From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 3 16:20:24 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 3 16:20:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] Email Probs ? Message-ID: <006801c14c51$7274be40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hey Folks ..... Anyone else receiving problems with thelist today? I haven't received any new messages from 10:20 this morning. It's been a quiet day .. according to the archives, I'm missing 12-15 messages. Michele From poojie at dccnet.com Wed Oct 3 16:26:49 2001 From: poojie at dccnet.com (Poojie) Date: Wed Oct 3 16:26:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Email Probs ? References: <006801c14c51$7274be40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <005101c14c52$89cbab20$b7b6b440@ZDEVEL> > Anyone else receiving problems with thelist today? I haven't received any > new messages from 10:20 this morning. It's been a quiet day .. according to > the archives, I'm missing 12-15 messages. Ditto. From mail at richardinfo.com Thu Oct 4 03:15:40 2001 From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett) Date: Thu Oct 4 03:15:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles Message-ID: <001401c14cac$257fc160$7ab6fea9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> Hi, As I noticed you wanted a little more feedback on the articles advertised under "headlines" (a good idea BTW) I decided to vote - good or bad - when a new article arrived. I was - so far - not successful. The process seems unnecessarily complicated. Why do I have to login? Scared of people cheating? Does my normal "theList" name and password not work here? (it doesn't seem too) if not - why not? Presuming it does work, the "There was an error logging you into evolt. ..." page doesn't work. I know you want to take this seriously, but it would be seriously refreshing to be able to leave a comment, vote etc, without the need to get a password and login - there's too much of that already. Just thoughts... Richard. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 05:49:46 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 05:49:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <001401c14cac$257fc160$7ab6fea9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> Message-ID: >I know you want to take this seriously, but it would be seriously refreshing >to be able to leave a comment, vote etc, without the need to get a password >and login - there's too much of that already. Unfortunately, no login means no identification of who commented on that article... which means no accountability. This is a community, and one of the things you need in a community is accountability. If you don't have that, you open yourself up to abuse and comments like "this article sucks" with no reasoning, etc. However, if you sign up with the evolt site, and then log in with the "Remember Me" option, you won't have to login again from that computer... Thanks for the feedback, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Thu Oct 4 06:05:23 2001 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Thu Oct 4 06:05:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? Message-ID: Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- It seems to have disappeared - it did move from a normal place on the homepage to a sidebar, but now isn't anywhere. Cheers Martin --------------------- End of message text -------------------- This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Oct 4 07:44:27 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu Oct 4 07:44:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <001401c14cac$257fc160$7ab6fea9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> from "Richard Bennett" at Oct 04, 2001 10:11:15 AM Message-ID: <200110041248.GAA00777@alice.monkeyland.ca> My personal opinion is that you want people to login to lend some credibility and responsibility to the ratings and the comments. I think we all want good quality ratings and comments and not to get the /. "anonymous coward" type troll postings. Allowing you to login, I think, allows you to change your rating and your comments in case you change your mind later. I don't think your thelist name and password will work on www.evolt.org. The appications are separate, and as far as I know, the user account information is stored in two totally different ways. At one point, I think we did sync them manually but it is not an on-going process. Perhaps one that should be re-visited. What do other people think of anonymous ratings and comments? Would this problem be a non-problem if thelist account information was the same as the www.evolt.org account? Dean Richard Bennett writes: > As I noticed you wanted a little more feedback on the articles > advertised under "headlines" (a good idea BTW) I decided to vote - > good or bad - when a new article arrived. > I was - so far - not successful. > The process seems unnecessarily complicated. > > Why do I have to login? > Scared of people cheating? > > Does my normal "theList" name and password not work here? (it > doesn't seem too) if not - why not? > > Presuming it does work, the "There was an error logging you into > evolt. ..." page doesn't work. > > I know you want to take this seriously, but it would be seriously > refreshing to be able to leave a comment, vote etc, without the need > to get a password and login - there's too much of that already. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 07:58:57 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 07:58:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] Archives for this list Message-ID: <003901c14cd4$6caadfc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hate to say it ... but the archives aren't working for thesite. It didn't restart in October. There haven't been too many messages though. I was just checking if my message from yesterday made it to the archives at least. Michele (P.S. how much ya wanna bet Dan forgot to leave instructions to give the Major a couple beers each night .. no wonder he's acting up so much.) From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 08:33:22 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 08:33:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? References: Message-ID: <004a01c14cd9$33bb1f40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Martin, ----- Original Message ----- From: | | It seems to have disappeared - it did move from a normal place on the | homepage to a sidebar, but now isn't anywhere. Yup, same result on teo. I dunno why that is though. Jeff, was a decision made not to have jobs show on the front page but only in the category? I can't remember... Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 08:42:09 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 08:42:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] Article and Comment Notifications Message-ID: <005601c14cda$6de39f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Folks, Well, now this is very odd .. but I received both article approval/received notifications, as well as, notification for a comment (Someone is talking), on teo. So, now we have to figure out why its working on teo but not weo? I know teo and weo are not in synch at the moment .. but the bug fixes Jeff did and the modifications Dan made should have nothing to do with the notifications coming from weo. (Unless, of course, someone else's memory is better than mine.) Mich From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 08:49:37 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 08:49:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles Message-ID: <01c14cdb$7ae596a0$c64c149a@rudy> >What do other people think of anonymous ratings and comments? -1 > Would this problem be a non-problem if thelist account information > was the same as the www.evolt.org account? alleviated, perhaps, but i see them as unrelated issues a universal evolt userid is somewhere on the list of things to do copying one user table into another is a good interim strategy until the permanent solution (single user table), however, we would be wrong to copy without plenty of explanation and warning to evolt members and subscribers and what to do about userids that are in one place now but not the other? the synchronization problems are horrific consequently the copying does not happen frequently, and the separate tables fall further and further out of sync actually, i may be over-simplifying -- i don't know how list subscriber users are stored, they may not actually be in an oracle table.... anyhow, the objective should be only one table if i were king of the world, developers would never be allowed to create a second copy!! which is why i'm not king of the world see, in real life, these things do happen -- e.g. an email to subscribe at example.com can be processed by a listserv which keeps its own file of subscribers, and you'd be nuts to try to patch the listserv software to write into an oracle table ;o) From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 09:00:03 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:00:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? Message-ID: <01c14cdd$2097fec0$c64c149a@rudy> >| It seems to have disappeared - it did move from a normal place on the >| homepage to a sidebar, but now isn't anywhere. > >Yup, same result on teo. I dunno why that is though. what are you guys talking about? jobs is in the dropdown list are you saying your job article disappeared, martin? that could just be the html version of the home page -- perhaps it didn't get updated yet, the purpose of the html version is to avoids querying the database for the home page (which gets by far the most hits) but i dunno how this html version gets created (it's another one of those mysterious things that happen on the server by magic, and i can barely spell cron, although i understand what it does) rudolf claybrook From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 09:08:43 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:08:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? References: <01c14cdd$2097fec0$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: <007401c14cde$51189220$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Rudy, ----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy" | >| It seems to have disappeared - it did move from a normal place on the | >| homepage to a sidebar, but now isn't anywhere. | > | >Yup, same result on teo. I dunno why that is though. | | what are you guys talking about? jobs is in the dropdown list | | are you saying your job article disappeared, martin? Jobs are not appearing on the home page .. even if you wait a while for the home page to be reprocessed. They are only appearing in the drop down category. I know FAQ don't appear on the front page, but I'm not sure why jobs are not either. Mich From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 09:28:34 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:28:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com > > It [jobs category] seems to have disappeared - it did > move from a normal place on the homepage to a sidebar, > but now isn't anywhere. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it's still accessible from the dropdown navigation. http://www.evolt.org/category/index.html?tid=23 i don't know why the last 5 aren't in the sidebar though. perhaps they're old enough to not show up anymore (the most recent is one year ago). thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 09:34:18 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:34:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? References: Message-ID: <007b01c14ce1$e4395640$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Huh? Now I'm confused .. what side bar ? (obviously since its not there I have no clue what ya talking about). And the jobs aren't a year old .. Martin just posted one today? Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | martin, | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com | > | > It [jobs category] seems to have disappeared - it did | > move from a normal place on the homepage to a sidebar, | > but now isn't anywhere. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | it's still accessible from the dropdown navigation. | | http://www.evolt.org/category/index.html?tid=23 | | i don't know why the last 5 aren't in the sidebar though. perhaps they're | old enough to not show up anymore (the most recent is one year ago). | From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 09:39:26 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:39:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: .jeff > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com > > > > It [jobs category] seems to have disappeared - it did > > move from a normal place on the homepage to a sidebar, > > but now isn't anywhere. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i don't know why the last 5 aren't in the sidebar though. > perhaps they're old enough to not show up anymore (the > most recent is one year ago). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< first off, i'm a dork for replying to my own post. second, i'm even more of a dork for looking at yesterday's date on the top item in jobs and thinking it's a year old. anyway, don't know what to tell you about the sidebar. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 09:53:42 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:53:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? In-Reply-To: <004a01c14cd9$33bb1f40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > Jeff, was a decision made not to have jobs show on the > front page but only in the category? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the decision was made to display them in a sidebar only when this version of thesite was rolled out. they've been in the sidebar practically since the beginning. i don't understand why they're not showing up there now. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 09:55:15 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 09:55:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? In-Reply-To: <01c14cdd$2097fec0$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > that could just be the html version of the home page -- > perhaps it didn't get updated yet, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< actually, we're not using an html version of the home page anymore. the only reason it takes a bit for the site to update for you is because the queries get cached. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 10:44:06 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 10:44:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? Message-ID: <01c14ce8$db1b2f00$c64c149a@rudy> > actually, we're not using an html version of the home page anymore. > the only reason it takes a bit for the site to update for you is because > the queries get cached. thanks wish i could say the same for my memory... r From djc at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 11:44:15 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 11:44:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] evolt list probs.. Message-ID: <3BBC8F2A.9080905@members.evolt.org> hola fellow evolters - a couple people have contacted me about some problems with evolt list mail - things like double posts showing up, no posts at all showing up, etc.. sorry its been kinda wacky (Muchas gracias to matt and dean for doing a great job BTW), but i've been on tour in mexico for the last week and a couple things just got a bit wacky around here during that time. most of the problemos that sprouted up should be fixed now, so... ..if you notice anything out of the ordinary from this point on, please let me know offlist and i'll look into it :) Hasta luego :) .djc. From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Oct 4 11:55:16 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu Oct 4 11:55:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <01c14cdb$7ae596a0$c64c149a@rudy> from "rudy" at Oct 04, 2001 09:50:08 AM Message-ID: <200110041659.KAA01537@alice.monkeyland.ca> Which is exactly the problem. I don't think that MG uses any database other than its own flat-file or DBM-type database. Tying MG to Oracle couples the applications together too closely for independent use. You end up with a highly-coupled and loosely cohesive system, which in terms of software engineering (actually that was the software engineering term), is a bad thing. Dean rudy writes: > see, in real life, these things do happen -- e.g. an email to > subscribe at example.com can be processed by a listserv which keeps its > own file of subscribers, and you'd be nuts to try to patch the > listserv software to write into an oracle table From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 12:01:19 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:01:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles Message-ID: <01c14cf6$6699b620$c64c149a@rudy> >Which is exactly the problem. I don't think that MG uses any database >other than its own flat-file or DBM-type database. Tying MG to Oracle >couples the applications together too closely for independent use. well, yes, and therefore i wouldn't do it that way ;o) instead, i would still go with the one single user table in the database, and require that it be updated via the site for *all* application uses then copy user data out as frequently as practical, e.g. run an overnight cron (if that's the way to do it) to extract all the subscriptions to the various lists, and overwrite (that's another technical term) all the individual subscription flat files that MG thinks it's maintaining... > You end up with a highly-coupled and loosely cohesive system i hear they make a cream for that From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 12:17:42 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:17:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: <01c14cdb$7ae596a0$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: <3BBC9702.6090501@starkmedia.com> the user information for thelist(s) isn't stored in oracle, but in a berkeley style DB. in all honesty, i don't ever see the MG and main evolt user information being sycned... two seperate applications that do two vastly different things :) that said, getting our user stuff synced and a singular login for all evolt *websites except l.e.o* is a high priority for next weekend.. i don't see having a username/password for *.evolt.org being different for the one to sign up for thelist as a huge issue.. .djc. rudy wrote: > actually, i may be over-simplifying -- i don't know how > list subscriber users are stored, they may not actually be > in an oracle table.... > > anyhow, the objective should be only one table > > if i were king of the world, developers would never > be allowed to create a second copy!! From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 12:23:30 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:23:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: <01c14cf6$6699b620$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: <3BBC985E.7010406@starkmedia.com> rudy wrote: >>Which is exactly the problem. I don't think that MG uses any database >>other than its own flat-file or DBM-type database. Tying MG to Oracle >>couples the applications together too closely for independent use. >> > > well, yes, and therefore i wouldn't do it that way ;o) > > instead, i would still go with the one single user table in the database, > and require that it be updated via the site for *all* application uses > > then copy user data out as frequently as practical, e.g. run an overnight > cron (if that's the way to do it) to extract all the subscriptions to the > various lists, and overwrite (that's another technical term) all the > individual subscription flat files that MG thinks it's maintaining... problem with that is that theres more information in MG's files than in the www.evolt.org DB user tables. examples: is a user(djc for example) on the digest mode or regular mode for thelist? if the digest mode, plain text or multipart/mime? do they get copies of their own posts? do they wan't their email address hidden when they send messages? are they nomail? many things you can see that are specific for the particular application. theres also the many things specific to logging in to the evolt website that MG could really care less about, if you know what i'm saying :) .djc. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 12:23:53 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:23:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] Article and Comment Notifications In-Reply-To: <005601c14cda$6de39f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: Michele, teo is on a totally different machine than weo, so, testing teo would only help test whether the code has been changed to not send email notifactions. It more likely has to do with the server's software or a setting somewhere (mail queue's can be turned off (used to be off on teo), but i dunno why that would have happened). thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com On Oct 4, Michele Foster had something to say about [thesite] Article and... >Folks, > >Well, now this is very odd .. but I received both article approval/received >notifications, as well as, notification for a comment (Someone is talking), >on teo. > >So, now we have to figure out why its working on teo but not weo? > >I know teo and weo are not in synch at the moment .. but the bug fixes Jeff >did and the modifications Dan made should have nothing to do with the >notifications coming from weo. (Unless, of course, someone else's memory is >better than mine.) From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 12:26:31 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:26:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >first off, i'm a dork for replying to my own post. > >second, i'm even more of a dork for looking at yesterday's date on the top >item in jobs and thinking it's a year old. anyway, don't know what to tell >you about the sidebar. im not in a position to verify this right now, but i seem to remember that the call to include the jobs sidebar code in sidebar.cfm was commented out.. and this isn't a recent change either. this was in the code cut i got from teo for feo a long time ago. hth, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 12:27:52 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:27:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: <01c14cf6$6699b620$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: <000801c14cfa$1e228bc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks, I want to add a few comments to this thread. First of all, this is part of the unified log in .. which I'm *really* hoping we'll come up with a solution at CodeFest in a couple of weeks. My thoughts, from a user's perspective, our log in and list subscriptions *sucks* big time. I've always thought this. I was a member of thelist for almost a year before I realized I wasn't a member on weo. Anyway, we know there's a problem. I agree with Rudy that one centralized user table (in oracle) would be beneficial for use on all web sites. I also understand that the Major (software that runs all lists, for those that don't know) needs its own lists. However, why can't we have one central log in place where all the information is processed at the same time? In other words, all subscription requests get processed by the same form, regardless of where the user logs in from (i.e. independent of which web site the user subscribes from and which list they subscribe to). Meaning the user page would contain the following: UserID, PW, Subscribe to the various evolt lists (thelist, thesite, thechat [plus admin ones for admin privs.]. This page would be the same regardless of where one clicks to Join or Subscribe. On this page, we'd need to: (1) deal with the subscribe info to weo, i.e. insert info into the oracle user table and (2) subscribe/unsubscribe to the various lists, i.e. send the necessary commands to the Major to handle the requests. The above assumes that the same user table is used for all websites (i.e. weo, feo and aeo (*almost* this isn't synched at the moment, tho, I think it should/could be by allowing an additional Priv level, i.e. 3.5 and above have access to aeo)). So, the question becomes .. can we effectively program ONE web page to handle all of the list sub/unsub information, as well as log info required for the sites? Also, is it a good idea to automatically "Join" a user to weo (effectively all web sites)? Where/How could we handle the various list options so that the user only sees one page with all their information, yet we still need to send the appropriate commands to the Major? Ok, enough from me... some things to think about. Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 12:32:49 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:32:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <3BBC9702.6090501@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > the user information for thelist(s) isn't stored in > oracle, but in a berkeley style DB. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< still a flat-file database though. shouldn't be too difficult to have coldfusion write it out. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > in all honesty, i don't ever see the MG and main evolt > user information being sycned... two seperate > applications that do two vastly different things :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ... with common sets of data that are shared between the two. in all honest, i don't see a reason to not try to sync them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > that said, getting our user stuff synced and a singular > login for all evolt *websites except l.e.o* is a high > priority for next weekend.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. that is an important issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i don't see having a username/password for *.evolt.org > being different for the one to sign up for thelist as > a huge issue.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it's always been a source of confusion. the bigger our membership gets, the more confusing it will be. i think it is an issue -- big enough to do something about. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 12:32:56 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:32:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] Article and Comment Notifications References: <005601c14cda$6de39f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BBC9A93.8060500@starkmedia.com> sorry i'm taking these all way out of sync.. this is happening cus sendmail is cool with accepting the email from test.evolt.org because its the same machine that runs sendmail. leo.evolt.org is what CF on weo and teo use to relay their CFMAIL stuff through, and sendmail on l.e.o is for some reason not accepting mail from weo since i upgraded sendmail a while back.. i just gave sendmail a nice swift kick in the ass and commented on mccreaths article on the live site and the notification went through.. sorry it took so long :) .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Folks, > > Well, now this is very odd .. but I received both article approval/received > notifications, as well as, notification for a comment (Someone is talking), > on teo. > > So, now we have to figure out why its working on teo but not weo? > > I know teo and weo are not in synch at the moment .. but the bug fixes Jeff > did and the modifications Dan made should have nothing to do with the > notifications coming from weo. (Unless, of course, someone else's memory is > better than mine.) From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 12:37:56 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:37:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <3BBC985E.7010406@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > rudy wrote: > > > instead, i would still go with the one single user > > table in the database, and require that it be > > updated via the site for *all* application uses > > > > then copy user data out as frequently as practical, > > e.g. run an overnight cron (if that's the way to do > > it) to extract all the subscriptions to the various > > lists, and overwrite (that's another technical term) > > all the individual subscription flat files that MG > > thinks it's maintaining... > > problem with that is that theres more information in > MG's files than in the www.evolt.org DB user tables. > examples: is a user(djc for example) on the digest > mode or regular mode for thelist? if the digest mode, > plain text or multipart/mime? do they get copies of > their own posts? do they wan't their email address > hidden when they send messages? are they nomail? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no problem. add database architecture to the oracle database to support these sorts of features. tie them to user records. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > theres also the many things specific to logging in to > the evolt website that MG could really care less about, > if you know what i'm saying :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< those things you simply don't write out to the flat-file database. basically, for the nightly update, you simply query for the information that the major is looking for and write out those flat-files accordingly. i really don't see this being that difficult a thing to implement. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 12:41:12 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:41:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: Message-ID: <3BBC9C84.6040705@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >>the user information for thelist(s) isn't stored in >>oracle, but in a berkeley style DB. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > still a flat-file database though. shouldn't be too difficult to have > coldfusion write it out. berkeley style != flat file. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>i don't see having a username/password for *.evolt.org >>being different for the one to sign up for thelist as >>a huge issue.. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > it's always been a source of confusion. the bigger our membership gets, the > more confusing it will be. i think it is an issue -- big enough to do > something about. ya its always been a source of confusion. there was a time when i had the signup page for thelist *did* insert a persons info into the Oracle tables. if you sort through usernames, you can see these people that signed up for evolt through that form because their usernames are typically their email address' they used to sign up to thelist with. for some reason, records in oracle started getting corrupted because of how i was inserting them(this goes back to the userpriv vs. priv confusion) the files to do it that way are still here, and i'll make it a point to work on them that way again next weekend. my point here is i'm down with syncing usernames/emails/passwords between the two and keeping them in oracle for easy access - *at the time someone signs up* i'm very much not for hooking MG into oracle in any way shape or form at this point, because frankley i don't have the skills to do that.. hopefully that all makes sense, sorry for my shittier than usual english .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 12:45:09 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:45:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: Message-ID: <3BBC9D70.3070204@starkmedia.com> perhaps i'm being less than clear about the integration between MG and Oracle there isn't any. period theres no point in putting all these columns into Oracle if they're never going to be used by the program(MG) that uses them .djc. .jeff wrote: >>problem with that is that theres more information in >>MG's files than in the www.evolt.org DB user tables. >>examples: is a user(djc for example) on the digest >>mode or regular mode for thelist? if the digest mode, >>plain text or multipart/mime? do they get copies of >>their own posts? do they wan't their email address >>hidden when they send messages? are they nomail? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > no problem. add database architecture to the oracle database to support > these sorts of features. tie them to user records. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 12:58:06 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 12:58:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <3BBC9C84.6040705@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > berkeley style != flat file. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ok, please clarify then. does the major use a berkeley db or a berkeley *style* db? the little bit of research i've done this morning suggests that berkeley style db's are indeed flat-files. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > for some reason, records in oracle started getting > corrupted because of how i was inserting them(this > goes back to the userpriv vs. priv confusion) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< correct. even that approach was flawed though. if the user went to thelist subscription management page they ended up changing the major's record for their subscription, but that didn't change the information on thesite with regard to their subscription. if it's to be done right, the master data has to be stored in one place. working out a process so the slave data (the major's database) can talk to the master data in a scheduled format is the important piece to making that work. i doubt the major himself needs to be involved in that process. more than likely it's simply a script that queries from the oracle tables and performs inserts, updates, and deletes in the slave data. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > the files to do it that way are still here, and i'll > make it a point to work on them that way again next > weekend. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< as i've already said, i don't think the solution we had before is the right way to go about solving this problem. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > my point here is i'm down with syncing usernames/emails/ > passwords between the two and keeping them in oracle for > easy access - *at the time someone signs up* ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< in order for it to be effective and not cause confusion it must always reflect the latest bit of information, not just when the user signs up initially. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i'm very much not for hooking MG into oracle in any way > shape or form at this point, because frankley i don't > have the skills to do that.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< nobody is saying we should hook the major into oracle. we're simply saying we should have a way to sync the data. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 13:00:54 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 13:00:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <3BBC9D70.3070204@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > perhaps i'm being less than clear about the integration > between MG and Oracle > > there isn't any. period ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no shit. that's the whole point of this conversation. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > theres no point in putting all these columns into > Oracle if they're never going to be used by the > program(MG) that uses them ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, nobody is suggesting that the major should use (directly) the data in tables in an oracle database. however, creating a mechanism that runs as a scheduled process to update the major's data store from the data stored in the oracle database is the goal and would result in the integration we're looking for. the actual workings of the major wouldn't change at all. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 13:57:16 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 13:57:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: Message-ID: <3BBCAE58.3070808@starkmedia.com> rock on then.. i know how things like this happen, but i don't want to get too far from the more important parent issue here; unified logins for the range of *.e.o sites. .djc. .jeff wrote: > again, nobody is suggesting that the major should use (directly) the data in > tables in an oracle database. however, creating a mechanism that runs as a > scheduled process to update the major's data store from the data stored in > the oracle database is the goal and would result in the integration we're > looking for. the actual workings of the major wouldn't change at all. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 4 14:37:51 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:37:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. Message-ID: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> Confirmed for codefest( http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001 ) next weekend, I have: Me, Jeremy A., Michele F., Matt W, Jeremey S, Greg S, Joshua O., Russ J., Miriam F. for a total of 9 people.. the only tenative people that I know of are Jeff, Rudy, and Hugh correct? Rudy/Jeff - is it safe for me to assume that if we don't hear from you by Monday, you wont be making it?? i just need to get the hotels in order and start matching up our talent with the List Of Things To Do gracias,, .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 14:52:45 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:52:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. In-Reply-To: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > Jeff - is it safe for me to assume that if we don't > hear from you by Monday, you wont be making it?? i > just need to get the hotels in order and start > matching up our talent with the List Of Things To Do ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i won't be able to make it. the baby seems to be ahead of schedule and with my luck he'd start on his journey out while i was back there. sorry, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From joshua at alphashop.com Thu Oct 4 15:02:41 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Thu Oct 4 15:02:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <0ec401c14d10$c5f22200$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> :) Count me out too... Stateside military duty calls. -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. : Confirmed for codefest( http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001 ) : next weekend, I have: : : Me, Jeremy A., Michele F., Matt W, Jeremey S, Greg S, Joshua O., Russ : J., Miriam F. : : for a total of 9 people.. the only tenative people that I know of are : Jeff, Rudy, and Hugh correct? : : Rudy/Jeff - is it safe for me to assume that if we don't hear from you : by Monday, you wont be making it?? i just need to get the hotels in : order and start matching up our talent with the List Of Things To Do : : gracias,, : : .djc. From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 15:20:35 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 15:20:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. Message-ID: <01c14d12$4da39200$c64c149a@rudy> count me out too no job, no money, no trip no builtin babysitter now, either i'll be around on the irc channel, though.... rudy From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 15:42:18 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 15:42:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. In-Reply-To: <01c14d12$4da39200$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: this, of course, means i get to smack you around a bit this weekend. why not just hitch a ride back with me and we'll head up to Milwaukee together? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com On Oct 4, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] codefest.. next... >count me out too > >no job, no money, no trip > >no builtin babysitter now, either > > >i'll be around on the irc channel, though.... > > >rudy From mail at richardinfo.com Thu Oct 4 18:03:53 2001 From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett) Date: Thu Oct 4 18:03:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: <3BBCAE58.3070808@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <017c01c14d28$41fb1890$7ab6fea9@wwwv7zwbf035xj> Another way to approach this thing would be to leave the back-end as it is, and to bring the two sign-up pages into one. I originally signed up to the list, and was not aware that there was another sign-up section.. the way it is done here is fine: http://www.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=signup You just enter your info once, and choose to sign-up to the list if you want too. It just needs an "edit your account" button to change your list options. this page seems redundant to me: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist Also, on the main evolt page, the "Login" button is prominent enough, the "join" hyperlink isn't. Just a second button beside "Login" would be much clearer. A few ideas from a user-perspective. Richard. From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 20:26:26 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 4 20:26:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <3BBC9702.6090501@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Firstly, thanks to Richard for throwing in his POV. It's exactly what this list thrives on; a fresh perspective is always useful. From Dan: > i don't see having a username/password for *.evolt.org being different for > the one to sign up for thelist as a huge issue.. I do, and I agree with Michele. For now, ignoring the technical implementation, it would be far better to have a single login/preferences page for everything evolt.org. That is, something which handled sign-up to various lists, the settings for each, site settings for *EO, etc. I don't think that Michele and Richard are the only people who've found the process frustrating, or have not even realised that their list membership != site membership. That said, I don't really think that allowing anonymous comments is a great idea. I'm not so concrete on disallowing anonymous ratings though. I think we potentially miss out on a lot of possible ratings. Many people who find a single article via a search engine, or link from another list/site are unlikely to have the inclination to sign-up just to rate an article. It'd be cool to be able to cater for these people easily, and allowing anonymous ratings might be the best way to accomplish this. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 20:40:24 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 20:40:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm not so concrete on disallowing anonymous ratings though. I think we >potentially miss out on a lot of possible ratings. Many people who find a >single article via a search engine, or link from another list/site are >unlikely to have the inclination to sign-up just to rate an article. It'd be >cool to be able to cater for these people easily, and allowing anonymous >ratings might be the best way to accomplish this. this idea isn't new... how are you going to stop multiple ratings from the same person? if a person changes their mind, say, after learning the language being used in the article, how can they change their rating? just rate again? should they rate a 5 instead of a 4 because they rated it originally a 3 and the to balance it at a 4 they need to rate it a 5? ick^3^2^2, my friend. thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 4 20:59:34 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 4 20:59:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles Message-ID: <01c14d41$a954bb40$6447149a@rudy> > if a person changes their mind, ... how can they > change their rating? just rate again? yes, that's the way is was supposed to be can't swear it works that way there should be a uniqueness constraint on the combination of userid/articleid in the table that holds user ratings can't swear that's there either, until i go back and check all the table definitions which i plan to do before codefest, so you can all work from the same up-to-date diagram... From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 21:09:14 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 21:09:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: <01c14d41$a954bb40$6447149a@rudy> Message-ID: On Oct 4, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] voting for articles >> if a person changes their mind, ... how can they >> change their rating? just rate again? > >yes, that's the way is was supposed to be > >can't swear it works that way er, i meant an anon rater. they'd have to vote a second time, not re-vote (as in, change their previous vote. >up-to-date diagram... HAHAHAHAH! Oh. er... cool. ;-) -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 4 21:09:59 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 4 21:09:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <002d01c14d43$0f6af560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Dan... The only other tentative person left is Adrian .. who will let us know next week I think? Oh, and Hugh Blair is still tentative. What about Mark (mnickel) ? Hotel required for: Me, Matt, Jeremy A and possibly Adrian, Hugh and Mark. Are you and Jenn staying at the hotel with us? or at least you? Updating the file now. Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | Me, Jeremy A., Michele F., Matt W, Jeremey S, Greg S, Joshua O., Russ | J., Miriam F. | From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 21:22:22 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 4 21:22:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > how are you going to stop multiple ratings from the same person? How do we stop that now? Hint: we don't. (Note: I'm saying that allowing anonymous ratings could be a good idea and would address particular issues. I'm well aware of the subsequent issues it raises. I'm not, at this stage, putting my 'vote' in either box.) Your assumption is that people will attempt multiple ratings (which is fair enough). My suggestion would be that we could discourage this in the name of fairness and honesty. We could also understand that ratings, however nice and useful, are not insanely critical. We would weigh up: more ratings, lower purity vs few ratings, higher purity Obviously, our current situation does *not* guarantee purity, nor do anonymous ratings necessarily lead to a lowered purity (that is, more junk ratings). I would not expect much variation in purity level, but would definitely appreciate the increase in ratings. > if a person changes their mind, say, after learning the language being > used in the article, how can they change their rating? just rate > again? should they rate a 5 instead of a 4 because they rated it > originally a 3 and the to balance it at a 4 they need to rate it a 5? On-the-fly, one-time registration. Many forums handle this quite effectively in this way. We could cater for someone who only wants to provide a rating by asking for a name/email/rating. An email introducing the wider "services" of evolt.org could then be mailed out, along with a random password. We could optionally cookie them so they're logged in next time they return. They could potentially enter a bullshit email address and then a junk rating, but they can do that now. *shrug* isaac From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 21:36:48 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 21:36:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 5, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] voting for articles >> how are you going to stop multiple ratings from the same person? > >How do we stop that now? > >Hint: we don't. per user account we do. and that's really all we can do. >My suggestion would be that we could discourage this in the name of fairness >and honesty. The honor system is nice. but as we start creating more and more incentive to create good content for evolt (average total rating, cubes, etc.), there's the side effect of competition which could pursuade someone to pump up their own article. >We could also understand that ratings, however nice and useful, >are not insanely critical. We would weigh up: > > more ratings, lower purity > >vs > > few ratings, higher purity so, now we're encouraging fewer ratings? >Obviously, our current situation does *not* guarantee purity, nor do >anonymous ratings necessarily lead to a lowered purity (that is, more junk >ratings). hmmm... >I would not expect much variation in purity level, but would definitely >appreciate the increase in ratings. I disagree. Unless, of course, people are already creating junk users to do this. >They could potentially enter a bullshit email address and then a junk >rating, but they can do that now. *shrug* to be fair, the system discourages this by the way its set up. sure, it can happen, but it's less of a temptation than "heres a field we're never gonna use again for identification, and here's wher eyou rate" that what you suggest implies. see alistapart.com's forum. that's not a community. that's a question and answer session. part of a community, i think, is making the individul recognizable and an entity. how many communities do you know where the people change their appearance and names all the time? how would that foster relationships among members? part of the point, especially with comments, is to say "oh, well isaac hates everything having to do with XXXXXXX, so i'm going to ignore his comment about it" and stuff like that. not, "oh here's this name i've never seen before... do i nkow them? hmm.. well, since i have nothing to gauge on, i guess i'll take this comment at face value". back to accountability and all that. so, officially, that's a -1 from me in the "anonymous rating&comment department. though, i'm totally down with making it easier for registered members to comment. thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 4 22:38:41 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 4 22:38:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >How do we stop that now? > > > >Hint: we don't. > > per user account we do. And? I can rate you as a 5. Then I can create 5 other logins, and rate you again 5 times with a 5. I can do this in a manner that is barely suspicious or likely to be investigated by anyone. I fail to see where the user account bears any relevance. A 5 from my legit isaac account (in existence for a long time, and with a high-level of contribution to back it up) is worth the same amount as a fake 5 from my fluffymonkey account (yes, it exists as of an hour ago, but has never written/rated/commented. I just wanted to remind myself of the registration process). > and that's really all we can do. Incorrect. We could do it per verifiable email address by not activating an account until a reply had been received from the registered account. Many list subscriptions work in this manner. Of course, we cannot stop people with their own domain adding 50 usernames, or people adding email addresses to their stable via free email providers. But it's another level of frustration to reduce the amount of fucking with the system. > The honor system is nice. but as we start creating more and more incentive > to create good content for evolt (average total rating, cubes, etc.), > there's the side effect of competition which could pursuade someone to > pump up their own article. Absolutely true. Very little to stop this occuring at this very second, however. It took me all of 15 seconds to logout, register another user and be ready to rate something. Again, we can discourage this by fostering a positive and honest feeling amongst members if we feel that a situation is getting out of hand. > so, now we're encouraging fewer ratings? We're impeding more ratings. Evidence: the email that kicked off this thread. > >I would not expect much variation in purity level, but would definitely > >appreciate the increase in ratings. > > I disagree. Unless, of course, people are already creating junk users to > do this. Which they could easily be doing. (I don't think it is happening (at least, I doubt that it's happening much), but then I don't think that allowing anonymous ratings would really spawn many junk ratings either). > to be fair, the system discourages this by the way its set up. sure, it > can happen, but it's less of a temptation than "heres a field we're never > gonna use again for identification, and here's wher eyou rate" that what > you suggest implies. For me to give 5 5's in the current system: - rate 5, logout, re-reg, rate 5, logout, etc, etc. 30 seconds each time. Under a potential system, frequent re-registrations could be discouraged by warnings/blocks that exist when 2 reregistrations are attempted from the same IP, or within a certain time frame. That could be expanded to handle anonymous ratings in a similar manner. On subsequent visits, the information (name/email) can be prefilled via use of a cookie. This is done on many forums in which I participate but don't wish to bother registering. > see alistapart.com's forum. that's not a community. that's a question and > answer session. I have not used their forum. But if many users recognise many others and place trust based on past experience, I'd say it's somewhat of a community. > part of a community, i think, is making the individul recognizable and an Ratings are not publically viewable to registered members. I fail to see your point. > part of the point, especially with comments, is to say "oh, well isaac > hates everything having to do with XXXXXXX, so i'm going to ignore his > comment about it" and stuff like that. You'll note that I have not advocated anonymous posting. We have enjoyed a good level of comments on many popular articles, and your points regarding user trust are perfectly valid. > so, officially, that's a -1 from me in the "anonymous rating&comment > department. though, i'm totally down with making it easier for registered > members to comment. I have a -1 on anonymous comments, and a tentative +1 on anonymous ratings. As with yourself, I'm all for making it easier for users to comment. Especially those who are registered members of our lists, but not of the site. I'd also like to make it easier for visitors (external articles, search engines, etc) to have at least some level of participation. Added bonus of the on-the-fly registration is that we can send out an automated email raising awareness of everything else we do, and encourage them to participate. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From rwd at csi1st.net Thu Oct 4 22:49:22 2001 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Thu Oct 4 22:49:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles References: Message-ID: <3BBD2F51.437113B5@csi1st.net> isaac wrote: > I have a -1 on anonymous comments, and a tentative +1 on anonymous ratings. > > As with yourself, I'm all for making it easier for users to comment. > Especially those who are registered members of our lists, but not of the > site. > > I'd also like to make it easier for visitors (external articles, search > engines, etc) to have at least some level of participation. > > Added bonus of the on-the-fly registration is that we can send out an > automated email raising awareness of everything else we do, and encourage > them to participate. +1, the last point is very good Ron D. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 4 22:58:11 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 4 22:58:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 5, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] voting for articles >> and that's really all we can do. > >Incorrect. We could do it per verifiable email address by not activating an >account until a reply had been received from the registered account. Many >list subscriptions work in this manner. and that helps only as a deterrent, just like the other things our system requires. i have an infinite number of valid email addresses *@mattwarden.com *@odyssey-design.com mwarden at members.evolt.org mwarden at users.sourceforge.net ... the list continues >Of course, we cannot stop people with their own domain adding 50 usernames, >or people adding email addresses to their stable via free email providers. >But it's another level of frustration to reduce the amount of fucking with >the system. exactly. it's a deterrent. we already have those. i'm not sure what the argument here is... do you want to add in a email verification process? i thought we were trying to simplify the registration process? >> The honor system is nice. but as we start creating more and more incentive >> to create good content for evolt (average total rating, cubes, etc.), >> there's the side effect of competition which could pursuade someone to >> pump up their own article. > >Absolutely true. Very little to stop this occuring at this very second, >however. It took me all of 15 seconds to logout, register another user and >be ready to rate something. yeah... what do you suggest then? >Again, we can discourage this by fostering a positive and honest feeling >amongst members if we feel that a situation is getting out of hand. well, i'm all for that. i was never against that. what I *am* against is relying solely on that and implementing an completely anonymous rating and comment system. >> so, now we're encouraging fewer ratings? > >We're impeding more ratings. Evidence: the email that kicked off this >thread. well, my above comment is completely out of context. i was referring to something you had said... >> >I would not expect much variation in purity level, but would definitely >> >appreciate the increase in ratings. >> >> I disagree. Unless, of course, people are already creating junk users to >> do this. > >Which they could easily be doing. (I don't think it is happening (at least, >I doubt that it's happening much), but then I don't think that allowing >anonymous ratings would really spawn many junk ratings either). ok, then we disagree. >> to be fair, the system discourages this by the way its set up. sure, it >> can happen, but it's less of a temptation than "heres a field we're never >> gonna use again for identification, and here's wher eyou rate" that what >> you suggest implies. > >For me to give 5 5's in the current system: > > - rate 5, logout, re-reg, rate 5, logout, etc, etc. 30 seconds each time. > >Under a potential system, frequent re-registrations could be discouraged by >warnings/blocks that exist when 2 reregistrations are attempted from the >same IP, or within a certain time frame. ewwww. >That could be expanded to handle anonymous ratings in a similar manner. ewwww^2. what about companies and networks with a single IP as a window to the internet? what about AOL users. like i said: ewww. >On subsequent visits, the information (name/email) can be prefilled via use >of a cookie. This is done on many forums in which I participate but don't >wish to bother registering. then it's only a suggestion that they keep that name. if we're going to encourage that they use the same name, why go half way? >> part of a community, i think, is making the individul recognizable and an > >Ratings are not publically viewable to registered members. I fail to see >your point. heh. i *SO* knew you were going to pull that. that's why i specifically talked about comments in my examples. anyways, we'll let that alone for obvious reasons, eh isaac? >I'd also like to make it easier for visitors (external articles, search >engines, etc) to have at least some level of participation. you've already stated that it only takes 15 seconds to create a user. seems like you're arguing against both sides. >> part of the point, especially with comments, is to say "oh, well isaac >> hates everything having to do with XXXXXXX, so i'm going to ignore his >> comment about it" and stuff like that. > >You'll note that I have not advocated anonymous posting. ok... then what are you advocating? i mean, i like arguing too, but i also like sleep. speaking of... 'night, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 5 00:44:51 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Fri Oct 5 00:44:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> and that's really all we can do. > exactly. it's a deterrent. we already have those. i'm not sure what the > argument here is... I thought you may have noticed that I was responding to your "and that's really all we can do" comment. i.e., we can do more != we should do more. > do you want to add in a email verification process? No. I didn't suggest that. > i thought we were trying to simplify the registration process? Yes, that is correct. > yeah... what do you suggest then? The on-the-fly "registration" solution, coupled with optional cookies and restrictions on quick re-registration from certain IPs (perhaps using cookies) or within certain timeframes. See previous email for other details. > well, i'm all for that. i was never against that. what I *am* against is > relying solely on that and implementing an completely anonymous rating and > comment system. Forget the comments for now. I've been wanting to talk about the ratings. When ratings are virtually anonymous to the general user level, then your argument of user trust is restricted solely to comments. If we can reduce/minimise/prevent multiple ratings, then I fail to see significant problems with allowing anonymous ratings. Also, calling them anonymous is an impedence to the progression of this discussion. What we'd really be doing is allowing on-the-fly registration to facilitate one-time ratings. The ratings would be no more or less valid or anonymous. The sole issue is whether making it easier to fuck with the system is worth it. I'm saying that we could make it harder to fuck with (and easier to rate) than it is with the current system. > >warnings/blocks that exist when 2 reregistrations are attempted from the > >same IP, or within a certain time frame. > > ewwww. > > what about companies and networks with a single IP as a window to the > internet? what about AOL users. like i said: ewww. Use cookies instead of basing it on IPs. If they don't accept the cookies, the extra level of deterrance isn't there, but that level of deterrance isn't there in the current system either. > then it's only a suggestion that they keep that name. if we're going to > encourage that they use the same name, why go half way? In the context of a community, encouraging can be more powerful than (en)forcing. Encouraging, in this sense, caters for multiple users of a single computer. > >Ratings are not publically viewable to registered members. I fail to see > >your point. > > heh. i *SO* knew you were going to pull that. Congrats for the insight. > that's why i specifically talked about comments in my examples. We're talking about anonymous ratings. I've not argued against disallowing anonymous comments. I agree with the value of user trust, etc. > seems like you're arguing against both sides. Yes. As I said, I don't really have a firm +1/-1 on anonymous ratings, but I'm leaning towards the +1. > >You'll note that I have not advocated anonymous posting. > > ok... then what are you advocating? i mean, i like arguing too, but i also > like sleep. speaking of... Considering the permission of anonymous ratings. The subject of this thread is "voting for articles", i.e., ratings. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 01:17:57 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 01:17:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> <002d01c14d43$0f6af560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BBD515F.9000207@starkmedia.com> Michele Foster wrote: > Dan... > > The only other tentative person left is Adrian .. who will let us know next > week I think? Oh, and Hugh Blair is still tentative. > > What about Mark (mnickel) ? good call, i'll have to ask him on IRC(or if you get a chance, bring it up to him) what we really need now since jeff and josh wont be showing is CF people. > Hotel required for: Me, Matt, Jeremy A and possibly Adrian, Hugh and Mark. k > Are you and Jenn staying at the hotel with us? or at least you? i may be, depending on by BAC :) From mwarden at mattwarden.com Fri Oct 5 06:08:29 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Fri Oct 5 06:08:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting for articles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> seems like you're arguing against both sides. > >Yes. As I said, I don't really have a firm +1/-1 on anonymous ratings, but >I'm leaning towards the +1. ok, well let me know if you get conviced with the +1 side and, if you could, tell me why -- maybe i'll end up with a +1 as well... thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From skaiser1 at skdesigns.com Fri Oct 5 06:57:26 2001 From: skaiser1 at skdesigns.com (Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns) Date: Fri Oct 5 06:57:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. In-Reply-To: <01c14d12$4da39200$c64c149a@rudy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011005045824.02dfd080@mail.midtown.net> At 01:22 PM 10/04/2001, rudy wrote: >i'll be around on the irc channel, though.... What irc channel? I'll wave from California. Warmly, Shirley -- Shirley E. Kaiser, M.A. SKDesigns mailto:skaiser1 at skdesigns.com Website Development http://www.skdesigns.com/ Pianist, Composer http://www.shirleykaiser.com/ Moderator, I-Design http://www.adventive.com/lists/idesign/summary.html From bruce at heerssen.com Fri Oct 5 07:43:39 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Fri Oct 5 07:43:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> <002d01c14d43$0f6af560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BBD515F.9000207@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BBD9B9D.6070409@heerssen.com> Daniel J. Cody wrote: > > what we really need now since jeff and josh wont be showing is CF people. > Codefest is a little far away for me, but I could be available on #evolt. I'm willing to devote my meager CF skills to this. Uhh... when, exactly, is the meeting scheduled? (sorry, still on my first cup of coffee) -bruce From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 09:51:20 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 09:51:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> <002d01c14d43$0f6af560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BBD515F.9000207@starkmedia.com> <3BBD9B9D.6070409@heerssen.com> Message-ID: <3BBDC635.1070000@starkmedia.com> Shirley/Bruce/whoever else.. next saturday probably around 12pm EST we'll get started. its on irc.evolt.org network and #evolt is the channel i'll have more details next week too :) Bruce Heerssen wrote: > Daniel J. Cody wrote: > >> >> what we really need now since jeff and josh wont be showing is CF people. >> > Codefest is a little far away for me, but I could be available on > #evolt. I'm willing to devote my meager CF skills to this. > > Uhh... when, exactly, is the meeting scheduled? (sorry, still on my > first cup of coffee) From djc at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 5 10:24:38 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 10:24:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] gnuPG shell Message-ID: <3BBDCE02.60704@members.evolt.org> alot of people on the evolt lists have been using encryption lately and for those of you who want a fairly easy to use frontend for gnuPG, check out http://www.simtel.net/pub/pd/54555.html should make managing those keys a bit easier for some :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 11:00:13 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:00:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <3BBDD659.5040806@starkmedia.com> if cleaning up the DB is on your LOTTD next weekend, check out this query against the live DB select email from users group by email having count(*) > 1; looks like we have 175 duplicate email's in our user table.. just thought you may be interested :) .djc. From r937 at interlog.com Fri Oct 5 11:06:15 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:06:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <01c14db7$ddd0ff20$a648149a@rudy> >select email from users group by email having count(*) > 1; good one you'll be a data analyst yet (ever worked with olap? doesn't oracle have an olap engine now?) as for cleaning up the db, no, it wasn't on my list should it be? i mean, the kind of thing you allude to, resolving redundant users, is probably best undertaken during a project like the upcoming UEUE (universal evolt userid effort, pronounced "you wee you wee")... have you been thinking about it, dan? ;o) From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 11:24:26 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:24:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: <01c14db7$ddd0ff20$a648149a@rudy> Message-ID: <3BBDDC07.2000808@starkmedia.com> rudy wrote: >>select email from users group by email having count(*) > 1; >> > > good one > > you'll be a data analyst yet > > (ever worked with olap? doesn't oracle have an olap engine now?) ya, its had the engine for a while.. in fact, you can tune oracle at install time to run better if OLAP is your thing.. same with data warehousing > as for cleaning up the db, no, it wasn't on my list > > should it be? i mean, the kind of thing you allude to, resolving redundant > users, is probably best undertaken during a project like the upcoming UEUE > (universal evolt userid effort, pronounced "you wee you wee")... > > have you been thinking about it, dan? ;o) i've been thinking about it yes.. no it shouldn't be on your LOTTD :) i noticed this whole thing because a friend of mine was signing up for evolt and someone had the username she wanted, and that triggered my efforts to find dead/duplicate accounts.. UEUE rules btw. :) i'll think about it some more.. quicky question. how would i run that query and get the persons last login date too? select who, lastlogin, createdate from users group by email having count(*) > 1 is giving me a "Not a group by" expression.. sorry about the dumb questions, I'm only on page 75 of my "Learn to be Rudy in 21 days" book :) .djc. From joshua at alphashop.com Fri Oct 5 11:41:22 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:41:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: <01c14db7$ddd0ff20$a648149a@rudy> <3BBDDC07.2000808@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <012101c14dbd$d3894170$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> : i'll think about it some more.. quicky question. how would i run that : query and get the persons last login date too? : : select who, lastlogin, createdate from users group by email having : count(*) > 1 : : is giving me a "Not a group by" expression.. sorry about the dumb : questions, I'm only on page 75 of my "Learn to be Rudy in 21 days" book :) I don't think that'll work because you cannot return this sort of row level detail when you have a group by in there. Try: select who, lastlogin, createdate from users where exists (select 1 from users u2 where u2.email = users.email and u2.userid != user.userid) Or something like that. There may be some fancy group by variation, but this aughta work (mind you, I'm not sure if userid is the correct fieldname) -joshua From sgd at ti3.com Fri Oct 5 11:51:05 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:51:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: > : > : select who, lastlogin, createdate from users group by email having > : count(*) > 1 > : in SQL server, this would give an error that your group by doesn't include anything in your select list. something like: select email, who, lastlogin, createdate from users group by email, who, lastlogin, createdate having count(email) > 1 may be better > : is giving me a "Not a group by" expression.. sorry about the dumb > : questions, I'm only on page 75 of my "Learn to be Rudy in > 21 days" book :) > (I'm only on page 137) sgd From joshua at alphashop.com Fri Oct 5 11:58:59 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Fri Oct 5 11:58:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: Message-ID: <013d01c14dc0$49cbb0f0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Rudy, please correct me if I'm wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Dexter" Subject: RE: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. : something like: : select email, who, lastlogin, createdate from users group by email, : who, lastlogin, createdate having count(email) > 1 I do not think this will work either because the GROUP BY forces all rows that have the same email to be reduced down into one row. Of course, I am assuming that Dan is interested in the information for each person that has an email that matches someone else's so he can make some sort of decision about the data. If I am blowing smoke, please correct me... I love to learn. I am not really very good at this GROUPing stuff. I remember something about having to use an aggregate function on all fields returned not included in the GROUP BY or else you either 1) throw an error, or 2) get a lot of stuff you don't expect (such as 100000000000 rows returned) -joshua From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Oct 5 12:32:18 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:32:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List Message-ID: <01d701c14dc3$eee48640$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks .. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm A proposed task list above. Please, everyone read through carefully and provide comments where required. (Specific subject lines would be very helpful.) Several proposed tasks do not have all of the information fleshed out yet. So, if you want to provide suggestions/comments, please do so by mid next week. For those not attending CodeFest, if you have tasks to be done so that a particular project can proceed, please provide the information required. If you can't do it in time for CodeFest, then please let me know, and we'll take that particular project off the list of things to do (at CF and add it to aeo). If you'll be participating via IRC, that is fine too. What I need to know, is what can we proceed with. The next step will be to divide up the tasks among those that are coming and those that are participating via IRC. Thanks for your cooperation. Anything else that needs to be added, let me know that too please. Also, I've updated the list of participants: http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/cf_attend.htm Jeff, the category descriptions, I dunno when I'll have a chance to write the content for this. That particular task isn't high priority. I may get the content written at CodeFest, but it won't have been through a review process. Rudy, your DB diagram would really be helpful. :) Dan, I didn't provide any information for the unified login. I'll leave that task in your capable hands to flesh out. Also, are there any tasks you want added for tagwear, since we'll have some PHP gurus at Codefest? Michele (the trying to be organized one) From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 12:38:22 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:38:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] duplicate accounts.. Message-ID: <3BBDED5B.6000706@starkmedia.com> ok, heres the results of the query(thanks josh). sorry about the length and any wack formatting. i've s&r'd the emails to what they are now so no spiderts rip thesite archive for addys.. my thoughts are: if its a duplicate email address, like in the first reocrd for example, i'm going to auto-wack the older one, older being determined by the lastlogin if the second(or third) duplicate has a lastlogin of more than a year old they get wacked too. unless we don't want to wack old accounts. the only reason i can see that though is if someone signed up for evolt to get a m.e.o account and never came back to evolt proper. it would be nice to have a record of them somewhere in our main DB. i'm just running ideas here around and seriously welcome and want feedback about scenerios.. my thinking and login may be fucked because i'm seriously hungover and still thinking in spanish :) thanks .djc. -------- Original Message -------- Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:31:01 -0500 From: djc at leo.evolt.org To: djc at starkmedia.com SQL> select email, who, lastlogin, createdate from users where exists (select 1 from users u2 where u2.email = users.email and u2.userid != users.userid) order by email asc; EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- Evolt-at-ZName.com knightly 03-MAY-00 03-MAY-00 Evolt-at-ZName.com everyknight 03-MAY-00 03-MAY-00 R.Livsey-at-cache-22.co.uk R.Livsey-at-cache-22.co.uk 23-OCT-00 23-OCT-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- R.Livsey-at-cache-22.co.uk rlivsey 14-DEC-00 14-DEC-00 Shaggy_Pyce-at-yahoo.com shaggy 13-AUG-01 27-JUN-01 Shaggy_Pyce-at-yahoo.com iamShaggy 29-JUN-01 29-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- Strigmaga-at-mac.com Striga 23-JAN-01 23-JAN-01 Strigmaga-at-mac.com Strigmaga 25-APR-01 25-APR-01 a_stencil-at-hotmail.com stencil 09-JUN-00 29-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- a_stencil-at-hotmail.com rombus 23-JUL-01 23-JUL-01 abcd-45-at-hanmail.net sfzine 01-JUL-01 27-JUN-01 abcd-45-at-hanmail.net cultfree 10-AUG-01 10-AUG-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- abhisurf-at-bigfoot.com abhishek 05-SEP-99 05-SEP-99 abhisurf-at-bigfoot.com abhisurf 05-SEP-99 05-SEP-99 abslost-at-yahoo.com jgw34 27-APR-00 27-APR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- abslost-at-yahoo.com abslost 28-SEP-00 28-SEP-00 aiz-at-kemtronik.com aiz 12-JUN-01 12-JUN-01 aiz-at-kemtronik.com ittaras 27-JUN-01 15-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- aiz-at-kemtronik.com dotmy 15-JUN-01 15-JUN-01 alameer16-at-hotmail.com asdiqaa 24-APR-01 24-APR-01 alameer16-at-hotmail.com marwan 02-MAY-01 02-MAY-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- alex.angelov-at-dir.bg alex.angelov-at-dir.bg 19-NOV-00 19-NOV-00 alex.angelov-at-dir.bg alex78 19-NOV-00 19-NOV-00 alex-at-ewanted.com alecs333 03-JAN-00 03-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- alex-at-ewanted.com ewanted 28-AUG-01 28-MAR-01 amckaig-at-masterfile.com amckaig-at-masterfile.com 14-JUL-00 14-JUL-00 amckaig-at-masterfile.com mckaig 14-SEP-01 01-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- amfax-at-pacbell.net amfax-at-pacbell.net 20-OCT-00 20-OCT-00 amfax-at-pacbell.net jerrym 15-FEB-01 15-FEB-01 amoreno-at-ntwebdesign.com amoreno 27-APR-01 18-MAY-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- amoreno-at-ntwebdesign.com Adrian 22-FEB-01 28-JUN-99 an4x-at-hotmail.com an5x 20-APR-01 20-APR-01 an4x-at-hotmail.com norah 29-JUN-01 24-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- anders.stormo-at-tr.telia.no astormo 09-MAY-99 09-MAY-99 anders.stormo-at-tr.telia.no anders 09-MAY-99 09-MAY-99 andre-at-torrez.org andre 13-APR-00 13-APR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- andre-at-torrez.org andretorrez 23-MAR-01 23-MAR-01 andrew-at-oaktree.co.uk BobInce 15-AUG-01 24-AUG-99 andrew-at-oaktree.co.uk bobince 17-AUG-01 24-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- andrew-at-thepander.co.nz andrew-at-thepander.co.nz 06-SEP-00 06-SEP-00 andrew-at-thepander.co.nz andrewpander 10-JAN-01 09-JAN-01 andyo-at-inxpress.net AndyO 28-AUG-99 28-AUG-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- andyo-at-inxpress.net andyolsen 02-OCT-00 02-OCT-00 andyo-at-tds.net andyo-at-tds.net 01-NOV-00 01-NOV-00 andyo-at-tds.net andyo 04-JAN-01 04-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- anoftp-at-everymail.net anoftp 08-APR-01 08-APR-01 anoftp-at-everymail.net proxy 08-APR-01 08-APR-01 anoftp-at-everymail.net anoftps 08-APR-01 08-APR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ashcraft-at-13monkeys.com ashlinux 30-JUL-01 19-OCT-99 ashcraft-at-13monkeys.com ashcraft 22-SEP-01 24-JUL-01 aymanfm-at-hotmail.com aymanfm 21-APR-01 21-APR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- aymanfm-at-hotmail.com mobdeon 10-MAY-01 10-MAY-01 b.grama-at-finsiel.ro bogdan_grama 11-MAY-01 11-MAY-01 b.grama-at-finsiel.ro Bogdan 28-MAY-01 28-MAY-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- bakern-at-mso.umt.edu bakern-at-mso.umt.edu 04-OCT-00 04-OCT-00 bakern-at-mso.umt.edu nick 05-OCT-00 05-OCT-00 barnescc-at-home.com barnescc-at-home.com 08-NOV-00 08-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- barnescc-at-home.com wabarnes 08-NOV-00 08-NOV-00 cache-at-dowebs.com cache_dowebs.com 24-MAY-01 22-MAY-01 cache-at-dowebs.com cache_ 05-JUL-01 28-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- carleen.tracy-at-b3interactive.com carleen.tracy-at-b3interactive.com 23-OCT-00 23-OCT-00 carleen.tracy-at-b3interactive.com ctracy 09-NOV-00 02-NOV-00 cbriggs-at-clear.net.nz christiaan 30-OCT-00 30-OCT-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- cbriggs-at-clear.net.nz cbriggs 30-OCT-00 30-OCT-00 cdi_dev-at-hotmail.com CDiDev 25-JUN-01 25-JUN-01 cdi_dev-at-hotmail.com cdi_dev 25-JUN-01 25-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- cdi_dev-at-hotmail.com CDiDevelopers 24-SEP-01 24-SEP-01 colin-at-u2i.com colin 20-NOV-00 20-NOV-00 colin-at-u2i.com oshkarr 18-AUG-01 28-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- cyberminkie-at-cyberwhirled.com minkie 31-AUG-00 31-AUG-00 cyberminkie-at-cyberwhirled.com cyberminkie 01-OCT-01 01-OCT-01 data-at-data1701d.com data-at-data1701d.com 29-SEP-00 29-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- data-at-data1701d.com bmason 04-OCT-01 10-OCT-00 david.braun-at-centralnet.ch david 13-MAR-01 24-SEP-00 david.braun-at-centralnet.ch David_Braun 20-FEB-01 20-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- dhavaldepatel-at-yahoo.com dhavaldepatel-at-yahoo.com 18-NOV-00 18-NOV-00 dhavaldepatel-at-yahoo.com ddpatel 18-NOV-00 18-NOV-00 djc-at-members.evolt.org djc 05-OCT-01 28-MAR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- djc-at-members.evolt.org deejaycee 12-FEB-01 12-FEB-01 djc-at-members.evolt.org danny2 03-APR-01 26-FEB-01 dlatchana-at-yahoo.com dlatchana 06-SEP-01 11-APR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- dlatchana-at-yahoo.com latchana 27-JUL-01 27-JUL-01 donnajj-at-gwi.net DonnaJones 05-DEC-99 05-DEC-99 donnajj-at-gwi.net Donna_Jones 07-JAN-00 07-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- doug-at-topper.nu douglastopper 12-JUN-01 20-JUL-00 doug-at-topper.nu Arapara 12-JUN-01 12-JUN-01 doughogg-at-yahoo.com DougHogg 24-FEB-01 22-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- doughogg-at-yahoo.com doughogg 31-JUL-01 24-FEB-01 drdee-at-bigfoot.com drdee 15-SEP-00 15-SEP-00 drdee-at-bigfoot.com dr 15-SEP-00 15-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- drdee-at-bigfoot.com drdee 15-SEP-00 15-SEP-00 drdee-at-bigfoot.com d 15-SEP-00 15-SEP-00 drgo-at-zoomnet.net capdragon 10-AUG-00 10-AUG-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- drgo-at-zoomnet.net cpdragon 10-AUG-00 10-AUG-00 dwatling-at-mweb.com Dark Wing 10-DEC-99 10-DEC-99 dwatling-at-mweb.com dwatling 21-SEP-01 12-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- epowell-at-den.net epowell 29-SEP-99 29-SEP-99 epowell-at-den.net eric_powell 10-NOV-99 10-NOV-99 eric-at-schwa.com ericost 29-JUL-00 30-APR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- eric-at-schwa.com eric-at-schwa.com 14-JUL-00 14-JUL-00 ericmcmillen-at-earthlink.net ericdmc 03-OCT-01 17-FEB-00 ericmcmillen-at-earthlink.net ericmcmillen-at-earthlink.net 02-OCT-00 02-OCT-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ervsplace-at-hotmail.com erv 26-JUN-00 26-JUN-00 ervsplace-at-hotmail.com ervsplace 24-APR-01 24-APR-01 evolt-at-stoutstreet.com stoutstreet 02-MAY-01 19-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- evolt-at-stoutstreet.com chupa 02-AUG-01 22-MAR-01 ewonde-at-zeelandnet.nl ewonde 09-JUL-01 09-JUL-01 ewonde-at-zeelandnet.nl aav 20-JUL-01 20-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- eych-at-ageofweb.ru eych-at-ageofweb.ru 05-JAN-01 05-JAN-01 eych-at-ageofweb.ru eych 05-SEP-01 17-JAN-01 factotum-at-mac.com ethan 27-SEP-00 27-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- factotum-at-mac.com et 27-SEP-00 27-SEP-00 fahad456-at-hotmail.com najed 07-MAY-01 07-MAY-01 fahad456-at-hotmail.com najed1 26-SEP-01 26-SEP-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- filip-at-netdesign.se filip-at-netdesign.se 21-SEP-01 01-FEB-01 filip-at-netdesign.se salo 14-FEB-01 11-FEB-01 frank-at-chartist.net chartist 09-JUL-00 09-JUL-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- frank-at-chartist.net frank-at-chartist.net 14-JUL-00 14-JUL-00 frank-at-rollebol.com boelie 05-FEB-01 05-FEB-01 frank-at-rollebol.com rollebol 21-FEB-01 21-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- fultu-at-india.com ajnabi 21-APR-01 21-APR-01 fultu-at-india.com desiboard 05-MAY-01 05-MAY-01 gbrill-at-ameritech.net doc 25-JAN-00 25-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- gbrill-at-ameritech.net kc 23-FEB-00 23-FEB-00 generationext-at-rediffmail.com generationext 13-JUN-01 13-JUN-01 generationext-at-rediffmail.com ravikiran 13-JUN-01 13-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- george-at-cyklotron.com geo 17-APR-00 17-APR-00 george-at-cyklotron.com libertaduno 11-JUN-01 01-JUN-00 glastra-at-home.nl rglastra 27-JUN-01 27-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- glastra-at-home.nl exorcistus 08-JUL-01 08-JUL-01 googolplex-at-cinci.rr.com googolplex-at-cinci.rr.com 24-JUL-00 24-JUL-00 googolplex-at-cinci.rr.com googol 24-JUL-00 24-JUL-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- graphicpro-at-aol.com andy 06-JUN-99 30-MAY-99 graphicpro-at-aol.com graphicpro 06-JAN-00 05-JAN-00 greg-at-catscape.com catscape 09-JAN-01 09-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- greg-at-catscape.com Catscape 18-FEB-01 18-FEB-01 h-at-isl.is h-at-isl.is 29-JAN-01 29-JAN-01 h-at-isl.is hreinnbeck 29-JAN-01 29-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- happy2-at-callnetuk.com markw 10-FEB-00 10-FEB-00 happy2-at-callnetuk.com markaibawhaite 16-MAR-00 14-MAR-00 heldup-at-gunpoint.co.uk gunpoint 23-MAR-01 23-MAR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- heldup-at-gunpoint.co.uk tjko 25-JUL-01 13-JUN-01 henrique.abreu-at-internet.lu xsonline 27-APR-01 27-APR-01 henrique.abreu-at-internet.lu riquito 23-JUN-01 23-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ienam-at-skali.com kekocok 31-MAY-01 31-MAY-01 ienam-at-skali.com kocok 14-JUN-01 14-JUN-01 james-at-guntrisoft.com drinky 05-DEC-00 15-JUN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- james-at-guntrisoft.com Drinky 23-APR-01 30-JAN-01 java_fella-at-yahoo.com evoltcoop 21-MAY-01 29-MAR-01 java_fella-at-yahoo.com FDG_Tom 16-JUL-01 22-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- javier-at-msm.cl mantruc 21-SEP-01 09-JUL-99 javier-at-msm.cl javier-at-msm.cl 14-JUL-00 14-JUL-00 jayak01-at-stcloudstate.edu jayak01-at-stcloudstate.edu 11-SEP-00 11-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jayak01-at-stcloudstate.edu jay 11-SEP-00 11-SEP-00 jeff-at-members.evolt.org .jeff 04-OCT-01 15-APR-99 jeff-at-members.evolt.org .jeffrey 11-AUG-01 12-MAR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jeffc33-at-hotmail.com jeffc33-at-hotmail.com 22-JAN-01 22-JAN-01 jeffc33-at-hotmail.com jeffc33 27-SEP-01 22-FEB-01 jeffrey-at-zeldman.com zeldman 12-APR-00 12-APR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jeffrey-at-zeldman.com apartness 29-MAY-01 14-NOV-00 jgreen-at-desmoinesmetro.com jgreen-at-desmoinesmetro.com 06-FEB-01 06-FEB-01 jgreen-at-desmoinesmetro.com GDMPwebdiva 18-SEP-01 06-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jmarx-at-sparknet.net JeremyM 17-JUN-99 17-JUN-99 jmarx-at-sparknet.net Jmarx 25-SEP-99 25-SEP-99 jmarx-at-sparknet.net ..jeremy. 17-JUN-99 17-JUN-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- john260670-at-hotmail.com john wood 06-SEP-00 06-SEP-00 john260670-at-hotmail.com johnwood 27-NOV-00 27-NOV-00 john260670-at-hotmail.com jon wood 15-NOV-00 15-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- johns-at-net-communities.co.uk johns 02-JUL-01 02-JUL-01 johns-at-net-communities.co.uk jb 31-AUG-01 31-AUG-01 jridout-at-acep.org merlin 14-AUG-00 14-AUG-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jridout-at-acep.org jsridout 17-SEP-01 22-AUG-01 judah-at-alphashop.com judah-at-alphashop.com 10-OCT-00 10-OCT-00 judah-at-alphashop.com judah 11-JUN-01 27-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- julian_melville-at-primus.com.au julian_melville-at-primus.com.au 26-FEB-01 17-JAN-01 julian_melville-at-primus.com.au julianz 22-FEB-01 22-FEB-01 jvp_1999-at-hotmail.com ullstar 07-JUL-01 07-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- jvp_1999-at-hotmail.com ullster 11-AUG-01 11-AUG-01 karen-at-mind-dance.com karen-at-mind-dance.com 02-FEB-01 02-FEB-01 karen-at-mind-dance.com minddancez 01-APR-01 01-APR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- kathleen.howell-at-jbosc.ksc.nasa.gov Katie 26-APR-99 26-APR-99 kathleen.howell-at-jbosc.ksc.nasa.gov klhowell 24-APR-01 03-JUN-99 keith-at-instone.org instone 22-JAN-00 22-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- keith-at-instone.org bullwinkle 06-JAN-01 28-DEC-00 khushil.dep-at-cyberlife.co.uk mdmak 06-MAY-99 06-MAY-99 khushil.dep-at-cyberlife.co.uk khushil 24-JUN-99 24-JUN-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- kschwarz-at-miavita.com kevin2k 17-AUG-01 26-MAR-01 kschwarz-at-miavita.com kmiavita 17-AUG-01 17-AUG-01 laren4-at-yahoo.com laren4-at-yahoo.com 11-JAN-01 11-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- laren4-at-yahoo.com laren 11-MAY-01 11-MAY-01 liz.hincks-at-tufts.edu liz.hincks-at-tufts.edu 05-APR-01 08-NOV-00 liz.hincks-at-tufts.edu lizz 14-AUG-01 14-AUG-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- lorraine-at-foodpix.com Lorraine 16-MAY-01 16-MAY-01 lorraine-at-foodpix.com FoodPix 31-JUL-01 31-JUL-01 lupa-at-inreach.net lupa-at-inreach.net 16-JAN-01 16-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- lupa-at-inreach.net elupa 16-JAN-01 16-JAN-01 lustig-at-acsu.buffalo.edu lustig 29-DEC-99 29-DEC-99 lustig-at-acsu.buffalo.edu mrp 29-JUN-01 29-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- lustig-at-acsu.buffalo.edu Mr.P 29-JUN-01 29-JUN-01 m2m-at-inbetween.org dub_sea 29-OCT-99 29-OCT-99 m2m-at-inbetween.org m2m 14-DEC-99 14-DEC-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- madstone-at-madstone.net Jorah 26-APR-01 16-DEC-99 madstone-at-madstone.net jorah 14-JUN-00 14-JUN-00 mark-at-flat3.net markymark 15-JAN-01 15-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mark-at-flat3.net markflat3 09-FEB-01 08-FEB-01 mark-at-velir.com mark-at-velir.com 05-DEC-00 05-DEC-00 mark-at-velir.com markg 15-DEC-00 15-DEC-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- martin.p.burns-at-uk.pwcglobal.com martin.p.burns-at-uk.pwcglobal.com 30-OCT-00 30-OCT-00 martin.p.burns-at-uk.pwcglobal.com martinb_work 08-FEB-01 08-FEB-01 martin-at-easyweb.co.uk easyweb 26-APR-99 26-APR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- martin-at-easyweb.co.uk whisper 25-NOV-99 25-NOV-99 martin-at-easyweb.co.uk MartinB & AnthonyB 02-AUG-99 02-AUG-99 martin-at-members.evolt.org MartinB 05-OCT-01 26-APR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- martin-at-members.evolt.org greenfields 03-JAN-00 03-JAN-00 marzosky-at-libero.it marzosky 22-AUG-00 25-MAR-00 marzosky-at-libero.it marzosky-at-libero.it 03-AUG-00 03-AUG-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- matt-at-drmobeus.co.uk ground_zero 17-JUN-01 17-JUN-01 matt-at-drmobeus.co.uk groundzero 22-JUN-01 17-JUN-01 matt-at-webquest.net matthewh 28-SEP-99 28-SEP-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- matt-at-webquest.net matthewhh 04-OCT-99 04-OCT-99 meredith-at-pintsize.com pintsize 28-APR-01 24-DEC-99 meredith-at-pintsize.com meredith 01-MAR-00 01-MAR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- meridian3-at-home.com meridian 16-FEB-00 16-FEB-00 meridian3-at-home.com meridian3 09-MAR-00 09-MAR-00 mia-at-vicnet.net.au mia-at-vicnet.net.au 21-JAN-01 21-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mia-at-vicnet.net.au minke 11-SEP-01 19-FEB-01 miinx-at-miinx.com.au miinx-at-miinx.com.au 01-AUG-00 01-AUG-00 miinx-at-miinx.com.au miinx 26-SEP-00 26-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mikey27-at-home.com kydd27 03-APR-01 28-APR-99 mikey27-at-home.com mikey27-at-home.com 19-JUL-00 19-JUL-00 miriam-at-dynagirl.com mimi 03-OCT-01 16-OCT-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- miriam-at-dynagirl.com miriam 23-OCT-00 23-OCT-00 mlucy-at-rcn.com sheewarehouse 29-JUN-01 29-JUN-01 mlucy-at-rcn.com vgb 17-AUG-01 17-AUG-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mosbourne-at-medialink.com medialink 10-JUL-00 10-JUL-00 mosbourne-at-medialink.com medialink62 09-AUG-00 09-AUG-00 mpm-at-norwottuck.com pearlbear 22-NOV-00 22-NOV-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mpm-at-norwottuck.com michellem 14-MAR-01 14-MAR-01 mslibby-at-hotmail.com Libby 25-JAN-01 25-JAN-01 mslibby-at-hotmail.com mslibby 23-AUG-01 05-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- mwolfe-at-ework.com wolfboy 25-SEP-01 18-MAY-99 mwolfe-at-ework.com eworkmikey 31-AUG-00 31-AUG-00 n_naydenov-at-abv.bg n_naydenov 12-SEP-01 12-SEP-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- n_naydenov-at-abv.bg nnaydenov 12-SEP-01 12-SEP-01 narrator-at-idiom.com narrator-at-idiom.com 13-SEP-00 13-SEP-00 narrator-at-idiom.com kyra 16-MAR-01 07-MAR-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ndevine-at-rakehell.com divinentd 16-JUN-01 11-NOV-00 ndevine-at-rakehell.com devine 15-NOV-00 15-NOV-00 netfan-at-163.com zhenghe 06-SEP-01 06-SEP-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- netfan-at-163.com xiaoshu 14-SEP-01 14-SEP-01 nico-at-monnet.to nictamer 26-FEB-01 20-APR-00 nico-at-monnet.to nimo 03-JUN-00 03-JUN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- nigel-at-cyberscape.net hamlet 24-JUN-99 24-JUN-99 nigel-at-cyberscape.net nigel 21-JUL-99 01-JUL-99 oddur-at-gm.is oddur-at-gm.is 19-SEP-00 19-SEP-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- oddur-at-gm.is oddursm 19-SEP-00 19-SEP-00 oddur-at-nulleinn.is LeOD 05-FEB-00 05-FEB-00 oddur-at-nulleinn.is L'od 06-FEB-00 06-FEB-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- oksej-at-szm.com mashkin-at-themail.com 14-MAY-01 19-JAN-01 oksej-at-szm.com Oksej 14-MAY-01 14-MAY-01 opalsa-at-ozemail.com.au arnold 25-JUL-01 25-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- opalsa-at-ozemail.com.au harris 22-SEP-01 10-AUG-01 palema-at-galaxyinternet.net Palema 19-FEB-01 19-FEB-01 palema-at-galaxyinternet.net palema 25-FEB-01 25-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- paul-at-blue-c.com paul 24-JAN-00 24-JAN-00 paul-at-blue-c.com P/\\/L 27-JAN-00 24-JAN-00 peg-at-anxietygirl.com peg-at-anxietygirl.com 21-AUG-00 21-AUG-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- peg-at-anxietygirl.com pegdaniels 07-AUG-01 30-JAN-01 peltand-at-yahoo.com peltand-at-yahoo.com 05-FEB-01 05-FEB-01 peltand-at-yahoo.com darwinp 24-SEP-01 24-SEP-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- phil-at-xlab.co.uk xlab_phil 08-MAR-01 08-MAR-01 phil-at-xlab.co.uk xlabphil 20-SEP-01 12-MAR-01 philhuen-at-myrealbox.com huenhuen 01-JUL-01 01-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- philhuen-at-myrealbox.com philhuen 06-AUG-01 06-AUG-01 rachel-at-someplace.force9.co.uk Rachel 05-NOV-99 05-NOV-99 rachel-at-someplace.force9.co.uk rachbeth 17-FEB-00 17-FEB-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- research-at-bud.net research-at-bud.net 18-SEP-00 18-SEP-00 research-at-bud.net scorpio 18-OCT-00 18-OCT-00 robin-at-rhastings.net robin-at-rhastings.net 28-MAR-01 22-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- robin-at-rhastings.net rhastings 05-OCT-01 22-JAN-01 rolandjl-at-netcom.ca rolandjl 08-FEB-00 08-FEB-00 rolandjl-at-netcom.ca top_gun 13-AUG-00 13-AUG-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- rory-at-blader.com rory 27-MAY-99 27-MAY-99 rory-at-blader.com dax 14-JAN-00 14-JAN-00 rory-at-blader.com daxboy 24-JAN-00 24-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ryan-at-kerkness.com Ryan 20-NOV-99 04-JUN-99 ryan-at-kerkness.com kerkness 18-JUN-01 06-JUN-00 sal-at-polarhome.com sal 23-SEP-01 23-SEP-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- sal-at-polarhome.com vortex 29-SEP-01 29-SEP-01 schellim-at-spawar.navy.mil schellim-at-spawar.navy.mil 09-JAN-01 09-JAN-01 schellim-at-spawar.navy.mil mschelling 16-JAN-01 09-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- schmitt-at-christopher.org christopher 14-OCT-99 14-OCT-99 schmitt-at-christopher.org christopherschmitt 20-APR-01 19-APR-01 schnarf283-at-usa.net schnarf283 15-JUN-01 15-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- schnarf283-at-usa.net xboards 18-JUN-01 18-JUN-01 schnarf283-at-usa.net schnarf 27-JUN-01 27-JUN-01 seb-at-admin.evolt.org Seb 02-OCT-01 22-APR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- seb-at-admin.evolt.org sebtest 02-MAR-00 02-MAR-00 seb-at-webtrek.com malice 24-JUN-99 24-JUN-99 seb-at-webtrek.com batess 19-DEC-00 05-NOV-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- shinji-at-kuwayama.com shinji 21-JAN-00 21-JAN-00 shinji-at-kuwayama.com shinji_kuwayama 23-APR-01 23-APR-01 simoncoggins-at-hotmail.com astro38 10-SEP-01 19-DEC-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- simoncoggins-at-hotmail.com simonc 04-OCT-01 03-SEP-01 spalmisano-at-usaiss.com spalmisano-at-usaiss.com 22-DEC-00 22-DEC-00 spalmisano-at-usaiss.com Salvatore 30-JUL-01 02-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- ssmith-at-forumone.com ssmith-at-forumone.com 24-SEP-00 24-SEP-00 ssmith-at-forumone.com sandys1 25-SEP-00 25-SEP-00 stan-at-aphids.com StanTaylor 22-NOV-99 22-NOV-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- stan-at-aphids.com bug_hunter 14-JUN-00 13-JUN-00 stef_26-at-hotmail.com DivineFXP 18-APR-01 18-APR-01 stef_26-at-hotmail.com sno0py2 30-AUG-01 30-AUG-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- stephen-at-sodium.co.uk Stef 04-OCT-01 15-NOV-99 stephen-at-sodium.co.uk stephenB 15-MAY-01 04-JAN-01 steve.morrison-at-verizon.com steve.morrison-at-verizon.com 12-JAN-01 12-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- steve.morrison-at-verizon.com sdm 29-MAY-01 15-FEB-01 steve-at-roatanet.com smh 11-APR-01 05-JUL-99 steve-at-roatanet.com SpeedRacer 26-JAN-00 24-JAN-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- stevhenderson-at-hotmail.com stevhenderson-at-hotmail.com 15-JAN-01 15-JAN-01 stevhenderson-at-hotmail.com stevhenderson 15-JAN-01 15-JAN-01 stratton-at-atkin.com stratton-at-atkin.com 24-JUL-00 24-JUL-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- stratton-at-atkin.com doug 19-DEC-00 13-DEC-00 stringers-at-library.vanderbilt.edu shade 18-AUG-00 18-AUG-00 stringers-at-library.vanderbilt.edu chard9 06-SEP-01 14-FEB-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- tarpy-at-pobox.com tarpy-at-pobox.com 06-DEC-00 06-DEC-00 tarpy-at-pobox.com tarpy 03-OCT-01 10-APR-01 teresa-at-lynqs.com MariaTeresa 22-APR-99 22-APR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- teresa-at-lynqs.com Teresa 11-APR-00 17-MAY-99 thelist-at-mmconsult.com thelist-at-mmconsult.com 11-DEC-00 11-DEC-00 thelist-at-mmconsult.com tmcgee 01-JAN-01 01-JAN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- tim.mustill-at-jhbunn.co.uk timbo 15-OCT-99 15-OCT-99 tim.mustill-at-jhbunn.co.uk timmustill 17-JUL-01 19-MAR-01 twebb-at-dynamicinst.com twebb-at-dynamicinst.com 03-OCT-00 03-OCT-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- twebb-at-dynamicinst.com twebb 26-FEB-01 26-FEB-01 vaprol-at-ukrpost.net artem 07-JUL-01 07-JUL-01 vaprol-at-ukrpost.net plague 08-JUL-01 08-JUL-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- venalcolony-at-videotron.ca venalcolony-at-videotron.ca 15-FEB-01 07-FEB-01 venalcolony-at-videotron.ca eLuddite 15-FEB-01 12-FEB-01 wamort-at-earthlink.net wamort-at-earthlink.net 26-APR-00 26-APR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- wamort-at-earthlink.net w. a. morton 26-APR-00 26-APR-00 webguru-at-vsnl.net cold_logic 28-SEP-01 07-FEB-00 webguru-at-vsnl.net webguru-at-vsnl.net 10-DEC-00 10-DEC-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- webmaster-at-alhome.com msmith 18-APR-00 18-APR-00 webmaster-at-alhome.com marshallgs 03-MAY-00 03-MAY-00 webshot-at-neoncowboy.com webshot 26-SEP-01 20-AUG-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- webshot-at-neoncowboy.com websh0t 25-JAN-00 25-JAN-00 webshot-at-neoncowboy.com webshot-at-neoncowboy.com 25-JUL-00 25-JUL-00 webshot-at-neoncowboy.com neon_cowboy 15-MAR-00 15-MAR-00 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- william-at-websitefinancing.com William 02-NOV-99 02-NOV-99 william-at-websitefinancing.com haynie 17-FEB-00 17-FEB-00 wortkarg-at-gmx.net mczonk 11-MAY-01 09-MAY-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- wortkarg-at-gmx.net firespray 30-SEP-01 30-SEP-01 yaku-at-jweb.co.jp ik 29-MAY-01 16-APR-01 yaku-at-jweb.co.jp yaku 30-MAY-01 30-MAY-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- yaz420-at-hotmail.com God 27-JUN-01 27-JUN-01 yaz420-at-hotmail.com Skippy 29-JUN-01 29-JUN-01 zsole1-at-hotmail.com zsole1 27-APR-99 27-APR-99 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- zsole1-at-hotmail.com zsole 04-MAY-99 04-MAY-99 zuhairibrahim-at-home.com zuhair 22-APR-01 21-APR-01 zuhairibrahim-at-home.com zuhair4 16-JUN-01 16-JUN-01 EMAIL -------------------------------------------------- WHO LASTLOGIN CREATEDAT -------------------------------------------------- --------- --------- zzh84524-at-21cn.com z2h 29-SEP-01 29-SEP-01 zzh84524-at-21cn.com z2hbbs 29-SEP-01 29-SEP-01 362 rows selected. SQL> spo off From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Oct 5 12:38:38 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:38:38 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation Message-ID: <01e201c14dc4$cf1d0980$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks, Just forwarding this to thesite again. I think it got lost in among all the emails and holidays, etc. Did they get done? i.e. the new images created and the HTML corrected? Filip's new images look great to me. Anyone else have comments? Thanks, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Filip Salomonsson" | Daniel J. Cody: | > on the article page( i used one from commentary so it didnt have any | > user added formatting), we're getting an error on the cube image align: | > | > Error: value of attribute "ALIGN" cannot be "ABSMIDDLE"; must be one of | > "TOP", "MIDDLE", "BOTTOM", "LEFT", "RIGHT" | | Ah, that's right.. absmiddle never was part of the HTML spec. Bummer. | | > would using middle give the same effect filip/anyone? | | Nope, not the same. Actually, absmiddle was a rather ugly fix which would | break as soon as the text size changes. Using "middle" and padding the | bottom gifs with five or so pixels is probably the right way to go. | | Like this: | | | This should look alright even if the text size changes. "Middle" aligns the | vertical center of the image to the baseline of the text, which is really | what absmiddle did (but only for this specific text size). Same thing, but | done the Right Way. Yay! | | If it seems okay, I'll fix the gifs. | | /filip From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 5 12:42:25 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:42:25 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <01e201c14dc4$cf1d0980$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BBDEE4E.4050405@starkmedia.com> sorry, i think i dropped the ball here waiting to hear back if we were shooting for 4.0 or 4.01 filip, do you have the images done? or should i be doing something else? :) lemme know .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Just forwarding this to thesite again. I think it got lost in among all the > emails and holidays, etc. > > Did they get done? i.e. the new images created and the HTML corrected? > > Filip's new images look great to me. Anyone else have comments? > > Thanks, > > Michele > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Filip Salomonsson" > > > | Daniel J. Cody: > | > on the article page( i used one from commentary so it didnt have any > | > user added formatting), we're getting an error on the cube image align: > | > > | > Error: value of attribute "ALIGN" cannot be "ABSMIDDLE"; must be one of > | > "TOP", "MIDDLE", "BOTTOM", "LEFT", "RIGHT" > | > | Ah, that's right.. absmiddle never was part of the HTML spec. Bummer. > | > | > would using middle give the same effect filip/anyone? > | > | Nope, not the same. Actually, absmiddle was a rather ugly fix which would > | break as soon as the text size changes. Using "middle" and padding the > | bottom gifs with five or so pixels is probably the right way to go. > | > | Like this: > | > | > | This should look alright even if the text size changes. "Middle" aligns > the > | vertical center of the image to the baseline of the text, which is really > | what absmiddle did (but only for this specific text size). Same thing, but > | done the Right Way. Yay! > | > | If it seems okay, I'll fix the gifs. > | > | /filip > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From r937 at interlog.com Fri Oct 5 12:46:54 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:46:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <01c14dc5$7a2314a0$a648149a@rudy> you guys kill me it takes a lot longer than 21 days, eh i still haven't got it right ;o) > select who, lastlogin, createdate > from users > group by email > having count(*) > 1 > > is giving me a "Not a group by" expression as well it should i understand what you want, though > I don't think that'll work because you cannot > return this sort of row level detail when you have > a group by in there. exactly, joshua think about what happens with a group by -- the rows in the group are collapsed, preserving the values of the group by columns > select who, lastlogin, createdate > from users > where exists > (select 1 from users u2 > where u2.email = users.email > and u2.userid != user.userid) > > Or something like that. indeed, that's pretty close -- in fact it does give you the right answer, except that it includes every user twice! (he said, confidently, not having bothered to test it) > something like: > > select email, who, lastlogin, createdate > from users > group by email, who, lastlogin, createdate > having count(email) > 1 good try scott, but this will probably come up empty -- you're looking for groups where they have at least two rows with the same email and who and lastlogin and createdate and way to go, hinting at null emails... as if group by wasn't tricky enough, now you gotta bring up the issue of nulls? i love nulls, but they are really hard for a lot of people to grasp > I do not think this will work either because the GROUP BY > forces all rows that have the same email to be reduced down > into one row. exactly -- i say collapsed, you say reduced ;o) key point: the database gives you one row per group the only actual column values you can access are the ones that are guaranteed to be the same for every row in the group -- and that would be the columns in the group by column list you can also access column functions for the group column functions are most often called aggregate functions, as they operate on a set of values -- the column of values for the rows of the group (scalar functions like substring, month, cast, and so on, operate on a single, scalar value in a single row) so definitely you want to group by email the trick is to make the grouping a subquery, similar to where joshua was going, but using IN instead of EXISTS select email, who, lastlogin, createdate from users where email in (select email from users group by email having count(*) > 1) the subquery returns all the duplicated emails, while the outer query returns all the rows that have those emails a good optimizer will do it in a single pass using a join, but don't you try to write it as a join, you'll only hurt yourself i think count(*) is faster, but count(email) -- and i'd want to test this to make sure -- produces the same result, only it never returns a null group if there were tons of null emails in the table (and in our case there aren't), this might be a good idea, as you wouldn't want the outer query to return all the users without an email (assuming there was more than one), but it would probably not occur to me to write count(email), i'd probably put a filter in the subquery -- select email, who, lastlogin, createdate from users where email in (select email from users where email is not null group by email having count(*) > 1) rudy From sgd at ti3.com Fri Oct 5 12:50:16 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:50:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: amazed and enlightened, as always =) Thanks Rude dex > -----Original Message----- > From: rudy [mailto:r937 at interlog.com] From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 5 12:50:42 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:50:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <0a62201531705a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> rudy wrote on 5/10/01 5:07 pm >should it be? i mean, the kind of thing you allude to, resolving redundant >users, is probably best undertaken during a project like the upcoming UEUE >(universal evolt userid effort, pronounced "you wee you wee")... I think so, but there are more issues at stake than the simple technical ones. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 5 12:50:43 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:50:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <0a84000531705a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 5/10/01 4:48 pm >if cleaning up the DB is on your LOTTD next weekend, check out this >query against the live DB > >select email from users group by email having count(*) > 1; > >looks like we have 175 duplicate email's in our user table.. just >thought you may be interested :) And before we think about merrily deleting the dupes, can we please have a think about a data constitution? Are we assuming that they're genuine redundant duplicates? How will we know which ones are? How will we let people know what we're doing? What will their reaction be? How do we cater for people who (for whatever reason - some no doubt genuine) *want* dupe accounts? I'm sure there are other questions - these are the ones off the top of my head. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From joshua at alphashop.com Fri Oct 5 12:53:39 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:53:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: <01c14dc5$7a2314a0$a648149a@rudy> Message-ID: <019501c14dc7$ec424040$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> : > select who, lastlogin, createdate : > from users : > where exists : > (select 1 from users u2 : > where u2.email = users.email : > and u2.userid != user.userid) : > : > Or something like that. : : indeed, that's pretty close -- in fact it does give you the : right answer, except that it includes every user twice! I don't think it does because of the u2.userid != user.userid conditional. That makes sure it excludes counting itself. Of course, putting the group by subquery in the IN clause is a much better answer. Can you say, deja vu? I think we covered something like this on thelist about a month ago. And then you say, : (he said, confidently, not having bothered to test it) DOAH! -joshua From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Oct 5 12:57:40 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:57:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <01d701c14dc3$eee48640$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <01f901c14dc7$7a85bc20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> I get to wear the Dork hat today and respond to my own message. (I forgot something.. sue me) Dean, I didn't include the Tip Harvester in anyway on the task list. Is there anything specific you need done or would like help with? I was thinking as fill in time, Matt and I could direct others on categorizing the tips. I did a bunch a week or so ago, but haven't had time to get back to it. Since this is password protected, I can't give out the full details via this list at the moment. Let me know if there is anything else to do. Thanks, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Foster" | Hi Folks .. | | http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm | From r937 at interlog.com Fri Oct 5 13:09:24 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Fri Oct 5 13:09:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <01c14dc9$25987c00$a648149a@rudy> > I don't think it does because of the > u2.userid != user.userid conditional. of course [whacks self on forehead] you're right, each row is returned once the outer query was, after all, looking for row details (i musta been thinking of how many groups, which is a slightly more complex query...) by the way, your query is awfully hard to extend beyond duplicates -- what would it look like if you were trying to list all users where there were three of them with the same email? ;o) >That makes sure it excludes counting itself. > >Of course, putting the group by subquery in the IN clause is a much better >answer. Can you say, deja vu? I think we covered something like this on >thelist about a month ago. > >And then you say, > >: (he said, confidently, not having bothered to test it) > >DOAH! > > >-joshua > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: >http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From joshua at alphashop.com Fri Oct 5 13:16:06 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Fri Oct 5 13:16:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: <01c14dc9$25987c00$a648149a@rudy> Message-ID: <020801c14dcb$0feffb10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> : by the way, your query is awfully hard to extend : beyond duplicates -- what would it look like if you : were trying to list all users where there were three : of them with the same email? I already said yours was better. :p -joshua From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Oct 5 13:19:00 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Oct 5 13:19:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <01f901c14dc7$7a85bc20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> from "Michele Foster" at Oct 05, 2001 01:59:28 PM Message-ID: <200110051823.MAA01888@alice.monkeyland.ca> Michele Foster writes: > I didn't include the Tip Harvester in anyway on the task list. Is > there anything specific you need done or would like help with? Things that need to be done: 1) Search function. (I suck, I haven't even started it.) 2) Production grade tip editor and list message editor. 3) Fixing the 'Next' and 'Prev' links when the tips are sorted. > I was thinking as fill in time, Matt and I could direct others on > categorizing the tips. Yah, if there isn't anything else to do. It's a very low priority. I wouldn't give out the password for the site though. All my top secret stuff is in there. Shh! Also, remember that the scripts are not meant to be robust. They're a hack so I could edit the tips in the database. (See 2 above.) Dean From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Oct 5 13:54:16 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Oct 5 13:54:16 2001 Subject: Tip Harvester .. was .. Re: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <200110051823.MAA01888@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <021201c14dcf$631564c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Thanks Dean .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Mah" | | Things that need to be done: | | 1) Search function. IMHO, too big of a task to be handled at CodeFest. However, I'll put it on the list and it can roll over to a.e.o. and get picked back up when you return from holidays. | 2) Production grade tip editor and list message editor. That's a good idea. Between Matt and I, I think we have a pretty good idea of what's required here. Are the forms processed by ColdFusion or Perl? If not CF, is there a compelling reason to change them to CF? I'll add this to the list, and we'll see what gets done. Even if the forms only get cleaned up HTML and CSS wise, that's a start in the right direction. | 3) Fixing the 'Next' and 'Prev' links when the tips are sorted. I vaguely remember this conversation. Was a solution fleshed out? Or are we still stuck at the "how do we do this" phase? | | > I was thinking as fill in time, Matt and I could direct others on | > categorizing the tips. | | Yah, if there isn't anything else to do. It's a very low priority. For sure. It's a good fill in task though, when people are waiting for something else to do. I | wouldn't give out the password for the site though. All my top secret | stuff is in there. Shh! hehe, true enough. Not to worry, Matt or I can log someone in and they can go to work. Dan will need to look after privs and all that security stuff on a grander scale anyway. Also, remember that the scripts are not | meant to be robust. They're a hack so I could edit the tips in the | database. (See 2 above.) Yeah .. I remember. :) Thanks again. Have a great trip, btw. Michele From filip at netdesign.se Fri Oct 5 17:17:13 2001 From: filip at netdesign.se (Filip Salomonsson) Date: Fri Oct 5 17:17:13 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: <3BBDEE4E.4050405@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Daniel J. Cody: > filip, do you have the images done? or should i be doing > something else? :) I sure do: http://members.evolt.org/filip/evolt/cubes/6alt_rating.zip /filip From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Oct 5 20:22:20 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Oct 5 20:22:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Tip Harvester / Code Fest Message-ID: <200110060126.TAA03020@alice.monkeyland.ca> > | 1) Search function. > > IMHO, too big of a task to be handled at CodeFest. However, I'll > put it on the list and it can roll over to a.e.o. and get picked > back up when you return from holidays. Gee thanks. :P Seriously, no problem. Most of the tip harvester stuff is a lower priority. > | 2) Production grade tip editor and list message editor. > > That's a good idea. Between Matt and I, I think we have a pretty > good idea of what's required here. Are the forms processed by > ColdFusion or Perl? Everything is in Perl. There is no compelling reason to keep them in Perl. They could be written in CF, PHP, Perl, whatever. I hate to be subjected to bad code and I know that I don't want to subject anyone to those hacked scripts; they were a rapid prototype. I'd prefer that they be re-written rather than patched. If you guys don't get around to it, I'll do it when I get back. > | 3) Fixing the 'Next' and 'Prev' links when the tips are sorted. > > I vaguely remember this conversation. Was a solution fleshed out? > Or are we still stuck at the "how do we do this" phase? I think that Rudy was looking at the SQL. It isn't a high priority task since no one has complained or seem to have noticed it. If the SQL doesn't get re-written, you can brute force a solution in the CF template. For example, re-run the entire query and pull out the prev/next IDs from the entire dataset that is brought back. > Thanks again. Have a great trip, btw. Thanks. See you guys in a couple of weeks. Dean From isaac at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 7 18:48:08 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Sun Oct 7 18:48:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <01d701c14dc3$eee48640$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > Also, I've updated the list of participants: > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/cf_attend.htm What about a column/row somewhere to outline the areas of expertise of those in attendance? Some of those names I've not seen before on thesite/thelist, etc. I was hoping to keep track of progress via IRC but we have guests from interstate arriving on that weekend. I might catch some of the Oct 14 action if it's still running when I get in to work. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Oct 7 21:55:41 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Oct 7 21:55:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] Preventing Spam on thelist References: Message-ID: <00ca01c14fa5$0d21c680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> cc'd: to thesite too Isaac, This sounds like a feasible solution, on the outset; however, can the Major be configured in such a way to do this? What do others think? Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | i think it was in the FAQ for joe crawford's web san diego list that i read | about his option to require approval of everyone's first post to the list. | sounded like a good idea (even if we needed to get some more people access | to MG to approve messages (i can't remember the password anymore, but would | happily help out if required)) to stop spam, but still allow posting from | unsubscribed members (dan has previously explained why he enables this). From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Oct 7 22:17:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Oct 7 22:17:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: Message-ID: <00da01c14fa8$1740b060$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Isaac, ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > Also, I've updated the list of participants: | > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/cf_attend.htm | | What about a column/row somewhere to outline the areas of expertise of those | in attendance? | | Some of those names I've not seen before on thesite/thelist, etc. | Well, to be honest .. I'm really over-loaded this week... so, it's going to be hard enough for me to keep up and add continue updating the task file. However, Dan knows all of the attendees fairly well... and he'll be looking after assigning what tasks to individuals and teams of individuals, based on the participants' skill set, experience level, and willingness to participate on a project. [I think, don't want to put words into Dan's mouth ;) ] | I was hoping to keep track of progress via IRC but we have guests from | interstate arriving on that weekend. I might catch some of the Oct 14 action | if it's still running when I get in to work. If you have any time to complete the tasks outlined for yourself ahead of time, that would be great. Specifically wrt the Web Business Category. Also, any ideas or suggestions on how some of the new features could look (design, css-wise), if you prepared a couple of samples, that would be really helpful too. The more we can get agreed upon, decided ahead of time, that makes the job of actually doing the coding and work that much easier. Thanks, Michele From isaac at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 7 23:09:10 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Sun Oct 7 23:09:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <00da01c14fa8$1740b060$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > If you have any time to complete the tasks outlined for yourself ahead of > time, that would be great. Specifically wrt the Web Business Category. > Also, any ideas or suggestions on how some of the new features could look > (design, css-wise), if you prepared a couple of samples, that would be > really helpful too. The more we can get agreed upon, decided > ahead of time, > that makes the job of actually doing the coding and work that much easier. What tasks are outlined for myself? I thought you might have been referring to something on AEO, but My Tasks is empty, My Jobs is empty, My Archive is empty, and "Unassigned Jobs" seems to link to the general calendar. Who is supposed to assign the tasks? A project leader, or do I store my stuff in their myself? Unfortunately, WRT the proposed Web Biz articles I'd mentioned, I got no reply from one prospective interview, and no content from someone else for the other. Quite disappointing. :( Which features did you want designs for? For the member pages, I would need the info that will (potentially) sit within them. We had talked about a silly, themed user page RPG-style, but if I recall correctly, that got written off pretty quickly. Heh. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From hblair at hotfootmail.com Sun Oct 7 23:21:40 2001 From: hblair at hotfootmail.com (Hugh Blair) Date: Sun Oct 7 23:21:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. In-Reply-To: <3BBCB7DB.2090108@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately Hugh bows out. I'm coming back from an emergency visit to California on a red-eye Friday morning, so I won't be in any shape to contribute. ...BUT... if anyone is coming into O'Hare and really needs a ride north, drop me a note and I'll make sure that I provide the transportation. I just won't be able to make this an extended/weekend visit. #($&@#$ Someday - it *will* happen. -Hugh > for a total of 9 people.. the only tenative people that I know of are > Jeff, Rudy, and Hugh correct? From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 09:23:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 09:23:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. References: Message-ID: <010101c15005$25f423a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Hugh.. That's too bad. Come up Saturday if you want. :) Thanks for the offer to drive people up from the airport. As it stands now, I'm the only one flying in and I'm landing in Milwaukee. Thanks, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Blair" | Unfortunately Hugh bows out. I'm coming back from an emergency visit | to California on a red-eye Friday morning, so I won't be in any shape | to contribute. ...BUT... if anyone is coming into O'Hare and really | needs a ride north, drop me a note and I'll make sure that I provide | the transportation. | | I just won't be able to make this an extended/weekend visit. #($&@#$ From hblair at hotfootmail.com Mon Oct 8 09:31:17 2001 From: hblair at hotfootmail.com (Hugh Blair) Date: Mon Oct 8 09:31:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest.. next weekend.. In-Reply-To: <010101c15005$25f423a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: Thanks - I just might come up, but don't count on it. This "leave now" trip will put me behind on several projects I was to complete this week - so I'll probably be working 24s this next weekend. Oh well. Besides, my skill set probably isn't the right mix to be of much help with the planned projects. Of course I could be a beer/coffee/jolt runner - I'm good at that - and get to meet all y'all. But that'll happen some day anyway. Enjoy, -Hugh > That's too bad. Come up Saturday if you want. :) > > Thanks for the offer to drive people up from the airport. As it > stands now, > I'm the only one flying in and I'm landing in Milwaukee. > > Thanks, > > Michele > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Blair" > > > | Unfortunately Hugh bows out. I'm coming back from an emergency visit > | to California on a red-eye Friday morning, so I won't be in any shape > | to contribute. ...BUT... if anyone is coming into O'Hare and really > | needs a ride north, drop me a note and I'll make sure that I provide > | the transportation. > | > | I just won't be able to make this an extended/weekend visit. #($&@#$ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 09:38:48 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 09:38:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: Message-ID: <011001c15007$4c363a60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Isaac, ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" Everything is written down in detail on this page. Tasks that do not get completed at CF will be added to a.e.o. afterwards. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm Members' pages .. I dunno if a list of possible attributes has been created or not. I'm not sure what's already in the attribute table. Here's one sample, http://neo.evolt.org/. This is old, and was created for n.e.o., NOT member's pages. A combination of the top part of this page as well as the user page off weo, I guess is what we are after. Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 10:20:15 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 10:20:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] Preventing Spam on thelist References: <00ca01c14fa5$0d21c680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BC1C1C8.3060906@starkmedia.com> good idea, but no it can't be configured ATM to do it.. .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > cc'd: to thesite too > > Isaac, > > This sounds like a feasible solution, on the outset; however, can the Major > be configured in such a way to do this? > > What do others think? > > Michele > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "isaac" > > > | i think it was in the FAQ for joe crawford's web san diego list that i > read > | about his option to require approval of everyone's first post to the list. > | sounded like a good idea (even if we needed to get some more people access > | to MG to approve messages (i can't remember the password anymore, but > would > | happily help out if required)) to stop spam, but still allow posting from > | unsubscribed members (dan has previously explained why he enables this). > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 10:44:26 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 10:44:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants Message-ID: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Folks, I've added IRC participants to the Codefest list. Anyone else going to be around this weekend? irc.evolt.org #evolt Time: approx. 12:00 EST on Saturday. Michele From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk Mon Oct 8 10:54:48 2001 From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina) Date: Mon Oct 8 10:54:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants In-Reply-To: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> References: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> Michele, :: on Monday, October 08, 2001, 4:46:58 PM, Michele wrote: :: Anyone else going to be around this weekend? i would be interested in following the chat - allbeit as a lurker - if thats okay? though does anyone know what time 12:00 EST = as BST? -- kristina kristina at kfx-design.co.uk "When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity." -- John F. Kennedy From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 11:02:39 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:02:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants References: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> Message-ID: <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hey Kristina, Plus 5 hours .. so, 5 p.m. your time. (unless you guys change your clocks this weekend, I think its next weekend (20/21??) Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "kristina" | i would be interested in following the chat - allbeit as a lurker - | if thats okay? | | though does anyone know what time 12:00 EST = as BST? | | kristina | | kristina at kfx-design.co.uk From joshua at alphashop.com Mon Oct 8 11:05:45 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:05:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants References: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> Message-ID: <008801c15014$635c83e0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> The way I always figure this stuff out is to click on the clock (in windows) and inspect the "Time Zones" It gives the offset for every timezone from GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) BST = GMT, I think. So, EST is five hours behind. -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "kristina" To: Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants : though does anyone know what time 12:00 EST = as BST? From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk Mon Oct 8 11:07:07 2001 From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:07:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants In-Reply-To: <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> References: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3031928290.20011008170942@kfx-design.co.uk> Michele, on Monday, October 08, 2001, 5:05:13 PM, Michele wrote: :: Plus 5 hours .. so, 5 p.m. your time. (unless you guys change your :: clocks this weekend, I think its next weekend (20/21??) thanks Michele - I shall try and log in for a bit - see you're doin bfn -- kristina kristina at kfx-design.co.uk "When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity." -- John F. Kennedy From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk Mon Oct 8 11:11:05 2001 From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:11:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants In-Reply-To: <008801c15014$635c83e0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> References: <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> <008801c15014$635c83e0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <2432166442.20011008171340@kfx-design.co.uk> Joshua, on Monday, October 08, 2001, 5:15:03 PM, Joshua wrote: :: is to click on the clock (in windows) heheh 'Ack' ya caught me - i'm a lazy git *grin* ;o) -- kristina kristina at kfx-design.co.uk "When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity." -- John F. Kennedy From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 11:13:28 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:13:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <011001c15007$4c363a60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BC1CE42.4060208@starkmedia.com> speaking of, do any of the more graphics/design slanted people wanna take a shot at working with whats below and making a mock up or two for what a member page could look like? if we can get something down before this weekend, its alot easier to get that part of it done :) just wondering.. .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Isaac, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "isaac" > > > Everything is written down in detail on this page. Tasks that do not get > completed at CF will be added to a.e.o. afterwards. > > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm > > > Members' pages .. I dunno if a list of possible attributes has been created > or not. I'm not sure what's already in the attribute table. Here's one > sample, http://neo.evolt.org/. This is old, and was created for n.e.o., NOT > member's pages. A combination of the top part of this page as well as the > user page off weo, I guess is what we are after. From skaiser1 at skdesigns.com Mon Oct 8 11:14:47 2001 From: skaiser1 at skdesigns.com (Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:14:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants In-Reply-To: <3031928290.20011008170942@kfx-design.co.uk> References: <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008090622.035bf260@mail.midtown.net> At 09:09 AM 10/08/2001, kristina responded: >Michele, > >on Monday, October 08, 2001, 5:05:13 PM, Michele wrote: > >:: Plus 5 hours .. so, 5 p.m. your time. (unless you guys change your >:: clocks this weekend, I think its next weekend (20/21??) > >thanks Michele - I shall try and log in for a bit - see you're doin Ah, this is great. I'm in California, so I'll be checking in, too. Thanks! Warmly, Shirley -- Shirley E. Kaiser, M.A. SKDesigns mailto:skaiser at skdesigns.com Website Design, Development http://www.skdesigns.com/ Brainstorms and Raves http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/ Pianist, Composer http://www.shirleykaiser.com/ Moderator, I-Design http://www.adventive.com/lists/idesign/summary.html From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 11:18:12 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:18:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <3BC1CE42.4060208@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200110081618.f98GIBIM002865@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > speaking of, do any of the more graphics/design slanted people wanna > take a shot at working with whats below and making a mock up or two > for what a member page could look like? sure. as of now, and i do mean right now, it appears i won't be coming, either... i'm sorry i've kept it in the air this long, but this has been an insane month... between a trade show, some projects that are high priority, a few new projects, new staff, back-logged work, etc., i just can't take the weekend to not be in the office... From miriam at dynagirl.com Mon Oct 8 11:19:06 2001 From: miriam at dynagirl.com (Miriam) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:19:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <011001c15007$4c363a60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BC1CE42.4060208@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <012c01c15015$21a01880$79cff3cd@walthers.com> You bet, I can try a few things... Glad to see there's more for the designy people to do besides serve beer and coffee! (Not that I would mind doing that, either..) > speaking of, do any of the more graphics/design slanted people wanna > take a shot at working with whats below and making a mock up or two for > what a member page could look like? > .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 11:39:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:39:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] specific LOTTD Message-ID: <3BC1D463.8060100@starkmedia.com> mostly ripped from the task list mich put up for codefest.. for those that wont be here i hve some questions for you speciifcally about a couple things so work can go on(with your opinion/way of doing it taken into account) even though you're sadly not here(i've marked shit i'll be taking with my initials): w.e.o. and t.e.o. [Bug] Comments in Print View [Bug] Job Category - Sidebar item of Recent Jobs is not being displayed on both t.e.o. or w.e.o., regardless of User Priv ID? djc [Bug] Fix RSS/XML Feed - Query is pulling a month's (30 days?) worth of records when it should only be pulling the last week (according to the SQL). (Or, we can change it to pull the most recent, and specify what number that should be - 5 or 10 or ?) djc [To Do] Re-validate HTML pages. Check that DocType and CharSet have been specified and are correct. Make modifications as required in order to validate the pages. aardvark - are we validating to HTML 4.0 or HTML 4.01 Specifications? [New Feature] Activate Web Business Category on live site. iSac - send a complete list of all articles he wants moved, as well as write an intro paragraph/article for this category. Or do you want to wait on this till you have more articles, etc..? [New Feature] Complete list of highest rated articles linked from [More] under Highest Rated Articles (on the sidebar). djc [New Feature] Other Articles Written by this Author. rudy: any shit with the DB we need to do for this? anyone: where should this go?(on the bottom probably, but where?) anyone: how does the last 5 articles sorted by max rating sound? [New Feature] Tracking Article Views (i.e. This article has been viewed X times.). anyone: have suggestions on where this information should appear within the article page view? anyone: is this a good feature(old articles are at a disadvantage), if so could we doa 'since 12-Oct-2001' or something? rudy: whats your opinion where the DB should store this? [New Feature] Category descriptions on category front pages. jeff: is everything pretty much good to go on this?(codewise that is) i'm assuming not, can you just gimme a quickie overview of what your thoughts are on how to do this? appreciate it :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 11:46:30 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:46:30 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: Message-ID: <3BC1D5FF.8030408@starkmedia.com> ok, they're up there now.. http://test.evolt.org/article/foo/18/14332/index.html if they're ok, let me know and i'll move them up to the live box.. if not, let me know what else to change :) thanks :) .djc. Filip Salomonsson wrote: > Daniel J. Cody: > >>filip, do you have the images done? or should i be doing >>something else? :) >> > > I sure do: > http://members.evolt.org/filip/evolt/cubes/6alt_rating.zip > > /filip > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 11:51:35 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:51:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <200110081618.f98GIBIM002865@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BC1D731.1010602@starkmedia.com> aardvark wrote: >>From: "Daniel J. Cody" >> >>speaking of, do any of the more graphics/design slanted people wanna >>take a shot at working with whats below and making a mock up or two >>for what a member page could look like? >> > > sure. > > as of now, and i do mean right now, it appears i won't be coming, > either... doh! i had my leather pants all ready to go too :( just respond to that email i sent out a bit ago about specific tasks so i know what to do for the stuff you're in charge of.. also, gonan be on IRC or no? > i'm sorry i've kept it in the air this long, but this has been an insane > month... between a trade show, some projects that are high > priority, a few new projects, new staff, back-logged work, etc., i just > can't take the weekend to not be in the office... understand From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 12:31:40 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 8 12:31:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] specific LOTTD In-Reply-To: <3BC1D463.8060100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > [Bug] Job Category - Sidebar item of Recent Jobs is > not being displayed on both t.e.o. or w.e.o., > regardless of User Priv ID? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think it's just commented out. don't ask me why though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [To Do] Re-validate HTML pages. Check that DocType and > CharSet have been specified and are correct. > Make modifications as required in order to > validate the pages. > > aardvark - are we validating to HTML 4.0 or HTML 4.01 > Specifications? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm not aardvark, but i'm sure he'll say 4.01. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [New Feature] Complete list of highest rated articles > linked from [More] under Highest Rated Articles (on > the sidebar). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< depending on how we want this to work, it might be as easy as making the ORDER BY clause of the homepage query dynamic. set it up to use a url variable and then have the [more] link pass rating DESC (url encoded) as the sort value. that would eliminate having to create an entire new display for this info. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > djc > > [New Feature] Other Articles Written by this Author. > > anyone: where should this go?(on the bottom probably, > but where?) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm thinking below rating and above comments. i'd thought at the very bottom, but that would push it much too far down if there were very many comments. besides, comments are an extension of the article, not part of it. therefore, they shouldn't come before data pertinent to the article and its author. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > anyone: how does the last 5 articles sorted by max > rating sound? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sounds good to me. we might also wanna take number of comments into consideration as well. additionally, we should probably ignore articles in certain categories like faq, jobs, suggestions, and news. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [New Feature] Tracking Article Views (i.e. This article > has been viewed X times.). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< will we be preloading this column in the database on a per article basis from numbers in the web logs? or, will we be starting every article at 0? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > anyone: have suggestions on where this information > should appear within the article page view? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< below print article? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > anyone: is this a good feature(old articles are at a > disadvantage), if so could we doa 'since > 12-Oct-2001' or something? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'd rather there was a concerted effort to incorporate numbers from the web logs. 'since 12-oct-2001' just takes up space and becomes more irrelevant each day we get further away from that date. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > rudy: whats your opinion where the DB should store this? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm not rudy, but i think it should be a column in the content table. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [New Feature] Category descriptions on category front > pages. > > jeff: is everything pretty much good to go on this? > (codewise that is) i'm assuming not, can you > just gimme a quickie overview of what your > thoughts are on how to do this? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, it's pretty simple really. i believe there's a query that gets the name of the category when you're viewing articles within a category. just add the new column (is it 'description', rudy?) to that query and output it at the top of the content, just before outputting the list of articles. i'll be around for part of the fun this weekend via irc. i'll also try to have a webcam set up so those that want to can watch. would be cool if you could do the same at codefest proper. i really wish i could have been there. however, with tara being dilated 1cm for the past week, i don't think it'd be a good idea. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 13:35:47 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:35:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] oracle coming down for a minute.. Message-ID: <3BC1EF9C.3000605@starkmedia.com> need to bring the oracle box down in about 5 minutes for about 2 minutes to get a new kernel loaded to increase performance :) weeeee .djc. From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 13:44:22 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:44:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] specific LOTTD In-Reply-To: References: <3BC1D463.8060100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200110081844.f98IiLIM013651@leo.evolt.org> > From: ".jeff" > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > [To Do] Re-validate HTML pages. Check that DocType and > > CharSet have been specified and are correct. > > Make modifications as required in order to > > validate the pages. > > > > aardvark - are we validating to HTML 4.0 or HTML 4.01 > > Specifications? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i'm not aardvark, but i'm sure he'll say 4.01. correct... there's no good reason to use 4.0, especially since even the W3C considers 4.01 to be a fix to 4.0 (allowing 'name' attributes, other things they forgot)... and it *is* the latest version of HTML... (XHTML is XML) From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 13:44:24 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:44:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <3BC1D731.1010602@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200110081844.f98IiNIM013649@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > doh! i had my leather pants all ready to go too :( damn, you don't know how much i'd like to see that... and without .jeff there, it's up to you to mix leather and pleather... > just respond to that email i sent out a bit ago about specific tasks > so i know what to do for the stuff you're in charge of.. also, gonan > be on IRC or no? will try, but saturday is right out... looks now like i have to go to rochester for a client... ugh... anyway, um, i'll see what i can do, and i'll look over that list... From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 13:49:03 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:49:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] oracle coming down for a minute.. References: <3BC1EF9C.3000605@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BC1F2B8.7080505@starkmedia.com> alrighty.. everything back to normal with the front page coming in about 750msec faster :) .djc. Daniel J. Cody wrote: > need to bring the oracle box down in about 5 minutes for about 2 minutes > to get a new kernel loaded to increase performance :) > > weeeee > > .djc. > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 13:55:06 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:55:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] specific LOTTD References: <3BC1D463.8060100@starkmedia.com> <200110081844.f98IiLIM013651@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BC1F423.2060208@starkmedia.com> ok, i've updated that on t.e.o with lemme know if anything else needs to be changed, and thanks .djc. aardvark wrote: > correct... there's no good reason to use 4.0, especially since even > the W3C considers 4.01 to be a fix to 4.0 (allowing 'name' > attributes, other things they forgot)... From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 13:56:10 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:56:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <200110081844.f98IiNIM013649@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BC1F464.8040004@starkmedia.com> aardvark wrote: >>From: "Daniel J. Cody" >> >>doh! i had my leather pants all ready to go too :( >> > > damn, you don't know how much i'd like to see that... and without > .jeff there, it's up to you to mix leather and pleather... no, i *do* know how much you'd like to see that ;) > anyway, um, i'll see what i can do, and i'll look over that list... sounds good, thankz0rez!! .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 13:58:26 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 13:58:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: IRC Participants References: <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <014501c15010$773efcc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <11031187675.20011008165721@kfx-design.co.uk> <015001c15013$038da620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20011008090622.035bf260@mail.midtown.net> Message-ID: <3BC1F4EC.60604@starkmedia.com> sounds good shirley, the more the merrier after all.. chat with ya this saturday :) .djc. Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns wrote: >> thanks Michele - I shall try and log in for a bit - see you're doin > > > Ah, this is great. I'm in California, so I'll be checking in, too. Thanks! From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 14:46:07 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 14:46:07 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <3BC1D5FF.8030408@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BC20018.8060907@starkmedia.com> front page on t.e.o is validating now.. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://test.evolt.org/ there were a number of non-SGML characters that it was puking on(… being the most common one to do the "..." after the first 20 characters of titles in the sidebars), changing those to their regular counterparts let everything slide through and validate. simple article pages http://test.evolt.org/article/NASA_switches_from_Oracle_to_mySQL/1/4994/index.html are also going through without problems any questions, give a shout .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 14:53:21 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 8 14:53:21 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: <3BC20018.8060907@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > front page on t.e.o is validating now.. > http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://test.evolt.org/ > > there were a number of non-SGML characters that it was > puking on(… being the most common one to do the > "..." after the first 20 characters of titles in the > sidebars), changing those to their regular counterparts > let everything slide through and validate. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i purposely used … in place of three periods because i liked the spacing better. is there any way we can use the ellipses and have it validate? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 15:02:53 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 15:02:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. References: <0a84000531705a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BC20407.9070200@starkmedia.com> merrily? i'm not saying that we just walk in and zap a shitload of accounts. in fact, i was happy we had so much talk over what the best way to query for them was. if an account has the same email address, i'd call that a genuine reduadant duplicate(?). we'll know which ones they are because the query will tell us. if a person hasn't logged back in to evolt within a year, i think its safe to say that they won't have a reaction because they'd probably forgot about us/their accounts/ in the first place, no? .djc. Martin wrote: >>looks like we have 175 duplicate email's in our user table.. just >>thought you may be interested :) >> > > And before we think about merrily deleting the dupes, can we > please have a think about a data constitution? Are we assuming > that they're genuine redundant duplicates? How will we know > which ones are? How will we let people know what we're doing? > What will their reaction be? How do we cater for people who > (for whatever reason - some no doubt genuine) *want* dupe > accounts? From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 15:07:11 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 15:07:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] jobs cat? References: <004a01c14cd9$33bb1f40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BC20509.3050207@starkmedia.com> fixed on t.e.o .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Yup, same result on teo. I dunno why that is though. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 8 15:10:26 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 8 15:10:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <200110051823.MAA01888@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <3BC205CB.2050709@starkmedia.com> mich, just so i can keep track of stuff, these are going to be handed to jeremy this weekend right? .djc. Dean Mah wrote: > Michele Foster writes: > > >>I didn't include the Tip Harvester in anyway on the task list. Is >>there anything specific you need done or would like help with? >> > > Things that need to be done: > > 1) Search function. (I suck, I haven't even started it.) > 2) Production grade tip editor and list message editor. > 3) Fixing the 'Next' and 'Prev' links when the tips are sorted. > > > >>I was thinking as fill in time, Matt and I could direct others on >>categorizing the tips. >> > > Yah, if there isn't anything else to do. It's a very low priority. I > wouldn't give out the password for the site though. All my top secret > stuff is in there. Shh! Also, remember that the scripts are not > meant to be robust. They're a hack so I could edit the tips in the > database. (See 2 above.) From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 19:10:32 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:10:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <011001c15007$4c363a60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm OK, as much as I still think Web Business is a good idea, I'd like to put it on hold until I (or whoever else) has time to get some new articles in there for the launch (with the older ones too). > member's pages. A combination of the top part of this page as well as the > user page off weo, I guess is what we are after. Why not the bottom part? (portfolio, etc). I think that could be cool. Also, the recently updated bit is a good idea. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 19:23:50 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:23:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: Message-ID: <00a201c15058$f9160ac0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm | | OK, as much as I still think Web Business is a good idea, I'd like to put it | on hold until I (or whoever else) has time to get some new articles in there | for the launch (with the older ones too). Ok, this is the first I've heard of this... and to be honest, I disagree with you on this one. Why delay it, we already have a bunch of articles for it. There have been a few very good articles of late, that really belong in this new catetgory. This is your idea Isaac, it's already received consensus from thesite and Admin. If you want to pull the proposed new category off the table, I really think you should get consensus again. I don't think it's fair for you to unilaterally decide that now you don't want it. So, if it needs to be brought up again, let's do it. | | > member's pages. A combination of the top part of this page as well as the | > user page off weo, I guess is what we are after. | | Why not the bottom part? (portfolio, etc). | | I think that could be cool. Also, the recently updated bit is a good idea. Doesn't matter to me. Need to check with Rudy (or Jeff) on the attributes table and how that fits into it. As I said, that page (http://neo.evolt.org) was just a sample that Erik Mattheis created for n.e.o. I'm pretty sure the member attribute table isn't set up to accept long fields (or whatever its called in oracle). Plus, don't forget that each attribute (not yet defined) isn't a required field. The user gets to pick which attributes they would like to appear on their members' page. That's my understanding of it .. anyone else? Michele From isaac at triplezero.com.au Mon Oct 8 19:25:59 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:25:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: Hey, To help myself and others hoping to do some layout for the user pages, can we work to establish final (optional) data? Here's what I have, based on the current user page, and neo.evolt.org: VITAL INFO: username full name birthday member since (Does lastlogin work for people who use 'remember me'?) primary URL primary email primary phone number other contact details (could be a textarea input to allow maximum flexibility for input of international addresses, etc). EMPLOYMENT SITUATION: resum? link (.doc, .rtf, .html or whatever) skill listing and competence levels situation (textarea allowing paragraph about looking for a job, or freelancing, or wanting writing opportunities, or whatever) EVOLT PARTICIPATION: articles written comments written (tips written?) other (admin-managed textarea which allows input of other stuff like: "Joe User has been the project leader and primary contributor for the evolt.org project Blahblah. He has also participated in 2 codefests, providing PHP experience." (thoughts on this one specifically?) PORTFOLIO (or another word? - "EXPERIENCE"?): (up to 5 or 10 examples?, each with title, url, description.) link to full portfolio (if applicable). Could be used as a portfolio for freelancers, or to list companies worked at for others? Anything else? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 19:36:13 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:36:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <00a201c15058$f9160ac0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > Ok, this is the first I've heard of this... and to be honest, I disagree I emailed recently to say that the new articles that were lined up had fallen through. > with you on this one. Why delay it, we already have a bunch of > articles for > it. There have been a few very good articles of late, that > really belong in > this new catetgory. This is your idea Isaac, it's already received > consensus from thesite and Admin. If you want to pull the proposed new > category off the table, I really think you should get consensus again. I > don't think it's fair for you to unilaterally decide that now you > don't want > it. So, if it needs to be brought up again, let's do it. OK, go with the articles you'd like to put in. I'd just assumed that we were waiting on a list of old articles *and* specific new ones that I'd proposed. I remember that you were hesitant to get the new cat running without those fresh articles, but if we have other new ones, that's cool. I have no problem with that. > long fields (or whatever its called in oracle). Plus, don't forget that > each attribute (not yet defined) isn't a required field. The user gets to > pick which attributes they would like to appear on their members' page. Yes, most of them are optional. That's been the plan from the very beginning. See other thread I've started for more info on working this out. isaac From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 19:53:21 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:53:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: Message-ID: <00af01c1505d$199bb520$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > Ok, this is the first I've heard of this... and to be honest, I disagree | | I emailed recently to say that the new articles that were lined up had | fallen through. Yes, I saw that .. I didn't realize this category was dependent on those articles. We discussed a couple of weeks back, I think it was Martin that provided it, a list of articles to be moved.. and asking that you add to that list. Are you going to create the intro article for this category? Not a big deal, as I'll be writing up the category definitions that are to appear at the top of each category page. But, if you had text prepared, that would save me doing that one. | | > with you on this one. Why delay it, we already have a bunch of | > articles for | > it. There have been a few very good articles of late, that | > really belong in | > this new catetgory. This is your idea Isaac, it's already received | > consensus from thesite and Admin. If you want to pull the proposed new | > category off the table, I really think you should get consensus again. I | > don't think it's fair for you to unilaterally decide that now you | > don't want | > it. So, if it needs to be brought up again, let's do it. | | OK, go with the articles you'd like to put in. These are not articles *I* want put in .. specifically. I'm just trying to help move this "idea" of yours along and get it live. I'm not going through and picking the articles to be moved. I'd just assumed that we were | waiting on a list of old articles *and* specific new ones that I'd proposed. | I remember that you were hesitant to get the new cat running without those | fresh articles, but if we have other new ones, that's cool. I have no | problem with that. Right .. and we talked about it on Admin, and consensus was that it was good to start the category with the proposed new articles. What we need at codefest is that specific list, so that once the category is Live on w.e.o., someone can immediately go through the supplied list, and change the existing article categories. I realize that with the time zone differences, its difficult coordinating efforts here. Dan (and/or Rudy) have to be around at the same as you are to flip the switch on the category then you can move articles. I just figured it would be easier to do it at CF. | | > long fields (or whatever its called in oracle). Plus, don't forget that | > each attribute (not yet defined) isn't a required field. The user gets to | > pick which attributes they would like to appear on their members' page. | | Yes, most of them are optional. That's been the plan from the very | beginning. See other thread I've started for more info on working this out. | Yeah, optional is a good thing. I just don't know what the limitations DB limits are set at. And, I'm not sure we'd want to have long fields as attributes. However, Rudy can comment on this and provide more insight and possible working methodology for this. I saw your other message, my understanding is that only the top part of that info would actually work/fit into the existing structure. Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 19:59:01 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:59:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List References: <00af01c1505d$199bb520$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <00b601c1505d$e3dd5b40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Ooops | Right .. and we talked about it on Admin, and consensus was that it was good | to start the category with the proposed new articles. What we need at | codefest is that specific list, so that once the category is Live on w.e.o., | someone can immediately go through the supplied list, and change the | existing article categories. My apologies .. the above is confusing. DELETE "proposed" new articles .. I meant the two recent articles that were written that we've slated for this new category.. one is Martin's the other is .. I can't remember .. copyright law and you ? Thinking too quickly here. Anyway, I'm off to mid-day Wednesday. Talk to ya'll then. Mich From r937 at interlog.com Mon Oct 8 20:09:17 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:09:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: <01c1505f$3f26b0e0$LocalHost@rudy> >Anything else? yes, anything the user wants to store the database is ready, but it is meant to be generic, to be content driven so all that has to be designed is [Section] [Attribute] [Value] [Remarks] rather than the actual thingies that you listed in your note, isaac these member attributes and values and so on would be listed in Seq sequence and be subject to Priv privacy, a very important part of the usability spec for member pages (i want to show my phone number, but let only admins see it) what erik did for neo is compatible with the above design, but i suspect it was all hardcoded -- are you here erik? or does any know if neo is database driven? rudy From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 8 20:17:03 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:17:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data References: <01c1505f$3f26b0e0$LocalHost@rudy> Message-ID: <00bd01c15060$68c66700$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy" | | what erik did for neo is compatible with the above design, but i suspect it | was all hardcoded -- are you here erik? or does any know if neo is database | driven? Sample page only in HTML .. no changes were ever made to the DB to incorporate any of this. Mich From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 20:17:22 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:17:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List In-Reply-To: <00af01c1505d$199bb520$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > of each category page. But, if you had text prepared, that would save me > doing that one. Sorry, I do not have any introductory text for you to build on. > These are not articles *I* want put in .. specifically. I'm just > trying to > help move this "idea" of yours along and get it live. I'm not > going through and picking the articles to be moved. As you've said, Martin has provided a list. > Yeah, optional is a good thing. I just don't know what the limitations DB > limits are set at. And, I'm not sure we'd want to have long fields as > attributes. However, Rudy can comment on this and provide more > insight and possible working methodology for this. Well, we are able to create new fields in the DB, so existing limitations are largely irrelevant. I'll leave Rudy or Dan to add their thoughts about the flexibility of textareas for some content, vs impact on the database of larger fields, etc. > I saw your other message, my understanding is that only the top > part of that info would actually work/fit into the existing structure. Yeh, but like I said, we've been planning changes to that existing structure for a very long time, so let's revive that discussion. Rudy, where are you? isaac From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 20:28:46 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:28:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <01c1505f$3f26b0e0$LocalHost@rudy> Message-ID: Rudy, > >Anything else? > > yes, anything the user wants to store Are we allowing the user to store *anything*, or are we providing a set of options, and they can choose which ones they'd like to show (and to whom)? If the latter, what will exist within that set? These are questions to everyone on this list (regular contributor or not, so lurkers -- speak up! :)): - Would you use an evolt user page? - What would you want to put up there? (personal info? job hunting? portfolio examples? other?) - Other thoughts? My personal thoughts: - I'd set up my user page. I'd not expect to need to update it very regularly. - I'd put up some personal info, my employment status, my participation within evolt.org, and some examples of my work. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 20:52:37 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:52:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: References: <01c1505f$3f26b0e0$LocalHost@rudy> Message-ID: <3BC22083.14969.1C9D88B5@localhost> > From: "isaac" [...] > These are questions to everyone on this list (regular contributor or > not, so lurkers -- speak up! :)): > > - Would you use an evolt user page? yes > - What would you want to put up there? (personal info? job hunting? > portfolio examples? other?) it had better have my list of articles, it will have a link to my personal site, and perhaps a picture of me in my leather pants... > - Other thoughts? ever see Yahoo profiles? i'm thinking we need a line item that offers one of the following: - single - married - single and looking - insanely desperate - would even date aardvark - shoot me > My personal thoughts: > > - I'd set up my user page. I'd not expect to need to update it very > regularly. +1... but it needs the pic of you in the bunny ears... > - I'd put up some personal info, my employment status, my > participation within evolt.org, and some examples of my work. article link for me... employment status is moot... so, i'm probably not the best example, since i'd use the most basic features... i could see something like a personal version of firmlist.com, or is that way too much info? From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 21:03:22 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 21:03:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <3BC22083.14969.1C9D88B5@localhost> Message-ID: > ever see Yahoo profiles? No, I don't visit Yahoo. > +1... but it needs the pic of you in the bunny ears... Oh yeah, I forgot the picture. That would go in the VITAL INFO section. > article link for me... employment status is moot... Would be useful to perhaps solicit work still. For example, I'd offer design services to anyone who needed them. > i could see something like a personal version of firmlist.com, or is > that way too much info? Do I have to go and look or can you summarise for me? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 21:35:11 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 8 21:35:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: References: <3BC22083.14969.1C9D88B5@localhost> Message-ID: <3BC22A7E.17765.1CC48708@localhost> > From: "isaac" > > > ever see Yahoo profiles? > > No, I don't visit Yahoo. ok... maybe it's time to start... there really is a profile named foo... http://profiles.yahoo.com/foo name, real name, geographic location, age, marital status, gender, occupation, pic, links, quote, interests... > > i could see something like a personal version of firmlist.com, or is > > that way too much info? > > Do I have to go and look or can you summarise for me? lazy bum... here's a sample: http://us.firmlist.com/firms/algonquinstudios.shtml brief blurb, founded date, # staff, # locations, logo, list of services, list of specialties, list of technologies, languages, contact info, selected projects... From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 8 22:04:25 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 8 22:04:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <3BC22A7E.17765.1CC48708@localhost> Message-ID: > > No, I don't visit Yahoo. > there really is a profile named foo... > http://profiles.yahoo.com/foo Ugly. > name, real name, geographic location, age, marital status, gender, > occupation, pic, links, quote, interests... You desperately want dating.evolt.org, don't you? > here's a sample: > http://us.firmlist.com/firms/algonquinstudios.shtml > brief blurb, founded date, # staff, # locations, logo, list of services, > list of specialties, list of technologies, languages, contact info, > selected projects... Brief blurb is appropriate, founded date = date joined. We don't need staff/loc/logo. Skill set/services could be a textarea (easier for users to input data than 50 little inputs). Contact info, yeh. And selected projects = portfolio. I think this is generally covered by my original list. The flexibility of a textarea for something like career status and personal contact info would allow you to describe your business and offer any services. isaac From Ron.Luther at compaq.com Tue Oct 9 07:34:39 2001 From: Ron.Luther at compaq.com (Luther, Ron) Date: Tue Oct 9 07:34:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A060145F315@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Hi Isaac, I'm sure there are lots of interesting ways to go with this ... My own thoughts were more along the lines of a set of SIGS. Something kinda link "Here are some links to some pages where .jeff is playing with JS, some pages where PPK is playing with CSS, some pages where Rudy is fooling with the SQL-moon, etc." Examples and playgrounds kind of thing rather than resumes, hobbies, and pictures of the kids. (Which is, (after reflection), mostly what *I* have on the web! ) I dunno ... just seemed more "evolt" to me somehow. RonL. -----Original Message----- From: isaac [mailto:isaac at members.evolt.org] Subject: RE: [thesite] User page data These are questions to everyone on this list (regular contributor or not, so lurkers -- speak up! :)): - Would you use an evolt user page? - What would you want to put up there? (personal info? job hunting? portfolio examples? other?) - Other thoughts? My personal thoughts: - I'd set up my user page. I'd not expect to need to update it very regularly. - I'd put up some personal info, my employment status, my participation within evolt.org, and some examples of my work. From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Tue Oct 9 09:01:36 2001 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Tue Oct 9 09:01:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] BUG: aeo jobs functionality Message-ID: Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- Hola Looking for the place to add new jobs in aeo (specifically to put in writing the description for the web business category), and everything which seems to point to jobs is giving me 404 errors. Whassupwitdat? Cheers Martin --------------------- End of message text -------------------- This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 13:00:18 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:00:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] sync t.e.o -> w.e.o Message-ID: <3BC33B1B.2010201@starkmedia.com> moved all the changes from jeff/filip/me/everyone else to live just now. everything looks ok(refresh the cubes if they look funny) except on mozilla, i'm seeing a huge grey bar at the top of the black tab.. anyone else? ideas? .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 13:11:16 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:11:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] sync t.e.o -> w.e.o References: <3BC33B1B.2010201@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BC33DAE.7060604@starkmedia.com> ok, apparently this is because of the we added to get up to 4.01 HTML.. i changed it back on w.e.o for now, you can still see the problem on test.evolt.org though.. any thoughts, ideas for the HTML/CSS/design folks? .djc. Daniel J. Cody wrote: > except on mozilla, i'm seeing a huge grey bar at the top of the black > tab.. anyone else? ideas? From lbenne01 at tufts.edu Tue Oct 9 13:13:27 2001 From: lbenne01 at tufts.edu (Louis P Bennett) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:13:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] sync t.e.o -> w.e.o In-Reply-To: <3BC33DAE.7060604@starkmedia.com> References: <3BC33B1B.2010201@starkmedia.com> <3BC33DAE.7060604@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: generally, if you drop the URL, things work better. e.g. -louis >ok, apparently this is because of the >"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd"> > >we added to get up to 4.01 HTML.. i changed it back on w.e.o for >now, you can still see the problem on test.evolt.org though.. any >thoughts, ideas for the HTML/CSS/design folks? From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 13:16:20 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:16:20 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: Message-ID: <3BC33EDE.5060009@starkmedia.com> jeffz0rez - not sure man.. i'm really not much of an ace at the compliance/html/css stuff, but i'd imagine someone here is ? .djc. .jeff wrote: > i purposely used … in place of three periods because i liked the > spacing better. is there any way we can use the ellipses and have it > validate? From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 13:18:39 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:18:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] sync t.e.o -> w.e.o References: <3BC33B1B.2010201@starkmedia.com> <3BC33DAE.7060604@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BC33F69.20309@starkmedia.com> Nice call Louis :) apparently, its case sensative too.. thanks again :) .djc. Louis P Bennett wrote: > generally, if you drop the URL, things work better. > > e.g. > > > -louis > >> ok, apparently this is because of the >> > "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd"> >> >> we added to get up to 4.01 HTML.. i changed it back on w.e.o for now, >> you can still see the problem on test.evolt.org though.. any thoughts, >> ideas for the HTML/CSS/design folks? From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 13:50:25 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:50:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] rudy, this may intersest you.. Message-ID: <0b87450521809a1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 8/10/01 8:52 pm >merrily? Sorry, loose terminology. My mistake. >i'm not saying that we just walk in and zap a shitload of accounts. in >fact, i was happy we had so much talk over what the best way to query >for them was. Just as I'd expect. >if an account has the same email address, i'd call that a genuine >reduadant duplicate(?). we'll know which ones they are because the query >will tell us. if a person hasn't logged back in to evolt within a year, >i think its safe to say that they won't have a reaction because they'd >probably forgot about us/their accounts/ in the first place, no? Sounds reasonable. I'd like to do a quick notification email in advance tho', giving people a day or 2 to complain. As long as it's got a fair explanation ("tidying up, noticed you had 2, think this one's redundant - that's OK, right?"), I don't expect more than one or 2 muted reactions. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 13:54:05 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:54:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Proposed Task List Message-ID: <0318b30561809a1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Michele Foster wrote on 9/10/01 1:26 am >| OK, as much as I still think Web Business is a good idea, I'd like to put >it >| on hold until I (or whoever else) has time to get some new articles in >there >| for the launch (with the older ones too). > > >Ok, this is the first I've heard of this... and to be honest, I disagree >with you on this one. Why delay it, we already have a bunch of articles for >it. +1 >There have been a few very good articles of late, that really belong in >this new catetgory. This is your idea Isaac, it's already received >consensus from thesite and Admin. If you want to pull the proposed new >category off the table, I really think you should get consensus again. I'd be a strong +1 if it were a 'the whole idea sucks' - could it just move down the priority a bit? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 14:47:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 14:47:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] new sourceforge page.. Message-ID: <3BC35443.6020708@starkmedia.com> i got a little bit motivated today and updated the page for the evolt cms on sourceforge to reflect our usuall look and feel. the language is a bit choppy ATM, but that'll be worked on. http://thecode.sourceforge.net if anyone has suggestions or would like to be the owner of that page, let me know and we'll get ya set up :) .djc. From djc at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 15:33:53 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 15:33:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] evolt.org cms updated.. Message-ID: <3BC35D90.2060007@members.evolt.org> (sorry about all the BCC's) The evolt.org content managment sourcecode has been updated and released. http://thecode.sf.net New features for the 0.6 release include *complete* HTML 4.01 validation, 'power cubes' for article submissions, and numerous bug fixes. As always, contributions of *every* sort are welcomed, and questions can be directed at 'thesite' list, http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite - or thesite-at-lists.evolt.org Thanks to all those who've contributed!! (listed in the CREDITS file) .djc. From javier at msm.cl Tue Oct 9 15:44:20 2001 From: javier at msm.cl (mantruc) Date: Tue Oct 9 15:44:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] evolt.org CodeFest 2001 - (non) participant bios (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3BC361EF.6BFB8FD3@msm.cl> hi i'm javier and i come from the "third world" [ which happens to feel quite cozy in these tense times :( ] i'm a Comunicologist minoring in Graphics Design and i like to study everything about the web, specially how it affects people's lives and society in general http://evolt.org/article/The_User_s_META_Experience/25/14494/index.html i did some web development and i'm curently a full time AI in a market that still doesn't "get" the value of pre-production design (or the user?s experience in general) so i'm some kind of Quixote fighting windmills i walked my first baby steps in web dev by the hand of the people who founded evolt, so i was part of this from the beginning my main role on evolt is idea-tossing (brainstorming) and mail answering, though i've written some articles too http://evolt.org/user/mantruc/138/index.html i've been very distant from [thelist] and [thesite] this last year so i wouldn't be surpised if you asked yourself "where did this guy come from?" or you could call me a "honorary member" and i wouldn't mind, however i love being part of this i hate not being able to go to codefest and get my hands dirty into our site... i'm just thousands of miles away i've been married for a year (very happily indeed) and my non work activities are photography, mountainbike, birdwatching, cacti gardening and i love to go trekking in my beautiful country - there's also a tourist guide within me waiting for evolters to visit Chile :) -- Javier Velasco M. - nurun Chile Information Architect - http://www.nurun.cl ----------------------- -------------------------- -- Personal: http://mantruc.com -- -- Member of http://evolt.org -- From javier at msm.cl Tue Oct 9 15:56:37 2001 From: javier at msm.cl (mantruc) Date: Tue Oct 9 15:56:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] evolt.org CodeFest 2001 - (non) participant bios (fwd) References: <3BC361EF.6BFB8FD3@msm.cl> Message-ID: <3BC364CA.14E454F5@msm.cl> forgot: i'm 26 y/o (only for a couple more weeks) i'm also an "idealist" [i think that's a requirement for being part of evolt: giving 2+ hours a day to it while risking our jobs ;) ] -- Javier Velasco M. - nurun Chile Information Architect - http://www.nurun.cl ----------------------- -------------------------- -- Personal: http://mantruc.com -- -- Member of http://evolt.org -- From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 16:21:35 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Oct 9 16:21:35 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: <3BC33EDE.5060009@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> if it doesn't validate, it doesn't validate... use something else, or use three periods... the other option is that we make exceptions to our validation... > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > not sure man.. i'm really not much of an ace at the > compliance/html/css stuff, but i'd imagine someone here is ? > > > i purposely used … in place of three periods because i liked > > the spacing better. is there any way we can use the ellipses and > > have it validate? From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 18:22:12 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:22:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <8958135993102D479F1CA2351F370A060145F315@cceexc17.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-ID: > Examples and playgrounds kind of thing rather than resumes, hobbies, and > pictures of the kids. (Which is, (after reflection), mostly what *I* > have on the web! ) > > I dunno ... just seemed more "evolt" to me somehow. That's true, but evolt.org is a lot of things to a lot of people. If we can cater for a variety of popular uses, I think that'd be cool. The portfolio section could handle this. You could point to Jeff's JS page with a Title, URL, and Description. You'd just want to change the "portfolio" or "work experience" subtitle to "Interesting links" or something, right? Thanks for the response Ron. :) Anyone else? Even if you'd use it in the same way as Ron, Adrian, or myself, I'd still appreciate your thoughts. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 18:27:19 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:27:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] new sourceforge page.. In-Reply-To: <3BC35443.6020708@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > http://thecode.sourceforge.net looks good. visited link colour in right sidebar is almost impossible to read though. Changes: "Its written in" to "It's written in" "homepage" to "home page" (consistency) Link "project home page" rather than "check out the project homepage" other than that, i think the text is fine. what about a FAQ to cover things like: - any efforts to convert to SQL Server happy code - what kinda server/db it's set up to run with ? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 18:29:38 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:29:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data References: Message-ID: <3BC38917.2060902@starkmedia.com> sorry i missed the first half of this thread.. rudy, do we not have the DB set up(and a test page somewhere) where people can add their own fields to their user page? example: i have the 5 fields we have up there now, plus i add my URL, ICQ#, cat's name, and where i went to school whereas you have 5 fields plus URL, AIM#, dog's name, and who you're favorite football player is? if we do, i think we've got this prob covered.. ;) .djc. isaac wrote: > > Anyone else? Even if you'd use it in the same way as Ron, Adrian, or myself, > I'd still appreciate your thoughts. From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 9 18:47:48 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:47:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: <01c1511c$c5f0a0a0$f948149a@rudy> >rudy, do we not have the DB set up yes, but i want to review the table columns to see if they will still do the job > (and a test page somewhere) yes, sorta -- http://evolt.org/member/rudy_limeback/2746/index.html let me get the kids to bed first, and i'll explain the tables... From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 18:47:52 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:47:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <3BC38917.2060902@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > rudy, do we not have the DB set up(and a test page somewhere) where > people can add their own fields to their user page? example: i have the > 5 fields we have up there now, plus i add my URL, ICQ#, cat's name, and > where i went to school whereas you have 5 fields plus URL, AIM#, dog's > name, and who you're favorite football player is? > > if we do, i think we've got this prob covered.. ;) Firstly, will that allow any user to add anything? (Offensive material, etc) Secondly, why use separate fields at all? Why wouldn't we provide full flexibility by using a big textarea? Does the data need to be searchable? If so, wouldn't standardised field types/names help with that? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From lbenne01 at tufts.edu Tue Oct 9 18:53:38 2001 From: lbenne01 at tufts.edu (Louis P Bennett) Date: Tue Oct 9 18:53:38 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> References: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: actually, there are two entities that do validate: … and … a quick check of two browsers i've got open reveals that ie5/mac interprets both correctly and n4.78/mac does not interpret … correctly. you can check it out on whatever browsers you've got running at: and it validates: -louis >if it doesn't validate, it doesn't validate... > >use something else, or use three periods... > >the other option is that we make exceptions to our validation... > >> From: "Daniel J. Cody" >> >> not sure man.. i'm really not much of an ace at the >> compliance/html/css stuff, but i'd imagine someone here is ? >> >> > i purposely used … in place of three periods because i liked >> > the spacing better. is there any way we can use the ellipses and > > > have it validate? From joshua at alphashop.com Tue Oct 9 19:01:48 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:01:48 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <047301c15120$12f6c4d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> nice work. -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis P Bennett" Subject: Re: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation : actually, there are two entities that do validate: : : … and … : : a quick check of two browsers i've got open reveals that ie5/mac : interprets both correctly and n4.78/mac does not interpret … : correctly. you can check it out on whatever browsers you've got : running at: : : : : and it validates: : : : : -louis From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 19:08:58 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:08:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] new sourceforge page.. References: Message-ID: <3BC3924F.5090209@starkmedia.com> unless you or someone else can volunteer, this is gonna get pushed back till after codefest. if someone else does want to volunteer, i'll be happy to answer questions to get a faq going.. .djc. isaac wrote: > what about a FAQ to cover things like: > > - any efforts to convert to SQL Server happy code > - what kinda server/db it's set up to run with From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 19:10:56 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:10:56 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> <047301c15120$12f6c4d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <3BC392C5.80304@starkmedia.com> +2 aard/jeff, is that cool or no? nice to have you on board louis :) .djc. Joshua Olson wrote: > nice work. > > -joshua > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Louis P Bennett" > Subject: Re: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation > > > : actually, there are two entities that do validate: > : > : … and … > : > : a quick check of two browsers i've got open reveals that ie5/mac > : interprets both correctly and n4.78/mac does not interpret … > : correctly. you can check it out on whatever browsers you've got > : running at: > : > : > : > : and it validates: > : > : > llipses.html> > : > : -louis > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 19:13:47 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:13:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data References: Message-ID: <3BC39370.4030702@starkmedia.com> see where you're coming from, but people can just as easily put offensive shit up there right now in the forms of usernames and emails i'm not sure people would really choose to open an evolt account just to put 'fuck me in the goat ass' as a field.. and i think you could choose a textarea or textbox(dont quote me :).. should it be searchable? that could be an option, but not something that should stand in the way of the overall feautre isaac wrote: > Firstly, will that allow any user to add anything? (Offensive material, etc) > > Secondly, why use separate fields at all? Why wouldn't we provide full > flexibility by using a big textarea? > > Does the data need to be searchable? If so, wouldn't standardised field > types/names help with that? From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 19:33:57 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:33:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read In-Reply-To: <3BC3924F.5090209@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > till after codefest. if someone else does want to volunteer, i'll be > happy to answer questions to get a faq going.. OK, if you can respond to those you can, I'll clean it up if necessary, and get the text to you. > > what about a FAQ to cover things like: > > > > - any efforts to convert to SQL Server happy code > > - what kinda server/db it's set up to run with A FAQ (however brief) for thecode page on sourceforge would be a good way of keeping interesting parties aware of progress. Currently, I have two questions that I think would be useful on thelist: - What server has the code been built to run on? (Dan, insert answer here) - What database has the code been built to run with? (As above - include any customisations, version numbers, etc) - I'm interested in running the code with SQL Server; have any efforts been made to do this? (Everyone: has anyone tried this? Even if nothing has happened we can encourage it and offer tips to anyone who tries. For example, most of the issues will lie directly in the SQL, right?) - Which CMS-like features does thecode support? (Anyone? Martin?) Does anyone else have any questions they think could be appropriate? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 19:34:00 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:34:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data In-Reply-To: <3BC39370.4030702@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > see where you're coming from, but people can just as easily put > offensive shit up there right now in the forms of usernames and emails Yes, you're right. > a textarea or textbox(dont quote me :).. should it be searchable? that > could be an option, but not something that should stand in the way of > the overall feautre I suppose anything that we want searchable, we'll encourage people to use standard field names for or something. So, anyone (I will be giving it a go -- don't know if anyone else is trying) designing a user page concept needs to take into account: - minimum data (along the lines of current user pages) - infinite data possible - all structured within sections, custom-named by users. (Any limit on section title length?) - each item can be sequenced (Any limit on item content length?) isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 19:42:53 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:42:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: Message-ID: <3BC39A40.9040809@starkmedia.com> isaac wrote: > - What server has the code been built to run on? if you mean webserver, its built on Cold Fusion 4.5.1SP2, Apache 1.2.0 with Linux sitting underneath it all. > - What database has the code been built to run with? Currently, the database we're using is Oracle 8.1.6 running on Linux. > - I'm interested in running the code with SQL Server; have any efforts been > made to do this? At the time of this writing, there have been no efforts to port the SQL code to different database platforms. We are interested in this possibiltiy and gladly welcome anyone willing to help move the code to more platforms. > (Everyone: has anyone tried this? Even if nothing has happened we can > encourage it and offer tips to anyone who tries. For example, most of the > issues will lie directly in the SQL, right?) most, although we do have a number of places we use Oracle spefic shit in CF(sysdate, our sequences, coulple others.) > - Which CMS-like features does thecode support? > > (Anyone? Martin?) sexiness. multi user content approval and management with ACL's(access control lists). Super Sexy URL Scheme for Indexing Robots pleasure. is that good? :) From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 19:47:35 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:47:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [Admin] Mail Alert! - Tue Oct 09 16385] Message-ID: <3BC39B5A.7020809@starkmedia.com> well then. so much for *that* problem :) have i said a hundred times yet how much evolt *rules*??! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Admin] Mail Alert! - Tue Oct 09 16385 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:42:58 From: "evolt.org info" Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org To: "evolt.org admin" There is a mail message on the evolt site- From: Young Paik Date: 09-Oct-01 07:42 PM CST Answer at: http://admin.evol UA: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) IP: 4.60.245.104 From: http://www.evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit Message: I download the evolt source code and converted the SQL script so that it works on MS SQL. Let me know if you guys would like a copy. Keep up the great work!!! Would someone please answer it? Thank you sexily. ___________________________________________________ October is stud month From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 9 19:54:21 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 9 19:54:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read In-Reply-To: <3BC39A40.9040809@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > is that good? :) that's fine. requires minimal cleaning up. do you want me to wait until you've checked out this new MS SQL port before we get the text onto SF? i From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 20:01:16 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 20:01:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: Message-ID: <3BC39E8D.6070504@starkmedia.com> ya please isaac wrote: > >>is that good? :) >> > > that's fine. requires minimal cleaning up. > > do you want me to wait until you've checked out this new MS SQL port before > we get the text onto SF? > > > i > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 9 20:43:45 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 9 20:43:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [Admin] Mail Alert! - Tue Oct 09 16385] Message-ID: <01c1512d$595363e0$f948149a@rudy> >well then. so much for *that* problem :) > >have i said a hundred times yet how much evolt *rules*??! hey dan, could i have a look? post the script somewhere? just want to make sure they caught all the subleties (sql/server identity fields, etc.) ta very much rudy From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 9 21:28:25 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 9 21:28:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: RE: Your email to evolt.org 16385 (fwd)] Message-ID: <3BC3B2F5.1060102@starkmedia.com> rudy/others, heres what Young sent me, give it a once through, i'm going to run it on our mssql box at work tomorrow.. Content-Disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME="evolt_MS.sql" CREATE TABLE ATTRIBUTE ( ATTRID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("ATTRID" IS NOT NULL), ATTRNAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("ATTRNAME" IS NOT NULL) ) go ALTER TABLE ATTRIBUTE ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (ATTRID) go CREATE TABLE CATEGORYS ( CATEGORYID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATEGORYID" IS NOT NULL), CATTYPEID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATTYPEID" IS NOT NULL), CATEGORY varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATEGORY" IS NOT NULL), CREATED datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("CREATED" IS NOT NULL), CREATEDBY numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CREATEDBY" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVE numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("ACTIVE" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVEBY numeric(8) NULL, DATEMOD datetime NULL ) go CREATE TABLE CATTYPE ( CATTYPEID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATTYPEID" IS NOT NULL), CATTYPENAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATTYPENAME" IS NOT NULL), CREATED datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("CREATED" IS NOT NULL), CREATEDBY numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CREATEDBY" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVE numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("ACTIVE" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVEBY numeric(8) NULL, DATEMOD datetime NULL ) go CREATE TABLE CONTACT ( CONTACTID numeric(10) NULL, FIRSTNAME varchar(50) NULL, LASTNAME varchar(50) NULL, EMAIL varchar(50) NULL, MESSAGE text NULL, MAILDATE datetime NULL, USERID numeric(10) NULL, ANSWER numeric(10) NULL, ACTIVE numeric NULL ) go CREATE TABLE CONTENT ( CONTENTID numeric(10) NOT NULL CHECK ("CONTENTID" IS NOT NULL), CONTENTNAME varchar(50) NULL, BODY text NULL, USERID numeric(10) NULL, DATEMOD datetime NULL, SIGNOFF numeric(10) NULL, ADMINID numeric(10) NULL, CATEGORYID numeric(10) NULL, SIGNDATE datetime NULL, SYNOPSIS varchar(500) NULL, RATING numeric(3,2) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("RATING" IS NOT NULL), RATINGS numeric(8) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("RATINGS" IS NOT NULL), REPLIES numeric(8) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("REPLIES" IS NOT NULL), KEYPHRASE varchar(100) NULL ) go ALTER TABLE CONTENT ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (CONTENTID) go CREATE TABLE CONTENT2 ( CONTENTID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CONTENTID" IS NOT NULL), LANGUAGEID numeric(8) NOT NULL DEFAULT 3846 CHECK ("LANGUAGEID" IS NOT NULL), CATEGORYID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CATEGORYID" IS NOT NULL), USERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("USERID" IS NOT NULL), DATEMOD datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("DATEMOD" IS NOT NULL), SIGNOFF numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("SIGNOFF" IS NOT NULL), SIGNDATE datetime NULL, ADMINID numeric(8) NULL, PRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("PRIV" IS NOT NULL), CONTENTNAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("CONTENTNAME" IS NOT NULL), SYNOPSIS varchar(255) NULL, BODY image NULL, RATING numeric(3,2) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("RATING" IS NOT NULL), RATINGS numeric(8) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("RATINGS" IS NOT NULL), REPLIES numeric(8) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("REPLIES" IS NOT NULL) ) go CREATE TABLE ELEMENT ( ELEMENTID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("ELEMENTID" IS NOT NULL), ELEMENTNAME varchar(100) NOT NULL CHECK ("ELEMENTNAME" IS NOT NULL) ) go ALTER TABLE ELEMENT ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (ELEMENTID) go CREATE TABLE LANGUAGE ( LANGUAGEID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("LANGUAGEID" IS NOT NULL), LANGUAGENAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("LANGUAGENAME" IS NOT NULL) ) go CREATE TABLE MEMBATTR ( MEMBATTRID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("MEMBATTRID" IS NOT NULL), MEMBERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("MEMBERID" IS NOT NULL), ATTRID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("ATTRID" IS NOT NULL), SEQ numeric(2) NOT NULL CHECK ("SEQ" IS NOT NULL), PRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL CHECK ("PRIV" IS NOT NULL), ATTRVALUE varchar(255) NULL, REMARKS varchar(255) NULL ) go ALTER TABLE MEMBATTR ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (MEMBATTRID) go CREATE TABLE MEMBER ( MEMBERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("MEMBERID" IS NOT NULL), CREATEDATE datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("CREATEDATE" IS NOT NULL), DATEMOD datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("DATEMOD" IS NOT NULL), FIRSTNAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("FIRSTNAME" IS NOT NULL), LASTNAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("LASTNAME" IS NOT NULL), PRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 2 CHECK ("PRIV" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVE numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 1 CHECK ("ACTIVE" IS NOT NULL) ) go ALTER TABLE MEMBER ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (MEMBERID) go CREATE TABLE POSTS ( POSTDATE datetime NULL, POPDATE varchar(350) NULL, AUTHOR varchar(350) NULL, SUBJECT varchar(350) NULL, SORTSUBJECT varchar(350) NULL, HEADER varchar(2000) NULL, ID numeric(8) NULL, BODY text NULL, TESTDATE varchar(50) NULL ) go CREATE INDEX POSTS_INDEX ON POSTS ( ID, SUBJECT ) go CREATE TABLE RATING ( RATINGID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("RATINGID" IS NOT NULL), USERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("USERID" IS NOT NULL), CONTENTID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("CONTENTID" IS NOT NULL), DATECREATED datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("DATECREATED" IS NOT NULL), LASTMOD datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("LASTMOD" IS NOT NULL), RATINGVALUE numeric(1) NOT NULL CHECK ("RATINGVALUE" IS NOT NULL), CHECK (ratingvalue between 1 and 5) ) go CREATE UNIQUE INDEX ONERATINGPERUSERPERARTICLE ON RATING ( USERID, CONTENTID ) go ALTER TABLE RATING ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (RATINGID) go CREATE TABLE REPLIES ( COMMENTID numeric(10) NULL, CONTENTID numeric(10) NULL, USERID varchar(50) NULL, MESSAGE text NULL, DATEMOD datetime NULL, GRRRS numeric(5) NULL, MESSAGENAME varchar(50) NULL ) go CREATE TABLE RESPONSE ( CONRESID numeric(11) NULL, CONTACTID numeric(11) NULL, RESPONDER numeric(11) NULL, RESPONSE image NULL, MAILDATE datetime NULL, ACTIVE numeric(11) NULL, RESPNDR numeric(10) NULL, RESPNS numeric(10) NULL, REPLY image NULL ) go CREATE TABLE SCHEME ( SCHEMEID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMEID" IS NOT NULL), SCHEMEUSERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMEUSERID" IS NOT NULL), SCHEMENAME varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMENAME" IS NOT NULL), PRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("PRIV" IS NOT NULL) ) go ALTER TABLE SCHEME ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (SCHEMEID) go CREATE TABLE SCHEMEELEMENT ( SCHEMEELEMID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMEELEMID" IS NOT NULL), SCHEMEID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMEID" IS NOT NULL), ELEMENTID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("ELEMENTID" IS NOT NULL), SCHEMEELEMVALUE varchar(100) NOT NULL CHECK ("SCHEMEELEMVALUE" IS NOT NULL) ) go ALTER TABLE SCHEMEELEMENT ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (SCHEMEELEMID) go CREATE TABLE SEARCHINDEX ( SINDEX numeric(10) NULL, USERID numeric(10) NULL, DATEMOD datetime NULL ) go CREATE TABLE THELIST ( POSTDATE datetime NULL, POPDATE varchar(350) NULL, AUTHOR varchar(350) NULL, SUBJECT varchar(350) NULL, SORTSUBJECT varchar(350) NULL, HEADER varchar(2000) NULL, ID numeric(8) NULL, BODY text NULL, CONTENT image NULL ) go CREATE TABLE THETIPS ( TIP_ID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("TIP_ID" IS NOT NULL), TIP_DATE datetime NOT NULL CHECK ("TIP_DATE" IS NOT NULL), AUTHOR_ID numeric(8) NULL, TIP_TYPE varchar(200) NULL, AUTHOR varchar(50) NULL, BODY text NULL ) go ALTER TABLE THETIPS ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (TIP_ID) go CREATE TABLE USERS ( USERID numeric(8) NOT NULL CHECK ("USERID" IS NOT NULL), WHO varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("WHO" IS NOT NULL), PASS varchar(50) NOT NULL CHECK ("PASS" IS NOT NULL), CREATEDATE datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("CREATEDATE" IS NOT NULL), DATEMOD datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("DATEMOD" IS NOT NULL), LASTLOGIN datetime NOT NULL DEFAULT GETDATE() CHECK ("LASTLOGIN" IS NOT NULL), LEAVEOUT numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("LEAVEOUT" IS NOT NULL), NOTIFY numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 1 CHECK ("NOTIFY" IS NOT NULL), ADMIN numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("ADMIN" IS NOT NULL), ACTIVE numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 1 CHECK ("ACTIVE" IS NOT NULL), GOD numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("GOD" IS NOT NULL), THELIST numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 0 CHECK ("THELIST" IS NOT NULL), USERPRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 1 CHECK ("USERPRIV" IS NOT NULL), PRIV numeric(1) NOT NULL DEFAULT 3 CHECK ("PRIV" IS NOT NULL), FIRSTNAME varchar(50) NULL, LASTNAME varchar(50) NULL, EMAIL varchar(50) NULL, MEMBERID numeric(8) NULL, COOKIE varchar(50) NULL ) go ALTER TABLE USERS ADD PRIMARY KEY NONCLUSTERED (USERID) go ALTER TABLE MEMBATTR ADD FOREIGN KEY (MEMBERID) REFERENCES MEMBER go ALTER TABLE MEMBATTR ADD FOREIGN KEY (ATTRID) REFERENCES ATTRIBUTE go ALTER TABLE RATING ADD FOREIGN KEY (USERID) REFERENCES USERS go ALTER TABLE RATING ADD FOREIGN KEY (CONTENTID) REFERENCES CONTENT go ALTER TABLE SCHEME ADD FOREIGN KEY (SCHEMEUSERID) REFERENCES USERS go ALTER TABLE SCHEMEELEMENT ADD FOREIGN KEY (SCHEMEID) REFERENCES SCHEME go ALTER TABLE SCHEMEELEMENT ADD FOREIGN KEY (ELEMENTID) REFERENCES ELEMENT go --=====================_41189917==_-- From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 9 22:04:26 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 9 22:04:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: RE: Your email to evolt.org 16385 (fwd)] Message-ID: <01c15138$81a0c4e0$f948149a@rudy> > rudy/others, heres what Young sent me, give it a once through, > i'm going to run it on our mssql box at work tomorrow.. it has all the earmarks of having been produced by some automated tool, so i would be surprised if it did *not* work there are no identity fields -- not surprising, since in oracle the autonum fields aren't marked as such in each table layout but otherwise the conversion looks fine, getdate() instead of sysdate, etc. say dan, how did you generate the actual oracle script in the first place? how did you identify which FKs were actually declared? e.g. schemelement... i want to be able to do that on a table-by-table basis in sql-plus some day by the way, there are a whole bunch of PK/FK relationships that exist only in our heads, i.e. they were never explicitly declared anyhow, thanks for posting the new source code, i went and got the oracle ddl from it, so you saved me a bunch of cuttin & pastin from puTTy ;o) rudy From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 9 22:47:01 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 9 22:47:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: <01c1513e$8e1be6e0$f948149a@rudy> > So, anyone (I will be giving it a go -- don't know if anyone else is trying) > designing a user page concept needs to take into account: well, isaac old pal, thanks for taking this on, but the design is pretty straightforward, if you saw what i did at the last codefest (http://evolt.org/member/rudy_limeback/2746/index.html) the display of the information is really simple please allow me to comment on your suggestions -- > - minimum data (along the lines of current user pages) > - infinite data possible the minimum data could be prompted by the form that lets people add/change their info i.e. if there's a box for phone number, the cold fusion could stuff that into the table with "phone number" as the attribute, similarly for some of the more common, or more useful, pre-defined attributes otherwise, all the data would be be entered into field pairs -- attribute/value > - all structured within sections, custom-named by users. (Any limit on > section title length?) > > - each item can be sequenced (Any limit on item content length?) let's jump right in, shall we? first, we need a separate member table from the user table CREATE TABLE MEMBER MEMBERID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, CREATEDATE DATE DEFAULT SYSDATE NOT NULL, DATEMOD DATE DEFAULT sysdate NOT NULL, FIRSTNAME VARCHAR2 (50) NOT NULL, LASTNAME VARCHAR2 (50) NOT NULL, PRIV NUMBER (1) DEFAULT 2 NOT NULL, ACTIVE NUMBER (1) DEFAULT 1 NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY ( MEMBERID ) ) ; note that PRIV for all rows will be 2 or higher -- this will be the first time we have seen PRIV=2 (member) the only thing that's not really straightforward about this table is why we need it, i.e., why not use the USERS table? the answer is, because USERS records come and go (and sometimes dupes have to be removed ), and furthermore, there could be multiple legitimate USERS per MEMBER (one for home, one for work, etc.) so item #1 for the cold fusion coders is to create the administrative pages that would allow for the add/change/delete of MEMBER records item #1A is to allow USER records to FK back to the "parent" MEMBER -- the FK for this is already in the USERS table as to who gets to run these administrative pages, i.e. the privacy checks on them, it is my opinion that any admin (priv>=3) should be able to, *plus* each member (priv=2) should be able to run it for his or her own record i see dan entering member records every time somebody requests a m.e.o account i see members defining their own pages, linked to their own user records (and the member pages would not work without the FK from a user record) with me so far? okay, next is the attributes we're going to store CREATE TABLE ATTRIBUTE ATTRID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, ATTRNAME VARCHAR2 (50) NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY ( ATTRID ) ) ; pretty simple, no? the attributes will be "phone," "url," "cat," "sexual orientation," and/or whatever else we may want to use and/or the members choose to add is 50 characters big enough? we can increase it so item #2 for the cold fusion coders is to create the administrative function that allows for the add/change/delete of ATTRIBUTE records this administrative function -- note i did not say it had to be a separate page, it could be built into the page where the member defines the values (below) -- should be accessible to any member (priv >= 2) oh, and delete *must* be defined with RESTRICT relational integrity so that no member can blow away an attribute record that describes somebody else now for the meat of the member pages structure CREATE TABLE MEMBATTR MEMBATTRID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, MEMBERID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, ATTRID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, SEQ NUMBER (2) NOT NULL, PRIV NUMBER (1) NOT NULL, ATTRVALUE VARCHAR2 (255), REMARKS VARCHAR2 (255), PRIMARY KEY ( MEMBATTRID ) ) ; all the fields should be self-explanatory except ATTRVALUE and REMARKS if not, holler ATTRVALUE is where the actual value gets stored so for my phone number, the MEMBATTR record would have MEMBERID pointing to my MEMBER row, ATTRID pointing to the "Phone Number" ATTRIBUTE row, and ATTRVALUE would be the actual digits REMARKS is so that i can distinguish home numbers, work numbers, etc. so item #3 for the cold fusion coders is the administrative page to add/change/delete any member data (is 255 characters enough? we can increase it) the structure is simple, but as suggested earlier, perhaps the code might be a bit more complex, as we may want certain "standard" attributes "hardcoded" into the form, so that people have some guidance in what to enter for themselves (and any such fields left empty would simply not get into the table) and of course item #4 is the actual display of member data, which should be, as i said at the outset, really really simple the only thing i haven't settled on is whether ATTRIBUTE should have a SEQ field, or whether the SEQ field in MEMBATTR governs all the values for that member -- e.g. i might want my home number, then home address, then work number, then work address, etc., which would not be possible if numbers and address had a higher order sort sequence... and also, who defines what the ATTRIBUTE sequence values should be? i apologize if this has been a more-or-less stream-of-consciousness description of the underlying structure if anyone has any questions, better get them on the table now, in case this project actually gets tackled this weekend... rudy From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 01:48:03 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 10 01:48:03 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: <3BC392C5.80304@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > +2 > aard/jeff, is that cool or no? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm fine using the numeric character entity (…). thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From roselli at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 01:51:10 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Wed Oct 10 01:51:10 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation In-Reply-To: References: <3BC392C5.80304@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BC3B806.12747.22D561D4@localhost> > From: ".jeff" > > > > +2 > > aard/jeff, is that cool or no? > > i'm fine using the numeric character entity (…). i musta missed this thread... either way, if it validates and does the ellipse thing, fine by me... From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 01:54:45 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 10 01:54:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: RE: Your email to evolt.org 16385 (fwd)] In-Reply-To: <01c15138$81a0c4e0$f948149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > it has all the earmarks of having been produced by some > automated tool, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. i noticed the same thing. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > there are no identity fields ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< correct. using the cms with sql server would require a tweaking of *all* insert queries to remove the insertion of the data for the pk. in addition, the script for the sql server data architecture would have to identify the pk columns as identity columns. it's certainly a step in the right direction though. just my 2?, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From martin at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 02:00:23 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Wed Oct 10 02:00:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read Message-ID: <00f565102070aa1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 10/10/01 2:35 am > - Which CMS-like features does thecode support? Very basic workflow (but sufficient for what we need, although I wouldn't mind having capabilities to do commissioning and collaborative working). Workflow participant notification. Browser-based content entry and editing. Role based access. Ability to link to other assets in the content repository independent of its full URL (allows for cat changes for one thing). Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 02:08:42 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 10 02:08:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read In-Reply-To: <00f565102070aa1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: > Very basic workflow (but sufficient for what we need, > although I wouldn't mind having capabilities to do > commissioning and collaborative working). > > Workflow participant notification. > > Browser-based content entry and editing. > > Role based access. > > Ability to link to other assets in the content repository > independent of its full URL (allows for cat changes for > one thing). exactly what i needed. now, can i have 1-2 sentences of each in CMS-newbie speak? that way we cover people from both camps. thanks, isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 10 08:10:43 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 10 08:10:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data References: <01c1513e$8e1be6e0$f948149a@rudy> Message-ID: <016c01c1518d$51dd9800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Wow .. Rudy, thanks a million for this email. I'm not even going to bother summarizing it, we'll just refer to it directly. :) I have a couple of questions .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy" | the attributes will be "phone," "url," "cat," "sexual orientation," and/or | whatever else we may want to use and/or the members choose to add Members choose to add their own attributes. Are these member-created attributes linked in any way to the user? Or once a member creates a new attribute, all members can then use that attribute for themself? How do we account for things like, "Telephone (Work)" or "Work Telephone" ? i.e. two attributes that are the same thing, just worded different ? I'm not real crazy about allowing members to add attributes; I would prefer if the template has "standard" attributes, and if anyone wants something else added, it gets "approved" beforehand, so that we don't end up with redundant attributes. What do others think? (Or am I misunderstanding?) | | CREATE TABLE MEMBATTR | | MEMBATTRID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, | MEMBERID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, | ATTRID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, | SEQ NUMBER (2) NOT NULL, | PRIV NUMBER (1) NOT NULL, | ATTRVALUE VARCHAR2 (255), | REMARKS VARCHAR2 (255), | PRIMARY KEY ( MEMBATTRID ) ) ; | | | all the fields should be self-explanatory except ATTRVALUE and REMARKS | | if not, holler | | ATTRVALUE is where the actual value gets stored | | so for my phone number, the MEMBATTR record would have MEMBERID pointing to | my MEMBER row, ATTRID pointing to the "Phone Number" ATTRIBUTE row, and | ATTRVALUE would be the actual digits | | REMARKS is so that i can distinguish home numbers, work numbers, etc. | Ok, so the intent of "Remarks" is to further define the actual attribute? IOW, we will only have one attribute of Telephone Number, and the member fills in the Remarks to indicate what that number is for? Display wise, how do we link Remarks back to the attribute? And, do we prefill (I don't see how we can) various Remarks? Usability wise, I'm struggling to come up with a good way to present the forms to the member that they fill out. | so item #3 for the cold fusion coders is the administrative page to | add/change/delete any member data | | (is 255 characters enough? we can increase it) If we look at Erik's sample page for n.e.o. (http://neo.evolt.org) and take into consideration what Isaac suggested the other day, I would think 255 is not enough for only certain attributes (Portfolio, SoapBox). The question becomes, what is the Max (i.e. memo field, I dunno what they are in Oracle) amount allowed? And, do we "really" want to use Max amount for each attribute? Isn't this database no-no #1? i.e. using memo fields to store 10 characters of data is not a good idea. | | the only thing i haven't settled on is whether ATTRIBUTE should have a SEQ | field, or whether the SEQ field in MEMBATTR governs all the values for that | member -- e.g. i might want my home number, then home address, then work | number, then work address, etc., which would not be possible if numbers and | address had a higher order sort sequence... and also, who defines what the | ATTRIBUTE sequence values should be? | I'd say it should be member-assigned. i.e. they build their page based on what information they provide and in what order they would like that information to appear on the page. Code wise, I guess we'll have to check for sequence values for each user, in that they don't use the same seq value twice? Thanks again Rudy .. very helpful summarization. Michele From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 10 08:30:15 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 10 08:30:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] User page data Message-ID: <01c15190$09382720$f948149a@rudy> > Members choose to add their own attributes. > Are these member-created attributes linked in > any way to the user? they are linked through the attribute-membattr-member-user relationships ... if you really meant to say "user" instead of "member" ;o) but no, there's no direct connection, if you're thinking along the lines of "who created this attribute?" > Or once a member creates a new attribute, all > members can then use that attribute for themself? that was the idea >I'm not real crazy about allowing members to add attributes; > I would prefer if the template has "standard" attributes, and > if anyone wants something else added, it gets "approved" > beforehand, so that we don't end up with redundant attributes. > What do others think? (Or am I misunderstanding?) no, you do understand it however, if all existing attributes were available to choose from, say in a dropdown (yes i realize this could get big fast) then redundancies will be minimal but i think the idea isaac had (if i may hijack it for this database structure), to build a form where the really common ones were "hardcoded" into the form, would mitigate that a lot > Display wise, how do we link Remarks back to the attribute? the basic layout of the member data is as i suggested the other day [Attribute] [Attrvalue] [Remarks] the Attribute would probably be in a CFOUTPUT GROUP= (the other day i used Section instead of Attribute) the remarks just tag along with the attrvalue they describe > And, do we prefill (I don't see how we can) various Remarks? no > The question becomes, what is the Max (i.e. memo field, > I dunno what they are in Oracle) amount allowed? you can use varchar2(2000) i think best not to use LONG because it's not searchable (last i heard) > And, do we "really" want to use Max amount for each > attribute? Isn't this database no-no #1? variable length field == no worry ;o) > I'd say [Seq] should be member-assigned. i.e. they > build their page based on what information they provide > and in what order they would like that information to appear > on the page. Code wise, I guess we'll have to check for > sequence values for each user, in that they don't use the > same seq value twice? nah, dupes are fine, they all sort together best example i can think of off the top of my head just now is the sequence of tasks all due on the same day -- you could have a subsort on priority, or something, but why bother? besides, Seq will be an updatable field, and when members start loading data, they could use Seqs like 100, 200, etc. rudy From elfur at elfur.is Wed Oct 10 08:43:58 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed Oct 10 08:43:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] MEO mail account blocked ... anyone with access: please help. Message-ID: <0a7101c15191$b3ff3800$0100a8c0@DWARFS> Hey you, whoever you are :) my MEO account is "blocked". that is, there is an email blocking further receiving of all emails from my MEO account. and that bastard (the mail) just doesn't want to go my way. If anyone with access can unscrew that block, i'd be oh, so grateful. thanks from the land of ice and fire. From bruce at heerssen.com Wed Oct 10 09:43:36 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Oct 10 09:43:36 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BC44F47.4030104@heerssen.com> Louis P Bennett wrote: > actually, there are two entities that do validate: > > … and … > > a quick check of two browsers i've got open reveals that ie5/mac > interprets both correctly and n4.78/mac does not interpret … > correctly. you can check it out on whatever browsers you've got > running at: > > I'm running linux-mandrake 8.0. On the four browsers I have the results are: Browser | … | … Mozilla 0.9.4 | yes | yes Lynx 2.8.4 | yes | yes Netscape 4.? | no | yes Konqueror 2.1.1 | no | no To keep NN4 happy, … looks to be the way to go. I only show lynx and konqueror in the interest of completeness; although they are not on the list of supported browsers, it is nice to know how they perform. If you've never seen evolt in lynx, check out this screen shot http://members.evolt.org/bheerssen/images/evolt_lynx.png Cheers, -Bruce From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 10 10:10:41 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 10 10:10:41 2001 Subject: Fw: [thesite] evolt validation References: <200110092121.f99LLYIM010651@leo.evolt.org> <3BC44F47.4030104@heerssen.com> Message-ID: <3BC464CF.1000805@starkmedia.com> ok, went with the … and everything looks good on t.e.o thanks again Bruce Heerssen wrote: > Louis P Bennett wrote: > >> actually, there are two entities that do validate: >> >> … and … > I'm running linux-mandrake 8.0. On the four browsers I have the results > are: From isaac at triplezero.com.au Wed Oct 10 19:45:03 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Wed Oct 10 19:45:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: To everyone interested and especially those hoping to chat and help via IRC, here's some info on those putting in the time to help out this weekend: http://members.evolt.org/isaac/evolt/codefest/codefest_bios.html (Hopefully this page will be included in Michele's official CF2001 pages when she has the time to add it.) If anyone hoping to join in via IRC can throw me some info, I'll include that too. Specifically, that currently includes: Rudy, Jeff, Bruce H, Shirley K, and Kristina. One day soon we'll have our user pages to handle all of this. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 10 20:36:29 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 10 20:36:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <001a01c151f5$1d390cc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Isaac, Thanks .. haven't had a chance to look this over yet. Can you resend me the file tomorrow night, (i.e. your Friday morning), and then I'll update it on my meo account. This way you can add any additional bios you get and I won't accidentally overwrite your file. I'll incorporate the other changes/comments to the task list tomorrow night as well. Thanks, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac Forman" | | To everyone interested and especially those hoping to chat and help via IRC, | here's some info on those putting in the time to help out this weekend: | | http://members.evolt.org/isaac/evolt/codefest/codefest_bios.html | | (Hopefully this page will be included in Michele's official CF2001 pages | when she has the time to add it.) From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 10 21:04:23 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 10 21:04:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <01c151f8$ba880460$d54a149a@rudy> here's my bio -- age: oh yes, plenty marital status: never again sexual orientation: hetero current situation: lonely kids: 2 grown, 2 living with me skills: sql, css, xhtml strict occupation: data architect current status: unemployed political affiliation: none religious affiliation: none social stance: anti-car cyclist interest: web development recreation: playing football, frisbee golf weakness: procrastination strength: chief idiot (e.g., if you want to make your design idiot-proof, run it by the chief idiot over here...) rudy From bruce at heerssen.com Wed Oct 10 22:13:29 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:13:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <3BC4FE7E.7060507@heerssen.com> Isaac Forman wrote: > If anyone hoping to join in via IRC can throw me some info, I'll include > that too. Specifically, that currently includes: Rudy, Jeff, Bruce H, > Shirley K, and Kristina. DOB: Dec 15, 1969 Occupation: internet applications engineer (sounds good, right?) Employment Status: available and looking Marital Status: available, but not looking very hard Skill Set: ColdFusion, PHP (still learning), ASP (unfortunately), SQL, HTML, CSS Favorite Activities: email, sailing, pool (billiards), chess (yahoo anyone? email me offlist), fscking up my computer so I can fix it, and beer drinking - not necessarily in that order Political Stance: slightly left of Bill Maher, slightly right of Erika Meyer Favorite Music: Electronica, punk rock, reggae, alternative & classic country, classical, bluegrass, and just about anything else that doesn't come with too much commercial endorsement (Faith Hill is right out) Religious Belief: none, and don't get me started dammit Anything else? -Bruce From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 22:18:05 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:18:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <3BC4FE7E.7060507@heerssen.com> Message-ID: bruce, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bruce Heerssen > > Anything else? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yeah, where the hell ya from? ;) thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From bruce at heerssen.com Wed Oct 10 22:21:07 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:21:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <3BC50043.6030000@heerssen.com> .jeff wrote: > bruce, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Bruce Heerssen >> >> Anything else? >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > > yeah, where the hell ya from? ;) Houston, Texas Some people call it hell. I call it home ;) -Bruce > From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 22:51:04 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:51:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <01c151f8$ba880460$d54a149a@rudy> Message-ID: here goes age: 26 (february 1975) sign: aquarius marital status: living in sin car: 2002 inferno red pt cruiser limited edition skills: coldfusion, javascript, sql, html, css, dhtml, user interface, accessibility, database design, application framework, standards and process implementation, dressing without wearing *any* natural fibers hobbies: alcohol, cycling, dancing music: techno, trance, electronica, ambient, industrial, classical, gregorian chant, and bagpipes kids: 19 month old girl named hannah and a boy in the oven that's keeping me from attending codefest (due nov 1st) political view: none religious view: spiritual -- who needs more bureaucracy weakness: email strength: problem solving / solution analysis, learning new things quickly, mentoring thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From rwd at csi1st.net Wed Oct 10 22:58:59 2001 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:58:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <3BC51A21.C82CA347@csi1st.net> hey, where you from jeff? ".jeff" wrote: > here goes > > age: 26 (february 1975) > sign: aquarius > marital status: living in sin > car: 2002 inferno red pt cruiser limited edition > skills: coldfusion, javascript, sql, html, css, > dhtml, user interface, accessibility, > database design, application framework, > standards and process implementation, > dressing without wearing *any* natural > fibers > hobbies: alcohol, cycling, dancing > music: techno, trance, electronica, ambient, > industrial, classical, gregorian chant, > and bagpipes > kids: 19 month old girl named hannah and a boy in > the oven that's keeping me from attending > codefest (due nov 1st) > political view: none > religious view: spiritual -- who needs more > bureaucracy > weakness: email > strength: problem solving / solution analysis, > learning new things quickly, mentoring > > thanks, > > .jeff > > http://evolt.org/ > jeff at members.evolt.org > http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 10 23:09:14 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 10 23:09:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <3BC51A21.C82CA347@csi1st.net> Message-ID: ron, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Ron Dorman > > hey, where you from jeff? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< am i the hypocrite or what? eugene, oregon. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From rwd at csi1st.net Thu Oct 11 00:31:50 2001 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Thu Oct 11 00:31:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <3BC52FE7.88C3AE09@csi1st.net> ".jeff" wrote: > ron, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Ron Dorman > > > > hey, where you from jeff? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > am i the hypocrite or what? > > eugene, oregon. i wouldn't say that. if i never did it i might could laugh. i haven't said much before, but i appreciate what you do for evolt. have a good night, Ron D. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 00:54:08 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 11 00:54:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <3BC52FE7.88C3AE09@csi1st.net> Message-ID: ron, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Ron Dorman > > > am i the hypocrite or what? > > > > eugene, oregon. > > i wouldn't say that. if i never did it i might could > laugh. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i shoulda put a smiley in there or something. that was half in jest cause i just got done "harassing" bruce for the same bit of info. i had this nagging feeling just before hitting the send button on my bio that i was forgetting something. wonder what could have been causing that. ;p ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i haven't said much before, but i appreciate what you > do for evolt. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< thanks much. have a good one yourself, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk Thu Oct 11 03:58:52 2001 From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina) Date: Thu Oct 11 03:58:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457557567.20011011095911@kfx-design.co.uk> Isaac, on Thursday, October 11, 2001, 1:44:26 AM, Isaac wrote: :: > If anyone hoping to join in via IRC can throw me some info, I'll > include that too. Specifically, that currently includes: Rudy, Jeff, > Bruce H, Shirley K, and Kristina. :: skills: html, css, javascript, dhtml, xsl, photography, flash, design (photoshop, corel photopaint/draw, psp) learning: all more of the above + xml, php & anything else of interest day job(more like 24/7 job!): web designer/(verging on developer)?!?! interests: horseriding, films, music, photography, skiing, reading (LOTS OF), email, drinking copious amounts of smirnoff ice, music festivals, anything a bit nutty ;o) pets: 1 dog - 2 cats - 4 horses - 2 ponies age: 30.12.75 lives: Exmoor, UK marital status: single & in no hurry to change that probly heapz more than ya need - but there ;o) -- bfn kristina kristina at kfx-design.co.uk "When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity." -- John F. Kennedy From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Oct 11 04:11:33 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Oct 11 04:11:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <457557567.20011011095911@kfx-design.co.uk> References: <457557567.20011011095911@kfx-design.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011011101249.349d6402.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:59:11 +0100, kristina wrote: > on Thursday, October 11, 2001, 1:44:26 AM, Isaac wrote: > > If anyone hoping to join in via IRC can throw me some info, I'll > > include that too. Specifically, that currently includes: Rudy, Jeff, > > Bruce H, Shirley K, and Kristina. > skills: html, css, javascript, dhtml, xsl, photography, flash, design > (photoshop, corel photopaint/draw, psp) [snip] Having only just got back (see thechat) I reckon I can still guess what this is for, so: Skills: HTML, CSS, MySQL, PHP, smattering of perl, Linux, bit of networking and backend stuff, breaking stuff (read: QA and testing), and all the stuff I blather about on #evolt. Dan'll probably just make me talk to eliza all night *:) Guess a trip to the archives would be a good move before I ask any stoopid questions like what time things are gonna be happening. G "Caffeine level: 3 feet high and rising" -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Thu Oct 11 05:56:39 2001 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Thu Oct 11 05:56:39 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read Message-ID: Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- > Very basic workflow (but sufficient for what we need, > although I wouldn't mind having capabilities to do > commissioning and collaborative working). When a member submits a new article, it doesn't hit the public site straight away. Before it gets posted, Admin members check it over for suitability (ie we don't post porn or spam), and make any tidying edits of grammar and spelling problems. Another site running the evolt code might use this to more substantially edit a submission into their house style. Once the edits have been made, any admin member can approve the article for launch and it goes live. Member comments on articles don't go through an approval step, but can be retrospectively edited if required. > Workflow participant notification. When a new article is submitted, the CMS sends out an email summarising the new article to admins. > Browser-based content entry and admin. You don't need any special software to operate the CMS - all tasks can be accomplished from any internet browser with access to the site. > Role based access. We have defined a hierarchy of roles within the site, and permissions based on those roles. Each role can perform the tasks of lower roles in the hierarchy Those roles and permissions are: * Anonymous user: Can view site content * Registered, logged in user: Can submit content - articles and comments. Can edit own content (subject to reapproval by admin) * Admin: Can approve, edit and expire articles. Can (will be able to?) add, edit and delete categories. Can view member info even if generally hidden. * Godmin: Can remove comments. Other stuff - someone want to fill this in? [nb I've left off article ratings as it's not really a CMS thing - feel free to readd] > Ability to link to other assets in the content repository > independent of its full URL (allows for cat changes for > one thing). All articles are of course uniquely identified by their URL. But part of the URL is where it sits in the site's structure (which category it's in). What happens if an article moves category? We've enabled a couple of schemes to allow linking to an article without depending on its category: 1) Keyphrase - a uniquely identifying shortened URL, which is human- specifiable. Example: http://evolt.org/testing/ rather than http://evolt.org/article/The_Tao_of_Testing/20/4142/index.html 2) The other one Jeff put in to handle moving stuff when Web Business takes effect using CF variables that I can't remember any more detail of. Also: * Content Syndication You want to have the headlines from evolt on your site? Fine, no problem. We've got a standards-compliant XML feed available which you can pull into your own pages. When our site updates, so will yours, automatically. * Platform independence Good content management separates the content from the presentation of that content. We've accomplished this by storing an article's content separately from the template it's presented within. This lets us apply different templates for different platforms - our proof of concept was a PDA version of the site - and a provide printer-friendly format without maintaining multiple sets of pages. How's that? Cheers Martin To: Martin P Burns/UK/MCS/PwC cc: Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 10/10/01 9:10 am Received: 10/10/01 8:11 am From: isaac, isaac at members.evolt.org Reply-To: thesite, thesite at lists.evolt.org To: thesite, thesite at lists.evolt.org > Very basic workflow (but sufficient for what we need, > although I wouldn't mind having capabilities to do > commissioning and collaborative working). > > Workflow participant notification. > > Browser-based content entry and editing. > > Role based access. > > Ability to link to other assets in the content repository > independent of its full URL (allows for cat changes for > one thing). exactly what i needed. now, can i have 1-2 sentences of each in CMS-newbie speak? that way we cover people from both camps. thanks, isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au _______________________________________________ For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland --------------------- End of message text -------------------- This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. 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From rwd at csi1st.net Thu Oct 11 07:45:26 2001 From: rwd at csi1st.net (Ron Dorman) Date: Thu Oct 11 07:45:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <3BC593AA.1CD60ADC@csi1st.net> ".jeff" wrote: > i shoulda put a smiley in there or something. that was half in jest cause i > just got done "harassing" bruce for the same bit of info. yeah, i had seen it and that is why i sent the post for yours. couldn't resist! Ron D. From sgd at ti3.com Thu Oct 11 09:42:17 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Thu Oct 11 09:42:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: > Political Stance: slightly left of Bill Maher, slightly right of Erika Meyer That has got to be one of the most beautiful descriptions I've seen in a long time Damn that makes me smile From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 10:01:45 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:01:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] Photos on User Pages Message-ID: <004101c15265$a3f1ec80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks.. I thought of something else for the member pages. Are we going to allow members to upload their own pictures? Or is the idea that they store the picture on their own server (could be an meo account), and just provide the URL to that picture as an attribute value? Thanks, Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 10:13:45 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:13:45 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: Message-ID: <004601c15267$51996100$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin, Sorry, I've been sleeping .. what's this write up for? A new FAQ for weo? I've only skimmed this, but a couple points below. | * Admin: Can approve, edit and expire articles. Can (will be able to?) | add, edit and delete categories. Can view member info even if | generally hidden. Not at all sure what the reference to categories means here. Please expand/clarify. Admins can also edit all comments but not delete them. As far as viewing member info, at this point that only applies to email addresses on the user pages. However, I'm not at all sure if this will change with the new members' pages. Are we going to have different Priv levels for info aside from Privs 1 and 2, which are logged in and not logged in user? (The member pages will also change slightly the writeups provided for anon and logged in user.) | * Godmin: Can remove comments. Other stuff - someone want to fill | this in? Permanently delete articles (I think?) .. tho this may be just brute forced, and is done very seldom. Michele From joshua at alphashop.com Thu Oct 11 10:14:58 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:14:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: Message-ID: <079d01c15268$79865e10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" Subject: RE: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios : here goes : : age: 26 (february 1975) : sign: aquarius : marital status: living in sin : car: 2002 inferno red pt cruiser limited edition I thought you ordered a gold colored one? : skills: coldfusion, javascript, sql, html, css, : dhtml, user interface, accessibility, : database design, application framework, : standards and process implementation, : dressing without wearing *any* natural : fibers Not to mention in any color imaginable. If you say, "hey jeff, wear something orange", he'll come out orange from head to foot looking like a damned pumpkin. And, he can claim the whole outfit only cost him a buck-fifty, a coat hanger, and a smile. : hobbies: alcohol, cycling, dancing : music: techno, trance, electronica, ambient, : industrial, classical, gregorian chant, : and bagpipes Bagpipes?? :) Never heard that out of your winamp shoutcast feed before. -joshua From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 10:19:34 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:19:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <457557567.20011011095911@kfx-design.co.uk> <20011011101249.349d6402.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> Message-ID: <004f01c15268$219565c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Garrett, Are you around this weekend to participate in codefest via IRC? Approx. start time is 12:00 EST (5:00 GMT) on Saturday. Codefest files are located here: http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/index.html However, Isaac has been looking after adding the Bios, which I'll add to the above later today. As well, there are a bunch of comments from Jeff and Rudy to add to the task list as well. Laters, Michele (p.s. Eliza's gone MIA, and with Dean gone, I don't anticipate her finding her way home on her own .. or maybe he took her with him? ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett Coakley" | Having only just got back (see thechat) I reckon I can still guess what | this is for, so: | | Skills: HTML, CSS, MySQL, PHP, smattering of perl, Linux, bit of | networking and backend stuff, breaking stuff (read: QA and testing), and | all the stuff I blather about on #evolt. Dan'll probably just make me | talk to eliza all night *:) | From joshua at alphashop.com Thu Oct 11 10:34:02 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:34:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <079d01c15268$79865e10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <07c701c1526b$2291bfc0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> My turn Age: June 8, 1976 Status: Married with baby due april 20, 2002 http://www.joannolson.com/baby/index.cfm Car: POS 98 Ford Contour (Don't buy Ford cars... ever) Skills: CF, SQL, JS, Database Design, Problem Solving Hobbies: Ballroom Dancing, Running, Eating hot stuff (and lots of it) Music: Whatever... just give me change every once in a while Political View: I do not really care to judge any person based on their political views. If they hate the military, love it, don't care, then I don't care. Two things I do not tolerate: 1. Racism. 2. Bad work ethic, so I'm sorta Right Wing. But, I do think some people are handed a bad lot in life and do need some assistance. So, I'm sorta Left Wing. Pro-choice (Left), Pro Big-Corporation (Right) I don't really know what I am, but please, please have a good work ethic. :) Religious View: Whatever floats yer boat (sorry if that's offensive to anyone) Strength: Self-motivated problem solver Weakness: same. I tend to jump into things without waiting for others to catch up. -joshua From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 11 10:42:40 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:42:40 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read Message-ID: <01c1526b$46e86c20$d54a149a@rudy> > As far as viewing member info, at this point that only applies > to email addresses on the user pages. However, I'm not at > all sure if this will change with the new members' pages. i would think so, eventually, but it doesn't have to right away right now that user page is pulling data from the USERS table, including links to articles the member pages we've been talking about are for MEMBER records i know the confusion is partly my fault, because i tend to use the word "member" without always making the above qualification, but you have to start thinking about "member pages" and "members" as something different from all the users and userids and so on that we have in our database up to this point the situation is further complicated by people talking about "evolt members" as including everyone who makes up the community -- list subscribers, article authors, admins, and even casual site visitors anyhow, the member pages project, which will allow people to enter information about themselves, makes a pretty major assumption -- a MEMBER is a person who has a USER record, i.e. userid/password, and you must log in to enter member page information -- and will get an *additional* database record, a new MEMBER record which will be tied to the USER record existing code which references the USER table should not be affected (except some may want to be enhanced, see below) > Are we going to have different Priv levels for info aside from Privs 1 and 2, > which are logged in and not logged in user? (The member pages will also > change slightly the writeups provided for anon and logged in user.) i gotta clarify this again too, my bad for not doing so in my other email yesterday the PRIV levels are 0=public 1=user (i.e. has a USER record, userid/password) 2=member (i.e. has a MEMBER record) 3=admin 4=god let's say you're a user, and you come to the evolt site unless you log in, you will be treated as though you were PRIV=0 if you log in, you will be treated according to your PRIV level note: the login procedure has to be revised to put this into effect -- right now it doesn't search for a MEMBER record to assign userpriv=2 helps? rudy From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Oct 11 11:08:13 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Oct 11 11:08:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <004f01c15268$219565c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> References: <457557567.20011011095911@kfx-design.co.uk> <20011011101249.349d6402.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> <004f01c15268$219565c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <20011011170247.34c08596.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:19:33 -0400, "Michele Foster" wrote: > Garrett, > > Are you around this weekend to participate in codefest via IRC? Approx. > start time is 12:00 EST (5:00 GMT) on Saturday. 5 in the afternoon... cool, I get my traditional saturday lie-in then *:) I'm there already. > Codefest files are located here: > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/index.html Ta. > (p.s. Eliza's gone MIA, and with Dean gone, I don't anticipate her finding > her way home on her own .. or maybe he took her with him? ) *sniff* Who's not going to make me coffee now?! G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 14:50:07 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 14:50:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <0e6bd1250190ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Scott Dexter wrote on 11/10/01 3:42 pm >> Political Stance: slightly left of Bill Maher, slightly right of Erika >Meyer > >That has got to be one of the most beautiful descriptions I've seen in a >long time > >Damn that makes me smile Me too. Someone wanna forward it to Erika? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 14:54:24 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 14:54:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <0eaf72954190ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Joshua Olson wrote on 11/10/01 4:41 pm > Two things >I do not tolerate: 1. Racism. Normally a left-wing speciality (not tolerating it I mean) >2. Bad work ethic, so I'm sorta Right Wing. Given that a major strand of left thinking came from the working class (miners, dockers, steelmen), not sure that follows. >But, I do think some people are handed a bad lot in life and do need some >assistance. So, I'm sorta Left Wing. Pro-choice (Left), Pro >Big-Corporation (Right) I don't really know what I am, but please, please >have a good work ethic. :) heh. Sure. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From joshua at alphashop.com Thu Oct 11 14:56:45 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Thu Oct 11 14:56:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <0eaf72954190ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <085d01c1528f$d73c2a90$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" Subject: Re: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios : Joshua Olson wrote on 11/10/01 4:41 pm : : > Two things : >I do not tolerate: 1. Racism. : : Normally a left-wing speciality (not tolerating it I mean) : : >2. Bad work ethic, so I'm sorta Right Wing. : : Given that a major strand of left thinking came from the working : class (miners, dockers, steelmen), not sure that follows. Uh oh, caught in my own trap. I'm afraid I'm underequiped to carry on a politics debate. -joshua From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:06:03 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:06:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <043ab0706200ba1PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Joshua Olson wrote on 11/10/01 4:21 pm >: music: techno, trance, electronica, ambient, >: industrial, classical, gregorian chant, >: and bagpipes > >Bagpipes?? :) Never heard that out of your winamp shoutcast feed before. Ah, you need to listen to some Mouth Music: http://www.rykodisc.com/Catalog/CatalogArtist_01.asp?Action=Get&Artist_ID=1 24 or some Shooglenifty: http://www.shoogle.com/ Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From joshua at alphashop.com Thu Oct 11 15:08:44 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:08:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <043ab0706200ba1PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <086701c15291$83acf3d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" Subject: Re: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios : Joshua Olson wrote on 11/10/01 4:21 pm : : >: music: techno, trance, electronica, ambient, : >: industrial, classical, gregorian chant, : >: and bagpipes : > : >Bagpipes?? :) Never heard that out of your winamp shoutcast feed before. : : Ah, you need to listen to some Mouth Music: : http://www.rykodisc.com/Catalog/CatalogArtist_01.asp?Action=Get&Artist_ID=1 : 24 Ok ok! I said "your winamp shoutcast feed", refering to Jeff's particular choices for feed... not implying that none exist. :) Good golly! -joshua From r937 at interlog.com Thu Oct 11 15:12:58 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:12:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <01c15290$f5777720$d54a149a@rudy> > I'm afraid I'm underequiped mensch, das soltest du nie sagen, mann! this banter really belongs on thechat anyway dan, any chance you will be working on the UEUE (universal evolt userid enhancement) during codefest? i want to make sure the priv/userpriv mixup is indeed dead and buried, and maybe drop the redundant columns now... rudy From em at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:14:08 2001 From: em at members.evolt.org (Emily Christensen) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:14:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <043ab0706200ba1PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <006101c15284$d46da240$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> > >Bagpipes?? :) Never heard that out of your winamp shoutcast feed before. I'm dating a guy who plays the bagpipes. (Not kidding!) Em From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:14:54 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:14:54 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read Message-ID: <0f7995914200ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Michele Foster wrote on 11/10/01 4:13 pm > >Sorry, I've been sleeping .. No prob. >what's this write up for? A new FAQ for weo? For thecode, yup: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563740.html http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563753.html http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563754.html in addition to Dan's input: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563742.html >I've only skimmed this, but a couple points below. > > >| * Admin: Can approve, edit and expire articles. Can (will be able to?) >| add, edit and delete categories. Can view member info even if >| generally hidden. > >Not at all sure what the reference to categories means here. Please >expand/clarify. As in Backend, Code, Commentary & Society etc. >Admins can also edit all comments but not delete them. Yup >As >far as viewing member info, at this point that only applies to email >addresses on the user pages. Yup - that's the only data which can be hidden from lower Privs. >However, I'm not at all sure if this will >change with the new members' pages. Wouldn't expect it to, as it's not been discussed as far as I've seen. >Are we going to have different Priv >levels for info aside from Privs 1 and 2, which are logged in and not logged >in user? (The member pages will also change slightly the writeups provided >for anon and logged in user.) Don't see a need, but open to suggestions. >| * Godmin: Can remove comments. Other stuff - someone want to fill >| this in? > >Permanently delete articles (I think?) .. tho this may be just brute forced, >and is done very seldom. The only time I can remember was the one which took over your browser and did nasty stuff - it was deleted so Admins wouldn't get screwed if they viewed it. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:19:17 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:19:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <0fa5d1919200ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Emily Christensen wrote on 11/10/01 7:44 pm >I'm dating a guy who plays the bagpipes. (Not kidding!) Scottish Highland, Scottish Lowland, Irish, Northumbrian, Breton, Galician or other? This is a checkbox question, not a radio button one btw Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From em at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:25:07 2001 From: em at members.evolt.org (Emily Christensen) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:25:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios References: <0fa5d1919200ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <009301c15286$5d5177c0$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin > > >I'm dating a guy who plays the bagpipes. (Not kidding!) > > Scottish Highland, Scottish Lowland, Irish, Northumbrian, Breton, > Galician or other? Definitely Highland, and also the Uilleann pipes. I don't know about the others. I haven't heard him play yet -- we've only gone out a few times. Em From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 15:55:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:55:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <086701c15291$83acf3d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > Ok ok! I said "your winamp shoutcast feed", refering > to Jeff's particular choices for feed... not implying > that none exist. :) Good golly! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< don't think i played it for ya when you were here. http://161.58.178.38:2550 if it's not scottish it's crap. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 16:02:32 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:02:32 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: <0f7995914200ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <009901c15298$0d7bac40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" | | >what's this write up for? A new FAQ for weo? | | For thecode, yup: Ok, think I get it .. sorta .. hehe | > | >| * Admin: Can approve, edit and expire articles. Can (will be able to?) | >| add, edit and delete categories. Can view member info even if | >| generally hidden. | > | >Not at all sure what the reference to categories means here. Please | >expand/clarify. | | As in Backend, Code, Commentary & Society etc. I understand what categories are.. however, I've not heard any mention in the past of adding, editing or deleting categories. This is what I was asking for clarification on. Has this been discussed in the past? Is there a compelling reason, at this time, why we'd even consider making this an "Admin" function and taking the time to build a web-based backend for handling this? My understanding is that only those with access to the live DB (whether that be weo's or teo's or both) can actually make changes directly to the DB to categories. Or am I still confused? Thanks, Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 16:05:12 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:05:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <079d01c15268$79865e10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > : car: 2002 inferno red pt cruiser limited edition > > I thought you ordered a gold colored one? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i did, but apparently they only made a very few of them during the month of february 2000. so, i got my second choice which i'm finding i like better now anyway. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : skills: [...] dressing without wearing *any* natural > : fibers > > Not to mention in any color imaginable. If you say, > "hey jeff, wear something orange", he'll come out > orange from head to foot looking like a damned pumpkin. > And, he can claim the whole outfit only cost him a > buck-fifty, a coat hanger, and a smile. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that's not as true as it used to be. i've bought alot more new clothes lately. got these sweet red nikes the other day ... but i digress. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 16:09:44 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:09:44 2001 Subject: Member/User Pages ... was ... Re: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: <01c1526b$46e86c20$d54a149a@rudy> Message-ID: <00a401c15299$0ec5c300$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Rudy, Oh my was I messed up :( You've made it all very clear now. However, I have a question now .. ;) Where will the new member pages be accessed from ? I thought the user pages, such as this one: http://evolt.org/user/Mishka/4292/index.html were going to be modified to become the member pages (or what we are now officially referring to as the member pages ). So, where do/will the member pages be? Are we making an entirely different *.e.o. site for them? Are they linked in any way to m.e.o. (can't be). Thanks again Rudy :) Mich From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 16:17:45 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:17:45 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read In-Reply-To: <009901c15298$0d7bac40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > | As in Backend, Code, Commentary & Society etc. > > I understand what categories are.. however, I've not > heard any mention in the past of adding, editing or > deleting categories. This is what I was asking for > clarification on. Has this been discussed in the past? > Is there a compelling reason, at this time, why we'd > even consider making this an "Admin" function and taking > the time to build a web-based backend for handling this? > My understanding is that only those with access to the > live DB (whether that be weo's or teo's or both) can > actually make changes directly to the DB to categories. > Or am I still confused? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yeah, still confused -- probably cause you never saw the original admin for thesite. you used to be able to add/edit/delete/publish/unpublish categories. the admin that created the category and the date it was created were reported in the application. maybe even the admin that published it along with its published date are reported as well. it's been awhile since i've seen it. the important thing to note is that we shouldn't have to rely on manual changes to the database to make these sorts of changes -- especially when it won't take me very long at all to build this application. something else to think about -- if this is to be an open-source cms with others using it, we really should consider making the administration of the cms as simple as possible. the fewer things that have to be done via direct connection to the database the better it will be for everyone. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 16:18:46 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:18:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] Linking Related Articles and Old Article Revival Tasks Message-ID: <00b201c1529a$52c88a00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hey Folks, I'm just pulling together all the additional information from this week to add to the task list for this weekend. I have seen any comments on these two tasks, and thought I would throw them back into the pot to see if anyone has any comments. It's fair enough to say that these tasks are low priority and leave them off the task list at this time; however, I don't want to make that decision on my own. So, if anyone has comments, please let me (us) know. [New Feature] Linking related articles (i.e. "You might also be interested in these articles"). Jeff, how to do this? (Or you can do this?) What changes need to be done to the DB to get this to work? Who's going to decide which articles get cross-linked? [New Feature] Old Article Revival Has this item received consensus to proceed? How to do this? (Similar to f.e.o. Article Headline?) What changes need to be done to the DB to get this to work? Who's going to decide which articles get revived, how often this is updated, where this information appears, and how it looks within the current front page? Thanks, Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 16:20:10 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:20:10 2001 Subject: Member/User Pages ... was ... Re: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read In-Reply-To: <00a401c15299$0ec5c300$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > Where will the new member pages be accessed from ? I > thought the user pages, such as this one: > http://evolt.org/user/Mishka/4292/index.html > were going to be modified to become the member pages > (or what we are now officially referring to as the > member pages ). > > So, where do/will the member pages be? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i see no reason why that can't still be the case. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are we making an entirely different *.e.o. site for > them? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< heck no. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are they linked in any way to m.e.o. (can't be). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< in *any* way? sure, if the user chooses to put in the m.e.o. url. *grin* thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 11 16:30:03 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:30:03 2001 Subject: Fwd: RE: [thesite] thecode FAQ - everyone read References: Message-ID: <00bd01c1529b$e3a16be0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Jeff, ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | michele, | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > From: Michele Foster | > | > | As in Backend, Code, Commentary & Society etc. | > | > Or am I still confused? | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | yeah, still confused -- probably cause you never saw the original admin for | thesite. you used to be able to add/edit/delete/publish/unpublish | categories. Wow, got that right .. never knew this was an option in the past. Now I see what Martin's getting at. the important thing to note is that we shouldn't have to rely | on manual changes to the database to make these sorts of changes -- | especially when it won't take me very long at all to build this application. I'll add it to your list of things to do ;) | | something else to think about -- if this is to be an open-source cms with | others using it, we really should consider making the administration of the | cms as simple as possible. the fewer things that have to be done via direct | connection to the database the better it will be for everyone. Yup, this is very true. Thanks for the clarification, Michele From skaiser1 at skdesigns.com Thu Oct 11 16:37:21 2001 From: skaiser1 at skdesigns.com (Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:37:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <01c151f8$ba880460$d54a149a@rudy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011011125753.01dba450@mail.midtown.net> Participant info (IRC) for Codefest Skills related to web work: Over 5 years' full time experience with web design, development, graphics, accessibility, usability, information architecture, writing, editing, photo retouching, project coordination and management, training, teaching. HTML, CSS, some JavaScript, lots of PDF conversion and editing work, playing with lots of other things, such as Flash Main programs (PC): HomeSite, TopStyle, Photoshop, Adobe Acrobat (and the Pitstop editing module) and a little of Illustrator. Some familiarity with a bunch of other programs, too (Fireworks, Dreamweaver.....) Occupation: have had my own full time web design and development business (SKDesigns) since August, 1996. -- Shirley E. Kaiser, M.A. SKDesigns mailto:skaiser at skdesigns.com Website Design, Development http://www.skdesigns.com/ Pianist, Composer http://www.shirleykaiser.com/ Brainstorms and Raves http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/ Moderator, I-Design http://www.adventive.com/lists/idesign/summary.html From skaiser1 at skdesigns.com Thu Oct 11 16:48:16 2001 From: skaiser1 at skdesigns.com (Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:48:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011011125753.01dba450@mail.midtown.net> References: <01c151f8$ba880460$d54a149a@rudy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011011142624.0292d960@mail.midtown.net> At 02:19 PM 10/11/2001, I wrote: >Participant info (IRC) for Codefest > >Skills related to web work: >...... Sorry for the brevity. I'm buried at the moment with a client. I'm happy to write more, but I didn't see any specific information about what to write about, so I just tossed in some of my web work stuff off the top of my head for now. Let me know if there's a Bio list of information that you'd like to have.... Warmly, Shirley -- Shirley E. Kaiser, M.A. SKDesigns mailto:skaiser at skdesigns.com Website Design, Development http://www.skdesigns.com/ Pianist, Composer http://www.shirleykaiser.com/ Brainstorms and Raves http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/ Moderator, I-Design http://www.adventive.com/lists/idesign/summary.html From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 18:18:29 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 11 18:18:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest 2001 participant bios Message-ID: <05c673518230ba1PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> .jeff wrote on 11/10/01 9:56 pm >http://161.58.178.38:2550 > >if it's not scottish it's crap. Ah, bring out the shortbread, you've a place in the Scottish Tourist Board ^W^W^W visitscotland.com *grin* Scots Wha Hae, followed by A Hundred Pipers Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 20:35:50 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 11 20:35:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] Photos on User Pages In-Reply-To: <004101c15265$a3f1ec80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > I thought of something else for the member pages. Are we going to allow > members to upload their own pictures? Or is the idea that they store the > picture on their own server (could be an meo account), and just > provide the URL to that picture as an attribute value? The user pages should definitely include a photo. That's vital for the community. I'll leave implementation discussion to others though. I guess we'll be considering storage space, bandwidth, speed of access, etc. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 11 20:40:56 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 11 20:40:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] Linking Related Articles and Old Article Revival Tasks In-Reply-To: <00b201c1529a$52c88a00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > [New Feature] Linking related articles > Who's going to decide which articles get cross-linked? Suggested by authors (if at all) or approvers, and approved by article approvers. > [New Feature] Old Article Revival > Has this item received consensus to proceed? From me, yes. > How to do this? (Similar to f.e.o. Article Headline?) Potentially. > What changes need to be done to the DB to get this to work? Probably a single "headline?" type field and a page to admin it. > Who's going to decide which articles get revived, how often this > is updated, where this information appears, and how it looks within the current front page? Revivals based on suggestion from anyone at all? Updated whenever (1 day to 1 week?). We could accept layout concepts from anyone willing to submit one and decide on one (similar to how the cubes got in I guess). We need a name for it too. It's not generally an old favourite (those are in the top rated article list), or a popular one (those are under hot discussions), but something we think is relevant at the time or perhaps deserving of more discussion/ratings, etc. We could back it up with an explanation (to anyone confused by an old article appearing on the frontdoor) in the FAQ category. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 12 01:41:05 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 12 01:41:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] Photos on User Pages Message-ID: <085bb1441060ca1PCOW034M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 12/10/01 3:35 am >The user pages should definitely include a photo. That's vital for the >community. Option for a photo - wouldn't want to make it mandatory cos some might really *not* want one. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Oct 12 10:23:19 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Oct 12 10:23:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Codefest: updated files Message-ID: <00b601c15331$d605ece0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks, Updated Codefest Bios and the main page with hotel and irc info. I didn't modify the task list, as we can use thesite archives to refer back too for detailed information. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/ See ya'll there .. or on IRC. Michele From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Fri Oct 12 16:44:24 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Fri Oct 12 16:44:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] Searching tips Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD217@arnold.bedrock.com> A great and happy hello to everyone here! I was thinking about some great additions to thesite. So, I was going to ask on thelist. All sorts of red flags proceeded to rise and showed me that I had to join thesite. I'm apparently well-trained. Now, I think, maybe there is this functionality already? So, let me begin by asking: Is there a search for tips? If so, is there an IE (Information Extraction) engine to derive a statistically significant Canonical category for the tips which are submitted? There you go. I could read the source, but, by Mercy, its Friday, and the 55-60 hours of coding this week have turned my eyes inside out. Please, some compassion. From r937 at interlog.com Fri Oct 12 22:30:31 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (r937 at interlog.com) Date: Fri Oct 12 22:30:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] data model diagram Message-ID: hola codefestians! here's that updated diagram i promised after extracting the evolttest.sql file from the sourceforge zip, i fed it into ERwin -- no problem, it took it completely in stride then i moved some of the tables around so that they were all laid out horizontally then i did several screen grabs, carefully pasting each one into microsoft paint (this was the tedious part, cause you gotta trim the chrome, and overlay them very carefully) then i saved the result (a half meg bmp file), opened it in fireworks, set transparency, optimized the palette, and saved as a gif -- http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif then i went back into ERwin, defined a couple of missing relationships, coloured them, made a best guess as to the PKs of a couple of other tables, and went through the whole screen grab process again, but this time, just before saving the bmp, i noticed i had forgotten one relationship, so i drew it in by hand http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evoltb.gif then i decided i didn't want to play with ERwin any more instead, i'll wait until the weekend is over, and see what sort of table changes we need to make, and repeat the process then i'll be away from the computer until at least 3 p.m. saturday (2 p.m. central time) playing football if you have any questions, leave me a note, and i'll check my email before heading out in the morning have a beer on me, folks or maybe buy me one -- i didn't get that job i interviewed for ;o( rudy --------------------------------------------- From em at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 13 08:08:20 2001 From: em at members.evolt.org (Emily Christensen) Date: Sat Oct 13 08:08:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] category descriptions/irc arrival time Message-ID: <002f01c153db$b4b3a5a0$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> Hi guys, I'm not sure if any of the CodeFestians will be checking email today, so will one of the IRC participants let Michele/everyone else know I should log onto IRC around 4 p.m. EST. (How could I forget the Florida State-Miami game is today? Um, that's football.) I agreed to (try to) write the category descriptions, and I don't want anyone to think I flaked out. Go Noles! Em From bruce at heerssen.com Sat Oct 13 11:36:02 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Sat Oct 13 11:36:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] gonna have to but out of irc codefest Message-ID: <3BC85D95.9090701@heerssen.com> At least for a little while due to inclement weather. There's lots of thunder and lightning and I don't want to fry the 'puter. Maybe one day I can afford a good UPS. -Bruce From mwarden at leo.evolt.org Sat Oct 13 13:28:05 2001 From: mwarden at leo.evolt.org (mwarden at leo.evolt.org) Date: Sat Oct 13 13:28:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest Message-ID: we're here... irc.evolt.org #evolt if you wanna join us on IRC. see ya there! -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From em at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 13 17:25:04 2001 From: em at members.evolt.org (Emily Christensen) Date: Sat Oct 13 17:25:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] category descriptions Message-ID: <002b01c15429$7c130c60$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> Here are the rough drafts of seven category descriptions (I still need to look at site development, code, visual design, and backend.) My notes are in brackets. Emily JOBS A good jobs page is the web geek's best friend, especially in the often-uncertain tech industry. And for employers looking for the best talent, the evolt.org community is the perfect target audience: Our thousands of members are experts in every area of the web development and technology fields. If you are interested in posting a job listing, please first read the submission guidelines. The listing will stay live on the site for xxx days. WEB BUSINESS You've got the skills but can't pay the bills. You're a design goddess, a database guru, someone who writes code in his sleep. But you can't write a proposal to save your life, market yourself effectively, or manage to keep a positive bank balance. That's why your friends at evolt.org have created a place for you to learn the tips and tricks to keep you in the web business game. The articles in this category deal with marketing, (etc.) [I didn't follow the conversation about the creation of this cat, so lemme know if y'all have something else in mind.] FAQ Here's everything you need to know about evolt.org: where we came from, what we do, and why Jeff doesn't own clothing made of natural fibers. COMMENTARY & SOCIETY If you haven't noticed, us techie types love to "share." If the spirit moves you to rant about the WC3 or wax nostalgic about your Commodore 64, post the screed here. This is also where we post notices about evolt gatherings - be they CodeFests or Beervolts - coming soon to a city near you. IA/USABILITY Whether you're a disciple of Jakob Nielsen or you design everything with Flash, here's where you should go to find out how to best serve your audience by creating sites that are usable and intuitive for your target audience. [Should we spell out "information architecture" somewhere? Can we manage to do this in the title and not in the drop box?] SUGGESTIONS: Have a problem with us? A brilliant idea? Submit it here and we'll hash it out. REVIEWS & LINKS [I was thinking that maybe we can change the name of this category to "reviews" and preface each headline with what is being reviewed. i.e., "Book: 'Don't Make me Think'." "Web site: webcms.org." Make sense? Yes? No? Now that we have deo do we really even need a links option?] When we're not doing web work, these are the books we're reading about web work. SOFTWARE News about, commentary on, and reviews of the software that's supposed to make our jobs easier. From em at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 13 17:30:32 2001 From: em at members.evolt.org (Emily Christensen) Date: Sat Oct 13 17:30:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] fyi: personal info Message-ID: <003b01c1542a$3f849e20$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> I didn't get on board with codefest until Thursday night. So, on the "better late than never" theory, and since I've never really been a participant on thesite, here's my info: Age: 23 Location: Wichita, Kan., U.S. Skills: Visual design, writing, editing Interests: Travel (you would too if you lived here...), finishing college, reading reading reading, writing some, hiking, drinking copious amounts of red wine. Hope y'all are having a good time. Have a beer for me. Em From r937 at interlog.com Sat Oct 13 18:13:49 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Sat Oct 13 18:13:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] category descriptions Message-ID: <01c1543c$c907ff40$0749149a@rudy> nice job, em, i like your style i think we'd be better leaving individuals' names out, though -- like jeff's in FAQ in Commentary, it's w3c, not wc3 (typo, most likely, eh?) > Should we spell out "information architecture" somewhere? ayup >SUGGESTIONS: are we keeping this category? >REVIEWS & LINKS > [I was thinking that maybe we can change the name of this category > to "reviews" yes, links would now be better in d.e.o >SOFTWARE another misunderstood and underutilized category rudelicious From isaac at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 13 20:52:04 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Sat Oct 13 20:52:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] category descriptions In-Reply-To: <002b01c15429$7c130c60$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> Message-ID: jobs desc is good. > business game. The articles in this category deal with marketing, > (etc.) [I > didn't follow the conversation about the creation of this cat, so > lemme know if y'all have something else in mind.] marketing, basic accounting, managing workflow, legal issues, etc. otherwise, desc is fine. > FAQ > Here's everything you need to know about evolt.org: where we came > from, what > we do, and why Jeff doesn't own clothing made of natural fibers. fine. > COMMENTARY & SOCIETY > If you haven't noticed, us techie types love to "share." If the > spirit moves > you to rant about the WC3 or wax nostalgic about your Commodore > 64, post the > screed here. > > This is also where we post notices about evolt gatherings - be they > CodeFests or Beervolts - coming soon to a city near you. eventually we'll intro a community cat to handle the announcements. more importantly, commentary is meant for whinging and headlemur-style rants. > IA/USABILITY > Whether you're a disciple of Jakob Nielsen or you design everything with > Flash, here's where you should go to find out how to best serve your > audience by creating sites that are usable and intuitive for your target > audience. [Should we spell out "information architecture" > somewhere? Can we > manage to do this in the title and not in the drop box?] talk to javier about this one perhaps. otherwise, what you have is a good start. > SUGGESTIONS: > Have a problem with us? A brilliant idea? Submit it here and we'll hash it > out. i'd also mention thesite. a lot of the resulting discussion will happen there, and we'll encourage them to sign-up and get involved. > REVIEWS & LINKS > [I was thinking that maybe we can change the name of this category to > "reviews" and preface each headline with what is being reviewed. i.e., > "Book: 'Don't Make me Think'." "Web site: webcms.org." Make > sense? Yes? No? > Now that we have deo do we really even need a links option?] no, i've said that before. links are no irrelevant. you suggestion re titles is good. > SOFTWARE > News about, commentary on, and reviews of the software that's supposed to > make our jobs easier. hmm, is there anything we can add to this? maybe not. good work overall. :) i From djc at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 14 13:03:52 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sun Oct 14 13:03:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest interim wrapup Message-ID: <3BC9D19A.2050001@members.evolt.org> as we're winding down codefest today, we've had much success this weekend. more will come later in an official wrapup, but for now i'd like to share the fruits of a labor intensive weekend with you. the new name for our unified login system, originally christened by rudy as UEUE(universal evolt userid effort, pronounced "you wee you wee"), ladies and gentlemen, i give you UEUEUEUEUEUEUE: ultra exciting ubiqutous errorfree united evolt userid effort, uniquely empowering unification (of) everyone under everything The codefest 2001 gang has now left the building. From martin at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 14 14:24:53 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sun Oct 14 14:24:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] category descriptions Message-ID: <0d1a71225190ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Emily Christensen wrote on 13/10/01 9:56 pm >REVIEWS & LINKS >[I was thinking that maybe we can change the name of this category to >"reviews" and preface each headline with what is being reviewed. i.e., >"Book: 'Don't Make me Think'." "Web site: webcms.org." Make sense? Yes? No? >Now that we have deo do we really even need a links option?] Good question, Em. Given that we've been discouraging the 'hey, check out this site' type submissions for weo, dropping '& LINKS' sounds like a damned good idea. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Sun Oct 14 15:43:50 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Sun Oct 14 15:43:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest interim wrapup In-Reply-To: <3BC9D19A.2050001@members.evolt.org> References: <3BC9D19A.2050001@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <20011014214545.3224ce21.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:55:38 -0500, "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > ultra exciting ubiqutous errorfree united evolt userid effort, > uniquely empowering unification (of) everyone under everything > > The codefest 2001 gang has now left the building. And the planet judging by that name *:) G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From martin at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 14 18:29:01 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sun Oct 14 18:29:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest interim wrapup Message-ID: <061952929230ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 14/10/01 6:55 pm >as we're winding down codefest today, we've had much success this >weekend. Great stuff. I trust installation of beer and/or other intoxicating stuff was part of the success... >more will come later in an official wrapup, Looking forward to it >but for now i'd >like to share the fruits of a labor intensive weekend with you. > >the new name for our unified login system, originally christened by rudy >as UEUE(universal evolt userid effort, pronounced "you wee you wee"), >ladies and gentlemen, i give you UEUEUEUEUEUEUE: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Sounds fantastic. Are there firm migration & communication plans already for people with multiple logins (IOW do we know exactly how we're going to move them over, including how to tell them), or do we need to still think about those things? (not that that's a problem - if we need to do that, then let's get on and do it!) Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From mnickel at new.rr.com Sun Oct 14 23:41:42 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Sun Oct 14 23:41:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> Greetings! Ok, Intro:.... (I'm Bill S. Preston, Esquire........ and I'm Ted Theodore Logan... Together we're WILD STALYONS!!!) My name is Mark and I was able to attend Codefest 2001!! Wheeee! Dan encouraged me to attend and I had a great time. If you were watching the CodeFestCam, I was the tall guy hunched over and watching Dan do *stuff*... :) BTW, it was great to meet you all IRL... While giving Dan a hard time because he forgot to build the Oracle extensions into PHP, he shared with me the vision of UEUE. Since User Authentication, Authorization, and general Security is kinda my hobby, I was able to recommend a design that I had seen in the O'Reilly "Eagle" book. With some "encouragement" from Dan, :) I was assigned/delegated the task of putting together a little write-up of how we could use the Ticketing idea from the "Eagle" book applied to UEUE. (/me don's flame-retardant suit) Please see my m.e.o site: http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and take a gander at the UEUE stuff. The Infrastructure documentation is a little bit rambling but if you read the relevant stuff from the "Eagle" link and the proposed extensions that I recommend, you should get the general idea of how things would work. I will be cleaning up the documentation as I get feedback from folks... To Martin's point: > Are there firm migration & communication plans already > for people with multiple logins (IOW do we know exactly > how we're going to move them over, including how to tell > them), or do we need to still think about those things? I hadn't really gotten to the migration/communication point yet. One possibility would be to establish a hierarchy among all of the evolt.org sites. eg: a.e.o login id's would have a higher priority/ranking than w.e.o id's... So whichever ID you have that fits into the highest level in the hierarchy would become your UEUE ID... Something like that.... I would probably be a good exercise to run through the USER table and determine how many accounts are duplicates... Possibly doing a COUNT() on a GROUP BY user.email_address or something... This would of course assume that the user in question would have used the same email address throughout all their evolt.org ID's.... Again, please forgive the rambling nature of the UEUE documentation. Basically it's the same as the O'Reilly stuff except that it adds authorization checking for each Child Server and it's done in PHP instead of mod_perl. In that waaaay far future, this Ticketing-style stuff will probably break down and we'll have to go with some type of XML-RPC/SOAP infrastructure. Then the Child Servers/Sites wouldn't all have to exist in the *.evolt.org domain... :) Again, Pleasure to meet you all! Mark Oh, profile/skillz stuff: Day Job: Senior Systems Analyst Skillz: RedHat/Slackware Linux, HPUX, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Progress 4GL/DB, Perl, Java, Enhydra, PHP, a bit o' the Javascript, HTML, XML, Pretty much all aspects of Unix Systems Administration... Jack-of-All Trades :) DB2 if I have to... No applicable knowledge of Oracle (gasp, I know). That's why I like the evolt.org stuff. Gives me a chance to learn it. Been doing my professional life for about 7 years and most of the above technologies for 6 or so.... Well, except for the XML.. :) But I mean really, how many people have *actually* been using it in a production mode for 5+ years... :) -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 15 00:18:50 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 15 00:18:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] Searching tips In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD217@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: > Is there a search for tips? If so, is there an IE (Information Extraction) > engine to derive a statistically significant Canonical category > for the tips which are submitted? Hey, Mr Tips (Dean Mah) is currently in China on holiday. He does have something online and in progress but I can't remember the exact URL. Anyone? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Mon Oct 15 04:57:14 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Mon Oct 15 04:57:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> References: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011015105909.28b7b6b7.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:47:26 -0500, Mark Nickel wrote: > (/me don's flame-retardant suit) > Please see my m.e.o site: http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and take a > gander at the UEUE stuff. [From http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue.html] "I recommend using the phortify project as a starting point: http://phortify.sourceforge.net" Cool, if we go with this reccomendation, then count me in if you need any help. I've used phortify on a few clients sites already, so if anyone knows how to break it, that'd be me. G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 15 06:15:44 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 15 06:15:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Searching tips References: Message-ID: <004001c1556a$c609a620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Isaac, Dean didn't mention to me that anything existed for the search function yet (Matt or Dan?). We finished the backend tip editing functionality, but we didn't get started on the search. However, I'm not sure if someone said they'd work on it in the coming weeks. Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > Is there a search for tips? If so, is there an IE (Information Extraction) | > engine to derive a statistically significant Canonical category | > for the tips which are submitted? | | Hey, | | Mr Tips (Dean Mah) is currently in China on holiday. He does have something | online and in progress but I can't remember the exact URL. Anyone? | From mnickel at new.rr.com Mon Oct 15 07:52:57 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Mon Oct 15 07:52:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] PHP Templating Engine Message-ID: <3BCADD85.7788EB15@new.rr.com> With the subtle shift to using PHP for more stuff... One should be asking the question, do I want to be stuffing HTML code into my nice, clean, and tidy PHP code. The answer should be no. :) Separation of logic from presentation is, IMHO, a good thing. PHPLib is one engine, but I've been using Smarty more and more... http://www.phpinsider.com/php/code/Smarty/ I forgot to mention this at the CodeFest to the folks working on the Tip conversion from Perl to PHP. ( as well as forgetting your names... :( sorry ) I know that there are several templating engines to choose from, but this one seems to be really useful. It's even got some HTML builder functions for SELECT HTML form elements, stuff like that... Granted there is a bit more overhead with using an engine rather than straight PHP code, but Smarty tries to compensate for this by generating "compiled" templates. So after the initial access, the engine referes to a compiled version rather than running through the template process. By compiled, I mean straight PHP code... All and all it's pretty clever... :) Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From joshua at alphashop.com Mon Oct 15 08:12:33 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Mon Oct 15 08:12:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <008801c1557c$39daa2a0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Good work on the login scheme. I do have one question, though. How is authentication effected by dynamic proxies? With a dynamic proxy a user may change IP addresses mid-session. It seems that such a change would/could invalidate a "ticket". TIA, -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Nickel" Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal : (/me don's flame-retardant suit) : Please see my m.e.o site: http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and take a : gander at the UEUE stuff. From mnickel at www.llamacom.com Mon Oct 15 08:32:52 2001 From: mnickel at www.llamacom.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Mon Oct 15 08:32:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <008801c1557c$39daa2a0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: Joshua Olson wrote: > authentication effected by dynamic proxies? With a dynamic proxy a user may > change IP addresses mid-session. It seems that such a change would/could > invalidate a "ticket". (I think i'm understanding your question...) Good point. IP Address validation is another place that UEUE will diverge from the mod_perl example. We won't be doing it. In the details of the chapter, they refer to the problems of using an IP address in any part of a user authentication scheme. Because of Proxies, it is a good idea but in practice to difficult to really use. "Back in da day" of no proxies, it worked great... :) Pretty much the entire infrastructure is based on the secret key that is generated by ueue.evolt.org and replicated to all the child servers, as well as, the unique keys used to identify each Child Server. The whole key thing is similar to the "web of trust" that one builds as they use GPG/PGP. Like it said in the documentation, this is the weakest piece of the infrastructure. But because it's all centralized, we can focus significant brainpower and resources on making it really bulletproof. Thanks for your feedback. Mark From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Oct 15 09:42:01 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Oct 15 09:42:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] FW: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Message-ID: I got the following response when I posted to thelist earlier. I didn't think the post went through, so I reposted.. Oops. Anyhoo - Shouldn't MajorGumbo handle this kinda stuff? Seth > -----Original Message----- > From: Mail Delivery System [mailto:Mailer-Daemon at mail-out.namezero.com] > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:37 AM > To: seth at sethbienek.com > Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender > > > This message was created automatically by mail delivery software (Exim). > > A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its > recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: > > asish.com at namezero.com > SMTP error from remote mailer after RCPT TO:: > host m1.dnsix.com [216.34.13.242]: 554 : > Recipient address rejected: Relay access denied > > ------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------ > > Return-path: > Received: from [10.0.0.5] (helo=copper) > by mail-out.namezero.com with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) > id 15t8rg-0000uN-00 > for asish.com at namezero.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:37:12 -0700 > Received: from relay.evolt.org (HELO relay.evolt.org) > (relay.evolt.org/63.237.54.246) > by copper with SMTP; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) > Apparently from: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > On behalf of: > asish at asish.com > Received: from leo (leo.evolt.org [63.237.54.247]) > by relay.evolt.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id 13494986; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:39:19 -0500 (CDT) > Received: from mail.nodoy.com (198.103-89-63.adsl.directlink.net > [63.89.103.198]) > by leo.evolt.org (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id f9FEaZsb011085 > for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:36:35 -0500 > Received: from dtilaptop1 [64.46.160.2] by nodoy.com [63.89.103.198] > with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.5.0.R) > for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:37:15 -0500 > From: "Seth Bienek" > To: > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:34:52 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) > In-Reply-To: <00b301c15580$44270fb0$a600a8c0 at mrtnz1.ga.home.com> > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 > Importance: Normal > X-MDRemoteIP: 64.46.160.2 > X-Return-Path: seth at sethbienek.com > X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by > leo.evolt.org id f9FEaZsb011086 > Subject: [thelist] Stupid Mailreader Tricks (was: Stupid OE tip) > Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Sender: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > Errors-To: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > X-MajorGumbo-version: 1.1.6.sexy+noattachments > X-evolt-quote: I do not want to achieve immortality through my > work. I want achieve it through evolt.org. - Woody Allen > X-evolt: evolt.org - World Domination without a budget > Precedence: bulk > List-Id: evolt.org mailing list devoted to the web > > X-BeenThere: thelist at lists.evolt.org > X-NZ-Hop-Count: 1 > > > > > > Did you know you can right-justify the to, cc, title, etc fields? > > Just put > > the cursor in the field and hit Ctrl-R. > > > > Cool tip. CTRL-R also right-justifies text in the email body > (even in plain-text mode. why? who knows.) > > Something useful: > > When poring through dozens of discussion group messages, I always > read only the ones I am interested in (this is not the interesting part.) > > When I am done, I click in the window that contains the list of > messages, hit CTRL-A (to select all), then CTRL-Q (to mark all > read). I keep all my messages, but if I wanted to delete them as > well, then hitting the 'delete' key next would move them all to > the "Deleted Items" folder. > > A word of caution, if you delete a bunch of messages, make sure > you mark them as read first, or you'll have unread messages in > your deleted items folder (a big problem for us anal-retentives). :) > > > > If you are setting up your email on a new computer and you rely > heavily on filters (like moi), you can simplify your life by > exporting your rules (ALWAYS to a seperate .pst file). They will > usually even fit on a floppy (bonus!). Then set up your folders > on your new machine, import the rules, and point them to the new > folders (this is the only step you'll have to do manually) > > > > For me, the "Outlook Bar" that is set up by default in outlook is > pretty much useless. I'd prefer to see a list of the folders I > used with a summarry of the unread messages in each. It takes > about 10 seconds to set up Outlook this way. > > Click View -> Outlook Bar (to deselect it), then click View -> > Folder List (to select it) > > As an added bonus, Outlook will remember which folders you left > expanded and collapsed when you boot up in the mornings. > > > I hope these were not all considered "common knowledge". They > are just a few things that help save me TONS of time and allow me > to keep up with the list while still being able to have a day job. :) > > Best Regards, > > > Seth > > > > --------------------------------------- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 10:29:42 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 10:29:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] Searching tips In-Reply-To: <004001c1556a$c609a620$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 15, Michele Foster had something to say about Re: [thesite]... >Isaac, > >Dean didn't mention to me that anything existed for the search function yet >(Matt or Dan?). Right. No search functionality yet. thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com (i just slept for 13 hours!) From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 10:31:21 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 10:31:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] FW: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 15, Seth Bienek had something to say about [thesite] FW: Mail... >I got the following response when I posted to thelist earlier. > >I didn't think the post went through, so I reposted.. Oops. You'll get yours in the afterlife. >Anyhoo - Shouldn't MajorGumbo handle this kinda stuff? It does. but, *you* get the error when their mail program is stupid and doesn't send it to the Errors-To: header in the email and instead just sends it to the From:. Sometimes, especially with those virus scanner messages, they'll send it to the Reply-To:. *shrug* -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 15 10:40:07 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 15 10:40:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] anyone with admin to MG.. Message-ID: <3BCB013F.7030608@starkmedia.com> don't change anything in there for about 30 minutes(list subs, approvals, whatever) please... i'm making some changes to MG thnx From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 10:52:58 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 10:52:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, Mark Nickel had something to say about [thesite] My Intro and a... >If you were watching the CodeFestCam, I was the tall guy hunched over >and watching Dan do *stuff*... :) You guys don't know this, but we took a few pictures of us in different locations, then cycled them through on our "web cam" so that it looked like we were working. In actuality, well... the strippers left at around 5. >(/me don's flame-retardant suit) >Please see my m.e.o site: http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and take a >gander at the UEUE stuff. Ok. When you were explaning this all to me, I had some questions but I figured I'd just wait until I saw the doc. I still got 'em =) There were two problems that we faced when we were trying to solve this *.evolt.org multiple login stuff: 1. How to login at a central place and be recognized at all *.evolt.org sites, not just the ones which can read cf session variables 2. How to keep synchronized the member tables or have one centralized member table (IOW, you sign up for garden.evolt.org and you've really signed up for *.evolt.org and you don't need to sign up again to visit skr1ptk1dd135.evolt.org) your solution solves #1 (which is great), but 2 is a pretty big problem. let's say Joe User signs up on test.evolt.org. then, 2 minutes later, he clicks on the "Food" link and shows up on food.evolt.org. Well, food.evolt.org automatically recognizes him from his cookies, but he's not actually signed up for food.evolt.org and he doesn't exist in the database. So, he submits a recipe on food.evolt.org. Something's going to break. There is a userid foreign key field in the content (article) table that must relate back to the userid field in the user table. But, it won't because there is no matching user record. now, i came up with all kinds of whack ideas when trying to solve this stuff for food.evolt.org (like having weo spit out some xml full of all new member details, etc.) but i settled on a half-solution. If Joe User doesn't exist in the food.evolt.org database, i search weo's, and if i find him, copy all of him over, including his userid (IOW, it's not generated off of a sequence). i'll be the first to admit that this idea sucks... but i wanted to wait until we had settled on some solution before implementing anything fullblown. And I chose *this* half-solution because there wasn't a X second delay where he could sign up for another site, and not be able to login into food.evolt.org because some process hadn't yet run. So, basically, we're stuck with either: 1. doing some import process (hopefully some kind of propogation from ueue.evolt.org to the other child members) 2. getting rid of the database reference from content to user tables Anyone have thoughts on this? thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From r937 at interlog.com Mon Oct 15 11:33:17 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Mon Oct 15 11:33:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <01c15596$a7c5d4a0$904e149a@rudy> > 1. doing some import process (hopefully some kind of > propogation from ueue.evolt.org to the other child members) > 2. getting rid of the database reference from content to user tables > > Anyone have thoughts on this? 1 seems to assume all the different sites have separate databases another option is to have only one database -- then all the problems disappear, except for how you differentiate the content records of one subsite from another ;o) problem 2 is not just the FK from content to user, there are other FKs -- rating.userid, replies.userid, createdby and activeby in categorys and cattype, scheme.userid (if we build it) and possibly contact and response tables, if they have been restored to use (they died when the admin function was not carried over from evolt 1 to evolt 2) -- i don't see a "taken" column so perhaps the mail messages and answers are in some new table i don't know about? rudy From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 12:06:31 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 12:06:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <01c15596$a7c5d4a0$904e149a@rudy> Message-ID: On Oct 15, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] My Intro and a... >> 1. doing some import process (hopefully some kind of >> propogation from ueue.evolt.org to the other child members) >> 2. getting rid of the database reference from content to user tables >> >> Anyone have thoughts on this? > >1 seems to assume all the different sites have separate databases Those without databases probably wouldn't need their member tables synced, eh? ;-) Ok, rephrased: "doing some import process (hopefully some kind of propogation from ueue.evolt.org database to the other child databases)" >another option is to have only one database -- then all the problems >disappear, except for how you differentiate the content records of one >subsite from another ;o) As you'll remember, I suggested this a while ago and you said it wasn't do-able, implying that we're too far into separation to change now. I agreed. >problem 2 is not just the FK from content to user, there are other FKs -- >rating.userid, replies.userid, createdby and activeby in categorys and >cattype, scheme.userid (if we build it) good point. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 15 12:11:46 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 15 12:11:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup Message-ID: <3BCB1692.1030709@starkmedia.com> we all had a blast this weekend and got *way* more done that I could have hopped for. Thanks to everyone that travelled to make it(mich, matt, mark, jeremy) and everyone else who could make it here, and on IRC with us.. Matt edited the LOTTD page and has highlighted what we're done with: http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm category descriptions, members pages, and style sheets have been started on, and are in the works but were outside the scope of this weekend.. pics are sure to follow soon as well :) thnx again for everyone that made it and those that couldn't but still helped out! .djc. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 12:41:15 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 12:41:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup In-Reply-To: <3BCB1692.1030709@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, Daniel J. Cody had something to say about [thesite] codefest wrapup >we all had a blast this weekend and got *way* more done that I could >have hopped for. Thanks to everyone that travelled to make it(mich, >matt, mark, jeremy) and everyone else who could make it here, and on IRC >with us.. Matt edited the LOTTD page and has highlighted what we're done >with: > >http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/draft_tasks.htm > >category descriptions, members pages, and style sheets have been started >on, and are in the works but were outside the scope of this weekend.. > >pics are sure to follow soon as well :) > >thnx again for everyone that made it and those that couldn't but still >helped out! > >.djc. Yes, but most importantly, my car's odometer passed 70,000 miles on the trip back home =( I've put 40,000+ miles on it in a little over two years. Anyways, one of the LOTTD items that probably should be looked at is the "revived article". It's noted how I did it (for now). It's random -- had to be unless I wanted to go change the database. Also, because of space, the "other articles by this author" will probably only survive until we get the "you might also be interested in these articles" deal working. Btw, Michele and I did talk quite a bit about how the related articles thing would be done. And the very first thing we decided is that what was talked about on IRC (Article A is related to Article B, Article F, Article M) just ain't gonna work. More on our solution (well, the initial steps of it) in a bit... after I can remember it all (we were talking about it at like 3am after being at the Rock Bottom for 5 hours). I want to write an article about how CodeFest went. Should I leave it on my personal site or would there be an acceptable category on weo? thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 15 12:52:18 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 15 12:52:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup References: Message-ID: <3BCB2004.1030904@starkmedia.com> the commentary and society category would be good place for it :) Warden, Matt wrote: > I want to write an article about how CodeFest went. Should I leave it on > my personal site or would there be an acceptable category on weo? From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 15 18:49:16 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 15 18:49:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup References: <3BCB2004.1030904@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <005101c155d4$0f72e420$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> +1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | the commentary and society category would be good place for it :) | | Warden, Matt wrote: | | | > I want to write an article about how CodeFest went. Should I leave it on | > my personal site or would there be an acceptable category on weo? From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 15 18:56:07 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 15 18:56:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup In-Reply-To: <005101c155d4$0f72e420$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: eventually would go into a community category, but for now C&S is the best spot. +1 btw, other articles by this author looks good. revived article is a good temp fix too. will it pick from news articles too? (probably shouldn't). (i assume that TEO has no stylesheet for a reason?) > +1 > > > | the commentary and society category would be good place for it :) > | > | Warden, Matt wrote: > | > | > | > I want to write an article about how CodeFest went. Should I > leave it on > | > my personal site or would there be an acceptable category on weo? From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 20:01:11 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 20:01:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 16, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] codefest wrapup >eventually would go into a community category, but for now C&S is the best >spot. > >+1 > >btw, other articles by this author looks good. revived article is a good >temp fix too. will it pick from news articles too? (probably shouldn't). it did at first, but then... well... like 95% of the time a news article would be the randomly picked article (because back then that's basically all we had ;-), so I disallowed that category as well. >(i assume that TEO has no stylesheet for a reason?) yuppers. dan's been working on the user-selected stylesheet stuff. looks naked, eh? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mnickel at new.rr.com Mon Oct 15 21:09:07 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Mon Oct 15 21:09:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <3BCA6A5E.E3D82133@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BCB9821.E693C030@new.rr.com> New term: UEUE ID (pronounced you wee you wee i dee :) ) Feeling like a Dr. Suess book here :) The UEUE ID is *the* unique identifier, similar to the member id. It's guaranteed to be unique across all *.evolt.org sites... ueue.evolt.org will maintain a list of all *.evolt.org sites that a particular UEUE ID is a member. Ok, so to summarize a little bit... 1. Dealing with the actual act of logins across the sites is covered by the UEUE ticketing/cookie idea. 2. Problems with synching the "other" data that might not be transmitted within the cookies from the ueue.evolt.org to food.evolt.org. This Foreign Key information.... (btw, I like the food.evolt.org example, easy to type. :) ) Here are some assumptions... 1. ueue.evolt.org would contain fields that are not specific to the Child Server site. 2. each child site would still have a user table that would contain content specific stuff like the number of articles by the user for the food.evolt.org site... permission level for the site, eg: admin, contributor, head chef??, etc. :) -- Primary Key is UEUE ID 3. each Child Server will be running a version of the evolt CMS 4. each Child Server would have it's own list of article/content categories eg: food.evolt.org is going to have a different list of categories than w.e.o. Recipes, Ingredients, Store Reviews, etc. My articles, referrers and such would still be contained in a local user table but in a context specific to the food.evolt.org site. The crux of this is the actual adding of the UEUE ID and User Name to the Child Server's User table so that the user has the ability to post articles on the Child Server. Possibility: Brand New User to food.evolt.org, Existing User on w.e.o --- -------------------------------------------------------------- The user has successfully authenticated to ueue.evolt.org and their cookie jar is full of the important fields: UEUE ID, User Name, etc. When the browser is redirected to food.evolt.org, their UEUE ID looked up in the local food.evolt.org user table. It's not found--Here's the questionable part, if the UEUE ID is not found, the ColdFusion automagically adds the user to the local food.evolt.org User table and logs them in. As the user posts messages, their article counts and references are all correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. New User throughout all *.evolt.org sites. ------------------------------------------ For a new account, their UEUE ID is created, password obtained, etc. Their cookie jar is filled with appropriate data. Just like above, the Child Server automagically adds them to the local User table and they post away. So each *.evolt.org site is effectively a little island of content. Thereby allowing people use the evolt CMS without having a sophisticated infrastructure. However because each *.evolt.org is an island, this of course begs the next question: How can I know how many articles that I've written/commented upon/etc across all of the *.evolt.org sites. Global User Information ------------------------- If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already suggested, then any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User specific information will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of all Child Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for the user's content information, and pull all of that into one report or list. I think that this could certainly be done through the cron. I doubt it would need to be real-time generated. So, if food.evolt.org wants to list the articles that a User has written on other *.evolt.org sites, then it will have to run the background process to locally cache that information from the other *.evolt.org servers. Without a 100% central repository of content information, one must replicate. Dynamic queries over the network will be to expensive. Besides, the admins of food.evolt.org may not have any interest in showing the other things their users have done. They may just want to focus on food-related stuff. I'm sure I'm not suggesting anything really new... It sounds like parts of this discussion have happened in the past.. :) Please forgive me if I'm repeating an existing argument... :) I'm slowly trying to make my way through the archives... :) Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 22:12:16 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 22:12:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <3BCB9821.E693C030@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, Mark Nickel had something to say about Re: [thesite] My Intro... >Here are some assumptions... >1. ueue.evolt.org would contain fields that are not specific to the Child >Server site. >2. each child site would still have a user table that would contain content >specific stuff like the number of articles by the user for the >food.evolt.org site... permission level for the site, eg: admin, >contributor, head chef??, etc. :) -- Primary Key is UEUE ID I guess I'm not seeing how this can be done without the possibility of conflicting userids. Well, i guess all new userids would now be generated by ueue, so that's not an issue, right? >3. each Child Server will be running a version of the evolt CMS Well, no, but I don't think that matters. >Possibility: >Brand New User to food.evolt.org, Existing User on w.e.o --- >-------------------------------------------------------------- >The user has successfully authenticated to ueue.evolt.org and their cookie >jar is full of the important fields: UEUE ID, User Name, etc. When the >browser is redirected to food.evolt.org, their UEUE ID looked up in the >local food.evolt.org user table. It's not found--Here's the questionable >part, if the UEUE ID is not found, the ColdFusion automagically adds the >user to the local food.evolt.org User table and logs them in. > >As the user posts messages, their article counts and references are all >correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. I guess I could go with that. But, I'd like to somehow have the propogation outside of the evolt CMS code. Especially in the situation of a changed password or email address or something like that. >course begs the next question: How can I know how many articles that I've >written/commented upon/etc across all of the *.evolt.org sites. I'm not sure I see the need for reporting that... unless we were going to somehow have a cube-like system for overall community participation. IOW, not that big of a deal if it's troublesome. >Global User Information >------------------------- >If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already suggested, then >any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User specific information >will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of all Child >Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for the user's content >information, and pull all of that into one report or list. Ok, here's my thinking. When you sign up for www.evolt.org, you should be "signed up" for all *.evolt.org sites. So, I don't think the list of sites of which that user is a member is needed. >Without a 100% central repository of content information, one must >replicate. Dynamic queries over the network will be to expensive. All the oracle databses reside on the same server. >Besides, >the admins of food.evolt.org may not have any interest in showing the other >things their users have done. They may just want to focus on food-related >stuff. +1 >I'm sure I'm not suggesting anything really new... It sounds like parts of >this discussion have happened in the past.. :) Please forgive me if I'm >repeating an existing argument... :) I'm slowly trying to make my way >through the archives... :) Yeah. Look for "login.evolt.org". I believe it's even in the subject line. It was quite a while back. Dan was working on it (so he'd be the author of the messages). Hope that helps some. >"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." > >-Batman costume warning label Wasn't on mine, my friend. I learned the hard way... -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Mon Oct 15 22:36:29 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Mon Oct 15 22:36:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD221@arnold.bedrock.com> | >As the user posts messages, their article counts and | references are all | >correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. | | I guess I could go with that. But, I'd like to somehow have the | propogation outside of the evolt CMS code. Especially in the | situation of | a changed password or email address or something like that. Couldn't the CMS alert the DBMS, through a stored procedure? Or even the DB alert itself through a trigger, that the user is not found and then make the change? This pushes the logic into the bedrock backend, and seems to be to be a little more solid. Matt, is that what you are concerned about? | >course begs the next question: How can I know how many | articles that I've | >written/commented upon/etc across all of the *.evolt.org sites. | | I'm not sure I see the need for reporting that... unless we | were going to | somehow have a cube-like system for overall community | participation. IOW, | not that big of a deal if it's troublesome. This makes sense, not to be troubled by it. Think of your own participation in the multitude of communities in which you participate: roles and status rarely migrate or transfer across boundaries. For instance, Clark Kent didn't receive much deference in his work for saving the world by night. | | >Global User Information | >------------------------- | >If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already | suggested, then | >any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User | specific information | >will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of | all Child | >Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for | the user's content | >information, and pull all of that into one report or list. | | Ok, here's my thinking. When you sign up for www.evolt.org, | you should be | "signed up" for all *.evolt.org sites. So, I don't think the | list of sites | of which that user is a member is needed. I now see what Matt is concerned about -- I believe. Another real world example: I am a citizen of the US. Therefore, without hindrance or restriction, I travel to all parts of the country. (I'd love this to be the world... someday!) That is, with the status of citizen, I don't need to have special clearance to move about from area to area. Security would manage whether or not I can or cannot access sensitive areas. Of course, this metaphor would begin to break down if we became a more diverse community... such as implementing this strange food.evolt.org everyone keeps mentioning. ;) | >I'm sure I'm not suggesting anything really new... It sounds | like parts of | >this discussion have happened in the past.. :) Please | forgive me if I'm | >repeating an existing argument... :) I'm slowly trying to | make my way | >through the archives... :) +1 | Yeah. Look for "login.evolt.org". I believe it's even in the subject | line. It was quite a while back. Dan was working on it (so he'd be the | author of the messages). Hope that helps some. Thanks. With the concept of "shared reality" being something that is continually created and renewed through dialog and conversation, having an "elder" population with large mental databases is a valuable asset! Well, technology can help, too. From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Mon Oct 15 22:40:46 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Mon Oct 15 22:40:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD222@arnold.bedrock.com> | Yeah. Look for "login.evolt.org". http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-May/001440.html From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 15 22:49:11 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 15 22:49:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD221@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:... >| >As the user posts messages, their article counts and >| references are all >| >correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. >| >| I guess I could go with that. But, I'd like to somehow have the >| propogation outside of the evolt CMS code. Especially in the >| situation of >| a changed password or email address or something like that. > >Couldn't the CMS alert the DBMS, through a stored procedure? Or even the DB >alert itself through a trigger, that the user is not found and then make the >change? I don't believe either of these methods work trans-database. We could have a flag field in eueueueueueueueue database and some process running outside of the CMS and everything that simply takes the record, inserts it into a list of datasources, and flags the field. Not sure if we wanna go this far, but it would keep it out of the CMS. >| >Global User Information >| >------------------------- >| >If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already >| suggested, then >| >any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User >| specific information >| >will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of >| all Child >| >Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for >| the user's content >| >information, and pull all of that into one report or list. >| >| Ok, here's my thinking. When you sign up for www.evolt.org, >| you should be >| "signed up" for all *.evolt.org sites. So, I don't think the >| list of sites >| of which that user is a member is needed. > >I now see what Matt is concerned about -- I believe. Another real world >example: I am a citizen of the US. Therefore, without hindrance or >restriction, I travel to all parts of the country. (I'd love this to be the >world... someday!) What, the US be the world? I think they're working on that. Oh, this isn't thechat... >That is, with the status of citizen, I don't need to have >special clearance to move about from area to area. Security would manage >whether or not I can or cannot access sensitive areas. Of course, this >metaphor would begin to break down if we became a more diverse community... >such as implementing this strange food.evolt.org everyone keeps mentioning. >;) well, but what i'm saying is that Joe User should be able to sign up in a single location and then access member-only features in all *.evolt.org sites. Why should Joe sign up for weo, then sign up with the exact same info for feo? Or why even go the extra step to say Joe wantes to be a member of both sites. Let's just let him. Taking your example kind of, it's kind of like asking someone to register fro a drivers license in every single state that person wants to drive in, rather than allowing a single drivers license to be valid for all states. The info for the drivers licenses will be (relatively) the same, so just use that. >| Yeah. Look for "login.evolt.org". I believe it's even in the subject >| line. It was quite a while back. Dan was working on it (so he'd be the >| author of the messages). Hope that helps some. > >Thanks. With the concept of "shared reality" being something that is >continually created and renewed through dialog and conversation, having an >"elder" population with large mental databases is a valuable asset! Well, >technology can help, too. google.com "login.evolt.org" site:lists.evolt.org http://www.google.com/search?q=%22login.evolt.org%22+site:lists.evolt.org&hl=en&filter=0 is that the technology you are talking about? bud dum bum. i'll be here all week (except thursday), folks. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Mon Oct 15 23:07:01 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Mon Oct 15 23:07:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD223@arnold.bedrock.com> | well, but what i'm saying is that Joe User should be able to | sign up in a | single location and then access member-only features in all | *.evolt.org | sites. Why should Joe sign up for weo, then sign up with the | exact same | info for feo? Or why even go the extra step to say Joe wantes to be a | member of both sites. Let's just let him. | | Taking your example kind of, it's kind of like asking someone | to register | fro a drivers license in every single state that person wants | to drive in, | rather than allowing a single drivers license to be valid for all | states. The info for the drivers licenses will be | (relatively) the same, | so just use that. Really? I thought I could just drive from one state to another with my Oregon D/L. My point previously was that it would be nice to jump in the car and go _anywhere_ in the world with that authentication token. These are just real world examples of how people, in my experience, see themselves in communities. However, you raise an interesting point, which was the thrust of my examination. That is, if the community is diverse enough, would it make sense to share my information, since it would be non-sensical? If I tried, now, for instance, to test out of a course on cooking because of my credentials testifying to my knowledge of tables, cookies, forks, batches, java, beans, etc., although they are the same terms yet apply to another universe of discourse, it would not be valid. This point is more to draw the goal of UEUE in a context so that we might say, "Well, if evolt was going to become bigger than Yahoo, yeah, that would apply, but not here, dude!" Then we can be clear that signing up in one place makes sense to apply everywhere and we could base a solution on sound principles and analysis. I can then be convinced that, yes, "one sign up, access everywhere" is A Good Thing. New people always try patience as they get up to speed, don't they? From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 00:15:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 00:15:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: Message-ID: <3BCBC35C.4040609@starkmedia.com> Warden, Matt wrote: > I guess I'm not seeing how this can be done without the possibility of > conflicting userids. > > Well, i guess all new userids would now be generated by ueue, so that's > not an issue, right? exactly.. the prob is we have to do some shit to get stuff *backwards* compatible. in the long run though, its easier to do it *now* than a year from now when we reallllllly need to do this > Well, no, but I don't think that matters. +1 >>As the user posts messages, their article counts and references are all >>correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. >> > > I guess I could go with that. But, I'd like to somehow have the > propogation outside of the evolt CMS code. Especially in the situation of > a changed password or email address or something like that. ya, i think anything having to do with a user's info has to come back to ueue.evolt.org in terms for
posting and shit.. this obviously will take a bit of work and jerking around, but again, its better to do it now rather than a year or even 3 months and 500 new users from now. >>course begs the next question: How can I know how many articles that I've >>written/commented upon/etc across all of the *.evolt.org sites. >> > > I'm not sure I see the need for reporting that... unless we were going to > somehow have a cube-like system for overall community participation. IOW, > not that big of a deal if it's troublesome. well, if you write something from food.evolt.org, the backend is in place to get your userid, username, etc to insert into the solitary food.evolt.org DB. same with articles - you could insert articles on food.evolt.org(our best example cus they're so close) without needing to query the USERS table of the evolt DB. you just grok the userid, who, etc from the cookie and insert that information into your article... or ?? >>Global User Information >>------------------------- >>If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already suggested, then >>any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User specific information >>will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of all Child >>Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for the user's content >>information, and pull all of that into one report or list. >> > > Ok, here's my thinking. When you sign up for www.evolt.org, you should be > "signed up" for all *.evolt.org sites. So, I don't think the list of sites > of which that user is a member is needed. +1 - specific and solitary *.evolt.org information is up to the person running *.evolt.org - a food.evolt.org article is distinct and seperate from a www.evolt.org article. we're not shooting for a complete replication of DB's here - we're going for a single sign-on for every *.evolt.org site now and in the future.. its going to take a good amount of rework for us all, but again, in the long run its worth it.. >>Without a 100% central repository of content information, one must >>replicate. Dynamic queries over the network will be to expensive. >> > > All the oracle databses reside on the same server. our *base* oracle DB - user information/authentication - is only accesable from ueue.evolt.org >>Besides, >>the admins of food.evolt.org may not have any interest in showing the other >>things their users have done. They may just want to focus on food-related >>stuff. >> > > +1 +1 - again, this is a single sign-on thing, not a 'lets share every piece of data with every other *.evolt.org site out there thing >>I'm sure I'm not suggesting anything really new... It sounds like parts of >>this discussion have happened in the past.. :) Please forgive me if I'm >>repeating an existing argument... :) I'm slowly trying to make my way >>through the archives... :) >> > > Yeah. Look for "login.evolt.org". I believe it's even in the subject > line. It was quite a while back. Dan was working on it (so he'd be the > author of the messages). Hope that helps some. ya, mark lemme know when you wanna look at what i've got done already. basically, the 'ticketing' is done already on login.evolt.org(a prototype i was doing on my own that relied on sessions and not cookies, which was the wrong way to go.) in CF. lets get together on IRC tomorrow and i'll tweak that CF to use MD5(which i looked into today, and *fuck* was that the way to go! nice call :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 00:19:41 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 00:19:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD221@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: <3BCBC451.9070309@starkmedia.com> Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com wrote: > | >As the user posts messages, their article counts and > | references are all > | >correctly updated on the food.evolt.org site. > | > | I guess I could go with that. But, I'd like to somehow have the > | propogation outside of the evolt CMS code. Especially in the > | situation of > | a changed password or email address or something like that. > > Couldn't the CMS alert the DBMS, through a stored procedure? Or even the DB > alert itself through a trigger, that the user is not found and then make the > change? This pushes the logic into the bedrock backend, and seems to be to > be a little more solid. Matt, is that what you are concerned about? well thats assuming the base evolt CMS is going to be sitting on each *.evolt.org site. in fact, its probably going to be a different story. a good example would be dir.evolt.org. it would be cool to let evolt members(those that have a record in the main evolt DB) rate and comment upon entries within that site(written in PHP and using MySQL for its actual *content* DB) while 'leveraging'(ugh.) members of the evolt community that already have a login/username/etc on the main evolt site. dir.evolt.org shouldn't need to query the main evolt DB to get a users information(nor do we want it to). it should be able to take info out of the cookie that was set by ueue.evolt.org and get a username/userid/priv level to store within its solitary MySQL DB. hopefully that makes sense :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 00:23:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 00:23:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD223@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: <3BCBC533.60400@starkmedia.com> i think that at the end of the day, this is what we're all shooting for :) .djc. Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com wrote: > and we could base a solution on sound principles and analysis. I can then be > convinced that, yes, "one sign up, access everywhere" is A Good Thing. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 06:05:29 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 06:05:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD223@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:... >| well, but what i'm saying is that Joe User should be able to >| sign up in a >| single location and then access member-only features in all >| *.evolt.org >| sites. Why should Joe sign up for weo, then sign up with the >| exact same >| info for feo? Or why even go the extra step to say Joe wantes to be a >| member of both sites. Let's just let him. >| >| Taking your example kind of, it's kind of like asking someone >| to register >| fro a drivers license in every single state that person wants >| to drive in, >| rather than allowing a single drivers license to be valid for all >| states. The info for the drivers licenses will be >| (relatively) the same, >| so just use that. > >Really? I thought I could just drive from one state to another with my >Oregon D/L. My point previously was that it would be nice to jump in the car >and go _anywhere_ in the world with that authentication token. These are >just real world examples of how people, in my experience, see themselves in >communities. that was, actually, exactly my point: ...rather than allowing a single drivers license to be valid for all states. rarely coherent, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From joshua at alphashop.com Tue Oct 16 07:38:10 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Oct 16 07:38:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <3BCBC35C.4040609@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <02a801c15640$9a66f960$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Hey guys, Sorry about missing CodeFest... I really wanted to participate in some form or fashion. But, duty called. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" Subject: Re: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal : Warden, Matt wrote: : : > I guess I'm not seeing how this can be done without the possibility of : > conflicting userids. : > : > Well, i guess all new userids would now be generated by ueue, so that's : > not an issue, right? : : exactly.. the prob is we have to do some shit to get stuff *backwards* : compatible. in the long run though, its easier to do it *now* than a : year from now when we reallllllly need to do this Not to be a big pain in the butt, but backwards compatibility may not always be attainable if progress is to occur (ask Microsoft about there problems with this). In order to make this thing work, it may turn out that the current system may need to be replaced rather than augmented. A couple of factors are turn-offs for system replacement: - must decide how much gets totally revised (just the user_id/login stuff, conjoining of article db's, etc) - can be time consuming to replace every instance of the old system with the new - how can we create a new architecture without destroying the old in the process - how long does it take to shut down the old and do the swap when we're ready I know this is not a popular view amongst some people here, but I just want to know other people's thoughts. Does anyone think a redo *might* be down the road? What sort of hang-ups might be present if we retrofit the system with changes if we stay with the current distributed db model? What other distributed models may be appropriate? A model where the user authentication information is in its own db, forcing authentication into a black box (since you cannot do cross-db joins) may be one suggestion. From there we may even tie the site specific user information into this black box using some user-site-attribute-value relationship. The information is returned from some black-box object that handles authentication AND user management. What problems does this create? 1) a black box would have to be written for each engine -- CF, PHP, etc -- that is powering a *.evolt.org site so that the user information can successfully be stuffed into session variables. This would suck if we didn't get it right the first time since any changes would have to be propagated to each code base. 2) The CMS systems cannot JOIN with the user table. This is where we would have to introduce some fancy stored procedures to cross the db threshold, return temp tables, etc. This could get messy. Just brainstorming... talk to you guys later. -joshua From javier at msm.cl Tue Oct 16 07:57:20 2001 From: javier at msm.cl (mantruc) Date: Tue Oct 16 07:57:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] codefest wrapup References: <3BCB1692.1030709@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BCC2E98.67D3B9D5@msm.cl> Big thanks to all who participated on the codefest!!! waiting for the pics... -- Javier Velasco M. - nurun Chile Information Architect - http://www.nurun.cl ----------------------- -------------------------- -- Personal: http://mantruc.com -- -- Member of http://evolt.org -- From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 11:19:33 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 11:19:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <3BCBC35C.4040609@starkmedia.com> <02a801c15640$9a66f960$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <3BCC5B55.7040702@starkmedia.com> Joshua Olson wrote: > Sorry about missing CodeFest... I really wanted to participate in some form > or fashion. But, duty called. no prob, we understand.. next time hopefully! > A couple of factors are turn-offs for system replacement: [snip] all valid points.. > I know this is not a popular view amongst some people here, but I just want > to know other people's thoughts. Does anyone think a redo *might* be down > the road? um. :) its somewhere down the road, where exactly I have no clue.. > What sort of hang-ups might be present if we retrofit the system with > changes if we stay with the current distributed db model? the distributed DB model really stunts the ability of evolt to scale.. if someone wants to do a kickass project for evolt(like Simon did with d.e.o) without making it a pain in the ass on users, they have to get our user records somehow. also, replication of the entire DB is a serious bitch. :) > What problems does this create? > 1) a black box would have to be written for each engine -- CF, PHP, etc -- > that is powering a *.evolt.org site so that the user information can > successfully be stuffed into session variables. This would suck if we didn't > get it right the first time since any changes would have to be propagated to > each code base. again, what mark and i are talking about doesn't use sessions as the backbone of the system, and *thats* why we can get away with multiple application languages using it. the login.evolt.org thing I tried a while back would easily work if we had every *.e.o site running Cold Fusion since session mangament within an app language is easy. but we shouldn't stunt the growth of cool projects or peoples willingness to contribute just because they don't know CF.... thanks for asking all these questions josh.. i'm sure others are thinking them too :) .djc. From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 11:19:56 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 11:19:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD22C@arnold.bedrock.com> | it should be able to take | info out of | the cookie that was set by ueue.evolt.org and get a | username/userid/priv | level to store within its solitary MySQL DB. Oh. I didn't see the, ah, diversity of implementation. Nice... Makes it interesting. 8) Of course, this begs the question, "What if the user has disabled/can't support cookies?" To my mind, maybe because I have more experience in the backend iron, to implement all this logic without involving the client is more robust, if not as flexible/distributed. | hopefully that makes sense :) The same fairy godmother must have visited me, since it does! The problem with getting new people (me) onto the same page is -- we (you) may never leave that page. I am so appreciative that all are forbearing as I expose my shortcomings in experience. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 11:41:34 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 11:41:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD22C@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: <3BCC607B.2070508@starkmedia.com> Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com wrote: > Of course, this begs the question, "What if the user has disabled/can't > support cookies?" To my mind, maybe because I have more experience in the > backend iron, to implement all this logic without involving the client is > more robust, if not as flexible/distributed. i'm still reading, so i don't know yet :) mark may know, but this is a valid question.. > | hopefully that makes sense :) > > The same fairy godmother must have visited me, since it does! > > The problem with getting new people (me) onto the same page is -- we (you) > may never leave that page. I am so appreciative that all are forbearing as I > expose my shortcomings in experience. we're all learning on this, trust me :) thanks, and keep asking those questions! .djc. From joshua at alphashop.com Tue Oct 16 11:44:34 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Oct 16 11:44:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: <3BCBC35C.4040609@starkmedia.com> <02a801c15640$9a66f960$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> <3BCC5B55.7040702@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <032a01c15663$07178ee0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" Subject: Re: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal : the distributed DB model really stunts the ability of evolt to scale.. : if someone wants to do a kickass project for evolt(like Simon did with : d.e.o) without making it a pain in the ass on users, they have to get : our user records somehow. also, replication of the entire DB is a : serious bitch. :) I'm not quite sure I made my idea completely clear. Let's say there was a goal to have one central repository for authentication and user attributes AND still allow the other sites to be developed in whatever language and platform they desire (and on whatever server they desire). This can be done with some careful communication models. Take this scenario as an example. User visits a site and does not have the universal ticket to play as outlined by Mark. The site queries the respository via HTTP* using the user supplied username and password and the following information is returned directly to the site via XML or whatever: - Site specific user information (name, occupation, hair color) - All information for the ticket as outlined by Mark - a hash string, the username, etc. The site them has the obligation to set the cookies for the ticket based on the server response and can then set whatever internal session variables it needs as well. If the site wishes to update information about a user, it submits the users ticket with any changes to the db using a standard form submit to the repository and it updates the records. When the user goes to a different site on the network, the ticket is checked for validity like always. If the site stores stuff in sessions it requeries the repository with the ticket and grabs site specific user attributes. Parses the XML response and goes on its merry way. I'm fairly certain this system could work. Even though it seems fairly complex, it is greatly simplified by the fact that the repository is a genuin black box. -joshua * When I say queries the repository via HTTP I mean it makes its own call in the processing of a page. In CF, this would be done via the tag. From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 13:16:14 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 13:16:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] (no subject) Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD22F@arnold.bedrock.com> Mercy! http://food.evolt.org/ It's a real site! Presumably, it was, like Joe User, our collective average of a site. How wrong... it looks good! From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 13:18:28 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 13:18:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] food.evolt.org (was: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD22F@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about [thesite]... >Mercy! > >http://food.evolt.org/ > >It's a real site! > >Presumably, it was, like Joe User, our collective average of a site. > >How wrong... it looks good! is that the cat? what's it doing out of the bag? yeah, it's real. and unfinished. that's one of the benefits of being on thesite (or any beta-type or development list) -- you get to hear about stuff before it goes live/public. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From sgd at ti3.com Tue Oct 16 13:21:15 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Tue Oct 16 13:21:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] food.evolt.org (was: (no subject)) Message-ID: > > yeah, it's real. and unfinished. > > that's one of the benefits of being on thesite (or any beta-type or > development list) -- you get to hear about stuff before it goes > live/public. In other words, Rory, don't go spamming culinary lists/sites with the URL, quite yet =) sgd From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 13:22:24 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 13:22:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] food.evolt.org (was: (no subject)) Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD230@arnold.bedrock.com> | yeah, it's real. and unfinished. | | that's one of the benefits of being on thesite (or any beta-type or | development list) -- you get to hear about stuff before it goes | live/public. This is loud and clear. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 16 15:30:05 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 16 15:30:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <3BCC95A8.3090307@starkmedia.com> if you're logged in on t.e.o, http://test.evolt.org/member/index.html?action=signup also i added an 'edit membership' link on the sidebar(name is temporary) that will get you there too i run through the creation of a 'member' account first off to store a persons default style in. then i run them to a page where they can edit that style. theres a *ton* of stuff that is going to be changed, so its ok if you notice a lot of wacky things.. this is very very first version obviously. :) right now its not editable as we want it someday. it just uses one of the default CSS files i pulled off some peoples sites rather quickly and are static files. the underlying DB structure *is* there though. i'm probably just not going to be the one that does that part, since i know so little about how to use DHTML/whatever to create editable, on the fly, stylesheets. this should be good enough till that point though.. thoughts? thanks! .djc. From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 16:05:08 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 16:05:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0147344052110a1PCOW058M@blueyonder.co.uk> Warden, Matt wrote on 15/10/01 4:53 pm >1. How to login at a central place and be recognized at all *.evolt.org >sites, not just the ones which can read cf session variables Couple of questions: 1) Does this mean that if you visit my meo site I can read your ueue cookie info? 2) If so, does it matter? I can see that I couldn't forge a ueue ticked from scratch, but if I can copy yours, does that give me access to your stuff? 3) What kind of period would we have for the expiry, and if it's a long one, would the membership object? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 16:44:20 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 16:44:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <0147344052110a1PCOW058M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 16, Martin had something to say about Re: [thesite] My Intro and a... >Warden, Matt wrote on 15/10/01 4:53 pm > >>1. How to login at a central place and be recognized at all *.evolt.org >>sites, not just the ones which can read cf session variables > >Couple of questions: >1) Does this mean that if you visit my meo site I can read your >ueue cookie info? that's always been the case, martin. it is to this day. but, this will be improved with ueue because it will be encrypted and members sites won't have the decryption key. >2) If so, does it matter? I can see that I couldn't forge a ueue >ticked from scratch, but if I can copy yours, does that give me >access to your stuff? I dunno what mark had in mind, but he talked about ueue server sending the child keys to the servers, so i assumed that implied a rotation of keys during some amount of time. Again, this isn't a change. In theory, you can do this now. It will be at least an improvement with ueue. IOW, what I'm saying is we should go on with this and maybe spawn a few others to tackle the larger problem, if we decide it's that big of a deal to do so. >3) What kind of period would we have for the expiry, and if it's >a long one, would the membership object? object=verb, here right? i think we have a better chance of them objecting if the period (if i understand you right, you're talking about the cookie and/or key) was short. that would pretty much ruin the "remember me" feature. good questions. thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 16:56:08 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 16:56:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0b56b49562110a1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Warden, Matt wrote on 16/10/01 10:45 pm >>1) Does this mean that if you visit my meo site I can read your >>ueue cookie info? > >that's always been the case, martin. it is to this day. Didn't realise that the weo cookie was set for *eo - I'd assumed it was weo specific. >but, this will be improved with ueue because it will be encrypted and >members sites won't have the decryption key. Agreed that the encryption is A Good Thing. >>3) What kind of period would we have for the expiry, and if it's >>a long one, would the membership object? > >object=verb, here right? yup Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 17:18:28 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 16 17:18:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <0b56b49562110a1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > > that's always been the case, martin. it is to this > > day. > > Didn't realise that the weo cookie was set for *eo - > I'd assumed it was weo specific. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, it's set for *.evolt.org for just such a reason. that's why you're auto-logged in to a.e.o and t.e.o when you visit if you've logged in with the "remember me" feature checked. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 17:22:12 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 16 17:22:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > i think we have a better chance of them objecting if > the period (if i understand you right, you're talking > about the cookie and/or key) was short. that would > pretty much ruin the "remember me" feature. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the cookie expiration can be fairly far off. however, the expiration for the key should be somewhat short (like 1-2 weeks). that doesn't mean it needs to fail though. we can store the last key used. if the user's cookie doesn't respond to the current key, but it responds to the last key issued *and* it's last modified date is within the period of activity for the last key then we could reissue the cookie with the newly encrypted data using the current key. make sense? .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 17:51:17 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 17:51:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0732f57512210a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> .jeff wrote on 16/10/01 11:19 pm >> > that's always been the case, martin. it is to this >> > day. >> >> Didn't realise that the weo cookie was set for *eo - >> I'd assumed it was weo specific. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >no, it's set for *.evolt.org for just such a reason. that's why you're >auto-logged in to a.e.o and t.e.o when you visit if you've logged in with >the "remember me" feature checked. Sure - I see the upside. But I'm still a bit concerned about the security issue. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 17:53:25 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 17:53:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0741305542210a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> .jeff wrote on 16/10/01 11:23 pm >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Warden, Matt >> >> i think we have a better chance of them objecting if >> the period (if i understand you right, you're talking >> about the cookie and/or key) was short. that would >> pretty much ruin the "remember me" feature. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >the cookie expiration can be fairly far off. however, the expiration for >the key should be somewhat short (like 1-2 weeks). that doesn't mean it >needs to fail though. we can store the last key used. if the user's cookie >doesn't respond to the current key, but it responds to the last key issued >*and* it's last modified date is within the period of activity for the last >key then we could reissue the cookie with the newly encrypted data using the >current key. OK, what happens if I log in from 2 different machines? atm, it's fine because each machine has its own cookie and neither do much persistent authentication to the user record beyond pw. But if we're checking a cookie against user activity records, it will scupper this. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Oct 16 18:00:15 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:00:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011017000233.012db076.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:23:37 -0700, ".jeff" wrote: > the cookie expiration can be fairly far off. however, the expiration > for the key should be somewhat short (like 1-2 weeks). that doesn't > mean it needs to fail though. we can store the last key used. if > the user's cookie doesn't respond to the current key, but it responds > to the last key issued *and* it's last modified date is within the > period of activity for the last key then we could reissue the cookie > with the newly encrypted data using the current key. Damn!... thats elegant. +1 G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 18:00:22 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:00:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0c1a502012310a1PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Warden, Matt wrote on 16/10/01 4:12 am >>If we don't do the one global table, like Matt has already suggested, then >>any application that wants a 30000 foot view of User specific information >>will have to query the ueue.evolt.org server for the list of all Child >>Servers the user is a member, query each Child Server for the user's content >>information, and pull all of that into one report or list. > >Ok, here's my thinking. When you sign up for www.evolt.org, you should be >"signed up" for all *.evolt.org sites. Yes. And the signup confirmation page is a good place to plug the entire range ("If you liked $CURRENTeo, then you might also like @NON-CURRENTeo") >So, I don't think the list of sites >of which that user is a member is needed. I can see the use for list of sites which that user is *active* on. Cheers Martin (the 'writing reporting requirements documents for integrated sets of sites, starting with "There shall be a single user view"' one) _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 18:03:49 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:03:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD235@arnold.bedrock.com> | But I'm still a bit concerned about the security issue. I'm curious too. I've scrubbed the past few days of posts, but can't seem to glean how the cookies will be encrypted. From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 18:09:43 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:09:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0e62c23102310a1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com wrote on 17/10/01 12:09 am >| But I'm still a bit concerned about the security issue. > >I'm curious too. I've scrubbed the past few days of posts, but can't seem to >glean how the cookies will be encrypted. MD5 (ie sensibly) Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 18:12:14 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:12:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD236@arnold.bedrock.com> Martin replied: | MD5 (ie sensibly) So, the data _in_ the cookie is encrypted, is this what is meant? From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 18:14:14 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:14:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <0741305542210a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > OK, what happens if I log in from 2 different machines? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< then it simply re-issues a cookie with identical data to the one already on the other machine. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > atm, it's fine because each machine has its own cookie ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and they're unique to you as the user, but not unique to each machine. the contents of each cookie is identical because they're for the same user. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > and neither do much persistent authentication to the > user record beyond pw. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< actually, they don't do authentication beyond checking the value of the cookie against the "cookie" column in the user table. if they match you're logged in as the user who's record has that uuid that was found in your cookie. it's fairly safe as it'd be fairly hard to correctly guess a 36 character string made of letters, numbers, and hyphens. however, the problem of m.e.o account users snatching these cookies is very real and always has been. however, the only way to stop this is to set the cookie at the domain level: evolt.org browsers.evolt.org food.evolt.org ... test.evolt.org www.evolt.org with the one exception that we don't set it for members.evolt.org. that effectively neuters anything we want to do with meo proper, but doesn't expose the cookies to being read by meo account holders. implementing it in this fashion would be much more tedious as each child server would have to report to ueue.evolt.org and a cookie for *each* child server site would have to be issued (not an easy task). i guess the important part is to determine the risk involved and decide if it's worth the "expense". ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > But if we're checking a cookie against user activity > records, it will scupper this. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't see how it would. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 18:31:09 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:31:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD237@arnold.bedrock.com> .jeff notes: | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > From: Martin | > | > OK, what happens if I log in from 2 different machines? | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | then it simply re-issues a cookie with identical data to the | one already on | the other machine. Martin's question causes me to consider what happens if someone else uses the other machine. Since a cookie is being re-issued, wouldn't that be an open door? Then I wonder does this matter to anyone in this context? I mean, it isn't a banking application, right? I think the concern is mainly about m.e.o. ... From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 19:10:43 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:10:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD237@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:... >Martin's question causes me to consider what happens if someone else uses >the other machine. Since a cookie is being re-issued, wouldn't that be an >open door? Yeah, that's why it's an "option". Our audience is generally smart enough to know when to use this feature and when to not. And if they don't, well it's not THAT big of a deal. >Then I wonder does this matter to anyone in this context? I mean, it isn't a >banking application, right? Exactly. >I think the concern is mainly about m.e.o. ... Which I will say again, is not a very big deal. There are other problems with the meo setup that are worse than this. We know them, but there isn't much we can do about them... You'll forgive me if I don't list down security holes on a public list whose archives are spidered... thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 19:12:22 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:12:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD237@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: rory, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com > > Martin's question causes me to consider what happens if > someone else uses the other machine. Since a cookie is > being re-issued, wouldn't that be an open door? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, actually it's not an open door unless you as a user choose to open it. the only way there'd be a cookie on a machine is if you've selected the convenience of the "remember me" feature. otherwise there aren't any cookies issued to compromise the login. now, that's how it works currently. if we go to an all cookie login system, that sort of door could be opened up. the solution would be to have the cookie be only a session cookie unless the user chooses the convenience of the "remember me" feature in which case it's issued with a long-in-the-future expiration date. again, we're giving the user the opportunity to open the door themselves, but not doing it without their intervention. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Then I wonder does this matter to anyone in this > context? I mean, it isn't a banking application, > right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, that's a very valid observation. some admin and god privilege functionality is available with the right cookie value though. it could be worthwhile to make sure to protect that as much as possible. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I think the concern is mainly about m.e.o. ... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< precisely. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 19:44:57 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:44:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <3BCC95A8.3090307@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > also i added an 'edit membership' link on the sidebar(name is temporary) > that will get you there too i added my full name (only option available) and updated. when i click edit membership, it wants me to do it again. but the edit account page has stored the name successfully, so that's cool. i didn't see anything about user selectable stylesheets though. where is that? oh, i only get that if i actually check a radio button for privacy... maybe we need a default option for that? i tried selecting granite.css but after saving that, nothing happens. the site still uses isaac.css. so i went through it again (went via that re-enter full name page). tried easter.css this time. no luck. maybe i'm not understanding it properly? shouldn't the style preference appear on my edit account page? also, is the distinction between register evolt user and evolt member clear? i'm guessing one is someone with a site login, and the other is, err, i dunno - someone with a site login and more info entered? i From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Tue Oct 16 19:59:11 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:59:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD238@arnold.bedrock.com> issac questioned: | also, is the distinction between register evolt user and | evolt member clear? | i'm guessing one is someone with a site login, and the other | is, err, i | dunno - someone with a site login and more info entered? I thought perhaps that a registered user was someone who, well, registered, and a member is a registered user with a m.e.o account... From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Oct 16 20:08:14 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:08:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <014901c156a8$4e64ae00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Isaac, Strange .. it definitely needs some work usability wise... but its working fine here (IE5.5). (Btw, that first page, I don't think anything is working yet, that's for member pages - the joys of a testing server when more than one thing is getting worked on... hehehe). One needs to click on the Update link underneath the Priv level stuff, which is for something else. Then select a stylesheet, hit save, and then it redirects back to FAQ page (not sure why). I'm logged in btw, if that matters. I was talking to Dan briefly in IRC earlier, and suggested that we have small thumbnails of the different colour schemes available to choose from. What do you think of that? Also, it would probably be a good idea to double-check that those CSS files match the current CSS file we are using. I'm not sure if any new attributes have been created since the CSS sample files were created. And, also, I noticed on a couple pages that some of the elements haven't been defined, or should be modified. For example, on Easter we can't see the visited link at the top. IOW, we could some CSS-Guru type assistance from others that have time to double check the files, make sure they validate, ensure all elements are there from the original. Any takers. ;) Michele | i tried selecting granite.css but after saving that, nothing happens. the | site still uses isaac.css. | | so i went through it again (went via that re-enter full name page). tried | easter.css this time. no luck. | | | maybe i'm not understanding it properly? | | shouldn't the style preference appear on my edit account page? From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Oct 16 20:22:02 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:22:02 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD238@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: <014c01c156aa$3c8283e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hey Rory .. Yes, the Priv levels are confusing... ;) I think I finally understand them now myself. After Rudy beat over the head with a baseball bat last week .. hehehe j/k Anyway, that part of the form isn't in use at the moment. That page (Edit Membership) is just the start for creating the membership pages that are being worked on. Membership pages are currently being design by a couple of the CodeFest participants, so, we'll all see some samples shortly. In short, it'll be a combination of the existing user's pages (http://test.evolt.org/user/Mishka/4292/index.html) and a template page that Erik Mattheis did for another project (http://neo.evolt.org) (Yes, another acronym). The priv levels are required for attribute information that members can add to their own Member Pages. Here's a recent DB diagram that should explain it a bit more: http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif Now as far as the difference between a member (Priv 2) and a user (Priv 1), my understanding that those with Member pages (not user pages, the new ones we are working on) will be considered "Members", whereas Users will just have a userid. The way I look at it is this, a member is someone that wants to share additional information with other members, and be a bit more a part of the Evolt community. Hope this helps ... more information than you wanted no doubt. Btw, glad to see you on this list, I really enjoy your postings on thelist. If you have any other questions or want to jump in and help out on a project, just holler. Have you see the CodeFest information? http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/ Under Draft Task List is the stuff we were working on at CodeFest. You'll see what projects/tasks were completed. Sometime soon, I'll take the left over projects and add them to a.e.o. (admin.evolt.org - you may have to talk to djc about getting a userid for that application). Take care, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: | issac questioned: | | | also, is the distinction between register evolt user and | | evolt member clear? | | i'm guessing one is someone with a site login, and the other | | is, err, i | | dunno - someone with a site login and more info entered? | | I thought perhaps that a registered user was someone who, well, registered, | and a member is a registered user with a m.e.o account... From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 20:25:40 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:25:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > yes, that's a very valid observation. some admin and god privilege > functionality is available with the right cookie value though. > it could be worthwhile to make sure to protect that as much as possible. what about adding optional IP checking to the process? so if dan (for example) knows he has a static IP (or range of IPs), he can further restrict the possibility of having his login taken via some scripting on MEO. worth considering or not at all? i From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 20:29:36 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:29:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <014901c156a8$4e64ae00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > One needs to click on the Update link underneath the Priv level > stuff, which > is for something else. Then select a stylesheet, hit save, and then it > redirects back to FAQ page (not sure why). I'm logged in btw, if that > matters. Yeh, that's what happens to me, but the styling of the FAQ change or any others doesn't change at all. > I was talking to Dan briefly in IRC earlier, and suggested that we have > small thumbnails of the different colour schemes available to choose from. > What do you think of that? I'd avoid thumbnails as they'd have to change with every alteration of the CSS files themselves. We should dump the easter.css file name, and instead include a description and the author. e.g.: "Easter - festive green and red; not for those with poor eyesight! (Dan)" (I don't know if easter.css is green or red. As I said -- I couldn't get it to work.) > should be modified. For example, on Easter we can't see the > visited link at the top. Yeh, we need an approval process that ensures that the files are up with the latest (isaac).css, and that they style critical elements, etc. isaac From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 20:29:40 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:29:40 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <014c01c156aa$3c8283e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > have a userid. The way I look at it is this, a member is someone > that wants to share additional information with other members, and be a bit > more a part of the Evolt community. OK, that finally makes sense to me. But is there a one-to-many r'ship between user and member? I think Rudy said something about a user having multiple memberships, or the other way around. I don't really understand the need for that. Is the thinking that people have multiple logins to WEO? isaac From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 20:35:20 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:35:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD238@arnold.bedrock.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:... >issac questioned: > >| also, is the distinction between register evolt user and >| evolt member clear? >| i'm guessing one is someone with a site login, and the other >| is, err, i >| dunno - someone with a site login and more info entered? > >I thought perhaps that a registered user was someone who, well, registered, >and a member is a registered user with a m.e.o account... like dan said, the link text will change. it's probably jsut all he could think of at the time. IOW, don't worry about it. it's the same as an evolt user. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 20:37:37 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 20:37:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <014901c156a8$4e64ae00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 16, Michele Foster had something to say about Re: [thesite] user... >I was talking to Dan briefly in IRC earlier, and suggested that we have >small thumbnails of the different colour schemes available to choose from. >What do you think of that? or add a preview button which just temporaily changes the styles and doesn't do any session or database work. and then the "save styles" button would be the one that set all that permenantly. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 21:01:18 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:01:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IOW, don't worry about it. it's the same as an evolt user. i thought that we were talking about the different privacy levels: Anonymous Registered Users Registered Members evolt admins evolt gods if it's the same, why are there two of them? perhaps the distinction would be made to encourage people to put forward more information about themselves? i From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Oct 16 21:07:23 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:07:23 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <015d01c156b0$90196220$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hmmmm.. good question .. I went to look ;) http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif Looks like to me the MemberId will be stored in the User table. So each user will only have one MemberId. (The arrows don't show the link tho.) Also, from the User Table the User Priv is set. Anyone with a MemberId will have a UserPriv of 2 ... instead of "1" which is what all users (except Admin and God) have now. So, it starts to make sense when you take into consideration that EACH Attribute can be assigned viewing privs to the various types of users/members. For example, I might not want my Phone Number to be displayed to anyone but Admin or higher privs. So, that particular attribute I'd indicate the Priv level, i.e. permission level, to view that info. As far as multiple userid's goes, yes, someone with more than one UserID could also create more than one Member Page (ID). I'm not sure anyone would want that tho. As part of the ueue, we'll probably need to go through UserID's and look for duplicates, and deal with them. More of a "cleaning up the data" exercise. HTH, Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > have a userid. The way I look at it is this, a member is someone | > that wants to share additional information with other members, and be a | bit | > more a part of the Evolt community. | | OK, that finally makes sense to me. | | But is there a one-to-many r'ship between user and member? I think Rudy said | something about a user having multiple memberships, or the other way around. | I don't really understand the need for that. Is the thinking that people | have multiple logins to WEO? From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 21:24:04 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:24:04 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <015d01c156b0$90196220$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > Hmmmm.. good question .. I went to look ;) > http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif > > Looks like to me the MemberId will be stored in the User table. So each > user will only have one MemberId. (The arrows don't show the link tho.) Yes, but I don't understand the duplication of data such as firstname, lastname, and priv. If there is one member per user, why wouldn't the tables be joined? It may be intended as a one-to-many r'ship (many user accounts for a single membership record) as I mention at the end of the email. > Also, from the User Table the User Priv is set. Anyone with a > MemberId will > have a UserPriv of 2 ... instead of "1" which is what all users (except > Admin and God) have now. In the user table, the scale is 0 guest, 1 user, 2, admin, 3 god, right? In the member table, why is there another scale? The priv field in the membattr table handles the privacy gear. Is it necessary to be able to choose between making an element (like a phone number) accessible to users with member pages, or without? Aren't they registered members of evolt.org either way when they sign up for the site? > displayed to anyone but Admin or higher privs. So, that particular > attribute I'd indicate the Priv level, i.e. permission level, to view that > info. Yeh, that's never been unclear. I just don't understand the need for split user/member tables. If I join the site (as a user) to participate with ratings, comments, articles, etc, aren't I a member? > As far as multiple userid's goes, yes, someone with more than one UserID > could also create more than one Member Page (ID). Oh no, that's not the issue. I just remembered Rudy talking about multiple userID's having a single memberid or something. The requirement might've been based on people needing home and work logins, but a single membership page, or something like that. Rudy? i From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 21:36:10 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:36:10 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It may be intended as a one-to-many r'ship (many user accounts for a single >membership record) as I mention at the end of the email. yes, that's how it's set up in the db. many user accounts can be related to a single member record. rudy will have to pipe up with the reasoning for that. >> Also, from the User Table the User Priv is set. Anyone with a >> MemberId will >> have a UserPriv of 2 ... instead of "1" which is what all users (except >> Admin and God) have now. > >In the user table, the scale is 0 guest, 1 user, 2, admin, 3 god, right? >In the member table, why is there another scale? The priv field in the >membattr table handles the privacy gear. my guess is that it was intended to be used until we implemented full member pages. or maybe it's a method to privatize an entire member page like sourceforges "the user has made their skills profile private". >Is it necessary to be able to choose between making an element (like a phone >number) accessible to users with member pages, or without? Aren't they >registered members of evolt.org either way when they sign up for the site? we still don't know the distinction between user and member. there has never been a "member" status in the past. it was just a number that could be used if we needed it in the future (rather than moving admin and god up one so we had another number in between). >> displayed to anyone but Admin or higher privs. So, that particular >> attribute I'd indicate the Priv level, i.e. permission level, to view that >> info. > >Yeh, that's never been unclear. I just don't understand the need for split >user/member tables. If I join the site (as a user) to participate with >ratings, comments, articles, etc, aren't I a member? im not sure why, but i can have a username and password that would give me a usual user account and also another user name and password that would give me admin privs. these could both be tied to the same user record. or maybe user at home, user at work. i dunno... >userID's having a single memberid or something. The requirement might've >been based on people needing home and work logins, but a single membership >page, or something like that. Rudy? aha! maybe that was it, then. tha's what i remembered too -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 21:46:05 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:46:05 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >im not sure why, but i can have a username and password that would give me >a usual user account and also another user name and password that would >give me admin privs. these could both be tied to the same user record. or >maybe user at home, user at work. i dunno... um, no. that's not right. they can both be tied to the same *member* record. nap time it is! -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 16 21:54:35 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:54:35 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <01c156b7$28a39e60$0c51149a@rudy> > yes, that's how it's set up in the db. many user accounts can be > related to a single member record. rudy will have to pipe up with > the reasoning for that. a person is a person is a person the member record corresponds to a person a person can have more than one email id (e.g. home and work) hence to be subscribed more than once means more than one userid you'd want them both tied to the same person, i.e. member record quod erat demonstrandum ;o) >>In the user table, the scale is 0 guest, 1 user, 2, admin, 3 god, right? >>In the member table, why is there another scale? The priv field in the >>membattr table handles the privacy gear. haven't had the benefit of seeing what was done during codefest yet, but the scale should be universal, and have no variation anywhere slight correction: the scale is 0 guest, 1 user, 2 member, 3 admin, 4 god >or maybe it's a method to privatize an entire member page like >sourceforges "the user has made their skills profile private". if the "skills profile" you are talking about (my apologies, i have jumped in here without reading the seventy-nine posts since sunday on cookies and tickets) is the member/membattr/attribute structure, then i'm sorry, there's no collection -- each attribute is treated independently of all the others, so that in order to privatize the skills profile, you have to privatize each skill, and if you wanted a message like the sourceforge one, the display routine would need a wee bit more sophistication... > im not sure why, but i can have a username and password that would > give me a usual user account and also another user name and password > that would give me admin privs. these could both be tied to the same > user record. or maybe user at home, user at work. i dunno... try that again, only substitute "tied to the same *member* record" there is, after all, only one mattwarden ;o) rudy From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 16 22:07:44 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:07:44 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <01c156b7$28a39e60$0c51149a@rudy> Message-ID: >>or maybe it's a method to privatize an entire member page like >>sourceforges "the user has made their skills profile private". > >if the "skills profile" you are talking about (my apologies, i have jumped >in here without reading the seventy-nine posts since sunday on cookies and >tickets) is the member/membattr/attribute structure, then i'm sorry, >there's no collection -- each attribute is treated independently of all the >others, so that in order to privatize the skills profile, you have to >privatize each skill, and if you wanted a message like the sourceforge one, >the display routine would need a wee bit more sophistication... then, you got some 'splainin to do... i was trying to guess a reason for the PRIV field in the MEMBER table >> im not sure why, but i can have a username and password that would >> give me a usual user account and also another user name and password >> that would give me admin privs. these could both be tied to the same >> user record. or maybe user at home, user at work. i dunno... > >try that again, only substitute "tied to the same *member* record" done and done. >there is, after all, only one mattwarden you can say that again you can say that again -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 22:28:01 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:28:01 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <01c156b7$28a39e60$0c51149a@rudy> Message-ID: > quod erat demonstrandum And the kiddie version: quite enough done > slight correction: the scale is 0 guest, 1 user, 2 member, 3 admin, 4 > god OK. Still got NFI re the distinction between user and member. Or why we require that distinction. Should we assume it's a placeholder for now? > tickets) is the member/membattr/attribute structure, then i'm sorry, > there's no collection -- each attribute is treated independently > of all the > others, so that in order to privatize the skills profile, you have to > privatize each skill, and if you wanted a message like the > sourceforge one, > the display routine would need a wee bit more sophistication... I'd definitely prefer the ability to group attributes (also assists greatly with presentation - see NEO for an example) and alter privacy per group. What's going to be easier for users? Also, Matt's suggestion of being able to set an even wider privacy level should be considered. (The field in the DB is there for it, unless you have something else in mind for that). > try that again, only substitute "tied to the same *member* record" Are we going to run into problems here? Aren't articles and comments tied to users, when they would be better tied to members? Does that need to be altered? Or do we want authors contributing articles under their work name, and then home alias or something? isaac From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 16 22:36:38 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:36:38 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <01c156bc$daed26e0$0c51149a@rudy> > then, you got some 'splainin to do... > > i was trying to guess a reason for the PRIV field > in the MEMBER table ah, sorry ricky, like i said, i jumped into this thread near the end yes, you're right, of course except that a consistent implementation would require that the member table priv overrides all member attributes, not just skills -- but i assume you were using skills only as as example rudy "nap time is any time" p.s. to michele > http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif > > Looks like to me the MemberId will be stored in the User table. yup > So each user will only have one MemberId. exactly!!! however, don't assume that this means only one user per member!!! the "child" table (which is on the "many" side of a one-to-many relationship) always carries the foreign key or pointer to the "parent" table (which is on the "one" side of a one-to-many relationship) in the diagram, the "many" side of the relationship has the solid dot on the end of the line i can't figure out how to get ERwin not to put that stupid lozenge/diamond on the other side, because it's not consistent how it does it anyhow... the trick to remembering which side of the one-to-many relationship is the child and which is the parent, is to see which one carries the foreign key the FK is *always* in the child if it were in the parent, then there'd have to be an array of them, one per child -- in other words, a repeating group, the biggest no-no in normalizing a database design i guess this isn't the right time to mention that in sql-3 (the next sql standard), arrays are supported... From r937 at interlog.com Tue Oct 16 22:50:19 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:50:19 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <01c156be$ac659d00$0c51149a@rudy> >> quod erat demonstrandum > >And the kiddie version: quite enough done actually "which was the thing to be proved" > OK. Still got NFI re the distinction between user and member. try this: a member is a person whom we know, a user is just a userid or email id and could be anybody > Or why we require that distinction. > Should we assume it's a placeholder for now? it has been and will be a placeholder only until we start using it ;o) > I'd definitely prefer the ability to group attributes (also assists greatly > with presentation - see NEO for an example) and alter privacy per group. can't disagree with that, but dude, how you gonna group them? who gets to say? what if my groups are different than yours? do we want standard predefined groups? > What's going to be easier for users? heck, the more germane question is, what's easier for the coders? remember the trouble i had explaining category types? never mind that, just look at the trouble i had last couple weeks explaining generic member attributes -- you want to add another hierarchical level in there? who's gonna code THAT? you have to think in terms of the form fields and how they get translated into INSERT statements... and remember that they'll be using FKs to link the membattr records to groups to atribute records... > Or do we want authors contributing articles under their work name, > and then home alias or something? now you're on the right track... work ids change over time, too and while i don't understand cookies and tickets and rss feeds (yet), i have a sneaky suspicion that the separation of userid (remember, it's for login/email purposes only) and member (identification of the individual) will be a Good Thing across the various *.e.o sites.... rudy From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 16 23:19:34 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Oct 16 23:19:34 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <01c156be$ac659d00$0c51149a@rudy> Message-ID: > >And the kiddie version: quite enough done > actually "which was the thing to be proved" Quite Enough Done. Q.E.D. Oh well, don't worry. Just a stupid joke that a kid in my maths 2 class in high school used to always go on about. > try this: a member is a person whom we know, a user is just a userid or > email id and could be anybody Not true. The user table has fields for firstname and lastname. Additionally, it's tied to a member, so we'll know exactly who it is. But I do understand the distinction in this case. A member could have a work.userid and a home.userid. I was talking about it in the context of the two priv settings. i.e., guest, user, member, admin, god. Anyway, don't worry. > can't disagree with that, but dude, how you gonna group them? who gets to > say? what if my groups are different than yours? do we want standard > predefined groups? I would prefer standard predefined groups, and attributes. Easier to layout, more consistent to view, and easier to search on (certainly easier to be implemented). If members wanted to add to that, they could propose groups/attributes for others to choose from. If we want members to have a free run with the info they present, why not give them a huge field to throw their own stuff into? Look at NEO - it's nicely split into sections. I don't want member pages to be some ugly list of uncategorised attributes (which is where I think we're potentially headed). > heck, the more germane question is, what's easier for the coders? Don't get me wrong; I understand that the requirements of the community must take into account the available skills and time. Hell, we're coding this without even asking the community. When I asked, I got all of maybe 2 or 3 responses from people suggesting they'd even use this feature! Going by that, has it even been questioned that this feature is worth implementation? But since you asked, what'd be easier for coders would be a single textarea which accepts an article-like range of code allowing members to layout their own profile, and include categorised attributes. It'd also be most flexible for users. isaac From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 17 10:19:16 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 17 10:19:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <3BCD9E08.8060902@starkmedia.com> isaac wrote: > >>One needs to click on the Update link underneath the Priv level >>stuff, which >>is for something else. Then select a stylesheet, hit save, and then it >>redirects back to FAQ page (not sure why). I'm logged in btw, if that >>matters. redirected to faq cus the front page is taking so long to load since i replicated the live DB down to the test DB this weekend.. > Yeh, that's what happens to me, but the styling of the FAQ change or any > others doesn't change at all. you *are* logged in first right? you shouldn't have had to fill in your name if you were.. it should automagically pull your firstname, lastname out of the users table based on your userid. that page BTW was just to create the member record before you get to pick a stylesheet.. i tried doing it all in one step, but there were 'problems' :) > "Easter - festive green and red; not for those with poor eyesight! (Dan)" hey! that took me like 3 hours to do!! seriously. :) > Yeh, we need an approval process that ensures that the files are up with the > latest (isaac).css, and that they style critical elements, etc. i think anyone here who's got CSS experience and knows what our stylesheets look like can 'approve' them.. .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 17 10:32:12 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 17 10:32:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <3BCDA10F.2000509@starkmedia.com> isaac - erf. not your fault, sorry about the confusion.. seems you had a memberid, but no member record.(AKA dirty data) fixed now, give it another whirl when you have the time, make sure to try easter.css :) .djc. isaac wrote: > i tried selecting granite.css but after saving that, nothing happens. the > site still uses isaac.css. From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Wed Oct 17 13:45:49 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Wed Oct 17 13:45:49 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD23E@arnold.bedrock.com> Michele's reply: | The priv levels are required for attribute information that | members can add | to their own Member Pages. Here's a recent DB diagram that | should explain | it a bit more: http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evolta.gif Thanks for that again. I need some flogging, too, once in a while, to make sure I get what I am supposed to get. (Of course rudy's post about the lozenges/diamonds being absolutely meaningless in the diagram helped with its digestion. Er, maybe they inform the requirement of participation in the relationship? i.e. if the FK is optional or not?) | | Now as far as the difference between a member (Priv 2) and a | user (Priv 1), | my understanding that those with Member pages (not user | pages, the new ones | we are working on) will be considered "Members", whereas | Users will just | have a userid. The way I look at it is this, a member is | someone that wants | to share additional information with other members, and be a | bit more a part | of the Evolt community. OK. I get it. You mean, it's new, and we don't really know what _precisely_ it is yet... that's great, because it will change! | Btw, glad to | see you on this list, I really enjoy your postings on thelist. And I really enjoy your complements. I had some trepidation to begin here, but I couldn't suppress my urge to learn. 8) I am trying to settle down somewhere in a niche... | If you have any other questions or want to jump in and help out on a | project, just holler. Have you see the CodeFest information? | http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/ Under Draft | Task List is the | stuff we were working on at CodeFest. You'll see what | projects/tasks were | completed. My eyes are right now on the search of tips... but I'll have to really consider that before making a move. Input into the reflection process most welcome! | Sometime soon, I'll take the left over projects | and add them to | a.e.o. (admin.evolt.org - you may have to talk to djc about getting a | userid for that application). All things in all good time, right? From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 17 19:45:15 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 17 19:45:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <3BCDA10F.2000509@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > erf. not your fault, sorry about the confusion.. seems you had a > memberid, but no member record.(AKA dirty data) > > fixed now, give it another whirl when you have the time, make sure to > try easter.css :) ok, it worked this time. glad our easter isn't like yours. jk. hover in the topright nav is pretty hard to read (yellow on pastel pink - what were you thinking? ;)) how come i have to go back via my edit membership page and update the privacy of my setting before i get to change the styling? i hope we can change that so that styling is set on a preferences page of some sort. it really needs to be quite distinct form the general membership profile stuff. it does work though. i'm using mccreath's granite style and it's sticking with me for a while. i From mnickel at new.rr.com Wed Oct 17 20:38:43 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Wed Oct 17 20:38:43 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: <01c156be$ac659d00$0c51149a@rudy> Message-ID: <3BCE3414.B7503E1@new.rr.com> rudy wrote: > >> quod erat demonstrandum > > > >And the kiddie version: quite enough done > > actually "which was the thing to be proved" Latin?? Dude, I've enough trouble with *one* language.. :) :) Just kidding. Thanks for the enlightenment. Quid Pro Quo. or something? :) BTW, rudy, pleased to meet you. Your reputation as the DB god proceeds you!! :) :) > > and while i don't understand cookies and tickets and rss feeds (yet), i > have a sneaky suspicion that the separation of userid (remember, it's for > login/email purposes only) and member (identification of the individual) > will be a Good Thing across the various *.e.o sites.... +1 absolutely. I cannot stress this enough. "There can be only one" works for Immortals *and* for evolt.org UEUE... I *think* that using the memberid as the UEUE_ID is probably going to be the way to go.... We haven't completely worked out the conversion details from the current user authentication model to the UEUE model. Heck, we're just flushing out the details on the prototype... Technically w.e.o, m.e.o, *.e.o, in terms of user authentication, will be considered subsites to ueue.evolt.org. So the user authorization model that is used by w.e.o. can be whatever it needs to be. For that matter the user authorization method for each subsite can be whatever is appropriate for that site. But because the current user authentication is relativley flat compaired to the heirarchical UEUE structure, we will most likely borrow the memberid to become the UEUE_ID through the conversion process... Potentially that is... It's a darn good place to start anyway... (For those playing at home, Note the emphasis on User Authentication verses User Authorization. There is a difference. If you are interested, see my member page for a link to the Eagle book that will provide the details http://members.evolt.org/mnickel ) Mark From mwarden at mattwarden.com Wed Oct 17 20:51:58 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Oct 17 20:51:58 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <3BCE3414.B7503E1@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Oct 17, Mark Nickel had something to say about Re: Member Pages .... Re:... >I *think* that using the memberid as the UEUE_ID is probably going to be the >way to go.... We haven't completely worked out the conversion details from the >current user authentication model to the UEUE model. Heck, we're just flushing >out the details on the prototype... ok, just throwing this out there... member mnickel has user ids mnickelhome and mnickelwork. he signs on to weo via a ueue_id and submits an article. we have nfi whether he's submitting as mnickelhome or mnickelwork. i think, just like the cookie field, this things gotta be user-specific, not member specific. also, i believe member records have no username and password fields. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 17 21:20:21 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 17 21:20:21 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. Message-ID: <01c1577b$826474a0$0c51149a@rudy> > i believe member records have no username and password fields. correct and when you think about it, they shouldn't have ;o) as long as we're on the topic, i might as well anticipate somebody asking the question "so how come both the user table and the member table have firstname/lastname columns?" the answer is that the user table was at one time the only table we had, and the member table came later as an attempt to rationalize two situations: that there would be multiple login and email ids, and that we further wanted a distinct status for evoltians who were more than just a userid (perhaps bogus, perhaps anonymous) so let us recap DESCRIBE USERS USERID NOT NULL NUMBER(8) WHO NOT NULL VARCHAR2(50) PASS NOT NULL VARCHAR2(50) CREATEDATE NOT NULL DATE DATEMOD NOT NULL DATE LASTLOGIN NOT NULL DATE LEAVEOUT NOT NULL NUMBER(1) NOTIFY NOT NULL NUMBER(1) ADMIN NOT NULL NUMBER(1) ACTIVE NOT NULL NUMBER(1) GOD NOT NULL NUMBER(1) THELIST NOT NULL NUMBER(1) USERPRIV NOT NULL NUMBER(1) PRIV NOT NULL NUMBER(1) FIRSTNAME VARCHAR2(50) LASTNAME VARCHAR2(50) EMAIL VARCHAR2(50) MEMBERID NUMBER(8) COOKIE VARCHAR2(50) THEWIFE NUMBER(1) DESCRIBE MEMBER MEMBERID NOT NULL NUMBER(8) CREATEDATE NOT NULL DATE DATEMOD NOT NULL DATE FIRSTNAME NOT NULL VARCHAR2(50) LASTNAME NOT NULL VARCHAR2(50) PRIV NOT NULL NUMBER(1) ACTIVE NOT NULL NUMBER(1) as you can see there are still two legacy columns hanging around in the users table that really should be dropped -- ADMIN and GOD, which were replaced by the USERPRIV column USERPRIV is the authority level of the user, and equates to the authority that the user has in viewing other data in evolt, while PRIV is the confidentiality level of the user record data, and equates to the authority that other users must have in order to view this user record -- USERPRIV should remain in the users table rather than migrate to the member table, because an admin may wish to have two user records, one to perform admin functions with and another as an ordinary user to test functions that should be available only to admins thus people will always sign on with a userid and hence there is no need to have username/password in the member table in my opinion it is advisable to leave FIRSTNAME/LASTNAME in both tables obviously, these name columns would have the person's "real" name in the member table but we must also cater to the situation where someone is a user without being a member rudy p.s. pleased to meetcha right back, mark wish i could have been at codefest -- but no money, no job, no travel oh well, i made the first two ;o) From mnickel at new.rr.com Wed Oct 17 21:32:17 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Wed Oct 17 21:32:17 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <3BCE4083.C963C3C@new.rr.com> > member mnickel has user ids mnickelhome and mnickelwork. he signs on > to weo via a ueue_id and submits an article. we have nfi whether he's > submitting as mnickelhome or mnickelwork. ?? Ok, I'll admit lack of experience here, but wouldn't I authenticate using mnickelhome or mnickelwork not mnickel? Or as some point during the article submission process I can choose which user id I want to use?? In any case, I am assuming that I would sign on as mnickelhome. ueue.evolt.org would set my user_name = mnickelhome and ueue_id are put into the cookie jar. (right now there is no ueue_id so this is theoretical) So when I'm redirected back to w.e.o. ColdFusion sets session variables are set by querying the User table using my user_name cookie. The session values that ColdFusion sets are exactly the same as they are today... All we would be doing is altering some of the ColdFusion logic. My user_name should be enough to correctly Identify me to w.e.o... Ok, in reality this probably should be USERID instead of user_name (which would be the WHO field??), but in this example, mnickelhome, should be stored in the USERS table. > i think, just like the cookie field, this things gotta be user-specific, > not member specific. agreed. But some sites might not want to have such a system... They may want one user = one member so the ueue_id would be enough to identify the user in the subsite's user tables... Mark From mwarden at mattwarden.com Wed Oct 17 21:38:20 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Oct 17 21:38:20 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. In-Reply-To: <3BCE4083.C963C3C@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Oct 17, Mark Nickel had something to say about Re: Member Pages .... Re:... >> member mnickel has user ids mnickelhome and mnickelwork. he signs on >> to weo via a ueue_id and submits an article. we have nfi whether he's >> submitting as mnickelhome or mnickelwork. > >?? Ok, I'll admit lack of experience here, but wouldn't I authenticate using >mnickelhome or mnickelwork not mnickel? exactly! mnickelhome is your username, which is stored in the user table. that's the authentication side. now the application side. everything relates to the user table. we need to know the userid. the userid needs to be in the ueue id. >In any case, I am assuming that I would sign on as mnickelhome. ueue.evolt.org >would set my user_name = mnickelhome and ueue_id are put into the cookie jar. >(right now there is no ueue_id so this is theoretical) i was assuming it would be an encrypted version of userid... in your doc you talk about not needing to query the database and just running off the cookie. well, freddy, we need the userid in the cookie then =) >So when I'm redirected back to w.e.o. ColdFusion sets session variables are set by >querying the User table using my user_name cookie. So... we need synched member tables again, eh? >The session values that >ColdFusion sets are exactly the same as they are today... All we would be doing is >altering some of the ColdFusion logic. My user_name should be enough to correctly >Identify me to w.e.o... ... then why not userid rather than username? >Ok, in reality this probably should be USERID instead of user_name (which would be >the WHO field??), but in this example, mnickelhome, should be stored in the USERS >table. i really should read the entire email before replying... who is the username, i believe. there is a specific foreign key called "userid". >> i think, just like the cookie field, this things gotta be user-specific, >> not member specific. > >agreed. But some sites might not want to have such a system... They may want one >user = one member so the ueue_id would be enough to identify the user in the >subsite's user tables... hmmm... i guess i wasn't looking at the possibility of needing that much flexibility. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mnickel at new.rr.com Thu Oct 18 00:00:05 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Oct 18 00:00:05 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: Message-ID: <3BCE6347.DEFB6754@new.rr.com> "Warden, Matt" wrote: > i was assuming it would be an encrypted version of userid... in your doc > you talk about not needing to query the database and just running off the > cookie. well, freddy, we need the userid in the cookie then =) Yup, I can see that now IF you couldn't/didn't want to query the USERS table based on the text contained within the user_name cookie. From a Database H4x0r perspective, of course querying by the user_id will be more efficient than by the text name... Ideally I'd like to see the ueue_id be used in the USERS table *as* the user_id. However, this might not be possible in the current w.e.o. architecture... I believe that it is possible, but is yet to be determined in the conversion phase... :) > >So when I'm redirected back to w.e.o. ColdFusion sets session variables are set by > >querying the User table using my user_name cookie. > > So... we need synched member tables again, eh? Maybe... I mean that the ColdFusion code on the w.e.o site, is setting session variables based on querying the USERS table using the user_id or user_name contained in the cookies. There will be values that are stored in USERS table that are not needed in the UEUE tables. The UEUE table will be something like this: user_id user_name user_first_name user_last_name user_email user_password Maybe there would be user_priv field too. I don't want to start putting role-based information into ueue.evolt.org unless we want more stuff centralized... That just keeps upping the antie towards a XML-RPC/synchronization solutoin. If we need to pass more fields from ueue.evolt.org then they'll be passed in the cookies... Of course they'll all be signed/MD5'ed with the secret_ueue_key.. :) Granted there is a limit to the amount of data we want to be passing in the cookies. However, the other way involves putting in XML-RPC/SOAP/"web services" that the ColdFusion code running on w.e.o can make calls to the ueue.evolt.org web services to dynamically look up the data that's not stored in the cookies... This is an infrastructure that will take a while because it's not a simple client-server database query. One has to assume that the subsites are on completely different networks from ueue.evolt.org. Hence the perceived "value" of Sun ONE/J2EE and .Net... ahem.. :) You've already discussed such a synchronization scheme... Joshua has also outlined details using XML cruft. Updating information on ueue.evolt.org --------------------------------------- We are working on a method for subsite *.evolt.org and ueue.evolt.org to know when UEUE information is getting updated or subsite user information is needing to be updated... We are going to try and model this in our prototype.... With clever redirection URLs I believe this will be totally transparent to the user. Always gotta have ACDF .. Add, Change, Delete Functionality. :) > ... then why not userid rather than username? > > >Ok, in reality this probably should be USERID instead of user_name (which would be > >the WHO field??), but in this example, mnickelhome, should be stored in the USERS > >table. > > i really should read the entire email before replying... :) we can use that then... I believe during the conversion to UEUE, the ueue_id will *be* the user_id in the existing USERS table... Just a hunch.. :) whew! this thread/UEUE subject may be even longer than the power cubes!! :) :) Also, Please feel free to slap me with a trout if I get out of line! :) I have thick, flame retardent skin! :) Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 01:33:24 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 01:33:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: .jeff wrote on 17/10/01 12:15 am >however, the only way to stop this is to set the cookie at the domain level: > >evolt.org >browsers.evolt.org >food.evolt.org >... >test.evolt.org >www.evolt.org > >with the one exception that we don't set it for members.evolt.org. that >effectively neuters anything we want to do with meo proper, but doesn't >expose the cookies to being read by meo account holders. Could be avoided if we separated the meo admin stuff from the meo member space > i guess the important part is to >determine the risk involved and decide if it's worth the "expense". Of course Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 01:47:46 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 18 01:47:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Could be avoided if we separated the meo admin stuff from the meo > member space > > > i guess the important part is to > >determine the risk involved and decide if it's worth the "expense". As Martin hinted, would this risk be eliminated if the members web space was not a *.evolt.org, but something else such as http://evolters.org/user/? Though that might be unachievable due to members establishing themselves at the current URLs. To handle pissed off people who have printed portfolios with that URL (I know of one guy who has that URL printed on quite expensively put together folios: http://members.evolt.org/horsnell/), could we implement redirects using Apache? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 02:01:54 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 18 02:01:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > > with the one exception that we don't set it for > > members.evolt.org. that effectively neuters anything > > we want to do with meo proper, but doesn't expose the > > cookies to being read by meo account holders. > > Could be avoided if we separated the meo admin stuff > from the meo member space ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it can't be avoided by simply moving meo admin stuff elsewhere. the problem, as it exists right now, is that the easiest way to set a cookie that can be read by all sites is to set it to *.evolt.org. that means that anybody with a member site can read it. you can limit the path up the chain (as you chop off directories in the request) that can read the cookie by specifying a path, but you can't limit the path down the chain (directories off the domain). so, a path of "/jeff/" and a domain of *.evolt.org would keep any site within evolt.org from reading the cookie, except for those cases where the site is trying to read it from a directory named "jeff". this effectively keeps the contents of my cookie within my "user space" on m.e.o. however, i can't specify a path of "/" and expect the cookie from not getting sent when requesting sub-directories. that aside, the top-level pages of m.e.o (account signup, front page, etc.) all need to respond to the user and be able to read a cookie with that user's authentication. i see no way of being able to do that without exposing the cookie to m.e.o accounts. make any sense at all? .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 02:02:50 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 18 02:02:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: isaac > > As Martin hinted, would this risk be eliminated if the > members web space was not a *.evolt.org, but something > else such as http://evolters.org/user/? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't like that *at all*. sorry, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 02:06:54 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 02:06:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0ae2743070712a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> .jeff wrote on 18/10/01 8:03 am >that aside, the top-level pages of m.e.o (account signup, front page, etc.) >all need to respond to the user and be able to read a cookie with that >user's authentication. i see no way of being able to do that without >exposing the cookie to m.e.o accounts. What I was thinking of was putting the admin stuff (account signup etc) on a separate subdomain, and having the cookies set at subdomain level (weo, aeo etc specified separately rather than as *eo) for everything except meo. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 02:07:00 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 02:07:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <0af9f43070712a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 18/10/01 8:48 am >As Martin hinted, would this risk be eliminated if the members web space was >not a *.evolt.org, but something else such as http://evolters.org/user/? > >Though that might be unachievable due to members establishing themselves at >the current URLs. To handle pissed off people who have printed portfolios >with that URL (I know of one guy who has that URL printed on quite >expensively put together folios: http://members.evolt.org/horsnell/), could >we implement redirects using Apache? The easier way would be to move the admin pages, not the member accounts. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 02:18:30 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Oct 18 02:18:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > As Martin hinted, would this risk be eliminated if the > > members web space was not a *.evolt.org, but something > > else such as http://evolters.org/user/? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i don't like that *at all*. that's a shame. i think evolters.org would be really cool. MEO would be the official setup and info joint. while the evolter.org frontdoor would showcase members with cool sites, talk about how many members were having a go (and optionally, what they were doing with their space, etc). right now, MEO is very bland. it doesn't look at all fun. there should be the normal part (current MEO - handles status, new members, etc), and a fun part (frontdoor for existing member sites). > The easier way would be to move the admin pages, not the member accounts. martin: easier != best (or for access users: easier <> best) if apache can handle the redirects, we would allow *.evolt.org cookies without compromising security, have a fun(ner) place for member areas ("evolters" is the community-adopted name people are giving themselves), give them a shorter URL and email address, with not a huge amount of trouble. i don't mind paying for the URL either. i From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com Thu Oct 18 04:20:30 2001 From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com) Date: Thu Oct 18 04:20:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] [bug] Denied notice for article didn't go out? Message-ID: Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers -------------------- Start of message text -------------------- I got all the update notifications, and the approved one, but the denied one Matt's referring to here didn't reach me (here or at home) and it's not in the Admin archives. Suggests that it didn't go out to Admin at all. Cheers Martin Please respond to admin at lists.evolt.org Sent by: admin-admin at lists.evolt.org To: admin at lists.evolt.org cc: Subject: Re: [Admin] Article Update - CodeFest 2001: An evolt.org Gatheringin Milwaukee >so you denied it? i've never been one to leave works in progress in the new articles queue... -- mattwarden mattwarden.com ___________________________________________________ ultra exciting ubiqutous errorfree united evolt userid effort, uniquely empowering unification (of) everyone under everything --------------------- End of message text -------------------- This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. 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From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Oct 18 08:08:12 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Oct 18 08:08:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <0ae2743070712a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 18, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] My Intro and a... >.jeff wrote on 18/10/01 8:03 am > >>that aside, the top-level pages of m.e.o (account signup, front page, etc.) >>all need to respond to the user and be able to read a cookie with that >>user's authentication. i see no way of being able to do that without >>exposing the cookie to m.e.o accounts. > >What I was thinking of was putting the admin stuff (account signup >etc) on a separate subdomain, and having the cookies set at >subdomain level (weo, aeo etc specified separately rather than as >*eo) for everything except meo. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but... there can be only one path for a cookie. IOW, you'd have to set X copies of the same cookie (except for a different path attribute) where X is the number of subdomains we want that cookie to be read from. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 18 08:47:13 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 18 08:47:13 2001 Subject: Member Pages .... Re: [thesite] user selecteble stylesheets.. References: <3BCE6347.DEFB6754@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <001001c157db$74cf94e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Nickel" | The UEUE table will be something like this: | user_id | user_name | user_first_name | user_last_name | user_email | user_password | | Maybe there would be user_priv field too. I don't want to start putting role-based | information into ueue.evolt.org unless we want more stuff centralized... That just | keeps upping the antie towards a XML-RPC/synchronization solutoin. Priv level should be set for each *.e.o. site. For examples, there's no reason why Matt shouldn't have Priv 4 on f.e.o., I've got Priv 4 on a.e.o., and Simon should/could have Priv 3 or 4 for d.e.o., etc. So, yes, I agree not to put role-based info in ueue. ;) Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 10:05:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 10:05:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: Message-ID: <3BCEEC1A.6070504@starkmedia.com> you guys do realize that you can't use the cookie without validating them against the hash right? there are two fields for every value in the cookie: USER_NAME = djc USER_NAME_HASH = MD5(USER_NAME.ueue-server-secret-key) where USER_NAME_HASH would end up with something like 12039123n12klj3hsd8ui123jh12 when m.e.o gets that info, it doesn't automatically assume I'm djc(and the privledges that go with my userid), it runs the plain text value through the hash as well. if they don't match, m.e.o knows its not me and wipes the cookie or sends me back to ueue.evolt.org to revalidate. so little Joey Cracker that has a m.e.o account could set a cookie claiming he was djc and had a priv level of 4 and send himself to the main site to delete all of isaac's articles. fuck, he could even create a cookie with values like USER_NAME = djc USER_NAME_HASH = MD5(USER_NAME.JOEY-secret-key) so it looks *just like ours*. the problem is, he hashed it with a different secret key so when he goes to w.e.o it won't validate. better luck next time, insert coin, game over. no need for new domains, moving shit, or paranoia... this is all spelled out pretty clearly in marks write up at http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue.html :) .djc. .jeff wrote: >>Could be avoided if we separated the meo admin stuff >>from the meo member space >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > it can't be avoided by simply moving meo admin stuff elsewhere. the > problem, as it exists right now, is that the easiest way to set a cookie > that can be read by all sites is to set it to *.evolt.org. that means that > anybody with a member site can read it. you can limit the path up the chain > (as you chop off directories in the request) that can read the cookie by > specifying a path, but you can't limit the path down the chain (directories > off the domain). > > so, a path of "/jeff/" and a domain of *.evolt.org would keep any site > within evolt.org from reading the cookie, except for those cases where the > site is trying to read it from a directory named "jeff". this effectively > keeps the contents of my cookie within my "user space" on m.e.o. however, i > can't specify a path of "/" and expect the cookie from not getting sent when > requesting sub-directories. > > that aside, the top-level pages of m.e.o (account signup, front page, etc.) > all need to respond to the user and be able to read a cookie with that > user's authentication. i see no way of being able to do that without > exposing the cookie to m.e.o accounts. From morbus at disobey.com Thu Oct 18 10:45:13 2001 From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff) Date: Thu Oct 18 10:45:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018114441.01503260@mail.totalnetnh.net> Assumptionary. Good one. Anyways, the evolt.org RSS feed here: http://www.evolt.org/rdf/articles/index.html Is doing something stupid - it's include an actual tag within the tag itself. The tag should ONLY contain the URL to the in question - it shouldn't contain markup (much less, markup which hasn't been encoded). Thoughts? -- Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan porn rulezzzzz ) http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/ please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554 icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 11:52:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 11:52:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018114441.01503260@mail.totalnetnh.net> Message-ID: <3BCF04FE.90102@starkmedia.com> you're the RSS expert ;) just to be clear. No RAND for Me should instead be No RAND for Me ?? Morbus Iff wrote: > Assumptionary. Good one. > > Anyways, the evolt.org RSS feed here: > > http://www.evolt.org/rdf/articles/index.html > > Is doing something stupid - it's include an actual tag within the > tag itself. The tag should ONLY contain the URL to the > in question - it shouldn't contain markup (much less, markup > which hasn't been encoded). From morbus at disobey.com Thu Oct 18 11:58:54 2001 From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff) Date: Thu Oct 18 11:58:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... In-Reply-To: <3BCF04FE.90102@starkmedia.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018114441.01503260@mail.totalnetnh.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018125751.0179e090@red.totalnetnh.net> >you're the RSS expert ;) I just play one on TV. I have no flippin clue what I'm talking about ;) It should be: http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/25/16343/index.html The link should only be the URL - no title, no description, nothing. The feed readers themselves will construct a "clickable" / "hot" link if they're display mechanism allows it. -- Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan porn rulezzzzz ) http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/ please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554 icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 12:45:07 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 18 12:45:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <3BCEEC1A.6070504@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > you guys do realize that you can't use the cookie > without validating them against the hash right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< of course. if not, what would be the point of hasing it to begin with, right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > when m.e.o gets that info, it doesn't automatically > assume I'm djc(and the privledges that go with my > userid), it runs the plain text value through the > hash as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and double-checks that they both match as encrypted values. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > if they don't match, m.e.o knows its not me and wipes > the cookie or sends me back to ueue.evolt.org to > revalidate. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > so little Joey Cracker that has a m.e.o account could > set a cookie claiming he was djc and had a priv level > of 4 and send himself to the main site to delete all > of isaac's articles. fuck, he could even create a > cookie with values like > > USER_NAME = djc > USER_NAME_HASH = MD5(USER_NAME.JOEY-secret-key) > > so it looks *just like ours*. the problem is, he hashed > it with a different secret key so when he goes to w.e.o > it won't validate. better luck next time, insert coin, > game over. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< keeping the meo account holders from *creating* cookies is fine. however, keeping them from reading your cookie and *copying* it is another store. all they have to do is log all the cookie values of visitors to their site then start down the list with those cookies values as their own until they find one that gives them the appropriate level of access. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > no need for new domains, moving shit, or paranoia... > this is all spelled out pretty clearly in marks write > up at http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue.html :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i hate to burst your bubble, but the implications of having a member-base with direct access to the visitors' cookies is neither addressed in mark's writeup nor chapter 6 in the eagle book. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 13:00:33 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:00:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal References: Message-ID: <3BCF14CD.2060903@starkmedia.com> what list are they starting down? the l ist of cookies they've logged? so Joey Cracker gets my userid and priv level from my cookie. what can he do with it if its not got a corresponding userid_hash value that uses our secret key? (just looking for an example from your POV) .djc. .jeff wrote: > keeping the meo account holders from *creating* cookies is fine. however, > keeping them from reading your cookie and *copying* it is another store. > all they have to do is log all the cookie values of visitors to their site > then start down the list with those cookies values as their own until they > find one that gives them the appropriate level of access. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 13:07:56 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:07:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal In-Reply-To: <3BCF14CD.2060903@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > what list are they starting down? the list of cookies > they've logged? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > so Joey Cracker gets my userid and priv level from my > cookie. what can he do with it if its not got a > corresponding userid_hash value that uses our secret > key? (just looking for an example from your POV) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< isn't the value of the cookie already hashed? perhaps i'm not understanding because my assumption of the value contained in the cookie is different than yours. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 13:36:34 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:36:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] how ueue works References: Message-ID: <3BCF1D2B.1080308@starkmedia.com> ok, heres an example that will clear it up i think :) (only using a very simple example here for time purposes) when i login to ueue.evolt.org it will check for my username and passwd. in the live DB. if they're correct, it says, "Ok, lemme set dans userid to a cookie and also run his userid through a MD5 algorithm and set that as a cookie too". the first cookie is in plain text. the second one is a once in a lifetime string set with the MD5 protocol. it takes my userid and sends it through an algorithm using a couple variables like so: userid_hash = MD5(userid.SUPERSECRETPASSWORD) and gets 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b as a result. therefore, userid_hash = 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b ok, still with me? :) it then sets two cookies for me: userid = 5 userid_hash = 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b and sends me on my merry way back to members.evolt.org. members.evolt.org looks at my cookies and says, "Ok, this person has a couple *.evolt.org userid cookies. lemme check them" (remember that m.e.o 'knows' what the SUPERSECRETPASSWORD is) it then takes the userid cookie, and says, "Ok, this guy is claiming he has a userid of 5. lemme double check" m.e.o then looks at my userid_hash cookie and does something like this psuedocode: START. IF: MD5($ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID*SUPERSECRETPASSWORD) = $ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID_HASH THEN: set members.evolt.org.session.userid = ueue.evolt.org.cookie.userid & location = members.evolt.org/index.cfm ELSE: echo "Fuck off and have a nice day! :)" & location = ueue.evolt.org END. $ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID is just the plaintext USERID cookie. and $ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID_HASH is one created from the MD5 algorithm. still with me? :) if the plaintext cookie and the 'hashed' cookie don't match up when the Child Server(m.e.o in this case) runs MD5 'against' the plaintext and the SUPERSECRETPASSWORD, it boots you back and calls your mom. MD5 is kinda like multiplying two prime numbers together if you think about it.. its easy to multipy 20988936657440586486151264256610222593863921 times(*) 20988936657440586486151264256610222593863921 to get our 'hash': 4.4053546201005321934871230285669e+62 but *fuck* is it hard to try to figure out what two numbers you have to multiply together to get : 4.4053546201005321934871230285669e+62 and MD5 is like 3l337e+3l337 times more difficult than that :) it comes down to the fact that our applications are giong to 'know' the two prime numbers(userid, SUPERSECRETPASSWORD) while Joey Cracker with his m.e.o account only knows 1, which with a fucking Cray he could figure out, but if he has a Cray, I say we just give him access and save everyone the trouble ;) hopefully that clears it up a bit, keep asking me if now and i'll try again :) .djc. yes those are real prime numbers :) .jeff wrote: > isn't the value of the cookie already hashed? > > perhaps i'm not understanding because my assumption of the value contained > in the cookie is different than yours. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 13:39:06 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:39:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] how ueue works ACK! References: <3BCF1D2B.1080308@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BCF1DC3.8040207@starkmedia.com> dammit. something that might confuse you: Daniel J. Cody wrote: > members.evolt.org looks at my cookies and says, "Ok, this person has a > couple *.evolt.org userid cookies. lemme check them" i should clarify that when i say members.evolt.org looks at my cookie, its *OUR* application thats looking at the cookie. whew. From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Thu Oct 18 13:41:20 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:41:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD252@arnold.bedrock.com> | so Joey Cracker gets my userid and priv level from my cookie. | what can | he do with it if its not got a corresponding userid_hash | value that uses | our secret key? (just looking for an example from your POV) If the hash doesn't change, then couldn't he just resubmit the user_id and user_id hash? Likewise with the rest of the attributes/attribute_hash pairs? Like .jeff says, if he kept a running log, and kept all the hashed cookies? (yum!) P.S. you told us to ask... ! 8) From john at userfrenzy.com Thu Oct 18 13:47:46 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:47:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... In-Reply-To: <3BCF04FE.90102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: 18 October 2001 17:36 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... > > Morbus Iff wrote: > > > Assumptionary. Good one. > > > > Anyways, the evolt.org RSS feed here: > > > > http://www.evolt.org/rdf/articles/index.html Yeah, dunno why people keep looking at that one. http://evolt.org/evolt/xml/rdf.cfm is correct RSS 0.9. [Clickety] Or rather it was. Where's it gone? ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 13:50:13 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:50:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] how ueue works Message-ID: <07c9d06511812a1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 18/10/01 7:19 pm >IF: > >MD5($ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID*SUPERSECRETPASSWORD) = >$ueue.evolt.org.cookie.USERID_HASH > >THEN: > >set members.evolt.org.session.userid = ueue.evolt.org.cookie.userid > & location = members.evolt.org/index.cfm OK, say J R Hacker's got a meo account & you visit his site. His site reads and reports your cookies as userid = 5 userid_hash = 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b When JR visits his SuperSexySecretUEUESet page, he picks which user ID to have today, and it sets those same cookies to his browser. JR then visits (say) aeo and wreaks havoc. How do we stop that? >the first cookie is in plain text. the second one is a once in a >lifetime string set with the MD5 protocol. it takes my userid and sends >it through an algorithm using a couple variables like so: > >userid_hash = MD5(userid.SUPERSECRETPASSWORD) and gets >3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b as a result. therefore, >userid_hash = 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b Isn't the User ID is pretty open - for example, Matt's user page is http://www.evolt.org/user/mwarden/65/index.html Isaac's is http://www.evolt.org/user/isaac/79/index.html Both security credentials out in the open. Would it be better to hash the password? btw, you're right - MD5 is *super* cool. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 13:52:27 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:52:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <07e3220531812a1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Warden, Matt wrote on 18/10/01 2:08 pm >>>that aside, the top-level pages of m.e.o (account signup, front page, etc.) >>>all need to respond to the user and be able to read a cookie with that >>>user's authentication. i see no way of being able to do that without >>>exposing the cookie to m.e.o accounts. >> >>What I was thinking of was putting the admin stuff (account signup >>etc) on a separate subdomain, and having the cookies set at >>subdomain level (weo, aeo etc specified separately rather than as >>*eo) for everything except meo. > >someone correct me if i'm wrong, but... > >there can be only one path for a cookie. IOW, you'd have to set X copies >of the same cookie (except for a different path attribute) where X is the >number of subdomains we want that cookie to be read from. Yup. More work, but more secure. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 18 13:52:51 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Thu Oct 18 13:52:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] My Intro and a look at a UEUE Proposal Message-ID: <07d0820531812a1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 18/10/01 3:50 pm >so little Joey Cracker that has a m.e.o account could set a cookie >claiming he was djc and had a priv level of 4 and send himself to the >main site to delete all of isaac's articles. fuck, he could even create >a cookie with values like > >USER_NAME = djc >USER_NAME_HASH = MD5(USER_NAME.JOEY-secret-key) Absolutely agree that Joey C couldn't make up UEUE hashes from scratch. The only risk is from meo account holders who can record both values. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From mnickel at www.llamacom.com Thu Oct 18 16:51:14 2001 From: mnickel at www.llamacom.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Oct 18 16:51:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] how ueue works In-Reply-To: <07c9d06511812a1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Martin wrote: > OK, say J R Hacker's got a meo account & you visit his > His site reads and reports your cookies as > userid = 5 > userid_hash = 3cc076a28ccb2505ea525aca65e1185b > > When JR visits his SuperSexySecretUEUESet page, he picks > which user ID to have today, and it sets those same cookies > to his browser. > > JR then visits (say) aeo and wreaks havoc. > > How do we stop that? > By introducing a subsite_secret_key that is assigned by ueue.evolt.org which is unique to each subsite? :) ueue.evolt.org will maintain a list of all subsite's and issue each subsite a secret key. When the subsite passes user authentication up to ueue.evolt.org, it includes a MD5 hash like this: subsite_id_hash = MD5($subsite_secret_key.$ueue_server_secret_key); Then before ueue.evolt.org does the user authentication and sets the user_* cookies, it will verify that the authentication request has come from a valid subsite server. If you look here: http://members.evolt.org/garrett/uetest/register.phps, you'll see what I'm talking about... Here is the ueue register emulator: http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue/ueue_register.phps that the form on garrett's site POST's to. ueue.evolt.org should probably build the user_*_hash using the following formula: userid_hash = MD5(userid.$ueue_server_secret_key.$subsite_secret_key); Then when the subsite validates the hash, it uses this method to verify that the cookie is for it. So, if the subsite were m.e.o, the haxor couldn't just use the userid_hash for a.e.o. because a.e.o would have a different subsite_secret_key than m.e.o. Now you may ask, how can I go to a different *.evolt.org subsite when My cookies are only for a specific subsite? Ok, maybe your not asking that... :) :) This process will be a lot of back and forth between the browser getting redirected all over the place, but remember, we are doing this because we don't want to do the XML-RPC BS yet... :) Ok. Now, my cookie jar is full of cookies that are signed by m.e.o. and I want to do something on a.e.o. So, I go to a.e.o. a.e.o detects that I've got cookies and attempts to authorize me. It's $subsite_secret_key is different from m.e.o.'s so the hash comparison failes. a.e.o redirects the browser to ueue.evolt.org and includes a.e.o.'s subsite_id_hash. ueue.evolt.org then picks up all this stuff and rewrites all the cookies to be MD5'ed with a.e.o. $subsite_secret_key. ueue.evolt.org redirects back to a.e.o. and a.e.o. can now properly authorizse the cookies... This will necessitate adding a user_passwrd_hash = MD5(user_password.$ueue_server_secret_key) cookie. Obviously we won't need to have the plain text version of the user_password.. :) When ueue.evolt.org gets the redirect from a.e.o. it will verify the users_password_hash. Then it will be able to reMD5 the cookies to include the a.e.o. subsite_secret_key... whew... I hope that this somehow makes sense... Garrett and I will work to include these new cookies/hashes into the prototype so you can see a little better what's going on.... > Would it be better to hash the password? > btw, you're right - MD5 is *super* cool. > As you say, Martin, yup, hash the users password so that only the ueue.evolt.org will be able to authenticate the user and rewrite cookies to include new $subsite_secret_key's as the user moves between *.evolt.org sites... Mark From hassan at webtuitive.com Thu Oct 18 19:43:38 2001 From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder) Date: Thu Oct 18 19:43:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] dir.evolt.org broken? pardon the interruption, but -- Message-ID: <3BCF776B.18A5BF50@webtuitive.com> this seemed the fastest way to get the attention of someone who can do something about it :-) Trying to connect to dir.evolt.org :: Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in /home/directory/includes/evoltSQL.php on line 33 Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in /home/directory/includes/evoltSQL.php on line 33 [Connection attempt failed] ( 2002 : Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) ) -- H* Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 -- From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 21:15:00 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 21:15:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] dir.evolt.org broken? pardon the interruption, but -- References: <3BCF776B.18A5BF50@webtuitive.com> Message-ID: <3BCF8D98.7060700@starkmedia.com> hey hassan - should be good now. cf 5 has this *fucked up* think where it will only look for the mysql.sock file in /var/lib/mysql - where the Redhat RPM puts it when you install MySQL with RPM's. so when i compiled from source, it went into /tmp/ instead. so i had to change where the .sock file was stored to accomodate CF(bah) and didn't realized it was hosing all the PHP stuff(i redid phpmyadmin myself) yet another triumph for closed source. not :) thanks for the heads up guys :) .djc. Hassan Schroeder wrote: > this seemed the fastest way to get the attention of someone who can > do something about it :-) > > Trying to connect to dir.evolt.org :: > > > Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in > /home/directory/includes/evoltSQL.php on line 33 > > Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket > '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in /home/directory/includes/evoltSQL.php on line 33 > [Connection attempt failed] ( 2002 : Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket > '/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) ) > > > From bruce at heerssen.com Thu Oct 18 21:55:42 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Thu Oct 18 21:55:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] RSS Feed is Assumptionary... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011018114441.01503260@mail.totalnetnh.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011018125751.0179e090@red.totalnetnh.net> Message-ID: <3BCF8613.1000509@heerssen.com> Morbus Iff wrote: > It should be: > > http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/25/16343/index.html > > The link should only be the URL - no title, no description, nothing. The > feed readers themselves will construct a "clickable" / "hot" link if > they're display mechanism allows it. This is correct. Here is an example of a well-formed rdf feed: http://slashdot.org/slashdot.rdf View source to see the structure. -Bruce From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 18 23:21:30 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 18 23:21:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. Message-ID: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> ran some benchmarks today with ab(posted some of the results on thelist today) to see how we would handle a slashdotting. i was actually pretty impressed with CF handling the load to say the least :) we're running CF5 now on every *.evolt.org site that uses CF thanks to an anonymous donation. heres some sample results of a couple variables i used to simulate a slashdotting: Server Software: Apache/1.3.20 Server Hostname: evolt.org Server Port: 80 Document Path: /article/apache/17/16466/index.html Document Length: 18078 bytes Concurrency Level: 50 Time taken for tests: 506.435 seconds Complete requests: 2000 Failed requests: 0 Broken pipe errors: 0 Total transferred: 36785776 bytes HTML transferred: 36156000 bytes Requests per second: 3.95 [#/sec] (mean) Time per request: 12660.88 [ms] (mean) Time per request: 253.22 [ms] (mean, across all concurrent requests) Transfer rate: 72.64 [Kbytes/sec] received i've been tuning it all night to get up to 4 reqs/sec for an article page. i used the latest article for this test, but the frontpage, god forbid if it ever got linked to from /., wouldn't hold up even close to this.. i ran the test from leo.evolt.org so bandwidth wouldn't be a limiting issue, but you can see even with that kind of load we're pushing 2/3'rds of the evolt t-1. coupled with out usual traffic load from thelists, member accounts, and regular websites - we'd max out our t-1 before we ever got to the point of crashing CF, which is a good thing in a way.. anyways, i'm bored. you all have to deal with it now by listening to my geeky benchmarking happy good times.. :) so, we're about as tuned as evolt is gonna get IMO. my job is done here, i'm heading back to mexico or something ;) .djc. From bruce at heerssen.com Fri Oct 19 00:45:36 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Fri Oct 19 00:45:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] PHP - fopen() error Message-ID: <3BCFAE45.9010103@heerssen.com> So, I've been playing around with rdf feeds and I got slashdot's working on my local server, but when I uploaded the file to meo, it tanked. The error is: Warning: fopen("http://slashdot.org/slashdot.rdf","r") - No such file or directory in /home/bheerssen/public_html/slashdot.php on line 2 the url is: http://members.evolt.org/bheerssen/ The thing is, php isn't supposed to look on the local machine for files beginning with 'http://'. Anyone know what's up? Thanks, -Bruce P.S. - I posted this here because it seems like it might be a server configuration issue. From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 19 01:03:45 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 19 01:03:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] PHP - fopen() error References: <3BCFAE45.9010103@heerssen.com> Message-ID: <3BCFC332.4030004@starkmedia.com> Bruce -- I disabled the fopen() method to deal with DOS attacks. Sadly, it fucks up a couple things. Imagine a page on m.e.o called /joey/dos.php that had an fopen() function to /joey/dos.php heylllllo vger, we have an infinite loop :) again, sorry i had to block it, but after some of the shit this summer, it had to happen :( .djc. Bruce Heerssen wrote: > So, I've been playing around with rdf feeds and I got slashdot's working > on my local server, but when I uploaded the file to meo, it tanked. The > error is: > > Warning: fopen("http://slashdot.org/slashdot.rdf","r") - No such file or > directory in /home/bheerssen/public_html/slashdot.php on line 2 > > the url is: > http://members.evolt.org/bheerssen/ > > The thing is, php isn't supposed to look on the local machine for files > beginning with 'http://'. > > Anyone know what's up? From bruce at heerssen.com Fri Oct 19 01:15:38 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Fri Oct 19 01:15:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] PHP - fopen() error References: <3BCFAE45.9010103@heerssen.com> <3BCFC332.4030004@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BCFB3BE.3020009@heerssen.com> Daniel J. Cody wrote: > Bruce -- > > I disabled the fopen() method to deal with DOS attacks. Sadly, it fucks > up a couple things. Imagine a page on m.e.o called /joey/dos.php that > had an fopen() function to /joey/dos.php Oh. That's a shame. Understandable though. Thanks -Bruce From joshua at alphashop.com Fri Oct 19 06:43:10 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Fri Oct 19 06:43:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <094701c15894$74b83d40$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> So I guess the next question is this, would anybody be willing to mock up the homepage and an article page in PHP and perform the same tests? -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. : ran some benchmarks today with ab(posted some of the results on thelist : today) to see how we would handle a slashdotting. From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 19 09:52:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Oct 19 09:52:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <094701c15894$74b83d40$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > So I guess the next question is this, would anybody > be willing to mock up the homepage and an article > page in PHP and perform the same tests? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< any reasons other than to get a comparison? if so, i don't see the point. the comparison won't be fair because the php version won't have all the architectural underpinnings to process that the coldfusion one currently has. in order to get a fair comparison you'd have to write a php version of the evolt.org cms we have now. simply writing up a couple of test pages that hit the db in the same way isn't going to give you any comparative benchmarks to work from. just my 2?, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From bobd at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 19 09:53:44 2001 From: bobd at members.evolt.org (Bob Davis) Date: Fri Oct 19 09:53:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> References: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: At 11:25 PM -0500 10/18/01, you wrote: >ran some benchmarks today with ab(posted some of the results on >thelist today) to see how we would handle a slashdotting. Cool. How long has it been? 1.5-2 years? We're due again. >i was actually pretty impressed with CF handling the load to say the >least :) we're running CF5 now on every *.evolt.org site that uses >CF thanks to an anonymous donation. heres some sample results of a >couple variables i used to simulate a slashdotting: > > >i've been tuning it all night to get up to 4 reqs/sec for an article >page. i used the latest article for this test, but the frontpage, >god forbid if it ever got linked to from /., wouldn't hold up even >close to this.. i ran the test from leo.evolt.org so bandwidth >wouldn't be a limiting issue, but you can see even with that kind of >load we're pushing 2/3'rds of the evolt t-1. coupled with out usual >traffic load from thelists, member accounts, and regular websites - >we'd max out our t-1 before we ever got to the point of crashing CF, >which is a good thing in a way.. :) Cool! That's awesome, Dan. Thanks to the AD for the upgrade (if you're listening...). >anyways, i'm bored. you all have to deal with it now by listening to >my geeky benchmarking happy good times.. :) ;) Thanks. >so, we're about as tuned as evolt is gonna get IMO. my job is done >here, i'm heading back to mexico or something ;) Thanks for the tuning! That's awesome. bob -- bob davis bobd at members.evolt.org http://www.bobdavis.org/ From bruce at heerssen.com Fri Oct 19 11:24:14 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Fri Oct 19 11:24:14 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) References: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BD043F7.4000403@heerssen.com> Daniel J. Cody wrote: > ran some benchmarks today with ab(posted some of the results on thelist > today) to see how we would handle a slashdotting. > > i was actually pretty impressed with CF handling the load to say the > least :) we're running CF5 now on every *.evolt.org site that uses CF > thanks to an anonymous donation. heres some sample results of a couple > variables i used to simulate a slashdotting: > Way cool Dan! It's good to know that evolt would stand up to a slashdotting better than most. <-- begin gushing // Dan, I think now is a good time to publicly extend my deep appreciation for your efforts over the years. Without your involvement in particular, evolt could not have become what it is today. Of course, evolt is a community -- not a one man show. Many people have contributed time, effort, and money to help make evolt happen. My thanks also go out to those people. // end gushing --> -Bruce From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Fri Oct 19 18:16:00 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Fri Oct 19 18:16:00 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) In-Reply-To: <3BD043F7.4000403@heerssen.com> References: <3BCFAB3C.7060704@starkmedia.com> <3BD043F7.4000403@heerssen.com> Message-ID: <20011020001853.4587b205.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:17:11 -0400, Bruce Heerssen wrote: > Of course, evolt is a community -- not a one man show. Many people > have contributed time, effort, and money to help make evolt happen. > My thanks also go out to those people. +100 Big hug for the family... cos thats what we are. G. "no... I'm not drunk... why do you ask?" -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 20 04:02:56 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Oct 20 04:02:56 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) Message-ID: Garrett Coakley wrote on 20/10/01 1:18 am >G. "no... I'm not drunk... why do you ask?" cos at 1.18am on a Sat morning, you should be coming back from the pub... Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Sat Oct 20 08:34:26 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:34:26 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011020143709.39d281a5.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:03:59 +0100, Martin wrote: > cos at 1.18am on a Sat morning, you should be coming > back from the pub... Damn.. busted! Sorry about that folks.. won't happen again, promise A very sheepish feeling G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 20 08:37:16 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:37:16 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) In-Reply-To: <20011020143709.39d281a5.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> Message-ID: Some of us are up with infants at that time... :-) Thanks, Ron White -----Original Message----- From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Garrett Coakley Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 10:37 AM To: thesite at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:03:59 +0100, Martin wrote: > cos at 1.18am on a Sat morning, you should be coming > back from the pub... Damn.. busted! Sorry about that folks.. won't happen again, promise A very sheepish feeling G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ _______________________________________________ For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite From lbenne01 at tufts.edu Sat Oct 20 11:28:07 2001 From: lbenne01 at tufts.edu (Louis P Bennett) Date: Sat Oct 20 11:28:07 2001 Subject: Thanks Dan (was: Re: [thesite] if anyones bored..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Some of us are up with infants at that time... :-) others of us are still at work. (-: -louis > > cos at 1.18am on a Sat morning, you should be coming > > back from the pub... > >Damn.. busted! > >Sorry about that folks.. won't happen again, promise From joshua at alphashop.com Sat Oct 20 11:47:24 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Sat Oct 20 11:47:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <00c901c15988$32c91db0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> : any reasons other than to get a comparison? if so, i don't see the point. : the comparison won't be fair because the php version won't have all the : architectural underpinnings to process that the coldfusion one currently : has. Underpinnings aside, a huge majority of the time spend on rendering the homepage falls into two tasks: 1. Querying the information 2. Generating the screen display With the current Evolt CMS I know that there are a few items that happen with every page request (such as session state management, 404 management, etc), and I'm sure you could isolate how long those items are taking to complete and remove them from the comparison. Part of me is convinced that a PHP version of the homepage might run a whole lot faster than the CF version that's there now. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that evolt change platforms, but lately I have been having doubts as to CF's processing power, but I do not know enough PHP to make that version myself. -joshua in order to get a fair comparison you'd have to write a php version of : the evolt.org cms we have now. simply writing up a couple of test pages : that hit the db in the same way isn't going to give you any comparative : benchmarks to work from. : : just my 2?, : : .jeff From jeff at members.evolt.org Sat Oct 20 14:10:38 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Sat Oct 20 14:10:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <00c901c15988$32c91db0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > Underpinnings aside, a huge majority of the time spend > on rendering the homepage falls into two tasks: > > 1. Querying the information > 2. Generating the screen display ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, in general terms, that's what a huge majority of time of *any* page is spent doing. getting more specific though is identifying what's being queried and generating display on the screen. some of the time incurred in rendering the homepage is time spent also rendering other pages on the site. there also the time penalties for includes and custom tags that would need to be accounted for as well as all the calculations that happen in application.cfm for each request. in order for it to be a fair comparison it couldn't be the current cms versus a flat page request. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > With the current Evolt CMS I know that there are a few > items that happen with every page request (such as > session state management, 404 management, etc), and I'm > sure you could isolate how long those items are taking > to complete and remove them from the comparison. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< simply calculating their impact on the total and then taking the different as the processing time for the rest would be naive. there's no telling how much the time of the remainder would be affected if the portions removed from the total time never took place to begin with. for example, there's lots of calculations for session state management that happens in application.cfm. that's there so that content display can make choices about what's displayed to the end user with respect to their level of authorization. in order for it to be a fair comparison, the php version would need to do this as well. these sorts of dependencies are throughout the site. that's why simply making a php page that queries the information and renders it onscreen wouldn't be a valid comparison. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Part of me is convinced that a PHP version of the > homepage might run a whole lot faster than the CF > version that's there now. Mind you, I'm not suggesting > that evolt change platforms, but lately I have been > having doubts as to CF's processing power, but I do > not know enough PHP to make that version myself. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the total processing time is not the total equation for the power of an application server. you must also take into account the speed with which you can develop and maintain the application. while php may win the rendering time race, i'm quite certain it would lose the development and maintenance time races -- especially where less experienced developers (cf or php) are concerned. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From joshua at alphashop.com Sat Oct 20 19:00:53 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Sat Oct 20 19:00:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <00e301c159c4$c20b0a10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" Subject: RE: [thesite] if anyones bored.. : joshua, : : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : > From: Joshua Olson : > : > Underpinnings aside, a huge majority of the time spend : > on rendering the homepage falls into two tasks: : > : > 1. Querying the information : > 2. Generating the screen display : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : : well, in general terms, that's what a huge majority of time of *any* page is : spent doing. getting more specific though is identifying what's being : queried and generating display on the screen. "identifying what's being queried"? What does this mean, and why are you point it out? Is it slow? : some of the time incurred in : rendering the homepage is time spent also rendering other pages on the site. This does not make sense to me. : there also the time penalties for includes and custom tags that would need : to be accounted for as well as all the calculations that happen in : application.cfm for each request. Why do you need to account for time spent in custom tags? Custom tags are slow, and I'd bet that the PHP counterpart is much faster. : in order for it to be a fair comparison it couldn't be the current cms versus a flat page request. Why not? Just make sure the PHP version produces the same results based on the input. Why would this not be fair? : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : > With the current Evolt CMS I know that there are a few : > items that happen with every page request (such as : > session state management, 404 management, etc), and I'm : > sure you could isolate how long those items are taking : > to complete and remove them from the comparison. : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : : simply calculating their impact on the total and then taking the different : as the processing time for the rest would be naive. there's no telling how : much the time of the remainder would be affected if the portions removed : from the total time never took place to begin with. Fine, whatever. : for example, there's lots of calculations for session state management that : happens in application.cfm. that's there so that content display can make : choices about what's displayed to the end user with respect to their level : of authorization. in order for it to be a fair comparison, the php version : would need to do this as well. Okay, agreed... : these sorts of dependencies are throughout the site. that's why simply : making a php page that queries the information and renders it onscreen : wouldn't be a valid comparison. Huh? The dependencies you are talking about are O(1) in most cases. That means, each page request, no matter what is requested, is affected the same by these dependencies. I want to see if PHP would run these "dependencies" faster. I'd bet they will. : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : > Part of me is convinced that a PHP version of the : > homepage might run a whole lot faster than the CF : > version that's there now. Mind you, I'm not suggesting : > that evolt change platforms, but lately I have been : > having doubts as to CF's processing power, but I do : > not know enough PHP to make that version myself. : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< : the total processing time is not the total equation for the power of an : application server. you must also take into account the speed with which : you can develop and maintain the application. while php may win the : rendering time race, i'm quite certain it would lose the development and : maintenance time races -- especially where less experienced developers (cf : or php) are concerned. Ok, so this begs a question for everybody: Raise your hand if you have mastered CF and feel comfortable making serious changes to the current system? Does anyone other than jeff and a select few truly understand SSURL and the architecture? Not trying to attach you, jeff, but you stepped up to bat. I know the limitations of the current architecture just as you do, and I've become very disenchanted with CF's string handling and rendering time of HTML. I *hope* all this changes with CF 5.0, but so far I'm not impressed. -joshua From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Oct 20 22:41:09 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Oct 20 22:41:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <00e301c159c4$c20b0a10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <3BD244C0.8060100@starkmedia.com> Joshua Olson wrote: > : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : > Part of me is convinced that a PHP version of the > : > homepage might run a whole lot faster than the CF > : > version that's there now. Mind you, I'm not suggesting > : > that evolt change platforms, but lately I have been > : > having doubts as to CF's processing power, but I do > : > not know enough PHP to make that version myself. > : ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i've been thinking the same things lately as well.. > : the total processing time is not the total equation for the power of an > : application server. you must also take into account the speed with which > : you can develop and maintain the application. while php may win the > : rendering time race, i'm quite certain it would lose the development and > : maintenance time races -- especially where less experienced developers (cf > : or php) are concerned. > > Ok, so this begs a question for everybody: > > Raise your hand if you have mastered CF and feel comfortable making serious > changes to the current system? Does anyone other than jeff and a select few > truly understand SSURL and the architecture? > > Not trying to attach you, jeff, but you stepped up to bat. I know the > limitations of the current architecture just as you do, and I've become very > disenchanted with CF's string handling and rendering time of HTML. I *hope* > all this changes with CF 5.0, but so far I'm not impressed. +1 - i read their piece about CF5 performance that someone mentioned on thelist. while i have seen nominal improvments in the benchmarks i ran on 4.5 vs 5.0 so far, its nothing earth shattering. most of the big improvments touted in 5.0 only seem to come on 4-way CPU boxes. which is great. if we had a 4 CPU box.. just some shit i've been thinking, so take it as you will - *but* it sucks that we have to wait for a person to donate a new version of the software our site runs on.. i was asking myself this weekend, "what if someone *didnt* donate that, how long would we have had to wait for a new version of CF to get all these benefits?" we obviously can't afford it on our own ;) i also think a lot more people here *and* on thelist would contribute code(if you think about it, there are only about 3, maybe four of us(jeff, me, josh, matt) that contribute right now). and we get a lot of shit done between us 4, but i think a lot of people that have PHP skills are sitting here on their hands waiting to contribute.. maybe i'm wrong, but thats the feelign i got from 3 other people who are on this list and were at codefest last weekend.. also, having to alter *every* m.e.o account that uses PHP(80% of them) after installing CF5 so they'd point to the right mysql.sock file was pretty discouraging. it had to be changed, becuase CF is only configured to look for that file in one place(/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock) and you couldn't configure it to look anywhere else. i *do* like CF a lot. its easy for me, i can understand it. its easy for jeff(understatement) too, and we're the top two people that work on the weo code, so it makes sense i guess.. i have been wondering though how many people would choose to contribute if our site was based in a language that more than 2-4 people had a good understanding of. anyways, thtas just my little opinion and thoughts :) i would like to say though that my PHP skills are getting 313373 ;) .djc. From lbenne01 at tufts.edu Sat Oct 20 22:46:10 2001 From: lbenne01 at tufts.edu (Louis P Bennett) Date: Sat Oct 20 22:46:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD244C0.8060100@starkmedia.com> References: <00e301c159c4$c20b0a10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> <3BD244C0.8060100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: >i also think a lot more people here *and* on thelist would >contribute code(if you think about it, there are only about 3, maybe >four of us(jeff, me, josh, matt) that contribute right now). and we >get a lot of shit done between us 4, but i think a lot of people >that have PHP skills are sitting here on their hands waiting to >contribute.. maybe i'm wrong, but thats the feelign i got from 3 >other people who are on this list and were at codefest last weekend.. +1 i'd love to contribute, but b/c i don't know coldfusion, i'll have to learn it before i can contribute effectively. learning another language is generally a pain when you're doing both classes and a job full-time. doing a little work on the side, though, ain't so bad. my two cents. -louis From mwarden at mattwarden.com Sun Oct 21 02:00:38 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sun Oct 21 02:00:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD244C0.8060100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: On Oct 20, Daniel J. Cody had something to say about Re: [thesite] if... >i also think a lot more people here *and* on thelist would contribute >code(if you think about it, there are only about 3, maybe four of >us(jeff, me, josh, matt) that contribute right now). and we get a lot of AND, I would have NEVER touched CF if I didn't have to in order to work on the evolt code. I've never used it anywhere else and don't plan to. It just do it for me... dunno why. Just thought I'd throw that out there... >i would like to say though that my PHP skills are getting 313373 ;) hmmm... but your h4x0r sp3oll1ng sk1llz are quite sub-par. In fact, upon further consideration: WTF! 313373? eieele. eleete. i give up... ;-) -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 21 03:27:47 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Sun Oct 21 03:27:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <00e301c159c4$c20b0a10$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > : well, in general terms, that's what a huge majority > : of time of *any* page is spent doing. getting more > : specific though is identifying what's being queried > : and generating display on the screen. > > "identifying what's being queried"? What does this > mean, and why are you point it out? Is it slow? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm talking about the sidebar (which is built for *every* page request) versus the main content area. there are now a ton of queries necessary to render any given page. there are definitely some things that could be done to improve this situation alone. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : some of the time incurred in rendering the homepage > : is time spent also rendering other pages on the site. > > This does not make sense to me. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< see above. does that make more sense now? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : there also the time penalties for includes and custom > : tags that would need to be accounted for as well as > : all the calculations that happen in application.cfm > : for each request. > > Why do you need to account for time spent in custom > tags? Custom tags are slow, and I'd bet that the PHP > counterpart is much faster. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i agree. the php counterpart probably is much faster. i'm also sure, using cf5, most of these custom tags could be replaced by user-defined functions making the impact of the calculations these custom tags perform next to nothing. however, in order for it to be a fair comparison, it'd have to be a feature-for-feature match. a flat page versus a feature-rich cms (and the performance you take for those features) isn't a fair comparison. unless you use a completely different application architecture, you'll still have to deal with php includes and their requisite performance hit. again, for it to be a fair comparison, the php version of the cms would have to be implemented in a similar fashion. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : in order for it to be a fair comparison it couldn't > : be the current cms versus a flat page request. > > Why not? Just make sure the PHP version produces the > same results based on the input. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that's all i'm saying. make it produce the same results, across the board. this goes back to what i was saying though -- a fair comparison would require the entire cms be written in php to be functionally identical. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > : these sorts of dependencies are throughout the site. > : that's why simply making a php page that queries the > : information and renders it onscreen wouldn't be a > : valid comparison. > > Huh? The dependencies you are talking about are O(1) > in most cases. That means, each page request, no > matter what is requested, is affected the same by > these dependencies. I want to see if PHP would run > these "dependencies" faster. I'd bet they will. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm not doubting that they could. all i'm saying is that they have to be there in the php version for an accurate comparison. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Ok, so this begs a question for everybody: > > Raise your hand if you have mastered CF and feel > comfortable making serious changes to the current > system? Does anyone other than jeff and a select > few truly understand SSURL and the architecture? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< which begs an alternate question -- would it help everyone understand it better if it were in another language? i highly doubt it. it's a complex architecture. if you're not experienced in the language the application is built with, you're not likely to understand the complexities of it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not trying to attach you, jeff, but you stepped up to > bat. I know the limitations of the current architecture > just as you do, and I've become very disenchanted with > CF's string handling and rendering time of HTML. I > *hope* all this changes with CF 5.0, but so far I'm not > impressed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sorry to say, but changing languages won't make it easier for more people to understand. it will only change the group of "experts" that are comfortable making changes to the application. as for limitations of the current architecture, there have been a ton of things learned about this architecture since we built this version of the cms about a year ago. there are also a bunch of efficiencies we can take advantage of in cf 5.0. additionally, there are things about the cms that we understand much better now and could change in it to make it more efficient. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 21 03:46:38 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Sun Oct 21 03:46:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD244C0.8060100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > i also think a lot more people here *and* on thelist > would contribute code(if you think about it, there are > only about 3, maybe four of us(jeff, me, josh, matt) > that contribute right now). and we get a lot of shit > done between us 4, but i think a lot of people that > have PHP skills are sitting here on their hands waiting > to contribute.. maybe i'm wrong, but thats the feelign > i got from 3 other people who are on this list and were > at codefest last weekend.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< so you think there are enough people willing to contribute code over the long haul (not just the initial honeymoon stage) to offset the loss of 4 people that currently "get a lot of shit done"? and you think these people that are willing to contribute are on par experience and talent wise with those that'd be replaced? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > also, having to alter *every* m.e.o account that uses > PHP(80% of them) after installing CF5 so they'd point > to the right mysql.sock file was pretty discouraging. > it had to be changed, becuase CF is only configured to > look for that file in one place(/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock) > and you couldn't configure it to look anywhere else. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't know jack about linux, but couldn't you do something like a symlink (is that what it's called?) or something to the place cf is configured to look? something like this? ln -s /tmp/mysql.sock /var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock what i'm getting at is there are always going to be snags when installing software. either you can change it, but you don't have time to figure out how or you can't which means you gotta make changes somewhere else to account for it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i would like to say though that my PHP skills are > getting 313373 ;) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< unfortunately mine aren't and they won't be getting honed any time soon with a baby due any day now. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From roselli at earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 09:24:49 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sun Oct 21 09:24:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Theforum -- set up, go join Message-ID: <3BD2A262.22664.5D18D8E5@localhost> those who've read dan's blog, or otherwise been privvy to the dicussions of late on long-termn planning for evolt.org may be happy to know that a list is in place to do just that... just because i am the list administrator does not mean i'll be arbitrating or un-biased, or even the one in charge... so suck it up and go join... conversation will start after i see most everyone has joined who have interest in this topic -- or maybe sooner... http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/theforum From djc at starkmedia.com Sun Oct 21 21:56:02 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sun Oct 21 21:56:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD38BB5.5080004@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > i'm talking about the sidebar (which is built for *every* page request) > versus the main content area. there are now a ton of queries necessary to > render any given page. there are definitely some things that could be done > to improve this situation alone. for our major pages(article, front page) the majority of query rendering time isn't fromt the sidebar queries though(at most they take about 5-20ms a piece). improving those queries wouldn't really improve the overall performance of the front or article pages.. > however, in order for it to be a fair comparison, it'd have to be a > feature-for-feature match. a flat page versus a feature-rich cms (and the > performance you take for those features) isn't a fair comparison. unless > you use a completely different application architecture, you'll still have > to deal with php includes and their requisite performance hit. again, for > it to be a fair comparison, the php version of the cms would have to be > implemented in a similar fashion. on the outside, that seems like a good call. i was talking toa couple people tonite while watching the packer game(doh. :( ) and alot of the things we 'hacked' in CF to get the SSURL scheme working(for example) would be an easy thing to do with PHP, like d.e.o. we had to pull a lot of cool, funky hacks to get that working with CF. its actually pretty easy to do that specific feature with a more open language though like PHP. thats just one example btw :) > that's all i'm saying. make it produce the same results, across the board. > this goes back to what i was saying though -- a fair comparison would > require the entire cms be written in php to be functionally identical. well if it produced the same results, whats the big deal? we wouldn't need or probably want a alphaboxcontroller.cfm file serving everything just to get SSURLS. if we could get similar results without all the hacks, thats a good thing, no? > which begs an alternate question -- would it help everyone understand it > better if it were in another language? i highly doubt it. it's a complex > architecture. if you're not experienced in the language the application is > built with, you're not likely to understand the complexities of it. it may not help people understand it if it were in a different language, but the fact is, there are a lot more people that know PHP here. also, as explained above, it wouldn't take hardcore hacks with a language like PHP to achieve the same results.. the PHP arch. wouldn't have to be *SO* complicated. because of that, more people - with an intermediate knowledge of PHP - would understand it and could make contributions > sorry to say, but changing languages won't make it easier for more people to > understand. it will only change the group of "experts" that are comfortable > making changes to the application. no, it won't make it easier for everyone to understand. the point is the group of experts would expand beyond 2 people. > as for limitations of the current architecture, there have been a ton of > things learned about this architecture since we built this version of the > cms about a year ago. there are also a bunch of efficiencies we can take > advantage of in cf 5.0. additionally, there are things about the cms that > we understand much better now and could change in it to make it more > efficient. what what and what? :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Sun Oct 21 22:11:52 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sun Oct 21 22:11:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD38F6A.8000003@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>From: Daniel J. Cody >> >>i also think a lot more people here *and* on thelist >>would contribute code(if you think about it, there are >>only about 3, maybe four of us(jeff, me, josh, matt) >>that contribute right now). and we get a lot of shit >>done between us 4, but i think a lot of people that >>have PHP skills are sitting here on their hands waiting >>to contribute.. maybe i'm wrong, but thats the feelign >>i got from 3 other people who are on this list and were >>at codefest last weekend.. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > so you think there are enough people willing to contribute code over the > long haul (not just the initial honeymoon stage) to offset the loss of 4 > people that currently "get a lot of shit done"? and you think these people > that are willing to contribute are on par experience and talent wise with > those that'd be replaced? yes, yes, and yes. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>also, having to alter *every* m.e.o account that uses >>PHP(80% of them) after installing CF5 so they'd point >>to the right mysql.sock file was pretty discouraging. >>it had to be changed, becuase CF is only configured to >>look for that file in one place(/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock) >>and you couldn't configure it to look anywhere else. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > i don't know jack about linux, but couldn't you do something like a symlink > (is that what it's called?) or something to the place cf is configured to > look? something like this? > > ln -s /tmp/mysql.sock /var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock ya, hi. of course i tried that. thankfully, linux has a strong enough security backbone where thats not allowed. heres why: ln -s /tmp/mysql.sock /home/djc/hackmysql.sock all the sudden, i can read the contents of that unix socket. second, even if it were possible, you can't just symlink socket files. obviously, a bad idea. my point was that this should be a confiurable thing. only the RedHat RPM file puts that file in /var/lib/mysql. you're screwed if you have a default MySQL install on anything but redhat(Caldera, SuSe, Debian). why should i have to hack around CF just to get it to work? its seriously counter-intuitive and one of my major problems with CF lately(Rearrange your system to work with how we think it should. Macromedia, the company that has about 3 people that know Linux. ahem.). its either 'their' way, or the hard way. if they want to impose that kind of shit on people, they should've stayed in the win32 market. people that work with linux systems expect to able to change a thing here or there. whether thats where a socket file for a DB driver sits, or how many times you have to click 'OK' to add a datasource. sorry, its a bit outside our converstation, but something i've been thinking about, take it as you will :) > what i'm getting at is there are always going to be snags when installing > software. either you can change it, but you don't have time to figure out > how or you can't which means you gotta make changes somewhere else to > account for it. sure. you shouldn't have to rework the basis of your DB connectivity across the board to accomdate CF though. thats all i'm saying. .djc. From martin at members.evolt.org Sun Oct 21 22:53:54 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sun Oct 21 22:53:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. Message-ID: <0389a10550316a1PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 22/10/01 4:15 am >> what i'm getting at is there are always going to be snags when installing >> software. either you can change it, but you don't have time to figure out >> how or you can't which means you gotta make changes somewhere else to >> account for it. > > >sure. you shouldn't have to rework the basis of your DB connectivity >across the board to accomdate CF though. thats all i'm saying. And doubly so if it changes between CF versions... Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at triplezero.com.au Mon Oct 22 01:00:49 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon Oct 22 01:00:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] layout issues in mac ie4.01 Message-ID: Hey, Someone passed on some issues when viewing the evolt.org site within Mac IE4.01. I've put the supplied screenshots (PNGs) online in a zip file: http://members.evolt.org/isaac/evolt/macshots.zip Does anyone responsible for the HTML/CSS/compliance, or who has Mac IE4.01, want to take a look? Thanks, isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 01:55:19 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 01:55:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] layout issues in mac ie4.01 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Isaac Forman > > Someone passed on some issues when viewing the > evolt.org site within Mac IE4.01. > > I've put the supplied screenshots (PNGs) online in a > zip file: > > http://members.evolt.org/isaac/evolt/macshots.zip > > Does anyone responsible for the HTML/CSS/compliance, > or who has Mac IE4.01, want to take a look? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the .zip file seems to be messed up. i can't extract anything from it. all i get is an error about 5 bytes missing or something. could you try uploading it again? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 02:00:15 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 22 02:00:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] layout issues in mac ie4.01 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the .zip file seems to be messed up. i can't extract anything > from it. all > i get is an error about 5 bytes missing or something. could you try > uploading it again? i'll email you offlist and you can put it up on your space. anytime i try ftp'ing something over a certain size to members.evolt.org, it fucks up. i never have that problem anywhere else, so i don't know what to do about fixing it. i From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 02:03:49 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 02:03:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD38BB5.5080004@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > i'm talking about the sidebar (which is built for > > *every* page request) versus the main content area. > > there are now a ton of queries necessary to render > > any given page. there are definitely some things > > that could be done to improve this situation alone. > > for our major pages(article, front page) the majority > of query rendering time isn't fromt the sidebar queries > though(at most they take about 5-20ms a piece). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 5-20ms a piece for a bunch of queries adds up quickly. at my count, the execution times for queries and includes for the sidebar total about 700-750 milliseconds. that's longer than it needs to be. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > improving those queries wouldn't really improve the > overall performance of the front or article pages.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i agree in principle. if you've got a front page that takes about 8000-9000 milliseconds to execute, cutting a couple hundred milliseconds from the overall processing time won't really make much of a difference. however, it's this sort of thinking that has caused the entire site to slow down so much. for example, why is it taking over 7000 milliseconds to join 3 relatively small tables and return a query resultset just over 700? that's absolutely ridiculous. solve that and you've solved 90% of the time wasted rendering the homepage. here's a question, if we're only showing ten rows at a time on the homepage, why is the blockfactor so high? also, why isn't that homepage query cached so we're not running it *every* time someone navigates to the next n results? just as an example, using the cachedwithin attribute of the tag that pulls the articles for the homepage reduced the processing time to just over 1000 milliseconds. that seems to be a much more realistic time. something really needs to be done about that query though with regard to the initial hit which will still take a long time for visitors to the site when there isn't a version of that specific sql in cache. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > on the outside, that seems like a good call. i was > talking toa couple people tonite while watching the > packer game(doh. :( ) and alot of the things we 'hacked' > in CF to get the SSURL scheme working(for example) > would be an easy thing to do with PHP, like d.e.o. we > had to pull a lot of cool, funky hacks to get that > working with CF. its actually pretty easy to do that > specific feature with a more open language though like > PHP. thats just one example btw :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and? what we knew at the time when the foundation for v2 was developed involved these hacks you mention. and there's not "a lot" of them, only a few. knowing what i know now about how to accomplish the same thing does *not* require the sort of hacks you're referring to (not anymore than is required in php anyway). however, that's a moot point cause the hacks you mention aren't where the inefficiencies in the site are. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > well if it produced the same results, whats the big > deal? we wouldn't need or probably want a > alphaboxcontroller.cfm file serving everything just to > get SSURLS. if we could get similar results without all > the hacks, thats a good thing, no? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< first of all, these hacks you keep referring to are no longer necessary with what i've learned about implementing sites using directory-style query strings. since the architecture i put in place which required the alphaboxcontroller.cfm file was never used properly, there's really no need to keep using that file. so, what i'm saying is we can get the same results we're getting now (albeit more efficiently) without the hacks and still use coldfusion. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > it may not help people understand it if it were in a > different language, but the fact is, there are a lot > more people that know PHP here. also, as explained > above, it wouldn't take hardcore hacks with a language > like PHP to achieve the same results.. the PHP arch. > wouldn't have to be *SO* complicated. because of that, > more people - with an intermediate knowledge of PHP - > would understand it and could make contributions ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ok, now they're hardcore hacks. i give up. you talk about the complication of the architecture. this actually has very little to do with using directory-style urls. it's designed so that it's highly modular and can be worked on by multiple people without stepping on each others toes. it's also designed to afford multiple types of displays of the same content very easily. doing so creates complexity in the architecture. you're not going to get away from this in php unless you either (purposely?) don't take these things into account when building it or introduce lots of redundant code into the application making it very difficult to maintain/update. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > sorry to say, but changing languages won't make it > > easier for more people to understand. it will only > > change the group of "experts" that are comfortable > > making changes to the application. > > no, it won't make it easier for everyone to > understand. the point is the group of experts > would expand beyond 2 people. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i didn't use the word "everyone". i said "more people". beyond 2 eh? i don't even know what to say to that it's so silly. there are most definitely more than 2 people on this list that have some degree of comfort with working with the cf source code. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > as for limitations of the current architecture, there > > have been a ton of things learned about this > > architecture since we built this version of the cms > > about a year ago. there are also a bunch of > > efficiencies we can take advantage of in cf 5.0. > > additionally, there are things about the cms that we > > understand much better now and could change in it to > > make it more efficient. > > what what and what? :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, for starters, we could use a user-defined function to perform the tasks of the uta custom tag. we could do the same for the pageresults custom tag. we could be a crapload more careful about how we read/write session variables. we could get more vigilant about the queries that are run on the site, caching as many as possible. just as an experiment i went through application.cfm, the homepage application, and the includes in the sidebar and took a look at making everything more efficient without removing any of the existing functionality. by keeping the number of queries that are run to a bare minimum (yes there were several instances where there were queries being run for absolutely no reason or being run to keep errors from occurring when the logic surrounding the bit of display that was error needed to be corrected instead), caching as many of the queries as was practical, and a few other tweaks and i was able to cut the processing time for the homepage by ***95%***. it's now from an average of 8000-9000 milliseconds down to about 450 milliseconds on all but the initial request (when no queries are currently in memory). maybe i'm biased, but i'd say that's a huge improvement. don't go trashing the application server because it's not as fast as you'd like when there's *lots* of room for improvement in the code. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 02:09:28 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 02:09:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] layout issues in mac ie4.01 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: isaac > > i'll email you offlist and you can put it up on your > space. anytime i try ftp'ing something over a certain > size to members.evolt.org, it fucks up. i never have > that problem anywhere else, so i don't know what to > do about fixing it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no problem. you can now find the .zip file at: http://members.evolt.org/jeff/evolt_screengrabs_under_mac_ie_401.zip thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 02:18:49 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 02:18:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD38F6A.8000003@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > so you think there are enough people willing to > > contribute code over the long haul (not just the > > initial honeymoon stage) to offset the loss of 4 > > people that currently "get a lot of shit done"? > > and you think these people that are willing to > > contribute are on par experience and talent wise > > with those that'd be replaced? > > yes, yes, and yes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< how long do you suppose it'd take to build a bugfree php version of the cms with the exact same functionality? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i don't know jack about linux, but couldn't you do > > something like a symlink (is that what it's called?) > > or something to the place cf is configured to look? > > something like this? > > > > ln -s /tmp/mysql.sock /var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock > > ya, hi. of course i tried that. thankfully, linux has > a strong enough security backbone where thats not > allowed. heres why: > > ln -s /tmp/mysql.sock /home/djc/hackmysql.sock > > all the sudden, i can read the contents of that > unix socket. second, even if it were possible, > you can't just symlink socket files. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< hmmm, interesting. all the articles i was reading last night about mysql were saying to do exactly that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] my point was that this should be a confiurable > thing. only the RedHat RPM file puts that file in > /var/lib/mysql. you're screwed if you have a default > MySQL install on anything but redhat(Caldera, SuSe, > Debian). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< uh, isn't that basically the list of supported linux variants? if so, at least coldfusion is installing it where it's most likely already installed. i'm not saying it's not a headache that you can't change it, only that at least they put some thought about where it's most likely going to go. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] (Rearrange your system to work with how we think > it should. Macromedia, the company that has about 3 > people that know Linux. ahem.). its either 'their' > way, or the hard way. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< exaggerations about the number of people at macromedia that know linux, can you not at least see my point that they made an effort to have cf server look where the distros they support are most likely to install the .sock file? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > people that work with linux systems expect to able to > change a thing here or there. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and people that work with linux should expect to not get it the way they want all the time. *grin* ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > sure. you shouldn't have to rework the basis of your > DB connectivity across the board to accomdate CF > though. thats all i'm saying. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< fair enough. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 02:59:52 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 22 02:59:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > how long do you suppose it'd take to build a bugfree php version > of the cms with the exact same functionality? This reminded me of: Things You Should Never Do, Part I http://www.joelonsoftware.com/stories/storyReader$47 "the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make: rewrite the code from scratch" It's obviously a blanket statement, but perhaps still something to keep in mind. I don't want a rebuttal; I don't necessarily agree with it. Sometimes an application (like Netscape 4) is so pathetic that it needs to be utterly destroyed... I can understand the theoretical benefit of "more developers" with another language. But I wonder if a bunch of PHPers leave, and some ASPers arrive, would we drop our PHP version of the site (alongside the CF version), and recode it from scratch in ASP? Is the demand for new features on WEO so huge that we need to reconsider our application server (a pretty substantial decision)? I looked through the unimplemented features left over from codefest that required CF, and it didn't seem all that huge. If we have a serious need for CF ability, have we specifically asked for that help on thelist (I haven't seen it happen), or on thesite? If we have a surplass of PHP volunteers, could we start by recoding something like AEO or the voting application, etc? If the issue is the cost of CF upgrades, have we asked Macromedia for a donation or other support? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From simondl at epic.co.uk Mon Oct 22 09:41:52 2001 From: simondl at epic.co.uk (Simon Dell) Date: Mon Oct 22 09:41:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] here's an annoying first message.. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011022152931.02ed9d10@post.epic.co.uk> hi folks, boys, girls, people of mixed and indeterminate gender and other lifeforms able to consume the data held within.. i'm simon, or "kidninjah" and i'm sorta new to the list, though i've been signed up to evolt for years now... seb, one of the admin dudes, knows me pretty well, but i doubt anyone else does. this is just a little message to serve two purposes: to indroduce myself to the lists (yeah, i signed up to all of 'em!) and to check that i'm signed up ok. cheeky, i know.. sorry :-P so, here i am looking foraward to reading all the chatty, techie and useful things you all post and i hope i have something to contribute. kidninjah From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 22 10:42:39 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 22 10:42:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD43E54.1010205@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > 5-20ms a piece for a bunch of queries adds up quickly. > > at my count, the execution times for queries and includes for the sidebar > total about 700-750 milliseconds. that's longer than it needs to be. no shit? i'm seeing 98 msecs for every query except the main one. http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/frontpage.html > much. for example, why is it taking over 7000 milliseconds to join 3 > relatively small tables and return a query resultset just over 700? that's good question. again, i'm seeing about 3000msecs for that query though.. > absolutely ridiculous. solve that and you've solved 90% of the time wasted > rendering the homepage. here's a question, if we're only showing ten rows > at a time on the homepage, why is the blockfactor so high? also, why isn't we're only showing 10 rows, but we're still getting all articles, no? > first of all, these hacks you keep referring to are no longer necessary with > what i've learned about implementing sites using directory-style query > strings. since the architecture i put in place which required the > alphaboxcontroller.cfm file was never used properly, there's really no need > to keep using that file. sorry, i didn't know that.. > you talk about the complication of the architecture. this actually has very > little to do with using directory-style urls. it's designed so that it's > highly modular and can be worked on by multiple people without stepping on > each others toes. i wasn't refering to its modularity and thats not really an issue. personally, i find that the complication does come from the URL scheme, but like i said at the beginning, thse are just my thoughts/opinions > don't even know what to say to that it's so silly. there are most > definitely more than 2 people on this list that have some degree of comfort > with working with the cf source code. sorry. maybe 2 was an exageration.. 4? seriously, i don't know of anyone other than me, you, josh, and matt and seth to an extent(nothing against anyone.. *sigh*).. > well, for starters, we could use a user-defined function to perform the > tasks of the uta custom tag. we could do the same for the pageresults > custom tag. we could be a crapload more careful about how we read/write > session variables. oh.. > don't go trashing the application server because it's not as fast as you'd > like when there's *lots* of room for improvement in the code. i've trashed CF before dont forget :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 22 10:48:47 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 22 10:48:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD43FC2.4020400@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > how long do you suppose it'd take to build a bugfree php version of the cms > with the exact same functionality? i dunno. i didn't know we had a bugfree version of our current CMS ;) > exaggerations about the number of people at macromedia that know linux, can > you not at least see my point that they made an effort to have cf server > look where the distros they support are most likely to install the .sock > file? yes i can see your point.. they also should have(IMO again) made an effort to make it configurable. > and people that work with linux should expect to not get it > the way they want all the time. *grin* heh. true From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 22 10:54:26 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 22 10:54:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD44115.40008@starkmedia.com> isaac wrote: > I can understand the theoretical benefit of "more developers" with another > language. But I wonder if a bunch of PHPers leave, and some ASPers arrive, > would we drop our PHP version of the site (alongside the CF version), and > recode it from scratch in ASP? i can see what you're saying, but part of it is the closed nature of CF that kinda sucks too. > Is the demand for new features on WEO so huge that we need to reconsider our > application server (a pretty substantial decision)? I looked through the > unimplemented features left over from codefest that required CF, and it > didn't seem all that huge. no, i don't thnk features had ever come in the conversatino yet.. > If we have a serious need for CF ability, have we specifically asked for > that help on thelist (I haven't seen it happen), or on thesite? > > If we have a surplass of PHP volunteers, could we start by recoding > something like AEO or the voting application, etc? we have been doing this.. dir.evolt.org and the new authenticatin schemes are bothing being done in PHP > If the issue is the cost of CF upgrades, have we asked Macromedia for a > donation or other support? i made some discreet inquires about the possibility of us getting a freebie. basically, times are tough, we need to make money on shit, and the last thing we're going to give away is our cash cow(enterprise edition) and: "We welcome donation requests from qualified non-profit organizations that service disadvantaged youth, the homeless, people with disabilities, minorities, the elderly and victims of abuse; provide disaster relief, meal service, medical and hospice care; provide education and literacy programs; support human and animal rights; support the arts; and protect the environment." so we could be a 'education program', but thats stretching it. they do have a discount program for 503's(NFPs), but we're still not officially a 503c NFP(the process can take 9-12 months). sooo.. From joshua at alphashop.com Mon Oct 22 10:55:50 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Mon Oct 22 10:55:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <3BD43E54.1010205@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <030501c15b13$2b297cd0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Just a quick question? Why IS the homepage query returning all the records, btw? Why not set the maxresults to 10 and make a second (itty bitty) query that gets the total count of records? -joshua From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 11:42:17 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 11:42:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD43E54.1010205@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > 5-20ms a piece for a bunch of queries adds up quickly. > > > > at my count, the execution times for queries and > > includes for the sidebar total about 700-750 > > milliseconds. that's longer than it needs to be. > > no shit? i'm seeing 98 msecs for every query except the > main one. > http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/frontpage.html > > > much. for example, why is it taking over 7000 > > milliseconds to join 3 relatively small tables > > and return a query resultset just over 700? that's > > good question. again, i'm seeing about 3000msecs for > that query though.. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i should have been more specific. the times i mentioned i was seeing on t.e.o. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > why is the blockfactor so high? > > we're only showing 10 rows, but we're still getting > all articles, no? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, we're getting back all articles, but only showing 10. i'm not convinced that having such a high blockfactor is a good thing, but i'm doing some tests on it right now. i'm seeing slightly better results with a blockfactor of 10. this may have something to do with the fact that we're only using 10 results at a time. this quote from allaire seems to agree -- "This should be tuned based on the expected average size of the result set." http://www.allaire.com/Handlers/index.cfm?ID=13810&Method=Full ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > you talk about the complication of the architecture. > > this actually has very little to do with using > > directory-style urls. it's designed so that it's > > highly modular and can be worked on by multiple people > > without stepping on each others toes. > > i wasn't refering to its modularity and thats not really > an issue. personally, i find that the complication does > come from the URL scheme, but like i said at the > beginning, thse are just my thoughts/opinions ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< what about the url scheme makes it more difficult. perhaps we can work on those things and make it easier to understand and work on. depending on what they are, you're likely to have those same complications in a php version as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > sorry. maybe 2 was an exageration.. 4? seriously, i > don't know of anyone other than me, you, josh, and matt > and seth to an extent(nothing against anyone.. *sigh*).. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< not active right now, but dave mccreath got pretty comfortable with it. why's isaac not in that list? i'll bet any number of coldfusion users that are currently on this list could get comfortable with it given some time. remember, you can't just walk into a big project knowing the language it's written and expect to understand the particular technique used when building it. you have to learn the original developer's style as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > don't go trashing the application server because it's > > not as fast as you'd like when there's *lots* of room > > for improvement in the code. > > i've trashed CF before dont forget :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i meant "don't go trashing" as in don't go throwing out all we've done up til now by going to a different application server. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 11:46:08 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 11:46:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <030501c15b13$2b297cd0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: joshua, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Joshua Olson > > Just a quick question? > > Why IS the homepage query returning all the records, > btw? Why not set the maxresults to 10 and make a > second (itty bitty) query that gets the total count > of records? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you mean so the prev n/next n links continue to work? that's a possibility. the only downside to that is that you won't get the benefit of the query being cached when you want to browse the records. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 11:56:54 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 11:56:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD43FC2.4020400@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > how long do you suppose it'd take to build a bugfree > > php version of the cms with the exact same > > functionality? > > i dunno. i didn't know we had a bugfree version of our > current CMS ;) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< well, relatively. it's not perfect, but it's production-tested. that's a hard thing to just give up. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > yes i can see your point.. they also should have(IMO > again) made an effort to make it configurable. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed -- even in a win32 environment. ;p .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 11:59:50 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 11:59:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD44115.40008@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > i can see what you're saying, but part of it is the > closed nature of CF that kinda sucks too. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ... which we never actually deal with on a daily basis, right? the only time the close nature of cf is a pain is during an install, upgrade, or system configuration change. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > If we have a serious need for CF ability, have we > > specifically asked for that help on thelist (I haven't > > seen it happen), or on thesite? > > > > If we have a surplass of PHP volunteers, could we > > start by recoding something like AEO or the voting > > application, etc? > > we have been doing this.. dir.evolt.org and the new > authenticatin schemes are bothing being done in PHP ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sounds like work enough to me. no sense adding the burden of a cms to that. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 22 12:15:17 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 22 12:15:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD45401.2020702@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > i should have been more specific. the times i mentioned i was seeing on > t.e.o. oh, that makes sense then.. t.e.o uses our old production DB box, which is a ton slower, obviously, than our live DB box > yes, we're getting back all articles, but only showing 10. i'm not > convinced that having such a high blockfactor is a good thing, but i'm doing > some tests on it right now. i'm seeing slightly better results with a > blockfactor of 10. this may have something to do with the fact that we're > only using 10 results at a time. this quote from allaire seems to agree -- > "This should be tuned based on the expected average size of the result set." > > http://www.allaire.com/Handlers/index.cfm?ID=13810&Method=Full i had tuned the blockfactor based on how fast it was pulling results from the *live* DB, not the test one. we shouldn't tune our test site up like that, cus it will slow our live site down. and i remember seeing somewhere that the optimum MacroMedia Official Recommendation(tm) for blockfactor was something like a blockfactor of 10 for every 3.2k of data returned or something > what about the url scheme makes it more difficult. perhaps we can work on > those things and make it easier to understand and work on. depending on > what they are, you're likely to have those same complications in a php > version as well. sure, lets work on them.. all i've asked for since day 1 is a basic piece of documentation from you explaining how it works for our site > not active right now, but dave mccreath got pretty comfortable with it. > why's isaac not in that list? i'll bet any number of coldfusion users that > are currently on this list could get comfortable with it given some time. oh, i was talking comfortable as in actually changing cold fusion code. > i meant "don't go trashing" as in don't go throwing out all we've done up > til now by going to a different application server. ? i'm not suggesting we start throwing anything out..jeez. From r937 at interlog.com Mon Oct 22 12:28:33 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Mon Oct 22 12:28:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. Message-ID: <01c15b1e$f7091a80$054c149a@rudy> >> i'll bet any number of coldfusion users that >> are currently on this list could get comfortable with it >> given some time. > >oh, i was talking comfortable as in actually changing cold fusion code. well, sure, but changing cold fusion code ain't the tough part, i could do (and have done) that too the tough part is all the application structure -- which session variables are assumed to exist on the page, query results stored in arrays, includes all over the place, urls that are actually 404 includes... nothing is more confusing to a programmer learning an app than a page which calls another page which goes to another page which includes some other stuff... and having seen our code, i'm not too far off in describing it this way... not that this is wrong, mind you, it's just that this complexity is surely one of the main factors keeping more people from helping out -- they do not need to learn cold fusion (or if they do, they could surely make the switch from another language like php quite easily), rather they need to learn *our application* i am sure that if -- and i'm against this -- we were to re-code the entire site in php, the same sort of situation would exist rudy From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Oct 22 13:03:00 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Oct 22 13:03:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] new spidert blocks.. Message-ID: <3BD45F2C.4010801@starkmedia.com> i've increased the number of user-agents that are going to be blocked(as explained in the apache/bad robots article) to : EmailSiphon EmailWolf CherryPickerSE CherryPickerElite Crescent EmailCollector EmailSiphon MCspider bew Deweb FEZhead Fetcher Getleft GetURL HTTrack IBM_Planetwide KWebGet Monster Mirror NetCarta OpaL PackRat pavuk PushSite Rsync Shai Spegla SpiderBot SuperBot tarspider Templeton WebCopy WebFetcher WebMiner webvac webwalk w3mir XGET Wget WebReaper WUMPUS FAST-WebCrawler in the last month, these have all entered the facticious directory i set up in our robots.txt file to trap them if anyone notices anything odd give a holler :) .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 15:33:50 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 22 15:33:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <01c15b1e$f7091a80$054c149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > the tough part is all the application structure -- ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > which session variables are assumed to exist on the > page, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< session scoped variables are treated as a structure so it should be easy enough to do a loop over that collection and output the values if there are any questions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > query results stored in arrays, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i know which query you're talking about and it's only done in one place. it's actually query results that are stored in an application scoped variable. most users working on the site should never have to bother with that. all other queries that i'm aware of are the usual that any coldfusion developer should be familiar with. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > includes all over the place, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< there really *is* some structure to the includes, i promise. i wonder if there's some way i can document it so it can be easier to understand. anybody got any ideas? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > urls that are actually 404 includes... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< when encountering the app, i can understand this tidbit being intimidating. however, once you understand how the directory style urls drive the site surely that can't be as much of an issue anymore. i mean, it's just a decision tree for nearly every directory name until you arrive at the template performing the action. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] they do not need to learn cold fusion (or if they > do, they could surely make the switch from another > language like php quite easily), rather they need to > learn *our application* ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< precisely what i've been trying to say. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i am sure that if -- and i'm against this -- we were to > re-code the entire site in php, the same sort of > situation would exist ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, exactly what i'm trying to say. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 22 17:37:05 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 22 17:37:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] Bug Fixes .. teo to weo Message-ID: <02de01c15b4a$1dbcbb20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks .... Dan, would it be possible to roll the code from teo to weo, specifically the bug fixes that Matt and Jeff did? i.e. printed version of comments and RSS/XML feeds. I dunno if that messes things up to move some stuff up to production .. just thought I'd ask. Thanks, Michele From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 22 20:03:53 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 22 20:03:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD45401.2020702@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > > not active right now, but dave mccreath got pretty comfortable with it. > > why's isaac not in that list? i'll bet any number of > coldfusion users that > > are currently on this list could get comfortable with it given > some time. > > oh, i was talking comfortable as in actually changing cold fusion code. I am comfortable changing CF code given that we have more explanation of the architecture in place. Or given that you don't mind me learning from trial and error on TEO. ;) As rudy said, I'd expect the same situation to arise if WEO was implemented with PHP. I have worked with some of jeff's code from the past (either modifying it, or rebuilding stuff from scratch) to have my own CMS(s) which are probably bug-filled, but are not entirely crap. Said CMS uses a semi-sexy URL scheme (not using 404's yet). > i can see what you're saying, but part of it is the closed nature of CF > that kinda sucks too. How does that directly effect WEO? I thought that effected the administration of the MEO space? If the closed nature of CF is having a *substantial* effect on WEO development (I've not seen evidence), I'd view PHP as a definite option. But otherwise, recoding our CMS from scratch could be a waste of time. isaac From mwarden at mattwarden.com Tue Oct 23 13:34:18 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Oct 23 13:34:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] Bug Fixes .. teo to weo In-Reply-To: <02de01c15b4a$1dbcbb20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 22, Michele Foster had something to say about [thesite] Bug Fixes ..... >Dan, would it be possible to roll the code from teo to weo, specifically the >bug fixes that Matt and Jeff did? i.e. printed version of comments and >RSS/XML feeds. if we do, my vote goes to whacking the revived article feature i did. i think it's too inefficient and it was meant as only a temp. solution anyways. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 23 15:02:46 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 23 15:02:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] Bug Fixes .. teo to weo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > if we do, my vote goes to whacking the revived article > feature i did. i think it's too inefficient and it was > meant as only a temp. solution anyways. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no worries. in trying to get t.e.o. to have some reasonable response times i've fixed the logic that "revives" an article at random. the time necessary for the two queries necessary to make this work now return an article in an acceptable time (sub 20ms in most cases). i'd say leave it in as a temporary solution until we build a better one (like a database architecture and a mechanism for priv >= 3 to select articles to be revived). thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 23 19:48:54 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 23 19:48:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD45401.2020702@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > i should have been more specific. the times i > > mentioned i was seeing on t.e.o. > > oh, that makes sense then.. t.e.o uses our old > production DB box, which is a ton slower, obviously, > than our live DB box ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yeah, i know. this is good because it exposes the inefficiencies in our code even more. fix them on t.e.o. and the improvement will be that much more on the w.e.o. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i had tuned the blockfactor based on how fast it was > pulling results from the *live* DB, not the test one. > we shouldn't tune our test site up like that, cus it > will slow our live site down. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< huh? it was set at a blockfactor of 100. i don't mean to call you a liar (and i'm not), but a blockfactor at the max doesn't much look like a tuned one. know what i mean? i'd be willing to bet that the results i was seeing with various blockfactors would hold true on w.e.o. -- 10 being the better number. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > and i remember seeing somewhere that the optimum > MacroMedia Official Recommendation(tm) for blockfactor > was something like a blockfactor of 10 for every 3.2k > of data returned or something ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< according to this article by allaire, it's suggested that the average number of rows returned should be what your blockfactor should be set to. that doesn't help us much since we're already over 700 records returned. i've done more research about blockfactor and have located the following bit of information: "Use BlockFactor with caution. You may (if your driver even supports BlockFactor) be able to significantly increase the speed of your queries by forcing the database to return many rows of data at a time instead of just one at a time (1 is the default). Just remember to count the "bytes" for every column you are expecting to grab, add them together, and then see how many complete rows you can pull at once. Keep in mind that the maximum you are allowed at one time is 32K (32,768 Bytes)." http://cfhub.com/advanced/cfquery_tag/optimization.cfm this would suggest that the blockfactor chosen is extremely critical. rather than just setting it as high as it'll go, it should be tailored to keep the amount of data coming across within the 32K limit. have any calculations handy that indicate how many rows on average that is? if not i'll be happy to do those calculations. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > oh, i was talking comfortable as in actually changing > cold fusion code. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think we need a show of hands rather than our ideas of how many people that actually is. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > ? i'm not suggesting we start throwing anything out..jeez. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ok, fair enough. thanks for coming out and saying it directly. the feeling i was getting from your side of the conversation is that you were considering tossing it out in favor of writing a php version. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From joxn at vernum.com Tue Oct 23 20:53:45 2001 From: joxn at vernum.com (Joxn) Date: Tue Oct 23 20:53:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] minor-bug at the search results Message-ID: <3BD61F08.8040106@vernum.com> Hi everybody, greetings from Australia - I am still here for the next four months and it kicks arse! Well, I am not really able to follow all the discussions on the lists as I am travelling quite a bit. I was searching for 'lynxos' on evolt.org and this was the result: <<<< search results Results for keyword lynxos: 0 Viewing results 1 to 0 on page 1 of 0. Sorry, your search did not return any results. <<<< Perhaps, it is just me, but I think either "0 to 0" or omitting this output all together (except the last line) would be better. Oh, and if you know of a browser for LynxOS, it would be great if you could email me. :) bye Joern From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 10:55:51 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:55:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: Message-ID: <3BD83603.7000100@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>i had tuned the blockfactor based on how fast it was >>pulling results from the *live* DB, not the test one. >>we shouldn't tune our test site up like that, cus it >>will slow our live site down. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > huh? it was set at a blockfactor of 100. i don't mean to call you a liar > (and i'm not), but a blockfactor at the max doesn't much look like a tuned > one. know what i mean? i'd be willing to bet that the results i was seeing > with various blockfactors would hold true on w.e.o. -- 10 being the better > number. i didn't realize it was at 100 either. FWIW, that last time i recall changing it(last winter) i set it to something like 65. at any rate, i'll take the blame > calculations handy that indicate how many rows on average that is? if not > i'll be happy to do those calculations. i'll work something out .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 10:56:35 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:56:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] [bug] minor-bug at the search results References: <3BD61F08.8040106@vernum.com> Message-ID: <3BD8362F.7070300@starkmedia.com> thanks joxn :) i'll let my filters catch it and take a look this week Joxn wrote: > Hi everybody, > greetings from Australia - I am still here for the next four months and > it kicks arse! Well, I am not really able to follow all the discussions > on the lists as I am travelling quite a bit. > > I was searching for 'lynxos' on evolt.org and this was the result: > > <<<< > search results > Results for keyword lynxos: 0 > Viewing results 1 to 0 on page 1 of 0. > > Sorry, your search did not return any results. > <<<< > > Perhaps, it is just me, but I think either "0 to 0" or omitting this > output all together (except the last line) would be better. > > Oh, and if you know of a browser for LynxOS, it would be great if you > could email me. :) > > bye Joern > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 25 11:28:53 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 25 11:28:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] [bug] minor-bug at the search results In-Reply-To: <3BD8362F.7070300@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > thanks joxn :) > > i'll let my filters catch it and take a look this week ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sorry, shoulda said something earlier. i fixed this bug when joxn's email first came through. i also updated the user page so it lists the user's priv and active flags if the user viewing the page is priv >= 3. additionally, if the user viewing the user is priv >= 4, there's an edit link that takes the user to the user edit screen where userpriv and active are now part of the user edit form. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 25 14:02:47 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 25 14:02:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] CodeFest: Updated Files and Photos Message-ID: <000701c15d87$c0cfda60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi folks, I've updated all of the CodeFest files: http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/ My photos of the event have also been added. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/CodeFest_2001/photos/index.shtml Holler if there's anything missing. Michele From elfur at elfur.is Thu Oct 25 15:02:10 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:02:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <3BD83603.7000100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <00e301c15d8f$a11d19f0$0100a8c0@DWARFS> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | i didn't realize it was at 100 either. FWIW, that last time i recall | changing it(last winter) i set it to something like 65. at any rate, | i'll take the blame nah, there's no reason to lay any blame ... let's just write it on it's time knowledge, today we know better (or rather you know better :) and thus we change the settings ... later elfur From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 15:20:31 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:20:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <3BD83603.7000100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BD8740B.40609@starkmedia.com> jeff, what file and where are you seeing the blockfactor at 100? i'm looking at the article/act_article.cfm on weo and seeing: SELECT content.contentid, content.contentname, content.body, content.synopsis, content.datemod, .... same thing on teo. where is the blockfactor set to 100? Daniel J. Cody wrote: >> huh? it was set at a blockfactor of 100. i don't mean to call you a >> liar >> (and i'm not), but a blockfactor at the max doesn't much look like a >> tuned >> one. know what i mean? i'd be willing to bet that the results i was >> seeing >> with various blockfactors would hold true on w.e.o. -- 10 being the >> better >> number. > > > > i didn't realize it was at 100 either. FWIW, that last time i recall > changing it(last winter) i set it to something like 65. at any rate, > i'll take the blame From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 15:27:22 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:27:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor, nevermind Message-ID: <3BD875A6.2070108@starkmedia.com> .. i was looking in the wrong place. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Oct 25 15:33:55 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:33:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] category descriptions References: <002b01c15429$7c130c60$4796fea9@KSCABLE.com> Message-ID: <009401c15d94$7edf7040$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Emily, Did you incorporate Rudy, Isaac, Martin's (and others?) comments into a final version of the descriptions? Also, did the last four categories get written? I don't seem to have a final version of this content anywhere. Can it be posted somewhere? Thanks, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emily Christensen" | Here are the rough drafts of seven category descriptions (I still need to | look at site development, code, visual design, and backend.) From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 15:54:47 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:54:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: <3BD875A6.2070108@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BD87C14.4050709@starkmedia.com> i just told apache to ignore the outside world for a couple minutes, restarted coldfusion, 'warmed it up', and ran another mini benchmark on w.e.o. i changed to blockfactor on our front page building query to values between 1 and 100, incrememnting by 5, and loaded each blockfactor value 3 times. (so for a blockfactor of 5 it was loaded 3 times, 50 it was loaded 3 times) took the average of those three results and heres what i came up with: bf = 1 : 3260ms bf = 5 : 2997ms bf = 10 : 3154ms bf = 15 : 3055ms bf = 20 : 3215ms bf = 25 : 2963ms bf = 30 : 3013ms bf = 35 : 2917ms bf = 40 : 2923ms bf = 45 : 3051ms bf = 50 : 2998ms bf = 55 : 2917ms bf = 60 : 3083ms bf = 65 : 3071ms bf = 70 : 3017ms bf = 75 : 2981ms bf = 80 : 2893ms bf = 85 : 2971ms bf = 90 : 2969ms bf = 95 : 2958ms cf = 100 : 3068ms a range between 70 - 100 or 35-45 looks to be best. anyways. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 25 17:13:42 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 25 17:13:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD87C14.4050709@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > a range between 70 - 100 or 35-45 looks to be best. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm actually more curious about the average number of bytes per record on the getarticles query. the more i read about blockfactor, the more i'm convinced we need to watch that 32K threshold. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 23:04:57 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 23:04:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BD8E1D9.9030805@starkmedia.com> rudy, how would we run a query to see how much data its bringing back? i'd be more interested to know about the specifics that Allaire or whoever bases these recomendations on.. e.g. is it better to go with 32K thresholds if you have 1000000 rows and a 4 way xeon box? i've tried prying these kind of details out of people like ray btw. IP, trade secrets, whatever. .. again. :) .djc. .jeff wrote: > dan, > > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>From: Daniel J. Cody >> >>a range between 70 - 100 or 35-45 looks to be best. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > i'm actually more curious about the average number of bytes per record on > the getarticles query. the more i read about blockfactor, the more i'm > convinced we need to watch that 32K threshold. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Oct 25 23:33:55 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Oct 25 23:33:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD8E1D9.9030805@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > rudy, how would we run a query to see how much data its > bringing back? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm not rudy, but i play him on a public access television program. i'd guess char_len() or something like that that would count the number of characters. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i'd be more interested to know about the specifics that > Allaire or whoever bases these recomendations on.. > > e.g. is it better to go with 32K thresholds if you have > 1000000 rows and a 4 way xeon box? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm guessing it has nothing whatsoever to do with the specifics of the database software or the power of the hardware the cf server is on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i've tried prying these kind of details out of people > like ray btw. IP, trade secrets, whatever. about closed software here> .. again. :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think your open source photon laser is mis-aimed. more likely than not the 32K limit has something to do with the communication layer between cf server and the db server, something which macrollaire has no control over. just my thoughts, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Oct 25 23:58:17 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Oct 25 23:58:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BD8EE59.3080604@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > i'd guess char_len() or something like that that would count the number of > characters. not familiar with that technique > i think your open source photon laser is mis-aimed. more likely than not > the 32K limit has something to do with the communication layer between cf > server and the db server, something which macrollaire has no control over. ok. seeing that MM(allaire) wrote the software that communicates between CF and the DB server(more speficially, the DB driver), i'd say they're very much in control of that issue. assuming CF is writtin in C, they simply wrote some lame ass function that can only handle a 32K buffer( a longint in C) at a time between their app and the driver. drivers, like the OCI8 driver, can handle *huge* amounts of data. thats why the same query in PHP is faster than CF using the same driver. thats why the same query in JSP is faster than CF using the same driver. dont try to blame it on open source. the fact is that CF isn't the best in ths area because they (maybe) had 20 people(which would be a huge amount of specific developers) working on this problem. the truth is, they're probably not the smartest 20 people in the industry in this partiuclar practice. far from it. i know you love cf and so do i. lets not blame problems of performance on us though. the fact is MM isn't the place where cutting edge, hardcore, performance code is written. that *is* their fault, and the reason a lot of people question CF in the first place. sorry i'm trashing them and shit, but a $5000 product should be about more than RAD. unfortunatly for MM, more people than me are thinking this way lately, hence the popularity of languages like PHP and JSP. .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 00:19:12 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Oct 26 00:19:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD8EE59.3080604@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > i'd guess char_len() or something like that that > > would count the number of characters. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm only guessing at the function name. there's gotta be a string length function in oracle, just apply it to every column that's being returned and sum them. SELECT Sum(Len(content.contentid) + Len(content.keyphrase) + Len(content.contentname) + Len(content.synopsis) + Len(content.datemod) + Len(content.replies) + Len(content.rating) + Len(content.ratings) + Len(users.userid) + Len(users.who) + Len(categorys.category) + Len(categorys.categoryid) + Len((SELECT Count(*) FROM replies WHERE contentid = content.contentid AND datemod > '#DateFormat(app.session.user.lastlogin)#'))) FROM content , users , categorys WHERE .... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > seeing that MM(allaire) wrote the software that > communicates between CF and the DB server(more > speficially, the DB driver), i'd say they're very > much in control of that issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that's very well a possibility. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > assuming CF is writtin in C, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think it's c++ actually, but close enough. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > they simply wrote some lame ass function that can only > handle a 32K buffer( a longint in C) at a time between > their app and the driver. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that would be quite lame. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > dont try to blame it on open source. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< uh, i don't think i did actually. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > lets not blame problems of performance on us though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< where did i say i was blaming them on us. i'm just trying to explore the issues to try to find some explanations to the things we're seeing. that's all. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > unfortunatly for MM, more people than me are thinking > this way lately, hence the popularity of languages like > PHP and JSP. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< or perhaps because alot of people can't see past the price tag and have zero ability to compare the costs long term? just my 2c, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 26 01:32:39 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 26 01:32:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BD90477.1020403@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>seeing that MM(allaire) wrote the software that >>communicates between CF and the DB server(more >>speficially, the DB driver), i'd say they're very >>much in control of that issue. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > that's very well a possibility. welllll, unless someone else wrote the code that runs CF, it isn't a possibility :) >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>they simply wrote some lame ass function that can only >>handle a 32K buffer( a longint in C) at a time between >>their app and the driver. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > that would be quite lame. aye. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>lets not blame problems of performance on us though. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > where did i say i was blaming them on us. i'm just trying to explore the > issues to try to find some explanations to the things we're seeing. that's > all. exactly. we can code our CMS perfectly. the fact is, the performance issues aren't our fault. they're MM's fault(4 pages/sec? oy.) >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>unfortunatly for MM, more people than me are thinking >>this way lately, hence the popularity of languages like >>PHP and JSP. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > or perhaps because alot of people can't see past the price tag and have zero > ability to compare the costs long term? what are the long term costs jeff? i see MM charging us(as an example) *FOUR THOUSAND* dollars just to hook up to an Oracle native driver. there is no price tag with php or jsp btw. long term? i get native oracle connectivity free. .djc. From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 02:10:14 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:10:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. Message-ID: <00e434010071aa1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 23/10/01 3:03 am >> i can see what you're saying, but part of it is the closed nature of CF >> that kinda sucks too. > >How does that directly effect WEO? I thought that effected the >administration of the MEO space? From what Dan said, it was changing all the MEO account DSNs which took the time - it would be a true royal pain to remove CF if lots of the members are using it, which we'd need to do to get the full benefit. Also, if I were the Anonymous Donor who'd just forked over a copy of CF5, I'd be *really* upset if I heard that it was about to be dumped so soon after donating it. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 02:12:22 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:12:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted Message-ID: <0143b4912071aa1PCOW034M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 26/10/01 6:02 am >sorry i'm trashing them and shit, but a $5000 product should be about >more than RAD. unfortunatly for MM, more people than me are thinking >this way lately, hence the popularity of languages like PHP and JSP. Yup, also part of why CF (and therefore Spectra) never got into the enterprise space. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 02:19:03 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:19:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD90477.1020403@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, oy, you and i are hammering people's inboxes tonight. wanna go get a drink later? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > >>lets not blame problems of performance on us though. > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > >> > > > > where did i say i was blaming them on us. i'm just > > trying to explore the issues to try to find some > > explanations to the things we're seeing. that's all. > > exactly. we can code our CMS perfectly. the fact is, > the performance issues aren't our fault. they're MM's > fault(4 pages/sec? oy.) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< actually, our cms has a lot of inefficiencies currently -- things that i've only found out *since* building v2.0. it's far from being perfect. 4 pages/sec are our fault until we've combed the code for the problem areas. speaking of that, as you see reads of session variables (session.user.priv, for example), change them to have app. prepended to them (app.session.user.priv, for example). that way we don't have to lock to read them since i'm doing a lock once and duplicating the session scope out to a structure without locking issues. writes to session variables are a different issue. we'll need to lock those writes and also write to the matching app. copy. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > or perhaps because alot of people can't see past the > > price tag and have zero ability to compare the costs > > long term? > > what are the long term costs jeff? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i can go into a long diatribe about my thoughts on the open source vs. commercial software situation. i don't think this is really the place for it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i get native oracle connectivity free. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< if you've ponied up the money for oracle how much difference would another couple grand honestly make? i'm not saying it's right, just how i see it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 26 02:20:15 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:20:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. References: <00e434010071aa1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BD90FA0.3090309@starkmedia.com> Martin wrote: >>From what Dan said, it was changing all the MEO account DSNs > which took the time - it would be a true royal pain to remove > CF if lots of the members are using it, which we'd need to do > to get the full benefit. > > Also, if I were the Anonymous Donor who'd just forked over > a copy of CF5, I'd be *really* upset if I heard that it was > about to be dumped so soon after donating it. martin, the anonymous donor didn't donate it to run evolt. they gave it for the members.evolt.org accounts. you're not the anonymous donor afaik. dont make assumptions on your perceptions of what that donor wanted please. .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 26 02:29:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:29:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BD911D1.9030701@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >>>where did i say i was blaming them on us. i'm just >>>trying to explore the issues to try to find some >>>explanations to the things we're seeing. that's all. >>> >>exactly. we can code our CMS perfectly. the fact is, >>the performance issues aren't our fault. they're MM's >>fault(4 pages/sec? oy.) >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > actually, our cms has a lot of inefficiencies currently -- things that i've > only found out *since* building v2.0. it's far from being perfect. 4 > pages/sec are our fault until we've combed the code for the problem areas. ok, so lets fix it. according to the MM whitepaper, we'll be able to get up to 6p/sec with a 4 way box(generalization). weee! a whole extra 2 pages/sec > speaking of that, as you see reads of session variables (session.user.priv, > for example), change them to have app. prepended to them > (app.session.user.priv, for example). that way we don't have to lock to > read them since i'm doing a lock once and duplicating the session scope out > to a structure without locking issues. > > writes to session variables are a different issue. we'll need to lock those > writes and also write to the matching app. copy. IMO, no matter how tightly we code our CMS, it won't scale. unless we have a couple 4 way boxes. > i can go into a long diatribe about my thoughts on the open source vs. > commercial software situation. i don't think this is really the place for > it. i'd like to hear it. post it here :) > if you've ponied up the money for oracle how much difference would another > couple grand honestly make? i'm not saying it's right, just how i see it. we didn't pony up for oracle. and a couple grand does make a difference when you're a NFP. .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 02:34:13 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:34:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD911D1.9030701@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > actually, our cms has a lot of inefficiencies > > currently -- things that i've only found out *since* > > building v2.0. it's far from being perfect. 4 > > pages/sec are our fault until we've combed the code > > for the problem areas. > > ok, so lets fix it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > IMO, no matter how tightly we code our CMS, it won't > scale. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< scale to what? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i can go into a long diatribe about my thoughts on > > the open source vs. commercial software situation. > > i don't think this is really the place for it. > > i'd like to hear it. post it here :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< another time perhaps, my fingers hurt. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > if you've ponied up the money for oracle how much > > difference would another couple grand honestly make? > > i'm not saying it's right, just how i see it. > > we didn't pony up for oracle. and a couple grand does > make a difference when you're a NFP. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i wasn't speaking about our unique situation. i was referring to the typical "let's buy some software to do business shit" sort of corporate situation. give me some more info about this oracle native driver issue. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Oct 26 02:52:29 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Oct 26 02:52:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BD9172D.9050009@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > > scale to what? more than 4pages/sec ;) > give me some more info about this oracle native driver issue. well.. you can't connect to oracle decently without native drivers. to get that connectivity, you need CF enterprise. aka $4000 .djc. From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 08:22:49 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Oct 26 08:22:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. In-Reply-To: <3BD90FA0.3090309@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3BD92B58.14022.769EEB54@localhost> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > > > Also, if I were the Anonymous Donor who'd just forked over > > a copy of CF5, I'd be *really* upset if I heard that it was > > about to be dumped so soon after donating it. > > martin, the anonymous donor didn't donate it to run evolt. they gave > it for the members.evolt.org accounts. good to know... > you're not the anonymous donor afaik. dont make assumptions on your > perceptions of what that donor wanted please. erm, that's just smart politicking... if a person donates something, and that thing gets tossed aside shortly thereafter, there is a high likelihood that said donor will be a little upset, or at the very least, won't donate again... there are times when you need to make assumptions, like when the person won't speak up and you want to *not* hurt their feelings... will that be the case? dunno... From martin at members.evolt.org Fri Oct 26 14:23:46 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Fri Oct 26 14:23:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] if anyones bored.. Message-ID: <0d6701524191aa1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Daniel J. Cody wrote on 26/10/01 8:24 am >> Also, if I were the Anonymous Donor who'd just forked over >> a copy of CF5, I'd be *really* upset if I heard that it was >> about to be dumped so soon after donating it. > > >martin, the anonymous donor didn't donate it to run evolt. they gave it >for the members.evolt.org accounts. So given that the closed source problem of CF looking in a non-configurable place is for mysql on meo, not weo: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563933.html http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563934.html what's the problem with weo? If we're only talking about dumping it for weo, you've still got that as a problem for meo. (oh, while I think about it - can we just do a double check that the license(s) we have allow us to run it on *eo, and that it's not a 1 license per box thing the way it used to be). Sure I could believe that we'd get performance gains from PHP. But I'm not sure they're worth losing the other stuff (aeo, ueue etc) whose development time doing the conversion would suck up. Unless we do get a whole bunch of extra hands on the job, but even then it would take a while. >you're not the anonymous donor afaik. dont make assumptions on your >perceptions of what that donor wanted please. Like Aard said - basic human nature. Oh, and 7 years of professional fundraising - asking for donations from individuals and organisations, nearly 4 of those years fulltime. Donor psychology is something I do know pretty well... if none of us know who the donor is (and it sounds like you don't either ('afaik' above)), then we're all making assumptions, but I would suggest that mine have a basis in experience and a reasonable probability of being correct. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Oct 28 15:27:48 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Oct 28 15:27:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] m.e.o. - Small Change Message-ID: <003601c15ff7$a578c200$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Dan (or whoever else has access), Can you delete the "->" on the front page of m.e.o. (at the bottom)? Different resolutions, cause the > to be separated from the text. See screen shot here. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/prtscnevolt.gif Originally reported in an email to admin from David Arnold. Thanks, Michele From mwarden at mattwarden.com Sun Oct 28 16:07:02 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sun Oct 28 16:07:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] m.e.o. - Small Change In-Reply-To: <003601c15ff7$a578c200$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 28, Michele Foster had something to say about [thesite] [Bug] m.e.o.... >Can you delete the "->" on the front page of m.e.o. (at the bottom)? >Different resolutions, cause the > to be separated from the text. > >See screen shot here. > >http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/prtscnevolt.gif > >Originally reported in an email to admin from David Arnold. Got it. Shoot David an email saying we fixed it, k? =) -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 29 07:38:47 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 29 07:38:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers Message-ID: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi Folks, I wanted to bring this issue up and hopefully come up with a consensus. The browsers we have for IE on beo don't work .. specifically, ver. 4 and 5 (and I'll guess 6 too). My understanding of the problem is this .. the files we have are "setup" only files, and in order to install the full browser version, once running the setup program, it downloads the necessary components that are required from MS directly. Which means, since MS is no longer supporting (or offer) the older browser versions, one can't install old versions of IE. There have been numerous conversations on thelist about this and also about having multiple versions of IE on one machine. Can others provide more insight? Am I correct in saying these aren't working and never will? I've personally spent a lot of time trying to locate full versions in the past, to no avail. Anyone have any better luck? With IE being so incorporated with the OS, I just don't think its going to work. My suggestion, delete the versions off b.e.o., perhaps putting up a note as to why we don't have them anymore. There is a current (active) email in the admin folder awaiting response. Here it is quoted (for those that don't have access)... Hi There - this looks like a great site. I've been trying to download MS IE 4.01 at http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/ie/32bit/4.01/ie4install.exe but when I try to run it or expand it manually w/winzip I get a CRC error from the download. I have tried on several different PC's and get the same error. Can you please check to see if something is wrong with the file that is there? Now, I d/led the specific version, no CRC error, per se. But it wouldn't install, saying it was looking for a file, tried to find it on the 'net, failed. Also, while I have everyone's undivided attention ;) ... what about Mac versions? Are there any reported problems? Do we have the full versions (working and installable) on b.e.o.? Here's the link to b.e.o. http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/ie/ I'd like to get this resolved .. specifically wrt IE on PC. I think we are doing a dis-service to our members allowing them to d/l the files, when in fact, they don't even work anymore :(. Comments, ideas, suggestions .. greatly appreciated. Michele From bobd at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 08:33:36 2001 From: bobd at members.evolt.org (Bob Davis) Date: Mon Oct 29 08:33:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers In-Reply-To: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: At 8:40 AM -0500 10/29/01, you wrote: > > >Also, while I have everyone's undivided attention ;) ... what about Mac >versions? Are there any reported problems? Do we have the full versions >(working and installable) on b.e.o.? i've installed a bunch of the mac stuff - and the MS distributes IE for mac differently than they do for windows. It's not made of pieces and parts, it's one monolithic application. On first run, it dumps a couple things into your system extensions, but that's it. They run out of the box. They're fine. bob -- bob davis bobd at members.evolt.org http://www.bobdavis.org/ From evolt at spinhead.com Mon Oct 29 11:38:18 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Mon Oct 29 11:38:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <001101c160a0$94aaa610$080a000a@HEISENBERG> It's my understanding that the CDs are complete; no download required. Haven't experimented with it, but if that's true could we gather CDs of the versions in question? spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Foster" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 5:40 AM Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers > Hi Folks, > > I wanted to bring this issue up and hopefully come up with a consensus. > > The browsers we have for IE on beo don't work .. specifically, ver. 4 and 5 > (and I'll guess 6 too). My understanding of the problem is this .. the > files we have are "setup" only files, and in order to install the full > browser version, once running the setup program, it downloads the necessary > components that are required from MS directly. Which means, since MS is no > longer supporting (or offer) the older browser versions, one can't install > old versions of IE. > > There have been numerous conversations on thelist about this and also about > having multiple versions of IE on one machine. > > Can others provide more insight? Am I correct in saying these aren't > working and never will? > > I've personally spent a lot of time trying to locate full versions in the > past, to no avail. Anyone have any better luck? > > With IE being so incorporated with the OS, I just don't think its going to > work. > > My suggestion, delete the versions off b.e.o., perhaps putting up a note as > to why we don't have them anymore. There is a current (active) email in the > admin folder awaiting response. Here it is quoted (for those that don't > have access)... > > > Hi There - this looks like a great site. I've been trying to download MS IE > 4.01 at http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/ie/32bit/4.01/ie4install.exe > but when I try to run it or expand it manually w/winzip I get a CRC error > from the download. I have tried on several different PC's and get the same > error. Can you please check to see if something is wrong with the file that > is there? > > > Now, I d/led the specific version, no CRC error, per se. But it wouldn't > install, saying it was looking for a file, tried to find it on the 'net, > failed. > > Also, while I have everyone's undivided attention ;) ... what about Mac > versions? Are there any reported problems? Do we have the full versions > (working and installable) on b.e.o.? > > Here's the link to b.e.o. http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/ie/ > > I'd like to get this resolved .. specifically wrt IE on PC. I think we are > doing a dis-service to our members allowing them to d/l the files, when in > fact, they don't even work anymore :(. > > Comments, ideas, suggestions .. greatly appreciated. > > > Michele > > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From isaac at triplezero.com.au Mon Oct 29 17:02:32 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:02:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: Who has the db schema for the current voting application? I'm interested in allowing it to have timed votes (start time, end time, etc), and to allow votes to various priv levels (open member vote, voting membership vote, etc). Who's been managing the project so far? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 29 17:24:47 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:24:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: it's walker's code. i don't think there has actually been a project or anything. walker wrote it (possibly for something else?) and we used it. dan edited the look&feel a bit. thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com On Oct 30, Isaac Forman had something to say about [thesite] voting application >Who has the db schema for the current voting application? > >I'm interested in allowing it to have timed votes (start time, end time, >etc), and to allow votes to various priv levels (open member vote, voting >membership vote, etc). > > >Who's been managing the project so far? > > >isaac From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 17:30:07 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:30:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > it's walker's code. i don't think there has actually been a project or > anything. walker wrote it (possibly for something else?) and we used > it. dan edited the look&feel a bit. OK, from memory, the code is able to handle a question and multiple options. what i think we'll need is something that can do this, handle start/finish times, and also notification (new vote, 1 day before close, and on close [with results?]). also, the priv issue. can someone confirm that it's been coded with CF? also, for anyone who has seen the code, and given the above requirements, would we be best to adapt the current code, or start from scratch? thanks, i From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 17:40:32 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:40:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: isaac > > OK, from memory, the code is able to handle a question > and multiple options. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< correct. it also has provisions for preventing more than one vote per person. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > what i think we'll need is something that can do this, > handle start/finish times, and also notification (new > vote, 1 day before close, and on close [with results?]). > also, the priv issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< handle single votes as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > can someone confirm that it's been coded with CF? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< most definitely done in coldfusion. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > also, for anyone who has seen the code, and given the > above requirements, would we be best to adapt the > current code, or start from scratch? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< build from scratch -- that's almost always easier. should this sort of functionality be part of w.e.o? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 29 17:44:27 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:44:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 29, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] voting application >should this sort of functionality be part of w.e.o? just trying to understand your thinking here... why w.e.o? From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 17:55:43 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:55:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >should this sort of functionality be part of w.e.o? > > just trying to understand your thinking here... > > why w.e.o? direct access to user table? (may not be necessary with UEUEUEUEUEEEEUUetc [?]) also open to wider membership for more general polls like: "do you handcode or wysiwyg?" the alternative is AEO, right? where do you think we could put it? i From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 18:01:58 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 18:01:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > should this sort of functionality be part of w.e.o? > > just trying to understand your thinking here... > > why w.e.o? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 1) survey and/or voting applications are common in content management systems yet missing from ours. 2) we've talked many times about running useful or even goofy surveys on w.e.o., but never had any mechanisms in place to do it. 3) the application is placed where the largest portion of our audience already is. ie, it's where the users will expect it to be. 4) we can take advantage of things already in place like login and priv levels. 5) we can put votes out to the general population with ease. 6) we can run votes/surveys that either require or don't require being logged in. give me half a chance, i'll think of more reasons to put it on w.e.o. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 18:05:58 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 18:05:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted In-Reply-To: <3BD9172D.9050009@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > give me some more info about this oracle native > > driver issue. > > well.. you can't connect to oracle decently without > native drivers. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< fwiw, you can't connect to *anything* decently without native drivers. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > to get that connectivity, you need CF enterprise. aka > $4000 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< oh, then this isn't an issue of cf being closed-source. it's an issue of not having the right license. i thought you were talking about the native driver for oracle costing an additional $4000. in reality, the $4000 covers *much* more than just the oracle driver. just my 2c, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From martin at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 18:49:43 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Mon Oct 29 18:49:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: isaac wrote on 30/10/01 12:56 am >also open to wider membership for more general polls like: > > "do you handcode or wysiwyg?" with only one option - handcode. Sorry, sorry, stepping away from the computer now. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 18:51:52 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Mon Oct 29 18:51:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers Message-ID: <0366d4352001ea1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Michele Foster wrote on 29/10/01 1:40 pm >The browsers we have for IE on beo don't work .. specifically, ver. 4 and 5 >(and I'll guess 6 too). My understanding of the problem is this .. the >files we have are "setup" only files, and in order to install the full >browser version, once running the setup program, it downloads the necessary >components that are required from MS directly. Which means, since MS is no >longer supporting (or offer) the older browser versions, one can't install >old versions of IE. Is Adrian on this list? Can't remember, but this discussion would be much more valuable with him being part of it. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 29 19:02:43 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 29 19:02:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers In-Reply-To: <0366d4352001ea1PCOW035M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <200110300102.f9U12gvt030519@leo.evolt.org> > From: Martin > > Is Adrian on this list? > > Can't remember, but this discussion would be much more valuable with > him being part of it. shit... sorry, filters.. read thread, lemme look, gotta go... From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Oct 29 19:45:56 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Oct 29 19:45:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: voting app Message-ID: isaac wrote: >discussion on thesite has stalled temporarily on "where would the voting >app sit?" (i.e., WEO). Oh, I didn't say anything because jeff made sense. IOW, +1 for w.e.o. Let's just try not to get bogged down with generalizing the app so much so that we can some day use it as a general polling app if it's going to add a bunch more development time. If it won't, sounds like a plan (to me anyways)... -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 19:53:29 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 29 19:53:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: voting app In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh, I didn't say anything because jeff made sense. IOW, +1 for w.e.o. +1 from me too. > Let's just try not to get bogged down with generalizing the app so much so > that we can some day use it as a general polling app if it's going to add > a bunch more development time. If it won't, sounds like a plan (to me > anyways)... It'll need to be based on privs to facilitate the voting membership which we appear to be moving towards in some form or another, so I don't think it'll drag out development time to enable the future general polling. I just can't wait to see the vote on voting (majority vs 2/3s). (theprocess has already voted on it and leaned towards 2/3s, but it wasn't a 2/3s decision. ;P) i From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 20:27:32 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 20:27:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: voting app In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > Oh, I didn't say anything because jeff made sense. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< if you've been involved in the conversation thus far then we can't know that your silence is a +1. for all we know you could have lost internet connectivity and are unable to respond to defend your position. take the 5 seconds to give us all the courtesy of weighing in with your position. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > IOW, +1 for w.e.o. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< there, just like that. thanks ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Let's just try not to get bogged down with generalizing > the app so much so that we can some day use it as a > general polling app if it's going to add a bunch more > development time. If it won't, sounds like a plan (to > me anyways)... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i can't imagine how a voting app would be much different than a general polling app so i doubt the generalization would cost any time. the general polling app will need to be there first anyway. then, the various pieces about notification that isaac talks about will need to be added to it. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 29 21:19:18 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:19:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application References: Message-ID: <000f01c160f1$f3598680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Jeff, ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | | 1) survey and/or voting applications are common in | content management systems yet missing from ours. Ok, fair enough .. and most of your other reasons too. However, what are the implications of adding yet more code to the current CMS to facilitate a voting application? i.e. where's the voting going to appear? Similar to articles? On the side bar? How many additional queries to the DB will be required on the front page (and subsequent pages) to display the voting information? Not being argumentative .. I'm just curious if we really want to add more functionality to code that you've already said should be cleaned up and rethought in the future. Would it not make more sense to leave the voting app. as a stand-alone application? We can still offer it as an open source project. I'm not sure I want it (the voting app.) so tightly woven into the CMS... but, since I'm well aware I don't have to code it .. what I want doesn't really matter. ;) Would a unique *e.o. site suffice? Does anyone have McCreath's stylized version (URL) of the voting app handy? (actually, I'll cc this to David) I do agree with moving it out of the Admin application so that it can be used by all members. | 4) we can take advantage of things already in place | like login and priv levels. ueue should take care of this problem though, for all .e.o. sites. Mich From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 21:25:53 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:25:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <000f01c160f1$f3598680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > However, what are the implications of adding yet more code to the current > CMS to facilitate a voting application? i.e. where's the voting going to > appear? Similar to articles? On the side bar? How many > additional queries > to the DB will be required on the front page (and subsequent pages) to > display the voting information? Remember that polls/voting need not be displayed within the sitebar. It might be accessed through a link somewhere. In addition, should it be displayed within the sidebar, like the entire sidebar itself, it could be displayed as a personal preference (i.e., don't like it, switch it off (or switch it on if it's off by default, and you do like it)). Saying that it's on WEO means that it's on WEO (i.e., could just sit in evolt.org/vote). I'm sure we'll be discussing the finer points of integrated polls, link positions, etc once it's built. > I do agree with moving it out of the Admin application so that it can be > used by all members. +1 i From bruce at heerssen.com Mon Oct 29 21:44:26 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:44:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers In-Reply-To: <001101c160a0$94aaa610$080a000a@HEISENBERG> References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <001101c160a0$94aaa610$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <01102920392500.01589@localhost.localdomain> On Monday 29 October 2001 12:38, Joel wrote: > It's my understanding that the CDs are complete; no download required. > Haven't experimented with it, but if that's true could we gather CDs of the > versions in question? > Yep. This is true. Many, many cd's have a version of IE. They are all full installers (no net connection required) AFAIK. Hell, the first three I tried here at home had one. But steer clear of the ones by AOL, Compuserve, et al. They all seem to put their branding on it - and who knows what else. -Bruce From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 29 21:59:15 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:59:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <001101c160a0$94aaa610$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <01102920392500.01589@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002101c160f7$88ee6d00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Thanks Bruce and Joel, Ok, if anyone has CD versions, pipe up with version numbers etc. and perhaps Dan could allow you access directly to b.e.o. or send the CD's via postal mail or post them somewhere else or I dunno, some other solution ... hehehe Let's see what we have available and go from there. Still waiting for Adrian to comment when he has a chance ... b.e.o. is his baby. ;) Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Heerssen" | On Monday 29 October 2001 12:38, Joel wrote: | > It's my understanding that the CDs are complete; no download required. | > Haven't experimented with it, but if that's true could we gather CDs of the | > versions in question? | > | | Yep. This is true. Many, many cd's have a version of IE. They are all full | installers (no net connection required) AFAIK. | | Hell, the first three I tried here at home had one. But steer clear of the | ones by AOL, Compuserve, et al. They all seem to put their branding on it - | and who knows what else. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 29 22:12:41 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 29 22:12:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <003601c160f9$697e69a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Thanks Bob .. good to know (for sure). For the Mac, our latest version is 5.0, does that sound reasonable? Thanks, Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Davis" | i've installed a bunch of the mac stuff - and the MS distributes IE | for mac differently than they do for windows. It's not made of | pieces and parts, it's one monolithic application. On first run, it | dumps a couple things into your system extensions, but that's it. | They run out of the box. | | They're fine. From roselli at earthlink.net Mon Oct 29 22:16:46 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Mon Oct 29 22:16:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers In-Reply-To: <002101c160f7$88ee6d00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BDDE359.7772.89449BF2@localhost> > From: "Michele Foster" [...] > Still waiting for Adrian to comment when he has a chance ... b.e.o. is > his baby. ;) i did earlier... my filters were kicked in, so i missed this thread... anyway, the IE that's up there is from MSDN, so what bothers me is that i thought the problem we were having now was it dropping connections during d/l... but the version(s) there are *still* trying to connect? i hate MSDN... anyway, yeah... From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Oct 29 23:10:13 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Oct 29 23:10:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers References: <3BDDE359.7772.89449BF2@localhost> Message-ID: <005401c16101$73be56c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Adrian, ----- Original Message ----- From: "aardvark" | i did earlier... my filters were kicked in, so i missed this thread... Maybe I'm missing another message from ya ... all I saw was this one: "shit... sorry, filters.. read thread, lemme look, gotta go..." So, I was waiting for ya to come back ;) | | anyway, the IE that's up there is from MSDN, so what bothers me | is that i thought the problem we were having now was it dropping | connections during d/l... I've been searching there just now and can't find the files at all anymore. Can you remember where you found them? | | but the version(s) there are *still* trying to connect? I only tried 4.02 version. It tries to install, up pops a window saying windows update component missing, tries to install, fails, comes up with another menu saying something to the effect that the previous installation failed, do you still want to continue. (This is where I back out and say no, since I don't want to mess up my own dev. machine ;)) IE 5 is definitely just the set up and requires auto install as well. :( And, IE 6, they are doing a set up distribution too :( http://microsoft.com/windows/ie/downloads/ie6/download.asp | | i hate MSDN... hehe | | anyway, yeah... Yeah what ? delete versions 4 and 5, adding a note .. when/if full disk versions are available from evolt members, go with them? (would this be legal???) Do we want to purchase a CD version of IE6 (10 us/15 cdn): http://microsoft.com/windows/ie/ordercd/ie.asp (same legal issues, me thinks, i.e. redistributing a CD .. not sure what the licence says about that ) Thanks, Mich From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 23:30:27 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 23:30:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <000f01c160f1$f3598680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > Ok, fair enough .. and most of your other reasons too. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< cool. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > However, what are the implications of adding yet more > code to the current CMS to facilitate a voting > application? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< minimal to the cms as a whole. any implications that would arise would come from placing some of the app in the sidebar. this isn't a necessity though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i.e. where's the voting going to appear? Similar to ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it depends. there will probably be a vote/survey listing like a category listing page that displays all the active votes/surveys based on the user's priv ordered from oldest to newest (gotta encourage the old stuff to be voted on). it will also probably have a listing of closed surveys/votes with links to view their results ordered newest to oldest like articles and displaying only the most recent 10. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > articles? On the side bar? How many additional queries > to the DB will be required on the front page (and > subsequent pages) to display the voting information? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i see it only needing 1 query to add it to the sidebar. not sure how many for the actual voting/survey application itself. that's not as much of an issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Not being argumentative .. I'm just curious if we really > want to add more functionality to code that you've > already said should be cleaned up and rethought in the > future. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< more cleaned up than rethought. i don't have a problem adding more to it so long as it's done with performance in mind. alot of the recent stuff that's been added hasn't gotten that treatment and the processing times have suffered because of that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Would it not make more sense to leave the voting app. as > a stand-alone application? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, i don't think so. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > We can still offer it as an open source project. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< don't really care either way. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I'm not sure I want it (the voting app.) so tightly > woven into the CMS... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< in contrast, i'd like to see it as part of the cms. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Would a unique *e.o. site suffice? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yuck, no. we already have too many subsites. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Does anyone have McCreath's stylized version (URL) of > the voting app handy? (actually, I'll cc this to David) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://members.evolt.org/mccreath/evolt/evoltpolling.html i'll have to read over his proposal a bit more before i'll know if i want to go with that or something different (built from my experience with building vote/survey apps). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | 4) we can take advantage of things already in > | place like login and priv levels. > > ueue should take care of this problem though, for > all .e.o. sites. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< when/if it gets built, *then* i'll use that in my analysis on what i think the best solution is. as for this app, even if ueue was done, i'd still say it belongs in w.e.o. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Oct 29 23:53:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Oct 29 23:53:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: isaac > > Remember that polls/voting need not be displayed within > the sitebar. It might be accessed through a link > somewhere. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > In addition, should it be displayed within the sidebar, > like the entire sidebar itself, it could be displayed > as a personal preference (i.e., don't like it, switch > it off (or switch it on if it's off by default, and you > do like it)). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< this will need to be fleshed out more i think. there's a possibility that we want to offer surveys to non-logged in users. maybe we don't want to build support in for that right now though -- i dunno. if we do, the major issue would be do we want to try to prevent multiple votes on votes/surveys that are open to priv 0 (non-logged in users). if not then giving that functionality would be cake. maybe that sort of limitation in the system is something we just accept. in other words, you can only limit it to a single vote if the vote requires priv >= 1 otherwise the user can vote as many times as they wish -- problem solved. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Saying that it's on WEO means that it's on WEO (i.e., > could just sit in evolt.org/vote). I'm sure we'll be > discussing the finer points of integrated polls, link > positions, etc once it's built. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, still lots more talk left to go. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Oct 30 04:12:46 2001 From: ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins) Date: Tue Oct 30 04:12:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] Comment notification and article ratings Message-ID: Hi there, I just posted my first article to evolt and I have a couple of suggestions about the way things work. Firstly, I've been getting two email notifications everytime someone comments on the article. I think this is because I made a comment on my own article, so I get one email as the author and one because I have been involved in the discussion (one message starts with "Hello,", the other with "Hello Simon,". Would it be possible to add a bit of logic to only send the second message if the user isn't the author? Secondly, I would find it useful if the rating mentioned how many points it was out of, particularly on the homepage. Simon From bruce at heerssen.com Tue Oct 30 09:31:59 2001 From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Tue Oct 30 09:31:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers In-Reply-To: <002101c160f7$88ee6d00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <01102920392500.01589@localhost.localdomain> <002101c160f7$88ee6d00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <01103008321201.01589@localhost.localdomain> On Monday 29 October 2001 23:01, you wrote: > Thanks Bruce and Joel, > > Ok, if anyone has CD versions, pipe up with version numbers etc. and > perhaps Dan could allow you access directly to b.e.o. or send the CD's via > postal mail or post them somewhere else or I dunno, some other solution > ... hehehe > I have version 5.0 (win) on my CF Studio 4.5 cd. My copy of Fireworks 2 has ie3 and ie4. There may be a problem though. All of these come with cab files and what not that seem to be associated with the install, but I can't be sure because I can't install them (newer version on my win box - and no, I'm not going to do anything weird to my windows installation). But if someone has some spare time and a couple of old boxen to use for research, we can check this out. FWIW, I believe that the early WinNT 4.0 disks came with IE 2 (which can probably be ripped, btw) - that would make a good install base for testing. Anyone have a copy? Oh yeah, the install program IE 5.0 is 15 megs and I'm on dial-up. But I'm happy to upload it somewhere if no one else can get it faster. -Bruce From evolt at spinhead.com Tue Oct 30 11:12:51 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Tue Oct 30 11:12:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers References: <00d701c1607f$4fee1280$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <01102920392500.01589@localhost.localdomain> <002101c160f7$88ee6d00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <01103008321201.01589@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002301c16166$0ae828f0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> I'll be getting 6.0 soon. Good fast connection, so I'll be ready to roll whenever it's in house. spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Heerssen" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers > On Monday 29 October 2001 23:01, you wrote: > > Thanks Bruce and Joel, > > > > Ok, if anyone has CD versions, pipe up with version numbers etc. and > > perhaps Dan could allow you access directly to b.e.o. or send the CD's via > > postal mail or post them somewhere else or I dunno, some other solution > > ... hehehe > > > > I have version 5.0 (win) on my CF Studio 4.5 cd. My copy of Fireworks 2 has > ie3 and ie4. > > There may be a problem though. All of these come with cab files and what not > that seem to be associated with the install, but I can't be sure because I > can't install them (newer version on my win box - and no, I'm not going to do > anything weird to my windows installation). But if someone has some spare > time and a couple of old boxen to use for research, we can check this out. > > FWIW, I believe that the early WinNT 4.0 disks came with IE 2 (which can > probably be ripped, btw) - that would make a good install base for testing. > Anyone have a copy? > > Oh yeah, the install program IE 5.0 is 15 megs and I'm on dial-up. But I'm > happy to upload it somewhere if no one else can get it faster. > > -Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 30 15:44:22 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 30 15:44:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] b.e.o. - IE Browsers Message-ID: <0de362245211ea1PCOW034M@blueyonder.co.uk> Bruce Heerssen wrote on 30/10/01 1:39 am >Hell, the first three I tried here at home had one. But steer clear of the >ones by AOL, Compuserve, et al. They all seem to put their branding on it - >and who knows what else. That'll be the normal MS SDK for ISPs. Basically, it's a bunch of registry hacks to get the "Provided by foo.com" titlebar and custom icons. Except AOL of course, but that's not normal IE. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 30 15:50:42 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Tue Oct 30 15:50:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: <096e34251211ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> .jeff wrote on 30/10/01 5:55 am >here's a possibility that >we want to offer surveys to non-logged in users. maybe we don't want to >build support in for that right now though -- i dunno. if we do, the major >issue would be do we want to try to prevent multiple votes on votes/surveys >that are open to priv 0 (non-logged in users). Depends on how much we care about the results. If it's a throwaway, non-significant poll (like "Thongs or boxers?") then who cares? I think having the priv level of both voting and result viewing being configurable would be a useful thing. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From joshua at alphashop.com Tue Oct 30 17:01:31 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.com (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Oct 30 17:01:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] thelist relay errors References: <096e34251211ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <019801c16198$1d57ef70$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Hey guys, For some reason I am getting bounce-backs from thelist. I'm not so sure I should be getting these sorts of messages. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Warning, delivery failure! This is a status message indicating that a message could not be delivered to 1 or more recipients. Original message subject: [thelist] IIS Runaway Processes on Win 2k Server Date received: 30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 Recipients and delivery history sranda at ch-advertising.com ---- Transcript of session follows --- 30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 Received via SMTP from RELAY.EVOLT.ORG 30-Oct-2001 17:00:16 -0600 The mailbox for user sranda is full From evolt at spinhead.com Tue Oct 30 17:15:01 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Tue Oct 30 17:15:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] thelist relay errors References: <096e34251211ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> <019801c16198$1d57ef70$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <002b01c16198$b0e649d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Got one myself about two hours ago. spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Olson" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: [thesite] thelist relay errors > Hey guys, > > For some reason I am getting bounce-backs from thelist. I'm not so sure I > should be getting these sorts of messages. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Warning, delivery failure! This is a status message indicating that a > message could not be delivered to 1 or more recipients. > > Original message subject: [thelist] IIS Runaway Processes on Win 2k Server > Date received: 30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 > > > Recipients and delivery history > > sranda at ch-advertising.com > ---- Transcript of session follows --- > 30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 Received via SMTP from RELAY.EVOLT.ORG > 30-Oct-2001 17:00:16 -0600 The mailbox for user sranda is full > > From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Oct 30 17:17:47 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Oct 30 17:17:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] thelist relay errors References: <096e34251211ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> <019801c16198$1d57ef70$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> <002b01c16198$b0e649d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <3BDF352B.8090303@starkmedia.com> i got it right after josh's heads up.. spinhead wrote: > Got one myself about two hours ago. > > spinhead > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Olson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 3:10 PM > Subject: [thesite] thelist relay errors > > > >>Hey guys, >> >>For some reason I am getting bounce-backs from thelist. I'm not so sure I >>should be getting these sorts of messages. >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>Warning, delivery failure! This is a status message indicating that a >>message could not be delivered to 1 or more recipients. >> >>Original message subject: [thelist] IIS Runaway Processes on Win 2k Server >>Date received: 30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 >> >> >>Recipients and delivery history >> >>sranda at ch-advertising.com >> ---- Transcript of session follows --- >>30-Oct-2001 17:00:01 -0600 Received via SMTP from RELAY.EVOLT.ORG >>30-Oct-2001 17:00:16 -0600 The mailbox for user sranda is full >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From dmah at shaw.ca Tue Oct 30 17:42:13 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Tue Oct 30 17:42:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tip Harvester Search Message-ID: <200110302342.QAA03007@alice.monkeyland.ca> I've added a search to the Tip Harvester. Caveat: searching of tip bodies is case sensitive right now. Dean From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Oct 30 18:33:43 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Oct 30 18:33:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <096e34251211ea1PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: martin, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Martin > > Depends on how much we care about the results. If it's > a throwaway, non-significant poll (like "Thongs or > boxers?") then who cares? > > I think having the priv level of both voting and result > viewing being configurable would be a useful thing. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that brings up an interesting point. i hadn't considered separating voting rights and viewing rights, but that does add some additional flexibility. an example i see is the ability to set voting privileges to priv >= 3, but viewing privileges to priv >= 2. this way the members can request a vote from voting members, be kept from actually voting, but see the results when it's all said and done. this all brings up another question: should surveys/votes have an optional switch to specify whether or not the results can be viewed prior to the vote closing? i think the answer is probably yes, but maybe not. maybe that's controlled by the type of poll you create. in other words, if you create a survey the results are available from the point you cast your opinion whereas with a vote you can't see the results until it's closed to ensure impartiality. keep the ideas coming. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 31 00:12:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 31 00:12:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] blockfactor revisted References: Message-ID: <3BDF975E.7030809@starkmedia.com> um. it is an issue of CF being closed source. if i have oracle box connecting to a PHP or a j2ee engine, i dont get charged an extra $X for the priviledge of using the native drivers that i already have. to clarify: to use the CF native drivers, you have to have Oracle client software installed on the machine(weo in this case) in the first place. i could buy the enterprise version of CF with the hope of having native oracle connectivity, but the fact is i wouldnt unless I had oracle. that seems like a chicken before the egg thing. the 'issue' of havign a cf license and cf being closed source are the same jeff. because cf is closed source, i have to pay to use their license to connect to a native oracle driver. with an open j2ee or php engine, i don't have to pay to *USE* that driver. with cf you do. sure, there's more to the $4000 that cf ent. provides. cluster cats and corba connectivety. ya. for one, no one uses software based load balancing(cluster cats) in serious apps; worthless. corba? thats cool if you're hooking into j2ee or shit like that. in which case you'd use j2ee. oh, and the new verity search engine. yay. someone bind my enthusiasm :) .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>to get that connectivity, you need CF enterprise. aka >>$4000 >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > oh, then this isn't an issue of cf being closed-source. it's an issue of > not having the right license. i thought you were talking about the native > driver for oracle costing an additional $4000. in reality, the $4000 covers > *much* more than just the oracle driver. From mccreath at ak.net Wed Oct 31 00:15:03 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (mccreath) Date: Wed Oct 31 00:15:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <000f01c160f1$f3598680$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: Hey, folks - currently nomail, but here's what I've done re: voting applications over the last several months: * interface redesign of walker's voting app to fit in the framework of aeo (no real functionality added or taken away): Main page with listing of currently open votes/polls: http://members.evolt.org/mccreath/evolt/aeo/voting_default.shtml (This would function similarly to the articles on weo -- that is, there would be a running archive of votes/polls and their results.) Actual voting page for a sample poll: http://members.evolt.org/mccreath/evolt/aeo/voting_poll.shtml Results page for a poll: http://members.evolt.org/mccreath/evolt/aeo/voting_results.shtml * loose proposal for creating a new category on weo for polls/votes, based on existing code: http://members.evolt.org/mccreath/evolt/evoltpolling.html This was originally intended to be an admin-only tool, and I haven't reviewed it to see how it would work for a broader base of voters, but I imagine it's possible. FWIW, I've always thought that our best path would be working the voting into the CMS, whether it adapted itself to the existing db structure or added independent tables. David (still nomail) :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Michele Foster [mailto:michele at wordpro.on.ca] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:21 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Cc: David McCreath > Subject: Re: [thesite] voting application > > > Jeff, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ".jeff" > | > | 1) survey and/or voting applications are common in > | content management systems yet missing from ours. > > Ok, fair enough .. and most of your other reasons too. > > However, what are the implications of adding yet more code to the current > CMS to facilitate a voting application? i.e. where's the voting going to > appear? Similar to articles? On the side bar? How many > additional queries > to the DB will be required on the front page (and subsequent pages) to > display the voting information? > > Not being argumentative .. I'm just curious if we really want to add more > functionality to code that you've already said should be cleaned up and > rethought in the future. > > Would it not make more sense to leave the voting app. as a stand-alone > application? We can still offer it as an open source project. I'm not > sure I want it (the voting app.) so tightly woven into the CMS... but, > since I'm well aware I don't have to code it .. what I want doesn't really > matter. ;) > > Would a unique *e.o. site suffice? Does anyone have McCreath's stylized > version (URL) of the voting app handy? (actually, I'll cc this to David) > > I do agree with moving it out of the Admin application so that it can be > used by all members. > > > | 4) we can take advantage of things already in place > | like login and priv levels. > > > ueue should take care of this problem though, for all .e.o. sites. > > > Mich > > > From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 31 00:51:23 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 31 00:51:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application References: Message-ID: <3BDFA075.5050605@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > 1) survey and/or voting applications are common in > content management systems yet missing from ours. ? CMS doesn't scream voting application to me. > 2) we've talked many times about running useful or > even goofy surveys on w.e.o., but never had any > mechanisms in place to do it. voting applicatoin for 'goofy' things isn't what we're talkign about here > 3) the application is placed where the largest portion > of our audience already is. ie, it's where the > users will expect it to be. the 'users' or the 'members' that would be voting on things > 4) we can take advantage of things already in place > like login and priv levels. already in place on a.e.o > 5) we can put votes out to the general population > with ease. the general pop. will have voting rights on these issues? > 6) we can run votes/surveys that either require or > don't require being logged in. uh. some people are talking about "VM".(voting members) i'd assume we dont want non-"VM" people voting on "VM" issues. > give me half a chance, i'll think of more reasons to put it on w.e.o. w.e.o is a CMS, not a system for "VM"(voting members for those of you still keeping track) to tally votes. how are you going to figure "VM" into the userpriv? its already done in a.e.o, which walker has *done* and spent a good amount of time on. w.e.o is bloated enough IMO for a CMS. to clarify, a CMS that runs on oracle and uses a URL scheme that isn't easily implemented and only ~3 people understand. there are more important things to implement within our CMS right now than a voting app. like all the things talked about last week but haven't yet been done. .djc. From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 01:02:24 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 01:02:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <3BDFA075.5050605@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Dan, We're talking about a voting application which has the flexibility to handle voting for various privilege levels, and on various issues. i.e., a voting application that can handle open polls on casual issues, as well as those for voting members, etc. > the general pop. will have voting rights on these issues? On some polls, yes. > > 6) we can run votes/surveys that either require or > > don't require being logged in. > uh. some people are talking about "VM".(voting members) i'd assume we > dont want non-"VM" people voting on "VM" issues. They won't vote on those. > w.e.o is a CMS, not a system for "VM"(voting members for those of you > still keeping track) to tally votes. There is a CMS on WEO. The voting application can sit within the CMS on WEO, or outside of the CMS on WEO. Regardless, I think it should sit on WEO. As does Matt and Jeff so far. Whether it's integrated within the CMS itself is up for further debate obviously. (On that issue, I don't mind either way). > how are you going to figure "VM" into the userpriv? its already done in > a.e.o, which walker has *done* and spent a good amount of time on. Using priv=2 or priv=3. Matt suggested priv2 = voting member, and priv3 would be voting member who also has editing/email rights. That sounds sensible to me. > w.e.o is bloated enough IMO for a CMS. to clarify, a CMS that runs on > oracle and uses a URL scheme that isn't easily implemented and only ~3 > people understand. I remember the days when you were so proud of your sexy URLs... ;) > there are more important things to implement within our CMS right now > than a voting app. like all the things talked about last week but > haven't yet been done. I disagree. I can think of few things less important than the voting application right now. isaac From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Oct 31 10:03:10 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Oct 31 10:03:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application References: Message-ID: <3BE020D0.7060909@starkmedia.com> i do like the URL scheme, don't get me wrong.. i also think its really cool, i just (still) don't understand how it works a year later, thats all.. it seems the level of importance concerning a feature is a direct result of how much time those wanting said feature have to pitch and advocate it. not a slam or anything, just an obvservation from the cheap seats. .djc. isaac wrote: >>w.e.o is bloated enough IMO for a CMS. to clarify, a CMS that runs on >>oracle and uses a URL scheme that isn't easily implemented and only ~3 >>people understand. >> > > I remember the days when you were so proud of your sexy URLs... ;) > > >>there are more important things to implement within our CMS right now >>than a voting app. like all the things talked about last week but >>haven't yet been done. >> > > I disagree. I can think of few things less important than the voting > application right now. From lindsay at redsquare.com.au Wed Oct 31 16:40:00 2001 From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans) Date: Wed Oct 31 16:40:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? Message-ID: Not sure if this has been discussed before, but in addition to linking to the mebers profile in the tip harvester, how about a listing of the tips users have written on their profile page? Seems like it would be fairly easy to do, but I'm not very familiar with the whole tip harvester thing... -- Lindsay Evans. Developer, Red Square Productions. vox: 8596.4000 fax: 8596.4001 web: www.redsquare.com.au From mwarden at mattwarden.com Wed Oct 31 16:45:54 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Oct 31 16:45:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 1, Lindsay Evans had something to say about [thesite] Tips on... >Not sure if this has been discussed before, but in addition to linking to >the mebers profile in the tip harvester, how about a listing of the tips >users have written on their profile page? > >Seems like it would be fairly easy to do, but I'm not very familiar with the >whole tip harvester thing... What about an additional "list by author" feature in thetips section and a link to it on the member/user page? It won't get all the tips, probably. It only links up the tips to actual userids if there happens to be enough information (same email address, etc.) in the harvested email/tip. Right dean? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From evolt at spinhead.com Wed Oct 31 16:52:16 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Wed Oct 31 16:52:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: Message-ID: <002501c1625e$cdc1c2c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> If so, might prompt the Tip Machines on the list to get consistent about tagging themselves (if they care.) spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warden, Matt" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [thesite] Tips on members page? [ . . . ] > > It won't get all the tips, probably. It only links up the tips to actual > userids if there happens to be enough information (same email address, > etc.) in the harvested email/tip. > > Right dean? > > > -- > mattwarden > mattwarden.com > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 17:00:48 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:00:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <002501c1625e$cdc1c2c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: > If so, might prompt the Tip Machines on the list to get consistent about > tagging themselves (if they care.) Good thinking. You can guarantee that aardvark would never screw a tip tag up then... (He's forward-thinking, so I doubt he has anyway). i From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 17:42:24 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:42:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <3BE020D0.7060909@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > i do like the URL scheme, don't get me wrong.. i also think its really > cool, i just (still) don't understand how it works a year later, > thats all.. Fair enough. > it seems the level of importance concerning a feature is a direct result > of how much time those wanting said feature have to pitch and advocate it. I know you have little interest in using a voting method to ascertain entry to privileged status. But I've not seen an effective alternative. I think we agree that: - we want as many people to participate as possible - some participation requires a certain priv switch in the db - two or three people can be responsible for flicking that priv switch - priv should be assigned when a volunteer is trusted Where we seem to disagree is how we decide who to trust. I think that can be most effectively handled with a vote from members already with that priv. The alternative seems to be to base it on a decision from one or two people which I don't think is particularly good. i From roselli at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 17:49:21 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:49:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: References: <002501c1625e$cdc1c2c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <200110312349.f9VNnJvt005196@leo.evolt.org> > From: "isaac" > > > If so, might prompt the Tip Machines on the list to get consistent > > about tagging themselves (if they care.) > > Good thinking. You can guarantee that aardvark would never screw a tip > tag up then... (He's forward-thinking, so I doubt he has anyway). ok, now i *am* confused, and i thought i was reading this thread... when you say "tagging themselves," do you mean [tip author="aardvark"]? or something else? isaac's comment jolted me awake, namely because now i'm wondering what i'm doing right/wrong... From evolt at spinhead.com Wed Oct 31 17:54:28 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:54:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: <002501c1625e$cdc1c2c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <200110312349.f9VNnJvt005196@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000901c16267$528f6f90$080a000a@HEISENBERG> That was what I meant (not knowing if anyone else cares, but knowing who a tip comes from frequently tells me something about the tip itself) spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "aardvark" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: RE: [thesite] Tips on members page? > > From: "isaac" > > > > > If so, might prompt the Tip Machines on the list to get consistent > > > about tagging themselves (if they care.) > > > > Good thinking. You can guarantee that aardvark would never screw a tip > > tag up then... (He's forward-thinking, so I doubt he has anyway). > > ok, now i *am* confused, and i thought i was reading this thread... > > when you say "tagging themselves," do you mean [tip > author="aardvark"]? > > or something else? > > isaac's comment jolted me awake, namely because now i'm > wondering what i'm doing right/wrong... > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 17:56:54 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:56:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <200110312349.f9VNnJvt005196@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: > ok, now i *am* confused, and i thought i was reading this thread... > > when you say "tagging themselves," do you mean [tip > author="aardvark"]? yeh, correctly formatting your tip so that it's accurately picked up by the harvester with your author name. > isaac's comment jolted me awake, namely because now i'm > wondering what i'm doing right/wrong... you're doing everything right: contributing to evolt.org, *and* trying to get something back in return. i From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 31 18:01:22 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:01:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: Message-ID: <00e701c16268$aba7b460$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | yeh, correctly formatting your tip so that it's accurately picked up by the | harvester with your author name. If I'm not mistaken, two things are checked in order to attempt to verify a tip author with a UserID on weo .. those being, the author as given within the tags and/or the author of the email. Not sure if there's a "preference" given if the two checks don't equal tho. Mich | From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 31 18:05:17 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:05:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: <01c16268$fcb621c0$4a4e149a@rudy> >I think we agree that: > > - we want as many people to participate as possible > - some participation requires a certain priv switch in the db > - two or three people can be responsible for flicking that priv switch > - priv should be assigned when a volunteer is trusted yes, i think we do >Where we seem to disagree is how we decide who to trust. I think that can be >most effectively handled with a vote from members already with that priv. +1 of course, this makes sense only for privs 2 and up, as priv 1 is wide open by the way, we still aren't using priv 2 anywhere it was intended for "members" and -- in my opinion -- should have some restriction, if only nominal right now dan approves m.e.o accounts, and this is the type of thing that priv 2 would cover ... although letting m.e.o account holders authorize additional m.e.o accounts seems a little shaky rudenheimer running back to the door, the witches are out From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 31 18:11:27 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:11:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? Message-ID: <01c16269$e9ab72a0$4a4e149a@rudy> > Not sure if there's a "preference" given > if the two checks don't equal tho. only dean would know however, tagging isn't necessary, a naked tip works just fine, as dan pointed out using an example of mine on thelist today rudy trick or treat smell my feet give me something good to eat! From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 18:12:18 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:12:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <01c16268$fcb621c0$4a4e149a@rudy> Message-ID: > by the way, we still aren't using priv 2 anywhere What do you think of matt's idea to have: priv 2 = voting rights priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights ? i From mwarden at mattwarden.com Wed Oct 31 18:17:17 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:17:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <01c16269$e9ab72a0$4a4e149a@rudy> Message-ID: On Oct 31, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] Tips on members page? >> Not sure if there's a "preference" given >> if the two checks don't equal tho. > >only dean would know Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm 99% sure he doesn't deal with any author attribute, but rather the From: header of the email. author="my at email.net" author="username" author="Firstname Lastname" author="Lastname, Firstname" author="Firstname" author="Lastname" author="nickname" ya know? >however, tagging isn't necessary, a naked tip works just fine, as dan >pointed out using an example of mine on thelist today we don't wanna see that, rudy. clothe your tips, please. >trick or treat >smell my feet >give me something good to eat! very odd because someone JUST said that to me when i gave them candy... damn kids... er... From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 31 18:25:22 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:25:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: <01c1626a$fbd23f80$4a4e149a@rudy> >What do you think of matt's idea to have: > > priv 2 = voting rights > > priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights me? i think it's great actually, it's right in line with the whole scheme as originally conceived the priv levels are inclusive so, "priv 2 = voting rights" simply clarifies what priv 2 is priv 3 was meant to include priv 2, as priv 4 includes 3 having an account on m.e.o would simply be another privilege (ouch) of priv 2 i guess an ambiguity might arise if we mix up two different kinds of voting -- votes from all 3000+ evolt "members" or votes from those "official voting members" who elect board members et cetera but since the latter hasn't happened yet, we're cool and the latter wouldn't happen on a voting app anyway From r937 at interlog.com Wed Oct 31 18:28:48 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:28:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? Message-ID: <01c1626c$50870320$4a4e149a@rudy> >>only dean would know > >Thanks for the vote of confidence. my apologies tip harvester mastery isn't on your r?sum?, though, so pardon me for not being up to date and even if i did know, i gots a mind like a sieve, eh? ;o) From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 31 18:29:03 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:29:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE Message-ID: <00f501c1626c$89faf580$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi folks, Starting a new thread here .. cos I dunno which one to reply to specifically. hehe Meant to write this yesterday actually, but ran out of time. A few things I want to bring up. The more I think about it, the less I understand how the Voting App would be best served on weo. Now, hear me out please before ya yell at me. ;) The problem as I see it is equating the User's PrivID with their voting privileges. There's not enough flexibility. (now, I just read Rudy's email .. but I'll go a bit further in detail.) When theprocess ran through their first set of votes, a few suggestions were made immediately, to change the voting application. One of those suggestions was that the votes be anonymous, i.e. don't list who has already voted. Doing this meant that even those not "allowed" to vote, could still vote, as no one would be the wiser that someone had voted who wasn't supposed to. (Not at all saying this happened tho, so please don't yell at me for saying it could happen.) However, what IS missing still, is the ability to say explicitly who gets to vote on what question. As I see it, and some of these items are still in the works, being discussed and may, in fact, never become a "reality", therefore, not necessary, there are the following "groups" of people to poll for various reasons: Admin only BOD only Admin and BOD only theProcess list members only theForum list members only theSite list members only (ok, not come up yet ;) Voting Members (which may or may not = theForum members) General Membership (currently defined at Priv = 1 in weo) Members (currently, sort of, maybe defined at Priv = 2 in weo, i.e. those with Member Pages) So, there are many different types of votes we may want to have. I don't see how w.e.o.'s current priv level is going to work for the voting application. (I guess we could use 2.2 as a the forum list member). I think we need to think about this a bit more and decide how best to give rights to those that are "allowed" to vote, and to keep out those that aren't. And, I'm not saying people will miliciasiously (sp??) vote on things they aren't supposed too, but rather by mistake and then the numbers aren't an accurate reflection. Now, the other issue... and for the life of me I can't remember if this was discussed at CF or not. Has it been taken into consideration or thought about, that users have different *.e.o. UserPriv levels? Or they could have in the future? For example, and this is just me assigning Priv Levels in a adhoc manner. These aren't for real (at this time). d.e.o. Simon should have God privs on this app .. he wrote it and he maintains it One day, others may volunteer to help ease the load and to administer certain groups (DMOZ style), and these individuals would have Admin privs. f.e.o. Matt should have (and does?) God privs on this app. Not sure who is going to help Admin the application, i.e. review/approve articles. If it will in fact be the same members that review/approve articles on w.e.o. or not. I don't see that it has to be the same. a.e.o. Gets even more complicated .. as there's an extra Priv level in there that doesn't exist on w.e.o. The Priv levels for a.e.o. are User, God, Developer. The User's on a.e.o. are (at this time) hand-selected and do include all of Admin plus several theSite members who participate in various projects for evolt. I have "God" Privs on a.e.o. but no where else. Actually, there is a fourth Priv Level implied on a.e.o. that being "Admin" which allows Admins to answer emails (however, I'm not sure there is a coded restriction in place there.) Anyway .. just a few things I wanted to bring up. Thoughts, ideas, suggestions.. welcome as always. Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Oct 31 18:34:10 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:34:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application References: Message-ID: <010201c1626d$406e1cc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | | > by the way, we still aren't using priv 2 anywhere | | What do you think of matt's idea to have: | | priv 2 = voting rights | | priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights | I just wrote a novel .. Priv levels, Voting App., UeUe ;) I did, however, forget those members with meo accounts. I personally don't equate members with meo accounts as being equal to those who are on theForum, nor to those who do/will have voting privs, nor to member pages. Just my two cents, Michele No kiddos allowed here .. too bad they aren't ... might keep the cats occupied for a couple hours. ;) From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 18:53:47 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:53:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE In-Reply-To: <00f501c1626c$89faf580$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > The problem as I see it is equating the User's PrivID with their voting > privileges. Not necessarily. Votes could range from something completely casual (requiring no membership or priv level), to something requiring priv 3. i.e., voting won't only be on admin-related issues. They may effect admins only, or the wider membership. And WEO is the site for the wider membership, right? > Admin only > BOD only > Admin and BOD only > theProcess list members only > theForum list members only > theSite list members only (ok, not come up yet ;) > Voting Members (which may or may not = theForum members) > General Membership (currently defined at Priv = 1 in weo) > Members (currently, sort of, maybe defined at Priv = 2 in weo, i.e. those > with Member Pages) theforum members won't vote. Voting members will vote. Any member of theforum wishing to vote will register their interest and be voted in or not. As MEO people run through the same check as future voting members (i.e., regarding level of contribution), it makes sense (to me), to run future MEO people through the same procedure. i.e., you apply for MEO, and you get voting rights. Or you apply for voting rights, and you get the option of an MEO account. So, I think we should give MEO people priv=2, and that's the voting priv. I see the current priv scheme as covering admin voting, voting members (includes MEO people), general membership, etc. In your scheme, it doesn't cover BoD votes or those specific to actual lists. Ideas on ways for handling that? i From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 18:59:09 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:59:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: <01c16268$fcb621c0$4a4e149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > of course, this makes sense only for privs 2 and up, as > priv 1 is wide open ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, of course. a visitor can gain a priv 1 simply by registering. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > by the way, we still aren't using priv 2 anywhere > > it was intended for "members" and -- in my opinion -- > should have some restriction, if only nominal > > right now dan approves m.e.o accounts, and this is the > type of thing that priv 2 would cover ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > ... although letting m.e.o account holders authorize > additional m.e.o accounts seems a little shaky ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< also agreed. there's no reason that priv 2 users couldn't have a vote and ask a priv 3 to take care of the results of that vote for them (ie, grant/remove priv 2 from another user). that's the way we've done it in the past. there's no reason we can't do that now. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 18:59:44 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 31 18:59:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: isaac > > > by the way, we still aren't using priv 2 anywhere > > What do you think of matt's idea to have: > > priv 2 = voting rights > > priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that was along the same lines as i was thinking. +1 .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From gnarly at punkass.com Wed Oct 31 19:14:51 2001 From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson) Date: Wed Oct 31 19:14:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: <00e701c16268$aba7b460$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <00dc01c16271$e6786180$0100a8c0@olly> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Foster" Subject: Re: [thesite] Tips on members page? > | yeh, correctly formatting your tip so that it's accurately picked up by > the > | harvester with your author name. > > If I'm not mistaken, two things are checked in order to attempt to verify a > tip author with a UserID on weo .. those being, the author as given within > the tags and/or the author of the email. > > Not sure if there's a "preference" given if the two checks don't equal tho. Hmmm... Maybe I'm just being awkward, but I'm signed up to evolt.org under one email, and theList by another :-) Cheers, Olly [gnarly] - www.gnarly.f2s.com - From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Oct 31 19:59:12 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Oct 31 19:59:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE In-Reply-To: <00f501c1626c$89faf580$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > The problem as I see it is equating the User's PrivID > with their voting privileges. There's not enough > flexibility. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i fail to see an existing necessity for more flexibility than we already have. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > When theprocess ran through their first set of votes, a > few suggestions were made immediately, to change the > voting application. One of those suggestions was that > the votes be anonymous, i.e. don't list who has already > voted. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< more importantly, *don't* show the results at all until the vote is closed. then, showing or not showing those who've voted so far is a non-issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Doing this meant that even those not "allowed" to vote, > could still vote, as no one would be the wiser that > someone had voted who wasn't supposed to. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it doesn't have to happen this way though. if there is enough cry for it we can develop the survey/voting application with the ability to either limit the survey/vote to an entire priv or even to a defined group of users/members. this sort of solution would allow us to guarantee that only the appropriate people can vote. the important thing is that we need to know what people want to see in it *before* we develop it. that will save everyone a ton of time trying to work in new things later on (because they'll hopefully already be accounted for from the beginning). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > However, what IS missing still, is the ability to say > explicitly who gets to vote on what question. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no reason that can't be developed in the w.e.o. implementation. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > As I see it, and some of these items are still in the > works, being discussed and may, in fact, never become > a "reality", therefore, not necessary, there are the > following "groups" of people to poll for various > reasons: > > [snip of excessive member breakdown] > > [...] I don't see how w.e.o.'s current priv level is > going to work for the voting application. [...] I > think we need to think about this a bit more and > decide how best to give rights to those that are > "allowed" to vote, and to keep out those that aren't. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< as i see it we only need to break it down based on priv. however, as i've already said, if the call is there to be able to assign votes/surveys to individual members, then i'm fine with that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Now, the other issue... and for the life of me I can't > remember if this was discussed at CF or not. Has it > been taken into consideration or thought about, that > users have different *.e.o. UserPriv levels? Or they > could have in the future? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< until ueue is built, the only thing that represents the community as a whole is w.e.o. therefore, it's the priv on w.e.o. that really matters. heck, the details of the concept of ueue or its possible implications on the rest of the sites aren't even worked out yet. until they are, it's a non-issue as there's no way we can't accurately account for how it might work. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From dmah at shaw.ca Wed Oct 31 20:05:56 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Wed Oct 31 20:05:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from "Warden, Matt" at Oct 31, 2001 05:46:55 PM Message-ID: <200111010205.TAA03154@alice.monkeyland.ca> Yes! You are correct sir! Ha! Ha! Specifically: 1) Script 1 parses messages from thelist mbox file and stores them in THELIST table. Key headers are extracted, i.e., the ones that Seth wanted pulled. One of the headers being the e-mail of the sender. 2) Script 2 parses the messages from THELIST table and stores the tips in THETIPS table. An e-mail lookup is done against weo members and inserts the user ID into the table if a matching e-mail is found. 3) The Cold Fusion template displays the author name as (in order of precedence): a) name as given in the tip's name attribute. b) name that is pulled from the e-mail address of the original message. Dean Warden, Matt writes: > What about an additional "list by author" feature in thetips section > and a link to it on the member/user page? > > It won't get all the tips, probably. It only links up the tips to > actual userids if there happens to be enough information (same email > address, etc.) in the harvested email/tip. > > Right dean? From dmah at shaw.ca Wed Oct 31 20:16:54 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Wed Oct 31 20:16:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <00dc01c16271$e6786180$0100a8c0@olly> from "Olly Hodgson" at Nov 01, 2001 01:09:43 AM Message-ID: <200111010216.TAA03206@alice.monkeyland.ca> It doesn't check which e-mail address that you are subscribed to thelist with. It checks the e-mail address that you send the message from and the e-mail address that you signed up to evolt.org with. In the case of a couple of your tips, you sent them from gnarly at punkass.com which is what you signed up to evolt.org with and so they are associated correctly. Dean Olly Hodgson writes: > Hmmm... Maybe I'm just being awkward, but I'm signed up to evolt.org > under one email, and theList by another :-)