[thelist] Frame Bashing (was: frameborder=0)

aardvark roselli at earthlink.net
Wed Mar 7 14:24:59 CST 2001

> From: "Mark Hadley" <mail at mark-hadley.freeserve.co.uk>
> I have come to the same conclusion on this issue, and find it
> extremely annoying that there seems to be no way to get a frameset
> without borders to validate in either HTML4 or XHTML. I think i will
> complain!!

to echo a point made elsewhere, frames are something many 
people want to see go away with the advent of support for CSS-P...

XHTML does have a frameset DTD, however, at 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#dtds ...

in HTML 4.01 there are attributes to disable frame borders at 

you'll note the syntax:

frameborder = 1|0 [CN]

This attribute provides the user agent with information about the 
frame border. Possible values:

1: This value tells the user agent to draw a separator between this 
frame and every adjoining frame. This is the default value.

0: This value tells the user agent not to draw a separator between 
this frame and every adjoining frame. Note that separators may be 
drawn next to this frame nonetheless if specified by other frames.

now, this means that there is, in fact, a standards-compliant 
method to do it... however, whether or not the browsers choose to 
support it is a different animal...  and without reading the entire 
thread, i don't know if you used the 0/1 approach...

> On the subject of frames, it seems to me as if designers/coders like
> to dis frames alot. Personally, I disagree. I think that framesets

on the contrary, i see many designers, especially print designers, 
who love them, and many coders who dislike them...

> when well executed can add significantly to the layout and navigation
> of a site. I also think that they can *improve* accessibility options
> by providing dedicated <no frames> options for noframes text/speech

i've seen some cool things done with <blink>... twice... but that 
wasn't enough to make me think it should be kept around... 
anything can be made cool and functional once or twice, but when 
it isn't most of the time, it's not much good...

as for accessibility, CSS can improve accessibility as well, but 
does that mean by using it my site will be more accessible?  most 
people just don't create noframes options, nor do the WYSIWYGs 
(look at the FP noframes message, or the new PS6 image gallery 
noframes message)... and since i focus on a one-for-all approach 
(where one design addresses the latest browsers, and degrades to 
the oldest), that would be counter productive for me to implement...

> browsers. And i an sick and tired of non-framed sites where the
> navigation disappears off into the sky somewhere all the time. Is it

now i don't really mind that too much... i know it's a click or scroll 
away, and i *like* regaining real estate from so many sites with 
300px tall button banners designed for the boss's 1024x768 
setup... no, i'd rather have my space and have to kick back up to 
the top (it's less clicks to go up to the top of a long page than to 
click along the scroll bars or press the arrow key)...

> true that W3C are considering depreciating frames? Why don't you like
> them?? Discuss!!

even if they deprecate them, support will still remain...

Some Caveats with Using Frames

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