Hi Carl, I've read through the other replies so far and I haven't seen anyone comment yet on your question of whether this could be db specific. I usually play in Oracle. I don't use the JOIN keywords either. I've got the 'Oracle - The Complete Reference' book at my desk ... and thumbing through and checking the index under 'JOIN' I don't see any examples that use the JOIN keywords. Now, it's a big book - I may have missed them - but unless someone else chimes in - it's looking to me like they aren't generally used with Oracle. RonL. -----Original Message----- From: Carl J Meyer [mailto:cjmeyer at npcc.net] I've used SQL for years in DB/web applications, and never have I ever used any of the JOIN keywords (INNER,OUTER,LEFT,RIGHT,JOIN,etc).