Not to hijack the original thread; adding my comments to a new one. > Not sure what was hijacked, not on the other list anymore... I share your feelings. > I agree, but with a bit of work you can make some editors produce half > decent code, fckEditor was installed on this site and it validates > fairly well, (not perfectly): I have not observed but i think it is possibly done via a filter function that cleans up the irrelevant markup. Regarding the opera-support. Yes, the ball is on their side. And, it's true that it is even impossible to get the caret position of a textarea in opera, let alone wysiwyg edit mode. Another point of discussion may be the suitability and necessity of wysiwyg for a web page. Or to state in other words, will it be better to use textareas along with BBCode and leave the template-management and wysiwyg stuff to application packages like contribute, as Chris has suggested. Cleaning out the mess a browser produces is kinda overkill, imho. It is impossible for sure to support all (even modern but non-mozilla-based) browsers, unless they provide an API of some sort. OTOH, an application will create the proper markup no matter what. And the markup it produces will (ideally) be browser-independent. So which one do you think is the way to go? Anyway, I'll play with my DOM-based editor thingy for fun and learning. May be I come up with something that no-one has tried and become a millionaire :P Just kidding. But if you don't try anything new, then you don't learn anything. isn't it? cheers, Volkan.