[thelist] How excusable is the use of frames?

[aardvark]

> From: "Peter-Paul Koch" <gassinaumasis at hotmail.com>
[...] 
> I'm not so sure a frames site costs more than a noframes one (we don't
> charge more for it). As to the benefits, you might be right.

it's a cost-benefits analysis... it's proven to be cheaper to maintain 
SSIs with navigation than a multitude of frames, for example, on 
every site i've ever touched... it also includes user responses (can 
users bookmark your product page? no? then they are less likely 
to come back for it)...

> More generally: to keep certain concent in a static position on the
> screen while other content can be scrolled or reloaded. To me this is
> the prime benefit of frames.

and that's why you'll see many web apps use it effectively... but if 
it's just keeping marketing stuff in place (logos, banner ads), it 
doesn't help the user, it often adds confusion...

> Another one, to my mind, is that frames give the user a better feeling
> of continuity. Clicking a link reloads the content frame, but the rest
> of the frames still show the same as before, so that the user is very
> certain he isn't going to another site.

that's not a benefit of frames... that's only a benefit for a poorly 
designed site... in fact, if the site gets indexed by an SE, it's quite 
likely a user coming from an SE will get a frame page, which often 
has no branding or nav... no, frames aren't the answer there, proper 
branding is...

> I don't want every single site to use frames, but I would like people
> to pay attention to the benefits of frames, too. In the end it's your
> own decision whether to use them or not, and if someone decides to use
> them, I'd like other people to assume there might be a good reason for
> it.

there are many times when frames are appropriate, but i've 
generally found that restricted to artsier sites, internal sites, and 
web applications...

> It's just that the "frames are no good" call seems to have become a
> dogma, and I don't like dogma's.

did you read that URL i posted last night?  it addresses a lot of 
these points, none of which has been disproved...

Some Caveats with Using Frames
http://evolt.org/article/list/22/293/index.html