From todd at promisingsites.com Mon Sep 21 07:28:51 2009 From: todd at promisingsites.com (Todd Richards) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:28:51 -0500 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Message-ID: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Hello - I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 photos from an event they want to publish. I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for any suggestions! Todd From morrison.ben at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 09:24:56 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:24:56 +0100 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Message-ID: <6073aef90909210724y2be4d554u47ab7097394d4ba0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. Do you need the CMS todo everything? E.G. You could always use a service such as flickr to manage photos and pull in the pics with their API. http://www.flickr.com/services/api/ ben -- Ben Morrison From bobm at dottedi.biz Mon Sep 21 09:28:52 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:28:52 -0600 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Message-ID: <4AB78DA4.1010906@dottedi.biz> Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could write your own script as well. -- Bob Meetin www.dottedi.biz 303-926-0167 From dan.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 09:23:34 2009 From: dan.mccullough at gmail.com (Dan McCullough) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:23:34 -0400 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Message-ID: Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From rwd at csi1st.net Mon Sep 21 09:51:58 2009 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:51:58 -0500 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <4AB78DA4.1010906@dottedi.biz> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <4AB78DA4.1010906@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <4AB7930E.80905@csi1st.net> I have used Gallery on a couple of sites, one a roll-your-own, one a Drupal CMS. Gallery, http://gallery.menalto.com, provides for multiple image import and management via Gallery Remote, multiple galleries, sub-galleries, password protected galleries, several other nice features. It's also Open Source, download and install. Drupal has a module, http://drupal.org/project/gallery, for embedding Gallery 2 into a Drupal site. Drupal is Open Source, download and install. Ron D. Bob Meetin wrote: > Todd Richards wrote: > >> Hello - >> >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for any suggestions! >> >> Todd >> >> > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load > multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which > provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could > write your own script as well. > > From rob at rob-n-steph.net Mon Sep 21 10:01:37 2009 From: rob at rob-n-steph.net (Robert Lee) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:01:37 -0400 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Message-ID: <001201ca3acc$6caac230$46004690$@net> I have Wordpress with the NextGEN Gallery plugin, and I have been very happy with it. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Dan McCullough Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:24 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From fredthejonester at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 10:10:09 2009 From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:10:09 +0300 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Message-ID: <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie From todd at promisingsites.com Mon Sep 21 10:49:55 2009 From: todd at promisingsites.com (Todd Richards) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:49:55 -0500 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015b01ca3ad3$2d935060$88b9f120$@com> Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I appreciate the personal recommendations. And yes, I will look at Drupal again Fred! :) By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? No, not free but very reasonable. And they supposedly can do what I'm after. I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally about it. And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... Todd -----Original Message----- From: Fred Jones [mailto:fredthejonester at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:10 AM To: todd at promisingsites.com; thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie From willthemoor at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 11:11:45 2009 From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:11:45 -0700 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> Don't tie up your CMS decision with your media gallery decision. though media is content, sounds like that's only there to support your main content - events. As you start to want to extend the events model (adding more meta, possibly assigning users/groups/who knows), you'll be bummed that you went with the CMS that had bulk uploading as it's main feature. If anything, calendering is way thornier. Better questions are Does this support my existing workflow? Is this something I can maintain and extend? Is there enough support/documentation? Can I train content creators to use it? There are lots and lots of photo services/galleries that you can tie into your CMS. flickr, gallery2, zenphoto and about 123135135 more. One nice thing about zenphoto is that it will allow you to dump 100 photos via FTP or directly from windows. http://www.zenphoto.org/2009/07/zenphoto-uploader-for-windows/ No web form in the world is going to make uploading 100 photos fun though flickr comes closest. My boss writes this blog (http://cmsmyth.com). It's perhaps enterprise focused but I think a lot of it is very worth reading. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Fred Jones wrote: >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page > RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to > Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) > > Fred, Drupal groupie > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From willthemoor at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 11:18:21 2009 From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:18:21 -0700 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <015b01ca3ad3$2d935060$88b9f120$@com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> <015b01ca3ad3$2d935060$88b9f120$@com> Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210918s40a11bb8p72fe9422242faa60@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? ?No, > not free but very reasonable. ?And they supposedly can do what I'm after. > I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally > about it. ?And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... > Expression engine is pretty great. Lots of things are not obvious as far as custom implementations go (at least it wasn't to me). I think they agree as they've been working on a really huge overhaul for EE2. I've stopped recommending it to clients until I get a chance to see what they do there. Some things about it are just ridiculous to me for production work. For instance, it hard codes paths into the DB - a lot of them. Need to move from dev to production? Enjoy the pleasure of running 15 find and replaces on your SQL. Normally work on dev and push to prod? Enjoy that everytime. EE1.6 is a great CMS with (I think) a few serious shortcoming but EE2 looks to be a total and complete win. I'm actually excited about CMS. FML. From bobm at dottedi.biz Mon Sep 21 12:23:40 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:23:40 -0600 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB7B69C.2000400@dottedi.biz> Will wrote: > Don't tie up your CMS decision with your media gallery decision. > ==>> Totally in agreement. > though media is content, sounds like that's only there to support your > main content - events. As you start to want to extend the events model > (adding more meta, possibly assigning users/groups/who knows), you'll > be bummed that you went with the CMS that had bulk uploading as it's > main feature. If anything, calendering is way thornier. Better > questions are Does this support my existing workflow? Is this > something I can maintain and extend? Is there enough > support/documentation? Can I train content creators to use it? > ==>> You know your clients, their habits, their needs. Although there are great programs/components for the CMS's (RS2 Gallery for Joomla,, etc and I'm not promoting it, Drupal, etc.), it is not difficult to find or write a program yourself which can be used in any CMS that allows you to run custom scripts or custom code. The program will likely run faster if unconstrained by the CMS framework. Once you sort through how to handle user permissions then you're off to the races. > There are lots and lots of photo services/galleries that you can tie > into your CMS. flickr, gallery2, zenphoto and about 123135135 more. > One nice thing about zenphoto is that it will allow you to dump 100 > photos via FTP or directly from windows. > http://www.zenphoto.org/2009/07/zenphoto-uploader-for-windows/ No web > form in the world is going to make uploading 100 photos fun though > flickr comes closest. > > My boss writes this blog (http://cmsmyth.com). It's perhaps enterprise > focused but I think a lot of it is very worth reading. > > From marun2 at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 12:36:36 2009 From: marun2 at gmail.com (Mohan Arun L) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:06:36 +0530 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Message-ID: >>The ones I've been looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 photos from an event they want to publish. You may want to take a look at opensourcecms.com where they list every kind of open source cms possible along with links to demos. http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat= Regarding the photo gallery problem, instead of uploading photos one by one, you could ask them to ftp all the images to a folder, and then use custom code to display photos from that folder like a slideshow or a gallery using jquery. There are plenty of jquery slideshow/gallery plugins on the web. * * * * * * www.mohanarun.com Twitter: @marun2 From martin at easyweb.co.uk Mon Sep 21 14:38:57 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:38:57 +0100 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <4AB7B69C.2000400@dottedi.biz> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> <4AB7B69C.2000400@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <92C59914-11FC-4DE5-9FC1-F74630D2EA7E@easyweb.co.uk> On 21 Sep 2009, at 18:23, Bob Meetin wrote: > The program will likely run > faster if unconstrained by the CMS framework. Perhaps; although the time taken to develop it without the framework to help out will likely take longer. Whether paying for your time to do that development will be a better deal for your client than paying for higher end hardware to get the same result isn't a simplistic question. And 'fast enough' is not the same as 'as fast as possible' - the former is usually the better balanced goal. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From todd at promisingsites.com Mon Sep 21 13:43:22 2009 From: todd at promisingsites.com (Todd Richards) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:43:22 -0500 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations In-Reply-To: <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> References: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae@mail.gmail.com> <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006801ca3aeb$684bbcc0$38e33640$@com> Agreed - thanks Will (and Bob) for the reminder. There has been mention of using FTP for the file uploads. That is certainly a possibility, although I guess I was thinking of a way to have everything under one "admin" site to avoid multiple links/logins for them. I actually maintain a site for another venue, and use FTP to upload their pics all at once. I just assume it's too much of a hassle for someone else. But looking back on it, that really shouldn?t be that big of an issue. I only mentioned those two things as criteria because everything else they need seems to be pretty basic. So if beggers "could" be choosers, then that was what I was after. Thanks again! Todd -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Will Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:12 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Don't tie up your CMS decision with your media gallery decision. though media is content, sounds like that's only there to support your main content - events. As you start to want to extend the events model (adding more meta, possibly assigning users/groups/who knows), you'll be bummed that you went with the CMS that had bulk uploading as it's main feature. If anything, calendering is way thornier. Better questions are Does this support my existing workflow? Is this something I can maintain and extend? Is there enough support/documentation? Can I train content creators to use it? There are lots and lots of photo services/galleries that you can tie into your CMS. flickr, gallery2, zenphoto and about 123135135 more. One nice thing about zenphoto is that it will allow you to dump 100 photos via FTP or directly from windows. http://www.zenphoto.org/2009/07/zenphoto-uploader-for-windows/ No web form in the world is going to make uploading 100 photos fun though flickr comes closest. My boss writes this blog (http://cmsmyth.com). It's perhaps enterprise focused but I think a lot of it is very worth reading. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Fred Jones wrote: >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page > RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to > Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) > > Fred, Drupal groupie > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From sales at lycosa.co.uk Tue Sep 22 07:31:31 2009 From: sales at lycosa.co.uk (Sales @ Lycosa) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:31:31 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Hosting Shangri-La and [LAMP + Flash] vs. Silverlight? Message-ID: I am looking for hosting Shangri-La, but can?t quite find it My ideal hosting solution would be: Scalable, redundant, managed server with physical presence in US and UK, 24/7 telephone support with staff who know their onions, off-site backup, and a price tag that my wife would like ;-) Windows or Linux. What hosting companies and server types do people use? What companies do you recommend to use/avoid? I have used Acenet for about 6 years, and their hosting is fine, and their tech support (ticket) is adequate. They are US based, and I need a UK host for the majority of my customers (for better rank in Google UK), and run a smaller US hosting solution. I have a UK server with Tagadab, which is good, quite fast, and a decent price. Telephone support during office hours, but nothing really out of hours. I tried VPS.net, running Centos / cPanel, and found it very slow. I really wanted that to work, so that I could have a server in the UK and the US, and scale them accordingly. I also found that I had to manually add DNS records to their system to take advantage of their storage area network, so adding accounts in cPanel/WHM became more time consuming. Also, they do not allow emailing via scripts (without a quart of blood and your first born), so that screwed up some of the functions in my ecommerce solution. I am also trying a Windows VPS at Tagadab, which looks fine, but seems to carry the same email script limitations. I have looked at Rack Space, who seem to have a good reputation, and solid support (on paper). Rather pricey, though. Are they worth the price, or has anyone got any horror stories? I have built all my applications in PHP/MySQL, but one customer needs a Windows server, and is looking at Silverlight. I am therefore thinking of running all my other websites on a windows server, and maybe looking at Silverlight for development instead of LAMP + Flash (I have an old version of Flash and can?t justify the ?600+ for an application that I use occaisionally). What exeperiences do people have of running PHP/MySQL applications on Windows servers? Do they place nicely with the other MS tools? Does anyone else use Silverlight? What are your thoughts on this? Phil From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 22 08:45:20 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 07:45:20 -0600 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure Message-ID: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> My client says to do exactly what the designer asks. Background: I am using a template eCommerce system, am restyling it to meet the objective which includes database/php customizations as to how you navigate through the catagory/subcategory tree. The designer wishes to keep the site very clean by reducing the number of products in view when you get to the bottom level products listing page. The example: Sub-category ABC has 25 products. Rather than display the 25 products in a dynamically generated table of 3 or 4 columns across and whatever number of rows needed, she wants me to use either one or two product scrollers which will probably show about 4 thumbnails horizontally with the scrolling mechanism. Yes it will appear to look cleaner. Aside from the fact that this will take substantial time to create as this is not how the software delivers the category/subcategory/product tree, I would appreciate some usability feedback. -Bob From rob at rob-n-steph.net Tue Sep 22 09:32:25 2009 From: rob at rob-n-steph.net (Robert Lee) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:32:25 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Hosting Shangri-La and [LAMP + Flash] vs. Silverlight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001ca3b91$8312e230$8938a690$@net> I would check the (verified) reviews on http://www.webhostingtalk.com for the various shared / VPS / dedicated solutions that exist in the UK and US. I have an older Windows server and run PHP / MySql without any issues. I see no real performance difference compared to my Linux VPS. HTH, Rob -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Sales @ Lycosa Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:32 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Hosting Shangri-La and [LAMP + Flash] vs. Silverlight? I am looking for hosting Shangri-La, but can?t quite find it My ideal hosting solution would be: Scalable, redundant, managed server with physical presence in US and UK, 24/7 telephone support with staff who know their onions, off-site backup, and a price tag that my wife would like ;-) Windows or Linux. What hosting companies and server types do people use? What companies do you recommend to use/avoid? I have used Acenet for about 6 years, and their hosting is fine, and their tech support (ticket) is adequate. They are US based, and I need a UK host for the majority of my customers (for better rank in Google UK), and run a smaller US hosting solution. I have a UK server with Tagadab, which is good, quite fast, and a decent price. Telephone support during office hours, but nothing really out of hours. I tried VPS.net, running Centos / cPanel, and found it very slow. I really wanted that to work, so that I could have a server in the UK and the US, and scale them accordingly. I also found that I had to manually add DNS records to their system to take advantage of their storage area network, so adding accounts in cPanel/WHM became more time consuming. Also, they do not allow emailing via scripts (without a quart of blood and your first born), so that screwed up some of the functions in my ecommerce solution. I am also trying a Windows VPS at Tagadab, which looks fine, but seems to carry the same email script limitations. I have looked at Rack Space, who seem to have a good reputation, and solid support (on paper). Rather pricey, though. Are they worth the price, or has anyone got any horror stories? I have built all my applications in PHP/MySQL, but one customer needs a Windows server, and is looking at Silverlight. I am therefore thinking of running all my other websites on a windows server, and maybe looking at Silverlight for development instead of LAMP + Flash (I have an old version of Flash and can?t justify the ?600+ for an application that I use occaisionally). What exeperiences do people have of running PHP/MySQL applications on Windows servers? Do they place nicely with the other MS tools? Does anyone else use Silverlight? What are your thoughts on this? Phil -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 10:52:28 2009 From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:52:28 -0700 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Bob Meetin wrote: > The example: Sub-category ABC has 25 products. ?Rather than display the > 25 products in a dynamically generated table of 3 or 4 columns across > and whatever number of rows needed, she wants me to use either one or > two product scrollers which will probably show about 4 thumbnails > horizontally with the scrolling mechanism. ?Yes it will appear to look > cleaner. > > Aside from the fact that this will take substantial time to create as > this is not how the software delivers the category/subcategory/product > tree, I would appreciate some usability feedback. Personally I like to have the choice of seeing either a few larger images or a larger scannable selection at one time. (Sometimes tiny thumbnails are adequate, sometimes not.) So a items-per-page choice, e.g. [ 4 | 12 | all ] would be nice. Not that that's necessarily less work for you :-) OTOH, horizontal "scrolling" of 25 items in chunks of 4 means the user has to continually scroll back and forth to compare; I think you would need to provide a "page" locator at least, identifying the group currently in view, and letting the user jump directly to a given "page". FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com twitter: @hassan From morrison.ben at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 10:56:05 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:56:05 +0100 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: > So a items-per-page choice, e.g. [ 4 | 12 | all ] would be nice. > > Not that that's necessarily less work for you :-) > > OTOH, horizontal "scrolling" of 25 items in chunks of 4 means the > user has to continually scroll back and forth to compare; I think you > would need to provide a "page" locator at least, identifying the group > currently in view, and letting the user jump directly to a given "page". It does all sound a little messy, horizontal scrolling never nice. How about suggesting to build a simple prototype page to gauge interaction?? Ben -- Ben Morrison From sales at lycosa.co.uk Tue Sep 22 11:03:39 2009 From: sales at lycosa.co.uk (Sales @ Lycosa) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:03:39 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Hosting Shangri-La and [LAMP + Flash] vs. Silverlight? In-Reply-To: <000001ca3b91$8312e230$8938a690$@net> Message-ID: <4EC17368E0884A95A069347341690429@DEV> Thanks Rob. I have indeed looked at webhostingtalk.com and looked at quite a lot of offerings. I find the folks on this list really know their onions, and have a lot of experience, so I'm hoping someone has found their hosting heaven, and would be willing to share their experiences. Thanks for the comment about PHP/MySQL. Phil From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 22 11:59:11 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:59:11 -0600 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB9025F.3000609@dottedi.biz> ben morrison wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Hassan Schroeder > wrote: > > >> So a items-per-page choice, e.g. [ 4 | 12 | all ] would be nice. >> >> Not that that's necessarily less work for you :-) >> >> OTOH, horizontal "scrolling" of 25 items in chunks of 4 means the >> user has to continually scroll back and forth to compare; I think you >> would need to provide a "page" locator at least, identifying the group >> currently in view, and letting the user jump directly to a given "page". >> >> It does all sound a little messy, horizontal scrolling never nice. >> >> How about suggesting to build a simple prototype page to gauge interaction?? >> >> Ben >> Unfortunately I'm a little jaded here in my opinion, perhaps even opinionated. In this case the items the items primarily differ in color. It does make it more difficult to compare. I tend to think it's a foolish use of a tight budget as well, but that's just me. Before this response I started googling horizontal scrollbars to build a simple prototype as suggested, but the examples I've found so far fail to make blocks scroll horizontally. Each block would have an image and perhaps a title under it.

whatever

whatever

whatever
This gives me a horizontal scrollbar but does not force or float the images with block to live on one line. Over, Bob From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 22 12:09:27 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:09:27 -0600 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB904C7.90408@dottedi.biz> anyhow this works for the horizontal scroller.

whatever

whatever

whatever
From david at chelseacreekstudio.com Tue Sep 22 11:22:51 2009 From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:22:51 -0400 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB8F9DB.8000901@chelseacreekstudio.com> ben morrison wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Hassan Schroeder > wrote: > > >> So a items-per-page choice, e.g. [ 4 | 12 | all ] would be nice. >> >> Not that that's necessarily less work for you :-) >> >> OTOH, horizontal "scrolling" of 25 items in chunks of 4 means the >> user has to continually scroll back and forth to compare; I think you >> would need to provide a "page" locator at least, identifying the group >> currently in view, and letting the user jump directly to a given "page". >> > > > It does all sound a little messy, horizontal scrolling never nice. > For sure! > How about suggesting to build a simple prototype page to gauge interaction?? > > Ben > And provide an alternative: 4 divisions with 6 products each. The first division always open. Two, three, and four expand/collapse. From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 22 12:54:04 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:54:04 -0600 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <4AB8F9DB.8000901@chelseacreekstudio.com> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> <4AB8F9DB.8000901@chelseacreekstudio.com> Message-ID: <4AB90F3C.6010105@dottedi.biz> David Laakso wrote: > ben morrison wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Hassan Schroeder >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> So a items-per-page choice, e.g. [ 4 | 12 | all ] would be nice. >>> >>> Not that that's necessarily less work for you :-) >>> >>> OTOH, horizontal "scrolling" of 25 items in chunks of 4 means the >>> user has to continually scroll back and forth to compare; I think you >>> would need to provide a "page" locator at least, identifying the group >>> currently in view, and letting the user jump directly to a given "page". >>> >>> >> It does all sound a little messy, horizontal scrolling never nice. >> >> >> For sure! >> >> How about suggesting to build a simple prototype page to gauge interaction?? >> >> Ben >> >> >> And provide an alternative: >> >> 4 divisions with 6 products each. >> The first division always open. >> Two, three, and four expand/collapse. >> >> >> 4 divisions always open - i thought about something like this when i set up the product page where she wanted a scroller. i set it up so that if there are less than 4 items then it displays the pieces with no scroller. i could use the same if/else logic. but anyway you cut the mustard it's still less than perfectly user-friendly and cost-effective. -just a worker bee today, bob From tania.leonian at kabbalah.com Tue Sep 22 14:53:52 2009 From: tania.leonian at kabbalah.com (Tania Leonian) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:53:52 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF694363058095DE@KABEX02.KAB.local> Hi all - I'm moving to freelance work and want to know what a general ball park amount people charge for a simple, mostly content web site - maybe captures email addresses for newsletters, say about 5 separate pages with side bar content and menu bar? Or if this isn't the place and you can suggest a better way of going about it, that would be great. Thanks very much, Tania -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of thelist-request at lists.evolt.org Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:00 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: thelist Digest, Vol 79, Issue 20 Send thelist mailing list submissions to thelist at lists.evolt.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to thelist-request at lists.evolt.org You can reach the person managing the list at thelist-owner at lists.evolt.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of thelist digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Querying Vendor-specific CSS extensions (ivo) 2. CMS Recommendations (Todd Richards) 3. Re: CMS Recommendations (ben morrison) 4. Re: CMS Recommendations (Bob Meetin) 5. Re: CMS Recommendations (Dan McCullough) 6. Re: CMS Recommendations (Ron Dorman) 7. Re: CMS Recommendations (Robert Lee) 8. Re: CMS Recommendations (Fred Jones) 9. Re: CMS Recommendations (Todd Richards) 10. Re: CMS Recommendations (Will) 11. Re: CMS Recommendations (Will) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:36:10 -0700 (PDT) From: ivo Subject: [thelist] Querying Vendor-specific CSS extensions To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Message-ID: <565687.31133.qm at web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello listers, Can I use the JavaScript API (in IE or Mozilla) to query for Vendor-specific CSS properties applied to an element? (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#vendor-keywords) I have a stylesheet with vendor extensions and I need to check the elements to which specific ones are applied. Thanks, - Ivo ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:28:51 -0500 From: "Todd Richards" Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello - I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 photos from an event they want to publish. I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for any suggestions! Todd ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:24:56 +0100 From: ben morrison Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <6073aef90909210724y2be4d554u47ab7097394d4ba0 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. Do you need the CMS todo everything? E.G. You could always use a service such as flickr to manage photos and pull in the pics with their API. http://www.flickr.com/services/api/ ben -- Ben Morrison ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:28:52 -0600 From: Bob Meetin Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <4AB78DA4.1010906 at dottedi.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could write your own script as well. -- Bob Meetin www.dottedi.biz 303-926-0167 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:23:34 -0400 From: Dan McCullough Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:51:58 -0500 From: Ron Dorman Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: bobm at dottedi.biz, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <4AB7930E.80905 at csi1st.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have used Gallery on a couple of sites, one a roll-your-own, one a Drupal CMS. Gallery, http://gallery.menalto.com, provides for multiple image import and management via Gallery Remote, multiple galleries, sub-galleries, password protected galleries, several other nice features. It's also Open Source, download and install. Drupal has a module, http://drupal.org/project/gallery, for embedding Gallery 2 into a Drupal site. Drupal is Open Source, download and install. Ron D. Bob Meetin wrote: > Todd Richards wrote: > >> Hello - >> >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for any suggestions! >> >> Todd >> >> > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load > multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which > provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could > write your own script as well. > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:01:37 -0400 From: "Robert Lee" Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <001201ca3acc$6caac230$46004690$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have Wordpress with the NextGEN Gallery plugin, and I have been very happy with it. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Dan McCullough Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:24 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:10:09 +0300 From: Fred Jones Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:49:55 -0500 From: "Todd Richards" Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <015b01ca3ad3$2d935060$88b9f120$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I appreciate the personal recommendations. And yes, I will look at Drupal again Fred! :) By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? No, not free but very reasonable. And they supposedly can do what I'm after. I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally about it. And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... Todd -----Original Message----- From: Fred Jones [mailto:fredthejonester at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:10 AM To: todd at promisingsites.com; thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:11:45 -0700 From: Will Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Don't tie up your CMS decision with your media gallery decision. though media is content, sounds like that's only there to support your main content - events. As you start to want to extend the events model (adding more meta, possibly assigning users/groups/who knows), you'll be bummed that you went with the CMS that had bulk uploading as it's main feature. If anything, calendering is way thornier. Better questions are Does this support my existing workflow? Is this something I can maintain and extend? Is there enough support/documentation? Can I train content creators to use it? There are lots and lots of photo services/galleries that you can tie into your CMS. flickr, gallery2, zenphoto and about 123135135 more. One nice thing about zenphoto is that it will allow you to dump 100 photos via FTP or directly from windows. http://www.zenphoto.org/2009/07/zenphoto-uploader-for-windows/ No web form in the world is going to make uploading 100 photos fun though flickr comes closest. My boss writes this blog (http://cmsmyth.com). It's perhaps enterprise focused but I think a lot of it is very worth reading. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Fred Jones wrote: >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page > RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to > Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) > > Fred, Drupal groupie > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:18:21 -0700 From: Will Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210918s40a11bb8p72fe9422242faa60 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? ?No, > not free but very reasonable. ?And they supposedly can do what I'm after. > I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally > about it. ?And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... > Expression engine is pretty great. Lots of things are not obvious as far as custom implementations go (at least it wasn't to me). I think they agree as they've been working on a really huge overhaul for EE2. I've stopped recommending it to clients until I get a chance to see what they do there. Some things about it are just ridiculous to me for production work. For instance, it hard codes paths into the DB - a lot of them. Need to move from dev to production? Enjoy the pleasure of running 15 find and replaces on your SQL. Normally work on dev and push to prod? Enjoy that everytime. EE1.6 is a great CMS with (I think) a few serious shortcoming but EE2 looks to be a total and complete win. I'm actually excited about CMS. FML. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Help: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist Archives: http://lists.evolt.org End of thelist Digest, Vol 79, Issue 20 *************************************** __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4444 (20090921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4448 (20090922) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From sunlust at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 15:57:45 2009 From: sunlust at gmail.com (Krystian - Sunlust) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:57:45 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF694363058095DE@KABEX02.KAB.local> References: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF694363058095DE@KABEX02.KAB.local> Message-ID: There's lots of factors that impact the prize, for me usually the biggest is "what can the client afford?". You also didn't specify which country you're from. What's the quality of the work, do you have foundations to ask for a higher prize? And lastly, the old, good technique, check websites of web designers in your area, see if you can develop in a similar quality and then call them pretending youre a client and ask for a ballpark figure. :) Regards, -- Krystian Szastok Affordable, Freelance Web Designer in Eastbourne, East Sussex: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. From dan at danromanchik.com Tue Sep 22 17:42:01 2009 From: dan at danromanchik.com (Dan Romanchik) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:42:01 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Magento Programmer Needed Message-ID: I've just been brought in to make a site that uses Magento production- ready. Unfortunately, there are several problems with the site, and I've not worked with Magento before. So, what I'm looking for is for someone to help troubleshoot the existing problems and then help me come up to speed with programming Magento. You can phone me at 734-930-6564 from 9 am to 5 pm U.S. Eastern Daylight Time (UTC - 4hrs) or by sending me e-mail. Thanks, Dan Romanchik Web Publishing Group From jenni at theweblotus.com Tue Sep 22 17:55:50 2009 From: jenni at theweblotus.com (Jenni Beard) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:55:50 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF694363058095DE@KABEX02.KAB.local> Message-ID: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> In addition to the country, region is also a huge factor. Cities such as NY and LA are likely to have a significantly higher rate than Charleston, SC where I am. And, small towns in the Midwest US are likely to be even lower. I generally will talk at length with the client about the specifics of the project, including an idea of the type of design they're looking for. Then I develop a proposal that is an estimate based upon how many hours I anticipate putting into the project. For some clients who must have a set budgeted amount, I will sometimes do the site for a flat fee based upon the estimated hours, but prefer whenever possible to charge by the hour--this really helps when a client later says "but I also wanted..." or "I thought I also told you I wanted...". It also allows for the client who has millions of questions and wants to spend literally hours discussing them on the phone and via email, which of course is also time I must spend. Best, Jenni -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Krystian - Sunlust Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:58 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? There's lots of factors that impact the prize, for me usually the biggest is "what can the client afford?". You also didn't specify which country you're from. What's the quality of the work, do you have foundations to ask for a higher prize? And lastly, the old, good technique, check websites of web designers in your area, see if you can develop in a similar quality and then call them pretending youre a client and ask for a ballpark figure. :) Regards, -- Krystian Szastok Affordable, Freelance Web Designer in Eastbourne, East Sussex: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Tue Sep 22 18:39:22 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:39:22 +1200 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF694363058095DE@KABEX02.KAB.local> Message-ID: Hi Tania, How long is a piece of string? :) Items to consider: - does the client need professional design? Design costs will need to be factored in - does the client want to be able to update content / add pages themselves? In my experience, most don't initially and then realise later that they actually do. CMS integration may need to be factored in. Basically, figure out your base hourly rate and then roughly how many hours the work will take. My first freelance jobs were around $600 but I rarely do anything for less than $1,800 now, and this is just CMS integration and maybe some extra functionality (i.e.: no design work or IA etc). (Also bear in mind that I have a day job and probably charge less than half market rates.) Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Tania Leonian Sent: Wednesday, 23 September 2009 7:54 a.m. To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? Hi all - I'm moving to freelance work and want to know what a general ball park amount people charge for a simple, mostly content web site - maybe captures email addresses for newsletters, say about 5 separate pages with side bar content and menu bar? Or if this isn't the place and you can suggest a better way of going about it, that would be great. Thanks very much, Tania -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of thelist-request at lists.evolt.org Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:00 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: thelist Digest, Vol 79, Issue 20 Send thelist mailing list submissions to thelist at lists.evolt.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to thelist-request at lists.evolt.org You can reach the person managing the list at thelist-owner at lists.evolt.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of thelist digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Querying Vendor-specific CSS extensions (ivo) 2. CMS Recommendations (Todd Richards) 3. Re: CMS Recommendations (ben morrison) 4. Re: CMS Recommendations (Bob Meetin) 5. Re: CMS Recommendations (Dan McCullough) 6. Re: CMS Recommendations (Ron Dorman) 7. Re: CMS Recommendations (Robert Lee) 8. Re: CMS Recommendations (Fred Jones) 9. Re: CMS Recommendations (Todd Richards) 10. Re: CMS Recommendations (Will) 11. Re: CMS Recommendations (Will) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:36:10 -0700 (PDT) From: ivo Subject: [thelist] Querying Vendor-specific CSS extensions To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Message-ID: <565687.31133.qm at web53105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello listers, Can I use the JavaScript API (in IE or Mozilla) to query for Vendor-specific CSS properties applied to an element? (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#vendor-keywords) I have a stylesheet with vendor extensions and I need to check the elements to which specific ones are applied. Thanks, - Ivo ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:28:51 -0500 From: "Todd Richards" Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <02b001ca3ab7$167fa250$437ee6f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello - I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 photos from an event they want to publish. I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for any suggestions! Todd ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:24:56 +0100 From: ben morrison Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <6073aef90909210724y2be4d554u47ab7097394d4ba0 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. Do you need the CMS todo everything? E.G. You could always use a service such as flickr to manage photos and pull in the pics with their API. http://www.flickr.com/services/api/ ben -- Ben Morrison ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:28:52 -0600 From: Bob Meetin Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <4AB78DA4.1010906 at dottedi.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could write your own script as well. -- Bob Meetin www.dottedi.biz 303-926-0167 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:23:34 -0400 From: Dan McCullough Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:51:58 -0500 From: Ron Dorman Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: bobm at dottedi.biz, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <4AB7930E.80905 at csi1st.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have used Gallery on a couple of sites, one a roll-your-own, one a Drupal CMS. Gallery, http://gallery.menalto.com, provides for multiple image import and management via Gallery Remote, multiple galleries, sub-galleries, password protected galleries, several other nice features. It's also Open Source, download and install. Drupal has a module, http://drupal.org/project/gallery, for embedding Gallery 2 into a Drupal site. Drupal is Open Source, download and install. Ron D. Bob Meetin wrote: > Todd Richards wrote: > >> Hello - >> >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. >> >> Thanks for any suggestions! >> >> Todd >> >> > Joomla's Media Manager doesn't by default provide an option to load > multiple files, however there are several slideshow components which > provide this and/or the flexibility to upload a zip file. You could > write your own script as well. > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:01:37 -0400 From: "Robert Lee" Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <001201ca3acc$6caac230$46004690$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have Wordpress with the NextGEN Gallery plugin, and I have been very happy with it. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Dan McCullough Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:24 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Wordpress sounds like it would do the trick, I know its considered blog software but it can function easily as a CMS. You then could look into Gallery 2 plugin which is a photo gallery and I know that WP has plugins for Events. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > Hello - > > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, > click > the add button and choose your new file." That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Todd > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:10:09 +0300 From: Fred Jones Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <177c0a10909210810g12c17b34sea0387b86c81fcae at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:49:55 -0500 From: "Todd Richards" Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: Message-ID: <015b01ca3ad3$2d935060$88b9f120$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I appreciate the personal recommendations. And yes, I will look at Drupal again Fred! :) By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? No, not free but very reasonable. And they supposedly can do what I'm after. I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally about it. And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... Todd -----Original Message----- From: Fred Jones [mailto:fredthejonester at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:10 AM To: todd at promisingsites.com; thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations > I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a > big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. > > Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to > manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice > to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been > looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click > the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 > photos from an event they want to publish. > > I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I > can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something > that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) Fred, Drupal groupie ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:11:45 -0700 From: Will Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210911m3dd89622m72589f0e4b779d46 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Don't tie up your CMS decision with your media gallery decision. though media is content, sounds like that's only there to support your main content - events. As you start to want to extend the events model (adding more meta, possibly assigning users/groups/who knows), you'll be bummed that you went with the CMS that had bulk uploading as it's main feature. If anything, calendering is way thornier. Better questions are Does this support my existing workflow? Is this something I can maintain and extend? Is there enough support/documentation? Can I train content creators to use it? There are lots and lots of photo services/galleries that you can tie into your CMS. flickr, gallery2, zenphoto and about 123135135 more. One nice thing about zenphoto is that it will allow you to dump 100 photos via FTP or directly from windows. http://www.zenphoto.org/2009/07/zenphoto-uploader-for-windows/ No web form in the world is going to make uploading 100 photos fun though flickr comes closest. My boss writes this blog (http://cmsmyth.com). It's perhaps enterprise focused but I think a lot of it is very worth reading. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Fred Jones wrote: >> I'm looking for a good CMS for a site for a bar/restaurant. ?Flavor isn't a >> big deal - can either be .NET or PHP. ?However, free/cheap is important. >> >> Besides being easy to use, the two major "modules" that it needs is to >> manage events, and have a GOOD photo gallery. ?By "good", it would be nice >> to have the ability to upload multiple files at once. ?The ones I've been >> looking at have options such as "if you want to upload multiple files, click >> the add button and choose your new file." ?That won't work if you have 100 >> photos from an event they want to publish. >> >> I've looked at several, but without installing and hunting down modules, I >> can't tell if they will do what I need. ?So if anyone knows of something >> that fits the bill, I would greatly appreciate it. > > You will not find anything better than Drupal. Check out the home page > RIGHT NOW to see the latest post that a top-60 site is migrating to > Drupal. Get on the bandwagon dude. :) > > Fred, Drupal groupie > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:18:21 -0700 From: Will Subject: Re: [thelist] CMS Recommendations To: todd at promisingsites.com, "thelist at lists.evolt.org" Message-ID: <2506fbd50909210918s40a11bb8p72fe9422242faa60 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Todd Richards wrote: > By the way, has anyone used, or have feelings about ExpressionEngine? ?No, > not free but very reasonable. ?And they supposedly can do what I'm after. > I've read good things about them but haven't talked with anyone personally > about it. ?And I haven't had time to personally download and set up... > Expression engine is pretty great. Lots of things are not obvious as far as custom implementations go (at least it wasn't to me). I think they agree as they've been working on a really huge overhaul for EE2. I've stopped recommending it to clients until I get a chance to see what they do there. Some things about it are just ridiculous to me for production work. For instance, it hard codes paths into the DB - a lot of them. Need to move from dev to production? Enjoy the pleasure of running 15 find and replaces on your SQL. Normally work on dev and push to prod? Enjoy that everytime. EE1.6 is a great CMS with (I think) a few serious shortcoming but EE2 looks to be a total and complete win. I'm actually excited about CMS. FML. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Help: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist Archives: http://lists.evolt.org End of thelist Digest, Vol 79, Issue 20 *************************************** __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4444 (20090921) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4448 (20090922) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Tue Sep 22 19:18:16 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:18:16 +1200 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> Message-ID: Hi all, I choose to fixed price on an agreed set of deliverables. Clients love it (no surprises) and so do the companies who use me as an on-call developer resource (easy to budget for development resource when you know the cost up-front). My reality is that after a few projects I have a decent idea of what is involved. There is inevitably some area of uncertainty so I research and prepare as best I can, but am prepared to absorb some time overrun. I don't want to pass on the uncertainty cost to the client as I feel I should have a much better idea of technical uncertainty than the client - that's why they hire us right? One of the curses of our trade is that we're seen a little bit like plumbers and lawyers - i.e. we want access to your open wallet and will tell you "what it costs" when it's done. Consequently, trust for web developers overall is generally pretty low due to the wildly fluctuating pricing structure and quality of the end product we deliver. In my experience, "I though I told you... moments can be avoided by drafting up a set of requirements and agreed deliverables before you begin and getting it signed off by both parties - any wise professional will do that and those that don't will likely be burnt soon enough. Discussions about extra features etc can be handled by "that's not in scope for this phase, but I'm happy to discuss this once the project / site / application is completed". Regards, Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From willthemoor at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 19:26:10 2009 From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:26:10 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> Message-ID: <2506fbd50909221726r31f2975fsb51599c252905b74@mail.gmail.com> I'm with Paul on this one. The company I work for is generally time and materials because "technical uncertainty" is really generally the smallest of the uncertainties. For my own projects, I prefer fixed bid because it just makes everything outside of the design/dev work a whole lot easier. what's really important - developer, designer or plumber - is to get the client to sign off on the site's specs before your start work. Don't be shy about change orders and if you ever give something away, be sure to list it as a line item and then remove it from the total on your invoice. People should know how flexible you're being because a) it sets up expectations and b) makes the change order pill easier to swallow. On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Paul Bennett wrote: > Hi all, > > I choose to fixed price on an agreed set of deliverables. Clients love > it (no surprises) and so do the companies who use me as an on-call > developer resource (easy to budget for development resource when you > know the cost up-front). > > My reality is that after a few projects I have a decent idea of what is > involved. There is inevitably some area of uncertainty so I research and > prepare as best I can, but am prepared to absorb some time overrun. I > don't want to pass on the uncertainty cost to the client as I feel I > should have a much better idea of technical uncertainty than the client > - that's why they hire us right? > > One of the curses of our trade is that we're seen a little bit like > plumbers and lawyers - i.e. we want access to your open wallet and will > tell you "what it costs" when it's done. Consequently, trust for web > developers overall is generally pretty low due to the wildly fluctuating > pricing structure and quality of the end product we deliver. > > In my experience, "I though I told you... moments can be avoided by > drafting up a set of requirements and agreed deliverables before you > begin and getting it signed off by both parties - any wise professional > will do that and those that don't will likely be burnt soon enough. > Discussions about extra features etc can be handled by "that's not in > scope for this phase, but I'm happy to discuss this once the project / > site / application is completed". > > Regards, > Paul > > www.mch.govt.nz ?- ?www.teara.govt.nz ?- ?www.nzhistory.net.nz ?- ?www.nzlive.com > > The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. > > PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Sep 22 19:50:45 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:50:45 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6036A2F9-7EB5-41AA-97EB-77738C7338A8@easyweb.co.uk> On 23 Sep 2009, at 01:18, Paul Bennett wrote: > I choose to fixed price on an agreed set of deliverables. Clients love > it (no surprises) and so do the companies who use me as an on-call > developer resource (easy to budget for development resource when you > know the cost up-front). Yep - if you can nail down the scope and be iron-hard about it, then Fixed Price is a great way to go; it's by far the least risky for clients *who know what they want/need*. But, you absolutely *have* to stop yourself 'being helpful' and doing stuff that's not in that defined scope; behaving as a consultant on a delivery project is a direct route to losing money. > In my experience, "I though I told you... moments can be avoided by > drafting up a set of requirements and agreed deliverables before you > begin and getting it signed off by both parties - any wise > professional > will do that and those that don't will likely be burnt soon enough. Mind you, that also depends on having mature clients; I once had a particularly immature one (personally and as an organisation) who confused what had been discussed as things that *could* be done in the sales process, with what had been agreed as things that *would* be done in the final contract. And despite me having done a scope verification workshop on day 1 of the project (never A Bad Thing ime) and having the scope confirmed and signed off in writing by the individual, they still pulled out all the threats when later on, other fun stuff was not included in the go-live scope. > Discussions about extra features etc can be handled by "that's not in > scope for this phase, but I'm happy to discuss this once the project / > site / application is completed". Or, if you have the capacity to do so, "That's not currently in scope, but let's explore that in the context of a Change Request, and if we agree that it's A Good Thing (with all impacts to cost, timeline, quality etc updated), then we'll bring it in". Say, that reminds me: http://evolt.org/change-requests Cheers Martin (who must get round to writing a pricing article as it's now part of his job :-) ) -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Sep 22 19:54:26 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:54:26 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <2506fbd50909221726r31f2975fsb51599c252905b74@mail.gmail.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <2506fbd50909221726r31f2975fsb51599c252905b74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 23 Sep 2009, at 01:26, Will wrote: > what's really important - developer, designer or plumber - is to get > the client to sign off on the site's specs before your start work. ...if the client knows what they need/want (caveat: they're often not the same thing!) at the start. While that may be true for deep functionality, it's less true if you're in a world of iterative design typical of user-focused efforts. Although in that case, you may be able to fixed-price each iteration, even if you can't do the whole thing up front. (space left for those with experience of Agile development to contribute) Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From joel at bizba6.com Tue Sep 22 19:27:59 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:27:59 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> Message-ID: <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> > > I choose to fixed price on an agreed set of deliverables. Clients love > it (no surprises) and so do the companies who use me as an on-call > developer resource (easy to budget for development resource when you > know the cost up-front). > > I won't work any other way. Tracking hours is a pain, and automatically leads to reviews and inspection and explanation. joel From jenni at theweblotus.com Tue Sep 22 20:38:23 2009 From: jenni at theweblotus.com (Jenni Beard) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:38:23 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking hours, how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, usually the same ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 minute phone meetings (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu because you already covered all of those topics and answered those questions in your last meeting??? It seems that my small business clients are often like this, and when I do agree to a set price I end up working for a small fraction of my usual hourly rate as a result, and lose lots of time and energy on it! Though it seems rude to say "Oh, I already answered that for you before--you should have taken notes!" Yes, tracking hours is a pain, but so is wasting tons and tons of hours on a project that is supposed to be a simple 10 hour job. Thoughts??? Jenni -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Joel Canfield Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:28 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? > > I choose to fixed price on an agreed set of deliverables. Clients love > it (no surprises) and so do the companies who use me as an on-call > developer resource (easy to budget for development resource when you > know the cost up-front). > > I won't work any other way. Tracking hours is a pain, and automatically leads to reviews and inspection and explanation. joel -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From martin at easyweb.co.uk Tue Sep 22 20:59:38 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:59:38 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> Message-ID: On 23 Sep 2009, at 02:38, Jenni Beard wrote: > Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking > hours, > how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, usually > the same > ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 minute phone > meetings > (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu because you already > covered > all of those topics and answered those questions in your last > meeting??? In your pricing, you make assumptions about how much of this you're going to face - even if it's x% of your time over y days/weeks. But these tend to be the clients who aren't mature enough to work FP... Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Tue Sep 22 22:11:34 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:11:34 +1200 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <6036A2F9-7EB5-41AA-97EB-77738C7338A8@easyweb.co.uk> Message-ID: > But, you absolutely *have* to stop yourself 'being helpful' and doing > stuff that's not in that defined scope; behaving as a consultant on a > delivery project is a direct route to losing money. Absolutely. Fortunately I have great clients who have, without exception, been very reasonable. > Mind you, that also depends on having mature clients; Amen. The best business decision I made this year was to walk away from a project at the investigative stage. Over one month the 'project owner' changed 3 times and the project went from 'we want a basic website' to 'we need blogs, forums, user personalisation, social networking and ecommerce - oh, and we're on a really tight budget' 9 months later, the site still hasn't launched and I pity the poor sods who took that project on. :) Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From joel at bizba6.com Tue Sep 22 23:26:23 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:26:23 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> Message-ID: <619d00930909222126r4c2dbde8lddd2ea286250d7d1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Jenni Beard wrote: > Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking hours, > how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, usually the same > ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 minute phone meetings > (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu because you already covered > all of those topics and answered those questions in your last meeting??? Better project management. Also, a clearer perception of your role. Are you simply selling a website, or helping small businesses with their online marketing? If you're having meetings, answering questions, etc. then it sounds like you're actually trying to help folks. Why not accept that role, and see their incessant questions and 45 minute phone meetings as part of the job? They aren't technical. They don't know what you're doing behind the scenes. They may, in fact be hopelessly disorganized and actually need to ask the same questions over and over again. I think you have two choices: either work harder to find clients who are organized, efficient, and capable, or embrace your role as technical mentor, and make these poor confused people love you so much they don't CARE what it costs. And either way, charge enough for it. You're the professional, not them, right? Here's the single biggest secret you'll ever hear about how to provide excellent customer service that makes people love you: treat them like children. No, don't talk down to them and things like that. But if your kids ask you the same question this week as they did last week, do you get angry and suggest you might need different kids? No, you answer, over and over again from the age of 2 until they move out (and sometimes longer) because it's only through repetition that they learn. And if your kids are asking just because they need reassurance, you don't tell them to grow up and stop being needy; you let them know that you'll take care of them, don't worry about it, it's all under control. When it comes to technology, 99.9 percent of your clients are babes in the woods. Mother them, and enjoy the nurturing protecting mentoring role. I build hand-holding into my pricing. Some folks need a lot. They burn a lot of my time. If they really are a nuisance . . . um, I don't know. I haven't had a client who I wouldn't work with again (good hiring practices are important for contractors hiring clients, too.) But it will balance out; the needy time-sucks will balance the folks who let you work and get things done. After while, you'll know who's who and price second, third, and subsequent jobs accordingly. Of course, if you're not getting subsequent jobs, that's a different matter. If you are, you already know who's who. Build it into the price. joel From joel at bizba6.com Tue Sep 22 23:30:27 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:30:27 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <6036A2F9-7EB5-41AA-97EB-77738C7338A8@easyweb.co.uk> Message-ID: <619d00930909222130q3dc6d6ffn27254cd96366365a@mail.gmail.com> > > Absolutely. Fortunately I have great clients who have, without > exception, been very reasonable. > > and that's worth more than any project management process (no offense intended to project management processes, which are marvelous beyond words, even in kilts) I am very very selective about who I work with, and I long ago stopped having the kinds of clients that drive most developers mad. Now, if I could just learn the same lesson about hosting [1] I'd be singing like a lark. joel [1] okay, really I have; moving slowly away from Satan's Toolbox to other hosting From david at chelseacreekstudio.com Tue Sep 22 21:14:07 2009 From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:14:07 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> Message-ID: <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> Jenni Beard wrote: > Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking hours, > how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, usually the same > ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 minute phone meetings > (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu because you already covered > all of those topics and answered those questions in your last meeting??? > > Thoughts??? > > Jenni > Validate the client's markup and CSS (it's a nice touch if your site is valid, too). Get a gun permit. Buy gun and ammo. Inform client you have same. From barney at clickwork.net Wed Sep 23 03:58:29 2009 From: barney at clickwork.net (Barney Carroll) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:58:29 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= Message-ID: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, For a while now I've been working on an ecommerce web application whose content is largely arrived at by the filling in of large forms. As a way of saving valuable time I want to write javascript: bookmarklets which will populate the various forms with different content to make it easier to test a wide variety of permutations. So the bookmarklet so far is pretty much as follows: javascript:document.getElementById('productDescriptor1').value='this';document.getElementById('productDescriptor2').value='that'; I don't want to submit, or take any real action apart from pure pre-population, so forcing values is really all I want to do. When I enter this into the address bar and hit enter, the resulting behaviour is problematic: 1. Only the last command takes effect. For the script above, only productDescriptor2 gets 'that' assigned to it. 2. Immediately after the DOM script takes effect, I am given a document whose only content is the last value I assigned. Just a blank page with unformatted 'that', and the page I had been scripting for in my immediate history. Does anybody know what this might be about, and how I can get the script to behave as I'd expect? Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carroll at gmail.com 07594 506 381 From morrison.ben at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 04:19:24 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:19:24 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6073aef90909230219g5ccd67bfx8f2d0031a18dcaf4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Barney Carroll wrote: > Hi folks, > > For a while now I've been working on an ecommerce web application whose > content is largely arrived at by the filling in of large forms. As a way of > saving valuable time I want to write javascript: bookmarklets which will > populate the various forms with different content to make it easier to test > a wide variety of permutations. > > So the bookmarklet so far is pretty much as follows: > > javascript:document.getElementById('productDescriptor1').value='this';document.getElementById('productDescriptor2').value='that'; > > I don't want to submit, or take any real action apart from pure > pre-population, so forcing values is really all I want to do. > > When I enter this into the address bar and hit enter, the resulting > behaviour is problematic: > > ? 1. Only the last command takes effect. For the script above, only > ? productDescriptor2 gets 'that' assigned to it. > ? 2. Immediately after the DOM script takes effect, I am given a document > ? whose only content is the last value I assigned. Just a blank page with > ? unformatted 'that', and the page I had been scripting for in my immediate > ? history. You could look into creating a bookmarklet that inserts the JS into the page. javascript:(function(){document.body.appendChild(document.createElement('script')).src='** your external file URL here **';})(); That way you can keep maintenance of the files too :D ben -- Ben Morrison From morrison.ben at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 04:21:16 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:21:16 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <6073aef90909230219g5ccd67bfx8f2d0031a18dcaf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909230219g5ccd67bfx8f2d0031a18dcaf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6073aef90909230221u3a703049v376464bd166c97b8@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, ben morrison wrote: > You could look into creating a bookmarklet that inserts the JS into the page. > > javascript:(function(){document.body.appendChild(document.createElement('script')).src='** > your external file URL here **';})(); > > That way you can keep maintenance of the files too :D A quick search - http://juhukinners.com/2009/01/08/how-to-write-a-bookmarklet/ ben -- Ben Morrison From morrison.ben at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 03:58:25 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:58:25 +0100 Subject: [thelist] asked to rebuild an eCommerce category/subcategory/product structure In-Reply-To: <4AB904C7.90408@dottedi.biz> References: <4AB8D4F0.1060907@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909220852v7c2bcf8saf649eb9aea4e3c3@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909220856g4c75627exec11c075b070cf6f@mail.gmail.com> <4AB904C7.90408@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <6073aef90909230158w6c4003d3xddfbe138f258c842@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Bob Meetin wrote: > anyhow this works for the horizontal scroller. > > > >
> ?
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ben -- Ben Morrison From barney.carroll at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 04:46:26 2009 From: barney.carroll at gmail.com (Barney Carroll) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:46:26 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <6073aef90909230221u3a703049v376464bd166c97b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909230219g5ccd67bfx8f2d0031a18dcaf4@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909230221u3a703049v376464bd166c97b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472577830909230246g7181ec15mc5b6029350bf863a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Ben, > You could look into creating a bookmarklet that inserts the JS into the page. > > javascript:(function(){document.body.appendChild(document.createElement('script')).src='** > your external file URL here **';})(); > > That way you can keep maintenance of the files too :D Not too bad an idea ? I might stick to this because as you say, the script can then evolve over time without managing bookmarks. So it seems that what stops scripts entered via the URL bar from misbehaving is an appended '()'. Why is that? Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carroll at gmail.com 07594 506 381 2009/9/23 ben morrison > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM, ben morrison > wrote: > > > You could look into creating a bookmarklet that inserts the JS into the > page. > > > > > javascript:(function(){document.body.appendChild(document.createElement('script')).src='** > > your external file URL here **';})(); > > > > That way you can keep maintenance of the files too :D > > A quick search - > http://juhukinners.com/2009/01/08/how-to-write-a-bookmarklet/ > > ben > -- > Ben Morrison > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From morrison.ben at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 04:54:10 2009 From: morrison.ben at gmail.com (ben morrison) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:54:10 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <472577830909230246g7181ec15mc5b6029350bf863a@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909230219g5ccd67bfx8f2d0031a18dcaf4@mail.gmail.com> <6073aef90909230221u3a703049v376464bd166c97b8@mail.gmail.com> <472577830909230246g7181ec15mc5b6029350bf863a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6073aef90909230254t78198edcld596b6424e6de7ab@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Barney Carroll wrote: > Thanks Ben, > >> You could look into creating a bookmarklet that inserts the JS into the > page. >> >> > javascript:(function(){document.body.appendChild(document.createElement('script')).src='** >> your external file URL here **';})(); >> >> That way you can keep maintenance of the files too :D > > Not too bad an idea ? I might stick to this because as you say, the script > can then evolve over time without managing bookmarks. > > So it seems that what stops scripts entered via the URL bar from misbehaving > is an appended '()'. Why is that? () at the end just tells the js to run the anynomous function[0] But the difference is its only 1 function running. Your example had 2 lines of javascript execution, the first 1 ran in page, the second one just ended up as a new doc - a little odd yes. ben [0] http://www.hedgerwow.com/360/dhtml/js-anonymous-function-patterns.html -- Ben Morrison From nan at nanharbison.com Wed Sep 23 05:37:12 2009 From: nan at nanharbison.com (Nan Harbison) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 06:37:12 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com><619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com><11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> Message-ID: I am working with a client like this right now, ugh! I build a reasonale amount of phone/meeting time into the price and mention this in the contract, and warn them when they are getting close to the max that additional time will be additional hours. This client knows now that they are way over the max and I am now accumulating bonus money. There is no way I would have predicted that this client would have been such high maintenance, although often I know right away from talking to a potential client that they will fritter away my time on endless emails and phone calls. Nan Jenni Beard wrote: > Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking > hours, how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, > usually the same ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 > minute phone meetings (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu > because you already covered all of those topics and answered those questions in your last meeting??? > > Thoughts??? > > Jenni > From fredthejonester at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 04:15:07 2009 From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:15:07 +0300 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> Message-ID: <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> >> Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking hours, >> how do you handle the clients who ask incessant questions, usually the same >> ones over and over again, and insist upon having 45 minute phone meetings >> (or sometimes in person) that seem like d?j? vu because you already covered >> all of those topics and answered those questions in your last meeting??? That's one reason we almost *never* do fixed-fee jobs--and I think it's very hard to determine beforehand who will ask a million questions and who won't. The other reason we don't do fixed-fee is that scope always creeps and if you go back and ask for another $100 every day for this and that, you could end up looking like the creep. F From chris at gettheedgeonline.com Wed Sep 23 05:47:16 2009 From: chris at gettheedgeonline.com (Chris Dempsey) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:47:16 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Help speccing new web server hardware In-Reply-To: <6A66776656BE4F059B3E6C7E6D01F2A2@theedge.local> References: <6036A2F9-7EB5-41AA-97EB-77738C7338A8@easyweb.co.uk> <6A66776656BE4F059B3E6C7E6D01F2A2@theedge.local> Message-ID: <2B56E445B5CFF24FA32E2F4FB0112F222C8C11@sbserver.theedge.local> Hi All, We're looking at getting a new dedicated box and I'm trying to get an indication of whether the hardware suggested by the hosting company is suitable and allows room for projected growth. I would be taking a wild guess myself so I'm hoping someone can take impart an educated opinion. Server: - Intel Core2Duo 2.8 GHz, 4GB RAM, 2x 320GB HDD, RAID 1, - Unix (FreeBSD), PHP, & MySQL, Mail Websites: - About 160 websites right now - Almost all call the same database on each page load, no caching - 400, 000 page views per month right now with 50gb of data transfer and 5gb of file space used - Average of 3x POP3 accounts per domain each receiving 30x messages per day Potential Growth: - Up to 10x websites added per month - Potential to add another 100x websites immediately by taking over a large hosting account from another developer Is that enough information to suggest if the hardware noted above will cope with the potential growth over say a two or three year period? Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 23 September 2009 04:46 To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? > But, you absolutely *have* to stop yourself 'being helpful' and doing > stuff that's not in that defined scope; behaving as a consultant on a > delivery project is a direct route to losing money. Absolutely. Fortunately I have great clients who have, without exception, been very reasonable. > Mind you, that also depends on having mature clients; Amen. The best business decision I made this year was to walk away from a project at the investigative stage. Over one month the 'project owner' changed 3 times and the project went from 'we want a basic website' to 'we need blogs, forums, user personalisation, social networking and ecommerce - oh, and we're on a really tight budget' 9 months later, the site still hasn't launched and I pity the poor sods who took that project on. :) Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From randalrust at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 06:08:21 2009 From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:08:21 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Fred Jones wrote: >>> Ok, so for those of you who disagree with hourly rates and tracking hours, > > That's one reason we almost *never* do fixed-fee jobs I come from a public sector consulting background. I worked for an environmental engineering firm and for an IT consultant for the better part of a decade. I worked on hundreds of presentations, proposals and estimates in that time. Every single estimate was based on estimating the number of employees and hours it would take to complete a job based on the scope of work. Most projects required a project plan that showed tasks, the number of employees and the rate for the employee's services. All projects had a very well-defined scope of work and the budget always contained a contingency and allowed for change orders when the client decided to alter the scope. All of this has carried over into my own business, and I firmly believe the discipline I learned in doing those things over the years, especially time tracking, has been extremely valuable. I track my own hours and all of my subcontractors track their hours. All of our proposals and estimates are based on the scope of work and hourly rates. And I also include a contingency. Clients have a very easy time understanding the project budget when you break things down into hours for a particular task. IMO, the more clear and defined you can be in a scope of work, the better off the project will be. But you also have to include language that makes it very clear what happens when the project goes beyond the scope. Every big consultant out there, like Accenture, or your lawyer, bills by the hour. They track time and they bill you accordingly. This is how profit and loss, the bottom line for your business, is determined. The more projects that you have going, the more vital it is to track what you are doing, when you are doing it and who you are doing it for. All this being said, you have to do what is best for you and your situation. -- Randal Rust R.Squared Communications www.r2communications.com 614-370-0036 From bobm at dottedi.biz Wed Sep 23 10:07:45 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:07:45 -0600 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> Paul Bennett wrote: > Hi Tania, > > How long is a piece of string? :) > > Items to consider: > - does the client need professional design? Design costs will need to be > factored in > - does the client want to be able to update content / add pages > themselves? In my experience, most don't initially and then realise > later that they actually do. CMS integration may need to be factored in. > > Basically, figure out your base hourly rate and then roughly how many > hours the work will take. > My first freelance jobs were around $600 but I rarely do anything for > less than $1,800 now, and this is just CMS integration and maybe some > extra functionality (i.e.: no design work or IA etc). > (Also bear in mind that I have a day job and probably charge less than > half market rates.) > > Regards, > Paul There is no cut/dry single answer to how this will work. The package concept sounds attractive to the buyer but like many have said you have to be very specific about what the package contains, avoiding scope creep at all cost. Some clients will take advantage because they're always out for improving the deal, others simply don't know what it takes, others simply forget, lose track. I have folks who regularly call/email asking for this/that password, access code, etc. Or they've forgotten how to do something, lost the email, lost the URL to the FAQ. If they wrote the password on the wall, they'd forget and wallpaper the wall. For my own peace of mind I developed a billing application which keeps track of time, expenses, rates, discounts if applicable, task descriptions. I did this partly for my own sanity as I needed to see where my time is spent, even if I 'give' away an hour or two. It allows me to track webhosting and email hosting (both usually monthly but billed quarterly)as well. Some clients care only about the bottom line, that's fine. My common list of billable charges or discounts include: * Design/development * Research * Software licensing * Webhosting & email hosting * Domain registration * Discount * Non-profit vs commercial rate * Travel time - I should but this is sticky (you ever had a plumber out who didn't charge travel time?) Ditto to what Paul said about first jobs and rates. You, your neighbor's son Mikey, your Aunt Gertrude in Montana, can create an electronic business card in a couple hours but a web solution is far more involved. -Bob From bobm at dottedi.biz Wed Sep 23 10:42:38 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:42:38 -0600 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> Something obvious that I missed - waiting on clients. Ouch. You also have to consider how things work with clients who linger, professional procrastinators. You may develop something great, takes 40 hours, but you're in content limbo. If you don't charge until the job is done, then some jobs may never finish, not because you didn't do your part. From evolt at roselli.org Wed Sep 23 11:01:07 2009 From: evolt at roselli.org (aardvark) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:01:07 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <4ABA0E03.28635.C4DA88@localhost> On 23 Sep 2009 at 9:42, Bob Meetin wrote: > Something obvious that I missed - waiting on clients. Ouch. > > You also have to consider how things work with clients who linger, > professional procrastinators. You may develop something great, takes 40 > hours, but you're in content limbo. If you don't charge until the job > is done, then some jobs may never finish, not because you didn't do your > part. bill as you go... then they are paying as you do the work... if you charge an hourly rate then this becomes easy enough... put a clause in your agreement that states that the client has a responsibility to turn things around in a certain timeframe... if it's content that you fear will take forever, then put a clause in there giving them n days (30?) and state that if the client does not provide it, the project closes and you revert to standard rates and time & materials billing (you bill for what you do, regardless of a project fee)... you may not get through the entire budget as part of the project as a result, but you will still use the hours to launch the site as support hours and end up fine... if anything, this allows you to cover the spent ramping back up on a project after it's sat in limbo for months... in the end this protects you from clients that cannot get their content in place... From bwhite at webhostingsolutions.com Wed Sep 23 11:13:14 2009 From: bwhite at webhostingsolutions.com (Brian White) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:13:14 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: >Something obvious that I missed - waiting on clients. Ouch. > >You also have to consider how things work with clients who linger, >professional procrastinators. You may develop something great, >takes 40 hours, but you're in content limbo. If you don't charge >until the job is done, then some jobs may never finish, not because >you didn't do your part. This is something we've often struggled with. Some clients never completely finish their Web site content and leave a project languishing for a long time. Very few actually provide all content in a timely manner. Although we do collect 50% of the project's agreed upon final cost up front, naturally we'd like to avoid the "we don't have all the content" situation as much as possible. I'd be interested in knowing how some of you handle this. Do you include a financial penalty in your contract if all content is not supplied by a certain date? Do you require all content from the client before even agreeing to start a project? Other ideas or strategies? Thanks. -- Brian White President - WebHostingSolutions.com "Because Every Click Is A Customer" Web Hosting \ Web Design \ E-Commerce 1-888-522-3738 http://www.webhostingsolutions.com From jenni at theweblotus.com Wed Sep 23 12:35:59 2009 From: jenni at theweblotus.com (Jenni Beard) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:35:59 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> I do have a clause in all of my contracts that states, "If stoppage of work occurs for more than (30) days due to lack of feedback and/or content, The Web Lotus reserves the right to require final payment due immediately." That said, I've never actually exercised this because the few times I've brought it up, I received an extremely negative response and feared that not only would the client not come through with the content, but that he/she would also never pay me for the balance of the project. And while I do require a 50% deposit, often by the time that lack of receipt of content becomes an issue, I've invested more than 50% of the time allotted into the project. I've been burned too many times to risk that coming up again, so generally do not push my luck. I'm dealing with a client right now who is on a monthly agreement and is 4 months behind. She has not given me the content that I need to proceed with the work I'm supposed to be doing, but her contract stipulates that she pay the fee whether the two hours per month are used or not. It really isn't a large enough sum to be worth going into small claims court over it, and if I were to do so I would lose a client who might, once her business improves, become a better regular client. It is frustrating at best. And this is someone who when I am able to reach her (rarely), she launches into a "got to have it done yesterday" mode. It seems that so many of the small business owners that I contract with are rather unstable that way, though this one is more extreme than most. If I had work pouring in, I wouldn't exactly worry about keeping those clients, but times are really hard right now! Still haven't found the perfect way of handling this... Jenni -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Brian White Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:13 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? >Something obvious that I missed - waiting on clients. Ouch. > >You also have to consider how things work with clients who linger, >professional procrastinators. You may develop something great, >takes 40 hours, but you're in content limbo. If you don't charge >until the job is done, then some jobs may never finish, not because >you didn't do your part. This is something we've often struggled with. Some clients never completely finish their Web site content and leave a project languishing for a long time. Very few actually provide all content in a timely manner. Although we do collect 50% of the project's agreed upon final cost up front, naturally we'd like to avoid the "we don't have all the content" situation as much as possible. I'd be interested in knowing how some of you handle this. Do you include a financial penalty in your contract if all content is not supplied by a certain date? Do you require all content from the client before even agreeing to start a project? Other ideas or strategies? Thanks. -- Brian White President - WebHostingSolutions.com "Because Every Click Is A Customer" Web Hosting \ Web Design \ E-Commerce 1-888-522-3738 http://www.webhostingsolutions.com -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From hassan.schroeder at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 12:05:58 2009 From: hassan.schroeder at gmail.com (Hassan Schroeder) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:05:58 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <4eedb92a0909231005w27fd55f5g34dc8324548dd175@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Brian White wrote: > This is something we've often struggled with. Some clients never > completely finish their Web site content ... > I'd be interested in knowing how some of you handle this. Don't build a site that doesn't include a CMS. You're done when the CMS is ready to accept input; it's up to the client to populate it :-) -- Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder at gmail.com twitter: @hassan From randalrust at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 13:11:08 2009 From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:11:08 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4eedb92a0909231005w27fd55f5g34dc8324548dd175@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> <4eedb92a0909231005w27fd55f5g34dc8324548dd175@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: > Don't build a site that doesn't include a CMS. You're done when the > CMS is ready to accept input; it's up to the client to populate it ?:-) Further, you can eventually get paid to populate it for them. After they site there for about three months, too busy to deal with it. -- Randal Rust R.Squared Communications www.r2communications.com 614-370-0036 From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 23 14:31:57 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:31:57 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 23 Sep 2009, at 12:08, Randal Rust wrote: > Every big consultant out there, like Accenture, or your lawyer, bills > by the hour. They track time and they bill you accordingly. This is > how profit and loss, the bottom line for your business, is determined. > The more projects that you have going, the more vital it is to track > what you are doing, when you are doing it and who you are doing it > for. Sort of - every big consultant is charged to their project by the hour. Whether that gets passed on to the client (ie a T&M type contract) or not (FP) is a different matter. But the project's costs are hourly; so if you've got fixed revenue, and variable labour cost, monitoring and controlling timesheets is ?essential*. Cheers Martin (whose day job is for Accenture's biggest competitor and who lives this every sodding day. Don't talk to me about bloody exchange rates, either!) -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From randalrust at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 14:41:36 2009 From: randalrust at gmail.com (Randal Rust) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:41:36 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Martin Burns wrote: > Sort of - every big consultant is charged to their project by the > hour. Whether that gets passed on to the client (ie a T&M type > contract) or not (FP) is a different matter. Right. I did not mean to infer that the client's bill is always so straightforward:) -- Randal Rust R.Squared Communications www.r2communications.com 614-370-0036 From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 23 14:34:32 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:34:32 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: On 23 Sep 2009, at 16:07, Bob Meetin wrote: > My common list of billable charges or discounts include: ... > * Travel time - I should but this is sticky (you ever had a plumber > out who didn't charge travel time?) Yeah, there's a good compromise: travel time above travel to your normal office location. Which for some people (me!) is counted as home. > Ditto to what Paul said about first jobs and rates Yep - an unknown client naturally incurs greater risk, the contingency for which you need to price in. See also bigger jobs, new technology and a bunch of other factors Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Wed Sep 23 15:29:57 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:29:57 +1200 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> Message-ID: > That said, I've never actually exercised this because the few times I've > brought it up, I received an extremely negative response and feared that > not only would the client not come through with the content, but that > he/she would also never pay me for the balance of the project. And while Rod for your own back - clients won't respect you if you won't enforce your own rules. > I'm dealing with a client right now who is on a monthly agreement and is 4 > months behind. She has not given me the content that I need to proceed > with the work I'm supposed to be doing, but her contract stipulates that Take her site (and email if possible) down and tell her it will be back up when she pays. If she still won't, get a debt collector to collect the remaining amount and drop her. You don't need to waste your time with people like this - they're bad for business and will suck the joy from your life. Move on, you'll thank yourself later. > If I had work pouring in, I wouldn't exactly worry about keeping those > clients, but times are really hard right now! Do you have at least one dream client? Someone who pays on time, sticks to scope and loves what you do for them? Consider how they came to be your client, what makes the business relationship so successful and how you can get more clients like them and then go do it. Also, a down time is a great time to take a look at your business and consider ways to diversify your income, or reach out to new markets. Maybe you could run some (free or paid) seminars teaching people some of what you do? Maybe you could write and self-publish a book? Maybe you could start specialising rather than generalising? Maybe you could contract for work somewhere you haven't tried before? Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com Wed Sep 23 15:30:18 2009 From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee Kowalkowski) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:30:18 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?windows-1252?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fie?= =?windows-1252?q?lds_takes_me_to_new_page_=97_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <610592c90909231330y2e474bc6l555b2d52f3bf239@mail.gmail.com> 2009/9/23 Barney Carroll : > Hi folks, Hi Barney, Looks like Ben's sorted you out already, I just thought I'd volunteer an explanation. >javascript:document.getElementById('productDescriptor1').value='this';document.getElementById('productDescriptor2').value='that'; > ? 1. Only the last command takes effect. For the script above, only > ? productDescriptor2 gets 'that' assigned to it. I'm not clear how you concluded that, that's not what supposed to happen, perhaps there's a typo in the ID? Or perhaps that's just how it looks when it's not working properly. > ? 2. Immediately after the DOM script takes effect, I am given a document > ? whose only content is the last value I assigned. Just a blank page with > ? unformatted 'that', and the page I had been scripting for in my immediate > ? history. That's what most browsers do when they process JavaScript URIs. They evaluate the JavaScript and return the last evaluated statement as the requested resource. e.g. javascript:"Hello World!". You can prevent this by simply having "undefined" as your last JavaScript statement, but "void 0" is shortest as far as I know (Internet Explorer had quite a short URI length limit in bookmarks). This makes your JavaScript return nothing, and the browser keeps the current resource loaded. So you get "that" because the last thing you have is "='that'". The assignment operator returns the assigned value, that's why you can do "a=b=c=0" (a, b & c will be set to zero). -- Lee www.webdeavour.co.uk From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 23 16:52:18 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:52:18 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <619d00930909231452t4c666eb6u6e32dfd1b154d9e9@mail.gmail.com> > > This is something we've often struggled with. Some clients never > completely finish their Web site content and leave a project > languishing for a long time. Very few actually provide all content > in a timely manner. Although we do collect 50% of the project's > agreed upon final cost up front, naturally we'd like to avoid the "we > don't have all the content" situation as much as possible. > > I'd be interested in knowing how some of you handle this. we get 40% to start work, 40% when the *first complete draft* goes live. at that point I've usually done about 80% of the work, and I've got 80% of the money. if the client never finishes, I'm sad, but not out of money, and I've side-stepped the 'being nibbled to death by ducks' that can go on during the final phases. we also include a paragraph in the contract that if they haven't provided all the content within 60 days of contract signing, we can say 'done', collect the balance, and go home. haven't exercised it yet, but it's there. joel From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 23 17:02:09 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:02:09 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> References: <4ABA39C1.8080504@dottedi.biz> <4ABA41EE.1010108@dottedi.biz> <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> Message-ID: <619d00930909231502s4d95c4d0wf67e7be253986fa2@mail.gmail.com> > > That said, I've never actually exercised this because the few times I've > brought it up, I received an extremely negative response Jenni, you're dealing with the wrong people. You're a professional. There are folks out there who would love to have access to your dedication and willingness to get things done. > And while I do > require a 50% deposit, often by the time that lack of receipt of content > becomes an issue, I've invested more than 50% of the time allotted into the > project. I've been burned too many times to risk that coming up again, so > generally do not push my luck. > > Always always know before you get upside down on money. Structure your payments to protect you. *You* know you'll deliver; if the client balks, it's better they balk early than after you're in this situation. > I'm dealing with a client right now who is on a monthly agreement and is 4 > months behind. She has not given me the content that I need to proceed > with > the work I'm supposed to be doing, but her contract stipulates that she pay > the fee whether the two hours per month are used or not. It really isn't a > large enough sum to be worth going into small claims court over it, and if > I > were to do so I would lose a client who might, once her business improves, > become a better regular client. No, she won't. She is like this, now, already. Once her business improves, she'll still have the same personality. You will not be important to her then, because you're not important to her now. People's business practices and personalities don't change just because their financial situation does. > It seems that so many of the small business owners that I contract with are > rather unstable that way, though this one is more extreme than most. If I > had work pouring in, I wouldn't exactly worry about keeping those clients, > but times are really hard right now! Still haven't found the perfect way > of > handling this... > > Now I'll get all touchy-feely on you, Jenni?you will attract what you project, you will get what you expect. There are eleventy-leven bazillion small business folks out there who are ethical, honest, and reasonable. You're getting the goofballs because, somehow, that's what your marketing attracts. I know this because I've been on both sides of the coin. I used to struggle with nut jobs, hate dealing with customers, and generally be miserable at work, whether it was self-employment or a regular job. When I stopped accepting that this was my lot in life, and started demanding that others behaved themselves, or leave me alone, voila! I started getting clients who'd play along, treat me like an adult, and generally do the right thing. You're not a doormat. Don't accept that 'because times are tough I have to take crap clients.' There is no shortage of money, *only a shortage of trust that leads to spending.* Go out and give people a reason to trust that you're a hardworking person who'll put their needs first, if only they'll treat you like a professional. You will find those people, they'll shell out because people will ALWAYS find a way to buy what they really want, and, again I say, voila! Your own personal recession is over. Jenni, if you'd like to contact me offline, I would so love to share some specific things that'll help you get to do business with people who deserve you. Free. Free advice, worth, probably, more than it costs ;) joel From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 23 17:03:42 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:03:42 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> Message-ID: <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> > > Do you have at least one dream client? Someone who pays on time, sticks > to scope and loves what you do for them? Consider how they came to be > your client, what makes the business relationship so successful and how > you can get more clients like them and then go do it. > Bingo. Can I quote that somewhere, Paul? Haven't decided yet if it should go in a book or a blog, but it's such a simple, obvious, and *correct* answer. joel From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Wed Sep 23 15:04:34 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:04:34 +1200 Subject: [thelist] Javascript bookmarklet to populate fields takes me to new page - why? In-Reply-To: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Barney, Not going to feedback on the script, but the 'Web Developer toolbar' extension for firefox has this great function: forms > populate form fields. 2 clicks and your forms are filled in (with default values) and ready to submit. May want to give it a look? HTH :) Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Wed Sep 23 17:09:51 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:09:51 +1200 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Go for it Joel :) Jenni, I feel for you, because it sounds like your clients are sabotaging something you love to do. The upshot is that once you get some good clients, they tend to refer like-minded people, who in turn refer like-minded people, so the cycle perpetuates (so long as the value and service you deliver are consistently good and the relationship engenders trust). If all you're dealing with are childish nut-jobs and psychos, it's unlikely they'll refer anyone sane to you :) Regards, Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From tania.leonian at kabbalah.com Wed Sep 23 17:22:40 2009 From: tania.leonian at kabbalah.com (Tania Leonian) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:22:40 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? Message-ID: <7B40BE3A1E193F4A975DCF90DF69436305851D33@KABEX02.KAB.local> I just wanted to say thank you for all the great feedback on this question I posed. Thanks, Tania From support at inetcomputerproducts.com Wed Sep 23 19:06:02 2009 From: support at inetcomputerproducts.com (David Demko) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:06:02 -0500 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> Just wanted to point out that people have said a lot of great things here. One last suggestion I would have is to use a development server when you can. I get at least 50% upfront, as most have said, and I set up a temp site on one of my web servers until it is paid for in full and then move it to their server. David From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 23 14:28:39 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:28:39 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> References: <119701ca3bd7$d49df6d0$7dd9e470$@com> <619d00930909221727y18f59fd7o2d744a2fda4567c@mail.gmail.com> <11c601ca3bee$89e74210$9db5c630$@com> <4AB9846F.7050301@chelseacreekstudio.com> <177c0a10909230215n4f601ba3qc44fdb563ef29778@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040814A5-F790-4032-9AF2-31B6852FC80E@easyweb.co.uk> On 23 Sep 2009, at 10:15, Fred Jones wrote: > The other reason we don't do fixed-fee is > that scope always creeps and if you go back and ask for another $100 > every day for this and that, you could end up looking like the creep. Well no, because you clearly state (and agree) up-front what's in scope for the fixed price, and a process for changing that scope. Every single change is derived from the client's actions - either a specific request, or they've done something (like missed one of their dependencies) that requires extra work on your part. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz Wed Sep 23 19:37:38 2009 From: Paul.Bennett at mch.govt.nz (Paul Bennett) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:37:38 +1200 Subject: [thelist] Website promotion Message-ID: Hi all, After completing a site, I quite often get asked things like "Great! Now can you get to the first page of Google?" Rather than repeating a lengthy lecture responding to the question, I've put together a kind of 'website marketing 101' document for clients. I passed the first one on today and am waiting to see what kind of feedback I get Seeing as I'm sure a lot of people here get asked similar questions, I though I'd share it and see if anyone had any feedback (really - any at all, from grammar to composition to "you suck"). http://serf.co.nz/dev/generic/Website-Promotion-and-Marketing.pdf It's "unbranded" at the moment, and the links are kind of .NZ specific, but I'm happy to pass on the Word Doc if people want to use is as a base for a similar thing for their business / organistion. Regards, Paul www.mch.govt.nz - www.teara.govt.nz - www.nzhistory.net.nz - www.nzlive.com The information contained in this email message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and may contain information that is confidential or subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this email in error: please notify the Ministry for Culture and Heritage by return email or telephone (64 4 499 4229) and delete this email; you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE YOU PRINT THIS EMAIL From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 23 19:20:37 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:20:37 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> Message-ID: <55B091DA-4118-499B-A0BE-4765F689CB22@easyweb.co.uk> On 24 Sep 2009, at 01:06, David Demko wrote: > Just wanted to point out that people have said a lot of great things > here. > One last suggestion I would have is to use a development server when > you > can. I get at least 50% upfront, as most have said, and I set up a > temp > site on one of my web servers until it is paid for in full and then > move it > to their server. Combined with a standard contractual term that says use of your work in production implies full acceptance and liability for full payment. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 23 20:51:24 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:51:24 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Website promotion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <619d00930909231851j4726d308tcca677fb76a71703@mail.gmail.com> > > though I'd share it and see if anyone had any feedback (really - any at > all, from grammar to composition to "you suck"). > > http://serf.co.nz/dev/generic/Website-Promotion-and-Marketing.pdf Great basic content for the small biz owner who needs to make something happen but doesn't have a big budget. This is the first 20% they should do to get 80% of the results, but most never do. Needs formatting; even for just giving away to clients, or even ex-clients, pretty it up with logical formatting in the document, and 'pretty' formatting overall. Brand it, and give it away at your website as a 'free report' Nice work, Paul. joel From barney.carroll at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 00:35:03 2009 From: barney.carroll at gmail.com (Barney Carroll) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:35:03 +0100 Subject: [thelist] =?utf-8?q?Javascript_bookmarklet_to_populate_fields_tak?= =?utf-8?q?es_me_to_new_page_=E2=80=94_why=3F?= In-Reply-To: <610592c90909231330y2e474bc6l555b2d52f3bf239@mail.gmail.com> References: <472577830909230158p41f5cff7p3ccada88382b75fa@mail.gmail.com> <610592c90909231330y2e474bc6l555b2d52f3bf239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472577830909232235j1dcd2500x8ebf3acfb577e80c@mail.gmail.com> Lee, thanks. Nothing beats a solution like an explanation. :) Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carroll at gmail.com 07594 506 381 2009/9/23 Lee Kowalkowski > 2009/9/23 Barney Carroll : > > Hi folks, > > Hi Barney, > > Looks like Ben's sorted you out already, I just thought I'd volunteer > an explanation. > > > >javascript:document.getElementById('productDescriptor1').value='this';document.getElementById('productDescriptor2').value='that'; > > 1. Only the last command takes effect. For the script above, only > > productDescriptor2 gets 'that' assigned to it. > > I'm not clear how you concluded that, that's not what supposed to > happen, perhaps there's a typo in the ID? Or perhaps that's just how > it looks when it's not working properly. > > > 2. Immediately after the DOM script takes effect, I am given a document > > whose only content is the last value I assigned. Just a blank page with > > unformatted 'that', and the page I had been scripting for in my > immediate > > history. > > That's what most browsers do when they process JavaScript URIs. They > evaluate the JavaScript and return the last evaluated statement as the > requested resource. e.g. javascript:"Hello World!". You can prevent > this by simply having "undefined" as your last JavaScript statement, > but "void 0" is shortest as far as I know (Internet Explorer had quite > a short URI length limit in bookmarks). This makes your JavaScript > return nothing, and the browser keeps the current resource loaded. > > So you get "that" because the last thing you have is "='that'". The > assignment operator returns the assigned value, that's why you can do > "a=b=c=0" (a, b & c will be set to zero). > > -- > Lee > www.webdeavour.co.uk > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From marun2 at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 01:06:47 2009 From: marun2 at gmail.com (Mohan Arun L) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:36:47 +0530 Subject: [thelist] CMS Recommendations Message-ID: >>There has been mention of using FTP for the file uploads. That is certainly a possibility, although I guess I was thinking of a way to have everything under one "admin" site to avoid multiple links/logins for them. I actually maintain a site for another venue, and use FTP to upload their pics all at once. I just assume it's too much of a hassle for someone else. But looking back on it, that really shouldn?t be that big of an issue. If you can take a look at imagebam.com they have a way of uploading multiple images at once and it automatically creates 'image gallery' out of uploaded photos. With custom coded page for a photo gallery,. You could start with the most commonly used number of photos uploaded - say 5 at a time and provide a box to 'add one more file upload box' and click that as many times as necessary as there are number of photos, and you could upload them all at once and a common photo gallery code will make a gallery out of all the uploaded photos. * * * http://www.mohanarun.com Twitter: @marun2 * * * From nan at nanharbison.com Thu Sep 24 10:09:41 2009 From: nan at nanharbison.com (Nan Harbison) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:09:41 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> Message-ID: <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> This is excellent advice, does anyone have a good reference on how to go about doing this? I have been teetering on the edge of doing this, but needed a push and a source to help me! Thanks Nan -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of David Demko Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:06 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? Just wanted to point out that people have said a lot of great things here. One last suggestion I would have is to use a development server when you can. I get at least 50% upfront, as most have said, and I set up a temp site on one of my web servers until it is paid for in full and then move it to their server. David -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From joel at bizba6.com Thu Sep 24 10:25:41 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:25:41 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> Message-ID: <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Nan Harbison wrote: > This is excellent advice, does anyone have a good reference on how to go > about doing this? I have been teetering on the edge of doing this, but > needed a push and a source to help me! > Thanks > Nan You were asking, I think, about using a development server? The quick and dirty method for a small developer is to simply create a subdirectory for the client on your own website, do the development there, and don't transfer the code to their server until it's paid for (and working.) There are loads of more refined ways to do this as well. The quick and dirty requires thought about paths, and a handful of other things. Forethought and simple search/replace scripting can make that uncomplicated. I've rarely run into a site complex enough that this became challenging. joel From bobm at dottedi.biz Thu Sep 24 10:42:36 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:42:36 -0600 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> Unpaid consulting - as we're on the subject. I have a particularly faithful client for years running, pays bill on time, you know and love the type. However, there are pitfalls. Every time she hears about something new, I hear the "Bob, would you look into this for me?" It might be a half hour, perhaps an hour, who knows? Do you consider this kind of research to be billable, the clock is ticking, or an assumed part of the profession? We all should know all this stuff, right? And it increases are value, yes? -Bob From joel at bizba6.com Thu Sep 24 10:57:24 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:57:24 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <619d00930909240857x21e6c41bn137d719212a0c3f6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Bob Meetin wrote: > I have a particularly faithful client for years running, pays bill on > time, you know and love the type. However, there are pitfalls. Every > time she hears about something new, I hear the "Bob, would you look into > this for me?" It might be a half hour, perhaps an hour, who knows? > > Do you consider this kind of research to be billable, the clock is > ticking, or an assumed part of the profession? We all should know all > this stuff, right? And it increases are value, yes? *If* it adds value, do it. What's the percentage on her curiosity? As a general rule, does it turn into paid work? If not, do you enjoy working with her enough to do it free (which is what you're doing) ? Either way is fine, as long as you know. No, we shouldn't all know this stuff. We should be specialists; specialists get paid more. If you specialise in A, I specialise in B, and Jenni specialises in C, and we each refer to the other, our clients all get a higher level of expertise, we can legitimately charge more (or get things done faster and take in more work, or use the free time to write a book.) If a client asks us for something we know nothing (or not enough) about, we tell them "not our specialty." If they'd rather work with us than find someone else, we tell them right up front we'll charge $XX to do some research, or that we'll outsource the actual technical work, manage the project, and charge them more than if they went direct to our source (and we'll share our sources freely.) They usually ask us to do it because they trust us, and don't know the source. (You can make good money by establishing great trust relationships with people who have needs and people who fill those needs.) Don't try to be well-rounded. Be sharply pointed. Laser focus wins over well-rounded. joel -- joel at bizba6.com http://BusinessHeretics.com/ From pms at stoutstreet.com Thu Sep 24 10:32:11 2009 From: pms at stoutstreet.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:32:11 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABB90FB.6020903@stoutstreet.com> Joel Canfield wrote: > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Nan Harbison wrote: > >> This is excellent advice, does anyone have a good reference on how to go >> about doing this? I have been teetering on the edge of doing this, but >> needed a push and a source to help me! >> Thanks >> Nan > > > You were asking, I think, about using a development server? The quick and > dirty method for a small developer is to simply create a subdirectory for > the client on your own website, do the development there, and don't transfer > the code to their server until it's paid for (and working.) There are loads > of more refined ways to do this as well. > > The quick and dirty requires thought about paths, and a handful of other > things. Forethought and simple search/replace scripting can make that > uncomplicated. > > I've rarely run into a site complex enough that this became challenging. > > joel Similar to Joel's method, but I take it a step further and create a subdomain as well for each client, and this subdomain points to the client's folder. -- patrick sanders http://www.stoutstreet.com web sites that fit From bobm at dottedi.biz Thu Sep 24 11:30:48 2009 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:30:48 -0600 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABB9EB8.1040103@dottedi.biz> Joel Canfield wrote: > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Nan Harbison wrote: > > >> This is excellent advice, does anyone have a good reference on how to go >> about doing this? I have been teetering on the edge of doing this, but >> needed a push and a source to help me! >> Thanks >> Nan >> >> You were asking, I think, about using a development server? The quick and >> dirty method for a small developer is to simply create a subdirectory for >> the client on your own website, do the development there, and don't transfer >> the code to their server until it's paid for (and working.) There are loads >> of more refined ways to do this as well. >> >> The quick and dirty requires thought about paths, and a handful of other >> things. Forethought and simple search/replace scripting can make that >> uncomplicated. >> >> I've rarely run into a site complex enough that this became challenging. >> >> joel >> I do something very similar to this now. I made up several variations of a backup (and restore) script that can be used on either simple HTML or with a CMS. If you are working with a CMS you cruise the configuration file to make sure general pathing is correct. This is easy. If you know in advance that pathing will change then as you build the content files which may include links and/or images (stored in the database) you make sure the links are not contingent upon the development path. Someone mentioned waiting 4 months for a client to pay. That's pretty coincidental as I was asked a week back by one of the firms I do some subcontracting for to turn off a website (after 4 months of no payments). I ftp'd the website locally and removed the files from the host. -Bob From support at inetcomputerproducts.com Thu Sep 24 11:45:20 2009 From: support at inetcomputerproducts.com (David Demko) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:45:20 -0500 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> Message-ID: <03d501ca3d36$67582a40$36087ec0$@com> I will typically set up the account on one of my own domains, since they are so cheap now I have several that I just use for development projects. If I set them up in the root folder then transferring to their web host is very simple. I have also used sub-domains on my servers which, again, once you have done it a few times they are very easy to transfer over. One thing to be cautious of is that you need to know if they are using a Windows or Linux box for the web host - with that I just set one up on the same type of host and they get it when they pay for it. David -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Nan Harbison Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:10 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? This is excellent advice, does anyone have a good reference on how to go about doing this? I have been teetering on the edge of doing this, but needed a push and a source to help me! Thanks Nan From john.destefano at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 10:03:19 2009 From: john.destefano at gmail.com (John DeStefano) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:03:19 -0400 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari Message-ID: I'm working with a web application's stock style sheets and trying to customize a few things. I'm having trouble getting a logo image's size to play nicely with Safari, while the size seems to be working fine in other browsers. In the stylesheet definition for the logo id, I've specified a distinct height (30px), which is respected by Firefox, but Safari seems confused: the embedded source shows a height of 33, and the browser's info tools show a "computed style" height of 30. I've even tried making the height !important, with the same results. Interestingly, Safari's info tools display a strike-through on the 33px height, but that's the one that seems to be trumping my specified height anyway (see attached image, or this link if the attachment get stripped: http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/deesto/web/image-screen.png ). Thanks, ~John -------------- next part -------------- From tor.cromwell at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 24 12:20:59 2009 From: tor.cromwell at yahoo.co.uk (Tor Cromwell) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:20:59 +0100 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABBAA7B.10006@yahoo.co.uk> If the code snippet visible on the left of your screen shot is anything to go by you have the height set to 33 in the HTML Garry John DeStefano wrote: > I'm working with a web application's stock style sheets and trying to > customize a few things. I'm having trouble getting a logo image's size > to play nicely with Safari, while the size seems to be working fine in > other browsers. > > In the stylesheet definition for the logo id, I've specified a distinct > height (30px), which is respected by Firefox, but Safari seems confused: > the embedded source shows a height of 33, and the browser's info tools > show a "computed style" height of 30. I've even tried making the height > !important, with the same results. Interestingly, Safari's info tools > display a strike-through on the 33px height, but that's the one that > seems to be trumping my specified height anyway (see attached image, or > this link if the attachment get stripped: > http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/deesto/web/image-screen.png > ). > > Thanks, > ~John > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2392 - Release Date: 09/24/09 05:52:00 > From joel at bizba6.com Thu Sep 24 12:19:09 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:09 -0700 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABB90FB.6020903@stoutstreet.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> <4ABB90FB.6020903@stoutstreet.com> Message-ID: <619d00930909241019x38a3b2d2yb769ba82b9de2147@mail.gmail.com> > > Similar to Joel's method, but I take it a step further and create a > subdomain as well for each client, and this subdomain points to the > client's folder. sweet. if I were smart about technology, I would do that too. oh; wait . . . From fredthejonester at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 13:38:38 2009 From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:38:38 +0300 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> Message-ID: <177c0a10909241138g214761dav4f32810d52b2bab4@mail.gmail.com> > I have a particularly faithful client for years running, pays bill on > time, you know and love the type. ?However, there are pitfalls. ?Every > time she hears about something new, I hear the "Bob, would you look into > this for me?" It might be a half hour, perhaps an hour, who knows? > > Do you consider this kind of research to be billable, the clock is > ticking, or an assumed part of the profession? ?We all should know all > this stuff, right? ?And it increases are value, yes? I think it's billable. I am being paid as a consultant--if the client wants me to code HTML, CSS and PHP and JS or if they want me to chat on the phone or edit their JPGs bit with my rudimentary graphics skills or research some subject, I consider those all "consulting." And I have done all of the above. On the clock. F From sarahwbs at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 14:08:18 2009 From: sarahwbs at gmail.com (Sarah Adams) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:08:18 -0300 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABBC3A2.8070706@gmail.com> John DeStefano wrote: > I'm working with a web application's stock style sheets and trying to > customize a few things. I'm having trouble getting a logo image's size > to play nicely with Safari, while the size seems to be working fine in > other browsers. > > In the stylesheet definition for the logo id, I've specified a distinct > height (30px), which is respected by Firefox, but Safari seems confused: > the embedded source shows a height of 33, and the browser's info tools > show a "computed style" height of 30. I've even tried making the height > !important, with the same results. Interestingly, Safari's info tools > display a strike-through on the 33px height, but that's the one that > seems to be trumping my specified height anyway (see attached image, or > this link if the attachment get stripped: > http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/deesto/web/image-screen.png > ). I'm not really sure what the problem is here. If the computed style height is 30, that's what you want, right? The computed style is the style that is used after the browser calculates which CSS declaration applies. The 33px with the strikethrough shows that that particular declaration (or in this case, html attribute) is being overridden. Sounds to me like everything is as it should be, unless what you're seeing is not what's expected. -- sarah adams web developer & programmer http://sarah.designshift.com From martin at easyweb.co.uk Fri Sep 25 01:58:46 2009 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:58:46 +0100 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <177c0a10909241138g214761dav4f32810d52b2bab4@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com> <619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com> <00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com> <2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6> <619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com> <4ABB936C.9000405@dottedi.biz> <177c0a10909241138g214761dav4f32810d52b2bab4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F9E2DDE-0B5B-49B3-9755-7B59D2425056@easyweb.co.uk> On 24 Sep 2009, at 19:38, Fred Jones wrote: >> I have a particularly faithful client for years running, pays bill on >> time, you know and love the type. However, there are pitfalls. >> Every >> time she hears about something new, I hear the "Bob, would you look >> into >> this for me?" It might be a half hour, perhaps an hour, who knows? >> >> Do you consider this kind of research to be billable, the clock is >> ticking, or an assumed part of the profession? We all should know >> all >> this stuff, right? And it increases are value, yes? > > I think it's billable. I am being paid as a consultant--if the client > wants me to code HTML, CSS and PHP and JS or if they want me to chat > on the phone or edit their JPGs bit with my rudimentary graphics > skills or research some subject, I consider those all "consulting." > And I have done all of the above. On the clock. Oh it should always be on the clock and communicated as such, but as Joel suggested, you may like to take a considered case-by-case view as to whether you actually bill for it. That way, the client *knows* when they're getting unpaid work; even if you don't draw the inference directly, they will feel that they owe you a bit. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From simonmacdonald at uk2.net Fri Sep 25 04:48:40 2009 From: simonmacdonald at uk2.net (Simon MacDonald) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:48:40 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Email Test Message-ID: <003a01ca3dc5$5ca79a60$15f6cf20$@net> Please ignore this email, I've been getting mail delivery failures on my posts, and I'm just checking to see if I've fixed the problem and this gets through ... kind regards Simon Simon MacDonald www.lemonslicedesign.com simonmacdonald at uk2.net __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4456 (20090925) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From kate.007 at btinternet.com Fri Sep 25 05:06:46 2009 From: kate.007 at btinternet.com (kate.007 at btinternet.com) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:06:46 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Email Test References: <003a01ca3dc5$5ca79a60$15f6cf20$@net> Message-ID: I can't ignore,its against my nature. Its got here Simon. Kate http://jungaling.com/selamatdatang/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon MacDonald" To: Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: [thelist] Email Test > Please ignore this email, I've been getting mail delivery failures on my > posts, and I'm just checking to see if I've fixed the problem and this > gets > through ... > > kind regards > > Simon > > Simon MacDonald > > > www.lemonslicedesign.com > simonmacdonald at uk2.net > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature > database 4456 (20090925) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 4456 (20090925) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4456 (20090925) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From willthemoor at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 10:09:14 2009 From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:09:14 -0700 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari In-Reply-To: <4ABBC3A2.8070706@gmail.com> References: <4ABBC3A2.8070706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2506fbd50909250809v6a93ebe9g7436f9d67d7ab790@mail.gmail.com> I'm assuming you can't just change the HTML attribute to 30. Can you try to add a (gasp) !important to your height declaration and see if that overrides the html attribute? if that doesn't work, you might have to resort to JS to change the attribute directly. Will On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Sarah Adams wrote: > John DeStefano wrote: >> I'm working with a web application's stock style sheets and trying to >> customize a few things. ?I'm having trouble getting a logo image's size >> to play nicely with Safari, while the size seems to be working fine in >> other browsers. >> >> In the stylesheet definition for the logo id, I've specified a distinct >> height (30px), which is respected by Firefox, but Safari seems confused: >> the embedded source shows a height of 33, and the browser's info tools >> show a "computed style" height of 30. ?I've even tried making the height >> !important, with the same results. ?Interestingly, Safari's info tools >> display a strike-through on the 33px height, but that's the one that >> seems to be trumping my specified height anyway (see attached image, or >> this link if the attachment get stripped: >> http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/deesto/web/image-screen.png >> ). > > I'm not really sure what the problem is here. If the computed style > height is 30, that's what you want, right? The computed style is the > style that is used after the browser calculates which CSS declaration > applies. The 33px with the strikethrough shows that that particular > declaration (or in this case, html attribute) is being overridden. > Sounds to me like everything is as it should be, unless what you're > seeing is not what's expected. > > -- > sarah adams > web developer & programmer > http://sarah.designshift.com > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From willthemoor at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 10:18:22 2009 From: willthemoor at gmail.com (Will) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:18:22 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Website promotion In-Reply-To: <619d00930909231851j4726d308tcca677fb76a71703@mail.gmail.com> References: <619d00930909231851j4726d308tcca677fb76a71703@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2506fbd50909250818w57ed189y1736af2943f6c36e@mail.gmail.com> It's good work but you spelled 'utilize' wrong. I kid. :) It's a great write up. Why not make it HTML and put it on your site so people 'have something to link to'? Will On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Joel Canfield wrote: >> >> though I'd share it and see if anyone had any feedback (really - any at >> all, from grammar to composition to "you suck"). >> >> http://serf.co.nz/dev/generic/Website-Promotion-and-Marketing.pdf > > > Great basic content for the small biz owner who needs to make something > happen but doesn't have a big budget. This is the first 20% they should do > to get 80% of the results, but most never do. > > Needs formatting; even for just giving away to clients, or even ex-clients, > pretty it up with logical formatting in the document, and 'pretty' > formatting overall. Brand it, and give it away at your website as a 'free > report' > > Nice work, Paul. > > joel > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From joel at bizba6.com Sun Sep 27 11:27:05 2009 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel Canfield) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:27:05 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Amazon signature key: check my PHP? Message-ID: <619d00930909270927s4f9a29f8od732d637632fa903@mail.gmail.com> Any PHP experts see an error in how I'm creating this signature key? Testing on a simple JPEG, it returns the error SignatureDoesNotMatch The request signature we calculated does not match the signature you provided. Check your key and signing method. Since this isn't my code and I'm not PHP smart enough to know anything about base64_encode, hash_hmac, or sha1 and all that, I'm pretty much stuck. {$resource}"; ?> -- Joel at Bizba6.com http://BusinessHeretics.com/ From nan at nanharbison.com Sun Sep 27 11:13:09 2009 From: nan at nanharbison.com (Nan Harbison) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:13:09 -0400 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari In-Reply-To: <2506fbd50909250809v6a93ebe9g7436f9d67d7ab790@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ABBC3A2.8070706@gmail.com> <2506fbd50909250809v6a93ebe9g7436f9d67d7ab790@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53500502DD374C4BB9DCFF1CA91E9BC0@nancyb0bda4ba6> You could do a Safari-only fix at the bottom of the style sheet so it is the last command Safari sees about this: @media screen and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio:0) { #center{ padding-right:15px; } } Between the first line and closing bracket, add some CSS. I left in a div so you can see how it works. I have no idea why Safari is the only browser to see the CSS inside, someone told me about this. Maybe it is bad form? Nan -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Will Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:09 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari I'm assuming you can't just change the HTML attribute to 30. Can you try to add a (gasp) !important to your height declaration and see if that overrides the html attribute? if that doesn't work, you might have to resort to JS to change the attribute directly. Will On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Sarah Adams wrote: > John DeStefano wrote: >> I'm working with a web application's stock style sheets and trying to >> customize a few things. ?I'm having trouble getting a logo image's >> size to play nicely with Safari, while the size seems to be working >> fine in other browsers. >> >> In the stylesheet definition for the logo id, I've specified a >> distinct height (30px), which is respected by Firefox, but Safari seems confused: >> the embedded source shows a height of 33, and the browser's info >> tools show a "computed style" height of 30. ?I've even tried making >> the height !important, with the same results. ?Interestingly, >> Safari's info tools display a strike-through on the 33px height, but >> that's the one that seems to be trumping my specified height anyway >> (see attached image, or this link if the attachment get stripped: >> http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o151/deesto/web/image-screen.png >> ). > > I'm not really sure what the problem is here. If the computed style > height is 30, that's what you want, right? The computed style is the > style that is used after the browser calculates which CSS declaration > applies. The 33px with the strikethrough shows that that particular > declaration (or in this case, html attribute) is being overridden. > Sounds to me like everything is as it should be, unless what you're > seeing is not what's expected. > > -- > sarah adams > web developer & programmer > http://sarah.designshift.com > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and > archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, > evolt ! > -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From david at chelseacreekstudio.com Sun Sep 27 12:30:53 2009 From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:30:53 -0400 Subject: [thelist] controlling image height in Safari In-Reply-To: <53500502DD374C4BB9DCFF1CA91E9BC0@nancyb0bda4ba6> References: <4ABBC3A2.8070706@gmail.com> <2506fbd50909250809v6a93ebe9g7436f9d67d7ab790@mail.gmail.com> <53500502DD374C4BB9DCFF1CA91E9BC0@nancyb0bda4ba6> Message-ID: <4ABFA14D.8080700@chelseacreekstudio.com> Nan Harbison wrote: > You could do a Safari-only fix at the bottom of the style sheet so it is the > last command Safari sees about this: > > @media screen and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio:0) { > #center{ > padding-right:15px; > } > } > > Between the first line and closing bracket, add some CSS. I left in a div so > you can see how it works. I have no idea why Safari is the only browser to > see the CSS inside, someone told me about this. Maybe it is bad form? > > Nan > > You open yourself to a world of grief attempting that bit of ridiculous foolishness. From h.shapiro at thebossgroup.com Sun Sep 27 12:50:00 2009 From: h.shapiro at thebossgroup.com (Hal Shapiro) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:50:00 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you Message-ID: Please take me off of these emails, thank you -- Hal A Shapiro Division Lead Direct Hire Services The BOSS Group ? where talent and opportunity meet P: 610.668.3456 C: 215.416.5003 F: 610.668.3455 E: h.shapiro at thebossgroup.com W: http://www.thebossgroup.com/ BLOG: http://phillyinteractivejobs.wordpress.com/ Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/halslinkedin Twitter: http://twitter.com/halshapiro From jason.handby at corestar.co.uk Sun Sep 27 13:05:45 2009 From: jason.handby at corestar.co.uk (Jason Handby) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:05:45 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF0273876F@exch-be12.exchange.local> > Please take me off of these emails, thank you "For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org " From vaspers at inbox.com Sun Sep 27 13:17:30 2009 From: vaspers at inbox.com (steven streight) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 10:17:30 -0800 Subject: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you In-Reply-To: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF0273876F@exch-be12.exchange.local> References: Message-ID: Jason Handby that was a lame and unnecessary troll like way to Unsubscribe. Tsk tsk dude. Steven E. Streight http://www.pluperfecter.blogspot.com > -----Original Message----- > From: jason.handby at corestar.co.uk > Sent: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:05:45 +0100 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you > >> Please take me off of these emails, thank you > > "For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and > archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org " > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! From rachell at 4thegrapes.com Sun Sep 27 13:19:26 2009 From: rachell at 4thegrapes.com (Rachell Coe) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:19:26 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Pulldown Menu Not Lining Up Message-ID: <3e30230d0909271119n7f01e82fif4045adfeed7bab8@mail.gmail.com> Hi All! I have coded a css pulldown menu using li tags and even though I've successfully coded pulldown menus before (and the pulldown part for this is working), for some reason can't get this one to line up correctly!!! It's driving me NUTS! You can see what I've done at http://theportlandballet.4thegrapes.com/Classes/index.htm. How its supposed to work is the nav link is supposed to be centered under each squared picture, and the pulldown box is supposed to align to the right and left of the squared picture above it. Each
  • is supposed to be 150px with a 10px right margin so it will line up with the above, corresponding square picture, but after the first one, all the rest are too far to the left. Anyone have any ideas what the problem is? The css is at http://theportlandballet.4thegrapes.com/main.css and here is the specific css coding (in case you don't want to follow the link): #navigation { margin: 0px; padding: 0px; } #navigation ul { padding-bottom: 5px; margin: 0px; width: 970px; } #navigation li { text-align: center; list-style-type: none; float: left; } #navigation li a:link { color: #FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; width: 150px; display: block; margin-right: 10px; margin-bottom: 5px; } #navigation li a:visited { color: #FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; width: 150px; display: block; margin-right: 10px; margin-bottom: 5px; } #navigation li a:hover { color: #FFCC33; text-decoration: none; width: 150px; display: block; margin-right: 10px; margin-bottom: 5px; } #navigation li ul { display: none; height: auto; width: auto; color: #000000; } #navigation li ul li { float: none; width: 150px; display: block; line-height: 1em; color: #FFFFFF; padding: 5px; background-color: #000000; text-align: left; } #navigation li ul li a { padding: 3px; height: auto; color: #FFFFFF; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; font-size: 9pt; } #navigation li:hover ul { display: block; position: absolute; background-image: none; } #navigation li ul li a:visited { color: #FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; font-size: 9pt; } #navigation li ul li a:hover { text-decoration: none; font-size: 9pt; } And here is the html coding for the navigation area: TIA!!! Rachell Coe 4 the Grapes http://www.4theGrapes.com Web Design, Marketing & Photography for Small, Boutique and Micro Wineries From vaspers at inbox.com Sun Sep 27 13:21:23 2009 From: vaspers at inbox.com (steven streight) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 10:21:23 -0800 Subject: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why don't you look at the link for Unsubscribing instead of spamming the List with your troll flames? Steven E. Streight http://www.pluperfecter.blogspot.com > -----Original Message----- > From: h.shapiro at thebossgroup.com > Sent: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:50:00 -0400 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Please take me off of these emails, thank you > > Please take me off of these emails, thank you > -- > Hal A Shapiro > Division Lead > Direct Hire Services > The BOSS Group ? where talent and opportunity meet > P: 610.668.3456 > C: 215.416.5003 > F: 610.668.3455 > E: h.shapiro at thebossgroup.com > W: http://www.thebossgroup.com/ > BLOG: http://phillyinteractivejobs.wordpress.com/ > Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/halslinkedin > Twitter: http://twitter.com/halshapiro > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From david at chelseacreekstudio.com Sun Sep 27 16:14:48 2009 From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:14:48 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Pulldown Menu Not Lining Up In-Reply-To: <3e30230d0909271119n7f01e82fif4045adfeed7bab8@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e30230d0909271119n7f01e82fif4045adfeed7bab8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABFD5C8.5020403@chelseacreekstudio.com> Rachell Coe wrote: > > http://theportlandballet.4thegrapes.com/Classes/index.htm. How its > supposed to work is the nav link is supposed to be centered under each > squared picture, and the pulldown box is supposed to align to the > right and left of the squared picture above it. Each
  • is supposed > to be 150px with a 10px right margin so it will line up with the > above, corresponding square picture, but after the first one, all the > rest are too far to the left. Anyone have any ideas what the problem > is? > > Rachell, I think in the long-run you'll have much better luck using a different menu than trying to fix what you have. This one [1] works well cross-browser and is relatively simple to position within most any layout. Build it on a separate clean sheet, then position it in your layout once its working satisfactorily. [1] PS Whatever does it for you and the client, but it seems a little peculiar to see a table based layout nowadays... From nan at nanharbison.com Sun Sep 27 11:07:32 2009 From: nan at nanharbison.com (Nan Harbison) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:07:32 -0400 Subject: [thelist] pricing for web sites? In-Reply-To: <619d00930909241019x38a3b2d2yb769ba82b9de2147@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d801ca3c74$509782a0$f1c687e0$@com><619d00930909231503x347eef4bkc8fa53561626070d@mail.gmail.com><00d001ca3caa$cdef9d60$69ced820$@com><2AE056E1C6624A9C88C14D2765B20DF8@nancyb0bda4ba6><619d00930909240825v22226b72h2be8ae0b08c4e5b9@mail.gmail.com><4ABB90FB.6020903@stoutstreet.com> <619d00930909241019x38a3b2d2yb769ba82b9de2147@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry to be out of the loop for a few days, thanks everyone, for all the great advice. Patrick - I am not sure I understand this, pointing a subdomain to the clients folder? Do you mean you have the files in your subdomain and when you are finished, have it redirect to the clients website? ???? Thanks Nan -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Joel Canfield Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:19 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] pricing for web sites? > > Similar to Joel's method, but I take it a step further and create a > subdomain as well for each client, and this subdomain points to the > client's folder. sweet. if I were smart about technology, I would do that too. oh; wait . . . -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !