From thelist at lists.evolt.org Mon Dec 24 00:01:15 2001 From: thelist at lists.evolt.org (Tip Harvester) Date: Mon Dec 24 00:01:15 2001 Subject: [thelist] Tip Harvest for the Week of Monday Dec 17, 2001 Message-ID: <200112240601.fBO61EJo020739@leo.evolt.org> The tip harvest for the Week of Monday Dec 17, 2001 has been added to the lists.evolt.org site. Get it at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/show/c/Week-of-Mon-20011217.html Week at a glance listing at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/week/c/Week-of-Mon-20011217.html Search the tips at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/ Harvest Summary --------------- Number of messages: 444 Number of tips : 13 Tip Authors ----------- .jeff (1) FayeC (1) Jay Blanchard (1) John Corry (2) Joshua Olson (1) Mark Howells (1) Miriam Frost (1) noah (1) rory (2) Scott Dexter (1) William (1) Tip Types --------- blocking advertisers (1) bookmarklet (1) ColdFusion and L10N (1) Data Source Names (1) Horizontal scrollbars in IE6 Framesets (1) Javascript Multiple Cases (1) JS and Forms (1) Lynx for MacOS X (1) Photoshop (1) phpmyadmin (1) Querying Test Databases (1) quoting a job (1) From mark at mountain.ch Mon Dec 24 03:55:37 2001 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Mon Dec 24 03:55:37 2001 Subject: [thelist] parseInt in javascript In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> From: "Richard Bennett" >> What I wanted was 0-9 to have a leading 0, so all numbers had two digits: >> >> pad = function(int) { >> return int=(int<10)?"0"+int:int >> } >> >> status=pad(3) >> >> will show 03 >> > > Jeff C (jeffc33 at hotmail.com) wrote: > > Be careful using parseInt() here. If the string starts with a 0 it > will be parsed as an octal number. I've had a very odd result when parsing some numbers using parseInt, in my case for checking whether a date was valid. I found that if you parseInt "08" or "09" (strings from a form field), you get 0. (Other numbers from 1 to 100 seem to be OK; This is on Mac, if that makes a difference). Regards Mark Howells Working in a Winter Wonderland http://www.mark.ac From wardsuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 24 06:19:33 2001 From: wardsuk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20Ward?=) Date: Mon Dec 24 06:19:33 2001 Subject: [thelist] Can you give me the best xmas present ever? javascript Message-ID: <20011224122102.43118.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> HELP 'make my day' Please could you help me I have a java-scriptthat keeps coming back & saying, location is not an object Please see below: I cannot figure out what is wrong, having now tried for 8 weeks, but search engines don't seem to like it. The web site sometimes works? See web site below: http://www.themonroecentre.com The one below does not work at all http://www.themonroecentre.co.uk keeps comming up with as below? I would be forever grateful if you could help. Mery Xmas to all john __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From mark at mountain.ch Mon Dec 24 06:25:33 2001 From: mark at mountain.ch (Mark Howells) Date: Mon Dec 24 06:25:33 2001 Subject: [thelist] Can you give me the best xmas present ever? javascript In-Reply-To: <20011224122102.43118.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I imagine that the error you're getting is actually 'objFrame.location is not an object' The problem lies in your definition of objFrame, which should read var objFrame=top.frames[frmName] Best regards for a merry Christmas and happy new year. Mark Howells Working in a Winter Wonderland http://www.mark.ac > John Ward (wardsuk at yahoo.co.uk) wrote: > From persist1 at io.com Mon Dec 24 06:31:40 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Mon Dec 24 06:31:40 2001 Subject: [thelist] Can you give me the best xmas present ever? javascript In-Reply-To: <20011224122102.43118.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, John Ward wrote: > HELP 'make my day' > > Please could you help me I have a java-scriptthat > keeps coming back & saying, > > location is not an object > > Please see below: > >
'this' relates to the element which currently has focus; in the example, the form field 'username'. Regards Mark Howells Working in a Winter Wonderland http://www.mark.ac From frederic.roland at roland-dev.com Thu Dec 27 11:00:45 2001 From: frederic.roland at roland-dev.com (Frédéric ROLAND) Date: Thu Dec 27 11:00:45 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that www.gandi.net recognize the customer as owner of the name. Fr?d?ric Roland -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ed McCarroll Sent: vendredi 21 d?cembre 2001 17:58 To: Thelist Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership Does anybody know of any domain name registrars whose terms of service specifically recognize the customer as owner of the name? If so, are they otherwise OK? Thanks, Ed McCarroll, mailto:Ed at ComSimplicity.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From nicole at parrot.ca Thu Dec 27 11:14:50 2001 From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot) Date: Thu Dec 27 11:14:50 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership References: <001901c18c4e$5724ece0$0100a8c0@UrDaDDY> Message-ID: <000101c18ef9$d8dc4640$7d28cb18@videotron.ca> > > Does anybody know of any domain name registrars whose terms > > of service specifically recognize the customer as owner of the name? As opposed to what? You mean I am not the owner of my domain name? I'm sorry, I'm jumping into this a bit late... Nicole From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com Thu Dec 27 11:14:51 2001 From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse) Date: Thu Dec 27 11:14:51 2001 Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... In-Reply-To: <001701c18c8a$4bd4d760$9f89c63d@chris> Message-ID: I normally use this: <% If objRS.Eof AND objRS.Bof Then %> Sorry, there are no comments about this photo <% Else %> what ever you want to do here <% End If %> -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Christian Anderson Sent: 24 December 2001 14:49 To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... Hi everyone, I am adding a thing to allow people to leave comments about the photos on my website, and have just thought of something that I dont know how to do :) If there are no comments for the photo, is there a way to make it say "there is nothing, be the first to comment!"? Like if the script looks in the database and finds there is no comments for that photo, can it just say that, and skip all the rest of the stuff? Is that clear as mud or what? heh... Im just too tired to write properly right now. I think that you will kinda understand what I mean though :) Christian Anderson URL: http://www.photokyo.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From zeeshan_paki at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 11:15:40 2001 From: zeeshan_paki at yahoo.com (Syed Zeeshan Haider) Date: Thu Dec 27 11:15:40 2001 Subject: [thelist] Window Attributes Message-ID: <003301c18efa$73ed8a40$c40587cb@pakcomp> Hello Everybody, In Windows environment, we double click the icon of a locally saved web page to open it. For such web page is it possible for JavaScript to control its window attributes (Toolbar, Address Bar etc.) when we open the web page by double clicking its icon. If it is possible then please tell me the JS code for this. I guess such script must be put in head section of the web page. Am I right? Thank you, Syed Zeeshan Haider. http://syedzeeshanhaider.faithweb.com/ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From webguru at vsnl.net Thu Dec 27 13:17:23 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Thu Dec 27 13:17:23 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228003953.01b217e0@203.197.12.4> I run Win2K professional and have ALL patches and service packs installed. (I check for updates every 3 days.) A problem has surfaced in the last couple of days. When I dial into my ISP, the Dialup Networking window goes from "Dialing" to "Verifying username and password" to "Registering your computer on the Network" - all like it should go. But at the last step, my PC's CPU usage shoots up to 100% (even if I have nothing else running) and when I check in Task Manager, it's "services.exe" (the app that manages connections) that's hogging the CPU. So what should be a 5 second step takes 1-2 minutes. The problem repeats itself when I right click the connection icon in the system tray and click on "Disconnect". The CPU use again shoot up to 100% for a minute or two before it disconnects. This problem was identified by Microsoft as a bug and resolved in Service Pack 1. I've got Service Pack 2 installed so I shouldn't have any issues. Any ideas on what could be causing this? TIA, Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From evolt at efeingold.com Thu Dec 27 14:48:22 2001 From: evolt at efeingold.com (josh) Date: Thu Dec 27 14:48:22 2001 Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... Message-ID: <20011227172442.31608.qmail@elara.affordablehost.com> It depends on the query you use to access the data which depends on the structure of the database. If the recordset is returned with multiple columns, you would want to test for a null value in the recordset of that column. Use the isnull function. e.g. if isnull(rs("test")) then response.write("Be the first to add a comment...") end if Josh From gsd at members.evolt.org Thu Dec 27 14:48:23 2001 From: gsd at members.evolt.org (gsd) Date: Thu Dec 27 14:48:23 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership In-Reply-To: <000101c18ef9$d8dc4640$7d28cb18@videotron.ca> Message-ID: it depends on your registrar. gandi explicity states that the registrant is the owner. netsol on the other hand says that you are just renting the name from them and they or who know who? owns it. there are various shades in between, some registrars say nothing. but gandi has the best TOS by far for com net and org AFAIK. george http://cyklotron.com/ cyklotron: a gringo in medellin, colombia PGP Key: http://www.cyklotron.com/about/pgpPublicKey > From: "Nicole Parrot" > As opposed to what? You mean I am not the owner of my domain name? > I'm sorry, I'm jumping into this a bit late... From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Dec 27 14:56:35 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Dec 27 14:56:35 2001 Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... References: <20011227172442.31608.qmail@elara.affordablehost.com> Message-ID: <001c01c18f19$35981c00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hey Josh, Is there an advantage to using your approach as opposed to the one Paul suggested, which was "If objRS.Eof AND objRS.Bof Then" ? Personally, I use Paul's approach .. but I'm always eager to learn new/better ways to doing things if they exist. What do others do/prefer ? Thanks, Michele (p.s. for some odd reason your message was held in the queue awaiting approval .. not sure why that is though .. mime type perhaps?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "josh" | It depends on the query you use to access the data which depends on the | structure of the database. | | If the recordset is returned with multiple columns, you would want to test | for a null value in the recordset of that column. Use the isnull function. | | e.g. | | if isnull(rs("test")) then | response.write("Be the first to add a comment...") | end if From jg3_savage at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 15:10:17 2001 From: jg3_savage at yahoo.com (Chad Savage) Date: Thu Dec 27 15:10:17 2001 Subject: [thelist] [OT - kinda] Good Email Client for Lists? [Was: Offtopic: Outlook - dumb question] References: Message-ID: <003301c18f1b$4ef8c620$6601a8c0@mcleodusa.net> Rather than fight with OL or OLXpress anymore, can somebody recommend a good, solid Win98 email client that lends itself to the kind of sorting and filtering one needs when one belongs to a number of discussion lists? I'm ready to try something else... Thankee! Chad _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vicwooten at eaglewebservices.com Thu Dec 27 15:42:33 2001 From: vicwooten at eaglewebservices.com (Vic Wooten) Date: Thu Dec 27 15:42:33 2001 Subject: [thelist] [OT - kinda] Good Email Client for Lists? [Was: Offtopic: Outlook - dumb question] References: <003301c18f1b$4ef8c620$6601a8c0@mcleodusa.net> Message-ID: <000601c18f1f$a2ef8990$0200a8c0@eaglebmv4x6wq9> Chad, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Savage" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:13 PM Subject: [thelist] [OT - kinda] Good Email Client for Lists? [Was: Offtopic: Outlook - dumb question] > Rather than fight with OL or OLXpress anymore, can somebody recommend a > good, solid Win98 email client that lends itself to the kind of sorting and > filtering one needs when one belongs to a number of discussion lists? > > I'm ready to try something else... Try Pegasus. http://www.pmail.com/ Vic > Thankee! > > Chad From bharoche at usa.net Thu Dec 27 16:02:15 2001 From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche) Date: Thu Dec 27 16:02:15 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228003953.01b217e0@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <002601c18f22$64a2dea0$9865fea9@Laptop> Hi Madhu, I had a similar problem with Cold Fusion hogging all my resources but that was related to the ntconsole.exe as the problem. Here's a Google groups search result that might lead you to an answer. http://groups.google.com/groups?sourceid=navclient&q=services%2Eexe+100%25+c pu (watch the wrap) HTH. Regards, Bob Haroche O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s http://www.OnPointSolutions.com From jg3_savage at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 16:13:04 2001 From: jg3_savage at yahoo.com (Chad Savage) Date: Thu Dec 27 16:13:04 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership References: Message-ID: <001901c18f1a$bdbebc00$6601a8c0@mcleodusa.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fr?d?ric ROLAND" > > I think that www.gandi.net recognize the customer as owner of the name. > > Fr?d?ric Roland ...just as long as you speak French? ======================================================================== "Due to a configuration error of your software, our server was not able to give you the document in your language. To be able to use content negotiation, please correctly configure your browser by specifying your language. With Netscape, you need to go to the following menus : Edit, Preferences, Navigator, Languages. With Internet Explorer, please go to : Tools (ou Extras), Internet Options, Languages. By specifying the language in which you want to see the web pages, our server will be able to give you the English or French version (according to your choices) of documents. For more details on this standard : http://www.debian.org/intro/cn.en " ======================================================================== ...or am I missing something? Chad _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From scotts at rci-nv.com Thu Dec 27 16:13:05 2001 From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz) Date: Thu Dec 27 16:13:05 2001 Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Michele Foster [mailto:michele at wordpro.on.ca] > > Hey Josh, > > Is there an advantage to using your approach as opposed to > the one Paul > suggested, which was > > "If objRS.Eof AND objRS.Bof Then" > > Personally, I use Paul's approach .. but I'm always eager to learn > new/better ways to doing things if they exist. > What do others do/prefer ? This depends entirely on the query you use and your database structure. If your database has a tblComments and your query is "SELECT * FROM tblComments WHERE ArticleID = 5;", then your recordset will have only comments in it. And, if there are no comments, objRS.EOF wil be True. If, though, you have a simpler database structure, where there is a tblArticles and the comments are stored in one of the fields, then you'll want to use Josh's method. Your recordset won't be empty; there will still be the Title and Author and the text of the article in the recordset, so objRS.EOF would be False. But, the comments field would be empty. Then Josh's method will just check the one field, rather than the whole recordset. Josh's method depends on the database you are using, too. Some databases (like MS Access) store empty text fields as a Zero-Length String, not Null. IsNull would return False, so instead you'd have to use: If rs("Comments") = "" Then.... From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Dec 27 17:19:55 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Dec 27 17:19:55 2001 Subject: [thelist] ASP Question: If there is nothing to pull from the database... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 27, Scott Schrantz had something to say about RE: [thelist] ASP... > If, though, you have a simpler database structure, where there is a >tblArticles and the comments are stored in one of the fields, But, you'd never do that, would you? it is not a good thing to try to stick a 1-many relationship into a single table. > Josh's method depends on the database you are using, too. Some >databases (like MS Access) store empty text fields as a Zero-Length String, >not Null. IsNull would return False, so instead you'd have to use: If >rs("Comments") = "" Then.... This isn't totally accurate. You have to set a field to allow zero-length strings. That just means that "" is a valid value for the field. You can still insert NULL. If you don't check the "allow zero-length strings" checkbox, all that means is that you can't insert an empty string. It's up to your code whether you want to treat "" the same as a NULL value. If you can avoid returning a recordset from the database tables, that's generally a good thing. So, if all you're doing is spitting out a "See comments" link, but you only want to display it if there are comments for that article, try something like this: SELECT 1 FROM comment WHERE articleid=123; Why 'SELECT 1'? If you are just looking for a boolean response like whether or not there are comments for article number 123, the values in the recordset is irrelevant, just whether or not there IS something returned. So, it's generally faster to return a literal like 1 than a value from a table. THis means that you might get a resultset like this: +-------+ | 1 | +-------+ | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | +-------+ But, that's okay if all you want to know is whether there are comments for that article. Hell, if you can get a recordcount of the resultset in your language of choice (without cycling through the resultset with a counter), then you know exactly how many comments there are (4 in this case). So, your pseudo-code would be: if resultset.hasRecords() then print 'View Comments (' + resultset.recordcount() +')' else print 'no comments for this article' end if Here, that code would spit out: View Comments (4) All this without opening the recordset at all. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From lawrence at carriere.uni.cc Thu Dec 27 20:31:26 2001 From: lawrence at carriere.uni.cc (Lawrence Carriere) Date: Thu Dec 27 20:31:26 2001 Subject: [thelist] dbtools Message-ID: <001401c18f48$4d46fe00$39f44f18@ed.shawcable.net> Hello! Does anyone know the correct procedure to connect to one's Evolt MySQL database via dbTools? Thanks, Lawrence From pkaulbak at idirect.ca Thu Dec 27 21:32:34 2001 From: pkaulbak at idirect.ca (Peter Kaulback) Date: Thu Dec 27 21:32:34 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228003953.01b217e0@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227222649.02bbcd78@mail.idirect.ca> At 12:47 AM 12/28/2001 +0530, you wrote: >I run Win2K professional and have ALL patches and service packs installed. >(I check for updates every 3 days.) > >A problem has surfaced in the last couple of days. When I dial into my >ISP, the Dialup Networking window goes from "Dialing" to "Verifying >username and password" to "Registering your computer on the Network" - all >like it should go. > >But at the last step, my PC's CPU usage shoots up to 100% (even if I have >nothing else running) and when I check in Task Manager, it's >"services.exe" (the app that manages connections) that's hogging the CPU. >So what should be a 5 second step takes 1-2 minutes. > >The problem repeats itself when I right click the connection icon in the >system tray and click on "Disconnect". The CPU use again shoot up to 100% >for a minute or two before it disconnects. How long have you had win2k running since the last reformat/reinstall? Do you have the "RPC locator" service running as well? If so, then disable it. If it's not a server then I would recommend a reinstallation. HTH Peter Kaulback From stephane.deschamps at francetelecom.com Fri Dec 28 09:35:59 2001 From: stephane.deschamps at francetelecom.com (DESCHAMPS =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane?= DvSI/SICoR) Date: Fri Dec 28 09:35:59 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01ee01c18f79$89b3c7c0$289bf8c1@SDeschamatnw> > it depends on your registrar. gandi explicity states that the > registrant is > the owner. netsol on the other hand says that you are just > renting the name > from them and they or who know who? owns it. there are > various shades in > between, some registrars say nothing. > > but gandi has the best TOS by far for com net and org AFAIK. Yeah, it's because of its history and philosophy, and it's good IMHO. I won't bother all of you with the details here but if someone's interested in knowing gandi a little better I'm ready to explain via direct email. From gsd at members.evolt.org Fri Dec 28 09:36:02 2001 From: gsd at members.evolt.org (gsd) Date: Fri Dec 28 09:36:02 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership Message-ID: i just loaded it and it came up in english. but then i have english specified as my default language. looks like the language selection script is choking on your browser. try following the instructions to get it to work or use a different browser? strange tho, that that would happen... george http://cyklotron.com/ cyklotron: a gringo in medellin, colombia PGP Key: http://www.cyklotron.com/about/pgpPublicKey > From: "Chad Savage" > With Netscape, you need to go to the following menus : Edit, Preferences, > Navigator, Languages. > With Internet Explorer, please go to : Tools (ou Extras), Internet Options, > Languages. > > By specifying the language in which you want to see the web pages, our > server will be able to give you the English or French version (according to > your choices) of documents. From djc at members.evolt.org Fri Dec 28 11:10:53 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Dec 28 11:10:53 2001 Subject: [thelist] dbtools References: <001401c18f48$4d46fe00$39f44f18@ed.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <3C2C8FA4.2060102@members.evolt.org> Hi Lawrence - Currently the only method for connecting to a members.evolt.org MySQL database is through phpMyAdmin, which is already set up and ready to go at http://members.evolt.org/phpMyAdmin Connecting to MySQL from outside evolts network(as it looks like you tried last night) isn't allowed for security reasons.. Let me know if you have any other questions :) .djc. Lawrence Carriere wrote: > Hello! > > Does anyone know the correct procedure to connect to one's Evolt MySQL > database via dbTools? > > Thanks, Lawrence From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu Fri Dec 28 11:10:58 2001 From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon) Date: Fri Dec 28 11:10:58 2001 Subject: [thelist] Apache and SSL Message-ID: <3C2C8AFD.EAC1ECE4@sdsumus.sdstate.edu> Dear evolt, We are currently running Apache on one of our web servers, and we need to install a security certificate on it. My question is, do I need Apache SSL for that? I'm currently running the plain vanilla flavor of the web server. Also, we are planning on going to a clustered server. Will we need to purchase more certificates for each cluster? Or will we need only one since the data is shared by each node? I really appreciate any information you can send this way. Thanks. Minh Lee Goon ------------- Web Administrator Information Technology Services South Dakota State University Brookings, South Dakota From cewing at mooremedical.com Fri Dec 28 11:29:26 2001 From: cewing at mooremedical.com (Ewing, Christopher) Date: Fri Dec 28 11:29:26 2001 Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] Message-ID: We are using CFLocation pretty extensively throughout our site and recently we have seen occasions where a user's browser will hang in what looks like the CFLocation process. I've seen suggestions to use CFHeader instead with a 0 refresh, but this is a bit unsightly. Are there any other methods that can be used to redirect a person to another page inside CF (without using Javascript)? From athenaj at rogers.com Fri Dec 28 11:51:22 2001 From: athenaj at rogers.com (Athena Janiszewski) Date: Fri Dec 28 11:51:22 2001 Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why not just use a meta refresh tag? Athena > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ewing, Christopher > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 9:00 AM > To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org' > Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] > > > We are using CFLocation pretty extensively throughout our site > and recently > we have seen occasions where a user's browser will hang in what looks like > the CFLocation process. > > I've seen suggestions to use CFHeader instead with a 0 refresh, > but this is > a bit unsightly. > > Are there any other methods that can be used to redirect a person > to another > page inside CF (without using Javascript)? > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From chris at fuseware.com Fri Dec 28 12:07:54 2001 From: chris at fuseware.com (Chris Evans) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:07:54 2001 Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c18fc1$1e748f60$8f5f800a@VSCLTCOL0054> There isn't really a good substitute for CFLOCATION, other than possibly a CFHEADER as you already mentioned. I wonder what might be causing a browser to hang using CFLOCATION. I've used it for years with no problems. All it does is send a 302 redirect header to the browser and abort processing. Is it possible some of the code around the CFLOCATION is causing your problems? Are you possibly trying to use CFCOOKIE before the CFLOCATION? That is a known issue with CFLOCATION - the cookie never gets set. Chris Evans chris at fuseware.com http://www.fuseware.com -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Ewing, Christopher Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 9:00 AM To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org' Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] We are using CFLocation pretty extensively throughout our site and recently we have seen occasions where a user's browser will hang in what looks like the CFLocation process. I've seen suggestions to use CFHeader instead with a 0 refresh, but this is a bit unsightly. Are there any other methods that can be used to redirect a person to another page inside CF (without using Javascript)? -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From djc at members.evolt.org Fri Dec 28 12:24:01 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:24:01 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 From: Amy Gilliland To: Evolt Subject: site header and logo I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light grey-green but it's not quite right. any ideas???? some examples and screenshot http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm /************************************** Amy Gilliland GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. Web Developer/Programmer agilliland at geosolutions.com http://www.geosolutions.com http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com From evolt at spinhead.com Fri Dec 28 12:32:03 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:32:03 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: Message-ID: <002701c18fc4$53bc83f0$3b0a000a@HEISENBERG> Something about the swooping curve in the second one appeals to me. After a minute, it's almost obvious it's just a cutout for the logo, but at first it looks like a design element. We have the same issue, and we've always just lived with the great expanses of whiteness. I like this idea better. spinhead _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ They're mixing with the population A virus wearing pumps and pearls ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 10:24 AM Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 > From: Amy Gilliland > To: Evolt > Subject: site header and logo > > I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. > > The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content > will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) > > I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light > grey-green but it's not quite right. > > any ideas???? > > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm > > > /************************************** > Amy Gilliland > GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. > Web Developer/Programmer > agilliland at geosolutions.com > http://www.geosolutions.com > http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com > From persist1 at io.com Fri Dec 28 12:36:34 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:36:34 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Daniel J. Cody wrote: > any ideas???? > > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm We-ell, my vote is for the second header displayed, with the following changes: 1. Put a heavy outline around the part of the upper-left ellipse that's inside the notional canvas, suggestive of a drop shadow without actually being one. 2. Saturate the rest of the greens. 3. Enlarge the nav type slightly, and reset it in mixed case. 4. Change the color of the tab holding those links from burgundy to a terracotta (read: suggestive of colors one might see on a topo map), perhaps with embellishment (faux contours?) in the same vein. Preserve the existing contrast. Whee - too many times I watched GIS specialists scratch their heads about how to get their data on the Web, back when it was too primitive for anything to be genuinely affordable. Good luck, -- Ben Henick Web Author At-Large Managing Editor http://www.io.com/persist1/ http://www.digital-web.com/ persist1 at io.com bmh at digital-web.com -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?" "I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid." "We will disguise ourselves as a cow." "Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!" From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu Fri Dec 28 12:45:26 2001 From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:45:26 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3C2CAEAE.63611EFD@sdsumus.sdstate.edu> I vote for the fouth one. With the content bordered at the top and left by the navigation links, the content is somewhat separated from the header, giving it an illusion of layers. I think the the top left logo should be larger. I would suggest resizing it so that the exclamation mark is as high as the header and the text size equally as high less the height of the red navigation bar. Let it overlap the text and dotted arrow. > any ideas???? > > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm Minh Lee Goon ------------- Web Administrator Information Technology Services South Dakota State University Brookings, South Dakota From amccoy at goodmanct.com Fri Dec 28 13:01:11 2001 From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan) Date: Fri Dec 28 13:01:11 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B33622EF3C@admin.admin.goodmanct.com> Header # 2. Alan > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com Fri Dec 28 13:08:20 2001 From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com) Date: Fri Dec 28 13:08:20 2001 Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920041261FB@arnold.bedrock.com> Christopher noted: +| we have seen occasions where a user's browser will hang in +| what looks like +| the CFLocation process. This happens to me when I do complex redirects... a CFLOCATION to a page which does a CFLOCATION to the previous page -- in effect a run-away loop -- consistently hangs the browser... What sometimes causes the occasional behavior is a conditional branch to the CFLOCATION, like, for instance, I have a login page which sends credentials to a security module, which does a CFLOCATION to the login page when credentials don't pass muster. I had set the cookie wrong once, or something, and the login page would subsequently hit the security module with the bad creds, and start the vicious loop again... the browser would hang only if there were bad creds stored. After I introduced code to clean this up, it got better! From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com Fri Dec 28 13:26:02 2001 From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt) Date: Fri Dec 28 13:26:02 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3C2CC766.5FB832D5@lightbulbpress.com> #2 "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 > From: Amy Gilliland > To: Evolt > Subject: site header and logo > > I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. > > The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content > will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) > > I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light > grey-green but it's not quite right. > > any ideas???? > > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm > > /************************************** > Amy Gilliland > GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. > Web Developer/Programmer > agilliland at geosolutions.com > http://www.geosolutions.com > http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From seahorse at inreach.com Fri Dec 28 15:03:57 2001 From: seahorse at inreach.com (C Williams) Date: Fri Dec 28 15:03:57 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: Message-ID: <001101c18fe3$13428800$e09efea9@dual700> My 2 cents: I like #2. I do not like gradients like in #4. For chenages, I would not stretch out consulting under GeoSolutions. I would right align it under the name and give geosolutions name a 2d or 3d effect to bring it out of the background.. I like the different colors for the logo and what they do(the black and green)...it stands out nicely, but I don't necessarily like the different shades of green together on the page...too many colors. If you did the title (logo) and the "solutions for a spatial world" in the same shade of green I think it might tie it together. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 10:24 AM Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 > From: Amy Gilliland > To: Evolt > Subject: site header and logo > > I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. > > The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content > will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) > > I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light > grey-green but it's not quite right. > > any ideas???? > > some examples and screenshot > > http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm > > > /************************************** > Amy Gilliland > GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. > Web Developer/Programmer > agilliland at geosolutions.com > http://www.geosolutions.com > http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From frederic.roland at roland-dev.com Fri Dec 28 16:14:01 2001 From: frederic.roland at roland-dev.com (Frédéric ROLAND) Date: Fri Dec 28 16:14:01 2001 Subject: [thelist] Amazon associate tools ? In-Reply-To: <001901c18f1a$bdbebc00$6601a8c0@mcleodusa.net> Message-ID: I'm looking for tools or source code to use with my Amazon Associate account, does somebody know of something interesting ? Regards, Fr?d?ric Roland From r937 at interlog.com Fri Dec 28 16:28:53 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Fri Dec 28 16:28:53 2001 Subject: [thelist] [Cold Fusion Question] Message-ID: <01c18fc2$475ba3e0$1c4c149a@rudy> > Are there any other methods that can be used to redirect a person > to another page inside CF (without using Javascript)? hi chris this may not fit your current problem ("using CFLocation pretty extensively throughout our site"), but the answer your question is yes cfinclude can accomplish a "redirection" in the sense that you can choose the page that you want to "end up" on every time i've seen cflocation, its action has been predicated upon some decision, usually in a -- e.g. has the user logged in? if not, cflocation to login page you can take exactly the same strategy but use cfinclude instead, to cfinclude the login page rather than "going" there if you see what i mean ;o) rudy From poojie at dccnet.com Fri Dec 28 16:45:09 2001 From: poojie at dccnet.com (Daryl Grant) Date: Fri Dec 28 16:45:09 2001 Subject: [thelist] Apache and SSL In-Reply-To: <3C2C8AFD.EAC1ECE4@sdsumus.sdstate.edu> Message-ID: <000001c150a8$8c4bf300$0300a8c0@local.solutious.com> Quote:------------------------- We are currently running Apache on one of our web servers, and we need to install a security certificate on it. My question is, do I need Apache SSL for that? ------------------------------- I am not sure if the process is any different for Windows, but under *nix (FreeBSD) the installation of Apache-SSL (http://www.apache-ssl.org/) took care of the certificate creation. You _will_ need to install some form of SSL for your secure server. Apache-SSL is one choice, but I belive you could also install mod_ssl which will perform a similar function. Depending on how your network is setup you will also have to make sure port 443 is accessible open to apache since this is the port for secure transmissions. Unfortunately I cannot help you with the clustered server aspect -- I have no such experience :] Daryl From Anthony at Baratta.com Fri Dec 28 17:14:28 2001 From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta) Date: Fri Dec 28 17:14:28 2001 Subject: [thelist] Apache and SSL In-Reply-To: <3C2C8AFD.EAC1ECE4@sdsumus.sdstate.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228151311.03116c88@baratta.com> At 07:08 AM 12/28/2001, you wrote: >Dear evolt, >We are currently running Apache on one of our web servers, and we need >to install a security certificate on it. My question is, do I need >Apache SSL for that? I'm currently running the plain vanilla flavor of >the web server. I use Apache, mod_ssl and OpenSSL. You'll need to recompile Apache to make them all work together. >Also, we are planning on going to a clustered server. Will we need to >purchase more certificates for each cluster? Or will we need only one >since the data is shared by each node? I don't know anything about clustered services. Can't help here, sorry. --- Anthony Baratta President Keyboard Jockeys "Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative." From sales at iibiz.com Fri Dec 28 20:56:59 2001 From: sales at iibiz.com (iibiz) Date: Fri Dec 28 20:56:59 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ Message-ID: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Hi All! Haven't written for a while 'cuz I've been busy, busy. One of my clients, who is very demanding by the way and expects immediate turn around on updates, then proceeds to take anywhere from 30 to 60 days to pay. I'm done messing around with this, and want to post their changes to the "temporary" file that I have set up for approval, and then tell them that they won't be posted to their site until payment is made. I know they're gonna have a cow, but I don't think this is a very unusual practice - is it? What kind of payment terms do you all demand? Sandy From john at neoncowboy.com Fri Dec 28 21:18:35 2001 From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry) Date: Fri Dec 28 21:18:35 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Message-ID: |What kind of payment terms do you all demand? | |Sandy 50% deposit to lift a finger (beyond the proposal stage) means I get 1/2 before I even turn on the computer. Balance due on 'completion'. My contract defines 'completion' as the client giving approval to the final deliverables (code, images, data, etc). My clients are usually pretty reasonable and I can put their stuff live while I wait for a check. If I had a client like yours, I'd respond the way you are responding, except I'd post a watermarked screenshot to keep them from stealing/using my work. The more experienced I get, the less tolerance I have for lame clients. I'm almost always working so cheap that they deserve no special favors or anything like that, and they NEVER will get me to finance their development projects for 1-2 months, unless I'm collecting interest. hth, jpc From sales at iibiz.com Fri Dec 28 21:26:13 2001 From: sales at iibiz.com (iibiz) Date: Fri Dec 28 21:26:13 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ References: Message-ID: <00a701c19019$50f37840$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> > The more experienced I get, the less tolerance I have for lame clients. I'm > almost always working so cheap that they deserve no special favors My sentiments exactly! Thanks for your input, Sandy From seyon at delime.com Fri Dec 28 21:27:04 2001 From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon) Date: Fri Dec 28 21:27:04 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011228232249.00a41d08@mail.delime.com> At 12/28/2001 09:02 PM, you wrote: >I'm done messing around with this, and want to post their changes to >the "temporary" file that I have set up for approval, and then tell them >that they won't be posted to their site until payment is made. I know >they're gonna have a cow, but I don't think this is a very unusual >practice - is it? If the "temporary" version is fully functional, and you can guarantee that nothing will fall out of place in the shift to the real live version, no, I think that is perfectly acceptable. >What kind of payment terms do you all demand? All money paid within two weeks of the bill date. Stated at the outset. Most ordinary companies here who offer credit allow payment in 30 days, so far have not had any complaints about us allowing 14. regards. -marc From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 01:24:50 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 01:24:50 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Message-ID: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> > From: "iibiz" > > One of my clients, who is very demanding by the way and expects > immediate turn around on updates, then proceeds to take anywhere from > 30 to 60 days to pay. I'm done messing around with this, and want to > post their changes to the "temporary" file that I have set up for > approval, and then tell them that they won't be posted to their site > until payment is made. I know they're gonna have a cow, but I don't > think this is a very unusual practice - is it? i think that's the kind of practice that fosters anything but a good relationship with the client... holding their work hostage is how it can be seen on their end, and it removes any trust... try a different approach, one that can benefit you both... how many hours a month do you spend doing work for them (on average)? take that number, put together a reduced hourly rate, and offer them a pre-payment deal... so, let's say you spend 40 hours a month on their site... offer them a deal where they buy 40 hours every month at, say, 10% off... you do all your work up to 40 hours, and then bill them as normal (or halt work until they approve it, etc.)... this way, you get your money in advance, and they save some money (also makes it easier for them to budget it, and they're on a regular payment schedule, which makes it much easier to get checks out)... that discount should be based on admin time you would normally spend to track down your money... so if you spend 4 hours a month on the phone normally, even selling your 40 hour block at 10% off, you come out ahead since you would no longer be wasting 4 hours a month tracking down checks and managing your client... explaining it this way to your client (in nicer terms) shows them that you value them as a client, still want to offer same-day turn- around on tasks, and they save a bit on your rates... it's win-win, and no deal is a good deal unless both sides win... remember, this is the web... if you insist on holding up changes for payment, that client will walk when someone comes along who can offer the immediate service they want... i hate to say this about the other feedback you've gotten, but you're probably better off disregarding it... > What kind of payment terms do you all demand? 30 days, which is pretty normal... and if someone demanded i pay before they hand over my work, i'd hire someone else with whom i can have a more trust-based relationship... From bharoche at usa.net Sat Dec 29 01:44:23 2001 From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche) Date: Sat Dec 29 01:44:23 2001 Subject: [thelist] Forcing IE to download a file rather than displaying it? Message-ID: <001701c1903c$a1952c30$9865fea9@Laptop> I need to create a web space where my client can upload Word (.doc) files and Acrobat (.pdf) files. When the user clicks on a file link, it should force the browser to respond with a "save file" dialog box. Obviously, this is simple if the files are first zipped/stuffed, but reasons not relevant here that's not an option. The domain is virtually hosted on unix/Apache 1.3.6. I've played around with .htaccess to over-ride the mime type for these files such as: AddType application/octet-stream .doc While this works for Netscape, Internet Explorer 6 PC (and I assume earlier versions as well) insist on still opening the Word documents inside the browser. Is there any way, other than zipping/stuffing to over-ride this behavior and force a "save as..." prompt? Thanks in advance. Regards, Bob Haroche O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s http://www.OnPointSolutions.com ____________________________ O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s P.O. Box 694 Occidental, Ca 95465 Tel: 707.874.2710 Fax: 707.874.2716 http://www.OnPointSolutions.com From gozz at gozz.com Sat Dec 29 01:57:16 2001 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Sat Dec 29 01:57:16 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> References: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> Message-ID: >that client will walk when someone comes along who can >offer the immediate service they want... Hell, if a client "walks" because you're down on them for not paying, so be it ... warn the next victim if you can. My contract says I own the work until final payment has been made and my hosting contracts states when I can take down the site due to non-payment ... I've acted on those clauses twice - still have one client and the other one paid up and is now hosted on a free service ... fine with me. This is something I've seen before in independent designers ... it's a trap to think clients are so precious that you can't stand up for yourself ... your clients are likely more business savvy than you so you have to remind yourself that a client that doesn't pay is in almost all cases no better than a blank slot in your client list. Leave the working for nothing thing to musicians. I'm now in a sucky situation where I am owed money for a project that was still in the "proof of concept" stage ... the only action I can take is telling them I'll delete the files on my hard drive and charge again for recreating them if they don't pay up ... and that's exactly what I'll do if the response to my third "I haven't received your check yet" email doesn't result in a situation that satisfies me. -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ __________________________________________ From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 02:10:43 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 02:10:43 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: References: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> > From: Erik Mattheis > > >that client will walk when someone comes along who can > >offer the immediate service they want... > > Hell, if a client "walks" because you're down on them for not paying, > so be it ... warn the next victim if you can. that wasn't my argument at all... if you have a client for web work, and you *cannot* or *will not* provide same day service when they request it, then they'll look elsewhere... the context of the post was that this client *does* expect it, and creating a billing arrangement that still allows this *and* protects the developer (while benefitting the client) is always worth looking at... i fear you got the completely wrong idea of my post (as evidenced by the only two lines you chose to quote)... > My contract says I own the work until final payment has been made and > my hosting contracts states when I can take down the site due to > non-payment ... I've acted on those clauses twice - still have one > client and the other one paid up and is now hosted on a free service > ... fine with me. that's one way to do it... i base my approach on the client... those who don't pay don't get their work until they pay (final product), those who do pay get their work ahead of payment... any one approach (always hand it over, or always hold it) won't handle all clients, and trying to fit all clients into the model won't do anyone any favors in the long run... > This is something I've seen before in independent designers ... it's a > trap to think clients are so precious that you can't stand up for > yourself ... your clients are likely more business savvy than you so > you have to remind yourself that a client that doesn't pay is in > almost all cases no better than a blank slot in your client list. > > Leave the working for nothing thing to musicians. um, is this a response to my post? i'm not an independent, i run a firm... and my post suggested exactly the opposite of this... offer the client a deal on pre-payment -- saves them money, cuts out hassle of chasing down payment for you... my other post goes into more detail based on the situation cited... again, i think you've completely misinterpreted my post... nowhere do i suggest buying the client or taking it in the can... > I'm now in a sucky situation where I am owed money for a project that > was still in the "proof of concept" stage ... the only action I can > take is telling them I'll delete the files on my hard drive and charge > again for recreating them if they don't pay up ... and that's exactly > what I'll do if the response to my third "I haven't received your > check yet" email doesn't result in a situation that satisfies me. -- deleting the files doesn't help you at all... this is a case where prepayment is clearly a must... without knowing the situation, however, i wouldn't purport to know the right way to fix it... From persist1 at io.com Sat Dec 29 02:31:19 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Sat Dec 29 02:31:19 2001 Subject: [thelist] Forcing IE to download a file rather than displaying it? In-Reply-To: <001701c1903c$a1952c30$9865fea9@Laptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Haroche wrote: > I need to create a web space where my client can upload Word (.doc) files > and Acrobat (.pdf) files. When the user clicks on a file link, it should > force the browser to respond with a "save file" dialog box. The easiest way out is to provide instructions to select ("Save Target As...") from the context menu. Otherwise, if Word or Word Reader (et. al.) is installed, IE/Win will see that filename extension, go "oh! I can display that file inline!" and proceed to do it. There are hacks to get around this, but if there're any that aren't more trouble than they're worth I dunno what they are. P.S. This (mis)feature is one of the bigger security holes in Windows. -- Ben Henick Web Author At-Large Managing Editor http://www.io.com/persist1/ http://www.digital-web.com/ persist1 at io.com bmh at digital-web.com -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?" "I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid." "We will disguise ourselves as a cow." "Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!" From zloui at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 02:32:28 2001 From: zloui at yahoo.com (Loui Zivkovic) Date: Sat Dec 29 02:32:28 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Amy, Header #2 is great, do not move anything, just change colours: On SOLUTIONS ... use same colour like title Services - ... On geosolutions.com use grey same like on your left menu Loui, -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody Sent: December 28, 2001 10:24 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 From: Amy Gilliland To: Evolt Subject: site header and logo I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light grey-green but it's not quite right. any ideas???? some examples and screenshot http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm /************************************** Amy Gilliland GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. Web Developer/Programmer agilliland at geosolutions.com http://www.geosolutions.com http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gozz at gozz.com Sat Dec 29 03:12:44 2001 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:12:44 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> References: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> Message-ID: > > From: Erik Mattheis >> >> >that client will walk when someone comes along who can >> >offer the immediate service they want... >> >> Hell, if a client "walks" because you're down on them for not paying, >> so be it ... warn the next victim if you can. > >that wasn't my argument at all... if you have a client for web work, >and you *cannot* or *will not* provide same day service when they >request it, then they'll look elsewhere... > >the context of the post was that this client *does* expect it, and >creating a billing arrangement that still allows this *and* protects >the developer (while benefitting the client) is always worth looking >at... I thought about writing "in the context of this post" but didn't ... agreed, giving a discounted rate can build client rapport - BUT if anything, a more appropriate response to a client needing immediate updates would be a surcharge, not a discounted rate ... the more so if the client is slow in paying. I mark my development updates payable upon receipt and won't send a reminder for one month ... but it seems that this is an ongoing problem for Sandy - it doesn't seem that the client values her/his work - taking down the site would be a poignant motivation for the client to give some needed respect. I guess my main point is that largely, people treat you as you you expect them to. And not taking decisive action in response to non payment sends the signal that it's ok to be lax in cutting the check. >that's one way to do it... i base my approach on the client... those >who don't pay don't get their work until they pay (final product), >those who do pay get their work ahead of payment... any one >approach (always hand it over, or always hold it) won't handle all >clients, and trying to fit all clients into the model won't do anyone >any favors in the long run... Well, it seems like we're on the same page ... clients are different ... the client Sandy speaks of is troublesome ... I was just encouraging her (him?) (are you a her or him?) (does it matter?) (am I being to sensitive to feminists who object to the use of "him" when referring to someone of an indeterminate sex?) (should I just use "they" instead as is suggested by some influential linguists?) ... to take down the site if the non payment was unbearable. The goal of the post is to find suggestions for ways to get paid ... and accepting partial payment is really selling yourself short ... the ability to take down the site is some powerful ammo that should be used when appropriate. And if this issue is important enough to post here, I say do it. > > This is something I've seen before in independent designers ... it's a >> trap to think clients are so precious that you can't stand up for >> yourself ... your clients are likely more business savvy than you so >> you have to remind yourself that a client that doesn't pay is in >> almost all cases no better than a blank slot in your client list. >> >> Leave the working for nothing thing to musicians. > >um, is this a response to my post? i'm not an independent, i run a >firm... and my post suggested exactly the opposite of this... offer >the client a deal on pre-payment -- saves them money, cuts out >hassle of chasing down payment for you... No, wasn't a response to your post, but the thread ... great if you offer a discount on prepayment, but myself, as an independent, the flow isn't great enough to make having less money this month better than more money next month. I think I remember that Sandy is independent or a hus/wife team. > > I'm now in a sucky situation where I am owed money for a project that >> was still in the "proof of concept" stage ... the only action I can >> take is telling them I'll delete the files on my hard drive and charge >> again for recreating them if they don't pay up ... and that's exactly >> what I'll do if the response to my third "I haven't received your >> check yet" email doesn't result in a situation that satisfies me. -- > >deleting the files doesn't help you at all... this is a case where >prepayment is clearly a must... without knowing the situation, >however, i wouldn't purport to know the right way to fix it... Right ... no good way to fix it, thanks for the sympathy - the guy's excuse is that he has to put it on his investor's credit card and I don't take credit cards ... his first payment was in cash ... I don't buy the "investors credit card" thing - sent him an email earlier today suggesting he buy a money order with the card. If I delete the files what will I be out? I like unusual tasting wines. The two that have stood out in recent months are J. Lohr Merlot which tastes like goat cheese and Chateaux Trocard Boedeaux Superior which tastes like very very old library books ... or maybe clothing in a foot locker that hasn't been opened since 1930. Also, Louis Roederer champagne tastes like Tylenol. Mmmmmm good. -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ __________________________________________ From gozz at gozz.com Sat Dec 29 03:20:31 2001 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:20:31 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: try background #999999, geosolutions.com #ffffff, other elements adjust as necessary. -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ __________________________________________ From john at neoncowboy.com Sat Dec 29 03:25:16 2001 From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:25:16 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> Message-ID: |that wasn't my argument at all... if you have a client for web work, |and you *cannot* or *will not* provide same day service when they |request it, then they'll look elsewhere... Then let 'em! ...and while they're looking elsewhere, I hope the people who know exactly how it ought to look (they just don't know the software to create it, you know) will look elsewhere too...and the ones who want me to teach them HTML so they can make their own changes...and the ones who want to tell me how long it should take to re-configure Phorm to work on another domain and change all of the includes so they'll work on the new domain too..and the ones who know some guy's sister who does web design for $20/hour, so I should too. They can all go look elsewhere. Y'know why? Because all those clients do for me is waste time that I could otherwise spend developing trusting relationships with clients who are capable of comprehending such a thing. |the context of the post was that this client *does* expect it, and |creating a billing arrangement that still allows this *and* protects |the developer (while benefitting the client) is always worth looking |at... It was a pretty good suggestion, but I don't think her client is going to go for it. Have you ever been jerked around by a client Aardvark? It's a hard row to hoe when your out lots of hours, there's no pay in sight and mad people are suggesting that *you* are the one who is being an asshole. She identified the client as being a) demanding and b) reluctant to pay. If you can get that client to pay upfront, you're in the wrong business! |that's one way to do it... i base my approach on the client... those |who don't pay don't get their work until they pay (final product), so if they don't pay, how do they get their work when they pay? I shudder to think about the attitude some of my tougher, cheaper, non-trusting, paranoid clients would take toward everything if they were out a few thousand dollars with nothing to show for it. I can hear them freaking out about how much more work I owe them, 'I didnt know it was going to take this long to blah-blah-blah! You were going to blah - blah! I thought surely for $1000 that you'd have my blah - blah doing blah - blah by now!' I'm glad you have found a solution for this, but it doesn't sound like a viable solution to me at all. Of course, I don't have a grasp on solving all client problems. In fact, this is a self confessed weak spot in my business. I try to be real up front about everything and make suggestions that will save my clients money. I work both by the hour and according to estimates. When I estimate costs, I stick to my estimates, even at the expense of making $5/hour. |i hate to say this about |the other feedback you've gotten, somehow i doubt that but you're probably better off |disregarding it... Oh please...your arrogance makes me want to puke sometimes. whatever. Sandi, you're lucky to have Aardvark looking after you. God knows what would happen if you listened to the opinions of several *working professionals* in this community and then came to a point of decision about how to handle your situation. Sorry for the negative tone everyone, but to have one member telling other members they'd be 'better off' disregarding input from the community kind of bothers me. :) jpc From mestiphal at creativescream.net Sat Dec 29 03:32:09 2001 From: mestiphal at creativescream.net (Rob Redford) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:32:09 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage In-Reply-To: <002601c18f22$64a2dea0$9865fea9@Laptop> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228003953.01b217e0@203.197.12.4> <002601c18f22$64a2dea0$9865fea9@Laptop> Message-ID: <71166226320.20011229023603@creativescream.net> Bob: Thursday, December 27, 2001, 3:04:01 PM, you wrote: Bob> I had a similar problem with Cold Fusion hogging all my resources but that Bob> was related to the ntconsole.exe as the problem. I have had this problem on and off with CF 5.0 Pro as well. How is it fixed (or is it)? -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best regards, Rob Redford :: mestiphal at creativescream.net Saturday, December 29, 2001 || 2:31 AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ :: dream || imagine || create :: http://creativestream.net/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bharoche at usa.net Sat Dec 29 03:38:35 2001 From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:38:35 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228003953.01b217e0@203.197.12.4> <002601c18f22$64a2dea0$9865fea9@Laptop> <71166226320.20011229023603@creativescream.net> Message-ID: <000a01c1904c$94ded3f0$9865fea9@Laptop> > Bob> I had a similar problem with Cold Fusion hogging all my resources but that > Bob> was related to the ntconsole.exe as the problem. > > I have had this problem on and off with CF 5.0 Pro as well. How is it fixed (or > is it)? Hi Rob, Try this: http://www.allaire.com/Handlers/index.cfm?ID=21807&Method=Full That didn't permanently fix it for me though. I finally had to rename ntconsole.exe, which did fix the problem. HTH, Regards, Bob Haroche O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s http://www.OnPointSolutions.com From richard.bennett at skynet.be Sat Dec 29 03:48:42 2001 From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:48:42 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ References: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Message-ID: <009f01c1904d$bc8a5b30$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj> hi, You obviously haven't done any work for government agencies yet, or you'd be very happy with a 30-60 day turnaround. I wouldn't regard that as unreasonable. (if they stick to that schedule) If I get paid within about 6 weeks after the day of acceptance of invoice, I'm very happy. Sometimes (like recently) I get the choice, I can do the work now, but payment is only in the budget for 2002, so wait for payment 'till January, (or six weeks after January) - or do the work in 2002, running the risk that the project gets cancelled.... In your case, I'd simply talk to the customer. Ask whether they prefer you to bill them weekly, to keep the amounts small etc. Ask if they have any reason not to pay you, or if the work isn't up to scratch. There's often a mutual agreement not more than a phone-call away, and if there isn't, you know you've lost the client anyway, or they're not worth having, and can start more aggressive action. Cheers, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "iibiz" To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:02 AM Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ > Hi All! > > Haven't written for a while 'cuz I've been busy, busy. > > One of my clients, who is very demanding by the way and expects immediate > turn around on updates, then proceeds to take anywhere from 30 to 60 days to > pay. I'm done messing around with this, and want to post their changes to > the "temporary" file that I have set up for approval, and then tell them > that they won't be posted to their site until payment is made. I know > they're gonna have a cow, but I don't think this is a very unusual > practice - is it? > > What kind of payment terms do you all demand? > > Sandy From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 03:52:54 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 03:52:54 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: References: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2D4BBE.15995.BF719FD4@localhost> > From: Erik Mattheis > > I thought about writing "in the context of this post" but didn't ... > agreed, giving a discounted rate can build client rapport - BUT if > anything, a more appropriate response to a client needing immediate > updates would be a surcharge, not a discounted rate ... the more so if > the client is slow in paying. I mark my development updates payable agreed, depending on the client... generally, we have a process in place for those anyway, if they need them in less than 24 hours, it gets jacked up, but that can be part of the deal anyway... > upon receipt and won't send a reminder for one month ... but it seems > that this is an ongoing problem for Sandy - it doesn't seem that the > client values her/his work - taking down the site would be a poignant > motivation for the client to give some needed respect. if the client is truly a non-payer, yes, but i got the gist that the client just pays on 30-60 day terms... that's not a non-payer if that's the case, just a slow payer... a non-payer requires a different approach... > I guess my main point is that largely, people treat you as you you > expect them to. And not taking decisive action in response to non > payment sends the signal that it's ok to be lax in cutting the check. again, not disagreeing on non-payers... i was only talking about those on 30-60 day terms... > Well, it seems like we're on the same page ... clients are different > ... the client Sandy speaks of is troublesome ... I was just > encouraging her (him?) (are you a her or him?) (does it matter?) (am I > being to sensitive to feminists who object to the use of "him" when > referring to someone of an indeterminate sex?) (should I just use > "they" instead as is suggested by some influential linguists?) ... to "it" ...? > take down the site if the non payment was unbearable. The goal of the > post is to find suggestions for ways to get paid ... and accepting > partial payment is really selling yourself short ... the ability to > take down the site is some powerful ammo that should be used when > appropriate. And if this issue is important enough to post here, I say > do it. yeah, for non-payers, it's integral... but i'm still trying to look at this as nothing more than a client has 30-60 day terms and she wanted the money now... if that *all* it is, pre-payment is worth a look... all this talk about holding *every* change hostage is unsettling given my scenario... given total non-payment as a scenario, it's a no-brainer... > No, wasn't a response to your post, but the thread ... great if you > offer a discount on prepayment, but myself, as an independent, the > flow isn't great enough to make having less money this month better > than more money next month. I think I remember that Sandy is > independent or a hus/wife team. pre-payment can have benefits... if the client gets into the habit of paying every month, it sits in your account collecting interest 30-60 days sooner... they get used to paying, they get used to having you on call as a resource, conversations about billing can become less frequent, administrative time can be reduced... but you need the right client and right billing arrangement... [...] > buy the "investors credit card" thing - sent him an email earlier > today suggesting he buy a money order with the card. If I delete the > files what will I be out? the files... i dunno, i have a thing against deleting anything... for instance, charge again for the time to build them, but just use the same files, thereby allowing you to use the time to do real work... or put them in "archive" and pull them for a fee... From gozz at gozz.com Sat Dec 29 04:21:35 2001 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Sat Dec 29 04:21:35 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D4BBE.15995.BF719FD4@localhost> References: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> <3C2D4BBE.15995.BF719FD4@localhost> Message-ID: >again, not disagreeing on non-payers... i was only talking about >those on 30-60 day terms... Right ... seems the best solution is hindsight - to get things about payment in writing first .. I almost always make new clients sign a contract first ... the only exception being one recent one that contacted me exactly the same time I realized I'd been doing nothing but reading about 9/11 for a month and a half ... was to eager to please (still catching up! anyone need a Flash movie conected to a database?). >Yeah, for non-payers, it's integral... but i'm still trying to look at >this as nothing more than a client has 30-60 day terms and she >wanted the money now... if that *all* it is, pre-payment is worth a >look... > >all this talk about holding *every* change hostage is unsettling >given my scenario... given total non-payment as a scenario, it's a >no-brainer... Again, seems getting things in writing beforehand is the best solution ... but if that's not there and you can take down the site - I'd think that's the thing to do - and actually something that would be better to try before enforcing a contract by legal action. >i dunno, i have a thing against deleting anything... for instance, >charge again for the time to build them, but just use the same files, >thereby allowing you to use the time to do real work... > >or put them in "archive" and pull them for a fee... Right on ... this is just a $450 bill - most of the time I spent was unbilled, learning to use a new technology ... my "gentle" third reminder was to attach to an email saying I still haven't received payment an estimate which noted a "50% of development fees payable before commencement of project". I trust clients until I have a reason not to. And think I'll eventually get paid for this thing ... disturbed me that his current site redirects to the current host's homepage. -- __________________________________________ - Erik Mattheis (612) 377 2272 http://goZz.com/ __________________________________________ From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 04:33:32 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 04:33:32 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: References: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2D5548.14606.BF96E386@localhost> > From: "John Corry" > > |that wasn't my argument at all... if you have a client for web work, > |and you *cannot* or *will not* provide same day service when they > |request it, then they'll look elsewhere... > > Then let 'em! so be it... part of business is knowing who you want as a client, and who you don't... personally, same day service is not an unreasonable expectation, so i'll provide it whenever i can... > ...and while they're looking elsewhere, I hope the people who know > exactly how it ought to look (they just don't know the software to > create it, you know) will look elsewhere too...and the ones who want > me to teach them HTML so they can make their own changes...and the > ones who want to tell me how long it should take to re-configure Phorm > to work on another domain and change all of the includes so they'll > work on the new domain too..and the ones who know some guy's sister > who does web design for $20/hour, so I should too. They can all go > look elsewhere. so, you're willing to throw all that away? i'll throw most of it away... but some of those can be turned into real work depending on the client... but that's a whole different discussion... i also send the "my nephew does web work for $20" people to their nephew... maybe that guy's sister and this guy's nephew can get together... > Y'know why? Because all those clients do for me is waste time that I > could otherwise spend developing trusting relationships with clients > who are capable of comprehending such a thing. good for you (i sound so patronizing, don't i?)... it's important to know what clients are good, and what clients are bad... clearly you know what works for you... thankfully i have people i can task to all the problems you cite above, meaning i can still have some of them as clients despite the management issues... does this mean we keep them all? of course not... > |the context of the post was that this client *does* expect it, and > |creating a billing arrangement that still allows this *and* protects > |the developer (while benefitting the client) is always worth looking > |at... > > It was a pretty good suggestion, but I don't think her client is going > to go for it. perhaps not... but proposing it and seeing the response might tell her more about the client to let her know how to proceed next... it doesn't hurt to propose it, and it certainly *can* help to propose it... if the only problem is that they take 30-60 days to pay, then she's got it easy... > Have you ever been jerked around by a client Aardvark? It's a hard row > to hoe when your out lots of hours, there's no pay in sight and mad > people are suggesting that *you* are the one who is being an asshole. hell, yeah... no matter how hard you try, there will always be clients who get in under the radar and screw you... just got through with one where we had to hold their site hostage for 3 months... and they'll never be a client again... others who are impossible to manage, but you account for it when quoting jobs, so you have room to play... knowing when to walk away is important... > She identified the client as being a) demanding and b) reluctant to > pay. If you can get that client to pay upfront, you're in the wrong > business! well, the client is demanding insofar as they expect a web site can be updated daily (which isn't odd given the nature of the web), and reluctant to pay insofar as they pay on 30-60 day terms (which isn't that far out of the norm)... i've had that client many many times... and i've proposed the upfront payments many many times, and most take it, and they all love it... and i do, too... if they *don't* want to do it, you need to decide why that's the case when they would save money on the deal (perhaps they're living too close to the edge? perhaps they plan to screw you?)... that's when you reconsider the situation... again, this is all based on the presumption that the client cited in the original post doesn't pay for 30-60 days... i don't see that alone as a problem... or as a non-payer... she never said the client is a non-payer... > |that's one way to do it... i base my approach on the client... those > |who don't pay don't get their work until they pay (final product), > > so if they don't pay, how do they get their work when they pay? huh? if they pay, they get their work per the agreement (CD, uploads, installs, whatever)... if they don't pay, we don't hand it over... our projects usually span billing cycles, so we know pretty well whether they'll pay or not... for the smaller projects, we're a bit more cautious, but we work it out with the client... > I shudder to think about the attitude some of my tougher, cheaper, > non-trusting, paranoid clients would take toward everything if they > were out a few thousand dollars with nothing to show for it. I can > hear them freaking out about how much more work I owe them, 'I didnt > know it was going to take this long to blah-blah-blah! You were going > to blah - blah! I thought surely for $1000 that you'd have my blah - > blah doing blah - blah by now!' you don't have a scope document with client sign-off? project plan? even a cost estimate? if not, then yeah, what do you expect them to say when you go over budget? if your client can say that they didn't know it would cost this much, two things are possible: - you've mis-managed the client... - the client is lying, as evidenced by a signed agreement... > I'm glad you have found a solution for this, but it doesn't sound like > a viable solution to me at all. it's a standard quoting and sign-off solution... it's general business practice... if you're still talking about the client not knowing how much it would cost, that is (your paragraph above)... either the client is lying (and you defeat them with the signed agrement) or the client never knew the cost (and you've mis-managed them)... correct me if i've got the wrong idea on what you mean... > Of course, I don't have a grasp on solving all client problems. In > fact, this is a self confessed weak spot in my business. I try to be > real up front about everything and make suggestions that will save my > clients money. I work both by the hour and according to estimates. > When I estimate costs, I stick to my estimates, even at the expense of > making $5/hour. ok, then why would your client be surprised at a cost? i think we're well beyond the theme of the original post, that we're more into just a costing discussion now... > |i hate to say this about > |the other feedback you've gotten, > > somehow i doubt that no, i generally don't like to say my advice is better, and while i don't think it is necessarily, i do think it's a better first step... talk to the client, try to work it out... if that doesn't work, then hold their stuff hostage... this adversarial thing with clients doesn't help anyone... > |but you're probably better off > |disregarding it... > > Oh please...your arrogance makes me want to puke sometimes. well, that's one option... personally, i use my finger if i want to chunder... > whatever. well, you don't have to use *my* finger... > Sandi, you're lucky to have Aardvark looking after you. God knows what > would happen if you listened to the opinions of several *working > professionals* in this community and then came to a point of decision > about how to handle your situation. unfortunately, none of us truly knows the situation... for sandy to take any of our advice at face value would be dim... but if you think holding work hostage as the *first* step is the way to go in this case, then so be it... i think it's short-sighted and antithetical to the overall client relationship... what's so hard about proposing an idea to a client? if the client balks, take harsher measures, but why start with the slap? btw, what does the "working professionals" statement mean? i have this sneaking suspicion you have no idea what i do for a living... chicken plucking doesn't pay too well, after all... and who came to a "point of decision?" > Sorry for the negative tone everyone, but to have one member telling > other members they'd be 'better off' disregarding input from the > community kind of bothers me. wow, one time in years i suggest that, and someone calls me on it... i really need to get thank you notes (i have no idea what that means)... anyway, yeah, i stand by my statement... the other two suggestions about holding the work hostage, are, as stated above, a poor way to start off, IMNSHO... what's funny is that i'm the one who's the dick, but i'm suggesting a nicer way to work with the client... where have i gone wrong? From sales at iibiz.com Sat Dec 29 07:46:03 2001 From: sales at iibiz.com (iibiz) Date: Sat Dec 29 07:46:03 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ References: <3C2D33D0.29374.BF142567@localhost> <3C2D5548.14606.BF96E386@localhost> Message-ID: <011b01c1906f$e98d3680$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> "I trust clients until I have a reason not to" - and Aardvark mentioned trust in his first email too. And this client has already shown me they can't be trusted, even thought there is a contract. And I've been on this list long enough to value Aardvark's opinion. Unfortunately, the site in question is a small business and a rather small site whose changes aren't consistent enough for them to agree with "prepayment" terms. By the way - I am an independent "she". I guess I'm at the point that I'm willing to let this client "walk" if they don't agree. I'm sick of jumping at the snap of their fingers - often interupting work I'm doing for other, higher paying/fast paying clients, only to waste time over the next couple of months trying to get my money! I just was trying to get a feel for what you other designers are doing as far as payment, so I could confidently say "this isn't unusual practice in web design" or not. Thanks for ALL your input.........and get some sleep! Sandy From frederic.roland at roland-dev.com Sat Dec 29 08:41:42 2001 From: frederic.roland at roland-dev.com (Frédéric ROLAND) Date: Sat Dec 29 08:41:42 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership In-Reply-To: <001901c18f1a$bdbebc00$6601a8c0@mcleodusa.net> Message-ID: I had no problem using MSIE 5.5, I can remember that they have both french and english pages. Maybe content negotiation as gone mad. I don't know. Regards, Fr?d?ric Roland -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Chad Savage Sent: jeudi 27 d?cembre 2001 22:09 To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fr?d?ric ROLAND" > > I think that www.gandi.net recognize the customer as owner of the name. > > Fr?d?ric Roland ...just as long as you speak French? ======================================================================== "Due to a configuration error of your software, our server was not able to give you the document in your language. To be able to use content negotiation, please correctly configure your browser by specifying your language. With Netscape, you need to go to the following menus : Edit, Preferences, Navigator, Languages. With Internet Explorer, please go to : Tools (ou Extras), Internet Options, Languages. By specifying the language in which you want to see the web pages, our server will be able to give you the English or French version (according to your choices) of documents. For more details on this standard : http://www.debian.org/intro/cn.en " ======================================================================== ...or am I missing something? Chad _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From jg3_savage at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 08:41:46 2001 From: jg3_savage at yahoo.com (Chad Savage :: zTc) Date: Sat Dec 29 08:41:46 2001 Subject: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228101431.00a52a80@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:53 PM 12/27/01 -0500, you wrote: >Subject: Re: [thelist] Domain Registrars / Name Ownership >To: The List > >i just loaded it and it came up in english. but then i have english >specified as my default language. > >looks like the language selection script is choking on your browser. try >following the instructions to get it to work or use a different browser? >strange tho, that that would happen... > >george That's the first thing I did, actually (before I posted regarding it) -- using IE6, with a variety of English-types specified... ::: Chad Savage, aka zTc ::: Jackson Gray 3 ::: _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From iweb at 371.net Sat Dec 29 11:20:46 2001 From: iweb at 371.net (iweb at 371.net) Date: Sat Dec 29 11:20:46 2001 Subject: [thelist] FW:thelist -- confirmation of subscription -- request 427047 Message-ID: <6401229.1009646412876.NetDao.naisamail@app2> ----- Original Message ----- From: thelist-request at lists.evolt.org To: iweb at 371.net Sent: 2001-12-30 01:16 Subject: thelist -- confirmation of subscription -- request 427047 thelist -- confirmation of subscription -- request 427047 We have received a request from 63.237.54.250 for subscription of your email address, , to the thelist at lists.evolt.org mailing list. To confirm the request, please send a message to thelist-request at lists.evolt.org, and either: - maintain the subject line as is (the reply's additional "Re:" is ok), - or include the following line - and only the following line - in the message body: confirm 427047 (Simply sending a 'reply' to this message should work from most email interfaces, since that usually leaves the subject line in the right form.) If you do not wish to subscribe to this list, please simply disregard this message. Send questions to thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org. ????? http://www.zz.ha.cn 371???? http://www.371.net From john at neoncowboy.com Sat Dec 29 12:30:02 2001 From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry) Date: Sat Dec 29 12:30:02 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D5548.14606.BF96E386@localhost> Message-ID: |you don't have a scope document with client sign-off? project |plan? even a cost estimate? if not, then yeah, what do you expect |them to say when you go over budget? Yes. But it doesn't matter. The ones who want to b e difficult about this will be difficult. The cheap ones will be cheap. I can wave their signoff in their face and 'prove' to them that I'm 'right', but what good does that do toward creating a trusting, happy client/services provider relationship? |ok, then why would your client be surprised at a cost? | |i think we're well beyond the theme of the original post, that we're |more into just a costing discussion now... agreed. I'd love it if you'd write an article on IA, managing project scope and keeping everything rolling along on schedule and on budget. I am under the impression that you are particularly skilled at this facet of the business and would love to see how you do it. I also suspect that your process would be compatible with my personality type...but that's subjective. |well, you don't have to use *my* finger... lol. |btw, what does the "working professionals" statement mean? i |have this sneaking suspicion you have no idea what i do for a |living... chicken plucking doesn't pay too well, after all... It means that everyone here works in this field. Everyone who responded to her post has experience in this arena. I have a sneaking suspicion that you manage a high volume web development firm. | |where have i gone wrong? Nah. You're alright. Of course, you *are* a dick, but that's nothing to worry about. I do hope you'll consider an article outlining AS's development process from needs determination to project scope decisions to budgeting/bidding. Many of us here have been thrust into these positions with only common sense as our guide. I didn't go to business school and don't even have a halfway decent set of people skills, client management is a weak spot in my business. After being a independent consultant for 3 years I'm starting to learn (slowly) how not to get burned. I think I got mad at your cavalier way of just matter of factly dismissing the thoughts of me and Erik, thoughts that are the product of *real world struggles* with these very issues. I bought the right to give Sandi that advice with agony man, paid for it with blood, sweat and tears...and you come along and just say, 'Oooh, don't do that! That guy really needs to work on his scope/bid/client management skills'. Guess that's more of a personal development issue than a web development issue. Anyway, sorry for the vibe. jpc From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 12:58:08 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 12:58:08 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: References: <3C2D5548.14606.BF96E386@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2DCB8F.13035.C164E634@localhost> > From: "John Corry" [...] > But it doesn't matter. The ones who want to b e difficult about this > will be difficult. The cheap ones will be cheap. I can wave their > signoff in their face and 'prove' to them that I'm 'right', but what > good does that do toward creating a trusting, happy client/services > provider relationship? no, you're right... and as you said before, you give the client the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it... and i do that, too... and as a result, some will get in under the radar and we'll take it in the can... it's just important to cut those losses as soon as you can, minimizing the impact, and trying to make it amicable if possible... bad clients get their own reputation, too... [...] > I'd love it if you'd write an article on IA, managing project scope > and keeping everything rolling along on schedule and on budget. I am > under the impression that you are particularly skilled at this facet > of the business and would love to see how you do it. I also suspect > that your process would be compatible with my personality type...but > that's subjective. actually, i'm not remarkable... after starting my company, we put a CEO in place who had 20+ years of experience in the consulting world and as a CIO... his business experience has rubbed off on me enough that i'm not a complete idiot... that and whatever i'd write would be slightly different the next month... we're always re-adjusting, always re-assessing... but i'd be happy to put some thought into, see if i can come up with anything useful... [...] > |btw, what does the "working professionals" statement mean? i > |have this sneaking suspicion you have no idea what i do for a > |living... chicken plucking doesn't pay too well, after all... > > It means that everyone here works in this field. Everyone who > responded to her post has experience in this arena. gotcha... > I have a sneaking suspicion that you manage a high volume web > development firm. close... i'm one of a few, so my weakness get filled in by the strengths of others... > Nah. You're alright. Of course, you *are* a dick, but that's nothing > to worry about. well, we're agreed on that, then... > I do hope you'll consider an article outlining AS's development > process from needs determination to project scope decisions to > budgeting/bidding. i will... > Many of us here have been thrust into these positions with only common > sense as our guide. I didn't go to business school and don't even have > a halfway decent set of people skills, client management is a weak > spot in my business. After being a independent consultant for 3 years > I'm starting to learn (slowly) how not to get burned. i look back on my freelance days and am horrified at how i let myself get jerked around... i used to be terrible at this... > I think I got mad at your cavalier way of just matter of factly > dismissing the thoughts of me and Erik, thoughts that are the product > of *real world struggles* with these very issues. I bought the right > to give Sandi that advice with agony man, paid for it with blood, > sweat and tears...and you come along and just say, 'Oooh, don't do > that! That guy really needs to work on his scope/bid/client management > skills'. Guess that's more of a personal development issue than a web > development issue. no, i see your point, and i'm sorry i came off that way... i was just trying to push the need to work with the client before becoming adversarial -- based solely on my interpretation of the facts as presented... that and i see a lot of client bashing, and i get a little touchy on that subject... > Anyway, sorry for the vibe. it's all good... From kristenannfrey at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 14:45:10 2001 From: kristenannfrey at yahoo.com (Kristy Frey) Date: Sat Dec 29 14:45:10 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2DCB8F.13035.C164E634@localhost> Message-ID: <20011229204517.83488.qmail@web14309.mail.yahoo.com> > i look back on my freelance days and am horrified at how i let > myself get jerked around... i used to be terrible at this... and anyone that has done any freelance work in Buffalo knows what it's like to work with companies that expect big results for small money. kristy P.S. Sandy - I would be interested in hearing how you end up resolving this. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From persist1 at io.com Sat Dec 29 14:56:28 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Sat Dec 29 14:56:28 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <3C2D290B.25965.BEEA13C7@localhost> Message-ID: I started this 12 hours ago when the thread started, suspended it to finish other replies, and forgot to send it. Most of the stuff I mention has already been covered by Rudy and John, but there's a bit of humor at the end that you'll likely appreciate. On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, aardvark wrote: > i think that's the kind of practice that fosters anything but a good > relationship with the client... holding their work hostage is how it > can be seen on their end, and it removes any trust... I have to join my own voice to this opinion. > remember, this is the web... if you insist on holding up changes for > payment, that client will walk when someone comes along who can > offer the immediate service they want... i hate to say this about > the other feedback you've gotten, but you're probably better off > disregarding it... Even if you disagree, the man DOES have a point (Rudy, not the client). It won't help with this client, but in general: 1. Get EVERYTHING in writing or via e-mail. Approvals, change orders, disputes, notifications of all kinds. In some places - like Oregon, where I live - you're dead to justice if you don't. 2. Spell out the payment and invoice terms before you start planning or bulding ANYTHING. If the client has an EARNED (not anecdotal) reputation for keeping their promises, it might be practical to loosen your payment terms if you can afford it... but anymore I only do it if those factors are both affirmative. No excuses, because the only thing worse than not having gigs is having a plate full of gigs that you're not getting paid for. (More on this below.) 3. Define deliverables and the timelines associated with them, so that their reasonable nature (or lack thereof) is spelt out and on the table for all to see. Even if the job is being done pro bono or on some sort of payment plan. If they want to demand immediate turnaround, they should have the fortitude to put those demands in writing (and I know of at least one person on this list who will agree with this assertion, word for word, based on earlier correspondence). 4. If the client falls behind, don't hold anything hostage. At the same time, there's no reason why you should feel yourself constrained from refusing service until the account is paid in full. ("You haven't paid me in three months - until you do, I'm not working on the site.") For the really difficult clients, you can give them the following explanation for your hard-line approach: "I'll tell you what: if you can convince my landlord, grocer, utility providers, ISP, bank, estate agent, doctor, druggist, bartender, etc. etc. to serve me for free because I'm such a nice guy, I'll gladly return the favor." Yes, the work might go to someone else. You might be so broke, that you can't afford to turn the work down. But none of that changes the fact that we are professionals who should carry ourselves in a professional manner, and expect that our clients will do the same - at least to the same measure. -- Ben Henick Web Author At-Large Managing Editor http://www.io.com/persist1/ http://www.digital-web.com/ persist1 at io.com bmh at digital-web.com -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?" "I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid." "We will disguise ourselves as a cow." "Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!" From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Dec 29 15:36:50 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Dec 29 15:36:50 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ In-Reply-To: <20011229204517.83488.qmail@web14309.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3C2DCB8F.13035.C164E634@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2DF0B8.10270.C1F6110E@localhost> > From: Kristy Frey > > and anyone that has done any freelance work in Buffalo knows what it's > like to work with companies that expect big results for small money. hmmm... sounds like you sit in on my staff meetings... > P.S. Sandy - I would be interested in hearing how you end up resolving > this. same here... Wanna meet some of your fellow evolters in real life? Heard about the London, Toronto, and Milwakee beervolts, but couldn't get a flight in time to make it after work? Well, given the holiday timing, feel free to create your own and post it to this article: Festive Beervolts http://evolt.org/article/tip/27/18958/ There's a Buffalo beervolt in the works -- right after we dig out. (btw, anyone who wants to see pics of the snow, mail me offlist) From webdev at komputerart.com Sat Dec 29 16:11:43 2001 From: webdev at komputerart.com (Kris Hedstrom) Date: Sat Dec 29 16:11:43 2001 Subject: [thelist] Forcing IE to download a file rather than displaying it? References: <001701c1903c$a1952c30$9865fea9@Laptop> Message-ID: <001401c190b6$08f1da80$1fb7e40c@attbi.com> I wrote this php function awhile back to force downloads. I don't know if you're using php or not, but it might be helpful. function download($path) global $HTTP_USER_AGENT; $file=basename($path); $size = filesize($path); header("Content-Type: application/octet-stream"); header("Content-Type: application/force-download"); header("Content-Length: $size"); // IE5.5 just downloads index.php if we don't do this if(preg_match("/MSIE 5.5/", $HTTP_USER_AGENT)) header("Content-Disposition: filename=$file"); } else header("Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=$file"); } header("Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary"); $fh = fopen($path, "r"); fpassthru($fh); } ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Haroche To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 11:44 PM Subject: [thelist] Forcing IE to download a file rather than displaying it? > I need to create a web space where my client can upload Word (.doc) files > and Acrobat (.pdf) files. When the user clicks on a file link, it should > force the browser to respond with a "save file" dialog box. > > Obviously, this is simple if the files are first zipped/stuffed, but reasons > not relevant here that's not an option. > > The domain is virtually hosted on unix/Apache 1.3.6. I've played around with > .htaccess to over-ride the mime type for these files such as: > > AddType application/octet-stream .doc > > While this works for Netscape, Internet Explorer 6 PC (and I assume earlier > versions as well) insist on still opening the Word documents inside the > browser. > > Is there any way, other than zipping/stuffing to over-ride this behavior and > force a "save as..." prompt? > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Bob Haroche > O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s > http://www.OnPointSolutions.com > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________ > O n P o i n t S o l u t i o n s > P.O. Box 694 > Occidental, Ca 95465 > Tel: 707.874.2710 > Fax: 707.874.2716 > http://www.OnPointSolutions.com > > > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > From lauri_lists at tharapita.com Sat Dec 29 17:49:52 2001 From: lauri_lists at tharapita.com (Lauri Vain) Date: Sat Dec 29 17:49:52 2001 Subject: [thelist] Templating solutions? Message-ID: <000d01c190c3$b08df3c0$1631a8c0@hot7> Hi there! During the last two weeks or so, I've been bugged by a question deep inside me. It's about various templating solutions used with dynamic web applications. Oftentimes simply embedding the code into the HTML template does the trick. Othertimes the include("header.inc"); and include("footer.inc"); works its magic. There are, however, also moments when such approaches aren't enough and something else is required. What does one do when the templates of most pages within one site differ in look and feel? One possibility would be to specify a template, load it into a variable and replace certain marked spots (a la "") with the dynamically created code/text using eregi_replace() or something similar. What are the templating solutions available? Pros and cons? How do you solve your templating? Yours, Lauri -- Tharapita Creations [dynamic web applications] lauri.vain at tharapita.com Mobile: +372 53 410 610 From gnarly at gmx.co.uk Sat Dec 29 18:25:46 2001 From: gnarly at gmx.co.uk (Olly) Date: Sat Dec 29 18:25:46 2001 Subject: [thelist] IE Problem - [perhaps a bit OT] Message-ID: <003901c190c9$3fe541e0$c432893e@woody> Hi all, I'm messing about on my mum's PC - using Win95. After replacing the modem (the old one had hamsters in it) I downloaded IE5.5SP2 and installed it. And now whenever I start up the PC I get the IE4 Welcome window pop up. Except it looks for res://ie4tour.dll/welcome.htm then comes up with the cannot find server error. So there is no "dont show me this again" checkbox type thing. I've looked about in the registry but I cant see where the hell its called. Anybody have any ideas how I can stop this? Cheers, Olly PS: A Tip will be forthcoming when my brain is a bit less cloudy - had a big family party all day and I've yet to fully regain my sanity :-) From marty at face2interface.com Sat Dec 29 18:41:10 2001 From: marty at face2interface.com (Marty Landman) Date: Sat Dec 29 18:41:10 2001 Subject: [thelist] Templating solutions? In-Reply-To: <000d01c190c3$b08df3c0$1631a8c0@hot7> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229191348.022f0ec0@216.238.4.10> At 01:51 AM 12/30/01 +0200, Lauri Vain wrote: >Oftentimes simply embedding the code into the HTML template does the trick. >Othertimes the >include("header.inc"); and >include("footer.inc"); works its magic. Lauri, I've found that a more generic solution has a template as its base with the common elements filled in by the program and other software entities. Taking an object oriented approach allows complexity to develop as needed w/o requiring the whole system to be rewritten. I'm developing http://feedthebulldog.com/ as an illustration of this using ASP & Visual Basic. >There are, however, also moments when such approaches aren't enough and >something else is required. Nesting is a good technique especially when it empowers the author of the site rather than the developer, i.e. as the programmer of the back-end it's important to provide the webmaster with tools that will allow for needs they have which you may not be able to properly anticipate. For instance in my CMS/Authoring product SIMPL there is in addition to a site wide template a facility called 'heaps' which allows for content independance from HTML tagging. For example on http://newdiets.com/ there are well over 100 recipes. Most of them use a recipe heap, where the tagging and symbolic content substitution is specied. Heap instances are used to specify the contents of individual pages on the site and the tagging is done according to the specifications of the heap at runtime. Which means that the corn bread recipe on http://newdiets.com/Breads_and_Such/Corn_Bread.shtml can be changed from italics to bold on the line between the title and ingredients by changing the recipe heap. **Changing the recipe heap will make this change instantly to every such line on the site, at least all the ones that use the recipe heap. hth, Marty Website Creation Made SIMPL(tm) http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml WebSafe Color Picker -- http://face2interface.com/WebSafe From jeana at stormdrain.org Sat Dec 29 19:42:46 2001 From: jeana at stormdrain.org (jeana) Date: Sat Dec 29 19:42:46 2001 Subject: [thelist] Business/Payment Question........ References: <009501c19015$37fc9e60$5fa0b3c7@iibiz> Message-ID: <00fa01c190d3$2ca38e20$0a80a8c0@localdomain> > What kind of payment terms do you all demand? Fyi.. good thread btw... I'm in the process of writing a business plan/contract outlines etc.... So I really don't have any real-life experience to add here... but one question that has been plaguing my mind while I've read is ... I'm wondering if the contract is simply not Black-and-white enough? I mean, if the client signs a contract saying... "payment will be payed when _______ is completed, and work will be submitted by this date _________" can the contract still be questionable (and the client jerk you around as in Sandy's case)? Or (no offense Sandy) is it possible that Sandy's contract was too vague... and a lesson is learned to write contracts that outline *everything* (and moreso maybe on a case-by-case scenerio...meaning, perhaps "trust" is built with previous clients.. and contracts not so strict for them.. but for new clients... perhaps that black and white solid edge a designer needs to protect themselves). I hope my thoughts/questions made sense. Thanks, Jeana From seb at members.evolt.org Sat Dec 29 20:16:58 2001 From: seb at members.evolt.org (Seb) Date: Sat Dec 29 20:16:58 2001 Subject: [thelist] php date In-Reply-To: <001e01c18e38$b3107ec0$1fb7e40c@attbi.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011230020815.00a76c18@members.evolt.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >John Corry wants to know: > > http://www.sugarbeachresort.net/index.php?page=rates > > > > This is really a question of 'logical approach' more than anything. > > > > At the URL above I have a table for condo rates. I'm about to build a db > > driven site that has this information for about 10-20 properties and need >to > > automate part of it. I've got the actual rates coming from the db already, > > that's a given. It's the date ranges that has me stumped because I don't > > want to store that value, I want to generate it based on the current date. > > > > The 'high season' and 'low season' dates change every year. I need to > > automate that change. > > > > Hm, if this it too complicated though I guess it would be fine and easy > > enough to just put the dates in an include and use that file for all of >the > > sites...but, if there's some great PHP date magic one of you could >enlighten > > me to, that'd be GREAT! Piece of cake. Create a table SEASONS with the following columns: Season_display_start (datetime) Season_display_end (datetime) High_season_start (datetime) High_season_end (datetime) Low_season_start (datetime) Low_season_end (datetime) Then, populate with a record for every year that you want to. The season_display_start and season_display_end dates specify when to start and stop displaying the high and low season dates for that year. (So, you could display the high and low season dates for 2003 from 11th April 2002 to 19th May 2003.) Your logic will be: $sql_query = "select * from SEASONS where season_display_start < " . $current_date . " and season_display_end > " . $current_date ; Ta da! Seb. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPC55OPTbQoqHwhmzEQINJgCfQ/CmX76FgYuw918pYnDGuzepHvQAn2K9 T33zucTJlGWSn/EJmEbDNw2K =zWHV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From headlines at lists.evolt.org Sat Dec 29 23:55:02 2001 From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines) Date: Sat Dec 29 23:55:02 2001 Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 29-DEC-01 Message-ID: <200112300555.fBU5t1E7021728@leo.evolt.org> evolt.org headlines for 29-DEC-01 Hi evolters! We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone else: Code: Multiple Pages With PHP (Author: jesteruk) http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/17/19340/index.html This article will explain how you can split large results from a MySQL database into smaller, more managable chunks displayed on multiple pages. Allowing your visitors to navigate through your site with ease. Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site. Happy reading! evolt.org From guoguo321 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 30 01:03:26 2001 From: guoguo321 at hotmail.com (=?gb2312?B?1bwg1de5+g==?=) Date: Sun Dec 30 01:03:26 2001 Subject: [thelist] (no subject) Message-ID: haomood 882797 _________________________________________________________________ ???????? Web ?????? ?? MSN Hotmail? http://www.hotmail.com/cn From mali_subscribe at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 01:55:05 2001 From: mali_subscribe at yahoo.com (Mustapha Ali) Date: Sun Dec 30 01:55:05 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <000d01c190c3$b08df3c0$1631a8c0@hot7> Message-ID: <000901c19107$19f43d40$0100a8c0@intelligence> Hello, This is my first major project and I would like to get feedback from you guys.........i know there are some bugs like improper displaying of the CSS in Netscape (could I get help with that????).......but so far everything works well with IE......thanks a lot. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From webguru at vsnl.net Sun Dec 30 01:58:37 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Sun Dec 30 01:58:37 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage In-Reply-To: <20011229074711.8608051F47@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011230132004.01cf7dc0@203.197.12.4> At 01:17 PM 12/29/2001, Peter typed these words: >How long have you had win2k running since the last reformat/reinstall? Do >you have the "RPC locator" service running as well? If so, then disable >it. If it's not a server then I would recommend a reinstallation. HTH Thanks for that, Peter. I had disabled that service (along with several others) months ago. Recently, Windows Media Player stopped stretching MPEG files to fit the window, and played it only at the original size. I tried to find a solution to this (including thelist), but couldn't. My last resort was reinstalling Windows (it's bloody annoying that it reinstalls IE5 over my IE6). This didn't fix the Media Player problem, unfortunately. But it apparently changed the startup type of some services back to default :( I turned off all unnecessary services again (setting them to "Manual" instead of "Disabled") and the problem is fixed. Thanks again. :) If you're running Windows 2000 Professional on your home PC that's not connected to any network, there are several services you can disable to get a fair bit of performance boost. Services like Messenger, DHCP Client, Clipbook service, Remote Registry Service, etc. are all not required on a home PC. For a full list of services that can be disabled on a Win2K home PC, go to: http://is-it-true.org/nt/utips/utips76.shtml Regards, Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From joshstudd at acepia.net.au Sun Dec 30 02:12:54 2001 From: joshstudd at acepia.net.au (Joshua D. Studd) Date: Sun Dec 30 02:12:54 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project References: <000901c19107$19f43d40$0100a8c0@intelligence> Message-ID: <032001c19109$cc44f910$0100a8c0@josh> Got an address? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mustapha Ali" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 6:53 PM Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project > Hello, > > This is my first major project and I would like to get feedback from you > guys.........i know there are some bugs like improper displaying of the > CSS in Netscape (could I get help with that????).......but so far > everything works well with IE......thanks a lot. > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From one at redberger.com Sun Dec 30 03:16:04 2001 From: one at redberger.com (Jose Illenberger) Date: Sun Dec 30 03:16:04 2001 Subject: [thelist] centering pop-up windows using dreamweaver Message-ID: <003b01c19112$939a8220$22f108ca@berger> hello! i am using DW4 and i have a question. i am trying to do pop-up windows using dw and ive done it. i have observed that the pop-up windows that dw produces opens up randomly on the screen. i have seen on other sites that pop-ups can open in certain parts of the screen accdg to whatever coordinates you specify. ive peeked at their code and it seems to have been handcoded. my question is, can i reproduce such a thing using dreamweaver and if yes, how? i just want to make the pop-up appear in the center screen whenever they are clicked. thanks! ................................................ Jose Illenberger http://www.redberger.com icq: 113230862 ................................................ 'Codito, Ergo Sum' From peter at poorbuthappy.com Sun Dec 30 05:29:42 2001 From: peter at poorbuthappy.com (Peter) Date: Sun Dec 30 05:29:42 2001 Subject: [thelist] Templating solutions? In-Reply-To: <000d01c190c3$b08df3c0$1631a8c0@hot7> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011230112055.00a7b588@mail.poorbuthappy.com> >What does one do when the templates of most pages within one site differ >in look >and feel? One possibility would be to specify a template, load it into a >variable and replace certain marked spots (a la "") with the >dynamically created code/text using eregi_replace() or something similar. > >What are the templating solutions available? Pros and cons? You want to use something like FastTemplates (available for several languages). What it does (and others similar to it) is to remove ALL coding from the HTML. So your templates look something like {DOCTITLE}

{PAGETITLE}

where doctitile and pagetitle are just a few of the variables you create in your code. If you use this, you could even edit your templates with dreamweaver, and they'd still work. Very powerful. Then, the code for each page could be something like: (if you're using PHP) All the magic happens in main_includes.php ofcourse. Very flexible way of coding. Good luck. Peter From pkaulbak at idirect.ca Sun Dec 30 07:59:32 2001 From: pkaulbak at idirect.ca (Peter Kaulback) Date: Sun Dec 30 07:59:32 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011230132004.01cf7dc0@203.197.12.4> References: <20011229074711.8608051F47@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011230085042.034f5108@mail.idirect.ca> At 01:27 PM 12/30/2001 +0530, you wrote: >Recently, Windows Media Player stopped stretching MPEG files to fit the >window, and played it only at the original size. I tried to find a >solution to this (including thelist), but couldn't. My last resort was >reinstalling Windows (it's bloody annoying that it reinstalls IE5 over my IE6). > >This didn't fix the Media Player problem, unfortunately. But it apparently >changed the startup type of some services back to default :( > >I turned off all unnecessary services again (setting them to "Manual" >instead of "Disabled") and the problem is fixed. What type of motherboard do you have in your system, and does it contain a VIA chipset? If you have a PCI modem then the VIA chipset may slow it down perhaps contributing to the high cpu usage at dialup connection, it's a bug with VIA. When you reinstalled did you reformat and reinstall or did you reinstall over windows, only a clean installation will clean up to the original state. Are you running the latest drivers for all your hardware. Have you tried moving cards to different slots on the motherboard, some boards are picky and need a reminder from time to time. A tip is coming ;-) Peter Kaulback From zealot at sneakernet.dhs.org Sun Dec 30 09:05:10 2001 From: zealot at sneakernet.dhs.org (zealot) Date: Sun Dec 30 09:05:10 2001 Subject: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011230085042.034f5108@mail.idirect.ca> Message-ID: <000401c19143$0ea05730$2a01a8c0@HABANERO> Do you have a large HOSTS file and are running Windows 2000? If so, reduce the number of entries to less than a dozen and see if that helps (backup your original HOSTS file first). Do you have ACPI enabled in BIOS? If, so disable it and see if that helps. :: -----Original Message----- :: From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org :: [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Peter Kaulback :: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 7:59 AM :: To: thelist at lists.evolt.org :: Subject: Re: [thelist] Win2K - Services.exe 100% CPU usage :: :: :: At 01:27 PM 12/30/2001 +0530, you wrote: :: >Recently, Windows Media Player stopped stretching MPEG :: files to fit the :: >window, and played it only at the original size. I tried to find a :: >solution to this (including thelist), but couldn't. My last :: resort was :: >reinstalling Windows (it's bloody annoying that it :: reinstalls IE5 over my IE6). :: > :: >This didn't fix the Media Player problem, unfortunately. But it :: >apparently :: >changed the startup type of some services back to default :( :: > :: >I turned off all unnecessary services again (setting them :: to "Manual" :: >instead of "Disabled") and the problem is fixed. :: :: What type of motherboard do you have in your system, and :: does it contain a :: VIA chipset? If you have a PCI modem then the VIA chipset :: may slow it down :: perhaps contributing to the high cpu usage at dialup :: connection, it's a bug :: with VIA. When you reinstalled did you reformat and :: reinstall or did you :: reinstall over windows, only a clean installation will clean :: up to the :: original state. Are you running the latest drivers for all your :: hardware. Have you tried moving cards to different slots on the :: motherboard, some boards are picky and need a reminder from :: time to time. A tip is coming ;-) :: :: Peter Kaulback :: :: :: -- :: For unsubscribe and other options, including :: the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From hgquinn at attglobal.net Sun Dec 30 10:06:10 2001 From: hgquinn at attglobal.net (Heather Quinn) Date: Sun Dec 30 10:06:10 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3C2F3C3D.20807@attglobal.net> Lots of white can be pleasant, so I don't see that as a negative. What you're missing is dynamics. The expanse of white does nothing to offset this. Header 2 has the best dynamics, due to the logotype cutout's strong shape and the way it focuses the eye on the logo; and the dense texture/depth you've achieved via the shades-of-grey and dark red typographic interplay in the rest of the header. Since you have a big investment in the header's design, consider adding dyanamics via color mods (more saturation, more varied palette, bigger range of values, or some such change). I'm personally not a big fan of using just two complementary colors against white or a neutral, as a base color scheme. Why? Artistically, it hints at risk-taking (strong color contrast) without actually taking the risk (white always buffers the contrast), esp. when one of the two colors is dulled down, as here (the red). Emotionally, it reads as simultaneously strong and hesitant, which makes me feel uncomfortable cause I can't resolve the opposing qualities. Imagine getting dressed. Would you put grey chinos with a white shirt, dark red belt, and bright green socks? Nope. Switch the socks and shirt colors. Again, nope. OK, it's more formal. Grey suit with lighter grey pinstripes, white shirt, dark red and bright green striped tie? No way. Got to change that tie's colors somehow. You're doing business colors, but there's no reason not to throw a little hot stuff in there. In fact, many of the most successful businessmen tend to be really great at using color when they dress. Why? They're optimistic and full of life, and express this in their clothing choices. Their appearance, including their choice of colors, raises the morale of those around them, creating in others an increased willingness to accept and support what these guys promote, which gives these guys a competitive edge. So consider adding a bit more risk or lightheartedness to the color intensities, range of values, etc.. Some change of this kind will give your header enough interest to make it work the way you want it to. Daniel J. Cody wrote: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:07:01 -0500 >From: Amy Gilliland >To: Evolt >Subject: site header and logo > >I'm having trouble with a new design for a site header. > >The logo was designed to look best on a white background but the content >will be on a white background so ... too much white. (see screenshot) > >I've decided to put the logo section in white and the rest in a light >grey-green but it's not quite right. > >any ideas???? > >some examples and screenshot > >http://www.geosolutions.com/about/headers.htm > > >/************************************** >Amy Gilliland >GeoSolutions Consulting Inc. >Web Developer/Programmer >agilliland at geosolutions.com >http://www.geosolutions.com >http://mapinfo.geosolutions.com > -- Cheers, Heather Quinn info at windyhilldesign.com http://www.windyhilldesign.com hgquinn at attglobal.net http://pws.prserv.net/windyhill From joel at spinhead.com Sun Dec 30 11:00:17 2001 From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Sun Dec 30 11:00:17 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3C2F3C3D.20807@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <000201c19153$dfb46860$6401a8c0@eratosthenes> Heather, the things you discuss here cover one of the largest holes in my skillset - use of color. I think all of us could really benefit from an article (or series of articles) expanding and explaining your comments below. Techy folks like me who are trying to get a grip on the artistic aspects of the web would really love a practical how-to, with both theory and specific examples. Your writing style is easy to read. Could I ask you to please consider a bit of writing for evolt.org? I for one would eat it up. Thanks for the great comments. Joel at spinhead.com -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Heather Quinn Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 8:10 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) [ . . . ] You're doing business colors, but there's no reason not to throw a little hot stuff in there. In fact, many of the most successful businessmen tend to be really great at using color when they dress. Why? They're optimistic and full of life, and express this in their clothing choices. Their appearance, including their choice of colors, raises the morale of those around them, creating in others an increased willingness to accept and support what these guys promote, which gives these guys a competitive edge. So consider adding a bit more risk or lightheartedness to the color intensities, range of values, etc.. Some change of this kind will give your header enough interest to make it work the way you want it to. [ . . . ] -- Cheers, Heather Quinn info at windyhilldesign.com http://www.windyhilldesign.com hgquinn at attglobal.net http://pws.prserv.net/windyhill From mccreath at ak.net Sun Dec 30 11:54:50 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (mccreath) Date: Sun Dec 30 11:54:50 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <000901c19107$19f43d40$0100a8c0@intelligence> Message-ID: > From: Mustapha Ali > > Hello, > > This is my first major project and I would like to get feedback from you > guys.........i know there are some bugs like improper displaying of the > CSS in Netscape (could I get help with that????).......but so far > everything works well with IE......thanks a lot. Hi, Mustapha -- Can we get a URL? thanks, David From damiencola at wanadoo.fr Sun Dec 30 12:07:29 2001 From: damiencola at wanadoo.fr (Alliax) Date: Sun Dec 30 12:07:29 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) In-Reply-To: <3C2F3C3D.20807@attglobal.net> Message-ID: Heather, I too, am interested in the use of colors, even if I haven't much theory to base myself on. In my sites I tend to use randomness to choose colorization I choose randomly the base color, then I change the luminosity for others gradients. I'd like to know a simple algorythm to pass from an RGB value R = 0-255 G = 0-255 V = 0-255 to its complementary color. I've read somewhere that I should transform RGB into HSV and then make some angles rotation and then convert back to RGB. I have no idea what HSV is yet, but would you know of a simple way of obtaining the complementary color from a RGB color ? my site which uses dynamic colorization the most is http://www.toulonparadise.com it's in french but it's secondary in this matter. Cordialement, __ Alliax ~CV : http://LingoParadise.com/cv.php Un site pour Toulon : http://www.ToulonParadise.com Un site pour Renaud : http://www.rfaucilhon.com Un site pour Director : http://www.LingoParadise.com http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From Ed at ComSimplicity.com Sun Dec 30 13:18:43 2001 From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Ed McCarroll) Date: Sun Dec 30 13:18:43 2001 Subject: [thelist] IE Problem - [perhaps a bit OT] In-Reply-To: <003901c190c9$3fe541e0$c432893e@woody> Message-ID: Just a couple of quick guesses... Did you make sure IE isn't in the Startup folder? I think Win95 has a utility that will get you to all the ways startup programs are hooked in. (Win98 does.) Try START | RUN | MSCONFIG, and then be really careful what you change. Could "ie4tour.dll/welcome.htm" be what IE is trying to use as a home page, and could it be failing because it's a part of the IE 4.0 installation which was replaced by IE5? > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Olly > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:31 PM > To: theList at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] IE Problem - [perhaps a bit OT] > > > Hi all, > > I'm messing about on my mum's PC - using Win95. After replacing the modem > (the old one had hamsters in it) I downloaded IE5.5SP2 and > installed it. And > now whenever I start up the PC I get the IE4 Welcome window pop > up. Except > it looks for res://ie4tour.dll/welcome.htm then comes up with the cannot > find server error. So there is no "dont show me this again" checkbox type > thing. From hgquinn at attglobal.net Sun Dec 30 14:43:53 2001 From: hgquinn at attglobal.net (Heather Quinn) Date: Sun Dec 30 14:43:53 2001 Subject: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) References: <000201c19153$dfb46860$6401a8c0@eratosthenes> Message-ID: <3C2F7D50.1080902@attglobal.net> I'm no color expert. It's easier be a ciritic than to create. My background is fine arts and programming. Fine arts is really different from design. I consider design to be a higher-level, harder skill to build than fine art skills, which rely so much on intuition. In design, you need to let your intuition flow *and* know what you're doing -- get visually analytical, etc. And I'm still working on that :). If my writing was easy to read it was cause I was addressing y'all, and so took 40 minutes of editing and rediting to make that post work. So, your request for an expansion of this discussion might be better taken up by some of the more experienced designers on the list. Any volunteers for a color article? (...but if no one else volunteers an article on color, then I'll do one.) Joel D Canfield wrote: >Heather, the things you discuss here cover one of the largest holes in >my skillset - use of color. I think all of us could really benefit from >an article (or series of articles) expanding and explaining your >comments below. Techy folks like me who are trying to get a grip on the >artistic aspects of the web would really love a practical how-to, with >both theory and specific examples. > >Your writing style is easy to read. Could I ask you to please consider a >bit of writing for evolt.org? I for one would eat it up. > >Thanks for the great comments. > >Joel at spinhead.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org >[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Heather Quinn >Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 8:10 AM >To: thelist at lists.evolt.org >Subject: Re: [thelist] site header and logo (fwd) > >[ . . . ] > >You're doing business colors, but there's no reason not to throw a >little hot stuff in there. In fact, many of the most successful >businessmen tend to be really great at using color when they dress. > Why? They're optimistic and full of life, and express this in their >clothing choices. Their appearance, including their choice of colors, >raises the morale of those around them, creating in others an increased >willingness to accept and support what these guys promote, which gives >these guys a competitive edge. > >So consider adding a bit more risk or lightheartedness to the color >intensities, range of values, etc.. Some change of this kind will give >your header enough interest to make it work the way you want it to. > >[ . . . ] > -- Cheers, Heather Quinn info at windyhilldesign.com http://www.windyhilldesign.com hgquinn at attglobal.net http://pws.prserv.net/windyhill From hgquinn at attglobal.net Sun Dec 30 15:22:18 2001 From: hgquinn at attglobal.net (Heather Quinn) Date: Sun Dec 30 15:22:18 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) References: Message-ID: <3C2F8654.8010004@attglobal.net> By complement, I assume you are using the technical term meaning an opposing color, and that you don't mean "complimentary", or a harmonizing, color. My seat-ot-the-pants approach to getting a perfect complement is to take the color I want to create a complement for and reverse the three RGB values. If pure blue's RGB triplet values are 0/0/255, my method calculates its complement as 255/0/0. This is yellow, which is the correct complement of pure blue in the RGB light-based system. This approach takes the RGB value triplet, and subtracts each of the 3 values from 255, then uses each remainder to replace each of the three original values. So a golden color that's 204/153/51 would have a complement of 51/102/204, which is a warm blue. I think the reason this seems to work visually is that in light-based color, there's a maximum amount of light that can be distributed across the three color channels, and my little trick does a "negative" redistribution of light across each channel, which keeps the total light value the same, but flips the color balance. This may be technically incorrect, but the resulting values look complementary to me, in that they vibrate against each other. They are also the same colors that result if, in PS, you do a color fill, select it, then do Image, Adjust, Invert. But if I'm giving out misinformation, I hope someone will chime in to correct me. Alliax wrote: >Heather, I too, am interested in the use of colors, even if I haven't much >theory to base myself on. >In my sites I tend to use randomness to choose colorization >I choose randomly the base color, then I change the luminosity for others >gradients. > >I'd like to know a simple algorythm to pass from an RGB value >R = 0-255 >G = 0-255 >V = 0-255 >to its complementary color. > >I've read somewhere that I should transform RGB into HSV and then make some >angles rotation and then convert back to RGB. >I have no idea what HSV is yet, but would you know of a simple way of >obtaining the complementary color from a RGB color ? > >my site which uses dynamic colorization the most is >http://www.toulonparadise.com it's in french but it's secondary in this >matter. > >Cordialement, > >__ Alliax ~CV : http://LingoParadise.com/cv.php >Un site pour Toulon : http://www.ToulonParadise.com >Un site pour Renaud : http://www.rfaucilhon.com >Un site pour Director : http://www.LingoParadise.com >http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > > -- Cheers, Heather Quinn info at windyhilldesign.com http://www.windyhilldesign.com hgquinn at attglobal.net http://pws.prserv.net/windyhill From persist1 at io.com Sun Dec 30 16:06:33 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Sun Dec 30 16:06:33 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Alliax wrote: > Heather, I too, am interested in the use of colors, even if I haven't much > theory to base myself on. > In my sites I tend to use randomness to choose colorization > I choose randomly the base color, then I change the luminosity for others > gradients. > > I'd like to know a simple algorythm to pass from an RGB value > R = 0-255 > G = 0-255 > V = 0-255 > to its complementary color. Well... Photoshop's invert command just does the following to each pixel: Inverse == (255 - Orig) If you're looking to preserve saturation and brightness, the easiest approach is simply to put in the value into Photoshop's color picker that is 180deg removed (Image > Adjust... > Hue/Saturation also works for this purpose.) There is a way to do it, though I don't know what it is... I found some Java code here: http://www.examsky.com/jglossh.html [under 'HSB'] that might provide a few clues, as might this list of links: http://www.efg2.com/Lab/Library/Color/Science.htm The Google search I used to find these links was 'rgb hsb convert formula' (no quotes, of course). > I've read somewhere that I should transform RGB into HSV and then make some > angles rotation and then convert back to RGB. > I have no idea what HSV is yet, but would you know of a simple way of > obtaining the complementary color from a RGB color ? All right, for follow-up's sake: H = Hue (where is it on the color wheel?) S = Saturation (the closer to grey, the less saturated) B = Brightness (do I have to explain this? also referred to as Value - which actually belongs to a different model if I understand correctly) Actually, I took a second look and found this (as written in C, I think): http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ncs/color/t_convert.html The HSB model works as follows (in this instance, I'll use percentages for all three values): If your Hue value is 0% or 100%, the color produced is red. If it's 50%, the color produced is cyan. Thus 33% would be green, and 67% blue. A more detailed explanation of this can be found at: http://webdesign.about.com/library/weekly/aa111201a.htm A Saturation value of 0% will always be on the greyscale; if your Saturation value is 100%, the corresponding RGB value will have at least one channel with a value of zero. When Brightness is set to 0%, the result is (always, regardless of the other values) black; if it's 100%, the corresponding RGB value will have at least one channel with a value of 100% (255). These statements are easy (and perhaps even fun) to test with the color picker of your favorite graphics software. HTH -- Ben Henick Web Author At-Large Managing Editor http://www.io.com/persist1/ http://www.digital-web.com/ persist1 at io.com bmh at digital-web.com -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?" "I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid." "We will disguise ourselves as a cow." "Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!" From asifsuria at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 17:00:19 2001 From: asifsuria at yahoo.com (Asif Suria) Date: Sun Dec 30 17:00:19 2001 Subject: [thelist] too many bots In-Reply-To: <000301c184c3$09b41310$0100a8c0@UrDaDDY> Message-ID: <20011230230026.33705.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for this information Aleem. I was looking for a good software to analyze our server logs. --- Aleem wrote: > > Say, while we're talking about logs, what do you > use to read > > them? We're using Webalyzer right now and it > s?cks. > > http://awstats.sourceforge.net > > -aleem __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From damiencola at wanadoo.fr Sun Dec 30 20:05:56 2001 From: damiencola at wanadoo.fr (Alliax) Date: Sun Dec 30 20:05:56 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) In-Reply-To: <3C2F8654.8010004@attglobal.net> Message-ID: Hello, thanks for both your and Ben's answers. Thanks to Ben who's found the RGB2HSV function: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ncs/color/t_convert.html Heather, I was not interrested in getting the inverse of a RGB color, because I already worked the solution out, it wasn't that hard :-) But as far as my art theory goes, inverse colours are not specialy useful visually, except for black and white.. (perhaps I don't see the obvious usefulness of inverse colours?) It was just that I recently heard of a complimentary color to each color, and I thought I could use that in order to create visually pleasing sites without choosing the base colour myself. Since I'll do it in PHP, I think once you have converted your RGB values to HSV, you have to do a rotation of the H angle, change a little bit (random offset) S and V values for not looking too rigid in the choice of colours. Then you'll have to convert back your new HSV values to RGB in order to use them in HTML table borders and likewise graphical elements on your page. from what I understood, the rotation of H angle should be 180? I take this from this page: http://www.liquisoft.com/color.html I think it's correct, I'll report to evolt about that after my tests if it's wrong. I'll do testing on toulonparadise.com as soon as I have the courage, surely next year :-) Thanks again Cordialement, __ Alliax ~CV : http://LingoParadise.com/cv.php Un site pour Toulon : http://www.ToulonParadise.com Un site pour Renaud : http://www.rfaucilhon.com Un site pour Director : http://www.LingoParadise.com From damiencola at wanadoo.fr Sun Dec 30 20:19:14 2001 From: damiencola at wanadoo.fr (Alliax) Date: Sun Dec 30 20:19:14 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Simply to add that from the text on the page http://www.liquisoft.com/color.html I noticed also that instead of using a 180? rotation, using a +60? or -60? for the rotation of the H angle, would provide the sort of effect this page uses, colors that goes together well (blue and green) Mastering the HSV model (and the small trigo maths involved, never worked it out totally yet) would also provide more convenient ways of using the notion of warm / cool colors than in RGB. -- an example of using these notions would be: if user's computer time is daylight, dynamic site shows a mix of warm colors and some uses of complimentary colors. if it's evening, night time uses cold colours, and all in nuances, by using 30 to 60? rotations only. Good night. Cordialement, __ Alliax ~CV : http://LingoParadise.com/cv.php Un site pour Toulon : http://www.ToulonParadise.com Un site pour Renaud : http://www.rfaucilhon.com Un site pour Director : http://www.LingoParadise.com -----Message d'origine----- De : thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]De la part de Alliax Envoy? : lundi 31 d?cembre 2001 03:04 ? : thelist at lists.evolt.org Objet : RE: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) Hello, thanks for both your and Ben's answers. Thanks to Ben who's found the RGB2HSV function: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ncs/color/t_convert.html Heather, I was not interrested in getting the inverse of a RGB color, because I already worked the solution out, it wasn't that hard :-) But as far as my art theory goes, inverse colours are not specialy useful visually, except for black and white.. (perhaps I don't see the obvious usefulness of inverse colours?) It was just that I recently heard of a complimentary color to each color, and I thought I could use that in order to create visually pleasing sites without choosing the base colour myself. Since I'll do it in PHP, I think once you have converted your RGB values to HSV, you have to do a rotation of the H angle, change a little bit (random offset) S and V values for not looking too rigid in the choice of colours. Then you'll have to convert back your new HSV values to RGB in order to use them in HTML table borders and likewise graphical elements on your page. from what I understood, the rotation of H angle should be 180? I take this from this page: http://www.liquisoft.com/color.html I think it's correct, I'll report to evolt about that after my tests if it's wrong. I'll do testing on toulonparadise.com as soon as I have the courage, surely next year :-) Thanks again Cordialement, __ Alliax ~CV : http://LingoParadise.com/cv.php Un site pour Toulon : http://www.ToulonParadise.com Un site pour Renaud : http://www.rfaucilhon.com Un site pour Director : http://www.LingoParadise.com -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From mali_subscribe at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 21:24:41 2001 From: mali_subscribe at yahoo.com (Mustapha Ali) Date: Sun Dec 30 21:24:41 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <032001c19109$cc44f910$0100a8c0@josh> Message-ID: <000201c191aa$7fb8a640$0100a8c0@intelligence> Sorry guys........could've sworn I stuck the URL in there somewhere.......here it is: http://www.procicaribe.org all feedback is appreciated........i'm learning as I go along......thanks a lot. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Joshua D. Studd Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:13 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Review requested: My first project Got an address? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mustapha Ali" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 6:53 PM Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project > Hello, > > This is my first major project and I would like to get feedback from you > guys.........i know there are some bugs like improper displaying of the > CSS in Netscape (could I get help with that????).......but so far > everything works well with IE......thanks a lot. > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From persist1 at io.com Sun Dec 30 21:41:33 2001 From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick) Date: Sun Dec 30 21:41:33 2001 Subject: [thelist] The use of color (was site header and logo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Alliax wrote: > Hello, thanks for both your and Ben's answers. > > Thanks to Ben who's found the RGB2HSV function: > http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ncs/color/t_convert.html > > Heather, I was not interrested in getting the inverse of a RGB color, > because I already worked the solution out, it wasn't that hard :-) D'oh! I remember making the same suggestion. > But as far as my art theory goes, inverse colours are not specialy useful > visually, except for black and white.. (perhaps I don't see the obvious > usefulness of inverse colours?) Actually, there is one that comes immediately to mind: for high/low brightness values, inverse colors provide good contrast. The hard part is coming up with an accent color that fits both those colors and the intent of your design. If anyone here has undertaken formal study of color theory as it applies to doing design in the Real World, they've probably had some instruction on which accent colors work well with a given pair of inverse colors. > It was just that I recently heard of a complimentary color to each color, > and I thought I could use that in order to create visually pleasing sites > without choosing the base colour myself. Erm, while intriguing I'm not sure what the application of such an approach would be. The associations made by a given culture with the range of visible hues are often too strong to be ignored by any designer, unless their intent is to deliberately "break the rules." Perhaps that's exactly what you're trying to do here. When you factor in other considerations such as ambient light, color-deficient visitors, and type usage, it quickly becomes apparent that the traditions associated with applied color theory came into being for excellent (and often entirely practical) reasons. > Since I'll do it in PHP, I think once you have converted your RGB values to > HSV, you have to do a rotation of the H angle, change a little bit (random > offset) S and V values for not looking too rigid in the choice of colours. > Then you'll have to convert back your new HSV values to RGB in order to use > them in HTML table borders and likewise graphical elements on your page. > > from what I understood, the rotation of H angle should be 180? ...For complements, yes. 60deg and 180deg values suggest primary <=> secondary, while 30deg and 90deg suggest primary <=> tertiary and secondary <=> tertiary. This concept applies just as well (if not more effectively) to RGB color than to the other commonly used models; in a primary color, one channel is predominant; in a secondary color, two channels are predominant; and in a tertiary color there is an obvious mathematical relationship between *all three* channels. Before I go, I want to point out the following: http://www.digital-web.com/columns/digisect/digisect_2001-04.shtml which disucusses effective ways to use "official-looking" colors, specifically those between green and blue. -- Ben Henick Web Author At-Large Managing Editor http://www.io.com/persist1/ http://www.digital-web.com/ persist1 at io.com bmh at digital-web.com -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?" "I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid." "We will disguise ourselves as a cow." "Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!" From mg at markgroen.com Sun Dec 30 22:47:03 2001 From: mg at markgroen.com (Mark Groen) Date: Sun Dec 30 22:47:03 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project References: <000201c191aa$7fb8a640$0100a8c0@intelligence> Message-ID: <001a01c191b5$dc975d60$6501a8c0@cr10746a> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mustapha Ali" To: Sent: December 30, 2001 7:23 PM Subject: RE: [thelist] Review requested: My first project > Sorry guys........could've sworn I stuck the URL in there > somewhere.......here it is: > > http://www.procicaribe.org > > all feedback is appreciated........i'm learning as I go > along......thanks a lot. > Lots of pages, the text was too light, (grey on white), for me to read well on my monitor. In your bodyText.css file you can drop the margin and padding attributes as they are set to zero anyways and old versions of NN have a problem with one of those attributes - padding I think? My eyes aren't what they used to be, and it would have been nice to increase the font size a little but I couldn't easily, as the font sizes are set to pixels instead of something like ems. Just looked at your other CSS files, looks like they could be combined into one, and you can drop the margin and padding attributes on the other two also. On the home page still, between your map of the Carib and the Welcome blurb you have a number of

 

spaces, way too many as the Welcome blurb first sentence barely shows up on the bottom of a 15" monitor set at 800x600. Easy to navigate site, well laid out with lots of information, but just a little hard to read. HTH! Mark Groen MG Web Services Web Site Hosting and Development www.markgroen.com mg at markgroen.com 604-780-6917 Vancouver, Canada From mali_subscribe at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 22:59:21 2001 From: mali_subscribe at yahoo.com (Mustapha Ali) Date: Sun Dec 30 22:59:21 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <001a01c191b5$dc975d60$6501a8c0@cr10746a> Message-ID: <000001c191b7$b8e93b20$0100a8c0@intelligence> Thanks a lot Mark......the site still has got a long way to go........i haven't started to clean up the coding as yet......i'm concentrating on getting content up (and believe me when I say the content is coming in sloooow)......i'd say by the end of February the coding will be much improved..........thanks for your feedback. -----Original Message----- From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Mark Groen Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 12:44 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Review requested: My first project Lots of pages, the text was too light, (grey on white), for me to read well on my monitor. In your bodyText.css file you can drop the margin and padding attributes as they are set to zero anyways and old versions of NN have a problem with one of those attributes - padding I think? My eyes aren't what they used to be, and it would have been nice to increase the font size a little but I couldn't easily, as the font sizes are set to pixels instead of something like ems. Just looked at your other CSS files, looks like they could be combined into one, and you can drop the margin and padding attributes on the other two also. On the home page still, between your map of the Carib and the Welcome blurb you have a number of

 

spaces, way too many as the Welcome blurb first sentence barely shows up on the bottom of a 15" monitor set at 800x600. Easy to navigate site, well laid out with lots of information, but just a little hard to read. HTH! Mark Groen MG Web Services Web Site Hosting and Development www.markgroen.com mg at markgroen.com 604-780-6917 Vancouver, Canada -- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From seahorse at inreach.com Sun Dec 30 23:36:57 2001 From: seahorse at inreach.com (C Williams) Date: Sun Dec 30 23:36:57 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project References: <000201c191aa$7fb8a640$0100a8c0@intelligence> Message-ID: <000f01c191bd$1d3c6bb0$e09efea9@dual700> It is a drastic improvement over the old site. Very drastic. 1. I think I would move the content over on the inside pages. The are all left aligned and it is almost flush up to the edge of the left side of the page, and maybe use bullets for the sub points. I like the overall layout...very consistent. 2. Carinet and biosystematics link to the same page. The cryptic words and the simple words link to the same pages. I suppose your users will understand this, but it took me a few to find the matches. 3. The blinking headlines is the only thing that *really* bothered me....it really takes away from the site. 4. No real banner for the inside pages...but it looks like this is still in the works and you are probably doing this anyhow. Chris (not a guy) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mustapha Ali" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 7:23 PM Subject: RE: [thelist] Review requested: My first project > Sorry guys........could've sworn I stuck the URL in there > somewhere.......here it is: > > http://www.procicaribe.org > > all feedback is appreciated........i'm learning as I go > along......thanks a lot. > From thelist at cbizz.net Sun Dec 30 23:46:57 2001 From: thelist at cbizz.net (profjj) Date: Sun Dec 30 23:46:57 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <001a01c191b5$dc975d60$6501a8c0@cr10746a> Message-ID: <000001c191bd$7935f3f0$67d780ce@quicksilver> Mustapha, >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>> > > Sorry guys........could've sworn I stuck the URL in there > > somewhere.......here it is: > > > > http://www.procicaribe.org > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>> One thing about design, is to make allownace for as many possible scenarios as possible. - What if I turned off my Javascript? Then your site is left with no navigation. Maybe a good idea is to :~ A) All of the links at the top for the menu ~ "Procaribe, Capgernet,...". Instead of the #, tie in a page with the plain links for all the pages in the drop down menu. B) Have a sitemap of all the major pages, that way everyone is taken care of. C) Have some text links somewhere on the site. - the headlines graphic looks a bit jaggered @ the top edge, when It blinks. - not a must, but might look a bit better, why not leave procicaribe logo @ the top left corner on all the pages, and then have the other sites logo in the right hand side. -also, u could remove the extra comments that really are not necessary "" -The page last updated, could be positioned near the bottom, preferably not @ the top, as it looks like that is one of the main focal points of the page. - http://www.procicaribe.org/main/structure.htm ~ on this page, you can use an alt text for the image, should it get broken up and/or for better accessibilty. Other than that gr8 job. Profjj thelist at cbizz.net http://www.cbizz.net St. Lucia From thelist at cbizz.net Sun Dec 30 23:47:01 2001 From: thelist at cbizz.net (profjj) Date: Sun Dec 30 23:47:01 2001 Subject: [thelist] Review requested: My first project In-Reply-To: <001a01c191b5$dc975d60$6501a8c0@cr10746a> Message-ID: <000101c191bd$7fb79a30$67d780ce@quicksilver> Mustapha, >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>> > > Sorry guys........could've sworn I stuck the URL in there > > somewhere.......here it is: > > > > http://www.procicaribe.org > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>> One thing about design, is to make allownace for as many possible scenarios as possible. - What if I turned off my Javascript? Then your site is left with no navigation. Maybe a good idea is to :~ A) All of the links at the top for the menu ~ "Procaribe, Capgernet,...". Instead of the #, tie in a page with the plain links for all the pages in the drop down menu. B) Have a sitemap of all the major pages, that way everyone is taken care of. C) Have some text links somewhere on the site. - the headlines graphic looks a bit jaggered @ the top edge, when It blinks. - not a must, but might look a bit better, why not leave procicaribe logo @ the top left corner on all the pages, and then have the other sites logo in the right hand side. -also, u could remove the extra comments that really are not necessary "" -The page last updated, could be positioned near the bottom, preferably not @ the top, as it looks like that is one of the main focal points of the page. - http://www.procicaribe.org/main/structure.htm ~ on this page, you can use an alt text for the image, should it get broken up and/or for better accessibilty. Other than that gr8 job. Profjj thelist at cbizz.net http://www.cbizz.net St. Lucia