 12:32:02 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:32:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Help with a simple calculation In-Reply-To: <005401c231a5$40f8b080$8a3123d9@006033120210> Message-ID: Jimmy- Try this: document.formula.payment.value = x; Instead of this: x = document.formula.payment.value; hth! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net From xslf at xslf.com Mon Jul 22 12:34:00 2002 From: xslf at xslf.com (Shoshannah Forbes) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:34:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2121A8E0-9D99-11D6-B39D-003065C0167C@xslf.com> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] got a 403- access denied error when attempting to get the file. On Monday, July 22, 2002, at 08:04 PM, Jeff Wilhelm wrote: > Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > X-Evolt: S E X Y !. > > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Shown this morning on MacRumors.com (but then removed) here is the PDF > (thanks to Adam Portnoy): > http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/pmg4.pdf -- From cparker at swatgear.com Mon Jul 22 12:41:00 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:41:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Media-specific Stylesheets Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE0782AA@ati-ex-01.ati.local> d'oh! sorry for the confusion! i'm a moron. i meant to ask "how do you use the @import directive/option?" i think i get it now. and thanks for the info on the @media thing. chris. > -----Original Message----- > From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com [mailto:Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com] > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 8:24 AM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thelist] Media-specific Stylesheets > > > I'm not sure what you mean, Chris, but let's see if this is From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 12:44:01 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Mon Jul 22 12:44:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF References: <2121A8E0-9D99-11D6-B39D-003065C0167C@xslf.com> Message-ID: > got a 403- access denied error when attempting to get the file. Maybe it had a space in it or something... http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/pmg4.pdf still works for me, and people on WWWAC have seen it fine. Jeff From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 13:05:04 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Mon Jul 22 13:05:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [wwwac] pics of powermac References: Message-ID: Ouch that's slow; mirrored: http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/newg42.jpg Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "g r i m m w e r k s" To: "WWWAC list" Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: [wwwac] pics of powermac > > http://www.mosr.com/i/newg42.jpg > > > > ## The World Wide Web Artists' Consortium --- http://www.wwwac.org/ ## > ## To Unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: wwwac-unsubscribe at lists.wwwac.org ## > From webguru at vsnl.net Mon Jul 22 13:11:01 2002 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Mon Jul 22 13:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020722233958.0247f9f0@203.197.12.4> At 09:03 PM 22-07-02, Michael K. Ahn wrote: >It's been a little while since I've done it. But pretty much, if you >install Excel on the web server, you have the VBA object model for it >available to you. Just remember you're using Server.CreateObject to >actually instantiate the objects. Let's hope you don't have too many people accessing it simultaneously. It's one sure way to bring a server down. :) Here's a related article, btw: http://www.15seconds.com/Issue/970515.htm Regards, Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From james.glasheen at btinternet.com Mon Jul 22 13:32:00 2002 From: james.glasheen at btinternet.com (Jimmy) Date: Mon Jul 22 13:32:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Help with a simple calculation References: Message-ID: <009401c231ae$45603a40$8a3123d9@006033120210> Nice one!! Appreciate the quick response. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Blessing" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [thelist] Help with a simple calculation > Jimmy- > > Try this: > > document.formula.payment.value = x; > > Instead of this: > > x = document.formula.payment.value; > > hth! > > Chris Blessing > webguy at mail.rit.edu > http://www.330i.net > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From cparker at swatgear.com Mon Jul 22 14:15:03 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:15:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS: suggestions for handling forms and other random styles Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033054@ati-ex-01.ati.local> hi. in using css i consistently come across the same situation. the random one time (maybe 2 or 3) use of a piece of text. for example... in a form i'm working on right now i think that
works well to define the different sections of the form. i.e. Shipping Information at the same time though, i might have some sort of instruction that goes along with Shipping Information like "(If different from Billing Information)" this leads me to mark it up like this...
Shipping Information

(If different from Billing Information)

the problem is that of course they are block elements (is this correct?) and thus

makes a new paragraph. option 1: define in my stylesheet no padding like so... h1, h2, h3, h4, h5 { padding: 0px 0px 0px 0px; } option 2: add a style to the h5 tag like so...

however i don't like using the style attribute since it defeats the whole purpose of a stylesheet. (considering if you want to change the style of the headers you have to change each one. option 3: define a class for this particular occurence like so... .noPadding { padding: 0px 0px 0px 0px; } option 4: define a class that i would use in a span. .formHeading { font size; font weight; font color; padding; ...etc... } so, how do you all think i should handle these odds and ends? thanks, chris. From andy at mellowbeats.com Mon Jul 22 14:26:01 2002 From: andy at mellowbeats.com (Andy Avgousti) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:26:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] FW: Re:Older browsers for use on WinXP Message-ID: <000001c231b6$4021c8c0$ccb25651@andy84dqgjgoqb> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hi Nick It is not possible to install two versions of Internet Explorer in Windows XP. Also, I have yet to find a way of removing IE6 from XP (there were no support notes on this on Microsoft.com last I looked, although it is possible on Windows 2000). There are three options as far as I can see: 1) Buy another PC and install Windows 98 on it - then use IE 5 on this 2) Set up a dual boot on your existing PC between Win98 and XP. The best way to do this is to install Win98 first, then XP - there is plenty of info about this on the net. 3) Have a look at VirtualPC by Connectix - this allows you to install many different operating systems within your single computer, simply by opening up each one in a new window on your desktop. It's very clever, but very processor hungry and it's the only program that's ever crashed XP for me! At the moment I am running both Netscape 4.7 and Netscape 6.23 without a problem in XP, as well as Opera 6, and running IE5 on my spare PC. I recommend validating all your pages to current W3C standards. As N4 still holds around 5% market share, I also feel it is important to consider it in all your designs, and make sure your page looks as good as possible in it. Sometimes you may want to consider a second style sheet just for N4, but I would definitely avoid 'fudging' your actual page code for the sake of older browsers as you never know what new browsers will make of sloppy code! Hope that helps a bit Andy http://www.steelcityinternet.co.uk Nick Darwick wrote: Which versions of Netscape and IE can you safely use on XP? How does one install an older version of IE alongside IE6 or is it impossible? I'd like to do some browser compliance testing for my website, how far back do you guys recommend I go, since webstandards seem to go back to compliance on the 4.x level? Thanks! -- From JFarmand at coj.net Mon Jul 22 14:27:01 2002 From: JFarmand at coj.net (Jonathan Farmand) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:27:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] IE5 for Mac Problem Message-ID: Hi, we are having a problem with internet explorer 5.0 for the Mac. On the website we are developing, there is a menu at the bottom, which is docked in every browser except IE5 for the Mac. On this browser the menu appears in the middle of the screen on top of the main content, as if it is in its own layer. Also, the menu floats when this page is scrolled up or down. The website is currently behind a firewall so it cannot be viewed right now, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks. From ken.kogler at cph.org Mon Jul 22 14:28:00 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:28:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS: suggestions for handling forms and other random styles In-Reply-To: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033054@ati-ex-01.ati.local> Message-ID: > so, how do you all think i should > handle these odds and ends? Assuming you can make it work in your target browsers, it really comes down to personal preference. There's many ways to do this that would validate both technically (validator.w3c.org) and semantically (meaning it makes sense). Personally, I'd do something like:
Shipping and Receiving
(If different from Billing Information)
And then set the styles appropriately in the stylesheet. But again, that's *my* way of accomplishing it. Eric Meyer and Craig Salia might not do it the same way (and if not, go with what they do - I would! :) --ken From pixelmech at yahoo.com Mon Jul 22 14:33:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:33:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] IE5 for Mac Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020722193234.11206.qmail@web12602.mail.yahoo.com> Jon, can you post some code? Pretty tough without something to see. IE5 for mac has trouble with floats to start with. Tom --- Jonathan Farmand wrote: > Hi, we are having a problem with internet explorer 5.0 for the Mac. > On > the website we are developing, there is a menu at the bottom, which > is > docked in every browser except IE5 for the Mac. On this browser the > menu > appears in the middle of the screen on top of the main content, as > if it > is in its own layer. Also, the menu floats when this page is > scrolled up > or down. The website is currently behind a firewall so it cannot be > viewed right now, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From JFarmand at coj.net Mon Jul 22 14:45:07 2002 From: JFarmand at coj.net (Jonathan Farmand) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:45:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] IE5 for Mac Problem Message-ID: here is the code for the menu, there's nothing tricky in here or anything, which is why we are stumped. its just basic html:
Mayor - City Council - Jobs - About Jax - I want to... - I am... - Services - Departments
630-CITY(2489) - Site Policies - Webmaster © 2002 City of Jacksonville
>>> pixelmech at yahoo.com 07/22/02 03:32PM >>> Jon, can you post some code? Pretty tough without something to see. IE5 for mac has trouble with floats to start with. Tom --- Jonathan Farmand wrote: > Hi, we are having a problem with internet explorer 5.0 for the Mac. > On > the website we are developing, there is a menu at the bottom, which > is > docked in every browser except IE5 for the Mac. On this browser the > menu > appears in the middle of the screen on top of the main content, as > if it > is in its own layer. Also, the menu floats when this page is > scrolled up > or down. The website is currently behind a firewall so it cannot be > viewed right now, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From cparker at swatgear.com Mon Jul 22 14:55:01 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Mon Jul 22 14:55:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] CSS: suggestions for handling forms and other randomstyles Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE0782AD@ati-ex-01.ati.local> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Kogler [mailto:ken.kogler at cph.org] > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 12:27 PM > > > so, how do you all think i should > > handle these odds and ends? > > Personally, I'd do something like: > >
Shipping and Receiving
> > (If different from Billing Information) > >
that looks good to me. any other ideas people? chris. From grimmwerks at grimmwerks.com Mon Jul 22 15:02:01 2002 From: grimmwerks at grimmwerks.com (g r i m m w e r k s) Date: Mon Jul 22 15:02:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [wwwac] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh sure, piss off apple and let them know about Adam too! ;P On 7/22/02 1:04 PM, "Jeff Wilhelm" spewed forth: > Shown this morning on MacRumors.com (but then removed) here is the PDF (thanks > to Adam Portnoy): > http://www.jeffwilhelm.com/files/pmg4.pdf > > Jeff > From adam at static-motion.com Mon Jul 22 15:02:05 2002 From: adam at static-motion.com (Adam Portnoy) Date: Mon Jul 22 15:02:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [wwwac] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geez, don't check the list for a few minutes and I'm in jail doing horrible things. Anyway, I couldn't buy a new Pro Mac from jail so it would probably be in Apple's best interest to keep me out of the slammer. A On 7/22/02 1:10 PM, "g r i m m w e r k s" wrote: > On 7/22/02 1:09 PM, "Jeff Wilhelm" spewed forth: > >> If I'm going down he can come with me -- we can talk about it in jail :-P/ > > > Strange, I WOULD put 'going down' and 'in jail' in the same sentence, but > not in that configuration... > > > > ## The World Wide Web Artists' Consortium --- http://www.wwwac.org/ ## > ## To Unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: wwwac-unsubscribe at lists.wwwac.org ## > > From grimmwerks at grimmwerks.com Mon Jul 22 15:02:15 2002 From: grimmwerks at grimmwerks.com (g r i m m w e r k s) Date: Mon Jul 22 15:02:15 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [wwwac] Apple "Pro Mac" PDF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/22/02 1:09 PM, "Jeff Wilhelm" spewed forth: > If I'm going down he can come with me -- we can talk about it in jail :-P/ Strange, I WOULD put 'going down' and 'in jail' in the same sentence, but not in that configuration... From notabene at members.evolt.org Mon Jul 22 15:21:01 2002 From: notabene at members.evolt.org (s t e f) Date: Mon Jul 22 15:21:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Evolt Membership: Curious of your location In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020721205029.00a037f0@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722214209.00a039f0@members.evolt.org> > > I agree with Shoshannah: how would you guess I'm from France? > >Since you asked... :-) > > >From this line in your mail headers: > >Received: from mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.25]) > by leo.evolt.org (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id g6LJ8nNf007414 > for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:08:49 -0500 Yeah, right. You got me on that one :-) (but I could have posted from the webmail interface, though, couldn't I? mmmmh? ;-) My professional address is @francetelecom.com, so basically it's french, right? But they've got offices all around the world. Anyway. I guess we're turning away from this solution, aren't we? From CDitty at email.usps.gov Mon Jul 22 15:42:01 2002 From: CDitty at email.usps.gov (Chris Ditty) Date: Mon Jul 22 15:42:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Customer received product and is disputing payment Message-ID: <0033000073492282000002L022*@MHS> Hello all. Hope your day is turning out better than mine is. As some of you know, I run a site called Games4YourSite.com. On this site, I sell some of the games that I write to fellow webmasters. I offer a money back guarantee if I am unable to install the game. Well, back at the beginning of June, I sold a game to someone. This person wanted to install the game themselves and I told them that if I did not install it, that the guarantee did not apply. He was fine with this and actually replied back saying "I am fine with the no money back guarantee." (or something along those lines). I sent him the code and never heard from him again. Anyhow, today, I find out that he has disputed the charge with his credit card company and that my credit card processing company has hit me with a return along with a dispute charge. The damage? A hefty $525 to my already depleated pocketbook. My processor is going to look into this and asked for any emails that I might have. Luckily, I still have all the original email correspondance between us. My question is this, what can I do to make sure that he doesn't just take my product and run? I am planning on calling him tonight when I get in and touching base with him on this. I hope that this is some type of misunderstanding, but I serious doubt it. When I go to his site, it is now up for sale. I think he probably just decided to close down before he went live and wanted to cut his loses. Should I call him? If I do, should I record it? What actions can I take? Any advice on this would be GREATLY appreciated. If you send a private reply, please send it to webmaster at redhotsweeps.com. Thanks Chris From headlemur at clearskymail.com Mon Jul 22 16:34:00 2002 From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur) Date: Mon Jul 22 16:34:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] For PHP Users Message-ID: <009801c231c7$b1ef5420$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com> Serious PHP vulnerability reported "The PHP form-data POST handler is susceptible to a malicious POST request that can trigger an error condition which, depending on your hardware, can crash the machine or provide for remote exploitation. On an Intel x86 machine an attacker has no control over memory allocation/recovery and can only cause a denial of service; on a Sparc/Solaris machine an attacker would be able to free chunks of memory and overwrite them arbitrarily to run code. PHP versions 4.2.0 and 4.2.1 are vulnerable. The PHP Group has released both a fixed version and patches, including binaries for Windows, available for download here. If immediate tinkering proves inconvenient, the team recommends a temporary workaround of denying POST requests on any affected servers." Source: The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/26316.html the head lemur News: http://www.lemurzone.com/news/ Interviews: http://www.lemurzone.com/pixelview/ Standards: http://webstandards.org Community: http://www.evolt.org From notabene at members.evolt.org Mon Jul 22 16:49:02 2002 From: notabene at members.evolt.org (s t e f) Date: Mon Jul 22 16:49:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Customer received product and is disputing payment In-Reply-To: <0033000073492282000002L022*@MHS> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722233534.009ef450@members.evolt.org> >My question is this, what can I do to make sure that he doesn't just take my >product and run? I am planning on calling him tonight when I get in and >touching base with him on this. I hope that this is some type of >misunderstanding, but I serious doubt it. When I go to his site, it is now up >for sale. I think he probably just decided to close down before he went live >and wanted to cut his loses. > >Should I call him? If I do, should I record it? What actions can I take? Mmmh, recording is not an option in my country (France again). Here it's considered illegal, since it tackles on the other part's privacy. Anyway there's something called copyright. If you can prove your work existed before the other and if you can show it's the same code line for line, you're on to win a trial. I'd wave this kind of scary thought before my "client's" eyes, if I were you. Copyright infringement is punishable almost everywhere, isn't it? Especially since you can prove he contracted with you and then rertacted his payment. My 2 cents FWIW... s t e f ----------------------------------- q u o t e o f t h e d a y : If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think they'll hate you. ----------------------------------- From shanx at shanx.com Mon Jul 22 18:45:00 2002 From: shanx at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Mon Jul 22 18:45:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT: Patent lawyer recommendations Message-ID: <00af01c231d9$953a10b0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK> Sorry for this OT post, but I am looking for recommendations of good, cost effective patent lawyers from the US. Thanks a bunch in advance. Shashank Shashank Tripathi www.shanx.com >From MySQL 4.0.1 onwards you can do full text search for partial word segments: SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE MATCH(mycol) AGAINST('micro*' IN BOOLEAN MODE); From RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org Mon Jul 22 19:21:02 2002 From: RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org (Rebecca Milot-Bradford) Date: Mon Jul 22 19:21:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes Message-ID: I find myself spending more and more time just maintaining our company site, with less and less time available for developing new "stuff." This is frustrating for me, because, well, maintaining is not nearly as interesting as building new. This is frustrating for my co-workers because they don't understand why I can't just keep building and building. It is frustrating for management because they don't understand why I am insisting that I need a slice of the budget pie. So here are my questions for all of you: 1) Are there any figures out there showing how much it costs to maintain a page? (I've searched Google and come up with nothing.) Or any suggestions about how to figure out what it costs us? In the eyes of people here, it costs nothing, since they are paying my salary regardless. 2) Does anyone have ideas about how to convince management that we need more manpower if we want to keep expanding the site? Sorry for sounding whiney! Becky From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Mon Jul 22 19:36:01 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Mon Jul 22 19:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] XML - EXCLUDE statements Message-ID: <007901c231e0$7e949fe0$34e8b3d1@oemcomputer> Am putting together a P3P Policy for a client and haven't worked in XML before. I'd like to write multiple EXCLUDE statements and am wondering if I need to put an open and close tag for each directory I want to exclude, as follows: /* /bubbleforms* /cgi-bin* /faq* /files* /zip* Or, can I write it another way? Best, Sharon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From danieljohnfrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 22 20:41:01 2002 From: danieljohnfrey at yahoo.com (Daniel Frey) Date: Mon Jul 22 20:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tables, IE5 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020722104619.027ffc98@216.6.8.1> Message-ID: <001601c231ea$270e44b0$0b00a8c0@dan> >Internet Explorer v. 5 is leaving a gap - about one pixel wide - between >tables on a page I'm workin on. I've tried eliminating line breaks, margin >stuff, and so on. This always seems to make my tables happy: HTH, Dan From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Mon Jul 22 20:47:01 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Mon Jul 22 20:47:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] request JS help for quiz References: <00ea01c230a6$decd5c20$1d9fb2d1@oemcomputer> <3D3C1181.4080309@belgacom.net> Message-ID: <00e401c231ea$65556a00$34e8b3d1@oemcomputer> Hi Kristol - When I tried re-writing it (because each question is wrapped in <.form><./form> tags!!!!!!), it totally bombed. Since my JS knowledge is not so hot, I worked around the original code and got it to work. Thanks for the quiz code you provided. I'll work with it the next time. Best, Sharon From: "Kristof Neirynck" Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:06 AM > I don't quite see why you'd write it that way > this is how I do it > > Kristof > > > > >
onsubmit="alert(getValue('quizform','question_01'));return false;"> > What's the number?
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From dbindel at austin.rr.com Mon Jul 22 22:56:00 2002 From: dbindel at austin.rr.com (David Bindel) Date: Mon Jul 22 22:56:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > I find myself spending more and more time just maintaining our > company site, with less and less time available for developing > new "stuff." This is frustrating for me, because, well, > maintaining is not nearly as interesting as building new. This > is frustrating for my co-workers because they don't understand > why I can't just keep building and building. It is frustrating > for management because they don't understand why I am insisting > that I need a slice of the budget pie. So here are my questions > for all of you: > > 1) Are there any figures out there showing how much it costs to > maintain a page? (I've searched Google and come up with nothing.) > Or any suggestions about how to figure out what it costs us? In the > eyes of people here, it costs nothing, since they are paying my > salary regardless. I'm really not sure about this. I'll defer to [someone else], who is much more qualified to answer this question than I. > 2) Does anyone have ideas about how to convince management that > we need more > manpower if we want to keep expanding the site? If your website is organized into departments, take a person from each department and teach them some basic HTML. You might need to make some kind of interface so they can only edit the basic content to protect them and the page. But then let them take care of the basic updates, and you'll have more time to work on the functionality of the website. Just my $0.02 David Bindel -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPTzTlbwc2umqeOxSEQKQBgCcCNZIUWiCznjg404uHzUcN5OKuEgAn327 ILwiCDkI48QiWpAvMmW48zUi =n1Lj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From josh at eaccessit.com Mon Jul 22 23:52:00 2002 From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh) Date: Mon Jul 22 23:52:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: <00e401c231ea$65556a00$34e8b3d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c23204$890d6690$6401a8c0@xyz> I need to write a visual basic program that will do its thing every hour. I don't know whether there is something that will run the program every hour or if I need to make the program run in the background somehow and use a timer. Thanks, Josh From gracepcs at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 23:53:01 2002 From: gracepcs at hotmail.com (Main) Date: Mon Jul 22 23:53:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT- MS Excel Protection References: Message-ID: Liam, Thank you very much. It works ! I can't express how happy I am now, because I don't want to re-write the whole scripts. Thanks. Thanks a million. Regards, grace I've used the free version of his for simple passwords in the past, though I'm not sure if it'll unprotect a worksheet... http://www.elcomsoft.com/ae2000pr.html kind regards, Liam From headlines at lists.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 00:11:01 2002 From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines) Date: Tue Jul 23 00:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 22-JUL-02 Message-ID: <200207230510.g6N5A1vD018718@leo.evolt.org> evolt.org headlines for 22-JUL-02 Hi evolters! We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone else: Code: Guidelines for the use of (Author: KUQ) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/17/32852/index.html Some guidelines for when (not) to use Site Development: Using PHP for Date Processing in Forms (Author: jacksonyee) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/20/33733/index.html A short overview describing PHP functions which can make using date fields in forms much easier for you. Jobs: Sr, Database / SAS developer (recruiter) NYC (Author: jommelli) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/23/34365/index.html Senior Database Developer needed for a NYC financial services organization. Key skills include MS SQL-Server and SAS Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site. Happy reading! evolt.org From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Jul 23 00:15:01 2002 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jul 23 00:15:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: <000001c23204$890d6690$6401a8c0@xyz> Message-ID: On Jul 22, Josh had something to say about [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule > > >I need to write a visual basic program that will do its thing every >hour. I don't know whether there is something that will run the program >every hour or if I need to make the program run in the background >somehow and use a timer. Is this something that you're going to distribute and therefore needs to be easily installed/configured? You can schedule the program to run, but I don't know if you can automate the scheduling (what i mean is: i'm not sure if you can have an installation program schedule, and you might have to have the person installing set up the scheduling, which isn't ideal if you're going to be distributing the program). -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Tue Jul 23 01:30:01 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Tue Jul 23 01:30:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. References: <000d01c23194$6fc69000$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: <000901c23212$5d73b760$b769fea9@max1> Thanks for the replies. The article that Madhu Menon sent explained it perfectly. Regards, Craig. From joel at spinhead.com Tue Jul 23 02:00:01 2002 From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Tue Jul 23 02:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes Message-ID: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > 2) Does anyone have ideas about how to convince management > that we need more manpower if we want to keep expanding the site? Hi Becky, This shouldn't require a *lot* of convincing if management understands basic business principles, but that's not always the case. What we've done is maintain a log of every request for updates, additions, modifications to the site. The only stuff I don't track are tasks which take less time to perform than to log. Otherwise, it goe on the list. Shows how much I'm doing, and gives me a tool for prioritizing. If you show a consistent log of time spent maintaining the current site, it should be evident that expansion into new areas is going to slow if the staff isn't increased. Management likes to see numbers and charts and visual stuff. Speak to them in their language, and they'll get the message. joel From jonhall at ozline.net Tue Jul 23 04:58:01 2002 From: jonhall at ozline.net (Jon Hall) Date: Tue Jul 23 04:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using ASP, create a Excel .CSV file from a text file. In-Reply-To: <000901c23212$5d73b760$b769fea9@max1> References: <000d01c23194$6fc69000$b769fea9@max1> <000901c23212$5d73b760$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: <9961728891.20020723055744@ozline.net> Just in case...you mentioned ASP, but if you have SQL Server, you can set up a dts package to do this in about 15 minutes, that can be run from your ASP script. I don't think any other tool is as valuable as DTS to me...I couldn't count how much time it has saved me. -- jon mailto:jonhall at ozline.net Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 2:29:26 AM, you wrote: C> Thanks for the replies. The article that Madhu Menon sent explained it C> perfectly. C> Regards, C> Craig. From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jul 23 05:10:01 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jul 23 05:10:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using quotes to surround a @import url References: <01c230f1$104368e0$db5d1dd1@rudy> Message-ID: <021601c23230$956f17e0$34e8b3d1@oemcomputer> On Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:59 PM, Rudy wrote: > hi sharon > > that would depend on which browsers you're targetting > > have another look at the chart -- > > http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/summary/ > > or go "up a level" > > http://pixels.pixelpark.com/~koch/hide_css_from_browsers/ > > if your css creates problems specifically in netscape 4 only, you can use a > different hack, er, strategy -- > > Caio Chassot's Hiding CSS from Netscape 4 > (the /*/*/ comment) > http://www.v2studio.com/k/css/n4hide/ Hi Rudy - Re the @import url syntax ... just exactly what I was looking for...to a tee! I was also trying to get more information re using media="all" 'cause I was toying with that idea too. Thank you ~so~ much for the links. Best, Sharon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From hershelr at netvision.net.il Tue Jul 23 06:38:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Tue Jul 23 06:38:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> I have accepted recently to build a web robot which will search for certain data on certain specific websites. The client estimates that the maximal search will consist of on the order of 1800 searches apiece on 13 different websites. The web sites are databases and are intended to be searched by actual web surfers. My concern, however, is that most human surfers do not perform 1800 searches each separated by a few milliseconds. :) I asked the client about asking the 13 sites if they would mind but he is uncertain because if they do mind then what do we do? He had an idea to rotate through the 13 sites, performing 5 or 10 searches on each at a time. This would spread out the searches a bit. I still don't think this will look like a human user however. Our latest idea is to break the search into pieces and do a section at a time, separating the sections by a significant length of time, like at least an hour. Question 1: Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do I need to be concerned that the sites will notice that they are being searched by a robot? Will they mind? They are not the sort of sites that would be popular among robots I don't think--they are somewhat industry-specific. Question 2: Does anyone know of a *reliable* host who actually has *good* customer support to host such a site? The client thinks he wants a Windows platform and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a month, but the bulk of that will be download not upload. When dealing with a new client in a freelance relationship, always ask for some form of payment up front. It doesn't have to be before you actually begin to work and it doesn't have to be a huge amount, but it is important to get something paid early on. This insures the seriousness of and fiscal health of your new client before you waste a month (or two) of work. Thanks, Hershel PS: For those of you who remember my question a week or two ago about how to estimate a job, this is that big fish I wrote about and I hooked him for an excellent price, thanks to advice from evolters! From john at evolt.org.uk Tue Jul 23 06:43:00 2002 From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar) Date: Tue Jul 23 06:43:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Hershel Robinson > Sent: 23 July 2002 13:45 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] My first Robot > > The client thinks he wants a > Windows platform > and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a > month The client is, unfortunately, mistaken. Throw that much crap through a Windows box and the hard disk'll be swiss cheese inside 3 months from fragmentation. And defragging a production server basically means taking it offline for about 6 hours. /me learned this one the hard way. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 8933 1494 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 10/07/2002 From masonc at masonc.com Tue Jul 23 06:45:01 2002 From: masonc at masonc.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue Jul 23 06:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601c2323e$53e1e6f0$7300a8c0@poseiden> I don't believe that teaching people HTML is the solution, they'll never get it or feel comfortable with it, and you are likely to end up with a big mess as there is no real way to enforce standards and design. We have a multi-editor website project with non-technical contributors at www.anguillaguide.com - we use an open-source based content management system to allow non-tech users to add and edit, we have a permissions system that controls access to the parts they are allowed to edit, and the tag language is simple to learn. All they really need is the ability to add an image, designate a header 1, header 2, bold and add an email address or link. Images are handled by the code so they don't have to know how to resize, ftp, or do thumbnails. There's also a WYSIWYG client which makes adding information as easy as using a word processor. If you need more information send me an email, Chris -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of David Bindel Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:55 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] web site maintenance woes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > I find myself spending more and more time just maintaining our > company site, with less and less time available for developing > new "stuff." This is frustrating for me, because, well, > maintaining is not nearly as interesting as building new. This > is frustrating for my co-workers because they don't understand > why I can't just keep building and building. It is frustrating > for management because they don't understand why I am insisting > that I need a slice of the budget pie. So here are my questions > for all of you: > > 1) Are there any figures out there showing how much it costs to > maintain a page? (I've searched Google and come up with nothing.) > Or any suggestions about how to figure out what it costs us? In the > eyes of people here, it costs nothing, since they are paying my > salary regardless. I'm really not sure about this. I'll defer to [someone else], who is much more qualified to answer this question than I. > 2) Does anyone have ideas about how to convince management that > we need more > manpower if we want to keep expanding the site? If your website is organized into departments, take a person from each department and teach them some basic HTML. You might need to make some kind of interface so they can only edit the basic content to protect them and the page. But then let them take care of the basic updates, and you'll have more time to work on the functionality of the website. Just my $0.02 David Bindel -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPTzTlbwc2umqeOxSEQKQBgCcCNZIUWiCznjg404uHzUcN5OKuEgAn327 ILwiCDkI48QiWpAvMmW48zUi =n1Lj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Tue Jul 23 07:06:01 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Tue Jul 23 07:06:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] For PHP Users In-Reply-To: <009801c231c7$b1ef5420$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com> Message-ID: <001601c23241$62e39420$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> [snip] Serious PHP vulnerability reported ... PHP versions 4.2.0 and 4.2.1 are vulnerable. The PHP Group has released both a fixed version and patches, including binaries for Windows, available for download here. ... [/snip] Here is the announcement from the PHP list PHP Security Advisory: Vulnerability in PHP versions 4.2.0 and 4.2.1 Issued on: July 22, 2002 Software: PHP versions 4.2.0 and 4.2.1 Platforms: All The PHP Group has learned of a serious security vulnerability in PHP versions 4.2.0 and 4.2.1. An intruder may be able to execute arbitrary code with the privileges of the web server. This vulnerability may be exploited to compromise the web server and, under certain conditions, to gain privileged access. Description PHP contains code for intelligently parsing the headers of HTTP POST requests. The code is used to differentiate between variables and files sent by the user agent in a "multipart/form-data" request. This parser has insufficient input checking, leading to the vulnerability. The vulnerability is exploitable by anyone who can send HTTP POST requests to an affected web server. Both local and remote users, even from behind firewalls, may be able to gain privileged access. Impact Both local and remote users may exploit this vulnerability to compromise the web server and, under certain conditions, to gain privileged access. So far only the IA32 platform has been verified to be safe from the execution of arbitrary code. The vulnerability can still be used on IA32 to crash PHP and, in most cases, the web server. Solution The PHP Group has released a new PHP version, 4.2.2, which incorporates a fix for the vulnerability. All users of affected PHP versions are encouraged to upgrade to this latest version. The downloads web site at http://www.php.net/downloads.php has the new 4.2.2 source tarballs, Windows binaries and source patches from 4.2.0 and 4.2.1 available for download. Workaround If the PHP applications on an affected web server do not rely on HTTP POST input from user agents, it is often possible to deny POST requests on the web server. In the Apache web server, for example, this is possible with the following code included in the main configuration file or a top-level .htaccess file: Order deny,allow Deny from all Note that an existing configuration and/or .htaccess file may have parameters contradicting the example given above. Credits The PHP Group would like to thank Stefan Esser of e-matters GmbH for discovering this vulnerability. Copyright (c) 2002 The PHP Group. Jay From miriam at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 07:28:01 2002 From: miriam at members.evolt.org (Miriam) Date: Tue Jul 23 07:28:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: <002601c2323e$53e1e6f0$7300a8c0@poseiden> Message-ID: > at www.anguillaguide.com - we use an open-source based content > management system to allow non-tech users to add and edit, we have a > permissions system that controls access to the parts they are allowed to > edit, and the tag language is simple to learn. All they really need is > the ability to add an image, designate a header 1, header 2, bold and > add an email address or link. > > Images are handled by the code so they don't have to know how to resize, > ftp, or do thumbnails. > > There's also a WYSIWYG client which makes adding information as easy as > using a word processor. > > If you need more information send me an email, Ooooh I'm putting together the intranet and am going to be facing the same issues. Actually, I'd like to get them maintaining content on the real site, too. Can you give me more information about what you're using? That sounds delightful --- thanks in advance! Miriam -- www.dynagirl.com Your Ruby Satellite Control System since 1971 From peter at duo.be Tue Jul 23 07:39:01 2002 From: peter at duo.be (Peter Duchateau) Date: Tue Jul 23 07:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm also interested in that content management system. on 23-07-2002 14:32, Miriam at miriam at members.evolt.org wrote: > >> at www.anguillaguide.com - we use an open-source based content >> management system to allow non-tech users to add and edit, we have a >> permissions system that controls access to the parts they are allowed to >> edit, and the tag language is simple to learn. All they really need is >> the ability to add an image, designate a header 1, header 2, bold and >> add an email address or link. >> >> Images are handled by the code so they don't have to know how to resize, >> ftp, or do thumbnails. >> >> There's also a WYSIWYG client which makes adding information as easy as >> using a word processor. >> >> If you need more information send me an email, > > > > Ooooh I'm putting together the intranet and am going to be facing the same > issues. Actually, I'd like to get them maintaining content on the real site, > too. Can you give me more information about what you're using? That sounds > delightful --- > > thanks in advance! > > Miriam > > > -- > www.dynagirl.com > Your Ruby Satellite Control System since 1971 From framar at interlog.com Tue Jul 23 07:46:01 2002 From: framar at interlog.com (Frank) Date: Tue Jul 23 07:46:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723084039.00a9c710@mail.interlog.com> At 02:44 PM 7/23/2002 +0200, you wrote: >I asked the client about asking the 13 sites if they would mind but he is >uncertain because if they do mind then what do we do? I would consider this one quite carefully, because once you've built it, and he's paid for it, and the admins of the 13 sites notices, and cuts you off, then what do you do? Business based on any degree of duplicity beyond typical marketing is potentially worth thinking twice about. It's like building a house on quick sand. Sometimes it's worth while to take the time to communicate with the site owner, this way you won't have to nervously count how long before they cut you off and take you to court. Another idea might be to look at the site's usuage policies, or ask them. My meddlin' 2 cents. -- This message and any attachment it may have has been found free of viruses before sending. Viral contagion is on the rise and Microsoft systems are particularly vulnerable. Our responsibility as good Internet citizens is to ensure that we prevent transmitting viruses by keeping our own machine safe. Please see the following article: http://www.frankmarion.com/VirusPrimer.html Frank Marion framar at interlog.com From ccosta at servidores.net Tue Jul 23 07:52:01 2002 From: ccosta at servidores.net (Carlos Costa Portela) Date: Tue Jul 23 07:52:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have some of you played with Zope?. Perhaps it is a good solution. Good luck, Carlos. On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Peter Duchateau wrote: > I'm also interested in that content management system. _______Carlos Costa Portela_________________________________________________ | e-mail: ccosta at servidores.net | home page: http://casa.ccp.servidores.net | |_____T?dalas persoas maiores foron nenos antes, pero poucas se lembran______| From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 08:05:00 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 08:05:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: <000001c23204$890d6690$6401a8c0@xyz> Message-ID: Josh- You could use the Windows Task Scheduler, and your setup program could automatically add the scheduled event (not sure if this is a registry entry or a file somewhere). Alternatively your program could run all the time, and only do its thing based on an internal schedule that it keeps up with. hth! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > I need to write a visual basic program that will do its thing every > hour. I don't know whether there is something that will run the program > every hour or if I need to make the program run in the background > somehow and use a timer. > > Thanks, > Josh From jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk Tue Jul 23 08:14:01 2002 From: jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk (Jon Haworth) Date: Tue Jul 23 08:14:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule Message-ID: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3F010C447D@BOOTROS> Hi Josh, > I need to write a visual basic program that will do its thing every > hour. I don't know whether there is something that will run the > program every hour or if I need to make the program run in the > background somehow and use a timer. I think you've got two options: - Write a normal .exe with no forms, just a sub main, and get it to run every hour from Task Scheduler - Write a service that runs permanently, with a timer control that runs your code every hour Note that services are not ideal when written in VB: it just isn't designed for this sort of thing. You'll have real problems getting it to do just about anything with the outside world - if you want to use ODBC or ADO, or if you want to automate something, you should look at a C or C# service instead. There's more stuff about services, and a control you'll need, at: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;Q170883& Cheers Jon There are some *excellent* visual basic lists out there: Beginners: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/visbas-beginners.html Advanced : http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/visbas-l.html From trevuk at lycos.co.uk Tue Jul 23 08:14:05 2002 From: trevuk at lycos.co.uk (Trev) Date: Tue Jul 23 08:14:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's Message-ID: Hi I'm a newbie with php/mysql, so I appologise if this has been asked before, but I'm having big trouble trying to get a php script to retrieve url's from a MySQL DB as my ISP won't allow images to be stored as BLOB data on there MySQL server. So I'm trying to get a script to retrieve a URL to the image path by using the id of the URL in my DB, this get's around my ISP's limitations on the use of there MySQL server and stops people leeching etc, so I can generate a link from the DB, if anyone can give me a point in the right direction that would be great, as it's driving me mad. Thanks for any help ;) Trev Pearson. From simon at incutio.com Tue Jul 23 08:15:00 2002 From: simon at incutio.com (Simon Willison) Date: Tue Jul 23 08:15:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723084039.00a9c710@mail.interlog.com> References: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020723141355.00b1ce60@mail.incutio.com> At 08:45 23/07/2002 -0400, Frank wrote: >Another idea might be to look at the site's usuage policies, or ask them. Or at the very least check out their robots.txt files. From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 08:28:00 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Tue Jul 23 08:28:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's References: Message-ID: Well where exactly are you running into the problem? Can you get the data INTO the database and just not out? Can you get the data OUT but just can't get it to work in a URL? Where exactly are you running into a problem? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trev" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:02 AM Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's > Hi I'm a newbie with php/mysql, so I appologise if this has been asked > before, but I'm having big trouble trying to get a php script to retrieve > url's from a MySQL DB as my ISP won't allow images to be stored as BLOB data > on there MySQL server. > > So I'm trying to get a script to retrieve a URL to the image path by using > the id of the URL in my DB, this get's around my ISP's limitations on the > use of there MySQL server and stops people leeching etc, so I can generate a > link from the DB, if anyone can give me a point in the right direction that > would be great, as it's driving me mad. > > Thanks for any help ;) > > Trev Pearson. > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Tue Jul 23 09:12:01 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. Message-ID: <006501c23252$e8204050$b769fea9@max1> Hi all, I've got the code below which lists all the files in a directory. What I don't know how to do is if the directory is empty, to simply say no files were found. I'm puzzled (doesn't take much :) ). <% set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") set fname=fs.GetFolder(server.mappath("temp\")) for each x in fname.files response.write x.name & "
" next set fname=nothing set fs=nothing %> Any help gladly appreciated. Regards, Craig. From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 09:20:01 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:20:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. In-Reply-To: <006501c23252$e8204050$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: Craig- You could check the .count property of the files collection: <% set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") set fname=fs.GetFolder(server.mappath("temp\")) if fname.files.count > 0 then ' files exist ' list em, or do whatever else ' no files in this folder response.write "No files found." end if set fname=nothing set fs=nothing %> You might also want to do some error checking to make sure the path exists... like: <% set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") fpath = server.mappath("tempasda\") if fs.FileExists(fpath) then set fname=fs.GetFolder(fpath) if fname.files.count > 0 then ' files exist ' list em, or do whatever else ' no files in this folder response.write "No files found." end if else response.write "Invalid path." end if set fname=nothing set fs=nothing %> HTH! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Hi all, > > I've got the code below which lists all the files in a directory. What I > don't know how to do is if the directory is empty, to simply say no files > were found. I'm puzzled (doesn't take much :) ). > > <% > set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") > set fname=fs.GetFolder(server.mappath("temp\")) > for each x in fname.files > response.write x.name & "
" > next > set fname=nothing > set fs=nothing > %> > > Any help gladly appreciated. > > Regards, > Craig. From mike at ahnfire.com Tue Jul 23 09:25:00 2002 From: mike at ahnfire.com (Michael K. Ahn) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:25:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. Message-ID: I forgot... do you get "." and ".." using FSO? You'll have to ignore those. Michael -----Original Message----- From: Chris Blessing [mailto:webguy at mail.rit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:24 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. Craig- You could check the .count property of the files collection: <% set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") set fname=fs.GetFolder(server.mappath("temp\")) if fname.files.count > 0 then ' files exist ' list em, or do whatever else ' no files in this folder response.write "No files found." end if set fname=nothing set fs=nothing %> You might also want to do some error checking to make sure the path exists... like: <% set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") fpath = server.mappath("tempasda\") if fs.FileExists(fpath) then set fname=fs.GetFolder(fpath) if fname.files.count > 0 then ' files exist ' list em, or do whatever else ' no files in this folder response.write "No files found." end if else response.write "Invalid path." end if set fname=nothing set fs=nothing %> HTH! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Hi all, > > I've got the code below which lists all the files in a directory. What I > don't know how to do is if the directory is empty, to simply say no files > were found. I'm puzzled (doesn't take much :) ). > > <% > set fs=Server.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") > set fname=fs.GetFolder(server.mappath("temp\")) > for each x in fname.files > response.write x.name & "
" > next > set fname=nothing > set fs=nothing > %> > > Any help gladly appreciated. > > Regards, > Craig. -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jul 23 09:26:00 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:26:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. In-Reply-To: <006501c23252$e8204050$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: > I've got the code below which lists all the > files in a directory. What I don't know how > to do is if the directory is empty, to simply > say no files were found. I'm puzzled (doesn't > take much :) ). <% if not fname.files then 'empty! end if '--------------------- 'this would also work: '--------------------- if fname.files = "" then 'empty! end if %> Either one of those should work for you... some of the other ASP folks on here might be able to tell you which is better, though... HTH! --ken From tgmcmillen at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 23 09:28:00 2002 From: tgmcmillen at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Tom=20McMillen?=) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:28:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] nosend=1 Message-ID: <20020723142717.77951.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know what this means and where it comes from... seems to be in img tags, but why? ta t __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From agau at Softchoice.com Tue Jul 23 09:30:04 2002 From: agau at Softchoice.com (Andre Gaulin) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:30:04 2002 Subject: [thelist] Web Traffic Analysis Message-ID: <9775B40AA87F7543A8538BAF206E0F352511C3@TORMAIL01.softchoice.com> Hi Everyone... Hopefully some kind person out there can be of some assistance. I am looking into web traffic analysis options. For the last six months I have been using an out of box log analysis suite which has been extremely flaky and more or less a pain in the butt. I have been looking into a hosted service like hitbox (http://www.hitbox.com) or Webtrends Live (http://www.netiq.com/products/wtl/default.asp). Does anyone have any experience with either of these services? I am looking to track pretty standard stuff on a month by month basis for my marketing group (campaigns, promotions, etc.). Any suggestions, advice, or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Andre From ccosta at servidores.net Tue Jul 23 09:33:02 2002 From: ccosta at servidores.net (Carlos Costa Portela) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:33:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Web Traffic Analysis In-Reply-To: <9775B40AA87F7543A8538BAF206E0F352511C3@TORMAIL01.softchoice.com> Message-ID: Have you tried webalizer? (http://www.mrunix.net/webalizer). Good luck, Carlos. On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Andre Gaulin wrote: > > Hi Everyone... > > Hopefully some kind person out there can be of some assistance. I am > looking into web traffic analysis options. For the last six months I > have been using an out of box log analysis suite which has been > extremely flaky and more or less a pain in the butt. I have been > looking into a hosted service like hitbox (http://www.hitbox.com) or > Webtrends Live (http://www.netiq.com/products/wtl/default.asp). Does > anyone have any experience with either of these services? I am looking > to track pretty standard stuff on a month by month basis for my > marketing group (campaigns, promotions, etc.). Any suggestions, advice, > or insight would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > Andre > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > _______Carlos Costa Portela_________________________________________________ | e-mail: ccosta at servidores.net | home page: http://casa.ccp.servidores.net | |_____T?dalas persoas maiores foron nenos antes, pero poucas se lembran______| From JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com Tue Jul 23 09:33:07 2002 From: JGreen at desmoinesmetro.com (Janet Green) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:33:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Web Traffic Analysis Message-ID: <7245DCF24646B944B6BE516574FA54FE31F0F9@gdmp03.desmoinesmetro.com> >>> I have been looking into a hosted service like hitbox (http://www.hitbox.com) or Webtrends Live (http://www.netiq.com/products/wtl/default.asp). Does anyone have any experience with either of these services? <<< I use Webtrends, so could tell you about experiences with the program, but I don't use the hosting service. Let me know if you'd like more info. Janet From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Tue Jul 23 09:36:01 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:36:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. References: <006501c23252$e8204050$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: <007701c23256$44999f90$b769fea9@max1> Thanks for replying, and so quickly too. Chris's fname.files.count > 0 code worked, thanks Chris. Thanks again those who replied, Craig. From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 09:39:01 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe you can use relative pathing within the server.mappath() function but I cannot recall 100% since I haven't tried it myself. :) Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > I forgot... do you get "." and ".." using FSO? You'll have to ignore > those. > > Michael From josh at eaccessit.com Tue Jul 23 09:57:01 2002 From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh Spiegel) Date: Tue Jul 23 09:57:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c23259$6869d680$6801a8c0@AccessIT4> >>Is this something that you're going to distribute and therefore needs to >>be easily installed/configured? No, my company will be the only one to use the software. From josh at eaccessit.com Tue Jul 23 10:03:01 2002 From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh Spiegel) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:03:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3F010C447D@BOOTROS> Message-ID: <000101c2325a$4e5bf510$6801a8c0@AccessIT4> >>- Write a service that runs permanently, with a timer control that runs >>your code every hour Well, I do need to do a fair amount of accessing the "outside world" (ADO, ODBC, WebBrowser) and I don't know C++ or C # so I guess this is out. >>- Write a normal .exe with no forms, just a sub main, and get it to run >>every hour from Task Scheduler Hmmm. This sounds like a somewhat simple solution. Why can't I have forms? The reason I ask is because my program uses the WebBrowser control. I don't think its possible to use it without a form but then again I am really a newbie to VB. From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 10:08:00 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:08:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: <000101c2325a$4e5bf510$6801a8c0@AccessIT4> Message-ID: You can have forms, just make the primary form (Project > Properties > Startup Object) hidden (set visible = false under the properties for that form). The idea is that you want the program to run in the "background" correct? So there's no interaction? Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Hmmm. This sounds like a somewhat simple solution. Why can't I have > forms? The reason I ask is because my program uses the WebBrowser > control. I don't think its possible to use it without a form but then > again I am really a newbie to VB. From josh at eaccessit.com Tue Jul 23 10:11:00 2002 From: josh at eaccessit.com (Josh Spiegel) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:11:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c2325b$6947c880$6801a8c0@AccessIT4> Thanks Chris, you have been very helpful. >>You can have forms, just make the primary form (Project > Properties > >>Startup Object) hidden (set visible = false under the properties for that >>form). The idea is that you want the program to run in the "background" >>correct? So there's no interaction? Josh Spiegel josh at eaccessit.com From jim-lists.evolt.org at jimdabell.com Tue Jul 23 10:17:01 2002 From: jim-lists.evolt.org at jimdabell.com (Jim Dabell) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:17:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] nosend=1 In-Reply-To: <20020723142717.77951.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020723142717.77951.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200207231550.42401.jim-lists.evolt.org@jimdabell.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 23 July 2002 3:27 pm, Tom McMillen wrote: > Does anyone know what this means and where it comes > from... > > seems to be in img tags, but why? As far as I can tell, it's an outlook feature to make spam bugs easier. http://p2p.wrox.com/archive/html_code_clinic/2001-05/35.asp - -- Jim -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9PW0+3tJNldoQhi8RAp5CAKC6KX1imyO43y9NHX9UMp61tpM5tACgk2eq kRXU2iRjIrp5JZ2INU04YjU= =uv+k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jjk3 at msstate.edu Tue Jul 23 10:25:01 2002 From: jjk3 at msstate.edu (Joel Konkle-Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] [OT] PGP Message-ID: <1027437875.3d3d753346866@webmail.msstate.edu> Does anyone know of a PGP-like email protection system that integrates with the Moz email client? -joel ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ballsome.com From danfascia at totalise.co.uk Tue Jul 23 10:32:01 2002 From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:32:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] WAP question Message-ID: Does anyone know how to tease a webserver into sending GIF files in WAP pages? I have just got a sonyericcson t68i and have noticed some colour wapsites such as wap.esato.com, they appear to just use a normal but this doesnt work on my own site so Im guessing its a MIME type problem. Any ideas guys? From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Tue Jul 23 10:39:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] [OT] PGP Message-ID: Joel, Enigmail. http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ -- Jonathan McPherson, LMIT/SD&I Software Engineer & Web Systems Analyst email / jonathan_a_mcpherson at rl dot gov -----Original Message----- From: Joel Konkle-Parker [mailto:jjk3 at msstate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:25 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] [OT] PGP Does anyone know of a PGP-like email protection system that integrates with the Moz email client? -joel From dbindel at austin.rr.com Tue Jul 23 10:46:00 2002 From: dbindel at austin.rr.com (David Bindel) Date: Tue Jul 23 10:46:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] [OT] PGP In-Reply-To: <1027437875.3d3d753346866@webmail.msstate.edu> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > Does anyone know of a PGP-like email protection system that > integrates with the > Moz email client? > > -joel I just did a Google search for "pgp for mozilla" and it came up with a MozDev.org project called Enigmail. Check it out at http://enigmail.mozdev.org/. It's probably not production quality yet, but you might give it a try. David Bindel - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPT16DLwc2umqeOxSEQKahACgqq1SH+Q+YF0JdoyIOJWP95xFWVgAoOjt p1BhRxh+fkv5Jqa2aIVGZ+7o =swH1 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPT16Fbwc2umqeOxSEQJN0QCZAUjc/ysBiOmw8lHDAySQGBG6518AoJ76 +vn9a06lOdMw21zscaftW8ib =ckJC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jul 23 11:03:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:03:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" Message-ID: I just said the subject line really loudly, but without the acronym... :) My header graphic loads in every browser except Mozilla 1.0... AFAIK, it's just a standard .jpg file exported from Photoshop. I right-clicked on the image, and chose "view image" from the menu only to have this error show up: The image "http://www.yoursite.com/etc/header.jpg" cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." That's not particularly helpful. Anyone know what the heck is going on here? (site url masked since this is intranet stuff...) :( TIA! --ken From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jul 23 11:19:01 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE0782B2@ati-ex-01.ati.local> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Hershel Robinson > > Sent: 23 July 2002 13:45 > > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > > Subject: [thelist] My first Robot > > > > The client thinks he wants a > > Windows platform > > and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a > > month > > The client is, unfortunately, mistaken. Throw that much > crap through a Windows box and the hard disk'll be swiss > cheese inside 3 months from fragmentation. > > And defragging a production server basically means taking > it offline for about 6 hours. > > /me learned this one the hard way. have you heard about diskeeper hershel? supposedly it can defragment in the background as a service while the server is working preventing the need of taking the server offline. http://www.execsoft.com/diskeeper/diskeeper.asp?ad=w2kol2 (if anyone has experience with this, please share.) chris. From joel at spinhead.com Tue Jul 23 11:26:01 2002 From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:26:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > have you heard about diskeeper hershel? supposedly it can > defragment in the background as a service while the server is > working preventing the need of taking the server offline. > > http://www.execsoft.com/diskeeper/diskeeper.asp?ad=w2kol2 > > (if anyone has experience with this, please share.) We've used Diskeeper for years. It's on every server and many workstations inhouse. I have not seen one issue with it. Not expensive. We check the servers once a month anyway, and they're always completely defragged. We see obvious performance improvement on our 'problem' workstations once we install it and configure for regular defrags. Our network is 100% Windows 2000 clients; servers are a mix of NT4 (3) and Win2K (8). joel From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Tue Jul 23 11:27:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:27:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" Message-ID: Ken, Maybe one of the Mozilla developers found this site: http://www.burnalljpegs.org/ Apparently there's a company claiming to own a patent on one of the technologies behind JPEG image compression. The JPEG group (yes, I know, redundant phrase) is fighting it. Seriously, though, it could be that Mozilla's JPEG decoder doesn't support a feature you used whn exporting. What options did you have set on the image in Photoshop's export tool? Progressive? Optimized? Try playing with the export options. What MIME type is your Web server returning for the image? Did it work in previous releases of Mozilla? -- Jonathan McPherson, LMIT/SD&I Software Engineer & Web Systems Analyst email / jonathan_a_mcpherson at rl dot gov -----Original Message----- From: Ken Kogler [mailto:ken.kogler at cph.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:03 AM To: thelist Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" I just said the subject line really loudly, but without the acronym... :) My header graphic loads in every browser except Mozilla 1.0... AFAIK, it's just a standard .jpg file exported from Photoshop. I right-clicked on the image, and chose "view image" from the menu only to have this error show up: The image "http://www.yoursite.com/etc/header.jpg" cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." That's not particularly helpful. Anyone know what the heck is going on here? (site url masked since this is intranet stuff...) :( TIA! --ken From hershelr at netvision.net.il Tue Jul 23 11:27:07 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:27:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot References: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> Message-ID: <02b501c2326e$fe2da1f0$0101c80a@hershel> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hershel Robinson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: [thelist] My first Robot > I have accepted recently to build a web robot which will search for certain > data on certain specific websites. The client estimates that the maximal > search will consist of on the order of 1800 searches apiece on 13 different > websites. The web sites are databases and are intended to be searched by > actual web surfers. My concern, however, is that most human surfers do not > perform 1800 searches each separated by a few milliseconds. :) > > I asked the client about asking the 13 sites if they would mind but he is > uncertain because if they do mind then what do we do? > > He had an idea to rotate through the 13 sites, performing 5 or 10 searches > on each at a time. This would spread out the searches a bit. I still don't > think this will look like a human user however. > > Our latest idea is to break the search into pieces and do a section at a > time, separating the sections by a significant length of time, like at least > an hour. > > Question 1: > Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do I need to be concerned that the > sites will notice that they are being searched by a robot? Will they mind? > They are not the sort of sites that would be popular among robots I don't > think--they are somewhat industry-specific. > > Question 2: > Does anyone know of a *reliable* host who actually has *good* customer > support to host such a site? The client thinks he wants a Windows platform > and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a month, but the > bulk of that will be download not upload. > > > When dealing with a new client in a freelance relationship, always ask for > some form of payment up front. It doesn't have to be before you actually > begin to work and it doesn't have to be a huge amount, but it is important > to get something paid early on. This insures the seriousness of and fiscal > health of your new client before you waste a month (or two) of work. > > > Thanks, > Hershel > > PS: For those of you who remember my question a week or two ago about how to > estimate a job, this is that big fish I wrote about and I hooked him for an > excellent price, thanks to advice from evolters! > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From hershelr at netvision.net.il Tue Jul 23 11:29:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:29:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot References: <009c01c23246$b8166490$0101c80a@hershel> Message-ID: <02c101c2326f$50bfa210$0101c80a@hershel> > Question 2: > Does anyone know of a *reliable* host who actually has *good* customer > support to host such a site? The client thinks he wants a Windows platform > and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a month, but the > bulk of that will be download not upload. What I meant to write was: It appears that this question was not understood clearly. I am not planning to administer the server. I am planning to buy a space ON a commercial server. I was asking for recommendations for a commercial host who fits the above bill. Hershel PS: Sorry about that last post--it's almost nighttime in this part of the world and it's been a long day. From michael at tapinternet.com Tue Jul 23 11:32:01 2002 From: michael at tapinternet.com (Michael Kimsal) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:32:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" References: Message-ID: <3D3D80E5.10906@tapinternet.com> Ken Kogler wrote: > I just said the subject line really loudly, but without the acronym... :) > > My header graphic loads in every browser except Mozilla 1.0... AFAIK, it's > just a standard .jpg file exported from Photoshop. I right-clicked on the > image, and chose "view image" from the menu only to have this error show up: > > The image "http://www.yoursite.com/etc/header.jpg" cannot be displayed, > because it contains errors." > > That's not particularly helpful. Anyone know what the heck is going on here? > It's working for me in Mozilla. Ummm... might be 1.1, not 1.0, but it's working. From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jul 23 11:34:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:34:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Seriously, though, it could be that Mozilla's > JPEG decoder doesn't support a feature you used > when exporting. What options did you have set on > the image in Photoshop's export tool? Progressive? > Optimized? Try playing with the export options. Good thought. Checking now... > What MIME type is your Web server returning for the image? image/jpeg > Did it work in previous releases of Mozilla? Yeah. Sure did. Works on 0.9 like a charm. Haven't tried the 1.1 beta yet, but I've been too busy alternating between scratching my head and hitting it on the wall... :) From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jul 23 11:38:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:38:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: > I asked the client about asking the 13 sites if they would mind but he is > uncertain because if they do mind then what do we do? Just be sure to follow the robots exclusion protocol: http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/exclusion.html Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com Tue Jul 23 11:54:00 2002 From: NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com (NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:54:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] If you put the robot meta tag mentioned on robotstxt.org on all the pages of your website, 1. would the site continue to get found by search engines and 2. would it stop email addresses listed on your site from getting spammed? Naturally, I am looking for a YES answer to these questions. TIA, Nan > > I asked the client about asking the 13 sites if they would mind but he is > > uncertain because if they do mind then what do we do? > > Just be sure to follow the robots exclusion protocol: > > http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/exclusion.html Nan Harbison Smith www.heritageconcord.org nan at heritageconcord.org From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 11:57:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:57:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: john & hershel, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: John Handelaar > > > The client thinks he wants a Windows platform and we > > estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a > > month > > The client is, unfortunately, mistaken. Throw that > much crap through a Windows box and the hard disk'll > be swiss cheese inside 3 months from fragmentation. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that is complete and utter garbage. i work on a number of win2k servers and they push out *way* more than 5gig a month of traffic and the sort of hardware issues you cite are non-existant. as an example, one of the sites i work with posted data transfer numbers between 20 and 30 gigs a month during its peak season and continues to be just fine. hershel, don't sweat this sort of anti-windows fear-mongering. a windows based server should be able to handle the load most any mortal site could need, so long as the box is setup and tuned appropriately. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jwalton at four09.org Tue Jul 23 11:58:01 2002 From: jwalton at four09.org (john-paul) Date: Tue Jul 23 11:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software Message-ID: I am looking for a good shopping cart package. The only one I have found so far is ShopSite (http://www.shopsite.com). Has anybody used this? What is your take on it? What other cart/catalog software is worth looking at? The more flexible/customizable, the better... :: john-paul :: music :: http://www.mmodule.com :: collective :: http://www.four09.org From amccoy at goodmanct.com Tue Jul 23 12:05:01 2002 From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3366320AE@admin.admin.goodmanct.com> ::What other cart/catalog software is worth looking at? The more ::flexible/customizable, the better... Depends...Windows or Linux? ASP or PHP? SQL Server or MySQL? Alan From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 12:30:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:30:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags Message-ID: <20020723172929.84486.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Hey all, In IE the alt tag shows up as a title. Is this standard across browsers? I want to say somebody said something about the right click. What if you would need to use like 30-40 characters in your alt text - but the title box that pops up obscures something else? For non-impaired users, that is quite annoying. Tom ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From magic32 at jps.net Tue Jul 23 12:39:02 2002 From: magic32 at jps.net (Roger Harness) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:39:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <20020723170908.4A5B53A39@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: List folks...i've been wondering about this for a while, and have always been too embarassed/worried to ask. But it's getting to a point where I think I *need* to ask. I'm a 'struggling' web designer/developer/programmer. I know quite a bit about HTML, and a little about everything else. (in some cases, VERY little). I'm working retail to pay the bills, and honestly, I only have a few actual *paying* web jobs. (and that's even sorta debatable). I think I'm older then the majority of most folks on here who are still basically starting out. (closing in on my mid-thirties). Did that read correctly? I mean that most folks my age are probably past my current situation of not really making any money from their web practices yet. Guess there's actually two parts to my question: 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working for other companies etc? 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on projects? Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring to either my books, or at least previous work. And while I DO seem to be getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't put a working web-based database together from the top of my head, if my life depended on it. Ya know? Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, but this thing has been nagging at me for a while. Usually everytime I look at the job market and see all the skills required. If they pulled me in for an interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd just totally embarass myself. Anyways, thanks for time, and again, sorry for taking up so much of it. tia, -Roger Harness --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/02 From evolt at pixelwright.com Tue Jul 23 12:41:01 2002 From: evolt at pixelwright.com (James Aylard) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags References: <20020723172929.84486.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c23270$1f76cac0$2860398a@newcos.com> Tom, > In IE the alt tag shows up as a title. Is this standard across > browsers? I want to say somebody said something about the right No, it's not standard, but it's not uncommon, either. Mozilla/Netscape 6/7 do not do this, while Netscape 4.x does, for instance. > click. What if you would need to use like 30-40 characters in your > alt text - but the title box that pops up obscures something else? > For non-impaired users, that is quite annoying. Use alt text where it is appropriate. Use an empty alt attribute (e.g., alt="") where no alt text is needed. And in IE, you can use the title attribute to "override" the pop-up effect of alt text, e.g.: Some worthwhile description James Aylard From fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 12:43:01 2002 From: fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk (fstorr) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:43:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Php 4.2.2 IIS 5 and passing variables Message-ID: <000701c2326e$e529fa00$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Hi all Another php newbie question. I'm running php locally on XP Professional on IIS 5. I had version 4.0.2 working fine but installed 4.2.2 this morning. After uncommenting and changing the cgi.force_redirect 0|1 Line to: cgi.force_redirect 0 it will serve php. However, I can't get it to pass variables across pages. I get the following error message: PHP Notice: Undefined variable: applicant in c:\inetpub\wwwroot\fsphp\jobapp_action.php on line 12 This is for one variable - I get the same message for every variable in the page. I've tried changing from from post to get to check to see that everything is still being passed by the form, and it is. The pages work on a live remote server, so I'm gusessign it's an IIS thing. As I said, this was running fine before - I must have missed something - anyone any idea what? Regards Francis From john at evolt.org.uk Tue Jul 23 12:44:00 2002 From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:44:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of .jeff > Sent: 23 July 2002 17:59 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thelist] My first Robot > > john & hershel, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: John Handelaar > > > > > The client thinks he wants a Windows platform and we > > > estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a > > > month > > > > The client is, unfortunately, mistaken. Throw that > > much crap through a Windows box and the hard disk'll > > be swiss cheese inside 3 months from fragmentation. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > that is complete and utter garbage. My, but we're being constructive today. > i work on a number of win2k > servers and they push out *way* more than 5gig a month of traffic Hershel actually said he was bringing 5Gb *in*, and replacing all of it regularly. Which is a fantastic way to frag-up a hard disk, as you really ought to know. Diskeeper is indeed an option, but it ain't cheap. > hershel, don't sweat this sort of anti-windows fear-mongering. No, it's practical experience of running NT-based servers for the last 6 years. Getting religious about it helps nobody. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 8933 1494 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 10/07/2002 From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jul 23 12:44:05 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:44:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] BROWSERS: quirks mode and standards mode Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033056@ati-ex-01.ati.local> hi. i'm not sure where to start, so i'll just dive right in. i'm building a website right now for work and until recently i had been using the quirks mode[0] doctype, using IE 6 for 95% of the development. periodically though, looking at the site in nn4.7, moz 1.0, nn6.2, and opera 6.03 and trying to make any corrections i can. in quirks mode[0] moz, nn6.2, opera6.03[1], and ie6 load the page fine. (nn4.7 looks like crap.) in standards mode[0] nn6.2, opera, nn4.7(understandably) and ie6 look exactly the same as they did before. moz, however looks a lot different. in cells where there should be nothing and they should be collapsed[2], there is now a large space as if a   is occupying the cell. my problem is with mozilla in standards mode[0]. i'd like to use standards mode[3] but i'm not sure if it's worth modifying the code i've written so far just to get all the spaces to go away. i'm also not sure what to do about it, hence my writing to theList. please kind sir's(and mam's) if you would take the time to divulge any information you've got regarding anything in this email i'd appreciate it greatly. i'd also like to hear opinions on what people think is more worthwhile. going with standards mode and trying to get it to work, or continue in quirks mode and try to reach the broadest audience as possible with as nice a looking website as possible. thanks for the input, chris. [0] from what i've read, quirks mode is achieved by using as your doctype instead of the full correct doctype which is and puts the browser into standards mode. [1] opera does some funky left aligning of a menu which i have yet to investigate. [2] not being an expert with what the w3c says about this and how mozilla follows their recommendation, i'm assuming that when a cell is defined as in your html it should not look on screen as if it is defined as . let me know what the truth about that is though. [3] why do i want to use standards mode? well i guess i don't have a good reason (or any reason at all) other than i'd like to more closely follow the standards. From jwalton at four09.org Tue Jul 23 12:45:16 2002 From: jwalton at four09.org (john-paul) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:45:16 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software In-Reply-To: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3366320AE@admin.admin.goodmanct.com> Message-ID: > Depends...Windows or Linux? ASP or PHP? SQL Server or MySQL? any of the above, really... i suppose i prefer linux/php/mySQL :: john-paul :: music :: http://www.mmodule.com :: collective :: http://www.four09.org From simplecypher at bitshift.ws Tue Jul 23 12:49:00 2002 From: simplecypher at bitshift.ws (:: kevination ::) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:49:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Php 4.2.2 IIS 5 and passing variables References: <000701c2326e$e529fa00$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Message-ID: <000601c23271$b63476a0$3001330a@marchfirstslc.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "fstorr" > it will serve php. However, I can't get it to pass variables across > pages. I get the following error message: > > PHP Notice: Undefined variable: applicant in > c:\inetpub\wwwroot\fsphp\jobapp_action.php on line 12 - ----- Original Message ----- Newer versions of PHP set register_globals to "Off" by default. This means PHP will no longer automatically transfer all POST and GET name-value pairs into local script variables. The prefered method now is to reference $_POST["foo"] and $_GET["foo"]. You can override this default behavior by editing your php.ini file and changing "register_globals = Off" to "register_globals = On". _____________ : : kevin D. white : im simplecypher : email simplecypher at bitshift.ws :_____________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6-2 (MingW32) - GPGOE 0.4.1 Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQIcBAEBAgAGBQI9PZfZAAoJEO4zpFgPJZel9OgP+wUGpKAb4gGtobr8hQfZBygB udszwAI5a1EiXW/xbBm8l1qxdiR94l5UUpGOiOikks0cdqtWFcm1nzmuXcuvnLom DtiWNLu5iPpHg2taB/Z4gULiVdSCM7j4gCc2xycundI+zl27xHxrP7b8Rbivr5Tj CUSvdqGjJFbjb+6iPV3v1lrvM5iWIwjUGvdZpscf71ZbQgesWohVvxpLqx0Q1HHO 2pnyRjxRC3aRPeLX4V7RhpGrS2Pln0IBx0Rxdfv3Ah44783sLfQ+KrXI7hwO9QUB 1X2gGrYQ9YBiVpMqHCax2j+ewd5HJiSxBrXHT6YLIkgmB7WSYT+E+yi9rC9tbDlr Zdaa33ZIAq0ZCf0KousRSIeaQz3B+4Ch7IY8alLZlHji6Jz2nmS8IIRsS2J7pqqI MaIgTPc9iM9SGxIpAfrPXaKllq5qoUhoEqKzja8R97iTFrjxnt1Bccv9jxZ11G4H FZHhLAgU3ADKGK/dur+nklmIcneTm7m616L1KRuBlatm8DS8zJtdVJO633B2Cple xNtXB58A4deJl2wzoVvLix76b7IEnhvIlPkmfzDMxJ7BzsQSpwt0FDDXNfffTskv JveFY7c7OLk6MJJCS5jZiKYoKUnM5LY20isuaRwrGJFXCLb0F1uGva+MzfKG+VE/ kmHTPbNWeupEBv68TcPq =cUpe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 12:53:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:53:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] vector world map Message-ID: <200207231752.g6NHqPNf031878@leo.evolt.org> i know i've seen links posted before, but can't find anything in my archives or thelist archives... so, anyone know a place i can grab vector world maps? i don't need the countries, just outlines of the continents... anyone? -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk Tue Jul 23 12:54:00 2002 From: jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk (Jon Haworth) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:54:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's Message-ID: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3F010C4484@BOOTROS> Hi Trev, > So I'm trying to get a script to retrieve a URL to the image path > by using the id of the URL in my DB, Yep, good solution - probably better than cluttering your table with BLOBs anyway. How about a table like this: CREATE TABLE 'images' ( 'id' INT UNSIGNED NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT PRIMARY KEY, 'filename' VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL, 'alt' VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL, 'width' INT NOT NULL, 'height' INT NOT NULL ); Then you can generate your links like this: alt=" width=" height=" /> Storing only the filename in the db and having the folder in the $path variable means that you can easily move this around, or re-use it for other sites, with a minimum of changes. Give us a shout if that wasn't what you were after :-) Cheers Jon From jim at jimdabell.com Tue Jul 23 12:54:05 2002 From: jim at jimdabell.com (Jim Dabell) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:54:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200207231458.00871.jim@jimdabell.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 23 July 2002 1:23 am, Rebecca Milot-Bradford wrote: > I find myself spending more and more time just maintaining our company > site, with less and less time available for developing new "stuff." This > is frustrating for me, because, well, maintaining is not nearly as > interesting as building new. This is frustrating for my co-workers > because they don't understand why I can't just keep building and > building. It is frustrating for management because they don't understand > why I am insisting that I need a slice of the budget pie. So here are my > questions for all of you: You have my sympathy. It wasn't long ago, I was working in a similar situation, however since everything was a rush job, nothing got designed properly to begin with, and we always had to go back and spend time fixing things. Needless to say, that ate into our new projects timeframes, which led to a vicious circle. Of course, since there was no time to try out new ideas, we just got stuck in the same old stuff, over and over. This was a web development shop, where design specs, validation and stylesheets were the new concepts I was trying to push, right up until I left, earlier this year :( > 1) Are there any figures out there showing how much it costs to maintain > a page? (I've searched Google and come up with nothing.) Or any > suggestions about how to figure out what it costs us? In the eyes of > people here, it costs nothing, since they are paying my salary > regardless. I can't recall anything specifically about web development, however I believe there are quite a few studies in the traditional software engineering field that you might be able to use (for instance, code re-use benefits). > 2) Does anyone have ideas about how to convince management that we need > more manpower if we want to keep expanding the site? Point out how far behind you would get if a team member developed a serious illness. You'd have to find a replacement, train him up, and he'd still not be as effective as your original member. You'd be behind schedule, with less than 100% performance available. In short, push it as a business risk that needs addressing. > Sorry for sounding whiney! You don't, I'm sure most people here have been in the same situation :) - -- Jim -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9PWDm3tJNldoQhi8RAogIAJ0QAaclr7h67mac61xZwNjB5YaSLgCgsSgi kmmsYTvxemjCy0bKj2LkMfc= =QN+5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From agovella at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 12:54:11 2002 From: agovella at yahoo.com (austin govella) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:54:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020723150526.36443.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Get them copies of DreamWeaver (or FrontPage if you prefer), teach yout coworkers how to make basic text edits. Otherwise, I've set aside a day, maybe two just for maintenance, leaving the rest of the week for new development. Also, if you're doing a lot of tedious maintenance, it might be advantageous to throw some stuff into databases. -- Austin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From bvaradi at nlcnet.org Tue Jul 23 12:54:18 2002 From: bvaradi at nlcnet.org (Benjamin C. Varadi) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:54:18 2002 Subject: [thelist] Mac graphics software? Message-ID: <3D3D9492.73C0AE3A@nlcnet.org> Are there any recommended free/functional demo products out there for download comparable to Photoshop/Imageready or Jasc's Paint Shop Pro? I want to catch up on some work from home (creating basic menu graphics, stuff like that), but the only machine currently running in my apartment is a Revision B iMac w/ 96 MB RAM, and I'm not inclined to spend huge amounts of money on it, particularly for this short term project (although in an OT aside, sonnettech's got a G3 600mhz upgrade w/ firewire that's plenty tempting). The Fireworks demo requires OS 9.1: This machine (purchased yesterday) is still running 8.6. Other options? TIA, -BEN -- Benjamin C. Varadi Webmaster, National Labor Committee 275 7th Ave, 15th Floor. NYC 10001 pager: bengoesbeep at vesana.com phone: (212) 242-3002 x387 www.nlcnet.org From mike at ahnfire.com Tue Jul 23 12:55:00 2002 From: mike at ahnfire.com (Michael K. Ahn) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:55:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: Yes we know EVERYTHING! Just kidding!!! I'm making my living as a full time programming consultant(independent). I've actually been working on this fairly long on-going project. No programmer can know all the syntax off the top of his/her head. Especially in relation to internet related programming (http, html, xml, java, perl, etc etc.) Every programmer probably keeps a relatively extensive collection of tomes and manuals. It's like many other professional jobs, like the reference books for doctors, lawyers, alchemy... ;) However, any good programmer should know the basic concepts of how to program, and know it well. Ie. Basics of OOD, algorithms, etc and be able to apply it to many different situations. Basically... the ability to understand a problem, break it down into it's constituent parts, so that a computer which only understands 1's and 0's can properly process it. Hope that answers some of your questions. As for my background. I'm almost 29, graduated with a degree in CS and have been programming since (mostly in companies that had something to do with the web). Michael -----Original Message----- From: Roger Harness [mailto:magic32 at jps.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 1:42 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? List folks...i've been wondering about this for a while, and have always been too embarassed/worried to ask. But it's getting to a point where I think I *need* to ask. I'm a 'struggling' web designer/developer/programmer. I know quite a bit about HTML, and a little about everything else. (in some cases, VERY little). I'm working retail to pay the bills, and honestly, I only have a few actual *paying* web jobs. (and that's even sorta debatable). I think I'm older then the majority of most folks on here who are still basically starting out. (closing in on my mid-thirties). Did that read correctly? I mean that most folks my age are probably past my current situation of not really making any money from their web practices yet. Guess there's actually two parts to my question: 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working for other companies etc? 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on projects? Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring to either my books, or at least previous work. And while I DO seem to be getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't put a working web-based database together from the top of my head, if my life depended on it. Ya know? Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, but this thing has been nagging at me for a while. Usually everytime I look at the job market and see all the skills required. If they pulled me in for an interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd just totally embarass myself. Anyways, thanks for time, and again, sorry for taking up so much of it. tia, -Roger Harness --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/02 -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com Tue Jul 23 12:55:05 2002 From: jay.blanchard at niicommunications.com (Jay Blanchard) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:55:05 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c23272$142d0330$8102a8c0@niigziuo4ohhdt> [snip] 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent living ... [/snip] Yes. Sometimes it involves the wearing of many, many hats. Orgainzation, time management, and knowing where to look for answers are the most valuable tools. [and snip] 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job ... [/and snip] That's just silly. I would say that I know a couple of things really well, with the ability to hand code almost anything that could be asked in those areas. The rest is knowing where and what to look for. I have been a code-jockey for a very long time (I am in my mid-forties) and have found that the most needed tool in my arsenal is the ability to be flexible and to continue learning. I learn something new almost everyday, keep an extensive library of solutions (which I have migrated to a PHP/MySQL web-app for fast lookup :^] ). I doubt seriously I could code any FORTRAN by hand now, though I could many years ago. No one knows *everything*, that is why Evolt is such a valuable resource! If we all knew it all, the we all wouldn't come here ... 'cept for the beer. Oh, and it is a real job, warts and all. Jay From hershelr at netvision.net.il Tue Jul 23 12:58:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: <02fc01c2327b$c77476e0$0101c80a@hershel> > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent > living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working > for other companies etc? I indeed make a (modest) living working freelance from my home. I do happen to have one ongoing job which is actually how I pay the bills. It is, however, freelance (or contractor). > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job > (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with > their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? Can I write HTML, CSS, JavaScript and Perl without referring to manuals? Yes and no. For the most part, yes--the bulk of my code I do write without any reference. When I come upon something I don't know or I have forgotten, then, yes I do rely on cut and paste from old programs or I refer to manuals or books. There are programmers out there who have entire manuals in their heads. It's basically a matter of experience I believe. If a person is writing and debugging code in Perl between 20 and 30 hours (literally) a week for even 1 or 2 years, he's bound to learn how to write more Perl code without looking in the book. :) Hershel From john at evolt.org.uk Tue Jul 23 12:58:10 2002 From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar) Date: Tue Jul 23 12:58:10 2002 Subject: [thelist] vector world map In-Reply-To: <200207231752.g6NHqPNf031878@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of aardvark > Sent: 23 July 2002 18:52 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] vector world map > > i know i've seen links posted before, but can't find anything in my > archives or thelist archives... > > so, anyone know a place i can grab vector world maps? i don't > need the countries, just outlines of the continents... CIA's got some quite detailed stuff. You can always break-apart and remove the detail you don't need... ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 8933 1494 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 10/07/2002 From fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 23 13:00:01 2002 From: fffrancis at fstorr.demon.co.uk (fstorr) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Php 4.2.2 IIS 5 and passing variables In-Reply-To: <000601c23271$b63476a0$3001330a@marchfirstslc.com> Message-ID: <000901c23271$5a7a4150$4363989e@DHGQCD0J> Newer versions of PHP set register_globals to "Off" by default. This means PHP will no longer automatically transfer all POST and GET name-value pairs into local script variables. The prefered method now is to reference $_POST["foo"] and $_GET["foo"]. You can override this default behavior by editing your php.ini file and changing "register_globals = Off" to "register_globals = On". ____________________ Thanks - that solved it. Another reason to love this list! Cheers Francis From amccoy at goodmanct.com Tue Jul 23 13:08:00 2002 From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:08:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3366320B0@admin.admin.goodmanct.com> http://phpshop.com Excellent package...nuff said. Alan ::-----Original Message----- ::From: john-paul [mailto:jwalton at four09.org] ::Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:50 PM ::To: thelist at lists.evolt.org ::Subject: Re: [thelist] Shopping cart software :: :: ::> Depends...Windows or Linux? ASP or PHP? SQL Server or MySQL? :: ::any of the above, really... i suppose i prefer linux/php/mySQL :: :: :::: john-paul :::: music :: http://www.mmodule.com :::: collective :: http://www.four09.org :: ::-- ::For unsubscribe and other options, including ::the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: ::http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! :: From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jul 23 13:13:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:13:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot Message-ID: >If you put the robot meta tag mentioned on robotstxt.org on all the pages of >your website, > 1. would the site continue to get found by search engines and > 2. would it stop email addresses listed on your site from getting spammed? > >Naturally, I am looking for a YES answer to these questions. You won't get it. ;{>} 1) If you use the "noindex" value on the tag, the page will *not* be found by any search engines obeying the protocol. You're telling them not to index the page, so they won't. If you just use "nofollow", then the page will be found, but none of the pages it links to will be indexed. After all, you told it not to follow the links it found. 2) The REP is voluntary. Well-behaved robots obey the protocol; ill-behaved ones do not. Which robot belongs to the spammer? ;{>} Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From peterl at standingwave.org Tue Jul 23 13:14:00 2002 From: peterl at standingwave.org (Peter Loron) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:14:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Mac graphics software? References: <3D3D9492.73C0AE3A@nlcnet.org> Message-ID: <3D3D9CC1.5040900@standingwave.org> Give GraphicConverter a try: http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=1870&db=mac -Pete Benjamin C. Varadi wrote: > Are there any recommended free/functional demo products out there for > download comparable to Photoshop/Imageready or Jasc's Paint Shop Pro? I > want to catch up on some work from home (creating basic menu graphics, > stuff like that), but the only machine currently running in my apartment > is a Revision B iMac w/ 96 MB RAM, and I'm not inclined to spend huge > amounts of money on it, particularly for this short term project > (although in an OT aside, sonnettech's got a G3 600mhz upgrade w/ > firewire that's plenty tempting). > > The Fireworks demo requires OS 9.1: This machine (purchased yesterday) > is still running 8.6. Other options? > > TIA, > > -BEN > -- > Benjamin C. Varadi > Webmaster, National Labor Committee > 275 7th Ave, 15th Floor. NYC 10001 > pager: bengoesbeep at vesana.com > phone: (212) 242-3002 x387 > www.nlcnet.org From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 13:14:11 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:14:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: <20020723172929.84486.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200207231813.g6NIDgNf032483@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Tom Dell'Aringa" first off... they're *attributes*, not tags... sorry, but i had to say that... > In IE the alt tag shows up as a title. Is this standard across > browsers? I want to say somebody said something about the right > click. What if you would need to use like 30-40 characters in your alt > text - but the title box that pops up obscures something else? For > non-impaired users, that is quite annoying. in many versions of IE, alt attributes appear as tooltips (or balloon help)... this has widely been regarded as a bad idea... title attributes are now what are supposed to appear in tooltips, and alt attributes are to quietly wait until a browser with images disabled or without image capability comes along before they can strut their stuff... use 'title' for now, and leave the 'alt' as it should be... a blank title attribute will cause later versions of IE to show no tooltip, as they now defer to the title attribute over alt (if one is provided, even if it's blank)... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From rwd at csi1st.net Tue Jul 23 13:16:01 2002 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:16:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software References: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3366320B0@admin.admin.goodmanct.com> Message-ID: <3D3D9ED8.1090005@csi1st.net> McCoy, Alan wrote: >http://phpshop.com > >Excellent package...nuff said. > and zephware.com has some nice add-on modules for it as well. Ron D. From Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com Tue Jul 23 13:18:01 2002 From: Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com (Arlen.P.Walker at jci.com) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:18:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: And Mike writes: Yes we know EVERYTHING! To which I add: And further we also follow these Two Useful Rules: 1) Never tell anyone everything you know. Have fun, Arlen Chief Managing Director In Charge, Department of Redundancy Department DNRC 224 Arlen.P.Walker at JCI.Com ---------------------------------------------- In God we trust; all others must provide data. ---------------------------------------------- Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. If JCI had an opinion on this, they'd hire someone else to deliver it. From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 13:21:00 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:21:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] My first Robot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: john, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: John Handelaar > > Hershel actually said he was bringing 5Gb *in*, and > replacing all of it regularly. Which is a fantastic > way to frag-up a hard disk, as you really ought to know. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< from this quote: "The client thinks he wants a Windows platform and we estimate that the traffic will be up to 5 Gigabytes a month, but the bulk of that will be download not upload." i took it to mean that the 5g of traffic per month would be from downloads. i totally missed that "downloads" meant the server would be replacing old content with new content. my mistake. however, there's something to think about here and that's how the data will be stored. if it's databased, the "frag-up" of the hard disk would then be kept to a minimum as the database would handle it internally. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From webdad at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jul 23 13:21:06 2002 From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:21:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a list of freebies...Not sure if any fit the bill but feel free to check them out. You should know I haven't used these. They are a list that my hosting company gave me as examples of what people generally use with them. FREE CARTS: http://www.urlogy.com/asp/ashopkart.asp http://www.alanward.net/acart/ http://www.asp101.com/samples/shopping.asp http://metalinks.com/ CGI CART http://cart32.com ASP CART http://www.quadcomm.com FRONTPAGE CART http://www.cartit.com JAVA CART http://www.zilron.com http://www.ezimerchant.com Bob -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of john-paul Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:03 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Shopping cart software I am looking for a good shopping cart package. The only one I have found so far is ShopSite (http://www.shopsite.com). Has anybody used this? What is your take on it? What other cart/catalog software is worth looking at? The more flexible/customizable, the better... :: john-paul :: music :: http://www.mmodule.com :: collective :: http://www.four09.org -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/02 From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Tue Jul 23 13:49:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: Roger, > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent > living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working > for other companies etc? I do Web applications for a living, and while I'm not terribly wealthy, I am making a decent living at it. > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job > (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with > their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? I stay away from Web development books for the most part -- they are expensive, heavy, time-consuming to use, and often outdate themselves in months, if not sooner. I write the vast majority of my code without using reference works at all. I use ColdFusion, JavaScript, (X)HTML, and CSS, among other languages. I do, however, keep an extensive collection of online documentation that I can look up functions (etc) in quickly. Anything that you use frequently enough will become ingrained and automatic. You don't have to think to remember every digit of your address, or each turn on the route to your job. When you first start seeing some of the code some programmers can whip up off the top of their heads you, like me, probably stare in slack-jawed wonder. But remember: These people do this *for a living.* The expertise and knowledge they have is the result of hours upon hours of research and constant use. No one (well, _almost_ no one) memorizes languages "on purpose;" they simply become fluent in them as a result of the amount of time spent in them. I started programming when I was 10. I'm 21 now. That's 11 years of (on-and-off) experience. I've tutored new programmers in introductory programming courses and they lament that they'll never "get it." Of course they will, if they keep at it -- it just takes more than a few months; it did for me. Some people have the ability to pick up programming quickly. Most of us don't. If you love programming and designing, and you're willing to put in the time, you _will_ become better and more fluent. It'll happen slowly, and you'll barely notice it while it's happening, but it will happen. What's more, many programming concepts are general enough to be applied to a wide variety of languages and environments. Therefore, the more you learn, the easier it is to learn _more_. My first language took a long time to learn, the second, less so, and so forth. And rest assured that even the most seasoned programmers regularly use reference manuals -- I would have little respect for a programmer who didn't; anyone who runs entirely off memory is going to miss a lot of valuable data in the documentation that simply cannot be memorized. Okay, back to work with me. (-: -- Jonathan McPherson, LMIT/SD&I Software Engineer & Web Systems Analyst email / jonathan_a_mcpherson at rl dot gov From sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com Tue Jul 23 13:54:01 2002 From: sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com (Sharon F. Malone) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:54:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] XML - EXCLUDE statements - re-post References: <007901c231e0$7e949fe0$34e8b3d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <004b01c23279$d8a94a00$dfe9b3d1@oemcomputer> Hope you don't mind me re-posting this query. Just wondering if I need to write each tag separately (as pictured below) for each excluded directory ... or is their a "shorthand" way of doing this separating each dir by delimiters and including all in one tag? Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon F. Malone" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: [thelist] XML - EXCLUDE statements > Am putting together a P3P Policy for a client and haven't worked in XML before. I'd like to write multiple EXCLUDE statements and am wondering if I need to put an open and close tag for each directory I want to exclude, as follows: > > > /* > > /bubbleforms* > /cgi-bin* > /faq* > /files* > /zip* > > Or, can I write it another way? > > Best, > Sharon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon F. Malone "web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 13:57:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 13:57:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: References: <20020723170908.4A5B53A39@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200207231856.g6NIu9Nf000934@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Roger Harness" [...] > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a > decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be > free-lance, or working for other companies etc? yes... i started right out of college as a webmaster, then moved on to developing e-commerce sites, then spun off my own gig five years ago that's grown to about 17 people today... starting it was hell -- long hours (which i still do), little to no pay, lots of scraping -- but ultimately, it's a business, and expecting to just become a wealthy guy without the ramp up time would be silly... > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a > 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything > NOT to do with their web passions)...do you folks actually know in > your head most of the skills you need to perform? For example, > PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write working code > that without having to rely on your notes, code snippets, manuals, > etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL hardcore > designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? i can write working HTML and CSS without looking at the specs at all... i still validate it, however... i can write JS and ASP pretty well from memory, but rely on an extensive code library i've amassed... i can SQL queries that work, but that you'd never want in a production environment... i can do the same with PHP, perl, ActionScript, Lingo, and a dozen other languages... IOW, if i didn't use a code library all the time, i'd be doing myself a disservice... with HTML and CSS, i still use a code library since it's nice to have a standard block of code to go in every that you don't have to retype (saves lotsa time)... ultimately, you can never be expected to remember all these languages and all they do all at once... you'll pick up the ones you use the most pretty damn well, and the rest will be little forays here and there that build up your understanding and code library... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 14:05:01 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: hanjj@netease.com's AutoReply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> I've set your account to nomail. Hopefully that's what you were asking. > Date sent: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:53:29 EDT > From: hanjj at netease.com > > no mail From mark at mountain.ch Tue Jul 23 14:13:01 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:13:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent > living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working > for other companies etc? I gave up on trying to slog my guts out with freelance work about four years ago -- there just isn't enough work about in my specific field to pay the bills. I've been working as a software / web application developer for the past three years and think that you'll be most successful by working for a "normal" salary with a large, well established company which has a strong base in multiple media areas -- i.e. not just the web. > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job > (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with > their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? Most of the stuff that I know has been self taught over the past six years -- I'm lucky to have a good head for languages (not just computer languages) and started (kind of) with BASIC on an Apple II when I was at school. That said, I still have a large and full bookshelf within reach when I'm coding, for reference -- most coders I know will always have reference material to hand and many also have a code library on their machine, containing the most commonly-used scripts (rollovers, show/hide layers and so on). > Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that > maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I > really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring > to either my books, or at least previous work. And while I DO seem to be > getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't put a working web-based > database together from the top of my head, if my life depended on it. Ya > know? Not many people could, successfully and without any bugs at all. It takes twice as long for most people to build a web application without checking and referring, as they have to go back and debug at the end of the development phase. And as to age -- I'm 30, been coding for the web since 1996 and am currently Project Manager and Software Engineer for Gossweiler Media in Switzerland, developing applications in our own (4D-based) system G-OS . I'd say that I have extensive knowledge of XHTML, CSS and Javascript, but wouldn?t even think of starting a project without being within reach of my manuals (and the Evolt and CSS Discuss lists, naturally!!). Regards Mark Howells From mike at ahnfire.com Tue Jul 23 14:14:00 2002 From: mike at ahnfire.com (Michael K. Ahn) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:14:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: > > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a > > 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything > > NOT to do with their web passions)... Does this mean I don't have a 'real' job? No wonder my mom is always on my case! ;) Michael - Freelance neuromancer... aka professional nerd From dan at danromanchik.com Tue Jul 23 14:15:01 2002 From: dan at danromanchik.com (Dan Romanchik) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:15:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: <05d401c2327d$2d9b04b0$c27ba8c0@D9J77B01> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Harness" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent > living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working > for other companies etc? I do both freelance web development and freelance writing. It varies from month to month, but right now, the income is about 50-50. I think that if I devoted myself to it, I could be a full-time web developer, but it's more fun to do a little of both. > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job > (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with > their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? I certainly don't know everything. For example, I am definitely not a graphics designer. If a website requires something even a touch beyond the very basic in design, I hire a freelance graphics designer. Nor am I an expert in Java/PHP/Perl/SQL/whatever. I do know enough, however, to program most basic things in whatever language I need to. Sometimes, I'll get off the phone and immediately run to the nearest Border's to pick up a book on a particular language or technology, but I know where to look for the information I need to get the job done. I also know when I'm getting in over my head. At that point, I'll go out and find an expert in Java/PHP/Perl/SQL/whatever. > Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that > maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I > really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring > to either my books, or at least previous work. And while I DO seem to be > getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't put a working web-based > database together from the top of my head, if my life depended on it. Ya > know? Aside from a basic understanding of computer programming, I think the best skill a web developer can have is the ability to learn stuff quickly. Fortunately, that's always been one of my strengths. > Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, but > this thing has been nagging at me for a while. Usually everytime I look at > the job market and see all the skills required. If they pulled me in for an > interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd just > totally embarass myself. Hang in there, Roger. I'm a fair bit older than you are (just turned 47) and I'm still hacking away at it. It's a challenge, but if you don't want to be challenged, then you really are in the wrong business. Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Romanchik - Web Developer dan at danromanchik.com, 734-930-6564 From dan at danromanchik.com Tue Jul 23 14:18:01 2002 From: dan at danromanchik.com (Dan Romanchik) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:18:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: <05df01c2327d$a1b28fd0$c27ba8c0@D9J77B01> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:20 PM Subject: RE: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? > And Mike writes: > > Yes we know EVERYTHING! > > To which I add: > And further we also follow these Two Useful Rules: > > 1) Never tell anyone everything you know. I tell people that I know "almost everything." Sometimes people challenge me to prove it (i.e. hire me to do something for them). If I didn't know it before, I go out and learn it. Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Romanchik - Web Developer dan at danromanchik.com, 734-930-6564 From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 14:19:02 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:19:02 2002 Subject: oops [was: [thelist] Re: hanjj@netease.com's AutoReply] In-Reply-To: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> References: Message-ID: <200207231918.g6NJInNf001541@leo.evolt.org> sorry, folks, i didn't check my autocomplete in Pegasus and i sent this to the wrong address... i'll flail myself for y'all... Is your background image causing your page to load really slowly? Make sure the image isn't 2px by 2px, or similarly small. Make images at least 16-24px on each side, making it easier for browsers to tile, which takes less memory and CPU time, which results in a faster page draw. And don't forget that the CSS property 'background-repeat' is supported by NN4.x, which can make for smaller background images when you *don't* want it to tile. -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jul 23 14:19:07 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:19:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033057@ati-ex-01.ati.local> (and now it's my turn.) i've been involved with the intarweb for two years now. i'm 21 (just like you jonathan!!) and i work for a small company in california. i got my start doing c++ (not that i got very far) probably 8 years ago and that gave me a very good basis for learning other programming languages. just like jonathan said, learning the first one is the hardest, but from then on it's gets easier and easier. now, i am the webmaster/network administrator/techsupport for small company. although i could write (nearly) any (X)HTML document off the top of my head, i still have to copy and paste some code from other projects because i simply can't remember them. however i do this all day long (probably 10 hours a day on average) so just like a lot of other people on the list i am saturated (sometimes drowning) in code. which means i'm writing code all the time and thinking about it all the time. it just takes time roger, and determination too. there have been times when i've been working on a website starting at say 8pm and i don't realize anything has changed until i start to hear birds chirping the next morning. (ok fine, that might be a little exagerated, i mean, i do have to go to the bathroom and whatnot. the message is what's important.) just keep plugging away. chris. p.s. Arlen what's that second rule? it's driving me crazy!! ;) > -----Original Message----- > From: aardvark [mailto:roselli at earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:56 AM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know > *everything*? > > > > From: "Roger Harness" > [...] > > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) > actually making a > > decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be > > free-lance, or working for other companies etc? > > yes... i started right out of college as a webmaster, then moved on > to developing e-commerce sites, then spun off my own gig five > years ago that's grown to about 17 people today... starting it was > hell -- long hours (which i still do), little to no pay, lots > of scraping -- > but ultimately, it's a business, and expecting to just become a > wealthy guy without the ramp up time would be silly... > > > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a > > 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything > > NOT to do with their web passions)...do you folks actually know in > > your head most of the skills you need to perform? For example, > > PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write > working code > > that without having to rely on your notes, code snippets, manuals, > > etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL hardcore > > designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > > projects? > > i can write working HTML and CSS without looking at the specs at > all... i still validate it, however... > > i can write JS and ASP pretty well from memory, but rely on an > extensive code library i've amassed... > > i can SQL queries that work, but that you'd never want in a > production environment... i can do the same with PHP, perl, > ActionScript, Lingo, and a dozen other languages... > > IOW, if i didn't use a code library all the time, i'd be > doing myself a > disservice... with HTML and CSS, i still use a code library since it's > nice to have a standard block of code to go in every > that you don't have to retype (saves lotsa time)... > > ultimately, you can never be expected to remember all these > languages and all they do all at once... you'll pick up the ones you > use the most pretty damn well, and the rest will be little forays here > and there that build up your understanding and code library... > > > -- > Read the evolt.org case study > Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself > http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 > ISBN: 1904151035 > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com Tue Jul 23 14:24:01 2002 From: NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com (NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:24:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: <157.114e0933.2a6f0716@aol.com> -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Roger, I am probably a few steps ahead of you in ramping up to working full time in web development world. I am starting to remember how to code stuff without looking it up every **blasted** time. Things are starting to come more easily. I also have another (part time) job, and I do the web stuff in my spare time. In order to gain experience, I have done MORE than my share of free work. In fact have created a whole website for a summer swim and tennis club that I now belong to for free in exchange for my work (they definitely made out on this deal). There is tons of dynamic content now, that I am still learning how to do. I keep trying new things. I just created a form so the board of directors can email the whole membership, once all of the email addresses are collected. My goal is to get a full time job at a company doing what I am doing now. I am always searching the Internet job sites for jobs that I am qualified for, and now when they want 1-2 years of experience, I have it even though I only worked for myself to get it. Another part of the picture is how much you are advertising your work to local companies that might need some help with their website. I joined the chamber of commerce in my town, and that has gotten me some business, only from other chamber members and hopefully by word of mouth, i can get more web jobs through this channel. HTH, Nan > >1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a > >decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, > or >working for other companies etc? Nan Harbison Smith www.heritageconcord.org nan at heritageconcord.org From webshot at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 14:27:00 2002 From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:27:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's In-Reply-To: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3F010C4484@BOOTROS> Message-ID: <000201c2327e$dc4f7c60$6801a8c0@neonreactor> > CREATE TABLE 'images' ( > 'id' INT UNSIGNED NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT PRIMARY KEY, > 'filename' VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL, > 'alt' VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL, > 'width' INT NOT NULL, > 'height' INT NOT NULL > ); > > Then you can generate your links like this: > > > // assume db connection is up and running > // assume image id is held in a variable called $id > > $path = "/path/to/my/images/"; > > $s = "SELECT filename, alt, width, height FROM images WHERE > id = '". $id. "'"; $q = mysql_query ($s); $r = mysql_fetch_array ($q); > > ?> > > > alt=" > width=" > height=" /> > PHP has a very cool function, GetImageSize (http://www.php.net/getimagesize/ . This will save you from storing the width/height in the db... John Corry From mike at ahnfire.com Tue Jul 23 14:31:01 2002 From: mike at ahnfire.com (Michael K. Ahn) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:31:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: > In fact have created a whole website for a summer swim and > tennis club that I now belong to for free in exchange for my work (they > definitely made out on this deal). Hey what a good idea! I wonder if I could quickly put something together for the local golf club... or even the public course... Yeah... free golf. Michael From ccosta at servidores.net Tue Jul 23 14:31:11 2002 From: ccosta at servidores.net (Carlos Costa Portela) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:31:11 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033057@ati-ex-01.ati.local> Message-ID: Hello all! I have worked for 4-5 companies and yes, my economy *was* health. And, just for curious, and as a comment about programming languages: I knew C and Assembler, initially. In my first job, people work in Perl, and I've entered in it without know Perl (http://www.registros.net; hosting company) The second one, people work in PHP, and I didn't know PHP (http://www.demasiado.com; internet portal) The third, Python, and the same (http://www.cellnetwork.com; consultancy) The fourth, Java, [idem] (http://www.genasys.es; mobile services) Mastering a programming language is not basic, as you can know. I've lived three dot-com crashes and, since October, I am improving myself programming (and looking for investors!). Hope this helps, Carlos. _______Carlos Costa Portela_________________________________________________ | e-mail: ccosta at servidores.net | home page: http://casa.ccp.servidores.net | |_____T?dalas persoas maiores foron nenos antes, pero poucas se lembran______| From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jul 23 14:45:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033057@ati-ex-01.ati.local> Message-ID: > i'm 21 (just like you jonathan!!) Ditto. How many 21 year old web-developers are there on this list? :) I'm doing freelance work to offset some of the bigass college tuition bill that shows up twice a year. I'm a double major in Comp Sci and Comp Info Sys, so I'll end up with some kind of computer job next summer after graduation... Like most everyone else, I'm self-taught and have an extensive code library that I refer to constantly. I've been doing (X/D)HTML for almost 8 years now and have been online for more than half my lifetime... The smartest folks in this biz know what they don't know. It's not about keeping all the information in your head. Space is limited there (speaking for myself, of course), and so you want to keep the resources in your head, not the code. It's easier to remember "this site has tons of CSS info" rather than trying to remember the funny-looking CSS2 selectors. Of course, if you spend a week working on nothing but CSS2, you might find yourself referring to that site less and less... Hang in there, Roger! --ken From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 14:54:00 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:54:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll be 21 in august! :D (and heavily inebriated) I'd also like to add that you (Roger) shouldn't get down on yourself for having to look things up. I don't know a single programmer/developer who doesn't have at least 10-15 language-specific books on hand at all times. I work full-time (landed a nice deal during the dot-com rage) but I also freelance on the side whenever possible, so I'm paying the bills both ways. I agree with Ken too, in that I think it's best to do some intense work in a particular area if you really want to get good at it. Roll through the innumerable Java tutorials on the web if you want to learn Java; go through all the examples in the JavaScript faq's at irt.org; study code examples from aspin.com and read all the articles on 4guysfromrolla.com. The web is your friend, I use it (google, I should say) more than my books. Everything you need to know is out there, you just have to be willing to sit down and do the examples and make an honest effort to learn the concepts, not just the langauge syntax. Your head will handle the rest! Good luck! Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > Ditto. How many 21 year old web-developers are there on this list? :) > > I'm doing freelance work to offset some of the bigass college tuition bill > that shows up twice a year. I'm a double major in Comp Sci and Comp Info > Sys, so I'll end up with some kind of computer job next summer after > graduation... > > Like most everyone else, I'm self-taught and have an extensive > code library > that I refer to constantly. I've been doing (X/D)HTML for almost > 8 years now > and have been online for more than half my lifetime... > > The smartest folks in this biz know what they don't know. It's not about > keeping all the information in your head. Space is limited there (speaking > for myself, of course), and so you want to keep the resources in > your head, > not the code. It's easier to remember "this site has tons of CSS info" > rather than trying to remember the funny-looking CSS2 selectors. > Of course, > if you spend a week working on nothing but CSS2, you might find yourself > referring to that site less and less... > > Hang in there, Roger! > > --ken From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 14:56:01 2002 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:56:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" Message-ID: >I just said the subject line really loudly, but without the acronym... :) > >My header graphic loads in every browser except Mozilla 1.0... AFAIK, it's >just a standard .jpg file exported from Photoshop. I right-clicked on the >image, and chose "view image" from the menu only to have this error show >up: > >The image "http://www.yoursite.com/etc/header.jpg" cannot be displayed, >because it contains errors." > >That's not particularly helpful. Anyone know what the heck is going on >here? It's a bug I've encountered too. >(site url masked since this is intranet stuff...) :( That could fit. The only time I see the bug is when I check my own site *locally* (on my PWS fake-domain). Online it behaves normally. Bottom line: it can't be helped. It's a bug. ppk _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From slawrence at lucidvagary.com Tue Jul 23 14:56:06 2002 From: slawrence at lucidvagary.com (Sean Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 23 14:56:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] Cold Fusion upload form Message-ID: <000701c23283$7a81d9b0$6201a8c0@gardkith> -- Does anyone know of a good mysql upload form for Cold Fusion? thanks, sean -- [ winmail.dat was deleted, please don't send attachments with your message. ] -- From cvos at netpaths.net Tue Jul 23 15:02:01 2002 From: cvos at netpaths.net (Cayley Vos) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:02:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: Shopping cart software In-Reply-To: <20020723192348.A8245C03C@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: The best PHP/mysql shop out there is http://Oscommerce.com - used to be called the exchange project. It has most features of Amazon et al. Cayley Vos, Principal office: 310-372-3086 cell: 360-303-0150 http://netpaths.net _______________________________________________________ web hosting | search engine marketing | web development From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 15:04:07 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:04:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Cold Fusion upload form In-Reply-To: <000701c23283$7a81d9b0$6201a8c0@gardkith> Message-ID: sean, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Sean Lawrence > > Does anyone know of a good mysql upload form for Cold > Fusion? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< what exactly are you trying to do? give some more details and someone here probably has a solution for ya. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From wade_lists at runstrong.com Tue Jul 23 15:08:00 2002 From: wade_lists at runstrong.com (Wade Armstrong) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:08:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 7/23/02 10:41 AM, Roger Harness at magic32 at jps.net wrote: on 7/23/02 10:41 AM, Roger Harness at magic32 at jps.net wrote: > do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? I don't think most people on this list know *everything* - and especially cannot *do* everything well. I've found the key is to know a whole bunch of people who are good at all that other stuff I'm not good at. Make friends with folks, bring a team together for big projects. And as for yourself, get good at some intersection of what you enjoy and what your customers seem to like. Wade From jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 15:09:00 2002 From: jeffwilhelm2 at hotmail.com (Jeff Wilhelm) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:09:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: I'm 19, that's close enough... Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Blessing" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 3:57 PM Subject: RE: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? > I'll be 21 in august! :D > (and heavily inebriated) > > I'd also like to add that you (Roger) shouldn't get down on yourself for > having to look things up. I don't know a single programmer/developer who > doesn't have at least 10-15 language-specific books on hand at all times. I > work full-time (landed a nice deal during the dot-com rage) but I also > freelance on the side whenever possible, so I'm paying the bills both ways. > > I agree with Ken too, in that I think it's best to do some intense work in a > particular area if you really want to get good at it. Roll through the > innumerable Java tutorials on the web if you want to learn Java; go through > all the examples in the JavaScript faq's at irt.org; study code examples > from aspin.com and read all the articles on 4guysfromrolla.com. The web is > your friend, I use it (google, I should say) more than my books. Everything > you need to know is out there, you just have to be willing to sit down and > do the examples and make an honest effort to learn the concepts, not just > the langauge syntax. > > Your head will handle the rest! Good luck! > > Chris Blessing > webguy at mail.rit.edu > http://www.330i.net > > > > Ditto. How many 21 year old web-developers are there on this list? :) > > > > I'm doing freelance work to offset some of the bigass college tuition bill > > that shows up twice a year. I'm a double major in Comp Sci and Comp Info > > Sys, so I'll end up with some kind of computer job next summer after > > graduation... > > > > Like most everyone else, I'm self-taught and have an extensive > > code library > > that I refer to constantly. I've been doing (X/D)HTML for almost > > 8 years now > > and have been online for more than half my lifetime... > > > > The smartest folks in this biz know what they don't know. It's not about > > keeping all the information in your head. Space is limited there (speaking > > for myself, of course), and so you want to keep the resources in > > your head, > > not the code. It's easier to remember "this site has tons of CSS info" > > rather than trying to remember the funny-looking CSS2 selectors. > > Of course, > > if you spend a week working on nothing but CSS2, you might find yourself > > referring to that site less and less... > > > > Hang in there, Roger! > > > > --ken > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 15:19:00 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:19:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020723201850.68235.qmail@web12603.mail.yahoo.com> Roger, I am 36, and have a family to boot, so I know where you are coming from. I also worked freelance out of my home for 2 years so I have some experience, like many others. I also agree, nobody knows everything. Anyone who tells you they never look at a reference (online or book) is lying to you - especially in the web world where it is a must to know multiple languages/markups etc. Having said that - you should be *proficient* in your core skills. HTML should be a core skill, and you should rarely be looking up stuff, IMO (but sure, it happens.) And either JavaScript or VBScript too, you should be profiecient at, in my opinion - depending on if you lean towards MS stuff (VB) or not. This means, you need to be able to write functions off the top of your head to *start* with. I find myself going to my JS references to either double check something I have written, to *verify* something (i.e., did I use the correct reference or keyword, did I get the structure correct from memory since I don't use it much) OR, to reference something I don't use much (such as regular expressions.) Lastly, when I'm writing something I have never done, thats the other time I ref. stuff. But outside your core competencies, don't expect to be able to write stuff off the cuff all the time. Like someone else said, when you code in something 30 hours a week you get real good. But when you code in something 3 hours a week, not so good. I know Java to a point, but ask me to write a Java program and I'm all over my books. But I can look at Java code and basically know what is going on (include JSP in that.) Some things, like CSS are still emerging technologies, too. Expect to be referencing stuff that changes or has poor standards and lots of workarounds. As far as money goes: Let me be a little more frank than others. Back in 97, 98 I made roughly $50,000, give or take as a GROSS. Luckily, my wife worked at the time because that was not enough. I think after taxes and all, I made around $28k. Not great. The trick about freelancing is this: A: You need to be able to sell work all the time in addition to doing it, to keep work coming or B: You need to garner clients that provide continual work. Both are tricky. I got to the point where it was either start a real business and hire sales people, or get a "real" job. I chose a job. I got with a startup as the boom was ramping up and made decent money then ($70k when I left). For awhile, I did even better with Scient, BUT whoah have things changed! I was unemployed for 8 months until early this year, trying to freelance. I even tried those online place where you can bid for jobs - they are - IMO - a joke. You got kids and foriegn folks bidding on jobs for TEN bucks an hour or even less. On 500 dollar jobs. Any big jobs, you never seem to be able to get considered for, and they are still being bid DIRT cheap - so even if you got it, in the long run it wouldn't be worth it. So, I searched and searched (with a headhunter) till I finally got a contract job in Las Vegas, where I had to move from Chicago. (Had no choice, losin the house!) Here I do (D)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, small JSP building front ends for back end stuff. I get around $21 per hour plus a per diem, but you can only collect that for one year. Will they hire me? Who knows. Its a tough go. If you don't have a family, its easier. My suggestions to you: 1: Get solid on core stuff: HTML, CSS, JavaScript or VBScript (both if you can!) 2: Learn at least one server side tech (ASP, JSP, PHP). I put PHP last because there are more "real" job opps in order I put them. Note, MS stuff seems to me to pay less, and more people all over it. 3: At least understand relational databases and how they work, and at least understand basic SQL - its not hard. Everything I suggest above, I learned on my own. You can do it, you just have to knuckle down and code a lot. Best of luck to you! (sorry for the length all) Tom ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 15:19:06 2002 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:19:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: >List folks...i've been wondering about this for a while, and have always >been too embarassed/worried to ask. But it's getting to a point where I >think I *need* to ask. The only stupid question is the question that's never asked. >I think I'm older then the majority of most folks on here who are still >basically starting out. (closing in on my mid-thirties). Did that read >correctly? I mean that most folks my age are probably past my current >situation of not really making any money from their web practices yet. Age is not the issue. The issues are: 1) Do you like making websites? 2) Do you like learning new things? If the answer to both is 'Yes' then your mind is young enough to take up the challenge. >Guess there's actually two parts to my question: > >1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a >decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or >working for other companies etc? For myself, definitely Yes (working for companies). And I started out only four years ago when I was 28. I suppose it's harder to start up now than it was three years ago, but if you really want to you can do it. >2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' >job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with >their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the >skills you need to perform? Depends. Do I know every single JavaScript command there is, including tricky syntax and even trickier browser compatibility problems? Of course not. Do I generally know whether a particular trick is possible in the various browsers? Yes (though sometimes I make mistakes). The point is not that you know your programming language of choice by heart, but that you get a 'feeling' for it. Will this task be a lot of work? Can I do it simpler? Should I maybe use another language/structure/whatever? Those are the questions that you can answer by heart after a few years of experience. Then you can look for the answers to the correct questions immediately, without wasting time on incorrect, superfluous or unimportant questions. >For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write >working code that without having to rely on your >notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL >hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on >projects? Depends. My own specialty is JavaScript and I can write simple scripts (say, mouseovers with some DIVs becoming visible and hidden) by heart without referring to anything. But as soon as it gets more complex I need some books, sites and research time. But basically no one can do without documentation. At present you'll need lots of documentation for every single line you write. This'll change with time, but you'll still need some aid for the really tricky bits, even when you're a Certified Senior Guru. Of course having to look up every single line does become a bore after a while, but you'll find that you need it less and less. >Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that >maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I >really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring >to either my books, or at least previous work. Nonsense. Everyone started that way. For the very first site I made I wrote a mouseover script I liked very much. The next time I had to look it up again. I still liked it when I saw it again, but I couldn't have coded it again by heart. Everyone is constantly referring to anything they've ever heard of. The real trick is to remember where you found a particular bit of information. It's not much different from sciences: as a professor of physics, history or whatever you can't know everyhing, you're not supposed to. However, you *are* supposed to know where you can find the answer to a particular question so that you can look it up with a minimum of wasted time. >And while I DO seem to be getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't >put a working web-based database together from the top of my head, if my >life depended on it. Ya know? How long have you been doing this? If the answer is three or four years of CGI programming I'd agree it's slightly silly. But I get the feeling that you've only been working for some months, so it's perfectly normal that you're struggling every time you set yourself a new task. >Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, >but this thing has been nagging at me for a while. Usually everytime I look >at the job market and see all the skills required. If they pulled me in for >an interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd >just totally embarass myself. I find the average skill description of the average job totally unrealistic, and that's because they're written by managers or Human Resource people. If a company asks for someone with knowledge of HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ActionScript, Java, PHP, CGI, ASP, TCP/IP, databases and XML (and of course a good eye for design and flawless communicative skills) I shrug. There simply aren't any such people. Sure, you can know a bit of everything but then you haven't got enough knowledge to actually code every aspect of a website. In my opinion specialization is the key to success on the job market. Choose what you want to do and become good, very, VERY good at it. Then people will forgive you for not knowing the WBR or TH tags, as long as you can make ASP rock-n-roll and databases fly. ppk _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From jjk3 at msstate.edu Tue Jul 23 15:21:01 2002 From: jjk3 at msstate.edu (Joel Konkle-Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:21:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1027455627.3d3dba8b32916@webmail.msstate.edu> > I'll be 21 in august! :D > (and heavily inebriated) 19 here, but can't a guy dream? -joel From webguy at mail.rit.edu Tue Jul 23 15:24:01 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:24:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <1027455627.3d3dba8b32916@webmail.msstate.edu> Message-ID: You could, or you could get yerself a fake id. :D (btw, I was too stupid to procure one whilst in college) Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > 19 here, but can't a guy dream? > > -joel From wes at pmason.karoo.co.uk Tue Jul 23 15:25:01 2002 From: wes at pmason.karoo.co.uk (**1st Vamp**) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Was my account causing problems on thelist? In-Reply-To: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> References: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <14834205244.20020723212330@pmason.karoo.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hello, I'm an avid reader of thelist on evolt.org, I was offline due to real life problems, and when I got back online my account was set to nomail..I can't remember doing this myself, and I also recieved an automated responce from my ISP's pop3 server saying my account was nearly full, and I was wondering if this caused any problems to thelist which resulted in my account being set to nomail? If so I appologize for any problems caused and will try to avoid such an event in the future. Thanks, Vamp / Wesley Mason -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQIMAwUAPT27RutR7En81eJTAQEQuQ+2KF16vs9oooYy5BsjFmmqT+U6Pg3mwtE5 6poJqahcY28a6t69w8Q2KAeq9sztFYJ6EVgiyLvgXqDwMHkWeBRrGaqXkMvvt5nD TFLUQsK7duQWCRe6oX3aj2vPa2CX5FUwjXfE9/0FtQxluNl9ewQK/VO7oXTVgqI8 HpWoDTmhaW0vmSBUxr914yMVeRLZj1VTo+Q7GKW2kh/n5zeXO3RV5YgsHQlXXBZJ eMADn6SDesBwxGn/8L/4k3Ri6EdGXdsCsjglag34rEIOtlPV6+S5ett+PMKnGZKx zG6Wyfgjj5QvpJuwsb1EAJTNO226egq2pHJQElCxlTb1eaq/kL3z5TGiiIm7Wlj0 Ns8b98uKKc9FqTwXBujcJDgXbdjSF8uSCSDvB7COgsuhZTNVgtUK44aGp9AO4XKz GsHeI7yOIrei/bst7Lp/CtnVCZKHSCzbZVrjGNTADqDh2VHKzVrCUmwyjZpnE9j6 H9XaHZfb4vLXD9sRKSW5F4Is2RXtMY4v+xqK2c9WOvJMhq9fGfgR9FQm9IrCyUgP yxUh04pM6kHHP3F+7qtnzLT0MZG/xisYOZvhTaD1Z2aTPaAVY+fLg0sdLw8eFSAS AOI1ReUIsC3xd5Y7J7XvpwQPTwNwP6NwzHiA41qL1yyMpbsX3TPGRBL2Ds5foZo= =i/zM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org Tue Jul 23 15:43:01 2002 From: RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org (Rebecca Milot-Bradford) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:43:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) Message-ID: > Get them copies of DreamWeaver (or FrontPage if you > prefer), teach yout coworkers how to make basic text > edits. [snip...] > > Also, if you're doing a lot of tedious maintenance, it > might be advantageous to throw some stuff into > databases. A few people have suggested various content management/spread out the updates ideas. And I'm looking into implementing some of the suggestions as quickly as possible. But how do you do any kind of quality control if people from other departments are making updates? Or maybe that is a stupid question, I don't have any experience with content management software, so for all I know, this is addressed. But updating the content is a very small piece of the overall work of maintenance. There's also all the stuff like search engine positioning, log/traffic analysis, link checking, tech support for the users, tweaking site architecture, maintaining any databases the site uses, updating forms, servicing sponsor agreements, creating ads, etc. Right now the site I manage contains 2,629 files (only about 1300 of which are web pages, the rest are scripts, images, etc). Of course, that doesn't include all of the content that resides in databases. I cringe every time someone asks me to add a whole new collection of material to the site, because I feel overwhelmed trying to keep up with the existing site. I would like to figure out what is the cost of maintaining the content on the site, so that I can go back to management and say "hey, is putting this material on the web site really a cost-effective thing to do? And if you want to go ahead and do it, you'll need to allocate $x in the budget." Well, ideally what I would like to do is figure out an effective way to explain that the web site doesn't have to hold every document the organization has produced in the past 25 years. And that every single committee we have probably shouldn't spend all of their time figuring out more things that could possibly be on the web site. I dunno, maybe I'm just not good at business speak, but I can't seem to get the point across. Thanks for letting me rant! Becky From slawrence at lucidvagary.com Tue Jul 23 15:48:00 2002 From: slawrence at lucidvagary.com (Sean Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:48:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Cold Fusion upload form In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c2328a$aab8f940$6201a8c0@gardkith> I'm trying to create a form to upload files to a mysql db through a browser. make sense? -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of .jeff Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 3:06 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] Cold Fusion upload form sean, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Sean Lawrence > > Does anyone know of a good mysql upload form for Cold > Fusion? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< what exactly are you trying to do? give some more details and someone here probably has a solution for ya. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 15:51:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:51:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Cold Fusion upload form In-Reply-To: <000c01c2328a$aab8f940$6201a8c0@gardkith> Message-ID: sean, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Sean Lawrence > > I'm trying to create a form to upload files to a mysql > db through a browser. make sense? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< so you're looking to store the files in the db as binary data? based on my experience, i'd recommend against doing that unless you have a really compelling reason. what part of the upload process are you having troubles with? the actual form? the action template that uploads the file? putting the file in the database? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From cparker at swatgear.com Tue Jul 23 15:56:03 2002 From: cparker at swatgear.com (Chris W. Parker) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:56:03 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes Message-ID: <001BD19C96E6E64E8750D72C2EA0ECEE033058@ati-ex-01.ati.local> > -----Original Message----- > From: austin govella [mailto:agovella at yahoo.com] > > Get them copies of DreamWeaver (or FrontPage if you > prefer), teach yout coworkers how to make basic text > edits. not good. a webmaster does not want people mucking around in her code. it's like a doctor saying to the people that file papers "hey guys, i'm really busy right now with some other operations and whatnot, and i was wondering if you would please take these tools (scalpal, tubes, medicine, etc.) and take care of the other operations for me? thanks you're the best!" "ok, but i don't do windows!" (ignore that last part.) chris. From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Tue Jul 23 15:57:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Tue Jul 23 15:57:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol Message-ID: > 19 here, but can't a guy dream? > [...] > You could, or you could get yerself a fake id. :D > > (btw, I was too stupid to procure one whilst in college) Believe it or not, I made it through my 21st birthday and bachelor's degree (been a graduate since last December, 'bout 7 months) without drinking at all, and I don't feel as though I've missed much. Incidentally, I got my degree from a branch campus (read: night school, mostly) where nobody drank. I've no moral qualms about moderate drinking, nor do I think less of those who do -- I simply have a long family history of self-destructive alcoholism on both sides, and for me, it isn't worth the risk. I'm fairly certain I could handle the occasional beer/whatever, but it's easier just to stay way from the stuff altogether than to try to rationalize limits. At the moment, my teetotalarianism (I'm sure that's not a word) hasn't had any serious social impact, but it may in the future, as I'm moving away for graduate school soon. How many significant conversations have taken place over a beer? ("beervolt," anyone?) Quite a few, I'm sure. So, question for the group*: Is teetotalarianism possible if one wishes to be a normal, social member of the Web development / Cpt Sci community? And if you're in college -- remember, math and alcohol don't mix: don't drink and derive. (-; -- Jonathan McPherson, LMIT/SD&I Software Engineer & Web Systems Analyst email / jonathan_a_mcpherson at rl dot gov * A desparate bid to give this post a semblance of relevancy. From ken.kogler at cph.org Tue Jul 23 16:12:01 2002 From: ken.kogler at cph.org (Ken Kogler) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is teetotalarianism possible if one wishes to > be a normal, social member of the Web > development / Cpt Sci community? Absolutely. It sounds like you're being pretty smart about the whole thing. If you need booze to have a good time, then you've got issues. I drank more often (socially, anyway) in high school, when it was illegal for me to do so, than I ever have in college. I think mostly it was due to the "I'm not supposed to be doing this" and "my parents would kill me" syndromes. I don't think you need beer, or any kind of alcohol, for an interesting conversation or a fun evening. The reason, I'd guess, that beervolts and such are so popular is because going to a bar is a "safe" activity -- if we had movievolts, no one would be able to decide on a movie (never mind the fact that we couldn't talk to each other)... A bar has something for everyone (billiards, darts, conversation; beer, whiskey, water) to enjoy. My $0.02. --ken From webshot at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 16:13:00 2002 From: webshot at members.evolt.org (John Corry) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:13:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c2328d$9826eaa0$6801a8c0@neonreactor> > Believe it or not, I made it through my 21st birthday and > bachelor's degree (been a graduate since last December, 'bout > 7 months) without drinking at all [... et al...] This is a web development list. In the guidelines we are urged to stay on topic, and when we diverge and get off topic, to 'pay' (ie: reimburse everyone for the time/bandwidth we consumed) with a tip. thelist is such a high quality list because of the high signal:noise ratio, please do your part to keep it that way. Got some web space where the default page is 'index.html' but want vistors to default to something else (like, index.php for instance)? You can modify a directory's default page in your .htaccess file (only on Apache). # like this DirectoryIndex yourpage.yourextension :) keep it green, John Corry From dnelson at netbank.com Tue Jul 23 16:19:01 2002 From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) Message-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B01ED3354@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com> Rebecca Milot-Bradford [mailto:RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org] wrote: > Well, ideally what I would like to do is figure out an > effective way to > explain that the web site doesn't have to hold every document the > organization has produced in the past 25 years. And that every single > committee we have probably shouldn't spend all of their time > figuring out > more things that could possibly be on the web site. I dunno, > maybe I'm just > not good at business speak, but I can't seem to get the point across. > > Thanks for letting me rant! > > Becky But it should contain every document that the company ever produced and all the revisions of those documents. Why shouldn't it? The real problem is coming up with a design and a navigational structure that will support that way of thinking from the start. I am struggling with that right now. My favorite design was; 1. The company logo real nice and big 2. A search box that can search for files by name, date, full-text, author, revision, etc... without being told which 3. A "go" button (a regular HTML submit button made pretty with CSS) 4. And a very small copyright notice. Dave Nelson From lists at pinetree.net Tue Jul 23 16:22:00 2002 From: lists at pinetree.net (Oren Levin) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:22:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roger, To add my two cents... 1. Yes, I make my living coding as a Web developer for audible.com. I started in grad school freelancing as a computer instructor helping people get online and surf. I've worked on an Illinois State Board of Education grant at Northwestern Univ. teaching K12 teachers and students how to do research online, as a grunt building parts of GE's Web sites, and as the Webmaster for Ricoh copiers. All told, I've been a Web professional for 6 years or so. 2. Do I know in my head what I need? For the things I do day in an day out (Perl coding mostly), yes. Even so, I have a fairly large library at work as a source of reference and as a trigger to think about new/better ways to code. Right now my Library at work (not counting more at home) consists of: Perl for Dummies Programming Perl Network Programming in Perl Advanced Perl Programming Inside Internet Security Effective Perl Programming Web Client Programming with Perl Data Munging with Perl UNIX for Dummies XML for Dummies Java Programming for Dummies UNIX in Plain English XML in Plain English Active Server Pages 2.0 ASP Techniques for Webmasters Practical Algorithms for Programmers Algorithms in C++ Applied Cryptography JavaScript the Definitive Guide Dynamic HTML the Definitive Guide Learning XML Mastering Regular Expressions Mastering Algorithms with Perl Oracle SQL the Essential Reference Learning Oracle PL/SQL Oracle PL/SQL Programming Do I use all of these every day? No. Depending on what I'm working on I may not open any of them or I may have 3 or 4 open at once. Bottom line: - figure out what your core skill-set is and be good at it. Push yourself to be better at your core skill-set every day so that you look up less and less. Spend the time you save adding new skills to your core. - You say you're comfortable with Perl - learn how to use the standard Perl modules (CGI.pm can be your friend when you have to build a script on demand in an interview). - Learn how to build your own module and put the functions you use in all/most/many of your scripts there so that you don't have to recode them each time. - Learn how to read someone else coding style. Everyone has their own style of writing code - it can be as good as a fingerprint when you're trying to tell which one of 6 coders wrote what you're looking at. - Take an existing script (your own from a while ago or someone else's) and rebuild it from scratch. Make sure your know what it's doing and how. See where you can improve it. Hope that helps, Oren ----- Oren Levin, Web Developer olevin at audible.com, 973.837.2811 Give the gift of audio - http://www.audible.com/giftcenter -----Original Message----- 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working for other companies etc? 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on projects? Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring to either my books, or at least previous work. And while I DO seem to be getting a handle on mysql-PERL stuff, I couldn't put a working web-based database together from the top of my head, if my life depended on it. Ya know? Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, but this thing has been nagging at me for a while. Usually everytime I look at the job market and see all the skills required. If they pulled me in for an interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd just totally embarass myself. Anyways, thanks for time, and again, sorry for taking up so much of it. tia, -Roger Harness From Ron.Luther at hp.com Tue Jul 23 16:39:01 2002 From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:39:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Message-ID: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A0602F4BA70@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi Gang, I guess I count myself in with those currently making a pretty decent living ... playing around in a job that involves doing 'web stuff' on an Intranet. Do we know everything? Of COURSE we do! {Just ask us - we'll tell you!} (What did Larry say about hubris?) It's really very easy once you realize that absolutely everything -- is intuitively obvious. Granted ... It may take some of us years of study and experience to realize *just* how intuitively obvious a particular thing might be ... but there you have it. Do we have to look stuff up? You bet! We even ask each other stuff from time to time! That's all part of the package ... Knowing where to look and who to ask. You don't have to memorize everything, you just have to know how to find what you need. Personally I think the 'age thing' that's come up later in this thread is a sword that cuts both ways. I think the younger folks may have the edge in 'newer' technologies and perhaps the intellectual curiosity to try out the latest demos and software versions and be up on the latest technical issues. I think the older folks have the benefits of experience; (a) they may have a larger reservoir of prior mistakes to have learned from, and (b) they may have a longer history of working with a particular client or client organization ... so they are more likely to "know" to add field "x" to the report even if it wasn't in the spec because the client *has* to have it to do what they want to do. I have mixed feelings about Peter's point on specialization. I'll agree that to get that '1st job' it's probably an excellent tactic. I think having a more generic understanding of capabilities is a better long range strategy. I also worry a bit about 'overspecialization' - it doesn't help you much to be the very best there is ... in a discipline where there is no work! Thinking back to when I just started with this web bologna ... It WAS more than a little frustrating. I wanted to pull database information into my web pages, but I couldn't do that with the little bit of HTML I learned. So I started learning JavaScript. (Boy was I ticked after 300 pages of reading and $$ out of my pocket for the dang JS book to find that JS wouldn't let me hit databases either!) So then it was on to server-side languages. Eventually it all starts to 'click'. One might even say it becomes ... intuitively obvious. Good Luck in Learning! RonL. (I'm one of the 'old' guys.) From masonc at masonc.com Tue Jul 23 16:42:01 2002 From: masonc at masonc.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:42:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1027460511.2259.74.camel@dell> Hi All, There seems to be a lot of interest in this topic so I am going to try to put together a complete answer that will help everyone decide if my solution is right for others. First, let me tell how we do it. We use a customized copy of eZPublish from http://developer.ez.no. This a php/mysql completely open source application that you can download for free and customize at will. We have a great deal of experience with this application and can make it work in a number of scenarios. A comparative commercial product would be in the tens of thousands with licensing fees per user. The application is huge, and provides the client with the features shown at the bottom of the email. This solution is so much better than using html, try using Dreamweaver to maintain a site of a thousand articles and ten users, a nightmare if you have to upgrade the site. For instance, if the article lead-in has 150x150 pixel images, and the art director decides it would be better to have 250x250, it's one setting in eZPublish to change it site wide. Being an opensource project, you have the source code and can change as needed. We found users had trouble remembering the tags, so I wrote a javascript toolbar for use in the article edit page, and release it to the public. Users like it a lot. I wrote the GPG encryption code so the Ecommerce module could send purchase invoicing securely to the site owner rather than using automated processing. The company that writes it is very dedicated to producing top quality code and the coders are very talented. The code is beautiful and uses Object Oriented PHP. Managing qualty: eZpublish allows for an editor group to control what appears on the site. Also, the admin gets an email when a new article is entered. Training is important also. As far as the look of an article, that is enforced by the CMS to the most part. As a web developer, I hate making changes to text, and requiring all text to go through a "techy" kills the sponteniety of the organization. For a Non-profit group, a sales operation, or anywhere you want the intelligent users to be able to get their information to the public (or other workers) without having to go through IT, this is a wonderful solution. We use the solution mainly for customers that want to be involved in their oen sites and have a lot of updates. One such site is www.edge.ai - a legal trianing company that wanted to be able to publish articles for clients in a protected area, and public articles to attract business. They can create user groups that segregate users according to the access they have paid for, they sell their publications on the site, and they manage all the articles themselves. We have shown them the new features available and they are employing use to upgrade the codebase to make these new features available to them. They also asked for customizations not in the code so we earned revenue writing custom code, much of which they agreed to release to the community. The implications for us as web developers is we get to work on more interesting and lucrative projects. Also, as we provide the hosting, customers don't lowball the hosting fees as it is a complex application and cannot be hosted on low end hosting. In the case of www.anguillaguide.com we own the site and use it as an attractor for our www.mycaribbean.com site, which you will realize is the same site. So is www.anguillaart.com and www.net.ai . We needed to have a lot of content that could be easily maintained and now we have several authors, none of which would have done anything if we were using HTML. These autors are not technically literate. In the next few weeks we are adding a section for the National Trust and their staff will be maintaing it and adding information. The software is not perfect, I can list some weaknesses, but it is constantly being improved and has come a long way since our first site with it. If anyone wants our help setting up a server to host with eZPublish, or wants a hosted solution, let me know and I will be glad to help. Chris eZPublish features: Artice management Use start and end dates for publishing XML storage of articles simple tag language Custom tags allow you to describe your own code as a tag Self continaed XML parser written in PHP WYSIWYG client (not free) using XMLRPC Content and Code Separation through templating allows designers to work independent of content writers Public can be allowed to submit articles Frontpages allow presenting mixure of articles from different categories Ecommerce module Complete until checkout - attach your own checkout code or use example code Form Module allows admin to add forms Links module for links management allows public to submit their own links including images Intranet modules - contact, calendar, todos, email Ad banner rotation and management - allows HTML banners Image management - upload, catalogue and ize management with captions and photographer credits Media management such as Flash, MP3 and Video Built in statistics User management with group permissions Multiple designs can be applied on a category basis URL translation allows real words to be directed to pages File management, files can be attached to articles or offered as seperate module Search module Caching provides speed Security enforced through rewrite rule No FTP access needed for clients On Tue, 2002-07-23 at 16:45, Rebecca Milot-Bradford wrote: > > Get them copies of DreamWeaver (or FrontPage if you > > prefer), teach yout coworkers how to make basic text > > edits. [snip...] > > > > Also, if you're doing a lot of tedious maintenance, it > > might be advantageous to throw some stuff into > > databases. > > A few people have suggested various content management/spread out the > updates ideas. And I'm looking into implementing some of the suggestions as > quickly as possible. But how do you do any kind of quality control if people > from other departments are making updates? Or maybe that is a stupid > question, I don't have any experience with content management software, so > for all I know, this is addressed. > > But updating the content is a very small piece of the overall work of > maintenance. There's also all the stuff like search engine positioning, > log/traffic analysis, link checking, tech support for the users, tweaking > site architecture, maintaining any databases the site uses, updating forms, > servicing sponsor agreements, creating ads, etc. > > Right now the site I manage contains 2,629 files (only about 1300 of which > are web pages, the rest are scripts, images, etc). Of course, that doesn't > include all of the content that resides in databases. I cringe every time > someone asks me to add a whole new collection of material to the site, > because I feel overwhelmed trying to keep up with the existing site. I would > like to figure out what is the cost of maintaining the content on the site, > so that I can go back to management and say "hey, is putting this material > on the web site really a cost-effective thing to do? And if you want to go > ahead and do it, you'll need to allocate $x in the budget." > > Well, ideally what I would like to do is figure out an effective way to > explain that the web site doesn't have to hold every document the > organization has produced in the past 25 years. And that every single > committee we have probably shouldn't spend all of their time figuring out > more things that could possibly be on the web site. I dunno, maybe I'm just > not good at business speak, but I can't seem to get the point across. > > Thanks for letting me rant! > > Becky > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From Ron.Luther at hp.com Tue Jul 23 16:49:01 2002 From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Visual Basic Schedule Message-ID: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A0603CDD6A1@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi Josh, There used to be a commercial package called "Clockman" for windows machines. It was a scheduler program. HTH, RonL. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Spiegel [mailto:josh at eaccessit.com] From headlemur at clearskymail.com Tue Jul 23 16:53:00 2002 From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:53:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: <00f801c23293$83bbcee0$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com> No..... That's why they have editors :0) I have been doing websites for 5 years and know almost nothing. I would starve if I looked to websites as my sole source of income. I don't take on many clients as I know almost nothing except that I can look at a set of requirements and pass projects on. I also design and build computers and networks for small businesses. Then I build them websites. the head lemur News: http://www.lemurzone.com/news/ Interviews: http://www.lemurzone.com/pixelview/ Standards: http://webstandards.org Community: http://www.evolt.org From headlemur at clearskymail.com Tue Jul 23 16:58:01 2002 From: headlemur at clearskymail.com (the head lemur) Date: Tue Jul 23 16:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol References: Message-ID: <011601c23294$422ba3a0$0400a8c0@clearskybroadband.com> june 1 2002 marks 15 years clean and sober other folks in the same boat are zeldman, zeldman.com josh davis, praystation jeff clark, lucid confusion to name a few... and yes it is one day at a time. the head lemur News: http://www.lemurzone.com/news/ Interviews: http://www.lemurzone.com/pixelview/ Standards: http://webstandards.org Community: http://www.evolt.org From slawrence at lucidvagary.com Tue Jul 23 17:01:01 2002 From: slawrence at lucidvagary.com (Sean Lawrence) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:01:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A0602F4BA70@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <000f01c23294$e3a90a10$6201a8c0@gardkith> -- Well, I'm personally a sys admin (NT, 2000, Linux), currently out of work in Chi-town, with a degree in psychology and am currently working on learning CF, PHP, and Actionscript. I know HTML and CSS pretty well, a bit of JavaScript, some XML, getting better at SQL, and already have loads of experience setting up environments. I've been finding that even with CSS which I've concentrated on for a long time requires reference. In my experience, you learn best by reading example snippets and tear it apart. I was able to simply look at a set of PHP scripts after learning HTML, CSS and JavaScript and figured out how to switch variables around to get the app they formed running on my machine and was able to customize the code a bit to make changes to the web interface without picking up a book on PHP (which I do strongly recommend if you want to do more than mess about, book or online reference, whatever works best for you). So, I would say once you have a few things under your belt, new things are easier to pick up but references are indispensable. I can't imagine a linguist would know every facet of their trade and I know from experience as a psych student that the DSM IV is invaluable as a reference for mental health pros. BTW, I am 29 and enjoying unemployment thanks to our current economy. Cheers, Sean -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Luther, Ron Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:38 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? Hi Gang, I guess I count myself in with those currently making a pretty decent living ... playing around in a job that involves doing 'web stuff' on an Intranet. Do we know everything? Of COURSE we do! {Just ask us - we'll tell you!} (What did Larry say about hubris?) It's really very easy once you realize that absolutely everything -- is intuitively obvious. Granted ... It may take some of us years of study and experience to realize *just* how intuitively obvious a particular thing might be ... but there you have it. Do we have to look stuff up? You bet! We even ask each other stuff from time to time! That's all part of the package ... Knowing where to look and who to ask. You don't have to memorize everything, you just have to know how to find what you need. Personally I think the 'age thing' that's come up later in this thread is a sword that cuts both ways. I think the younger folks may have the edge in 'newer' technologies and perhaps the intellectual curiosity to try out the latest demos and software versions and be up on the latest technical issues. I think the older folks have the benefits of experience; (a) they may have a larger reservoir of prior mistakes to have learned from, and (b) they may have a longer history of working with a particular client or client organization ... so they are more likely to "know" to add field "x" to the report even if it wasn't in the spec because the client *has* to have it to do what they want to do. I have mixed feelings about Peter's point on specialization. I'll agree that to get that '1st job' it's probably an excellent tactic. I think having a more generic understanding of capabilities is a better long range strategy. I also worry a bit about 'overspecialization' - it doesn't help you much to be the very best there is ... in a discipline where there is no work! Thinking back to when I just started with this web bologna ... It WAS more than a little frustrating. I wanted to pull database information into my web pages, but I couldn't do that with the little bit of HTML I learned. So I started learning JavaScript. (Boy was I ticked after 300 pages of reading and $$ out of my pocket for the dang JS book to find that JS wouldn't let me hit databases either!) So then it was on to server-side languages. Eventually it all starts to 'click'. One might even say it becomes ... intuitively obvious. Good Luck in Learning! RonL. (I'm one of the 'old' guys.) -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! -- [ winmail.dat was deleted, please don't send attachments with your message. ] -- From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 17:16:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:16:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write Message-ID: <20020723221528.90727.qmail@web12608.mail.yahoo.com> I'm forgetting something obvious here, help me out. I want to use multiple document.write()'s to write some content to the page, using a JavaScript custom object. I want to say the if you do one write, then another - doesn't the second one REwrite over the first? I have like 6 in a row I need to do. I tried using document.close() at the end, that doesn't work. I thought there was some kind of concatenation you could do, but I can't locate it. Tom ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 17:30:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:30:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write In-Reply-To: <20020723221528.90727.qmail@web12608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: tom, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > I want to use multiple document.write()'s to write some > content to the page, using a JavaScript custom object. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< before or after the page has finished loading? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I want to say the if you do one write, then another - > doesn't the second one REwrite over the first? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it depends. are you doing the writing from within a function that gets called by some action in the document? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I have like 6 in a row I need to do. I tried using > document.close() at the end, that doesn't work. I > thought there was some kind of concatenation you could > do, but I can't locate it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you could always concatenate the string you want to write and then do the document.write() once you've got the string the way you want it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From masonc at masonc.com Tue Jul 23 17:40:01 2002 From: masonc at masonc.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:40:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write In-Reply-To: <20020723221528.90727.qmail@web12608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020723221528.90727.qmail@web12608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1027463990.2259.86.camel@dell> Append to a var then write the var var html; html = "text" html += "more text" document.write(html) as a recall, without looking up how I did it last time I wrote any JS. On Tue, 2002-07-23 at 18:15, Tom Dell'Aringa wrote: > I'm forgetting something obvious here, help me out. > > I want to use multiple document.write()'s to write some content to > the page, using a JavaScript custom object. > > I want to say the if you do one write, then another - doesn't the > second one REwrite over the first? I have like 6 in a row I need to > do. I tried using document.close() at the end, that doesn't work. I > thought there was some kind of concatenation you could do, but I > can't locate it. > > Tom > > ===== > var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); > > http://www.pixelmech.com/ > http://www.maccaws.com/ > [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 17:41:00 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:41:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020723224039.12443.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> --- ".jeff" wrote: > tom, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > > > I want to use multiple document.write()'s to write some > > content to the page, using a JavaScript custom object. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > before or after the page has finished loading? I currently am doing it using onLoad just to test. I think in the final, I could do it whichever way works best. > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I want to say the if you do one write, then another - > > doesn't the second one REwrite over the first? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > it depends. are you doing the writing from within a function that > gets called by some action in the document? I will be instatiating a JS object, and then calling its method sometime during load or onload. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I have like 6 in a row I need to do. I tried using > > document.close() at the end, that doesn't work. I > > thought there was some kind of concatenation you could > > do, but I can't locate it. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > you could always concatenate the string you want to write and then > do the document.write() once you've got the string the way you want > it. > > .jeff ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 17:42:13 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:42:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: [offlist] Was my account causing problems on thelist? In-Reply-To: <14834205244.20020723212330@pmason.karoo.co.uk> References: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200207232241.g6NMfkNf005258@leo.evolt.org> Wesley, First off, you migh want to update your address book so my address isn't associated with thelist address. That can be pretty confusing for me, and means I might miss stuff like this. If your account was bouncing because it was over quota, then I most likely set your account to nomail. This way, your account doesn't keep filling up, and I don't get a bounce for every post to thelist. All you have to do is log in and reset your preferences when your account is cleaned out, and you should be all set. > From: **1st Vamp** > To: aardvark > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: MD5 > > Hello, > > I'm an avid reader of thelist on evolt.org, I was offline due to real > life problems, and when I got back online my account was set to > nomail..I can't remember doing this myself, and I also recieved an > automated responce from my ISP's pop3 server saying my account was > nearly full, and I was wondering if this caused any problems to > thelist which resulted in my account being set to nomail? If so I > appologize for any problems caused and will try to avoid such an event > in the future. > > Thanks, > Vamp / Wesley Mason > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6 > > iQIMAwUAPT27RutR7En81eJTAQEQuQ+2KF16vs9oooYy5BsjFmmqT+U6Pg3mwtE5 > 6poJqahcY28a6t69w8Q2KAeq9sztFYJ6EVgiyLvgXqDwMHkWeBRrGaqXkMvvt5nD > TFLUQsK7duQWCRe6oX3aj2vPa2CX5FUwjXfE9/0FtQxluNl9ewQK/VO7oXTVgqI8 > HpWoDTmhaW0vmSBUxr914yMVeRLZj1VTo+Q7GKW2kh/n5zeXO3RV5YgsHQlXXBZJ > eMADn6SDesBwxGn/8L/4k3Ri6EdGXdsCsjglag34rEIOtlPV6+S5ett+PMKnGZKx > zG6Wyfgjj5QvpJuwsb1EAJTNO226egq2pHJQElCxlTb1eaq/kL3z5TGiiIm7Wlj0 > Ns8b98uKKc9FqTwXBujcJDgXbdjSF8uSCSDvB7COgsuhZTNVgtUK44aGp9AO4XKz > GsHeI7yOIrei/bst7Lp/CtnVCZKHSCzbZVrjGNTADqDh2VHKzVrCUmwyjZpnE9j6 > H9XaHZfb4vLXD9sRKSW5F4Is2RXtMY4v+xqK2c9WOvJMhq9fGfgR9FQm9IrCyUgP > yxUh04pM6kHHP3F+7qtnzLT0MZG/xisYOZvhTaD1Z2aTPaAVY+fLg0sdLw8eFSAS > AOI1ReUIsC3xd5Y7J7XvpwQPTwNwP6NwzHiA41qL1yyMpbsX3TPGRBL2Ds5foZo= > =i/zM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From bvaradi at nlcnet.org Tue Jul 23 17:47:01 2002 From: bvaradi at nlcnet.org (Benjamin C. Varadi) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:47:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol References: Message-ID: <3D3DDC93.3A3D4935@nlcnet.org> ** assorted ramblings on age, politics, drinking and whatever have been self-censored from this post to save face & bandwidth. what remains follows. ** - The Finlandia Vodka website is superclean. In fact, their designs both on the web & paper have been gorgeous for a long time. - The Absolut site is frustrating, but has some interesting color use (& is home to tons of those ads, which continue to be one hell of a campaign) - The last issue of Educated Community (http://www.ecnyc.org/ to my knowledge available only at the wonderful design store Zakka www.zakkacorp.com) had an interview with this graffiti artist who supposedly inspired the Captain Morgan (www.rum.com) "the Captain was here" campaign by stenciling over CM ads (feel free to shift into guerrila design discussion and the frustrating success of Shepard Fairey www.obeygiant.com). I totally forget his name. -BEN -- Benjamin C. Varadi Webmaster, National Labor Committee 275 7th Ave, 15th Floor. NYC 10001 pager: bengoesbeep at vesana.com phone: (212) 242-3002 x387 www.nlcnet.org From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 17:51:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:51:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write In-Reply-To: <20020723224039.12443.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: tom, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tom Dell'Aringa > > > before or after the page has finished loading? > > I currently am doing it using onLoad just to test. I > think in the final, I could do it whichever way works > best. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ok, so you're currently doing it after the page loads. am i right in guessing that you're getting errors? or not? at any rate, if you do it with the onload event handler, you're effectively overwriting the entire contents of the current document, including the function that's doing the document.write()ing. the exception is if you're writing the contents to another frame. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I will be instatiating a JS object, and then calling its > method sometime during load or onload. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i would recommend against that if you're stuck using document.write(). instead, put your script block inline where you want the content written. don't use a function. just script it out and let it write it wherever you put the script block. holler if i'm not understanding your problem. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From pixelmech at yahoo.com Tue Jul 23 17:54:01 2002 From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:54:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] document.write In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020723225322.7683.qmail@web12604.mail.yahoo.com> --- ".jeff" wrote: > tom, > i would recommend against that if you're stuck using > document.write(). instead, put your script block inline where you > want the content written. don't use a function. just script it > out and let it write it wherever you put the script block. > > holler if i'm not understanding your problem. > > thanks, > > .jeff Got it, thanks! ===== var me = tom.pixelmech.webDeveloper(); http://www.pixelmech.com/ http://www.maccaws.com/ [Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 17:54:08 2002 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jul 23 17:54:08 2002 Subject: oops again [was Re: [thelist] Re: [offlist] Was my account causing problems on thelist?] In-Reply-To: <200207232241.g6NMfkNf005258@leo.evolt.org> References: <14834205244.20020723212330@pmason.karoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200207232253.g6NMrINf005515@leo.evolt.org> sh-t. sorry folks... clearly i need to go home now... tip later... -- Read the evolt.org case study Usability: The Site Speaks for Itself http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151035/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151035 From masonc at masonc.com Tue Jul 23 18:07:01 2002 From: masonc at masonc.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue Jul 23 18:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1027465599.1417.102.camel@dell> Let me address these issues also > > But updating the content is a very small piece of the overall work of > maintenance. Depending on the site. If your aim is to have a site that is constantly changing, it's the biggest of the tasks. What's the point of a website that has little content - that's whats known as a fluff site. There's also all the stuff like search engine positioning, Content and change brings traffic, that's why we are so keen on large amounts of it. For instance, try this: http://www.google.com/search?q=rum%20punch Look who's number 4 and this http://www.google.com/search?q=anguilla between 1 and 4 consistantly One of the advantages of eZPublish is that it will produce the meta-keywords from the article content. Another is the URLs are real, not queries, and search engines prefer that. Compare http://www.anguillaguide.com/article/articleview/372/1/77/ which looks like a static url to a search engine, with http://www.domain.com/index.php?article=123&cat=45 which search engines will not follow. The meta-description is taken from the article lead-in so that changes for each page also. Imagine trying to get users to do this manually. > log/traffic analysis, Built into eZPublish link checking, No need mostly, menus are dynamic, so only hard coded links can be wrong. tech support for the users, A lot less goes wrong when it's dynamic tweaking site architecture, Pretty hard to do with static content maintaining any databases the site uses all done through the admin interface , updating forms, users can do this > servicing sponsor agreements, Click throughs are shown, easy to add revenue stats creating ads, etc. Design, which is what we would prefer to be doing. > > Right now the site I manage contains 2,629 files (only about 1300 of which > are web pages, the rest are scripts, images, etc). Of course, that doesn't > include all of the content that resides in databases. I cringe every time > someone asks me to add a whole new collection of material to the site, > because I feel overwhelmed trying to keep up with the existing site. That's why you need a CMS. Let the users add their own content. You can concentrate on promotionl, design and coding. From Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov Tue Jul 23 18:14:01 2002 From: Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov (Jonathan_A_McPherson at rl.gov) Date: Tue Jul 23 18:14:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Tip reimbursement (was [OT] Alcohol) Message-ID: > This is a web development list. In the guidelines we are urged to stay > on topic, and when we diverge and get off topic, to 'pay' (ie: reimburse > everyone for the time/bandwidth we consumed) with a tip. You're right, and I apologize -- I do indeed owe. Two tips, one for this post and one for the offending one: Most of the JavaScript I see written makes poor use of the semicolon as a statement terminator, relying instead on JavaScript/ECMAScript's automatic insertion rules. This is a bad idea for several reasons: * It relies on the browser's implementation of ECMAScript to correctly decide where the semicolons ought to be placed. * It discourages you from understanding proper semicolon usage -- a skill that you'll need if you want to learn Java, C++, C, C#, or any of the other multitude of C-based languages. * It makes your code harder to understand for those who don't know ECMAScript but do know another C-based language. Terminate your statements properly -- use semicolons. Everyone, including you, will be happier in the long run. Use Mozilla? Go to Web sites and find yourself asking "I wonder how they're doing that" but are too lazy to go to the trouble to find where the source code is for the effect (who wants to go to the trouble of searching for and downloading external CSS or script files in the code)? Check out these way-cool bookmarklets! http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/webdevel.html They display all kinds of useful stuff about the page you're currently on: the contents of all the stylesheets that are loaded, all the scripts that are loaded, etc. Drag 'em to your browser's link bar and enjoy hours of code voyeurism. -- Jonathan McPherson, LMIT/SD&I Software Engineer & Web Systems Analyst email / jonathan_a_mcpherson at rl dot gov From ajohnson at purplemountain.net Tue Jul 23 18:32:01 2002 From: ajohnson at purplemountain.net (Amy Johnson) Date: Tue Jul 23 18:32:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <20020723215101.E0D4C3A26@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: I'm a struggling web page developer (age 37). I started this business as a way to stay at home with my young children ages 7 mos and 3 yrs. (past professions: computer programming, system administration, groundwater engineering). I've been doing it for 1.5 years and think my main problem is lack of marketing skills and too many out-of-work computer folks trying to do the same thing. I am mainly living off my husband hoping this business will pick up by the time my kids are in school but I think I should team up with some graphic artists, flash developers, etc and go for the gusto if I really want to make it work. My philosophy is that I can figure out anything a client needs with some time, some good books, and the web. So I don't think it matters whether I have to look at a book or not. Who cares as long as I can create a product that is works well for the client? This is a really fun career and I hope it works but if not, then it's time to move on again. Amy www.rocky-hills.com From david at gigawatt.com Tue Jul 23 18:45:01 2002 From: david at gigawatt.com (David Kaufman) Date: Tue Jul 23 18:45:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? References: Message-ID: <008301c232a2$de34fae0$0100a8c0@snowwhite> "Roger Harness" asked... > 1. Are most of the folks on this list (for example) actually making a decent > living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working > for other companies etc? can't speak for most. i'd imagine the ones who are actively making a list are doing the majority of *posting* and replying to the list, while the ones who are "in training" (read: wannabe's) are primarily reading, lurking, learning and amassing vast stores of knowledge. i typically lurk the lists of a new technology to "get a feel" for the community, and wait till i actually have something to contribute (or at least specific answerable questions) before posting. personally i've done freelance/contract perl/cgi/mod_perl work for round 3 years, followed by two 18-month stints at different dot-coms as a full-time, W-2, cog-in-the-wheel programmer, (each punctuated by the obligatory dot-com layoff) and am currently back to contracting, again (but i prefer the term "self un-employment"). > 2. For the folks that ARE doing well enough to not have to work a 'real' job > (you know...as in retail, services...etc etc,...anything NOT to do with > their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the > skills you need to perform? most? yes. when you do something eight hours a day for years you tend to learn the vast majority of it by heart. i can say that i do know all of the core perl syntax (that i *use*, perhaps not ALL-all of it) and all of the CGI.pm, DBI, CGI::Application and HTML::Template modules (again that i use. each have obscure methods and features that i never use and therefore don't know, but could cwertainly look up). I also can put together SQL queries in MySQL and Sybase/MSSQL (T-SQL) "off the top of my head" but that's really not much of a feat. SQL has like a half dozen commands? :-) once you know the basics of SQL and have done a thousand or so different database apps, it becomes second nature :-) > ... For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you > actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your > notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? not only can i write working perl code without notes, manuals, etc. i actually catch myself *dreaming* in perl, from time to time! but does that mean you can't make a living as a perl programmer till you dream in perl? absolutely not! it's actually the other way around. you can hold a job, fulfill contracts and make a living as a perl programmer as soon as you know enough to get the job done (whatever that job might be). as a web developer, you're pretty much always going to have a web browser with internet access handy... and therefore: google, CPAN (and certain mailing lists). if you know how to approach the problem, and where/how to *find* what you need to do implement the solution, then that's genally all you need. and i know 90% of the HTML and CSS that i ever use. i'd say every couple of months, i'll have the need to reach for an O'Reilly book (usually JavaScript: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Ed). but that's because i probably do 90% perl and 10% HTML, CSS and Javascript. Days or weeks that i find myself doing a lot of JS code it seems to "all come back to me" and i remember things that i used to know, but buried for a time, and find I need the book less and less often. My wife says there's maybe only enough room for one technology in my brain at any given time, so, to the extent that i'm doing more than one thing, i have to refer to outside data streams :-) > ...Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL > hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on > projects? i'd say no one can do ALL 100% of their work without using a crib sheet of some kind from time to time. > Does that question even make sense? Personally, I get a little nervous that > maybe I don't really have the "stuff" to make it in this business, as I > really can't even do a basic JavaScript roll-over script without referring > to either my books, or at least previous work. well, to build up your memory, *and* your confidence, try to avoid literally cutting and pasting code into what you;re doing, even if you wrote it yourself! simply re-type it. this will help you re-understand it, and understanding the thing is critical to remembering it. > ... If they pulled me in for an > interview, and told me to make a working CGI form, I'm pretty sure I'd just > totally embarass myself. not to scare ya, but they *do* tend to do stuff like that. i've had at least three perl job interviews where they "tested" me. in one case it was a *verbal* quiz, too not a written one, which was stressful. the written tests were simple one-word-answer questions or multiple choice but they were little trick questions, mostly designed to weed out the applicants who couldn't understand the finer points, i.e. spot and explain the differences between variables and references like $variable %{$variable} and @$variable, or the difference between my() and local{}, BEGIN{} and END{} blocks, or other language features that one programmer may tend to make use of every day, while others may find confusing, avoid altoghether, or consider trivia. i doubt an interwiewer would ask you to write a whole functioning *program*, though, if thats any help :-) hth, -dave From wes at pmason.karoo.co.uk Tue Jul 23 19:00:01 2002 From: wes at pmason.karoo.co.uk (**1st Vamp**) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Was my account causing problems on thelist? In-Reply-To: <14834205244.20020723212330@pmason.karoo.co.uk> References: <200207231904.g6NJ4dNf001119@leo.evolt.org> <14834205244.20020723212330@pmason.karoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1299303998.20020724005703@pmason.karoo.co.uk> Sorry about that...meant to just send it to aadvark, how's that for a newbie mistake. Will give a tip when I have info to give. - Vamp Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:23:30 PM, **1st Vamp** wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: MD5 > Hello, > I'm an avid reader of thelist on evolt.org, I was offline due to real > life problems, and when I got back online my account was set to > nomail..I can't remember doing this myself, and I also recieved an automated responce from my ISP's pop3 server saying my account was nearly full, and I was wondering if this caused any problems to > thelist which resulted in my account being set to nomail? > If so I appologize for any problems caused and will try to avoid such an event in the future. > Thanks, > Vamp / Wesley Mason From Anthony at Baratta.com Tue Jul 23 19:02:01 2002 From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:02:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Javascript Eval Help.... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723165516.02d7f9c0@baratta.com> I can't see my error.... I'm gettting an error with this line: eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Subtotal.value') = parseInt(eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value')) * parseFloat(eval('document.FormOOS.unitPrice' + x + '.value')); The error is: Error: invalid assignment left-hand side document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Subtotal' exists in the form, but I can't seem to assign a value to it when I use the Eval function. Here's the function: (don't be confused with the little ASP code in there ;-) function reCalcOrderForm() { document.FormOOS.EDUSubtotal.value = 0 for (x=1;x<=<%=i%>;x++) { if (eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value') != "") { if (isNaN(eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value'))){ eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value') = "0"; } eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Subtotal.value') = parseInt(eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value')) * parseFloat(eval('document.FormOOS.unitPrice' + x + '.value')); document.FormOOS.EDUSubtotal.value = parseFloat(document.FormOOS.EDUSubtotal.value) + parseFloat(eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Subtotal.value')); } } } Any ideas?? --- Anthony Baratta President Keyboard Jockeys "Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative." From RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org Tue Jul 23 19:05:01 2002 From: RMilot-Bradford at nsca-lift.org (Rebecca Milot-Bradford) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) Message-ID: > > > > But updating the content is a very small piece of the > overall work of > > maintenance. > Depending on the site. If your aim is to have a site that is > constantly > changing, it's the biggest of the tasks. What's the point of > a website > that has little content - that's whats known as a fluff site. I think we are talking about different things, here. When I referred to updating content, I was thinking of the department-specific stuff that really doesn't change a whole lot -- such as info about membership benefits and rates, descriptions of the different publications, meeting minutes, bylaws, position statements, stuff like that. And by the way, although that content doesn't change a whole lot, it is hardly fluff and is considered pretty vital to the people in the industry. NEW content is a whole 'nother bird. Creating NEW content is the fun, exciting part of the job that I am trying to make more time for. Creating new content is why I got into this gig, having been a writer and magazine editor previously. > There's also all the stuff like search engine positioning, > Content and change brings traffic, that's why we are so keen on large > amounts of it. For instance, try this: > http://www.google.com/search?q=rum%20punch > Look who's number 4 > and this > http://www.google.com/search?q=anguilla > between 1 and 4 consistantly So you are saying that you never feel the need to check on your search engine positioning and perhaps tweak content to improve it? I have a top ten Google listing on every keyword our management team has identified as being important to us, but I still find that it requires a certain amount of maintenance to stay there. > > log/traffic analysis, > > Built into eZPublish But at some point an actual human being has to sit down and look at the numbers and decide what they MEAN. > tech support for the users, > A lot less goes wrong when it's dynamic It doesn't matter how good the technology is, we will still have people who want to call to find out their member ID, or to check that their membership application really went through (despite the fact that they received an immediate confirmation plus a confirmation email), or to ask WHY they can't get the early registration price two days after the early registration deadline. > tweaking site architecture, > Pretty hard to do with static content How so? Let's say I run a site that sells equestrian gear. I have all of the content and products categorized as tack, clothing, grooming supplies and accessories. However, after analyzing my logs and tracking user behavior, I notice that users are either looking for English gear or Western gear. I try out some new categorization/navigation schemes on a small number of users. In response to what I found in testing, I tweak the site architecture so that everything is now categorized as either English or Western, and revise the navigation accordingly. The content hasn't changed, but the site architecture certainly has. > maintaining any databases the site uses > all done through the admin interface The particular interface doesn't really matter, this task must still be done. I won't bore everyone with some additional complications I deal with, but I will say that the database interface is the least of my problems. > , updating forms, > users can do this I could maintain 10,000 pages in the time it would take me to teach one user to safely add a field to the database that will be holding the form data, and to then update all of the related queries. > > servicing sponsor agreements, > Click throughs are shown, easy to add revenue stats Not ads, sponsors. All those contracts that say things like, "every time event X is mentioned, your name will also be mentioned" and "no other beverage company will receive more prominent mention than Beverage Company Y." > creating ads, etc. > Design, which is what we would prefer to be doing. Heh, wish I could turn that over to you. I loathe creating ads. There are some good ideas in here, and as I said in the last post, I am looking into implementing some of the ideas as quickly as possible to relieve the pressure. But I think it is unrealistic to claim that one product cures all ills. And throwing around comments like "that's whats known as a fluff site" makes it hard to focus on the constructive advice. So sorry if I took it the wrong way -- I've tried to keep my aggravation from coming through here but it probably did anyway. Becky From thelist at web-artel.net Tue Jul 23 19:09:01 2002 From: thelist at web-artel.net (Dmytro Borovsky) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:09:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] vector world map In-Reply-To: <200207231752.g6NHqPNf031878@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000c01c232a6$397edad0$c5522ad4@HOME> > so, anyone know a place i can grab vector world maps? i > don't need the countries, just outlines of the continents... Maybe Webdings font on Windows. The very last symbols are world maps. Have a nice day. Dmytro Borovsky. From AWilliams at rfbd.org Tue Jul 23 19:15:01 2002 From: AWilliams at rfbd.org (Williams, Alice) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:15:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) Message-ID: <1819AC6AEA6DFE41B2406903CB5674675B9BE6@20SEXCH1.RFBD.org> Hi, I have recently been tasked with providing remote sites with training materials, software guides and other stuff. So I picked up a couple of books to help me with the content management which was the first "oh my go.." realization. So here they are if you'd like to check them out. The first one is management for launching or relaunching a site but it has a web site that offers some useful forms. Workflow that Works by kelly Goto & Emily Cotler www.web-redesign.com and Content Management Bible by Bob Boiko. Hope this helps. Alice -----Original Message----- From: Chris Mason [mailto:masonc at masonc.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 7:07 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: RE: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) Let me address these issues also > > But updating the content is a very small piece of the overall work of > maintenance. Depending on the site. If your aim is to have a site that is constantly changing, it's the biggest of the tasks. What's the point of a website that has little content - that's whats known as a fluff site. There's also all the stuff like search engine positioning, Content and change brings traffic, that's why we are so keen on large amounts of it. For instance, try this: http://www.google.com/search?q=rum%20punch Look who's number 4 and this http://www.google.com/search?q=anguilla between 1 and 4 consistantly One of the advantages of eZPublish is that it will produce the meta-keywords from the article content. Another is the URLs are real, not queries, and search engines prefer that. Compare http://www.anguillaguide.com/article/articleview/372/1/77/ which looks like a static url to a search engine, with http://www.domain.com/index.php?article=123&cat=45 which search engines will not follow. The meta-description is taken from the article lead-in so that changes for each page also. Imagine trying to get users to do this manually. > log/traffic analysis, Built into eZPublish link checking, No need mostly, menus are dynamic, so only hard coded links can be wrong. tech support for the users, A lot less goes wrong when it's dynamic tweaking site architecture, Pretty hard to do with static content maintaining any databases the site uses all done through the admin interface , updating forms, users can do this > servicing sponsor agreements, Click throughs are shown, easy to add revenue stats creating ads, etc. Design, which is what we would prefer to be doing. > > Right now the site I manage contains 2,629 files (only about 1300 of which > are web pages, the rest are scripts, images, etc). Of course, that doesn't > include all of the content that resides in databases. I cringe every time > someone asks me to add a whole new collection of material to the site, > because I feel overwhelmed trying to keep up with the existing site. That's why you need a CMS. Let the users add their own content. You can concentrate on promotionl, design and coding. -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From simon at incutio.com Tue Jul 23 19:49:01 2002 From: simon at incutio.com (Simon Willison) Date: Tue Jul 23 19:49:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status code Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020724014549.00bc4c18@mail.incutio.com> For an automatic link checker it would be useful to be able to make an HTTP request to a web server that returns /just/ the status code (and possibly other headers) but not the full document. Is this possible? I imagine it is as browsers seem to be able to do this and get back the last-modified date before deciding whether or not to download the document. Cheers, Simon Willison http://www.bath.ac.uk/~cs1spw/blog/ From lindsay at redsquare.com.au Tue Jul 23 20:00:01 2002 From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans) Date: Tue Jul 23 20:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status code In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020724014549.00bc4c18@mail.incutio.com> Message-ID: > For an automatic link checker it would be useful to be able to > make an HTTP > request to a web server that returns /just/ the status code (and possibly > other headers) but not the full document. Is this possible? Try the HEAD method: HEAD / HTTP/1.1 Just returns the status code & headers Note: this may not work with some web servers, I've noticed that IIS4 doesn't do it (although that may be something to do with our setup) -- Lindsay Evans. Developer, Red Square Productions. [p] 8596.4000 [f] 8596.4001 [w] www.redsquare.com.au From masonc at masonc.com Tue Jul 23 20:12:01 2002 From: masonc at masonc.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue Jul 23 20:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] web site maintenance woes (rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1027473109.6909.10.camel@dell> Rebecca, I don;t know your situation, I am advocating the general application of CMS for large websites allowing the web designer to stay our of content. As a web development team, we hate changing rates, telephone numbers, stuff the clients could do. Updating content: If your details are out of date, the site is useless. If the web designer has to update it, chances are it will become out of date. If the people who know about the changes make them, there's more hope of the changes being made. By fluff I mean a site that has little real content. I've no idea what you work on. > > NEW content is a whole 'nother bird. Creating NEW content is the fun, > exciting part of the job that I am trying to make more time for. Creating > new content is why I got into this gig, having been a writer and magazine > editor previously. So you function more as a content person than a designer? Then this thread is not for you. I'm addressing the needs of designers to get out of content maintenance and creation and let the writers write. > > So you are saying that you never feel the need to check on your search > engine positioning and perhaps tweak content to improve it? I have a top ten > Google listing on every keyword our management team has identified as being > important to us, but I still find that it requires a certain amount of > maintenance to stay there. Are you kidding, we do it all the time. I never said that. I think you have sidetracked the subject into issues that have nothing to do with the thread, the maintenance of website content. They are interesting subjects, but not what I am addressing. From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 20:43:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 20:43:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Javascript Eval Help.... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723165516.02d7f9c0@baratta.com> Message-ID: anthony, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Anthony Baratta > > I can't see my error.... > > I'm gettting an error with this line: > > eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Subtotal.value') = > parseInt(eval('document.FormOOS.prod' + x + 'Qty.value')) * > parseFloat(eval('document.FormOOS.unitPrice' + x + '.value')); > > The error is: > > Error: invalid assignment left-hand side ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< look closer. the error message you're getting is actually telling you what the problem is. in human terms, it's saying you can't have an eval() on the left side of the assignment operator (=). the answer is to wrap the entire statement with another eval(). whoa! hold up! first, for every eval() in that function, hit your head with that big, fat js reference book i *know* you keep handy. when you're done, come back and finish this email. you don't need to use the eval() method at all. use the elements array to access those dynamically named form elements. like this: document.FormOOS.elements['prod' + x + 'Subtotal'].value; make sense? not only will the error go away, but the code will be imminently more readable and you won't be unnecessarily using up client-side horsepower. now go take two advil for that headache. ;p .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From shanx at shanx.com Tue Jul 23 21:50:01 2002 From: shanx at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Tue Jul 23 21:50:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. Message-ID: <006f01c232bc$ba4cf000$3408a8c0@DMF59> I noticed recently on some websites that images (all cacheable items) are refered in a relative way as ./images instead of, /images for example. Wondering if there is any benefit in doing so? An example is www.epiphany.com, and it loads pretty fast -- which of course could be a function of many things, but wondering if above relative reference makes a difference. Shanx From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 23:07:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: <006f01c232bc$ba4cf000$3408a8c0@DMF59> Message-ID: shanx, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Shashank Tripathi > > I noticed recently on some websites that images (all > cacheable items) are refered in a relative way as > > ./images > > instead of, > > /images > > for example. > > Wondering if there is any benefit in doing so? An > example is www.epiphany.com, and it loads pretty > fast -- which of course could be a function of many > things, but wondering if above relative reference makes > a difference. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the way images are referenced won't change how fast a site loads as all references are converted to absolute references internally by the browser as it parses the document. there is a benefit to root relative, or leading slash, paths. if you change your sites document structure, but images, scripts, and stylesheets are all still in the same folders you won't have to go change the paths to get them all working again as root relative paths are not in anyway relative to the calling document's location from the root of the site. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From Anthony at Baratta.com Tue Jul 23 23:12:01 2002 From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:12:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Javascript Eval Help.... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723165516.02d7f9c0@baratta.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723210926.02d63760@baratta.com> At 06:44 PM 7/23/2002, .jeff wrote: >you don't need to use the eval() method at all. use the elements array to >access those dynamically named form elements. > >like this: > >document.FormOOS.elements['prod' + x + 'Subtotal'].value; I knew there was a better way!!! Still, the JS reference at Netscape says I can have the eval on the left side of a '='. http://developer.netscape.com/docs/manuals/js/client/jsref/toplev.htm#1063795 Example 4. In the following example, the setValue function uses eval to assign the value of the variable newValue to the text field textObject: function setValue (textObject, newValue) { eval ("document.forms[0]." + textObject + ".value") = newValue } So am I miss reading the above example?? --- Anthony Baratta President Keyboard Jockeys "Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative." From bvaradi at nlcnet.org Tue Jul 23 23:15:00 2002 From: bvaradi at nlcnet.org (Benjamin C. Varadi) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:15:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] volunteering design skills Message-ID: <3D3DDD70.2F5183DD@nlcnet.org> You know, it's occured to me that if one tenth of a percent of the energy spent on vanity blogging and webcams and updating personal site templates and checking site stats compulsively went to say, designing & implementing sites for nonprofits like NCADD (can you tell which post influenced this one?) etc, think about how pretty (and more functional) the useful (ie: nonprofit research, stats, & news provision) parts of the web could be. And hey, I'm sure those sites would be happy to put up a "designed/developed by n" footer on their pages. Does any resource exist to coordinate this? Does anyone wanna help create one? To those of you who asked about tech training volunteer opps, I'm still compiling a list, btw. There'll be a link posted eventually to a db. -BEN -- Benjamin C. Varadi Webmaster, National Labor Committee 275 7th Ave, 15th Floor. NYC 10001 pager: bengoesbeep at vesana.com phone: (212) 242-3002 x387 www.nlcnet.org From mliotta at r337.com Tue Jul 23 23:15:06 2002 From: mliotta at r337.com (Matt Liotta) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:15:06 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status code In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020724014549.00bc4c18@mail.incutio.com> Message-ID: <02a601c232ac$2d72fef0$6401a8c0@FREEWILL> I believe that is referred to as a HTTP HEAD request. Matt Liotta President & CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: 4155778070 at messaging.sprintpcs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] > On Behalf Of Simon Willison > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:49 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status code > > For an automatic link checker it would be useful to be able to make an > HTTP > request to a web server that returns /just/ the status code (and possibly > other headers) but not the full document. Is this possible? I imagine it > is > as browsers seem to be able to do this and get back the last-modified date > before deciding whether or not to download the document. > > Cheers, > > Simon Willison > http://www.bath.ac.uk/~cs1spw/blog/ > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From mliotta at r337.com Tue Jul 23 23:15:13 2002 From: mliotta at r337.com (Matt Liotta) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:15:13 2002 Subject: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <02aa01c232ae$2ca1e160$6401a8c0@FREEWILL> With IIS you can configure what types of HTTP requests it responds to. Further, you can configure individual ISAPI filters to respond to different types of HTTP requests. For example, you could allow HEAD requests on .html files, while not allowing them on .cfm files. Matt Liotta President & CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: 4155778070 at messaging.sprintpcs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] > On Behalf Of Lindsay Evans > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:05 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thelist] HTTP request question: returning just the status > code > > > > For an automatic link checker it would be useful to be able to > > make an HTTP > > request to a web server that returns /just/ the status code (and > possibly > > other headers) but not the full document. Is this possible? > > Try the HEAD method: > > HEAD / HTTP/1.1 > > Just returns the status code & headers > > Note: this may not work with some web servers, I've noticed that IIS4 > doesn't do it (although that may be something to do with our setup) > > -- > Lindsay Evans. > Developer, > Red Square Productions. > > [p] 8596.4000 > [f] 8596.4001 > [w] www.redsquare.com.au > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 23:18:00 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:18:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] Javascript Eval Help.... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020723210926.02d63760@baratta.com> Message-ID: netscape, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Anthony Baratta > > Still, the JS reference at Netscape says I can have the > eval on the left side of a '='. > > So am I miss reading the above example?? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, you're not misreading it at all. this is an example of the documentation being incorrect. try executing this statement in your choice of javascript enabled browser (paste as one long line): javascript:myVar='foo';eval('self.'+myVar)='bar';alert(self[myVar]);void(0); the error you will get will be different from browser to browser, but in essence they're complaining that you're using eval() on the left side of an assignment operator (=). now you know the solution though -- you don't ever need to use eval(). ;p .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jul 23 23:41:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:41:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Javascript Eval Help.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: anthony, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: .jeff > > netscape, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< apologies for calling you a foul name. ;p avoid the eval() method. it's easy with things that are available as properties of objects, but what do you do with top level variables? the answer is simple -- the self object and bracket notation. instead of: eval('foo'); try this: self['foo']; .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From cd-ml at aardvark.net.au Tue Jul 23 23:51:00 2002 From: cd-ml at aardvark.net.au (Craig) Date: Tue Jul 23 23:51:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. References: Message-ID: <000701c232cd$ac478d10$b769fea9@max1> It does work when using "." and "..". For Example: fs.OpenTextFile(server.mappath("..\dir\dir\file.txt") Craig. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Blessing" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: RE: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. > I believe you can use relative pathing within the server.mappath() function > but I cannot recall 100% since I haven't tried it myself. :) > > Chris Blessing > webguy at mail.rit.edu > http://www.330i.net > > I forgot... do you get "." and ".." using FSO? You'll have to ignore > > those. > > > > Michael From ccosta at servidores.net Wed Jul 24 01:52:01 2002 From: ccosta at servidores.net (Carlos Costa Portela) Date: Wed Jul 24 01:52:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Amy and all: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Amy Johnson wrote: > years and think my main problem is lack of marketing skills and too > many out-of-work computer folks trying to do the same thing. I am > mainly living off my husband hoping this business will pick up by the > time my kids are in school but I think I should team up with some > graphic artists, flash developers, etc and go for the gusto if I > really want to make it work. My philosophy is that I can This is my problem, too!: marketing and design skills. I suspect that a lot of us have lack of experience in two of these three areas: marketing, programming, design; and I think that programmers are especially bad doing marketing or design. If I am a programmer, how can I improve my marketing skills?. This is a hard topic for me. Can do you solve this problem? Best regards, Carlos. _______Carlos Costa Portela_________________________________________________ | e-mail: ccosta at servidores.net | home page: http://casa.ccp.servidores.net | |_____T?dalas persoas maiores foron nenos antes, pero poucas se lembran______| From ccosta at servidores.net Wed Jul 24 01:54:00 2002 From: ccosta at servidores.net (Carlos Costa Portela) Date: Wed Jul 24 01:54:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <008301c232a2$de34fae0$0100a8c0@snowwhite> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, David Kaufman wrote: > not only can i write working perl code without notes, manuals, etc. i > actually catch myself *dreaming* in perl, from time to time! but does that A friend of mine says that his breakfast use to be 'Perl and Chocolat'. Best regards, Carlos. _______Carlos Costa Portela_________________________________________________ | e-mail: ccosta at servidores.net | home page: http://casa.ccp.servidores.net | |_____T?dalas persoas maiores foron nenos antes, pero poucas se lembran______| From tim at pollenation.net Wed Jul 24 02:05:00 2002 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Wed Jul 24 02:05:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <008301c232a2$de34fae0$0100a8c0@snowwhite> Message-ID: <000e01c232e2$345664b0$0200a8c0@henry> "Roger Harness" asked... 35 year old UK programmer/freelancer/company owner who used to be a research engineer on large electrical machines (programming FORTRAN) and before that a BBC Micro hacker, replies I've been programming for 20ish years and have forgotten almost everything I know. I am now self employed and have to do so many different things that I can only spend a relatively small amount of time per week doing anything in particular and the next time I do it I forget anyway. I found the best way to approach things is when you experience something the first time, do the kid thing and ask "why" "why" "why" and start to really, really understand the stuff behind the stuff you're doing. You won't remember the exact way you did stuff next time but you'll remember why and what you needed to know to get their. Eg been learning postgresql in an in depth way as we're starting to use it for nearly everything from now on. I bought 3 postgresql books and have the online documentation on my desktop. When I needed to set up a complicated table restructure, I looked heavily into plpgsql and sql functions. This took me into the depths of "select into" against "views" against "create table from " and transactions inside pgsql/sql functions and not to use create tables or indexes inside plpgsql/sql functions etc. and I looked up on google for people discussing these things and phoned friends who are dba's for 'philosophical' help. This only took an hour or so but at the end of the it I had an understanding of how and why lots of things worked. I could have written it just using the sql I knew in about 20 minutes but I learned a 'load' in that hour or so. Next time I did it I had to look back at what I did and look in the manuals but I knew what I was looking for. .. and then I was doing sales, and then liaising with printers and then doing a business proposal and then search engine optimisation. I won't get back to postgres for another week. I suppose my point is you make your learning opportunities for you. It may slow you down on the job your on but it will speed you up and make you better in the long run. Ps I have 7 shelves of computer related books and another about 40 books in storage. I spend about 70 pounds a month on books and haven't regretted it. Tim From cache at dowebscentral.com Wed Jul 24 02:25:01 2002 From: cache at dowebscentral.com (Keith) Date: Wed Jul 24 02:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: References: <20020723170908.4A5B53A39@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020723234019.01c09c20@www.dowebscentral.com> >their web passions)...do you folks actually know in your head most of the >skills you need to perform? For example, PERL/CGI programmers...can you >actually, basically write working code that without having to rely on your >notes, code snippets, manuals, etc? Or is that just silly? Do almost ALL >hardcore designers/programmers use some sort of 'help' when working on >projects? After coding Perl & Javascript for 6 years I have a very extensive library of snippets that I use all the time (why would I want to memorize syntax that's only a mouse click away?) And I do indeed have a dozen or more manuals that I pretty much quit using when Google came out with the Google Taskbar. Simple code, complex code, if I need to look it up I find a Google search beats the books almost every time. It's amazing how much code comes up when you ask the right question. As far as trying to learn everything, I'm too lazy for that kinda nonsense. I specialize in the kind of work I do so I've teamed up with half a dozen associates with other skill sets that I've met on Evolt or the old Web Monster Design List. Some I've worked with for more than 4 years on dozens of jobs without ever having met them or having ever put our relationships to paper (other than what goes on a check). I've actually never had web work come to me that didn't come through one of these associates. All but one of them run design studios for-hire and make pretty good livings at it. But they all depend on me or someone else to do things they can't do. One of them has even become my "business agent" (she calls herself my pimp) and I route all my work through her. >living programming, coding, design etc? Whether it be free-lance, or working >for other companies etc? Those aren't the only options. It took me a couple of years to convince my associates to quit selling our talents for-hire. It created a few lean times at first when we started turning down any work where we couldn't take equity, but it's paid off. Once you start demanding equity you'll be surprised at the kinds of businesses that will require that you take equity. They know you'll do a better job, they know you wont come up missing when they need an overhaul, and they'll stay out of your hair and let you build it your way. By "equity" I don't just mean a percentage of their business. On an auto dealer's site we offer $50 to $100 coupons. When a customer redeems a coupon during a purchase we get X% of the sales commission even if they're buying a car that was not displayed on the site. This made sense to us and even more sense to their sales manager who expects to pay for service. On another site I get 10% of all sales because my design make those sales happen. On another I convinced the "client" that he had no business having a web site, instead I built the site to my taste and run it my way - he sets a "list price" and I set the retail price and he's my drop-shipment fulfillment center. We're both doing what we're good at. The point I'm trying to make is that most approaches to the web just bolt the web onto an old business model. But, the web itself creates new opportunities to design new models. One of my associates has a photo from a farm in North Dakota of an electric motor bolted to a flywheel that operates the handle on an old hand-operated water pump. His motto is, "Did you bolt your business up to the web, or did you change the way you do business?" Reading through the responses to this thread, it appears to me that many web designers have not yet embraced the web's dynamics and are still "doing business the old way". This is a young industry, from my experience we all need to rethink our relationship to the rest of society - at least once a day. >Sorry for taking up so much space for a probable WAY off-topic question, If this subject is off-topic then what could possibly be "on" topic? Thanks for the question Roger. And FWIW, don't fret about your age, kid. Keith ==================== cache at dowebscentral.com From roblgs at cscoms.com Wed Jul 24 02:39:00 2002 From: roblgs at cscoms.com (Rob Schumann) Date: Wed Jul 24 02:39:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] "WTF, Mozilla?!" In-Reply-To: <3D3D80E5.10906@tapinternet.com> Message-ID: <20020724143707-r01010800-aaea3a19-0910-0108@210.203.176.202> Hi, On 23-07-2002 Michael Kimsal wrote: > > The image "http://www.yoursite.com/etc/header.jpg" cannot be > > displayed, because it contains errors." Just a thought... Photoshop will allow saving jpegs using the cmyk colour model... this can choke some browsers (I think I recall seeing this in Mozilla) which will only accept rgb jpegs. Any help?? Cheers Rob From tim at pollenation.net Wed Jul 24 03:00:01 2002 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Wed Jul 24 03:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] OT - do programmers/designers know *everything*? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020723234019.01c09c20@www.dowebscentral.com> Message-ID: <001101c232e9$e2338070$0200a8c0@henry> Keith said > I pretty much quit using when Google came out with the Google >Taskbar. As far as trying to learn everything, I'm too lazy for that kinda >nonsense. I have to say, as much as google is a useful resource, the quality of the code out there is very often extremely poor and you have to know what you are looking for to find it. The great thing about books is that if I scan read a book on postgres (that example again) then I know what postgres *can* do. Someone who has used postgres has dedicated a lot of time into writing a concise description of its attributes. This isn't available online (although the postgres manual is very good, try looking up anything useful on pgsql for a challenge). PHP is an exception where the annotated manual (now in cfm help format) is a great resource. Books have there place Tim From chris.price at stl.org Wed Jul 24 04:27:00 2002 From: chris.price at stl.org (Chris Price) Date: Wed Jul 24 04:27:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags Message-ID: According to the RNIB you should use alt="*" where the image is used purely for layout purposes and for long descriptions use LONGDESC. ref: http://www.rnib.org.uk/digital/hints.htm under the subtitle:Images ~:?< Chris Price > ---------- > From: James Aylard > Reply To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 18:41 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] alt tags > ... Use alt text where it is appropriate. Use an empty alt attribute (e.g., > alt="") where no alt text is needed. _____________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the WorldCom Internet Managed Scanning Service - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.worldcom.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jul 24 04:42:01 2002 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jul 24 04:42:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: Message-ID: chris, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Chris Price > > > From: James Aylard > > ... Use alt text where it is appropriate. Use an > > empty alt attribute (e.g., alt="") where no alt text > > is needed. > > According to the RNIB you should use alt="*" where the > image is used purely for layout purposes and for long > descriptions use LONGDESC. > > ref: http://www.rnib.org.uk/digital/hints.htm under the > subtitle:Images ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm afraid i have to disagree with rnib on this one. using an empty alt attribute is far superior as the screen reader will skip over it entirely. by using an asterisk there could be some confusion between an image used for layout and an image used as a bullet. additionally, if your design has a top table row with spacer shims and they all have an alt attribute value of "*" then the user has to endure something like: "asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, logo for foo, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk..." what a nightmare. using empty alt attributes the bit above would be reduced to: "logo for foo, ..." i see no reason to bother the user with imagery that's there only for design purposes and does nothing for non-visual users. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jamesnewbery at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 24 05:01:01 2002 From: jamesnewbery at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Newbery?=) Date: Wed Jul 24 05:01:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020724100023.59652.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> --- ".jeff" wrote: > i'm afraid i have to disagree with rnib on this one. > using an empty alt attribute is far superior as the > screen reader will skip over it entirely. by using > an asterisk there could be some confusion between an > image used for layout and an image used as a bullet. Agreed. The RNIB are trying to mitigate for inaccessible design by less informed web authors. Their suggested use of the asterisk is like saying "No there really isn't anything here of interest". It's like filling all the white space on your screen with the word 'nothing'. Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Wed Jul 24 05:05:01 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Wed Jul 24 05:05:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Frame, Target, Different Domains Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724105248.027a06c8@216.6.8.1> I'm aware that I've done nothing but whinge for help here for a couple of days, and I promise that once this rash of overwork is done, I shall contribute more useful stuff. However, here's some very weird behaviour from good ol' Netscape. Anyone able to help me out? There is a frameset with frames named "top", "body", "right" and "bottom". This frameset is on a domain, which we'll call marmalade.com. One of the frames loaded is on what we'll call jammaking.com (These two domains are on the same machine). It loads in the "main" frame without problems. However, it has some links in that have a target attriubute of "right". On my machine, Windows XP, this works as expected in Internet Explorer (6.0) and Mozilla (1.0), but in Netscape (4.75), it opens in a new window. Over on jammaker.com, the same setup behaves as expected, when a similar frameset is on jammaker.com, not marmalade.com. However, on a Windows 2000 machine, the same link does nothing at all in Netscape, while still behaving as expected in IE (Mozilla is not installed on that machine). No new window, no loading in the "right" frame, nothing. Just an hourglass for about 2 seconds and then back to the normal pointer. Any ideas? Cheers, Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com +353-1-2365705 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Wed Jul 24 05:14:01 2002 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Wed Jul 24 05:14:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Frame, Target, Different Domains Message-ID: >There is a frameset with frames named "top", "body", "right" and "bottom". Don't EVER use 'top' as a frame name, since it's reserved in JavaScript and the browser may behave strangely. I don't know whether this is the problem you're experiencing, but do yourself a favour and use another name. I'm not very happen with 'body' either, but as far as I know this is not explicitly forbidden. >This frameset is on a domain, which we'll call marmalade.com. One of the >frames loaded is on what we'll call jammaking.com (These two domains are on >the same machine). What machine they're on doesn't matter. It seems to be a question of domains. >It loads in the "main" frame without problems. However, it has some links >in that have a target attriubute of "right". > >On my machine, Windows XP, this works as expected in Internet Explorer >(6.0) and Mozilla (1.0), but in Netscape (4.75), it opens in a new window. Opening a new window means that the browser doesn't recognize the name as one of an already opened frame. (I suppose you knew this already). I'm not sure what the bug is. This is with normal links, right? No fancy JavaScripts that give errors because they're trying to change pages from another server (domain). Try using different names for the frames, all names you use now may have a special meaning. Not sure if this helps, but it's the first thing I'd try. If that doesn't help I need to see the page (URL please, *no* attachments). ppk _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Wed Jul 24 05:24:01 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Wed Jul 24 05:24:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Frame, Target, Different Domains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724112027.027d0f00@216.6.8.1> At 10:13 24/07/2002 +0000, Peter-Paul Koch wrote: >>There is a frameset with frames named "top", "body", "right" and "bottom". > >Don't EVER use 'top' as a frame name, since it's reserved in JavaScript and >the browser may behave strangely. I don't know whether this is the problem >you're experiencing, but do yourself a favour and use another name. I'm not >very happen with 'body' either, but as far as I know this is not explicitly >forbidden. OK, I'll try changing those. The domain referred to as jammaking.com has been using these names for some years now without trouble, though? >>It loads in the "main" frame without problems. However, it has some links >>in that have a target attriubute of "right". >> >>On my machine, Windows XP, this works as expected in Internet Explorer >>(6.0) and Mozilla (1.0), but in Netscape (4.75), it opens in a new window. > >Opening a new window means that the browser doesn't recognize the name as >one of an already opened frame. (I suppose you knew this already). Yep. >I'm not sure what the bug is. This is with normal links, right? No fancy >JavaScripts that give errors because they're trying to change pages from >another server (domain). No, plain ordinary A HREFs. >Try using different names for the frames, all names you use now may have a >special meaning. Not sure if this helps, but it's the first thing I'd try. OK, good place to start. >If that doesn't help I need to see the page (URL please, *no* attachments). Can't show, I'm afraid - under a non-disclosure until things are completed. Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com +353-1-2365705 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From danfascia at totalise.co.uk Wed Jul 24 06:00:01 2002 From: danfascia at totalise.co.uk (Daniel Fascia) Date: Wed Jul 24 06:00:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] RE: [thelist][OT] Alcohol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <41WV2JI694PKTPSRQPJEFRN6VRZX.3d3e882d@DANFASCIA-21> >> Is teetotalarianism possible if one wishes to >> be a normal, social member of the Web >> development / Cpt Sci community? LOL, you should try being a doctor if you think web ziners are big names in the booze stakes! From tim at pollenation.net Wed Jul 24 06:07:01 2002 From: tim at pollenation.net (Tim Parkin) Date: Wed Jul 24 06:07:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: <20020724100023.59652.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c23304$12f35d60$0200a8c0@henry> James Newbery said on the 24 July 2002 11:00 >The RNIB are trying to mitigate for >inaccessible design by less informed web authors. Can you explain what you mean by 'less informed web authors', because it sounds like you're saying people who use tables for layout are 'less informed' which is exactly the sort of cliquey, backslapping and holier-than-thou attitude of the tableless layout community that really rankles and is going to put a lot of 'well informed' web authors off listening. Please explain why using tables means 'less informed'. Or rather don't bother as enough bandwidth has been wasted on the subject already. Tim Parkin Ps if I've understood wrongly then accept apologies From jamesnewbery at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 24 06:25:01 2002 From: jamesnewbery at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Newbery?=) Date: Wed Jul 24 06:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: <001c01c23304$12f35d60$0200a8c0@henry> Message-ID: <20020724112455.3434.qmail@web12605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tim Parkin wrote: > Can you explain what you mean by 'less informed web > authors', because it > sounds like you're saying people who use tables for > layout are 'less > informed' which is exactly the sort of cliquey, > backslapping and > holier-than-thou attitude of the tableless layout > community that really > rankles and is going to put a lot of 'well informed' > web authors off > listening. > > Please explain why using tables means 'less > informed'. Or rather don't > bother as enough bandwidth has been wasted on the > subject already. We were actually talking about alt attributes on images, to explain the content of images to those who, for whatever reason, would not be able to see the image itself. Nothing to do with tableless design. What I meant by 'less informed' was simply developers, web editors - whoever creates content for the web in fact, that don't employ alt attributes because they don't know about them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From mrg at members.evolt.org Wed Jul 24 07:04:01 2002 From: mrg at members.evolt.org (matt g) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:04:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: ".jeff" > there is a benefit to root relative, or leading slash, paths. if you change > your sites document structure, but images, scripts, and stylesheets are all > still in the same folders you won't have to go change the paths to get them > all working again as root relative paths are not in anyway relative to the > calling document's location from the root of the site. Bonus feature: It also makes life easier if you are using included files from a different level of the directory. In this case... www.domain.com/index_which_includes_nav.html www.domain.com/pages/file_which_includes_nav.html www.domain.com/includes/nav.html ...you would want/need to use root relative hrefs and srcs in the "nav" file, so that they will work, no matter where in the directory they are being called from... Home File matt g From mark at mountain.ch Wed Jul 24 07:09:01 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:09:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: <006f01c232bc$ba4cf000$3408a8c0@DMF59> Message-ID: > ./images > > instead of, > > /images Paths using dots can also be useful for checking pages and sites without using a web server. (Flat HTML) sites using relative paths can be run directly in a browser, whereas ones using absolute paths can't. Regards Mark Howells From ashiel at sportsinteraction.com Wed Jul 24 07:14:02 2002 From: ashiel at sportsinteraction.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:14:02 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Frame, Target, Different Domains In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724112027.027d0f00@216.6.8.1> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724130915.027f6f30@216.6.8.1> Problem solved... see below. At 11:22 24/07/2002 +0100, Drew Shiel wrote: >At 10:13 24/07/2002 +0000, Peter-Paul Koch wrote: >>>There is a frameset with frames named "top", "body", "right" and "bottom". >> >>Don't EVER use 'top' as a frame name, since it's reserved in JavaScript and >>the browser may behave strangely. I don't know whether this is the problem >>you're experiencing, but do yourself a favour and use another name. I'm not >>very happen with 'body' either, but as far as I know this is not explicitly >>forbidden. > > OK, I'll try changing those. The domain referred to as jammaking.com has >been using these names for some years now without trouble, though? Changed the names to "strange", "charm", "pratchett" and "gaiman"; this made not one whit of difference. >>Try using different names for the frames, all names you use now may have a >>special meaning. Not sure if this helps, but it's the first thing I'd try. > > OK, good place to start. What eventually worked was writing things so that instead of calling the absolute URL of the frames displayed, it calls a relative path. Since both domains are on the same machine, this could be done. I don't know what would happen were the two domains on different machines, but until I have to deal with that, problem sorted. Cheers! Drew. Drew Shiel webmaster at swiftpay.com +353-1-2365705 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Swiftpay -- The best way to pay online -- http://www.swiftpay.com From mark at mountain.ch Wed Jul 24 07:18:01 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:18:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Netscape, Frame, Target, Different Domains In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724105248.027a06c8@216.6.8.1> Message-ID: > However, on a Windows 2000 machine, the same link does nothing at all in > Netscape, while still behaving as expected in IE (Mozilla is not installed > on that machine). No new window, no loading in the "right" frame, nothing. > Just an hourglass for about 2 seconds and then back to the normal pointer. Just a suggestion -- if this problem occurs again, make sure you only have one frameset open in the browser. By having the same frameset open in two windows from the same browser, your link may be opening in the other, hidden, window. Regards Mark Howells From sub at shanx.com Wed Jul 24 07:19:01 2002 From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:19:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004101c2330c$330c3f60$0200a8c0@SHASHANK> | > there is a benefit to root relative, or leading slash, | paths. if you I guess this one I am aware of, but wanted to ask of speed in loading (perhaps from some spiffy browser caching that I did not think of). Anyway, I assume these two are effectively the same: ./ And / Both are root-relative? _Any_ advantage of one over the other? Thanks, S. From sub at shanx.com Wed Jul 24 07:19:09 2002 From: sub at shanx.com (Shashank Tripathi) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:19:09 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201c2330c$444657c0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK> | Paths using dots can also be useful for checking pages | and sites without using a web server. (Flat HTML) sites | using relative paths can be run directly in a browser, | whereas ones using absolute paths can't. Thanks Mark, by dots did you mean "../../" kind of stuff? Or "./" as well? The two dots makes life a little too complicated on the webserver side for me. And the single dot doesn't work on the filesystem. So I guess "/" is still the best? Cheers Shanx From mark at mountain.ch Wed Jul 24 07:31:00 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:31:00 2002 Subject: [thelist] dot_slash vs slash for relative reference.. In-Reply-To: <004201c2330c$444657c0$0200a8c0@SHASHANK> Message-ID: > Thanks Mark, by dots did you mean "../../" kind of stuff? Or "./" as > well? ../../ > The two dots makes life a little too complicated on the webserver side > for me. And the single dot doesn't work on the filesystem. So I guess > "/" is still the best? Single dot reference means "in the same directory as the calling file". Single slash -- with no dots -- means starting from the web root. The single dot reference will work on a local file system, but perhaps not in the way you had expected. Example ---------- HTML file is at Image file called as src="./help.gif" (with dot) is at Image file called as src="/help.gif" (without dot) is at Regards Mark Howells From luomat at peak.org Wed Jul 24 07:42:01 2002 From: luomat at peak.org (Tim Luoma) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:42:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] JS help: including a file as footer Message-ID: <3D3EA07D.9000501@peak.org> I am working with a website that does not have SSI or PHP (I call it the dark ages). Rather than hard-code in the footer to every single page, I would like to have it maintained in a separate file (let's call it, oh I don't know, "footer.html") Now what I would like to do is somethine like this Now I don't know jack 'bout JavaScript, and haven't had any luck trying to find any good examples of how to have 'footer.js' read the contents of 'footer.html' Any help appreciated TjL From bl at catholic.org Wed Jul 24 07:58:01 2002 From: bl at catholic.org (bl at catholic.org) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:58:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] (no subject) Message-ID: <51833.212.250.238.87.1027515433.squirrel@webmail.catholic.org> Hi, I'm researching web standards for my postgrad course, and wondered if you could recommend any standards-compliant web sites that are in commercial operation (other than those set up deliberately to discuss/ advance the web standards movement). If you mail off list, I'll summarise back. thank you. bob ----------------------------------------- This email was sent using FREE Catholic Online Webmail. Please tell your family, friends and children about COL Webmail! http://webmail.catholic.org/ From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Wed Jul 24 07:58:07 2002 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:58:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] JS help: including a file as footer Message-ID: >I am working with a website that does not have SSI or PHP (I call it the >dark ages). > >Rather than hard-code in the footer to every single page, I would like to >have it maintained in a separate file (let's call it, oh I don't >know, "footer.html") > >Now what I would like to do is somethine like this > > > > > > >Now I don't know jack 'bout JavaScript, and haven't had any luck trying to >find any good examples of how to have 'footer.js' read the contents of >'footer.html' It can't. The best you can do is document.write('Navigation Page'); or something like that. ppk _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From webguy at mail.rit.edu Wed Jul 24 07:58:19 2002 From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing) Date: Wed Jul 24 07:58:19 2002 Subject: [thelist] With ASP's FileSystem Object, tell if directory is empty. In-Reply-To: <000701c232cd$ac478d10$b769fea9@max1> Message-ID: Excellent smithers. Chris Blessing webguy at mail.rit.edu http://www.330i.net > It does work when using "." and "..". > For Example: > fs.OpenTextFile(server.mappath("..\dir\dir\file.txt") > > Craig. > > > I believe you can use relative pathing within the server.mappath() > function > > but I cannot recall 100% since I haven't tried it myself. :) > > > > Chris Blessing > > webguy at mail.rit.edu > > http://www.330i.net From hershelr at netvision.net.il Wed Jul 24 08:03:01 2002 From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:03:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] JS help: including a file as footer References: <3D3EA07D.9000501@peak.org> Message-ID: <026501c2331b$c72fd710$0101c80a@hershel> > Now I don't know jack 'bout JavaScript, and haven't had any luck trying > to find any good examples of how to have 'footer.js' read the contents > of 'footer.html' A simple answer I don't have. The complex answers are: 1 Check out: http://www.dansteinman.com/dynduo/en/source.html This is a page explaining one method of loading an external file into an inline
. This is definitely the first place to look and you well find your answer there and that's it. Dan's site is however, dated and may not work for current browsers. 2 You could put the code of footer.htm directly into footer.js as a JS variable and then write it to a
called footer. You then just put the
called footer at the bottom of your document. When writing to the div you will not affect the rest of the document. This method has drawbacks, however. 3 It is possible to load an external file into a
in a document via JS, but it's complex. Dan Steinman also has a page (or 2) on how do to this. His methods are also in use in the current DynAPI 2 available from sourceforge. The main drawback of this method is that it's complicated and probably overkill. I write this, however, because there are those evolters out there who don't believe it can be done. :) Hershel From mark at mountain.ch Wed Jul 24 08:06:01 2002 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:06:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] JS help: including a file as footer In-Reply-To: <3D3EA07D.9000501@peak.org> Message-ID: > Now I don't know jack 'bout JavaScript, and haven't had any luck trying > to find any good examples of how to have 'footer.js' read the contents > of 'footer.html' I toyed with this a few years ago and found that the quickest (and very much dirtiest) way was to use document.write in the footer.js file to write the footer of the page. It's slow, inaccessible and doesn't validate (and that's before we get onto search engine accessibility and browsers without Javascript). Is there a reason why you can't switch to alternative web server software, such as Apache? Regards Mark Howells From crsaila at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 24 08:11:01 2002 From: crsaila at yahoo.ca (Craig Saila) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:11:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] JS help: including a file as footer References: <3D3EA07D.9000501@peak.org> Message-ID: <3D3EA74B.90205@yahoo.ca> Tim Luoma wrote: > Now I don't know jack 'bout JavaScript, and haven't had any luck trying > to find any good examples of how to have 'footer.js' read the contents > of 'footer.html' Depending on the site's target browser audience (i.e., fifth generation and higher), you may want to consider building it using the W3C's DOM. Scott Andrew Le Pera has a good tutorial on this: One big catch with using the JavaScript call is that anyone with a browser that doesn't support it (which is about 10% of the browsers out there) won't see the footer. -- Cheers, Craig Saila ------------------------------------------ craig at saila.com : http://www.saila.com/ ------------------------------------------ From sfores at members.evolt.org Wed Jul 24 08:25:01 2002 From: sfores at members.evolt.org (Shoshannah Forbes) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:25:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] alt tags In-Reply-To: <20020723172929.84486.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6857D523-9ED9-11D6-9668-003065C0167C@members.evolt.org> IE behavior is non-standard. You should use the title attribute instead. Do you want to have alt in you images for accessibility, but you don't want the rest of the users to get a tooltip if they are using ie? Then add an empty title to the image, similar to this: your alt text here On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 08:29 PM, Tom Dell'Aringa wrote: > Hey all, > > In IE the alt tag shows up as a title. Is this standard across > browsers? I want to say somebody said something about the right > click. What if you would need to use like 30-40 characters in your > alt text - but the title box that pops up obscures something else? > For non-impaired users, that is quite annoying. > > Tom From sfores at members.evolt.org Wed Jul 24 08:25:07 2002 From: sfores at members.evolt.org (Shoshannah Forbes) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:25:07 2002 Subject: [thelist] Mac graphics software? In-Reply-To: <3D3D9492.73C0AE3A@nlcnet.org> Message-ID: <54C8767E-9EDA-11D6-9668-003065C0167C@members.evolt.org> Well, you do have the Mac version of Photoshop or corel photo paint :-) There is also graphic converter (shareware) from http://lemkesoft.com/us_index.html which is great. Some more options: http://www.kepmad.com/ http://www.imageviewer.com/ On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 08:38 PM, Benjamin C. Varadi wrote: > Are there any recommended free/functional demo products out there for > download comparable to Photoshop/Imageready or Jasc's Paint Shop Pro? From sfores at members.evolt.org Wed Jul 24 08:25:19 2002 From: sfores at members.evolt.org (Shoshannah Forbes) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:25:19 2002 Subject: [thelist] vector world map In-Reply-To: <200207231752.g6NHqPNf031878@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <06133B3C-9EDC-11D6-9668-003065C0167C@members.evolt.org> Try: http://dgl.microsoft.com/ On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 08:52 PM, aardvark wrote: > > so, anyone know a place i can grab vector world maps? i don't > need the countries, just outlines of the continents... From jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk Wed Jul 24 08:25:26 2002 From: jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk (Jon Haworth) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:25:26 2002 Subject: [thelist] Using php/mysql to retrieve URL's Message-ID: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3F010C4496@BOOTROS> Hi John, > > > > alt=" > > width=" > > height=" /> > > > > PHP has a very cool function, GetImageSize > (http://www.php.net/getimagesize/ . > This will save you from storing the width/height in the db... Very true, and a shiny and righteous function it is. I just feel that if you're going to all the trouble of storing image info in a db, you might as well put the size in there - you may not be using PHP forever, or you may want to access this image store from another language... Cheers Jon From luomat at peak.org Wed Jul 24 08:29:01 2002 From: luomat at peak.org (Tim Luoma) Date: Wed Jul 24 08:29:01 2002 Subject: [thelist] Re: JS help: including a file as footer References: <3D3EA07D.9000501@peak.org> <3D3EA74B.90205@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <3D3EAB65.9020008@peak.org> Mark Howells wrote: > I toyed with this a few years ago and found that the quickest (and > very much dirtiest) way was to use document.write in the footer.js > file to write the footer of the page. It's slow, inaccessible and > doesn't validate Well it would validate because the JS would be in an external file, but you're right about this being hackish (and, in fact, what I'm doing already ;-) > (and that's before we get onto search engine > accessibility and browsers without Javascript). Well that's why there would be a link to the footer page in the
 
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