[thechat] rationality is not enough (was: New Year's Resolution)

[Joe Crawford]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Madhu Menon wrote:
> >I think spirituality exists but scientists are simply ignoring it.
>
> I doubt it. If spiritual phenomena manifested themselves consistently
> and in some measurable way, we might actually be able to study them.

I'll add that our ability to measure the known universe increases by fits
and starts.

At one time, science doubted the existence of microbes - the advent of the
microscope helped convince more scientists that these impossibly small
objects existed.

it is *possible* that at some point we're going to be able to measure
psychic phenomena at some level. but where we sit in 2003 is that there is
no such thing as psychic phenomena that is reproducable. If we find it, I
would guess the James Randi foundation would be there first:
http://www.randi.org/

> If the Lord stopped acting in "mysterious ways" (wats wit dat?) and just
> made an appearance to clear things up, it would be so much more helpful.
> Instead, we have to depend on accounts from thousands of years back, and
> they didn't even have the Internet back then. ;)

Oh no, the Lord appears all the time to people. But the veracity and
reliability of those reports is highly personal, and highly
UN-reproducable.

This is the provenance of faith. Faith is something you believe. not
something you *reason*.

Now you jokers will say something like "well science just requires you to
have a different kind of faith." To which I respond: horse hockey. Science
is *first* to say that there are limits to what is known.

Example: creation of the universe. So people say big bang, which is
generally agreed to be the way things would have worked. Generally. Some
scientists argue we're not so sure. Some have worked it back to where
there was nothing but vacuum and a flux in energy in the vacuum brought
about the first matter, bringing about the matter which would form the big
bang. So how did that vacuum get there? Well, science doesn't say, does
it? It can't. Beyond a certain point, we must admit that science fails us.
There are limits to our knowledge, and a rationalist must accept this at
some level if he or she buys into rationalism.

To me, in an argument, certainty about "well there is no God" is as
tedious as certainty about "well there is a God" -- neither side can prove
the argument with reason.

At some point, each side has decided for whatever reasons, that there
is/is not a God. There is an essential leap of faith made when one is
certain about something that one has no facts for.

Declaring: there is no god (or any other declaration about phenomena for
which we have no evidence or conflicting evidence) is in fact an act of
faith.

My position is to remain agnostic, and a freethinker. I say that those who
are theist have their points, and those who are athiests have their
points. I'll reserve judgement of other belief systems while I do.


> Science is about discovery. I suppose that scientists would be thrilled
> at the prospect of conclusively proving any of the supposed spiritual
> mysteries that surround us. Think of the fame.

Madhu makes excellent points.

Also, there would be big bucks for FedEx if they could get that
teleportation thing to work.


To me religion covers a different area of inquiry than science. Religion
is explicitly about faith. Science is not interested in what your wants
and hopes are - science wants to deal with things you can measure.

My joy at a sunset -- that feeling -- is in some sense unmeasurable and
unreproducible. To some that exhultance would be evidence that there's
more going on -- that there must be an all-encompassing energy involved,
or a god. But to me, I'll be happy just enjoying the sunset.

My girlfriend asked me the other day -- if I felt a feeling like joy while
attending, say, one of her church meetings -- if I would be likely to
rationalize it away. I admitted that that was probably the case, but I
hope that were I to have a genuinely unexplainable experience - I would
recognize it as such.

But have you ever seen a magician? They make amazing things happen.
Elephants disappear. Women are sawn in half. Objects levitate. The laws of
science seem to not work anymore. This is magic!

Truth is, magic is an artform about hacking our brains - misdirection. If
people could really levitate objects -- let's think here -- wouldn't we
see consumer products that did that? I should think hospital gurneys would
need not have wheels anymore. Why on earth don't the magicians give us the
secret - we have critically ill patients who could use smoother rides down
to the CAT scanner!! But no, magic is as inexplicable as religious
experience, but there are explanations for it.

I'm gonna shut up now...

	Joe