[thechat] Europe, take back the web...

[Martin Burns]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Erika Meyer wrote:

> and wait... you want everyone on the Internet to be subject to
> individual laws in every country?  So, if on my blog, I say "Jiang
> Zemin is a big weenie" and if that is illegal in China, what then?

That's exactly the point. Unless you or your server is in China, the
Chinese govt (or whoever) would have to go through the same due process as
they would if you wrote it in your local newspaper.

Whereas now, if I post the DeCSS code on my blog, I'd get my local
police force at my door pretty quickly, even though I'd broken no laws in
my country.

> But Euro-snobbiness is pretty irritating, too.  This implication of
> "we're civilized and cultured and you're imperialist renegades"
> doesn't impress.  Honey, we learned from the best.

Yes, so what's the problem (other than knee-jerk defensiveness) about the
reformed criminal pointing out "Y'all said it was bad when *we* did it..."

> I think we'd all be better off educating the masses (particularly
> Americans) than regulating them.

See, that's your national culture. Others have different ones, in part
formed from a different view on the legitimacy of regulation.

> Empowerment, education, free speech.  It's a global culture.

No, that's an American culture (and 'free speech' is only free within
certain limits anyway. I know you know your Chomsky better than that).
Other cultures have different views on what those mean, how appropriate
they are, and how the needs of the individual are balanced against those
of the state.

And all that's without saying one word about which opinion is right or
better - perhaps a definition of "right" is "that which the culture
broadly agrees on"?

Of course, the US leadership view on democracy includes "electing the
person *we* want" (cf Yasser Arafat)

> I live in Oregon.  I own no assault weapons.  I'd prefer no one else
> did, either.

The majority opinion in your country disagrees with you. But the majority
opinion in the UK is strongly against personal ownership of firearms. Our
laws reflect our country's opinion, as does yours. Why should that be
different online? Should UK citizens be allowed to buy firearms online and
get round the local laws that way? Arguably not.

> I wish we could come up with an international group to deal with
> legal issues on the 'net, starting with the principle of free speech.

Or alternatively starting with the principle that no one nation can impose
legal issues on another. Unless you really think that the US government
would accept EU legislation on equal opportunities, working hours, data
protection (etc).

> And I don't like stupid American laws any more than you do.
> We should work together on this stuff,
> not close ourselves off, build walls, run away and hide.

Or possibly deduce that the stupid American laws in question show no sign
of going away in the forseeable future, so our duty as non-Americans is to
challenge that they apply to us. Whereas your duty *as* an American is to
work to change them.

> A free-for-all is not the same as free speech.  Free speech means
> making an active effort to allow all to have a voice.  When one group
> runs roughshod over another, that is not freedom, it's oppression.
> Regardless of class, race, culture, gender, age, or nationality...
> everyone deserves a voice.

And if our voice says "Your laws don't apply here", what then..? Is free
speech only acceptable when it agrees with you?

> Build borders online?  give me a break.

The borders are already there - let's just stop pretending in the fiction
of 'cyberspace' as another place which can conveniently ignore them.

Cheers
Martin

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