From evolt at taracleveland.com Wed Feb 4 17:39:04 2004 From: evolt at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:39:04 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area Message-ID: Hi all, We've had a request from the content group on the steering list to change the content admin area so that: 1. content members can archive messages that are not supposed to be answered 2. content members can manage files related to articles (eg uploading images). I've been asked to get the desdev opinion on this request. So... Can we do this? If not, then why not? If we can do it, what will it take?, how long will it take? and how will we go about doing it? Jeff, I've been told that you are the only person that would be able to do this. Is this true? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is there any way you can share the load with someone else? Tara -- --- Tara Cleveland Web Design and Consulting http://www.taracleveland.com From jeff at jeffhowden.com Wed Feb 4 19:27:42 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:27:42 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: tara, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tara Cleveland > > 1. content members can archive messages that are not > supposed to be answered ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< "not supposed to be answered" is an odd bit of wording to describe these sorts of emails, but i digress. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 2. content members can manage files related to articles > (eg uploading images). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< this has been discussed in the past and there's a solution partially developed that would given even authors the ability to manage images and files for their articles. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I've been asked to get the desdev opinion on this > request. So... Can we do this? If not, then why not? > If we can do it, what will it take?, how long will it > take? and how will we go about doing it? > > Jeff, I've been told that you are the only person that > would be able to do this. Is this true? Please correct > me if I'm wrong. Is there any way you can share the > load with someone else? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< there are other members that can do this as well, but i suspect they may be as busy as i am. both requests are doable, they'll simply require some development time. how much, i'm not sure. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From evolt at taracleveland.com Wed Feb 4 21:40:37 2004 From: evolt at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:40:37 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff, >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> 1. content members can archive messages that are not >> supposed to be answered >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >"not supposed to be answered" is an odd bit of wording to describe these >sorts of emails, but i digress. Well, to be honest, I've never personally been in the content admin area, so I'm just passing on the request. Sorry if it wasn't clear. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> 2. content members can manage files related to articles >> (eg uploading images). >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >this has been discussed in the past and there's a solution partially >developed that would given even authors the ability to manage images and >files for their articles. How difficult will it be to actually implement this? Can it be implemented? How do we take it from "partially developed" to "here it's fixed up just the way you asked"? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>> >> Jeff, I've been told that you are the only person that >> would be able to do this. Is this true? Please correct >> me if I'm wrong. Is there any way you can share the >> load with someone else? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >there are other members that can do this as well, but i suspect they may be >as busy as i am. Can we *ask* them if they are too busy? Are you saying that you are too busy too? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not really sure what you're saying here. >both requests are doable, they'll simply require some development time. how >much, i'm not sure. So where do we go from here? Can you figure out how much time it will take? Can you work out a plan for implementing these requests? What answer should I take back to steering? Will it be you who implements the changes or can we ask someone else to pitch in? Thanks for your help Jeff. I know this might be asking for extra work and time from you. So let me know if there's anything I can do to make it easier for you. Tara -- --- Tara Cleveland Web Design and Consulting http://www.taracleveland.com From martin at easyweb.co.uk Thu Feb 5 09:49:19 2004 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:49:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ccing this to desdev as 1) it concerns them 2) content archives are closed. On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff Howden wrote: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Martin > > > > Jeff, you're not a steering rep any more. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > actually, don't remember there being any votes, only people offering to take > the positions. If desdev didn't want to have a formal vote, then that's desdev's business. If you have a problem with the desdev process, then take it up with desdev. However, your memory is faulty: http://lists.evolt.org/desdevarchive/2003-November/000445.html as an example. > i also don't remember posting to the effect that i was offering to "step > down". Your term of office came to an end. Actually, your term of office actually came to an end 12 months after it started, ie last summer. My invitation to steering members to step down en masse was merely a courtesy. You had a chance to dispute this while it was still in steering discussion - 3 chances actually: http://lists.evolt.org/steeringarchive/2003-September/000432.html http://lists.evolt.org/steeringarchive/2003-October/000438.html http://lists.evolt.org/steeringarchive/2003-November/000440.html and failed to do so. If you abstain from the discussion (and this is when you legitimately had steering subs so could follow minute by minute), you cannot complain about the result afterwards. Each group then chose its reps. Of the groups you are on, none of them nominated you, nor did you nominate yourself. Desdev had 2 members self-nominate, both of whom recieved undisputed support from desdev. That was your 4th chance. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > Obviously not. It was a side-point that I was > > > reminded of. The point being that, in most cases, > > > exceptions to the current standards shouldn't have to > > > be made for the benefit of one person or one group. > > > > Also, exceptions are in the grant of evolt (iow, you > > convince evolt that you need an exception), not the > > presumption of the individual. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > hmmm, new rules as we go along. No, the rules are. You're trying to remain on steering without just cause. If you want to try to change things, fine, go ahead and try. But the burden of effort is with you. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > However, to repeat what I said a moment ago in another > > post, it's a bit pointless for us to discuss it on > > content. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > where else would you suggest it be discussed then? 1) desdev as its their reps you're challenging 2) steering as they a) will confirm desdev's legitimate reps b) will confirm (or not) that they are not an open subscription group c) will decide whether you be allowed to remain subbed on the basis of not having speaking rights Cheers Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 10:40:48 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 02:40:48 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > No, the rules are. You're trying to remain on steering > without just cause. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you continue to hang onto your angle, despite my explanations the contrary. i'm not trying to hang on as a steering rep. i merely find it easier to follow along when the posts hit my inbox rather than having to go check the archives all the time. that's it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you want to try to change things, fine, go ahead and > try. But the burden of effort is with you. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, the burden is on you to change my mind. so far you've made no headway. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > where else would you suggest it be discussed then? > > 1) desdev as its their reps you're challenging ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< on the contrary. i'm not challenging the reps at all. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 2) steering as they > a) will confirm desdev's legitimate reps > b) will confirm (or not) that they are not an open > subscription group > c) will decide whether you be allowed to remain subbed > on the basis of not having speaking rights ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< pull the london fog outta your head and get one thing clear if you hear nothing else i've said. i'm not trying to stay on as a rep. i'm not even trying to stay on the list so i can have a voice. i merely wish to have my choice of how i wish to follow along, by email, rather than by archives. get me an rss feed of the archives and i'll probably change my mind. ;p .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 10:50:46 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 02:50:46 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: tara, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tara Cleveland [mailto:evolt@taracleveland.com] > > > > 1. content members can archive messages that are > > > not supposed to be answered ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< done. it actually took longer to assess the time necessary than it did to actually make the change. how's that for ironic. while i was in there, i also noticed that only godmin could reset who had taken a message. since i anticipate bitching about that as well, i opted to make that admin (content) access as well. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 10:51:43 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 02:51:43 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: tara, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tara Cleveland [mailto:evolt@taracleveland.com] > > > "not supposed to be answered" is an odd bit of wording > > to describe these sorts of emails, but i digress. > > Well, to be honest, I've never personally been in the > content admin area, so I'm just passing on the request. > Sorry if it wasn't clear. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no problem. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > this has been discussed in the past and there's a > > solution partially developed that would given even > > authors the ability to manage images and files for > > their articles. > > How difficult will it be to actually implement this? > Can it be implemented? How do we take it from > "partially developed" to "here it's fixed up just the > way you asked"? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, "just the way you asked" is an impossible task simply because no one has ever come to me with a spec describing how "they" wanted it built. instead, i saw a need and thought i had time to implement it (more than a year ago, i'd guess, maybe two), but was unable to finish it. since we have so few articles come through with images and/or associated files, it's been alot easier for me to just keep an eye out for articles that need to have stuff moved and do it myself rather than put more time into an app that a) wasn't requested, b) is likely going to result in *someone* being unhappy with the way it was built, and c) results in me having to do still more development to make "everyone" happy. bitter? perhaps. definitely feeling a distinct lack of gratitude from certain individuals. anyway, moving along. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > there are other members that can do this as well, but > > i suspect they may be as busy as i am. > > Can we *ask* them if they are too busy? Are you saying > that you are too busy too? Sorry if I'm being dense, > but I'm not really sure what you're saying here. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm extremely busy. i have been for many, many months. between freelancing way too many hours to make ends meet, 3 kids, a wife, and all the other nonsense in life, i have very little time to give away. the other people with access and ability are morgan (who's always busy i 'm sure) and judah. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > both requests are doable, they'll simply require some > > development time. how much, i'm not sure. > > So where do we go from here? Can you figure out how > much time it will take? Can you work out a plan for > implementing these requests? What answer should I > take back to steering? Will it be you who implements > the changes or can we ask someone else to pitch in? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'd guess that the request of making the "archive only" option available to more than just godmin will not take very long. i'll poke around in the code and see if i can see what all needs to be done and maybe even just do it, time permitting. it's been so long since i've looked at the images/files manager that i was building that i really don't remember where i'm at with that. honestly, it'd probably be best to either work from some sort of spec or have some assurance that no one will bitch if i just finish it up the way it is. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Thanks for your help Jeff. I know this might be asking > for extra work and time from you. So let me know if > there's anything I can do to make it easier for you. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no biggie. i do what i can. right now hosting weo is about all i can do. but, if i have some sort of concrete direction on things that i can put very focused time on, i can make time for more. i'm just not going to waste my time trying to get anything across to pig-headed members that have their own agenda and choose to disagree with me for the sake of disagreement. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Thu Feb 5 11:01:17 2004 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:01:17 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4022227D.2000003@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > [snip] > > i'm extremely busy. i have been for many, many months. between freelancing > way too many hours to make ends meet, 3 kids, a wife, and all the other > nonsense in life, i have very little time to give away. hence our constant requests to open up the toolset to reduce our demands on your time. Thank you for finally doing so. -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Feb 5 11:02:11 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:02:11 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040205110211.GN1549@leon> On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 02:50:46AM -0800, Jeff Howden wrote: > done. it actually took longer to assess the time necessary than it did to > actually make the change. how's that for ironic. Fantastic, thanks Jeff. Are you ready for this to be announced to content or do you need to do any more testing? G. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org From neuro at well.com Thu Feb 5 11:02:11 2004 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:02:11 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402222B3.3000509@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > [snip] > > done. it actually took longer to assess the time necessary than it did to > actually make the change. how's that for ironic. Thanks. I don't see any irony however. If the change was so quick to make, why wasn't it done when the initial request was made? > while i was in there, i also noticed that only godmin could reset who had > taken a message. since i anticipate bitching about that as well, i opted to > make that admin (content) access as well. Request for access != bitching. -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Feb 5 11:13:25 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:13:25 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] No-Reply to sender feature error Message-ID: <20040205111325.GO1549@leon> Jeff, Just been having a look at the new feature and produced a db error when I hit reset (as I only wanted to look, not actually claim the message until it's announced). -- Error Occurred While Processing Request Error Executing Database Query. [Macromedia][SQLServer JDBC Driver][SQLServer]Subquery returned more than 1 value. This is not permitted when the subquery follows =, !=, <, <= , >, >= or when the subquery is used as an expression. -- Then lots of output which I don't want to post here. I've saved a copy locally. Email me if you need the full thing. G. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org From martin at easyweb.co.uk Thu Feb 5 10:53:58 2004 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:53:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff Howden wrote: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Martin > > > > No, the rules are. You're trying to remain on steering > > without just cause. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > you continue to hang onto your angle, despite my explanations the contrary. > i'm not trying to hang on as a steering rep. It's not what your "I never stepped down as a rep" claim said. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > If you want to try to change things, fine, go ahead and > > try. But the burden of effort is with you. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > well, the burden is on you to change my mind. so far you've made no > headway. You can have whatever you like in your mind. However, to achieve anything within evolt, you will need to change evolt's mind. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > where else would you suggest it be discussed then? > > > > 1) desdev as its their reps you're challenging > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > on the contrary. i'm not challenging the reps at all. I'll let Garrett and Tara speak for themselves on that. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > 2) steering as they > > a) will confirm desdev's legitimate reps > > b) will confirm (or not) that they are not an open > > subscription group > > c) will decide whether you be allowed to remain subbed > > on the basis of not having speaking rights > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > pull the london fog outta your head and get one thing clear if you hear > nothing else i've said. i'm not trying to stay on as a rep. i'm not even > trying to stay on the list so i can have a voice. Noted. > i merely wish to have my choice of how i wish to follow along, by email, > rather than by archives. get me an rss feed of the archives and i'll > probably change my mind. As above, if steering wish to grant you that right, they can do so, and it's their decision. But not yours. Cheers Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 11:30:43 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 03:30:43 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: <20040205110211.GN1549@leon> Message-ID: garrett, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Garrett Coakley > > Are you ready for this to be announced to content or do > you need to do any more testing? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< someone with admin priv is welcome to take a peek and see if the things they expect to see are there and work properly. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 11:34:29 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 03:34:29 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] No-Reply to sender feature error In-Reply-To: <20040205111325.GO1549@leon> Message-ID: garrett, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Garrett Coakley > > Just been having a look at the new feature and produced > a db error when I hit reset (as I only wanted to look, > not actually claim the message until it's announced). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< fixed. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 11:37:51 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 03:37:51 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: <402222B3.3000509@well.com> Message-ID: william, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: William Anderson > > > done. it actually took longer to assess the time > > necessary than it did to actually make the change. > > how's that for ironic. > > Thanks. I don't see any irony however. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you don't see how ironic it is that it took longer to assess how long it would take for actual development than the actual development itself? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If the change was so quick to make, why wasn't it done > when the initial request was made? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< many reasons, some of which involved how much time i had available (no work tonight) at the time, how it was requested, and other factors. you all got lucky because i learned of the request earlier today and didn't end up with any work that needed to be addressed tonight. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Request for access != bitching. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure, but the delivery of that request can equal bitching. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Thu Feb 5 11:45:20 2004 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:45:20 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40222CD0.9080005@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > william, > > [snip] > > you don't see how ironic it is that it took longer to assess how long it > would take for actual development than the actual development itself? Not really. First off, I've often seen and participated in wholly merited discussions on whether to do or not do work, where the discussion has taken longer than the job itself. However, I'm not entirely convinced the discussion in this instance wasn't protracted by yourself and your arguments against us having the access we requested an age ago. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>If the change was so quick to make, why wasn't it done >>when the initial request was made? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > many reasons, some of which involved how much time i had available (no work > tonight) at the time, how it was requested, and other factors. you all got > lucky because i learned of the request earlier today and didn't end up with > any work that needed to be addressed tonight. I can understand things of a higher priority excluding evolt stuff getting done - that's not my beef, and I'd never berate anyone for saying "ah, I couldn't get this done today, real life intervened", but to say you only learned of the request is hogwash - you knew we'd been asking for this since last year. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>Request for access != bitching. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > sure, but the delivery of that request can equal bitching. Only if that's the way you choose to take it. Again I pass on my thanks for doing the job, but the length of time it took for an agreement for it to be done was ludicrously excessive. If you don't have enough time to dedicate to evolt, then *please* realise there are plenty of people here willing to help share the load. -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 11:53:03 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 03:53:03 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > > you continue to hang onto your angle, despite my > > explanations the contrary. i'm not trying to hang > > on as a steering rep. > > It's not what your "I never stepped down as a rep" claim > said. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< to you. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > well, the burden is on you to change my mind. so far > > you've made no headway. > > You can have whatever you like in your mind. However, > to achieve anything within evolt, you will need to > change evolt's mind. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< evolt (sic) doesn't have a mind. it's made up of a bunch of free-thinking individuals, some more vocal than others who all have a say provided they can yell louder and longer than others with a different agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i merely wish to have my choice of how i wish to > > follow along, by email, rather than by archives. get > > me an rss feed of the archives and i'll probably > > change my mind. > > As above, if steering wish to grant you that right, they > can do so, and it's their decision. But not yours. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< nor yours. done now? .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 11:57:45 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 03:57:45 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: <40222CD0.9080005@well.com> Message-ID: william, i smell agenda when i read this. just so you know. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: William Anderson > > [...] However, I'm not entirely convinced the discussion > in this instance wasn't protracted by yourself and your > arguments against us having the access we requested an > age ago. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< think what you want. i'm not out to change minds. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] but to say you only learned of the request is > hogwash - you knew we'd been asking for this since last > year. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no shit. i learned of a renewed request pushed through the proper channels and finally brought to this list to be discussed/implemented/whatever. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > sure, but the delivery of that request can equal bitching. > > Only if that's the way you choose to take it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< same goes for so many things you've taken the wrong way from me, in this thread even. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Again I pass on my thanks for doing the job, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< if you'd stopped right there it would have seemed genuine. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Feb 5 12:01:30 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:01:30 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: <20040205110211.GN1549@leon> Message-ID: <20040205120130.GP1549@leon> On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 03:30:43AM -0800, Jeff Howden wrote: Cheers for fixing the error > someone with admin priv is welcome to take a peek and see if the things they > expect to see are there and work properly. All looks pretty simple. I'll have a play with some of the contacts in the queue and then alert content. G. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org From neuro at well.com Thu Feb 5 12:19:12 2004 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:19:12 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402234C0.6030902@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > william, > > i smell agenda when i read this. just so you know. This constant backbiting does us no good at all. I have no agenda other than to try and further evolt.org to the benefit of all of us. If you want to see an agenda, feel free, because I'm losing the will to care anymore. > [snip] > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>[...] Again I pass on my thanks for doing the job, [...] >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > if you'd stopped right there it would have seemed genuine. Oh for $deity's sake, Jeff, take a fricking compliment when you see one. If you can qualify statements - the whole "since I anticipate bitching" stuff - then so can I. -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From morgan at morgankelsey.com Thu Feb 5 13:32:03 2004 From: morgan at morgankelsey.com (Morgan Kelsey) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area References: <402222B3.3000509@well.com> Message-ID: <000701c3ebee$3ffdb040$6e01a8c0@boppadeedee2> neuro, > > done. it actually took longer to assess the time necessary than it did to > > actually make the change. how's that for ironic. > > Thanks. I don't see any irony however. If the change was so quick to > make, why wasn't it done when the initial request was made? > hey, c'mon now. anyone who has ever "fixed" a programming problem knows that when you first sit down....well....uh.... you don't know what the problem is, right? so, you don't know how long it will take to fix. and occasionally, it's something really stupid and you can fix it immediately. even more ironic, is that clients usually find this amusing. a.) because it didn't cost them much (if anything) b.) they don't really like reading proposals they don't normally berate the developer, but i guess it happens. hth, nagrom From morgan at morgankelsey.com Thu Feb 5 13:23:35 2004 From: morgan at morgankelsey.com (Morgan Kelsey) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:23:35 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area References: Message-ID: <000601c3ebee$3fd2cfb0$6e01a8c0@boppadeedee2> > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Can we *ask* them if they are too busy? > > [snip] > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i'm extremely busy. i have been for many, many months. between freelancing > way too many hours to make ends meet, 3 kids, a wife, and all the other > nonsense in life, i have very little time to give away. > > the other people with access and ability are morgan (who's always busy i 'm > sure) and judah. > jeff howden -- ever the braggart. JEFF has 3 kids. JEFF has 2 wives. JEFF has bills. JEFF has no money. boohoo, poor jeff. when you gonna teach those little freeloaders to bang out some bytes from those little dimply fingers? my 2 year old is still having trouble with fractals, but the 5 year old just finished her first java-based CMS. whoops! wrong list! yes, i'm too busy to help out right now, but am still available for emergencies. in a year or so that may change so i continue to lurk over here.... nagrom From martin at easyweb.co.uk Thu Feb 5 14:31:25 2004 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:31:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff Howden wrote: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > well, the burden is on you to change my mind. so far > > > you've made no headway. > > > > You can have whatever you like in your mind. However, > > to achieve anything within evolt, you will need to > > change evolt's mind. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > evolt (sic) doesn't have a mind. it's made up of a bunch of free-thinking > individuals, some more vocal than others who all have a say provided they > can yell louder and longer than others with a different agenda. So please stop yelling. Point of information - evolt does have a mind in the same way all organisations do. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > i merely wish to have my choice of how i wish to > > > follow along, by email, rather than by archives. get > > > me an rss feed of the archives and i'll probably > > > change my mind. > > > > As above, if steering wish to grant you that right, they > > can do so, and it's their decision. But not yours. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > nor yours. Indeed - steering can decide to change the *current* policy of it being a steering members only list. Which is why there isn't an open signup to steering. Cheers Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From evolt at taracleveland.com Thu Feb 5 17:31:10 2004 From: evolt at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:31:10 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] RE: [Content] steering list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Ok. I'm going to try to synthesize this discussion so that we can make a decision of some kind and move on. This is the upshot of what I've heard Jeff and Martin saying. Please correct me if I have anything wrong. -- Jeff would like to remain on the steering list. Because of this, Martin is concerned that Jeff hasn't relinquished his role as desdev rep. Jeff replies that he is not trying to challenge Garrett or I for desdev rep, he merely wants to remain on the steering list so that he doesn't have to check the archive. -- Is this right? Because if it is, it's probably something the steering list should discuss not desdev. My suggestion to Jeff would be to bring this up on the steering list just to make sure everyone is comfortable with it and knows why he wants to remain on the steering list and to avoid the kind of... umm... heated discussion we've had on desdev today. Thanks, Tara -- --- Tara Cleveland Web Design and Consulting http://www.taracleveland.com From evolt at taracleveland.com Thu Feb 5 18:12:18 2004 From: evolt at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:12:18 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff and everyone else too, >well, "just the way you asked" is an impossible task simply because no one >has ever come to me with a spec describing how "they" wanted it built. Well yes, I was being a bit facetious with the "fixed up just the way you asked" bit. >instead, i saw a need and thought i had time to implement it (more than a >year ago, i'd guess, maybe two), but was unable to finish it. since we have >so few articles come through with images and/or associated files, it's been >alot easier for me to just keep an eye out for articles that need to have >stuff moved and do it myself rather than put more time into an app that a) >wasn't requested, b) is likely going to result in *someone* being unhappy >with the way it was built, and c) results in me having to do still more >development to make "everyone" happy. I understand that everyone is frustrated with the process. Let's try and find a way to change things so that there's clear communication between desdev and groups requesting changes. I think more formalized specs is a good idea - not just for this, but for any future changes. Can I draw up a spec sheet that content and/or others can fill out to request changes? Even if it's as simple a list of questions that they answer and then copy and paste into an email and send to desdev? Would that help you - and everyone else - to be able to budget time and figure out what exactly has been requested? I'm thinking something more formalized might help *everyone* - other evolt.org groups to figure out exactly what it is they're asking for and desdev - for both back-end and the front-end changes? What does everyone think? Or is there already some process that I'm not aware of? >the other people with access and ability are morgan (who's always busy i 'm >sure) and judah. Okay. Thanks. I'll talk to Judah then and see how much time he can offer since Morgan seems pretty busy. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Tara Cleveland [mailto:evolt@taracleveland.com] >> >> > > 1. content members can archive messages that are >> > > not supposed to be answered >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >done. it actually took longer to assess the time necessary than it did to >actually make the change. how's that for ironic. > >while i was in there, i also noticed that only godmin could reset who had >taken a message. since i anticipate bitching about that as well, i opted to >make that admin (content) access as well. Great. Thanks a lot Jeff. Okay (sorry, I need to get this straight so I can understand what you've done without actually ever having seen what it is you're talking about), you've changed it so that a content admin can change the contact queue by setting a contact to "not needing a response" and also they can change who's been recorded as taking the message? Have I described it correctly? Garrett, you've got admin privileges and you've poked around testing it. Do both of you think we can go to Content and say that it's ready and done? Tara -- --- Tara Cleveland Web Design and Consulting http://www.taracleveland.com From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Feb 5 18:30:39 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:30:39 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040205183038.GC3540@leon> On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 01:12:18PM -0500, Tara Cleveland wrote: > I think more formalized specs is a good idea - not just for this, but > for any future changes. Can I draw up a spec sheet that content > and/or others can fill out to request changes? That sounds like a very good idea, and something that has been missing in the group communication structure. Audit trails are a good thing. > Garrett, you've got admin privileges and you've poked around testing > it. Do both of you think we can go to Content and say that it's ready > and done? Work hass kinda got in the way today so I haven't done that much testing apart from confirming one bug which Jeff fixed. But it seems good. I can run some more testing tomorrow morning (GMT) if everyone wants to be doubly sure. Don't see the need myself though. G. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Feb 5 18:50:43 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:50:43 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Changing content admin area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: tara, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Tara Cleveland [mailto:evolt@taracleveland.com] > > I understand that everyone is frustrated with the > process. Let's try and find a way to change things so > that there's clear communication between desdev and > groups requesting changes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< finally someone with a level head who's interested in actually getting things done and not just backbiting those who do. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I think more formalized specs is a good idea - not just > for this, but for any future changes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< specs are *always* a good thing. they're good for the developer. they're good for the client. they're good for accountability. they're good for assessing the success of a project. i digress though, cause i'm sure you already know all of that. as professionals, i can't believe we've never, ever worked from a spec for anything here. in my professional career i almost always work from a spec. the times i decide to forego one, it comes back to haunt me. i'm looking forward to improving that process here. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Can I draw up a spec sheet that content and/or others > can fill out to request changes? Even if it's as simple > a list of questions that they answer and then copy and > paste into an email and send to desdev? Would that help > you - and everyone else - to be able to budget time and > figure out what exactly has been requested? [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< absolutely. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I'm thinking something more formalized might help > *everyone* - other evolt.org groups to figure out > exactly what it is they're asking for and desdev - > for both back-end and the front-end changes? What does > everyone think? Or is there already some process that > I'm not aware of? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< there is no process. take the ball and run with it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Okay (sorry, I need to get this straight so I can > understand what you've done without actually ever having > seen what it is you're talking about), you've changed it > so that a content admin can change the contact queue by > setting a contact to "not needing a response" and also > they can change who's been recorded as taking the > message? Have I described it correctly? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< correct. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From david at gigawatt.com Mon Feb 9 14:46:25 2004 From: david at gigawatt.com (David Kaufman) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:46:25 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Re: [Finance] Steering reps References: <200311261155.hAQBtha27158@rs1.lexonia.net> <002701c3b5f4$34220bc0$1200a8c0@david> Message-ID: <007701c3ef1b$7e7b9690$5456a8c0@CPXPDEV02> i see these requests have been done on the donation page... i haven't received anything for evolt (other than statements from the bank) yet, but thanks! ... to whichever one of you DesDevians (or Marketeers) did the deed! -dave David Kaufman wrote: > > Marlene Bruce wrote: >> [...] Dave, I'd like to change from mine to your address on the >> web site so checks go directly to you. > > that'd be great, Marlene. i'll even add an "Evolt.org" (sticker from > cafepress!) to my mailbox so they can simply address donations to: > > evolt.org > 87 East 21st Street > Bayonne, New Jersey 07002 > > while you're at it, could you (or somebody at DesDev/Marketing) put > the link to the Evolt Gear cafepress store *back* on the donations > page? it seems to have been removed at some point ... The link is: > http://www.cafeshops.com/evoltgear From evolt at taracleveland.com Mon Feb 9 15:57:18 2004 From: evolt at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:57:18 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] steering list decision Message-ID: Hi everyone, Just a quick note... After several discussions here on desdev and on the steering list, the people on steering have decided it's better to restrict subscription to the steering list to steering committee members only. If you want to see why we decided this, you can read the thread on the steering archives at http://lists.evolt.org/steeringarchive/ . If you are interested in what the steering committee is up to, the steering list archives are available for you to read at any time. Thanks, Tara -- --- Tara Cleveland Web Design and Consulting http://www.taracleveland.com From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Feb 17 10:06:09 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:06:09 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Fwd: Donation bar Message-ID: <20040217100608.GB954@leon> Hey peeps. A request has come through steering for the removal of the donation bar from weo. Jeff, are you able to action this? Or if you're snowed under who else can we give it to? As a heads up it looks like there will be a request at some point to re-use the space to push our cafepress stuff, so probably worth some sort of commenting out instead of full scale deletia. http://lists.evolt.org/marketingarchive/2004-February/000464.html G. ----- Forwarded message from Elfur Logadσttir ----- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:24:28 -0000 From: Elfur Logadσttir Subject: [steering] Donation bar To: Hi, As has been approved both on finance and marketing, the donation bar needs to be removed as is, since it's honestly not reflecting, neither the cash we have nor the cash we need. Tara or Garrett, can you please take the decision to desdev and see that it is done. Thanks elfur ----- End forwarded message ----- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org From jeff at jeffhowden.com Tue Feb 17 10:43:36 2004 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:43:36 -0800 Subject: [DesDev] Fwd: Donation bar In-Reply-To: <20040217100608.GB954@leon> Message-ID: garrett, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Garrett Coakley > > A request has come through steering for the removal of > the donation bar from weo. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< done. .jeff —————————————————————————————————————————————————————— Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Rιsumι - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Tue Feb 17 10:47:51 2004 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:47:51 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Fwd: Donation bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4031F157.1010606@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > garrett, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>From: Garrett Coakley >> >>A request has come through steering for the removal of >>the donation bar from weo. [...] >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > done. Nice one, Jeff - cheers. -- _ __/| William Anderson | Brodie: The Force is strong with this one \`O_o' neuro at well dot com | Jay: Dude, don't encourage him =(_ _)= http://neuro.me.uk/ | -- Mallrats, (1995) U - Thhbt! GPG 0xFA5F1100 | From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Feb 17 10:54:36 2004 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:54:36 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Fwd: Donation bar In-Reply-To: References: <20040217100608.GB954@leon> Message-ID: <20040217105436.GD954@leon> On Tue, Feb 17, 2004 at 02:43:36AM -0800, Jeff Howden wrote: > done. Blimey, faster than a speeding bullet! *:) Cheers jeff. G. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Work : http://www.gencon.co.uk & http://spiked.co.uk Play : http://polytechnic.co.uk Learn : http://evolt.org