[thechat] A balance of opinion. - Iran

[Tara Cleveland]

Well, Syed, I think you missed my point entirely.

Syed Zeeshan Haider wrote:
> Damn it. It's all rubbish and lie. Iranian women are more free than the woman
> in Turkey. Being personally in contact with Iranians, I do believe that they
>are more free than you can ever imagine.

I don't believe that women in Turkey are considered equal either. I've been
to both Turkey and Egypt and women there are not considered entirely equal
to men. They aren't in the US either. But it is a matter of degrees. I also
don't think you can seriously claim that women in Iran are "more free than
you can imagine" (especially given that you don't know what I'm imagining).
I don't imagine that Iranian women are treated like women in Afghanistan
were. I don't imagine that just because a woman wears the Hijab that means
she is oppressed. 

>It's your media who has brain washed you
> western people against Iran. It's a part of a campaign for building grounds to
> make Iran the next victim of American aggression. Iranians are living in a
> society which is more than 80% Islamic. The theocrats have more power than
> they deserve but they are having very hard time with public as Iranian people
> cannot  tolerate their unreasonable interruption in politics. Iranian
>President Syed Muhammad Khatimi is also trying hard to release his political
>system from theocracy.

That was my point. The US shouldn't use aggression against Iran because it's
working towards solving it's problems internally anyway. There is absolutely
no reason to attack Iran - as far as I can see.

> Iranian women are active in all fields of life even in showbiz and armed
> forces. Islam doesn't allow women to be the fighter members of armed forces as
> it is  the obligation of men, however, women can participate as doctors,
> nurses,  engineers and other fields which restrict them from going to battle
> field as fighting units, like men.

Yes. That's what I saw in Turkey and to a lesser extent in Egypt. Women are
quite free to go to work, travel, get an education etc. In fact, in Iran
more women than men are passing University entrance exams. But there are
still women whose human rights are trampled upon. Stoning deaths are not
humane. I know that the North American media plays up the occurrence of this
type of punishment, but the fact that it's legal in some parts of the world
is abhorrent to me. I don't think it's "equal" or promotes "freedom".
Divorce laws in Iran are also not equal.

> If you think that their Hijab is against their freedom then
> what about the partly European country Turkey. Are women free there? Turkish
> women want to practice Hijab but their government is forcing them otherwise.
> What about France, where girls are not allowed to use scarf as Hijab in
> educational institutes. Remember that Hijab is a freedom for women. It is
> their freedom from the men's eyes of lust.

I have absolutely nothing against the Hijab. It happens that I don't think
that it works - I think that men should be responsible enough to control
their own lust... but that's me and my culture. I have absolutely no right
to dictate how anyone else decides to dress or what they should believe. If
it works for Muslim women to wear the Hijab then "more power to them" says
I. 

I think it's disgusting that Muslim women aren't being allowed to wear
Hijabs in schools and in some workplaces. It's completely unfair and unjust.
I cannot see any reason for it.

Even though I don't believe in God, I think modesty and respect for others
is admirable. In fact, when in Egypt I visited several mosques. I was the
only western woman there not asked to wear the Hijabs that they lend out to
tourists. That's because I was dressed appropriately to begin with. I know
that when I visit another country that has a different culture and different
beliefs I should respect it and act accordingly. It is disrespectful to walk
around in skimpy clothing (although I did it in the tourist resorts and on
the beach where it's accepted and expected that tourists will dress
differently). 

AFAIK, the Hijab is also about modesty before God and it applies to both
women and men - but with different rules about what to wear. My husband also
consistently wore long pants and shirts that went down to his elbows to also
be in accordance with the customs of dress (not easy in the heat of an
Egyptian summer!) You can see a photo of me in the Valley of the Kings here:
http://www.taracleveland.com/personal/photos/honeymoonpics/pages/taravalleyo
fkings.htm

I wish I had the proper pins and a proper head scarf because it kept falling
off!

>In Iran women are not supposed to hide
> their face. It's optional there. They are allowed to get any type of
> education.
> They are free to act in movies and dramas. They are free to work in any field
> they want.
> Men and women are equal as humans but they do not share their desires, their
> duties in society and their obligations.

Well, then that's not entirely equal. It's different roles for men and
women.
 
>> If you actually change the opinion and outlook of the majority of
>> the people, rather than forcing change on them, it's more likely to last and
>> to affect real change.
> 
> Who the hell are you to change their opinion? Why don't you let them decide
> with
> their own wisdom?

What I meant was "if you wait and let change happen within Iran, and the
opinion and outlook of the majority of the people changes, then that change
is more likely to last and to affect real change than invasion or military
action". That's what I was referring to when I said "if you change". Sorry,
I know that's completely not clear from what I wrote.

I can't change anyone's opinion without them using their own wisdom to do
so. I think it would be better to open a dialogue with the people of Iran,
with the women and the men about their culture and ours (dialogue being
something that goes both ways). The "west" needs to learn more about the
middle east and vice versa. From real people talking to each other - not
from the media. I think that's much preferable to bombing the hell out of
another country - don't you?

>Why are you so much intended to interrupt the matters of
> other
> countries as if you are living in a Paradise where there are no problems, no
> griefs, no sorrows, no natural or unnatural deaths? Why don't you keep your
> nose
> in your own country and matters?

No, I fight for women's rights here too. But we weren't talking about that.
I'd like to also express solidarity to women in Iran who are working to
improve their situation - but I do believe that it's up to them to work
towards it and change their society - if that's what they want.

Also, if the US extends it's aggression to invade Iran, then I think we
seriously risk WWIII and that will affect us all. So, that's partially why I
stick my nose in.

> Such way of thinking, which you demonstrate, leads to aggression. When one
> cannot convince the other, it results in his/her anger and frustration. You
> want to impose your culture all over the world.

No I don't. At all. I want human rights to be accepted and protected all
over the world. That's it. Period. And I don't think wars help human rights.
The US argument for "liberating" Iraqis is BS as far as I'm concerned. All
they are doing is changing the regime - not liberating. You can't "liberate"
someone by force.

> In a CNN program, the host was saying
> very proudly, "From New York to Shanghai, people are seen in the same dress".
> USA government is already using its media extensively to brain wash its
> public. It has done its best to spread its media all over the world in many
> ways just  to paint all societies in American colour. It seems that if a
> country refuses to accept American culture, then American governments begin to
> build a ground to impose it by force.

I agree. Here in Canada, we're a mouse sleeping next to an elephant. The
mouse being Canadian culture and the elephant being American culture. We
deal with the spread of American culture every day. This is a massive issue
in Canadian politics. It's also very difficult to differentiate Canadian and
American culture because we are so close, geographically, economically and
culturally. 
 
> PS: In above reply, "You" stands for the USA, NOT Tara personally.

Thanks for clarifying - I thought I'd reply anyway.

Tara