I'm not up on each detail that each realworld browser prefers which is different from the W3C's prescription of what they should instead eventually prefer. I know that the validator will cite "impure" when it sees EMBED, so I know it will fail the test regardless. If you've got a specific bit of markup debate you'd like to share with the designers, then please do use that feedback form on the main pages, thanks. jd John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!) Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/ Technical daily diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd