From harvester at lists.evolt.org  Mon Apr  3 00:00:23 2006
From: harvester at lists.evolt.org (harvester at lists.evolt.org)
Date: 3 Apr 2006 00:00:23 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Tip Harvest for the Week of Monday Mar 27, 2006
Message-ID: <20060403050023.26309.qmail@tempest.evolt.org>


The tip harvest for the Week of Monday Mar 27, 2006 has been added
to the lists.evolt.org site.  Get it at:

   http://lists.evolt.org/harvest/show.cgi?w=20060327

Week at a glance listing at:

   http://lists.evolt.org/harvest/week.cgi?w=20060327


Harvest Summary
---------------

Number of messages: 206
Number of tips    : 4

Tip Authors
-----------

bird (1)
Christian Heilmann (1)
John Brooking (1)
kasimir-k (1)

Tip Types
---------

example domain names (1)
Isolating code bugs (1)
JavaScript (1)
photoshop (1)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What: Tips are how a list subscriber "pays" for making an off-topic post
      to the list (see List Info for more information).  Of course, this
      does not make off-topic posts acceptable. :)

How : You include a tip in your posting by using the [tip]...[/tip] tag
      (replace the square brackets with angle brackets).  The tip tag takes
      the optional attributes of 'type' and 'author'.



From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Mon Apr  3 03:07:10 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:07:10 +0100
Subject: [thelist] hidden span breaks form value?
In-Reply-To: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259E9@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
References: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259E9@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
Message-ID: <610592c90604030107y55b9fbe8y5468d8a86631f405@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/04/06, Canfield, Joel <JCanfield at pacadvantage.org> wrote:
>
>        <input type="radio" name="PrimaryIssue" id="Data_Entry_Error"
> value="Data_Entry_Error" onclick="toggleVis('deerror',this);" />


Well, what does the toggleVis function do exactly?  On the other radio
buttons, you're passing it a string, but this time, your passing it the
whole input element.

-- LK


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 04:37:17 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:37:17 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604022156x7a080fb3h65f71b1794479283@mail.gmail.com>
References: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net>
	<200604020022.55554.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<442F941E.6000403@zstudio.co.uk>
	<dfc81b090604022156x7a080fb3h65f71b1794479283@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604030237q4d37bb1dkc3b314b14091f4d8@mail.gmail.com>

> > if (document.all) {
>
> Rumor has it that new versions of Firefox support document.all syntax.
> Though I'm not sure.
> Anyway, why should you write vendor-specific css since most of the modern
> browsers display almost identical if you treat them good enough.

document.all is supported by Mozilla but only in part:
http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2005/08/07/421798.aspx
http://mozillanews.org/?article_date=2004-07-23+18-06-59 (aahhhrghh
animated favicon!!!)

The only bullet proof way seems to be conditional comments:

<script type="text/javascript">isIE=false</script>
<!--[if IE]>
<script type="text/javascript">isIE=true</script>
<![endif]-->

and then check for isIE

if(isIE){alert('CSS transition filters, coloured scrollbars, tigers,
elephants, yay!');}

Dirty mixing of structure and behaviour though. The other suggestion
of picking one of the more obscure MSIE only objects makes more sense,
but then again browser sniffing doesn't make much sense anyways.

HTH
Chris

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Mon Apr  3 04:38:19 2006
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:38:19 +0200
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <005b01c656ae$2f37c480$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<98C4FC06-76D9-49E3-8B3A-8B7AB235D0E2@loudjoy.com>
	<005b01c656ae$2f37c480$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
Message-ID: <200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>

On Monday 03 April 2006 01:35, Daryl Brown wrote:
> benefits: 95% install on web connected PC's around the world, no
> proprietary player required,
Firstly, Flash IS proprietary software that you are requiring.

Secondly, I don't know how they find 95% Flash 7 players on a survey... or 89% 
Java penetration in the same survey - that's plain crazy. 

Anyone dealing with customers knows that you have to ask them whether they 
click a blue 'i' to open their internet program because they have no idea at 
all what they are using, and don't even know what a browser is. 
So I figure the second question on the flash penetration survey:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/survey/npd_survey/2_info.html
is pretty sure to weed-out any non-technical users. 

I have about 10 computers I manage here, each have 2 or 3 browsers in use, 
being Opera, Firefox and Konqueror . None of those 25 browsers have Flash 8, 
and maybe 3 have Flash 7. All of the computers have a stand-alone media 
player.
The reason for that is that it is only Internet Explorer that constantly bugs 
you with alerts if Flash is not installed - other browsers just display a 
yellow field where the Flash was embedded.
So this means much less irritating advertising on the internet.

OK, I'm probably that 5% left over in the survey. I guess that is why they 
don't claim 100% penetration.

Anyway, I'm not saying you should not use your embedded flash players, by all 
means do, but don't suppose that everyone has chosen to install or upgrade to 
that particular plugin, and can actually see the content.
You can simply offer a link under the flash movie pointing to the mpeg file 
"Open in stand alone player". 
That way people can also download the movie, and they have a choice of which 
viewer they would like to use. 

Ok, rant over.

Richard.

<tip>
Need to do remote user administration often, from different locations?
vnc repeater lets you send the client a small pre-configured file they click 
to connect to you.
You host the repeater on a server,and both client and operator can be behind a 
nat firewall, without configuring anything.
http://ultravnc.sourceforge.net/addons/repeater.html
</tip>






From rich at richpoints.com  Mon Apr  3 07:43:42 2006
From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 06:43:42 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse them
Message-ID: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>

Hi,
I just moved this site to a new host, http://clubsauce.com .  When I 
browse the site I keep getting asked if I want to download and save the 
pages I'm browsing to.  I don't know why this is happening.

I'm using SSI on this site and have the .htaccess file configured as follows

AddType text/html                       .html .htm
AddType text/x-server-parsed-html       .shtml .sht


How can I fix this?

thanks
Rich


From ian at zstudio.co.uk  Mon Apr  3 08:06:57 2006
From: ian at zstudio.co.uk (Ian Anderson)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:06:57 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604030237q4d37bb1dkc3b314b14091f4d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net>	<200604020022.55554.richard.bennett@skynet.be>	<442F941E.6000403@zstudio.co.uk>	<dfc81b090604022156x7a080fb3h65f71b1794479283@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604030237q4d37bb1dkc3b314b14091f4d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44311DF1.6050703@zstudio.co.uk>

Christian Heilmann wrote:

> document.all is supported by Mozilla but only in part:
> http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2005/08/07/421798.aspx
> http://mozillanews.org/?article_date=2004-07-23+18-06-59 (aahhhrghh
> animated favicon!!!)

Holy cow. Luckily,

"So Firefox supports document.all, but says it doesn't. That means it 
can evaluate document.all['elementName'], but alert(document.all) shows 
false."

Sweet mother of moses, what a palaver.

Cheers

Ian


-- 
_________________________________________________
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net



From dan at virtuawebtech.co.uk  Mon Apr  3 08:09:28 2006
From: dan at virtuawebtech.co.uk (Dan Parry)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:09:28 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse
	them
In-Reply-To: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
Message-ID: <20060403130931.50ECF56064A@virtuawebtech.co.uk>

The file I downloaded doesn't appear to have any extension at all... If this
is the case there is the problem :)

HTH

Dan

-----------------------------------------------------
Dan Parry
Senior Developer
Virtua Webtech Ltd
http://www.virtuawebtech.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Rich Points
Sent: 03 April 2006 13:44
To: thelist
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse them

Hi,
I just moved this site to a new host, http://clubsauce.com .  When I 
browse the site I keep getting asked if I want to download and save the 
pages I'm browsing to.  I don't know why this is happening.

I'm using SSI on this site and have the .htaccess file configured as follows

AddType text/html                       .html .htm
AddType text/x-server-parsed-html       .shtml .sht


How can I fix this?

thanks
Rich
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester 
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

__________ NOD32 1.1454 (20060321) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




From rich at richpoints.com  Mon Apr  3 08:20:18 2006
From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:20:18 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse
 them
In-Reply-To: <20060403130931.50ECF56064A@virtuawebtech.co.uk>
References: <20060403130931.50ECF56064A@virtuawebtech.co.uk>
Message-ID: <44312112.1010701@richpoints.com>

It should have a .shtml file extension, you will get the same thing if 
you go to http://clubsauce.com/index.shtml

Also here are all the lines for the SSI in my .htaccess

RewriteEngine On
RewriteBase /
Options +Includes
AddType text/html .html .htm
AddType text/x-server-parsed-html .shtml .sht


Thanks
Rich

Dan Parry wrote:

>The file I downloaded doesn't appear to have any extension at all... If this
>is the case there is the problem :)
>
>HTH
>
>Dan
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>Dan Parry
>Senior Developer
>Virtua Webtech Ltd
>http://www.virtuawebtech.co.uk
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
>[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Rich Points
>Sent: 03 April 2006 13:44
>To: thelist
>Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse them
>
>Hi,
>I just moved this site to a new host, http://clubsauce.com .  When I 
>browse the site I keep getting asked if I want to download and save the 
>pages I'm browsing to.  I don't know why this is happening.
>
>I'm using SSI on this site and have the .htaccess file configured as follows
>
>AddType text/html                       .html .htm
>AddType text/x-server-parsed-html       .shtml .sht
>
>
>How can I fix this?
>
>thanks
>Rich
>  
>


From morrison.ben at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 08:25:25 2006
From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:25:25 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse
	them
In-Reply-To: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
References: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
Message-ID: <6073aef90604030625u20225f66v42da6965027be692@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/3/06, Rich Points <rich at richpoints.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I just moved this site to a new host, http://clubsauce.com .  When I
> browse the site I keep getting asked if I want to download and save the
> pages I'm browsing to.  I don't know why this is happening.
>
> I'm using SSI on this site and have the .htaccess file configured as follows
>
> AddType text/html                       .html .htm
> AddType text/x-server-parsed-html       .shtml .sht

> How can I fix this?

So it works in Explorer, but firefox asks for you to save/open it.

My guess would be that this is the main problem with using XHTML and
IE6 does not support application/xhtml+xml

Although i know nothing of server settings.

Ben


From rich at richpoints.com  Mon Apr  3 08:39:16 2006
From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:39:16 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages...SOVED
In-Reply-To: <6073aef90604030625u20225f66v42da6965027be692@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
	<6073aef90604030625u20225f66v42da6965027be692@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44312584.7070103@richpoints.com>

I just took those lines out of my .htaccess file and now it's working  :-)

Thanks to those who looked at it

Rich


From misterhaan at track7.org  Mon Apr  3 08:43:39 2006
From: misterhaan at track7.org (misterhaan)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:43:39 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Browser wants to download pages rather than browse
 them
In-Reply-To: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
References: <4431187E.3050207@richpoints.com>
Message-ID: <4431268B.3010000@track7.org>

When I browse to your site with Firefox I get a download window saying 
the file is a text/x-server-parsed-html, which means that is what the 
server is sending in the Content-Type header.  You might need to bug the 
host to get them to send something more appropriate (like text/html), 
unless there's a way to specify the header using SSI.

Rich Points wrote:
> Hi,
> I just moved this site to a new host, http://clubsauce.com .  When I 
> browse the site I keep getting asked if I want to download and save the 
> pages I'm browsing to.


From ccollins at loudjoy.com  Mon Apr  3 08:50:26 2006
From: ccollins at loudjoy.com (Christy Collins)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:50:26 -0400
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<98C4FC06-76D9-49E3-8B3A-8B7AB235D0E2@loudjoy.com>
	<005b01c656ae$2f37c480$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <F7759874-D912-4F82-A511-11CE49A96BB7@loudjoy.com>

Is an mpeg file viewable in any stand alone player?  Mac or PC?

-Christy

On Apr 3, 2006, at 5:38 AM, Richard Bennett wrote:

> You can simply offer a link under the flash movie pointing to the  
> mpeg file
> "Open in stand alone player".
> That way people can also download the movie, and they have a choice  
> of which
> viewer they would like to use.



From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Mon Apr  3 10:03:49 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:03:49 -0700
Subject: [thelist] hidden span breaks form value?
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259EF@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> On 01/04/06, Canfield, Joel <JCanfield at pacadvantage.org> wrote:
> >        <input type="radio" name="PrimaryIssue" id="Data_Entry_Error"
> > value="Data_Entry_Error" onclick="toggleVis('deerror',this);" />
> 
> Well, what does the toggleVis function do exactly?  On the other radio
> buttons, you're passing it a string, but this time, your 
> passing it the whole input element.

Here's toggleVis in its entirety:

        function toggleVis(toggleID,clickedID)
        {
                if (clickedID.checked == true)
                {
 
document.getElementById(toggleID).style.visibility = "visible";
                } else {
 
document.getElementById(toggleID).style.visibility = "hidden";
                }
        }

This use of toggleVis, just above the one in question, works as
expected, using 'this':

    <input type="radio" name="IssueType" id="Problem" value="Problem"
onclick="toggleVis('impactdiv','Project');" /> Problem 
    <input type="radio" name="IssueType" id="Request" value="Request"
class="rdospace" checked onclick="toggleVis('impactdiv','Project');" />
Request 
    <input type="radio" name="IssueType" id="Project" value="Project"
class="rdospace" onclick="toggleVis('impactdiv',this);" /> Project</p>

which is why I suspect something about the hidden span, but can't find
anything to confirm or explain.

thanks

joel


From mrmazda at ij.net  Mon Apr  3 10:07:25 2006
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:07:25 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net>
References: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net>
Message-ID: <44313A2D.20709@ij.net>

On 06/04/01 16:47 Felix Miata apparently typed:

> My understanding of JS is next to 0, so every time I want to do the
> simplest thing I haven't done before I have to go struggle through some
> tutorial, this time at http://www.quirksmode.org/. Again, I'm getting
> nowhere with something that seems it should be simple. I just want to
> throw an alert based upon whether the browser is really IE or any other
> browser. It seems object detection is the way to go, but I'm not finding
> a suitable object to detect. Someone suggested window.ActiveXControl but
> NAICT it seems that that is an option that can be disabled and so
> wouldn't be suitable. Can anyone help?

FWIW, the URL in my .sig below is the page for which I asked. Opening it
with IE should make evident why I only want the event to occur if the
visitor is really using IE and not some impostor like Opera.

The current possibly too simple solution actually came from a discussion
on irc://moznet/js and will most likely need revision when IE7 goes GA,
and that presumes I won't change my mind about the whole idea before
that happens.

Comments welcome, particularly if you have ideas about who you think the
target audience for the page is. What actually triggered my idea for it
in the first place is the core of
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/css/colstyle.css which as yet I use only on 4
pages.
-- 
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them."			Ephesians 5:11 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth


From mwarden at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 10:39:19 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:39:19 -0400
Subject: [thelist] hidden span breaks form value?
In-Reply-To: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259EF@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
References: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259EF@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
Message-ID: <443141A7.1000809@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Canfield, Joel wrote:
>>On 01/04/06, Canfield, Joel <JCanfield at pacadvantage.org> wrote:
>>
>>>       <input type="radio" name="PrimaryIssue" id="Data_Entry_Error"
>>>value="Data_Entry_Error" onclick="toggleVis('deerror',this);" />
>>
>>Well, what does the toggleVis function do exactly?  On the other radio
>>buttons, you're passing it a string, but this time, your 
>>passing it the whole input element.
> 
> 
> Here's toggleVis in its entirety:
> 
>         function toggleVis(toggleID,clickedID)
>         {
>                 if (clickedID.checked == true)

clickedID is a string. This should be:

if (document.getElementById(clickedID) &&
document.getElementById(clickedID).checked == true)

>     <input type="radio" name="IssueType" id="Project" value="Project"
> class="rdospace" onclick="toggleVis('impactdiv',this);" /> Project</p>

Well, in this one you are passing the object. All the other times you're
calling toggleVis you're passing the ID. I don't remember your original
issue, but could that be causing it?

- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Mon Apr  3 10:44:31 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:44:31 -0700
Subject: [thelist] hidden span breaks form value?
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF73008017259F3@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> >     <input type="radio" name="IssueType" id="Project" 
> value="Project"
> > class="rdospace" onclick="toggleVis('impactdiv',this);" /> 
> Project</p>
> 
> Well, in this one you are passing the object. All the other 
> times you're
> calling toggleVis you're passing the ID. I don't remember 
> your original
> issue, but could that be causing it?

This is the instance that's working. Another instance, followed by a
hidden span, is failing. I'll investigate the difference between
handling the object vs. passing a string, but I still suspect it's where
they're different that it's breaking.

joel


From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Mon Apr  3 10:45:23 2006
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:45:23 +0200
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <F7759874-D912-4F82-A511-11CE49A96BB7@loudjoy.com>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<F7759874-D912-4F82-A511-11CE49A96BB7@loudjoy.com>
Message-ID: <200604031745.23177.richard.bennett@skynet.be>

On Monday 03 April 2006 15:50, Christy Collins wrote:
> Is an mpeg file viewable in any stand alone player? ?Mac or PC?

Not sure about 'any', but i have always been able to play them without 
problems, which I cannot say for .mov, .avi, .wmv, .swf and others.

The main difference is that mpeg videos are downloaded, and then played (this 
sometimes happens in the browser if you have a plugin installed) while other 
formats will stream (they start playing when part of the file has been 
buffered), but are not so portable, across platforms or browsers.

http://www.w3schools.com/media/media_videoformats.asp

If you can, I would use whatever format you prefer, and then offer mpeg as an 
additional option for users to download if your solution doesn't work for 
them.

Cheers,

Richard.
 


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 11:09:35 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:09:35 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <44313A2D.20709@ij.net>
References: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net> <44313A2D.20709@ij.net>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604030909hcfba133l3afb25d045b3c3a@mail.gmail.com>

> FWIW, the URL in my .sig below is the page for which I asked. Opening it
> with IE should make evident why I only want the event to occur if the
> visitor is really using IE and not some impostor like Opera.

http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/js/iebad.js is soo 1990ies. What about users
who cannot change their browser as their company dictates the IT
environment? A practice like this is as arrogant and obtrusive as a
"only for MSIE and 1024x768 resolution" message.


From Conleyj at kubota-kma.com  Mon Apr  3 11:15:10 2006
From: Conleyj at kubota-kma.com (James Conley)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:15:10 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
Message-ID: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853242B@STATION.kubota-kma.com>

As it currently stands you could just as well write the words "I hate
IE. If you are using IE then go away" and it would be no less IE
friendly. 

While I understand the reasoning for your message a pop-up box worded as
such is less than friendly. Perhaps some header text would be more
appropriate. Another thought - what if a user is using Firefox but is
planning on implementing something that needs to be IE friendly.

James c.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Felix Miata
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:07 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not

On 06/04/01 16:47 Felix Miata apparently typed:

> My understanding of JS is next to 0, so every time I want to do the 
> simplest thing I haven't done before I have to go struggle through 
> some tutorial, this time at http://www.quirksmode.org/. Again, I'm 
> getting nowhere with something that seems it should be simple. I just 
> want to throw an alert based upon whether the browser is really IE or 
> any other browser. It seems object detection is the way to go, but I'm

> not finding a suitable object to detect. Someone suggested 
> window.ActiveXControl but NAICT it seems that that is an option that 
> can be disabled and so wouldn't be suitable. Can anyone help?

FWIW, the URL in my .sig below is the page for which I asked. Opening it
with IE should make evident why I only want the event to occur if the
visitor is really using IE and not some impostor like Opera.

The current possibly too simple solution actually came from a discussion
on irc://moznet/js and will most likely need revision when IE7 goes GA,
and that presumes I won't change my mind about the whole idea before
that happens.

Comments welcome, particularly if you have ideas about who you think the
target audience for the page is. What actually triggered my idea for it
in the first place is the core of
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/css/colstyle.css which as yet I use only on 4
pages.
--
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them."			Ephesians 5:11 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth


From Conleyj at kubota-kma.com  Mon Apr  3 11:17:49 2006
From: Conleyj at kubota-kma.com (James Conley)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:17:49 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
Message-ID: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853242C@STATION.kubota-kma.com>

RE the "only for ...1024x768 resolution"

I always hate those. There is no reason other than laziness to design a
site that *must* be viewed at 1024x768.

James c.


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Christian Heilmann
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 12:10 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not

> FWIW, the URL in my .sig below is the page for which I asked. Opening 
> it with IE should make evident why I only want the event to occur if 
> the visitor is really using IE and not some impostor like Opera.

http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/js/iebad.js is soo 1990ies. What about users
who cannot change their browser as their company dictates the IT
environment? A practice like this is as arrogant and obtrusive as a
"only for MSIE and 1024x768 resolution" message.
-- 

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and
archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web,
evolt ! 


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 11:50:47 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:50:47 +0100
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <200604031745.23177.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<F7759874-D912-4F82-A511-11CE49A96BB7@loudjoy.com>
	<200604031745.23177.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604030950q942ce13y8e1aa8375095ee49@mail.gmail.com>

> > Is an mpeg file viewable in any stand alone player? Mac or PC?

There is a significant difference between mpg (MPEG-1) as used in VCDs
and MPEG-2 as used in DVDs. Simply renaming the file is not enough. If
you don't  have a DVD decoder installed on the computer (which is
something that comes with DVD player software like WinDVD) then you
cannot play MPEG-2 files.

A really cool tool for converting DVDs to usable formats - especially
for the web and also ipods and other mobile gadget is mpegstreamclip
which is available for both PC and Mac:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/video/mpegstreamclip.html

A PC only tool that is sickeninly versatile when it comes to
conversion formats is SUPER http://www.erightsoft.com/Superdt.html
(yes, the site navigation is less than super).

Before using streamclip I did all my conversion stuff with XMPEG:
http://www.xmpeg.net/website/

Beware that there are 34325435435234123 different conversion programs
out there (rough estimate), and that 97.384% are total rubbish (actual
fact) and not worth their money.

HTH

Chris

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From mrmazda at ij.net  Mon Apr  3 13:31:30 2006
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:31:30 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604030909hcfba133l3afb25d045b3c3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <442EF509.9060205@ij.net> <44313A2D.20709@ij.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604030909hcfba133l3afb25d045b3c3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44316A02.5040901@ij.net>

On 06/04/03 12:09 Christian Heilmann apparently typed:

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> FWIW, the URL in my .sig below is the page for which I asked. Opening it
>> with IE should make evident why I only want the event to occur if the
>> visitor is really using IE and not some impostor like Opera.

> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/js/iebad.js is soo 1990ies. What about users
> who cannot change their browser as their company dictates the IT
> environment? A practice like this is as arrogant and obtrusive as a
> "only for MSIE and 1024x768 resolution" message.

Obtrusive, no doubt. Arrogant, maybe. Might depend on who is expected to
see it and when. At least for now, it's only called by one page. Did you
even consider my last paragraph? In particular: "particularly if you
have ideas about who you think the target audience for the page is."

It's not intended for the general web population, but rather, a subset
that includes almost entirely site designers and reviewers, particularly
n00bs who design first or exclusively in IE instead of a
standards-compliant browser.

I thought about including a similar message on an about this site page,
but I really don't think making it easily accessible to those to whom it
isn't relevant is a better option.
-- 
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them."			Ephesians 5:11 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth



From mrmazda at ij.net  Mon Apr  3 13:27:44 2006
From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:27:44 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853242B@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853242B@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
Message-ID: <44316920.5040504@ij.net>

A: Top-posters who don't trim mailing list footers and .sigs.
Q: What's the 2nd most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of the discussion.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On 06/04/03 12:15 James Conley apparently typed:

> From: Felix Miata

> Comments welcome, particularly if you have ideas about who you think the
> target audience for the page is. What actually triggered my idea for it
> in the first place is the core of
> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/css/colstyle.css which as yet I use only on 4
> pages.

> While I understand the reasoning for your message a pop-up box worded as
> such is less than friendly.

Which was the reason for the above, looking for impressions/discussion
about the language.

> Perhaps some header text would be more
> appropriate.

You mean something non-M$IE users could easily see with styles turned off or
unsupported in their UA?

> Another thought - what if a user is using Firefox but is
> planning on implementing something that needs to be IE friendly.

How might that matter? That alert is not intended to be used site-wide.
-- 
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them."			Ephesians 5:11 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth




From jdowdell at adobe.com  Mon Apr  3 14:04:29 2006
From: jdowdell at adobe.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:04:29 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Convert DVD video to the web
In-Reply-To: <4s3lvb$ct90tv@ozemail-mail.icp-qv1-irony1.iinet.net.au>
References: <4s3lvb$ct90tv@ozemail-mail.icp-qv1-irony1.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <443171BD.6000304@adobe.com>

Justin Zachan wrote:
> ... somehow I need
> to convert the DVD files to a format that I can import into Flash...
> On the DVD there are a bunch of file types but mostly .VOB files...
> So I guess the question is, what is the best method to convert this
> movie...???

I haven't tested the various third-party solutions, but searches on both 
"vob to flv" and "dvd to flv" turn up translation utilities. (I've heard 
many recommend Riva Video Encoder at rivavx.com, but I don't know if it 
matches your content's filetypes.)

jd





-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


From Conleyj at kubota-kma.com  Mon Apr  3 14:19:00 2006
From: Conleyj at kubota-kma.com (James Conley)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:19:00 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
Message-ID: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>

>> While I understand the reasoning for your message a pop-up box worded

>> as such is less than friendly.

>Which was the reason for the above, looking for impressions/discussion
about the language.

In that case my suggestion is to avoid pop-up boxes like the plague.

>> Perhaps some header text would be more appropriate.

>You mean something non-M$IE users could easily see with styles turned
off or unsupported in their UA?

Something that ALL web users could easily see regardless of their
browser.

>> Another thought - what if a user is using Firefox but is planning on 
>> implementing something that needs to be IE friendly.

>How might that matter? That alert is not intended to be used site-wide.

I obviously misunderstood the context of your material. I thought your
site listed resources for website designers/ coders/etc. If so then a
simple note to the effect of "Note: not all of these resources with with
IE, in fact most of them do not work with IE. You will have to use a
different browser if you want to use these resources."


From jdowdell at adobe.com  Mon Apr  3 15:01:27 2006
From: jdowdell at adobe.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:01:27 -0700
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>	<98C4FC06-76D9-49E3-8B3A-8B7AB235D0E2@loudjoy.com>	<005b01c656ae$2f37c480$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <44317F17.4090605@adobe.com>

Richard Bennett wrote:
> Firstly, Flash IS proprietary software that you are requiring.

??  Is that some type of reasoning, or just an excuse for an existing 
prejudice, or...?



 > I don't know how they find 95% Flash 7 players on a survey... or
 > 89% Java penetration in the same survey - that's plain crazy.

Sorry, our bad, I don't see the methodology links on this front page 
anymore:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/

I've sent out a change-request to get the "who" and the "how" of these 
ongoing consumer audits more visible on those entry pages:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/npd/
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/survey/npd_survey/

Recap: Every three months for the last 7-8 years, NPD/MediaMetrix asks 
members of their regular consumer focus groups "Can you see this page? 
this page? how about this page? don't download anything new, but can you 
see this now? how about this?" and so on.

Content from Flash Player 7 was viewable by about 95% of consumers 
tested in December, not 97%, but that's still more than IE/Win or likely 
"any modern browser". The truly startling stat in all this was that 
Flash Player 8, with advanced graphics capabilities, was found on 50% of 
consumer machines within three months of its release.

If you'll allow me to transgress the bounds of good taste for a moment: 
HALF THE WEB HAD ITS CLIENTSIDE CAPABILITIES UPDATED IN ONLY THREE 
MONTHS, OMFG THIS IS IMMENSE, IT BLOWS OUT ALL THIS TALK ABOUT AJAX AND 
XAML AND WHATEVER WEB2.0 TOPIC DU JOUR IS ON THE BOARDS, HALF THE 
INTERNET UPGRADED IN ONLY THREE MONTHS, WHAT ARE YOU BOTHERING WITH 
GREASEMONKEY-SIZED AUDIENCES FOR? and so on.


Bottom line: Want to use video in a browser-based presentation? Use 
Flash... makes the most sense.
    (Yes, .MPG files work too, but you don't know how each audience 
member will view it... some will call up a new page with QuickTime, some 
will jump the visitor out to Windows Media Player, whatever. With Flash, 
video is just another first-class citizen in the HTML content.)








-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


From junkmail at lostcreektech.com  Mon Apr  3 15:02:20 2006
From: junkmail at lostcreektech.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:02:20 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9697.1144076727.8956.thelist@lists.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001001c65759$867fdbf0$0400a8c0@lostcreek01>

Greetings all,

We're currently working on a website for a client and they are using Windows
servers. Are there any relatively simple, easy apps/scripts/whatever out
there to display a random image each time a page is reloaded? We have
generally used rotator.php but it isn't working on their Windows servers.

On digest, so CCs to me would be much appreciated.

Thanks much,
Joseph



From junkmail at lostcreektech.com  Mon Apr  3 15:54:21 2006
From: junkmail at lostcreektech.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:54:21 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
In-Reply-To: <002401c6575c$f1a09ac0$0300000a@CJMLTP01>
Message-ID: <001701c65760$c8901300$0400a8c0@lostcreek01>

Am well aware of using search engines to find things on the net. If I wanted
to waste my time searching through dozens (or even hundreds) of products
that may or may not work or be what I am looking for, I would do a search.
Not all of us have time to sit and wade through the many results of a
search. However, it is usually much quicker and the results are better when
the search is narrowed down by recommendations of others familiar with the
desired product/services/etc. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Marsh [mailto:thelist at cjmarsh.com] 
Sent: Monday, 03 April, 2006 16:27
To: junkmail at lostcreektech.com
Subject: RE: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server

Joseph

> We're currently working on a website for a client and they are using 
> Windows servers. Are there any relatively simple, easy 
> apps/scripts/whatever out there to display a random image each time a 
> page is reloaded? We have generally used rotator.php but it isn't 
> working on their Windows servers.
> 
> On digest, so CCs to me would be much appreciated.

<http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=asp+image+rotator&btnG=Google+Search
&meta=>

Regards

Chris Marsh

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 03/04/2006
 





From thelist at cjmarsh.com  Mon Apr  3 17:53:20 2006
From: thelist at cjmarsh.com (Chris Marsh)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:53:20 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
In-Reply-To: <001701c65760$c8901300$0400a8c0@lostcreek01>
Message-ID: <002701c65771$67ebdeb0$0300000a@CJMLTP01>

Joseph

> Am well aware of using search engines to find things on the 
> net. If I wanted to waste my time searching through dozens 
> (or even hundreds) of products that may or may not work or be 
> what I am looking for, I would do a search. Not all of us 
> have time to sit and wade through the many results of a 
> search. However, it is usually much quicker and the results 
> are better when the search is narrowed down by 
> recommendations of others familiar with the desired 
> product/services/etc. 

Some points for your consideration:

1. You have clearly done no research yourself, nor followed the link that I
helpfully provided. If you had, you would realised that you do not require a
"product", so much as a few lines of code. Had you followed my link, you
would have realised that it would not have taken you much longer than the
time it took you to type your response to my email to actually solve your
problem.

2. If you think it's a waste of your time for you to do the job that you're
paid for, then I don't quite understand why you would think that it's not a
waste of other people's time to help you for free.

3. I replied to you privately. I did this because nothing in the email I
sent would have benefited the list. It was a friendly nudge in the right
direction for someone that exhibited all the signs of a person in need of a
spanking with a clue stick. Do not post private correspondance to public
lists without the express permission of the author. It exhibits disregard
for the author, and disrespect for the list.

4. If you had responded with something along the lines of "thanks for the
resource, unfortunately I'm not well versed in ASP - could you suggest any
tutorials for beginners?" I would most probably have supplied you with links
to tutorials and written you a script that did exactly what you wanted to
boot. The moral of the story? If you put in at least some effort, then
others are more likely to match it for you. Put in no effort at all, and no
one's going to be very interested in your problems.

Of course, all of the above are my own opinions; I wouldn't presume to speak
on behalf of others.

Regards

Chris Marsh

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 03/04/2006
 



From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Mon Apr  3 18:25:34 2006
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 01:25:34 +0200
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <44317F17.4090605@adobe.com>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<44317F17.4090605@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <200604040125.34908.richard.bennett@skynet.be>

On Monday 03 April 2006 22:01, John Dowdell wrote:
> Richard Bennett wrote:
> > Firstly, Flash IS proprietary software that you are requiring.
>
> ??  Is that some type of reasoning, 
Why? there's nothing wrong with Flash being proprietary is there?
I mean, you haven't gone open source have you? I think i was just stating the 
obvious:
Proprietary :
Private. Proprietary hardware and software are owned and controlled by a 
single organization or individual. Contrast with open. 
http://www.answers.com/proprietary&r=67
And you are requiring Flash, so i don't see what was unreasoned in that 
statement.

> or just an excuse for an existing 
> prejudice, or...?
I am only prejudiced against FUD. You might remember we had a discussion when 
Macromedia launched that blue-print example - I think it was a pet shop - 
that was supposed to be a best-practice example solving accessibility issues 
with Flash, but was actually a horribly broken non-validating page using 
hacks like hidden frames and inaccessible javascript links. 
That was simply a bad example for beginning developers, and that needed to be 
pointed out. I have nothing against Flash as such.

The same goes for this:
> Bottom line: Want to use video in a browser-based presentation? Use
> Flash... makes the most sense.
I would expect that you would come into contact with US government financed 
projects, which automatically fall under the 508 accessibility guidelines. 
When it comes to rich media the message has to be 'offer alternatives' 
so i don't see how your reply is an improvement on my statement:
>>Anyway, I'm not saying you should not use your embedded flash players, 
>>by all  means do, but don't suppose that everyone has chosen to install or 
>>upgrade to that particular plugin, and can actually see the content.
>>You can simply offer a link under the flash movie pointing to the mpeg file 
>>"Open in stand alone player". 
>>That way people can also download the movie, and they have a choice of which 
>>viewer they would like to use.
I mean, what are you saying? You SHOULD suppose that everyone can view the 
content? You SHOULDN'T bother offering alternatives? You SHOULD prevent users 
from opening the files in a viewer of their choice?
How can advising people NOT to offer an alternative be better advice?  

>
>  > I don't know how they find 95% Flash 7 players on a survey... or
>  > 89% Java penetration in the same survey - that's plain crazy.
>
> Sorry, our bad, I don't see the methodology links on this front page
> anymore:
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/
>
> I've sent out a change-request to get the "who" and the "how" of these
> ongoing consumer audits more visible on those entry pages:
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/npd/
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/survey/npd_survey/
I found them - that is why i posted a link to the survey myself.
But are they really still using that survey? they are stuck at MAC OS7 and 8, 
and Windows 95/98/NT. 

Maybe you could expand your change-request, what would really help developers 
is if the whole survey was published each time. That way we could judge 
whether a representative pool of users was used, and see which platforms and 
browsers are represented, are the same people used each time, and how pluggin 
penetration varies across age-groups, location etc etc.

> Bottom line: Want to use video in a browser-based presentation? Use
> Flash... makes the most sense.
>     (Yes, .MPG files work too, but you don't know how each audience
> member will view it... some will call up a new page with QuickTime, some
> will jump the visitor out to Windows Media Player, whatever. With Flash,
> video is just another first-class citizen in the HTML content.)
That's fine for a personal opinion, but not good advice for a webdeveloper.
In the nineties it was all about designers going crazy doing 'cutting-edge' 
stuff, and simply requiring the users to adapt their software to suite the 
site.
Now it is all about the websites being a service to the public, or the 
customer. We want to give every visitor access to the data, be they using a 
pda, an old pc with dialup, an accessibility aid, a corporate locked-down pc 
or whatever.
This means we have to get away from the mindset of 'forcing' the user to do 
this, and 'forcing' everything  to display pixel-perfect, and open our design 
to give the user choice. You say:
   >     (Yes, .MPG files work too, but you don't know how each audience
> member will view it.
That is the whole point! Empower the user to use the technology that best 
suits their setup. Sure, code your fancy embedded player, but give the user a 
choice. You are designing the page for the user, not for the designer.

let me round this mail off with an example:
http://rivablog.com/
This is a demo page for a flash movie encoder. You click the play button, and 
watch the cyclist go. Slower... and slower... and slower...
My whole browser starts freezing-up, and the only way to stop the damn film is 
to hit f5 to refresh the page.
So ok, my pc is a few years old, and my flash is v7, but the npd 95% doesn't 
take into account that the user experience might be crap, so the designer 
says, ho ho - 95% is enough for me, I'll force all users to watch this 
embedded in their browser, so they don't break my layout. 
So how many of that 95% actually have an enjoyable experience? And how many 
are glad they don't get a chance to open the movie in a player that has a 
stop button, and that can be scaled to a reasonable size? Maybe someone would 
like to save it and email it to somebody? Nope... you are part of the 95% so 
you view it in an icky little part of your browser because the designer 
prefers it like that.

That's the difference between proprietary and open. the first has to push 
their product exclusively whether or not it is the best solution, and the 
second can use the best selection of tools for the job, and empower the user 
to use what they prefer.

Regards,
 
Richard

<tip>
Drupal CMS have just released Drupal 4.7.0 RC 1.
This is the first release candidate for version 4.7 which offers a lot of 
improvements over version 4.6.
A few more release candidates are likely before v4.7 is finally released, but 
this version should be stable enough to setup a test site to get the feel for 
it, and maybe even to submit any bugs you find along the way. 

</tip>



















From junkmail at lostcreektech.com  Mon Apr  3 18:41:05 2006
From: junkmail at lostcreektech.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 19:41:05 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
In-Reply-To: <002701c65771$67ebdeb0$0300000a@CJMLTP01>
Message-ID: <001801c65778$15ecf2a0$0400a8c0@lostcreek01>

1. I did in fact do a search before posting to the list. Several of the
"solutions" did not work. Thus, I asked on the list to see if anyone could
recommend a particular solution that worked well for them. Product, snippet
of code, solution, service, whatever. It was just a general term.

2. So we should all spend our time reinventing the wheel rather than making
use of the list? Why bother having the list then?

3. I posted to the list, I replied to the list. If there was actually
something in the response that was incriminating or proprietary, it would
have been removed. There wasn't, so I didn't.

4. I didn't need a tutorial. I was simply looking for recommendations.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Marsh [mailto:thelist at cjmarsh.com] 
Sent: Monday, 03 April, 2006 18:53
To: junkmail at lostcreektech.com
Cc: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server

Joseph

> Am well aware of using search engines to find things on the net. If I 
> wanted to waste my time searching through dozens (or even hundreds) of 
> products that may or may not work or be what I am looking for, I would 
> do a search. Not all of us have time to sit and wade through the many 
> results of a search. However, it is usually much quicker and the 
> results are better when the search is narrowed down by recommendations 
> of others familiar with the desired product/services/etc.

Some points for your consideration:

1. You have clearly done no research yourself, nor followed the link that I
helpfully provided. If you had, you would realised that you do not require a
"product", so much as a few lines of code. Had you followed my link, you
would have realised that it would not have taken you much longer than the
time it took you to type your response to my email to actually solve your
problem.

2. If you think it's a waste of your time for you to do the job that you're
paid for, then I don't quite understand why you would think that it's not a
waste of other people's time to help you for free.

3. I replied to you privately. I did this because nothing in the email I
sent would have benefited the list. It was a friendly nudge in the right
direction for someone that exhibited all the signs of a person in need of a
spanking with a clue stick. Do not post private correspondance to public
lists without the express permission of the author. It exhibits disregard
for the author, and disrespect for the list.

4. If you had responded with something along the lines of "thanks for the
resource, unfortunately I'm not well versed in ASP - could you suggest any
tutorials for beginners?" I would most probably have supplied you with links
to tutorials and written you a script that did exactly what you wanted to
boot. The moral of the story? If you put in at least some effort, then
others are more likely to match it for you. Put in no effort at all, and no
one's going to be very interested in your problems.

Of course, all of the above are my own opinions; I wouldn't presume to speak
on behalf of others.

Regards

Chris Marsh

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/300 - Release Date: 03/04/2006
 





From jdowdell at adobe.com  Mon Apr  3 18:57:30 2006
From: jdowdell at adobe.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:57:30 -0700
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <200604040125.34908.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>	<44317F17.4090605@adobe.com>
	<200604040125.34908.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <4431B66A.6040001@adobe.com>

Richard Bennett wrote:
> That's the difference between proprietary and open. the first has to push 
> their product exclusively whether or not it is the best solution, and the 
> second can use the best selection of tools for the job, and empower the user 
> to use what they prefer.

As before, "??".

Maybe this thing I wrote three years ago can help:
"Is 'Open' and 'Shut' really open-and-shut?"
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd026.html

My theme: Using "But it's *proprietary*!" as a reasoning to cut off some 
of your choices may be doing yourself a disservice. Use what works for 
the job... no need to get all religious about it.

jd






-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


From jdowdell at adobe.com  Mon Apr  3 19:13:50 2006
From: jdowdell at adobe.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:13:50 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Getting screenshots to look good in Word (and then
 PDF)
In-Reply-To: <f608bc080603310200u6c73e85dwbdd5292040899a08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f608bc080603310200u6c73e85dwbdd5292040899a08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4431BA3E.8080703@adobe.com>

Rob wrote:
> I'm trying to get a screenshot of
> a webpage to look decent within a PDF. Taking screenshots, saving as
> GIF, inserting into Word to add other guff, then printing to PDF. As
> soon as they hit Word they look pretty awful though, and then printing
> to PDF the quality is reduced even further (using both PrimoPDF and
> CutePDF).

Microsoft Word doesn't have as many PDF export options as the real tools 
do... if you have Adobe Distiller, then this offers the most control 
over bitmaps in PDFs. But the bigger issue here may be the number of 
pixels in the image.

Computer interfaces and fonts are designed on a pixel-by-pixel basis. If 
the image is resized even a little bit then those pixels must be 
averaged together... you'll get JPEG-like artifacts even if you're 
saving to pixel-accurate GIF or PNG.

I don't know of any real way to prettify printed screencaptures, at 
least not without adding a lot more data to the file... if the screen 
has 1024 dots by 768 dots, and you're going to a printer with 300 or 
more dots per inch, then the result will tend to look blocky even if the 
pixels aren't averaged together at all. But print-res images are large, 
regardless... there's a hard choice to be made between compact files and 
interpolating extra pixels into a screencap in case it's printed. Hard 
either way.

jd




-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Mon Apr  3 19:23:41 2006
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:23:41 +1000
Subject: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
References: <001801c65778$15ecf2a0$0400a8c0@lostcreek01>
Message-ID: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4E79@kjserver1.kjhome.local>

Joseph,

Before you start asking other people to help you solve *your* problem (for
which you are being paid) for free (as in, we are working for you for free),
I think you should learn some etiquette. If you are going to persist with
this attitude, it just indicates that you think your time is more valuable
than mine. Is that really the way you want to come across? Do you really
think you'll get your problems solved this way?

a) As mentioned by Mark, it is extremely bad form to repost a private,
offlist, response back to the public list. If you have something to say to
Mark, please respond to him privately. If you wish to repost his private,
offlist, response back to the list, you should consult with him first.

b) 
> If I wanted to waste my time searching through dozens (or even hundreds) of
>  products that may or may not work or be what I am looking for, I would
> do a search. Not all of us have time to sit and wade through the many
> results of a search.

Not all of us have "time to waste" (in your words) helping you solve your
work problems for free either.

c) 
> 1. I did in fact do a search before posting to the list. Several of the
> "solutions" did not work

And where is your evidence of said searching? And why don't you help out by
mentioning the products that didn't work, so we don't waste everyone's time
re-recommending them?

d) 
> 2. So we should all spend our time reinventing the wheel rather than
> making use of the list? Why bother having the list then?

I believe you are mistaken about the purpose of this list. The list is here
so we can share knowledge, see topical issues, and gain help with complex
problems in a collaborative manner. It is not here as a substitute for doing
your own due diligence. It is not a substitute for Google. It is not free,
personal, support forum.

If you post a decent question, that explains what you want and shows that you
have put effort into solving your own problem, you will probably get more
detailed help from list members. We have better things to do than rekey
answers that have been provided before, or are available via Google. You
don't like that - tough. Hire someone, and they'll provide detailed answers
in a cheerful and comprehensive manner. If you want that some type of
information for free, you need to ask questions the smart way, and lose the
attitude.

You really need to read this:
http://www.adopenstatic.com/personal/help.asp
and
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
(but somehow I suspect you wont)


e) In answer to your question:
There are a large number of ways to do this. For example, if you have the
file details stored in a database, you can use a simple code snippet
(www.adOpenStatic.com/faq/randomrecord.asp) to select a random record from
your DB table. Or, you could do this client-side (by having a bit of
javascript that chooses a random record from an array). You could even have
your ASP write out the javascript arry dynamically. There are lots of
options, and since you haven't given us any details about how you want to
approach this, or what your existing setup is, there isn't a lot we can do. 

Cheers
Ken

: -----Original Message-----
: From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-
: bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Anonymous
: Sent: Tuesday, 4 April 2006 9:41 AM
: To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
: Subject: Re: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
: 
: 1. I did in fact do a search before posting to the list. Several of the
: "solutions" did not work. Thus, I asked on the list to see if anyone could
: recommend a particular solution that worked well for them. Product,
: snippet
: of code, solution, service, whatever. It was just a general term.
: 
: 2. So we should all spend our time reinventing the wheel rather than
: making
: use of the list? Why bother having the list then?
: 
: 3. I posted to the list, I replied to the list. If there was actually
: something in the response that was incriminating or proprietary, it would
: have been removed. There wasn't, so I didn't.
: 
: 4. I didn't need a tutorial. I was simply looking for recommendations.
: 
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Chris Marsh [mailto:thelist at cjmarsh.com]
: Sent: Monday, 03 April, 2006 18:53
: To: junkmail at lostcreektech.com
: Cc: thelist at lists.evolt.org
: Subject: RE: [thelist] Image rotator for ASP server
: 
: Joseph
: 
: > Am well aware of using search engines to find things on the net. If I
: > wanted to waste my time searching through dozens (or even hundreds) of
: > products that may or may not work or be what I am looking for, I would
: > do a search. Not all of us have time to sit and wade through the many
: > results of a search. However, it is usually much quicker and the
: > results are better when the search is narrowed down by recommendations
: > of others familiar with the desired product/services/etc.
: 
: Some points for your consideration:
: 
: 1. You have clearly done no research yourself, nor followed the link that
: I
: helpfully provided. If you had, you would realised that you do not require
: a
: "product", so much as a few lines of code. Had you followed my link, you
: would have realised that it would not have taken you much longer than the
: time it took you to type your response to my email to actually solve your
: problem.
: 
: 2. If you think it's a waste of your time for you to do the job that
: you're
: paid for, then I don't quite understand why you would think that it's not
: a
: waste of other people's time to help you for free.
: 
: 3. I replied to you privately. I did this because nothing in the email I
: sent would have benefited the list. It was a friendly nudge in the right
: direction for someone that exhibited all the signs of a person in need of
: a
: spanking with a clue stick. Do not post private correspondance to public
: lists without the express permission of the author. It exhibits disregard
: for the author, and disrespect for the list.
: 
: 4. If you had responded with something along the lines of "thanks for the
: resource, unfortunately I'm not well versed in ASP - could you suggest any
: tutorials for beginners?" I would most probably have supplied you with
: links
: to tutorials and written you a script that did exactly what you wanted to
: boot. The moral of the story? If you put in at least some effort, then
: others are more likely to match it for you. Put in no effort at all, and
: no
: one's going to be very interested in your problems.
: 
: Of course, all of the above are my own opinions; I wouldn't presume to
: speak
: on behalf of others.
: 
: Regards
: 
: Chris Marsh



From ian at zstudio.co.uk  Mon Apr  3 19:29:26 2006
From: ian at zstudio.co.uk (Ian Anderson)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 01:29:26 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Getting screenshots to look good in Word (and then
 PDF)
In-Reply-To: <4431BA3E.8080703@adobe.com>
References: <f608bc080603310200u6c73e85dwbdd5292040899a08@mail.gmail.com>
	<4431BA3E.8080703@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <4431BDE6.6060701@zstudio.co.uk>

John Dowdell wrote:

> I don't know of any real way to prettify printed screencaptures, at 
> least not without adding a lot more data to the file... if the screen 
> has 1024 dots by 768 dots, and you're going to a printer with 300 or 
> more dots per inch, then the result will tend to look blocky even if the 
> pixels aren't averaged together at all. But print-res images are large, 
> regardless... there's a hard choice to be made between compact files and 
> interpolating extra pixels into a screencap in case it's printed. Hard 
> either way.

In my experience, you can still get good looking screen shots on desktop 
laser printers even given the disparity of resolutions. The key is to 
send all the original dots, irrespective of the physical resolution of 
the screenshot, and don't allow interpolation or resampling to take 
place before the printer gets the image. Sometimes it is not easy to 
stop Acrobat from resampling images.

Cheers

Ian

-- 
_________________________________________________
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net



From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Mon Apr  3 20:13:51 2006
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 03:13:51 +0200
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <4431B66A.6040001@adobe.com>
References: <029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<200604040125.34908.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<4431B66A.6040001@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <200604040313.52428.richard.bennett@skynet.be>

On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:57, John Dowdell wrote:
> Richard Bennett wrote:
> > That's the difference between proprietary and open. the first has to push
> > their product exclusively whether or not it is the best solution, and the
> > second can use the best selection of tools for the job, and empower the
> > user to use what they prefer.
>
> As before, "??".
I really did my very best to explain it as clearly as I could, and illustrate 
it with an example.

> Maybe this thing I wrote three years ago can help:
> "Is 'Open' and 'Shut' really open-and-shut?"
> http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/jd_forum/jd026.html
It is not a technical question, it is a mindset.
Can you advise developers that your product might not be the best solution in 
some cases? Can you advise them that although your product is great, offering 
an alternative is a service to the user?
Or are you restricted to saying:
>>> Bottom line: Want to use video in a browser-based presentation? Use
>>> Flash... makes the most sense.
as though the rest of the world has no merit whatsoever.

> My theme: Using "But it's *proprietary*!" as a reasoning to cut off some
> of your choices may be doing yourself a disservice. Use what works for
> the job... no need to get all religious about it.
You seem to have misunderstood the sentence I wrote:
>> That's the difference between proprietary and open. the first has to push
>> their product exclusively whether or not it is the best solution, and the
>> second can use the best selection of tools for the job, and empower the
>> user to use what they prefer.
I am not talking about open source as such, but being open-minded.
Use Flash, or Mediaplayer, or Quicktime or whatever you want, and then offer 
the user an alternative in case your preference isn't suitable for them.
Simple.  
Advising developers to develop solely for one technology is simply bad advice.
It is nineties-talk. We would put up little badges saying "best viewed with 
netscape 4", and have anti-rightclick scripts on our shitty pages to stop 
people stealing our little tricks.
Times have changed. Your site should be a service to the user. You should do 
your very best to put the user in control - let them choose what they want to 
see, let them get there fast, without splash pages and intros, and offer them 
the data in several formats.
It is just commonsense.

Regards.

Richard

<tip>
In mysql, if you have a table like this:
id??????????????|name
22?????????????|red
12?????????????|red
45?????????????|red
3???????????????|pink
35?????????????|pink

and would like to export it to a spreadsheet looking like this:

ids             |name
22,12,45    |red
3,35           |pink

You can use the mysql PROPRIETARY extension GROUP_CONCAT, like this:

SELECT GROUP_CONCAT(id), name
FROM tablename
GROUP BY name

</tip>










From justin at jazzmanagement.com.au  Mon Apr  3 22:43:39 2006
From: justin at jazzmanagement.com.au (Justin Zachan)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 13:43:39 +1000
Subject: [thelist] Convert DVD video to the web
In-Reply-To: <005101c656aa$478e1240$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
Message-ID: <4sun1b$cl41vv@ozemail-mail.icp-qv1-irony2.iinet.net.au>

Hi there... Changing it to mpg and it certainly worked... And I can import
it into Flash OK... Thanks...

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Daryl Brown [mailto:mail at browncowmedia.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 3 April 2006 9:08 AM
To: justin at jazzmanagement.com.au; thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Convert DVD video to the web

a VOB file is already an mpg file. Mpeg 2 actually. If you have an mpeg-2
decoder on your machine, just add ".mpg" to the biggest VOB file and it
should play - Of course depending on your flash encoding app and whether it
can read an mpeg2 file.  Costs nothing to find out though!!

Daryl Brown
Digital Film Maker
Brown Cow Media
Sydney, Australia
www.browncowmedia.com.au
www.browncowdvd.com.au

>
> "First of all, what format are you on (PC or Mac). Second, and 
> probably
most
> importantly, is the DVD copyrighted? You may be in violation if you
attempt
> this
>
> Todd"
>
> Answer - I use a PC, and the client has clearance to use the DVD in 
> this way... Thanks...
>






From evoltlist at delime.com  Mon Apr  3 22:47:46 2006
From: evoltlist at delime.com (M. Seyon)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:47:46 -0400
Subject: [thelist] client to post video
In-Reply-To: <44317F17.4090605@adobe.com>
References: <200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
	<029c01c653fe$83f5cb00$6400a8c0@nnepacorp.com>
	<98C4FC06-76D9-49E3-8B3A-8B7AB235D0E2@loudjoy.com>
	<005b01c656ae$2f37c480$2002a8c0@2GHZDADSXP>
	<200604031138.19921.richard.bennett@skynet.be>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20060403233903.01e76988@mx.delime.com>

Message from John Dowdell (4/3/2006 01:01 PM)

>Recap: Every three months for the last 7-8 years, NPD/MediaMetrix asks
>members of their regular consumer focus groups

<snip>

>Content from Flash Player 7 was viewable by about 95% of consumers
>tested in December,

<snip>

>HALF THE WEB HAD ITS CLIENTSIDE CAPABILITIES UPDATED IN ONLY THREE
>MONTHS

Sorry, I know this probably goes against all the rules of statistics and 
data analysis and survey conducting, but I've never bought into the theory 
of "These are the results we found based on our study of 2000 people 
therefore it must be valid for the other 6+ billion in the world."

A more accurate statement, to me, would have been, "Half of our sample 
audience had its clientside capabilities..."

Also I believe the npd page you link to states clearly at the top of the 
table with the 97% claim,
"Results (US only)".

<tangent>
Why don't I pay these US-centric surveys much heed? I'll give you one 
reason - those genius geographers still haven't figured out that it's not a 
good idea to lump the Caribbean in with Latin America, because then they're 
tempted to pre-guess that they're Spanish speaking and push Spanish content 
at us (VISA's website does just that). All well and good in South America 
where probably 90+% speak Spanish natively. But for more than half of the 
Caribbean, this does not hold true.
</tangent>

regards.
-marc

--
Trinidad Carnival in all its photographic glory. Playyuhself.com
http://www.playyuhself.com/


From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 00:14:42 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:14:42 +0300
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604032214q52a29234mad33b94ae1bb8870@mail.gmail.com>

>You mean something non-M$IE users could easily see with styles turned off
or
>unsupported in their UA?

Slightly deviating from the subject:
Who are going to joing "the first annual webmasters naked day?"
Will we be seeing evolt naked?

http://www.volkanozcelik.com/cre8/blog/2006/04/i-will-be-naked-for-one-full-day.html

Cheers :)
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 00:47:48 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 06:47:48 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604032214q52a29234mad33b94ae1bb8870@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<dfc81b090604032214q52a29234mad33b94ae1bb8870@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604032247w7aa14fb6yde5413c837177b1c@mail.gmail.com>

> Slightly deviating from the subject:
> Who are going to joing "the first annual webmasters naked day?"
> Will we be seeing evolt naked?
>
> http://www.volkanozcelik.com/cre8/blog/2006/04/i-will-be-naked-for-one-full-day.html

What an amazingly fresh and great new idea! I'll be declaring
"Celebrate me for being a cool hip web designer day" on April the
12th, to show how amazing web designers are, let's all wear kippers on
our heads and jump on one foot all day!

1998 saw greyday that called all web designers to grey out their web
site to show what it looked like if all copyright infringement were to
be followed up as lawsuits:
http://web.archive.org/web/19990224113837/www.greyday.org/main.html
The original site is a domain squatter thingy now but this spoof is to
the point:
http://www.ntk.net/grey.html

Techheads also countered with grayday basically telling the design
community not to get their knickers in a twist:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010415065738/grayday.org/main.html

My personal $.02: Can we stop the self indulgence and thinking people
really care about our personal blogs and how we achieve some technical
stunt and concentrate on what we offer the visitors in terms of
information instead of celebrating ourselves?

Sorry for sounding grumpy, but putting a lot of time and effort into
an idea like http://csstoolshed.com and receiving nearly no
submissions whatsoever makes me really angry at memes pointing to
personal blogs and wasting our time advocating to the already
enlightened.
If you want to raise awareness about CSS and semantic markup and that
web sites can work without CSS a real web site for the cause, backed
up by a body like the W3C or WaSP and acccompanied by press releases
in the mainstream press with explanations as to the whys and hows for
non-techie people might have some impact, this is just celebrating
ourselves and there has certainly not been a lack of that in the past.


From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 01:26:32 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:26:32 +0300
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604032247w7aa14fb6yde5413c837177b1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<dfc81b090604032214q52a29234mad33b94ae1bb8870@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604032247w7aa14fb6yde5413c837177b1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604032326mac52712i9a09d23f3641329b@mail.gmail.com>

> What an amazingly fresh and great new idea!


I truly understand your feelings, Chris. Especially on css toolshed.
I was one of those, who promised to  do something for it, but was unable to
contribute because of lack of time. Shame on me.

My personal $.02: Can we stop the self indulgence and thinking people
> really care about our personal blogs and how we achieve some technical
> stunt and concentrate on what we offer the visitors in terms of
> information instead of celebrating ourselves?


I see. However, people like me may not have adequate time, because
constructing such a site - especially a site with good content and quality
to take non-techy-savy users' attention - requires a lot of time and effort.

So, imho ymmv etc., making tens of thousands of sited "naked" for one day is
a striking way to make people wonder "what the heck is going on the web?".

I'm curious about the viral effect it will make. (btw, I'm preparing an MBA
thesis on "viral marketing" and its impact on "social networks" -the full
problem statement is more elagant but simply that's what the thesis about in
plain old english- and this issue is sorta my special interest for the time
being)

At least some will google "naked day" etc and find some valuable sites
explaining why they are "naked" for one day.

To sum up, if you have limited time and you want to react somehow, there's
nothing easier than renaming your /lib/css folder to /lib/hide-css/ for one
day. It will take at most one minute!

If you want to raise awareness about CSS and semantic markup and that
> web sites can work without CSS a real web site for the cause, backed
> up by a body like the W3C or WaSP and acccompanied by press releases
> in the mainstream press with explanations


If one of my "magic" projects hold and I become prosperous enough so that I
may not need to think about how to earn a living; I promise I will devote my
time collaborating in those projects as well as creating my own like-minded
projects.

And I am serious on that. Really.

Cheers,
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 01:55:27 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 07:55:27 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604032326mac52712i9a09d23f3641329b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC3254800982853246E@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<dfc81b090604032214q52a29234mad33b94ae1bb8870@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604032247w7aa14fb6yde5413c837177b1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfc81b090604032326mac52712i9a09d23f3641329b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604032355p56107bdlf468e3cc54b76a1c@mail.gmail.com>

> My personal $.02: Can we stop the self indulgence and thinking people
> > really care about our personal blogs and how we achieve some technical
> > stunt and concentrate on what we offer the visitors in terms of
> > information instead of celebrating ourselves?
> I see. However, people like me may not have adequate time, because
> constructing such a site - especially a site with good content and quality
> to take non-techy-savy users' attention - requires a lot of time and effort.

That is what collaboration is for. The CSS-discuss Wiki is a good
example, albeit deteriorating at the moment, too. Could it be because
we spend our time writing about how cool we are and recording podcasts
talking to other cool web developers about how adding another CSS
selector has made our lives complete?

> So, imho ymmv etc., making tens of thousands of sited "naked" for one day is
> a striking way to make people wonder "what the heck is going on the web?".

It might, but I don't see tens of thousands of pages, and I certainly
consider the restrictions ridiculous:

quote
There's not much details about it. This is merely to see if you're up
to the challenge to put your website on the line. If you run an
e-commerce website, you ought not participate; this is purely for
those with personal blogs or for those who run publications
or?whatever. All the more props to you if you run a large website!
unquote

Why not e-commerce web sites? This is the sort of wishy washy
commitment I sense a lot with these kind of ideas. Yeah, take part but
keep well out of the business arena, lord knows we don't want those
guys to get wise on web standards, do we?

So all the sites on the list are personal blogs that already dwell in
the webesign/webdevelopment arena - and I don't see that many big ones
there. I will do the roundabout test and ask in the office later today
if anyone in the PM pool or Technical Architects - the people making
decisions about what products to use to develop a site  heard about
the idea :-)

> To sum up, if you have limited time and you want to react somehow, there's
> nothing easier than renaming your /lib/css folder to /lib/hide-css/ for one
> day. It will take at most one minute!

So does buying a sandwich at the local off-license and you ensure that
it will be there tomorrow, too, instead of a big supermarket chain
outlet. Might have more impact.

> If one of my "magic" projects hold and I become prosperous enough so that I
> may not need to think about how to earn a living; I promise I will devote my
> time collaborating in those projects as well as creating my own like-minded
> projects.
>
> And I am serious on that. Really.

Nobody asks yous to do anything, you do a tremendous job answering
questions here in a well-researched and proper manner, that has a
great impact although you may not be aware of it.

And either this or an advertising campaign catered at the decision
makers OUTSIDE the design/web development community will help raise
CSS awareness. However, CSS is a tool, like a shovel is a tool or
nailclippers are, it is not a religion or something someone who does
not develop or publish on the web really cares about.
There is also no need for them to care, IMHO. There is nothing worse
than having to deliver a project with some half-knowledged guy trying
to show off by pointing out personal web sites or blog entries that
show what can be done. "Yes, I know this site has CSS image galleries,
however, yours will be maintained in .NET and with a CMS and we cannot
create one template for each image". We could though, but that will
raise the budget and the development time by 500%. Want me to
re-calculate?


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 04:43:33 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:43:33 +0100
Subject: [thelist] [job] Head of Front end development, London UK
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604040243s87935b0vc4eaa95293c7629b@mail.gmail.com>

Hopefully this is OK with the admins here. We are looking to replace
me at the company I am working at the moment as I resigned to move on
next week.

So if you are

- an experienced Lead web developer
- can lead a team of 3 developers in the UK and 5 in India
- got an expert knowledge in web standard technologies
- up to speed on accessibility issues and legal requirements
- got experience with integrating several different frameworks (.NET,
spring) and different CMS (Tridion, Immediacy, Joomla)

And if you want to
- work in southwest London (Hammersmith)
- work with clients like McDonalds, HP, Visit Britain, Last Minute and lots more
- get a competitive wage
- are available quickly and looking for a permanent position

Drop me a line, and I will give you a buzz.

Sorry about this spam, and about it being UK-centric, but it is an
opportunity and I rather get someone in place that knows his stuff
than lots of agencies sending us CVs to fill up their contact quota.

cheers
Chris

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From dwayne.conyers at hp.com  Tue Apr  4 08:04:12 2006
From: dwayne.conyers at hp.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:04:12 -0500
Subject: [thelist] [job] Head of Front end development, London UK
Message-ID: <A4F2DFD61B81C740B79FE5A443D8345A08ED893D@cceexc15.americas.cpqcorp.net>

The prospect of going back to London doesn't appeal to me but hopefully
you will find the right person(s).  Cheers.


-- 
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com


From bedouglas at earthlink.net  Tue Apr  4 10:20:05 2006
From: bedouglas at earthlink.net (bruce)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:20:05 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Ad Server/Ad Management Application
Message-ID: <102301c657fb$412e29b0$0301a8c0@Mesa.com>

Hi,

I'm trying to find an app/product that can met my needs. I'd like an app
that would allow vendors/advertisers to create ads and have the ads display
on a given website(s). I'd like tha app to be able to allow the advertiser
to also be charged for the ability to place the ad. I'd also like the
ability to be able to provide the advertiser the ability to either place an
ad on the site, or to email an add to a given population of users on the
site...

I've looked at various apps on the net, as well as trying to call
Doubelclick, etc... with no real luck.

Any thoughts/ideas/comments????

Thanks

-Bruce
bedouglas at earthlink.net



From hut at hockeymail.com  Tue Apr  4 11:03:21 2006
From: hut at hockeymail.com (Eduardo)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:03:21 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Ad Server/Ad Management Application
In-Reply-To: <102301c657fb$412e29b0$0301a8c0@Mesa.com>
References: <102301c657fb$412e29b0$0301a8c0@Mesa.com>
Message-ID: <443298C9.8010803@hockeymail.com>

There's phpAdsNew at http://phpadsnew.com/two/ and also Max Media 
Manager at https://trac.openads.org/. Both are very good but MMM seems 
to perform better than the first one.

Eduardo

bruce wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to find an app/product that can met my needs. I'd like an app
> that would allow vendors/advertisers to create ads and have the ads display
> on a given website(s). I'd like tha app to be able to allow the advertiser
> to also be charged for the ability to place the ad. I'd also like the
> ability to be able to provide the advertiser the ability to either place an
> ad on the site, or to email an add to a given population of users on the
> site...
> 
> I've looked at various apps on the net, as well as trying to call
> Doubelclick, etc... with no real luck.
> 
> Any thoughts/ideas/comments????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -Bruce
> bedouglas at earthlink.net
> 


From potatosculptor at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 13:23:12 2006
From: potatosculptor at gmail.com (sam foster)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 13:23:12 -0500
Subject: [thelist] JSON and Client-side classes
In-Reply-To: <11DFAB97-BA21-47E8-AF84-C0F41AC58E59@attensa.com>
References: <11DFAB97-BA21-47E8-AF84-C0F41AC58E59@attensa.com>
Message-ID: <9e3dd260604041123w3564c10du17eef963a88e7433@mail.gmail.com>

You could get the data to create your Person instance from a JSON
string.. is that what you are asking?

PersonObject = function(props) {
  for(var key in props) {
   this[key] = props[key];
  }
}

var person1 = new PersonObject( parseJSON(someJsonString) );

which is just a simplistic example. I prefer this model of passing
arguments into a construtor anyway. You could support either by
switching on the length of arguments, and/or the typeof the first
argument.

hth
Sam

On 3/7/06, Mark Baldwin <mark.baldwin at attensa.com> wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> I've been playing around with JSON and I can't seem to find the
> answer to the following:
>
> Lets say you have a JS include that defines an object such as
>
> PersonObject = function() {
>         this.name = '';
>         this.age = '';
> }
>
> Is it possible, via JSON, to eval a string such that it would create
> a new instance of a person object? A bonus would be a way of doing it
> without creating an incredibly large, and obscene, constructor.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mark


From jblanchard at pocket.com  Tue Apr  4 13:31:31 2006
From: jblanchard at pocket.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 13:31:31 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Out with tradition? GET or POST
Message-ID: <56608562F6D5D948B22F5615E3F57E6921BD31@YGEX01WAL.onecall.local>

I thought this to be unusual;

I was validating some pages for an upcoming project and got this as my
only error;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Below are the results of checking this document for XML well-formedness
and validity. 

Error Line 15 column 29: value of attribute "method" cannot be "POST";
must be one of "get", "post".
<form action="#" method="POST">
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

For years we have been told that the method must be in all caps, even
though we all found that not to be the case; our forms would act as we
wished. But we all wanted to join the 'valid' mark-up community so we
all happily typed the words in upper-case. I guess that this is the
first time that I have noticed this because I have been more on the
web-applications development side for the past few years and we didn't
really validate much.

[/end introspective rant on nothing really important]

<tip type="MySQL Users">
Do not forget to "FLUSH PRIVILIEGES" after adding or updating users in
MySQL. While you may be able to query the user or changes made to the
user there will be no effect (old passwords will still work, etc) until
you have performed that query.
</tip>


From evolt at kasimir-k.fi  Tue Apr  4 13:58:49 2006
From: evolt at kasimir-k.fi (kasimir-k)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:58:49 +0000
Subject: [thelist] Out with tradition? GET or POST
In-Reply-To: <56608562F6D5D948B22F5615E3F57E6921BD31@YGEX01WAL.onecall.local>
References: <56608562F6D5D948B22F5615E3F57E6921BD31@YGEX01WAL.onecall.local>
Message-ID: <4432C1E9.5080504@kasimir-k.fi>

Jay Blanchard scribeva in 04/04/2006 18:31:
> I thought this to be unusual;

Actually it's just a difference between HTML and XHTML specs.

> Below are the results of checking this document for XML well-formedness
> and validity. 
> 
> Error Line 15 column 29: value of attribute "method" cannot be "POST";
> must be one of "get", "post".
> <form action="#" method="POST">

"XHTML documents must use lower case for all HTML element and attribute 
names. This difference is necessary because XML is case-sensitive e.g. 
<li> and <LI> are different tags."[0]

> For years we have been told that the method must be in all caps, even
> though we all found that not to be the case; our forms would act as we
> wished. 

"This attribute specifies which HTTP method will be used to submit the 
form data set. Possible (case-insensitive) values are "get" (the 
default) and "post"."[1]


.k

[0]http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.2
[1]http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#adef-method



From evolt at markgroen.com  Tue Apr  4 14:45:49 2006
From: evolt at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:45:49 -0700
Subject: [thelist] age old question: how to deal with addressbook export
In-Reply-To: <1143903630.9517.2.camel@localhost>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4DED@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<1143903630.9517.2.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1144179950.10265.9.camel@mark>

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 23:00 +0800, ??? wrote:
> snip..
> > : ........ The project is done in php.
> > : Now the requirement is to export the contact data. I think of CSV. But I
> > : am not sure how I will handle language information and/or multiple
> > : values of LDAP, e.g. the company have 3 addresses and each of them have
> > : 3 languages. Perhaps I should export to some spreadsheet format so that
> > : I can use different tabs for different languages.

This php application will talk ldap and then export to vcard, don't
recall if it does CSV too:

http://ugsrv.ug.edu.gh/phpldapadmin/documentation.php?view=changelog

Also found this that may interest you:

http://www.openldap.org/lists/openldap-software/200506/msg00133.html

heading out the door, so haven't checked further, but the post above
mentions that openldap.org does what you want so it may be worth
investigating too.
-- 
cheers,

        Mark



From mark.baldwin at attensa.com  Tue Apr  4 17:50:22 2006
From: mark.baldwin at attensa.com (Mark Baldwin)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 15:50:22 -0700
Subject: [thelist] JSON and Client-side classes
In-Reply-To: <9e3dd260604041123w3564c10du17eef963a88e7433@mail.gmail.com>
References: <11DFAB97-BA21-47E8-AF84-C0F41AC58E59@attensa.com>
	<9e3dd260604041123w3564c10du17eef963a88e7433@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0532EBF7-3437-4716-8B47-61E17BD80CD7@attensa.com>

Thanks for taking up the cause. What you came up with is what I ended  
up doing. Turned out to be the only feasible option.
What I though would have been slick at the time would to be able to  
go like this:

var newGuy = eval('(' + jsonString + ')');

So with a little foresight (both server and client know about the  
object to create, security safeguards, etc.) a php script could send  
down a brand spanking new object to the client without the extra  
steps of creating a new object and then decorating it with the  
returned data.


Mark

On Apr 4, 2006, at 11:23 AM, sam foster wrote:

> You could get the data to create your Person instance from a JSON
> string.. is that what you are asking?
>
> PersonObject = function(props) {
>   for(var key in props) {
>    this[key] = props[key];
>   }
> }
>
> var person1 = new PersonObject( parseJSON(someJsonString) );
>
> which is just a simplistic example. I prefer this model of passing
> arguments into a construtor anyway. You could support either by
> switching on the length of arguments, and/or the typeof the first
> argument.
>
> hth
> Sam
>
> On 3/7/06, Mark Baldwin <mark.baldwin at attensa.com> wrote:
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> I've been playing around with JSON and I can't seem to find the
>> answer to the following:
>>
>> Lets say you have a JS include that defines an object such as
>>
>> PersonObject = function() {
>>         this.name = '';
>>         this.age = '';
>> }
>>
>> Is it possible, via JSON, to eval a string such that it would create
>> a new instance of a person object? A bonus would be a way of doing it
>> without creating an incredibly large, and obscene, constructor.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Mark
> -- 
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !



From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Wed Apr  5 05:20:01 2006
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:20:01 +0300
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
Message-ID: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>

<tip type="AJAX Image Script" author="Hershel Robinson">
Just saw this today:

http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/

provides a very nice method to 'show larger image' right on the page.
</tip>

--
Gallery Robinson Web Services
http://web.galleryrobinson.com/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 05:33:26 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:33:26 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>

> <tip type="AJAX Image Script" author="Hershel Robinson">
> Just saw this today:
>
> http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/
>
> provides a very nice method to 'show larger image' right on the page.
> </tip>

Steady on! Lightbox is a very cool script, no doubt, but it has
nothing to do with AJAX, let's not confuse matters.

AJAX means using XMLHTTPRequest to talk to the server, all lightbox
does is load an image.

While Lightbox can work locally and without a server no AJAX solution
can (without HTTP).

Don't get too excited.

And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)


--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 05:47:23 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:47:23 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX pains - why is Safari being bitchy?
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604050347y7fd6fe69l3fd4a90af6dac383@mail.gmail.com>

I just put an RSS displayer online for you to check out:

http://onlinetools.org/tools/feednav/

My issue with it is Safari:

1) Safari doesn't seem to get request.status although I made the
request unique with a timestamp:
request.open('get',feednavcfg.serverScript+encodeURI(url)+'&t='+now.getTime());

2) In some feeds Safari does just hangs and does not even trigger the
timeOut I defined for bad requests.

Any way around that or is it just a given until the next upgrade is out?

Cheers
Chris

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From discuss at alphanumeric.cz  Wed Apr  5 06:14:31 2006
From: discuss at alphanumeric.cz (Jan Brasna)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:14:31 +0200
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
Message-ID: <4433A697.4000603@alphanumeric.cz>

FYI no AJAX in there. Solely DOM.

-- 
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Wed Apr  5 06:19:57 2006
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 14:19:57 +0300
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <4433A697.4000603@alphanumeric.cz>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <4433A697.4000603@alphanumeric.cz>
Message-ID: <4433A7DD.8010601@netvision.net>

> FYI no AJAX in there. Solely DOM.

 > Steady on! Lightbox is a very cool script, no doubt, but it has
 > nothing to do with AJAX, let's not confuse matters.

Well now how do you like that? The author posted a note to another list 
I am on announcing this tool and clearly indicated it is somehow 
considered AJAX. I myself didn't look under the hood to see how it works.

> And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)

What precisely does this mean?

Thanks.

--
Gallery Robinson Web Services
http://web.galleryrobinson.com/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 06:47:47 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:47:47 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <4433A7DD.8010601@netvision.net>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <4433A697.4000603@alphanumeric.cz>
	<4433A7DD.8010601@netvision.net>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604050447o159c48c9odbebd9bbf69d2388@mail.gmail.com>

> > FYI no AJAX in there. Solely DOM.
>
>  > Steady on! Lightbox is a very cool script, no doubt, but it has
>  > nothing to do with AJAX, let's not confuse matters.
>
> Well now how do you like that? The author posted a note to another list
> I am on announcing this tool and clearly indicated it is somehow
> considered AJAX. I myself didn't look under the hood to see how it works.

Then tell him it is not true, especially not AJAX as there is no X
(which does stand for XML) involved at all. I am not demeaning the
script - it is a very good script- but it is just not AJAX, and for a
good reason as you'd need to have a server and some server side code
to use it were it to be AJAX. My image preview script uses an optional
server side component to resize images on the fly, but it is not AJAX
either:
http://icant.co.uk/articles/imagepreview/

> > And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)
>
> What precisely does this mean?

Just preventing another hyped term to be applied to it :-)

Defining Web2.0 is tough, but if somebody were to claim something like
lightbox is web2.0 you can ask where the community part of it is :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web2.0
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From bird at koolfish.com  Wed Apr  5 07:12:13 2006
From: bird at koolfish.com (Birdie)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 20:12:13 +0800
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
Message-ID: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>

Has anyone got any good or bad things to say about the hosting at
http://www.theplanet.com/ particularly about the dedicated servers and the
response of technical support.

 

Thanks

 

Lisa



From colclasure at BATTELLE.ORG  Tue Apr  4 12:45:52 2006
From: colclasure at BATTELLE.ORG (Colclasure, Wyett H)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:45:52 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Rewrite https:// to http:// ??
Message-ID: <DB3DE9AC61BB914B91021AA9D7DD63540141748C@WS-BEST-MSE2.milky-way.battelle.org>

We've just been handed this whiz-bang redesigned website that runs on an
PHP & Apache server. I need a brain to pick!! I want to convert an https
call to an ordinary http call in a couple of places:
 
1. Reroute a user that typed https://address/file in the address bar to
http://address/file
2. I can use rewrite rules to force specified pages to run on https but
can't figure out how to get them back down to http outside of bypassing
the PHP generated relative links with a hardcoded page
 
TIA    --WHC
. 
 


From grugnog at grugnog.com  Wed Apr  5 05:59:39 2006
From: grugnog at grugnog.com (Grugnog)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:59:39 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1144234780.9976.69.camel@localhost.localdomain>


> And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)

Ahh, but is it Web 3.11 for Workgroups?


From evolt at markgroen.com  Wed Apr  5 08:35:00 2006
From: evolt at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 06:35:00 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
In-Reply-To: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>
References: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>
Message-ID: <1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>

On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 20:12 +0800, Birdie wrote:
> Has anyone got any good or bad things to say about the hosting at
> http://www.theplanet.com/ particularly about the dedicated servers and the
> response of technical support.

I've been with them for almost two years now, very good service imho.
Another company I know has over 800 U's there and they keep adding more,
they must be doing something right.

Their connectivity is what sold me actually, it's massive and reliable.
-- 
Warm Regards,

Mark Groen
Box 57
Bowen Island, BC, V0N 1G0
604-780-6917
www.mgwebservices.ca



From jblanchard at pocket.com  Wed Apr  5 08:37:10 2006
From: jblanchard at pocket.com (Jay Blanchard)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:37:10 -0500
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
Message-ID: <56608562F6D5D948B22F5615E3F57E6921BDC8@YGEX01WAL.onecall.local>

[snip]
> And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)

Ahh, but is it Web 3.11 for Workgroups?
-- 
[/snip]

I thought it was WebXP Home Edition.

Caution: tips are owed.

<tip type="MySQL">
To get the number of days in a month use LAST_DAY in your query;

SELECT LAST_DAY('2003-02-05');
        -> '2003-02-28'
SELECT LAST_DAY('2004-02-05');
        -> '2004-02-29'
SELECT LAST_DAY('2004-01-01 01:01:01');
        -> '2004-01-31'
SELECT LAST_DAY('2003-03-32'); <---invalid date
        -> NULL

</tip>


From Brian at hondaswap.com  Wed Apr  5 08:40:29 2006
From: Brian at hondaswap.com (Brian Cummiskey)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:40:29 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
In-Reply-To: <1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>
References: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>
	<1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>
Message-ID: <4433C8CD.6040603@hondaswap.com>


>>Has anyone got any good or bad things to say about the hosting at
>>http://www.theplanet.com/ particularly about the dedicated servers and the
>>response of technical support.


I am also on theplanet for about 2.5 years now.  No complaints.  good 
service, intelligent technicians.  Half the time i have a ticket open 
before i even know anything is down.



From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Wed Apr  5 08:50:18 2006
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:50:18 +0300
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604050447o159c48c9odbebd9bbf69d2388@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <4433A697.4000603@alphanumeric.cz>
	<4433A7DD.8010601@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050447o159c48c9odbebd9bbf69d2388@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4433CB1A.4000209@netvision.net>

<snip />

> My image preview script uses an optional
> server side component to resize images on the fly, but it is not AJAX
> either:
> http://icant.co.uk/articles/imagepreview/

When I click on a camera icon in FF 1.5 Win 2K and then click on the 
image, a 1 pixel dotted border is left around the camera and where the 
picture was.

--
Gallery Robinson Web Services
http://web.galleryrobinson.com/


From bird at koolfish.com  Wed Apr  5 08:49:31 2006
From: bird at koolfish.com (Birdie)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 21:49:31 +0800
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
In-Reply-To: <1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>
Message-ID: <0IX900IPA52YPY30@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>

Mark wrote:
I've been with them for almost two years now, very good service imho.
Another company I know has over 800 U's there and they keep adding more,
they must be doing something right.

Their connectivity is what sold me actually, it's massive and reliable.

Thanks, I am a big dreamhost fan and usually host all my sites with them but
this time I am in need of a windows dedicated server. I have read many good
reviews on this list from people about crystaltech.com but just wanted to
check these guys out as well as my subcontractors use them. Thanks for your
feedback.

Lisa





From john_walker2002 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  5 09:11:13 2006
From: john_walker2002 at hotmail.com (John Walker)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:11:13 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Floating layer repositioning
Message-ID: <BAY108-F39BDA9720BB8C2A8EF984395CB0@phx.gbl>

All -

I am trying to add a floating layer to a website.  The problem I am having 
is that when the window is resized, the floating layer doesn't reposition.  
This is giving me a Left / Right scrollbar.  I am trying to figure out how 
to reposition the layer when the window is resized.

Any and all information would be greatly appreciated.




From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Wed Apr  5 10:01:01 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:01:01 -0700
Subject: [thelist] [job] Head of Front end development, London UK
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A22@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> Hopefully this is OK with the admins here. 

Should post on the site as well, but here is good, too

> We are looking to replace me

that's not gonna be easy

hope 1) you're moving somewhere very cool that'll excercise your little
grey cells and 2) you'll still be here on thelist, posting your heart
out; thoroughly enjoying the naked-day thread, among others

joel


From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Wed Apr  5 10:29:02 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:29:02 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Script for M$IE only, or not
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A26@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> That is what collaboration is for. The CSS-discuss Wiki is a good
> example, albeit deteriorating at the moment, too. Could it be because
> we spend our time writing about how cool we are and recording podcasts
> talking to other cool web developers about how adding another CSS
> selector has made our lives complete?

all kidding aside (I'll assume you were being a touch sarcastic toward
the end there ;) I've noticed lately that I'm finally starting to ramp
up my skills again, getting more web work (haven't done it full-time for
a few years) and really really needing to update my skills from 1998

so, who knows; maybe another wave of WaSP/MACCAWS-type thinking is
coming, and folks like me who really need to catch up will do a better
job of learning from folks like you who obviously 'get' CSS, among other
things, in a way I only dream of right now.

but sometimes it's hard to cram in all this learning around studying for
my real estate license update and teaching the band my new songs and the
rest of my real life

spinhead


From mwarden at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 10:31:42 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:31:42 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX pains - why is Safari being bitchy?
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604050347y7fd6fe69l3fd4a90af6dac383@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30bd6ffd0604050347y7fd6fe69l3fd4a90af6dac383@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4433E2DE.5070207@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christian Heilmann wrote:
> I just put an RSS displayer online for you to check out:
> 
> http://onlinetools.org/tools/feednav/
> 
> My issue with it is Safari:
> 
> 1) Safari doesn't seem to get request.status although I made the
> request unique with a timestamp:
> request.open('get',feednavcfg.serverScript+encodeURI(url)+'&t='+now.getTime());
> 
> 2) In some feeds Safari does just hangs and does not even trigger the
> timeOut I defined for bad requests.
> 
> Any way around that or is it just a given until the next upgrade is out?

Safari's cache logic is borked. Until they fix it, I've been forcing
Safari to avoid its cache. Not exactly the best option in a lot of
cases, but since you're trying to make the request unique anyway, sounds
like this might be for you.

Before you call send():

request.setRequestHeader('If-Modified-Since',
	'Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT');

The date is arbitrary. Just make sure it's formatted correctly

- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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From Conleyj at kubota-kma.com  Wed Apr  5 10:44:07 2006
From: Conleyj at kubota-kma.com (James Conley)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:44:07 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
Message-ID: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584DCB@STATION.kubota-kma.com>

> > And yes, lightbox is not Web2.0 either :-)
>
> What precisely does this mean?

It's a buzzword. Thus the websites you develop are Web 2.0 while your
competitors are not.
<ducks>

Caustic Tech recently bogged about Web 2.0

http://caustictech.typepad.com/


James c


From rich at richpoints.com  Wed Apr  5 10:48:43 2006
From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:48:43 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Redirect 301 a scary history - moving forward
Message-ID: <4433E6DB.1040405@richpoints.com>

Hi,
I started working on commerce about a year and a half ago.  This site 
has been around since about 1997 and has had numerous web masters.  When 
I took over there were many inconcintencies in file names and the 
extensions used.  So the first thing I did was to make all that stuff 
consistent by giving all the pages an .shtml file extension.  In 
addition I added a 301 redirect in the .htaccess file pointing the old 
addresses to the new ones. 

This seemed to work fine until last September, I don't remember the 
exact date, when Google danced and knocked many of the top keywords for 
this site off the chart.  Those keywords have bounced back but they 
still aren't as strong as they once were.

Now the client is moving to a new CMS and shopping cart system.  To do 
this will require another round of 301 redirects.  I'm very nervous 
about doing this as I know another drop in search rankings will drive my 
client and myself nuts.

Everything I've read about 301 redirects suggests that they work as 
intended. 

Here are my questions:

    * Was the drop that I experienced last fall just a Google thing or
      was it related to my redirects?
    * If I do another round of redirects would it be "safe" to get rid
      of the old ones which were first set over a year ago?
    * Should I gradually introduce the new redirects or do them all at once?
    * Any other considerations?

Thanks
Rich


From struan at exo.org.uk  Wed Apr  5 10:52:53 2006
From: struan at exo.org.uk (Struan Donald)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:52:53 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Redirect 301 a scary history - moving forward
In-Reply-To: <4433E6DB.1040405@richpoints.com>
References: <4433E6DB.1040405@richpoints.com>
Message-ID: <20060405155253.GA17825@bollo.hoodee.co.uk>

* at 05/04 09:48 -0600 Rich Points said:
>     * If I do another round of redirects would it be "safe" to get rid
>       of the old ones which were first set over a year ago?

How often are they used? It should be fairly easy to find out from
the log files. If they're still used a lot then I'd think about 
updating them to point at the new pages rather than have two
redirects occuring for each page. If you do keep then them put them
after the newer redirects so Apache can short ciruit out of the
redirect process as quickly as possible.

If they're not used a lot then I'd ditch them and maybe update the
404 page for the site with information about the changes.

cheers

Struan


From anthony at baratta.com  Wed Apr  5 11:05:17 2006
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Wed,  5 Apr 2006 09:05:17 -0700
Subject: [thelist] [SPAM]  Rewrite https:// to http:// ??
Message-ID: <96fb9050377cafd2cea34bfaa2932384@baratta.com>

> 1. Reroute a user that typed https://address/file in the address bar to
> http://address/file
> 2. I can use rewrite rules to force specified pages to run on https but
> can't figure out how to get them back down to http outside of bypassing
> the PHP generated relative links with a hardcoded page

Look for the HTTPS header / server variable. It should be off or on. Act accordingly.
 


From fuzzy2k at pacbell.net  Wed Apr  5 11:23:17 2006
From: fuzzy2k at pacbell.net (Michael Sprague)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [thelist] PDF page with close button
Message-ID: <20060405162317.75978.qmail@web82008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am working on a page for non-tech-savvy people who need to reference various different sections of a 140ish page pdf file in order to fill out forms they have been mailed or given in person.  The theory is they will open one page, look at it, then close it and look at another page... lather, rinse, repeat until done.  They will likely open from one to six or eight pages each.
   
  I need to be able open up a pop-up window from each of 39 different links on a page to display various different specific sections of a large pdf file.  The resulting page needs to have a Close button on it.
   
  <a href="rm1001nonb.pdf#nameddest=naf" Target="_blank">
   
  The above gets me a pop-up window with my specific page in the pdf file displayed, but I am not sure what the best method is, to get a Close button on the page.
   
  I was thinking frames, but how do I open a frameset with a close button in one frame and 1 of 39 different pdf sections in the other?  I could do it with 39 different frame sets, but I was kind of hoping one of you js gurus might have a more elegant, less repetitive solution.  
   
  My gut tells me that this is possible in js, but my brain isn't getting me the rest of the way there, and neither is my searching the web.
   
  Thank you.


Michael Sprague 
  310.497.7850 c
  608.541.6532 fax
   
  Serving the interweb since 1995.


From pieter at roosensdesign.com  Wed Apr  5 11:27:35 2006
From: pieter at roosensdesign.com (Pieter Roosens)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 18:27:35 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Floating layer repositioning
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F39BDA9720BB8C2A8EF984395CB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F39BDA9720BB8C2A8EF984395CB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D09DF862-E81E-4F57-86AE-110AF5B5ED28@roosensdesign.com>

Op 5-apr-06, om 16:11 heeft John Walker het volgende geschreven:

> I am trying to add a floating layer to a website.  The problem I am  
> having
> is that when the window is resized, the floating layer doesn't  
> reposition.
> This is giving me a Left / Right scrollbar.  I am trying to figure  
> out how
> to reposition the layer when the window is resized.
>
> Any and all information would be greatly appreciated.
>
Can be a lot of things.
Positioning should be: relative
Margin should be: auto
Depend on browsers also. IE on WIN needs strict mode.

Hope this helps,
Pieter
-----------------------------------------
http://www.roosensdesign.com



From morrison.ben at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 11:31:05 2006
From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:31:05 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Windows XP on a mac
Message-ID: <6073aef90604050931g485016ecs1824846bfd4aa771@mail.gmail.com>

Apple has formally given its thumbs-up to attempts to install and run
Windows XP on Intel-based Macs.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04/05/apple_okays_winxp_on_macs/

ben


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 11:41:34 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:41:34 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX pains - why is Safari being bitchy?
In-Reply-To: <4433E2DE.5070207@gmail.com>
References: <30bd6ffd0604050347y7fd6fe69l3fd4a90af6dac383@mail.gmail.com>
	<4433E2DE.5070207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604050941q6fc7c01dw321551f20040270d@mail.gmail.com>

> Safari's cache logic is borked. Until they fix it, I've been forcing
> Safari to avoid its cache. Not exactly the best option in a lot of
> cases, but since you're trying to make the request unique anyway, sounds
> like this might be for you.
>
> Before you call send():
>
> request.setRequestHeader('If-Modified-Since',
>         'Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT');

Does that fix the status thing as well?


From john_walker2002 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  5 11:46:07 2006
From: john_walker2002 at hotmail.com (John Walker)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:46:07 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Floating layer repositioning
In-Reply-To: <D09DF862-E81E-4F57-86AE-110AF5B5ED28@roosensdesign.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F2334344B35B750421417CA95CB0@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the info...

I have figured it out by using window.onresize

Thanks again!!!




From sbeam at onsetcorps.net  Wed Apr  5 11:53:08 2006
From: sbeam at onsetcorps.net (sbeam)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:53:08 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Rewrite https:// to http:// ??
In-Reply-To: <DB3DE9AC61BB914B91021AA9D7DD63540141748C@WS-BEST-MSE2.milky-way.battelle.org>
References: <DB3DE9AC61BB914B91021AA9D7DD63540141748C@WS-BEST-MSE2.milky-way.battelle.org>
Message-ID: <200604051253.08161.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>

On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:45 pm, Colclasure, Wyett H wrote:
> 1. Reroute a user that typed https://address/file in the address bar 
to
> http://address/file
> 2. I can use rewrite rules to force specified pages to run on https 
but
> can't figure out how to get them back down to http outside of 
bypassing
> the PHP generated relative links with a hardcoded page

two ideas:

1) do it in PHP. this affects only .php pages (obviously) which may or 
may not be OK depending on your needs. I've been known to use 
auto_prepend_file to include a script that might include, among other 
things, a block like:

/** redirect to non-SSL page if we don't need it **/
if ($_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] == 443 and
 !preg_match('/^\/secure\//' $_SERVER['REQUEST_URI'])) {

   header("Location: http://" . $_SERVER['HTTP_HOST']. 
$_SERVER['REQUEST_URI']);
   header("Connection: close");
   exit();
}

this has the advantage of allowing top-level images, css, etc called 
from pages within /secure/ to also go over SSL, avoiding the browser 
warning.

2) use mod_rewrite to do it based on subdomain name or directory name. 
Prob similar to what you are doing for the reverse direction.

<VirtualHost 64.140.206.28:443>
  ... SSL setup stuff ...
  RewriteCond %{SERVER_PORT} !^80$
  RewriteRule !^(secure/.*) http://domain.com/$1 [R,L]
</VirtualHost>

this might be faster (?) and cleaner. But you can get into a nice 
infinite redirect loop if not careful.

of course if you need to get more creative with the regexps then you 
can.

hth


-- 

# S Beam - Web App Dev Servs
# http://www.onsetcorps.net/


From Chris at globet.com  Wed Apr  5 11:53:32 2006
From: Chris at globet.com (Chris at globet.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:53:32 +0100
Subject: [thelist] PDF page with close button
Message-ID: <CD3ADD94E937C04F8E0B27E964D506BC043161E1@globetpds.globet.com>

Michael

[..]

>   I need to be able open up a pop-up window from each of 39 
> different links on a page to display various different 
> specific sections of a large pdf file.  The resulting page 
> needs to have a Close button on it.

Even though there is a close button in the top right-hand corner of the
browser window?

>   <a href="rm1001nonb.pdf#nameddest=naf" Target="_blank">
>
>   The above gets me a pop-up window with my specific page in 
> the pdf file displayed, but I am not sure what the best 
> method is, to get a Close button on the page.
>
>   I was thinking frames, but how do I open a frameset with a 
> close button in one frame and 1 of 39 different pdf sections 
> in the other?  I could do it with 39 different frame sets, 
> but I was kind of hoping one of you js gurus might have a 
> more elegant, less repetitive solution.  

Have you got access to a server-side scripting technology? If so, you
could specify an id for each PDF, and then display the appropriate PDF
according to the id. So, your anchor tag would look something like the
following:

<a href='pdfFrame.asp?id=1' target='_blank'>..</a>

The file pdfFrame.asp (or php, or whichever technology you're using)
would then have some logic along the following lines:

// Get id from querystring
// Find pdf filename for id from data structure (text file, database,
array etc.)
// Output HTML, including the correct PDF file path as a frame src
attribute value

>   My gut tells me that this is possible in js, but my brain 
> isn't getting me the rest of the way there, and neither is my 
> searching the web.

It would be possible using similar logic to that shown above, but you
would have to work very hard to make it accessible. Instead of
outputting the HTML, though, you could use the DOM to change the value
of the src attribute of the frame to reflect the path to the PDF. Ensure
that you do not allow XSS exploits if you take this route
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSS>.

Personally, I would argue that (IMHO) a PDF is not a webpage, and trying
to treat it as such will lead to nothing but woe. Don't forget that a
system like this will only work for browsers that are configured to
display a PDF, the rest will only offer a download anyway.

HTH

Chris Marsh
Web Developer
http://www.globet.com/
Tel: +44 20 8246 4804 Ext 828
Fax: +44 20 8246 4808

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From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  5 11:53:10 2006
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript/DOM columns solutions/ideas?
Message-ID: <20060405165310.57357.qmail@web51415.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,

I just picked up a new client who is developing a complex financial application, somewhat ajax
like. One aspect involves having a long list of items in 3-4 columns. You'd be able to add/remove
items and have them update dynamically.

The issue is that they are organized *vertically* in columns, not horizontally (they read up and
down, like a newspaper article with columns - not left to right). 

This presents the problem of trying to add/remove one item and have the rest flow correctly to
fill in/add space. Each column has 25 items.

Their original mock has tables. Adding/removing rows is easy in one table, but we'd have 3 or 4 of
them. If i took one out of column two...

I thought of using DIVs or better yet LI elements. But the problem remains - how to get them to
flow across columns. I suppose the whole list could be rewritten but we'd like to avoid that if
possible.

I found one article on alistapart for having LIs cross columns, but it's not a great solution that
would present some serious challenges dynamically. 

I realize this is a toughie, In 10 years I've never really seen it done. Any suggestions
appreciated.

Tom

http://www.pixelmech.com/
http://www.crossandthrone.com/


Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding. 




From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Wed Apr  5 12:43:39 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:43:39 -0700
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript/DOM columns solutions/ideas?
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A35@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> The issue is that they are organized *vertically* in columns, 
> not horizontally (they read up and
> down, like a newspaper article with columns - not left to right). 

are the columns independent, or would removing an item in column two
require columns three and four to flow backwards?

is changing the flow an option?

spinhead


From anthony at baratta.com  Wed Apr  5 12:52:06 2006
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Wed,  5 Apr 2006 10:52:06 -0700
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript/DOM columns solutions/ideas?
Message-ID: <b2717a652bd9a6f9deacc6a8b0022413@baratta.com>

If you are thinking AJAX, then the re-ordering can be done on the server side and sent back to the browser with the proper layout, and plopped into place.

If you want to reorder via the client side, store the "list" as an XML tree in the "flow" order, pinch out the element you want to remove and then use the changed XML tree to rebuild the column list.

At first pass, I'd try floating divs, iterating through the xml list grabbing every X number in the list based on how many columns you have. Or of you don't care about total number of columns wide, just care about how many rows there are - it's just like a pagination problem, calc how may columns you will need (e.g. pages) and re-order the list from there.



From david at gigawatt.com  Wed Apr  5 13:15:49 2006
From: david at gigawatt.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:15:49 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
References: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg>
Message-ID: <002d01c658dc$f7e61be0$020010ac@cylon>

Hi Lisa!

Birdie <bird at koolfish.com> wrote:
> Has anyone got any good or bad things to say about the hosting at
> http://www.theplanet.com/ particularly about the dedicated servers
> and the response of technical support.
>
> Thanks
>
> Lisa

www.Evolt.org has been hosted at ServerMatrix.com, which is a 
product/division of ThePlanet.com (their low-end service, I believe :-)) 
for about a year now along with, of course, this mailing list :-)

I can't say anything helpful about their support response time, as I've 
never needed to open a support ticket.  Downtime has been all but 
nonexistent.  There've been a few scheduled network maintenance periods 
of a bout 2-4 hours in the middle of the night (US night, that is...). 
Network performance has been excellent: great bandwidth, low latency.

My only negative experience with them was an $10/month price hike that 
came with only about a month's notice.  Evolt runs on their bargain 
basement dedicated server and, due to us getting in on a special they 
were running at the time (back when they *had* specials -- lately their 
specials are, well, not so special...) and a 6-month prepayment discount 
(which is also no longer advertised, but you should ask a sales rep) we 
only paid $59 per month originally.

I was really aggravated when they bumped that up to $69 so suddenly, but 
it's still a helluva good deal!  It's essentially the same hardware and 
service for which they're charging um... $199/month -- at the moment.

Best compliment I can give to a hosting provider: it "just works"!

-dave






From david at gigawatt.com  Wed Apr  5 13:27:10 2006
From: david at gigawatt.com (David Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:27:10 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501c658de$8d9d7b50$020010ac@cylon>

Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hershel Robinson wote:
>> Just saw this today:
>> http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/
>
> Steady on! Lightbox is a very cool script, no doubt, but it has
> nothing to do with AJAX, let's not confuse matters.
>
> AJAX means using XMLHTTPRequest to talk to the server, all lightbox
> does is load an image.


if you view the source on that page, notice:

 <script src="js/prototype.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
 <script src="js/scriptaculous.js?load=effects" 
type="text/javascript"></script>
 <script src="js/lightbox.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

The Prototype [http://prototype.conio.net/] and Scriptaculous 
[http://script.aculo.us/] (which extends Prototype) are certainly the on 
the cutting edge of free, open source, standards-compliant and 
cross-browser AJAX capable Javascript libraries.

They also include lots of advanced (and cool) DOM visual effects, which 
may or may not be used with XmlHttpRequest or XML data, so if (and I 
haven't checked) his lightbox.js does actually *use* those two other 
libraries, I'd certainly characterize it as "Web 2.0" even if it's 
neither strictly asynchronous nor using any actual xml data... :-)

-dave 



From julian.rickards at ndm.gov.on.ca  Wed Apr  5 13:38:09 2006
From: julian.rickards at ndm.gov.on.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:38:09 -0400
Subject: [thelist] SUSPECT: RE:  Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
Message-ID: <5178736BD089DB449F4A4DD9D3D3C27D11F17E@LRCPSUDCMXMB001.lrc.ad.gov.on.ca>

Is anyone on this list involved in the management of the TOEvolt.org domain? If so, can they have a look at TOEvolt.org and remove the redirect to Cliterati.co.uk. (Yes, the name of the domain is indicative of the content on the site that TOEvolters would be redirected to.)

Jules

-----Original Message-----

www.Evolt.org has been hosted at ServerMatrix.com, which is a 
product/division of ThePlanet.com (their low-end service, I believe :-)) 
for about a year now along with, of course, this mailing list :-)


From jdowdell at adobe.com  Wed Apr  5 13:42:38 2006
From: jdowdell at adobe.com (John Dowdell)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:42:38 -0700
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>

Christian Heilmann wrote:
> Steady on! Lightbox is a very cool script, no doubt, but it has
> nothing to do with AJAX, let's not confuse matters.
> AJAX means using XMLHTTPRequest to talk to the server, all lightbox
> does is load an image.

I think you're both right.

Sometimes I use "AJaX", or "literal Ajax" to refer to JavaScript apps 
which refresh text via XmlHttpRequest, while using "Ajax" or "literary 
Ajax" to refer to the whole marketing movement around the term.

People mean both things by this term these days.

jd





-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


From john at userfrenzy.com  Wed Apr  5 13:55:04 2006
From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:55:04 +0100
Subject: [thelist] SUSPECT: RE:  Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
In-Reply-To: <5178736BD089DB449F4A4DD9D3D3C27D11F17E@LRCPSUDCMXMB001.lrc.ad.gov.on.ca>
References: <5178736BD089DB449F4A4DD9D3D3C27D11F17E@LRCPSUDCMXMB001.lrc.ad.gov.on.ca>
Message-ID: <44341288.5020507@userfrenzy.com>

Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:
> Is anyone on this list involved in the management of the 
 > TOEvolt.org domain? If so, can they have a look at TOEvolt.org
 > and remove the redirect

Erk.

Fixed.



-- 
-------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

E  john at handelaar.org    T +353 21 427 9033
M  +353 85 748 3790    http://handelaar.org
-------------------------------------------
Work in progress: http://dev.vocalvoter.com
-------------------------------------------


From julian.rickards at ndm.gov.on.ca  Wed Apr  5 13:57:58 2006
From: julian.rickards at ndm.gov.on.ca (Rickards, Julian (NDM))
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:57:58 -0400
Subject: [thelist] SUSPECT: RE:  Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
Message-ID: <5178736BD089DB449F4A4DD9D3D3C27D11F180@LRCPSUDCMXMB001.lrc.ad.gov.on.ca>

Many thanks. I wrote to this list many times but each time I used the word H-acked in it and it was held back for administrative review before my post went out.

(You may see it again once it has been approved.)

Jules

-----Original Message-----
Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:
> Is anyone on this list involved in the management of the 
 > TOEvolt.org domain? If so, can they have a look at TOEvolt.org
 > and remove the redirect

Erk.

Fixed.


From fuzzy2k at pacbell.net  Wed Apr  5 14:39:00 2006
From: fuzzy2k at pacbell.net (Michael Sprague)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [thelist] PDF page with close button,
	maybe using frames? was Re: PDF page with close button
Message-ID: <20060405193900.67442.qmail@web82008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes.  Even though there is a Perfectly Reasonable Close Button in the Top Right, or in a few isolated cases, Top Left corner of the browser window.  
   
  I have given up trying to understand why those easy options are too much for some people to grasp.
  
thelist-request at lists.evolt.org wrote:
    ------------------------------
Subject: Re: [thelist] PDF page with close button

Even though there is a close button in the top right-hand corner of the
browser window?


Have you got access to a server-side scripting technology? If so, you
could specify an id for each PDF, and then display the appropriate PDF
according to the id. So, your anchor tag would look something like the
following:


The file pdfFrame.asp (or php, or whichever technology you're using)
would then have some logic along the following lines:

// Get id from querystring
// Find pdf filename for id from data structure (text file, database,
array etc.)
// Output HTML, including the correct PDF file path as a frame src
attribute value

It would be possible using similar logic to that shown above, but you
would have to work very hard to make it accessible. Instead of
outputting the HTML, though, you could use the DOM to change the value
of the src attribute of the frame to reflect the path to the PDF. Ensure
that you do not allow XSS exploits if you take this route
.

Personally, I would argue that (IMHO) a PDF is not a webpage, and trying
to treat it as such will lead to nothing but woe. Don't forget that a
system like this will only work for browsers that are configured to
display a PDF, the rest will only offer a download anyway.
  
If I had access to asp or php in this environment, then I would not be doing this page- they would give it to someone with knowledge of those environments.
   
  Thanks for the response.  I will keep looking.


Michael Sprague 
  310.497.7850 c
  608.541.6532 fax
   
  Serving the interweb since 1995.


From mwarden at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 14:55:18 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 15:55:18 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX pains - why is Safari being bitchy?
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604050941q6fc7c01dw321551f20040270d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30bd6ffd0604050347y7fd6fe69l3fd4a90af6dac383@mail.gmail.com>	<4433E2DE.5070207@gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604050941q6fc7c01dw321551f20040270d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <443420A6.5060603@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christian Heilmann wrote:
>>Safari's cache logic is borked. Until they fix it, I've been forcing
>>Safari to avoid its cache. Not exactly the best option in a lot of
>>cases, but since you're trying to make the request unique anyway, sounds
>>like this might be for you.
>>
>>Before you call send():
>>
>>request.setRequestHeader('If-Modified-Since',
>>        'Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00:00:00 GMT');
> 
> 
> Does that fix the status thing as well?

The undefined status bug is a result of the page being pulled from
cache. See:

http://www.google.com/search?q=safari+xmlhttprequest+undefined+status

- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From mwarden at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 15:07:52 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:07:52 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <44342398.5040409@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John Dowdell wrote:
> People mean both things by this term [ajax] these days.

Which is a shame, because it's very clear what 'ajax' stands for. We
have an acronymn for the other stuff: dhtml (or dom).


- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 15:22:27 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 21:22:27 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <44342398.5040409@gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <44342398.5040409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604051322v79be6824q44cafe0edd7b18a1@mail.gmail.com>

> John Dowdell wrote:
> > People mean both things by this term [ajax] these days.
>
> Which is a shame, because it's very clear what 'ajax' stands for. We
> have an acronymn for the other stuff: dhtml (or dom).

+1

just including prototype followed by an alert('hello world'); doesn't
make a script AJAX. And especially fading and moving and zooming
doesn't. This is DHTML.

It took us quite a while to get JavaScript up to a recognised
development skill, let's not confuse matters by mixing and matching
terminology or even repeat the mistakes of the past. A interface that
_needs_  JavaScript to work is just not clever, no matter how fancy it
looks.


From ian at zstudio.co.uk  Wed Apr  5 16:42:06 2006
From: ian at zstudio.co.uk (Ian Anderson)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:42:06 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
Message-ID: <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>

John Dowdell wrote:

> People mean both things by this term these days.

It's easy to understand why people get this mixed up. The whole point is 
that you often can't see true AJAX working. It's the opposite of sexy.

-- geek to manager: "Wow, look, did you see that? The page didn't reload!"

-- manager: "Mmmm. Great!" (shuffles towards exit)

Coupled with the fact that as in the case of draggable sort order 
widgets or Google maps, the AJAX part is usually physically - and very 
visually - associated with cool UI tricks that are based on prototype.js 
and similar DHTML effects.

Try showing your business types the draggable widgets which may 
incidentally talk to the server asynchronously, and boy are they all 
over you like a cheap suit. "When can we have this? We need slidey 
things. Now."

I agree with Christian and others that we should not confuse ourselves 
and others even more by calling things AJAX which are not, though.

What's needed is a sexy, Web 2.0 sort of name for the DHTML UI tricks - 
I think these are actually really important going forward from here. The 
real appeal of the new applications comes from the general leap in 
usability they offer, which is partly due to the finer-grained 
communication delivered by AJAX (or Flash) asynchronous server calls 
without page refresh, and partly to the more intuitive, natural UI 
conventions that are now reliable, mainstream, cross-browser techniques.

Yes, the latter are formally DHTML, but you don't want to be talking 
about DHTML in this millennium. The term carries too much derogatory 
baggage, in my opinion.

-- 
_________________________________________________
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net



From chris at lwcdial.net  Wed Apr  5 16:57:21 2006
From: chris at lwcdial.net (Chris Hayes)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:57:21 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
References: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg><1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>
	<4433C8CD.6040603@hondaswap.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c658fc$5df2bd70$152ca8c0@CHILLI>

From: "Brian Cummiskey" <Brian at hondaswap.com>
Subject: Re: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/


>  Half the time i have a ticket open 
> before i even know anything is down.

It's down half the time ?




From codepo8 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 17:07:08 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:07:08 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>

> Yes, the latter are formally DHTML, but you don't want to be talking
> about DHTML in this millennium. The term carries too much derogatory
> baggage, in my opinion.

^ Thank you, that makes all the flak I got for my from DHTML to DOM
Scripting article worth while.
http://icant.co.uk/articles/from-dhtml-to-dom/

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From Brian at hondaswap.com  Wed Apr  5 18:56:23 2006
From: Brian at hondaswap.com (Brian Cummiskey)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:56:23 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Hosting :http://www.theplanet.com/
In-Reply-To: <009c01c658fc$5df2bd70$152ca8c0@CHILLI>
References: <0IX90071S0KXT2H0@kbsmtao2.starhub.net.sg><1144244100.6912.3.camel@mark>	<4433C8CD.6040603@hondaswap.com>
	<009c01c658fc$5df2bd70$152ca8c0@CHILLI>
Message-ID: <44345927.6080704@hondaswap.com>

Chris Hayes wrote:
> 
> It's down half the time ?


No, and my server has been up for some 500+ days too.

We had a problem with apache locking up a while back.  turned out stuff 
we were running wasn't compatible with 2.0, so we went back to 1.3.




From steven.streight at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 19:20:36 2006
From: steven.streight at gmail.com (Steven Streight)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:20:36 -0500
Subject: [thelist] e book on blog
Message-ID: <fad66b420604051720y68192121q66be70d25edb246a@mail.gmail.com>

I want to display an ebook download link on my Vaspers the Grate blog, where
a visitor pays to get the ebook. The ebook will be my original content.

I think Adobe PDF is the way to go. But not sure how to begin.

Anybody have any suggestions, or links to info for me?

--
Steven Streight aka Vaspers the Grate
Web Usability. Blogs. IT Audit/Control. Social Media.

Vaspers the Grate
http://www.vaspersthegrate.blogspot.com

Revolutionary Army of the Infant Blog
http://techrepublic.com.com/5247-6257-0.html

Blog Revolution Custom Search Engine
http://blog-revolution-search-engine-swicki.eurekster.com

SKYPE: vaspersthegrate


From thelist at cjmarsh.com  Wed Apr  5 20:10:29 2006
From: thelist at cjmarsh.com (Chris Marsh)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 02:10:29 +0100
Subject: [thelist] PDF page with close button,
	maybe using frames? was Re: PDF page with close button
In-Reply-To: <20060405193900.67442.qmail@web82008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c65916$e5c14900$0200000a@CJMLTP01>

Michael

[..]

> If I had access to asp or php in this environment, then I 
> would not be doing this page- they would give it to someone 
> with knowledge of those environments.
>    
>   Thanks for the response.  I will keep looking.

Take a look at the code (view source) at
<http://www.cjmarsh.com/temp/test.htm>. Try
<http://www.cjmarsh.com/temp/test.htm?id=3>, changing the value of id from 1
to 6. Outside this range, the top frame defaults to Test1.htm. Does this
point you in the right direction for a solution to your issue?

To make the solution accessible, just have a direct link to your PDF
documents from the href attribute of your anchor tag, and use javascript to
launch your framed solution, thus:

<a href='Test1.pdf' target='_blank' onclick='window.open("Frame.htm?id=1");
return false;'>Click</a><br />
<a href='Test2.pdf' target='_blank' onclick='window.open("Frame.htm?id=2");
return false;'>Click</a><br />
<a href='Test3.pdf' target='_blank' onclick='window.open("Frame.htm?id=3");
return false;'>Click</a><br />
<a href='Test4.pdf' target='_blank' onclick='window.open("Frame.htm?id=4");
return false;'>Click</a><br />

HTH

Regards

Chris Marsh

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 05/04/2006
 



From evoltlist at delime.com  Wed Apr  5 20:41:55 2006
From: evoltlist at delime.com (M. Seyon)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 21:41:55 -0400
Subject: [thelist] e book on blog
In-Reply-To: <fad66b420604051720y68192121q66be70d25edb246a@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20060405214040.01e449a8@mx.delime.com>

Message from Steven Streight (4/5/2006 07:20 PM)

>I want to display an ebook download link on my Vaspers the Grate blog, where
>a visitor pays to get the ebook. The ebook will be my original content.
>
>I think Adobe PDF is the way to go. But not sure how to begin.
>
>Anybody have any suggestions, or links to info for me?

Maybe lulu.com?
http://www.lulu.com/help/node/view/1714

regards.
-marc


--
Trinidad Carnival in all its photographic glory. Playyuhself.com
http://www.playyuhself.com/


From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Wed Apr  5 22:11:23 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 20:11:23 -0700
Subject: [thelist] e book on blog
In-Reply-To: <fad66b420604051720y68192121q66be70d25edb246a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fad66b420604051720y68192121q66be70d25edb246a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <443486DB.2080701@neptunewebworks.com>

Steven Streight wrote:
> I want to display an ebook download link on my Vaspers the Grate blog, where
> a visitor pays to get the ebook. The ebook will be my original content.
> I think Adobe PDF is the way to go. But not sure how to begin.
> Anybody have any suggestions, or links to info for me?

Any commerce software support downloadable products should suffice 
(GIYF).  Customer clicks a link, fills in payment info, they get a 
download page and/or email with download link.  If you're concerned 
about customers distributing unlicensed copies, you might want to look 
into PDF ebook/DRM features -- though generally that requires a copy of 
Acrobat, not just Reader, so you may not feel it worthwhile.  IIRC Adobe 
Acrobat Pro has tools for secured PDF's built-in, and Google has a lot 
to say on this too:
http://www.google.com/search?q=copy+protect+pdf

-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From pixelmech at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  5 12:50:06 2006
From: pixelmech at yahoo.com (Tom Dell'Aringa)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [thelist] JavaScript/DOM columns solutions/ideas?
Message-ID: <20060405175006.36216.qmail@web51408.mail.yahoo.com>

It's the latter, the columns must flow whatever way it needs to, depending on where you added or
subtracted an item (or items) from. Not sure what you mean by changing the flow, so far they want
it vertical if that is what you mean (horizontal would be a piece of cake)

Tom

On 4/5/06, Canfield, Joel <JCanfield at pacadvantage.org> wrote:

    > The issue is that they are organized *vertically* in columns,
    > not horizontally (they read up and
    > down, like a newspaper article with columns - not left to right).

    are the columns independent, or would removing an item in column two
    require columns three and four to flow backwards?

    is changing the flow an option?

    spinhead

http://www.pixelmech.com/
http://www.crossandthrone.com/


Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding. 




From steven.streight at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 00:42:31 2006
From: steven.streight at gmail.com (Steven Streight)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:42:31 -0500
Subject: [thelist] e book on blog
In-Reply-To: <443486DB.2080701@neptunewebworks.com>
References: <fad66b420604051720y68192121q66be70d25edb246a@mail.gmail.com>
	<443486DB.2080701@neptunewebworks.com>
Message-ID: <fad66b420604052242u344c8e1pd45535b16bd9479b@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Marc and Max, two long time friends on this list.

Will check out your links. Lulu looks very good to me. In fact, I think I'll
try Lulu with a collection of my science fiction stories, as an experiment.

My other books are on the topics of blogs and web usability.


From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 00:44:10 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:44:10 +0300
Subject: [thelist] cron job for crawling web pages
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>

Hi List,

The current project I'm working on requires connecting to certain provider
sites and storing the raw html from those sites for later processing.

Note that what the project is not illegal or unethical, since the content
provider sites will accept us to crawl them.

Secondly, the provider sites does not give xml feed of any sort; no rss no
nothing.
We have to grab the data and mine it manually.

Now comes the questions:

Given that we will be using some *nix distribution (fedora core5 most
probably), mySQL for the storage part, and again most probably apache as the
web server and ruby on rails with ajax for the MVC structure (wow!)

What technology will be apropriate here?
imho, writing a servlet and calling it periodically with cron job would do
it.
can it done with ruby? If so how hard would that be?
I believe java is much better in terms of low-level networking capabilities
than ruby but I am not sure because I'm not as experienced in rails as I am
in java.

Secondly, though I theoretically can deduce what to do; I have not worked
with a unix distribution for a long long time (I'm more of a
win*server/sqlserver/.net guy)
How hard will my life be? What should I expect as the unexpected?

And finally, I will be running VMWare on my local machine (cuz I do not want
to mess my win2k os since I'm developing .net projects there) Have you used
it to deploy a *nix distribution. Did it cause any problems?

Thank you very much in advance,
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/
<http://www.sarmal.com/>


From steven.streight at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 00:46:21 2006
From: steven.streight at gmail.com (Steven Streight)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:46:21 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Plone vs. Mambo
Message-ID: <fad66b420604052246y8b26c4fq9e93d01683175af9@mail.gmail.com>

I have a client who wants to move CMS from Mambo to some other service. They
are seriously considering Double Knot. I am looking into Plone or Drupal.

Take a look at wdboyce [dot] org for the client site, a local Boy Scout
council in Peoria, IL. They wish to have a calendar with links to event
pages and greater flexibility with images and layout.

Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

--
Steven Streight aka Vaspers the Grate
Web Usability. Blogs. IT Audit/Control. Social Media.

http://www.vaspersthegrate.blogspot.com

http://techrepublic.com.com/5247-6257-0.html

http://blog-revolution-search-engine-swicki.eurekster.com

SKYPE: vaspersthegrate


From Anthony at Baratta.com  Thu Apr  6 02:04:50 2006
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:04:50 -0700
Subject: [thelist] [SPAM]  cron job for crawling web pages
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4434BD92.6010100@Baratta.com>

What are you going to process the pages for? If you use Swish-e, you can 
spider the pages and index them into an index file or mySQL.

http://swish-e.org/

Either way, the perl script that does the spidering could be tweaked to 
not run the HTML through Swish-e and store that for what every 
processing you want to do later.

Hope that helps.


From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 02:41:54 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:41:54 +0300
Subject: [thelist] [SPAM] cron job for crawling web pages
In-Reply-To: <4434BD92.6010100@Baratta.com>
References: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4434BD92.6010100@Baratta.com>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604060041j496b6bf7sea0918ecd0231789@mail.gmail.com>

2006/4/6, Anthony Baratta <Anthony at baratta.com>:
>
> What are you going to process the pages for? If you use Swish-e, you can
> spider the pages and index them into an index file or mySQL.


I will be crawling three or four large sites which have a lot of traffic.
The sites basically post sector-related info, news, and job ads - other
valuable content and are updated at least on an hourly basis.

I cannot give much detail about the business model though. Because it is a
confidential data until the first beta of this site I'm working on launches.

http://swish-e.org/


Thanks, I'll give that a try. But first I need to get my hands dirty with
fedora.

Cheers,
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/


From hassan at webtuitive.com  Thu Apr  6 03:41:08 2006
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:41:08 -0700
Subject: [thelist] cron job for crawling web pages
In-Reply-To: <dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4434D424.4060802@webtuitive.com>

VOLKAN ?Z?EL?K wrote:

> The current project I'm working on requires connecting to certain provider
> sites and storing the raw html from those sites for later processing.

> Given that we will be using some *nix distribution ...

Probably available with your distro: <http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/>

> And finally, I will be running VMWare on my local machine (cuz I do not want
> to mess my win2k os since I'm developing .net projects there) Have you used
> it to deploy a *nix distribution. Did it cause any problems?

I use VMWare to run instances of XP and W2K on my SuSE machine so
that may not be exactly analogous, but it works great :-)

FWIW!
-- 
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
                opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com
				
                          dream.  code.




From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 04:29:48 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:29:48 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>

On 05/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, the latter are formally DHTML, but you don't want to be talking
> > about DHTML in this millennium. The term carries too much derogatory
> > baggage, in my opinion.
>
> ^ Thank you, that makes all the flak I got for my from DHTML to DOM
> Scripting article worth while.
> http://icant.co.uk/articles/from-dhtml-to-dom/


Oi!  Flash also carries similar derogatory baggage, do we need a new
buzzword for using Flash well?

It's fine to say something is DOM Scripting if it actually use the DOM, but
not if your doing non-DOM DHTML unobtrusivesly, that would be lying.

-- LK


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 05:07:53 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 11:07:53 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>

> > > Yes, the latter are formally DHTML, but you don't want to be talking
> > > about DHTML in this millennium. The term carries too much derogatory
> > > baggage, in my opinion.
> >
> > ^ Thank you, that makes all the flak I got for my from DHTML to DOM
> > Scripting article worth while.
> > http://icant.co.uk/articles/from-dhtml-to-dom/

> Oi!  Flash also carries similar derogatory baggage, do we need a new
> buzzword for using Flash well?

Flash is a product name. DHTML or DOM scripting isn't.
I do hire Flash designers and Flash developers or Flash Application
Developers though, so there is a difference in that.

> It's fine to say something is DOM Scripting if it actually use the DOM, but
> not if your doing non-DOM DHTML unobtrusivesly, that would be lying.

How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive Scripting?
Even if it is DOM-1?


From escalonab at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 05:20:37 2006
From: escalonab at gmail.com (Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 03:20:37 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries, quotes, and AUTO_INCREMENT
Message-ID: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>

Hello dear list,

I am desperate. This was supposed to be a simple upgrade, but I've
been running into so many MySQL problems its not even funny. My most
recent frustration has to do with single and double quotes.

(A)

I am inserting photo descriptions into a MySQL table, but the problem
is that these descriptions sometimes have single quotes (example: this
is a picture of john's foot) and sometimes double quotes (example: the
src parameter in a link tag).

I solved the problem where single quotes break my MySQL queries by
using double quotes in the query instead of single quotes, like such:

$query = "INSERT INTO photo_db VALUES (\"\", \"".$i."\",
\"".$images[$i][0].".jpg\", \"".$images[$i][1]."\",
\"".$images[$i][2]."\", \"".$images[$i][3]."\",
\"".$images[$i][4]."\", \"".$category."\")";

But of course now my query breaks if $images[$i][2] (the description)
has double quotes in it. This is so dumb and obvious and i feel i
should know the solution.. but i don?t :(

(B)

Second problem: has to do with deleting entries of a table when you
have the primary key as AUTO_INCREMENT.

Seems that when deleting rows, the primary keys of the deleted rows
aren't automatically re-used when new rows are inserted. This creates
major chaos and confusion. I "shifted up" (or down, if you will) the
remaining rows to close the gap manually. Then when i inserted new
rows it continued with the old sequence numbering, leaving a gap
again. This increased the already existing chaos and confusion.

I googled some and found that this behaviour depends on whether your
tables are of the type BDB, MyISAM, or InnoDB. Unfortunately I have no
idea what engine my server uses and have really no understanding of
these db types all together.

Can anyone please enlighten me?

--
___________________________________________
Bernardo Escalona Espinosa
  handy: 0176 / 24 82 35 34
  http://www.bernsonline.com/


From dcsquare at myrealbox.com  Thu Apr  6 06:12:04 2006
From: dcsquare at myrealbox.com (Dan CRACIUN)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:12:04 +0300
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries, quotes, and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4434F784.6040703@myrealbox.com>

Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa wrote:

  > Second problem: has to do with deleting entries of a table when you
> have the primary key as AUTO_INCREMENT.
> 
> Seems that when deleting rows, the primary keys of the deleted rows
> aren't automatically re-used when new rows are inserted. This creates
> major chaos and confusion. I "shifted up" (or down, if you will) the
> remaining rows to close the gap manually. Then when i inserted new
> rows it continued with the old sequence numbering, leaving a gap
> again. This increased the already existing chaos and confusion.

After you finish your operations on that table, copy the table to 
another table (structure+data), drop the original table then copy back 
the table on the old name. You'll have your auto-incremented ID without 
gaps.

Best,
Dan



From hershelr at netvision.net.il  Thu Apr  6 06:26:39 2006
From: hershelr at netvision.net.il (Hershel Robinson)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:26:39 +0300
Subject: [thelist] Volunteer to Convert Video
Message-ID: <4434FAEF.8030200@netvision.net>

A small non-profit organization whom I assist has a video in MPG format 
which we need converted into Real Player streaming video format. The 
host who hosts their site (gratis) has Real Player available to stream 
video.

Could anyone volunteer to convert the video for me? I don't really know 
anything about video.

Thank you.

--
Gallery Robinson Web Services
http://web.galleryrobinson.com/


From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 06:37:00 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 07:37:00 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries, quotes, and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4434FD5C.10503@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa wrote:

> (B)
> 
> Second problem: has to do with deleting entries of a table when you
> have the primary key as AUTO_INCREMENT.
> 
> Seems that when deleting rows, the primary keys of the deleted rows
> aren't automatically re-used when new rows are inserted. This creates
> major chaos and confusion.

No, it would cause major chaos and confusion if they *were* reused,
especially since MySQL doesn't enforce referential integrity.

> I "shifted up" (or down, if you will) the
> remaining rows to close the gap manually. Then when i inserted new
> rows it continued with the old sequence numbering, leaving a gap
> again. This increased the already existing chaos and confusion.
> 
> I googled some and found that this behaviour depends on whether your
> tables are of the type BDB, MyISAM, or InnoDB. Unfortunately I have no
> idea what engine my server uses and have really no understanding of
> these db types all together.
> 
> Can anyone please enlighten me?

Why do the gaps bother you? auto_increment is only a way to ensure you
have a unique identifier. If you need something that has some semantics
behind it, might I suggest another field, e.g.:

id        int     auto_increment   pk
foo       varchar(255)
priority  int     not null

A warning: your shifting can cause some serious serious problems with
your data integrity. If you're going to do that, make sure you have
table locks first.

- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 06:38:49 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:38:49 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote
>
> > It's fine to say something is DOM Scripting if it actually use the DOM,
> but
> > not if your doing non-DOM DHTML unobtrusivesly, that would be lying.
>
> How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive Scripting?
> Even if it is DOM-1?


Hmm, let's see...

<a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 'picture.jpg');"><img
src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>

perhaps?

Really contrived, but showPicture could be:

function showPicture(elem, src)
{
  if(typeof elem.innerHTML == 'undefined')
  {
    elem.innerHTML = '<img src='"+src+"' />';
    return false;
  }
  return true;
}

Okay, that's a pretty lousy example (I'm really ashamed of it already), but
it's unobtrusive i.e. javacript is not breaking the page.

I might have misunderstood the DOM Scripting message, but I thought one
factor was to discourage the use of innerHTML (which is not DOM).  Purists
would say that if you use innerHTML, it's not pure DOM Scripting.

On the other hand, it would be futile to avoid getElementById() or
getElementsByTagName() in this day and age in order to use innerHTML, so
yeah, DHTML with absolutely no use of the DOM is unlikely.  I was being
picky.

-- LK


From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 06:42:52 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 07:42:52 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/06, Lee kowalkowski <lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive Scripting?
> > Even if it is DOM-1?
>
>
> Hmm, let's see...
>
> <a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 'picture.jpg');"><img
> src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>

That is the part that is not unobtrusive. There should not be JS in
the markup. I think this is where Christian is confused, because
typically you'd do:

var foo = document.getElementById('...');
if (foo) foo.onclick = function() { showPicture('picture.jpg'); };

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From tk at seso.at  Thu Apr  6 07:04:58 2006
From: tk at seso.at (seso | thomas korosa)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:04:58 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Server-Side generation of flv-files
Message-ID: <BEECLIDLDIKFNMEJGLEPGEIDCBAA.tk@seso.at>

For numerous reasons, it'd come in handy for me to create .flv-files
serverside on the fly.

Flash Communication Server is not an option in this special case. Now i know
that the Sorenson Encoder can create .flv's, as can the Riva Encoder.

I'm looking for a command-line driven tool for linux which provides similar
functionality (resize, create from mpeg2, crop, pad, ...).

Does anyone know how this can be done?



From rob.smith at lexjet.com  Thu Apr  6 07:26:36 2006
From: rob.smith at lexjet.com (Rob Smith)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:26:36 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Dev Connections
Message-ID: <25A592EB84583B48A16B86A25F56E7CE019D2654@lesjetcorp01.lexjetcorp.com>

Hi List,

I just got back from the Dev Connections conference in Orlando, FL
covering SharePoint, ASP.NET, and SQL Server 2005. While I didn't do the
ASP.NET track, I hovered mostly in the 2005 and then a little in
SharePoint. Lots of cool stuff collected so if you have any questions...

On a humorous note, I got a free t-shirt for stumping the 12 Microsoft
Group Project Managers about this question: "What was the reasoning
behind the assumption that when I imported views from 2000 to 2005 using
the import wizard that you conveniently converted them to tables for me?
I don't want that and there's no way around it aside from manually
creating them. Copy and paste doesn't work."

Rob Smith
LexJet
rob.smith at lexjet.com
http://www.lexjet.com
(800)453-9538
(941)330-1210 Int'l
(941)330-1220 Fax
1680 Fruitville Road, 3rd Floor
Sarasota, FL 34236



From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 07:28:56 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:28:56 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>

> > > How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive Scripting?
> > > Even if it is DOM-1?

> > Hmm, let's see...
> >
> > <a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 'picture.jpg');"><img
> > src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>
>
> That is the part that is not unobtrusive. There should not be JS in
> the markup. I think this is where Christian is confused, because
> typically you'd do:
> var foo = document.getElementById('...');
> if (foo) foo.onclick = function() { showPicture('picture.jpg'); };

Exactly. Unobtrusive JavaScript should be unobtrusive to both the user
and the maintainer. Mixing HTML and JavaScript is just lazy and
expects a lot more from a site maintainer than is necessary.


Chris

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 08:03:06 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:03:06 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604050333m38bba2a7g51696614081e485a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive
> Scripting?
> > > > Even if it is DOM-1?


OK, how do you not use the DOM to do DHTML these days?

> > <a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 'picture.jpg
> ');"><img
> > > src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>
> >
> > That is the part that is not unobtrusive.  There should not be JS in
> > the markup.

Exactly. Unobtrusive JavaScript should be unobtrusive to both the user
> and the maintainer.


Moving the coupling between presentation and behaviour to your JavaScript is
no easier to maintain (or harder).  The benefits are generally academic.
*Except* for generic scripts that are designed for easy reuse, but most
scripts depend on some form of hook into the markup.

-- LK


From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 08:15:50 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:15:50 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
	<443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/06, Lee kowalkowski <lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Moving the coupling between presentation and behaviour to your JavaScript is
> no easier to maintain (or harder).  The benefits are generally academic.
> *Except* for generic scripts that are designed for easy reuse, but most
> scripts depend on some form of hook into the markup.

I've heard this argument before. Rewind three years, and replace
"JavaScript" with "CSS".

There is no "hook" in the markup. There are identifiers and class
names and DOM structure, but these things have no more to do with JS
than they do for CSS. If we accept that inline CSS is a Bad Thing(tm),
I don't see why it's such a leap to accept the same for inline JS.

Thanks,

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 08:16:49 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:16:49 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <44340F9E.2020505@adobe.com>
	<443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060616i260637c1jf0b841e1be2c5f51@mail.gmail.com>

> OK, how do you not use the DOM to do DHTML these days?

Who claimed I wanted to do that? The DOM is there to reach things in
the markup with it. Why add your code in the markup and mix structure
and behaviour when you don't have to?

> > > <a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 'picture.jpg
> > ');"><img
> > > > src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>
> > >
> > > That is the part that is not unobtrusive.  There should not be JS in
> > > the markup.
>
> Exactly. Unobtrusive JavaScript should be unobtrusive to both the user
> > and the maintainer.
>
> Moving the coupling between presentation and behaviour to your JavaScript is
> no easier to maintain (or harder).  The benefits are generally academic.
> *Except* for generic scripts that are designed for easy reuse, but most
> scripts depend on some form of hook into the markup.

I know many CMS that allow you to apply a class to a link, but not
many (good ones that do manage content instead of create web sites)
that allow you to add own inline event handlers.

If you want to edit misspellings and get a change request every time
some content has to change be my guest, I'd rather have an editor with
a short period of training be able to add something like an image
popup in a CMS by applying a class or select a plugin than mess around
with my code.

So, yes, these are generic, but what is the use in bespoke development
of functionality that needs to be used over and over again anyways?
How many more menu scripts do we need?

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From Conleyj at kubota-kma.com  Thu Apr  6 08:29:18 2006
From: Conleyj at kubota-kma.com (James Conley)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:29:18 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
Message-ID: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Lee kowalkowski
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:39 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] AJAX Tip
> 
> On 06/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote
> >
> > > It's fine to say something is DOM Scripting if it 
> actually use the 
> > > DOM,
> > but
> > > not if your doing non-DOM DHTML unobtrusivesly, that 
> would be lying.
> >
> > How do you NOT use the DOM when you want to do unobtrusive 
> Scripting?
> > Even if it is DOM-1?
> 
> 
> Hmm, let's see...
> 
> <a href="picture.jpg" onclick="return showPicture(this, 
> 'picture.jpg');"><img src="thumbnail.jpg" /></a>
> 
> perhaps?
> 
> Really contrived, but showPicture could be:
> 
> function showPicture(elem, src)
> {
>   if(typeof elem.innerHTML == 'undefined')
>   {
>     elem.innerHTML = '<img src='"+src+"' />';
>     return false;
>   }
>   return true;
> }
> 
> Okay, that's a pretty lousy example (I'm really ashamed of it 
> already), but it's unobtrusive i.e. javacript is not breaking 
> the page.
> 
> I might have misunderstood the DOM Scripting message, but I 
> thought one factor was to discourage the use of innerHTML 
> (which is not DOM).  Purists would say that if you use 
> innerHTML, it's not pure DOM Scripting.
> 
> On the other hand, it would be futile to avoid getElementById() or
> getElementsByTagName() in this day and age in order to use 
> innerHTML, so yeah, DHTML with absolutely no use of the DOM 
> is unlikely.  I was being picky.
> 
> -- LK
> -- 

Is the innerHTML function of a document object not part of the "Document
Object Model"? 

James c.


From evolt at kasimir-k.fi  Thu Apr  6 08:55:17 2006
From: evolt at kasimir-k.fi (kasimir-k)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:55:17 +0000
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
Message-ID: <44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>

James Conley scribeva in 06/04/2006 13:29:
> Is the innerHTML function of a document object not part of the "Document
> Object Model"? 

No it isn't. It's originally a Microsoft extension, but nowadays many 
browsers support it. Purists frown on it, but it is often faster than 
the DOM way.

.k


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 09:11:05 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:11:05 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>

> > Is the innerHTML function of a document object not part of the "Document
> > Object Model"?
>
> No it isn't. It's originally a Microsoft extension, but nowadays many
> browsers support it. Purists frown on it, but it is often faster than
> the DOM way.

Arguably. It is dead handy for debugging and also for writing out a
bunch of HTML you got from  an XHR. For generating HTML it is not as
clever though, as you don't leave a trail of developed objects behind
and need to reach them again:

va bla=document.getElementById('specialLink');
bla.innerHTML='<p><a href="#">retrieve specials</a></p>';
var speciallink=bla.getElementsByTagName('a')[0];
addEvent(speciallink,'click',foo,false);

vs.

var bla=document.getElementById('specialLink');
var p=document.createElement('p');
var specialLink=document.createElement('a');
specialLink.setAttribute('href','#');
addEvent(specialLink,'click',foo,false);
p.appendChild(specialLink)
bla.appendChild(p);

If another function needs to reach that A it'll always have to do a
getElementsByTagName in the innerHTML example, in the DOM example it
can just change specialLink.

This also promotes the idea of HTML as a node tree, and not as a huge string.

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From evolt at kasimir-k.fi  Thu Apr  6 09:33:00 2006
From: evolt at kasimir-k.fi (kasimir-k)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:33:00 +0000
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi>

>>> innerHTML
>> is often faster than the DOM way.

Christian Heilmann scribeva in 06/04/2006 14:11:
> Arguably. It is dead handy for debugging and also for writing out a
> bunch of HTML you got from  an XHR.

This is actually pretty much the only situation where I use it.

> For generating HTML it is not as clever though,

Clever - no. Fast - yes. If I happen to end up with a table with 
hundreds of rows, and must manipulate it client side, I just might rely 
on innerHTML. (Naturally heavy tasks are often better done server side, 
but sometimes that is not an option.)

> This also promotes the idea of HTML as a node tree, and not as a huge string.

And this is a very worthwhile idea to promote too!

And as you mentioned XHR (and as the title of this thread has "AJAX" in 
it :-) this is good place to tell, that the XMLHttpRequest object is now 
a W3C Working Draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/

.k



From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 09:50:57 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:50:57 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060750v15a1a6afi34cc1aad5203cb96@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Matt Warden <mwarden at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is no "hook" in the markup.


Sorry Matt, I wasn't talking about hooks in the markup, I said hooks in the
code.

E.g.  Whenever you use getElementById("id"), we're expecting an element with
that ID.  So there's no maintenance difference.  Unless you're adding
all your elements in JavaScript too!

-- LK


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 10:29:10 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:29:10 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060750v15a1a6afi34cc1aad5203cb96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060750v15a1a6afi34cc1aad5203cb96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060829l3d0f5390n33670f3501f8b3b6@mail.gmail.com>

> > There is no "hook" in the markup.
> Sorry Matt, I wasn't talking about hooks in the markup, I said hooks in the
> code.
> E.g.  Whenever you use getElementById("id"), we're expecting an element with
> that ID.  So there's no maintenance difference.  Unless you're adding
> all your elements in JavaScript too!

Yes, but the difference is that these are shared among JS and CSS, and
inline event handlers would be only for JavaScript. Or are you trying
to argument that JavaScript is as easy to learn as adding some classes
and IDs and writing CSS for it?

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 10:40:02 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:40:02 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604060616i260637c1jf0b841e1be2c5f51@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net> <443439AE.3030206@zstudio.co.uk>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060616i260637c1jf0b841e1be2c5f51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060840o525b63a8le1e52ac11ffac990@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why add your code in the markup and mix structure
> and behaviour when you don't have to?

I've said this before, but onlclick="return myFunc(this)" *isn't*
mixing structure and behaviour, as long as the definition of myFunc is
externalised.  However, I admit it *is* mixing markup and *code*.

Doing getElementById('foo') is mixing structure and behaviour. 
However, it's generally unavoidable, but onclick="return myFunc(this)"
is more loosely coupled, in my opinion.

> I know many CMS that allow you to apply a class to a link, but not
> many (good ones that do manage content instead of create web sites)
> that allow you to add own inline event handlers.

I don't blame them!  I wouldn't dream of using a CMS to maintain the
functionality in a website.

> If you want to edit misspellings and get a change request every time
> some content has to change be my guest, I'd rather have an editor with
> a short period of training be able to add something like an image
> popup in a CMS by applying a class or select a plugin than mess around
> with my code.

Separation of content and markup is another thing again!  I don't edit
code to change content either, because it's all externalised using
localisation.  I know CMS systems are limited in this area (and
rightly so).

I'm starting to realise why we're having these discussions, as a web
application developer I forget the majority of people do ordinary,
content-based websites.  They can be totally different beasts. 
Absolutely, when using CMS for maintenance, any form of inline script
is totally unrecommended.

> So, yes, these are generic, but what is the use in bespoke development
> of functionality that needs to be used over and over again anyways?
> How many more menu scripts do we need?

Menu scripts?  *Shudder* (Hate them)  No, I'll give you a real world
example: In our applications we often get requirements to set focus on
the first form field on every page, of course, this is done
unobtrusively, using the DOM, and generically, so it's the exact same
script on every page.

Sorry about the confusion.  *LOL*   Yes, content authors definitely
benefit from separation of content and code, I wouldn't have it any
other way.  Developers benefit from separation of content,
presentation and behaviour (i.e. MVC).  In certain circumstances, I
would view the markup for a form for instance as an interface between
behaviour and presentation.  As long as the content is also
externalised.   That is, I couldn't imagine letting our content
authors maintain form markup when our application heavily depends on
it.

-- LK


From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 10:46:52 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:46:52 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604060829l3d0f5390n33670f3501f8b3b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060750v15a1a6afi34cc1aad5203cb96@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060829l3d0f5390n33670f3501f8b3b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604060846w767f80d0h2f88d30488f7bde7@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Or are you trying
> to argument that JavaScript is as easy to learn as adding some classes
> and IDs and writing CSS for it?

No, I assumed that the same person/team creates, owns and maintains
the JS as the CSS and the HTML, as tends to be the case in my
experience, but yeah, I'd only make these arguments when this
assumption is true.

Sorry, don't worry about it, I'm on my own planet again today!

-- LK


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 10:56:58 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:56:58 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060846w767f80d0h2f88d30488f7bde7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060615q42f33678vbbf76457fefbb697@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060750v15a1a6afi34cc1aad5203cb96@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060829l3d0f5390n33670f3501f8b3b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060846w767f80d0h2f88d30488f7bde7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604060856n670a9ba8y9bcbe2476e76f17@mail.gmail.com>

> > Or are you trying
> > to argument that JavaScript is as easy to learn as adding some classes
> > and IDs and writing CSS for it?
>
> No, I assumed that the same person/team creates, owns and maintains
> the JS as the CSS and the HTML, as tends to be the case in my
> experience, but yeah, I'd only make these arguments when this
> assumption is true.

That is dangerous thinking that leads to technology divas and people
getting stuck in the same jobs until they are so bored they have to
leave. Most of my experience is that you will never be able to fix
things you mess up in the first iteration as the budget runs out
before you can do the promised "cleanup round". Better to plan for
change and not get a nasty surprise months later when you see your own
code and wondered what kind of confused person created that crud.

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 11:02:37 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:02:37 -0400
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <610592c90604060840o525b63a8le1e52ac11ffac990@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<30bd6ffd0604051507q61034b9y9067f302a68686a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060616i260637c1jf0b841e1be2c5f51@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060840o525b63a8le1e52ac11ffac990@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604060902l4a90796fo5c8660a236c092b@mail.gmail.com>

> Sorry Matt, I wasn't talking about hooks in the markup, I said hooks in the
> code.
>
> E.g.  Whenever you use getElementById("id"), we're expecting an element with
> that ID.  So there's no maintenance difference.  Unless you're adding
> all your elements in JavaScript too!

That's actually what I figured you meant. I was just pointing out that
the "hook" is not a hook, but an id, which has nothing to do with JS
or CSS or anything else. If you only have one anchor in your entire
document, you could do: document.getElementsByTagName('a').item(0)
instead of document.getElementById('mylink'). It is simply a way of
navigating the document structure.

> I've said this before, but onlclick="return myFunc(this)" *isn't*
> mixing structure and behaviour, as long as the definition of myFunc is
> externalised.  However, I admit it *is* mixing markup and *code*.

what about this:

onclick="alert('hi');"

or maybe this?

onclick="return function() { return myFunc('foo'); };"

what about this?

onclick="return function() { if (this.value) return myFunc('foo');
else return false; };"

At what point is the definition no longer externalized?

onclick is a way of defining a behavior in response to an event, just
like defining myFunc() is defining behavior in response to that
function call.

> Doing getElementById('foo') is mixing structure and behaviour.

How is obtaining a reference to a dom element mixing structure and
behavior? When I say "structure", I'm talking about markup structure,
which is supposed to be a way of serializing a document tree. That's
why JS (and CSS) has no business within it.

> I'm starting to realise why we're having these discussions, as a web
> application developer I forget the majority of people do ordinary,
> content-based websites.  They can be totally different beasts.
> Absolutely, when using CMS for maintenance, any form of inline script
> is totally unrecommended.

I do strictly web application development, and I'm pretty sure
Christian does similar work. When systems start getting much more
complex is when separation like this becomes increasingly important
and has an increasing impact on maintenance and knowledge transfer
(e.g., during employee turnover) costs.

By the way, this is digressing into an argument we've had on this list
at least 3 times. There's more info in the archives.


--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Thu Apr  6 11:34:15 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:34:15 -0700
Subject: [thelist] not mixing markup and  whatever (was RE:  AJAX Tip)
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A54@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> onclick is a way of defining a behavior in response to an event, just
> like defining myFunc() is defining behavior in response to that
> function call.

fascinating thread, guys

matt, or whoever, can you help me out with this part and the associated
bits? is it being said that js like 'onclick' shouldn't live in the
html, but be external? I'm trying to get my head around how far we can
take the separation. Keeping CSS external makes perfect sense to me, as
do most js functions. but there are some javascript things that I'd be
totally flummoxed about making external in the same manner.

any pointers to resources that'd help? Christian, does your DHTML/DOM
article which I've bookmarked but not read cover this?

thanks again for a very educational conversation

joel


From mwarden at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 11:48:38 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:48:38 -0400
Subject: [thelist] not mixing markup and whatever (was RE: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A54@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
References: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A54@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604060948y17ee43eal38049fe8df6a2569@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/6/06, Canfield, Joel <JCanfield at pacadvantage.org> wrote:
> > onclick is a way of defining a behavior in response to an event, just
> > like defining myFunc() is defining behavior in response to that
> > function call.
>
> fascinating thread, guys
>
> matt, or whoever, can you help me out with this part and the associated
> bits? is it being said that js like 'onclick' shouldn't live in the
> html, but be external? I'm trying to get my head around how far we can
> take the separation. Keeping CSS external makes perfect sense to me, as
> do most js functions. but there are some javascript things that I'd be
> totally flummoxed about making external in the same manner.
>
> any pointers to resources that'd help? Christian, does your DHTML/DOM
> article which I've bookmarked but not read cover this?
>
> thanks again for a very educational conversation

Check out Christian's unobtrusive javascript tutorial, especially:

http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/chapter2.html

Just to give you an idea, though, here is an init function for one of
the interfaces of a scheduler I'm working on right now for a client:

/**
 * Initiates the interface. Called on window.onload
 */
function init() {
	if (!document.getElementById) return;
	
	// attach "close" function to the 'X' in the appt
	// form
	var a = document.getElementById('closeapptform');
	if (a) {
		a.onclick = closeApptForm;
	} // end if a
	
	// attach "to day view" event to table cells in month view
	// of calendar
	var caltable = document.getElementById('calendardata');
	if (caltable) {
		var tds = caltable.getElementsByTagName('td');
		for (var i=0; i<tds.length; i++) {
			if (!cssjs('check', tds[i], 'emptycell')) {
				if (cssjs('check', tds[i], 'weeklabel')) {
					tds[i].onclick = moveToWeekView;
				}
				else {
					tds[i].onclick = moveToDayView;
				}
			} // end if
		} // end for
	} // end if caltable
	
	
	// if in week view, handle expand/collapse
	var weektable = document.getElementById('weekcaldata');
	if (weektable) {
		var trs = weektable.getElementsByTagName('tr');
		for (var i=0; i<trs.length; i++) {
			if (trs[i]) {
				if (cssjs('check', trs[i], 'daydataexpanded')) {
					trs[i].onclick = collapseDayData;
					cssjs('add', trs[i], 'daydatahidden');
				}
				else if (cssjs('check', trs[i], 'daydatacondensed')) {
					trs[i].onclick = expandDayData;
				}
			}
		} // end for
	} // end if
}

cssjs() is a function written by Christian also:
http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/cssjsseparation.html

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From john at userfrenzy.com  Thu Apr  6 12:30:31 2006
From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:30:31 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Plone vs. Mambo
In-Reply-To: <fad66b420604052246y8b26c4fq9e93d01683175af9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fad66b420604052246y8b26c4fq9e93d01683175af9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44355037.8000109@userfrenzy.com>

Steven Streight wrote:
> I have a client who wants to move CMS from Mambo to some other service. They
> are seriously considering Double Knot. I am looking into Plone or Drupal.

I'd warn you that Drupal is at least a relatively simple
conversion.  Moving stuff in and out of Zope is a frickin'
nightmare in my experience.


-- 
-------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

E  john at handelaar.org    T +353 21 427 9033
M  +353 85 748 3790    http://handelaar.org
-------------------------------------------
Work in progress: http://dev.vocalvoter.com
-------------------------------------------


From mattias at thorslund.us  Thu Apr  6 12:41:35 2006
From: mattias at thorslund.us (Mattias Thorslund)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:41:35 -0700
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi>
Message-ID: <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>

kasimir-k wrote:
> Clever - no. Fast - yes. If I happen to end up with a table with 
> hundreds of rows, and must manipulate it client side, I just might rely 
> on innerHTML. (Naturally heavy tasks are often better done server side, 
> but sometimes that is not an option.)
>   

In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
tables:

Setting the innerHTML of tables (and table rows and some other table
sub-elements) is NOT supported in Internet Explorer. Setting the
innerHTML on table rows works in Firefox (didn't try on a table), but in
IE, you have to walk through each cell (TD or TH) and set their
innerHTML separately.

Not as handy, perhaps, but I suppose it guarantees that the number of
rows and columns are consistent after a change. Merged cells (colspan>1,
rowspan>1) might be a problem, too. Anyway, I had hoped to replace table
rows, updated via XHR (great new? acronym...), but had to settle for a
less "convenient" solution.

FWIW

Mattias



From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Thu Apr  6 12:52:53 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:52:53 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries, quotes, and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
References: <12d1e0910604060320w4fc05a65wb10a663d8158b341@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44355575.6000502@neptunewebworks.com>

Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa wrote:
> (A)
> I am inserting photo descriptions into a MySQL table, but the problem
> is that these descriptions sometimes have single quotes (example: this
> is a picture of john's foot) and sometimes double quotes (example: the
> src parameter in a link tag).
> I solved the problem where single quotes break my MySQL queries by
> using double quotes in the query instead of single quotes, like such:
> 
> $query = "INSERT INTO photo_db VALUES (\"\", \"".$i."\",
> \"".$images[$i][0].".jpg\", \"".$images[$i][1]."\",
> \"".$images[$i][2]."\", \"".$images[$i][3]."\",
> \"".$images[$i][4]."\", \"".$category."\")";
> 
> But of course now my query breaks if $images[$i][2] (the description)
> has double quotes in it. 

mysql_real_escape_string() is your friend!  Your query seems to be going 
through a lot of unnecessary contortions.  How about:
$imgdata = array_map('mysql_real_escape_string',$images[$i]);
$query = "INSERT INTO photo_db VALUES
   ('', '$i', '{$imgdata[0]}', '{$imgdata[1]}',
    '{$imgdata[2]}','{$imgdata[3]}',
    '{$imgdata[4]}','$category')
";
Or maybe even shorten that query string further with implode(), assuming 
each row of $images array has just the five values:
$imgs = implode("','",
   array_map('mysql_real_escape_string',$images[$i])
);
$query = "INSERT INTO photo_db VALUES
   ('', '$i', '$imgs', '$category')
";

> (B)
> Second problem: has to do with deleting entries of a table when you
> have the primary key as AUTO_INCREMENT.
> Seems that when deleting rows, the primary keys of the deleted rows
> aren't automatically re-used when new rows are inserted.

As Matt said, this is by design and is a good idea.  What difference 
does it make what value your table.id is, so long as it's unique?  When 
you delete a row, the data is gone and the storage file's size is 
accordingly smaller.  What is your rationale for wanting to reuse 
primary keys?

> I googled some and found that this behaviour depends on whether your
> tables are of the type BDB, MyISAM, or InnoDB. Unfortunately I have no
> idea what engine my server uses and have really no understanding of
> these db types all together.

RTFM. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/storage-engines.html

-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From peter at easylistbox.com  Thu Apr  6 12:52:00 2006
From: peter at easylistbox.com (Peter Brunone (EasyListBox.com))
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:52:00 -0700
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
Message-ID: <bd7012990c4c4714a48b23386e867bf9@easylistbox.com>


		Of course if you enclose the table in a div or span, you can set the innerHTML of THAT element...

				From: Mattias Thorslund mattias at thorslund.us

kasimir-k wrote:
> Clever - no. Fast - yes. If I happen to end up with a table with 
> hundreds of rows, and must manipulate it client side, I just might rely 
> on innerHTML. (Naturally heavy tasks are often better done server side, 
> but sometimes that is not an option.)
> 

In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
tables:

Setting the innerHTML of tables (and table rows and some other table
sub-elements) is NOT supported in Internet Explorer. Setting the
innerHTML on table rows works in Firefox (didn't try on a table), but in
IE, you have to walk through each cell (TD or TH) and set their
innerHTML separately.

Not as handy, perhaps, but I suppose it guarantees that the number of
rows and columns are consistent after a change. Merged cells (colspan>1,
rowspan>1) might be a problem, too. Anyway, I had hoped to replace table
rows, updated via XHR (great new? acronym...), but had to settle for a
less "convenient" solution.

FWIW

Mattias


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 12:59:17 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:59:17 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi> <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>

> In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> tables:
>
> Setting the innerHTML of tables (and table rows and some other table
> sub-elements) is NOT supported in Internet Explorer. Setting the
> innerHTML on table rows works in Firefox (didn't try on a table), but in
> IE, you have to walk through each cell (TD or TH) and set their
> innerHTML separately.

that makes the DOM approach easier. What about creating the table as
an XML string on the backend and just include it in a document via
innerHTML?

> Not as handy, perhaps, but I suppose it guarantees that the number of
> rows and columns are consistent after a change. Merged cells (colspan>1,
> rowspan>1) might be a problem, too. Anyway, I had hoped to replace table
> rows, updated via XHR (great new? acronym...),

Nah, XHR has been around for ages, I like it (excerpt from the chapter
8 of my book, finished minutes ago:

Let's go for a simpler example at first. The demo file exampleXHR.html
uses AJAX (well, without the X as there is no XML involved) to load
and display files from the server when the user clicks a link as shown
in Figure 8-2:
Insert 6803f0802.tiff
Figure 8-2 Loading external files via AJAX
The magic wand behind all of this is an object called XMLHttpRequest
or short XHR. This is a non-standard object insofar it has no mention
on the W3C site but it is supported across all modern browsers
(Safari, Mozilla/Firefox, Opera). MSIE does not support XHR, but uses
an ActiveX object instead. The good news is that it works the same
way.

Oops, I have to ammend the W3C comment now :-)
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 13:02:52 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:02:52 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <bd7012990c4c4714a48b23386e867bf9@easylistbox.com>
References: <bd7012990c4c4714a48b23386e867bf9@easylistbox.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604061102r743e31a9y411bd04baee84fa4@mail.gmail.com>

>                 Of course if you enclose the table in a div or span, you can set the innerHTML of THAT element...

And create tagsoup. SPAN is an inline element, TABLE is a block
element. I never got the fetish of .NET putting SPANs of all things
all over the document.


From steven.streight at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 13:55:50 2006
From: steven.streight at gmail.com (Steven Streight)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:55:50 -0500
Subject: [thelist] Plone vs. Mambo
In-Reply-To: <44355037.8000109@userfrenzy.com>
References: <fad66b420604052246y8b26c4fq9e93d01683175af9@mail.gmail.com>
	<44355037.8000109@userfrenzy.com>
Message-ID: <fad66b420604061155s2700b3a5lf49723d7756a4595@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, that is a huge priority I had not gotten to thinking of yet.
Plone seems to be conducive to multiple input group project collab. Seamless
integration, info foraging plug ins, and newbie user friendliness, for both
web browsing visitors and council staff update ease, are large points of
consideration here also.

Any other first hand dramas are welcome.


On 4/6/06, John Handelaar <john at userfrenzy.com> wrote:
>
> Steven Streight wrote:
> > I have a client who wants to move CMS from Mambo to some other service.
> They
> > are seriously considering Double Knot. I am looking into Plone or
> Drupal.
>
> I'd warn you that Drupal is at least a relatively simple
> conversion.  Moving stuff in and out of Zope is a frickin'
> nightmare in my experience.
>
>
>


From jono at charlestonwebsolutions.com  Thu Apr  6 14:58:54 2006
From: jono at charlestonwebsolutions.com (jono at charlestonwebsolutions.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [thelist] PHP: specify the current directory's parent
Message-ID: <64127.216.215.170.194.1144353534.squirrel@charlestonwebsolutions.com>

I am trying to set up a search function and I need to change a line of the
PHP code (below) so that the start directory is the current directory's
(".") parent.

How do I get this


$settings["options"]["start_dir"]=".";



to start in the directory above the current directory?  Being new to PHP,
I tried using $settings["options"]["start_dir"]="../";  which does not
work.

I just need to tell ["start_dir"]="."; not to start in the current
directory, but to start in the current directory's parent directory, which
is the site's root.

Am I way off here?  Anybody have an idea?  I could post the entire chunk
of PHP code, but it seems that this is something simple enough to figure
out with out the rest of the code...I could be wrong bout that?

-- 
Jono Young
Designer | Developer | Illustrator
Charleston Web Solutions
Bringing Higher Standards to the Lowcountry
http://www.charlestonwebsolutions.com


From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Thu Apr  6 15:16:00 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:16:00 -0700
Subject: [thelist] PHP: specify the current directory's parent
In-Reply-To: <64127.216.215.170.194.1144353534.squirrel@charlestonwebsolutions.com>
References: <64127.216.215.170.194.1144353534.squirrel@charlestonwebsolutions.com>
Message-ID: <44357700.4070303@neptunewebworks.com>

jono at charlestonwebsolutions.com wrote:
> $settings["options"]["start_dir"]=".";
> I just need to tell ["start_dir"]="."; not to start in the current
> directory, but to start in the current directory's parent directory, which
> is the site's root.

realpath() probably will fit the bill.
$docroot = isset($_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT'])
	 ? realpath($_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT'])
	 : realpath('../')
	 ;
$settings["options"]["start_dir"] = $docroot;
PHP as CGI on Windows doesn't set the DOCUMENT_ROOT server var, thus the 
test.  You could check for $_SERVER['PATH_TRANSLATED'] instead of 
relying on the current script's current location when DOCUMENT_ROOT is 
not set.

HTH
-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 15:47:28 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 21:47:28 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi> <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
	<30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>

> > In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> > tables:

It is even worse:

DOM generated tables will not show.
http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/msieXHRtable/exampleXMLxhr.html

This works nicely in Firefox but not in MSIE. MSIE gets and sets the
innerHTML, but the table is not shown. Is that some messed up
hasLayout thing?

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From peter at easylistbox.com  Thu Apr  6 16:02:42 2006
From: peter at easylistbox.com (Peter Brunone (EasyListBox.com))
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:02:42 -0700
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
Message-ID: <5b62355af5784051a5f2fe2e0cb4e603@easylistbox.com>


		Weird.  I've created/altered tables both ways (innerHTML and DOM), and never had this problem.

				From: "Christian Heilmann" codepo8 at gmail.com

> > In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> > tables:

It is even worse:

DOM generated tables will not show.
http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/msieXHRtable/exampleXMLxhr.html

This works nicely in Firefox but not in MSIE. MSIE gets and sets the
innerHTML, but the table is not shown. Is that some messed up
hasLayout thing?

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/


From dudrenov at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 16:05:33 2006
From: dudrenov at gmail.com (Pavel Dudrenov)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:05:33 -0700
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi> <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
	<30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10c3e4e00604061405o20863021m42a58d4fcc054912@mail.gmail.com>

To enshure that IE displays the content of a table the table needs to have a
tbody element. And put wahtever table elements you need to put in the tbody
not the table directly.

Pavel
P.S.
Avoid using innerHTML.

On 4/6/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> > > tables:
>
> It is even worse:
>
> DOM generated tables will not show.
> http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/msieXHRtable/exampleXMLxhr.html
>
> This works nicely in Firefox but not in MSIE. MSIE gets and sets the
> innerHTML, but the table is not shown. Is that some messed up
> hasLayout thing?
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
> Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
> --
>
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>


From thelist at alex.fu2k.org  Thu Apr  6 16:09:31 2006
From: thelist at alex.fu2k.org (Alex Robinson)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:09:31 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi> <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
	<30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230996c05b325a59a2@[192.168.6.27]>

>This works nicely in Firefox but not in MSIE. MSIE gets and sets the
>innerHTML, but the table is not shown. Is that some messed up
>hasLayout thing?

I don't know whether it has anything to do with the hasLayout thing, 
but the table needs to have a tbody to show up if inserted via DOM 
fiddling. Weird, but not a biggy once you know.


From codepo8 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 16:12:48 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:12:48 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <10c3e4e00604061405o20863021m42a58d4fcc054912@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>
	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>
	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>
	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi> <443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>
	<30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
	<10c3e4e00604061405o20863021m42a58d4fcc054912@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604061412j156d99dm1e2c3e35aafccff6@mail.gmail.com>

> To enshure that IE displays the content of a table the table needs to have a
> tbody element. And put wahtever table elements you need to put in the tbody
> not the table directly.

Good man!
http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/msieXHRtable/exampleXMLxhr.html


From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com  Thu Apr  6 16:50:54 2006
From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee kowalkowski)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:50:54 +0100
Subject: [thelist] AJAX Tip
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604060902l4a90796fo5c8660a236c092b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443399D1.4000201@netvision.net>
	<610592c90604060229i5c64dad5v85e77636f8a53a7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060307o74739fcep53893b21d348ccda@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060438w13d02876sfbf959cc1b30f68@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060442s35b774dbt2746f9fb46d9716d@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060528i114cf27dg14670c87a9335483@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060603l5576961fgd45197e24b6e7022@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bd6ffd0604060616i260637c1jf0b841e1be2c5f51@mail.gmail.com>
	<610592c90604060840o525b63a8le1e52ac11ffac990@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbc8fa430604060902l4a90796fo5c8660a236c092b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <610592c90604061450g69cd0525yd39b46a16b7ee17a@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/04/06, Matt Warden <mwarden at gmail.com> wrote:
> what about this:
>
> onclick="alert('hi');"
>
> or maybe this?
>
> onclick="return function() { return myFunc('foo'); };"
>
> what about this?
>
> onclick="return function() { if (this.value) return myFunc('foo');
> else return false; };"
>
> At what point is the definition no longer externalized?

Yes, they're all behaviour in markup, totally unrecommended.  You
should know better ;-).  Yes, it's difficult to draw the line, I can
see this is a difficult education exercise in most development
domains, and it's much simpler to ban inline events altogether.

> onclick is a way of defining a behavior in response to an event, just
> like defining myFunc() is defining behavior in response to that
> function call.

Agree, but using myFunc is delegation of behaviour.

> How is obtaining a reference to a dom element mixing structure and
> behavior? When I say "structure", I'm talking about markup structure,
> which is supposed to be a way of serializing a document tree.

It's about coupling and simplicity.  Explicitly referencing elements
that originated from a serialized origin is coupling.  Depends on your
slant, code/markup decoupling is acheivable, but in my experience, it
comes at a cost.

Markup/behaviour (or controller/view) decoupling in the user agent
tier is unavoidable in practice, but coupling is less with
(appropriately contrained!) inline events.  This is where I'm saying
there are possible support & maintenance gains to be made, yes
depending on the skillset of your team.

Chris demonstrated earlier that this is inappropriate for CMS
scenarios, which I hadn't appreciated before (cheers Chris, that's
*obvious* now!).

> When systems start getting much more
> complex is when separation like this becomes increasingly important
> and has an increasing impact on maintenance and knowledge transfer
> (e.g., during employee turnover) costs.

I agree (except I think you meant the opposite), spearation has an
increasing impact on maintenance and knowledge transfer.  That's why
I'm trying to emphasize decoupling, not separation without thought,
but I'm not doing very well am I?  Sigh.

> By the way, this is digressing into an argument we've had on this list
> at least 3 times. There's more info in the archives.

Please don't use the word argument, that's so negative.  You wouldn't
participate if you didn't enjoy it.

I'm just want to understand the reasoning & limits of the guidelines,
the archives don't help me do this, I can't discuss on the archives. 
I was miffed at the notion that DHTML is something to be distanced
from DOM Scripting, one is bad and the other good.  When in actual
fact, this thread has proved it's almost impossible to do much DHTML
without DOM Scripting.

It should be in our nature to challenge things, when one is
enlightened, they understand.  When one understands, they don't
forget.  It's a learning excercise, what this list is all about.  In
order to evangelise, one must believe!  Respect to Chris & yourself (&
the list), you make all this possible.

Even if Chris does get annoyed from time-to-time! ;-)

-- LK


From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Thu Apr  6 17:27:01 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:27:01 -0700
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A74@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

Why does this

  <%
  response.write(dateadd("w",28,date) & "<br />")
  response.write(dateadd("d",28,date) & "<br />")
  %>

return this

  5/4/2006
  5/4/2006

instead of the first being about eight days later to account for the
weekends not being counted? am I misunderstanding what 'weekdays' are in
vbscript?

thanks

spinhead


From jeff.hinds at netagency.com  Thu Apr  6 18:20:29 2006
From: jeff.hinds at netagency.com (Jeff Hinds)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:20:29 -0500
Subject: [thelist] thelist Digest, Vol 38, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10152.1144333999.8956.thelist@lists.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001b01c659d0$b4ed2d70$6801a8c0@DCDMYP91>

If you want something search engine friendly and very user friendly I would
suggest Drupal. I don't know Plone.

Jeff





Message: 1
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:46:21 -0500
From: "Steven Streight" <steven.streight at gmail.com>
Subject: [thelist] Plone vs. Mambo
To: thelist <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Message-ID:
	<fad66b420604052246y8b26c4fq9e93d01683175af9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have a client who wants to move CMS from Mambo to some other service. They
are seriously considering Double Knot. I am looking into Plone or Drupal.

Take a look at wdboyce [dot] org for the client site, a local Boy Scout
council in Peoria, IL. They wish to have a calendar with links to event
pages and greater flexibility with images and layout.

Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

--
Steven Streight aka Vaspers the Grate
Web Usability. Blogs. IT Audit/Control. Social Media.

http://www.vaspersthegrate.blogspot.com

http://techrepublic.com.com/5247-6257-0.html

http://blog-revolution-search-engine-swicki.eurekster.com

SKYPE: vaspersthegrate



From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Thu Apr  6 20:05:38 2006
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:05:38 +1000
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
References: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A74@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>
Message-ID: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4E9C@kjserver1.kjhome.local>

Hi

"d" and "w" behave the same way (as you have discovered). Using "w" does not
exclude weekends. The documentation isn't clear about the differences between
"d" and "w" (because there aren't any), but nowhere does it say that "w"
applies to working days only. If you look at the Weekday() function, you'll
see it can be used to determine any day of the week (Saturdays and Sundays
included), which implies that weekdays are any day of the week. But why have
both "d" and "w" then?

This post might help answer that question, kind of :-)
http://groups.google.com.au/group/microsoft.public.scripting.wsh/browse_frm/t
hread/86b0c04dfa8c6340/948913f6bf6f086e?lnk=st&q=VBScript+DateAdd+Day+Weekday
+difference+group%3Amicrosoft.public.*&rnum=1&hl=en#948913f6bf6f086e
-or-

http://tinyurl.com/rrn3s

Cheers
Ken

--
My IIS Blog: www.adOpenStatic.com/cs/blogs/ken
Tech.Ed Boston 2006 - see you there: Everything the web administrator needs
to know about MOM 2005


: -----Original Message-----
: From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-
: bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Canfield, Joel
: Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
: 
: Why does this
: 
:   <%
:   response.write(dateadd("w",28,date) & "<br />")
:   response.write(dateadd("d",28,date) & "<br />")
:   %>
: 
: return this
: 
:   5/4/2006
:   5/4/2006
: 
: instead of the first being about eight days later to account for the
: weekends not being counted? am I misunderstanding what 'weekdays' are
: in
: vbscript?
: 
: thanks
: spinhead



From mattias at thorslund.us  Thu Apr  6 23:57:32 2006
From: mattias at thorslund.us (Mattias Thorslund)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:57:32 -0700
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <10c3e4e00604061405o20863021m42a58d4fcc054912@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CF12DB4653A04C42B6CFC32548009828584EA6@STATION.kubota-kma.com>	<44351DC5.2010501@kasimir-k.fi>	<30bd6ffd0604060711j4762ae09k3cc8ba131037fdec@mail.gmail.com>	<4435269C.6070901@kasimir-k.fi>
	<443552CF.6020607@thorslund.us>	<30bd6ffd0604061059k4156a332j9e7404853f5bdf85@mail.gmail.com>	<30bd6ffd0604061347w265d46dbjbab62d905fe9fbde@mail.gmail.com>
	<10c3e4e00604061405o20863021m42a58d4fcc054912@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4435F13C.2090505@thorslund.us>

To clarify my earlier post a little:
What I tried and couldn't do in IE was to set innerHTML on a TR, in
order to update just one row.

What I wanted to do (in concept):

oTD.innerHTML = '<td class="myclass" id="someID">content</td><td
class="anotherclass">more content</td>';

Since the content for the row was generated by the server, this would
have been very handy, especially since I wanted to replace not only the
content of the TDs but also the class attributes. This worked fine in
Firefox, but not in IE.

Instead I had to do this (feel free to tell me what's wrong/bad about this):

//get the row object
oRow = document.getElementById('row'+rowID.toString());

//walk through the properties in the js object received via XHR/JSON
//and set the properties on the cells of the TD
for(cellID in newCells){
       oCell = oRow.cells[cellID];
       oCell.innerHTML = newCells[cellID].innerHTML;
       oCell.className = newCells[cellID].className;
}


Quoting from MSDN [1]:
> The property is read/write for all objects except the following, for
> which it is read-only: COL, COLGROUP, FRAMESET, HTML, STYLE, TABLE,
> TBODY, TFOOT, THEAD, TITLE, TR. The property has no default value.

So, according to that, it wouldn't be possible to set innerHTML of a
TBODY...


Cheers,

Mattias


[1]
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/properties/innerhtml.asp




Pavel Dudrenov wrote:
> To enshure that IE displays the content of a table the table needs to have a
> tbody element. And put wahtever table elements you need to put in the tbody
> not the table directly.
>
> Pavel
> P.S.
> Avoid using innerHTML.
>
> On 4/6/06, Christian Heilmann <codepo8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>>>> In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
>>>> tables:
>>>>         
>> It is even worse:
>>
>> DOM generated tables will not show.
>> http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/msieXHRtable/exampleXMLxhr.html
>>
>> This works nicely in Firefox but not in MSIE. MSIE gets and sets the
>> innerHTML, but the table is not shown. Is that some messed up
>> hasLayout thing?
>>
>> --
>> Chris Heilmann
>> Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
>> Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
>> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>> --
>>
>> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
>> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>>
>> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
>> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
>> Workers of the Web, evolt !
>>
>>     



From escalonab at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 05:01:27 2006
From: escalonab at gmail.com (Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 03:01:27 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
Message-ID: <12d1e0910604070301t35de95e8x2e56b21debbbb2de@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so far for the replies.

> After you finish your operations on that table, copy the table to
> another table (structure+data), drop the original table then copy back
> the table on the old name. You'll have your auto-incremented ID without
> gaps.
>
> Best,
> Dan

Dan,
I gave this a try and this is what happened: I deleted every entry
with ID higher than 134. Then I did the copy, drop, rename like you
suggested. Then I added new rows expecting them to appear with IDs
135, 136, etc. Instead, all the new rows have ID of zero (although ID
is the PK and supposed to be unique). What did I do wrong?


> Why do the gaps bother you? auto_increment is only a way to ensure you
> have a unique identifier. If you need something that has some semantics
> behind it, might I suggest another field, e.g.:
>
> id        int     auto_increment   pk
> foo       varchar(255)
> priority  int     not null
> ...
> Matt Warden

Matt,
I would like the IDs to be continuous because in another part of my
page i generate thumbnails of random photos. The randomly generated ID
is used to retrieve the corresponding thumbnail, so if the ID doesn't
exist because of a gap, I have a problem.

Thanks all so far for the help.

Berns


--
___________________________________________
Bernardo Escalona Espinosa
  handy: 0176 / 24 82 35 34
  http://www.bernsonline.com/


From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Fri Apr  7 06:12:44 2006
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:12:44 +1000
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
Message-ID: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>

: -----Original Message-----
: From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-
: bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa
: Sent: Friday, 7 April 2006 8:01 PM
: To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
: Subject: Re: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
: 
: > Why do the gaps bother you? auto_increment is only a way to ensure you
: > have a unique identifier. If you need something that has some semantics
: > behind it, might I suggest another field, e.g.:
: >
: > id        int     auto_increment   pk
: > foo       varchar(255)
: > priority  int     not null
: > ...
: > Matt Warden
: 
: Matt,
: I would like the IDs to be continuous because in another part of my
: page i generate thumbnails of random photos. The randomly generated ID
: is used to retrieve the corresponding thumbnail, so if the ID doesn't
: exist because of a gap, I have a problem.

Then you are completely mis-using the auto-increment as your primary key. PKs
are there to identify the row uniquely. They are not there to fall within a
range in some random number generator.

Can I *strongly* suggest that you do not attempt to use the auto-increment as
your primary key if that's also the field you are going to be renumbering for
purposes of your random record formula.

I suspect there is probably some other way you can get around this. I don't
really know mySQL well, but I have this page for Access/Jet and SQL Server:
http://www.adopenstatic.com/faq/randomrecord.asp

Neither of the two mechanisms relies on sequential PK values. Maybe something
similar could be used in your case?

Cheers
Ken


From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 06:24:00 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:24:00 +0300
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604070424n7e0ef8e7mb93fe46a5ee5e148@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I may be totally off here but why don't you add a column named "sort_order"
(or sngSortOrder my convention) and sort your images accordingly?

Cheers,
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/


From matthew at chickenskinners.com  Fri Apr  7 06:41:13 2006
From: matthew at chickenskinners.com (Matthew Pollard)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:41:13 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
Message-ID: <JIEEKPGJCCJMOPGKFALHMEAIDBAA.matthew@chickenskinners.com>


> > In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> > tables:


You don't need to use innerHTML at all - just traverse the dom and find the
right node and append(node.appendChild(newnode)) it - this works in IE as
well as firefox.

look here:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Gecko_DOM_Reference


tables have their own little section
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:table#HTML_Form_Element_Interface

Cheers

Matthew
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/303 - Release Date: 06/04/2006



From codepo8 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 07:26:34 2006
From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:26:34 +0100
Subject: [thelist] innerHTML on a table (Was: AJAX Tip)
In-Reply-To: <JIEEKPGJCCJMOPGKFALHMEAIDBAA.matthew@chickenskinners.com>
References: <JIEEKPGJCCJMOPGKFALHMEAIDBAA.matthew@chickenskinners.com>
Message-ID: <30bd6ffd0604070526o7aa1d8d4ta0983e5ec48509da@mail.gmail.com>

> > > In case someone reading the above thought of doing some innerHTML in
> > > tables:
> You don't need to use innerHTML at all - just traverse the dom and find the
> right node and append(node.appendChild(newnode)) it - this works in IE as
> well as firefox.
> look here:
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Gecko_DOM_Reference
> tables have their own little section
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:table#HTML_Form_Element_Interface

Yes, we know, however that is not the issue. The problem is that MSIE
does not show a table generated with DOM unless you also have a TBODY
in it.

<tip type="JavaScript and DOM" author="Chris Heilmann">
If you use createElement and appendChild to create tables in
JavaScript always make sure to use a tbody in the table.

		function dotables(){
			// table without tbody
			var table=document.createElement('table');
			var tr=document.createElement('tr');
			var td=document.createElement('td')
			td.appendChild(document.createTextNode('foo'));
			tr.appendChild(td);
			table.appendChild(tr);
			document.body.appendChild(table);
			// table with tbody
			var table2=document.createElement('table');
			var tr2=tr.cloneNode(true);
			var tbody=document.createElement('tbody');
			tbody.appendChild(tr2);
			table2.appendChild(tbody);
			document.body.appendChild(table2);
		}
		window.onload=dotables;

This will result in two tables in Firefox, but only one in MSIE, as
the first one lacks a tbody.
The table is inside the document, it is just not rendered!

Proof: http://icant.co.uk/sandbox/createTables.html

With thanks to Pavel Dudrenov and Alex Robinson.
</tip>


From Ron.Luther at hp.com  Fri Apr  7 08:25:31 2006
From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:25:31 -0500
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <12d1e0910604070301t35de95e8x2e56b21debbbb2de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1FF0647605921940BCB22C2A454AD7CE101820@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net>

Bernardo Escalona-Espinosa described a problem where he wants to pull a
random photo out 
of an ever changing db collection of photographs:


Hi Berns,


First of all, I agree with Ken (et alia) that auto-increment is the
wrong tool for this task.

Here is an outline of *one way* to do this that might be workable and
not too tricky 
to implement:

Assumption - I'm guessing that this photo collection isn't quite as
large and doesn't 
have quite as much update activity as Phil's 'photo.net'.  I'm also not
that familiar 
with triggers and sprocs so I wanted to suggest something that stayed
away from those.

How about a kinda simple four table design?

(1) The photo table.  The main table containing all the file name, ID,
location, size, 
submitter, category, comment links, ratings, evaluations, alt text, etc.
fields.

(2) Last Update.  A very small (1 record - 1 field) table containing a
timestamp indicating 
the last time the photo table was updated. [Add a routine when you add
or delete a photo 
to change the date/time here.]

(3) Enumeration Table.  A two field table containing an ID link back
into the photo table 
and a 'counter' field numbered '1' thru 'x' that you match your random
number into.  
[Create this table with a routine that (a) wipes this table, and (b)
loops through the 
photo table writing ID and 'counter' here one record at a time to ensure
you get your '1' 
thru 'x' coverage.]  {The tricky part is 'when' to write this table.
Hint: That's what 
the two date tables are for.}

(4) Last Enumeration Date.  Another very small (1 record - 1 field)
table containing a 
timestamp indicating the last time the enumeration table was updated.
[You see where I'm 
going here, right?]


Now, every time you update the photo table you update the 'last update'
timestamp so 
you have a record telling you when the last change to the table was
made.

Sooooo ... when somebody hits your page/link/whatever and wants to see a
random photo 
you:

(i) Check to see if the last enumeration time is 'after' the last update
to the photo 
database.  If it is, everything is cool - you select your random number,
match through 
the enumeration table to get the photo table id and use that to link
into the photo 
table and pull up the snazzy pix and knock their socks off.

(ii) Otherwise - you add a step to kick off the routine to rewrite the
enumeration 
table and update the last enumeration date.  Now that things are up to
date again, you 
pull your random number between '1' and 'select max(counter) from
enumeration_table' 
and go get that picture.



Probably not the most 'efficient' design and may or may not scale well
to enormous 
quantities of photos being updated every six tenths of a second ... But
for a small 
to midsized app this might work 'well enough'.


HTH,

RonL.


From John.Brooking at sappi.com  Fri Apr  7 09:42:01 2006
From: John.Brooking at sappi.com (Brooking, John)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:42:01 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
Message-ID: <7DFF91610114AB4C8C0B068CFC34734F059424EC@CDFNEXC3.NA.Sappi.com>

> : I would like the IDs to be continuous because in another part of my
> : page i generate thumbnails of random photos. The randomly generated
ID
> : is used to retrieve the corresponding thumbnail, so if the ID
doesn't
> : exist because of a gap, I have a problem.
>
> ...
> Can I *strongly* suggest that you do not attempt to use the auto-
> increment as your primary key if that's also the field you are
> going to be renumbering for purposes of your random record
> formula.
>
> I suspect there is probably some other way you can get around
> this. I don't really know mySQL well, but I have this page for
> Access/Jet and SQL Server:
> http://www.adopenstatic.com/faq/randomrecord.asp
>
> Neither of the two mechanisms relies on sequential PK values.
> Maybe something similar could be used in your case?

   I agree that using the primary key for this is only going to cause
you headaches. I suggest a separate field, maybe call it SequenceNbr,
and make THAT where you keep your sequential number. Set it to the next
higher value on insert, shift it down on deletes, don't modify the
primary key, and everyone stays happy. I've done a similar thing on some
tables that need to maintain a fixed order to the records, and it works
very well.

   You might ask why you can't just use that as your primary key? Well,
you could, I suppose, as long as you don't make it AUTO_INCREMENT, so
you and the AUTO_INCREMENT feature are not fighting over control of it
(which is what is happening now). However, as far as the MEANING of the
field, you would be using it for two different things. Using a
potentially-changing sequential number to also identify the row is
problematic over time: How do you know that row #12 now has always been
row #12? You don't. That's why a primary key should never change, and
why you should make them separate fields. The primary key identifies the
row for all time, while the sequence number is simply a property of the
row and may change.

   Hope this helps.

- John

-- 


This message may contain information which is private, privileged or confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in the message. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender thereof and destroy / delete the message. Neither the sender nor Sappi Limited (including its subsidiaries and associated companies) shall incur any liability resulting directly or indirectly from accessing any of the attached files which may contain a virus or the like.



From rob.smith at lexjet.com  Fri Apr  7 10:37:51 2006
From: rob.smith at lexjet.com (Rob Smith)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:37:51 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries, quotes, and AUTO_INCREMENT
Message-ID: <25A592EB84583B48A16B86A25F56E7CE019D2911@lesjetcorp01.lexjetcorp.com>

Thanks to SQL Server 2005, you can do the new function row_number() to
help solve the Island and Gap problem much more efficiently. The
following is a copy and paste from the lecturer, Itzik Ben-Gan. He's got
some really cool stuff on Recursive Queries and the new CTE (Common
Table Expressions) new to 2005. As a test, I've now mapped out my entire
company's corporate ladder in a matter of a few minutes in a recursive
algorithm....Now on to printing the entire menu navigation as a site
map/catalog application.

http://www.sql.co.il/books/insidetsql2005/source_code/Discover%20the%20P
ower%20of%20Row%20Numbers.txt (Basic - excerpt below)
http://www.sql.co.il/books/insidetsql2005/source_code/Hierarchies%20and%
20Recursive%20Queries.txt (Advanced)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Islands and Gaps
---------------------------------------------------------------------
SET NOCOUNT ON;
GO
IF OBJECT_ID('dbo.T1') IS NOT NULL
  DROP TABLE dbo.T1;
GO
CREATE TABLE dbo.T1(col1 INT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY);
GO

INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(1);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(2);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(3);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(100);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(101);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(102);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(103);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(500);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(997);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(998);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(999);
INSERT INTO dbo.T1 VALUES(1000);
GO

-- Gaps
SELECT col1 + 1 AS start_range,
  (SELECT MIN(col1) FROM dbo.T1 AS B
   WHERE B.col1 > A.col1) AS end_range
FROM dbo.T1 AS A
WHERE NOT EXISTS
  (SELECT * FROM dbo.T1 AS B
   WHERE B.col1 = A.col1 + 1)
  AND col1 < (SELECT MAX(col1) FROM dbo.T1);

-- With row numbers
SELECT MIN(col1) AS start_range, MAX(col1) AS end_range
FROM (SELECT col1, col1 - ROW_NUMBER() OVER(ORDER BY col1) AS grp
      FROM dbo.T1) AS D
GROUP BY grp;

-- Islands
SELECT MIN(col1) AS start_range, MAX(col1) AS end_range
FROM (SELECT col1,
        (SELECT MIN(col1) FROM dbo.T1 AS B
         WHERE B.col1 >= A.col1
           AND NOT EXISTS
             (SELECT * FROM dbo.T1 AS C
              WHERE C.col1 = B.col1 + 1)) AS grp
      FROM dbo.T1 AS A) AS D
GROUP BY grp;

-- With row numbers
SELECT MIN(col1) AS start_range, MAX(col1) AS end_range
FROM (SELECT col1, col1 - ROW_NUMBER() OVER(ORDER BY col1) AS grp
      FROM dbo.T1) AS D
GROUP BY grp;
GO

Rob Smith
LexJet
rob.smith at lexjet.com
http://www.lexjet.com
(800)453-9538
(941)330-1210 Int'l
(941)330-1220 Fax
1680 Fruitville Road, 3rd Floor
Sarasota, FL 34236



From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Fri Apr  7 11:38:25 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:38:25 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
Message-ID: <44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com>

Ken Schaefer wrote:
> Then you are completely mis-using the auto-increment as your primary key. PKs
> are there to identify the row uniquely. They are not there to fall within a
> range in some random number generator.

Ken is absolutely correct, you shouldn't be designing your database to 
fit in with your particular scripting technique.  Still, it's not so 
hard to let MySQL select a random row using a PK sequence that may have 
gaps.  If the table is small (a few thousand rows or less), you can just do:
SELECT [fields] FROM mytable ORDER BY RAND() LIMIT 1

The only problem with this is that when the table gets any heft to it 
(e.g. 10,000+ rows) the query gets slow.  So, assuming your PK is an 
integer type named 'id', the idea then is:
1. Get the lowest and highest id value from mytable:
    SELECT min(id) AS firstrow, max(id) AS lastrow FROM mytable
2. Generate a random integer between $firstrow and $lastrow:
    $x = mt_rand($firstrow,$lastrow);
2. SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id >= $x LIMIT 1
3. If no data returned, query once more:
    SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id < $x LIMIT 1
4. If still no data, your table is empty; raise an error.

With this method there is no coupling of the random number routine in 
PHP and the PK column 'id' in your table, aside from the requirement of 
it being an integer, but the original post was about AUTO INCREMENT 
which only works on integer columns anyway.
-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From joshua at waetech.com  Fri Apr  7 12:24:51 2006
From: joshua at waetech.com (Joshua Olson)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:24:51 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: AAAAAG+s9R0sTAxPmKw0nnD8aj3ksT8A
Message-ID: <000401c65a68$2ddaf220$66e64d0a@OLSONXPS>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Schwanekamp
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 12:38 PM
> 
> 3. If no data returned, query once more:
>     SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id < $x LIMIT 1

This is an interesting concept and will presumably work.  You may need to
add in an ORDER BY clause here, though.

<><><><><><><><><><>
Joshua L. Olson
WAE Technologies, Inc.
http://www.waetech.com/
Phone: 706.210.0168
Fax: 413.812.4864

Monitor bandwidth usage on IIS6 in real-time:
http://www.waetech.com/services/iisbm/ 


From mattias at thorslund.us  Fri Apr  7 12:29:15 2006
From: mattias at thorslund.us (Mattias Thorslund)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:29:15 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com>
Message-ID: <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>

Max Schwanekamp wrote:
> 1. Get the lowest and highest id value from mytable:
>     SELECT min(id) AS firstrow, max(id) AS lastrow FROM mytable
> 2. Generate a random integer between $firstrow and $lastrow:
>     $x = mt_rand($firstrow,$lastrow);
> 2. SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id >= $x LIMIT 1
> 3. If no data returned, query once more:
>     SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id < $x LIMIT 1
> 4. If still no data, your table is empty; raise an error.
>
> With this method there is no coupling of the random number routine in 
> PHP and the PK column 'id' in your table, aside from the requirement of 
> it being an integer, but the original post was about AUTO INCREMENT 
> which only works on integer columns anyway.
>   

Interesting technique.

But it looks like some rows would be more likely to be chosen than
others. Consider if the IDs are [1, 2, 3, 100]. Then, picking a random
number between 1 and 100 will result displaying the row with ID 100 for
97% of the time. Of course that's an extreme example but for each
missing number, the likely selection of the following record is much
larger than the others (one missing number doubles the likelihood of
selecting the next record, two missing numbers will triple it)...

What's the use of point 3? The (second) point 2 should return a row if
there are rows in the table.
If there are no rows in the table, point 1 will return NULL in both
firstrow and lastrow, which is where you should raise the error.


I agree with John Brooking: Use a separate sequence field, and update
it. Or, if the number of records will be not too large, use ORDER BY
RAND() LIMIT 1.

Mattias


From mwarden at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 12:35:02 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:35:02 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <000401c65a68$2ddaf220$66e64d0a@OLSONXPS>
References: <000401c65a68$2ddaf220$66e64d0a@OLSONXPS>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604071035l142b7bdye1f0b13ed8680ffa@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/7/06, Joshua Olson <joshua at waetech.com> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Max Schwanekamp
> > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 12:38 PM
> >
> > 3. If no data returned, query once more:
> >     SELECT [fields] FROM mytable WHERE id < $x LIMIT 1
>
> This is an interesting concept and will presumably work.  You may need to
> add in an ORDER BY clause here, though.

Yes, I think you are correct. Otherwise, the <$x condition would
likely be ordered by id ascending, and you would get the first record
every time. Nice catch, Joshua.

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From mwarden at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 12:40:22 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:40:22 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com> <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/7/06, Mattias Thorslund <mattias at thorslund.us> wrote:
> But it looks like some rows would be more likely to be chosen than
> others. Consider if the IDs are [1, 2, 3, 100]. Then, picking a random
> number between 1 and 100 will result displaying the row with ID 100 for
> 97% of the time. Of course that's an extreme example but for each
> missing number, the likely selection of the following record is much
> larger than the others (one missing number doubles the likelihood of
> selecting the next record, two missing numbers will triple it)...

His disclaimer was for > 10,000 rows, and it doesn't sound like this
is an application where uniformity is a huge issue.

> What's the use of point 3? The (second) point 2 should return a row if
> there are rows in the table.

Only if you lock tables for writing in between these queries.

> I agree with John Brooking: Use a separate sequence field, and update
> it. Or, if the number of records will be not too large, use ORDER BY
> RAND() LIMIT 1.

I would suggest this either way. I'm not sure issuing 3 queries over
the network is more efficient than using this method (although, I
haven't done any testing).

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Fri Apr  7 12:51:28 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:51:28 -0700
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A86@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

thanks for clarifying, Ken

> The documentation isn't clear about the 
> differences between
> "d" and "w" (because there aren't any)

it does, though, say that 'd' means 'days' and 'w' means 'workdays',
which, in my mind, implies a difference, whatever that might be.

So, is the only way to add working days (for me, that's Monday through
Friday inclusive) to laboriously walk through the calendar using the
Weekday function?

spinhead


From peter at easylistbox.com  Fri Apr  7 13:07:28 2006
From: peter at easylistbox.com (Peter Brunone (EasyListBox.com))
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:07:28 -0700
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
Message-ID: <6a16d8b75b134fd8958606a0d8387e73@easylistbox.com>

> So, is the only way to add working days (for me, that's Monday through
> Friday inclusive) to laboriously walk through the calendar using the
> Weekday function?

   More or less, yes... BUT if you're worried about performance on long loops, you could verify your current position in the week and then add (WeekDaysToAdd/5)*7 or something like that.

Just a half-formed thought...

Peter

 From: "Canfield, Joel" JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org

thanks for clarifying, Ken

> The documentation isn't clear about the 
> differences between
> "d" and "w" (because there aren't any)

it does, though, say that 'd' means 'days' and 'w' means 'workdays',
which, in my mind, implies a difference, whatever that might be.

So, is the only way to add working days (for me, that's Monday through
Friday inclusive) to laboriously walk through the calendar using the
Weekday function?

spinhead


From JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org  Fri Apr  7 13:11:32 2006
From: JCanfield at PacAdvantage.org (Canfield, Joel)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:11:32 -0700
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
Message-ID: <D989D815774A9D45BB0AF4892EF7300801725A88@sem01prd.smf.pacadvantage.org>

> performance on long loops, you could verify your current 
> position in the week and then add (WeekDaysToAdd/5)*7 or 
> something like that.

yeah; for adding large numbers of days, something like my bits to reduce
nine-bazillion seconds to X days, XX hours, XX minutes, XX seconds, only
in reverse. ish. kind of. yeah.

probably simpler than that, in this specific instance; just need to add
1, 3, or 7 workdays to set task deadlines.

doable; just always looking for shortcuts

thanks


From sbeam at onsetcorps.net  Fri Apr  7 13:16:08 2006
From: sbeam at onsetcorps.net (sbeam)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:16:08 -0500
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
	<bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200604071416.08631.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>

On Friday 07 April 2006 01:40 pm, Matt Warden wrote:
> > I agree with John Brooking: Use a separate sequence field, and 
update
> > it. Or, if the number of records will be not too large, use ORDER BY
> > RAND() LIMIT 1.
> 
> I would suggest this either way. I'm not sure issuing 3 queries over
> the network is more efficient than using this method (although, I
> haven't done any testing).

Just curious - as an alternative - would there be any downside to just 
using a result set pointer/cursor - something like

$res = $db->query("SELECT id, file_name FROM photos");
$pic = $res->fetchRow(DB_FETCHMODE_ASSOC, rand(1, $res->numRows());
$res->free();

(Using PHP/PEAR because thats just what I'm used to. You could do the 
same thing lots of ways)

So you are only doing one rand() in the application code and not 10^4 
rand's in SQL plus a sort.


-- 

# S Beam - Web App Dev Servs
# http://www.onsetcorps.net/


From mwarden at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 13:20:41 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:20:41 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <200604071416.08631.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
	<bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>
	<200604071416.08631.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604071120x2e93e27bh569bf63a42c2ad19@mail.gmail.com>

sbeam,

On 4/7/06, sbeam <sbeam at onsetcorps.net> wrote:
> Just curious - as an alternative - would there be any downside to just
> using a result set pointer/cursor - something like
>
> $res = $db->query("SELECT id, file_name FROM photos");
> $pic = $res->fetchRow(DB_FETCHMODE_ASSOC, rand(1, $res->numRows());
> $res->free();
>
> (Using PHP/PEAR because thats just what I'm used to. You could do the
> same thing lots of ways)
>
> So you are only doing one rand() in the application code and not 10^4
> rand's in SQL plus a sort.

rand() is not very expensive. Psuedo-random number generation is a
simple calculation based on the previous (or seed) value. It's a good
thought to avoid the many calculations, but transferring data over a
network is expensive, so returning all the rows in the table would
most certainly be slower.

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From mattias at thorslund.us  Fri Apr  7 13:57:29 2006
From: mattias at thorslund.us (mattias at thorslund.us)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:57:29 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com> <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
	<bbc8fa430604071040j4626aa52le0b193368ab2dd27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060407115729.h5yl7j6fka688w0g@www.thorslund.us>

Quoting Matt Warden <mwarden at gmail.com>:

> On 4/7/06, Mattias Thorslund <mattias at thorslund.us> wrote:
>> But it looks like some rows would be more likely to be chosen than
>> others. Consider if the IDs are [1, 2, 3, 100]. Then, picking a random
>> number between 1 and 100 will result displaying the row with ID 100 for
>> 97% of the time. Of course that's an extreme example but for each
>> missing number, the likely selection of the following record is much
>> larger than the others (one missing number doubles the likelihood of
>> selecting the next record, two missing numbers will triple it)...
>
> His disclaimer was for > 10,000 rows, and it doesn't sound like this
> is an application where uniformity is a huge issue.

Agreed. Probably won't be an issue, practically speaking. RAND() is 
much simpler
to implement.


>> What's the use of point 3? The (second) point 2 should return a row if
>> there are rows in the table.
>
> Only if you lock tables for writing in between these queries.

Anomalies would be pretty unlikely (they would happen only if someone 
managed to
delete the chosen picture in the microseconds between getting 
first/last ID and
selecting the random record). If we can assume that deletes are relatively
rare, this would not be a big issue, practically speaking.

But in principle I agree, the two queries should be made into one transaction,
either by lock/unlock, a transaction, or a stored procerdure, etc... Putting
them in a stored procedure (if the MySQL version supports it) would probably
give the best performance since there'd be just one trip to the database.



>> I agree with John Brooking: Use a separate sequence field, and update
>> it. Or, if the number of records will be not too large, use ORDER BY
>> RAND() LIMIT 1.
>
> I would suggest this either way. I'm not sure issuing 3 queries over
> the network is more efficient than using this method (although, I
> haven't done any testing).

Database server and web server are likely the same box here, so I 
assume there's
no huge latency. Besides, I only see the need for two queries.

But all in all this isn't much to argue over.  In practice, I would try
whichever approach that seems easy to implement and see whether the 
results are
acceptable to the purposes of the application...

Mattias



From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Fri Apr  7 14:22:30 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 12:22:30 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL select random row [WAS: MySQL queries and
	AUTO_INCREMENT]
In-Reply-To: <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com>
	<4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
Message-ID: <4436BBF6.1000007@neptunewebworks.com>

Mattias Thorslund wrote:
> But it looks like some rows would be more likely to be chosen than
> others. Consider if the IDs are [1, 2, 3, 100]. Then, picking a random
> number between 1 and 100 will result displaying the row with ID 100 for
> 97% of the time.

Yup, totally true.  I just mentioned that weakness to Joshua on the 
phone earlier, before I saw your post.  If you want a closer 
approximation of true randomness, you'll want to use a separate sequence 
field.  Still, if the point is simply to vary the output on a 
more-or-less random basis, and it is reasonable to assume that we'll 
have a table with may more insertions than deletions, this method is 
simpler than having 4 tables to maintain solely for the purpose of 
generating a random image.

> What's the use of point 3? The (second) point 2 should return a row if
> there are rows in the table.

Also true!  I was in a rush and added the minid bit just before sending; 
should have removed #3.

> If there are no rows in the table, point 1 will return NULL in both
> firstrow and lastrow, which is where you should raise the error.

Good point.

> I agree with John Brooking: Use a separate sequence field, and update
> it. 

That makes sense in most cases, but this may add overhead to the 
maintenance, since now all inserts to that table requires a routine that 
under MyISAM locks the table, inserts, updates all rows, unlocks (or 
wraps it in a transaction under InnoDB).  It also couples the code to 
the table structure, which was partly what I was trying to avoid.  If we 
want to reuse a selectRandomRow method, the table must always have that 
sequence field, or fall back on some other technique... like this one or 
ORDER BY RAND() LIMIT 1.

> Or, if the number of records will be not too large, use ORDER BY
> RAND() LIMIT 1.

I agree.  But there should be some automated way to get alerted when a 
query takes an inordinately long time, as ORDER BY RAND() is expensive 
for big tables.

OK, so I googled around a bit just now, and these guys have a good 
discussion:
http://akinas.com/pages/en/blog/mysql_random_row/

The last one is an interesting solution.

-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From mwarden at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 14:41:39 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:41:39 -0400
Subject: [thelist] MySQL select random row [WAS: MySQL queries and
	AUTO_INCREMENT]
In-Reply-To: <4436BBF6.1000007@neptunewebworks.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com> <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
	<4436BBF6.1000007@neptunewebworks.com>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604071241ta21b0edga06702079deaf285@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/7/06, Max Schwanekamp <lists at neptunewebworks.com> wrote:

> OK, so I googled around a bit just now, and these guys have a good
> discussion:
> http://akinas.com/pages/en/blog/mysql_random_row/
>
> The last one is an interesting solution.

It's the same thing you suggested, just using SQL subqueries (which I
assumed weren't available):

SELECT * FROM `table` WHERE id >= (SELECT FLOOR( MAX(id) * RAND())
FROM `table` ) ORDER BY id LIMIT 1;

Except it's not quite right. It should be:

SELECT * FROM `table`
WHERE id >= (
         SELECT MIN(id) +  ROUND( ( MAX(id)-MIN(id) ) * RAND() )
         FROM `table` )
ORDER BY id LIMIT 1;

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From sbeam at onsetcorps.net  Fri Apr  7 15:18:28 2006
From: sbeam at onsetcorps.net (sbeam)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:18:28 -0500
Subject: [thelist] MySQL queries and AUTO_INCREMENT
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604071120x2e93e27bh569bf63a42c2ad19@mail.gmail.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<200604071416.08631.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>
	<bbc8fa430604071120x2e93e27bh569bf63a42c2ad19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200604071618.28165.sbeam@onsetcorps.net>

On Friday 07 April 2006 02:20 pm, Matt Warden wrote:
> > $res = $db->query("SELECT id, file_name FROM photos");
> > $pic = $res->fetchRow(DB_FETCHMODE_ASSOC, rand(1, $res->numRows());
> > $res->free();
> >
> rand() is not very expensive. Psuedo-random number generation is a
> simple calculation based on the previous (or seed) value. It's a good
> thought to avoid the many calculations, but transferring data over a
> network is expensive, so returning all the rows in the table would
> most certainly be slower.

OK, rand() is not expensive, granted. But ORDER BY can be (somewhat). 
And I'd assume the client and the DB are on the same machine here. 
Besides I've always understood that RDBMSs don't send any parts of the 
result set over the wire (or even read them off disk, unless a temp 
table or cursor is created?) until you actually fetch the row. So in 
this case the only bits that are moved are the ones corresponding to 
the single row at the pointer position.

-- 

# S Beam - Web App Dev Servs
# http://www.onsetcorps.net/


From mattias at thorslund.us  Fri Apr  7 15:40:20 2006
From: mattias at thorslund.us (mattias at thorslund.us)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:40:20 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL select random row [WAS: MySQL queries
	and	AUTO_INCREMENT]
In-Reply-To: <bbc8fa430604071241ta21b0edga06702079deaf285@mail.gmail.com>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>
	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com> <4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>
	<4436BBF6.1000007@neptunewebworks.com>
	<bbc8fa430604071241ta21b0edga06702079deaf285@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060407134020.3nau771geh444040@www.thorslund.us>

Quoting Matt Warden <mwarden at gmail.com>:

> On 4/7/06, Max Schwanekamp <lists at neptunewebworks.com> wrote:
>
>> OK, so I googled around a bit just now, and these guys have a good
>> discussion:
>> http://akinas.com/pages/en/blog/mysql_random_row/
>>
>> The last one is an interesting solution.
>
> It's the same thing you suggested, just using SQL subqueries (which I
> assumed weren't available):
>
> SELECT * FROM `table` WHERE id >= (SELECT FLOOR( MAX(id) * RAND())
> FROM `table` ) ORDER BY id LIMIT 1;
>
> Except it's not quite right. It should be:
>
> SELECT * FROM `table`
> WHERE id >= (
>         SELECT MIN(id) +  ROUND( ( MAX(id)-MIN(id) ) * RAND() )
>         FROM `table` )
> ORDER BY id LIMIT 1;


That's pretty elegant. I should have mentioned subqueries too, since it's
something I work with also.

I think that would avoid forcing a scan of the entire table (or index), unlike
ORDER BY RAND() LIMIT 1.

Mattias

(OK - going back to work now...)



From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Fri Apr  7 17:06:26 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:06:26 -0700
Subject: [thelist] MySQL select random row [WAS: MySQL
	queries	and	AUTO_INCREMENT]
In-Reply-To: <20060407134020.3nau771geh444040@www.thorslund.us>
References: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EB4@kjserver1.kjhome.local>	<44369581.3020001@neptunewebworks.com>
	<4436A16B.8010204@thorslund.us>	<4436BBF6.1000007@neptunewebworks.com>	<bbc8fa430604071241ta21b0edga06702079deaf285@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060407134020.3nau771geh444040@www.thorslund.us>
Message-ID: <4436E262.6040701@neptunewebworks.com>

mattias at thorslund.us wrote:
> Quoting Matt Warden:
>>SELECT * FROM `table`
>>WHERE id >= (
>>        SELECT MIN(id) +  ROUND( ( MAX(id)-MIN(id) ) * RAND() )
>>        FROM `table` )
>>ORDER BY id LIMIT 1;
> 
> That's pretty elegant. I should have mentioned subqueries too, since it's
> something I work with also.

Yes, it is.  I shoulda thought about subqueries as well... Thanks Matt! 
  Plus it's easy to switch out to other RDBMSs with minimal 
modification.  E.g. in MSSQL, use TOP and add the mandatory second 
argument to ROUND, and remove the backticks or replace em with brackets:
SELECT TOP 1 * FROM table
WHERE id >= (
         SELECT MIN(id) +  ROUND( ( MAX(id)-MIN(id) ) * RAND(),0 )
         FROM table )
ORDER BY id

-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From anthony at baratta.com  Fri Apr  7 18:00:53 2006
From: anthony at baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Fri,  7 Apr 2006 16:00:53 -0700
Subject: [thelist] adding directories to the dotNet Local Assembly cache...
Message-ID: <7a64b86543d09b3eaa5a9dfc3c42fbf4@baratta.com>

Howdy...

I'm playing around with setting up assemblies that are shared among dotNetapplication on the same server. There are two ways, adding the assemblies to the Global Assembly Cache (GAC) or adding directories to the "application probe" directory path.

Now - adding to the GAC requires strong named assemblies. I've tried to follow the info here:

http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2003/04/28/strongnaming.html
http://aspalliance.com/394

to setup a strong named assembly - but when I add the assembly to the GAC via:

gacutil /i sample.dll

its not available. I get a namespace not found type error. And the assembly does not show up in the list of registered assemblies via the Framework Configuration Tool. So I thought I could add a virtual directory to the application directory tree and then add that directory to the "application probe" directory path. 

e.g. web.config
<configuration>
  <runtime>
     <assemblyBinding xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:asm.v1">
      <probing privatePath="bin\sbin"/>
    </assemblyBinding>
  </runtime>
</configuration>

but that didn't seem to work either, and I tried a few combinations of paths and slashes for the privatePath attribute.

So, has anyone here successfully created string named assemblies and stored them in the GAC? Or modified the probe directory paths so that the Framework will look in other directories besides "bin".

Thanks in advance.



From Ken at adOpenStatic.com  Fri Apr  7 20:54:23 2006
From: Ken at adOpenStatic.com (Ken Schaefer)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 11:54:23 +1000
Subject: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
Message-ID: <160489103479AB4892187638EE7D1E691F4EBB@kjserver1.kjhome.local>

: -----Original Message-----
: From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-
: bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Canfield, Joel
: Subject: Re: [thelist] vbscript: dateadd weekdays
:
: thanks for clarifying, Ken
: 
: > The documentation isn't clear about the
: > differences between
: > "d" and "w" (because there aren't any)
: 
: it does, though, say that 'd' means 'days' and 'w' means 'workdays',
: which, in my mind, implies a difference, whatever that might be.
: 
: So, is the only way to add working days (for me, that's Monday through
: Friday inclusive) to laboriously walk through the calendar using the
: Weekday function?

Um, no.

You know that every 7 days you have two weekend days.

All you need to know is:
a) How many days from the StartDate to the next Saturday
b) How many lots of 7 days there are between the next Saturday and your
EndDate
c) How many days between the Sunday and your end Date.

Cheers
Ken


From robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com  Sat Apr  8 07:40:35 2006
From: robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com (Robert Gormley)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:40:35 +1000
Subject: [thelist] mysqldump and crontab
Message-ID: <4437AF43.8070705@pennyonthesidewalk.com>

I'm trying to set up a mysqldump job by crontab - problem is, the job 
works via command line (bash shell on CentOS 4.3), but errors when run 
by crontab.

This is the command line:

/usr/local/bin/mysqldump -A --user=xxx --password=xxx | /usr/bin/bzip2 
-c > /home/backup/db/`date
    \+%Y%m%d`.sql.bz2

The above works fine.
When run through /etc/crontab:

51 6 * * * root /usr/local...

I get this error from the Cron Daemon:

/bin/bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
/bin/bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file

Anyone able to help?

Rob



From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sat Apr  8 15:33:35 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 08:33:35 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJKEJICKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Hi

I have been trying to write a login page for a website.  I want to restrict
certain pages of the site, and control this with a username and password. I
am having trouble with the first part of a series of scripts to do this.  My
problem is with the session_start() and session_destroy() functions.  Here
is the script:

<?php
//
// Function that returns the HTML FORM that is
// used to collect the user-name and password
//
function login_page($errorMessage)
{
  // Generate the Login-in page
  ?>

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC
    "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd" >
  <html>
  <head>
     <title>Login Page</title>
  </head>
  <body>
    <h2>Login Page</h2>
    <form method="POST" action="authenticate.php">

  <?
  // Include the formatted error message

  if (isset($errorMessage))
    echo
      "<h3><font color=red>$errorMessage</font></h3>";

  // Generate the login <form> layout
  ?>
    <table>
      <tr><td>Enter your user-name:</td>
          <td><input type="text" size=10
                   maxlength=10
                   name="formUsername"></td></tr>
      <tr><td>Enter your password:</td>
          <td><input type="password" size=10
                   maxlength=10
                   name="formPassword"></td></tr>
    </table>
    <p><input type="submit" value="Log in">
    </form>
    </body>
  </html>
  <?
}

//
// Function that returns HTML page showing that
// the user with the $currentLoginName is logged on
//
function logged_on_page($currentLoginName)
{

  // Generate the page that shows the user
  // is already authenticated and authorized
  ?>

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC
      "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd" >
  <html>
  <head>
     <title>Winestore</title>
  </head>
  <body>
    <h2>Winestore</h2>
    <h2>You are currently logged in as
        <?=$currentLoginName ?></h2>
    <a href="example.9-10.php">Logout</a>
  </body>
  </html>
  <?
}
// Main
session_start();

// Check if we have established a session
if (isset($HTTP_SESSION_VARS["authenticatedUser"]))
{
  // There is a user logged on
  logged_on_page(
          $HTTP_SESSION_VARS["authenticatedUser"]);
}
else
{
  // No session established, no POST variables
  // display the login form + any error message
  login_page($HTTP_SESSION_VARS["loginMessage"]);
 $errorMessage= $HTTP_SESSION_VARS["loginMessage"];
print "The error is:$errorMessage";
  session_destroy();
}
?>

When I run it I get the following error:

Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed: m
(2) in c:/program files/abria
merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93

Line 93 is //Main
Line 94 is session_start();

I also get the error:

Warning: Session object destruction failed in c:/program files/abria
merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 109

Line 109 is session_destroy();

I have scoured through several texts that I have, and I have scoured the net
for an answer to this problem, but I can't find anything.  I am using php
version 4.0.4 and I am using Windows xp.

Can anyone help.  I was wondering if it was trying to open a temporary file
that didn't exist and I am suppose to create one somewhere or something
liken that.

Thank you.

Regards

Santilal





From misterhaan at track7.org  Sat Apr  8 16:11:21 2006
From: misterhaan at track7.org (misterhaan)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:11:21 -0500
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJKEJICKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJKEJICKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <443826F9.30001@track7.org>

Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed: m
> (2) in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
>
> Line 93 is //Main
> Line 94 is session_start();
>   
Here it's trying to write to /tmp, which doesn't make much sense to 
Windows XP.  Edit your php.ini and change the temp directory setting to 
something that exists, like c:/windows/temp possibly.
> I also get the error:
>
> Warning: Session object destruction failed in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 109
>
> Line 109 is session_destroy();
>   
It can't destroy the session because it was never able to create one.  
If this doesn't go away though, you can suppress the message using 
@session_destroy() instead of session_destroy().  This isn't really 
fixing the problem though -- it's just hiding the warning.


From mwarden at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 18:27:39 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:27:39 -0400
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJKEJICKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJKEJICKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <443846EB.1030602@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> When I run it I get the following error:
> 
> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed: m
> (2) in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
> 
> Line 93 is //Main
> Line 94 is session_start();

Do a phpinfo() and tell us what the values of session.save_handler and
session.save_path are.

My guess is that session.save_handler is 'files' and session.save_path
is the default of '/tmp'. If you are on Windows, you have to change this
to a valid directory (e.g. c:/temp) in order to use PHP sessions.

You say: why wouldn't they set the default to a valid directory in the
Windows distribution?

An excellent question. The answer is 42.




(just in case:
http://www.google.com/search?q=the%20answer%20to%20life%2C%20the%20universe%2C%20and%20everything)


- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From Anthony at Baratta.com  Sat Apr  8 19:12:23 2006
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:12:23 -0700
Subject: [thelist] mysqldump and crontab
In-Reply-To: <4437AF43.8070705@pennyonthesidewalk.com>
References: <4437AF43.8070705@pennyonthesidewalk.com>
Message-ID: <44385167.4020003@Baratta.com>

Did you see your error??

/home/backup/db/`date

You have a back tick in there where it shouldn't be.


Robert Gormley wrote:
> I'm trying to set up a mysqldump job by crontab - problem is, the job 
> works via command line (bash shell on CentOS 4.3), but errors when run 
> by crontab.
> 
> This is the command line:
> 
> /usr/local/bin/mysqldump -A --user=xxx --password=xxx | /usr/bin/bzip2 
> -c > /home/backup/db/`date
>     \+%Y%m%d`.sql.bz2
> 
> The above works fine.
> When run through /etc/crontab:
> 
> 51 6 * * * root /usr/local...
> 
> I get this error from the Cron Daemon:
> 
> /bin/bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
> /bin/bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
> 
> Anyone able to help?
> 
> Rob
> 



From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sat Apr  8 19:40:28 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:40:28 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <443826F9.30001@track7.org>
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJIEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Thanks.

That sounds like the answer all right.  However, I can't seem to be able to
change the php.ini file.  I have searched for php.ini and I came up with
three hits.

One was called just php, one called php.ini-dist, and the third was also
called just php.  The first two were in a directory called c:\Program
Files\Abria Merlin\Php, while the third was in a file called c:\Program
Files\Abria Merlin\Php/pear/tests.  I am using Abria Merlins apache server.
The third file just looks like a batch file.  The first two are about the
same size - about 25kB.

I edited the first two files to make session.save_path c:\window\temp, and
rebooted my PC, but when I ran phpinfo(), I found that the seesion.save_path
was still /tmp.

So either I have edited the wrong php.ini file or it hasn't taken up the new
configuration.  Any ideas on how to make it do this?

Thanks again.  These little quirks drive you insane.

Cheers

Santilal


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of misterhaan
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 9:11 a.m.
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function


Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed:
m
> (2) in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
>
> Line 93 is //Main
> Line 94 is session_start();
>
Here it's trying to write to /tmp, which doesn't make much sense to
Windows XP.  Edit your php.ini and change the temp directory setting to
something that exists, like c:/windows/temp possibly.
> I also get the error:
>
> Warning: Session object destruction failed in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 109
>
> Line 109 is session_destroy();
>
It can't destroy the session because it was never able to create one.
If this doesn't go away though, you can suppress the message using
@session_destroy() instead of session_destroy().  This isn't really
fixing the problem though -- it's just hiding the warning.
--

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt !




From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sat Apr  8 19:44:05 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:44:05 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <443846EB.1030602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Thanks,

I have had another reply suggesting the same thing.  What should the setting
be for session.save_handler.  Is "files" OK.

Santilal

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matt Warden
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 11:28 a.m.
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> When I run it I get the following error:
>
> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed:
m
> (2) in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
>
> Line 93 is //Main
> Line 94 is session_start();

Do a phpinfo() and tell us what the values of session.save_handler and
session.save_path are.

My guess is that session.save_handler is 'files' and session.save_path
is the default of '/tmp'. If you are on Windows, you have to change this
to a valid directory (e.g. c:/temp) in order to use PHP sessions.

You say: why wouldn't they set the default to a valid directory in the
Windows distribution?

An excellent question. The answer is 42.




(just in case:
http://www.google.com/search?q=the%20answer%20to%20life%2C%20the%20universe%
2C%20and%20everything)


- --
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFEOEbrrI3LObhzHRMRAljvAJoCorckLMI87bBPjacQqFDHOQUhSgCeNOjy
gt/gxT2+Gv1ib356G5Huns8=
=zWhL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt !




From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sat Apr  8 19:33:42 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:33:42 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <443826F9.30001@track7.org>
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJJCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Thanks.

That sounds like the answer all right.  However, I can't seem to be able to
change the php.ini file.  I have searched for php.ini and I came up with
three hits.

One was called just php, one called php.ini-dist, and the third was also
called just php.  The first two were in a directory called c:\Program
Files\Abria Merlin\Php, while the third was in a file called c:\Program
Files\Abria Merlin\Php/pear/tests.  I am using Abria Merlins apache server.
The third file just looks like a batch file.  The first two are about the
same size - about 25kB.

I edited the first two files to make session.save_path c:\window\temp, and
rebooted my PC, but when I ran phpinfo(), I found that the seesion.save_path
was still /tmp.

So either I have edited the wrong php.ini file or it hasn't taken up the new
configuration.  Any ideas on how to make it do this?

Thanks again.  These little quirks drive you insane.

Cheers

Santilal


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of misterhaan
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 9:11 a.m.
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function


Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed:
m
> (2) in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
>
> Line 93 is //Main
> Line 94 is session_start();
>
Here it's trying to write to /tmp, which doesn't make much sense to
Windows XP.  Edit your php.ini and change the temp directory setting to
something that exists, like c:/windows/temp possibly.
> I also get the error:
>
> Warning: Session object destruction failed in c:/program files/abria
> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 109
>
> Line 109 is session_destroy();
>
It can't destroy the session because it was never able to create one.
If this doesn't go away though, you can suppress the message using
@session_destroy() instead of session_destroy().  This isn't really
fixing the problem though -- it's just hiding the warning.
--

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt !


From dejan at kozina.com  Sun Apr  9 01:56:06 2006
From: dejan at kozina.com (Dejan Kozina)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:56:06 +0200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJJCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJJCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4438B006.9050908@kozina.com>

You should make a copy of php.ini-dist somewhere in your path (like 
c:\windows), rename it to php.ini and edit this one.

djn

Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> Thanks.
> 
> That sounds like the answer all right.  However, I can't seem to be able to
> change the php.ini file.  I have searched for php.ini and I came up with
> three hits.
> 
> One was called just php, one called php.ini-dist, and the third was also
> called just php.  The first two were in a directory called c:\Program
> Files\Abria Merlin\Php, while the third was in a file called c:\Program
> Files\Abria Merlin\Php/pear/tests.  I am using Abria Merlins apache server.
> The third file just looks like a batch file.  The first two are about the
> same size - about 25kB.
> 
> I edited the first two files to make session.save_path c:\window\temp, and
> rebooted my PC, but when I ran phpinfo(), I found that the seesion.save_path
> was still /tmp.
> 
> So either I have edited the wrong php.ini file or it hasn't taken up the new
> configuration.  Any ideas on how to make it do this?
> 
> Thanks again.  These little quirks drive you insane.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Santilal
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of misterhaan
> Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 9:11 a.m.
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function
> 
> 
> Santilal Parbhu wrote:
>> Warning: open(/tmp\sess_c27a0a85456411904f81baebeda8e71d, O_RDWR) failed:
> m
>> (2) in c:/program files/abria
>> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 93
>>
>> Line 93 is //Main
>> Line 94 is session_start();
>>
> Here it's trying to write to /tmp, which doesn't make much sense to
> Windows XP.  Edit your php.ini and change the temp directory setting to
> something that exists, like c:/windows/temp possibly.
>> I also get the error:
>>
>> Warning: Session object destruction failed in c:/program files/abria
>> merlin/apache/htdocs/gameon/pages/alexbasketball/login.php on line 109
>>
>> Line 109 is session_destroy();
>>
> It can't destroy the session because it was never able to create one.
> If this doesn't go away though, you can suppress the message using
> @session_destroy() instead of session_destroy().  This isn't really
> fixing the problem though -- it's just hiding the warning.
> --
> 
> * * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
> http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
> For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
> and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 
> 

-- 
Dejan Kozina
Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225
http://www.kozina.com/  - e-mail: dejan at kozina.com


From robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com  Sun Apr  9 01:56:45 2006
From: robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com (Robert Gormley)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 16:56:45 +1000
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <4438B006.9050908@kozina.com>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJJCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
	<4438B006.9050908@kozina.com>
Message-ID: <4438B02D.6080404@pennyonthesidewalk.com>

Ideally, you should try to work off of php.ini-recommended as a base - I 
typically do this, even for a dev system, to try to ensure maximum 
performance / security - however, for development, you probably want to 
change the error logging options (there are two: display_errors = On, 
and log_errors = Off)

Rob

Dejan Kozina wrote:
> You should make a copy of php.ini-dist somewhere in your path (like 
> c:\windows), rename it to php.ini and edit this one.
>
>   




From rogerharness at comcast.net  Sun Apr  9 03:04:17 2006
From: rogerharness at comcast.net (rogerharness at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:04:17 +0000
Subject: [thelist] PHP/MySQL/sum()
Message-ID: <040920060804.12688.4438C001000C602E0000319022007507449C9C0A029D0E089D0A09019D@comcast.net>

E'volters,

I'm not really a 'from scratch" PHP/MySQL programmer. I just try to cut/paste/re-use code and try to make it work for whatever I'm trying to do. I know that the way I have this database set up would probably drive most real programmers crazy.

I only have 6 fields;
name
unique_id
class
class_date
hours
auto_number

In the database, there can be multiple records for the same person, with his same unique_id, but all for different classes, (Access, Excel, etc.).

With the following code, I'm able to successfully view all the person's classes, class dates, and class hours. But what I can't do is get a total of the hours. If Microsoft Access is 8 hours, and Microsoft Excel is 6 hours, I would like the total_hours to print 14. I've been messing with the sum() function, but no matter what I do, I can't get my PHP code to print it to the screen.

If I'm actually logged into my database, I'm able to do the 'select sum(hours) from my_table' thing, and get THAT to give me a correct total, but again, I can't get anything like that to actually work on my PHP/HTML page. I've googled/searched/etc, and have found tips, but I just can't seemt to make anything actually work. 

Does anyone have any help/pointers/advise with this situation?

Thank you for any help. (and please ignore the sloppy code/etc. A work in progress,

-Roger Harness

mysql_select_db("my_database");
$query = "select * from my_table where unique_id = '$unique_id'";
$result = mysql_query($query);
$num_results = mysql_num_rows($result);

echo "<p>Number of Completed classes: ".$num_results."</p>";

echo "<table border=1>";

for ($i=0; $i <$num_results; $i++)

{
        $row=mysql_fetch_array($result);

        echo "</td><td align=right>";
        echo htmlspecialchars( stripslashes($row["class_date"]));
        echo "</td>";

        echo "<td>";
        echo htmlspecialchars( stripslashes($row["class"]));
        echo "</td>";

        echo "<td>";
        echo ($row["hours"]);
        echo "</td></tr>";
}
echo "</table>";


From evolt at kasimir-k.fi  Sun Apr  9 04:34:42 2006
From: evolt at kasimir-k.fi (kasimir-k)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:34:42 +0000
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJIEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJIEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4438D532.50102@kasimir-k.fi>

Santilal Parbhu scribeva in 09/04/2006 0:40:
> I edited the first two files to make session.save_path c:\window\temp, and
> rebooted my PC, but when I ran phpinfo(), I found that the seesion.save_path
> was still /tmp.

Make sure also that the directory you specify exists - and is 
"c:\window\temp" typo here, or in your php.ini, or is your system 
directory really "window", not "windows" ;-)

Another gotcha I could imagine: make sure that in php.ini you don't have 
session.save_path set twice, first to C:\windows\temp and later to /tmp

> So either I have edited the wrong php.ini file or it hasn't taken up the new
> configuration.  Any ideas on how to make it do this?

phpinfo() tells you also the path of php.ini, in the first section 
there's entry "Configuration File (php.ini) Path"


.k


From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Sun Apr  9 04:38:02 2006
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:38:02 +0200
Subject: [thelist] PHP/MySQL/sum()
In-Reply-To: <040920060804.12688.4438C001000C602E0000319022007507449C9C0A029D0E089D0A09019D@comcast.net>
References: <040920060804.12688.4438C001000C602E0000319022007507449C9C0A029D0E089D0A09019D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200604091138.03123.richard.bennett@skynet.be>

On Sunday 09 April 2006 10:04, rogerharness at comcast.net wrote:
> $query = "select * from my_table where unique_id = '$unique_id'";
Hi,
Replacing the above with something like this should do it:
$query = "select unique_id, max(name) as name, sum(hours) as hours from 
my_table where unique_id = '$unique_id' group by unique_id";

Hope that's what you meant.

Richard


From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sun Apr  9 06:13:37 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:13:37 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <4438D532.50102@kasimir-k.fi>
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJAEJNCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Thanks for the help.

Unfortunately I am no further ahead.

>From phpinfo I have copied and pasted the following:

Configuration File (php.ini) Path php.ini

I presume this means that the php.ini file is in the same directory as php.
I have found a php.ini file in the same directory and edited it as below.

I have copied and pasted the following from php.ini:

session.save_handler      = files   ; handler used to store/retrieve data
session.save_path         = c:\WINDOWS\Temp; argument passed to save_handler
                                    ; in the case of files, this is the
                                    ; path where data files are stored

The directory c:\WINDOWS\Temp is exactly as in my directory structure.  This
looks right to me - any comments??

After re-booting I got the following from phpinfo:
session.save_handler	 files	 files
session.save_path		 /tmp 	/tmp

This suggests that the changes I made did not work.  I looked further and in
the environment area of phpinfo I found:

TEMP C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
TMP C:\WINDOWS\TEMP

I am not sure if the above two lines are relevant.

I also searched the php.ini file to see if the session.save_path could have
been set twice - but alas no.

The only thing I haven't done is edit the php.ini-dist file.  I know this
exists but I don't know what it's for or what it does.

It still seems to me that php is picking up the wrong path from somewhere,
but I don't know where.  Or could it be that php is not initialising each
time I reboot my PC.  When does php initialise??

Thanks everyone for your help - 	I'm sure we can crack this one.


Santilal

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of kasimir-k
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 9:35 p.m.
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function


Santilal Parbhu scribeva in 09/04/2006 0:40:
> I edited the first two files to make session.save_path c:\window\temp, and
> rebooted my PC, but when I ran phpinfo(), I found that the
seesion.save_path
> was still /tmp.

Make sure also that the directory you specify exists - and is
"c:\window\temp" typo here, or in your php.ini, or is your system
directory really "window", not "windows" ;-)

Another gotcha I could imagine: make sure that in php.ini you don't have
session.save_path set twice, first to C:\windows\temp and later to /tmp

> So either I have edited the wrong php.ini file or it hasn't taken up the
new
> configuration.  Any ideas on how to make it do this?

phpinfo() tells you also the path of php.ini, in the first section
there's entry "Configuration File (php.ini) Path"


.k
--

* * Please support the community that supports you.  * *
http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester
and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt !




From evolt at kasimir-k.fi  Sun Apr  9 09:19:06 2006
From: evolt at kasimir-k.fi (kasimir-k)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 14:19:06 +0000
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJAEJNCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJAEJNCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <443917DA.4090308@kasimir-k.fi>

Santilal Parbhu scribeva in 09/04/2006 11:13:
> Configuration File (php.ini) Path php.ini
> 
> I presume this means that the php.ini file is in the same directory as php.

Hmm... I'd expect to see absolute path for php.ini... but I don't know.

> session.save_handler      = files   ; handler used to store/retrieve data
> session.save_path         = c:\WINDOWS\Temp; argument passed to save_handler
>                                     ; in the case of files, this is the
>                                     ; path where data files are stored
> 
> The directory c:\WINDOWS\Temp is exactly as in my directory structure.  This
> looks right to me - any comments??

It looks right...

> After re-booting I got the following from phpinfo:
> session.save_handler	 files	 files
> session.save_path		 /tmp 	/tmp
> 
> This suggests that the changes I made did not work. 

True. Makes me think that PHP isn't finding the php.ini. Try moving it 
from php dircetory to C:\windows and restart Apache (no need to restart 
your computer).
http://php.net/manual/en/configuration.php

Or plan B: set the value in httpd.conf, .htaccess or script level using 
ini_set()
http://php.net/manual/en/function.ini-set.php
http://php.net/manual/en/ini.php

.k




From robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com  Sun Apr  9 09:35:22 2006
From: robert at pennyonthesidewalk.com (Robert Gormley)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:35:22 +1000
Subject: [thelist] mysqldump and crontab
In-Reply-To: <44385167.4020003@Baratta.com>
References: <4437AF43.8070705@pennyonthesidewalk.com>
	<44385167.4020003@Baratta.com>
Message-ID: <44391BAA.8040509@pennyonthesidewalk.com>

The backtick works fine interactively by the command line - but doesn't 
seem to be parsed by cron... is there any equivalent, or do I just need 
to do more escaping?

Rob

Anthony Baratta wrote:
> Did you see your error??
>
> /home/backup/db/`date
>
> You have a back tick in there where it shouldn't be.
>
>
> Robert Gormley wrote:
>   
>> I'm trying to set up a mysqldump job by crontab - problem is, the job 
>> works via command line (bash shell on CentOS 4.3), but errors when run 
>> by crontab.
>>
>> This is the command line:
>>
>> /usr/local/bin/mysqldump -A --user=xxx --password=xxx | /usr/bin/bzip2 
>> -c > /home/backup/db/`date
>>     \+%Y%m%d`.sql.bz2
>>
>> The above works fine.
>> When run through /etc/crontab:
>>
>> 51 6 * * * root /usr/local...
>>
>> I get this error from the Cron Daemon:
>>
>> /bin/bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
>> /bin/bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
>>
>> Anyone able to help?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>     
>
>   




From hassan at webtuitive.com  Sun Apr  9 10:20:58 2006
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:20:58 -0700
Subject: [thelist] mysqldump and crontab
In-Reply-To: <44391BAA.8040509@pennyonthesidewalk.com>
References: <4437AF43.8070705@pennyonthesidewalk.com>	<44385167.4020003@Baratta.com>
	<44391BAA.8040509@pennyonthesidewalk.com>
Message-ID: <4439265A.5010103@webtuitive.com>

Robert Gormley wrote:
> The backtick works fine interactively by the command line - but doesn't 
> seem to be parsed by cron... is there any equivalent, or do I just need 
> to do more escaping?

By default, cron runs /bin/sh, not bash -- subtle differences, but...

>>>I'm trying to set up a mysqldump job by crontab - problem is, the job 
>>>works via command line (bash shell on CentOS 4.3)

>>>/usr/local/bin/mysqldump -A --user=xxx --password=xxx | /usr/bin/bzip2 
>>>-c > /home/backup/db/`date
>>>    \+%Y%m%d`.sql.bz2

I'd first try putting the full path of `date` in there; if that's
no help, put the entire command in a shell script and invoke *that*
from cron.

Just for grins, I made a shell script from this, adjusted for local
conditions :-) and ran that from cron successfully (SuSE 9.1).

HTH!
-- 
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
                opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com
				
                          dream.  code.




From misterhaan at track7.org  Sun Apr  9 10:40:52 2006
From: misterhaan at track7.org (misterhaan)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:40:52 -0500
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <443917DA.4090308@kasimir-k.fi>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJAEJNCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
	<443917DA.4090308@kasimir-k.fi>
Message-ID: <44392B04.1000708@track7.org>

Santilal Parbhu scribeva in 09/04/2006 11:13:
> session.save_handler      = files   ; handler used to store/retrieve data
> session.save_path         = c:\WINDOWS\Temp; argument passed to save_handler
>                                     ; in the case of files, this is the
>                                     ; path where data files are stored
>
> The directory c:\WINDOWS\Temp is exactly as in my directory structure.  This
> looks right to me - any comments??
You probably need to either use forward slashes (c:/windows/temp), or 
escape your backslashes (c:\\windows\\temp)


From lists at neptunewebworks.com  Sun Apr  9 14:03:39 2006
From: lists at neptunewebworks.com (Max Schwanekamp)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 12:03:39 -0700
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
References: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJMEJKCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>
Message-ID: <44395A8B.4080502@neptunewebworks.com>

Santilal Parbhu wrote:
> I have had another reply suggesting the same thing.  What should the setting
> be for session.save_handler.  Is "files" OK.

That is what it should be in most cases.  Probably best to override it 
in the apps that use another storage engine for session data.  E.g. an 
app that stores session data in a database would call 
session_set_save_handler() (or the equivalent using ini_set()) to set 
this differently.

The important thing is that when running php on Windows, this should be 
a valid windows path, e.g. C:\tmp and that directory must exist and be 
writeable.

Santilal Parbhu also wrote:
> I can't seem to be able to
> change the php.ini file.  I have searched for php.ini and I came up with
> three hits.

Run php_info() and look at the top block for the correct file.  E.g. on 
my dev machine php_info() gives this:
Configuration File (php.ini) Path 	C:\php\php.ini
You'll find lots of other useful info in the output from php_info(). 
N.B. Don't expose php_info() output to the open web!

A few other important settings that need valid windows paths:
extensions_dir
include_path
upload_tmp_dir

If this at all baffling, consider using WAMP[0] or XAMPP[1].  Your life 
will be much simpler.

[0] http://www.en.wampserver.com/
[1] http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html

-- 
Max Schwanekamp
http://www.neptunewebworks.com/


From thelist at cjmarsh.com  Sun Apr  9 14:26:50 2006
From: thelist at cjmarsh.com (Chris Marsh)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:26:50 +0100
Subject: [thelist] Corrupt File Downloads
Message-ID: <000101c65c0b$8d4d8020$0200000a@CJMLTP01>

All

I have a PC running Windows 2000. I have run Windows update to ensure that
the hotfixes are up to date. I can surf the web with no problems through a
browser. However, when I attempt to download any files that are not rendered
in the browser, I am prevented from doing so. The download appears to have
executed correctly (albeit far too swiftly), but the file is a fraction of
the correct size. I am getting no errors being reported, only the usual
"Download Complete" messages. I have tried clearing the cache, manually
clearing the temporary internet files directory, searching the HDD for any
files of the same name (in case a cache that I'm unaware of is in operation
- no files were found), and virus scanning the machine. The files that I
have tried to download are from many different organisations and locations,
and all have downloaded fine onto a different machine on the same network.
This problem occurs with Internet Explorer 6, and Mozilla 1.4 - there are no
other browsers installed. No proxy server is being used.

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm having a bit of a problem even coming up
with effective search terms for Google, and have hit a bit of a brick wall.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards

Chris Marsh



From volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 15:16:22 2006
From: volkan.ozcelik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-9?Q?VOLKAN_=D6Z=C7EL=DDK?=)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:16:22 +0300
Subject: [thelist] cron job for crawling web pages
In-Reply-To: <4434D424.4060802@webtuitive.com>
References: <dfc81b090604042335r49159752g2721688d806f2f6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfc81b090604052244s299949eesee2ad84ef1895ecc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4434D424.4060802@webtuitive.com>
Message-ID: <dfc81b090604091316j15b9ed43v437218197e2c7a2f@mail.gmail.com>

>I use VMWare to run instances of XP and W2K on my SuSE machine so
>that may not be exactly analogous, but it works great :-)

VMWare worked great except for a resolution issue (I could display at most
800*600, I've installed the vmware tools on the guest OS but things did not
change).


Thinking about the current project, I think I'll either use wget, or
I'd be calling some ruby script via a cron job to handle it since I need
something tailor-made.

Both swish and wget are nice tools to be kept in my repository for later use
none the less.

Thank you for all your help.
--
Volkan Ozcelik
+>Yep! I'm blogging! : http://www.volkanozcelik.com/volkanozcelik/blog/
+> My projects/studies/trials/errors : http://www.sarmal.com/


From rick.denhaan at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 15:18:58 2006
From: rick.denhaan at gmail.com (Rick den Haan)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 22:18:58 +0200
Subject: [thelist] Formatting rightholder's name...
Message-ID: <cb069f550604091318t18c85e72r870a57650d2ea37e@mail.gmail.com>

List,

I'm finally getting round to redesigning the website for my radio show - I'd
been unhappy with the current design since I first invented it in 2002, so
it's about time.

Since it's a Country & Western-programme, I'm trying to get a country feel
to it, which, to me, means browns and a bit of wood-pattern. I've chosen
blue for a contrasting color and I'd like your opinions on my current
design: http://www.countryexpress.nl/nieuw

But here's the issue. I want to use that photo of a rearing horse in the
banner. Having contacted the website the photo comes from, I'm allowed to
use it, if I mention the photographer's name. Currently, the banner says
"Foto: Jeremy Rynders".

However, the site is going to be multilingual (Dutch and English), so I
shouldn't really include "Foto", or I should make a different one that says
"Photo" for English. But most (local) visitors will come from
telephone-lines, so 5 Kbps max. The banner is 17KB, so I don't really want
to reload it every time a visitor changes their language. I've thought about
putting "(c) Jeremy Rynders" there, but I think that will be misinterpreted as
including the guitar, which is mine.

I could probably place the text somewhere else, but I've been meddling with
it for a while now and I rather like it as it is now. Apart from the fact
that English visitors will claim a spelling error....

Any tips?

Rick.




On a sidenote, I completely forgot to post a follow-up to the XLS Export
question I asked a while ago. After testing, we finally went for the PEAR
Spreadsheet_Excel_Writer package, which doesn't really need PEAR, as Dejan
Kozina mentioned. It is dependent on the PEAR OLE module and the
PEAR.phpfile, but uploading those files alongside our export script
worked
magnificently.


From psm2713 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  9 15:30:07 2006
From: psm2713 at hotmail.com (Ken Moore)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 14:30:07 -0600
Subject: [thelist] Pass vars to HTML in PHP
Message-ID: <BAY104-F6DF1C3E0C0A5ED848D0FFA6CF0@phx.gbl>

Hi all,

I am creating RSS feeds in tables as here:

<table>
  <tr>
    <td bgcolor="#339933">

The feeds work fine. The problem is that I need to color match about 20 to 
25 different sites. Rather than create 20 different pages that identical 
except for the color, I want to pass in the color, ?339933?, as a variable 
using PHP. I am pretty certain that this is possible. Please help..

Ken

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From mwarden at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 15:45:33 2006
From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 16:45:33 -0400
Subject: [thelist] Pass vars to HTML in PHP
In-Reply-To: <BAY104-F6DF1C3E0C0A5ED848D0FFA6CF0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY104-F6DF1C3E0C0A5ED848D0FFA6CF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <bbc8fa430604091345j179dae0du8205e91b6abaaac9@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/9/06, Ken Moore <psm2713 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am creating RSS feeds in tables as here:
>
> <table>
>   <tr>
>     <td bgcolor="#339933">
>
> The feeds work fine. The problem is that I need to color match about 20 to
> 25 different sites. Rather than create 20 different pages that identical
> except for the color, I want to pass in the color, "339933", as a variable
> using PHP. I am pretty certain that this is possible. Please help..

<table>
  <tr>
    <td bgcolor="#<?php echo (empty($_GET['color']) ? '339933' :
$_GET['color']); ?>">

This will give you the default color of #339933, unless there is a
query string variable named 'color':

http://myserver.com/path/myscript.php?color=995732

This will give you a color of #995732

hth,

--
Matt Warden
Miami University
Oxford, OH, USA
http://mattwarden.com


This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy.


From santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz  Sun Apr  9 20:11:38 2006
From: santilal at scorpioneng.co.nz (Santilal Parbhu)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:11:38 +1200
Subject: [thelist] php session_start() function
In-Reply-To: <443917DA.4090308@kasimir-k.fi>
Message-ID: <OBENLCOEBGPNPGMHDGNJIEJPCKAA.santilal@scorpioneng.co.nz>

Hey thanks guys,

Finally cracked it.  There was another file called php.ini in the
c:/WINDOWS/Temp directory.  I don't know why there were two (here and one in
the php directory).  Anyway I changed the seeion.save_path in the Windows
one, and that solved the problem.  Thanks for all the help - I have been
tearing my hair out over this one.

Cheers

Santilal

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of kasimir-k
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2006 2:19 a.m.
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] php session_start() function


Santilal Parbhu scribeva in 09/04/2006 11:13:
> Configuration File (php.ini) Path php.ini
>
> I presume this means that the php.ini file is in the same directory as
php.

Hmm... I'd expect to see absolute path for php.ini... but I don't know.

> session.save_handler      = files   ; handler used to store/retrieve data
> session.save_path         = c:\WINDOWS\Temp; argument passed to
save_handler
>                                     ; in the case of files, this is the
>                                     ; path where data files are stored
>
> The directory c:\WINDOWS\Temp is exactly as in my directory structure.
This
> looks right to me - any comments??

It looks right...

> After re-booting I got the following from phpinfo:
> session.save_handler	 files	 files
> session.save_path		 /tmp 	/tmp
>
> This suggests that the changes I made did not work.

True. Makes me think that PHP isn't finding the php.ini. Try moving it
from php dircetory to C:\windows and restart Apache (no need to restart
your computer).
http://php.net/manual/en/configuration.php

Or plan B: set the value in httpd.conf, .htaccess or script level using
ini_set()
http://php.net/manual/en/function.ini-set.php
http://php.net/manual/en/ini.php

.k


--

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From guy at thinkitbyhand.com  Sun Apr  9 01:18:37 2006
From: guy at thinkitbyhand.com (Guy Foresman)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 23:18:37 -0700
Subject: [thelist] Open Source Shooping Cart with Good Quickbooks Integration
Message-ID: <000501c65b9d$707a8ab0$650aa8c0@gforesman>

Hi, 
I am also looking into oscommerce for quick books integration as well as ups integration.  Have you been happy with what you have found and the results of integration into oscommerce or other shopping carts?

Thank you, 
Guy 
guy at thinkitbyhand.com