[thelist] Frame Bashing (was: frameborder=0)
aardvark
roselli at earthlink.net
Wed Mar 7 14:24:59 CST 2001
> From: "Mark Hadley" <mail at mark-hadley.freeserve.co.uk>
[...]
> I have come to the same conclusion on this issue, and find it
> extremely annoying that there seems to be no way to get a frameset
> without borders to validate in either HTML4 or XHTML. I think i will
> complain!!
to echo a point made elsewhere, frames are something many
people want to see go away with the advent of support for CSS-P...
XHTML does have a frameset DTD, however, at
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#dtds ...
in HTML 4.01 there are attributes to disable frame borders at
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html...
you'll note the syntax:
frameborder = 1|0 [CN]
This attribute provides the user agent with information about the
frame border. Possible values:
1: This value tells the user agent to draw a separator between this
frame and every adjoining frame. This is the default value.
0: This value tells the user agent not to draw a separator between
this frame and every adjoining frame. Note that separators may be
drawn next to this frame nonetheless if specified by other frames.
now, this means that there is, in fact, a standards-compliant
method to do it... however, whether or not the browsers choose to
support it is a different animal... and without reading the entire
thread, i don't know if you used the 0/1 approach...
> On the subject of frames, it seems to me as if designers/coders like
> to dis frames alot. Personally, I disagree. I think that framesets
on the contrary, i see many designers, especially print designers,
who love them, and many coders who dislike them...
> when well executed can add significantly to the layout and navigation
> of a site. I also think that they can *improve* accessibility options
> by providing dedicated <no frames> options for noframes text/speech
i've seen some cool things done with <blink>... twice... but that
wasn't enough to make me think it should be kept around...
anything can be made cool and functional once or twice, but when
it isn't most of the time, it's not much good...
as for accessibility, CSS can improve accessibility as well, but
does that mean by using it my site will be more accessible? most
people just don't create noframes options, nor do the WYSIWYGs
(look at the FP noframes message, or the new PS6 image gallery
noframes message)... and since i focus on a one-for-all approach
(where one design addresses the latest browsers, and degrades to
the oldest), that would be counter productive for me to implement...
> browsers. And i an sick and tired of non-framed sites where the
> navigation disappears off into the sky somewhere all the time. Is it
now i don't really mind that too much... i know it's a click or scroll
away, and i *like* regaining real estate from so many sites with
300px tall button banners designed for the boss's 1024x768
setup... no, i'd rather have my space and have to kick back up to
the top (it's less clicks to go up to the top of a long page than to
click along the scroll bars or press the arrow key)...
> true that W3C are considering depreciating frames? Why don't you like
> them?? Discuss!!
even if they deprecate them, support will still remain...
btw:
Some Caveats with Using Frames
http://evolt.org/article/evolt/22/293/index.html
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