[thechat] Religion

[Syed Zeeshan Haider]

From: "Chris Marsh"
To: <thechat at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: December 17, 2002, Tuesday 8:12 PM
Subject: [thechat] Religion

Chris Marsh,

> So why not contact the publishers of these sites rather than making the
> massive, crass and potentially insulting assumptions that the entire
> list a) reads these sites and b) operates in ignorance of the nature of
> Islam.

Most of them are big organizations and we need organizations to counter them. A
single individual can only mail them and never receive any reply.

> I am certainly aware of the true meaning of the word Jihad.

It's good to know that.

> I'm not
> suggesting that you do this on purpose, but often you appear
> patronising, self absorbed and arrogant.

I would like to see some examples. I have never tried to be so but if you feel
so then it's because, perhaps, you don't like my religious posts or you want to
see my attitude more flexible and secular.

> I am sure that these are not
> traits that a muslim would consciously adopt.

I have never intentionally irritated you. A Muslim is not supposed to irritate
any other human being by any means.
Look, I posted just a link under the subject "Muslims FAQ" just like as I post
other links. Irina needed a Pakistan-centred piece of comment on the provision
of information about Christianity and Judaism. Ashok inquired about the reasons
for which I post religious mails. I replied him in a *little detail*. And that
reply, I think, irritated you.
I began by just posting a link. I did not forced anybody to read that link's
target. I receive many links through the posts of this forum which are not of my
interest. I simply delete them.

> Perhaps you should accept that the membership of this
> particular list is perfectly capable of doing their own research and
> reaching their own conclusions on the subject of religion. I'm sure that
> if someone has a specific question regarding Pakistan and Islam they
> would know where to turn by now :)

I post religious mails only for two reasons:
1.    When somebody comments about Islam and which I consider wrong. I post to
disagree and explain the reasons of my disagreement. I think it's my right to
protect the fame of my religion.
2.    When somebody asks for some answer by replying to my little chit-chat type
of mails.
I have never posted any mail which contained any material which looked like a
scholar's lecture without any invitation.

I post mails about Pakistan only for three reasons:
1.    When somebody comments about Pakistan and which I consider wrong. I post
to disagree and explain the reasons of my disagreement. I think it's my right to
protect the fame of my country.
2.    When somebody asks for some answer by replying to my little chit-chat type
of mails.
3.    When Pakistan comes under some discussion.

> > I am worried about wrong perceptions about Islam and
> > Pakistan. I am worried about that international propaganda
>
> So why keep blathering on about it here? Surely your efforts would be
> better expended in a forum where people demonstrate applied ignorance
> rather than a forum where people are generally informed and open of
> mind.

I do NOT blame anybody here for *applied ignorance*. As I have said earlier
these are the little chit-chat type of mails which unintentionally adopt a
colour of purely religious type. Yes, I am worried and I admit. As I have said
earlier that I have mostly replied to the questions or clarified the issues
where I consider anything written here about Islam misleading.
I have never posted any lengthy mails for preaching Islam. I have found
everybody here very open minded and well informed. Religion is one of many other
topics which come under discussion here. So just consider it merely a topic of
chat.

> > which is going on against Islam and Pakistan. I don't say you
> > have to love my religion but I say don't criticize (referring
> > to propaganda) Islam and Pakistan just because you don't like
>
> Frankly, I'll criticise who and what I please for whatever reason I
> choose. It's called "freedom of speech"[1], and should be preserved at
> all costs.

Agreed! But my freedom of speech allows me to disagree and clarify my side.
Doesn't it?

> I don't ask you to agree with my criticisms or even pay them
> any attention. Have I ever criticised Islam or Pakistan because I "don't
> like them"?

Why are you asking? Have I criticised you for criticising?
My delighted answer to your question is "No".

> Has anyone else on this list?

Unfortunately yes, but I am not seeing that person here any more. He/She
criticized
Quaid-e-Azam (Founder of Pakistan) which we (Pakistanis) consider criticism
on Pakistan. My posts are not the response of that criticism. These are just
parts of that chit-chat for which we come here.

> If you irritate people in
> the name of Allah you are doing your religion no favours regardless of
> the purity of your motives.

I still can't understand, why were you *so much* irritated by my posts as I had
not any intention to do so? Feel free to delete my posts if they irritate you.

> I'll state for the record I have made a conscious and informed decision
> not to follow any organised religion. I don't disbelieve in God, but for
> reasons forthcoming I find Hir irrelevant.

Just a question! You have decided not to follow any organised religion. I hope
there are many others like you in your country. How do the religious leaders of
your family religion (which your parents followed) react to this situation in
your country?

> Comment on this, Syed ;)
>
> God created the universe, ergo God is not within the universe. The
> universe is space-time, ie fourth dimensional. Thus, God must exist in
> the fifth dimension or above. We are three dimensional entities. A two
> dimensional entity would be a plane. Three dimensional entities are more
> complex than two dimensional entities, but we are unable to comprehend a
> two dimensional entity in anything other than mathematical terms.
> Therefore any interaction between us and a two dimensional entity is
> uninformed, thus arbitrary. Thus, God may well interact with us *but* in
> an uninformed manner, thus arbitrarily. This would certainly explain why
> churches fall on orphans, and why God does not meddle in the affairs of
> mortals (free will). IMHO attempting to answer the question "Does God
> exist?" is pointless when the real question should be "Is God
> relevant?". In fact, who cares about God anyway? What did God ever do
> for anyone? Why can't religious zealots ever concentrate on behaving
> appropriately within society not because "God says I should" but because
> it is _The_Right_Thing_To_Do_(tm). Surely in this case even if God
> exists you'll get to heaven anyway, having been a just and virtuous
> individual? Of course certain religious dogma would have you believe
> that you simply won't get to heaven (or whatever bullshit construct you
> wish to believe in) unless you accept that particular religion. Here we
> go back to recruitment. It surprises me that anyone would believe in a
> perfect God that totally misses the paradox of faith being something
> that you cannot learn, yet being a pre-requisite for admittance to
> heaven.

My belief is that religion Islam is for the well being of humanity. But the
offers of reward are made to encourage humans to follow Islam. Islam says that
"God knows about humans completely and more than humans do, therefore, God has
made Islam the best way of living for humans but humans can't realize."
Ali (Prophet Muhammad's cousin and husband of Prophet Muhammad's daughter,
Fatima) is the most prominent scholar of Islam after Prophet Muhammad. He once
said, "I don't offer prayers for acquiring any reward (heaven) but I offer
prayers because Allah deserves that (and it's the right thing to do)".

> Okay, I'll indicate right now that I come here to relax, and religious
> zealots constantly banging on about their religion as if no one else has
> ever bothered to actually find out anything about it irritates the heck
> out of me. Understand: I DO NOT NEED EDUCATING on the subject of *any*
> religion unless I request education. Do not confuse this with a distaste
> for theological and religious discussion. I object to lengthly discourse
> containing about half a sentence-worth of actual information; the
> remainder being generalities backed up by nothing more than your
> enduring paranoia.

I am not educating. I am just telling as I am asked to do.

> This is not an attack on Islam or Pakistan. It is not a personal attack
> on you.

Thanks!

> Personally I find you very agreeable,

Thanks again!

> but I object to your
> bigotry as I would object to bigotry from anyone.

Objection sustained! Don't read my mails if they irritate you.

Thank you my friend. I enjoyed your criticism.

Syed Zeeshan Haider.
http://syedzeeshanhaider.faithweb.com/