From bpjonsson at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 15:23:49 2010 From: bpjonsson at gmail.com (BP Jonsson) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:23:49 +0200 Subject: [thelist] Garbled style attributes on .asp page Message-ID: Hi, This is my first post to the list. If it is OT I hereby apologize profoundly! I'm under time pressure and need urgent help, and don't know where to turn. I'm required to visit a certain web page with the (telltale?) name index.asp The problem is that the newer content on the page doesn't show up in any browser but Opera -- and, reportedly, in Internet Explorer -- which doesn't yet exist for my OS and likely never will! --, but if I view the page source I see garbled stuff like below: broken style attributes, with uppercase css keywords -- is that even permissible? --, missing closing tags and who knows what lost in between. There are a few lines with content text in between such broken tags, some of which I've copied, but I've replaced all content text, which doesn't seem broken anyway with the word "CONTENT" in order to preserve confidentiality. I suspect something is badly amiss with their CMS -- either the database or the presentation program -- or perhaps somebody has done some copy-pasting from another program which misfired? I'd like to report this to their webmaster, since I do need to be able to read the site from my own computer, but I feel I need to have something helpful to suggest rather than just complaining. However, truth to say, I have no real idea what's going on, only that something is plainly horribly wrong! I've tried to google, but since Google ignores punctuation nothing useful turns up. I'd be very thankful if someone can point me towards an explanation/solution to suggest. They're clearly using software I never used on an OS I don't use anymore! Apologies if the excerpt below is too long or wholly inappropriate. I hope it shows up as text rather than mailers believing it's intended as -- shudder -- HTML email... TIA, /bpj
*** I've snipped several essentially identical lines here... ***

CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT

CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT

CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT

CONTENT

CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENTCONTENT

CONTENT
CONTENT
CONTENT

From joel at bizba6.com Mon Sep 6 16:45:15 2010 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 14:45:15 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Garbled style attributes on .asp page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 1:23 PM, BP Jonsson wrote: > but if I view the page source I see garbled stuff like > below: someone has used Microsoft Word or its ilk to 'save as HTML' (as if!) which produces this, um, 'code' but I don't think I actually understand your question completely joel -- Joel at CanfieldOfDreams.com Can a California family leave their stuff behind & embrace a nomadic lifestyle? http://CanfieldOfDreams.com From david at chelseacreekstudio.com Mon Sep 6 16:46:08 2010 From: david at chelseacreekstudio.com (David Laakso) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:46:08 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Garbled style attributes on .asp page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C856120.1040802@chelseacreekstudio.com> On 9/6/10 4:23 PM, BP Jonsson wrote: > Hi, > > This is my first post to the list. If it is OT I hereby > apologize profoundly! I'm under time pressure and need > urgent help, and don't know where to turn. > Dunno, but worth a shot...? Backup the file. Run it through. Tidy will correct most all the html errors and assign a doctype. Correct the remaining 3 or 4 errors by-hand and validate the html. Shows in Mac FF and Mac Safari. Did not check ay other OSes/browsers. Best, ~d -- :: desktop and mobile :: http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ From alex.beston at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 04:51:57 2010 From: alex.beston at gmail.com (Alex Beston) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:51:57 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? Message-ID: Hi list I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and "just the basics". I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as such. -- rgds, Alex blarg: bit.ly/old-log --------------------------------------------------------------------- From barney.carroll at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 05:23:13 2010 From: barney.carroll at gmail.com (Barney Carroll) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:23:13 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you're self-employed or running a business, you may not have the luxurious option of turning away naive, condescending, or cheapskate clients. There's plenty of open cynicism in the world of web for nightmare clients who continuously patronise the crafts of hard-working and sincere professionals, but without them, there would not be enough clients to go around. I'd certainly be a lot poorer without them. At the same time, a polite and sincere response can often nip that attitude in the bud. If you quietly announce that you're not in the habit of making things unnecessarily elaborate or complicated, but will deliver to budget if it appears reasonable, you get human dignity on your side ? any further insidious remarks by said client along the lines of "cheaper, faster, stupider, worse", provided the initial terms weren't ludicrous, can then be rightfully responded to as a crude insults to your professional integrity :) (smiley not intended to diminish utter seriousness of preceding statement). Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carroll at gmail.com 07594 506 381 On 7 September 2010 10:51, Alex Beston wrote: > Hi list > > I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. > > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". > > I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as > such. > > > -- > rgds, Alex > > blarg: bit.ly/old-log > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From simonmacdonald at uk2.net Tue Sep 7 06:12:21 2010 From: simonmacdonald at uk2.net (Simon MacDonald) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:12:21 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01cb4e7d$8ef63610$ace2a230$@net> I have had a potential client who wanted a CMS based site, of 50+pages, several different page templates, that was 100% customisable by himself when finished, free hosting, completed within 10 (elapsed days) and he didn't want to spend more than ?500. I politely declined and he was quite miffed that I didn't want his custom. Simon -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Alex Beston Sent: 07 September 2010 10:52 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? Hi list I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and "just the basics". I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as such. -- rgds, Alex blarg: bit.ly/old-log --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5428 (20100906) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5430 (20100907) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From john at johnallsopp.co.uk Tue Sep 7 06:43:28 2010 From: john at johnallsopp.co.uk (john at johnallsopp.co.uk) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 07:43:28 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: <002f01cb4e7d$8ef63610$ace2a230$@net> References: <002f01cb4e7d$8ef63610$ace2a230$@net> Message-ID: > I have had a potential client who wanted a CMS based site, of 50+pages, > several different page templates, that was 100% customisable by himself > when > finished, free hosting, completed within 10 (elapsed days) and he didn't > want to spend more than ?500. I politely declined and he was quite miffed > that I didn't want his custom. > > Simon Have you seen the expectations of people who want content writing? 400 words of great copy, ?5 a time. J From fredthejonester at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:46:02 2010 From: fredthejonester at gmail.com (Fred Jones) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:46:02 +0300 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". > > I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as > such. I think it depends. If he's just naive then for sure talk to him. He could be simply an honest person who thinks that's what he wants and doesn't know much more than that about websites. I have had clients like that. Just ask for details and you will see... HTH From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 7 10:36:25 2010 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:36:25 -0600 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C865BF9.2000008@dottedi.biz> Alex Beston wrote: > Hi list > > I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. > > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". > > I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as > such. > Pretty much in line with what you heard back already, it's good policy to reply politely. It takes time to learn how to sort though these types of queries and make internal assessments efficiently. When you're first getting started you're so hungry to get jobs that you diligently and thoroughly respond to even the most ridiculous requests. So you take some bumps and bruises over time and learn, hopefully, from the experience, where to concentrate your efforts. Bargain hunters seem to have infinite time to spend looking for the bigger better deal. Also, having spent time surfing, they see these elaborate solutions but not the work that goes behind them. Can you do this like on xyz.com? The sooner you can identify these research-intensive proposals, the better off you'll be. If it looks like some technology that you want to learn, then maybe you cut a deal with yourself. It's your time or their time. -- Bob Meetin From joel at bizba6.com Tue Sep 7 11:30:10 2010 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:30:10 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Alex Beston wrote: > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". I just finished a lightly customised WordPress installation for a local guy who has a mobile wood-fired pizza oven. We turned it around in 6 days. He was fantastic about getting the content to us and reviewing changes. He called asking for something simple and basic and wasn't even sure what that meant. We talked to him like a real human being, and had an absolute ball working with him. Is turning into some marvelous word-of-mouth for us in an under-served niche. (Might also result in some Neapolitan style pizza at our going-away party, if we have one.) I love simple basic sites. Unless someone clearly announces they're a jerk, I give them the benefit of the doubt. Pretty easy to see quickly where it's going. But don't take projects from cheap jerks just because you need money. Bad bad thinking, that. joel From kmulvihill at ca.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:28:49 2010 From: kmulvihill at ca.rr.com (Kevin Mulvihill) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:28:49 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I view such projects as an opportunity and always respond. Often, the client doesn't understand the potential of what can be accomplished. I find almost everyone to be reasonable when you talk with them. If they're not, I politely decline the opportunity to work with them. Kevin On 9/7/10 9:30 AM, "Joel D Canfield" wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Alex Beston wrote: > >> Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and >> "just the basics". From zachary.kent at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:11:40 2010 From: zachary.kent at gmail.com (Zachary Kent) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:11:40 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". > > I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as > such. > My advice is to educate your prospective clients. This shows the prospective client that you know your business and if they can afford you then they should hire you. Most times, the prospective client has no idea what something should cost but I try to take the time to hear out what they want and tell them what it will cost them. Most of the time that is the end of it but I have done my part by educating them about my industry including the complexities, risks, and cost of what they are asking. The hope is that they will either re-evaluate their budget or their expectations and hire me. If I treat them with respect they will also refer others to me that can afford me. I just did one of these initial consultations where they wanted to be better than their competitors but in the end they had little to no money. I am doing them a favor and sending them a detailed quote so they can either stop pestering me and my fellow web developers or she might go to the owner and enlighten him. From mwarden at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:32:39 2010 From: mwarden at gmail.com (Matt Warden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:32:39 -0500 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:51 AM, Alex Beston wrote: > Hi list > > I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. > > Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and > "just the basics". > > I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as > such. I'm going to disagree with some of the responses you've received so far. You're not in the business of educating potential customers on the very business they are trying to get into (running a site in some fashion). It leads to very long sales cycles, and your reward is peanuts for pay and headaches along the way. That said... In my experience a lot of time these are just folks who are very inexperienced with negotiating on price. If they really thought it was simple, they probably wouldn't be coming to you. They are using cue words like "simple", "quick", etc. in attempt to negotiate. So handle it like any other negotiation on price. I'd have the conversation with them. It's not necessarily a waste of time. And you don't have to be the party pooper who is instructing them on their naivet?. Just ask the right questions. "Have you thought about how you're going to handle X?" "What about the scenario when Y?" "Do you already have A, B, & C done and ready for me to take the next steps?" Each time you ask a question like this (to which you probably already know the answers), you're tipping the needle back a bit in the reasonable pricing direction. And it's not a lecture where you are explaining how the world works to them. (You should be able to get a feel in the first 10 minutes whether these guys are going to pay your market rate or not. If not, move on. Even in this economy, no one needs to be inviting headaches.) -- Matt Warden Austin, TX, USA http://mattwarden.com This email proudly and graciously contributes to entropy. From joel at bizba6.com Tue Sep 7 21:35:27 2010 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:35:27 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Matt Warden wrote: > (You should be able to get a feel in the first 10 minutes whether > these guys are going to pay your market rate or not. If not, move on. > Even in this economy, no one needs to be inviting headaches.) great stuff, Matt, all the way through. there are days when I love this list. From bobm at dottedi.biz Tue Sep 7 21:47:08 2010 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 20:47:08 -0600 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C86F92C.9040602@dottedi.biz> >> there are days when I love this list. But what we really want to know about is those days when you hate it - and why? Something I said or didn't say? The more quickly you ascertain the scope of the project, including educational and research needs, the easier your life well be. From moseley at hank.org Tue Sep 7 22:06:08 2010 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 20:06:08 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. Message-ID: Working on a few new pages and the designers want to provide users with a drop-down box to select from a list of items. The vast majority of current users have just a handful of items to select from -- most less than 100. Moving to testing we find out that a very small number of users have a huge number of items -- some have a 100,000+ items. Obviously, populating the list with AJAX request is the correct approach to prevent transfer huge amount of data to the client. But, there's no real point of providing a list that someone can scroll though for thousands and thousands of rows. Who's going to do that? I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question, not to mention short on specifics, but how do you handle a situation like this where the design calls for a drop-down for 99% of the users, but for 1% it's just not feasible and you don't know there's too many until you query the database. Would you do a count(*) first and then if over some number just offer up, say, an ajax search box? Even then a search might pull up too many. Just run the query to select the list but use a LIMIT and if over some "reasonable" length of a list add a "See more..." to the bottom of the list that goes to a page that's better designed for managing that many rows? If there's a natural order then just LIMIT to some number and say/document that only displays 100(?) most recent items? Sure, we will look at the database to see what performs well, but I'm just curious if you have a general approach to this kind of issue. -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From francesco at blackcoil.com Tue Sep 7 22:30:20 2010 From: francesco at blackcoil.com (Francesco) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 20:30:20 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I built an "auto-complete drop down" control for a client 2 years ago that has been implemented on over 150 distinct sites, all querying the same SQL database (or cached data sets, for performance enhancement). It's basically a medical term search engine where users type in things like "heart disease" "osteoporosis" "chest pain" and get an autocomplete drop down that updates via Ajax on every character typed after the first 2 characters, retrieving a fresh set of matching keywords, along with a count(*) of results for that keyword. VERY similar, and actually modeled after, Google Suggest. I would highly recommend this design. Customers love it, users love it, it's very speedy if the indices are designed well and EXTRA speedy if you cache data. I'm talking a set of 25,000 medical articles in XML in a SQL database, and about 250,000 tags (keywords) that are searched as the user types characters. My goal was to get my control to update itself AS FAST as Google Suggest, and it's pretty damn close. -- Francesco Sanfilippo, Microsoft ASP Insider ASP.NET, MVC, SQL Server, HTML/CSS/JQuery mobile: 702.272.8912 | francesco at blackcoil.com http://www.google.com/profiles/blackcoil On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Bill Moseley wrote: > Working on a few new pages and the designers want to provide users with a > drop-down box to select from a list of items. ?The vast majority of current > users have just a handful of items to select from -- most less than 100. > ?Moving to testing we find out that a very small number of users have a huge > number of items -- some have a 100,000+ items. > > Obviously, populating the list with AJAX request is the correct approach to > prevent transfer huge amount of data to the client. ?But, there's no real > point of providing a list that someone can scroll though for thousands and > thousands of rows. ?Who's going to do that? > > I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question, not to mention short on > specifics, but how do you handle a situation like this where the design > calls for a drop-down for 99% of the users, but for 1% it's just > not feasible and you don't know there's too many until you query the > database. > > Would you do a count(*) first and then if over some number just offer up, > say, an ajax search box? ?Even then a search might pull up too many. > > Just run the query to select the list but use a LIMIT and if over some > "reasonable" length of a list add a "See more..." to the bottom of the list > that goes to a page that's better designed for managing that many rows? > > If there's a natural order then just LIMIT to some number and say/document > that only displays 100(?) most recent items? > > Sure, we will look at the database to see what performs well, but I'm just > curious if you have a general approach to this kind of issue. > > -- > Bill Moseley > moseley at hank.org > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From moseley at hank.org Tue Sep 7 22:39:27 2010 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 20:39:27 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Francesco wrote: > I built an "auto-complete drop down" control for a client 2 years ago > that has been implemented on over 150 distinct sites, all querying the > same SQL database (or cached data sets, for performance enhancement). > It's basically a medical term search engine where users type in things > like "heart disease" "osteoporosis" "chest pain" and get an > autocomplete drop down that updates via Ajax on every character typed > after the first 2 characters, retrieving a fresh set of matching > keywords, along with a count(*) of results for that keyword. VERY > similar, and actually modeled after, Google Suggest. > So if you type two characters you get all keywords that start with those two characters? What if those two characters return thousands or matching keywords? Do you ajax fetch just a small number and allow users to scroll down to fetch another chunk? Google can rank it's terms so if you type two characters it can show you the top few terms that start with those letters. But, if there's no explicit ranking of the terms then I wonder how to pick what to show. -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From francesco at blackcoil.com Tue Sep 7 23:00:39 2010 From: francesco at blackcoil.com (Francesco) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:00:39 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In more detail... The autocomplete is a .NET user control with parameters. It's actually not a proper "select" object at all, but rather a textbox object with a div that appears below it as results are returned. Each site that uses it can pass in a parameter called "ResultCount" which is typically 10-20 so the div doesn't overpower things. Who really wants to scan more than 10-20 rows of data at a time anyway, right? And yes, the ranking is controlled by 3 DB tables: Articles, ArticleTags, and Tags. As you can guess, ArticleTags contains FKs to the Article and the Tag, as well as various indexed tinyint columns for ranking the importance/relevance of a tag to an article. This is where SQL index optimization comes in handy. So in a nutshell, a TOP X subset of the result set for a query is returned. -- Francesco Sanfilippo, Microsoft ASP Insider ASP.NET, MVC, SQL Server, HTML/CSS/JQuery mobile: 702.272.8912 | francesco at blackcoil.com http://www.google.com/profiles/blackcoil On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Bill Moseley wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Francesco wrote: > >> I built an "auto-complete drop down" control for a client 2 years ago >> that has been implemented on over 150 distinct sites, all querying the >> same SQL database (or cached data sets, for performance enhancement). >> It's basically a medical term search engine where users type in things >> like "heart disease" "osteoporosis" "chest pain" and get an >> autocomplete drop down that updates via Ajax on every character typed >> after the first 2 characters, retrieving a fresh set of matching >> keywords, along with a count(*) of results for that keyword. ?VERY >> similar, and actually modeled after, Google Suggest. >> > > So if you type two characters you get all keywords that start with those two > characters? ?What if those two characters return thousands or matching > keywords? ?Do you ajax fetch just a small number and allow users to scroll > down to fetch another chunk? > > Google can rank it's terms so if you type two characters it can show you the > top few terms that start with those letters. ? But, if there's no explicit > ranking of the terms then I wonder how to pick what to show. > > > > -- > Bill Moseley > moseley at hank.org > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com Wed Sep 8 04:07:33 2010 From: lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com (Lee Kowalkowski) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:07:33 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 08/09/2010, Bill Moseley wrote: > So if you type two characters you get all keywords that start with those two > characters? What if those two characters return thousands or matching > keywords? Do you ajax fetch just a small number and allow users to scroll > down to fetch another chunk? > > Google can rank it's terms so if you type two characters it can show you the > top few terms that start with those letters. But, if there's no explicit > ranking of the terms then I wonder how to pick what to show. I think the point is you need to implement a search rather than an exhaustive drop-down. Just think, what if Google used a drop down? It's impractical. From moseley at hank.org Wed Sep 8 08:37:40 2010 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 06:37:40 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Lee Kowalkowski < lee.kowalkowski at googlemail.com> wrote: > > I think the point is you need to implement a search rather than an > exhaustive drop-down. Just think, what if Google used a drop down? > It's impractical. > Exactly. But, what if someone is searching for "Lee" but they do not remember any addition letters in the name. The matches might exceed the size of the displayed list. In that case might be useful to add a link "More..." at the bottom of the list to go to a page that is designed to work with long lists, better. -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From Ron.Luther at hp.com Wed Sep 8 08:59:50 2010 From: Ron.Luther at hp.com (Luther, Ron) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:59:50 +0000 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C571521FE9E4348AA16498E72C483BB2C11FA93B5@GVW0671EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net> Bill Moseley asked: >>drop-down box to select from a list of items. The vast majority of current >>users have just a handful of items to select from -- most less than 100. >>Moving to testing we find out that a very small number of users have a huge >>number of items -- some have a 100,000+ items. Hi Bill, Great question! And one some 'Enterprise' systems out there ignore and get utterly wrong. (Ask anyone who has attended a training class where the instructor tells them to *NEVER PUSH THAT BUTTON* because it will lock up their system for hours trying to populate that accursed dropdown. [1]) Keyword approaches can work for single-selects -- but they really don't help much if the user needs to multi-select. Multi-selects are where the drop-down scale issue really becomes painful for ui. [Type "AN" to get to 'Angioplasty' quickly. Click to select that. Now what? Now you hold down the ctrl key for an hour and a half while you manually scroll down to also select 'X-Ray'. Ugly. Or scroll through an entire list of 100,000+ customer names trying to select all of the ones that _might_ be Air Force bases. Ewwww.] It looks like an architectural issue to me. One approach might be to design and create the hierarchical reference data you need to organize your 100,000+ items into the bite-sized pieces your users are interested in. Then perhaps a series of drop-downs of increasing granularity walking through your hierarchy. I've seen that work. Another architectural approach might be to fork the application; short-bus users get one set of controls, the 100,000+ club members get a different set. Either way sounds like work. Good Luck, RonL. [1] SAP and/or Oracle application search screens containing a 'show all' button next to the customer name field ... as a by no means exclusive example. From bobm at dottedi.biz Wed Sep 8 09:57:16 2010 From: bobm at dottedi.biz (Bob Meetin) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 08:57:16 -0600 Subject: [thelist] Big drop-down lists. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C87A44C.1010609@dottedi.biz> > > Exactly. But, what if someone is searching for "Lee" but they do not > remember any addition letters in the name. The matches might exceed the > size of the displayed list. In that case might be useful to add a link > "More..." at the bottom of the list to go to a page that is designed to work > with long lists, better. > Speaking of long lists, though - does internet explorer have any particular issues in processing long lists, either as lists or as tables? I have something I'm working on (from a db) that display almost immediately in Firefox but takes perhaps 30 seconds in the other guy. -- Bob From zachary.kent at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:10:58 2010 From: zachary.kent at gmail.com (Zachary Kent) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:10:58 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > (You should be able to get a feel in the first 10 minutes whether > these guys are going to pay your market rate or not. If not, move on. > Even in this economy, no one needs to be inviting headaches.) This is true, however, most developers suck at sales and turning away money (even bad money) can be difficult. Lately, I have turned away more jobs than I would like but saved myself many of said headaches. Also, I live in a small, rural state (Vermont, USA) and even if someone cannot afford me I want them to speak highly of me to others. From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 8 15:24:13 2010 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:24:13 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Zachary Kent wrote: > most developers suck at sales and turning away > money (even bad money) can be difficult. the solution is to get training from someone who is successfully doing this and is a good enough trainer to share that knowledge. I did it the wrong way for ages. struggled financially and hated work a lot. now, we do okay, and I spend most days in a delirium of happy. joel From nan at nanharbison.com Wed Sep 8 16:42:15 2010 From: nan at nanharbison.com (Nan Harbison) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:42:15 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b301cb4f9e$b55143a0$1ff3cae0$@com> My nice way of turning down clients who I am sure will be a PIA after that first 10 minutes is to give them a really high price for my work, and hope they look for a cheaper alternative. Or, the worst case scenario is not SO bad, at least I get paid a decent amount to deal with these headaches. It's amazing how soothing money can be. Nan -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Joel D Canfield Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:35 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Matt Warden wrote: > (You should be able to get a feel in the first 10 minutes whether > these guys are going to pay your market rate or not. If not, move on. > Even in this economy, no one needs to be inviting headaches.) great stuff, Matt, all the way through. there are days when I love this list. -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 8 19:15:51 2010 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 01:15:51 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8 Sep 2010, at 21:24, Joel D Canfield wrote: > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Zachary Kent wrote: > >> most developers suck at sales and turning away >> money (even bad money) can be difficult. > > > the solution is to get training from someone who is successfully doing this > and is a good enough trainer to share that knowledge. > > I did it the wrong way for ages. struggled financially and hated work a lot. > now, we do okay, and I spend most days in a delirium of happy. Very much agreeing with that - the biggest sales danger freelancers face is undervaluing themselves: going in low just because. When I was a freelancer, I was looking for work at under ?200/d, and taking 1/2d billable pieces of work that took me weeks of sales cycle because I didn't have the confidence to do anything more. These days (OK, I do work for a top tier employer), I'm turning round ?100k quarterly add-ons to an existing contract without really raising my heartrate. *All that said* - if you can truly establish that the client does in fact mean a quick, easy piece of work, and you can standardise the hell out of that kind of thing to keep your costs really low, then there's no reason why you can't make a decent revenue stream out of it. Again, while freelancing, I was doing just that for a while with form->email CGIs at ~?200 a time. Had it down to about an hour's work eventually, once the regular (ad agency) client was trained to provide the right inputs. It's your basic Boston Group matrix cash cow - low growth, but provides a nice steady base revenue that can be *really useful* to cover your fixed costs (and in our business, nearly all your costs are fixed costs) through the variability of sexy projects and their sales cycles. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From martin at easyweb.co.uk Wed Sep 8 19:25:21 2010 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 01:25:21 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443E8833-FD65-47CC-A06E-39ED9F3A88AB@easyweb.co.uk> On 8 Sep 2010, at 03:32, Matt Warden wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:51 AM, Alex Beston wrote: >> Hi list >> >> I thought I would throw up a thing for discussion. >> >> Should we answer email from people who want things that are "simple" and >> "just the basics". >> >> I think it ought to be put down as a red flag client moment and dismissed as >> such. > > I'm going to disagree with some of the responses you've received so > far. You're not in the business of educating potential customers on > the very business they are trying to get into (running a site in some > fashion). It leads to very long sales cycles, and your reward is > peanuts for pay and headaches along the way. Qualifying leads is very important - you only ever have a limited amount of opportunities you can pursue and fulfil. Don't waste time on the rest. That said, turning down non-qualifiers can be done well and in a way that doesn't burn the relationship. And sometimes, doing small things can be a useful training exercise for your junior staff - a lot of agencies do charity work for this: get the kids doing something small that they can get excited about having bigger roles that normal in but won't risk blowing a major contract. If you're *really* not going to pursue something that starts as a 'quick and simple' enquiry, the best way to qualify leads is to make it very clear in your outbound, non-personalised communications (web, print) what it is that you *do* do. Showcase the complex ones. Avoid the 'no job too small' type language. That way you get prospects to self-qualify. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From kmulvihill at ca.rr.com Wed Sep 8 21:13:59 2010 From: kmulvihill at ca.rr.com (Kevin Mulvihill) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:13:59 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: <00b301cb4f9e$b55143a0$1ff3cae0$@com> Message-ID: Right on, Nan. That's exactly what I do too. Everyone has a price. PIAs pay top dollar. Kevin On 9/8/10 2:42 PM, "Nan Harbison" wrote: > My nice way of turning down clients who I am sure will be a PIA after that > first 10 minutes is to give them a really high price for my work, and hope > they look for a cheaper alternative. Or, the worst case scenario is not SO > bad, at least I get paid a decent amount to deal with these headaches. It's > amazing how soothing money can be. > Nan > > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Joel D Canfield > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:35 PM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Matt Warden wrote: > >> (You should be able to get a feel in the first 10 minutes whether >> these guys are going to pay your market rate or not. If not, move on. >> Even in this economy, no one needs to be inviting headaches.) > > > great stuff, Matt, all the way through. > > there are days when I love this list. From joel at bizba6.com Wed Sep 8 23:24:35 2010 From: joel at bizba6.com (Joel D Canfield) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 21:24:35 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: <00b301cb4f9e$b55143a0$1ff3cae0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Kevin Mulvihill wrote: > Right on, Nan. That's exactly what I do too. Everyone has a price. PIAs pay > top dollar. In the long run, you'll regret that. If you work with jerks it will wear you down and affect your work for the people you like. Any decision you make based entirely on money is wrong. If you wouldn't work with someone *except* for the money involved, don't work with 'em. It isn't as if there's not enough work out there. The web is not even an infant; it's embryonic. Over the next 25 years you're going to see an explosion of web-related work that dwarfs the dot bomb era a decade ago. You don't have to work for jerks just for money. joel From kipper_timmins at live.co.uk Thu Sep 9 00:30:45 2010 From: kipper_timmins at live.co.uk (Kevin Timmins) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 06:30:45 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't read the full thread, but just on this note, I think one of the keys is being confident. Have the air of, you know what you are doing, you know its worth a lot. the customer should be convincing you why you should do work for them not the other way round. It will change the dynamic of the situation meaning that you have more control over getting a fair-trade price for your work. that's my two cents this early in the morning before work. don't be arrogant or cocky though, just confident! be realistic too. don't overcharge or you will just come across as a cowboy or an id**t. same if you undercharge. but people like a cheap id**t. it's a balance to achieve. try some mock interviews with very tough friends. also put yourself in a position to speak in public. this is a real confidence booster and will put you in a different stance and view about yourself. it's ok to turn a client down! kevin -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joel D Canfield" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:24 PM To: Subject: Re: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Zachary Kent > wrote: > >> most developers suck at sales and turning away >> money (even bad money) can be difficult. > > > the solution is to get training from someone who is successfully doing > this > and is a good enough trainer to share that knowledge. > > I did it the wrong way for ages. struggled financially and hated work a > lot. > now, we do okay, and I spend most days in a delirium of happy. > > joel > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From martin at easyweb.co.uk Thu Sep 9 14:38:54 2010 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:38:54 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: References: <00b301cb4f9e$b55143a0$1ff3cae0$@com> Message-ID: <47CB0BDE-EC4A-4273-B738-D64C408D2B7D@easyweb.co.uk> On 9 Sep 2010, at 05:24, Joel D Canfield wrote: > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Kevin Mulvihill wrote: > >> Right on, Nan. That's exactly what I do too. Everyone has a price. PIAs pay >> top dollar. > > > In the long run, you'll regret that. If you work with jerks it will wear you > down and affect your work for the people you like. Agree, but my 'bugger off' rate really was very, very high. It dissuaded *nearly* everyone, but the tiny minority who paid it paid for some nice holidays that made up for it. Mind you, thinking back, that 'bugger off' rate is less than I'm charged out at now. Closer to half, actually. And I get to work with mostly non-jerks. hmmm, maybe time to get back in the game ;-) Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From pms at stoutstreet.com Thu Sep 9 14:45:49 2010 From: pms at stoutstreet.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:45:49 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Customer requirements: simple? In-Reply-To: <47CB0BDE-EC4A-4273-B738-D64C408D2B7D@easyweb.co.uk> References: <00b301cb4f9e$b55143a0$1ff3cae0$@com> <47CB0BDE-EC4A-4273-B738-D64C408D2B7D@easyweb.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C89396D.1060503@stoutstreet.com> On 9/9/2010 3:38 pm, Martin Burns wrote: > On 9 Sep 2010, at 05:24, Joel D Canfield wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Kevin Mulvihill wrote: >> >>> Right on, Nan. That's exactly what I do too. Everyone has a price. PIAs pay >>> top dollar. >> >> In the long run, you'll regret that. If you work with jerks it will wear you >> down and affect your work for the people you like. > Agree, but my 'bugger off' rate really was very, very high. It dissuaded *nearly* everyone, but the tiny minority who paid it paid for some nice holidays that made up for it. > > Mind you, thinking back, that 'bugger off' rate is less than I'm charged out at now. Closer to half, actually. And I get to work with mostly non-jerks. > > hmmm, maybe time to get back in the game ;-) > > Cheers > Martin > > Another thing to consider may be that each developer/designer has a different tolerance level/definition of 'bugger off' clients. Sometimes passing a potentially difficult client on to another who is better suited/willing to handle them may be warranted. This doesn't mean necessarily sending them to a junior dev: just someone who may not find these types of clients that hard to deal with. Of course, this is easier said than done. -- patrick sanders http://www.stoutstreet.com web sites that fit From cdorer at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 10:41:19 2010 From: cdorer at gmail.com (Chris Dorer) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:41:19 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question Message-ID: Folks, I've googled, but I may not be searching the right way. I would like to understand what the assignment operator |= means. That's pipe-equals. I'm feeling it's 'or assign', am-i-right? And, why would one use it? Chris -- The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power -- William Shakespeare From Ed at ComSimplicity.com Fri Sep 10 10:42:12 2010 From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Ed McCarroll) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:42:12 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question Message-ID: <248d47da$52e4d5f$25cc346e$@com> It would help if we knew what language you're working with. ----------------------- Edward W. McCarroll Ed at ComSimplicity.com 310.904.3651 ---------------------------------------- From: "Chris Dorer" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:40 AM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question Folks, I've googled, but I may not be searching the right way. I would like to understand what the assignment operator |= means. That's pipe-equals. I'm feeling it's 'or assign', am-i-right? And, why would one use it? Chris -- The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power -- William Shakespeare -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! From cdorer at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 10:46:13 2010 From: cdorer at gmail.com (Chris Dorer) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:46:13 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: <248d47da$52e4d5f$25cc346e$@com> References: <248d47da$52e4d5f$25cc346e$@com> Message-ID: Ok, I didn't include the language, for I figured most languages(i'm not gonna say all) would be the same for assignment ops. I'm using PERL 5. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Ed McCarroll wrote: > It would help if we knew what language you're working with. > > ----------------------- Edward W. McCarroll Ed at ComSimplicity.com > 310.904.3651 > > > ---------------------------------------- > From: "Chris Dorer" > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:40 AM > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question > > Folks, > > I've googled, but I may not be searching the right way. > > I would like to understand what the assignment operator |= means. That's > pipe-equals. > > I'm feeling it's 'or assign', am-i-right? And, why would one use it? > > Chris > > -- > The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power -- William > Shakespeare > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > -- The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power -- William Shakespeare From Ed at ComSimplicity.com Fri Sep 10 11:00:40 2010 From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Ed McCarroll) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:00:40 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question Message-ID: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> > I figured most languages(i'm not gonna say all) would be the same for assignment ops. I've programmed in many languages, but not PERL, and: 1. Assignment ops do vary, depending upon language, more than you'd think. 2. I've never seen a "|=" operator. 3. I'm guessing "a |= b" might mean "a = a | b", like C's "+=" operator. Sorry. ----------------------- Edward W. McCarroll Ed at ComSimplicity.com 310.904.3651 From misterhaan at track7.org Fri Sep 10 11:03:34 2010 From: misterhaan at track7.org (misterhaan) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:03:34 -0500 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> References: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> Message-ID: <4C8A56D6.5070708@track7.org> a |= b does in fact mean the same as a = a | b. the single pipe is a bitwise or. On 9/10/2010 11:00 AM, Ed McCarroll wrote: >> I figured most languages(i'm not gonna say all) would be the same for > assignment ops. > > I've programmed in many languages, but not PERL, and: > > 1. Assignment ops do vary, depending upon language, more than you'd think. > 2. I've never seen a "|=" operator. > 3. I'm guessing "a |= b" might mean "a = a | b", like C's "+=" operator. > > Sorry. > > ----------------------- Edward W. McCarroll Ed at ComSimplicity.com > 310.904.3651 > > From jason.handby at corestar.co.uk Fri Sep 10 11:32:56 2010 From: jason.handby at corestar.co.uk (Jason Handby) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:32:56 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> References: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> Message-ID: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDCA@exch-be12.exchange.local> > > I figured most languages(i'm not gonna say all) would be the same for > assignment ops. > > I've programmed in many languages, but not PERL, and: > > 1. Assignment ops do vary, depending upon language, more than you'd > think. > 2. I've never seen a "|=" operator. > 3. I'm guessing "a |= b" might mean "a = a | b", like C's "+=" > operator. C, C++, C#, Java, Javascript and PHP all have the "|=" operator, and yes, that's what it means. I guess a use case would be if you were iterating through some bit patterns and combining them into a bitmask - you'd start with 0, and repeatedly bitwise-OR into it. Probably not the sort of thing web developers do a lot though! Jason From judah at wiredotter.com Fri Sep 10 12:27:39 2010 From: judah at wiredotter.com (Judah McAuley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:27:39 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDCA@exch-be12.exchange.local> References: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com> <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDCA@exch-be12.exchange.local> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I don't believe that Javascript actually has this operator (though Java does). Coldfusion (which I primarily work in) also does not have that operator. Interesting, I've not run across it before. Cheers, Judah On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Jason Handby wrote: >> > I figured most languages(i'm not gonna say all) would be the same > for >> assignment ops. >> >> I've programmed in many languages, but not PERL, and: >> >> 1. Assignment ops do vary, depending upon language, more than you'd >> think. >> 2. I've never seen a "|=" operator. >> 3. I'm guessing "a |= b" might mean "a = a | b", like C's "+=" >> operator. > > C, C++, C#, Java, Javascript and PHP all have the "|=" operator, and > yes, that's what it means. > > I guess a use case would be if you were iterating through some bit > patterns and combining them into a bitmask - you'd start with 0, and > repeatedly bitwise-OR into it. Probably not the sort of thing web > developers do a lot though! > > > Jason > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. ?* * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From brundlefly at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 13:13:56 2010 From: brundlefly at gmail.com (Shannon Hubbell) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:13:56 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Custom Quicktime Controls Message-ID: I'm working on a project that's targeting Mac/iPhone/iPad users, and it seems we're stuck using XHTML. We need to embed some videos, so we need to use Quicktime. The problem is that the client's branding people want us to use their custom player design. I've done that for Flash video before, but now it looks like we need to recreate it for quicktime. I know how out how to create the simple buttons (Play, Pause, Rwd) but I can't figure out how to create a custom scrub bar or volume slider. Any thoughts or links would be most appreciated! Thanks! From moseley at hank.org Fri Sep 10 23:39:11 2010 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:39:11 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Which http status code for error in load balancing decision? Message-ID: Somewhat of an odd situation. Migrating an application from an old code base to a new one. I have a load balancer in front that inspects the requests and decides if the request should go to a server with old code or with new code. For the most part it's simple URL inspection by the balancer. But, the new code is partly an AJAX application where the URL space isn't so separated -- i.e. it's not easy to determine based on the URL where the request needs to go. So, in this case the ajax requests include a header that tells the load balancer where to send the request. Yes, a bit convoluted. Anyway, if a request comes in with, say, and expired session the new code redirects to the old application where the login page is located. But, if this is an ajax request then the client will follow the redirect but include the header telling it to go to a server with the new code. The result is the request comes back to the wrong server which is a redirect loop. So, in that case I need to send a response other than a redirect. Bottom line is a request is sent to the wrong back end server. The question is what is the correct response code in this case? It's not really a 404 because the resource does exist at that URL -- it's just that the load balancer sent it to the wrong place. What status should be returned? Is it a 500? Or something in the 400 range? Will it be the same response for ajax requests (which I know from the request header) and non-ajax requests? -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From lists at frankmarion.com Sat Sep 11 14:42:14 2010 From: lists at frankmarion.com (Frank Marion) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:42:14 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? Message-ID: I'm a just-get-by networking guy. I can set up my networks and have the relatively secure, but I'm not a top-notch expert, so I need a bit of advice. When I bought a laptop, I messed around with my settings before I struck on a solution that worked. Originally, I had created a network between my wireless Mac and my ethernet PC called "HOME", both plugged into my wireless router, but finally got "HOME NETWORK" working. Now, sometime later, as I detect the local WIFI connections using Stumbler (a Mac solution) I see a network called "HOME", which in a predominantly French area, would be like seeing a connection called "Chez Nous" in the US, it's an anomaly. I'm concerned that somehow, despite my inability to find a reference to HOME on either of my machines or my router settings, that somehow I might have left a network open for anyone to use--specifically that weirdo downstairs who has a USB wire with a WIFI key dangling out of his front window. I'm *relatively* confident that my network is secure, but that HOME thing give me pause, and I'd like to shut down any potential trouble spots. Can someone recommend a means by which I can positively ascertain that I have or do not have such a network running? Some facts: * I DO have MAC filtering on, denying all MAC addresses but those that I specifically permit. * My router shows that only one wireless connection is CURRENTLY logged on, and it matches my MAC address. * I do use a WPA2 encryption scheme, with really bad-ass pass-phrases. * My NAT filtering is address restricted. * I have no DMZ * UPnP is off. * All WAN pings are off. * ShieldsUp (grc.com) shows that I'm totally stealthed on ports 0-1055, but that's not my WIFI connection,it's my router. * I can only access my router locally (no remote admin), and I have a solid pass-phrase. * To the best of my knowledge, no one has physical access to my machines. Is it possible to run more than one WIFI networks simultaneously? Can my Mac serve as a network point directly? Or is my router my only concern? Thanks for your thoughts, keep them in relatively simple English when using networking speak, please :) -- Frank Marion lists [_at_] frankmarion.com From simonmacdonald at uk2.net Sat Sep 11 16:02:40 2010 From: simonmacdonald at uk2.net (Simon MacDonald) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:02:40 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> Is your router wifi network called 'HOME'? Could your neighbour ( maybe unlikely if they are French have one called 'HOME'). Maybe rename yours MarionNet, or similar, and see what Stumbler, picks up - if you give your own 'net a unique name, you can probably be sure its yours - I hasten to add I'm no network guru either, but I know my own network :) Simon -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Frank Marion Sent: 11 September 2010 8:42 PM To: Evolt Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? I'm a just-get-by networking guy. I can set up my networks and have the relatively secure, but I'm not a top-notch expert, so I need a bit of advice. When I bought a laptop, I messed around with my settings before I struck on a solution that worked. Originally, I had created a network between my wireless Mac and my ethernet PC called "HOME", both plugged into my wireless router, but finally got "HOME NETWORK" working. Now, sometime later, as I detect the local WIFI connections using Stumbler (a Mac solution) I see a network called "HOME", which in a predominantly French area, would be like seeing a connection called "Chez Nous" in the US, it's an anomaly. I'm concerned that somehow, despite my inability to find a reference to HOME on either of my machines or my router settings, that somehow I might have left a network open for anyone to use--specifically that weirdo downstairs who has a USB wire with a WIFI key dangling out of his front window. I'm *relatively* confident that my network is secure, but that HOME thing give me pause, and I'd like to shut down any potential trouble spots. Can someone recommend a means by which I can positively ascertain that I have or do not have such a network running? Some facts: * I DO have MAC filtering on, denying all MAC addresses but those that I specifically permit. * My router shows that only one wireless connection is CURRENTLY logged on, and it matches my MAC address. * I do use a WPA2 encryption scheme, with really bad-ass pass-phrases. * My NAT filtering is address restricted. * I have no DMZ * UPnP is off. * All WAN pings are off. * ShieldsUp (grc.com) shows that I'm totally stealthed on ports 0-1055, but that's not my WIFI connection,it's my router. * I can only access my router locally (no remote admin), and I have a solid pass-phrase. * To the best of my knowledge, no one has physical access to my machines. Is it possible to run more than one WIFI networks simultaneously? Can my Mac serve as a network point directly? Or is my router my only concern? Thanks for your thoughts, keep them in relatively simple English when using networking speak, please :) -- Frank Marion lists [_at_] frankmarion.com -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5443 (20100911) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5443 (20100911) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From lists at frankmarion.com Sat Sep 11 16:19:02 2010 From: lists at frankmarion.com (Frank Marion) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:19:02 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> Message-ID: <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> On 2010-09-11, at 5:02 PM, Simon MacDonald wrote: > Is your router wifi network called 'HOME'? No, it's HOME NETWORK--in the router. > Could your neighbour ( maybe unlikely if they are French have one > called 'HOME'). Possible... that's where my question lies. > Maybe rename yours MarionNet, or similar, and see what Stumbler, > picks up - if you give your > own 'net a unique name, you can probably be sure its yours - I > hasten to add > I'm no network guru either, but I know my own network :) I'll give it a shot, but still, if I change it, I'd still like the assurance that I don't have an early-setup screw up still floating around. Thanks -- Frank Marion lists [_at_] frankmarion.com From reprogrammingart at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 16:51:50 2010 From: reprogrammingart at gmail.com (David Hammond) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:51:50 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: Frank, Try installing Nmap [1] and running it against your external IP address(es). Nmap will hammer an IP and report back what it learns as well as highlighting many types of vulnerabilities. Only use it for your own personal network however, as this tool can raise some serious "red flags" if you point it at a machine you don't own. Using Nmap I discovered that my ISP actually keeps a port open on my router for "maintenance" purposes. All attempts to block this port from within my router's firewall configuration are simply ignored! [1] http://nmap.org/ Cheers, Dave On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Frank Marion wrote: > On 2010-09-11, at 5:02 PM, Simon MacDonald wrote: > >> Is your router wifi network called 'HOME'? >> > > No, it's HOME NETWORK--in the router. > > Could your neighbour ( maybe unlikely if they are French have one called >> 'HOME'). >> > > Possible... that's where my question lies. > > Maybe rename yours MarionNet, or similar, and see what Stumbler, picks up >> - if you give your >> own 'net a unique name, you can probably be sure its yours - I hasten to >> add >> I'm no network guru either, but I know my own network :) >> > > > I'll give it a shot, but still, if I change it, I'd still like the > assurance that I don't have an early-setup screw up still floating around. > > Thanks > > -- > Frank Marion > lists [_at_] frankmarion.com > > > > > > > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! -- reprogrammingart at gmail.com From mpulis at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 16:55:31 2010 From: mpulis at gmail.com (Matthew Pulis) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:55:31 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: It could be the connection is cached or something similar. Does it appear on another computer? Also if you switch off the Mac book, does it still appear? Could be Mac cached it. Matthew Pulis BSc. (Business and Computing) MSc. (Informatics) web: www.matthewpulis.info mob: +44 7866535953 / +356 79539404 On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:51 PM, David Hammond wrote: > Frank, > > Try installing Nmap [1] and running it against your external IP > address(es). Nmap will hammer an IP and report back what it learns as well > as highlighting many types of vulnerabilities. Only use it for your own > personal network however, as this tool can raise some serious "red flags" > if > you point it at a machine you don't own. > > Using Nmap I discovered that my ISP actually keeps a port open on my router > for "maintenance" purposes. All attempts to block this port from within my > router's firewall configuration are simply ignored! > > [1] http://nmap.org/ > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Frank Marion > wrote: > > > On 2010-09-11, at 5:02 PM, Simon MacDonald wrote: > > > >> Is your router wifi network called 'HOME'? > >> > > > > No, it's HOME NETWORK--in the router. > > > > Could your neighbour ( maybe unlikely if they are French have one called > >> 'HOME'). > >> > > > > Possible... that's where my question lies. > > > > Maybe rename yours MarionNet, or similar, and see what Stumbler, picks > up > >> - if you give your > >> own 'net a unique name, you can probably be sure its yours - I hasten to > >> add > >> I'm no network guru either, but I know my own network :) > >> > > > > > > I'll give it a shot, but still, if I change it, I'd still like the > > assurance that I don't have an early-setup screw up still floating > around. > > > > Thanks > > > > -- > > Frank Marion > > lists [_at_] frankmarion.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > > > > -- > reprogrammingart at gmail.com > -- > > * * Please support the community that supports you. * * > http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester > and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org > Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From lists at frankmarion.com Sat Sep 11 17:12:32 2010 From: lists at frankmarion.com (Frank Marion) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:12:32 -0400 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: <8291ED2E-3FC4-4B67-B7FD-B806BFC3BD9B@frankmarion.com> On 2010-09-11, at 5:55 PM, Matthew Pulis wrote: > It could be the connection is cached or something similar. Does it > appear on > another computer? Also if you switch off the Mac book, does it still > appear? > > Could be Mac cached it. It appears on another computer that I have granted access to my router. I does appear after I reboot my Mac, PCs and router. It *is* possible it belongs to another. I just find that the same name, and the very same make of router as announced is odd. If I go to my airport icon on the top left of the Finder and choose "Join other networks" I see it. Both it and Stumbler report that it is secured though. But whether I secured it and abandon it when I was messing around or whether belongs to a neighbour, I can't tell. I'm leaning toward the latter, but short of knocking on everyone's door and asking snoopy questions, I can't tell. If I could identify the IP that it comes from, however, that would set the matter to rest, I think. -- Frank Marion lists [_at_] frankmarion.com From dean.mah at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 20:47:39 2010 From: dean.mah at gmail.com (Dean Mah) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:47:39 -0600 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: <8291ED2E-3FC4-4B67-B7FD-B806BFC3BD9B@frankmarion.com> References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> <8291ED2E-3FC4-4B67-B7FD-B806BFC3BD9B@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Frank Marion wrote: > On 2010-09-11, at 5:55 PM, Matthew Pulis wrote: >> >> It could be the connection is cached or something similar. Does it appear >> on >> another computer? Also if you switch off the Mac book, does it still >> appear? >> >> Could be Mac cached it. > > > It appears on another computer that I have granted access to my router. I > does appear after I reboot my Mac, PCs and router. Check the SSID setting in your router--that's what is being broadcast. Try setting your router to not broadcast your SSID and see if you can still scan the network. Try turning off your router and see if you can still scan the network. Try removing the space from your SSID and see if that makes a difference. I'm not that familiar with Mac's but I think that there is a way to create a computer to computer network, make sure that setting is disabled. Dean From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sun Sep 12 03:07:00 2010 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:07:00 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> <8291ED2E-3FC4-4B67-B7FD-B806BFC3BD9B@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: <82163908-AD7D-4A6B-BED7-679E33D37586@easyweb.co.uk> On 12 Sep 2010, at 02:47, Dean Mah wrote: > I'm not that familiar with Mac's but I think that there is a way to > create a computer to computer network, make sure that setting is > disabled. There is, but I don't believe you can have 2 WiFi connections simultaneously. It's there to 1) create a very simple peer-to-peer network if you don't have a router 2) bridge between wired & wireless networks Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sun Sep 12 03:08:55 2010 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:08:55 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Networking: WIFI: Is this MY connection? In-Reply-To: References: <006901cb51f4$acc17220$06445660$@net> <3664DA2D-B563-4B3A-AB1C-EDA84878908C@frankmarion.com> Message-ID: <89E7AC8E-755F-47A0-BB91-D990630E30BC@easyweb.co.uk> On 11 Sep 2010, at 22:51, David Hammond wrote: > Using Nmap I discovered that my ISP actually keeps a port open on my router > for "maintenance" purposes. All attempts to block this port from within my > router's firewall configuration are simply ignored! Yeah, I'd never rely on an ISP that *required* you to use their provided router. I'd be highly tempted to put a secondary firewall/router between that one and my actual network. Cheers Martin -- > Spammers: Send me email -> yumyum at easyweb.co.uk to train my filter > http://dspam.nuclearelephant.com/ From jason.handby at corestar.co.uk Sun Sep 12 05:42:06 2010 From: jason.handby at corestar.co.uk (Jason Handby) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:42:06 +0100 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: References: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com><9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDCA@exch-be12.exchange.local> Message-ID: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDD8@exch-be12.exchange.local> Hi Judah, > For what it's worth, I don't believe that Javascript actually has this > operator (though Java does). I checked my copy of "JavaScript: The Definitive Guide" 4th edition before I sent the email, just in case :-) It's also in the ECMA specification. And I just tried a little test of it that worked in IE8 and the latest Firefox. function doSomething() { var n = 0; n |= 2; n |= 8; n |= 64; alert("Result is " + n); } (It should pop up 74.) I can't imagine it's something that JavaScript programmers use a lot, though - and possibly for that reason there seem to be a few websites that don't mention the bitwise assignment operators, including (unfortunately) the wikipedia page on JavaScript syntax. But if you're implementing a C-like language, and you've already got the | operator, it's probably pretty easy to implement |= . All of those compound assignment operators work in the same way, so once you've written one it's probably easy to add the rest of them. Oh and I just discovered that ActionScript has it too, which makes sense I guess because of its roots in Javascript. > Coldfusion (which I primarily work in) > also does not have that operator. Interesting, I've not run across it > before. Ah now you've got me there. I have no idea what Coldfusion scripting even looks like, despite being on this list for a while. I guess I must have tuned it out! Jason From Ed at ComSimplicity.com Sun Sep 12 22:02:05 2010 From: Ed at ComSimplicity.com (Edward McCarroll) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:02:05 -0700 Subject: [thelist] Assignment Question In-Reply-To: <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDD8@exch-be12.exchange.local> References: <502a791f$7a0c90f9$43013cc7$@com><9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDCA@exch-be12.exchange.local> <9A50776858A21848A96469CDFCBCDEFF02E0CDD8@exch-be12.exchange.local> Message-ID: In order to improve the maintainability of my code, I tend to avoid using what I regard as the trickier capabilities of a language. This "|=" operator would, for me, fall into that category. The fact that you "can", doesn't necessarily mean that you "should". Regards, Ed "I would rather be inconsistent than wrong." (Mohandas Gandhi) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Edward McCarroll 310.904.3651 Ed at ComSimplicity.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -