[thechat] King Preaches Abstinence to Parading Maidens

John Handelaar john at evolt.org.uk
Thu Sep 12 16:00:01 CDT 2002


% -----Original Message-----
% From: thechat-admin at lists.evolt.org
% [mailto:thechat-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Erika Meyer
% Sent: 12 September 2002 18:26
% To: thechat at lists.evolt.org
% Subject: RE: [thechat] King Preaches Abstinence to Parading Maidens
%
% As for scientific facts, sociobiologists may in fact argue that males
% are evolutionary selected to mate with more women, while women, who
% have more invested in each child, tend to seek mates who will spend
% time and resources assisting them in child rearing.

But, the two problems with that are

a)  *Almost* no human culture any longer has childrearing as
    a primary focus; certainly none of the ones we've discussed
    here so far, and

b)  That sociobiology thing doesn't represent the prevailing
    anthropological viewpoint anymore, and in any case if you go
    back to pre-'civilised' societies there's a compelling (and
    currently more prevalent) counter-viewpoint revolving around
    the shared raising of children within a community.  Given that,
    and assuming that those early women wanted more children, and
    again assuming that childrearing is as important as supposed,
    in fact the gender imperative towards multiple partners lies with
    the female, not the male, since she's repeatedly selecting the
    most 'fit' co-parent over a period of years and that's unlikely
    to be the same male every time.  [pause for breath :-)  ]

% When we start generalizing about behaviors of the HUMAN species we
% are walking into dangerous territory.  Any kind of study of humans
% behavior (anthropology, psychology) tends to be fraught with
% controversy.

Absolutely.   And in this field there's really no such thing as
'scientific fact' at all, since without reliable evidence, there's
no science.

% I don't know about you, but I see tremendous differences in what men
% and women expect and desire in partners.  IN GENERAL.  The special
% thing about humans is that we are very strongly influenced by
% environment... our brains develop a great deal during childhood... so
% our behavior is less instinct-based than that of other creatures.
%
% I think that marriage customs are an attempt to address natural
% sexual tensions between genders, while setting up a good environment
% for child rearing and economic and social stability.

Yup.  And/but as you say, how well those customs adapt over time
is the more interesting issue.  Rigidity, I think both of us agree,
probably doesn't work.  (Actually I reckon that's generally true in
most things, but I digress.)

% I see nothing wrong with the custom of having multiple wives, as Syed
% describes it.  Now in practice, it may not be so ideal... but the
% concept makes sense to me.

I agree with you - except for the presumption of it being the males
who should have the exclusive right to multiple partners.  There's
no obvious sociological reason for it, the strict genetics of the
issue actually demand that it should work the other way around, and
- let's face it - that exclusivity is basically about the relative
power available to men and women, in an antiquated and really-quite
-unpleasant way.

% How our balance of power plays out in important situations... or when
% men and women differ in their position on something... that is
% another story entirely.

Snipped a bunch of stuff I agreed with entirely before this, which
I included only to suggest that it might not be another story entirely,
but rather the exact story under discussion.

Western and Islamic/Hindu/African and Eastern industrial societies
really don't differ as much as they're similar.  People generally
behave between each other in a similar way - the real arguments
occur when people in any one of them try and pretend otherwise and
impose rules (usually religion-based) which don't reflect what
people actually do or want.

<my bias, ignore if you wish>
Of course, all of that probably contributes to the unstoppable
secularisation of civilised societies as the people drift away
from strict observance of religious customs.  Which I think is
a *great* thing, depending of course on how violently the believers
try to impose their will on everyone else.
</bias>

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 8933 1494       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
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