From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sun Aug 3 17:01:30 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:01:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [DesDev] Donation Wall Message-ID: Jeff wrote to desdev (sorry, didn't see it until now as I'm not on desdev.) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin Paul Burns > > As it is, we've waited for over a month and still no > donation wall, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > waited? was someone supposed to be doing something in that time? Yep, commenting. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > or suggestions for improvements beyond your "It's all > rubbish". ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i didn't say "it's all rubbish". i simply offered my opinion on > implementation. Which were essentially "I wouldn't do it like that" without much suggestion for how else it would be done rapidly. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unless anyone's got any further comments, I suggest that > we start using it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > can we at least get a consensus on the matter? Yep. Finance people? Does it meet your reporting needs? (elfur/marlene I can let you have a treasurer role login without any probs) Marketing people? Any branding issues? Will it do the desired job of recognising donors? DesDev people? Beyond the points Jeff's brought up, any problems? Generally, anything to stop it happening, at least until something better is provided? http://acornparenting.org:8080/donation_wall for those playing along at home. That's on the eouk box btw: the URL will of course be more sensible (eg http://give.evolt.org) - it's just a quick Apache config change plus DNS. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > As far as sharing the data across *eo sites for > consistent donation bar purposes, I'm sure a simple XML > feed would do nicely. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > yes it would. Can provide a feed for you, no problem. Spec the format (sample file would be helpful) and you'll get it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Note that this is an already existing problem with leo, > deo and beo (which has a wrong-coloured top bar btw). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > sure, but it's not accuracy of the numbers that matters, Assuming that the 'not' was a typo, it remains a problem for leo, deo & beo. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Well, when you code up a fully integrated system to > manage all of *eo, we'll use it. I don't propose waiting > for the donation wall until that happens, particularly > as at the moment, you're too busy to forward emails to > theforum. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > easy with the cheap shots. No cheap shots, Jeff - I genuinely understand how busy you are. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > (Incidentally, Weo members won't neatly map onto donors) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > they would if we developed and enforced some form of global login > system. I don't propose requiring that anyone be a member before they give us something. Cheers Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From jeff at jeffhowden.com Sun Aug 3 21:34:10 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:34:10 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Donation Wall In-Reply-To: <1059962423.7151@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1059963554.25947@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > > i didn't say "it's all rubbish". i simply offered my > > opinion on implementation. > > Which were essentially "I wouldn't do it like that" > without much suggestion for how else it would be done > rapidly. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i simply made it a point to challenge the current offering because i know how things work around here. we put something up to get it up quickly and then when someone else comes along with what they think is a better solution, the new solution gets lost in the din of debate. so, i was just trying to make sure that what was being put together now would last us as long as possible. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Generally, anything to stop it happening, at least until > something better is provided? > > http://acornparenting.org:8080/donation_wall > for those playing along at home. That's on the eouk box > btw: the URL will of course be more sensible (eg > http://give.evolt.org) - it's just a quick Apache config > change plus DNS. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm still fuzzy on who will actually be *using* this donation wall. is it meant to replace the "support evolt.org" article on weo? is it meant to be a tracking tool for treasurers? give me a clear picture of the problems it's intended to solve and i'll feel alot better about it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > yes it would. > > Can provide a feed for you, no problem. Spec the format > (sample file would be helpful) and you'll get it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no problem. i have some ideas, but we can save that discussion for alittle later. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > sure, but it's not accuracy of the numbers that > > matters, > > Assuming that the 'not' was a typo, it remains a problem > for leo, deo & beo. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, agreed. and the same solution that weo uses can be used there as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > easy with the cheap shots. > > No cheap shots, Jeff - I genuinely understand how busy > you are. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< then please be alittle more sensitive in your comments. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I don't propose requiring that anyone be a member before > they give us something. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< me neither. i just want to come up with ways to make it more appealing for members to donate (ie, recognition for those that want it). .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Mon Aug 4 04:09:54 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:09:54 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Donation Wall References: Message-ID: <014b01c35a68$2b4ea9a0$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Martin wrote: > Jeff wrote to desdev > [snip] > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > As far as sharing the data across *eo sites for > > consistent donation bar purposes, I'm sure a simple XML > > feed would do nicely. > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > yes it would. > > Can provide a feed for you, no problem. Spec the format (sample file > would be helpful) and you'll get it. Make it some common XML type, e.g. RSS, and let people use the data for their own ickle "help evolt.org" links :) Could also have an ickle png for people to link to with the current goal on it. -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From neuro at well.com Mon Aug 4 04:10:56 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:10:56 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: [theforum] evolt.org is closing in on it's 5th birthday ...really fast References: Message-ID: <015b01c35a68$50322cb0$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Martin Paul Burns wrote: > Hey Isaac! > > Good to see you back on email > > If people are happy with the idea, the weekends of: > * 24/25 October > * 1/2 November > * 8/9 November > look likely sounds funky - CODEVOLT! :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From martin.burns at uk.ibm.com Mon Aug 4 03:57:05 2003 From: martin.burns at uk.ibm.com (Martin Paul Burns) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:57:05 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] really fast Message-ID: Hey Isaac! Good to see you back on email If people are happy with the idea, the weekends of: * 24/25 October * 1/2 November * 8/9 November look likely Cheers Martin "Isaac Forman" To: Sent by: cc: theforum-bounces at lists Subject: Re: [theforum] evolt.org is closing in on it's 5th birthday ... really fast .evolt.org 04/08/2003 00:23 Please respond to Isaac Forman,"theforum at lists .evolt.org" > We can easily have quite a few people in the same place and time covering > visual design, IA, code and hosting, particularly now Isaac's in the UK... > > I'm happy to host that once we have broadband. That's going to be October, > which I think makes a convenient deadline to get it done, leaving a month/ > 6 weeks to test and tweak. I have a laptop with a wireless card, so I can easily participate if it's on my day(s) off. If it's not a busy week (unlike that of ukevolt), I could put in advance notice for a weekend, but no guarantees. Every weekend out here appears to coincide with a big wedding or local agricultural show. Zzz. One thing that we can arrange, though, is that a design is finalised so that at a codefest we're just cutting/CSSing/etc. From martin.burns at uk.ibm.com Mon Aug 4 04:09:02 2003 From: martin.burns at uk.ibm.com (Martin Paul Burns) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:09:02 +0100 Subject: [Finance] RE: [DesDev] Donation Wall Message-ID: "Jeff Howden" To: Sent by: cc: finance-bounces at list Subject: [Finance] RE: [DesDev] Donation Wall s.evolt.org 04/08/2003 03:34 Please respond to finance > i simply made it a point to challenge the current offering because i know > how things work around here. we put something up to get it up quickly and > then when someone else comes along with what they think is a better > solution, the new solution gets lost in the din of debate. I think we can get round that in 3 ways: 1) Agree that this is temporary 2) Agree how we'd recognise its replacement (global login sounds sensible) 3) Agree that this should be part of the larger redesign [side-issue - if you want to come back on it, start a separate thread please - I think maybe a global login might be a sensible thing to do with the redesign] >i'm still fuzzy on who will actually be *using* this donation wall. 1) Tracking and reporting for Finance 2) Donor recognition for Marketing There's basically 3 high level use cases: 1) Treasurer (or rather 'user with treasurer role') adds new donations, which can be in cash, in kind (as a monetary equivalent), by members or not. 2) Site visitors are pointed from the 'support evolt' article on weo to see who else has given and average amounts. 3) Total amount is made available as an XML feed to other *eo sites ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > sure, but it's not accuracy of the numbers that > > matters, > > Assuming that the 'not' was a typo, it remains a problem > for leo, deo & beo. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >yes, agreed. and the same solution that weo uses can be used there as well. Not at present, while weo uses CF, deo and beo use PHP and leo uses something Python/Mailman-ish (but has PHP, Perl, ASP and SSIs available). Although an XML feed may solve this. Cheers Martin From martin at easyweb.co.uk Fri Aug 8 09:55:04 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:55:04 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: [theforum] evolt.org is closing in on it's 5th birthday ...really fast In-Reply-To: <51002.128.252.1.130.1060353783.squirrel@katie.everybox.com> Message-ID: <4B3EBEA5-C9B0-11D7-9C83-000A959F6A30@easyweb.co.uk> On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 03:43 pm, David A. Ulevitch wrote: > Do I make the DNS change or does John or someone else? > I *can* make it... > > Is there some other list I should be on? Sysadmin To keep myself/us honest btw - anyone got any problems with this? Desdev people particularly. The site is set up such that you can not only have joint documents in a wiki, you can also publish static documents and images that aren't collectively editable. Cheers Martin From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Aug 13 04:04:31 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:04:31 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: [theforum] movement for redesign In-Reply-To: <1060741704.26610@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <26BFEDD8-CD6D-11D7-9841-000A959F6A30@easyweb.co.uk> On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 03:43 am, Jeff Howden wrote: > so, rather than talking about details so much, can we please continue > with > the conversation about high-level requirements and go from there? Which for those playing along at home started at http://lists.evolt.org/theforumarchive/Week-of-Mon-20030811/000182.html and hasn't really got anywhere. If we're OK with those, can we please start fleshing them out on the wiki btw, I can set it up such that desdev gets an email every time a feature request is put in to the collector: http://wiki.evolt.org/issues Useful? Cheers Martin -- Now playing on iTunes: "Saor/Free/News from Nowhere" by Afro Celt Sound System from 'Sound Magic, Vol. 1' - a hit from way back in 1996 From neuro at well.com Wed Aug 13 10:50:47 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:50:47 +0100 Subject: [desdev] movement for redesign References: <20030813132441.GG905@leon> <3F3A48A7.7050905@illuminosity.net> Message-ID: <04e801c361b2$aa239f00$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Lachlan Cannon wrote: > Garrett Coakley wrote: > > Hope you don't mind Isaac, but I've done a little mockup just to see > if I > > was thinking straight. > > > > http://polytechnic.co.uk/evolt/evolt_work-header_moved.png > > Based on that I fiddled some more and came up with > > http://illuminosity.net/test/evolt_work-header_2.png Nice .. I was thinking that maybe the blue bar should be immediately under the black primary navigation bar, to immediately signify where you are, and to free up a smidge of real estate? > [snip] > > Also, maybe those options could be stored in their user profiles. (ie, > luminosity prefers 10 results per page). ooh yes please :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From dmah at shaw.ca Wed Aug 13 13:20:50 2003 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:20:50 -0600 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A48A7.7050905@illuminosity.net> Message-ID: <20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 04:41:21PM +0100, Isaac Forman wrote: > http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif Also add back the "Email this article" feature. Dean From isaac at bigtrip.org Wed Aug 13 14:04:49 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:04:49 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) In-Reply-To: <20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: This is the first email I have got since I resub'ed to desdev 5 minutes ago. You say "also" as though there was a previous instruction for me. Can I have a clue? But yes, we should probably put the email this article line up with print/rate it. > > http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif > > Also add back the "Email this article" feature. > > Dean > _______________________________________________ > DesDev mailing list > DesDev at lists.evolt.org > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/desdev > From jeff at jeffhowden.com Wed Aug 13 14:05:27 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:05:27 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) In-Reply-To: <1060801036.1102@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1060801276.8116@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> > Also add back the "Email this article" feature. +1 i've already got a nice app developed for that that'd work perfectly. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From dmah at shaw.ca Wed Aug 13 14:42:42 2003 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:42:42 -0600 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) In-Reply-To: References: <20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <20030813194242.GA11125@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Sorry, context was only in my head. I was looking at the screenshot and all of the article functions and thought, we also need to add an email link. So read it as "Add back the 'Email this article' feature." Dean On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 08:04:49PM +0100, Isaac Forman wrote: > This is the first email I have got since I resub'ed to desdev 5 > minutes ago. You say "also" as though there was a previous > instruction for me. Can I have a clue? > > But yes, we should probably put the email this article line up with > print/rate it. > > > > http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif > > > > Also add back the "Email this article" feature. > > > > Dean From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 16:21:50 2003 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:21:50 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side Message-ID: >>so, rather than talking about details so much, can we please continue with >>the conversation about high-level requirements and go from there? > >Which for those playing along at home started at >http://lists.evolt.org/theforumarchive/Week-of-Mon-20030811/000182.html >and hasn't really got anywhere. As I said on theforum I volunteer to do all the client side stuff for the Evolt redesign. (X)HTML (pick your flavour), CSS, JavaScript, possibly also some interaction design. No graphic design, I'm very bad at it. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this offer. I do like to work on my own, that is, get a PSD and create a complete template first, and discuss and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad teamwork programmer since I always feel I know everything better . I'd like to treat this as a normal job, so I'm allocating about four days to it, probably somewhere early in October. Martin said he wanted the coding to be done in October, and since he's the closest thing to a project manager we're having, his will is Law. I'd like to write a normal functional design for it, too, as I always do. (do you call it a 'functional design'? You know, where you break down the navigation, sum up the elements on the screen, give some flowcharts and interaction instructions) Has anyone ever written something like this? We'll have to wait for the discussion about the actual functionalities to end first, but when that's done I'd like to make a solid interaction breakdown so I know what I'll have to create. I'd like to have a formal project team for the client side redesign, though. It makes things so much easier in the long run. Who is going to be responsible for the design? Isaac? He's the one who actually set things rolling by his proposal and he's done some homework. Martin seems to be de facto project manager, which is fine by me. Who else is going to be involved in the client side redesign? ------------------------------------------------------------------- ppk, freelance web developer Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/ New: Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues http://evolt.org/article/rdf/25/60181/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tara at taracleveland.com Wed Aug 13 16:42:29 2003 From: tara at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:42:29 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter-Paul Koch wrote: > Who else is going to be involved in the client side redesign? Well I'm more of a designer/html coder/IA type. I can't commit a huge amount of time, but I can certainly be called upon in a graphic-type emergency or for a specific task - ie. Tara can you layout/design/make graphics for this page/set of pages etc. or for bouncing ideas off of and throwing in some opinions. Hope I can be of some help, Tara From elfur at elfur.is Wed Aug 13 18:15:09 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:15:09 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: Message-ID: <03dd01c361f0$be1db890$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Peter-Paul Koch" | | As I said on theforum I volunteer to do all the client side stuff for the | Evolt redesign. (X)HTML (pick your flavour), CSS, JavaScript, possibly also | some interaction design. No graphic design, I'm very bad at it. good news. | I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this offer. I do like to work on | my own, that is, get a PSD and create a complete template first, and discuss | and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad teamwork programmer since I | always feel I know everything better . heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. but i like the fact that we have two competent folks fighting^W making a team effort to accomplish this. | I'd like to treat this as a normal job, so I'm allocating about four days to | it, probably somewhere early in October. Martin said he wanted the coding to | be done in October, and since he's the closest thing to a project manager | we're having, his will is Law. heh. | I'd like to write a normal functional design for it, too, as I always do. | (do you call it a 'functional design'? You know, where you break down the | navigation, sum up the elements on the screen, give some flowcharts and | interaction instructions) i'm also pretty sure that javier would want to be involved in this part with you, but again, team work rocks. | Has anyone ever written something like this? We'll have to wait for the | discussion about the actual functionalities to end first, but when that's | done I'd like to make a solid interaction breakdown so I know what I'll have | to create. if i'm reading you correctly, javier has done something, but i might be misunderstanding you completely. btw. javier should be online soon, he just moved to Maine from Chile last week so let's give him time to settle down. | I'd like to have a formal project team for the client side redesign, though. | It makes things so much easier in the long run. Who is going to be | responsible for the design? Isaac? probably yes, with some folks butting in saying, "change that" or "make that look prettier" or even, "that is not the most sensible place for this" but i think his will be the greatest portion. | Martin seems to be de | facto project manager, which is fine by me. absolutely, but he's not subbed to desdev, so there needs to be a person here that keeps us going. and with his second baby coming around christmas i don't see him subbing here in the near future. | Who else is going to be involved in the client side redesign? i'm going to be as involved as possible, but have no idea what that means at all. I have my daughter as my first priority and my school as second and all her after school activity as third, and then there's my job ... so not sure how many hours i'll have. but rest assure, whenever i feel the energy flowing, i'm butting in, you know ... the besserwisser [1] telling you that something else is better ;) but i feel like we are waking up enough of dead leading to only needing a few more to volunteer ... but new blood is always good. thanks elfur [1] for those not understanding german: besserwisser = the one who feels he always knows better. From seb at poked.org Wed Aug 13 18:49:26 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb Potter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:49:26 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) In-Reply-To: <20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> References: <3F3A48A7.7050905@illuminosity.net> <20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:20:50 -0600, Dean Mah wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 04:41:21PM +0100, Isaac Forman wrote: > >> http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif > > Also add back the "Email this article" feature. Not only "email this article", but I think we should be looking at offering articles in various file formats, such as PDF, DOC, etc. The technology is available for transformations of this kind, and there's no exucse to not transition the existing content base to XHTML, so this kind of feature becomes readily available across many platforms. - seb -- http://poked.org From neuro at well.com Wed Aug 13 18:59:18 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:59:18 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: <03dd01c361f0$be1db890$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <062901c361f6$e86220e0$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Elfur Logadottir wrote: > From: "Peter-Paul Koch" > > > [snip] > > > I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this offer. I do like to > > work on my own, that is, get a PSD and create a complete template > > first, and discuss and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad > > teamwork programmer since I always feel I know everything better . > > heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. and the rest of us!!! :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From neuro at well.com Wed Aug 13 19:13:37 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:13:37 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] was (Re: [--forum] movement for redesign) References: <3F3A48A7.7050905@illuminosity.net><20030813182050.GA8833@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <063201c361f8$e88415e0$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Seb Potter wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:20:50 -0600, Dean Mah wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 04:41:21PM +0100, Isaac Forman wrote: > > > > > http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif > > > > Also add back the "Email this article" feature. > > Not only "email this article", but I think we should be looking at > offering articles in various file formats, such as PDF, DOC, etc. Why? Want it printable, use the print media stylesheet method :) But yeah, could be nice from a cool feature pov :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Wed Aug 13 19:22:12 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:22:12 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <1060816341.6862@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> elfur, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Elfur Logadottir > > From: "Peter-Paul Koch" > > | I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this > | offer. I do like to work on my own, that is, get a > | PSD and create a complete template first, and discuss > | and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad > | teamwork programmer since I always feel I know > | everything better . > > heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. > but i like the fact that we have two competent folks > fighting^W making a team effort to accomplish this. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< make that three. i do tons of psd -> xhtml/css stuff. i will probably wanna butt in and give my opinion on things throughout the process. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | Martin seems to be de facto project manager, which is > | fine by me. > > absolutely, but he's not subbed to desdev, so there > needs to be a person here that keeps us going. and > with his second baby coming around christmas i don't > see him subbing here in the near future. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm not actually sure how much "project management" experience martin has? martin? (if you're listening). technically as lead for desdev i suppose i should be doing some of that stuff, but i'll admit i suck at that. .jeff ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist R?sum? - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From elfur at elfur.is Wed Aug 13 19:53:45 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:53:45 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <040801c361fe$845646a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Jeff Howden" | | elfur, | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > From: Elfur Logadottir | > | > heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. | > but i like the fact that we have two competent folks | > fighting^W making a team effort to accomplish this. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | make that three. i do tons of psd -> xhtml/css stuff. i will probably | wanna butt in and give my opinion on things throughout the process. see, the pissing contest has started already ;) but seriously, i knew about you as well. and i think it's great that we have [at least] three competent persons doing this part. and then me and all the other followers will show up and actually do the work, once y'all have made the template ... and learn heaps from it all, right tara? | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > | Martin seems to be de facto project manager, which is | > | fine by me. | > | > absolutely, but he's not subbed to desdev, so there | > needs to be a person here that keeps us going. and | > with his second baby coming around christmas i don't | > see him subbing here in the near future. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | technically as lead for desdev i suppose i | should be doing some of that stuff, but i'll admit i suck at that. well, i agree with what martin said on theforum the other day: those heavily active in the programming part shouldn't be project managers ... that's just not sensible use of their time, y'know. it's the buzzphrase of the century: "do what you're best at, outsource the rest" and i want to "outsource" the project management part to (a) person(s) that is enthusiastic about evolt.org's future, but feels as if they have no place for their enthusiastic efforts because their skillset isn't within the normal range of programming/designing. as i've said before, i have a certain person in mind, not sure they will be able to do this, and i haven't mentioned it to them, but i feel they would do a hell of a job. however i'm still sitting on that recommendation while waiting to see if anyone steps up willing to do it. laters elfur From martin.burns at uk.ibm.com Thu Aug 14 12:03:28 2003 From: martin.burns at uk.ibm.com (Martin Paul Burns) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:03:28 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Project Managing the redesign Message-ID: Jeff wrote: ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | Martin seems to be de facto project manager, which is > | fine by me. > > absolutely, but he's not subbed to desdev, so there > needs to be a person here that keeps us going. and > with his second baby coming around christmas i don't > see him subbing here in the near future. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >i'm not actually sure how much "project management" experience martin has? >martin? (if you're listening). Listening, aye, but consciously not subbed. Several years' worth, from wee projects to quite big things. But like Elfur says, I don't have the time. What I *can* do is facilitate the process - set a few things up to make it easier along the way and provide some healthy shoves in the requirements stage. For the first I think I've done most of my doing (set up wiki.evolt.org mainly) and for the second, I don't really want to get down to the level of detail (example - I think the visual design is just great in direction even if it's not the final one) and I trust desdev's judgement. We'll see how long I resist *grin* The other thing I'll do is keep pushing for the process to keep moving along. We have a *lot* to do, and we all have the tendency to get mired in detail too early. Let's keep moving, eh? Cheers Martin From elfur at elfur.is Fri Aug 15 16:23:19 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:23:19 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> <040801c361fe$845646a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Elfur Logadottir" | | well, i agree with what martin said on theforum the other day: | those heavily active in the programming part shouldn't be project managers | ... that's just not sensible use of their time, y'know. | | it's the buzzphrase of the century: "do what you're best at, outsource the | rest" | | and i want to "outsource" the project management part to (a) person(s) that | is enthusiastic about evolt.org's future, but feels as if they have no | place for their enthusiastic efforts because their skillset isn't within | the normal range of programming/designing. | | as i've said before, i have a certain person in mind, not sure they will be | able to do this, and i haven't mentioned it to them, but i feel they would | do a hell of a job. however i'm still sitting on that recommendation while | waiting to see if anyone steps up willing to do it. after being approached offlist by three different people telling me to just talk to that person, i did and she is willing to take it on. So this is me nominating Sabrina Dent, the ?bergrrl who single-handedly (sp?) made EUvolt 2003 even greater experience that i could ever have anticipated, and that was not easy. I don't know if I have to introduce her at all, she's the one active on thechat and *the* chat (IRC) and is more than likely the person adding sex to the discussion. So you see, handing her the whip seems like the logical thing to do ;) she is somewhat busy 'till the end of august, but i know for sure that she's the type we need; not afraid to kick ass if needed, has worked with wikis before and is passionate about our future. so without further ado, let's finish the discussion and (hopefully) approve quickly. here's my +1 to that vote, for the record ;) until next time elfur *the voting one* From mike.king at redroom.biz Sat Aug 16 04:03:10 2003 From: mike.king at redroom.biz (Mike King) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:03:10 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> References: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> <040801c361fe$845646a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> <016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3F3DF34E.2070204@redroom.biz> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'll wake up from my lurking slumber and vote +1 / Me too. Cheers mk On 15/08/2003 22:23, Elfur Logadottir wrote: | | So this is me nominating Sabrina Dent, the ?bergrrl who single-handedly | (sp?) made EUvolt 2003 even greater experience that i could ever have | anticipated, and that was not easy. | | so without further ado, let's finish the discussion and (hopefully) approve | quickly. | here's my +1 to that vote, for the record ;) | | until next time | elfur | *the voting one* - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-nr2 (Windows 2000) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/PfNOm2LjSyt0+CERAh38AJ4pzGPyFHs9Lm+DjhzmjptJQQ484gCgsaKw jW4Iw/fa8OkDV88Uca8Vis8= =3mwf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From neuro at well.com Sat Aug 16 06:44:23 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:44:23 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com><040801c361fe$845646a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS><016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS><3F3DF34E.2070204@redroom.biz> <57072.128.252.250.231.1061032062.squirrel@katie.everybox.com> Message-ID: <032201c363eb$bdb7a760$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> David A. Ulevitch wrote: > +1 +1 -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From rwd at csi1st.net Sat Aug 16 08:16:07 2003 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:16:07 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side References: <1060820280.14367@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> <040801c361fe$845646a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> <016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3F3E2E97.8010606@csi1st.net> +1 Ron D. Elfur Logadottir wrote: >So this is me nominating Sabrina Dent, > From tara at taracleveland.com Sat Aug 16 08:54:40 2003 From: tara at taracleveland.com (Tara Cleveland) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:54:40 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <016501c36373$746daf00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: Elfur Logadottir wrote: > So this is me nominating Sabrina Dent +1 from the Blackout Zone Tara From isaac at bigtrip.org Sun Aug 17 04:54:35 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:54:35 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Browser Archive Message-ID: <000c01c364a5$91f28f40$d51d4e51@Monkey> William, You mentioned that you had ideas for a revised front door for the archive. Any specifics? isaac From seb at poked.org Sun Aug 17 10:18:05 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb Potter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:18:05 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:54:40 -0400, Tara Cleveland wrote: > Elfur Logadottir wrote: >> So this is me nominating Sabrina Dent +1 - seb -- http://poked.org From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 12:25:10 2003 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:25:10 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side Message-ID: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Elfur Logadottir > > > > From: "Peter-Paul Koch" > > > > | I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this > > | offer. I do like to work on my own, that is, get a > > | PSD and create a complete template first, and discuss > > | and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad > > | teamwork programmer since I always feel I know > > | everything better . > > > > heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. > > but i like the fact that we have two competent folks > > fighting^W making a team effort to accomplish this. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >make that three. i do tons of psd -> xhtml/css stuff. i will probably >wanna butt in and give my opinion on things throughout the process. OK, so that's Adrian, Jeff and me for client side programming. I can live with that. Sorry for not getting back to you all, but I'm completely redoing my house right now and for some reason my hub has not survived moving it to another room. I currently don't have an Internet connection at home, and even if I had I'd be too busy to do something right now. My offer stands, though, even though I'll start acting on it only in September. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ppk, freelance web developer Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/ New: Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues http://evolt.org/article/rdf/25/60181/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From isaac at bigtrip.org Sun Aug 17 18:28:44 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:28:44 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision Message-ID: <000101c36517$4de21060$76184e51@Monkey> OK, I've made some changes: http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif More links in the sub-site header (including Authors, News, etc). Also, a HR that ties the article strip with the author strip. Under the article title is text outlining translations of the article. Rest is more or less the same. What is left, besides colours, that people might have issues with? Are we all 100% happy with the black header? (maybe with adjustment of the donate box -- could be text-ad spot?). What about with the login/search bar? isaac From neuro at well.com Sun Aug 17 19:07:17 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:07:17 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision In-Reply-To: <000101c36517$4de21060$76184e51@Monkey> References: <000101c36517$4de21060$76184e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <3F4018B5.4080100@well.com> Isaac Forman wrote: > OK, I've made some changes: > > http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif hmmm, I'm still of the opinion that the right hand authorbox is too wide, but I appreciate it's nice to keep the original author images for convienence and continuities sake. If the article text can wrap around this - I think I mentioned this before - then that would rock. Beyond that, rock on! :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From elfur at elfur.is Sun Aug 17 19:49:56 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:49:56 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000101c36517$4de21060$76184e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <02ce01c36522$a58a8d00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" [warning: my reply is not well constructed, i'm trying to record my thoughts as they come) | OK, I've made some changes: | | http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif do you think we could have one page on the wiki with all the sketches (sp?) you've done so far? | More links in the sub-site header (including Authors, News, etc). all of a sudden i feel like home, faq and contact should be seperate ... cause they are a different kind of links than the rest. they appear on every section of the site, even though they refer to section related home/faq/contact don't they? | Also, a HR that ties the article strip with the author strip. you mean the one under the title, right? would it be wrong to have a title of sorts over the author sidebar? "about the author" or simply "the author" or something, but then, i'm not sure myself. i know i learn pretty soon that this is the author part, but because the "posted on ... in ... by isaac" part is pretty weak i'm thinking maybe it should be made more clear for the new visitors. | Under the article title is text outlining translations of the article. i like that - a lot. | Rest is more or less the same. | | | What is left, besides colours, that people might have issues with? Are | we all 100% happy with the black header? (maybe with adjustment of the | donate box -- could be text-ad spot?). yes. the black part of the header is very attractive. i like it a lot. although, i would like the donation part to be permanent there - i think. | What about with the login/search bar? i think it's the search bar meeting the subheader that is the problem for me. maybe it's cause it's blending in with the background. do you think it could be thinner? it's the same height as the black header, isn't it? maybe it's in the relative sizes of these three bars in the header that is bugging me, but i'm not sure. the fact that the section related header is framed within that search/login bar is probably where i'm not quite content. I'm still not getting the connection from the black header to the blue subheader ... and it has nothing to do with the actual blue color, i promise. Do you mind playing with a few things, not sure they'll work, but they might, or maybe assist you in finding a better solution: * try nixing the framing of the content (or at least severely minimize the left and right border) * try making the leftmostpart of the subheader black and that way have the section reference absolutely clear, cause it's going to have the same look. i realize that means that you have a more visible vertical line on the left sidebar, but it might be something ... if you find a good way to execute it. again, i'm not saying it will work, and you don't have to do them both in one layout, these are just suggestions that might help me make the connection as to where within evolt.org i am at any given moment. thanks elfur From isaac at bigtrip.org Sun Aug 17 20:06:22 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:06:22 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision In-Reply-To: <02ce01c36522$a58a8d00$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <000401c36524$f1558e90$76184e51@Monkey> > do you think we could have one page on the wiki with all the > sketches (sp?) you've done so far? I don't like the wiki. Sorry! Anyone is welcome to collate them though. > all of a sudden i feel like home, faq and contact should be > seperate ... cause they are a different kind of links than > the rest. they appear on every section of the site, even > though they refer to section related home/faq/contact don't they? Home goes to subsite home. FAQ is subsite FAQ (i.e., about articles and all of that junk). And Contact on the Articles section would link foremost to a form/email that contacts the Content team. That's how I've seen it being for at least a year. > * try nixing the framing of the content (or at least severely > minimize the left and right border) Already tried it. Looks too common. > * try making the leftmostpart of the subheader black and that > way have the section reference absolutely clear, cause it's > going to have the same look. i realize that means that you > have a more visible vertical line on the left sidebar, but it > might be something ... if you find a good way to execute it. Already tried it as harsh block and gradient. Doesn't work, and also has the problem that you mentioned of adding a very prominent point of alignment. Maybe the key is adding the search/login to the black bar. I just wanted that to be quite slim as it will exist on EVERYTHING evolt.org-related. Will play around further. isaac From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 00:34:04 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:34:04 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000401c36524$f1558e90$76184e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <05bd01c3654a$56d15310$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" > do you think we could have one page on the wiki with all the | > sketches (sp?) you've done so far? | | I don't like the wiki. Sorry! Anyone is welcome to collate them though. ok. will try to. | > all of a sudden i feel like home, faq and contact should be | > seperate ... cause they are a different kind of links than | > the rest. they appear on every section of the site, even | > though they refer to section related home/faq/contact don't they? | | Home goes to subsite home. FAQ is subsite FAQ (i.e., about articles and | all of that junk). And Contact on the Articles section would link | foremost to a form/email that contacts the Content team. That's how I've | seen it being for at least a year. which is what i thought, so maybe they should be grouped on the subheader in some way and the rest of the items on that header also grouped preferably (sp?) in another way. | > * try nixing the framing of the content (or at least severely | > minimize the left and right border) | | Already tried it. Looks too common. common how? have you tried removing the bgcolor and having the search/logon bar white? i realize that's removing a big part of current design, but still, if it solves the connection problems many of us are having, it might be worth it. something like this: http://nemendur.ru.is/elfur01/temp/evolt_article2-elfur.gif (note, i didn't move anything, i only replaced the colors and lengthened the blue bar) for me, this relaxes the design ... there aren't as many colors competing for attention. for a second i even considered not lengthening the blue bar, but i'll leave that to you. | > * try making the leftmostpart of the subheader black and that | > way have the section reference absolutely clear, cause it's | > going to have the same look. i realize that means that you | > have a more visible vertical line on the left sidebar, but it | > might be something ... if you find a good way to execute it. | | Already tried it as harsh block and gradient. Doesn't work, and also has | the problem that you mentioned of adding a very prominent point of | alignment. rats, i feared that. | Maybe the key is adding the search/login to the black bar. I just wanted | that to be quite slim as it will exist on EVERYTHING evolt.org-related. as will the search/logon, but i agree with you, don't enlarge the black one. having them as seperate bars works just fine ... it's when the third one comes into play that the problems arise. thanks elfur From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 00:40:37 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:40:37 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000401c36524$f1558e90$76184e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <05c701c3654b$411a48a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" | > do you think we could have one page on the wiki with all the | > sketches (sp?) you've done so far? | | I don't like the wiki. Sorry! Anyone is welcome to collate them though. ok, so i've added a page to the wiki - it's linked from the front page where i added a section about committees at work: http://wiki.evolt.org/wiki/DesDevCommittee on this page is now all of the design suggestions that isaac has done and all suggestions anyone has made ... without the explanations that followed, for that you need the emails ;) cheers elfur From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 00:42:34 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:42:34 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000401c36524$f1558e90$76184e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <05cf01c3654b$86b83e80$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" > do you think we could have one page on the wiki with all the | > sketches (sp?) you've done so far? | | I don't like the wiki. Sorry! Anyone is welcome to collate them though. ok. will try to. | > all of a sudden i feel like home, faq and contact should be | > seperate ... cause they are a different kind of links than | > the rest. they appear on every section of the site, even | > though they refer to section related home/faq/contact don't they? | | Home goes to subsite home. FAQ is subsite FAQ (i.e., about articles and | all of that junk). And Contact on the Articles section would link | foremost to a form/email that contacts the Content team. That's how I've | seen it being for at least a year. which is what i thought, so maybe they should be grouped on the subheader in some way and the rest of the items on that header also grouped preferably (sp?) in another way. | > * try nixing the framing of the content (or at least severely | > minimize the left and right border) | | Already tried it. Looks too common. common how? have you tried removing the bgcolor and having the search/logon bar white? i realize that's removing a big part of current design, but still, if it solves the connection problems many of us are having, it might be worth it. something like this: http://nemendur.ru.is/elfur01/temp/evolt_article2-elfur.gif (note, i didn't move anything, i only replaced the colors and lengthened the blue bar) for me, this relaxes the design ... there aren't as many colors competing for attention. for a second i even considered not lengthening the blue bar, but i'll leave that to you. | > * try making the leftmostpart of the subheader black and that | > way have the section reference absolutely clear, cause it's | > going to have the same look. i realize that means that you | > have a more visible vertical line on the left sidebar, but it | > might be something ... if you find a good way to execute it. | | Already tried it as harsh block and gradient. Doesn't work, and also has | the problem that you mentioned of adding a very prominent point of | alignment. rats, i feared that. | Maybe the key is adding the search/login to the black bar. I just wanted | that to be quite slim as it will exist on EVERYTHING evolt.org-related. as will the search/logon, but i agree with you, don't enlarge the black one. having them as seperate bars works just fine ... it's when the third one comes into play that the problems arise. thanks elfur From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 00:44:09 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:44:09 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000401c36524$f1558e90$76184e51@Monkey> <05cf01c3654b$86b83e80$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <05d601c3654b$bf4e7b10$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Elfur Logadottir" | sorry for the double post, my own filters were playing with me. *shrug* elfur From jeff at jeffhowden.com Mon Aug 18 00:49:29 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:49:29 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki Message-ID: <1061185514.6184@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Martin, Can you relax the username hounds on the wiki just enough for my usual username to work? I get the following error message when I try to register with a username of ".jeff" (no quotes). "The login name you selected is already in use or is not valid. Please choose another." As the error message isn't terribly useful, I suppose the error is because I already have an account. However, when I try to have it send me my password, it tells me no such username exists. Thanks, Jeff ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist R?sum? - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From seb at poked.org Mon Aug 18 02:52:50 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:52:50 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:49:29 -0700, Jeff Howden wrote: > Martin, > > Can you relax the username hounds on the wiki just enough for my usual > username to work? I get the following error message when I try to > register > with a username of ".jeff" (no quotes). > > "The login name you selected is already in use or is > not valid. Please choose another." Hey Jeff, Sorry, but this is Zope restriction on object names, as the . is used for a reserved namespace (and isn't valid at all when using authentication systems such as LDAP, Kerberos, Unix passwd, etc...). One workaround I often use for people with more exotic usernames is to have a separate display name. I don't know if this is really worth the effort on the project wiki. Regards, - seb -- http://poked.org From isaac at bigtrip.org Mon Aug 18 05:01:08 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:01:08 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision In-Reply-To: <05bd01c3654a$56d15310$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <000001c3656f$a68316d0$887f893e@Monkey> > which is what i thought, so maybe they should be grouped on > the subheader in some way and the rest of the items on that > header also grouped preferably (sp?) in another way. Good idea. And standardised location within each site. > common how? Like a lot of other sites. > as will the search/logon, but i agree with you, don't enlarge > the black one. having them as seperate bars works just fine > ... it's when the third one comes into play that the problems arise. I think that there has to be a third bar. We can't have those links floating without a background. We could consider tabs of some sort, but I'd want them to be pretty slick and neat. isaac From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Mon Aug 18 05:21:41 2003 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:21:41 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <032201c363eb$bdb7a760$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> References: <57072.128.252.250.231.1061032062.squirrel@katie.everybox.com> <032201c363eb$bdb7a760$c902a8c0@local.zensoft.net> Message-ID: <20030818102141.GA861@leon> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 12:44:23PM +0100, William Anderson wrote: > David A. Ulevitch wrote: > > +1 +1 From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 05:53:04 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:53:04 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000001c3656f$a68316d0$887f893e@Monkey> Message-ID: <05e501c36576$e79258a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" | > which is what i thought, so maybe they should be grouped on | > the subheader in some way and the rest of the items on that | > header also grouped preferably (sp?) in another way. | | Good idea. And standardised location within each site. exactly. | > common how? | | Like a lot of other sites. ah. ok. we don't want to do that ;) | > as will the search/logon, but i agree with you, don't enlarge | > the black one. having them as seperate bars works just fine | > ... it's when the third one comes into play that the problems arise. | | I think that there has to be a third bar. We can't have those links | floating without a background. We could consider tabs of some sort, but | I'd want them to be pretty slick and neat. oh, absolutely. the third bar is needed, all i was saying was that with your design, the problem for me was not the black bar, and not the search/login bar but the third bar cause it was lacking the connection to the section on the black bar. i must say though, that after i removed that cc9-like color i like your design even better (if that's possible) - but maybe my version of it is to common, it was a cheap change indeed and took all of 3 minutes or so. thanks elfur From elfur at elfur.is Mon Aug 18 05:55:48 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:55:48 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Article template concept revision References: <000001c3656f$a68316d0$887f893e@Monkey> Message-ID: <05f801c36577$4933a1e0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" | > which is what i thought, so maybe they should be grouped on | > the subheader in some way and the rest of the items on that | > header also grouped preferably (sp?) in another way. | | Good idea. And standardised location within each site. exactly. | > common how? | | Like a lot of other sites. ah. ok. we don't want to do that ;) | > as will the search/logon, but i agree with you, don't enlarge | > the black one. having them as seperate bars works just fine | > ... it's when the third one comes into play that the problems arise. | | I think that there has to be a third bar. We can't have those links | floating without a background. We could consider tabs of some sort, but | I'd want them to be pretty slick and neat. oh, absolutely. the third bar is needed, all i was saying was that with your design, the problem for me was not the black bar, and not the search/login bar but the third bar cause it was lacking the connection to the section on the black bar. i must say though, that after i removed that cc9-like color i like your design even better (if that's possible) - but maybe my version of it is to common, it was a cheap change indeed and took all of 3 minutes or so. thanks elfur From neuro at well.com Tue Aug 19 08:28:44 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:28:44 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F42260C.9020209@well.com> Peter-Paul Koch wrote: > [snip] > > OK, so that's Adrian, Jeff and me for client side programming. I can > live with that. Hey look, I became invisible! :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Aug 19 08:39:52 2003 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:39:52 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <3F42260C.9020209@well.com> References: <3F42260C.9020209@well.com> Message-ID: <20030819133951.GF482@leon> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:28:44PM +0100, William Anderson wrote: > Hey look, I became invisible! :) Ditto... /me squirts red poster paint all over neuro Haha... I can see you! Now put your bandages back on and stop making faces. G. From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 08:49:48 2003 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:49:48 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <20030819133951.GF482@leon> References: <3F42260C.9020209@well.com> Message-ID: > From: Garrett Coakley > > /me squirts red poster paint all over neuro > > Haha... I can see you! er, aim over here, too... i may be quiet, but i'm still skulking around the back... -- my latest book project: Web Graphics for Non-Designers http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151159/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151159 From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Aug 19 09:15:12 2003 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:15:12 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: <200308191350.h7JDoir11634@chillibean.dsvr.co.uk> References: <3F42260C.9020209@well.com> <200308191350.h7JDoir11634@chillibean.dsvr.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030819141511.GH482@leon> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 09:49:48AM -0400, aardvark wrote: > er, aim over here, too... *splosh* G. "Poster paint assassinations and hit'n'run DIY a speciality" From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 16:15:22 2003 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:15:22 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side Message-ID: >>[snip] >> >>OK, so that's Adrian, Jeff and me for client side programming. I can live >>with that. > >Hey look, I became invisible! :) You're into CSP, too (apart from the splashing problem)? Good to know. Nobody mentioned you, so I didn't know you're interested, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ppk, freelance web developer Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/ New: Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues http://evolt.org/article/rdf/25/60181/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From neuro at well.com Tue Aug 19 19:11:17 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:11:17 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: redesign - client side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F42BCA5.5070804@well.com> Peter-Paul Koch wrote: > > >>> [snip] >>> >>> OK, so that's Adrian, Jeff and me for client side programming. I can >>> live with that. >> >> >> Hey look, I became invisible! :) > > > You're into CSP, too (apart from the splashing problem)? Good to know. > Nobody mentioned you, so I didn't know you're interested, too. um ... William Anderson wrote on 14/08/2003: > Elfur Logadottir wrote: > >>From: "Peter-Paul Koch" >> >>[snip] >> >> >>>I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by this offer. I do like to >>>work on my own, that is, get a PSD and create a complete template >>>first, and discuss and amend it only afterwards. I'm a pretty bad >>>teamwork programmer since I always feel I know everything better . >> >>heh. i'm guessing you and adrian will fight for it then. > > > and the rest of us!!! :) There are quite a few of us on desdev who are here because we want to help out with the frontend as well as the backend - don't just assume :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From isaac at bigtrip.org Wed Aug 20 05:03:33 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:03:33 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] What's next? Message-ID: <001301c36702$6a544910$603b4e51@Monkey> For the Work side of evolt.org, we need to adapt the current site to show Jobs independently, do things with News slightly differently, allow articles to exist in multiple languages, etc. The first two of those things are very straightforward, but have we had any collective thoughts about the multiple languages situation? I know that we've discussed it before. Additionally, what progress was ever made in discussions regarding the SSO for evolt.org sites? isaac From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Aug 21 07:48:23 2003 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:48:23 -0600 Subject: [DesDev] What's next? Message-ID: <20030821124823.GB1347@alice.cg.shawcable.net> > Additionally, what progress was ever made in discussions regarding > the SSO for evolt.org sites? I don't think that anything was ever settled. However, IIRC, the stumbling block was m.e.o. The authentication and authorization information would be exposed to the m.e.o membership at large. I think that we wanted a way of allowing members to use member credentials but not have the details given to them which would compromise security. Obviously, since m.e.o is no longer an issue, designing something should be a little easier. Dean From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 21 10:00:06 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:00:06 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] What's next? In-Reply-To: <20030821124823.GB1347@alice.cg.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <000001c367f4$ea47efd0$788f4c51@Monkey> > I don't think that anything was ever settled. However, IIRC, > the stumbling block was m.e.o. The authentication and > authorization information would be exposed to the m.e.o > membership at large. > > I think that we wanted a way of allowing members to use > member credentials but not have the details given to them > which would compromise security. > > Obviously, since m.e.o is no longer an issue, designing > something should be a little easier. That's good news. So, given that we are likely to run a number of sub-sites on servers not located on the same immediate network, using varying backend applications, the SSO is achievable. Using what? Cookies? isaac From seb at poked.org Thu Aug 21 11:32:04 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:32:04 +0100 Subject: SSO (was: Re: [DesDev] What's next?) In-Reply-To: <000001c367f4$ea47efd0$788f4c51@Monkey> References: <000001c367f4$ea47efd0$788f4c51@Monkey> Message-ID: > So, given that we are likely to run a number of sub-sites on servers not > located on the same immediate network, using varying backend > applications, the SSO is achievable. > > Using what? Cookies? Well, for the client-side 'remembering who the person is', that might be one solution. The much more pressing issue is the authentication system to use, and how it can be implemented across a range of applications, platofrms, and networks. The most logical approach to take is to separate this out into a standardised directory service, such as LDAP, which can provide cross- domain authentication and rights management. (Not considering things like user bios, site-specific data, etc, which in a heterogenous environment would need to made available in some kind of web-service fashion, more on this later.) Directory services based on LDAP are platform portable, available for free, and were designed for this purpose. The alternative is to attempt to specify and build something ourselves, which is a larger burden in terms of time and resources that could be better focussed on making the more difficult things work. -- http://poked.org From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Aug 21 13:33:48 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:33:48 -0700 Subject: SSO (was: Re: [DesDev] What's next?) In-Reply-To: <1061490101.2328@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1061490570.27733@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> seb, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Seb > > Directory services based on LDAP are platform portable, > available for free, and were designed for this purpose. > The alternative is to attempt to specify and build > something ourselves, which is a larger burden in terms > of time and resources that could be better focussed on > making the more difficult things work. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i see the setup and integration with some sort of ldap too costly for what we need. i envision all sorts of migration nightmares, spreading of data across disparate systems, etc. instead, why not make the authentication mechanism a webservice against the database that houses the user data? .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Aug 21 16:05:30 2003 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:05:30 -0600 Subject: [DesDev] What's next? In-Reply-To: <000001c367f4$ea47efd0$788f4c51@Monkey> References: <20030821124823.GB1347@alice.cg.shawcable.net> <000001c367f4$ea47efd0$788f4c51@Monkey> Message-ID: <20030821210530.GA11841@alice.cg.shawcable.net> On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 04:00:06PM +0100, Isaac Forman wrote: > > I don't think that anything was ever settled. However, IIRC, > > the stumbling block was m.e.o. The authentication and > > authorization information would be exposed to the m.e.o > > membership at large. > > > > I think that we wanted a way of allowing members to use > > member credentials but not have the details given to them > > which would compromise security. > > > > Obviously, since m.e.o is no longer an issue, designing > > something should be a little easier. > > That's good news. > > So, given that we are likely to run a number of sub-sites on servers not > located on the same immediate network, using varying backend > applications, the SSO is achievable. > > Using what? Cookies? It's been almost 2 years since it was first discussed in detail. Check out the threads starting with: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/003369.html Dean From martin at easyweb.co.uk Fri Aug 22 16:31:23 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:31:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [DesDev] Re: Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061185514.6184@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> References: <1061185514.6184@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Jeff Howden wrote: > > Martin, > > Can you relax the username hounds on the wiki just enough for my usual > username to work? I get the following error message when I try to register > with a username of ".jeff" (no quotes). > > "The login name you selected is already in use or is > not valid. Please choose another." > > As the error message isn't terribly useful, I suppose the error is because I > already have an account. However, when I try to have it send me my > password, it tells me no such username exists. hi Jeff Sorry it took so long to get back to you - I've been away all week on client site (and will be Mon-Fri for the next few weeks - best address for me there is prolly martin.burns at uk.ibm.com) I see Seb's already answered this - basically, the dot is a reserved character for the 1st char of a user name. Sorry... Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From martin at easyweb.co.uk Fri Aug 22 17:46:31 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:46:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: SSO (was: Re: [DesDev] What's next?) Message-ID: Jeff wrote: > i see the setup and integration with some sort of ldap too costly for > what we need. Jeff Not sure what this means - is that money cost? If so, I'd rather it were done on the basis of 'what we need and what it will cost' then let finance work out if it's affordable rather than trying to second-guess it. Cheers Martin -- "Names, once they are in common use, quickly become mere sounds, their etymology being buried, like so many of the earth's marvels, beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie From jeff at jeffhowden.com Fri Aug 22 17:57:53 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:57:53 -0700 Subject: SSO (was: Re: [DesDev] What's next?) In-Reply-To: <1061592672.15217@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1061592815.14553@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > > i see the setup and integration with some sort of ldap > > too costly for what we need. > > Not sure what this means - is that money cost? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, seeing as how i, steering's desdev rep, haven't been given a working budget by finance, cost can only mean time. ;) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If so, I'd rather it were done on the basis of 'what we > need and what it will cost' then let finance work out if > it's affordable rather than trying to second-guess it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< um, see above. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From seb at poked.org Fri Aug 22 19:03:57 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb Potter) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:03:57 +0100 Subject: SSO (was: Re: [DesDev] What's next?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Martin >> >> > i see the setup and integration with some sort of ldap >> > too costly for what we need. >> >> Not sure what this means - is that money cost? >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > well, seeing as how i, steering's desdev rep, haven't been given a > working > budget by finance, cost can only mean time. Well in that case, LDAP is a reasonable choice, as there are several free (beer/speech) implementations. Time will be reduced in the long run as LDAP is a standard, and as such there will be a larger base of knowledge to work from. There may be an associated cost in terms of migration away from our current bespoke authentication solution, but this is a mitigated cost in terms of portability and scalability, as well as the reduced reliance on a proprietary database solution has very real associated licensing and platform costs. As we have seen too many times already, relying on donated licenses and hardware is an unworkable solution in anything other than the short term. Of course, there are other authentication solutions available, and I encourage others to suggest some. - seb -- http://poked.org From jeff_howden at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 13:15:46 2003 From: jeff_howden at yahoo.com (jeff h) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DesDev] evolt.org down Message-ID: <20030824181546.99998.qmail@web9805.mail.yahoo.com> Hi everyone, I was alerted to some connectivity issues early this morning at the colo facility where the server that hosts evolt.org is at. I've been over to the colo to find out what the problem is and it, unfortunately, isn't anything within my control. I have phone calls in to the guy that runs the colo, but haven't heard anything back yet. I'll keep you all posted on the progress. Thanks, Jeff ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist R?sum? - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From seb at poked.org Sun Aug 24 15:43:09 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb Potter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:43:09 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: evolt.org down In-Reply-To: <20030824181546.99998.qmail@web9805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030824181546.99998.qmail@web9805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:15:46 -0700 (PDT), jeff h wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was alerted to some connectivity issues early this > morning at the colo facility where the server that > hosts evolt.org is at. I've been over to the colo to > find out what the problem is and it, unfortunately, > isn't anything within my control. I have phone calls > in to the guy that runs the colo, but haven't heard > anything back yet. I'll keep you all posted on the > progress. Well, it's back. - seb -- http://poked.org From jeff at jeffhowden.com Sat Aug 23 18:51:19 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:51:19 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061198275.20156@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1061682418.23466@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> seb, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Seb > > Sorry, but this is Zope restriction on object names, as > the . is used for a reserved namespace (and isn't valid > at all when using authentication systems such as LDAP, > Kerberos, Unix passwd, etc...). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that sucks. heck, i've been known as .jeff as long as zope has been around. i really could care less if it isn't valid when using certain restrictive-naming authentication systems. ;p ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > One workaround I often use for people with more exotic > usernames is to have a separate display name. I don't > know if this is really worth the effort on the project > wiki. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, seeing as how that's the moniker that everyone recognizes me by, i'd appreciate a reconsideration. .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Mon Aug 25 19:17:58 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:17:58 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061682418.23466@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> References: <1061682418.23466@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <3F4AA736.3090706@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > [snip] > > well, seeing as how that's the moniker that everyone recognizes me by, i'd > appreciate a reconsideration. Come on jeff, if i have to put up with neuro_ including the underscore on irc, can't you put up with dotjeff or jeff or something for now? It's just a wiki for development purposes, not a system that will be preserved for the entirety of mankind ... -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Mon Aug 25 22:36:00 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:36:00 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061861733.15457@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1061868699.1358@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> william, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: William Anderson > > > well, seeing as how that's the moniker that everyone > > recognizes me by, i'd appreciate a reconsideration. > > Come on jeff, if i have to put up with neuro_ including > the underscore on irc, can't you put up with dotjeff or > jeff or something for now? It's just a wiki for > development purposes, not a system that will be > preserved for the entirety of mankind ... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure, and tell adrian he has to be called armadillo on the wiki because "aardvark" is a reserved word. ;p .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From morgan at morgankelsey.com Tue Aug 26 00:25:19 2003 From: morgan at morgankelsey.com (Morgan Kelsey) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:25:19 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki References: <1061868699.1358@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <000d01c36b92$7112ca80$6401a8c0@boppadeedee2> jeff, > sure, and tell adrian he has to be called armadillo on the wiki because > "aardvark" is a reserved word. > > ;p > please get your mammals in order, an armadillo is *not* an aardvark, its more of an armored raccoon. i believe you may have meant "anteater". http://www.britannica.com/search?query=aardvark http://www.britannica.com/search?query=armadillo ;p and double ;p on the serious side... it does seem to be an odd restriction, since some sites encourage people to use their email as their login. (not that we need to make an issue of it) morgan http://morgankelsey.com From jeff at jeffhowden.com Tue Aug 26 02:28:05 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:28:05 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061881833.3442@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1061882622.14650@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> morgan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Morgan Kelsey > > > sure, and tell adrian he has to be called armadillo on > > the wiki because "aardvark" is a reserved word. > > please get your mammals in order, an armadillo is *not* > an aardvark, its more of an armored raccoon. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i know. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i believe you may have meant "anteater". > > http://www.britannica.com/search?query=aardvark > http://www.britannica.com/search?query=armadillo ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, i meant armadillo. it was to illustrate (poorly apparently) the absurdity of applying programming language variable naming rules and conventions to a login name. ;p ;p ;p and ;p .jeff ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist R?sum? - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From neuro at well.com Tue Aug 26 04:07:57 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:07:57 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Wiki In-Reply-To: <1061882622.14650@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> References: <1061882622.14650@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <3F4B236D.8000301@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > [snip] > > no, i meant armadillo. it was to illustrate (poorly apparently) the > absurdity of applying programming language variable naming rules and > conventions to a login name. It's absurd, right fine, whatever, can you deal with it *for now*, for in future we'll use SSO which i'm sure won't be constrained by dots in the login name ... -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 28 07:40:36 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:40:36 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template Message-ID: <000701c36d61$97a9d190$4d6b893e@Monkey> If we're all more or less happy with the design concepts I've presented, does the team looking to do the template programming want to start having a bash at putting some XHTML and CSS together? Obviously the backend (discussion even) is still to be sorted out, but is there any reason we can't at least start experimenting with methods of laying this design out? isaac From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Aug 28 09:13:08 2003 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:13:08 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <000701c36d61$97a9d190$4d6b893e@Monkey> Message-ID: > From: "Isaac Forman" > > If we're all more or less happy with the design concepts I've > presented, does the team looking to do the template programming want > to start having a bash at putting some XHTML and CSS together? woo hoo! so, XHTML 1.0 Transitional? has anyone decided what MIME type we'll serve it as? CSS 2.1? no tables for layout? no embedded style? no overuse of classes, spans, or divs? > Obviously the backend (discussion even) is still to be sorted out, but > is there any reason we can't at least start experimenting with methods > of laying this design out? nup. can you repoint to the final design location? maybe a URL with a PSD? and will each site use the same basic template? -- my latest book project: Web Graphics for Non-Designers http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151159/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1904151159 From elfur at elfur.is Thu Aug 28 09:44:04 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfur_Logad=F3ttir?=) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:44:04 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <000701c36d61$97a9d190$4d6b893e@Monkey> Message-ID: <005d01c36d72$d7697d60$e90214ac@hir.is> .| [mailto:desdev-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Isaac Forman .| .| If we're all more or less happy with the design concepts .| I've presented, does the team looking to do the template .| programming want to start having a bash at putting some .| XHTML and CSS together? hmmm. weren't most of us thinking about a better solution for the login part? and the connection between black and sub header? thanks elfur From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 28 12:48:31 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:48:31 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <005d01c36d72$d7697d60$e90214ac@hir.is> Message-ID: <001001c36d8c$99a7b5e0$4d6b893e@Monkey> > hmmm. weren't most of us thinking about a better solution for > the login part? and the connection between black and sub header? Login part was modified: http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif Also, I think that the blue Cube and Work title in the black bar is soundly reflected in the blue cube, blue bar and Work title in the sub-header. I have tried a tab, and it ruins the black bar. I refuse to use a line down from the cube as someone (sorry, can't remember who) has suggested in the past. Your suggestion (http://nemendur.ru.is/elfur01/temp/evolt_article2-elfur.gif) that helps you associate the blue cube to the subheader is, IMO, too stark. I'm not sure how the extra white helps you associate the header and subheader. My thinking is that the taupe under the login/search block pulls it back somewhat. The white-bg'ed article area gains the contrast (and thus focus), and that is the important point. People who are using evolt.org will know where the login/search are; people arriving from Google (for e.g.) are there primarily for the article itself. Any option of joining or undertaking further searches are a secondary function. I think that your trouble of associating the header cubes with the subheader block comes from not being able to navigate through a real site styled like this. Once it's built, it'll be 'click red cube. Oh, red header. Click blue cube. Oh, blue header!' isaac From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 28 12:48:31 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:48:31 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <14035065649108@nt.ircsa.com.au> Message-ID: <001101c36d8c$9c853350$4d6b893e@Monkey> > can you repoint to the final design location? maybe a URL with a > PSD? and will each site use the same basic template? I will do it in parts (header first, etc) cos on this shitty connection, 3MB PSD is too painful to put up. From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 14:38:25 2003 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:38:25 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template Message-ID: > > If we're all more or less happy with the design concepts I've > > presented, does the team looking to do the template programming want > > to start having a bash at putting some XHTML and CSS together? > >woo hoo! > >so, XHTML 1.0 Transitional? has anyone decided what MIME type >we'll serve it as? CSS 2.1? no tables for layout? no embedded >style? no overuse of classes, spans, or divs? I agree with everything. As to mime type: keep it simple and use text/html. The other stuff is too complicated for use and useless anyway. > > Obviously the backend (discussion even) is still to be sorted out, but > > is there any reason we can't at least start experimenting with methods > > of laying this design out? > >nup. > >can you repoint to the final design location? maybe a URL with a >PSD? and will each site use the same basic template? And who's actually going to take the first stab at coding it? I'd love to but I don't have time for the next two weeks. Or maybe several people could download the psd and try individually, then the group decides which batch of code is going to be developed further. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ppk, freelance web developer Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/ New: Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues http://evolt.org/article/rdf/25/60181/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From elfur at elfur.is Thu Aug 28 17:30:14 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:30:14 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template References: <001001c36d8c$99a7b5e0$4d6b893e@Monkey> Message-ID: <009b01c36db3$f3e572a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Isaac Forman" | > hmmm. weren't most of us thinking about a better solution for | > the login part? and the connection between black and sub header? | | Login part was modified: | http://www.triplezero.com.au/production/evolt/evolt_article.gif i must admit, it had more character when the line was broken on the right because of the bigger search possibilities. there was something in that, maybe this is to "clean" | Also, I think that the blue Cube and Work title in the black bar is | soundly reflected in the blue cube, blue bar and Work title in the | sub-header. i know they are all there, it's the relative position and focus that is bugging a few of us. | I have tried a tab, and it ruins the black bar. I refuse to use a line | down from the cube as someone (sorry, can't remember who) has suggested | in the past. agreed. although there was something in that line, it doesn't "mesh" with the design at all. | Your suggestion | (http://nemendur.ru.is/elfur01/temp/evolt_article2-elfur.gif) that helps | you associate the blue cube to the subheader is, IMO, too stark. you know, at least a few of us have made the comment that the only part of the design we had problems with was this three part header conjunction. several suggestions have been made but none of them have invoked a possibly different solution of that header on your part (i'm not even going close to saying that any of the suggestions are any good, that's not the point i'm making). i appreciate that you're frustrated by the comments and lame suggestions, and i'm not going to argue with you, but i guess i'm asking if you could present a different solution of some sort - even if that one would be less favoured by you - that way we have the possibility to agree with you ;). i'm not fond of my suggestion as a solution either, it was a quick mock and i'm not asking that you make a solution based on that, at all! | I'm not | sure how the extra white helps you associate the header and subheader. it's not about the extra white, it's about the removal of taupe (that's the name of the color, right :) | My thinking is that the taupe under the login/search block pulls it back | somewhat. The white-bg'ed article area gains the contrast (and thus | focus) it has the opposite effect on me. with this color the surrounding of the article area is competing for attension, there's too much going on and the blue bar is lost in all the action. by removing the extra color, it felt more relaxed. fewer points asking for imminent focus - but my suggestion was just that, a suggestion not a solution. | and that [the contrast/focus of arcticle area] is the important point. i agree with you there. for me that happens by removing the extra color, although i do admit - you could probably find a much better solution of changing/removing the tension than i did. | People who are using evolt.org | will know where the login/search are; people arriving from Google (for | e.g.) are there primarily for the article itself. Any option of joining | or undertaking further searches are a secondary function. again, this is my reasoning as well. we are indeed agreeing on the principal while disagreeing on the execution. | I think that your trouble of associating the header cubes with the | subheader block comes from not being able to navigate through a real | site styled like this. no, actually i'm some what good at visualizing surroundings when given a rough idea, so that's not it. my problem is with the subheader itself, that it isn't getting calm enough surroundings to get appropriate focus thanks elfur From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 28 18:29:01 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:29:01 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <009b01c36db3$f3e572a0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Message-ID: <001f01c36dbc$2a79f220$4d6b893e@Monkey> > you know, at least a few of us have made the comment that the > only part of the design we had problems with was this three > part header conjunction. several suggestions have been made > but none of them have invoked a possibly different solution > of that header on your part (i'm not even going close to I don't think you would do it intentionally, but it seems like you're calling me on lack of action? I've just put out all of these templates amidst paid work, a writing project, and 50-60 hours/week working at a bar. I am not stopping anyone interested in seeing an alternative style actually trying it themselves. A couple of people have done this to (what I would call) little/no response. If you have another idea that you'd like to try, that's cool. You've done it already and you can do it again, right? This is my design proposal until I receive a suggestion that I personally think improves the design. I'm not going to present something that I don't favour and that I don't think looks good. I've tried tabs (looks very average). I've tried a gradient (looks cheap), and I've tried a black block under the cube/Work bit in the subheader (strengthens the grid too much). I just don't have time to go back, redo each of these things that I've discarded and cut them to GIFs and put them online. Anyone else can do that if they like. > it's not about the extra white, it's about the removal of > taupe (that's the name of the color, right :) The taupe gives it warmth (more so than if I'd used grey). It works with those three base evolt.org colours. And it keeps the white region as an exclusive content-focused region. Removing the taupe leaves us with a stark area that competes with the focus/intensity of the content area. There are ways that we can give focus to each of the three boxes in the header as they're selected, but that's largely irrelevant to design/layout right now, IMO. i.e., it's changing an image or similar. > i agree with you there. for me that happens by removing the > extra color, although i do admit - you could probably find a > much better solution of changing/removing the tension than i did. I get no feeling of tension. It looks 'right' to me. The hierarchy of 3 cubes, then evolt.org-wide login and search options, then sub-site header/content is perfectly logical for me. I don't like the idea of having a login box in a sub-site sidebar if I'm logging in to a network of sites (which is what we have). > no, actually i'm some what good at visualizing surroundings > when given a rough idea, so that's not it. my problem is with > the subheader itself, that it isn't getting calm enough > surroundings to get appropriate focus In this context, stark white isn't calm. And an application of any other of the RGB triplet cannot work (red and green? Ugh!). So I've used a colour that can associate reasonably with all 3 of R, G, and B. isaac From neuro at well.com Thu Aug 28 18:52:27 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:52:27 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F4E95BB.4050007@well.com> Peter-Paul Koch wrote: > [snip] > > Or maybe several people could download the psd and try individually, > then the group decides which batch of code is going to be developed > further. or we could hang fire for a wee bit until we perhaps have something like a CVS repository to manage any code we decide to generate, since it looks like we'll have a few people building stuff? :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From isaac at bigtrip.org Thu Aug 28 18:58:15 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:58:15 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design Message-ID: <002001c36dc0$3fa37050$4d6b893e@Monkey> I was going to call for a vote on the designs presented so we could just get moving, but I have one last idea to try that might finally keep Elfur happy! Stay tuned. For now, going to bed. isaac From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Aug 28 20:16:38 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:16:38 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <1062106223.19646@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1062119532.8328@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Isaac Forman > > I think that your trouble of associating the header > cubes with the subheader block comes from not being > able to navigate through a real site styled like this. > Once it's built, it'll be 'click red cube. Oh, red > header. Click blue cube. Oh, blue header!' ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< +1 i happen to like the taupe quite a lot. in fact, i like isaac's work in general quite a lot. so, if no one has any suggested solutions to things they perceive as problems (and not just the voicing or perceived problems alone) can we move on? thanks, .jeff ------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist Resume - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From jeff at jeffhowden.com Thu Aug 28 20:27:32 2003 From: jeff at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:27:32 -0700 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <1062118435.22097@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <1062120187.25856@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> elfur, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Elfur Logadottir > > | Your suggestion > | (http://nemendur.ru.is/elfur01/temp/evolt_article2-elfur.gif) > | that helps you associate the blue cube to the subheader > | is, IMO, too stark. > > you know, at least a few of us have made the comment that > the only part of the design we had problems with was this > three part header conjunction. several suggestions have > been made but none of them have invoked a possibly > different solution of that header on your part [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no offense, but suggestions from others shouldn't necessarily imply that isaac put more time into the design. if those with suggestions are so inclined, let them submit suggestions. let those suggestions stand on their own merit. if they're inferior, they will be dropped and not make it to the final cut. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i appreciate that you're frustrated by the comments and > lame suggestions, and i'm not going to argue with you, > but i guess i'm asking if you could present a different > solution of some sort - even if that one would be less > favoured by you - that way we have the possibility to > agree with you ;). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you know, some of us already agree with isaac. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | I'm not sure how the extra white helps you associate > | the header and subheader. > > it's not about the extra white, it's about the removal > of taupe (that's the name of the color, right :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think the taupe works really well. why does it need to go again? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | My thinking is that the taupe under the login/search > | block pulls it back somewhat. The white-bg'ed article > | area gains the contrast (and thus focus) > > it has the opposite effect on me. with this color the > surrounding of the article area is competing for > attension, there's too much going on and the blue bar is > lost in all the action. by removing the extra color, it > felt more relaxed. fewer points asking for imminent > focus - but my suggestion was just that, a suggestion > not a solution. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it's the opposite to me. isaac's design puts the focus on the article, as it should be. your suggestion makes the blue bar stand out way too much, taking the focus away from the thing that's important -- the content area. .jeff ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jeff Howden - Web Application Specialist R?sum? - http://jeffhowden.com/about/resume/ Code Library - http://evolt.jeffhowden.com/jeff/code/ From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Aug 28 21:28:17 2003 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:17 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F4E8201.6193.33D5E9E4@localhost> > From: "Peter-Paul Koch" [...] > >so, XHTML 1.0 Transitional? has anyone decided what MIME type > >we'll serve it as? CSS 2.1? no tables for layout? no embedded > >style? no overuse of classes, spans, or divs? > > I agree with everything. As to mime type: keep it simple and use > text/html. The other stuff is too complicated for use and useless > anyway. well, if we don't get the MIME, then it isn't really XHTML... it won't validate as such... and given that (i think) that MIME type causes IE6/win some issues, that's a concern... of course, HTML itself *isn't* a discarded standard... we *could* still do all of the above in HTML *and* serve it as the correct MIME type... as it is, the articles themselves won't validate when you consider none of the elements have a self-terminating slash... or am i being too picky? [...] > And who's actually going to take the first stab at coding it? I'd love > to but I don't have time for the next two weeks. > > Or maybe several people could download the psd and try individually, > then the group decides which batch of code is going to be developed > further. well, i'm gonna... regardless... and i do have version control... however, i'm moving this weekend, so i won't realistically start until monday... even if someone else does it, i'm still gonna tackle it just to make sure i *can* do it, and also because we might benefit from it... hmmm.... -- yet another book: The Web Professional's Handbook http://roselli.org/adrian/books/handbook.asp ISBN: 1904151221 From neuro at well.com Thu Aug 28 21:38:21 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:38:21 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <1062120187.25856@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> References: <1062120187.25856@LISTSERV.alphashop.com> Message-ID: <3F4EBC9D.7020809@well.com> Jeff Howden wrote: > elfur, > > [snip] > > no offense, but suggestions from others shouldn't necessarily imply that > isaac put more time into the design. if those with suggestions are so > inclined, let them submit suggestions. let those suggestions stand on their > own merit. if they're inferior, they will be dropped and not make it to the > final cut. +1 > [white content bg over taupe page bg snippage] > > it's the opposite to me. isaac's design puts the focus on the article, as > it should be. your suggestion makes the blue bar stand out way too much, > taking the focus away from the thing that's important -- the content area. +1 -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From neuro at well.com Thu Aug 28 22:02:18 2003 From: neuro at well.com (William Anderson) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:02:18 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template In-Reply-To: <55486.128.252.30.1.1062123439.squirrel@katie.everybox.com> References: <3F4E95BB.4050007@well.com> <55486.128.252.30.1.1062123439.squirrel@katie.everybox.com> Message-ID: <3F4EC23A.6080003@well.com> David A. Ulevitch wrote: > I can have CVS, webspace and dev accounts setup whenever directed. David, can i just take a bit of time at this juncture to say "you rock"? I can? OK. You rock. Had to be done :) -- _ __/| ___ ___ __ _________ "When Microsoft Office is your only hammer, \`O_o' / _ \/ -_) // / __/ _ \ pretty much everything begins to look like =(_ _)=/_//_/\__/\_,_/_/ \___/ a nail. Or a thumb." -- Rob Pegoraro U - Ack! Phttpt! Thhbbt! neuro at well dot com http://neuro.me.uk/ From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 03:16:56 2003 From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:16:56 +0000 Subject: [DesDev] Design to template Message-ID: > > >so, XHTML 1.0 Transitional? has anyone decided what MIME type > > >we'll serve it as? CSS 2.1? no tables for layout? no embedded > > >style? no overuse of classes, spans, or divs? > > > > I agree with everything. As to mime type: keep it simple and use > > text/html. The other stuff is too complicated for use and useless > > anyway. > >well, if we don't get the MIME, then it isn't really XHTML... Can't we pretend it is? Opera 7.20 doesn't seem to recognize JavaScript when you serve an HTML page with application/xml+xhtml . This actually seems to be a feature, not a bug, but in general the Opera team gets far too high on the standards and starts doing strange things. it >won't validate as such... and given that (i think) that MIME type >causes IE6/win some issues, that's a concern... > >of course, HTML itself *isn't* a discarded standard... we *could* >still do all of the above in HTML *and* serve it as the correct MIME >type... You mean good old HTML 4.01 Trans? Yeah, why not? Frankly I don't care a bit, let the group decide. >as it is, the articles themselves won't validate when you consider >none of the elements have a self-terminating slash... > >or am i being too picky? We could add the trailing slash in the new templates. >[...] > > And who's actually going to take the first stab at coding it? I'd love > > to but I don't have time for the next two weeks. > > > > Or maybe several people could download the psd and try individually, > > then the group decides which batch of code is going to be developed > > further. > >well, i'm gonna... regardless... and i do have version control... > >however, i'm moving this weekend, so i won't realistically start >until monday... > >even if someone else does it, i'm still gonna tackle it just to make >sure i *can* do it, and also because we might benefit from it... My idea exactly, except that I'll start a week later than you. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ppk, freelance web developer Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/ New: Browser Wars II: The Saga Continues http://evolt.org/article/rdf/25/60181/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From isaac at bigtrip.org Fri Aug 29 05:16:24 2003 From: isaac at bigtrip.org (Isaac Forman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:16:24 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design -- all please review Message-ID: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> OK, hopefully this is the last major change: http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article3.g if Content area and subheader still float on the taupe. Login and search blocks added to the top of the header in a dark grey block. Final thoughts? Isaac (currently working on: http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/mercedes/mercedes7.gif ) From seb at poked.org Fri Aug 29 05:44:33 2003 From: seb at poked.org (Seb) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:44:33 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Design -- all please review In-Reply-To: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> References: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> Message-ID: > OK, hopefully this is the last major change: > > http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article3.g > if > > Content area and subheader still float on the taupe. Login and search > blocks added to the top of the header in a dark grey block. > > > Final thoughts? Whilst I like this design, my immediate thoughts was "where the heck did the login and search boxes go?" Took my a second to notice them at the top, which I think is caused by a habit of ignoring anything above a part of the page that looks like a banner... I definitely prefer the previous version ( http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif ) It's clear, simple, and delineates the page nicely. I'm afraid I don't see the disassociation issues that other have been talking about: to me it's really clear that blue header and blue cube go together. (Heck, everyone in my office agrees that it's a great design, which is a first. ;-) I'm very much inclined to go with the evolt_article2.gif version, unless somebody can come up with a better design. I know I can't. - seb -- http://poked.org From elfur at elfur.is Fri Aug 29 06:05:48 2003 From: elfur at elfur.is (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfur_Logad=F3ttir?=) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:05:48 -0000 Subject: [DesDev] Design -- all please review In-Reply-To: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <005e01c36e1d$80b74ff0$e90214ac@hir.is> .| OK, hopefully this is the last major change: .| .| .| Final thoughts? if it's just me, then don't bother with further changes, i'm not here to stall the production. i was obviously too tired to respond to any mail last night and shouldn't have. but since i did, let's just leave it at that. i like both suggestions, but am not forming any further opinion on either one. thanks for doing this isaac. elfur /crawling back under the rock From rwd at csi1st.net Fri Aug 29 08:34:57 2003 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:34:57 -0500 Subject: [DesDev] Design -- all please review References: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <3F4F5681.5030203@csi1st.net> Seb wrote: >> OK, hopefully this is the last major change: >> >> http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article3.gif >> >> >> Final thoughts? > > > I definitely prefer the previous version ( > http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif > ) It's clear, simple, and delineates the page nicely. I agree with Seb. Nice work Isaac. Ron D. From morgan at morgankelsey.com Fri Aug 29 09:05:48 2003 From: morgan at morgankelsey.com (Morgan Kelsey) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:05:48 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] Design -- all please review References: <000201c36e16$9ac87470$ad2b4e51@Monkey> Message-ID: <000a01c36e36$a5dd9f00$6801a8c0@boppadeedee2> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [DesDev] Design -- all please review > > OK, hopefully this is the last major change: > > > > http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article3.g > > if > > > > Content area and subheader still float on the taupe. Login and search > > blocks added to the top of the header in a dark grey block. > > > > > > Final thoughts? > > > Whilst I like this design, my immediate thoughts was "where the heck did > the login and search boxes go?" Took my a second to notice them at the top, > which I think is caused by a habit of ignoring anything above a part of the > page that looks like a banner... > > I definitely prefer the previous version ( > http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/evolt_article2.gif ) > It's clear, simple, and delineates the page nicely. I'm afraid I don't see > the disassociation issues that other have been talking about: to me it's > really clear that blue header and blue cube go together. (Heck, everyone in i like them both, alot. i think i like the new one more, because: it's simpler, there's less colors, and i like the forms all the way at the top. it's definitely different (i personally haven't seen a login handled that way, though i'm sure it exists) but it's also sensible. my first impression was: "hmmmm.....what a great idea!" like i said, i like em both, just my 2c. (too early for ascii) nagrom From roselli at earthlink.net Sun Aug 31 07:14:48 2003 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:14:48 -0400 Subject: [DesDev] going offline... Message-ID: <3F51AE78.20396.403B99DB@localhost> as if i've been online as of late, anyway... but i'm moving, so this machine is coming down... if you need me, i should be online again sometime late tuesday... -- my latest book project: Web Graphics for Non-Designers http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590591712/evoltorg02-20 ISBN: 1590591712 From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sun Aug 31 05:36:50 2003 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:36:50 +0100 Subject: [DesDev] Re: Message-ID: <077E447B-DB9F-11D7-BBD9-000A959F6A30@easyweb.co.uk> Seb wrote: > > > http://www.triplezero.fsbusiness.co.uk/production/evolt/ > evolt_article3.g > > if > > > > Content area and subheader still float on the taupe. Login and search > > blocks added to the top of the header in a dark grey block. > > > > > > Final thoughts? > > Whilst I like this design, my immediate thoughts was "where the heck > did > the login and search boxes go?" Took my a second to notice them at the > top, > which I think is caused by a habit of ignoring anything above a part > of the > page that looks like a banner... +1 to that - exactly my thoughts. Of the 2, I prefer evolt_article2, but I can see how separating the banner with the colour coding could make the colour association a bit less obvious. I'm wondering if it's because the login status stuff is just too wide with the form fields in there. I'm also thinking that the search sits more naturally with the rest of the navigation. So I've thrown together: http://www.easyweb.co.uk/evolt/evolt_article4a.gif Which moves the search box to the nav, and removes the actual login form to a separate page. I think most regular users will use the 'remember me' option anyway. That area now becomes a login status. Showing what it's like if you're logged in: http://www.easyweb.co.uk/evolt/evolt_article4b.gif Makes sense to me to add links to preferences and stuff there. Cheers Martin -- Now playing on iTunes: "Tir A' Mhurain" by Runrig from 'Searchlight' - a hit from way back in 1989