From jeff at alphashop.net  Mon Nov  5 01:41:21 2001
From: jeff at alphashop.net (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon Nov  5 01:41:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] another freebie
Message-ID: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHCENNELAA.jeff@alphashop.net>

here's another freebie tip.

<tip type="charsets">

need to know what the html and/or numeric character entity is for a given
character in one of microsoft's browsers?  take a look here:

iso latin-1
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/charsets/charset1.
asp

additional named entities
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/charsets/charset2.
asp

need to know what character sets a particular version of internet explorer
supports?  how about the correct label for a particular character set?

character set recognition
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/charsets/charset4.
asp

</tip>

enjoy,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mcglynn at flash.net  Mon Nov  5 06:12:13 2001
From: mcglynn at flash.net (Michael McGlynn)
Date: Mon Nov  5 06:12:13 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
Message-ID: <004e01c165f3$2bb49dc0$0b8bc540@aptiva>

Good Morning All,
First I would like to say how much I enjoy the List.

Just a quick site check for HTML issues, loading and link integrity.

This was a fast redesign of a static site. The original can be seen at the
top level of the domain.

http://www.microcomplete.com/stage/

TIA,

Mike

<tip type="Image Tags">
Instead of setting border=0 on every image which is a hyperlink, just use
this line of CSS:

A IMG {border: none;}
</tip>




From seb at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov  5 07:54:20 2001
From: seb at members.evolt.org (Seb)
Date: Mon Nov  5 07:54:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS Help
In-Reply-To: <F52xbkK0rGmjpFrY7W00000537e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011105121343.00afb930@members.evolt.org>

At 22:37 02/11/2001, you wrote:
>Hello folks :
>
>Got a CSS problem that's causing me grief.
>
>Navigate to : members.evolt.org/burhankhalid
>
>Now click on Current Projects
>
>(IE 5.x)
>
>The project's page displays great, except when you click on the 
>next/previous/start links on the bottom, then the page gets all skewed up.
>
>In NN6.2 -- it doesn't even show correctly.
>
>Any ideas? Also, I tried to get my site to center on both browsers. Let me 
>know if its doesn't look right.
>
>Thanks.

Burhan,

Your HTML has got escaped double quotes in it. You need to get rid of these 
or the page will not render properly:

[view source:]

<div id=\"frame\" style=\"\">
         <div id=\"toptab\"><div class=\"tabtext\"><a 
href=\"index.php\">Home</a>&nbsp;<a href=\"bground.php\">Who Am 
I?</a>&nbsp;<a href=\"projects.php\">Current Projects</a>&nbsp;<a 
href=\"#\">Cliques</a>&nbsp;<a href=\"#\">References</a></div></div>
         <div id=\"center\">
                 <div id=\"header\"><center><img style=\"\" 
align=\"absmiddle\" border=\"0\" src=\"title4.gif\" 
alt=\"Title\"/></center></div>

[/view source]

I downloaded the page locally, removed the slashes, and it works fine.

Seb.




From mg at markgroen.com  Mon Nov  5 08:03:19 2001
From: mg at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Mon Nov  5 08:03:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
References: <004e01c165f3$2bb49dc0$0b8bc540@aptiva>
Message-ID: <000801c16602$8b0f7ba0$6501a8c0@cr10746a>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael McGlynn" <mcglynn at flash.net>
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please

> Just a quick site check for HTML issues, loading and link integrity.
> This was a fast redesign of a static site. The original can be seen at
the
> top level of the domain.
> http://www.microcomplete.com/stage/
> TIA,
>
> Mike
>
Nice site, loads fast on my cable connection. Too many keywords in your
meta tags, usually around 26 each or somewhere around 255 characters is
max I think. Glad you dropped that extremely long alt tag on the photos
from the original (hides everything), but the photos still need an alt
tag even if not that long. It was somewhat disconcerting to have the
main page centered and the rest aligned left. Mostly a thumbs up IMHO.


MG Web Services
Web Site Hosting and Development
www.markgroen.com
mg at markgroen.com
604-780-6917
Vancouver, Canada




From mail at richardinfo.com  Mon Nov  5 08:07:43 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Mon Nov  5 08:07:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] online customer management system
Message-ID: <027b01c16602$99cc8610$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
Does anyone know of a  good online customer management system, using Perl or
PHP (on Linux).
something where the customer can logon, see the progress that's been made to
their files (or not :o) and see what hours have been billed to them, which
payments have been received etc.
Maybe an integrated message/bugreport  space (private forum) etc.

Thanks,
Richard




From adrian at digitaltraffic.co.uk  Mon Nov  5 08:15:34 2001
From: adrian at digitaltraffic.co.uk (Adrian Walker)
Date: Mon Nov  5 08:15:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] pricing for reused elements
In-Reply-To: <20011105140809.CD22851F33@relay.evolt.org>
References: <20011105140809.CD22851F33@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <+IXGmJA57p57Ewr+@ntlworld.com>

>
>: Now a situation comes about where I can reuse this widget for Client B.
>: I've already done the development time, so it only takes 1 hour to set up.
>:
>: What should I bill Client B? 11 hours' work - value of developing &
>: deploying the widget? 1 hour's work - deployment time only? Or somewhere
>in
>: between?

I hear what you all say, but you must be sure that you own the rights to
re-use it.  If a client has paid for a solution sometime he will own it
and not you.  If you re-use it then he has the right to bill you.

What do your T&Cs say.  Don't assume that you own the IPR



Adrian
-- 
Adrian Walker
adrian at digitaltraffic.co.uk



From pkaulbak at idirect.ca  Mon Nov  5 08:28:45 2001
From: pkaulbak at idirect.ca (Peter Kaulback)
Date: Mon Nov  5 08:28:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Configuring Apache virtual host path to own
  cgi-bin 
In-Reply-To: <000301c1658f$884904e0$90072cc3@athlon800>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011105092452.029952c8@mail.idirect.ca>

At 09:58 PM 11/4/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> > How do I set this up?
>
>Never mind, I've cracked it... the answer was
>
>    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "f:/www/testsite3/cgi-bin/"

Thanks for informing us George, your answer helped me with my scriptalias 
problem.

Peter Kaulback




From jon at kickinsites.com  Mon Nov  5 09:09:02 2001
From: jon at kickinsites.com (Jon)
Date: Mon Nov  5 09:09:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
In-Reply-To: <004e01c165f3$2bb49dc0$0b8bc540@aptiva>
Message-ID: <B80C1617.4225%jon@kickinsites.com>

Hi Mike,

Overall I think it looks good. The navigation on the new site is more
intuitive than the original. A few comments...

On the Who We Are and Contact Us pages the Contact Us text link at the
bottom of the page is broken.

On the services page the gif image doesn't look that great. But I noticed
that the one on the original page looked pretty bad, too.

On the Contact Us page the background image repeats horizontally on larger
window widths.

HTH
Jon


> From: "Michael McGlynn" <mcglynn at flash.net>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:12:41 -0500
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
> 
> Good Morning All,
> First I would like to say how much I enjoy the List.
> 
> Just a quick site check for HTML issues, loading and link integrity.
> 
> This was a fast redesign of a static site. The original can be seen at the
> top level of the domain.
> 
> http://www.microcomplete.com/stage/
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Mike
> 
> <tip type="Image Tags">
> Instead of setting border=0 on every image which is a hyperlink, just use
> this line of CSS:
> 
> A IMG {border: none;}
> </tip>
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 




From jonhall at ozline.net  Mon Nov  5 09:26:43 2001
From: jonhall at ozline.net (Jon Hall)
Date: Mon Nov  5 09:26:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
Message-ID: <018e01c1660e$c5beddc0$a41f88d8@ns2>

My first tip. Hope I get this right....I feel sorta like Brittney Spears.
;-)

For the last week or so my left eyelid had started doing this weird spastic
twitching thing. It didn't really bug me at first, but after a while it got
quite old. Last night I mentioned it to my health nut girlfriend and she did
a little research and found the most common cause is starting at a computer
monitor too long. The second she told me I went and looked at my monitor
refresh rate, and somehow it had gotten set back to 60 Hz. I switched it
back to 75 Hz and voila. The twitching went away immediately, and hasn't
returned.

<tip type="ergonomics">
If you spend a lot of time in front of a computer screen, especially with
fluorescent lights overhead and have never changed the default Windows
monitor refresh rate, your eyes are working way to hard. You may notice
headaches, or in my case, an eyeball twitching uncontrollably. While 60 Hz
is the Windows default. The best setting for your eyes (and eyelids) is
75hz.

To change your refresh rate:
Right Click on your desktop. Click Properties.
Select the Settings tab.
Click the Advanced button.
Select the Monitor tab.
Select 75 Hz from the dropdown and click Apply.

If you are reading this, do it now! Even if you have done this in the past,
check it. Windows will reset to 60Hz for quite a few reasons. Your eyelids
will thank you.
</tip>

jon




From hassan at webtuitive.com  Mon Nov  5 09:32:18 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Mon Nov  5 09:32:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
References: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFEENLDIAA.emagin@onebox.com> <3BE2F005.142427B4@mantruc.com>
Message-ID: <3BE6B154.F2FFC6AE@webtuitive.com>

"javier velasco (mantruc)" wrote:

> yes, it would be nice to exchange our methids, since the craft is so young
> 
> this is one of the weakest areas of the IA discipline: notation standards
> i'v seen verious efforts to compare things in this area, but all have failed
> for reasons i don't know

Sounds interesting - can you provide URLs to these efforts? Or if
this is getting too OT contact me off-list with some background? 

TIA!
-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From amccoy at goodmanct.com  Mon Nov  5 09:49:05 2001
From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan)
Date: Mon Nov  5 09:49:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3360A8EA0@admin.admin.goodmanct.com>

WOW! I just reset my refresh rate to 75 Hz. It was like dumping an
entire bottle of Visine into my exhausted eyes! Thank you, Jon Hall,
thank you so much! :-)

Alan

<tip type="stress management">
Whenever you hit a mental brick wall, take a moment, pull out a mat and
do some simple yoga stretches. Does wonders for both sides of the brain.
</tip>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Hall [mailto:jonhall at ozline.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:30 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
> 
> 
> My first tip. Hope I get this right....I feel sorta like 
> Brittney Spears.
> ;-)
> 
> For the last week or so my left eyelid had started doing this 
> weird spastic
> twitching thing. It didn't really bug me at first, but after 
> a while it got
> quite old. Last night I mentioned it to my health nut 
> girlfriend and she did
> a little research and found the most common cause is starting 
> at a computer
> monitor too long. The second she told me I went and looked at 
> my monitor
> refresh rate, and somehow it had gotten set back to 60 Hz. I 
> switched it
> back to 75 Hz and voila. The twitching went away immediately, 
> and hasn't
> returned.
> 
> <tip type="ergonomics">
> If you spend a lot of time in front of a computer screen, 
> especially with
> fluorescent lights overhead and have never changed the default Windows
> monitor refresh rate, your eyes are working way to hard. You 
> may notice
> headaches, or in my case, an eyeball twitching 
> uncontrollably. While 60 Hz
> is the Windows default. The best setting for your eyes (and 
> eyelids) is
> 75hz.
> 
> To change your refresh rate:
> Right Click on your desktop. Click Properties.
> Select the Settings tab.
> Click the Advanced button.
> Select the Monitor tab.
> Select 75 Hz from the dropdown and click Apply.
> 
> If you are reading this, do it now! Even if you have done 
> this in the past,
> check it. Windows will reset to 60Hz for quite a few reasons. 
> Your eyelids
> will thank you.
> </tip>
> 
> jon
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From adam at hallinteractive.com  Mon Nov  5 10:02:01 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:02:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] Possible to validate HTML with Flash?  (is: NOEMBED)
In-Reply-To: <v02140b1fb808e0ac069d@[10.112.254.244]>
Message-ID: <B80C227F.4EC9%adam@hallinteractive.com>

Hey John
I appreciate the response!
I'm concerned though about forcing people to go out of their way from
viewing the site to downloading software. perhaps I think maybe a sniffer
and redirect using not a secondary doc but maybe just an ssi. whadda you
think about that?
check out http://www.flashkit.com
check the source code, something like that seems to work. I tested flashkit
in netscape with no flash plugin and the redirect sent a gif in place of the
embedded flash. that seems much better for my current design practice of
having bits of flash contained within html.
any insight would be awesome. thx.

Ad.





From evolt at georgedillon.com  Mon Nov  5 10:04:50 2001
From: evolt at georgedillon.com (George Dillon  <> Evolt!)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:04:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache + ActivePerl CGI not working locally (CGI newbie configuration problem)
References: <20011103123230.CF4BE8EE@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <000301c16613$cd2ee960$8cd32cc3@athlon800>

I'm stumped again!

I'm trying to mimic my site's host environment locally so I can test CGIs
and then upload them to the server (ideally without having to remember to
alter any paths in the scripts before doing so).

I've managed to get my web pages accessing the virtual host cgi-bin for
simple "Hello World" type stuff, but when I try to call modules or create/
read/write to files it all fails badly - the browser never finishes loading
the page which calls the cgi and worse - Perl keeps running and prevents
the system (Win98) shutting down properly.

Details of the problematic code below the tip...

Any help would be much appreciated.

TIA

George

<tip type="Freeware site ripper">

In response to a recent thread asking about a site downloading tool I
recommended the freeware Webreaper ( http://www.webreaper.net/ ) which comes
with a powerful set of customisation features, including the ability to
completely customise the user-agent string.  Following djc's article on
Using Apache to stop bad robots (
http://evolt.org/article/rating/18/15126/index.html ) I was able to test my
bad bot blocking by cutting and pasting a known (and now blacklisted) bad
bot UA$ to webreaper and letting it try (and fail) to access my site.
A new version (9.6) has just been released and is just 957kb and $0.

</tip>


APACHE & CGI PROBLEM DETAILS:

I have Apache (1.3) in E:/Program Files/Apache Group/Apache/
Perl (ActivePerl 5,6,0,623) is in E:/Perl/
and my local test site is in F:/WWW/georgedillon.test/

In my httpd.conf I currently have this:

<START code type="from my httpd.conf file">

  ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "E:/Program Files/Apache Group/Apache/cgi-bin/"
  <Directory "E:/Program Files/Apache Group/Apache/cgi-bin">
     AllowOverride Options
     Options None
     Order allow,deny
     Allow from all
  </Directory>

  NameVirtualHost 127.0.0.3
  <VirtualHost 127.0.0.3>
  DocumentRoot "f:/WWW/georgedillon.test"
  ServerName localtest
  ErrorLog "f:/WWW/georgedillon.test/logs/error.log"
  ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "f:/WWW/georgedillon.test/cgi-bin/"
  </VirtualHost>

</END Code>

I can get simple print "Hello World" to work from the site's cgi-bin, but
however I tweak it I can't get the following script (which logs hits on a
monthly basis and works fine on the host server) to work locally:

<START Code type="my cgi script">

#!/usr/bin/perl
$date_command="/bin/date";

#Determine which log file to use
$logdate= `date +"%Y%m.log"`;
chop ($logdate);
$log_file = "/home/myusername/public_html/mylogs/hits$logdate";

#Get date and format for the log
$getdate = `date +"%d/%b/%Y:%T"`;
chop ($getdate);

#Use domain name if available or IP if not
$domain = $ENV{'REMOTE_ADDR'};
chop ($domain);
if ($ENV{'REMOTE_HOST'} ne "")
 {
 $domain = $ENV{'REMOTE_HOST'};
 };

#Create entry to be written to the log file
$LOGTHIS=<<LOGEND;
$domain - - [$getdate] "$ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} $ENV{'DOCUMENT_URI'}
$ENV{'SERVER_PROTOCOL'}" "$ENV{'HTTP_REFERER'}" "$ENV{'HTTP_USER_AGENT'}"
LOGEND

#Write entry to the log file
open (LOG, ">>$log_file") or open (LOG, ">$log_file");
flock LOG, 2;
print LOG "$LOGTHIS";
close (LOG);

exit;

</END code>








From alastair at cubeit.co.uk  Mon Nov  5 10:07:02 2001
From: alastair at cubeit.co.uk (Alastair Murdoch)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:07:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <018e01c1660e$c5beddc0$a41f88d8@ns2>
Message-ID: <GEEKJBLDIEOIJDCEAAPJKEADCMAA.alastair@cubeit.co.uk>

>>While 60 Hz is the Windows default.
>>The best setting for your eyes (and eyelids) is 75hz.

if your monitor will cope, try 85hz.  personally, 75hz drives me insane, I
can 'see' the screen refreshing, very distracting.

 -------------------------------
A l a s t a i r   M u r d o c h
c o n s u l t a n t  @  c u b e

    [t:]  01292 27 00 99
    [m:]  07974 323 551
    [w:] www.cubeit.co.uk






From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov  5 10:21:06 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:21:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] ASP Date? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0111051021000.24672-100000@leo.evolt.org>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:24:37 -0000
From: Olly Hodgson <gnarly at punkass.com>
To: thelist at evolt.org
Subject: ASP Date?

Hi there,

In ASP, how do I insert the current date into a variable?

Cheers,

Olly.





From sgd at ti3.com  Mon Nov  5 10:22:23 2001
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:22:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] ASP Date? (fwd)
Message-ID: <AE9BEBC586A48B4BA47843C4148B82511D0151@apollo.ti3.com>

> 
> In ASP, how do I insert the current date into a variable?
> 


<%
' without the current time
myDate = Date

' with the current time
myDateTime = Now

%>


sgd



From secarica at fx.ro  Mon Nov  5 10:23:09 2001
From: secarica at fx.ro (Cristian Secara)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:23:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
Message-ID: <200111042337.fA4Nb7l15219@fx.ro>

As far as I know, IE6 does not include Java runtime. For a Java applet
to work, a separate plug-in should be installed.
However, I installed IE6 over IE5.5 SP2 on a test Win2000 partition
and Java applets are still working.

Is my knowledge wrong, the above statement apply to IE6 under WinXP
only, or ... ?

Thank you.
Best wishes,
    Cristi






From rklegman at mediaone.net  Mon Nov  5 10:25:56 2001
From: rklegman at mediaone.net (Ron Klegman)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:25:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
In-Reply-To: <200111042337.fA4Nb7l15219@fx.ro>
Message-ID: <NDBBKDHNAKILPHDKFHBKAEBAGKAA.rklegman@mediaone.net>

I installed IE6 over IE5.5 (Had to do DEFAULT installation for everything to
work fine) and Java is working fine as well.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Cristian Secara
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:40 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
>
>
> As far as I know, IE6 does not include Java runtime. For a Java applet
> to work, a separate plug-in should be installed.
> However, I installed IE6 over IE5.5 SP2 on a test Win2000 partition
> and Java applets are still working.
>
> Is my knowledge wrong, the above statement apply to IE6 under WinXP
> only, or ... ?
>
> Thank you.
> Best wishes,
>     Cristi




From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Mon Nov  5 10:29:32 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:29:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] ASP Date? (fwd)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011105103254.00aab730@pop.gvtc.com>

 >In ASP, how do I insert the current date into a variable?


<%
Dim DateToday
DateToday = Date
%>

Jay Blanchard
Web Dev Mgr
TMC
1.512.396.5801 x327




From gnarly at punkass.com  Mon Nov  5 10:29:55 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:29:55 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
References: <NDBBKDHNAKILPHDKFHBKAEBAGKAA.rklegman@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <012f01c16617$def56670$0100a8c0@Comp2>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Klegman" <rklegman at mediaone.net>
Sbject: RE: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?


> I installed IE6 over IE5.5 (Had to do DEFAULT installation for everything
to
> work fine) and Java is working fine as well.

What they mean is that the Java VM isnt supplied by default - the user can
download it if they want it.

In your case it is already installed under IE 5.5.

Olly.





From scott at milcap.com  Mon Nov  5 10:31:18 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:31:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E3A@grety.milcap.com>

IE6 does not include a java vm, when required IE 6 will ask you to download and install the java vm if auto downloading is on, the java vm is the same one that has shipped with ie since version 4.

So users upgrading to IE 6 will probably have a java vm, but users with xp wont have  because the vm is not included in xp or ie6

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Klegman [mailto:rklegman at mediaone.net] 
Sent: 05 November 2001 17:26
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?


I installed IE6 over IE5.5 (Had to do DEFAULT installation for everything to work fine) and Java is working fine as well.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Cristian Secara
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:40 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
>
>
> As far as I know, IE6 does not include Java runtime. For a Java applet 
> to work, a separate plug-in should be installed. However, I installed 
> IE6 over IE5.5 SP2 on a test Win2000 partition and Java applets are 
> still working.
>
> Is my knowledge wrong, the above statement apply to IE6 under WinXP 
> only, or ... ?
>
> Thank you.
> Best wishes,
>     Cristi


---------------------------------------
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From joshua at alphashop.net  Mon Nov  5 10:33:57 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:33:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
References: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3360A8EA0@admin.admin.goodmanct.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c16619$175b75d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

Please, people, make sure your monitor can support 75Hz at whatever
resolution you are currently using before you try this.  Thnx

-joshua





From scott at milcap.com  Mon Nov  5 10:34:59 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:34:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E3B@grety.milcap.com>

Don?t quote me on "since version 4" because I honestly can say that I have seen any difference/speed increase/stability* improvements

*delete as applicable

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Adamson 
Sent: 05 November 2001 17:33
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?


IE6 does not include a java vm, when required IE 6 will ask you to download and install the java vm if auto downloading is on, the java vm is the same one that has shipped with ie since version 4.

So users upgrading to IE 6 will probably have a java vm, but users with xp wont have  because the vm is not included in xp or ie6

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Klegman [mailto:rklegman at mediaone.net] 
Sent: 05 November 2001 17:26
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?


I installed IE6 over IE5.5 (Had to do DEFAULT installation for everything to work fine) and Java is working fine as well.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Cristian Secara
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 6:40 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
>
>
> As far as I know, IE6 does not include Java runtime. For a Java applet
> to work, a separate plug-in should be installed. However, I installed 
> IE6 over IE5.5 SP2 on a test Win2000 partition and Java applets are 
> still working.
>
> Is my knowledge wrong, the above statement apply to IE6 under WinXP
> only, or ... ?
>
> Thank you.
> Best wishes,
>     Cristi


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---------------------------------------
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From n.beresford at anansi.co.uk  Mon Nov  5 10:35:27 2001
From: n.beresford at anansi.co.uk (Norman Beresford)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:35:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <000b01c16619$175b75d0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>
Message-ID: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAECEMMCDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>

Or even better, see if your monitor will support a high refresh rate and run
it at that.  The faster the better (/me is running at 100hz).

Norman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Joshua Olson
> Sent: 05 November 2001 16:44
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
>
>
> Please, people, make sure your monitor can support 75Hz at whatever
> resolution you are currently using before you try this.  Thnx
>
> -joshua
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From rklegman at mediaone.net  Mon Nov  5 10:36:22 2001
From: rklegman at mediaone.net (Ron Klegman)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:36:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
In-Reply-To: <012f01c16617$def56670$0100a8c0@Comp2>
Message-ID: <NDBBKDHNAKILPHDKFHBKOEBCGKAA.rklegman@mediaone.net>

Ah.. ok.. thanks for the clarification. A friend at work tried to install it
before.. he said Java was all messed up.. I guess he wasn't running it
tobegin with.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Olly Hodgson
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:35 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
>
> What they mean is that the Java VM isnt supplied by default - the user can
> download it if they want it.
>
> In your case it is already installed under IE 5.5.
>
> Olly.




From MPlunkett at MSA.com  Mon Nov  5 10:36:38 2001
From: MPlunkett at MSA.com (Plunkett, Matt)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:36:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] Editor Tips
Message-ID: <47F21152EF6CD511B60A0008C75941A755E582@MESQUITE.msais.com>

I have not tried the newest version of HomeSite, but my experience has been
that it is a memory hog.  It constantly pops up messages that tell me to
save all my applications because my memory is low.  With 128 MB of RAM, that
just isn't acceptable in my mind.  

EditPlus (and TextPad) are great lightweight editors.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Sam-I-Am [SMTP:sam at sam-i-am.com]
	Sent:	Friday, November 02, 2001 3:33 PM
	To:	thelist at lists.evolt.org
	Subject:	Re: [thelist] Editor Tips

	ah ha. I smell a bake off :)

	> EditPlus dig? Unless 'dig' has changed meanings and now means 'way
cool'
	> <tip type="EditPlus Keyboard Shortcut Assignment">
	>     Tools->Preferences->Tools-Keyboard->File->FileFTPUpload. By
default it
	> is Ctrl-Shift-S.
	> </tip>

	how about a script that uploads all the open files...
	Or, say, parses the current document for all it's dependants and
uploads
	those too?
	Or, lemme see, gets a list of files in the current directory,
presents
	it to you, and then uploads the ones you checked?

	all of this written in a handy language like javascript, and invoked
	with a keyboard shortcut, or a button on a toolbar within Homesite

	Sam

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From rklegman at mediaone.net  Mon Nov  5 10:37:34 2001
From: rklegman at mediaone.net (Ron Klegman)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:37:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
In-Reply-To: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E3A@grety.milcap.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBKDHNAKILPHDKFHBKGEBDGKAA.rklegman@mediaone.net>

Got it.. sorry for the confusion.

 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Scott Adamson
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:33 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] upgrading to IE6 leaves Java untouched ?
> 
> 
> IE6 does not include a java vm, when required IE 6 will ask you 
> to download and install the java vm if auto downloading is on, 
> the java vm is the same one that has shipped with ie since version 4.
> 
> So users upgrading to IE 6 will probably have a java vm, but 
> users with xp wont have  because the vm is not included in xp or ie6
> 




From scott at milcap.com  Mon Nov  5 10:38:09 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:38:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] asp regexp/substring
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E3C@grety.milcap.com>

Maybe a little off topic but don?t forget to check out http://regxlib.com for regular expressions, a vast amount of pre done paterns here

-----Original Message-----
From: Les Lytollis [mailto:les.lytollis at morse.com] 
Sent: 26 October 2001 16:19
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] asp regexp/substring


Hi All,

Can anyone tell me how I get the pagename in a URI using VBScript?

Example:
strFromPage = request.servervariables("HTTP_REFERER")
which gives
http://thedomain.com/somefolder/thepage.asp

how do I check if "thepage" is the name of the page?



TIA
Lez

--------------------------------------
Lez Lytollis
Internet Developer, Morse Professional Services
Morse Group Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)1332 826029 Fax: +44 (0)1332 826044
www.morse.com

This email and any attachments are confidential and are intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply email and then delete it from your system.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: me [mailto:me at cgiguy.com]
> Sent: 24 October 2001 19:55
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] auction site integration
> 
> 
> Les,
> 
> i once wrote a cgi for a stock trader in LA.
> He wanted to submit a message to multiple "message board" type 
> websites. We ended up with a single page whereby he could enter a 
> message in a textarea box, click one or more checkboxes to tell the 
> cgi which message sites to send the message to. The cgi would
> then:
> 
> a) automatically create a new login account for each site. (if needed)
> b) login to each site. (if needed)
> c) navigate thru the site and post the message.
> 
> It was nothing short of challenging to do this. In a nutshell, what i 
> built was nothing short of a browser simulator. The websites actually 
> thought i was a netscape browser coming to their site. I think that i 
> let them
> think that i was netscape. for what its worth, there are 
> trivial differences
> as to how the different browsers negotiate cookies, etc.
> 
> Anyway, yes, it would be possible for you to automatically submit 
> anything to any site. The way i did it, you basically have to manually 
> open a socket to the site, read the site's html(just like a browser 
> would) and then react accordingly.
> 
> I've actually gotten a request, though i dont have the fine
> details yet, to
> write some code that would know how to automatically buy and/or
> sell via several major stock exchanges/sites around the 
> world. The idea
> would be for my code to look for certain patterns and then act
> accordingly. Maybe when X happens at a particular exchange, 
> do something
> else, maybe buy or sell at another exchange. it sure sounds fun.
> 
> When i wrote the message board distribution code, i wrote a simulated 
> web server that, when called by netscape for example, allowed me to 
> see exactly what netscape was sending to the webserver. This way, i 
> knew exactly what to send to the message board via my cgi.
> 
> Funny thing is, the stock trader that i wrote the message submission 
> code for, he foolishly flooded the message boards with so many 
> messages that it almost made him look stupid. i told him, but he did
> not listen.
> he ended up looking like a common spammer. onward forward.
> 
> by the way, its a lot easier to do such a thing in a lower
> level language,
> such as c. and unix only makes it just that much easier too.
> 
> And, keep in mind, that my methods dont rely on any kind of API 
> whatsoever. In fact, it really matters to me none if the site in 
> question even approves of my automatic submissions. Hell, thats what 
> makes it fun. But, if their site layout changes, you will need to make 
> some modifications to your site too. But also if you are careful about 
> how you code it, they can make minor changes to their site and your
> auto submit code will still run.
> 
> And, there may be easier ways to accomplish this...
> I focus primarily on the lower level stuff. Thats all.
> 
> later.
> me.
> Nuevo Laredo, Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Les Lytollis <les.lytollis at morse.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:26 AM
> Subject: [thelist] auction site integration
> 
> 
> > Hi Evolters,
> >
> > I am trying to build some functionality into a site built
> for collectors
> and
> > traders which will allow them to store or enter their
> account details
> (for,
> > say eBay) on their own site, which would then allow them to
> seamlessly
> > upload content from their own database (or whatever
> datastore) to their
> > auction site account without having to re-enter all the
> details (at, say
> > eBay).
> >
> > As an example, a collector (OK, me;)) has a hundred comics
> to sell which
> are
> > all stored in a mySQL database. Using his own content
> management system
> > (built in PHP), the collector would be able to select ten
> of these comics
> > and click a "publish to eBay" (or QXL, whatever) button and
> the comics
> would
> > be published under the seller's account on the auction site and also 
> > displayed on his own site with a link to each auction.
> >
> > Does this mean I would have to contact each site and get
> some sort of API,
> > or is it fairly trivial to template the site forms and just
> convert the
> info
> > from the seller's db (in XML?), passing login details along with the 
> > content?
> >
> > Lot's of questions and fairly vague, I know - but if I can
> at least get
> some
> > directed questions from you guys, it will help me work out
> where I am
> going
> > with this.
> >
> > TIA
> > Lez
> >
> > <tip author="lez" type="php">
> >
> > Never discount the usefulness of phpinfo.
> >
> > If you have errors like "can't connect to tmp/sock/mysql",
> use it to check
> > that php is using the copy of php.ini that you think it is
> (Configuration
> > File (php.ini) Path).
> >
> > </tip>
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: 
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org 
> Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 

---------------------------------------
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From pgerenda at visteon.com  Mon Nov  5 10:42:50 2001
From: pgerenda at visteon.com (Gerenday, Perry (P.))
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:42:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
Message-ID: <200111051644.fA5GiBE08838@dymwsm12.mailwatch.com>

Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will support 75Hz or greater until we
hit the button and watch what happens?

Perry Gerenday
www.virtually-artistic.com


 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Joshua Olson [mailto:joshua at alphashop.net]
 > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:44 AM
 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
 > Subject: Re: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
 > 
 > 
 > Please, people, make sure your monitor can support 75Hz at whatever
 > resolution you are currently using before you try this.  Thnx
 > 
 > -joshua
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ---------------------------------------
 > For unsubscribe and other options, including
 > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
 > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
 > 



From scott at milcap.com  Mon Nov  5 10:46:31 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:46:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E3D@grety.milcap.com>

Don?t press enter on a black screen?

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerenday, Perry (P.) [mailto:pgerenda at visteon.com] 
Sent: 05 November 2001 17:44
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)


Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will support 75Hz or greater until we hit the button and watch what happens?

Perry Gerenday
www.virtually-artistic.com


 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Joshua Olson [mailto:joshua at alphashop.net]
 > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:44 AM
 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
 > Subject: Re: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
 > 
 > 
 > Please, people, make sure your monitor can support 75Hz at whatever  > resolution you are currently using before you try this.  Thnx  > 
 > -joshua
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ---------------------------------------
 > For unsubscribe and other options, including
 > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
 > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
 > 

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From joshua at alphashop.net  Mon Nov  5 10:48:33 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:48:33 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
References: <200111051644.fA5GiBE08838@dymwsm12.mailwatch.com>
Message-ID: <003701c1661b$2156a080$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

I guess look in the manual--which I know you saved when you unpacked the
monitor.  :)  Seriously, there are two methods in NT, "Test" and "Apply".
Use test since it'll wait 15 seconds and switch back if you do not confirm
the changes during the test.

-joshua

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerenday, Perry (P.)" <pgerenda at visteon.com>
Subject: RE: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)


: Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will support 75Hz or greater until we
: hit the button and watch what happens?
:
: Perry Gerenday
: www.virtually-artistic.com




From crsaila at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov  5 10:49:08 2001
From: crsaila at yahoo.ca (Craig Saila)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:49:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
References: <004e01c165f3$2bb49dc0$0b8bc540@aptiva>
Message-ID: <3BE6C391.1000502@yahoo.ca>

Michael McGlynn wrote:

> Just a quick site check for HTML issues, loading and link integrity.

...
 > http://www.microcomplete.com/stage/

(Viewed on Win2K running Moz/0.9.5 and Netscape 4.78)

Nice simple layout, easy to read and move around. You may want to 
consider a jello design given there's no str reason it should be 
anchored on the left.

Strongly suggest you use alt tags for the navigation images (although it 
was nice to see the alternate text nav at the bottom of the pages), and 
the alt for logo on the home page is too long (doesn't display well on 
browsers tested).

-- 
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com  :  http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From crsaila at yahoo.ca  Mon Nov  5 10:52:09 2001
From: crsaila at yahoo.ca (Craig Saila)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:52:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] button links to nowhere
References: <000001c164b7$931c4220$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <3BE6C449.3030509@yahoo.ca>

Bob Boisvert wrote:

> As a general rule of design, is it proper to leave those buttons there
> knowing they will be connected shortly, or should they be taken off until
> they are ready to be used?

I'd suggest not including the buttons until the content behind them is 
available. Having actionless buttons could confuse the purpose of the 
working buttons, and prevent people from clicking them once the new 
content is available.

-- 
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com  :  http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Mon Nov  5 10:53:07 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Mon Nov  5 10:53:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] Tip Time
In-Reply-To: <000001c16428$8f51b290$27a7fea9@dimension8200>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHMEPDCHAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

i see no problem in my IE4.x and upwards, NS4.x and upwards?
what problems are you refering to??

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of James & Beth Aylard
Sent: 03 November 2001 05:30
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Tip Time


Marc,
> Shouldn't this be
> color: #000000; and
> border-color: #FF9900; respectively?
>
> Can't recall exact circumstances, but I think I've seen 
> certain instances 
> where omitting the # sign caused browsers to choke.

	You are correct. The hash or pound sign (#) must precede hex
color values according to the CSS 2 recommendation [1]. IE 6 in
standards-compliance mode, for instance, will ignore hex color values
that lack the hash sign [2].

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata.html#value-def-color
2.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnie60/html/cssenhancements.asp?
frame=true#cssenhancements_topic7


---------------------------------------
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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From nopun at bellsouth.net  Mon Nov  5 11:03:06 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:03:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] XHTML validation question
References: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F418@BOOTROS>
Message-ID: <001d01c1661c$22212700$7399fea9@tyme>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Haworth <jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:51 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] XHTML validation question


> > > Just use <div id="blah"></div> ... no need to actually
> > > close blah with </div blah>
> >
> > TYME} Appreciate the response, but you missed the point entirely.  I
> _like_
> > using the closing tag descriptor.  Was asking if anyone had encountered
> any
> > adverse effects to this or had any reference that discuss using it.
>
> Hi Tyme,
>
> Couldn't you just use
>
> <div class="foo">
>    ...
>    ...
> </div><!-- foo -->
>
> as this neatly sidesteps any possible problems but still gives you the
same
> information?

TYME} Well, I _could_ ... :-)    And, I plan to do that, if necessary.  But,
still prefer the </div foo> style...is compact and more readable in web
editor with syntax highlighting set as it is.  ...Again, I am not
experiencing any browser problems using the end-tag descriptor, AFAIK.





From me at cgiguy.com  Mon Nov  5 11:15:27 2001
From: me at cgiguy.com (me)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:15:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] computer power consumption stats
References: <20011103035030.61888.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002401c16626$4f112a80$f17ab8d1@d5m2x3>

spin,

if ya want accurate numbers about power consumption,
there is really only one way to get 'em...

turn off *everything* electric in the house.
take a meter reading
run a single computer for say ten minutes.
take another meter reading.
call light company, get current electric rate.
calculate rate per minute/hour/etc.

i am sure that these numbers would be of interest
to many computer users.

now, do the same thing for ten mins with a
server that is "sleeping" and then do it again while
the server is experiencing heavy activity.

and you could do a test with all of your servers
running.

the numbers that you are getting from the light 
company are most likely not accurate. get
yer own. then and only then will ya know for sure.

of course though, i rarely ever use anybody else's
numbers for anything. i can only remember two
times that i have ever used somebody else's
source code. one was for some ssh code and
the other was for a recent credit card luhn validation
routine. i like numbers. in my current programming
efforts i keep track of how many ten thousandths of a
second each functions takes to execute. it makes for
some really cool low level tweeking.

but really though, its been my experience that when
the ol spouse is complaining about something simple
like the light bill, maybe she is really frustrated about
something else... go figure..

me.

> --- spinhead <evolt at spinhead.com> wrote:
> > Know of any online info re: how much power a
> > computer uses when it's in full
> > power-saving mode? Seems the local utility co told
> > my wife that a potential
> > cause of our larger electric bill is 'increased
> > computer use' and now she
> > insists that all machines be shut down every night.
> > Including my server. I
> > really need some comparison to a normal household
> > item, e.g. 'in power save
> > mode, a computer uses the same electricity as a 40
> > watt light bulb' would be
> > nice.
> > 
> > spinhead
> > 
> > Okay, so I have 9 computers. That's not excessive is
> > it? It's only 1.5 per
> > person.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Find a job, post your resume.
> http://careers.yahoo.com
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From sfmalo at msn.com  Mon Nov  5 11:26:05 2001
From: sfmalo at msn.com (sfmalo)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:26:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Problem with applet reloading
References: <000901c1651b$984ba060$88241b3f@oemcomputer> <1602166985.20011104105457@kfx-design.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004c01c1661e$9520eea0$69241b3f@oemcomputer>

Hi Kristina -
The pictures you see in the applet are not the ones I'm going to use; this is just a prototype...and there will be 10 of them ... and, yes, I'll probably slow it down. My main concern is what I originally wrote about -- the reloading problem whenever I go back to the Home page. The more I think of it, the more it may be a problem. If it takes this long with three pix, how long will it take showing 10? Just some musings. Thanks for your input.

Sharon

> > It's when I go to other pages using I.E. 5.5, then go back to the
> > Home page that the problem starts. It attempts to reload and I
> > either see a "blank" space for a long time or it loads in text from
> > the paragraphs above it. Weird. I haven't checked it out in NN4.7 or
> > 6.1 yet to see if the same thing happens. 
> ::
> 
>  The applet worked fine for me in IE5.5 and N4.7 (though the font is a
>  little small in N4.7)
> 
>  As the paintings seem to be so similar, it was difficult to see what
>  they are as they fade through the sequence.  Perhaps just one
>  picture of a painting in that position would work?  (just a thought)
>  Then you could lose the applet.....  or lenghten the time that a
>  whole painting is visible, as the fade seems to be quite fast...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com





From mailing.lists at creed.co.uk  Mon Nov  5 11:28:09 2001
From: mailing.lists at creed.co.uk (Andy Warwick)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:28:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] SSI in Dreamweavweaver
In-Reply-To: <000401c16520$7fa54160$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <20011105172932-r01010700-a50daeaa-0921-0108@192.168.0.2>

On 2001-11-04 at 06:04, webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert) wrote:

> The site is www.calvarylargo.org please make any comments about the site
> also, I'm interested in correcting any problems or mistakes I may have made
> in the design.

A huge improvement on the pages since you last addressed the list; looking very
good now.

Some minor points:

Your home page doesn't link correctly from other pages, giving a '404 Object not
found' error. Looks like it is requesting index.shtml, not index.html.

I'd also consider changing some of your alt text.

For instance, the alt text for your masthead reads: "Calvary Masthead"; IMHO, it
would be better reading "God's lighthouse...<snip> ...392-4700" (So the alt-text
is exactly what the masthead actually reads, not a description of what it is.)

The 'Contact Calvary' button also spooked me; I was expecting it to go to a page
with address, telephone and email details, not open an email message in my email
program. I don't have a problem with websites doing that, but given that all the
other buttons go to pages, it was unexpected and jarring.

HTH

Andy Warwick



From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Mon Nov  5 11:28:58 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC Webmaster)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:28:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] Tip Time
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHMEPDCHAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1661f$c860a200$2860398a@newcos.com>

Paul,

> i see no problem in my IE4.x and upwards, NS4.x and upwards?
> what problems are you refering to??

    Neither IE 6, when in standards-compliance mode, nor Mozilla will render
hex color values that are not preceded by a hash mark. Obviously, in IE 6
you can code around this by not triggering standards-compliance mode. But
why not just include a hash mark in all of your hex color values? It's a
simple habit, it's the standard, and it's the direction in which browsers
are heading.

James Aylard




From neal at constructweb.com  Mon Nov  5 11:52:36 2001
From: neal at constructweb.com (construct)
Date: Mon Nov  5 11:52:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] refresh rate
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHMEPDCHAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com> <008201c1661f$c860a200$2860398a@newcos.com>
Message-ID: <011f01c1661e$f8e9abc0$fbdab9d1@uninc.com>

under refresh rate my computer only shows
optimal 
and
default

is this the card?





From kernel at esatclear.ie  Mon Nov  5 12:01:18 2001
From: kernel at esatclear.ie (Ross Lynch)
Date: Mon Nov  5 12:01:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <200111051644.fA5GiBE08838@dymwsm12.mailwatch.com>
Message-ID: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJEECFCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>

> Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will
> support 75Hz or greater until we
> hit the button and watch what happens?

Check your monitor manual or in recent version of
Windows under the Display Control Panel, there's an
option when you're changing the frequency only to
display supported modes. In any case, Windows will
switch back after 15 seconds if you don't click to
say "Yes, keep this new setting".

 -Ross

____________________________________________________
ross lynch  | me at rosslynch.com  | +353 (0)87 9683368
____________________________________________________
Nicht auf dem Teppich, Mann!





From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Nov  5 12:14:15 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Mon Nov  5 12:14:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] SSI in Dreamweavweaver
In-Reply-To: <20011105172932-r01010700-a50daeaa-0921-0108@192.168.0.2>
Message-ID: <000c01c16627$106b4df0$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

Thanks,

I have been changing things little by little. It was looking for index.shtml
but I have changed that back to index.html and physically put the text links
on the home page. The text links are SSI on the rest of the pages. to look
at it now you may have to use the IP address, I just transferred servers
yesterday and it doesn't look like it has taken affect yet
http://204.143.86.52

I have been torn between doing a contact page rather than an email link but
the church hasn't given me enough info on the emails and information they
want set up for them. I also thought that it might become to redundant
because the church address is on each page along with the phone number, on
the other hand it may be a bit more organized to have a page for contacting.

Decisions, decisions

Thanks for your advise, I have changed the alt text on the Masthead, logo
and other areas. I also think your right about the contact page and will
start working on that.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Andy Warwick
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 12:30 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Cc: Bob Boisvert
Subject: Re: [thelist] SSI in Dreamweavweaver


On 2001-11-04 at 06:04, webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert) wrote:

> The site is www.calvarylargo.org please make any comments about the site
> also, I'm interested in correcting any problems or mistakes I may have
made
> in the design.

A huge improvement on the pages since you last addressed the list; looking
very
good now.

Some minor points:

Your home page doesn't link correctly from other pages, giving a '404 Object
not
found' error. Looks like it is requesting index.shtml, not index.html.

I'd also consider changing some of your alt text.

For instance, the alt text for your masthead reads: "Calvary Masthead";
IMHO, it
would be better reading "God's lighthouse...<snip> ...392-4700" (So the
alt-text
is exactly what the masthead actually reads, not a description of what it
is.)

The 'Contact Calvary' button also spooked me; I was expecting it to go to a
page
with address, telephone and email details, not open an email message in my
email
program. I don't have a problem with websites doing that, but given that all
the
other buttons go to pages, it was unexpected and jarring.

HTH

Andy Warwick

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
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From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Mon Nov  5 12:44:45 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Mon Nov  5 12:44:45 2001
Subject: Fwd: Re:[thelist] ASP Date? (fwd)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011105124923.00aab5e8@pop.gvtc.com>

>Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:34:35 -0600
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com
>Subject: Re:[thelist] ASP Date? (fwd)
>
> >In ASP, how do I insert the current date into a variable?
>
>
><%
>Dim DateToday
>DateToday = Date
>%>
>
>Jay Blanchard
>Web Dev Mgr
>TMC
>1.512.396.5801 x327




From talleman at RealMetros.com  Mon Nov  5 13:24:14 2001
From: talleman at RealMetros.com (Tab Alleman)
Date: Mon Nov  5 13:24:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fighting with XML, XSL....
Message-ID: <748F417236D57847829976483DEBC0C10158DA@typhoon.RealMetros.RealMetros.com>

Well I can tell you that based on the error message, it looks like you
have some data that isn't in an element... the first tag:  <?xml
version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>  is just kind of a declaration.. it
doesn't have a closing tag.. the next thing that should come along the
is document root element (something like <list>...</list>).. but looks
like you go right into some text:  "Beginning XMLJohnMastering
XMLPeter".

hth..
Tab

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Parrot [mailto:nicole at parrot.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:50 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Fighting with XML, XSL....


Hi evolters...

I've decided to do my latest project based on XML, for the experience.
The
client doesn't care either way, as long as I deliver something.  I've
toyed
with XML a little while ago (I even remember answering a few questions
here
at the time :)   ) but now I'm lost.
My XML file is now properly generated, although the accompanying DTD is
not
done. It's a listing of companies, with contact info, and addresses.

I'm trying to generate the appropriate html pages from that, using
VBScript.
My Web server is IIS 5.1, the version that comes with Windows XP
Professional.  I'm going with a script found on MSDN, and guess what,
the
script doesn't work...  The script can be found here:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q301/3/94.asp?SD=MSDN&F
R=0

And this is the error I am getting using IE: (I have a straight
copy/paste
of the example in the above URL). Anyone here has a clue???

    Switch from current encoding to specified encoding not supported.
Error
processing resource
'http://localhost/atoz/TransformXml.asp?xml=Books.xml&xsl=Books.xsl'.
Line
1, Position 40

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>Beginning XMLJohnMastering
XMLPeter
---------------------------------------^


Thanks for any help thrown my way...

<Nicole />




---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From poojie at dccnet.com  Mon Nov  5 14:31:43 2001
From: poojie at dccnet.com (Daryl Grant)
Date: Mon Nov  5 14:31:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] refresh rate
In-Reply-To: <011f01c1661e$f8e9abc0$fbdab9d1@uninc.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBJDKMALLKICIOPFHIKEMJCAAA.poojie@dccnet.com>

quote: -------------------------------

under refresh rate my computer only shows
optimal 
and
default

is this the card?
-------------------------------------

I don't know. What kind of card do you have?

Daryl





From rgoviatt at nbnet.nb.ca  Mon Nov  5 14:36:31 2001
From: rgoviatt at nbnet.nb.ca (Rob Oviatt)
Date: Mon Nov  5 14:36:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] Tip Time
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHOEOECHAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <3BE2BCEF.1B41F63F@sam-i-am.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105163550.009ee8b0@smtp.nbnet.nb.ca>

Thanks for the tip, Paul.  Any idea on how to do this using <select>? I've 
never been able to figure out how to change the border colors of the box.

Rob Oviatt

At 05:27 PM 11/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Tip time
>
><tip type="styling input fields">
>In your styling try this for nice effects:
>
>input.general{
>         font-family: arial;
>         font-size: 12px;
>         color: 000000;
>         background: transparent;
>         border-width: 1px;
>         border-style: solid;
>         border-color: FF9900;"
>}
></tip>
>
>cheers
>
>Paul Backhouse
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From nicole at parrot.ca  Mon Nov  5 14:37:46 2001
From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot)
Date: Mon Nov  5 14:37:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fighting with XML, XSL....
References: <748F417236D57847829976483DEBC0C10158DA@typhoon.RealMetros.RealMetros.com>
Message-ID: <003301c16639$f71b6020$0429ca18@nparrot>

Hi Tab
Thanks for answering.

My XML file is fine. What I sent to the list is the result of applying a XSL
to my XML, and generating (well, trying to) standard HTML.

The end result *should* have been an HTML table, but obviously it's not. The
XSL does not get applied properly.

And this is an example I got right off the Microsoft site too... Sigh...

Nicole
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tab Alleman" <talleman at RealMetros.com>


> Well I can tell you that based on the error message, it looks like you
> have some data that isn't in an element... the first tag:  <?xml
> version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>  is just kind of a declaration.. it
> doesn't have a closing tag.. the next thing that should come along the
> is document root element (something like <list>...</list>).. but looks
> like you go right into some text:  "Beginning XMLJohnMastering
> XMLPeter".





From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Mon Nov  5 14:52:07 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Mon Nov  5 14:52:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] refresh rate
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJDKMALLKICIOPFHIKEMJCAAA.poojie@dccnet.com>; from poojie@dccnet.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:34:38PM -0800
References: <011f01c1661e$f8e9abc0$fbdab9d1@uninc.com> <NFBBJDKMALLKICIOPFHIKEMJCAAA.poojie@dccnet.com>
Message-ID: <20011105125335.C250@simianbrotherhood.org>

This usually occurs when windows doesn't have the correct drivers
installed for the monitor, so it doesn't know what rates the monitor can
support.

poke around your monitor manufacturer's site and see if you can find the
right drivers.

-d

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:34:38PM -0800, Daryl Grant wrote:
> 
> quote: -------------------------------
> 
> under refresh rate my computer only shows
> optimal 
> and
> default
> 
> is this the card?
> -------------------------------------
> 
> I don't know. What kind of card do you have?
> 
> Daryl
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From lauri_lists at tharapita.com  Mon Nov  5 15:19:50 2001
From: lauri_lists at tharapita.com (Lauri Vain)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:19:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
Message-ID: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7>

Heya all,

I had to implement a mouseover system to the user side of the CMS for a
travelling agency.

There is a default picture at the beginning (a totally random test image at the
moment). Now, when the visitor slides his or her mouse over a link, then the
named image should change to 'picture1.gif' for example. When the visitor
proceeds to the next link, then the default image should be replaced with
another image, named something like 'blah.gif'.
When the user slides his or her mouse off from the link, then the 'default'
image should return!

At the moment the mouseover "thingie" causes flickering and is not pretty at all
when the visitor goes from one link to another and the default image appares in
a split second between those two images.

Check out http://www.interest.ee/~vain/allin1/ for what I'm speaking about!

Any ideas, how to stop the 'default' image from returning when the visitor goes
from one link to another? The only think I've been able to think of, is a time
delay of some sort but that's not a very elegant idea, now is it? How can I
eliminate this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Lauri




From todd_tyler at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 15:27:49 2001
From: todd_tyler at yahoo.com (Todd Tyler)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:27:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] refresh rate
References: <011f01c1661e$f8e9abc0$fbdab9d1@uninc.com> <NFBBJDKMALLKICIOPFHIKEMJCAAA.poojie@dccnet.com> <20011105125335.C250@simianbrotherhood.org>
Message-ID: <00b901c16640$df180d00$1f65a8c0@TTYLERGX110>

Or the correct driver may already be installed with Windows. On the
'Monitors' tab, hit the 'Change' button and see if you can find your monitor
in there. If you don't see your exact model, one close to yours may work
fine.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Preston" <caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] refresh rate


> This usually occurs when windows doesn't have the correct drivers
> installed for the monitor, so it doesn't know what rates the monitor can
> support.
>
> poke around your monitor manufacturer's site and see if you can find the
> right drivers.
>
> -d
>
> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:34:38PM -0800, Daryl Grant wrote:
> >
> > quote: -------------------------------
> >
> > under refresh rate my computer only shows
> > optimal
> > and
> > default



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From BKing at Impact-Technologies.com  Mon Nov  5 15:35:35 2001
From: BKing at Impact-Technologies.com (Brian King)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:35:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] refresh rate
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B7849137163228@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717562F@ITG_B02>

Or if you are using a higher end adapter, such as a GeForce2 or 3,
(VooDoo5500 also did this, not sure of the others).  Some of the
manufacturers have taken the liberty to rearrange the screens, add tabs,
subtract others, or ever provide an secondary application to make the
settings.  If this is the case, the manufacturers web site will probably
have some helpful information on where to find the adjustments.

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Tyler
Subject: Re: [thelist] refresh rate

Or the correct driver may already be installed with Windows. On the
'Monitors' tab, hit the 'Change' button and see if you can find your monitor
in there. If you don't see your exact model, one close to yours may work
fine.

> This usually occurs when windows doesn't have the correct drivers
> installed for the monitor, so it doesn't know what rates the monitor can
> support.
>
> poke around your monitor manufacturer's site and see if you can find the
> right drivers.





From phammar at dplanet.ch  Mon Nov  5 15:41:29 2001
From: phammar at dplanet.ch (Peter Hammar)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:41:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
References: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7>
Message-ID: <001501c16642$e6596ee0$a63e23d4@computer>

> At the moment the mouseover "thingie" causes flickering and is not pretty
at all
> when the visitor goes from one link to another and the default image
appares in
> a split second between those two images.

Hi,

one solution would be to change your link's display to 'block' and fix their
height :
 a {display:block; height: 20px}
this will remove the space between them and cause the mouseout from link 1
to be
immediatly followed by mouseover of link 2.

hth,
peter




From bill at ilovett.com  Mon Nov  5 15:43:27 2001
From: bill at ilovett.com (Bill Lovett)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:43:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
In-Reply-To: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7>; from lauri_lists@tharapita.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 11:22:41PM +0200
References: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7>
Message-ID: <20011105164055.A1516@rcn.com>

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 11:22:41PM +0200, Lauri Vain wrote:


> Check out http://www.interest.ee/~vain/allin1/ for what I'm speaking about!
> 
> Any ideas, how to stop the 'default' image from returning when the visitor goes
> from one link to another? The only think I've been able to think of, is a time
> delay of some sort but that's not a very elegant idea, now is it? How can I
> eliminate this problem?

As far as I know, the time delay idea is the only way to do what you
want to do the way things are set up right now. A mouseout event can't
tell what the user is going to do next, so there's no way to
distinguish between a mouseout that should restore the default image
and a mouseout that should keep the current image because a new one is
going to swap in. If it were possible to turn those links into images,
and put the images right on top of each other with no whitespace at
all, you'd still be in the same boat but the flicker wouldn't happen
because the onmouseout and onmouseover would fire without the delay
that you have now.

Keep after the time delay idea. 

-bill



From net.slave at liepins.de  Mon Nov  5 15:49:14 2001
From: net.slave at liepins.de (Lasar Liepins)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:49:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
In-Reply-To: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7>
Message-ID: <280E6528-D237-11D5-BD95-000393498EA4@liepins.de>

Tere.

> At the moment the mouseover "thingie" causes flickering and is 
> not pretty at all
> when the visitor goes from one link to another and the default 
> image appares in
> a split second between those two images.
>
> Check out http://www.interest.ee/~vain/allin1/ for what I'm 
> speaking about!
>
> Any ideas, how to stop the 'default' image from returning when 
> the visitor goes
> from one link to another? The only think I've been able to 
> think of, is a time
> delay of some sort but that's not a very elegant idea, now is 
> it? How can I
> eliminate this problem?

I'd think that a timeout should work quite well.

<a ... onmouseout="window.setTimeout('imgswap(\'pic1\', 
\'none.gif\')',1000)">link</a>

If I'm not mistaken, this should return to the default image one 
second after leaving the link.

Good luck,

_ Lasar




From lauri_lists at tharapita.com  Mon Nov  5 15:59:12 2001
From: lauri_lists at tharapita.com (Lauri Vain)
Date: Mon Nov  5 15:59:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
References: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7> <20011105164055.A1516@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <003501c16645$7ef13c80$1631a8c0@hot7>

Hi all,

Bill wrote:
> time delay idea is the only way to do what you
> want to do the way things are set up right now.

On the other hand it would be sorta lame in some aspects.
When I set the time delay to 1000 (that is 1 sec) then the user would experience
the delay in all cases. Even when s/he decides not to hover above any other
link. So basically the flickering will be eliminated but the user experience may
seem somewhat slow due to the fact that the one sec delay would always be
introduced.

Peter wrote:
> a {display:block; height: 20px}
> this will remove the space between them and cause the
> mouseout from link 1 to be immediatly followed by
> mouseover of link 2.

On which platforms/browsers does it work? Not many browsers handle CSS
flawlessly.

p.s.  Sorry for the typos in the last post :(

Yours,
Lauri




From phammar at dplanet.ch  Mon Nov  5 16:30:44 2001
From: phammar at dplanet.ch (Peter Hammar)
Date: Mon Nov  5 16:30:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] JS mouseover problem
References: <013801c16640$0164ae00$1631a8c0@hot7> <20011105164055.A1516@rcn.com> <003501c16645$7ef13c80$1631a8c0@hot7>
Message-ID: <002201c16649$c7a723f0$283823d4@computer>

 > a {display:block; height: 20px}
> > this will remove the space between them and cause the
> > mouseout from link 1 to be immediatly followed by
> > mouseover of link 2.
> 
> On which platforms/browsers does it work? Not many browsers handle CSS
> flawlessly.

i'm living in intranet developpemnt wonderland :o)

But
<a href="#" style="height: 20px">link 1</a><br>
<a href="#" style="height: 20px">link 2</a>

works in NS 4.08 and 4.7  so there may be hope for the others.




From meganwh at prodigy.net  Mon Nov  5 16:45:08 2001
From: meganwh at prodigy.net (Megan Holbrook)
Date: Mon Nov  5 16:45:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
References: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAECEMMCDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3BE7345D.4D933842@prodigy.net>

<ignorant question>

Does running a monitor at 100hz vs. 75hz increase the energy usage of
the monitor?

</ignorant question>

<tip type="MS Passport warning">
Another programmer came out today with a warning that Microsoft's
Passport wallet was insecure when using Hotmail, and that he was able to
capture user credit card information.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22655.html
</tip>

M.

Norman Beresford wrote:
> 
> Or even better, see if your monitor will support a high refresh rate and run
> it at that.  The faster the better (/me is running at 100hz).
> 
> Norman
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Joshua Olson
> > Sent: 05 November 2001 16:44
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: Re: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
> >
> >
> > Please, people, make sure your monitor can support 75Hz at whatever
> > resolution you are currently using before you try this.  Thnx
> >
> > -joshua
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

-- 
Megan Holbrook - megan at kapow.com
Partner - Business Development
kapow, inc. (www.kapow.com)

kapow, inc. Milwaukee               kapow, inc. Los Angeles
2405 E. Wyoming Place               2130 Sawtelle Blvd, #302A
Milwaukee, WI 53202                 Los Angeles, CA 90025
T: 414-273-2446 * F: 419-793-6271   T: 310-479-2020 * F: 310-473-3711



From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov  5 16:47:10 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov  5 16:47:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] admin: late posts
Message-ID: <3BE71717.5010003@members.evolt.org>

Hola folks -

You may notice some emails dated from the past couple days just now 
entering your inboxes. Don't be alarmed, its nothing that you did, one 
of the relay servers for the evolt lists hada  bit of a problem over the 
weekend hada  bit of a problem :)

Each time a message was sent out to any evolt list, it only got to about 
2/3rds of the people subbed to that list.. Those other 1/3rd of the 
messsages that didn't get through to you the first time and starting to 
come back through now.. The problems been fixed, just didn't want anyone 
to be alarmed if they started getting emails from this last weekend.

As always, feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.. 
Sorry about any inconvienence! :)

<tip type="easy apache password protection">	

If you've got an Apache server and want a quick and easy way to password 
protect certain directories, add the following to an .htaccess file in 
teh directory you want to protect:

require valid-user
AuthType Basic
AuthName Super_Secret_Directory
AuthUserFile /home/youruser/apache.passwd

This will only allow users in the /home/youruser/apache.passwd file 
access to the directory you have the .htaccess file in. Also make sure 
you keep the file out of your web root(usually 
/home/youruser/public_html ) so no one can see the users who are allowed.

To add users to the file, use the htpasswd utility like so:
htpasswd -c /home/youruser/apache.passwd <user>

It will prompt you for a password for the <user> name you enter. The 
next time you're ready to add another user to the password file, remove 
the -c flag from htpasswd. You only wanna use that flag the first time 
you run htpasswd beceause it creates the /home/youruser/apache.passwd 
file for you

</tip>

.djc.




From mailing.lists at creed.co.uk  Mon Nov  5 16:47:44 2001
From: mailing.lists at creed.co.uk (Andy Warwick)
Date: Mon Nov  5 16:47:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] file management practices for design shops
In-Reply-To: <CCEGIMEOOJMNKLDIKFJBCEJGCPAA.bart@archrival.com>
Message-ID: <20011105224917-r01010700-dc535c6c-0921-0108@192.168.0.2>

On 2001-11-02 at 14:16, bart at archrival.com (Bart Johnston) wrote:

> Hey everybody,
> 
> Lately, I've been trying to establish some solid file management practices
> for the design firm I work for, and I'm curious about some of the solutions
> that some of you out there might have come up with.

<snip>

>but what I'm really more interested in are naming schemes

Big can of worms this, and will probably generate a lot of replies. For what
it's worth, over many years we've come up with the following naming scheme.

  Photoshop file, saved in native format with all layers intact and in RGB:
  
    example_file_name.psd
    
  'Flattened' image, saved as CMYK and sharpened:
  
    example_file_name_HC_20.tif
    example_file_name_HC_20.eps
    
  'Flatterned' image, save as RGB and shrunk to 72dpi
  
    example_file_name_HS_01.jpg
    
In the flattened images, the coding is at follows:

    example_file_name_<quality><color mode>_<size in MB>.<filetype>
    
So for the 'quality' position we have a subjective statment of a file's quality.
This allows up to grade a file we didn't create, or have rezzed up from a
low-res original.

    Quality
    --------
    
    H - High, usually generated on site or scanned from good original
    M - Medium, usually supplied by third party or from 35mm trannie
    L - Low, maybe a 72 dpi original changed to 300 dpi, or from a print.
    
The 'color mode' indicates what the file's color mode is.

    Color
    -------
    
    C - CMYK
    S - Screen (RGB) - for multimedia, web and powerpoint
    G - Greyscale
    M - Mono - black and white
    246 - Pantone 246
    
The size is in MB, and is the size as indicated in photoshop after any
decompression. A JPEG may be 200K on disk, but once opened it may be a 15MB
file; it would be coded as '_15.jpg'

This allows us to look at a filename and get a rough idea of how large it can be
used. A '_01.jpg' file, for instance, would be fine on a website, but not on a
poster.

Using this coding, the filename stays the same for all versions of the file, and
the suffix section changed depending on size, color-depth, resolution and
filetype.

  Small, web logo in greyscale
  
    logo_name_HG_01.jpg
  
  Same logo in hi-res CMYK for print
  
    logo_name_HC_12.tif
    
  Same logo in vectorline as pantone color
  
    logo_name_H246_V.eps (V is a wildcard to indicate a vector file)
    
  Same logo in hi-res CMYK for print, but from a poor original
  
    logo_name_LC_12.tif
    
The advantages of this are we can use applescript and isolate portions of the
filename (working from the back to the front), to automate conversions and
renaming tasks.

Of course, the exact coding can be whatever you want; you might want to use 'P'
instead of 'C', for 'Press' instead of 'CMYK'.

The key to the system is isolating sections to make searching easy, and
revealing info about the file without opening it when you are looking through
backup catalogues or printed file lists.

HTH

Andy Warwick



From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov  5 16:50:40 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov  5 16:50:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] Configuring Apache virtual host path to own cgi-bin
References: <20011103123230.CF4BE8EE@relay.evolt.org> <000301c1657a$c7778980$27d42cc3@athlon800>
Message-ID: <3BE717E9.3050303@members.evolt.org>

Hey George -

Inside your <virtualhost> directive for mydomain.com, add something like 
this:

ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "f:\www\mydomain.com\cgi-bin\"

That should get you what you want :)

Shout if it doesn't..

.djc.

George Dillon <> Evolt! wrote:

> I'm sure this is dead simple, but it's had me stumped for months... so any
> help would be much appreciated.
> 
> I'm trying (again) to get CGIs working locally using Apache and ActivePerl,
> and I'm almost there this time...
> 
> So far I have set up a virtual host 127.0.0.3 with root "f:/www/testsite3"
> 
> If I call a cgi (e.g. "hello.cgi" from
> http://127.0.0.3/testsite3/cgitest.shtml )
> my error.log indicates that Apache is looking for the cgi in "E:\Program
> Files\Apache Group\Apache\cgi-bin" (and if I put it in that directory it
> works fine)
> 
> I want each virtual directory to have its own cgi-bin, so in the case above
> I want Apache to look in "F:\www\mydomain.com\cgi-bin"
> 
> How do I set this up?





From phammar at dplanet.ch  Mon Nov  5 17:01:25 2001
From: phammar at dplanet.ch (Peter Hammar)
Date: Mon Nov  5 17:01:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] admin: late posts
References: <3BE71717.5010003@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <007801c1664e$0f533c80$283823d4@computer>

> <tip type="easy apache password protection">
...
> To add users to the file, use the htpasswd utility like so:
> htpasswd -c /home/youruser/apache.passwd <user>
> It will prompt you for a password for the <user> name you enter
...
> </tip>

Hi,
Is there a way to do this without having access to the server prompt?
i've tried w/ php's exec function but was blocked by the 'prompt for
password' part.

htpasswd's man page doesn't mention a -p switch to enter the password
directly.

Thank you,
Peter






From hassan at webtuitive.com  Mon Nov  5 17:12:14 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Mon Nov  5 17:12:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] admin: late posts
References: <3BE71717.5010003@members.evolt.org> <007801c1664e$0f533c80$283823d4@computer>
Message-ID: <3BE71D27.C8426D39@webtuitive.com>

Peter Hammar wrote:

> Is there a way to do this without having access to the server prompt?
> i've tried w/ php's exec function but was blocked by the 'prompt for
> password' part.
> 
> htpasswd's man page doesn't mention a -p switch to enter the password
> directly.

How about 

 -b  Use the password from the command line rather than prompting for it.

HTH!
-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From sam at sam-i-am.com  Mon Nov  5 17:47:22 2001
From: sam at sam-i-am.com (Sam-I-Am)
Date: Mon Nov  5 17:47:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] Editor Tips
References: <47F21152EF6CD511B60A0008C75941A755E582@MESQUITE.msais.com>
Message-ID: <3BE725E9.708DA81F@sam-i-am.com>

"Plunkett, Matt" wrote:
> 
> I have not tried the newest version of HomeSite, but my experience has been
> that it is a memory hog.  It constantly pops up messages that tell me to
> save all my applications because my memory is low.  With 128 MB of RAM, that
> just isn't acceptable in my mind.

I'm running 4.5.2 .. it fixed some of the memory problems previous 4.*
versions were having, but you are right- it still takes more than it
should 

> EditPlus (and TextPad) are great lightweight editors.

agreed.. and my ideal editor would be an editplus or textpad with a few
of homesite's features, with a more open architecture that allows much
more scripting and customization. Of the numerous features homesite has,
I use maybe 20%. I like the internal, built-in preview (browser). I like
the color coding (fairly common now). I like the multi-pane thing (all
hideable/viewable from keyboard shortcuts) for the resource tabs and
results. I don't use tag completion.. though that might be handy working
when with a different language or tag set ..e.g a custom dtd/schema. I
do like the regexp-capable extended search and replace (multi-line). I
like the code collapsing feature (though it's still a little slow/buggy
so I don't use it as much as I like.. I also want it to be scriptable) 

I like the snippets, I like the customiseable toolbars. I like the
properties menu commands to strip tags, make lists, add dates etc.. This
too should be configurable.

you get the idea. I'm not wed to Homesite at all.. quite the contrary,
as I fully it expect it to get worse rather than better over time. I
just want to see someone adopt the good stuff and built it into a fast
lightweight editor/environment (not ala first page 2k, which cloned the
interface and missed the useful features)

anyhow enough ranting.. and a tip to salve my own conscience for
inflicting this on you all

<tip type="working with multiple code editors">
No one tool does it all. Maybe Ultraedit it great for handling large
files, it's easy macros, column mode editing. But Homesite is better for
your day to day html/asp type work. But Dreamweaver is better when
making simple copy changes within complex layouts. 
Invest in RAM and run them all at once. When you alt+tab over, each will
prompt you to reload the changed file.. do what you need to do, save and
alt+tab back. 
While waiting for the perfect editor there's work to do.. 
</tip>
</tip>
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Sam-I-Am [SMTP:sam at sam-i-am.com]
>         Sent:   Friday, November 02, 2001 3:33 PM
>         To:     thelist at lists.evolt.org
>         Subject:        Re: [thelist] Editor Tips
> 
>         ah ha. I smell a bake off :)
> 
>         > EditPlus dig? Unless 'dig' has changed meanings and now means 'way
> cool'
>         > <tip type="EditPlus Keyboard Shortcut Assignment">
>         >     Tools->Preferences->Tools-Keyboard->File->FileFTPUpload. By
> default it
>         > is Ctrl-Shift-S.
>         > </tip>
> 
>         how about a script that uploads all the open files...
>         Or, say, parses the current document for all it's dependants and
> uploads
>         those too?
>         Or, lemme see, gets a list of files in the current directory,
> presents
>         it to you, and then uploads the ones you checked?
> 
>         all of this written in a handy language like javascript, and invoked
>         with a keyboard shortcut, or a button on a toolbar within Homesite
> 
>         Sam
> 
>         ---------------------------------------
>         For unsubscribe and other options, including
>         the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>         http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com  Mon Nov  5 17:48:18 2001
From: martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
Date: Mon Nov  5 17:48:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
Message-ID: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com>

Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers

-------------------- Start of message text --------------------

Absolutely this discussion belongs here - it's about working
in this medium, right?

So it belongs here.

Cheers
Martin
<tip type="usability testing">
Do not ever allow your usability testing to become market research
(and particularly a focus group).

Usability testing asks a different question: "Is this thing we are
proposing
*easy to use*", rather than marketing's "Do you *like* this thing we are
proposing".

Although the testing methodology is somewhat like Direct Marketing
testing - it measures behaviours, not opinions.

</tip>



To:   thelist at lists.evolt.org


Subject:  Re: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates


There also seems to be the a bit of overlap between sigia-l and CHI-WEB. I
often find the same discussion at both places. Part of this could be
because "pure" information architecture suffers from an identity crisis.
Where does IA begin and end? I prefer to look at IA as just one component
of the user experience. I'm not sure that it's enough by itself.

Does this discussion belong here? I don't see many IA, UX topics discussed
on thelist. :(
(and I'd like to change that)




--------------------- End of message text --------------------

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behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming
e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and
telecommunications systems.
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taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
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this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
computer.




From shug.miller at ntlworld.com  Mon Nov  5 17:54:53 2001
From: shug.miller at ntlworld.com (Shug Miller)
Date: Mon Nov  5 17:54:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] file management practices for design shops
References: <20011105224917-r01010700-dc535c6c-0921-0108@192.168.0.2>
Message-ID: <001901c16655$90b4b5e0$2c0cfd3e@default>

On 2001-11-02 at 14:16, bart at archrival.com (Bart Johnston) wrote:

> Hey everybody,
>
> Lately, I've been trying to establish some solid file management practices
> for the design firm I work for, and I'm curious about some of the
solutions
> that some of you out there might have come up with.

<snip>

>but what I'm really more interested in are naming schemes

The system I have with seems to be standardised across the various design
companies and other printshops I deal with, hence the fact I use it ;).

Photoshop Files:

<Company Name><Desc of File Content><Colour Depth><dpi><File Format>

For example local restaurant menu (because I have been working on one)

Ricos XmasMenuCvr C 400 Tiff

C=CMYK, B=Black and White Bitmap, R=RGB

Adobe Illustrator:

<Company Name><Desc of File><Colour Depth/Pantone Refs.><File Format>

Ricos XmasMenuLogo C EPS

C=CMYK, B=B&W, PMS would be something like 289+ProcessBlue

Quark Express:

<Company Name><Desc of File><Print Size (paper)><Paper Type><Finishing>

Ricos XmasMenu01 SRA3 Mtx280 LS Turn A5 F

For an SRA3 print on Mellotex 280gsm Board printed Landscape paper turned
not tumbled, final size A5 folded.

It makes sense to us at least :D










From gary at whiteroseproductions.com  Mon Nov  5 18:16:09 2001
From: gary at whiteroseproductions.com (Gary Pool)
Date: Mon Nov  5 18:16:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <3BE7345D.4D933842@prodigy.net>
References: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAECEMMCDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>
 <3BE7345D.4D933842@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <a05100308b80cdc12d16c@[24.20.78.140]>

><ignorant question>
>
>Does running a monitor at 100hz vs. 75hz increase the energy usage of
>the monitor?
>
></ignorant question>




What is more important, your eyes or your electric bill?


-- 
Gary Pool
gary at whiteroseproductions.com
Web Developer White Rose Productions
http://www.whiteroseproductions.com



From meganwh at prodigy.net  Mon Nov  5 18:42:59 2001
From: meganwh at prodigy.net (Megan Holbrook)
Date: Mon Nov  5 18:42:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
References: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAECEMMCDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>
	 <3BE7345D.4D933842@prodigy.net> <a05100308b80cdc12d16c@[24.20.78.140]>
Message-ID: <3BE74FF8.622FD1A2@prodigy.net>

Ummm...to me, making sure my 100-year old house, whose electrical system
is not *completely* stable yet, doesn't burn down because I overloaded
the circuits...

M.

Gary Pool wrote:
> 
> ><ignorant question>
> >
> >Does running a monitor at 100hz vs. 75hz increase the energy usage of
> >the monitor?
> >
> ></ignorant question>
> 
> What is more important, your eyes or your electric bill?
> 
> --
> Gary Pool
> gary at whiteroseproductions.com
> Web Developer White Rose Productions
> http://www.whiteroseproductions.com
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !

-- 
Megan Holbrook - megan at kapow.com
Partner - Business Development
kapow, inc. (www.kapow.com)

kapow, inc. Milwaukee               kapow, inc. Los Angeles
2405 E. Wyoming Place               2130 Sawtelle Blvd, #302A
Milwaukee, WI 53202                 Los Angeles, CA 90025
T: 414-273-2446 * F: 419-793-6271   T: 310-479-2020 * F: 310-473-3711



From gary at whiteroseproductions.com  Mon Nov  5 18:55:25 2001
From: gary at whiteroseproductions.com (Gary Pool)
Date: Mon Nov  5 18:55:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <3BE74FF8.622FD1A2@prodigy.net>
References: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAECEMMCDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>	
 <3BE7345D.4D933842@prodigy.net> <a05100308b80cdc12d16c@[24.20.78.140]>
 <3BE74FF8.622FD1A2@prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <a0510030bb80ce491d087@[24.20.78.140]>

>Ummm...to me, making sure my 100-year old house, whose electrical system
>is not *completely* stable yet, doesn't burn down because I overloaded
>the circuits...

Do you use a Mac?

They don't create as much heat as a PC.

Therefore create less of a load.

I really doubt if the monitor refresh rate is going to create much of a load.

You can call your local electric company and ask.

-- 
Gary Pool
gary at whiteroseproductions.com
Web Developer White Rose Productions
http://www.whiteroseproductions.com



From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 18:56:18 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Mon Nov  5 18:56:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] ASP (or .NET) Storefront/Cart Recco Request
Message-ID: <20011106005753.40835.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Gang:

I'm looking for a recommendation on an ASP- or .NET-based
storefront/shopping cart application.

If this were Christmas, here's what I'd wish for...

- componentized code, not one GIANT script (like Miva, et al)
- easy skinning and reorganization of UI
- intelligent/intuitive DB structure
- oh yeah... and inexpensive, so I can spend my resources on the
frontend and extending its functionality

I've taken a look at a few like iisCART, Webcortex and Comersus,
but really just am not happy yet.

Thoughts, anyone?

tia

/rg

<tip type="leased servers" author="Robert Goodyear">
Once when applying ADC container permissions on a leased server
at DellHost, I completely locked myself (Admin!) out of the
system. Thank goodness the system was partitioned with the OS on
a small section, disk images on another, and live data on yet
another... after Dell reimaged the OS for me, I was able to (a)
reinstall apps without spending all night uploading new disk
images and (b) repoint the apps to my existing --and untouched--
data. I was back up within the day.
</tip>



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From woloski at sion.com  Mon Nov  5 20:21:52 2001
From: woloski at sion.com (Matias Woloski)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:21:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
Message-ID: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNGEKJCMAA.woloski@sion.com>

hi! I'm working with IE 5.5 and wanted to do this

div1.appendChild div2.removeNode(true)

This will remove the div2 with all its children (removeNode boolean
parameter in true). This returns the element removed, so I append it to the
div1. But when the appendchild executes, IE raises this error

	"Unexpected call to method or property access"

This is the html

<div id="div1">
</div>

<div id="div2">
<form id=...>
	blah bla
	<input ...
	...
</form>
</div>

Someone knows what is happening? Is there another way to do it?
thanks in advance,
Matias




From evolt at georgedillon.com  Mon Nov  5 20:25:48 2001
From: evolt at georgedillon.com (George Dillon  <> Evolt!)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:25:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache & CGI
References: <20011105113115.E2C75919@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001201c1666a$9092f080$a3c92cc3@athlon800>

> From: "Daniel J. Cody"
> ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "f:\www\mydomain.com\cgi-bin\"
> That should get you what you want :)
> Shout if it doesn't..

It do, but can I shout anyway... AAARRGGH!

I can now execute scripts in that cgi-bin, but I can't get them to reference
anything useful.

I've already posted the code that's bugging me, (and djc - I plugged your
bad bots article in the appended tip see 'Apache + ActivePerl CGI not
working locally etc.') I can run simple CGIs (I can happily print %ENV e.g.)
but I can't run any commands or read/write to files.

Can't even get the date!

I've been scouring all sorts of help docs and FAQs, but I do find the Apache
docs are written from the POV of someone who already knows all the answers,
and I don't get it.

Is my problem one of permissions, paths, modules, syntax or plain stupidity
or what?

TIA

George




From squid_66 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 20:32:41 2001
From: squid_66 at yahoo.com (J J)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:32:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <018e01c1660e$c5beddc0$a41f88d8@ns2>
Message-ID: <20011106023411.30002.qmail@web10102.mail.yahoo.com>

Wow, this is incredible.  My right eyelid started
doing this a week or so ago... talk about timing.

thank you!  my rate was at 60hz so I've just changed
it.

Amazing what you learn on these lists!  :)


--- Jon Hall <jonhall at ozline.net> wrote:
> My first tip. Hope I get this right....I feel sorta
> like Brittney Spears.
> ;-)
> 
> For the last week or so my left eyelid had started
> doing this weird spastic
> twitching thing. It didn't really bug me at first,
> but after a while it got
> quite old. Last night I mentioned it to my health
> nut girlfriend and she did
> a little research and found the most common cause is
> starting at a computer
> monitor too long. The second she told me I went and
> looked at my monitor
> refresh rate, and somehow it had gotten set back to
> 60 Hz. I switched it
> back to 75 Hz and voila. The twitching went away
> immediately, and hasn't
> returned.
> 
> <tip type="ergonomics">
> If you spend a lot of time in front of a computer
> screen, especially with
> fluorescent lights overhead and have never changed
> the default Windows
> monitor refresh rate, your eyes are working way to
> hard. You may notice
> headaches, or in my case, an eyeball twitching
> uncontrollably. While 60 Hz
> is the Windows default. The best setting for your
> eyes (and eyelids) is
> 75hz.
> 
> To change your refresh rate:
> Right Click on your desktop. Click Properties.
> Select the Settings tab.
> Click the Advanced button.
> Select the Monitor tab.
> Select 75 Hz from the dropdown and click Apply.
> 
> If you are reading this, do it now! Even if you have
> done this in the past,
> check it. Windows will reset to 60Hz for quite a few
> reasons. Your eyelids
> will thank you.
> </tip>
> 
> jon
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From kkearns at cisco.com  Mon Nov  5 20:46:40 2001
From: kkearns at cisco.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:46:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good editor for the PC
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011105183934.01d21f08@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

Hey folks,

I'm looking for a good, free editor for a PC (Windows 2000).  I'm used to 
BBEdit, but I don't have a Mac at work. ;>

I need to work on XML (lots of DTDs), XSLT, a bit of HTML, and maybe some 
perl or javascript or similar languages.

If there's anyone out there who understands why BBEdit is the best editor 
ever and happens to know something that's similar for the PC.. please let 
me know. :)

Thanks,

-Katie




From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Nov  5 20:50:09 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:50:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site check please
Message-ID: <001301c1666f$224f2620$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

Hello fellow list members,

First all let me thank all of you who made suggestions on this site the
first time around. Your tips and advice were very much appreciated and now
it's time for another check. I think I'm pretty much done with the site with
exception of the normal changes that will be made periodically. The site is
http://www.calvarylargo.org

Thanks,
Bob

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01





From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Mon Nov  5 20:52:48 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Mon Nov  5 20:52:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
In-Reply-To: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNGEKJCMAA.woloski@sion.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNMEPMEMAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

appendChild is working for me with removed nodes:

http://members.evolt.org/lindsay/append_remove_child.html

IE5.5 SP2, NT4

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au




From joshua at alphashop.net  Mon Nov  5 21:01:26 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:01:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] MS Index Server
Message-ID: <015f01c16670$c1466170$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

I'm trying to familiarize myself with MS Indexing Server and I have a
question.  I created a new catalog, and when I examined the directories in
it, there were not any.  So, I created one.  But, it was missing the globe
icon on the folder.  In every other catalog there is one folder that has the
globe and cannot be deleted.  But this time, there is no folder with a
globe, and for some reason the catalog does not seem to work.  Does anybody
know what's going on?

TIA,

-joshua




From seyon at delime.com  Mon Nov  5 21:09:17 2001
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:09:17 2001
Subject: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist] admin:
  late posts)
In-Reply-To: <3BE71717.5010003@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>

At 11/5/2001 04:47 PM, you wrote:
>Hola folks -
>
>You may notice some emails dated from the past couple days just now 
>entering your inboxes.

Aha, that explains it... I found it was a bit quiet, even for the weekend.

><tip type="easy apache password protection">
>
>If you've got an Apache server and want a quick and easy way to password 
>protect certain directories, add the following to an .htaccess file in teh 
>directory you want to protect:

I've got a question about this. We did just this a couple years back, but 
now we've got a situation where we do not have some of the passwords any 
more - case of changing personnel. Is there a way to disable/remove these 
passwords, without knowing what they are?

Thanks



From morbus at disobey.com  Mon Nov  5 21:13:33 2001
From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:13:33 2001
Subject: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist] admin:  
 late posts)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <p05101006b80d061d052a@[63.173.138.112]>

>>If you've got an Apache server and want a quick and easy way to password
>>protect certain directories, add the following to an .htaccess file in teh
>>directory you want to protect:
>
>I've got a question about this. We did just this a couple years back, but
>now we've got a situation where we do not have some of the passwords any
>more - case of changing personnel. Is there a way to disable/remove these
>passwords, without knowing what they are?

Yup. Just open up the .htaccess file, find out where the passwords are
being stored (I commonly called them .htpasswd), and then open that file
and remove the lines related to the dead accounts.

-- 
Morbus Iff ( i am your scary godmother )
http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/
please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus



From andrew at thepander.co.nz  Mon Nov  5 21:18:32 2001
From: andrew at thepander.co.nz (Andrew Forsberg)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:18:32 2001
Subject: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist] admin:  
 late posts)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <p0510030fb80d0672c230@[192.168.1.1]>

>I've got a question about this. We did just this a couple years 
>back, but now we've got a situation where we do not have some of the 
>passwords any more - case of changing personnel. Is there a way to 
>disable/remove these passwords, without knowing what they are?

If you just want to remove the user/pass, just delete the line from 
the .htpasswd file.

If you want to replace a forgotten password for a user, replace the 
old encrypted password (everything after the ':') with a new 
encrypted password (all case sensitive, btw).


-- 
Andrew Forsberg
---
uberNET - http://uber.net.nz/
the pander - http://thepander.co.nz/



From emagin at onebox.com  Mon Nov  5 21:46:19 2001
From: emagin at onebox.com (Ed)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:46:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
In-Reply-To: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFKEBGDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>

 : martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com
 : Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:49 PM
 : Absolutely this discussion belongs here - it's about working
 : in this medium, right?
  : So it belongs here.

 I agree, I hope it's ok to keep talking about this here. The one thing that
bugs me the most is when developers forget the end-user and wig out on
insanely cool code that confuses the hell out of the client or audience,
etc.

<rant>
I would like to ask that we make an effort to decrease bandwidth usage and
only quote the info which is relevant, or we'll help clog the internet and
make it more expensive for everyone. [name/email, date, forget subject, it's
in the header already]
</rant>




From woloski at sion.com  Mon Nov  5 21:47:32 2001
From: woloski at sion.com (Matias Woloski)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:47:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNMEPMEMAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>
Message-ID: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNIEKLCMAA.woloski@sion.com>

thanks lindsay, I keep getting an error. It seems to be simple, but there
must be something in the html the browser doesn't like.
It's really strange, if I raise an alert inmediatly after the remove, the
error doesn't raise.
The content is removed. It works ok, but it raises that error!

Do you have any idea how to solve it? maybe using something like an alert
but without showing it to the user (i don't know how)?

thanks again
Matias


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Lindsay Evans
Sent: lunes, 05 de noviembre de 2001 23:54
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] appendchild problem



appendChild is working for me with removed nodes:

http://members.evolt.org/lindsay/append_remove_child.html

IE5.5 SP2, NT4

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From beau at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov  5 21:49:09 2001
From: beau at members.evolt.org (Beau Hartshorne)
Date: Mon Nov  5 21:49:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good editor for the PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011105183934.01d21f08@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <001901c16676$36747360$0e3d4d18@Dell8100>

HTML-kit is pretty good (free, for now).
TextPad is also pretty good (shareware).

Try http://www.download.com to find these.

Nothing is as good as BBEdit. Write BareBones, ask them to port it to
the PC. I did, and they actually replied -- they kind of gave me the
impression that if enough people asked for it, they might actually port
it over to Windows...

sales at barebones.com

Oh, and don't worry -- there are lots of us out here who understand why
BBEdit is the best editor ever.

Cheers,

Beau

> If there's anyone out there who understands why BBEdit is the 
> best editor 
> ever and happens to know something that's similar for the 
> PC.. please let 
> me know. :)




From woloski at sion.com  Mon Nov  5 22:00:38 2001
From: woloski at sion.com (Matias Woloski)
Date: Mon Nov  5 22:00:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
In-Reply-To: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNIEKLCMAA.woloski@sion.com>
Message-ID: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNEEKMCMAA.woloski@sion.com>

Something I didn't mention was that the web application is running under an
HTML Application (hta). I've recently tried to run the same page but this
time under the browser and I'm not getting the error. Maybe it's something
related to the HTA context. I will have to do some research at msdn...
thanks,
Matias

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matias Woloski
Sent: martes, 06 de noviembre de 2001 0:52
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] appendchild problem


thanks lindsay, I keep getting an error. It seems to be simple, but there
must be something in the html the browser doesn't like.
It's really strange, if I raise an alert inmediatly after the remove, the
error doesn't raise.
The content is removed. It works ok, but it raises that error!

Do you have any idea how to solve it? maybe using something like an alert
but without showing it to the user (i don't know how)?

thanks again
Matias


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Lindsay Evans
Sent: lunes, 05 de noviembre de 2001 23:54
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] appendchild problem



appendChild is working for me with removed nodes:

http://members.evolt.org/lindsay/append_remove_child.html

IE5.5 SP2, NT4

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 22:02:28 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Mon Nov  5 22:02:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good editor for the PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011105183934.01d21f08@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <20011106040401.33486.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

BBEdit user here: but when on my PC, UltraEdit32 is quite nice,
allows for syntax highlighting and pretty decent FTP management.
Also supports Tidy HTML, which when used with a customized config
file is a great timesaver. (e.g.: I *still* can't remember to
write my <BR> tags like <br /> yet, but Tidy fixes all that in a
snap.

http://www.ultraedit.com

hth

/rg
--- Katie Kearns <kkearns at cisco.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm looking for a good, free editor for a PC (Windows 2000). 
> I'm used to 
> BBEdit, but I don't have a Mac at work. ;>
> 
> I need to work on XML (lots of DTDs), XSLT, a bit of HTML, and
> maybe some 
> perl or javascript or similar languages.
> 
> If there's anyone out there who understands why BBEdit is the
> best editor 
> ever and happens to know something that's similar for the PC..
> please let 
> me know. :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Katie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Mon Nov  5 22:04:49 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Mon Nov  5 22:04:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
In-Reply-To: <BBEJKGIELKMFIMGJKDMNIEKLCMAA.woloski@sion.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNEEACENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

> The content is removed. It works ok, but it raises that error!

Weird, I'm not getting any errors at all... what version of IE are you
running?

> Do you have any idea how to solve it? maybe using something like an alert
> but without showing it to the user (i don't know how)?

Theres probably something you could do with a setTimeout, I think I've
solved a similar sort of problem (with IE4) that way before. I'll see if I
can dig up the code.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au
>
> Do you have any idea how to solve it? maybe using something like an alert
> but without showing it to the user (i don't know how)?
>




From m_d_hall at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  5 22:45:21 2001
From: m_d_hall at hotmail.com (Michael Hall)
Date: Mon Nov  5 22:45:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Different link attributes with css
Message-ID: <F122SgcOrBLSAQV6uPD0001cf0a@hotmail.com>

I have a menu on a page and I'd like to have the links menu links green 
till, and hover red. While I want to links on the rest of the page to bee 
red and hover green. The only way i've found that works if if I put some 
thing like
a.classname:hover{color:red}
but this requiresthat I put the class statment in each link, I'd like to 
beable to just have the div that makes up the menu have something in its 
class.

Thanks
-Mike

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From mark.cheng at ranger.com.au  Mon Nov  5 23:34:26 2001
From: mark.cheng at ranger.com.au (Mark Cheng)
Date: Mon Nov  5 23:34:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Different link attributes with css
In-Reply-To: <F122SgcOrBLSAQV6uPD0001cf0a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLHBCELHIICJKLEFNKEGDEEAA.mark.cheng@ranger.com.au>

Mike,

> but this requiresthat I put the class statment in each link, I'd like to 
> beable to just have the div that makes up the menu have something in its 
> class.

If you have a div named say div1, try this:

#div1 a:link {style declaration}
#div1 a:hover {style declaration}

the specificity rules will apply these rules to the links in Div1 only.

hth

MarkC


> 

This email may be confidential and contain commercially sensitive information.  Only the intended recipient may access or use it.  If you are not the intended recipient please delete this email and notify us promptly. 
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From zamba at zamba.com  Tue Nov  6 01:15:45 2001
From: zamba at zamba.com (Tony Page)
Date: Tue Nov  6 01:15:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] What is this link usage and advantage?
Message-ID: <000301c16693$bd968af0$6401a8c0@dell>

This may be obvious to some of you, but I recently came across a site
using links like this (check left hand menu):
http://www.sportsmed.com.au/sportsmed/about_us.html?page_id=2

What are they doing and what advantages does it bring? Is this a
database reference or something to do with findObject?

Tony

      [ZambaGrafix]
   <websites that work>
tel: +61 2 9953 4425
fax: +61 2 9909 8534
email: ajp at zambagrafix.com
http://www.zambagrafix.com 




From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Tue Nov  6 01:40:30 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Tue Nov  6 01:40:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] What is this link usage and advantage?
In-Reply-To: <000301c16693$bd968af0$6401a8c0@dell>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNCEAIENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

> What are they doing and what advantages does it bring? Is this a
> database reference or something to do with findObject?

at a guess I'd say that they have just mapped .html to whatever server side
scripting language they are using, and page_id is just an id for whatever
content they want displayed

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au




From sfmalo at msn.com  Tue Nov  6 02:18:40 2001
From: sfmalo at msn.com (sfmalo)
Date: Tue Nov  6 02:18:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good editor for the PC
References: <001901c16676$36747360$0e3d4d18@Dell8100>
Message-ID: <00aa01c1669b$47c45de0$be29193f@oemcomputer>

I just emailed barebones. Will let you all know what their reply is.

I use HTML-Kit primarily to check coding. Am so used to EditPlus but am really curious about BBEdit.

Sharon
PC-ite

From: "Beau Hartshorne" <beau at members.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:50 PM

> HTML-kit is pretty good (free, for now).
> TextPad is also pretty good (shareware).
> 
> Try http://www.download.com to find these.
> 
> Nothing is as good as BBEdit. Write BareBones, ask them to port it to
> the PC. I did, and they actually replied -- they kind of gave me the
> impression that if enough people asked for it, they might actually port
> it over to Windows...
> 
> sales at barebones.com
> 
> Oh, and don't worry -- there are lots of us out here who understand why
> BBEdit is the best editor ever.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Beau
> 
> > If there's anyone out there who understands why BBEdit is the 
> > best editor 
> > ever and happens to know something that's similar for the 
> > PC.. please let 
> > me know. :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com
 




From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  6 02:44:34 2001
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Tue Nov  6 02:44:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] appendchild problem
Message-ID: <LAW2-F10PqAJjsyG3rd00022ad2@hotmail.com>

>hi! I'm working with IE 5.5 and wanted to do this
>
>div1.appendChild div2.removeNode(true)

In any case it should be

div1.appendChild(div2.removeNode(true))

However:

1) removeNode is MS proprietary, instead you should do

div2.parentNode.removeChild(div2)

2) it isn't necessary to remove a node before appending it. If you do

div1.appendChild(div2)

it works fine: the node is removed from its erstwhile position and appended 
to the new position.
For more info on all these methods and properties, see the W3C DOM 
Compatibility Table: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?version5.html

ppk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From nsg_chong at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  6 03:11:09 2001
From: nsg_chong at hotmail.com (jelle desramaults)
Date: Tue Nov  6 03:11:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
Message-ID: <OE713wSimD3JkUwWpSW0000502a@hotmail.com>

Dear list,

my boss' site :

http://www.shiatsu.be/pages/therapeuten/therapeuten.html
The list of therapists on that page has been stolen by another site...

Is this legal ? i'm afraid it is because he hasn't got a disclaimer or legal
notice on his site. Even if he had one, personally, I think it would still
be legal, altough a good notice would scare away potential thieves (a
bit)...

To (at least have done SOMETHING to) prevent this from happening again, i
would like to ask if any of you know where he can find a template
legal/copyright notice (preferably in Dutch).

thx,

Jelle Desramaults
www.sitekick.be


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From lisa at koolfish.com  Tue Nov  6 03:43:11 2001
From: lisa at koolfish.com (Lisa Frost)
Date: Tue Nov  6 03:43:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: are your eyelids twitching?
Message-ID: <000001c166a5$eb5ea550$3800a8c0@canthainet.com>

On my laptop there is only one choice of  60 hz, why would this be that
I don't have the choice to change it?
Brand new laptop running windows 2000

Thanks

Lisa




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Tue Nov  6 03:43:26 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Tue Nov  6 03:43:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Tip Time
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105163550.009ee8b0@smtp.nbnet.nb.ca>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEABCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

Rob,
	not been able to figure out how to change the colours of the borders
either - the only way ive been able to change the look and feel of drop
downs are by making them in dhtml - but i find it more hassle than its
worth - changing the font colour and background colour gives a nice effect -
just waiting for CSS to let you have full control over scrollbar colours,
the highlight colour etc..

cheers

paul

an old tip - but as we're on the subject

<tip type="dropdown menu">
To colour each individual item in a dropdown menu try this:

<select>
<option style="background-color: rgb(252,205,208);">heres one</option>
<option style="background-color: rgb(252,205,208);">heres another
one</option>
<option style="background-color: rgb(252,205,208);">and another one</option>
</select>

to have the same colour through out the dropdown menu try:

<select style="background-color: rgb(153,153,102);">
<option>1</option>
<option>2</option>
<option>3</option>
</select>

or in the CSS try:

select.general{
	font-family: verdana;
	font-size: 10px;
	color: 000000;
	border-style: FFFFFF;
	border: 1px #FFFFFF solid;
	border-color: FFFFFF;
	background-color: FFFFFF;
	height: 20px;
}

</tip>

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Rob Oviatt
Sent: 05 November 2001 20:38
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Tip Time


Thanks for the tip, Paul.  Any idea on how to do this using <select>? I've
never been able to figure out how to change the border colors of the box.

Rob Oviatt

At 05:27 PM 11/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Tip time
>
><tip type="styling input fields">
>In your styling try this for nice effects:
>
>input.general{
>         font-family: arial;
>         font-size: 12px;
>         color: 000000;
>         background: transparent;
>         border-width: 1px;
>         border-style: solid;
>         border-color: FF9900;"
>}
></tip>
>
>cheers
>
>Paul Backhouse
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From kernel at esatclear.ie  Tue Nov  6 04:28:02 2001
From: kernel at esatclear.ie (Ross Lynch)
Date: Tue Nov  6 04:28:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: are your eyelids twitching?
In-Reply-To: <000001c166a5$eb5ea550$3800a8c0@canthainet.com>
Message-ID: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJMECNCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>

> On my laptop there is only one choice of
> 60 hz, why would this be that
> I don't have the choice to change it?
> Brand new laptop running windows 2000

Laptop screens are different, Lisa. For a start,
they don't cause as much strain on the eye, so 60Hz
is fairly acceptable.

 -Ross

____________________________________________________
ross lynch  | me at rosslynch.com  | +353 (0)87 9683368
____________________________________________________
Nicht auf dem Teppich, Mann!





From zamba at zamba.com  Tue Nov  6 04:44:43 2001
From: zamba at zamba.com (Tony Page)
Date: Tue Nov  6 04:44:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] What is this link usage and advantage?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNCEAIENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>
Message-ID: <000a01c166b1$02b97e40$6401a8c0@dell>

Thanks, Lindsay. Given the site content, I'm unclear why they've adopted
this approach, what advantage could it have? Seems overcomplicated to
me, as the content seems quite static.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----

> >http://www.sportsmed.com.au/sportsmed/about_us.html?page_id=2
> > What are they doing and what advantages does it bring? Is this a 
> > database reference or something to do with findObject?
> 
> at a guess I'd say that they have just mapped .html to 
> whatever server side scripting language they are using, and 
> page_id is just an id for whatever content they want displayed
> 
> --
>  Lindsay Evans.
>  Developer,
>  Red Square Productions.




From me at cgiguy.com  Tue Nov  6 05:12:48 2001
From: me at cgiguy.com (me)
Date: Tue Nov  6 05:12:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
References: <OE713wSimD3JkUwWpSW0000502a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010f01c166bc$d2b8dd60$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>

content?

who needs to steal a listing of dutch therapists?
are they not listed in a dutch phone book?
is there like some kind of black market for this info?

oops. bad news. i stole a copy for myself.
shoot me. oooooh. took one in the heart.
i'm goin down.  tell mama i'm a comin home..

welcome to the real world...
on the web a copyright notice is nothing more than
an open invitation to a data thief.  and password protection
is actually a bit like foreplay when ya get right down to it.
that may sound a bit rude, but its just reality.

so deal with it.

and for those of you that are in need of a dutch therapist,
may god help you.

me.


----- Original Message -----
From: jelle desramaults <nsg_chong at hotmail.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:16 AM
Subject: [thelist] stolen content


> Dear list,
>
> my boss' site :
>
> http://www.shiatsu.be/pages/therapeuten/therapeuten.html
> The list of therapists on that page has been stolen by another site...
>
> Is this legal ? i'm afraid it is because he hasn't got a disclaimer or
legal
> notice on his site. Even if he had one, personally, I think it would still
> be legal, altough a good notice would scare away potential thieves (a
> bit)...
>
> To (at least have done SOMETHING to) prevent this from happening again, i
> would like to ask if any of you know where he can find a template
> legal/copyright notice (preferably in Dutch).
>
> thx,
>
> Jelle Desramaults
> www.sitekick.be
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 1/11/01
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From chrism at puffofsmoke.net  Tue Nov  6 05:42:52 2001
From: chrism at puffofsmoke.net (The Optimizer)
Date: Tue Nov  6 05:42:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
In-Reply-To: <010f01c166bc$d2b8dd60$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>
Message-ID: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBKECMCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>

[..]
> welcome to the real world...
> on the web a copyright notice is nothing more than
> an open invitation to a data thief.

It's actually merely an explicit statement of your automatic rights.

> and password protection
> is actually a bit like foreplay when ya get right down to it.

Well, like anything else if done incorrectly it can be circumvented or
broken. Why would you liken this to foreplay? ;)

> that may sound a bit rude, but its just reality.
>
> so deal with it.

One way to deal with it would be to sue the thief if in fact a law (civil or
otherwise) had been broken. Hence the question, I would guess.

> and for those of you that are in need of a dutch therapist,
> may god help you.

A Dutch national, perhaps?

Regards

Chris Marsh




From navin_dhanuka at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  6 05:57:19 2001
From: navin_dhanuka at yahoo.com (Navin Dhanuka)
Date: Tue Nov  6 05:57:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] ::Apache Configuration Problem::
Message-ID: <003e01c166b9$d0535670$1c00005a@redhat>

Hi,

My machine is on a network. My Internal IP is 90.0.0.28, whereas the IP of
the server is 90.0.0.1
I want to enable http server in my machine.
My external IP as given by whatismyip.com is "202.87.32.242"

I have changed in apache the following line.
Listen 202.87.32.242:80

When apache is restarted in windows 2k it says Apache stopped unexpectedly.

What is the problem & How should I solve it?
Any info will be helpful.
Thanks in advance.

Navin Dhaunka



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From genghis at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov  6 06:03:33 2001
From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar)
Date: Tue Nov  6 06:03:33 2001
Subject: [thelist] ::Apache Configuration Problem::
In-Reply-To: <003e01c166b9$d0535670$1c00005a@redhat>
Message-ID: <EKECLALLPEHGEHLPBJBNMEJACFAA.genghis@members.evolt.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Navin Dhanuka
> Sent: 06 November 2001 11:55
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] ::Apache Configuration Problem::
>
>
> Hi,
>
> My machine is on a network. My Internal IP is 90.0.0.28, whereas the IP of
> the server is 90.0.0.1
> I want to enable http server in my machine.
> My external IP as given by whatismyip.com is "202.87.32.242"
>
> I have changed in apache the following line.
> Listen 202.87.32.242:80
>
> When apache is restarted in windows 2k it says Apache stopped
> unexpectedly.

Got IIS running?  It installs by default.  Look for
IIS Admin Service under Start/Admin Tools/Services
and stop it - it'll bring down FTP, WWW and SMTP with
it.

------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

T +44 20 7209 4117       M +44 7930 681789
F +44 870 169 7657   E john at userfrenzy.com
------------------------------------------




From evolt at georgedillon.com  Tue Nov  6 06:22:36 2001
From: evolt at georgedillon.com (George Dillon  <> Evolt!)
Date: Tue Nov  6 06:22:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache ... configuration problem
References: <20011105170800.3B82851FD6@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001401c166bd$f1627c20$42c82cc3@athlon800>

----- Original Message -----
> Subject: [thelist] Apache + ActivePerl CGI not working locally etc.
> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:04:32 -0000

I've fixed the path problem... so now I can open/read/write files (solution
below).

But I still can't get date to work in the lines:

   $date_command="/bin/date"; # STILL NOT WORKING
   $logdate= `date +"%Y%m.log"`; # STILL NOT WORKING
   $getdate = `date +"%d/%b/%Y:%T"`;  # STILL NOT WORKING

And the flock line throws up this error:

  flock() unimplemented on this platform at f:\HOME\etc.

I thought these would be standard functions within Apache, but obviously
not.  Does this mean these are extras (modules ?) and I have to do something
more to install them and/or tell Apache (or to get Apache to tell my CGI
script) where to find them?

If so what do I do?

The above script causes Perl to go into some sort of endless loop, and it
won't shut-down whatever I do (i.e. CTRL+ALT+DEL fails and a number of
taskmanager's kill utilities also fail).  Result - I can only shut down
Win98 using the reset button - nasty!

What's Perl trying to do and is there a way to kill Perl once it does this,
or is there a magic-bullet line of script to prevent such a fatal error (I'm
already using "use CGI::Carp qw(fatalsToBrowser);" and it's not working!)?

TIA

George Dillon



BTW...  For Peter Kaulback ;) or anyone else who's interested here's the
solution to my paths problem...

By simplifying the script to simply create a file
> $log_file = "/findme.log";
and then running a search for 'findme.log' I found that the file had been
created in the DISK root (i.e. f:/)

So to get the line to work as I wanted it ( i.e. $log_file =
"/home/myusername/public_html/mylogs/hits$logdate";
)  I had to move my local site from "F:/WWW/georgedillon.test/" to
"F:/home/myusername/public_html/" (at the same time moving the cgi-bin up a
level) and then change my http.conf to read:

  DocumentRoot "F:/home"
  ...
  NameVirtualHost testsite
  <VirtualHost 127.0.0.4>
  DocumentRoot "F:/home/myusername/public_html"
  ServerName testsite
  ErrorLog "F:/home/myusername/public_html/logs/error.log"
  ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "F:/home/myusername/cgi-bin/"
  </VirtualHost>

  <Directory "F:/home/myusername/cgi-bin">
      Options +ExecCGI
  </Directory>





From list-matt at reprocessed.org  Tue Nov  6 06:36:36 2001
From: list-matt at reprocessed.org (Matt Patterson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 06:36:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
In-Reply-To: <OE713wSimD3JkUwWpSW0000502a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011106123314-r01010800-aded28b8-0921-0108@10.0.0.15>

On 6/11/01 at 10:16 am, nsg_chong at hotmail.com (jelle desramaults) wrote:

> Is this legal ? i'm afraid it is because he hasn't got a disclaimer or legal
> notice on his site. Even if he had one, personally, I think it would still
> be legal, altough a good notice would scare away potential thieves (a
> bit)...
> 
> To (at least have done SOMETHING to) prevent this from happening again, i
> would like to ask if any of you know where he can find a template
> legal/copyright notice (preferably in Dutch).

>From what little i know of European copyright law (that is, I think it's similar
to UK laws and I'm guessing based on that) you don't need a copyright assertion
to copyright something. Publishing it is enough, so stealing copy from a page
without a copyright notice is still illegal. However, if the page is, as it
appears to be, a list of people registered with an organisation, then it seems
likely that someone could get the information from somewhere other than your
site, and the sensible ordering you've used is likely to be the sensible
ordering they've used... Even if they've nicked it from you, it's a list of
(private?) practictioners who provide a service, so reproducing it elsewhere
could be considered as a) free advertising for the BSF members or b) fair use,
i.e. making information about registered Shiatsu practictioners available to
people who want to be Shiatsued by them.

Anyway, the central point is that publication itself is an assertion of
copyright, at least in England it is.

Matt


-- 
   Matt Patterson | Typographer
   <matt at reprocessed.org> | http://reprocessed.org/



From roland at nykris.com  Tue Nov  6 07:11:26 2001
From: roland at nykris.com (roland dunn)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:11:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE Still Flashing.
Message-ID: <ADEILPPEJKHGEDELEDDLIENPCMAA.roland@nykris.com>

A couple of days I ago, I posted the following email:

"
I'm working on a kiosk project for a museum where people will use touch
screens, and will be presented information via an IE browser. So, people
will essentially be viewing web pages held locally on that kiosk, so no
remote access at all - instant (or near-instant) loading of pages.

FYI: if you run Internet Explorer by typing "iexplore.exe -k
www.dilbert.com" you get Interner Explorer in "kiosk" mode.

Currently we're finding that in this setup when users flip between pages the
screen momentarily goes white - which as you can imagine really isn't great.

Anyone got any ideas of how to prevent this happening?
"

A few people kindly replied, suggesting we look at
http://www.webdevelopersjournal.com/wacky/transitions/transitions.html,
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/beyond/hta.html, and the use of <body
style="overflow: hidden">.

We've tried all these things, and the pages still flash. I guess all we want
to do is simply tell IE to not display a page until it has loaded all
elements of it, i.e. until it has cached it all; and not to flash.

Has anyone got any more thoughts?
Thanks, Roland.




_______________________________

NYKRIS

T: +44 [0]20 7250 1650
D: +44 [0]20 7749 9333
F: +44 [0]20 7729 8188
E: roland at nykris.com
http://www.nykris.com

148 Curtain Road
Shoreditch
London UK
EC2A 3AT

Digital passion that delivers

_______________________________






From steve.cook at evitbe.com  Tue Nov  6 07:17:19 2001
From: steve.cook at evitbe.com (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:17:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5213AC76@SBS>

What Matt says strikes me as being right. It's like when I started
WapWarp.com, I noticed bots crawling the content from rival search engines.
There's not much one can do about the actual list of links, but if there are
hand-written descriptions for instance (i.e. original content) then there's
a chance to defend your own work.

(IANAL disclaimer)

.steve

----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------



From seb at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov  6 07:18:40 2001
From: seb at members.evolt.org (Seb)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:18:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
In-Reply-To: <OE713wSimD3JkUwWpSW0000502a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011106131529.00a6ea78@members.evolt.org>

>http://www.shiatsu.be/pages/therapeuten/therapeuten.html
>The list of therapists on that page has been stolen by another site...
>
>Is this legal ? i'm afraid it is because he hasn't got a disclaimer or legal
>notice on his site. Even if he had one, personally, I think it would still
>be legal, altough a good notice would scare away potential thieves (a
>bit)...

Hi Jelle,

Copyright is intended to protect creative works, not publicly available 
factual information, so yes, copying the list from your boss's site is 
probably legal. (Assuming that the information could feasibly be compiled 
from other sources, etc.)

If your HTML code, presentation, and other text has been directly copied, 
then you could ask the person that has copied it to change it. However, you 
are unlikely to be able to ask them to remove the information, only the 
copied presentation.

Seb.




From adn at clara.net  Tue Nov  6 07:48:05 2001
From: adn at clara.net (Arthur Noel)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:48:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache ... configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <001401c166bd$f1627c20$42c82cc3@athlon800>
Message-ID: <000d01c166c9$f30d9da0$0300000a@arthursjkd4owm>

> But I still can't get date to work in the lines:
> 
>    $date_command="/bin/date"; # STILL NOT WORKING
>    $logdate= `date +"%Y%m.log"`; # STILL NOT WORKING
>    $getdate = `date +"%d/%b/%Y:%T"`;  # STILL NOT WORKING

That's because of the /bin/date command - this is for *nix.




From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Tue Nov  6 07:50:00 2001
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:50:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE Still Flashing.
References: <ADEILPPEJKHGEDELEDDLIENPCMAA.roland@nykris.com>
Message-ID: <001601c166c0$e2a431d0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
I really don't see how pages can flash if you use transitions. The whole
point of them is that the new page is loaded into memory before it is shown.
Try putting this META tag in the head of each page:

<META HTTP-EQUIV="Page-Enter"
CONTENT = "RevealTrans (Duration=4, Transition=23)">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Page-Exit"
CONTENT = "RevealTrans (Duration=4, Transition=23)">

for more info on the values see:
http://www.bravenet.com/reviews/archives/tips.php?view=46

Cheers,
Richard
www.richardinfo.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "roland dunn" <roland at nykris.com>

> A few people kindly replied, suggesting we look at
> http://www.webdevelopersjournal.com/wacky/transitions/transitions.html,
> http://www.htmlgoodies.com/beyond/hta.html, and the use of <body
> style="overflow: hidden">.
>
> We've tried all these things, and the pages still flash. I guess all we
want
> to do is simply tell IE to not display a page until it has loaded all
> elements of it, i.e. until it has cached it all; and not to flash.





From bruce at heerssen.com  Tue Nov  6 07:55:55 2001
From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen)
Date: Tue Nov  6 07:55:55 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE Still Flashing.
In-Reply-To: <ADEILPPEJKHGEDELEDDLIENPCMAA.roland@nykris.com>
References: <ADEILPPEJKHGEDELEDDLIENPCMAA.roland@nykris.com>
Message-ID: <01110607563700.01572@localhost.localdomain>

On Tuesday 06 November 2001 08:15, roland dunn wrote:
>
> We've tried all these things, and the pages still flash. I guess all we
> want to do is simply tell IE to not display a page until it has loaded all
> elements of it, i.e. until it has cached it all; and not to flash.
>
> Has anyone got any more thoughts?

This is a kiosk, right? Have you tried setting the default background color 
of IE to a similar color used in the page? IIRC, IE's default background 
color (by default install) is white.

This may seem silly, but as long as we're grasping at straw....

-Bruce



From russgri at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov  6 08:01:53 2001
From: russgri at bellsouth.net (Russell Griechen)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:01:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] Different link attributes with css
References: <F122SgcOrBLSAQV6uPD0001cf0a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c166cb$adb99720$95601442@oemcomputer>

The only way i've found that works if if I put some
> thing like
> a.classname:hover{color:red}
> but this requiresthat I put the class statment in each link, I'd like to
> beable to just have the div that makes up the menu have something in its
> class.

Here is a solution...you can assign a class to a div and then wrap the file
in that div:
I have a file named 10alpha.html and I want the links a different
color...green... and size...18px

a:link{font-family: Arial;
    color:#0000dd;font-size:12px;line-height:16px;
    font-weight:800;text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited{font-family: Arial;
    color:#0000dd;font-size:12px;line-height:16px;
    font-weight:800;text-decoration:underline;}
a:hover{font-family: Arial;
    color:#0000dd;background:#fff;font-size:12px;
    font-weight:800; text-decoration:underline;line-height:16px;}
a:active{font-family: Arial;
    color:#FF0000;font-size:12px;line-height:16px;
    font-weight:800;text-decoration:underline;}

.10alpha{border-left:1px solid #0000c8;
    font-family: verdana;
    width:100%;
   vertical-align: middle; text-align: center;}
div.10alpha a:link{
    font-size: 18px; font-weight:600;
    color:green;
    text-decoration:underline;}
div.10alpha a:visited{
    font-size: 18px; font-weight:900;
    color:green;
    text-decoration:underline;}
div.10alpha a:hover{
    font-size: 18px; font-weight:900;
    color:green;background:white;
     text-decoration: underline; }
div.10alpha a:active{
    font-size: 18px; font-weight:900;
    color:#ff0000 ;
    text-decoration:underline}

And in the body of 10alpha.html

<div align="center"class="10alpha" style="position:relative;top:-6px;">
<a href="11links.html#a">A</a>
<a href="11links.html#b">B</a>
<a href="11links.html#c">C</a>
<a href="11links.html#d">D</a>
</div>

Russell Griechen






From russgri at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov  6 08:13:29 2001
From: russgri at bellsouth.net (Russell Griechen)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:13:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011106131529.00a6ea78@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <004c01c166cd$4d0226c0$95601442@oemcomputer>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seb" <seb at members.evolt.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] stolen content

You probably got them from the Phone book or Yellow pages so thanks for
passing them on

Russell Griechen





From mcglynn at flash.net  Tue Nov  6 08:15:21 2001
From: mcglynn at flash.net (Michael McGlynn)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:15:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check Please
References: <004e01c165f3$2bb49dc0$0b8bc540@aptiva> <3BE6C391.1000502@yahoo.ca>
Message-ID: <004b01c166cd$a9f948e0$248bc540@aptiva>

Hi,
Thanks for all the replys! Mea Culpa on not including ALT tags on the
navigational images, I need to do that.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Saila" <crsaila at yahoo.ca>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check Please


> Michael McGlynn wrote:
>
> > Just a quick site check for HTML issues, loading and link integrity.
>
> ...
>  > http://www.microcomplete.com/stage/
>
> (Viewed on Win2K running Moz/0.9.5 and Netscape 4.78)
>
> Nice simple layout, easy to read and move around. You may want to
> consider a jello design given there's no str reason it should be
> anchored on the left.
>
> Strongly suggest you use alt tags for the navigation images (although it
> was nice to see the alternate text nav at the bottom of the pages), and
> the alt for logo on the home page is too long (doesn't display well on
> browsers tested).
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Craig Saila
> ------------------------------------------
> craig at saila.com  :  http://www.saila.com/
> ------------------------------------------
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From webguy at mail.rit.edu  Tue Nov  6 08:30:57 2001
From: webguy at mail.rit.edu (Chris Blessing)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:30:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: are your eyelids twitching?
Message-ID: <HPEGIGLNNNHLBOIKKDLJMEGJCBAA.webguy@mail.rit.edu>

Generally LCD's on laptops are not adjustable simply because most are TFT
active matrix screens and have individual resistors controlling each pixel,
so there's no need to even worry about the refresh rate as you'd never see a
flicker anyhow.

Chris Blessing
webguy at mail.rit.edu
http://www.330i.net




From Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM  Tue Nov  6 08:41:18 2001
From: Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM (Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:41:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
Message-ID: <OF4F72233C.51CB7FA3-ON85256AFC.0050996C@beaerospace.com>

Hello all!
I'm looking for recommendations on a good CSS book.  Simplicity and
degradability are my interests, not a bunch of DHTML stuff that only works
in IE 5 +.  Tips on good web resources also appreciated.

TIA!
-Ron Senykoff




From carole at soulmedia.com  Tue Nov  6 08:44:28 2001
From: carole at soulmedia.com (carole guevin)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:44:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
In-Reply-To: <OF4F72233C.51CB7FA3-ON85256AFC.0050996C@beaerospace.com>
Message-ID: <GAELJDDKGNNBLCOAJKFGMEFEEDAA.carole@soulmedia.com>

check http://netdiver.net in the toolbox area -> scriptware - bunch of sites
and in the -> bookshelves there are css related books too. hth.

.c





From steve.cook at evitbe.com  Tue Nov  6 08:48:39 2001
From: steve.cook at evitbe.com (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:48:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5213AC7A@SBS>

I personally rate the O'Reilly CSS book, which has great info on the basic
principles. It's a little lacking on CSS2 as it hasn't yet been updated, but
I think that once the basics are under the belt it's much easier to get to
grips with the more advanced stuff.

As far as web resources, I never tire of recommending www.richinstyle.com
which has helped me time and time again.

Personally I got into styles by deciding to do a version of my personal site
completely using HTML 4 and styles - with no tables in the layout! Lots of
fun! I used mostly web-based resources and only picked up the O'Reilly book
after I was almost finished. Richinstyle was my main guide along with
examining other people's stylesheets that I liked.

Good luck!

.steve'


----------------------------------
   WapWarp - http://wapwarp.com
 Wap-Dev - http://www.wap-dev.net
 Cookstour - http://cookstour.org
----------------------------------



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM 
> [mailto:Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM]
> Sent: den 6 november 2001 15:43
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all!
> I'm looking for recommendations on a good CSS book.  Simplicity and
> degradability are my interests, not a bunch of DHTML stuff 
> that only works
> in IE 5 +.  Tips on good web resources also appreciated.
> 
> TIA!
> -Ron Senykoff
>
> 



From BILL.BROWN at desertschools.org  Tue Nov  6 08:54:13 2001
From: BILL.BROWN at desertschools.org (BILL BROWN)
Date: Tue Nov  6 08:54:13 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
Message-ID: <sbe79768.024@mail.desertschools.org>

I'm currently knee-deep in Eric Meyer's CSS: The Definitive Guide published by O'Reilly. I have never found a better reference. It is a little--and I mean little--dated, but Eric has several online resources to update the browser references. It starts out with the theoretical aspects of the specification, but then it delves into browser implementations and their quirks--making recommendations where appropriate.

Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565926226/ 

O'Reilly: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/css/ 

Meyer's Site: http://www.meyerweb.com/ 

WebReview's Style Sheet Reference Guide (by Eric Meyer): http://www.webreview.com/style/index.shtml

Bill Brown
Web Developer
Desert Schools Federal Credit Union

>>> Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM 11/6/01 7:42 AM >>>

Hello all!
I'm looking for recommendations on a good CSS book.  Simplicity and
degradability are my interests, not a bunch of DHTML stuff that only works
in IE 5 +.  Tips on good web resources also appreciated.

TIA!
-Ron Senykoff




From steve.cook at evitbe.com  Tue Nov  6 09:05:10 2001
From: steve.cook at evitbe.com (Steve Cook)
Date: Tue Nov  6 09:05:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
Message-ID: <3B55A5A1F233D41183A800D0B74D4D5213AC7C@SBS>

Another great webresource I used was
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/

Who have a library of excellent layouts you can use as a starting point. (I
did!)


------------------------------------------
Steve Cook
web strategist
Evitbe AB
031-15 16 17   031-809 365   0703-13 26 31
steve.cook at evitbe.com       www.evitbe.com
------------------------------------------
 



From ezrasf at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  6 09:44:55 2001
From: ezrasf at yahoo.com (Ezra S F)
Date: Tue Nov  6 09:44:55 2001
Subject: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist] admin:  late posts)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <CKEKKBAACIIJCJDNLDMLGEHDFAAA.ezrasf@yahoo.com>

Marc,

The command to change the password is (assumes apache/bin is in the path)

	% htpasswd <password file> <user name>

The -c flag is used to create the password for new user. 

Ezra S Freelove
Computer Support Spec, Web Services
Valdosta State University            229-333-5974
esfreelo at valdosta.edu               ICQ: 41079071
http://www.valdosta.edu/~esfreelo/ 



-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Marc Seyon
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:08 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist] admin:
late posts)


I've got a question about this. We did just this a couple years back, but 
now we've got a situation where we do not have some of the passwords any 
more - case of changing personnel. Is there a way to disable/remove these 
passwords, without knowing what they are?

Thanks

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com  Tue Nov  6 09:55:49 2001
From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt)
Date: Tue Nov  6 09:55:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
Message-ID: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>

OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)


thanks,

Matt




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Tue Nov  6 10:03:41 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:03:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHGEAICIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

hmm..matt, that is quite a challenge, is it possible for you to use it as a
background image on the body tag prehaps? then if possible make the curvre
transparent and basically change the color of the background, i feel this is
an easier way around it.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: 06 November 2001 15:58
To: evolt
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)


OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)


thanks,

Matt


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From bread_man at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  6 10:04:18 2001
From: bread_man at hotmail.com (bread_man)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:04:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good editor for the PC
References: <001901c16676$36747360$0e3d4d18@Dell8100>
Message-ID: <OE61iRpSwc64pOML6BM0000d239@hotmail.com>

EditPlus has been my editor for 2 years now.  Great FTP, search and replace,
spell check, code color, etc.  You can get the full trial version for free
for 30 days, and then the cost to buy is very low.

http://www.editplus.com

> > If there's anyone out there who understands why BBEdit is the
> > best editor
> > ever and happens to know something that's similar for the
> > PC.. please let
> > me know. :)




From bobd at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov  6 10:11:24 2001
From: bobd at members.evolt.org (Bob Davis)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:11:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
References: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <a05101004b80dbc0b2995@[192.168.123.123]>

At 10:57 AM -0500 11/6/01, you wrote:


>OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
>ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
>mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
>table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
>curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
>it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)

you could make a transparent gif that has the part that you want to 
change transparent and change the background color of that cell.

You just fill in the "negative" space with the color you want to 
remain the same.

Does that make sense? You'd still be slicing images, but you'd be 
creating a negative image of sorts.

bob

-- 
bob davis
bobd at members.evolt.org
http://www.bobdavis.org/



From adam at hallinteractive.com  Tue Nov  6 10:12:16 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:12:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS References
In-Reply-To: <6620838925.20011015000631@4serendipity.com>
Message-ID: <B80D7673.4F56%adam@hallinteractive.com>

hello my list friends.
A while ago someone posted a link to the bigass W3C recommended style sheet.
You know the one I'm talking about?
It wasn't the spec itself, it was an actual example of a style sheet.
anyone got that? or at least ESP so you know what I'm talking about?
Curse this brutal memory!




From MMcAtee at philamuseum.org  Tue Nov  6 10:12:48 2001
From: MMcAtee at philamuseum.org (McAtee, Malcolm)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:12:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
Message-ID: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC741333E49CA@MAILHOST>

whta about a table full of 1 pixel cells....

//---------------//
Malcolm J. Mcatee
Web Designer
Philadelphia Museum of Art
215-684-7748
mmcatee at philamuseum.org
//---------------//

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Davis [mailto:bobd at members.evolt.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:13 AM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)


At 10:57 AM -0500 11/6/01, you wrote:


>OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
>ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
>mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
>table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
>curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
>it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)

you could make a transparent gif that has the part that you want to 
change transparent and change the background color of that cell.

You just fill in the "negative" space with the color you want to 
remain the same.

Does that make sense? You'd still be slicing images, but you'd be 
creating a negative image of sorts.

bob

-- 
bob davis
bobd at members.evolt.org
http://www.bobdavis.org/

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From joshua at alphashop.net  Tue Nov  6 10:19:59 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:19:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
References: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC741333E49CA@MAILHOST>
Message-ID: <023501c166e0$51ed05c0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

The rendering time for this would most likely discourage you.  Someone on
the list a while back was trying to make arrows with tables and wanted my
help.  The tables were too slow to be used, IMO.  A graphic is a much better
use of processing time.

-joshua

----- Original Message -----
From: "McAtee, Malcolm" <MMcAtee at philamuseum.org>
Subject: RE: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)


: whta about a table full of 1 pixel cells....




From msk at muinar.com  Tue Nov  6 10:27:08 2001
From: msk at muinar.com (m u i n a r)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:27:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] RE: removing those htaccess passwords (was Re: [thelist]
 admin:  late posts)
In-Reply-To: <CKEKKBAACIIJCJDNLDMLGEHDFAAA.ezrasf@yahoo.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20011106165729.00a59bc0@mail.gmx.net>

Hi

Does anyone know how?

I have a password protected folder. Access is denied to all who don't
have the password. So far so clear. Now I can combine it with a deny
command: All but one single IP address are restricted from the access.
If you access the folder from this IP address, you are prompted to
input username and password. All others get 'access denied'.

What I'd need though is a combination the other way around: Everyone
with a password can get in, and adding to that, the user from the
specified address is allowed without a password.

Is that possible? I need it for a single web address to access a
script within the protected folder.

Thanks!

Mike


At 10:44 06.11.01 -0500, you wrote:
>Marc,
>
>The command to change the password is (assumes apache/bin is in the path)
>
>         % htpasswd <password file> <user name>
>
>The -c flag is used to create the password for new user.




From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Tue Nov  6 10:41:06 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:41:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011106101700.00abc5c0@pop.gvtc.com>

You could do this, but it is not efficient at all. The following is a 
small, small table with 2px x 2px cells. We all know how slow tables load 
and this table which is incomplete would take forever on a standard 
connection. In order to get a "smooth" curve you would have to set up your 
own anti-aliasing library of colors, otherwise the resolution bites. 
Depending on color depth you could end up setting 3 to 5 shades for each 
color, arrange them properly in a table, etc. This would be the same for 
CSS, specifying small DIV's with multiple shades of colors for smoothness, 
etc. You would have to call many, many DIV's to accomplish this. Again, not 
really efficient.

EXAMPLE --

STYLE SHEET --
td.color {
         background-color: #FF0000;
         color: #FF0000;
}

WEB PAGE --
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
         <title>Table Curve</title>
         <LINK REL="StyleSheet" HREF="table.css" type="text/css">
</head>

<body>

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" width="24">
<tr>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td class="color" width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" 
alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
<td width="2"><img src="trans.gif" width="2" height="2" alt="" border="0"></td>
</tr>
</table>

</body>
</html>

May I suggest a background image X 2 (or more) ? One with the original 
color of curve, the others with curves of different colors which could then 
be selected as you require? This DID make for an interesting exercise!

TTFN,

Jay Blanchard
Web Dev Mgr
TMC
1.512.396.5801 x327




From djc at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov  6 10:57:05 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Nov  6 10:57:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache ... configuration problem
References: <20011105170800.3B82851FD6@relay.evolt.org> <001401c166bd$f1627c20$42c82cc3@athlon800>
Message-ID: <3BE8168B.9050805@members.evolt.org>

the date and flock() functions are both unix specific george :(

something like:
use Date::Manip;
$date_command = UnixDate(ParseDate('now'),'%B %d, %Y');

should work better for you on win32.. not sure about the flock() stuff 
though :(

lemme know how it goes :)



George Dillon <> Evolt! wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> 
>>Subject: [thelist] Apache + ActivePerl CGI not working locally etc.
>>Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:04:32 -0000
>>
> 
> I've fixed the path problem... so now I can open/read/write files (solution
> below).
> 
> But I still can't get date to work in the lines:
> 
>    $date_command="/bin/date"; # STILL NOT WORKING
>    $logdate= `date +"%Y%m.log"`; # STILL NOT WORKING
>    $getdate = `date +"%d/%b/%Y:%T"`;  # STILL NOT WORKING
> 
> And the flock line throws up this error:
> 
>   flock() unimplemented on this platform at f:\HOME\etc.
> 
> I thought these would be standard functions within Apache, but obviously
> not.  Does this mean these are extras (modules ?) and I have to do something
> more to install them and/or tell Apache (or to get Apache to tell my CGI
> script) where to find them?
> 
> If so what do I do?
> 
> The above script causes Perl to go into some sort of endless loop, and it
> won't shut-down whatever I do (i.e. CTRL+ALT+DEL fails and a number of
> taskmanager's kill utilities also fail).  Result - I can only shut down
> Win98 using the reset button - nasty!
> 
> What's Perl trying to do and is there a way to kill Perl once it does this,
> or is there a magic-bullet line of script to prevent such a fatal error (I'm
> already using "use CGI::Carp qw(fatalsToBrowser);" and it's not working!)?






From djc at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov  6 11:11:08 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Nov  6 11:11:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] password & IP protection was: removing those htaccess passwords
References: <4.2.0.58.20011105230526.00a41bf8@mail.delime.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20011106165729.00a59bc0@mail.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3BE819D7.1010805@members.evolt.org>

Hey Mike -

Try something like this in your httpd.conf or .htaccess file:

<Directory /www/site.com/public_html/secret>
        Options Indexes FollowSymLinks (or whatever)
         AllowOverride None
         AuthName "Secret !"
         Authtype Basic
         AuthUserFile /www/site.com/.htpasswd
         require valid-user
	<Limit POST PUT GET CONNECT>
	Order deny, allow
         deny from all
         allow from 1.1.1.1
	</Limit>
</Directory>

that may or may not work :)

.djc.

m u i n a r wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Does anyone know how?
> 
> I have a password protected folder. Access is denied to all who don't
> have the password. So far so clear. Now I can combine it with a deny
> command: All but one single IP address are restricted from the access.
> If you access the folder from this IP address, you are prompted to
> input username and password. All others get 'access denied'.
> 
> What I'd need though is a combination the other way around: Everyone
> with a password can get in, and adding to that, the user from the
> specified address is allowed without a password.
> 
> Is that possible? I need it for a single web address to access a
> script within the protected folder.
> 
> Thanks!
>





From paul at thereformist.com  Tue Nov  6 11:11:56 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 11:11:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <B80D5A31.12DD%paul@thereformist.com>

I heard they're developing that for CSS-7.

:) Paul

> From: Matt <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
> 
> OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
> ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
> mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
> table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
> curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
> it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)





From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  6 11:21:25 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov  6 11:21:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <200111061721.fA6HLOjE018564@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Matt <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
>
> OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone
> has ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I
> don't mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed
> only of table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the
> color of the curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be
> appreciated even if it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)

i've never seen just tables/divs pull that off... by they're very  nature, 
they're squares...

two possible ways to handle it:

- make a table constructed of cells at 1px x 1px, then re-color 
entire rows and the like... this *can* be done, since i've messed 
with stuff like this before, but your table code will be larger (in some 
cases) than the images needed to do the same thing... just 
imaging your photoshop file zoomed way in is an HTML table and 
you'll see what i mean...

- make a curve as defined by it's *negative* space (the parts 
outside the curve)... slice that up, making sure that the part that is 
the curve is *transparent* and the outside of the curve is the color 
of the page... then define colors in those cells, and the non-curve 
portions will mask it... you'll probably be best served with aliased 
edges so you don't have halos... of course, printing these pages 
will look funny, probably...




From crsaila at yahoo.ca  Tue Nov  6 11:25:01 2001
From: crsaila at yahoo.ca (Craig Saila)
Date: Tue Nov  6 11:25:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS References
References: <B80D7673.4F56%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <3BE81D8F.8090903@yahoo.ca>

Adam wrote:

> A while ago someone posted a link to the bigass W3C recommended style sheet.


I think this is what you are referring to:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

-- 
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com  :  http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From bharoche at usa.net  Tue Nov  6 11:34:53 2001
From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche)
Date: Tue Nov  6 11:34:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site check please
References: <001301c1666f$224f2620$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <004301c166e9$8f1e3820$9865fea9@Laptop>

It's very well done, Bob.  Clean, easy to navigate and uncluttered.

If I had to find a nit or two, I'd be grasping for these two:

1. I'd like a bit more space between the Church name the row of photos below
it.

2. For your shims (spacer.gif), add the alt tag, alt="".  Not only does that
make the code validate, but it prevents text readers from saying "image"
when they encounter all those spacers.  Same goes for non-graphical browsers
like lynx.  (Since you use DW, if you like I can email you a simple find and
request query that does this for you).

Again, these are nits.  I think your church will be most pleased.

Regards,
Bob Haroche
O n P o i n t  S o l u t i o n s
http://www.OnPointSolutions.com




From matthewmozer at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  6 12:01:59 2001
From: matthewmozer at hotmail.com (Matt Mozer)
Date: Tue Nov  6 12:01:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] Can Cold Fusion Write A binary file from a BLOB field
Message-ID: <F242cCPG6hi4Qa22OMy0001f2c7@hotmail.com>

We are taking data out of a SQL server that is a BLOB field and need to 
write it to a binary file. The code i have currently written looks like 
this:

Download_prep is a query name.

<CFFILE action="write"
	file = "C:\inetpub\wwwroot\###.Prp"
	Name = #download_prep.prepfile#
	output = #download_prep.prepfile#>

The problem is that this writes an ASCII file which will not work.

Thank You in advance.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From freda.lockert at btinternet.com  Tue Nov  6 12:29:35 2001
From: freda.lockert at btinternet.com (Freda Lockert)
Date: Tue Nov  6 12:29:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS
Message-ID: <E161B09-00026N-00@carbon.btinternet.com>

Cascading Style Sheets: Designing for the Web - Hakon Lie & Bert Bos 
(co-authors of the CSS1 & 2 specs). Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-59625-3. 
2nd edition - 1999.

Covers CSS1 and 2, clearly written with worked examples.

Freda
>
>Hello all!
>I'm looking for recommendations on a good CSS book.  Simplicity and
>degradability are my interests, not a bunch of DHTML stuff that only works
>in IE 5 +.  Tips on good web resources also appreciated.



From JOHN.PEARSON at eia.doe.gov  Tue Nov  6 13:09:15 2001
From: JOHN.PEARSON at eia.doe.gov (Pearson, John)
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:09:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
Message-ID: <17F6E88671620-01@Department_of_Energy_E-Mail_Security_Server>

would a flash graphic driven by parameters that defined the curve do it?

-----Original Message-----
From: aardvark [mailto:roselli at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:23 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)


> From: Matt <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
>
> OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone
> has ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I
> don't mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed
> only of table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the
> color of the curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be
> appreciated even if it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)

i've never seen just tables/divs pull that off... by they're very  nature, 
they're squares...

two possible ways to handle it:

- make a table constructed of cells at 1px x 1px, then re-color 
entire rows and the like... this *can* be done, since i've messed 
with stuff like this before, but your table code will be larger (in some 
cases) than the images needed to do the same thing... just 
imaging your photoshop file zoomed way in is an HTML table and 
you'll see what i mean...

- make a curve as defined by it's *negative* space (the parts 
outside the curve)... slice that up, making sure that the part that is 
the curve is *transparent* and the outside of the curve is the color 
of the page... then define colors in those cells, and the non-curve 
portions will mask it... you'll probably be best served with aliased 
edges so you don't have halos... of course, printing these pages 
will look funny, probably...


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From susanhw at webcastle.com  Tue Nov  6 13:18:02 2001
From: susanhw at webcastle.com (Susan Wallace)
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:18:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Can Cold Fusion Write A binary file from a BLOB
  field
In-Reply-To: <F242cCPG6hi4Qa22OMy0001f2c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011106131255.00bf8280@webcastle.com>

Hi Matt,

<CFFILE Action="write"> is only intended to write a text format file. To my 
knowledge, the only way to accomplish this would be to write your own CFX 
tag that would take your data and write it to the type of file you need.

In case you haven't thought in this direction, you might be able to find a 
utility that will take information in the form of a variable and then write 
it to a file that you need. You could then run that Utility on the server 
using <CFEXECUTE>

I have not done this, and not positive it would work, just a thought...

HTH
Susan


>We are taking data out of a SQL server that is a BLOB field and need to 
>write it to a binary file.




From ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk  Tue Nov  6 13:23:19 2001
From: ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins)
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:23:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Matching regular expressions across multiple lines in PHP
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111061921040.15084-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>

Hi,

Does anyone know if it is possible to match regular expressions over
multiple lines in PHP? I am working with the POSIX Extended syntax, but
could use the Perl-compatible syntax instead if required.

Thanks!

Simon





From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Tue Nov  6 13:26:34 2001
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:26:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Using Studio RDS with CF5 Server on Apache
Message-ID: <3BE83A4B.4AD3CFFA@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

Evolt,
I read the Allaire KB article on this very topic (KB Article 22039) but
I'm still not able to make it work. The article advised users to copy
the [webroot]\cfide\main\ directory into the [webroot]\main\ location.
Upon inspection, this was already done, I'm assuming, during
installation. I'm still receiving the same error when trying to use
Studio 5 RDS. My Apache server is running in a W2K environment.

Has anyone else had any luck getting this to work? I'd appreciate any
help you can give me. Thanks a bunch.

http://www.allaire.com/Handlers/index.cfm?ID=22039&Method=Full

</ml>



From lists at mantruc.com  Tue Nov  6 13:27:27 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:27:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
References: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFEENLDIAA.emagin@onebox.com> <3BE2F005.142427B4@mantruc.com> <3BE6B154.F2FFC6AE@webtuitive.com>
Message-ID: <3BE83982.C992D0BA@mantruc.com>

Hassan Schroeder wrote:

> "javier velasco (mantruc)" wrote:
>
> > yes, it would be nice to exchange our methods, since the craft is so young
> >
> > this is one of the weakest areas of the IA discipline: notation standards
> > i'v seen verious efforts to compare things in this area, but all have failed
> > for reasons i don't know
>
> Sounds interesting - can you provide URLs to these efforts? Or if
> this is getting too OT contact me off-list with some background?

oops, sorry for taking so long to reply, here you are:
http://members.evolt.org/mantruc/wireframe/wf.html

(if others want, i can publish their samples on my account too)

Sam-I-Am wrote:

> there was a lengthy thread on this topic on the SIGIA-L list.. that
> might be archived somewhere, otherwise I think I have kept most of it
> (this is a great list, though I personally I don't follow it anymore.. I
> succumbed to information overload)

yes i followed that thread closely, however of all the times i've reached people
to exchange documentation examples, it's hard to see actual examples
i assume this is due to company privacy :-(

Ed already sent me some of his examples, from which i still don't understand his
style thoroughly, but it is very eye opening to see how different our approaches
are

Madhu Menon wrote:

> Does this discussion belong here?

like hell it does!

> I don't see many IA, UX topics discussed
> on thelist. :(
> (and I'd like to change that)

that only depends on us...
that's why i was careful with the message's subject line: to call your attention!
i'd also like to see more IA / UX on thelist, let's just get it rolling :)

anyway i do think that the SIGIA-L and CHI-WEB lists are the "official" list for
these matters, some days you can se very high leve conversations which are very
amazing, with all the "names" we've studied, other times it get very noisy

more IA lists:
http://www.IAwiki.net/wiki/MailingLists

however, i'd love to raise some of such issues on evolt too, and fill the site
category we have too

later

--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --





From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com  Tue Nov  6 13:39:38 2001
From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt)
Date: Tue Nov  6 13:39:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
References: <17F6E88671620-01@Department_of_Energy_E-Mail_Security_Server>
Message-ID: <3BE83CEA.52E7B8A1@lightbulbpress.com>

nope, gotta be html. The reason I want to do this is to create an interface
where all of the colors can be redefined by the client just by changing the
values in the CSS, w/out creating new graphics. The look+feel that want
includes curved elements, so I'm trying to figure out if its possible or if I
need to tell them that it needs to be redesigned somewhat. Thanks for all the
help from everyone so far, I'm going to experiment with the "masking" gif
idea.

Matt

"Pearson, John" wrote:

> would a flash graphic driven by parameters that defined the curve do it?




From me at cgiguy.com  Tue Nov  6 14:28:32 2001
From: me at cgiguy.com (me)
Date: Tue Nov  6 14:28:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
References: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBKECMCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>
Message-ID: <012401c1670a$74374e40$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>

> > and password protection
> > is actually a bit like foreplay when ya get right down to it.
>
> Well, like anything else if done incorrectly it can be circumvented or
> broken. Why would you liken this to foreplay? ;)

to explain this to you might be like explaining sex to a two year old.
you might not understand.

but yes, it is foreplay at a minimum.
to retrieve data without authorization is nothing
less than orgasmic. just take my word for it.

i have only read about these things.
never done it, of course not.

me.




----- Original Message -----
From: The Optimizer <chrism at puffofsmoke.net>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:42 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] stolen content


> [..]
> > welcome to the real world...
> > on the web a copyright notice is nothing more than
> > an open invitation to a data thief.
>
> It's actually merely an explicit statement of your automatic rights.
>
> > and password protection
> > is actually a bit like foreplay when ya get right down to it.
>
> Well, like anything else if done incorrectly it can be circumvented or
> broken. Why would you liken this to foreplay? ;)
>
> > that may sound a bit rude, but its just reality.
> >
> > so deal with it.
>
> One way to deal with it would be to sue the thief if in fact a law (civil
or
> otherwise) had been broken. Hence the question, I would guess.
>
> > and for those of you that are in need of a dutch therapist,
> > may god help you.
>
> A Dutch national, perhaps?
>
> Regards
>
> Chris Marsh
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From jamie.bakum at circle.com  Tue Nov  6 14:42:20 2001
From: jamie.bakum at circle.com (Jamie Bakum)
Date: Tue Nov  6 14:42:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] [OT] stolen content
In-Reply-To: <012401c1670a$74374e40$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>
References: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBKECMCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>
 <012401c1670a$74374e40$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>
Message-ID: <a05100303b80dfa0ae088@[10.10.8.76]>

>  to explain this to you might be like explaining sex to a two year old.

>  >to retrieve data without authorization is nothing less than 
>orgasmic. just take my word for it.

-- 
If that's your idea of "orgasmic", I think *you* didn't understand 
the explanation...

You need to get out more.

Shutting up now, (tip forthcoming)
Jamie




From Anthony at Baratta.com  Tue Nov  6 16:28:34 2001
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Tue Nov  6 16:28:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] redirecting top output.....
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>

*inux Gurus....

Any way to redirect the output of "top" like you can with vmstat? I'm 
interested for lots of "bad" reasons - but I need a way to take a snap shot 
of services like top provides and mangle them for either web output or email.

I do not have admin/shell access to the box in question, only FTP and a Web 
site.
---
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys

"Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative."




From nonzero at well.com  Tue Nov  6 16:30:04 2001
From: nonzero at well.com (Kevin D. White)
Date: Tue Nov  6 16:30:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] PHP-based web workflow
Message-ID: <003201c16712$cbf66780$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>

Does anyone have a good recomendation on a php-based workflow application
that works well for Web development teams?  I fully expect to customize the
app to my company's process but would like a decent starting point.
________________________________
Kevin D. White
email: nonzero at well.com
im: simpleCypher
icq: 135180984




From andrew at thepander.co.nz  Tue Nov  6 16:35:44 2001
From: andrew at thepander.co.nz (Andrew Forsberg)
Date: Tue Nov  6 16:35:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] redirecting top output.....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <p05100300b80e16097630@[192.168.1.1]>

Can you use whatever scripting language to exec 'top -s -n1 > 
yourfile.dump' ? Then read the dump file in to have your wicked way?


>*inux Gurus....
>
>Any way to redirect the output of "top" like you can with vmstat? 
>I'm interested for lots of "bad" reasons - but I need a way to take 
>a snap shot of services like top provides and mangle them for either 
>web output or email.
>
>I do not have admin/shell access to the box in question, only FTP 
>and a Web site.

-- 
Andrew Forsberg
---
uberNET - http://uber.net.nz/
the pander - http://thepander.co.nz/



From Anthony at Baratta.com  Tue Nov  6 16:47:31 2001
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Tue Nov  6 16:47:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] redirecting top output.....
In-Reply-To: <p05100300b80e16097630@[192.168.1.1]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106144812.02ee81b0@baratta.com>

At 02:36 PM 11/6/2001, you wrote:
>Can you use whatever scripting language to exec 'top -s -n1 > 
>yourfile.dump' ? Then read the dump file in to have your wicked way?

Anytime I try to redirect the top output I get something like this:

         top -s -n1 >file.name
         top: cannot open /dev/kmem: Permission denied
         kvm_open: Permission denied


---
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys

"Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative."




From andrew at thepander.co.nz  Tue Nov  6 17:02:53 2001
From: andrew at thepander.co.nz (Andrew Forsberg)
Date: Tue Nov  6 17:02:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] redirecting top output.....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106144812.02ee81b0@baratta.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011106142633.01b57e30@baratta.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20011106144812.02ee81b0@baratta.com>
Message-ID: <p05100301b80e1c1ce38c@[192.168.1.1]>

>Anytime I try to redirect the top output I get something like this:
>         top -s -n1 >file.name
>         top: cannot open /dev/kmem: Permission denied
>         kvm_open: Permission denied

Then your scripting language is running as nobody/nogroup, or some 
such non-privileged user. I can't think of any way to get around 
this, I'm afraid.

-- 
Andrew Forsberg
---
uberNET - http://uber.net.nz/
the pander - http://thepander.co.nz/



From jonhall at ozline.net  Tue Nov  6 17:18:14 2001
From: jonhall at ozline.net (Jon Hall)
Date: Tue Nov  6 17:18:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] Can Cold Fusion Write A binary file from a BLOB  field
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011106131255.00bf8280@webcastle.com>
Message-ID: <004801c16719$da598df0$a41f88d8@ns2>

This hasn't been true since CF 4.5. What you need to do though is store the
binary file in the database as base64 encoded data. Once you query out the
data use tobinary() to convert it to a binary object in memory. Cffile will
let you write the variable to a file just like you would normally.

In order to read a binary file with cffile there is a seperate action
<cffile action="readbinary" ...>

jon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Wallace" <susanhw at webcastle.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Can Cold Fusion Write A binary file from a BLOB field


> Hi Matt,
>
> <CFFILE Action="write"> is only intended to write a text format file. To
my
> knowledge, the only way to accomplish this would be to write your own CFX
> tag that would take your data and write it to the type of file you need.
>
> In case you haven't thought in this direction, you might be able to find a
> utility that will take information in the form of a variable and then
write
> it to a file that you need. You could then run that Utility on the server
> using <CFEXECUTE>
>
> I have not done this, and not positive it would work, just a thought...
>
> HTH
> Susan
>
>
> >We are taking data out of a SQL server that is a BLOB field and need to
> >write it to a binary file.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From isaac at triplezero.com.au  Tue Nov  6 17:27:28 2001
From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman)
Date: Tue Nov  6 17:27:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] Salon backend and content processes
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIKELKDIAA.isaac@triplezero.com.au>

There's an interesting feature at Design Interact on Salon.com's backend and
content development processes which might interest anyone who either follows
Salon's progress, or is curious about behind-the-scenes CMS stuff:

http://www.designinteract.com/features/



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From evolt at georgedillon.com  Tue Nov  6 17:39:06 2001
From: evolt at georgedillon.com (George Dillon  <> Evolt!)
Date: Tue Nov  6 17:39:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Apache ... configuration problem (solved)
References: <20011106170209.2430951F99@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <001601c1671c$74943620$75d12cc3@athlon800>

> > But I still can't get date to work in the lines:
> >    $date_command="/bin/date"; # STILL NOT WORKING
> >    $logdate= `date +"%Y%m.log"`; # STILL NOT WORKING

> That's because of the /bin/date command - this is for *nix.

Ah!  Got that!  Thanks Arthur.  Just saved me more effort trying to do the
impossible, and it's a relief to know my set-up *is* now working correctly!
Just have to do it another way...

For now I'll just use SSI to store two formatted date values (one for the
log name and one for the page entry) which I *can* easily retrieve in my CGI
script.  When I get round to it, I'll use a reg exp to parse gmtime() within
the CGI.

> the date and flock() functions are both unix specific george :(
> use Date::Manip;
> $date_command = UnixDate(ParseDate('now'),'%B %d, %Y');
> should work better for you on win32.. not sure about the flock() stuff
> lemme know how it goes :)

Thanks Dan :)  Yes, I'd discovered that flock was non windows.  However
adapting a js-style sniff-n-code approach, the following tweak allows me to
code one script to be compatible with both my local Wind-machine and my 'nix
host:

unless ($ENV{'SERVER_ADDR'} =~ /127.0.0/)  { flock LOG, 2; };

So now I'm happy and excitedly embarking on the great Perl adventure!

Later

George Dillon






From cache at dowebs.com  Tue Nov  6 19:15:27 2001
From: cache at dowebs.com (Keith)
Date: Tue Nov  6 19:15:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] stolen content
In-Reply-To: <OE713wSimD3JkUwWpSW0000502a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BE82920.3695.F2F7BD@localhost>

> The list of therapists on that page has been stolen by another site...

As I understand it, the data is not protected by copyright, only the 
data's 'presentation' is protected. If your list was on a static page 
there's little you can do to prevent this 'theft'. Even a search engine 
might provide your list depending on the query one used. You 
obviously spent time and energy compiling that list and that time 
and energy was 'stolen', but not the data itself which you made 
available. You might sue on the theft of effort, but not on copyright 
grounds unless the other site quoted your list (and code) verbatim.

If the list was available to a browser then it is legal for someone to 
compile a list of therapists from your site, at least in USA.  Courts 
have ruled that data which is permissioned as available a browser 
etc. and not protected by password authentication is fair game.  A 
site cannot legally dictate how data is used once the data is made 
available to the public. Suppose you had published the list in a 
newspaper or magazine and they had used that to put up a list on 
their website? Same thing.

I had a similar problem on a site for a PPO. We have thousands of 
doctors, clinics, therapists, hospitals etc available on the site so 
patients can find a participating provider. The full list however is 
also of extreme value to our client's competitors. The list is 
available only through CGI requests, purposefully designed to return 
small chunks of the list matching the query and queries are 
designed to frustrate an attempt to manually extract the full list. We 
also built in a way to reject requests from a robot trying to 'milk' the 
database. But if someone does indeed get the list from our site, 
there is no legal remedy, we're the ones who made it available.

Frustrating isn't it! Information is power, and making it available is 
an excersise of that power, and a dilution of that power.

keith









From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov  6 20:35:20 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 20:35:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJEECFCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <000101c16735$25e0c660$4ac063d8@75ctt01>

My computer doesn't seem to have this option. Is it my shitty OS or my
monitor?

- amanda

> > Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will
> > support 75Hz or greater until we
> > hit the button and watch what happens?
> 
> Check your monitor manual or in recent version of
> Windows under the Display Control Panel, there's an
> option when you're changing the frequency only to
> display supported modes. In any case, Windows will
> switch back after 15 seconds if you don't click to
> say "Yes, keep this new setting".
> 
>  -Ross
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> ross lynch  | me at rosslynch.com  | +353 (0)87 9683368 
> ____________________________________________________
> Nicht auf dem Teppich, Mann!
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: 
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov  6 21:09:54 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 21:09:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <000101c16735$25e0c660$4ac063d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <000201c16739$f9d70660$4ac063d8@75ctt01>

Nevermind -- I just found the other thread on this.

- amanda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of A. Erickson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:37 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
> 
> 
> My computer doesn't seem to have this option. Is it my shitty 
> OS or my monitor?
> 
> - amanda
> 
> > > Sooo...How do we know if our monitor will
> > > support 75Hz or greater until we
> > > hit the button and watch what happens?
> > 
> > Check your monitor manual or in recent version of
> > Windows under the Display Control Panel, there's an
> > option when you're changing the frequency only to
> > display supported modes. In any case, Windows will
> > switch back after 15 seconds if you don't click to
> > say "Yes, keep this new setting".
> > 
> >  -Ross
> > 
> > ____________________________________________________
> > ross lynch  | me at rosslynch.com  | +353 (0)87 9683368
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Nicht auf dem Teppich, Mann!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From mwallace at bindview.com  Tue Nov  6 21:29:27 2001
From: mwallace at bindview.com (Wallace, Mark)
Date: Tue Nov  6 21:29:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Macromedia CF Enterprise setup crash
Message-ID: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287302A43274@BVMAIL>

Greetings all - 
Do we have any Installshield developers here? I'm having some problems
installing Macromedia's Cold Fusion 5 (Enterprise) on a couple of systems;
apparently there's a bug in the version of Installshield that Macromedia
used to build the setup. I'm seeing this on 1/2 Win2k systems I've installed
on, and 1/3 NT4 systems.

I get the following when trying to install:

Unhandled Exception
Error Number: 0x80040707
Description: Dll function call crashed: ISRT.GetPorts
Setup will now terminate.

And indeed it does. Stone dead. It never gets so far as to actually do any
"installing", rather, it's dying while trying to install itself.

Macromedia is stumped (the tech support guru assigned to this ticket keeps
repeating himself; to summarize, "there's a problem with your system, I
can't help with that"), Installshield sort of admits that there's a problem
that they can't solve
(http://www.installsite.org/forum1/cgi-bin/ikonboard/forums.cgi?forum=23) 
but they're stuck as well ("It is still obscure which conditions cause this
problem.")

Here's a transcript of my interaction with Macromedia tech support to date:
http://www.bindview.com/mmsupport/

Questions: 
Does anyone have any recommendations for a good dll dependency program? 
What I'd like to do is run the setup, watch it crash, then find the
Installshield executable and find which DLLs it's trying to read from. 
I'd also like to be able to do some detective work on what function or
program is trying to "GetPorts" - is it trying to read a registry key, or
what? 
Is it possible to "decompile" an installshield package? We're a software
development house; I could probably get some of my developers to tear this
thing apart and find the problem, but so far it's my problem and I'd like to
find a way to solve it.

Suggestions?
Mark



From webmaster at redhotsweeps.com  Tue Nov  6 21:41:44 2001
From: webmaster at redhotsweeps.com (Webmaster)
Date: Tue Nov  6 21:41:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] (no subject)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com>

I sent this earlier, but didn't see it come through.

Can someone tell me how the styles below work?

.sidebar UL {
         BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #9999cc; 
BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #9999cc
}
Does this only work with ULs within a sidebar class?

.sidebar .container {
         PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; COLOR: 
#ffffff; PADDING-TOP: 5px
}
No clue

.sidebar .ib TABLE {
         BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #9999cc; 
BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #9999cc
}
No clue either.

Any help is appreciated.

Chris





From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Tue Nov  6 22:14:22 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Tue Nov  6 22:14:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] Descendant selectors in CSS (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNEEDJENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

> Can someone tell me how the styles below work?
>
> .sidebar UL {
<snip />
> Does this only work with ULs within a sidebar class?

yep

> .sidebar .container {

applies to elements with the class "container" that are descendants of
elements with the class "sidebar"

eg.

<div class="sidebar">
	<div class="container">...</div> <!-- this will have the style applied -->
	<p>...</p> <!-- this will not -->
</div>


> .sidebar .ib TABLE {

applies to all tables that are descendants of elements with the class "ib"
that are descendants of elements with the class "sidebar"

eg.

<div class="sidebar">
	<div class="ib">
		<table>...</table> <!-- this will have the style applied -->
		<p>...</p> <!-- this will not -->
		<p>
			<table>...</table> <!-- this will have the style applied too -->
		</p>
	</div>
</div>

more info on the wacky world of selectors can be found here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html#descendant-selectors

especially interesting is the W3C's definition of 'descendant' :o)
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/conform.html#x27

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Webmaster
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 2:43 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] (no subject)
>
>
> I sent this earlier, but didn't see it come through.

<snip />




From mark.cheng at ranger.com.au  Tue Nov  6 22:22:54 2001
From: mark.cheng at ranger.com.au (Mark Cheng)
Date: Tue Nov  6 22:22:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLHBCELHIICJKLEFNKEHBEEAA.mark.cheng@ranger.com.au>

Hi Chris,

Using CSS, the . is the class selector.  listing classes or tags with no
separator means it will only apply if that sequence occurs in your code.

Therefore

div p {Will apply this style to all p tags within a div, but not p in body}


> .sidebar UL {
>          BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #9999cc;
> BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #9999cc
> }
> Does this only work with ULs within a sidebar class?
>

Correct

> .sidebar .container {
>          PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px; PADDING-BOTTOM:
> 5px; COLOR:
> #ffffff; PADDING-TOP: 5px
> }

Apply the style to any tag with container class (eg <span class="container")
if it is contained in tag with class sidebar.

Therefore <p class="sidebar"><span class="container> picks up the style ...
BUT
<body> <div class="container"> doesn't

>
> .sidebar .ib TABLE {
>          BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #9999cc;
> BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #9999cc; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #9999cc
> }

so in this case the .sidebar .ib is the same as the example above.  The
trick here is that the style only applies to the Table tag.  Therefore to
get this to work you need

<div class="sidebar"><div class="ib"><table>etc.

Note that you don't need to use div tags - I just used that for convenience.

hth

MarkC


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From burhankh at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  6 22:41:41 2001
From: burhankh at hotmail.com (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Tue Nov  6 22:41:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Books
Message-ID: <F1397ZnIYMHY2GzNqQ500007817@hotmail.com>

Hey there evolters :

After encouragement (and threats) from lots of people, I have finally 
decided to give in and write a manual/install help guide for a GPL 
storytelling software. My question is, are there any specific guidelines 
(other than, say, MLA) for writing computer-specific books? Also, where do I 
go about submitting this book for printing? Are there any computer/geek 
friendly print shops/editors/publishing houses?

Need help.

Thanks,
Burhan


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Tue Nov  6 22:56:56 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Tue Nov  6 22:56:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] Books
In-Reply-To: <F1397ZnIYMHY2GzNqQ500007817@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNEEDNENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

There are a whole bunch of computer related publishers, a few off the top of
my head:

O'Reilly:
http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html

Sams:
http://www.samspublishing.com/write.cfm

Or just pick a book at random and get in touch with the publishers.

Both of those sites have guidelines sections in them, but they would
probably vary from publisher to publisher.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au




From bill at ilovett.com  Tue Nov  6 22:59:27 2001
From: bill at ilovett.com (Bill Lovett)
Date: Tue Nov  6 22:59:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Books
In-Reply-To: <F1397ZnIYMHY2GzNqQ500007817@hotmail.com>; from burhankh@hotmail.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:43:19PM -0600
References: <F1397ZnIYMHY2GzNqQ500007817@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011106235705.A1965@rcn.com>

On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:43:19PM -0600, Burhan Khalid wrote:

> Also, where do I 
> go about submitting this book for printing? Are there any computer/geek 
> friendly print shops/editors/publishing houses?


Have you seen Andamooka? Since you're talking GPL, this is definitely
something to look into. 

To quote the homepage:  "Andamooka hosts open content books for
reading, annotation, and discussion. "


http://www.andamooka.org


-bill



From amanda at gawow.com  Tue Nov  6 23:19:44 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Tue Nov  6 23:19:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] Books
In-Reply-To: <F1397ZnIYMHY2GzNqQ500007817@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1674c$1b74cf20$4ac063d8@75ctt01>

You could check out New Riders http://www.newriders.com/. They seem to
have an array of titles specific to computers and the web industry. 

- amanda

> Hey there evolters :
> 
> After encouragement (and threats) from lots of people, I have finally 
> decided to give in and write a manual/install help guide for a GPL 
> storytelling software. My question is, are there any specific 
> guidelines 
> (other than, say, MLA) for writing computer-specific books? 
> Also, where do I 
> go about submitting this book for printing? Are there any 
> computer/geek 
> friendly print shops/editors/publishing houses?
> 
> Need help.
> 
> Thanks,
> Burhan
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: 
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From n.beresford at anansi.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 03:16:00 2001
From: n.beresford at anansi.co.uk (Norman Beresford)
Date: Wed Nov  7 03:16:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] Books
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNEEDNENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>
Message-ID: <PJEHKEKJKBCIAFEIAFAEIEPICDAA.n.beresford@anansi.co.uk>

I'm a big fan of WROX books, although I must say that the Professional
ASP.NET one seems to have been a wee bit rushed.

www.wrox.com

Norman


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Lindsay Evans
> Sent: 07 November 2001 04:59
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Books
>
>
>
> There are a whole bunch of computer related publishers, a few off
> the top of
> my head:
>
> O'Reilly:
> http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html
>
> Sams:
> http://www.samspublishing.com/write.cfm




From sfmalo at msn.com  Wed Nov  7 03:47:34 2001
From: sfmalo at msn.com (sfmalo)
Date: Wed Nov  7 03:47:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
Message-ID: <015c01c16770$e0f2ef60$98211b3f@oemcomputer>

Here's the reply from barebones.

Sharon

From: "BBSW Sales Department" <sales at barebones.com>
To: "sfmalo" <sfmalo at msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: BBEdit for the PC


> Hello Sharon:
> 
> Thanks for writing in. At the present time BBEdit is only available
> for the Mac. Although we have certainly considered doing a Windows
> version, given the number of substantial technical and operational
> issues involved, we are very unlikely to offer one in the
> foreseeable future.
> 
> In the meantime, we do appreciate your interest. Should you have any further
> questions, or if we can otherwise be of assistance in any way, please
> do not hesitate to let us know.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Cindy Kalkwarf
> Sales
=================================================================
> Bare Bones Software                     Phone:  781-687-0700
> PO Box 1048                             Fax:    781-687-0711
> Bedford, MA  01730-1048                 http://www.barebones.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com





From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 04:08:20 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 04:08:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLHBCELHIICJKLEFNKEHBEEAA.mark.cheng@ranger.com.au>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEAPCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

hi people, ive done the basic rounds on site check, IE 5.x + and NS 4.x on
Pc and Mac (NS 6 on Pc), ive not been able to install IE 4 anywhere and i
haven't got NS 6 on a Mac, if any of you people have and you have a spare
couple of minutes could you please do a sanity check for me.

url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge

many thanks

Paul




From webmaster at menouno.com  Wed Nov  7 04:14:36 2001
From: webmaster at menouno.com (webmaster at menouno.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 04:14:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEAPCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <NCBBLHBCELHIICJKLEFNKEHBEEAA.mark.cheng@ranger.com.au>
Message-ID: <3BE918CF.11763.88B08B@localhost>

On 7 Nov 2001 at 10:09, Paul Backhouse wrote about [thelist] Site Check:

> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge

I get a spotless white page in Opera 5.12/Win98...

ciao


Massimo



From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 04:16:02 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 04:16:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <3BE918CF.11763.88B08B@localhost>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHMEAPCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

dont really give a monkeys about opera..sorry

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of webmaster at menouno.com
Sent: 07 November 2001 10:20
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check


On 7 Nov 2001 at 10:09, Paul Backhouse wrote about [thelist] Site Check:

> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge

I get a spotless white page in Opera 5.12/Win98...

ciao


Massimo

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From ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk  Wed Nov  7 04:57:16 2001
From: ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins)
Date: Wed Nov  7 04:57:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHMEAPCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071050580.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>

Paul,
 
>> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge
>> I get a spotless white page in Opera 5.12/Win98...

> dont really give a monkeys about opera..sorry

I think that's a pretty poor attitude, for a couple of reasons:

1. Why completely stop a (albeit small) section of your audience from
viewing your site for no reason? I'm willing to bet there is nothing
fundamentally wrong. To just not bother to investigate seems like
laziness when you can download Opera for free and check for your self.

2. Often problems one a particular browser are a result of real problems
in the code. Just because some browsers are forgiving doesn't mean they
all are (or will be). Getting it right now will help ensure your designs
won't break in future browser releases. Have you tried validating your
code? Maybe the problem isn't with Opera at all...


Simon




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 05:08:22 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 05:08:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071050580.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

rite, im not going back into this debate AGAIN!!!
it works in mozilla on NT - thats a bonus - i happen to like mozilla and
even though im not required to program for it i do like to make sure it
works in mozilla - but thats my personal choice - the company i work for has
a spec - its the line - anything past the line - (a small percentage -
microscopic if the truth be told) are just gonna have to deal with it.

If im asked to program for opera, il program for opera, thats it.

as far as i can see there noubt wrong with the code, be my guest if you want
to find the problem, its pretty simple nested tables with iframe in Ie and
scrollable layers in Ns (which at a guess is probably whats messing up
opera - the scrollable layers - somehow).

if you can see the problem let me know, and if its straight forward il sort
it for you, but im not going to waste my time and i don't think the company
i work for would be too chuffed either.

Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!

i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

cheers

paul




-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Simon Coggins
Sent: 07 November 2001 10:59
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


Paul,

>> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge
>> I get a spotless white page in Opera 5.12/Win98...

> dont really give a monkeys about opera..sorry

I think that's a pretty poor attitude, for a couple of reasons:

1. Why completely stop a (albeit small) section of your audience from
viewing your site for no reason? I'm willing to bet there is nothing
fundamentally wrong. To just not bother to investigate seems like
laziness when you can download Opera for free and check for your self.

2. Often problems one a particular browser are a result of real problems
in the code. Just because some browsers are forgiving doesn't mean they
all are (or will be). Getting it right now will help ensure your designs
won't break in future browser releases. Have you tried validating your
code? Maybe the problem isn't with Opera at all...


Simon


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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From webmaster at menouno.com  Wed Nov  7 05:42:45 2001
From: webmaster at menouno.com (webmaster at menouno.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 05:42:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071050580.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3BE92D79.27287.984F4@localhost>

On 7 Nov 2001 at 11:09, Paul Backhouse wrote about RE: [thelist] Site Check:

> im not going back into this debate AGAIN!!!
> [...]

> if you can see the problem let me know, and if its straight forward il
> sort it for you, but im not going to waste my time 

the problem are not the nested tables or scrollable layers but the fact that the URL 
you gave (http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge) is just an empty shell with a JS 
redirection - which is not working (for me and my minority browser)

> small percentage - microscopic if the truth be told

FWIW, some of my sites are recording more Opera than Mac hits. But - to quote 
you - "I'm not going to waste my time". Back to work

Over


Massimo




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 05:47:49 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 05:47:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <3BE92D79.27287.984F4@localhost>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBBCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

Massimo, thank you for your constructive comment, il check the Js redirect
(didn't do that bit).
The issue was the designer wanted it to open in a pop up window, il look
into it and why your getting white.

>FWIW, some of my sites are recording more Opera than Mac hits. But - to
quote
>you - "I'm not going to waste my time". Back to work

On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not the general
public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are the most
percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit our website is
as rare as the dodo.

many thanks

paul


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of webmaster at menouno.com
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:48
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


On 7 Nov 2001 at 11:09, Paul Backhouse wrote about RE: [thelist] Site Check:

> im not going back into this debate AGAIN!!!
> [...]

> if you can see the problem let me know, and if its straight forward il
> sort it for you, but im not going to waste my time

the problem are not the nested tables or scrollable layers but the fact that
the URL
you gave (http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge) is just an empty shell with a JS
redirection - which is not working (for me and my minority browser)

> small percentage - microscopic if the truth be told

FWIW, some of my sites are recording more Opera than Mac hits. But - to
quote
you - "I'm not going to waste my time". Back to work

Over


Massimo


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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk  Wed Nov  7 05:54:04 2001
From: ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins)
Date: Wed Nov  7 05:54:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071134020.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>

> Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!
> 
> i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

Okay, fair enough. I guess I'm just particularly sensitive to this kind of
thing because my computer at work runs linux and I'm fed up of being told
what browser I should be using!

I can understand why there is a need to work to a spec - obviously you
can't spend all day checking your site in everything down to Netscape 2
when you've got sites to build. Having said that I can't resist one little
comment:

>On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not the general
>public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are the most
>percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit our website
>is as rare as the dodo.

You may have more Opera visitors than you think. The default user-agent
string Opera sends is very similar to MSIE5. If you want to identify as
Opera you have to change it in the preferences. This is because
people often write javascript code that uses the user-agent string rather
than support of the object to conditionally serve different code.

To fix the redirect, try changing:

top.location="http://www.2cs.com/"

to:

top.location.href="http://www.2cs.com/"


Simon






From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 06:10:54 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 06:10:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071134020.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBCCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

Simon,
	 ah, i never knew that opera came across only if you change it in the
preferences.
I analyse logs frequently through webtrends and that will pick up what
browsers are being used, ive always found online live stats slightly
unreliable in certain areas - such as browser detection and i prefer to get
the logs and do it myself.

>top.location.href="http://www.2cs.com/"

my god, something as simple as that??? im surprised the guy who did the page
didn't do it like that anyway - he's our javascript king.

your on linux then are you, so is opera the best browser for linux - i
haven't seen or used linux systems since 1998, im now in a mac and pc
environment

many thanks

paul




-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Simon Coggins
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:56
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check



> Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!
>
> i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

Okay, fair enough. I guess I'm just particularly sensitive to this kind of
thing because my computer at work runs linux and I'm fed up of being told
what browser I should be using!

I can understand why there is a need to work to a spec - obviously you
can't spend all day checking your site in everything down to Netscape 2
when you've got sites to build. Having said that I can't resist one little
comment:

>On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not the general
>public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are the most
>percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit our website
>is as rare as the dodo.

You may have more Opera visitors than you think. The default user-agent
string Opera sends is very similar to MSIE5. If you want to identify as
Opera you have to change it in the preferences. This is because
people often write javascript code that uses the user-agent string rather
than support of the object to conditionally serve different code.

To fix the redirect, try changing:

top.location="http://www.2cs.com/"

to:

top.location.href="http://www.2cs.com/"


Simon




---------------------------------------
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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 06:13:06 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 06:13:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111071134020.19917-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHOEBCCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

ok, ive now sorted that javascript code.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Simon Coggins
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:56
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check



> Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!
> 
> i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

Okay, fair enough. I guess I'm just particularly sensitive to this kind of
thing because my computer at work runs linux and I'm fed up of being told
what browser I should be using!

I can understand why there is a need to work to a spec - obviously you
can't spend all day checking your site in everything down to Netscape 2
when you've got sites to build. Having said that I can't resist one little
comment:

>On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not the general
>public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are the most
>percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit our website
>is as rare as the dodo.

You may have more Opera visitors than you think. The default user-agent
string Opera sends is very similar to MSIE5. If you want to identify as
Opera you have to change it in the preferences. This is because
people often write javascript code that uses the user-agent string rather
than support of the object to conditionally serve different code.

To fix the redirect, try changing:

top.location="http://www.2cs.com/"

to:

top.location.href="http://www.2cs.com/"


Simon




---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From rinaldi at ihwy.com  Wed Nov  7 07:05:10 2001
From: rinaldi at ihwy.com (Laura J. Rinaldi)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:05:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good recommendations on chat room packages
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <p05010400b80ee22749cd@[207.20.86.107]>

Hey evolters,

Does anyone know any good chat room packages? I have a client who 
wants chat rooms on his website.

I don't want to build it from scratch.

Laura
-- 
"When action grows unprofitable, gather information; when information 
grows unprofitable, sleep."
		---Ursula K. Le Guin "The Left Hand of Darkness" (1969)



From gnarly at punkass.com  Wed Nov  7 07:06:34 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:06:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHOEBCCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <01db01c1678d$80fdc950$0100a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Backhouse" <paul.backhouse at 2cs.com>
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


> ok, ive now sorted that javascript code.

Works fine in Opera 5.12 Win2K now :-)

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From mbarrett at triad.rr.com  Wed Nov  7 07:09:29 2001
From: mbarrett at triad.rr.com (Michael Barrett)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:09:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
In-Reply-To: <015c01c16770$e0f2ef60$98211b3f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B80E9D21.8E99%mbarrett@triad.rr.com>

This may have already been mentioned by someone on the list....

For a winders alternative to BBEdit...A buddy of mine uses UltraEdit.
http://www.ultraedit.com/

Inexpensive, lots of features. Werks in Windoze

> Here's the reply from barebones.
>> Hello Sharon:
>> 
>> Thanks for writing in. At the present time BBEdit is only available

-- 
Michael Barrett
-O^O-
  - 

mbarrett at triad.rr.com
AIM: device55




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 07:15:22 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:15:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <01db01c1678d$80fdc950$0100a8c0@olly>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHAEBECIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

cheers olly

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Olly Hodgson
Sent: 07 November 2001 13:10
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Backhouse" <paul.backhouse at 2cs.com>
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


> ok, ive now sorted that javascript code.

Works fine in Opera 5.12 Win2K now :-)

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -



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From morbus at disobey.com  Wed Nov  7 07:25:27 2001
From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:25:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
In-Reply-To: <B80E9D21.8E99%mbarrett@triad.rr.com>
References: <B80E9D21.8E99%mbarrett@triad.rr.com>
Message-ID: <p05101000b80ee6f0f0ca@[63.173.138.116]>

>For a winders alternative to BBEdit...A buddy of mine uses UltraEdit.
>http://www.ultraedit.com/

I can vouch for UltraEdit. I'm a diehard BBEdit user - nearly everything I
do is done in BBEdit when it comes to the Mac (hell, it's even my CLI
editor of choice with the new 6.5 for OS X). For Windows, I mostly spend my
time with UltraEdit or Homesite 5, depending on how long I'll be in either
one and what I'm doing.

-- 
Morbus Iff ( i am your scary godmother )
http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/
please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus



From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Wed Nov  7 07:32:16 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 07:32:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] Problem w/ Multiple Buttons on Page
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107071845.00aae210@pop.gvtc.com>

Good Morning,

I wanted to use multiple buttons on a form page, but now I have found a 
problem with doing so. The form submits info to a database, within the form 
are two buttons;

<input type="button" value="Foo" onClick="imagePopup('image.asp','600','100')">
<input type="submit" name="Submit" value="Submit">

Both of these work fine.

I have another form to popup a help window which just contains a button;

<form name="help"><input type="submit" name="help" value="Help" 
onClick="helpPopup('help_feature.asp','380','400')"></form>

AAACK... see it now! The help button needs to be a button, not a submit. I 
changed it and it worked.

This brings up what may be my cheapest tip to date, but since this has 
happened more than a couple of times now....

<tip>Having a problem with some code? Start typing the problem out, as 
above, or describing the problem in detail to a fellow coder. You will 
often locate the problem due to the fact that you have to slow down enough 
to actually describe and look at the code in a little different light than 
your normal "staring-at-the-screen-too-hard" mode.</tip>

Jay Blanchard




From Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM  Wed Nov  7 09:09:15 2001
From: Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM (Ron_Senykoff at BEAEROSPACE.COM)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:09:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS - Results compiled
Message-ID: <OF8050D7A4.F65F4117-ON85256AFD.0051D0F3@beaerospace.com>

Thanks everybody for your help!  I'll organize the total findings in a tip
below so it'll get harvested.

<tip type="CSS - Cascading Style Sheets Resources - Books / Websites">

http://www.w3.org/Style/
http://www.brainjar.com/
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/
http://www.webreview.com/style/index.shtml

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565926226/qid=1005145360/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_11_2/104-8725355-2449532
Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide
by Eric A. Meyer - O'REILLY

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130834564/qid=1005145360/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_11_5/104-8725355-2449532
Core CSS Cascading Style Sheets (With CD-ROM)
by Keith Schengili-Roberts

</tip>

-Ron



                                                                                                                                                     
                    "carole guevin"                                                                                                                  
                    <carole at soulmedia.c        To:     <thelist at lists.evolt.org>                                                                     
                    om>                        cc:                                                                                                   
                    Sent by:                   Subject:     RE: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS                                             
                    thelist-admin at lists                                                                                                              
                    .evolt.org                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     
                    11/06/2001 09:46 AM                                                                                                              
                    Please respond to                                                                                                                
                    thelist                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     




check http://netdiver.net in the toolbox area -> scriptware - bunch of
sites
and in the -> bookshelves there are css related books too. hth.

.c



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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
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From jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 09:38:27 2001
From: jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk (Jon Haworth)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:38:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F474@BOOTROS>

Well, the validator at validator.w3.org reports at least a hundred errors
with the page, mostly to do with missing ALT tags or TYPEs for your scripts.

However there are also </td>, </tr> and </table> tags that don't match up,
which will cause you problems.

Validate your code, *then* get the site check.

Cheers
Jon


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Backhouse [mailto:paul.backhouse at 2cs.com]
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:10
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


rite, im not going back into this debate AGAIN!!!
it works in mozilla on NT - thats a bonus - i happen to like mozilla and
even though im not required to program for it i do like to make sure it
works in mozilla - but thats my personal choice - the company i work for has
a spec - its the line - anything past the line - (a small percentage -
microscopic if the truth be told) are just gonna have to deal with it.

If im asked to program for opera, il program for opera, thats it.

as far as i can see there noubt wrong with the code, be my guest if you want
to find the problem, its pretty simple nested tables with iframe in Ie and
scrollable layers in Ns (which at a guess is probably whats messing up
opera - the scrollable layers - somehow).

if you can see the problem let me know, and if its straight forward il sort
it for you, but im not going to waste my time and i don't think the company
i work for would be too chuffed either.

Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!

i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

cheers

paul


**********************************************************************
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intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, 
any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be 
unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether 
inadvertent or otherwise is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality'

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From webguru at vsnl.net  Wed Nov  7 09:38:30 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:38:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Paypal
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107175436.00a91500@203.197.12.4>

Hi.

I found this article about PayPal:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/19/technology/19NECO.html?pagewanted=all


<quote>

Anyone who signs up to use PayPal, an Internet payment service that has 
become popular among users of auction sites, must provide it with a lot of 
personal data: name, telephone, address, e- mail and credit card or banking 
information.

So far, more than six million people have registered to use the service. 
But for all that PayPal knows about its customers, it is remarkably guarded 
about its own contact information.

There is no street address, phone number or e-mail address listed among the 
contact information on PayPal's Web site ? just a post office box in Palo 
Alto, Calif., and a form to submit a question electronically. PayPal does 
not even have a phone number available through directory assistance. (There 
is a phone number for customer service on the site, but it takes some 
dedicated digging to find it.)

As it happens, the Better Business Bureau of Santa Clara County recently 
rated PayPal's customer service unsatisfactory, in part because of 
complaints that the company is slow to respond to customer inquiries. But 
PayPal is certainly not the only site that has made it more than a little 
challenging for customers to reach a representative, or even locate contact 
information.

</quote>

Since a fair few people on thelist seem to use PayPal, I thought you'd be 
interested.

Regards,

Madhu


<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net





From mail at redhotsweeps.com  Wed Nov  7 09:38:50 2001
From: mail at redhotsweeps.com (Chris)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:38:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS Questions
Message-ID: <3be82f955ef6b1.22233932@redhotsweeps.com>

Hello all.  

I have a few simple CSS questions that hopefully someone can answer for me. 

What do the classes below do?  I'm not talking about the border-right or padding-right, but more the IMG within the .sidebar class & the .container within the .sidebar class.  

.sidebar IMG {
BORDER-RIGHT: #003366 1px solid
}
Does this only apply to IMG tags within the sidebar class?

.sidebar .container {
PADDING-RIGHT: 5px
}
Does this only apply to the container class that is nested within the sidebar class?

Any help is appreciated.

Chris







From thelist at cbizz.net  Wed Nov  7 09:45:41 2001
From: thelist at cbizz.net (profjj)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:45:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS - Results compiled
In-Reply-To: <OF8050D7A4.F65F4117-ON85256AFD.0051D0F3@beaerospace.com>
Message-ID: <NCEIJIFGNJNBOHBNJFKHMEHACOAA.thelist@cbizz.net>

Didn't see when this was passing around, so  i'll add some more, which were
already sent on evolt on this list, to the bottom of this list.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
:Thanks everybody for your help!  I'll organize the total findings in a tip
:below so it'll get harvested.
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>

<tip type="CSS - Cascading Style Sheets Resources - Books / Websites">

http://www.w3.org/Style/
http://www.brainjar.com/
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/
http://www.webreview.com/style/index.shtml

http://css.nu/
http://glish.com/css/
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/index.html
http://www.richinstyle.com/
http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565926226/qid=1005145360/sr=1-2/ref=
sr_1_11_2/104-8725355-2449532
Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide
by Eric A. Meyer - O'REILLY

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130834564/qid=1005145360/sr=1-5/ref=
sr_1_11_5/104-8725355-2449532
Core CSS Cascading Style Sheets (With CD-ROM)
by Keith Schengili-Roberts

</tip>

[[:profjj:]]
//* http://cbizz.net *//
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
:-Ron
:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>









From scott at milcap.com  Wed Nov  7 09:47:30 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:47:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good recommendations on chat room packages
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E53@grety.milcap.com>

Try www.webmaster.com, they do a thing called the webmaster conference suite, it?s a java based irc chat package

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura J. Rinaldi [mailto:rinaldi at ihwy.com] 
Sent: 07 November 2001 14:07
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Good recommendations on chat room packages


Hey evolters,

Does anyone know any good chat room packages? I have a client who 
wants chat rooms on his website.

I don't want to build it from scratch.

Laura
-- 
"When action grows unprofitable, gather information; when information 
grows unprofitable, sleep."
		---Ursula K. Le Guin "The Left Hand of Darkness" (1969)

---------------------------------------
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From ejr106 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  7 09:50:00 2001
From: ejr106 at hotmail.com (Eric Reynolds)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:50:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] Plea for help - aid in my research
Message-ID: <F110ecm9t0CI76rOJhK00001a28@hotmail.com>

Hi everybody,

My name is Eric Reynolds, and i'm at university here in England, studying 
Computer Science with Business Studies.

The reason i'm mailing to this list is that i'm currently doing some 
research for a project i'm working on, about business roles within the IT 
industry, and i was wondering if you guys would be so kind as to help me 
out. I just need as many of you as possible to mail me the answers to the 
following 2 questions:

1. What is your job title?
2. What projects are you currently working on (what technologies do they 
involve?)

It is probably best if you mail me off-list with your answers...

thanks in advance,

Eric

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From djc at starkmedia.com  Wed Nov  7 09:50:50 2001
From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:50:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] Macromedia CF Enterprise setup crash
References: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287302A43274@BVMAIL>
Message-ID: <3BE95886.3020008@starkmedia.com>

Wallace, Mark wrote:


> Here's a transcript of my interaction with Macromedia tech support to date:
> http://www.bindview.com/mmsupport/


ouch.


> Questions: 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a good dll dependency program? 
> What I'd like to do is run the setup, watch it crash, then find the
> Installshield executable and find which DLLs it's trying to read from. 
> I'd also like to be able to do some detective work on what function or
> program is trying to "GetPorts" - is it trying to read a registry key, or
> what? 


i'm no expert in win32 development/debugging, but installing MSVC++ on a 
home machine let me debug crashing apps really easy.. you mention this 
is a production box though, so thats a tough call.

do you have any sort of firewall on the machine? have you tried shutting 
down all network services(and unplug your lan connection) while 
installing? that may be able to fix the getports error..

HTH

.djc.






From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Wed Nov  7 09:54:35 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:54:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS Questions
In-Reply-To: <3be82f955ef6b1.22233932@redhotsweeps.com>
Message-ID: <200111071556.fA7FuCm12971@mail.swissonline.ch>

> What do the classes below do?  I'm not talking about the border-right or padding-right, but more the IMG within the .sidebar class & the .container within the .sidebar class.  

these are contextual selectors at work. they describe in what context 
the style should be applied, the context of an element being its 
ancestor elements.
 
> .sidebar IMG {
> BORDER-RIGHT: #003366 1px solid
> }
> Does this only apply to IMG tags within the sidebar class?

exactly.
 
> .sidebar .container {
> PADDING-RIGHT: 5px
> }
> Does this only apply to the container class that is nested within the sidebar class?

you got it.

beware: i remember contextual selectors to be unreliable in NN 4.x. i 
think NN doesn't cope with deep nested structures.

N.



From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 09:56:33 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:56:33 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F474@BOOTROS>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBGCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?
width and height yes, but theres not always a need for alt tags.
navigational images - yes of course you need alt tags

as for your validator - in IE it shows and iframe and doesn't use any
script - in NS it uses script i got from dhtmlcentral.com - i have no
problems with it at all - it works - no errors - so - solutions anyone?

maybe the validator doesn't recognise the fact that its got asp detection in
it?
maybe i don't give a monkeys about your comment either!(no offense meant)
IE and NS mac and pc - i haven't got IE 4 installed anywhere - the pc that
did crashed out and had to be rebuilt - unfortunately the fool who did it
didn't build the dam thing how it was supposed to be.

i would like, if anyone has got it - a test run on it with IE 4 on a pc and
NS 6 on a mac - they'er the only 2 browser i haven't got my hands on yet -
and they're the ones im interested in.

cheers

paul

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Jon Haworth
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:17
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


Well, the validator at validator.w3.org reports at least a hundred errors
with the page, mostly to do with missing ALT tags or TYPEs for your scripts.

However there are also </td>, </tr> and </table> tags that don't match up,
which will cause you problems.

Validate your code, *then* get the site check.

Cheers
Jon


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Backhouse [mailto:paul.backhouse at 2cs.com]
Sent: 07 November 2001 11:10
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


rite, im not going back into this debate AGAIN!!!
it works in mozilla on NT - thats a bonus - i happen to like mozilla and
even though im not required to program for it i do like to make sure it
works in mozilla - but thats my personal choice - the company i work for has
a spec - its the line - anything past the line - (a small percentage -
microscopic if the truth be told) are just gonna have to deal with it.

If im asked to program for opera, il program for opera, thats it.

as far as i can see there noubt wrong with the code, be my guest if you want
to find the problem, its pretty simple nested tables with iframe in Ie and
scrollable layers in Ns (which at a guess is probably whats messing up
opera - the scrollable layers - somehow).

if you can see the problem let me know, and if its straight forward il sort
it for you, but im not going to waste my time and i don't think the company
i work for would be too chuffed either.

Rite, you've had your say, ive had mine - thats it, no more...please!!!!

i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

cheers

paul


**********************************************************************
'The information included in this Email is of a confidential nature and is
intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee,
any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be
unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether
inadvertent or otherwise is not intended to waive privilege or
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From pgerenda at visteon.com  Wed Nov  7 09:56:52 2001
From: pgerenda at visteon.com (Gerenday, Perry (P.))
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:56:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <200111071558.fA7FwZj06440@dymwsm12.mailwatch.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Backhouse [mailto:paul.backhouse at 2cs.com]


 
 > On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not 
 > the general public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are
the most
 > percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit 
 > our website is as rare as the dodo.
 

Paul,

I wasn't going to respond when I realized you just wanted to know about IE4
and NN6 on the Mac. Since you say you do want to support Netscape, you might
like to know that your site is crashing my NN 4.04 browser. I tried to view
the site twice and got:

"This program has performed an illegal operation and will shut down." 

Hmmm, maybe it was just a dodo.

Perry Gerenday
www.virtually-artistic.com




From scott at milcap.com  Wed Nov  7 09:57:59 2001
From: scott at milcap.com (Scott Adamson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:57:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
Message-ID: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E54@grety.milcap.com>

Try html-kit, its by far the best editor ive come across in a long time

www.html-kit.com

Its like home site but more flexible (and a lot better) and free

-----Original Message-----
From: sfmalo [mailto:sfmalo at msn.com] 
Sent: 07 November 2001 10:26
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC


Here's the reply from barebones.

Sharon

From: "BBSW Sales Department" <sales at barebones.com>
To: "sfmalo" <sfmalo at msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: BBEdit for the PC


> Hello Sharon:
> 
> Thanks for writing in. At the present time BBEdit is only available 
> for the Mac. Although we have certainly considered doing a Windows 
> version, given the number of substantial technical and operational 
> issues involved, we are very unlikely to offer one in the foreseeable 
> future.
> 
> In the meantime, we do appreciate your interest. Should you have any 
> further questions, or if we can otherwise be of assistance in any way, 
> please do not hesitate to let us know.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Cindy Kalkwarf
> Sales
=================================================================
> Bare Bones Software                     Phone:  781-687-0700
> PO Box 1048                             Fax:    781-687-0711
> Bedford, MA  01730-1048                 http://www.barebones.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services" http://www.24caratdesign.com sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com



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From emagin at onebox.com  Wed Nov  7 09:59:11 2001
From: emagin at onebox.com (Ed)
Date: Wed Nov  7 09:59:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Paypal
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107175436.00a91500@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFGEDJDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>

I find this an interesting issue. I believe Paypal is backed by some pretty
serious financial industry players (Weigel being one, I believe).  I don't
think they are doing this to run a shady operation.

Early on they were repeatedly hacked and attacked by financial hackers and
had to tighten up security.
I wonder if this stealth approach is one to also help improve security, keep
their security guards from getting paid off, etc.

I still belive it's a major concern, so I'm not defending their position,
but just expressing the hunch that they may be doing this on purpose.

 : [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Madhu Menon
 : Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 4:26 AM
 : http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/19/technology/19NECO.html?pagewanted=all
 : There is no street address, phone number or e-mail address
 : listed among the
 : contact information on PayPal's Web site ? just a post office




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 10:08:15 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:08:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <200111071558.fA7FwZj06440@dymwsm12.mailwatch.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHAEBHCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

thanks Perry, il have a look at that now - one question - pc or mac?

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Gerenday, Perry (P.)
Sent: 07 November 2001 15:58
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Backhouse [mailto:paul.backhouse at 2cs.com]



 > On your site maybe, but we have a different target area, not
 > the general public, our stats and records show that IE and NS on PC are
the most
 > percentage hits followed by Mac, seeing an opera browser hit
 > our website is as rare as the dodo.


Paul,

I wasn't going to respond when I realized you just wanted to know about IE4
and NN6 on the Mac. Since you say you do want to support Netscape, you might
like to know that your site is crashing my NN 4.04 browser. I tried to view
the site twice and got:

"This program has performed an illegal operation and will shut down."

Hmmm, maybe it was just a dodo.

Perry Gerenday
www.virtually-artistic.com


---------------------------------------
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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
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From mwallace at bindview.com  Wed Nov  7 10:14:22 2001
From: mwallace at bindview.com (Wallace, Mark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:14:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] Macromedia CF Enterprise setup crash
Message-ID: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287302A43277@BVMAIL>

Good idea. I'll give it a shot nest time I can down the server.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel J. Cody
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Sent: 11/7/01 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Macromedia CF Enterprise setup crash


Wallace, Mark wrote:


> Here's a transcript of my interaction with Macromedia tech support to
date:
> http://www.bindview.com/mmsupport/


ouch.


> Questions: 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a good dll dependency
program? 
> What I'd like to do is run the setup, watch it crash, then find the
> Installshield executable and find which DLLs it's trying to read from.

> I'd also like to be able to do some detective work on what function or
> program is trying to "GetPorts" - is it trying to read a registry key,
or
> what? 


i'm no expert in win32 development/debugging, but installing MSVC++ on a

home machine let me debug crashing apps really easy.. you mention this 
is a production box though, so thats a tough call.

do you have any sort of firewall on the machine? have you tried shutting

down all network services(and unplug your lan connection) while 
installing? that may be able to fix the getports error..

HTH

.djc.




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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
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From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Wed Nov  7 10:24:41 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:24:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBGCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <007601c167a9$2d0dd620$2860398a@newcos.com>

Paul,

> wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?

    Actually, the alt attribute on <img> and <area> elements is one of the
few attributes that are actually *required* by the W3C HTML 4.01
recommendation [1]. If an image doesn't merit descriptive text (e.g., a
transparent gif, a bullet-point image, etc.), you should use an empty string
as the value of the alt attribute, i.e., alt="" (and not alt=" ", as some
might recommend).

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt




From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  7 10:34:41 2001
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:34:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS Questions
Message-ID: <LAW2-F139BmXgRwRWUa000144f0@hotmail.com>

>What do the classes below do?  I'm not talking about the border-right or 
>padding-right, but more the IMG within the .sidebar class & the .container 
>within the .sidebar class.
>
>.sidebar IMG {
>BORDER-RIGHT: #003366 1px solid
>}
>Does this only apply to IMG tags within the sidebar class?

This applies to all IMG tags that are inside any element with 
CLASS="sidebar", so

<DIV CLASS="sidebar"><IMG></DIV>

or even
<BODY CLASS="sidebar"><DIV><IMG></DIV></BODY>

>.sidebar .container {
>PADDING-RIGHT: 5px
>}
>Does this only apply to the container class that is nested within the 
>sidebar class?

This applies to all elements with CLASS="container" that are inside any 
element with a CLASS="sidebar".

Hope this helps,

ppk


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 10:36:43 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:36:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <007601c167a9$2d0dd620$2860398a@newcos.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEBHCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there?

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of MRC
Sent: 07 November 2001 16:28
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check


Paul,

> wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?

    Actually, the alt attribute on <img> and <area> elements is one of the
few attributes that are actually *required* by the W3C HTML 4.01
recommendation [1]. If an image doesn't merit descriptive text (e.g., a
transparent gif, a bullet-point image, etc.), you should use an empty string
as the value of the alt attribute, i.e., alt="" (and not alt=" ", as some
might recommend).

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt


---------------------------------------
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the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From chrism at puffofsmoke.net  Wed Nov  7 10:46:41 2001
From: chrism at puffofsmoke.net (The Optimizer)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:46:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEBHCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBOEEHCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>

Paul

> but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there? [to using alt tags]

[..]

One advantage is that users with images turned off in the browser know where
image links go. Another is that some search engines use alt tags (amongst
other things) to rate sites.

Regards

Chris Marsh




From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Wed Nov  7 10:47:23 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:47:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>

 >but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there?

1. Makes your site more accessible (advantage)
2. Validates properly (advantage)
3. Personal pride in knowing you did the best you could do (advantage)
4. Readability in graphics impaired browsers and WAP devices (advantage)

Hmmmm...no disadvantages except it might take (depending on your coding 
speed) 2-3 additional seconds for each graphic/picture used in a page, and 
that could be reduced on cut-n-paste operations where the same graphic 
(like a transparent GIF) is used over and over.

Heck, I even use a

<tip>Cut-n-Paste Document. Created in your favorite text editor. You can 
include lines of code that you use over and over as we are all prone to 
doing. When you need that line of code flip over to that doc, copy, paste, 
and then modify as required. A great example is;
<img src="../graphics/transparent.gif height="" width="" border="0" alt="">
Just modify the attributes as needed.</tip>

Jay Blanchard




From paul at thereformist.com  Wed Nov  7 10:48:50 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:48:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBGCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <B80EA64E.1310%paul@thereformist.com>

Paul,

Your site looks decent in Netscape 6.2 on Mac. I like the colors and the
liquid layout.

Regarding your structure, I noticed two things that are potentially
confusing:

1) I wasn't sure whether I should be browsing in the popup window or in the
main site, since they both have their own hierarchical structure and
navigation. My instincts were to close the popup and just surf the main,
because I'm so used to popups with annoying ads that I now have a
trigger-finger when it comes to them. I don't think I'm alone in that camp.

2) On your News page, the arrows were not very obvious to me for scrolling
the body text. When I first saw this page, I just thought the blue area at
the bottom was cutting off the text. It took me a minute to figure out I
could scroll the text within the window. You could make this more obvious by
moving the text box up from the blue and possibly adding a border and/or
scroll bar column to the box.

<TWO BITS>
I agree with the others in that you should at least validate your code. It's
kind of like running spell-check on documents--you don't need to, but it's
always a good idea and could catch something you would otherwise miss. You
don't necessarily have to design with Opera in mind, but since it's one of
the most standard-compliant browsers it makes a good litmus test for
checking your code.
</TWO BITS>

Paul Peterson


> From: "Paul Backhouse" <paul.backhouse at 2cs.com>
> 
> i would like, if anyone has got it - a test run on it with IE 4 on a pc and
> NS 6 on a mac - they'er the only 2 browser i haven't got my hands on yet -
> and they're the ones im interested in.





From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com  Wed Nov  7 10:51:11 2001
From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt)
Date: Wed Nov  7 10:51:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEBHCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <3BE966FF.F382ECFA@lightbulbpress.com>

At this point the chief advantage is for blind or sight-impaired users who may
be using a device which converts text-to-speech. By having an Alt tag, a "logo"
image, for instance", would read to them as "Logo", or if you had a gif which
had an ALT of "click "continue" to complete order", that would be spoken tothe
user.

The original use, I believe ,was so that you woulds know what the images were
if they were taking a long time to load, but as connection speeds increae
that's less and less relevant. I believe the ALT tag is one of the requirements
of the "Accessibility" regulations which require all government site to be
usable by the disabled, but someone else probably knows more about this.

Matt

Paul Backhouse wrote:

> but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of MRC
> Sent: 07 November 2001 16:28
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check
>
> Paul,
>
> > wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?
>
>     Actually, the alt attribute on <img> and <area> elements is one of the
> few attributes that are actually *required* by the W3C HTML 4.01
> recommendation [1]. If an image doesn't merit descriptive text (e.g., a
> transparent gif, a bullet-point image, etc.), you should use an empty string
> as the value of the alt attribute, i.e., alt="" (and not alt=" ", as some
> might recommend).
>
> James Aylard
>
> 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From r937 at interlog.com  Wed Nov  7 11:00:03 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:00:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS - Results compiled
Message-ID: <01c167ad$b2b82420$ea4e149a@rudy>

> Didn't see when this was passing around, so
> i'll add some more, which were already sent on evolt
> on this list, to the bottom of this list.

dear jasen, aka professor jj

not to pick on you in particular, but i thought i would remind everyone of
the great subsite we have at evolt called http://dir.evolt.org where we web
developers can collect all the good links such as those in your tip

tips are good but those css links should also be logged in

  http://dir.evolt.org/coding/client-side/css/

the neat part about evolt's directory is that the folks submitting the
links (i.e. us) have no corporate or commercial vested interests and can be
assumed to know which are the good resources

simon, can you grab the links in ron's/profjj's tips and add them?


>by Keith Schengili-Roberts

hey, a blast from the past!  keith was one of my influences in 1995-1996
learning html from a column he had in The Computer Paper, a local toronto
computing newspaper -- a more recent (perhaps largely "repurposed") column
in the Canada Computes paper has archives at
http://www.canadacomputes.com/v3/section/view/1,1297,283,00.html


rudy




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 11:00:45 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:00:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <3BE966FF.F382ECFA@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBJCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

Matt, Paul, Jay, The Optimizer,

thank V.much - this was much more like the constructive help i was after.
I will - form now on use alt tags always - i normally used on all images
that were clickable or of some relevance - but now i will place them on
everything - ta V.much

Paul - i had the same reservations as you - but, i get over powered by the
project managers in these areas and designers - i ve mentioned a few times
about if people will realise - but in fairness - they do look like arrows -
and well - suppose thats supposed to be the bit that makes you try and roll
over them.

The popup issue - me too - sort of a natural reaction now to close all pop
up windows - but thats how the sitewas specifically designed - i like the
way it works - but i can see how its confusing - which window do you look
at??

it supposed to be the pop up one.

thanks V.much for the site check aswell

cheers

paul

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: 07 November 2001 16:53
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check


At this point the chief advantage is for blind or sight-impaired users who
may
be using a device which converts text-to-speech. By having an Alt tag, a
"logo"
image, for instance", would read to them as "Logo", or if you had a gif
which
had an ALT of "click "continue" to complete order", that would be spoken
tothe
user.

The original use, I believe ,was so that you woulds know what the images
were
if they were taking a long time to load, but as connection speeds increae
that's less and less relevant. I believe the ALT tag is one of the
requirements
of the "Accessibility" regulations which require all government site to be
usable by the disabled, but someone else probably knows more about this.

Matt

Paul Backhouse wrote:

> but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of MRC
> Sent: 07 November 2001 16:28
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Site Check
>
> Paul,
>
> > wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?
>
>     Actually, the alt attribute on <img> and <area> elements is one of the
> few attributes that are actually *required* by the W3C HTML 4.01
> recommendation [1]. If an image doesn't merit descriptive text (e.g., a
> transparent gif, a bullet-point image, etc.), you should use an empty
string
> as the value of the alt attribute, i.e., alt="" (and not alt=" ", as some
> might recommend).
>
> James Aylard
>
> 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Wed Nov  7 11:05:35 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:05:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEBHCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <009701c167ae$e3c67890$2860398a@newcos.com>

Paul,

> but why? what advantage/disadvantage is/are there?

    Primarily it's for accessibility -- both for users who rely on screen
readers, and for user agents that don't display graphics or in which
graphics display is turned off. You allow those users to better understand
the content of your pages.
    There is also the added benefit that even users who have graphics
enabled won't have to wait for the graphics to download before they can make
an educated judgment about the content of the page -- especially helpful to
users accessing over dial-up connections.
    Since the alt attribute is required by the HTML 4.x recommendation, I
would also suggest that using it consistently is a mark of professionalism,
though some might disagree.

James Aylard

P.S. - You would make a lot of Evolt's digest readers very happy by
consistently trimming your posts.




From amanda at gawow.com  Wed Nov  7 11:05:45 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:05:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEAPCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <000001c167ae$bfedfce0$62c263d8@75ctt01>

> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge

I haven't read the other responses yet.

I'm on WinME and IE 5.5.

First off, I'm not wild about the pop-up and it's not just because it's
a pop-up. The typical annoying pop-up usually falls into one of two
categories: either its an ad or it is a way for the designer to pen us
into a certain size format. In the latter case, the parent page usually
has little to no information which is what makes yours so confusing. 

It's like you're popping up a mini-site of the site underneath. They
both have similar navigation and have a similar look and style. It's
confusing. I'm going to close the pop-up and ignore it and address the
main window.

First of all, I think the color scheme is really fun. The design in the
background with the squares is really fun to look at. For whatever
reason, though, my eye keeps getting drawn to the right. It could be my
monitor size which makes that big area of blue on the right look so
weighty. Perhaps centering the content would be better?

Also, the information hierarchy is just sort of confusing. Where am I
supposed to start reading? The nav bar is offset slightly at the top
from the rest of the content. It's above the logo which sort of doesn't
work in terms of importance of information. What if you did a grid
pattern where the logo is top left with the text description to its
right. On the next line you have new sites and then the portfolio
buttons. Underneath those, perhaps aligned with the bottom of the blue
is the nav. Just something to try if you want.

And, my last beef on this page is the text at the bottom which is
graphic text. It's fuzzy and too hard to read. This kind of text
(addresses and phone numbers) is *exactly* the kind of text that people
want to copy and paste into their address books, into an email, etc.

I don't mean to trash your site, it has a nice look to it but you just
need to take the polish further and really analyze how you're laying
things out and how clear you're being to your audience.

- amanda

___________________________________
amanda at gawow.com + http://gawow.com 




From dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org  Wed Nov  7 11:08:35 2001
From: dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org (Dulcie Meatheringham)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:08:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] computer power consumption stats
In-Reply-To: <001601c16356$e59b9300$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <NEBBJHDHOLHCLPJKONBNOECCDBAA.dulcie@heritagecommunityfdn.org>

Hi Spinhead,

We had this same question - and then called the power company.  They supply
the local libraries with power consumption kits. You plug your powerbar (or
whatever) into the meter, which plugs into the wall, and get a reading from
that.  The kit comes with all sorts of stuff to help you figure out how much
power you're using and how much it's costing.

I don't know the numbers that came up in our case, but they do consume a
considerable amount.  We leave the server/gateway up 24/7 but shutdown our
computers when not in use.

Best of luck,

Dulcie.
--
Dulcie Meatheringham, Web Projects Coordinator
dulcie at heritagecommunityfdn.org (780) 424-6512, x227
http://www.heritagecommunityfdn.org
Heritage Community Foundation

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of spinhead
> Sent: 01 November, 2001 9:29 PM
> To: thelist
> Subject: [thelist] computer power consumption stats
>
>
> Know of any online info re: how much power a computer uses when
> it's in full
> power-saving mode? Seems the local utility co told my wife that a
> potential
> cause of our larger electric bill is 'increased computer use' and now she
> insists that all machines be shut down every night. Including my server. I
> really need some comparison to a normal household item, e.g. 'in
> power save
> mode, a computer uses the same electricity as a 40 watt light
> bulb' would be
> nice.
>
> spinhead
>
> Okay, so I have 9 computers. That's not excessive is it? It's only 1.5 per
> person.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From evolt at georgedillon.com  Wed Nov  7 11:17:40 2001
From: evolt at georgedillon.com (George Dillon  <> Evolt!)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:17:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
References: <20011107034108.56F3797D@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <000e01c167b0$58d5dbc0$e9122cc3@athlon800>

> wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?

> ... unfortunately the fool who did it
> didn't build the dam thing how it was supposed to be.

>> at least a hundred errors with the page... there are also 
>> </td>, </tr> and </table> tags that don't match up

LOL  

;o)





From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 11:22:45 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:22:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <000001c167ae$bfedfce0$62c263d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBKCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

amanda,
	 the interesting thing is that everything you have pointed out about the
main site is exactly what we wanted you to see:

example
>The navigation is off-set from the Top
instantly you know where the navigation is
>my eye keeps getting drawn to the right,
yep - thats where the content is

essentially you really need to speak to our designer (degrees, ghonours blah
blah) - our copy writers (long history of corporate writing for major
companies, degrees, honours blah blah)
you think along the same line as me - but apparently there a wierd world
that writes stuff wierdly and align images in the point of focus (apparently
1/3 up the page roughly) - thats why the pictures settle on the top of the
orange bit - i think it looks messy - but im not the guy who sorts that bit
out - i have input - but when it comes to that stuff - hell im just the
coder - i ain been to university and studied these areas and i haven't got a
clue what the main focal line on a page is??? i always thought that depended
on what you put on th page - apparently not.

cheers for the reply anyway

paul


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of A. Erickson
Sent: 07 November 2001 17:08
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check



> url: http://www.2cs.com/tradebridge

I haven't read the other responses yet.

I'm on WinME and IE 5.5.

First off, I'm not wild about the pop-up and it's not just because it's
a pop-up. The typical annoying pop-up usually falls into one of two
categories: either its an ad or it is a way for the designer to pen us
into a certain size format. In the latter case, the parent page usually
has little to no information which is what makes yours so confusing.

It's like you're popping up a mini-site of the site underneath. They
both have similar navigation and have a similar look and style. It's
confusing. I'm going to close the pop-up and ignore it and address the
main window.

First of all, I think the color scheme is really fun. The design in the
background with the squares is really fun to look at. For whatever
reason, though, my eye keeps getting drawn to the right. It could be my
monitor size which makes that big area of blue on the right look so
weighty. Perhaps centering the content would be better?

Also, the information hierarchy is just sort of confusing. Where am I
supposed to start reading? The nav bar is offset slightly at the top
from the rest of the content. It's above the logo which sort of doesn't
work in terms of importance of information. What if you did a grid
pattern where the logo is top left with the text description to its
right. On the next line you have new sites and then the portfolio
buttons. Underneath those, perhaps aligned with the bottom of the blue
is the nav. Just something to try if you want.

And, my last beef on this page is the text at the bottom which is
graphic text. It's fuzzy and too hard to read. This kind of text
(addresses and phone numbers) is *exactly* the kind of text that people
want to copy and paste into their address books, into an email, etc.

I don't mean to trash your site, it has a nice look to it but you just
need to take the polish further and really analyze how you're laying
things out and how clear you're being to your audience.

- amanda

___________________________________
amanda at gawow.com + http://gawow.com


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From amanda at gawow.com  Wed Nov  7 11:26:27 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:26:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEBKCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c167b1$a4e30be0$62c263d8@75ctt01>

> amanda,
> 	 the interesting thing is that everything you have 
> pointed out about the main site is exactly what we wanted you to see:
> 
> example
> >The navigation is off-set from the Top
> instantly you know where the navigation is

No. Basically, it is hard to fix on the navigation or even really to
understand it where it is.

> >my eye keeps getting drawn to the right,
> yep - thats where the content is

No. My eye is drawn to an area where there is not content.

> essentially you really need to speak to our designer 
> (degrees, ghonours blah

Quick question and I'm not trying to be annoying here but you asked for
a site check and you got it. Probably the best thing to do would be to
take the feedback you're getting and decide personally and to yourself
what you want to do with it. There's no point in arguing with us. We
don't really care what you do with our ideas.

- amanda




From jackhand at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  7 11:37:41 2001
From: jackhand at hotmail.com (Jack Hand)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:37:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1144JTm06ctb20000c224@hotmail.com>

Amanda,

  An additional point.  And, that is that if he argues
with feedback, the next time he asks for feedback very
few will respond.  And, we always want to keep learning;
which we do with feedback.

      a beginning web designer
      (us lurkers are learning a great deal)

tip: learn from the feedback of others

>From: "A. Erickson" <amanda at gawow.com>
>
>Quick question and I'm not trying to be annoying here but you asked for
>a site check and you got it. Probably the best thing to do would be to
>take the feedback you're getting and decide personally and to yourself
>what you want to do with it. There's no point in arguing with us. We
>don't really care what you do with our ideas.
>
>- amanda


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 11:38:28 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:38:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <000a01c167b1$a4e30be0$62c263d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHOEBKCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

i'm not arguing - i asked for site check in IE 4 on a PC and NS 6 on Mac -
prehaps if you read the previous email correctly you might not have fed me
all this stuff back - because clearly i didn't ask for any of the
information you supplied!


-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of A. Erickson
Sent: 07 November 2001 17:29
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check



> amanda,
> 	 the interesting thing is that everything you have
> pointed out about the main site is exactly what we wanted you to see:
>
> example
> >The navigation is off-set from the Top
> instantly you know where the navigation is

No. Basically, it is hard to fix on the navigation or even really to
understand it where it is.

> >my eye keeps getting drawn to the right,
> yep - thats where the content is

No. My eye is drawn to an area where there is not content.

> essentially you really need to speak to our designer
> (degrees, ghonours blah

Quick question and I'm not trying to be annoying here but you asked for
a site check and you got it. Probably the best thing to do would be to
take the feedback you're getting and decide personally and to yourself
what you want to do with it. There's no point in arguing with us. We
don't really care what you do with our ideas.

- amanda


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Wed Nov  7 11:39:21 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:39:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F1144JTm06ctb20000c224@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBLCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

someone else perhaps who didn't read my first email!
where did i mention i wanted feedback on site content?

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Jack Hand
Sent: 07 November 2001 17:39
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] Site Check


Amanda,

  An additional point.  And, that is that if he argues
with feedback, the next time he asks for feedback very
few will respond.  And, we always want to keep learning;
which we do with feedback.

      a beginning web designer
      (us lurkers are learning a great deal)

tip: learn from the feedback of others

>From: "A. Erickson" <amanda at gawow.com>
>
>Quick question and I'm not trying to be annoying here but you asked for
>a site check and you got it. Probably the best thing to do would be to
>take the feedback you're getting and decide personally and to yourself
>what you want to do with it. There's no point in arguing with us. We
>don't really care what you do with our ideas.
>
>- amanda


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov  7 11:45:43 2001
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:45:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <AE9BEBC586A48B4BA47843C4148B8251010DB7@apollo.ti3.com>

okay guys, let's remember a little professionalism here.

Paul, so you got more than you asked for, is that really a bad thing?
There are some good points in there (especially about using graphics for
text), don't dismiss a design critique because it's not what you asked
for. Pass it along to those that are responsible for those areas, maybe
they'll find some insight in it. --Maybe not, but don't shoot the
messenger.

Design is as much of a 'site check' as anything else. I hope anyone
asking for a 'site check' is expecting more than a syntactical pass/fail
test. --You don't need people for that.

Please keep the design-slanted reviews coming. We need it =)

sgd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Backhouse [mailto:paul.backhouse at 2cs.com]
> 
> i'm not arguing - i asked for site check in IE 4 on a PC and 
> NS 6 on Mac -
> prehaps if you read the previous email correctly you might 
> not have fed me
> all this stuff back - because clearly i didn't ask for any of the
> information you supplied!



From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 11:47:26 2001
From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina)
Date: Wed Nov  7 11:47:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBLCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEEBLCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <9393169811.20011107174908@kfx-design.co.uk>

Paul,

::
> P.S. - You would make a lot of Evolt's digest readers very happy by
> consistently trimming your posts.
::
+1

You _really_ need to read the list rules -

http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/listinfo

(especially)

3. To the best of your ability, keep posts short.

5. When responding to a post, delete all information that is not
strictly necessary. This includes the evolt.org tag line and .sig
files. DELETE ANYTHING YOU'RE NOT SPECIFICALLY RESPONDING TO.

At the very least for the digest members sakes.....

-- 
bfn
 kristina                      

kristina at kfx-design.co.uk


"When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters.
One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity."
-- John F. Kennedy




From michael at tdh-marketing.com  Wed Nov  7 12:01:27 2001
From: michael at tdh-marketing.com (Michael Goddard)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:01:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
Message-ID: <002901c167bd$0fca98a0$4b01a8c0@michael>

Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would like for users on
their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML form and then
have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.

I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right direction".

Thank you,
Michael




From noah at tookish.net  Wed Nov  7 12:06:57 2001
From: noah at tookish.net (noah)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:06:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>

Sorry, this is something that has been bugging me for a while, so I feel 
obliged to weigh in . . .

Regarding having to include alt text on all images,

At 11:53 AM 07/11/2001, jay.blanchard at thermon.com wrote:
>1. Makes your site more accessible (advantage)
>2. Validates properly (advantage)
>3. Personal pride in knowing you did the best you could do (advantage)
>4. Readability in graphics impaired browsers and WAP devices (advantage)

<rant>

If you build a header out of several different images, someone using a 
text-to-speech or text-only browser has to either listen to a long list of 
alt text or look at a jumble of relatively insignificant text at the top of 
the page - I would much prefer to just add alt text to one image, and have 
non-graphical browsers simply ignore the others.

(I know that ideally, using CSS, you shouldn't have to use multiple images, 
but in reality I still find myself needing to, and I'm not 100% sure that 
this need will go away even when CSS2 is well implemented - some designs 
simply require multiple images, especially for the sake of image 
compression - some parts might be better as jpgs, others as gifs)

alt="" is a nasty hack, and by using it, a designer is saying "this image 
doesn't need alt text" - isn't it a fallacy to say that this is okay, and 
yet it's not okay to leave the alt off altogether? The result is exactly 
the same.

It seems to me that the WC3 made the alt text mandatory to force designers 
to make pages that are more accessible and more readable in non-graphical 
browsers. The assumption, though, appears to be that designers won't pay 
attention to accessibility unless they are forced to - rather than being 
told that I have to include alt text, I would much rather be free to make 
my pages as accessible as possible for users of non-graphical browsers by 
using alt text when I want it to appear, and leaving it off of images that 
I think are of absolutely no use to text-to-speech and text only browsers. 
In many cases, I believe that being forced to use alt text diminishes a 
site's accessibility.

alt text belongs on most images; the notion that including it is *always* 
better for accessibility is simply not true, however - we should be able to 
choose which "images" do and do not appear to users of non-graphical browsers.

</rant>

Cheers,

Noah St.Amand
416-452-7840 | 613-549-5394
noah at tookish.net
http://www.tookish.net/




From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Wed Nov  7 12:12:12 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:12:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] Floating Images
Message-ID: <000001c167b9$25888840$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

Is there a simple way to do this? I have a client who would like to have
their company logo present all the time in the lower right corner of the web
pages as they are scrolled. Is there a script that will allow me to do
this?, or better yet, an extension for Dreamweaver for this particular kind
of affect.

Any help is appreciated.

Bob

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01





From websavant at evo.net  Wed Nov  7 12:12:38 2001
From: websavant at evo.net (Kimberly Carroll)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:12:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
In-Reply-To: <002901c167bd$0fca98a0$4b01a8c0@michael>
Message-ID: <B80ED3CB.8C5A%websavant@evo.net>

Michael - take look at lightning fax: http://www.faxserver.com/index2.htm
Kimberly




From me at cgiguy.com  Wed Nov  7 12:13:06 2001
From: me at cgiguy.com (me)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:13:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
References: <002901c167bd$0fca98a0$4b01a8c0@michael>
Message-ID: <034001c167c0$b80fa7a0$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>

michael,

if you only wanted to send text to a fax machine there is
an old program floating around on the web called ssfax

it is a dos utility, or at least it was, but it might have been
ported by now to other os's...

it is a command line utility that can take a text file and
send it to a fax machine. if you are not running your website
or if your client is not running his site off a windows box, its
easy enough to just put the form and the faxing routine on
another box. keep in mind that you'll need a separate modem
for this faxing function. maybe more then one, ??

if ya want it, just go to yahoo and search for ssfax or
ssfaxer. the guy that wrote this program was from some
little town in texas.

a second option might be to look at the dialogic expansion
cards. www.dialogic.com  they have some really nice faxing
options available.

later.

me.



----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Goddard <michael at tdh-marketing.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?


> Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would like for users on
> their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML form and then
> have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.
>
> I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right direction".
>
> Thank you,
> Michael
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From websavant at evo.net  Wed Nov  7 12:18:46 2001
From: websavant at evo.net (Kimberly Carroll)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:18:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>
Message-ID: <B80ED53B.8C5F%websavant@evo.net>

> alt="" is a nasty hack

It is not a nasty hack. Without it, some screen readers will speak "image".
Imagine being the end user and having to hear it say image 10 times.
Or worse, having it say, left side of image 10.gif, right side of image
10.gif.  
> 
> we should be able to choose which "images" do and do not appear to users of
non-graphical browsers.
> 
That is what the " " does for you.




From amanda at gawow.com  Wed Nov  7 12:19:24 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:19:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHOEBKCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <000501c167b9$0a5d9380$62c263d8@75ctt01>

My apologies then.

- amanda

> i'm not arguing - i asked for site check in IE 4 on a PC and 
> NS 6 on Mac - prehaps if you read the previous email 
> correctly you might not have fed me all this stuff back - 
> because clearly i didn't ask for any of the information you supplied!




From susanhw at webcastle.com  Wed Nov  7 12:20:32 2001
From: susanhw at webcastle.com (Susan Wallace)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:20:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
In-Reply-To: <002901c167bd$0fca98a0$4b01a8c0@michael>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107121915.00bee3b0@webcastle.com>

Hi Michael,

There are online services that do this already. Here is one site that I 
have used before (to play with) including a lot of links about their 
services and more information. It's probably not exactly what you need, but 
should at least get you started...

http://www.tpc.int/servers/index.html

HTH,

Susan Wallace

We currently have a client who would like for users on
>their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML form and then
>have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 12:22:42 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:22:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
Message-ID: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>

oops...

hit ctrl-s instead of ctrl-c, sorry:

http://algonquinstudios.com/




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 12:27:38 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:27:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>
Message-ID: <200111071827.fA7IRbjE003705@leo.evolt.org>

> From: noah <noah at tookish.net>
[...] 
> If you build a header out of several different images, someone using a
> text-to-speech or text-only browser has to either listen to a long
> list of alt text or look at a jumble of relatively insignificant text
> at the top of the page - I would much prefer to just add alt text to
> one image, and have non-graphical browsers simply ignore the others.

download Lynx, view that site, read it aloud...

you could also get a browser for the disabled, but Lynx is a good 
one to have for a myriad of reasons...

i'd much rather see a page of:

"Welcome to Foobar"

than:

[IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE]"Welcome to 
Foobar"[IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE
][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE]

and if that can be achieved by using (valid and correct) empty alt 
attributes in all my image tags, then you can be darn sure i'm 
going to include them...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 12:34:44 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:34:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
Message-ID: <200111071834.fA7IYhjE003408@leo.evolt.org>

now's your chance... you've seen me evangalizing on this list 
forever while rarely ponying up examples (although quite a lot of 
you have looked on your own)... i've just launched our new 
corporate site, and i'm looking for some input...

now, the notes:

- 90+% of our users come in on IE5+/wintel... that being said, the 
code and style targets 5.x+ browsers, but is supposed to degrade 
reasonably well to older browsers... there are *many* known bugs 
in NN4.x...

- liquid site, down to 640, except for the case study pages (my 
fault)...

- home page randomly displays one of 11 case studies, and some 
pages also show case study links as well when there is no 
secondary nav... reloading those pages will/should result in 
different images and copy...

- technical articles hose the layout, still debating stuffing code 
snippets into textareas like we've done on evolt...

- not a very deep site, mostly a place on the web to show some of 
our work...

- design goals included: site as canvas to display case studies, 
corporate clean-cut, but still show some design ability, different 
templates for each type of page (content, articles, case study, 
home), usable, accessible, show off new logo, hip...

ultimately i have a list of things to do on the site (some NN4.x 
fixes, pull some CSS from the templates and stuff it into the CSS 
file, get rid of HTML styling altogether, etc.), but before i do that, 
looking for more input on the design aspect...

you can comment on the code if you want, but i'm really focusing 
on design, since feedback would alter the code anyway...





From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Wed Nov  7 12:35:03 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:35:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107122615.00a9e008@pop.gvtc.com>

<snip>
alt="" is a nasty hack, and by using it, a designer is saying "this image
doesn't need alt text" - isn't it a fallacy to say that this is okay, and
yet it's not okay to leave the alt off altogether? The result is exactly
the same.
</snip>

May be a nasty hack, but the image does not need alt text for whatever 
reason. Images with a blank alt attribute are skipped by text-to-speech, 
WAP, and browsers who have images turned off. The alt attribute is 
encouraged by W3C requirement, and given the accessibility issues which are 
gaining more and more steam every day is it any more hair off of my back to 
include an empty attribute? Closing tags (in XHTML) will probably get the 
same response as alt attributes...

<snip #2>
In many cases, I believe that being forced to use alt text diminishes a
site's accessibility.
</snip>

How can "being forced" to use the alt attribute diminish a site's 
accessibility? I am missing your logic here completely.

<snip #3>
alt text belongs on most images; the notion that including it is *always*
better for accessibility is simply not true, however - we should be able to
choose which "images" do and do not appear to users of non-graphical browsers.
</snip>

And how does the alt attribute keep you from choosing which images do or do 
not appear to users of non-graphical browsers?

I recently met a guy who wanted to be compliant with everything, so he put 
alt="blank" in each and every transparent GIF, background image, etc.! I 
"played" his site for him in a text-to-speech browser. It was pretty funny, 
and the reaction he had was priceless! It was as if the site were cursing! :)

Jay Blanchard




From noah at tookish.net  Wed Nov  7 12:36:11 2001
From: noah at tookish.net (noah)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:36:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <200111071827.fA7IRbjE003705@leo.evolt.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107133239.0233fba0@tookish.net>

At 01:29 PM 07/11/2001, aardvark wrote:

>download Lynx, view that site, read it aloud...
>
>you could also get a browser for the disabled, but Lynx is a good
>one to have for a myriad of reasons...
>
>i'd much rather see a page of:
>
>"Welcome to Foobar"
>
>than:
>
>[IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE]"Welcome to
>Foobar"[IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE
>][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE][IMAGE]
>
>and if that can be achieved by using (valid and correct) empty alt
>attributes in all my image tags, then you can be darn sure i'm
>going to include them...

I see . . . I guess I'll shift my frustration away from the W3C and towards 
the browser makers - it just seems to me that if a browser can not display 
an image, and there's no alt text, it should ignore the image altogether, 
and display nothing.

I can't think of a single circumstance in which a browser telling you 
[IMAGE] is of any use whatsoever, and it seems a little silly to me that we 
have to include extra code in every image tag to avoid this.

Cheers,
Noah.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 12:41:00 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:41:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107133239.0233fba0@tookish.net>
References: <200111071827.fA7IRbjE003705@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111071840.fA7IexjE004452@leo.evolt.org>

> From: noah <noah at tookish.net>
> 
> I see . . . I guess I'll shift my frustration away from the W3C and
> towards the browser makers - it just seems to me that if a browser can
> not display an image, and there's no alt text, it should ignore the
> image altogether, and display nothing.

except in the old days of the web, when people used images as 
links, and there was no other way for the text browsers -- which 
were still pervasive -- to navigate... 

> I can't think of a single circumstance in which a browser telling you
> [IMAGE] is of any use whatsoever, and it seems a little silly to me
> that we have to include extra code in every image tag to avoid this.

in the case of navigation or image maps, it is useful... also when i 
know there's a photo there, i can have Lynx grab it and view it 
offline...




From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 12:45:37 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:45:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
References: <002901c167bd$0fca98a0$4b01a8c0@michael>
Message-ID: <000701c167bc$86910c90$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

A friend just set up a fax machine that can send and receive e-mailed faxes,
so if the results were PDFed or something, this would work. It might have
other capabilities as well. What you want to do is definitely possible
(sorry I don't have more details.)

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Goddard" <michael at tdh-marketing.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?


> Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would like for users on
> their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML form and then
> have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.
>
> I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right direction".
>
> Thank you,
> Michael
>
>




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Wed Nov  7 12:48:18 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:48:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>
Message-ID: <002201c167bd$3d55fd50$2860398a@newcos.com>

Noah,

> alt="" is a nasty hack, and by using it, a designer is saying "this image
> doesn't need alt text" - isn't it a fallacy to say that this is okay, and
> yet it's not okay to leave the alt off altogether? The result is exactly
> the same.

    Actually, using alt="" is not a hack at all -- the W3C itself actually
recommends the practice:

"Do not specify irrelevant alternate text when including images intended to
format a page, for instance, alt="red ball" would be inappropriate for an
image that adds a red ball for decorating a heading or paragraph. In such
cases, the alternate text should be the empty string (""). Authors are in
any case advised to avoid using images to format pages; style sheets should
be used instead." [1]

    The only drawbacks with it that I see are that 1) it requires a small
amount of additional coding effort, and 2) it adds 7 bytes to each image
element.

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-alt




From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Wed Nov  7 12:53:24 2001
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:53:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] Floating Images
In-Reply-To: <000001c167b9$25888840$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <00e201c167be$59adbcd0$6601a8c0@mylittledomain.internal>

http://www.siteexperts.com/dhtmllib/demos/float/float2.asp

FYI, I'd like to think I invented this. A few years back the company I
worked for was asked to develop a timeline for Netscape.com. The
timeline was in a middle frame that was quite wide horizontally. I
designed a DHMLT menu that would keep in place as you scrolled left and
right. I had never seen anything like that before, but it was actually
pretty easy to do. I rewrote it to be cross platform, and even had it
wrapped up in a simple CFML custom tag, until.... issues with my company
made me remove the tag.

I've got an example that uses simular techniques on my home page,
www.camdenfamily.com/morpheus. (Excuse the design, I'm a coder, not an
artist. ;)

(P.S. I may _not_ be the person who invented this technique, so don't
jump on me if I'm wrong.)

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia

Email    : jedimaster at macromedia.com
Yahoo IM : morpheus

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Bob Boisvert
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 1:22 PM
> To: Thelist (E-mail)
> Subject: [thelist] Floating Images
> 
> 
> Is there a simple way to do this? I have a client who would 
> like to have
> their company logo present all the time in the lower right 
> corner of the web
> pages as they are scrolled. Is there a script that will allow me to do
> this?, or better yet, an extension for Dreamweaver for this 
> particular kind
> of affect.
> 
> Any help is appreciated.
> 
> Bob
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From amanda at gawow.com  Wed Nov  7 12:55:31 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:55:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <200111071834.fA7IYhjE003408@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <000001c167be$161c86e0$62c263d8@75ctt01>

Site crit: http://algonquinstudios.com/

Well, this site blows.

Just kidding.

Actually, on first glance, I really dig that opening screen. The color
here and there is really nice since you have set up this sort of stark
landscape of blacks and whites. I almost want to put that screenshot on
the right to help with balance (not bopping back and forth from each bit
of color -- moving=good, bopping=bad) but I think it could stay there
okay. 

The screenshot itself is pretty fun -- I like the idea of playing with
that shape. It definitely makes it more interesting. I'm gonna click on
it....

Which takes me to Great Arrow Graphics. One quick thing that I notice is
that on my monitor, the navigation uses a square to show where you are.
This square is on 'clients' and is about fifteen pixels offset from the
grey box that outlines the left sidebar area. It looks like a mistake. I
might suggest a different "you are here" treatment to make it slicker.
Maybe a two-toned circle next to the nav button that mimics the circle
in your logo? (Tell me if you want a screenshot.) You could also ditch
the delineation of that sidebar color and just use space and type to
separate the main content from the left side content. Shimmy that
screenshot up near the page headline and you'll have a pretty swank
layout, I think.

On that same page, I notice that the screenshots are to the right of
their caption. Because of the liquid layout, the captions in their small
font are hard to read because of the line length. If I make my browser
window smaller then it's more readable. Here's what I see: small font,
long lines, right-aligned. Some suggestions would be: bigger font --
might as well match the paragraph text, I think people will know the
difference; move the screenshot to the left so that your eye goes 1.
screenshot, 2. first line of caption, because the eye goes to the shot
anyway, it's harder to find the first part of the line.

Going now to 'principles' to see if there's a smokin' aardvark pic.

Well, there is a pic and there's smoke. Hm. 

One thing I'd say about those little images is to make them faces. They
don't look interesting. Faces look more interesting.

And then, on the top left of the page you have a screenshot of
something. I know what you're trying to do here which is to move people
to the portfolio section. However, it seems to me that that piece has
something to do with the page that I'm on. I'd either toss it or change
it. It either needs some sort of identifying headline, or the treatment
we saw at the beginning (perspective slant) or, preferably, both. 

One last final note, the overall look of the sub-pages might be improved
if you had the same size border on the top and sides. As I see it, the
borders on the side around around lets say 50 pix whereas the top border
is something like 10 or 15. Maybe you could find a happy middle ground
and see what it looks like. It might give a pretty snazzy design even
more snap.

Kisses,
amanda




From noah at tookish.net  Wed Nov  7 12:56:03 2001
From: noah at tookish.net (noah)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:56:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <200111071840.fA7IexjE004452@leo.evolt.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107133239.0233fba0@tookish.net>
 <200111071827.fA7IRbjE003705@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107134711.02348380@tookish.net>

At 01:42 PM 07/11/2001, you wrote:
> > From: noah <noah at tookish.net>
> >
> > I see . . . I guess I'll shift my frustration away from the W3C and
> > towards the browser makers - it just seems to me that if a browser can
> > not display an image, and there's no alt text, it should ignore the
> > image altogether, and display nothing.
>
>except in the old days of the web, when people used images as
>links, and there was no other way for the text browsers -- which
>were still pervasive -- to navigate...
>
> > I can't think of a single circumstance in which a browser telling you
> > [IMAGE] is of any use whatsoever, and it seems a little silly to me
> > that we have to include extra code in every image tag to avoid this.
>
>in the case of navigation or image maps, it is useful... also when i
>know there's a photo there, i can have Lynx grab it and view it
>offline...

Aside from your last point about grabbing images and viewing them offline, 
these come back to my original point that the reason that the alt is 
required is that designers aren't trusted to put it in where it belongs. If 
we were trusted to put alt text on images that are required for navigation, 
then the [IMAGE] thing would never have been necessary.

I've just realized that the above argument is based on the presumption that 
web developers are, as a general rule, competent. Looking over a site that 
I was just contracted to redesign (<meta name="generator" content="Adobe 
GoLive 4">), I realize the foolishness of this assumption, and concede.

I still think having to include alt="" is silly, but I guess it is a 
necessary evil

Cheers,
Noah




From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 12:57:04 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:57:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
References: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <003301c167be$0d9dff30$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Beautiful. I love greys anyway, and you've used them well. (Occasionally,
some text is just a bit difficult to read, but it's not extreme.) The layout
and navigation seemed natural; I felt at home right away. The colors and
layout almost made me think I was at Adobe's site - nothing copied or
derivative; just a similar feel - big corporate knowhow with real people
behind it (don't know why I feel that way about Adobe's site, but yours
feels the same.)

I wandered off to Rhea Anna's site and fell in love with it. The 'Colored
Musicians Club' presentation is fabulous; colors, layout, especially (of
course) the photos.

Nice work, all of it.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:24 AM
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
-s instead of ctrl-c, sorry:
>
> http://algonquinstudios.com/
>
>




From sgd at ti3.com  Wed Nov  7 12:58:15 2001
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Wed Nov  7 12:58:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
Message-ID: <AE9BEBC586A48B4BA47843C4148B82511D01A8@apollo.ti3.com>

 
> 
> > Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would 
> like for users on
> > their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple 
> HTML form and then
> > have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.
> >
> > I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right direction".
> >

We (work) fax out stuff all the time, and the process goes like this:
convert from text to ps to group 3 tiff and then send. As far as the
software used, we use some custom scripting around some linux-based fax
software (the scripting takes care of retries, archiving, etc). I'm
sorry I don't know the low-level package name (Dan?), but that's the
hoops we go through....

hth (somewhat)
sgd



From anything at jaxn.org  Wed Nov  7 13:02:21 2001
From: anything at jaxn.org (Jackson Miller)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:02:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107133239.0233fba0@tookish.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDMPJNOCKDPAHEFFMEMICOAA.anything@jaxn.org>

<quote>
I can't think of a single circumstance in which a browser telling you
[IMAGE] is of any use whatsoever, and it seems a little silly to me that we
have to include extra code in every image tag to avoid this.
</quote>

When an image is part of the site navigation, that [IMAGE] become part of
the navigation.  If you don't include the alt attribute people on
non-graphical browsers (which includes people who can not see well enough to
suft the web), then they will have no way to navigate your site.

If the image is not part of navigation then the alt (empty or with text of
your choosing) tag (empty or with text of your choosing) will prevent them
from having to sort through all of the [IMAGE].

If you are designing sites for your users, include the alt tag.




From paul at thereformist.com  Wed Nov  7 13:08:05 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:08:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107123835.00a02dc0@tookish.net>
Message-ID: <B80EC6F5.1328%paul@thereformist.com>

My rant response...

> From: noah <noah at tookish.net>
> 
> alt="" is a nasty hack, and by using it, a designer is saying "this image
> doesn't need alt text" - isn't it a fallacy to say that this is okay, and
> yet it's not okay to leave the alt off altogether? The result is exactly
> the same.

I would hesitate to call ALT="" a hack and unnecessary. It's important to
understand the reason for and proper usage of ALT tags.

Obviously, people viewing sites with graphical browsers have an aesthetic
advantage over those using text-only browsers. Designers should feel free to
create distinctive presentations which exploit the graphical medium.
However, those who for whatever reason don't want to or can't view images
should have just as much opportunity to access information in a usable
fashion. After all, isn't that why the Web was originally created?

Designers who do "give a monkey's" about the precision and accessability of
their work will code to validation. Currently, the required standard is that
all IMG tags contain ALT attributes. But why should they, since many so many
graphics are merely "window dressing" and have no bearing on content? Well,
because validators are stupid--none can determine between a critical and a
filler image. So the lowest common denominator prevails.

Does this mean therefore that we should have to name ALL our images,
regardless of their function (or lack thereof)? Of course not. In fact,
including ALT values for every image could hinder rather than help the text
browser (try reading FOOBAR LOGO BULLET ABOUT FOOBAR BULLET CONTACT FOOBAR
FOOBAR LOGO). And many designers believe ALT tags should be descriptive, but
that is not the intent. They should be *functionary*.

How do we make sense of all this? By compromising: use ALT="" for images
which can be ignored, and be creative with your values for images which
serve a simple function (e.g. ALT="[*]" for bullet images).

Paul Peterson





From nicole at parrot.ca  Wed Nov  7 13:10:58 2001
From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:10:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good recommendations on chat room packages
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106213314.00b9fe08@redhotsweeps.com> <p05010400b80ee22749cd@[207.20.86.107]>
Message-ID: <010601c167c0$34218bc0$0429ca18@nparrot>

I'm partial to chatspace myself but it only runs on NT

 http://chatspace.com/products/commserv/prodinfo/index.cfm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura J. Rinaldi" <rinaldi at ihwy.com>
> Does anyone know any good chat room packages? I have a client who 
> wants chat rooms on his website.
> I don't want to build it from scratch.





From JOHN.PEARSON at eia.doe.gov  Wed Nov  7 13:12:34 2001
From: JOHN.PEARSON at eia.doe.gov (Pearson, John)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:12:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
Message-ID: <17F756AE56719-01@Department_of_Energy_E-Mail_Security_Server>

http://manuals.sharecom.ca/ssfax/

-----Original Message-----
From: me at cgiguy.com [mailto:me at cgiguy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 2:17 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Cc: michael at tdh-marketing.com
Subject: Re: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?


michael,

if you only wanted to send text to a fax machine there is
an old program floating around on the web called ssfax

it is a dos utility, or at least it was, but it might have been
ported by now to other os's...

it is a command line utility that can take a text file and
send it to a fax machine. if you are not running your website
or if your client is not running his site off a windows box, its
easy enough to just put the form and the faxing routine on
another box. keep in mind that you'll need a separate modem
for this faxing function. maybe more then one, ??

if ya want it, just go to yahoo and search for ssfax or
ssfaxer. the guy that wrote this program was from some
little town in texas.

a second option might be to look at the dialogic expansion
cards. www.dialogic.com  they have some really nice faxing
options available.

later.

me.



----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Goddard <michael at tdh-marketing.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?


> Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would like for users on
> their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML form and then
> have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.
>
> I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right direction".
>
> Thank you,
> Michael
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 13:17:08 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:17:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107134711.02348380@tookish.net>
References: <200111071840.fA7IexjE004452@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111071917.fA7JH7jE007035@leo.evolt.org>

> From: noah <noah at tookish.net>
[...] 
> I've just realized that the above argument is based on the presumption
> that web developers are, as a general rule, competent. Looking over a
> site that I was just contracted to redesign (<meta name="generator"
> content="Adobe GoLive 4">), I realize the foolishness of this
> assumption, and concede.

i've made that mistake a lot, too... i hate to say it, but competence 
can be lacking in too many cases...

like mine....

(note earlier email where i forgot to include URL)




From webguru at vsnl.net  Wed Nov  7 13:21:54 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:21:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <20011107183558.92D5EC04C@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108004216.02895370@203.197.12.4>

At 12:05 AM 11/8/2001, you wrote:
>5. When responding to a post, delete all information that is not
>strictly necessary. This includes the evolt.org tag line and .sig
>files. DELETE ANYTHING YOU'RE NOT SPECIFICALLY RESPONDING TO.
>
>At the very least for the digest members sakes.....

Amen. I had posted a request about this a week or so back. I hate scrolling 
through long lines of ten previous quoted messages to get to the next 
message. If you're responding only to one line from a message, quote ONLY 
that line.

I'm afraid Outlook's default moronic behaviour is also partially 
responsible. Instead of using the ">" quote character, it prefers to use 
the "Original message <carriage return> ------------------- [rest of 
message]" format. Bugger!

And Paul, it's not just what you say, but also how you say it that matters. 
You've just lowered the chances of someone else helping you out in the 
future with your tone. Let me quote some of what you wrote:

>someone else perhaps who didn't read my first email!
>where did i mention i wanted feedback on site content?

Ouch! That sounds to me like "You moron! Can't you read? If you did, why 
are you bugging me?".

Instead, you *could* have rephrased it like this:

"Thanks for all the design and content-related feedback. While I'm not the 
guy who handles those departments, I'll try and pass it on to those who do."

The people who gave you feedback are doing so selflessly. They have nothing 
to gain from it. So, take it in the spirit of comaraderie in which it's 
given. That's what makes this place so great.

Sincerely,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From taracc at home.com  Wed Nov  7 13:37:46 2001
From: taracc at home.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Wed Nov  7 13:37:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] [OT] Toronto Beervolt
Message-ID: <3BE98EC9.3D12137D@home.com>

Hi all,

So far, these are the people that have said they will come to the
Toronto Beervolt this Friday, 8ish at the Bishop and Belcher (map at
http://members.home.com/taracc/map.html ). I'm going to reserve a table
and I'll put up a sign on the table so you'll all know who we are (Rudy,
can you wear your <body> shirt?) If there are any other people who would
like to come, let me know.

Nat - maybe
Michele Foster
Rudy
sasa kulic
Bryce Johnson
Me!

I can't think of a tip. I'll pay back later. I promise.

Tara Cleveland





From webguru at vsnl.net  Wed Nov  7 14:06:51 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:06:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] Amazon design change - again
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108013703.028f04d0@203.197.12.4>

I just noticed that the Amazon search results page has switched to a 
tabs-style design like the earlier book details design change (which was 
later abandoned). This time, it seems to be for all products. Wonder if 
experiment no. 2 will work.

Hey, check out the "Categorised results" tab. Pretty cool!

I'm going to take full scrolling screenshots right now before it disappears :)

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu  Wed Nov  7 14:07:42 2001
From: v7ac at sdsumus.sdstate.edu (Minh Lee Goon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:07:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] XML and DHTML book recommendations
Message-ID: <3BE9957E.260D14B9@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>

Evolt,
I'm looking to start experimenting with XML and DHTML. I know there are
experts out there, so I'm asking if you would recommend some references
on either or both topics. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks.

Minh Lee Goon
-------------
Web Administrator
Information Technology Services
South Dakota State University
Brookings, South Dakota



From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 14:21:59 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:21:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
In-Reply-To: <003301c167be$0d9dff30$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <200111072021.fA7KLwjE009624@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "spinhead" <evolt at spinhead.com>
>
> Beautiful. I love greys anyway, and you've used them well.
> (Occasionally, some text is just a bit difficult to read, but it's not

any cases you can think of where it was tough?

> extreme.) The layout and navigation seemed natural; I felt at home
> right away. The colors and layout almost made me think I was at
> Adobe's site - nothing copied or derivative; just a similar feel - big
> corporate knowhow with real people behind it (don't know why I feel
> that way about Adobe's site, but yours feels the same.)

interesting... it never ocurred to me that it had any connection like 
that... in fact, i was trying to avoid that kind of stuff (feeling like 
other sites), but it sounds like it's more of an overall 'feel' than 
specific elements/colors...

> I wandered off to Rhea Anna's site and fell in love with it. The
> 'Colored Musicians Club' presentation is fabulous; colors, layout,
> especially (of course) the photos.

yeah, she's a spectacular photographer... we've got a *lot* of her 
work hanging in our office... you should see the prints... the 
Colored Musician's Club photos are right outside my office...



From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 14:22:03 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:22:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <000001c167be$161c86e0$62c263d8@75ctt01>
References: <200111071834.fA7IYhjE003408@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111072021.fA7KLxjE009628@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "A. Erickson" <amanda at gawow.com>
>
> Site crit: http://algonquinstudios.com/
> 
> Well, this site blows.

"i didn't think it was possible, but it both blows *and* sucks..."

> Just kidding.

damn...

> Actually, on first glance, I really dig that opening screen. The color
> here and there is really nice since you have set up this sort of stark
> landscape of blacks and whites. I almost want to put that screenshot
> on the right to help with balance (not bopping back and forth from
> each bit of color -- moving=good, bopping=bad) but I think it could
> stay there okay. 

i actually kept it on the left because of the balance... the keyboard 
key seemed to be too heavy, and the rest of the page too light... 
*if* i did change it, though, i think i'd have to face the screen cap 
back the other way so it still looks into the page...

> The screenshot itself is pretty fun -- I like the idea of playing with
> that shape. It definitely makes it more interesting. I'm gonna click
> on it....

good -- i want the screen caps to suck you in...

> Which takes me to Great Arrow Graphics. One quick thing that I notice
> is that on my monitor, the navigation uses a square to show where you
> are. This square is on 'clients' and is about fifteen pixels offset
> from the grey box that outlines the left sidebar area. It looks like a

ok, i see that... oddly, i wasn't trying to anchor the nav onto 
anything... but i guess that doesn't feel that way....

> mistake. I might suggest a different "you are here" treatment to make
> it slicker. Maybe a two-toned circle next to the nav button that
> mimics the circle in your logo? (Tell me if you want a screenshot.)

i'd be down with that... unfortunately, one of the technical 
requirements i had was to have *completely* text-based nav... now, 
a little image wouldn't hurt too much, but i'd have to see it...

> You could also ditch the delineation of that sidebar color and just
> use space and type to separate the main content from the left side
> content. Shimmy that screenshot up near the page headline and you'll
> have a pretty swank layout, I think.

hmmm... interesting... that's worth trying... i'll have to not cut off 
the one logo bg, though...

> On that same page, I notice that the screenshots are to the right of
> their caption. Because of the liquid layout, the captions in their
> small font are hard to read because of the line length. If I make my

i was trying to keep the background image unobscured...

> browser window smaller then it's more readable. Here's what I see:
> small font, long lines, right-aligned. Some suggestions would be:
> bigger font -- might as well match the paragraph text, I think people
> will know the difference; move the screenshot to the left so that your
> eye goes 1. screenshot, 2. first line of caption, because the eye goes
> to the shot anyway, it's harder to find the first part of the line.

hmm... hafta play... that part of the layout is vestigial from the old 
site, probably not a good idea...

> Going now to 'principles' to see if there's a smokin' aardvark pic.
> 
> Well, there is a pic and there's smoke. Hm. 
> 
> One thing I'd say about those little images is to make them faces.
> They don't look interesting. Faces look more interesting.

ahhhh... those are an old joke i carried over... most people never 
click on them, and those who do don't get the joke (the images are 
done in the style of an ad campaign promoting buffalo, but with our 
favorite UT boards as backgrounds)... easter eggs, if you will...

> And then, on the top left of the page you have a screenshot of
> something. I know what you're trying to do here which is to move
> people to the portfolio section. However, it seems to me that that
> piece has something to do with the page that I'm on. I'd either toss
> it or change it. It either needs some sort of identifying headline, or
> the treatment we saw at the beginning (perspective slant) or,
> preferably, both. 

the perspective felt too overused there... i wanted it to be more 
matter-of-fact... i think a headline might be good, but i fear that will 
remove the exploration/discovery effect i wanted...

> One last final note, the overall look of the sub-pages might be
> improved if you had the same size border on the top and sides. As I
> see it, the borders on the side around around lets say 50 pix whereas
> the top border is something like 10 or 15. Maybe you could find a
> happy middle ground and see what it looks like. It might give a pretty
> snazzy design even more snap.

i'll play... good idea...

thanks...




From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Wed Nov  7 14:25:55 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:25:55 2001
Subject: [thelist] Opinion and advice wanted
Message-ID: <000501c167cb$d5abe980$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

Thanks to all who replied to the previous email about floating images...Was
very helpful!

This may be a silly question but my head just isn't working right after the
pounding my children gave me today. If any of you have twins, you know what
I mean...

I'm actually looking for some advice on approaching the design now.  The
page layout on this site I'm working on is going to be pretty much the same
on every page with exception to the content.

The pages will have a masthead, a floating logo, and a 9 link text menu on
the left. The page is using tables for both masthead and the text menu.
There will be external links also.  Which would be correct, to set this up
as CSS or a SSI for basic page layout, or is neither of these the right
option.  My assumption is that viewers of the web site will either have IE4
or higher and Netscape 4 or higher.

The web site is for a news station.

Thanks,
Bob

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01





From BKing at Impact-Technologies.com  Wed Nov  7 14:31:48 2001
From: BKing at Impact-Technologies.com (Brian King)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:31:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B78491371632ED@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717563D@ITG_B02>

You know your in trouble when the first job posted in the careers section of
the site you just finished... is for a web developer :)



-----Original Message-----
From: aardvark
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)

now's your chance... you've seen me evangalizing on this list
forever while rarely ponying up examples (although quite a lot of
you have looked on your own)... i've just launched our new
corporate site, and i'm looking for some input...




From webguru at vsnl.net  Wed Nov  7 14:33:13 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:33:13 2001
Subject: [thelist] Asking newbie questions
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4>

Folks,

We've been having a discussion on theforum about getting more 
"design"-related discussions on thelist. We know there are a lot of visual 
designers on thelist who might be lurking, afraid or unsure of whether to 
ask their questions, seeing how thelist can sometimes (though not always) 
appear like it's full of only programmers.

I assure you that it's not the case and that we encourage any level of 
questions here. Nothing is "too silly".

In fact, spinhead asked this question on theforum:

>Madhu, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'd love to see more of, but when
>it comes to design, I'm so ignerrunt I don't even know what QUESTIONS to
>ask. This list will give me a place to start (if I EVER design a public site
>again.)

to which I replied:

<quote>

Spinhead,

Like I said earlier, *everyone* was a newbie at some stage. I didn't pop 
out of my mum's womb with writing skills in me. :)

Heck, I used to do stupid things like underline text 7-8 years back. Now I 
know better (in case you're wondering, it destroys readability by making 
the word appear rectangular - and people make out words by the shape of the 
letters).

Watch for the next time someone makes a remark like "the brown and hot pink 
colours don't go well on the [xyz] site". Then see if you agree with them. 
If you don't, ask a question like "but why don't those colours work? I 
think they're cool". At this point, someone will probably explain a bit 
about colour theory and what different colours symbolise. They may even 
point you to a site with a tutorial on the topic. Now you know a bit more. 
Rinse, repeat till you reach desired level of expertise.

And to help you on your journey, visit: 
http://www.mundidesign.com/presentation/index2.html

Download the presentation and go through it. Some of the graphic design 
fundamentals are explained well.

</quote>

I hope this starts off some interesting discussions. We'd like to see more 
discussions on the following topics:

1) Layout
2) Colour schemes
3) Typography
4) Information architecture
5) Usability
6) Site strategy
7) Web marketing
8) Content development (do you realise how few discussions we've had on the 
copy used on a site?)
9) Production techniques and processes (naming conventions to Photoshop 
tips to site maintenance included)
10) Interface design
11) The business of web development (Dealing with clients, writing 
proposals, etc.)

All your thoughts are welcome. Go on, get out of lurker mode. Show 
yourselves. ;)

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From mail at richardinfo.com  Wed Nov  7 14:38:40 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:38:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
References: <200111071834.fA7IYhjE003408@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <052201c167c3$372ffce0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
Design-wise it looks really nice.
One major problem is I can't resize the text with my browsers settings, so I
can't read it at all on my 1280*1024 monitor (especially the darkgray on
nice contrasting lighter gray background)
I have to drag it over to my 800*600 monitor to read it.

Now my eyelids have finally stopped twitching after setting the monitor
refreshrate to 85 , I don't want to strain them more than necessary :o)

I really like the way the code degrades to older browsers - IE4 works very
well - NS4 is ok too. Maybe you could set the menubar linkcolor to white in
NS4, as it now shows blue on black.

Nice site.
Richard.


----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 14:40:42 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:40:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717563D@ITG_B02>
References: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B78491371632ED@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <200111072040.fA7KefjE011066@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Brian King" <BKing at Impact-Technologies.com>
>
> You know your in trouble when the first job posted in the careers
> section of the site you just finished... is for a web developer :)

does that mean i can expect a resume?

actually, that's been filled (by 4 people, response was good), but 
we're always looking...




From crsaila at yahoo.ca  Wed Nov  7 14:44:15 2001
From: crsaila at yahoo.ca (Craig Saila)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:44:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
References: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BE99DC5.4050405@yahoo.ca>

aardvark wrote:

 > http://algonquinstudios.com/

Very nice work, great use of CSS and background images.

One really minor thing in Mozilla (0.9.5) on Win2K the logo in the top 
left has a white line just above the black nav bar, thus breaking the 
circle.

I think this is tied to how Mozilla (properly) renders images in table 
cells as inline images (which creates a but of extra space between 
vertically ajoining cells).

Try setting the image to display: block and the probably should resolve 
itself.

-- 
Cheers,

Craig Saila
------------------------------------------
craig at saila.com  :  http://www.saila.com/
------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From davidm at alb.edu  Wed Nov  7 14:45:54 2001
From: davidm at alb.edu (Dave Markowski)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:45:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] OT: Enigma-3 site designers
Message-ID: <3BE955E6.1563.1A271B8@localhost>

Okay, OT, but with such a great and diverse crowd on here, I thought I'd 
ask anyway...a few years back the band Enigma released Enigma3 and 
also launched a very cool website which used to be enigma-3.com. The 
index page of the site was black with a flickering candle in the middle.  I 
remember literally spending hours just looking at all there was to look at 
on it. I think it was launched in either 1996 or 1997. Does anyone out 
there know who designed the site? I would like to get ahold of them.

Thanks for any help or leads!
Dave Markowski
Web Manager
Albright College
Reading, PA

<tip>Still using cgi/perl for your form submittal? It's a pain hacking that 
code. Try php instead. Php embeds right into your html, much like asp 
and is totally cross platform and open source.</tip>

<tip>In Photoshop 6, when using the Save for Web option, try playing 
around with all of the adjustments the program allows you to make in the 
resulting dialog box. You can save your users a lot of download time and 
not sacrifice image quality</tip>



From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  7 14:47:06 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:47:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
In-Reply-To: <034001c167c0$b80fa7a0$76f8c1cf@d5m2x3>
Message-ID: <20011107204853.24334.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

You might also consider using one of the Fax ASPs such as J2.com,
wherein you could simply send the fax body as an email to a J2
account for relay to a real fax machine.

/rg

--- me <me at cgiguy.com> wrote:
> michael,
> 
> if you only wanted to send text to a fax machine there is
> an old program floating around on the web called ssfax
> 
> it is a dos utility, or at least it was, but it might have been
> ported by now to other os's...
> 
> it is a command line utility that can take a text file and
> send it to a fax machine. if you are not running your website
> or if your client is not running his site off a windows box,
> its
> easy enough to just put the form and the faxing routine on
> another box. keep in mind that you'll need a separate modem
> for this faxing function. maybe more then one, ??
> 
> if ya want it, just go to yahoo and search for ssfax or
> ssfaxer. the guy that wrote this program was from some
> little town in texas.
> 
> a second option might be to look at the dialogic expansion
> cards. www.dialogic.com  they have some really nice faxing
> options available.
> 
> later.
> 
> me.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Goddard <michael at tdh-marketing.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:50 AM
> Subject: [thelist] Sending html form results to fax machine?
> 
> 
> > Can this be done?  We currently have a client who would like
> for users on
> > their web site to have the ability to fill out a simple HTML
> form and then
> > have the results be sent to the client's fax machine.
> >
> > I appreciate any feedback or "nudging into the right
> direction".
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Michael
> >


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 14:48:48 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:48:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
References: <200111072021.fA7KLwjE009624@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <002601c167cd$be8a8430$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Lower half of the home page. The black text is just a bit obscure against
the darker grey.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your
friends)


> > From: "spinhead" <evolt at spinhead.com>
> >
> > Beautiful. I love greys anyway, and you've used them well.
> > (Occasionally, some text is just a bit difficult to read, but it's not
>
> any cases you can think of where it was tough?
> [ . . . ]
> yeah, she's a spectacular photographer... we've got a *lot* of her
> work hanging in our office... you should see the prints... the
> Colored Musician's Club photos are right outside my office...
<spinhead>envyenvyenvyenvy</spinhead>




From michael at tdh-marketing.com  Wed Nov  7 14:53:19 2001
From: michael at tdh-marketing.com (Michael Goddard)
Date: Wed Nov  7 14:53:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Sending html form results to fax machine?
References: <20011107080619.0F9CC9C7@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <003601c167d5$1354bce0$4b01a8c0@michael>

I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses both on list and off
list.  Everyone has given me some great feedback to information in finding a
solution.

Thank you!!

Michael






From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Wed Nov  7 15:01:50 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:01:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE not displaying web pages properly
Message-ID: <000601c167d0$dccd11d0$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

I just got a phone call from some viewing this web site that I just
published recently http://www.calvarylargo.org

He had said that he was getting about a 3/4 inch gap on the left side of the
screen (so everything is pushed to the right). His resolution is set
correctly and he is using Internet Explorer but I don't know what version
and he's running Windows 98. If any of you have a lower version than ie 5.5
running, could you take a look and tell me if you get the same thing. The
only other thing I can think of is, he may need to check his settings.

Thanks,
Bob

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01





From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  7 15:06:41 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:06:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Good recommendations on chat room packages
In-Reply-To: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E53@grety.milcap.com>
Message-ID: <20011107210829.45637.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>

You might also look into http://www.parachat.com

/rg

> Hey evolters,
> 
> Does anyone know any good chat room packages? I have a client
> who 
> wants chat rooms on his website.
> 
> I don't want to build it from scratch.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From jay.blanchard at thermon.com  Wed Nov  7 15:09:02 2001
From: jay.blanchard at thermon.com (jay.blanchard at thermon.com)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:09:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE not displaying web pages properly
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107151403.00a76e38@pop.gvtc.com>

It's OK in IE5.0....does he have his history window open?

Jay




From nonzero at well.com  Wed Nov  7 15:10:38 2001
From: nonzero at well.com (Kevin D. White)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:10:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE not displaying web pages properly
References: <000601c167d0$dccd11d0$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <003301c167d0$e0b1ed20$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>

You need to set the browser margins to 0.  Use the "marginwidth, leftmargin"
attributes in the BODY tag and set them all to "0".  That will eliminate
your left margin.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Boisvert" <webdad at tampabay.rr.com>
> I just got a phone call from some viewing this web site that I just
> published recently http://www.calvarylargo.org
>
> He had said that he was getting about a 3/4 inch gap on the left side of
the
> screen (so everything is pushed to the right). His resolution is set
> correctly and he is using Internet Explorer but I don't know what version
> and he's running Windows 98. If any of you have a lower version than ie
5.5
> running, could you take a look and tell me if you get the same thing. The
> only other thing I can think of is, he may need to check his settings.




From taracc at home.com  Wed Nov  7 15:14:23 2001
From: taracc at home.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:14:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Asking newbie questions
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <3BE9A56A.48EA09B1@home.com>

Hi all, 

As a designer type who lurks a lot I wanted to respond...

Madhu Menon wrote:
> I assure you that it's not the case and that we encourage any level of
> questions here. Nothing is "too silly".

On the other hand, for us more designer types, it is difficult to ask
newbie programming questions. I know that I'm at a beginner level in JS
and I often try to understand others posts, but I almost always think a
question will be too dumb, so don't ask it.

So, in the spirit of "there's no such thing as a dumb question" here goes:

I'm trying to set up a browser detect and page switcheroo thingy (tres
descriptive n'est ce pa?). I want users coming in on NS4.* to go to a
different page. All of the things I've found will detect what browser
someone is on, but I don't know how to take that and get the page to
change.I was using the browser detection based on Ultimate Client
Sniffer, from
<http://developer.netscape.com/docs/examples/javascript/browser_type.html>.
I'm guessing it would be something like:  if btype==nav4  then go
"hereURL", (or some such incomprehensible JS stuff).  I haven't seen
anything that has all of these functions in one script. I guess what I
need is a function that will redirect the page that adds on to the
browser detect, but I haven't found any simple ones (read: ones that I
could decipher). Does anyone have one, or know of one that I could use.

Okay, so now I've asked a dumb programming question, all you brilliant
coders can ask me "dumb" colour theory questions.

AND

With regards to this topic,

> 11) The business of web development (Dealing with clients, writing
> proposals, etc.)
 
I've recently decided to go it alone and become a freelancer again. Have
any of the other freelancers used some of the online freelance
marketplaces like guru.com or elance or any of the others. If you have,
was it successfull and a positive experience or not? Also, any idea of
strategies to pursue to get these clients? From what I've seen,
decisions about who to hire are based on a few sentances for a proposal.
It seems like a bit of a crapshoot to me. Thoughts? Anyone?

Thanks everyone for being so smart!

Tara Cleveland



From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 15:23:03 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:23:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] book on Information Architecture?
Message-ID: <000501c167d2$7d271170$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

I've ordered the O'Really? Polar Bear book, but I'd love something thick and
meaty if such exists.

Thanks.

spinhead






From mail at richardinfo.com  Wed Nov  7 15:23:07 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:23:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] Asking newbie questions
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4> <3BE9A56A.48EA09B1@home.com>
Message-ID: <05af01c167c9$6db7bd10$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
In the head of your IE page you could do this:

<script>
if(document.layers)top.location.href="yourNS4Page"
</script>

> coders can ask me "dumb" colour theory questions.

Ok, what's Add-on support for ICC colors for?
(from here: http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html )

Cheers,
Richard.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tara Cleveland" taracc at home.com





From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com  Wed Nov  7 15:31:02 2001
From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:31:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Asking newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <3BE9A56A.48EA09B1@home.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107152021.028153a0@mail.imaginuity.com>

At 03:19 PM 11/7/2001, you wrote:
>I'm trying to set up a browser detect and page switcheroo thingy (tres
>descriptive n'est ce pa?).

Mais oui. :)

>I want users coming in on NS4.* to go to a
>different page. All of the things I've found will detect what browser
>someone is on, but I don't know how to take that and get the page to
>change.I was using the browser detection based on Ultimate Client
>Sniffer, from
><http://developer.netscape.com/docs/examples/javascript/browser_type.html>.

Ironic.  The page doesn't seem to cooperate in IE5.

http://my.netscape.com/badbrowser.tmpl

It says it's not there, but look at the file name.  They look to be 
"pulling a Microsoft."

>I'm guessing it would be something like:  if btype==nav4  then go
>"hereURL", (or some such incomprehensible JS stuff).  I haven't seen
>anything that has all of these functions in one script. I guess what I
>need is a function that will redirect the page that adds on to the
>browser detect, but I haven't found any simple ones (read: ones that I
>could decipher). Does anyone have one, or know of one that I could use.

It looks like you can take that big, long script and modify it by adding 
this as the last line.

   if (is_nav4) {
     location.replace('hey_sucker_upgrade.html');
   }

The location.replace function prevents that nasty problem when you hit back 
and it immediately bounces you forward again which is really, really 
irritating.

--Ben


-------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------
          Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
-------------------------------------------------------------




From r937 at interlog.com  Wed Nov  7 15:44:05 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:44:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Amazon design change - again
Message-ID: <01c167d3$9d2fcb00$ea4e149a@rudy>

>Hey, check out the "Categorised results" tab. Pretty cool!

hi madhu

speaking of tabs, check out the tabs that build up across the top of the
search results page as you run a few searches here --

   http://searchshots.com/

based on the open directory project database, this search engine shows you
screenshots of the pages it returns...


rudy




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Wed Nov  7 15:46:26 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:46:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Netscape badbrowser (was Asking newbie questions)
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4> <5.1.0.14.0.20011107152021.028153a0@mail.imaginuity.com>
Message-ID: <00a301c167d6$1fbc7030$2860398a@newcos.com>

Ben,

>
><http://developer.netscape.com/docs/examples/javascript/browser_type.html>.
> Ironic.  The page doesn't seem to cooperate in IE5.
> http://my.netscape.com/badbrowser.tmpl
> It says it's not there, but look at the file name.  They look to be
> "pulling a Microsoft."

    Yep, that's exactly what they're doing. With a quick hand on the stop
button, I captured the content of browser_type.html from IE 5.01:

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript>
<!--
if(navigator.appName=="Netscape") { if(navigator.appVersion.substring(0,1)
>= "3")

location.replace("http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/sniffer/browser_
type.html"); } }

else { document.write("<META HTTP-EQUIV=REFRESH CONTENT=\"0;
URL=http://my.netscape.com/badbrowser.tmpl\">\n"); }
// -->
</SCRIPT>

James Aylard




From bharoche at usa.net  Wed Nov  7 15:50:29 2001
From: bharoche at usa.net (Bob Haroche)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:50:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
References: <01c167d3$9d2fcb00$ea4e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <00fa01c167d6$78e9e020$9865fea9@OFFICE>

The thread on alt tags got me thinking I'd like to test some of my stuff in
lynx.  My Win98 version of the browser doesn't work in Win2K.

I know there are LOTS of versions out there, but can anyone point me to a
stable, binary version for Win2K?

TIA


Regards,
Bob Haroche
O n P o i n t  S o l u t i o n s
http://www.OnPointSolutions.com




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 15:50:52 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:50:52 2001
Subject: JS Redirect (was: [thelist] Asking newbie questions)
In-Reply-To: <3BE9A56A.48EA09B1@home.com>
Message-ID: <200111072150.fA7LopjE015582@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Tara Cleveland <taracc at home.com>
[...] 
> I'm trying to set up a browser detect and page switcheroo thingy (tres
[...]
> <http://developer.netscape.com/docs/examples/javascript/browser_type.h
> tml>. I'm guessing it would be something like:  if btype==nav4  then
> go "hereURL", (or some such incomprehensible JS stuff).  I haven't
> seen anything that has all of these functions in one script. I guess
> what I need is a function that will redirect the page that adds on to
> the browser detect, but I haven't found any simple ones (read: ones
> that I could decipher). Does anyone have one, or know of one that I
> could use.

this article has a redirect in it, based on results from a cookie... it 
might help:

Let the User Skip the Splash Page
http://evolt.org/article/list/20/416/index.html




From ericmiller at mediaone.net  Wed Nov  7 15:53:19 2001
From: ericmiller at mediaone.net (Eric Miller)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:53:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] What to do before I ask for a Site Check
Message-ID: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKEECFCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>

Any suggestions for checking my site before I ask for a site check? For
example, aside from an automated check for html standards, are there any
tools for checking specific browser compatibility?

Oh, and when I do ask for a site check, I hope I get as much advice as the
recent request got!

Eric Miller
Systems Analyst, http://www.siweb.com




From websavant at evo.net  Wed Nov  7 15:59:04 2001
From: websavant at evo.net (Kimberly Carroll)
Date: Wed Nov  7 15:59:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] What to do before I ask for a Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKEECFCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <B80F08C9.8CB9%websavant@evo.net>

Eric,
Go here: http://www.cast.org/
Download the test software and run it on your site.
This will help you test for section 508 compliance.
Kimberly




From mbarrett at triad.rr.com  Wed Nov  7 16:01:51 2001
From: mbarrett at triad.rr.com (Michael Barrett)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:01:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] What to do before I ask for a Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKEECFCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <B80F19E3.8F0C%mbarrett@triad.rr.com>

> are there any
> tools for checking specific browser compatibility?
The best testing tool is looking at your site on those specific browsers.

I've heard rumors of browser emulators floating about the web..but I doubt
they would ever work as well as *really* loading up your site in NN 3.0

However, I think it is acceptable to ask other listees to check your site
on, say, a Mac platform, if you are running Windows, in addition to asking
for general feedback.

Got a URL?


-- 
Michael Barrett
-O^O-
  - 

mbarrett at triad.rr.com
AIM: device55




From lists at mantruc.com  Wed Nov  7 16:03:05 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:03:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] book on Information Architecture?
References: <000501c167d2$7d271170$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <3BE9AFAF.E8CAF531@mantruc.com>

spinhead wrote:

> I've ordered the O'Really? Polar Bear book, but I'd love something thick and
> meaty if such exists.

Polar Bear is THE thick and meaty IA book out there
it's the must have for us all

Lou is currently working on the second part
http://www.louisrosenfeld.com/

and Christina Woodtke is also writing a book
so if you're patient you can have 2 new wonderful books
on the subject, meanwhile...

the most useful list of books i know of is
http://www.eleganthack.com/reading
by Christina W

of there i've read the polar bear very good read it too long ago, i'll start it
over next week

web navigation, very nice

don't make me think, high tips per page ratio!

the innmates.... about interaction design, just finished it fabulous, yet a bit
reduntant
(it's deseverd too, it has to proove some tough point ot a stubborn audience)

For free, this wonderful study of navigation, maybe even better that the orilley
book

Foltz, Mark. Designing Navigable Information Spaces. Master's thesis,
Massachusetts Institute
    of Technology, May 1998.

http://www.infoarch.ai.mit.edu/

--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --





From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  7 16:04:21 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:04:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>
Message-ID: <20011107220609.54309.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

Along those same lines...

<tip type="coding helpers" author="Robert Goodyear">
HTML Tidy, which can be patched into many many text editors or
called from the command line from many platforms, will do a fine
job of slipping an an ALT="" to any un-alt-ed IMG tags that it
finds. In its default configuration it alerts the coder to many
many accessibility issues. With five minutes invested in editing
the config file, you can tell it to leave everything untouched
save for those few things you'd like to automate.

http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/tidy/

</tip>

--- jay.blanchard at thermon.com wrote:
> <tip>Cut-n-Paste Document. Created in your favorite text
> editor. You can 
> include lines of code that you use over and over as we are all
> prone to 
> doing. When you need that line of code flip over to that doc,
> copy, paste, 
> and then modify as required. A great example is;
> <img src="../graphics/transparent.gif height="" width=""
> border="0" alt="">
> Just modify the attributes as needed.</tip>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From e.j.martin at chello.nl  Wed Nov  7 16:25:25 2001
From: e.j.martin at chello.nl (Edwin Martin)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:25:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] XML and DHTML book recommendations
In-Reply-To: <3BE9957E.260D14B9@sdsumus.sdstate.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011107231223.038f0008@mail.chello.nl>

Minh Lee Goon,

>I'm looking to start experimenting with XML and DHTML. I know there are
>experts out there, so I'm asking if you would recommend some references
>on either or both topics. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks.

My favorite DHTML-book is "Dynamic HTML - The Definitive
Reference" by Danny Goodman. It's actually four books in one
(HTML, CSS, DOM and JavaScript).

It's a bit old, but that's no problem since most of us still have to
make our sites for NN4 and IE4.

Although I really think the DOM-ECMAScript language bindings
should have been covered 
(http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/ecma-script-language-binding.html).

For XML, I love "XML in a Nutshell". (I love the Nutshell books).
It's pretty up-to-date and covers a lot of XML. Unfortunately,
XML Schema is not covered.

Edwin Martin.





From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Wed Nov  7 16:29:57 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:29:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] What to do before I ask for a Site Check
References: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKEECFCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <00ba01c167dc$3490b790$2860398a@newcos.com>

Eric,

    Personally, I would draw a distinction between a site-check request and
a "why is problem x happening?" plea. A site-check request is generally
intended to get feedback on the look-and-feel, usability, and accessibility
of a site. Some accessibility and usability issues are the result of the
underlying code (such as missing alt attributes on images), while others are
simply the result of overall design and layout.
    Some of these coding issues are obvious without having to view source,
but for the ones that aren't you should run your code through a validator
(especially the W3C validators [1 & 2]). You would also be wise to cover the
W3C's accessibility guidelines [3]. But the primary purpose of a site check,
IMO, isn't to sift your underlying code -- unless problems arise in certain
browsers.
    On the other hand, if you post to the list saying "my page doesn't show
up in Netscape -- can anyone tell me why?", you had better have validated
your code first to make sure you're not missing something obvious, like a
closing </table> tag, or that your code isn't so otherwise error-ridden that
it would be impossible for anyone to guess the actual cause of the
problem -- otherwise, some feathers will get ruffled.
    Basically, it comes down to common sense and courtesy -- if you cover
both of those bases, most everyone on the list who replies will do so in the
same spirit.

James Aylard

1. HTML validator: http://validator.w3.org/
2. CSS validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
3. http://www.w3.org/WAI/




From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Wed Nov  7 16:35:07 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:35:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your
 friends)
In-Reply-To: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>
References: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <314628852.1005154619@u>

I tried to read through and see if anyone said this or not before 
posting, but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, your URLS aren't at all 
descriptive. I know this may seem like a nitpick, but as a user it's 
much easier to remember domain.com/about for an about page than 
domain.com/somethingthathasnothing?todowithit. A simple URL to the 
information I want makes me more likely to file that information away 
in the back of my brain. As a result, you get free advertising when 
someone talks to me and is in need of a product and/or service you 
offer, you also are more likely to get me back if I ever need something 
you offer.

Of course, if you did that to discourage "deep linking," well, I hate 
you :P.

Regards,
Tobyn

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Wed Nov  7 16:40:24 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:40:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c167d6$78e9e020$9865fea9@OFFICE>; from bharoche@usa.net on Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 01:52:17PM -0800
References: <01c167d3$9d2fcb00$ea4e149a@rudy> <00fa01c167d6$78e9e020$9865fea9@OFFICE>
Message-ID: <20011107144206.A189@simianbrotherhood.org>

can't vouch for it since I try to use windows as little as possible...

http://jim.spath.com/lynx_win32/

you could also install cygwin which has lynx available...

http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/

good luck,

-dave


On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 01:52:17PM -0800, Bob Haroche wrote:
> The thread on alt tags got me thinking I'd like to test some of my stuff in
> lynx.  My Win98 version of the browser doesn't work in Win2K.
> 
> I know there are LOTS of versions out there, but can anyone point me to a
> stable, binary version for Win2K?
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Haroche
> O n P o i n t  S o l u t i o n s
> http://www.OnPointSolutions.com
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Wed Nov  7 16:41:09 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:41:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Paypal
In-Reply-To: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFGEDJDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>
References: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFGEDJDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>
Message-ID: <314988910.1005154979@u>

On 11/7/2001 8:02 AM -0800 Ed wrote:

> I find this an interesting issue. I believe Paypal is backed by some
> pretty serious financial industry players (Weigel being one, I
> believe).  I don't think they are doing this to run a shady operation.
>
> Early on they were repeatedly hacked and attacked by financial
> hackers and had to tighten up security.
> I wonder if this stealth approach is one to also help improve
> security, keep their security guards from getting paid off, etc.
>
> I still belive it's a major concern, so I'm not defending their
> position, but just expressing the hunch that they may be doing this
> on purpose.

This sounds valid, but I'm more likely to think that maybe they're just 
trying to get customers to use their online forms to submit questions. 
This helps them route questions to the proper authority, gives their 
people time to come up with an answer rather than making them hold 
impatiently, and allows them to keep detailed records of who said what 
to whom when.

My employer recently cleansed much of its contact information from its 
website for this exact same reason.

Regards,
Toby

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 16:53:46 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:53:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c167d6$78e9e020$9865fea9@OFFICE>
Message-ID: <200111072253.fA7MrjjE018685@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Bob Haroche" <bharoche at usa.net>
>
> The thread on alt tags got me thinking I'd like to test some of my
> stuff in lynx.  My Win98 version of the browser doesn't work in Win2K.
> 
> I know there are LOTS of versions out there, but can anyone point me
> to a stable, binary version for Win2K?

actually, i'm using 2.8 without any problems on win2k...



From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 16:54:56 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 16:54:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
In-Reply-To: <314628852.1005154619@u>
References: <200111071822.fA7IMgjE003432@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111072254.fA7MstjE018861@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
>
> I tried to read through and see if anyone said this or not before
> posting, but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, your URLS aren't at all
> descriptive. I know this may seem like a nitpick, but as a user it's
> much easier to remember domain.com/about for an about page than
[...]

actually, the URL structure is function of our CMS... i'd like to get 
back to human-readable URLs, but we've got redirects if i decide to 
give out algonquinstudios.com/about, for instance...

but yeah, i agree...
 
> Of course, if you did that to discourage "deep linking," well, I hate
> you :P.

nope...



From pandion at gmx.net  Wed Nov  7 17:17:08 2001
From: pandion at gmx.net (pandion)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:17:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] tricky use of tables(or CSS)
In-Reply-To: <3BE8087F.FC25C6D7@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011108001341.00c1ae20@mail.gmx.net>

Hello Matt,

>I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's 
>to create a curve?

I happened to notice this program when I visited BoxTop Software's site the 
other week. It's Mac only and I'm on PC so I couldn't try it. From the 
sound of it, it does exactly what you want though.

PhotoHTML free Adobe Photo shop filter plugin from BoxTop
http://www.boxtopsoft.com/photohtml.html

Cheers,
pandy




From taracc at home.com  Wed Nov  7 17:27:09 2001
From: taracc at home.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:27:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Asking newbie questions
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108015651.00af8b40@203.197.12.4> <3BE9A56A.48EA09B1@home.com> <05af01c167c9$6db7bd10$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <3BE9C48D.94F8A667@home.com>

Richard,

Hey, that's not a newbie question. I had no idea. But I looked around in
Google and found this: http://www.adobe.com/svg/basics/icc.html

<quote>
The International Color Consortium (ICC) was formed in 1993 in order to
develop a color management system that would be cross-platform,
industry-wide, and vendor-neutral.
The resulting ICC color profiles allow the accurate transformation of
one device's color space to another's. For instance, the color of a logo
printed on one device can be accurately represented on-screen as well as
in documents on a variety of platforms. 
</quote>

In case this isn't newbie enough for you...
Colours, as you've probably noticed, look different on a Mac and a PC or
on different operating systems etc. etc. Macs are brighter than PCs.
This says that they can make colours look the same across all platforms.
(Don't know if it works).
If you want more information about colour spaces, and colour theory,
check out 
http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/colortheory/ There's lots of stuff there.

Regards,
Tara

Richard Bennett wrote:
> Ok, what's Add-on support for ICC colors for?
> (from here: http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html )



From gnarly at punkass.com  Wed Nov  7 17:28:01 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:28:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE not displaying web pages properly
References: <000601c167d0$dccd11d0$0200a8c0@BOISNET2> <003301c167d0$e0b1ed20$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>
Message-ID: <01fb01c167e4$5b07d950$6a00a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin D. White" <nonzero at well.com>
Subject: Re: [thelist] IE not displaying web pages properly


> You need to set the browser margins to 0.  Use the "marginwidth,
leftmargin"
> attributes in the BODY tag and set them all to "0".  That will eliminate
> your left margin.

In Dreamweaver this is under Page Properties in the Modify menu IIRC.

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From gnarly at punkass.com  Wed Nov  7 17:28:05 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:28:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
References: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B78491371632ED@ITG_B02> <200111072040.fA7KefjE011066@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <01fc01c167e4$5c411ca0$6a00a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)


> > From: "Brian King" <BKing at Impact-Technologies.com>
> >
> > You know your in trouble when the first job posted in the careers
> > section of the site you just finished... is for a web developer :)
>
> does that mean i can expect a resume?
>
> actually, that's been filled (by 4 people, response was good), but
> we're always looking...

I was drawn in by the "Applicants should be familiar with Liandri Central
Core, and be comfortable handling a Redeemer in close quarters." :-)
Unfortunately I'm in the UK so unless you want a remote worker...

Anyway, heres my critique. Using Opera 5.12, Win2KSP2.

The front page looks fantastic - except for the 10cm border above and below.
I didnt see this in IE5.5 so I assume its an Opera specific problem. I
really like the subtle background graphics in the masthead, thought I have
noidea what the "Ctrl" in there is for :-) The perspective image works for
me too.

Thankfully huge border disappears for the rest of the pages. These pages
work fairly well, but I feel that thhe use of a few more images here and
there would help to spice things up a bit and hold my interest a bit more.
Maybe I'm just being a bit superficial, but I find that they help to break
up large chunks of text and make it easier to read. On the clients page
particularly I just went bleurgh at all the text. I'm not sure exactly why,
perhaps its the colour combination, but my eyes just didnt like it.

On the Articles section front page the links in the left hand sidebar werent
obvious until I rolled over them - once I had entered the technical/news
sections they became more obvious though.

Other than that, its great.

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From gnarly at punkass.com  Wed Nov  7 17:33:08 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:33:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] Opinion and advice wanted
References: <000501c167cb$d5abe980$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <01fa01c167e4$59d96b70$6a00a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Boisvert" <webdad at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: [thelist] Opinion and advice wanted


> I'm actually looking for some advice on approaching the design now.  The
> page layout on this site I'm working on is going to be pretty much the
same
> on every page with exception to the content.
>
> The pages will have a masthead, a floating logo, and a 9 link text menu on
> the left. The page is using tables for both masthead and the text menu.
> There will be external links also.  Which would be correct, to set this up
> as CSS or a SSI for basic page layout, or is neither of these the right
> option.  My assumption is that viewers of the web site will either have
IE4
> or higher and Netscape 4 or higher.

IIRC you are using Dreamweaver/Ultradev, right?

Well why not create a template, and use the built in SSI and/or Library
functionality to include elements that will be the same on all pages (eg the
masthead, footer, etc).

Whether you use CSS is entirely up to you, although I would reccomend it as
a good way of keeping content styled consistently.

HTH,
Cheers,

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From mikemae75 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  7 17:33:17 2001
From: mikemae75 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:33:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] Mailing List program
Message-ID: <HJEHKMEDHOBHIMJFNGGPAEEJCLAA.mikemae75@yahoo.com>

I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for mailing list software that
can handle around 2000+ email address and offer the option for either plain
text or HTML messages for each subscriber.

As an alternative I thought of writing one using PHP/MySQL but I'm not sure
if that will be the best way to handle it.  Are there any dangers/issues to
watch out for if I choose to roll my own with that combination?  Say the
browser crashes (for some reason) while the script is sending the messages
to the list. I assume it will stop sending where the browser crashes even if
it doesn't complete the process right?  Also, how long do you think it would
take to execute the sending of so many messages?

Any advice you can offer will be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike




From philippe at 123piano.com  Wed Nov  7 17:42:36 2001
From: philippe at 123piano.com (Philippe Jadin)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:42:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] Mailing List program
References: <HJEHKMEDHOBHIMJFNGGPAEEJCLAA.mikemae75@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BE9C869.DEC67C51@123piano.com>

Mike wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for mailing list software that
> can handle around 2000+ email address and offer the option for either plain
> text or HTML messages for each subscriber.
> 
> As an alternative I thought of writing one using PHP/MySQL but I'm not sure
> if that will be the best way to handle it.  Are there any dangers/issues to
> watch out for if I choose to roll my own with that combination?  Say the
> browser crashes (for some reason) while the script is sending the messages
> to the list. I assume it will stop sending where the browser crashes even if
> it doesn't complete the process right?  Also, how long do you think it would
> take to execute the sending of so many messages?
> 
> Any advice you can offer will be much appreciated.

Avoid you any hassle and install mailman :)

Philippe



From taracc at home.com  Wed Nov  7 17:47:02 2001
From: taracc at home.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Wed Nov  7 17:47:02 2001
Subject: JS Redirect (was: [thelist] Asking newbie questions)
References: <200111072150.fA7LopjE015582@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BE9C93C.37B4EEFA@home.com>

Thanks,

I think that article, as well as all of the fabulous suggestions from
everyone, will work out. Just gotta make (and eat) dinner before I try
it out.

Thanks everyone!
Tara Cleveland

aardvark wrote: 
> this article has a redirect in it, based on results from a cookie... it
> might help:
> 
> Let the User Skip the Splash Page
> http://evolt.org/article/list/20/416/index.html
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From djc at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov  7 18:26:18 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:26:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] Mailing List program
References: <HJEHKMEDHOBHIMJFNGGPAEEJCLAA.mikemae75@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BE9D25A.2070600@members.evolt.org>

Hi Mike -

I wrote something up about this subject on the evolt site a couple years 
ago, and some of it might be relevant to you:
So you want your own mailing list?
http://evolt.org/article/thelist/18/464/index.html

As someone else mentioned, Mailman is nice, and what i'd recommend 
instead of rolling your own.. http://www.list.org :)

Shout if you have any more questions :)

.djc.

Mike wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for mailing list software that
> can handle around 2000+ email address and offer the option for either plain
> text or HTML messages for each subscriber.
> 
> As an alternative I thought of writing one using PHP/MySQL but I'm not sure
> if that will be the best way to handle it.  Are there any dangers/issues to
> watch out for if I choose to roll my own with that combination?  Say the
> browser crashes (for some reason) while the script is sending the messages
> to the list. I assume it will stop sending where the browser crashes even if
> it doesn't complete the process right?  Also, how long do you think it would
> take to execute the sending of so many messages?





From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 18:34:04 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:34:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <052201c167c3$372ffce0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <3BE98CC0.7224.B6D258D7@localhost>

> From: "Richard Bennett" <mail at richardinfo.com>
[...]
> Design-wise it looks really nice.

good to know...

> One major problem is I can't resize the text with my browsers
> settings, so I can't read it at all on my 1280*1024 monitor
> (especially the darkgray on nice contrasting lighter gray background)
> I have to drag it over to my 800*600 monitor to read it.

hmm... i used px in my CSS, but i guess i should spend more time 
testing that... i really wish i could use a unit that works well without 
looking silly for half of my users, though... oh how i dream about 
em...

> Now my eyelids have finally stopped twitching after setting the
> monitor refreshrate to 85 , I don't want to strain them more than
> necessary :o)

guess you saw that thread a couple days ago, huh?

> I really like the way the code degrades to older browsers - IE4 works
> very well - NS4 is ok too. Maybe you could set the menubar linkcolor
> to white in NS4, as it now shows blue on black.

hmm, good point... knew it would happen, didn't think to address it 
yet... probably will switch the bgcolor to CSS-only...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 18:36:20 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:36:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (yes, i'm a lamer, tell all your friends)
In-Reply-To: <3BE99DC5.4050405@yahoo.ca>
Message-ID: <3BE98D48.5779.B6D46BEB@localhost>

> From: Craig Saila <crsaila at yahoo.ca>
> 
> Very nice work, great use of CSS and background images.

thanks...

> One really minor thing in Mozilla (0.9.5) on Win2K the logo in the top
> left has a white line just above the black nav bar, thus breaking the
> circle.

using Mozilla 0.9.3 and 0.9.4, as well as Netscape 6.01 and 6.1 
(all on win2k), i don't see that...  hmmm... i'll hafta play...

> I think this is tied to how Mozilla (properly) renders images in table
> cells as inline images (which creates a but of extra space between
> vertically ajoining cells).

...although you can address that via CSS...

> Try setting the image to display: block and the probably should
> resolve itself.

thanks...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  7 18:41:18 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:41:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <01fc01c167e4$5c411ca0$6a00a8c0@olly>
Message-ID: <3BE98E72.292.B6D8F7E5@localhost>

> From: "Olly Hodgson" <gnarly at punkass.com>
> 
> I was drawn in by the "Applicants should be familiar with Liandri
> Central Core, and be comfortable handling a Redeemer in close
> quarters." :-) Unfortunately I'm in the UK so unless you want a remote
> worker...

depends on your ping...

> Anyway, heres my critique. Using Opera 5.12, Win2KSP2.

oh boy... i *did* test in that, but it also makes up less than 1% of 
our users (not counting me)...

> The front page looks fantastic - except for the 10cm border above and
> below. I didnt see this in IE5.5 so I assume its an Opera specific
> problem. I really like the subtle background graphics in the masthead,
> thought I have noidea what the "Ctrl" in there is for :-) The
> perspective image works for me too.

cool... the huge gap up top is pretty specific to Opera, yeah... and 
the ctrl key is tied to our marketing campaign for our CMS... a little 
consistency for those familiar with it...

> Thankfully huge border disappears for the rest of the pages. These
> pages work fairly well, but I feel that thhe use of a few more images
> here and there would help to spice things up a bit and hold my
> interest a bit more. Maybe I'm just being a bit superficial, but I
> find that they help to break up large chunks of text and make it

you mean inline?  or elsewhere?  how about the white masthead on 
each page? too simple?

> easier to read. On the clients page particularly I just went bleurgh
> at all the text. I'm not sure exactly why, perhaps its the colour
> combination, but my eyes just didnt like it.

yeah, small text, mixed colors, two columns, mini-icons, all make 
for a rough page... i have no other ideas on how to do it, however...

> On the Articles section front page the links in the left hand sidebar
> werent obvious until I rolled over them - once I had entered the
> technical/news sections they became more obvious though.

hmmm.... might play with those...

> Other than that, its great.

thanks for the input...




From r.livsey at cache-22.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 18:44:09 2001
From: r.livsey at cache-22.co.uk (R.Livsey)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:44:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
In-Reply-To: <20011107144206.A189@simianbrotherhood.org>
Message-ID: <000001c167ef$56004ef0$512a260a@Student1509>

Wow, thanks for that.

I had never tested cache-22 in lynx and am surprised how well t
performs!
I need to look at some alt tag stuff, but apart from that it looks good!
Better than Netscape 4, which I really should get round to looking at!

Its always the case that you never have time for your own site!

R.Livsey
------------------------------------------
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society.
------------------------------------------
Lead Programmer for the Tickle Group
Freelance work always welcome
[ PHP | Perl | mySQL | Java ]
w : cache-22.co.uk
e : R.Livsey at cache-22.co.uk
m : +447764 685 701
i : 37530949 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Dave Preston
> Sent: 07 November 2001 22:42
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
> 
> 
> can't vouch for it since I try to use windows as little as possible...
> 
> http://jim.spath.com/lynx_win32/
> 
> you could also install cygwin which has lynx available...
> 
http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/

good luck,

-dave


On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 01:52:17PM -0800, Bob Haroche wrote:
> The thread on alt tags got me thinking I'd like to test some of my 
> stuff in lynx.  My Win98 version of the browser doesn't work in Win2K.
> 
> I know there are LOTS of versions out there, but can anyone point me 
> to a stable, binary version for Win2K?
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Bob Haroche




From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 18:56:14 2001
From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley)
Date: Wed Nov  7 18:56:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] searchshots.com (was: Amazon design change - again)
In-Reply-To: <01c167d3$9d2fcb00$ea4e149a@rudy>
References: <01c167d3$9d2fcb00$ea4e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <20011108005921.3bb48149.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>

On Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:31:51 -0500
"rudy" <r937 at interlog.com> wrote:


> speaking of tabs, check out the tabs that build up across the top of
the
> search results page as you run a few searches here --
> 
>    http://searchshots.com/


Now thats kinda nifty. An interesting approach to the 'going back to
previous searches' problem. Although between that and the amount of tabs
I run under Moz 9.5 it does tend to get a bit tab-tastic.


> based on the open directory project database, this search engine shows
you
> screenshots of the pages it returns...

And this is *really* nifty. Where'd you dig this one up from rudy?

G.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/
PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/



From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk  Wed Nov  7 19:07:03 2001
From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley)
Date: Wed Nov  7 19:07:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <20011107220609.54309.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107104539.00aae358@pop.gvtc.com>
	<20011107220609.54309.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011108010925.2d8b8108.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>

On Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:06:09 -0800 (PST)
Robert Goodyear <rob_goodyear at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Along those same lines...

[snip tip about HTMLTidy]

... and following that line further..

<tip type="Intergrating HTMLTidy into Nedit" author="Garrett Coakley">

Want to be able to run HTMLTidy from inside Nedit (one of the best GUI
text editors for *nix).

Preferences -> Default Settings -> Customize Menus -> Shell Commands

Create a new entry, lets call it "HTML Tidy". Set Command Input to
Window, Output to New Window and other options to taste. Under Shell
Command To Execute enter:

tidy -config /path/to/tindyconfig %

Set it up with a handy keyboard accelerator and you're good to go.


</tip>

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/
PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/



From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Wed Nov  7 19:18:27 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Wed Nov  7 19:18:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] searchshots.com (was: Amazon design change - again)
In-Reply-To: <20011108005921.3bb48149.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNGEHBENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

Sure is nitfy, but it gets a bit messy when you do a few searches with more
than one keyword in them :o)

http://members.evolt.org/lindsay/searchshots.gif

a tip will be forthcoming...

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au

>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:31:51 -0500
> "rudy" <r937 at interlog.com> wrote:
>
>
> > speaking of tabs, check out the tabs that build up across the top of
> the
> > search results page as you run a few searches here --
> >
> >    http://searchshots.com/
>
>
> Now thats kinda nifty. An interesting approach to the 'going back to

<snip />




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov  7 19:18:57 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Wed Nov  7 19:18:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] What to do before I ask for a Site Check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKEECFCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIMEPADIAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>


> Any suggestions for checking my site before I ask for a site check?

It depends on what checks you're after. If you want specific browser checks,
ask for that, but surely try doing it yourself first. If you have IE5 and
can't go back, but need an IE4 check, fair enough. But if you want a Mozilla
check, you should download it yourself and look first hand.

If you're after a design critique, be sure to specify that, and also outline
your preferred type of response on a scale similar to the following:

 - Fluffy and dishonest
 - Casual and brief
 - Harsh and detailed

(Some people just want a pat on the back; others want to know everything
that may be wrong with their layout.)

Just keep in mind that a harsh critique is an honest critique. It's also
most effective if it's constructive.



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From gnarly at punkass.com  Wed Nov  7 19:27:53 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Wed Nov  7 19:27:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
References: <3BE98E72.292.B6D8F7E5@localhost>
Message-ID: <02e301c167f5$1ad7c000$6a00a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message ----- 
Subject: Re: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)


> depends on your ping...

Damn, no broadband (yet) :-)

> > pages work fairly well, but I feel that thhe use of a few more images
> > here and there would help to spice things up a bit and hold my
> > interest a bit more. Maybe I'm just being a bit superficial, but I
> > find that they help to break up large chunks of text and make it
> 
> you mean inline?  or elsewhere?  how about the white masthead on 
> each page? too simple?

Inline - mainly to break up the text a little.

> thanks for the input...

A pleasure :-)

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From r937 at interlog.com  Wed Nov  7 20:06:03 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Wed Nov  7 20:06:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] searchshots.com (was: Amazon design change - again)
Message-ID: <01c167f9$c658a3a0$ea4e149a@rudy>

> And this is *really* nifty. Where'd you dig this one up from rudy?

last year, i think, but darned if i can remember where, perhaps lockergnome

heck i even have trouble remembering what colour socks i got on
(made you look)

i don't use searchshots much because it's based on dmoz, and their database
ain't all that extensive when compared to google or alltheweb/fast

occasionally i'll use the classic profusion interface --

   http://www.profusion.com/CatNav.asp?ID=1&AGTID=1&queryterm=

because it lets me query several other engines quickly

and if i *know* the site is out there but just can't remember the url or
name, i'll use ixquick.com


> http://members.evolt.org/lindsay/searchshots.gif

thanks lindsay, yeah, you're right, it gets messy



anybody tried http://www.teoma.com or http://www.wisenut.com yet?  rants?
raves?   wisenut says it has 1.5 billion pages, i think that's up around
the number in google...


rudy




From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 20:53:30 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 20:53:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] searchshots.com (was: Amazon design change - again)
References: <01c167f9$c658a3a0$ea4e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <000b01c16800$b85bfed0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Used teoma a couple times. Don't remember much except I kept wondering why I
was using teoma instead of google.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "rudy" <r937 at interlog.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] searchshots.com (was: Amazon design change - again)


[ . . . ]
>
> anybody tried http://www.teoma.com or http://www.wisenut.com yet?  rants?
> raves?   wisenut says it has 1.5 billion pages, i think that's up around
> the number in google...
>
>
> rudy





From evolt at spinhead.com  Wed Nov  7 20:57:35 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Wed Nov  7 20:57:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
Message-ID: <001101c16801$52e8f7a0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Is this for real?

http://www.teleportec.com/index.html

spinhead






From ericmiller at mediaone.net  Wed Nov  7 21:21:34 2001
From: ericmiller at mediaone.net (Eric Miller)
Date: Wed Nov  7 21:21:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
Message-ID: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKOECJCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>

I have validated the html and found several problems. Apparently IE is more
forgiving than I thought. I will start cleaning it up ASAP.

However, since what I'm looking for is a check on look-and-feel and
usability, I'll ask anyway. If anyone is willing to take a look as it is
now, please do so. If not, I'll wait until the html passes muster and
request a site check then.

Isaac mentioned several levels of response I can expect:

- Fluffy and dishonest
- Casual and brief
- Harsh and detailed

I would prefer "harsh and detailed", but I'll take whatever I can get. I
understand and appreciate that people are taking valuable time away from
their lives when then do this.

One thing I'm concerned about is the banner location. It's rather large and
I'm not sure how to work it in (if at all). I should also mention some
limitations I am working with. The site is almost totally static html. I am
using JavaScript to fake server-side includes and the event calendar is
pulled in on the client side from a web server on my home computer.

The site is http://members.cac.net/sjec. I did have a better URI, but
someone forgot to pay the bill as I discovered tonight when I tried to
validate the html online (Argh!).

Thanks in advance,

Eric Miller





From seyon at delime.com  Wed Nov  7 21:33:43 2001
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Wed Nov  7 21:33:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] the Wayback Machine - archived websites
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011107233100.02088750@mail.delime.com>

I think someone inquired about old versions of sites such as Yahoo not too 
long ago. Came across this today.
<tip type="old versions of sites">
The Internet Archive Wayback Machine puts the history of the World Wide Web 
at your fingertips. The Archive contains over 100 terabytes and 10 billion 
web pages archived from 1996 to the present.

http://web.archive.org/
</tip>



From eol1 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  7 21:44:00 2001
From: eol1 at yahoo.com (Eöl)
Date: Wed Nov  7 21:44:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
In-Reply-To: <000001c167ef$56004ef0$512a260a@Student1509>
Message-ID: <20011108034549.11123.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>

http://lynx.isc.org/release/ <---Official lynx site

Has binary listing for win32 lynx.

Peter T

--- "R.Livsey" <r.livsey at cache-22.co.uk> wrote:
> Wow, thanks for that.
> 
> I had never tested cache-22 in lynx and am surprised
> how well t
> performs!
> I need to look at some alt tag stuff, but apart from
> that it looks good!
> Better than Netscape 4, which I really should get
> round to looking at!
> 
> Its always the case that you never have time for
> your own site!
> 
> R.Livsey
> ------------------------------------------
> Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no
> influence on
> society.
> ------------------------------------------
> Lead Programmer for the Tickle Group
> Freelance work always welcome
> [ PHP | Perl | mySQL | Java ]
> w : cache-22.co.uk
> e : R.Livsey at cache-22.co.uk
> m : +447764 685 701
> i : 37530949 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf
> Of Dave Preston
> > Sent: 07 November 2001 22:42
> > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> > Subject: Re: [thelist] Lynx for Win2K?
> > 
> > 
> > can't vouch for it since I try to use windows as
> little as possible...
> > 
> > http://jim.spath.com/lynx_win32/
> > 
> > you could also install cygwin which has lynx
> available...
> > 
> http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/
> 
> good luck,
> 
> -dave
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 01:52:17PM -0800, Bob
> Haroche wrote:
> > The thread on alt tags got me thinking I'd like to
> test some of my 
> > stuff in lynx.  My Win98 version of the browser
> doesn't work in Win2K.
> > 
> > I know there are LOTS of versions out there, but
> can anyone point me 
> > to a stable, binary version for Win2K?
> > 
> > TIA
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Bob Haroche
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 


=====
Peace, love, happiness, and all that Neo-Hippy bullshit.

Please support Planned Parenthood, the American Civil Liberties Union,  and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

De Oppresso Liber

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From isaac at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov  7 21:53:35 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Wed Nov  7 21:53:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKOECJCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIMEPGDIAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>


> The site is http://members.cac.net/sjec. I did have a better URI, but
> someone forgot to pay the bill as I discovered tonight when I tried to
> validate the html online (Argh!).


 - I'd use a feature box within the frontdoor instead of the pop-up window
for refresher courses. I expected the pop-up box to be an ad and would've
closed it instinctively if I wasn't providing a critique.

 - Banner ad is pretty dark and unimaginative. Constant animation is *very*
irritating and distracting. (Content is infuriating, but hey, that's just
me. :p)

 - Address is too cramped and close to the shield. Give it some space.

 - I expected the thermometer icon to link to some kind of daily temperature
feature. It didn't. I'd try something else in that position.

 - The colour scheme correctly draws from the logo, but is very
business-like. You can balance this with fun and full colour photographs.
Also, the images within the site are of varying styles and quality. You have
one dark photograph, a coloured sketch, and what looks like a freebie
temperature icon. Try to pick 2 of the 3 styles to use (dumping the icon
would be my choice).

 - The frontdoor picture of the church is empty and bland. Personally, I
would rather not see any church thrive, but you'll have to find a different
picture of you want to sell the services of it.

 - No pictures elsewhere within the site. Quite boring.

 - Severe lack of community feeling. No pictures of any members anywhere.


Otherwise, the site is straightforward enough, and I noticed no real
usability issues.


I had the misfortune of doing one church site (substantial regret) early in
my web career:

	http://www.heights.org.au

And while I'd never go near one again (or put my name to work of this
quality or content), to their credit they were receptive to ideas that gave
the site slightly more of a dynamic and friendly feel. You might find some
ideas worth using (meeting the team includes photos of key members and their
families, etc).


Also, it may be a good idea to include snippets of your creative brief in
future criqitue requests so we know what aims you were trying to achieve
with the site. Otherwise, we're left to guess. Those snippets could be as
complex or simple as you have available.


Anyway, good luck. I hope some of my suggestions are useful.


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From cache at dowebs.com  Wed Nov  7 22:10:51 2001
From: cache at dowebs.com (Keith)
Date: Wed Nov  7 22:10:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] Paypal
In-Reply-To: <314988910.1005154979@u>
References: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFGEDJDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>
Message-ID: <3BE9A3CB.8933.1B2AF15@localhost>

> I found this article about PayPal:
> 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/19/technology/19NECO.html?pag
ewanted=al

That article is 7 months old, so let's bring it up-to-date. 

> the Better Business Bureau of Santa Clara County recently rated 
>PayPal's customer service unsatisfactory, 

The article was written before PayPal opened their customer 
service center (120+ employees) in Omaha. The BBB's current 
record for PayPal is at:
http://209.128.79.238/search/report.asp?k=210387

As for the article itself, it looks like the author was on the site less 
than ten minutes and took less than ten minutes to write the article. 
Journalism at it's best?

>There is no street address, phone number or e-mail address
>listed among the contact information on PayPal's Web site ? just 
>a post office

Excuse me? There is a form for efficiently handling email customer 
support. But guess what, it doesn't have a field for "Stupid 
questions over the phone by clueless reporters who hope to quote 
our receptionist in a NYTimes article". Unlike the banking industry 
which just bolted the internet onto their decades old merchant-
model, PayPal is using the internet to reinvent that merchant-model 
with live-time accountability. Perhaps they believe in the internet too 
much by relying on email, a street address would be nice.

>Anyone who signs up to use PayPal, an Internet payment service 
>that has become popular among users of auction sites, must 
>provide it with a lot of personal data: name, telephone, address, e- 
>mail and credit card or banking information.

Which is kinda what you need to provide to make ANY internet 
payment, right? Somehow the author finds malicious intent??

The author insinuates that PayPal is something being run out of 
someone's basement because the author had a hard time finding 
the company's telephone number on the website.  Yeah right! 

15 days after the article PayPal completed it's second round of 
capitalization, $90 million. And that capitalization came while 
brokers at NASDAQ were wadding ankle deep in dot com blood 
folks. On Sept 28 it filed with the SEC for an IPO expected early 
next year. 

The author might have looked at the list of venture capitalists who 
are betting on that IPO:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/investors-
outside . 
That list of kids don't play with kids working out of their basement. 
That list probably doesn't read the NYTimes either.

I do not want to start a list war over PayPal. I just think bad 
journalism begs to be kicked.

keith



From websavant at evo.net  Wed Nov  7 22:11:56 2001
From: websavant at evo.net (Kimberly Carroll)
Date: Wed Nov  7 22:11:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKOECJCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <B80F603E.8D03%websavant@evo.net>

Eric,
Overall, the site is clean and well organized.
Here are a few things you could consider:

1. See if you can clean up the pop up window so it doesn't scroll. Better
yet, remove the pop up. You have room on the home page to include it there.
Most users are already trained to close pop ups (ads).

2. Do a little touch up on the table structure. You've used fixed width
table size of 595 - which is ok - but on my big screen it makes the site
look tiny. Also, when I tested the pages with larger font sizes (for those
with visual impairments) the fixed table width makes it nearly unreadable.

3. Set your page margins to "0" so your table is flush left on the page.
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0"
marginheight="0">

4. This is minor - but when I have email links I like to use me at abc.com
formats rather than cryptic labels. Users then know that it is an email link
rather than a page.

5. Re-visit your meta tags. The description tag is only 29% utilized - you
can add more information and help your long term search engine placement.
The keywords tag is only 15% utilized and the relevance of keyword to page
content is really low. (not design related, but ultimately user-experience
related)

6. Remove the site admin link from the main navigation. It's not for the
public so it probably shouldn't be there.

7. Finally, I would move the banner to the bottom of the page, or consider
moving it to the inside pages. It's a little unwieldy up there.

My setup: IE 5 - Mac OS 9.2.1 - Laptop 1024 resolution

Hope this helps.
Kimberly




From andrew at thepander.co.nz  Wed Nov  7 22:17:27 2001
From: andrew at thepander.co.nz (Andrew Forsberg)
Date: Wed Nov  7 22:17:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
In-Reply-To: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com>
References: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com>
Message-ID: <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]>

>Absolutely this discussion belongs here - it's about working
>in this medium, right?
>
>So it belongs here.

This was a long and interesting thread. I signed up to receive 
SIGIA-L and CHI-WEB as a result, which I'm *very* glad about.

Does anyone know of good Visio-like, or general IA planning tools for 
Unix environments (OS X / Linux / Solaris)? FWIW, I have looked 
around for these sorts of things before without success.

Cheers
Andrew

-- 
Andrew Forsberg
---
uberNET - http://uber.net.nz/
the pander - http://thepander.co.nz/



From headlines at lists.evolt.org  Wed Nov  7 23:55:01 2001
From: headlines at lists.evolt.org (Headlines)
Date: Wed Nov  7 23:55:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] Headlines from evolt.org for 07-NOV-01
Message-ID: <200111080555.fA85t1pJ001070@leo.evolt.org>

evolt.org headlines for 07-NOV-01

Hi evolters!

We have some fresh content on evolt.org today, contributed by our
members. Learn something new or review the perspective of someone
else:

Jobs: Web Developer in Austin (Author: mlovitt)
http://www.evolt.org/article/headline/23/17231/index.html

Oak Sanderson is seeking an outstanding Web developer with at least 2
years Web experience. Essential skills include: HTML, JavaScript, and
CSS.




Authors really appreciate feedback from their peers; you can leave a
comment and rate articles by logging into the evolt.org web site.

Happy reading!

evolt.org




From amanda at gawow.com  Thu Nov  8 00:18:38 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:18:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <200111072021.fA7KLxjE009628@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <000001c1681d$85e80440$64c963d8@75ctt01>

> > Actually, on first glance, I really dig that opening 
> screen. The color 
> > here and there is really nice since you have set up this 
> sort of stark 
> > landscape of blacks and whites. I almost want to put that 
> screenshot 
> > on the right to help with balance (not bopping back and forth from 
> > each bit of color -- moving=good, bopping=bad) but I think it could 
> > stay there okay.
> 
> i actually kept it on the left because of the balance... the keyboard 
> key seemed to be too heavy, and the rest of the page too light... 

I didn't even see the keyboard key at all. I couldn't figure out what
the heck everyone was talking about. It even took me a few seconds of
looking to see it just now. Dunno what that says if anything at all.

> *if* i did change it, though, i think i'd have to face the screen cap 
> back the other way so it still looks into the page...

Fer shure.

> good -- i want the screen caps to suck you in...

*thlurp*

Going back to look at that cap, I want to make another suggestion. Your
text on that front page needs a little polishing. I don't know what my
problem is with the right-aligned text but it is bugging me on
readability. That aside, however, and I notice that you have some odd
breaks which hurt the readability further. Something about that first
sentence with the semi colon is just hard to grok for me. The followup
sentence starting with a numeral? Bugs. Bugs. Bugs me. I think you all
should just polish it a tad more. Maybe make it even punchier and look
at how its being presented. Or, you know, just shoot me.
 
> ok, i see that... oddly, i wasn't trying to anchor the nav onto 
> anything... but i guess that doesn't feel that way....

Yeah. It feels like it's in the middle either something that has come
untethered or something which is trying to hang on.
 
> i'd be down with that... unfortunately, one of the technical 
> requirements i had was to have *completely* text-based nav... now, 
> a little image wouldn't hurt too much, but i'd have to see it...

I think that's a great idea to keep it text based. Maybe you can work
within the charset even though I know that can sometimes look goofy.

> > You could also ditch the delineation of that sidebar color and just 
> > use space and type to separate the main content from the left side 
> > content. Shimmy that screenshot up near the page headline 
> and you'll 
> > have a pretty swank layout, I think.
> 
> hmmm... interesting... that's worth trying... i'll have to 
> not cut off 
> the one logo bg, though...

Yeah. Let it float. Might even look nice straddling the side and content
areas. 

--snip--

> the perspective felt too overused there... i wanted it to be more 
> matter-of-fact... i think a headline might be good, but i 
> fear that will 
> remove the exploration/discovery effect i wanted...

Well, to take this a little further. You are treating the left side area
in clients much differently then you are treating it in other areas. In
clients, it illustrates what is on the right, in other areas it is not
associated with right-side content but with content elsewhere. Depending
on where they first go in the site, your audience will learn one way or
the other but may have trouble switching back and forth with you. I'm
not sure what I would advise here other than you may want to brainstorm
that a little bit.

If you do make changes, I'd love to see it again. It's a really nice
site and you did a good job.

- amanda




From chris at fuzzylizard.com  Thu Nov  8 00:19:45 2001
From: chris at fuzzylizard.com (Chris Johnston)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:19:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
Message-ID: <000001c1681e$54e81cd0$be82fea9@cr283847a>

Hello,

I hope this is not to off topic. I am trying to give linux a go and am
having a very frustrating time of it. Personally, I don't see any
advantage in running this OS. Anyway, the problem stems from the fact
that I have just installed the Java jdk 1.3.1_01 onto my system and am
trying to add it to the path variable. Here are the specs that you need
to know to help me with this problem:

Linux: Red Hat 7.1
Java: jdk1.3.1_01
Path: /usr/java/jdk1.3.1_01/bin

The command that I am using:

export PATH=$PATH:/usr/java/jdk1.3.1_01/bin

I am tried this as both root and as a normal user and what is happening
is that while I have the terminal open the new PATH stays and I can run
java and javac from anywhere and they work. However, if I close the
terminal and then reopen it again, the new PATH is gone and I have to
reenter it.

This is getting very annoying. I am trying to set up a java and jsp
development environment and so far it ain't working. Microsoft is
looking better and better all the time.

/chris




From amanda at gawow.com  Thu Nov  8 00:32:03 2001
From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:32:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <B80F603E.8D03%websavant@evo.net>
Message-ID: <000101c1681f$65f1b9e0$64c963d8@75ctt01>

> 3. Set your page margins to "0" so your table is flush left 
> on the page. <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" 
> topmargin="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">

I have to disagree here a bit. CENTER IT! 

Why not center the damn page? It's got a total linear structure so it's
not going to get lost out there and the flush left with all that space
on the right makes it look all squished up as though pummelled with a
sledghammer. 

*ahem*

The banner at the top? I think others have said it -- too dark. I don't
know if you need the black bar. The blue line will probably separate the
banner from the content sufficiently. Or you could do page header (the
name and address) and then banner ad and then the rest of the page.
Seems to be a pretty common usage that doesn't tend to look too
horrifying. 

The color scheme is nice and I'll echo Isaac's comments to get more
people pictures if you can. You might pull in another color by making
those <hr>s into pixel lines or colored <hr>s (you can do that, right?)
Maybe use that red?

Your copyright ought to change to 2001. Hey! Are you foisting an old
design on us? Bring back some fresh design! And, get rid of these
snails! You would think that in a fancy restaurant at these prices you
could keep the snails off the food!

- amanda





From Anthony at Baratta.com  Thu Nov  8 00:34:03 2001
From: Anthony at Baratta.com (Anthony Baratta)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:34:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
In-Reply-To: <000001c1681e$54e81cd0$be82fea9@cr283847a>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107223257.01bbcc20@baratta.com>

What shell are you using?

If you are using BASH, find your .bash_profile file; located in your home 
directory.

Edit the file and look for your PATH statement:

	PATH=$PATH:$HOME/bin:

Add to it. Warning never put . in your path. e.g. :.: Bad Karma. Very Bad 
Karma.

---
Anthony Baratta
President
Keyboard Jockeys

"Conformity is the refuge of the unimaginative."




From lindsay at redsquare.com.au  Thu Nov  8 00:35:14 2001
From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:35:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
In-Reply-To: <000001c1681e$54e81cd0$be82fea9@cr283847a>
Message-ID: <NEBBKJCHLKELHFDMNAHNGEIAENAA.lindsay@redsquare.com.au>

Google rocks:
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/sdk_1.3/install.html#env-var

Did I hear someone say RTFM?

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 vox: 8596.4000
 fax: 8596.4001
 web: www.redsquare.com.au




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 00:37:00 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov  8 00:37:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1681d$85e80440$64c963d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNICEPMDIAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> http://algonquinstudios.com


I'd put the screenshot on the right-side to avoid the awkward right-aligned
project description. If necessary, I'd make the text larger also to
strengthen it. Not sure if you prefer to emphasise the solution (text)
rather than the design (screenshot). I'd choose the former.

You should definitely work on your right-side alignment of the frontdoor.
The tagline, bizname, navigation, and project description should all be
aligned. Currently, the nav and desc don't align with the tagline and
bizname.

Your footer on internal pages looks very strange at smaller sizes. You could
try left-aligning it with the internal content.

Finally (for now), the internal and frontdoor navigation mouseovers are odd.
Notice that they don't meet the very edge of the nav bar. This gives a black
"leftover" line which does not fit with the blocks of colour used
predominantly throughout the site.



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From tiedefenderdelta6 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 01:12:26 2001
From: tiedefenderdelta6 at yahoo.com (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Thu Nov  8 01:12:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <20011107233226.624B152055@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20011108071417.24588.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com>

Ok, my first message to the list, just been lurking in the
background for a few weeks (man this thing gets a lot of
traffic compared to the other lists I'm on).

Anyway, I just started using WIn98's option to use an html
page as the background, the only problem is when I put
links there to applications on the computer (instead of
using icons, this way I don't even have to worry about
unwanted icons being installed) internet explorer launches
then gives me the dialog box, asking whether I want to
download or run the app from where it is, unlike when I
just type the addresses in by hand for local files. I want
it to by default run the files, but only for this page, not
for ones on the web. any ideas for how to get it to do
this?

Thanks in advance, and if this is OT, I'll just have to owe
a tip.

Lachlan Cannon
{luminosity}

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From mail at richardinfo.com  Thu Nov  8 03:54:35 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Thu Nov  8 03:54:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
References: <001101c16801$52e8f7a0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <073701c16832$6c446640$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

> Is this for real?
Maybe, but this looks to me like just another of those companies that are
setting themselves up for a buy-out.
Their product is 90% hype, and 10% content.
If they did any testing at all, they sure didn't take many photos while they
did it!.

It certainly is off-topic though.

<tip type=javascript>
While debugging your code in Mozilla, or NS6 you should remember that an
empty alert will not show!
this doesn't work:
alert()
this is ok:
alert("")
</tip>

Richard.


----- Original Message -----
From: "spinhead" <evolt at spinhead.com>




From mqy4fxax36001 at sneakemail.com  Thu Nov  8 04:37:12 2001
From: mqy4fxax36001 at sneakemail.com (Joergen Ramskov)
Date: Thu Nov  8 04:37:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] RE:
Message-ID: <135216420.1005215943593.JavaMail.root@boots>

> Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:09:41 -0800
> Subject: Re: [thelist] alt tags on all images (was Site Check)
> From: Paul Peterson <paul at thereformist.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> 
> My rant response...
> 
> However, those who for whatever reason don't want to or can't 
> view images
> should have just as much opportunity to access information in a usable
> fashion. After all, isn't that why the Web was originally created?

A problem is maybe that webdesigners doesn't have the tools to check their
site for that audience? My personal little site validates, but I haven't
checked how it works for users that can't see - how should I? I would like
to try one of those browsers blind people use, but I don't know of any!? I
could imagine those that exists, weren't free either? 
If such a *free* tool/browser existed, it would be much easier for
webdesigners, etc., to test their site for accessibility. Just using the
Bobby validator doesn't automatically make the site great, if I understand
it correctly?
 
> Does this mean therefore that we should have to name ALL our images,
> regardless of their function (or lack thereof)? Of course 
> not. In fact,
> including ALT values for every image could hinder rather than 
> help the text
> browser (try reading FOOBAR LOGO BULLET ABOUT FOOBAR BULLET 
> CONTACT FOOBAR
> FOOBAR LOGO). And many designers believe ALT tags should be 
> descriptive, but
> that is not the intent. They should be *functionary*.
> 
> How do we make sense of all this? By compromising: use ALT="" 
> for images
> which can be ignored, and be creative with your values for 
> images which
> serve a simple function (e.g. ALT="[*]" for bullet images).
 
It seems to me that the image tag is too limited. This is the way the
standard was created and it is far too late to change it, but maybe the
image tag should have had an "type" attribute, descriping what whether this
image is a bullet, a link or whatever? Standard image types demand an alt
tag, but not all of those types should. Another way would be to create new
[image] tags, but I'm not sure that would be a good way to do this.

Is it a good idea or have I missed something (I probably have :) )? 

No matter what, it will probably never be part of a standard, but you can
dream, can't you? :)


--
Joergen Ramskov




From george at skyeviz.com  Thu Nov  8 04:40:19 2001
From: george at skyeviz.com (george)
Date: Thu Nov  8 04:40:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: newbie and svg
In-Reply-To: <20011108062503.1F6DA51FF7@relay.evolt.org>
References: <20011108062503.1F6DA51FF7@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05100300b8100cc795dc@[213.104.122.48]>

-- 
yes i have been lurking around with more than a slight trepidation of 
joining in  to this well educated and caring forum.  having said that 
i am at last inspired by a designer here <apologies for dumping the 
appropriate list> who sort of cleared the ground for newbies like me 
to make their entrance.

for the past 9 odd months i have been attempting to create my own 
websites both as a hobby and an exploration into how netzines with 
disabilities can enjoy access as much as us all to the vast wealth of 
information and fun readily available.

this has been made much easier with the use of probably the worlds 
best web design programme available for mac users - Freeway.   very 
suitable for someone like myself who does not see the world as code. 
and a very powerful tool in creating dynamic interactive designer 
projects.  ok it is a wusiwug design programme and fits perfectly 
into the mac 'think differently' concept of what we can achieve.   in 
fact it is brilliant!  and i am not getting payed to plug this.

and now that svg has been acreditated the 'official' recognition from 
the powers that be of web standardization - namely w3.org - i am at 
last using freeway to help me create a platform for visually impaired 
netzines.

the test results can be seen at my http://skyeviz.com/svg.html which 
i hope you will enjoy.

perhaps you can give my other projects a look over and would 
welcomely appreciate your critique which will be of great value to me.


now that feels better:-)

~george~
http://skyeviz.com
http://georgelennox.com
http://members.aol.com/georgelennox



From mail at richardinfo.com  Thu Nov  8 05:30:23 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Thu Nov  8 05:30:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: newbie and svg
References: <20011108062503.1F6DA51FF7@relay.evolt.org> <a05100300b8100cc795dc@[213.104.122.48]>
Message-ID: <07b701c1683f$cd657010$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
I'm afraid you've been tricked by the hype.
SVG certainly is an open standard, and has addressed many accesibility
issues that Flash hadn't (although they're catching up too) that doesn't
mean that by using SVG your pages are suddenly accessible, and search-engine
ready.
Quite the oposite.
SVG is not as yet embedded natively in any browsers except Mozilla, in all
others a pluggin is needed.
(and as people generally don't want to code two versions of an SVG document,
they code for the pluggin version)
There was a discussion about this just last week on the SVG developers list
(here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers )
and although Google now supports searching through .pdf files, they have no
support for SVG pluggins.

Your page looks something like this to a S.E. :

**************
    you can get your svg plugin here >
    keyboard controls for zooming - IN cmd
    OUT - shift cmd
    moving hand - alt

    clock
    compressedsvgatlast
    svgpioneering
    svgviewerid2
    svgatlast

    svgz
    compression
    4K
    svgz
    compression
    8K
****************

Another thing that's a little misleading is that you write :
    svgz
    compression
    4K
Beside a Flash animation.

>to help me create a platform for visually impaired
> netzines.
In that case I wouldn't use small black text on a dark green background.

Cheers,
Richard.

> and now that svg has been acreditated the 'official' recognition from
> the powers that be of web standardization - namely w3.org - i am at
> last using freeway to help me create a platform for visually impaired
> netzines.
>
> the test results can be seen at my http://skyeviz.com/svg.html which
> i hope you will enjoy.





From mail at richardinfo.com  Thu Nov  8 05:39:11 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Thu Nov  8 05:39:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
References: <3BE98CC0.7224.B6D258D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <07d701c16841$086e3dd0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
> > I really like the way the code degrades to older browsers - IE4 works
> > very well - NS4 is ok too. Maybe you could set the menubar linkcolor
> > to white in NS4, as it now shows blue on black.
> 
> hmm, good point... knew it would happen, didn't think to address it 
> yet... probably will switch the bgcolor to CSS-only...

It turns out that was my fault, I had style-sheets turned off in NS4.
Now it looks just fine :o)

Richard.





From kevin at brasscannon.net  Thu Nov  8 05:50:08 2001
From: kevin at brasscannon.net (Kevin Martin)
Date: Thu Nov  8 05:50:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Adding to PATH in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20011108064851.9091DC0AE@relay.evolt.org>; from thelist-admin@lists.evolt.org on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:48:51AM -0600
References: <20011108064851.9091DC0AE@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20011108065154.B12898@brasscannon.net>

Quoth "Chris Johnston" <chris at fuzzylizard.com>
> trying to add it to the path variable. Here are the specs that you need
> to know to help me with this problem:

The flavor of Linux and JDK don't really matter.  This tells us what we 
need to know, though:

> I am tried this as both root and as a normal user and what is happening
> is that while I have the terminal open the new PATH stays and I can run
> java and javac from anywhere and they work. However, if I close the
> terminal and then reopen it again, the new PATH is gone and I have to
> reenter it.

When you close your terminal, that's the end of that session ("process"), 
and you've only redefined your PATH for the duration of that process (and 
its children, if any).  Does that make more sense?  "export" can't go 
backwards to before you opened your terminal; it can only go forward.

So:  You need to set your PATH at login, before X starts up.  You can do 
that by putting the re-definition into your .profile or .bash_profile, or 
into the system-wide profile /etc/profile.  If you want a system script 
to use it, it's better to set a complete explicit PATH in that 
script* rather than hoping the default system environment will work.

*(Find out exactly what directories you need in your PATH, and instead of  
using "$PATH plus one or two," define them ALL.  Again, this will only be 
in effect for the duration of the script.)

Generic advice:  Don't "hope" (make assumptions) about things -- the point 
of Linux is that you can "make it so!"  You find it frustrating now; I 
understand.  You may come to find it liberating.  I just think it's nice 
to have a choice.

http://handsonhowto.com/unix101.html  might help.



From chris at fuzzylizard.com  Thu Nov  8 06:24:48 2001
From: chris at fuzzylizard.com (Chris Johnston)
Date: Thu Nov  8 06:24:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Adding to PATH in Linux
References: <20011108064851.9091DC0AE@relay.evolt.org> <20011108065154.B12898@brasscannon.net>
Message-ID: <3BEA7B30.9020809@fuzzylizard.com>

Thanks, adding the path to the .bash_profile did it. So much to learn 
about this new OS.

I do agree, I like to have a choice as well and thanks for the link.

/chris

Kevin Martin wrote:

>When you close your terminal, that's the end of that session ("process"), 
>and you've only redefined your PATH for the duration of that process (and 
>its children, if any).  Does that make more sense?  "export" can't go 
>backwards to before you opened your terminal; it can only go forward.
>
>So:  You need to set your PATH at login, before X starts up.  You can do 
>that by putting the re-definition into your .profile or .bash_profile, or 
>into the system-wide profile /etc/profile.  If you want a system script 
>to use it, it's better to set a complete explicit PATH in that 
>script* rather than hoping the default system environment will work.
>
>*(Find out exactly what directories you need in your PATH, and instead of  
>using "$PATH plus one or two," define them ALL.  Again, this will only be 
>in effect for the duration of the script.)
>
>Generic advice:  Don't "hope" (make assumptions) about things -- the point 
>of Linux is that you can "make it so!"  You find it frustrating now; I 
>understand.  You may come to find it liberating.  I just think it's nice 
>to have a choice.
>
>http://handsonhowto.com/unix101.html  might help.
>
>
>






From amccoy at goodmanct.com  Thu Nov  8 06:38:54 2001
From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan)
Date: Thu Nov  8 06:38:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B336028492@admin.admin.goodmanct.com>

I can personally attest to NASA's interest in it. We did a lot of
simulations and research on this using CAVE and VisionDome environments
while I was there. We probably won't see an actual working model of it
for a few years, but there it's a hot topic in its application to
virtual engineering groups.

At least that was the case while Dan Goldin was NASA Administrator...

Alan (I know...I owe)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spinhead [mailto:evolt at spinhead.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 9:59 PM
> To: thelist
> Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
> 
> 
> Is this for real?
> 
> http://www.teleportec.com/index.html
> 
> spinhead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From talbot4 at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov  8 06:43:51 2001
From: talbot4 at bellsouth.net (Bryan T)
Date: Thu Nov  8 06:43:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Newbie questions/Design topics
Message-ID: <B80FDA7E.7ED%talbot4@bellsouth.net>

Hey y'all,

I'm one of those "lurking" here since early summer.
I'm an audio guy/musician type who's started down a
long path into the world of web design, as well as
visual stimulation, which is something I've thought
for years that I'd like to somehow get good at, but
hadn't the slightest desire to pursue formally. (Obviously,
computers and affordable *Big Wow* software changed
all that.) I've been dutifully scanning all the emails
from thelist, and while I've picked up a few links to
sites containing extremely valuable information,
I read the things most of you are discussing and shake my
head in dismay, reflecting on academics I refused to pursue
and subjects that I was always convinced I could never
take part in...More to the point, since I became determined
to "become a web designer/developer", I've primarily been neck-deep
in Flash, and spending lots of time at Flash Kit Community,
while I really should be boning up on CSS and the like.
Kind of like the kid who fails school but becomes a great guitar player,
which is not a justification, just a comparison.
I will continue to scan the discussions from the List with
great admiration for those with interests that differ slightly
from mine, and would be delighted to read discussions of design
fundamentals. 
Thanks to all for the great info and links, and hopefully in the
near future I'll have something to contribute.

Cheers,
Bryan T





From mia at miaridge.com  Thu Nov  8 06:44:03 2001
From: mia at miaridge.com (mia at miaridge.com)
Date: Thu Nov  8 06:44:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
In-Reply-To: <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0111080742450.3352-100000@sprout.phpwebhosting.com>

On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Andrew Forsberg wrote:

> Does anyone know of good Visio-like, or general IA planning tools for
> Unix environments (OS X / Linux / Solaris)? FWIW, I have looked
> around for these sorts of things before without success.

I've heard that Kivio (http://www.thekompany.com/projects/kivio/) and Dia
(http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/) are like Visio but I haven't had a
chance to try them myself.  They're KDE and gtk+ respectively.

cheers, Mia
(long time lurker, first time poster)




From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 07:05:54 2001
From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:05:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0111080742450.3352-100000@sprout.phpwebhosting.com>
References: <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]>
	<Pine.LNX.4.33.0111080742450.3352-100000@sprout.phpwebhosting.com>
Message-ID: <20011108130906.550580bd.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>

On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:45:52 -0500 (EST)
<mia at miaridge.com> wrote:


> I've heard that Kivio (http://www.thekompany.com/projects/kivio/) and
Dia
> (http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/) are like Visio but I haven't
had a
> chance to try them myself.  They're KDE and gtk+ respectively.


I use Dia here for all my schematics and site maps etc. I've never used
Visio so I can't comment on how well they match functionality wise, but
I haven't found Dia lacking yet.

G.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/
PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/



From lists at mantruc.com  Thu Nov  8 07:13:28 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:13:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
References: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com> <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]>
Message-ID: <3BEA8515.96B150F5@mantruc.com>

Andrew Forsberg wrote:

> >Absolutely this discussion belongs here - it's about working
> >in this medium, right?
> >
> >So it belongs here.
>
> This was a long and interesting thread. I signed up to receive
> SIGIA-L and CHI-WEB as a result, which I'm *very* glad about.

:)
those lists are wonderful indeed

> Does anyone know of good Visio-like, or general IA planning tools for
> Unix environments (OS X / Linux / Solaris)? FWIW, I have looked
> around for these sorts of things before without success.

In general, any diagramming tool will be enough, the most powerful
feature i've found so far is to put common page elements in a beckground
page.

One nice thing to take into account is JJG's visual vocabulary, he took
the titanic take of formalizing a generic symbology for nav maps and
storyborads
http://www.jjg.net/ia/visvocab/

--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --





From kristina at kfx-design.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 07:25:19 2001
From: kristina at kfx-design.co.uk (kristina)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:25:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
In-Reply-To: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E54@grety.milcap.com>
References: <E7871D588DB8A4419702D8AFF6612DF5249E54@grety.milcap.com>
Message-ID: <19550578968.20011108132704@kfx-design.co.uk>

Scott,

on Wednesday, November 07, 2001, 3:59:34 PM, Scott wrote:

::
> www.html-kit.com

> Its like home site but more flexible (and a lot better) and free
::

Due to your comment that HTML-Kit was even 'more' flexible than
HomeSite, and also partly due to the fact that I've had my 90 days
free trial for 4.5.2 and at the end of that I just got a further 30
days free trial of HomeSite 5 (timed to perfection!!).  I was
beginning to think oMiGod I'm gonna have to pay for this, untill I
read your comment, which made me go and install the HTML-Kit, that
I've had sat idly on my computer for I have no idea How long!

Please don't think that I'm trying to be a cheapskate, its just I
really don't think HomeSite is worth the (near) $100 price tag, its
good but it ain't That good! iykwim. 

To my delight you are correct ;o)  It's wonderful, thank you for making
me go and look properly at HTML-Kit.

Thank you
  thank you
    thank you  ;oD

<tip author="kristina">Pay attention to program recommendations, and
you will benefit from other peoples experiences.  It will save you
???'s and loads of time!</tip>

(now all I want is an offline version of 'something' that will file all
my evolt messages in some sort of logical-searcahble-easily-updateable-order.)

;o)

-- 
bfn
 kristina

kristina at kfx-design.co.uk


"When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters.
One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity."
-- John F. Kennedy




From BKing at Impact-Technologies.com  Thu Nov  8 07:26:10 2001
From: BKing at Impact-Technologies.com (Brian King)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:26:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B7849137163307@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717563E@ITG_B02>

Lol, I am pretty familiar with Liandri Central Core, but actually prefer the
Sniper's playground in team deathmatch.   BTW - Blitzenn can easily handle a
Redeemer in close quarters, I'll frag you're a$$ :)

Owe a tip now.  To follow soon.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
Behalf Of aardvark
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 3:42 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)

> From: "Brian King" <BKing at Impact-Technologies.com>
>
> You know your in trouble when the first job posted in the careers
> section of the site you just finished... is for a web developer :)

does that mean i can expect a resume?

actually, that's been filled (by 4 people, response was good), but
we're always looking...


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From amccoy at goodmanct.com  Thu Nov  8 07:37:10 2001
From: amccoy at goodmanct.com (McCoy, Alan)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:37:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
Message-ID: <6EA277CAA880A349870428C3AE42B3360A8ECA@admin.admin.goodmanct.com>

hehehe...I'm lovin' this thread already. (Do I hear [theUTvolt] list in
the works?) We should seriously get the 'volt UTers together for some
fun sometime. ;-)

The guys I shared a batcave with at NASA and I were big fans of Deck16,
especially with the Volatile Ammo mod. Lots o' explodin' fun for
everyone!

Alan

<tip type="project management">
Do everything in your power to keep the sales staff out of the way (but
not completely out of the loop) during the active development of a
project. The best line of communication a project manager can have with
the client is a direct one, not 2nd hand client requests filtered
through a salesperson.
</tip>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian King [mailto:BKing at Impact-Technologies.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:21 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do,
> really)
> 
> 
> Lol, I am pretty familiar with Liandri Central Core, but 
> actually prefer the
> Sniper's playground in team deathmatch.   BTW - Blitzenn can 
> easily handle a
> Redeemer in close quarters, I'll frag you're a$$ :)
> 
> Owe a tip now.  To follow soon.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On
Behalf Of aardvark
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 3:42 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: RE: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do,
really)

> From: "Brian King" <BKing at Impact-Technologies.com>
>
> You know your in trouble when the first job posted in the careers
> section of the site you just finished... is for a web developer :)

does that mean i can expect a resume?

actually, that's been filled (by 4 people, response was good), but
we're always looking...


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From tonyc at boldfish.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 07:41:05 2001
From: tonyc at boldfish.co.uk (Tony Crockford)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:41:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
In-Reply-To: <19550578968.20011108132704@kfx-design.co.uk>
Message-ID: <LPBBLLOGKNBIKOOOOAJAKEBOGDAA.tonyc@boldfish.co.uk>

 
> (now all I want is an offline version of 'something' that 
> will file all
> my evolt messages in some sort of 
> logical-searcahble-easily-updateable-order.)


You got outlook? (not express)

If so have a look at this:

NEO - instantly organized email
http://www.caelo.com/a/rl.php3?i=3NTVV

HTH 



From kristenannfrey at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 07:56:04 2001
From: kristenannfrey at yahoo.com (Kristy Frey)
Date: Thu Nov  8 07:56:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] computer power consumption stats
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJHDHOLHCLPJKONBNOECCDBAA.dulcie@heritagecommunityfdn.org>
Message-ID: <20011108135756.15933.qmail@web14309.mail.yahoo.com>

> > Know of any online info re: how much power a computer uses when
> > it's in full
> > power-saving mode? Seems the local utility co told my wife that a
> > potential
> > cause of our larger electric bill is 'increased computer use' and now she
> > insists that all machines be shut down every night. Including my server. I
> > really need some comparison to a normal household item, e.g. 'in
> > power save
> > mode, a computer uses the same electricity as a 40 watt light
> > bulb' would be
> > nice.

the men will like this, the women will hate it...

Say "Ok Honey, I'll turn off my server every night.  But you can't use the hair dryer and curling
iron anymore".

I'd be willing to bet that 10 minutes of hairdryer on high heat is more than your server running
overnight.

And that's coming from a women that has left her 3 computers, 2 monitors, 1 hub, 1 router, 1 cable
modem, 1 keyboard/mouse switch, 2 printers, 1 scanner, 2 sets of speaker..... on for 2 years straight.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From BKing at Impact-Technologies.com  Thu Nov  8 08:02:37 2001
From: BKing at Impact-Technologies.com (Brian King)
Date: Thu Nov  8 08:02:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B7849137163356@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717563F@ITG_B02>

<tip>
if you have an secured and an unsecured, (http and https), path enabled to
the same web site and are navigating using IE6, a page that auto-redirects
you to the secured site will take you to the unsecured side every time if
you have previously visited the unsecured site.  Empty the cache on the
local machine exhibiting the problem to fix the redirect error.
</tip>

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian King
Subject: RE: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)


Owe a tip now.  To follow soon.








From billybad at belgacom.net  Thu Nov  8 08:21:12 2001
From: billybad at belgacom.net (billybad)
Date: Thu Nov  8 08:21:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
Message-ID: <000901c16860$ce207fb0$1065a8c0@emakina012>

Hello,
i'm having a look to a webserver statistics.
and i have 2 strange hits done by Netscape 8....

Can anyone tell me what's that browser?
Is it released? Is it a spider?

Is it possible to have more info on that browser?

TIA
Billy





From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Thu Nov  8 08:25:34 2001
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Thu Nov  8 08:25:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
In-Reply-To: <000901c16860$ce207fb0$1065a8c0@emakina012>
Message-ID: <001d01c16862$1e2d3f10$6601a8c0@mylittledomain.internal>

It's probably a fake - don't some browsers on Linux let you easily
modify your user agent? 

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia

Email    : jedimaster at macromedia.com
Yahoo IM : morpheus

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of billybad
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
> 
> 
> Hello,
> i'm having a look to a webserver statistics.
> and i have 2 strange hits done by Netscape 8....
> 
> Can anyone tell me what's that browser?
> Is it released? Is it a spider?
> 
> Is it possible to have more info on that browser?
> 
> TIA
> Billy
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 08:49:50 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 08:49:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <07d701c16841$086e3dd0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <200111081449.fA8EnnjE016000@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Richard Bennett" <mail at richardinfo.com>
> > 
> > hmm, good point... knew it would happen, didn't think to address it
> > yet... probably will switch the bgcolor to CSS-only...
> 
> It turns out that was my fault, I had style-sheets turned off in NS4.
> Now it looks just fine :o)

yeah, but in NN3 it's blue on black... i should fix that since it's so 
easy to do, and will handle for non-CSS browsers well enough...




From hh at mailserver.dk  Thu Nov  8 09:07:15 2001
From: hh at mailserver.dk (Henrik Hansen)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:07:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
In-Reply-To: <001d01c16862$1e2d3f10$6601a8c0@mylittledomain.internal>
 ("Raymond Camden"'s message of "Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:31:56 -0500")
References: <001d01c16862$1e2d3f10$6601a8c0@mylittledomain.internal>
Message-ID: <87g07puwor.fsf@server.server>

"Raymond Camden" <jedimaster at macromedia.com> wrote:

 > It's probably a fake - don't some browsers on Linux let you easily
 > modify your user agent? 

it's also easy setting your own HTTP headers from a script (php, perl,
whatever).

-- 
Henrik Hansen




From jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 09:32:18 2001
From: jhaworth at witanjardine.co.uk (Jon Haworth)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:32:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
Message-ID: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F495@BOOTROS>

> wheres the rule that says i need to put an alt tag on every image?
> width and height yes, but theres not always a need for alt tags.
> navigational images - yes of course you need alt tags

Well, there's two reasons for this. 

One is the sad techie reason that "the W3C says so" (James Aylard has
thoughtfully provided the link already so I don't have to look it up :-)

The second, and better reason IMHO, is that it's the rule that says "give a
stuff about your users, including those that may not have images turned on,
or may be using screen readers or something". Have you seen images without
alt text in Lynx? 

> i would like, if anyone has got it - a test run on it with IE 4 on a pc
and
> NS 6 on a mac - they'er the only 2 browser i haven't got my hands on yet -
> and they're the ones im interested in.

The point is it's not what *you're* interested in (unless you're working in
a closed intranet where everyone's on IE6), but it's what *your users* are
interested in. 

> maybe the validator doesn't recognise the fact that its got asp detection
in
> it?

The validator doesn't give a flying fsck what cunning sniffing routines you
use. However it is worth bearing in mind that what the validator sees is
essentially what a search engine sees, so if you're confusing the validator,
you're confusing the search engines, and you'll end up as one of these sad
sites that are listed in Google as "this site requires frames" or "your
browser does not have javascript enabled".

> i just work for a compay thats given me a spec - not my fault or problem.

In that case, educate your company as to why the spec is borken. Enlighten
them as to what they're doing wrong and demonstrate how the spec can still
work as they want it to, but be better than they thought it could. Come on,
this is your business and your area of expertise. They pay you to do this.


Cheers
Jon


**********************************************************************
'The information included in this Email is of a confidential nature and is 
intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, 
any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be 
unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether 
inadvertent or otherwise is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality'

**********************************************************************




From sreindl_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 09:40:21 2001
From: sreindl_2000 at yahoo.com (Susan Reindl)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:40:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
Message-ID: <20011108154214.22197.qmail@web11203.mail.yahoo.com>

Edit your .bash_profile in your home directory, logout
and log back in. Or, you may edit the /etc/profile
file-logout and then log back in again to test.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 09:41:28 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:41:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B784913717563E@ITG_B02>
References: <77CABDAF62AFD411AEA800D0B7849137163307@ITG_B02>
Message-ID: <200111081541.fA8FfRjE018047@leo.evolt.org>

<tip type="character entities">
Until recently, you could use certain ISO numeric character entities 
in a page and they'd validate.  However, you may have noticed that 
some of your sites aren't passing validation lately at the W3C site 
due to character entities (it may tell you something is not a valid 
SGML character entity).  A perfect example is the em-dash, which 
can be represented by &#151;.  The preferred way to represent that 
with the numeric entity is by &#8212;.

The full, and official, reference for HTML 4.01 can be found on the 
W3C site at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html
</tip>

> From: "Brian King" <BKing at Impact-Technologies.com>
>
> Lol, I am pretty familiar with Liandri Central Core, but actually
> prefer the Sniper's playground in team deathmatch.   BTW - Blitzenn
> can easily handle a Redeemer in close quarters, I'll frag you're a$$

this is *so* OT it's not even funny...

however...

http://fileplanet.com/index.asp?section=745&page=8&file=45983
or
http://www.gamesdomain.com/multiplayer/pages/1535.html

big room with sniper nests, 5+ redeemers on accelerated spawn, 
and a little bit of underground action... designed for people like me 
who fire redeemers at close quarters and hide behind posts to not 
get toasted, or who just like to put one in the air and fly it around 
looking for targets...

and alan, best board for office play is Facing Worlds, low gravity, 
super shock rifles only, and friendly fire turned off... you can shoot 
teammates right into the redeemer room with only a hop and a 
shot... two people retrieve the flag, one hops off the roof, the other 
shoots him back to base... *very* fun...




From hassan at webtuitive.com  Thu Nov  8 09:49:01 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:49:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
References: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com> <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]> <3BEA8515.96B150F5@mantruc.com>
Message-ID: <3BEAA9D7.1251F2EE@webtuitive.com>

"javier velasco (mantruc)" wrote:

> One nice thing to take into account is JJG's visual vocabulary, he took
> the titanic take of formalizing a generic symbology for nav maps and
> storyborads
> http://www.jjg.net/ia/visvocab/

This is pretty cool stuff; almost got me convinced to try Visio :-)
until, that is, I went to Amazon and found that (choke, gasp) Visio 
2002 Professional is US$500 (!!) and Visio 2002 Standard is $180 (!). 

A lot to pay for something I'm not sure I'll even continue to use,
and I'm betting there's no free "trial" version. :-)

Any other Win(W2K)-based tools that are comparable to Visio for this
purpose?
-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From MMcAtee at philamuseum.org  Thu Nov  8 09:51:56 2001
From: MMcAtee at philamuseum.org (McAtee, Malcolm)
Date: Thu Nov  8 09:51:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Traffic Analysis --- ??
Message-ID: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410574@MAILHOST>

I am using Webalizer ---

Question:
Top 30 referrers:
Are all URLS from within my own site.
Number One --- top referrer is my home page.
Number Two --- Direct Request (I assume these are bookmarks, etc.)
www.google.com/search/  --- is number 27 and is the only search engine
listed.

These figures seem strange to me. Is there a reasonable explanation and /or
conclusion that can be drawn from these figures? Or is something not
configured properly?

TIA 

Malcolm





From hassan at webtuitive.com  Thu Nov  8 10:00:30 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:00:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
References: <20011108154214.22197.qmail@web11203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BEAAC89.F34DFD1C@webtuitive.com>

** Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!! **

> Edit your .bash_profile in your home directory, logout
> and log back in. Or, you may edit the /etc/profile
> file-logout and then log back in again to test.

<tip type="modifying *nix profile files">

When you modify files, especially system ones, that potentially
affect your login, *do not log out* of the system to test -- if 
the next login process hangs because of an error in that file, 
you're in deep bandini. 

While still logged in, open another window on your desktop and 
log in through that; make sure everything works normally (or at 
least as you expected!) in that window. Then you should be OK 
to fully log out.  

</tip>

-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From MMcAtee at philamuseum.org  Thu Nov  8 10:04:57 2001
From: MMcAtee at philamuseum.org (McAtee, Malcolm)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:04:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
Message-ID: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST>


Is there a way to do a reverse domain lookup so that you can type the ip and
get the domain name?



From lists at mantruc.com  Thu Nov  8 10:06:10 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:06:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools, was: IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
References: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com> <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]> <3BEA8515.96B150F5@mantruc.com> <3BEAA9D7.1251F2EE@webtuitive.com>
Message-ID: <3BEAAD56.55EDA9A7@mantruc.com>

Hassan Schroeder wrote:

> "javier velasco (mantruc)" wrote:
>
> > http://www.jjg.net/ia/visvocab/
>
> This is pretty cool stuff; almost got me convinced to try Visio :-)
> until, that is, I went to Amazon and found that (choke, gasp) Visio
> 2002 Professional is US$500 (!!) and Visio 2002 Standard is $180 (!).

yes it is very expen$ive
one importatn part of that vocabulary is in it's basic requirements:

"Tool-independent: The vocabulary should be designed so that
      specialized software tools are not required in order to construct
      diagrams. The vocabulary should not favor the use of any particular
      software tool, but should instead enable architects to work with the
      tools they are most comfortable using. "

> A lot to pay for something I'm not sure I'll even continue to use,
> and I'm betting there's no free "trial" version. :-)

i know what you mean

> Any other Win(W2K)-based tools that are comparable to Visio for this
> purpose?

any diagramming tool will do...
even word and powerpoint drawing tools, you can use corel draw, freehand or
fireworks, if you're comfortable with them
other diagrming tools are concept draw (free demo, good comments on IA lists)

http://www.google.com/search?q=concept+draw&btnG=Google+Search
demos for PC and Mac

and the other one i can't remember the name, is was something with
imagination


--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --





From morbus at disobey.com  Thu Nov  8 10:07:42 2001
From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:07:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
In-Reply-To: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108110831.00a1fad0@red.totalnetnh.net>

 >Is there a way to do a reverse domain lookup so that you
 >can type the ip and get the domain name?

Not with any accuracy - most low-trafficked domains don't get their own IP 
as they're virtual domained into one IP with other domains being hosted off it.


--
Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan porn rulezzzzz )
http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/
please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus






From paul at thereformist.com  Thu Nov  8 10:08:11 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:08:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Problem validating CSS
In-Reply-To: <20011108161807.41148C0EB@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B80FEE4D.1365%paul@thereformist.com>

I'm stumped. When I try to validate a CSS file
(http://www.thegeneration.org/style/midnight.css) using the W3C CSS
Validator, I receive nothing but the following error message:

"I/O Error: Unknown mime type : text/plain"

How do I fix this? I've tried uploading my CSS files (using Transmit on Mac)
in both normal and ASCII modes, but I get the same error both times.

When I tried validating it on WDG's CSSCheck
(http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/csscheck/), I get congratulated for no errors
but also get the message:

"Note: Content-type of text/css expected, but server returned a Content-type
of text/plain."

Anybody help?

TIA,
Paul Peterson





From djc at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 10:13:38 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:13:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] Book Recommendation Request (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0111081013320.19916-100000@leo.evolt.org>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:13:47 -0800
From: Megan Holbrook <meganwh at prodigy.net>
Reply-To: megan at kapow.com
To: thelist at evolt.org
Subject: Book Recommendation Request

A friend is looking for a book about what businesses are doing with
ecommerce
other than informational websites (descriptive case studies). Does
anyone have any recommendations I could pass on to him?

Thanks,

M.
-- 
Megan Holbrook - megan at kapow.com
Partner - Business Development
kapow, inc. (www.kapow.com)

kapow, inc. Milwaukee               kapow, inc. Los Angeles
2405 E. Wyoming Place               2130 Sawtelle Blvd, #302A
Milwaukee, WI 53202                 Los Angeles, CA 90025
T: 414-273-2446 * F: 419-793-6271   T: 310-479-2020 * F: 310-473-3711




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 10:19:54 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:19:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNICEPMDIAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
References: <000001c1681d$85e80440$64c963d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <200111081619.fA8GJrjE020230@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "isaac" <isaac at members.evolt.org>
> 
> I'd put the screenshot on the right-side to avoid the awkward
> right-aligned project description. If necessary, I'd make the text
> larger also to strengthen it. Not sure if you prefer to emphasise the
> solution (text) rather than the design (screenshot). I'd choose the
> former.

thing is, i want the screenshot to face the right, since it's a 
"forward" face, as opposed to facing left, which seems to be 
looking back... and the screenshot is the focus, not the copy, so 
that adjust my thinking a bit...

> You should definitely work on your right-side alignment of the
> frontdoor. The tagline, bizname, navigation, and project description
> should all be aligned. Currently, the nav and desc don't align with
> the tagline and bizname.

browser/OS?  they line up here in Mac/Win IE5+ and N6...

> Your footer on internal pages looks very strange at smaller sizes. You
> could try left-aligning it with the internal content.

yeah, that's a bit wonky, too many lines of copy, too...

> Finally (for now), the internal and frontdoor navigation mouseovers
> are odd. Notice that they don't meet the very edge of the nav bar.
> This gives a black "leftover" line which does not fit with the blocks
> of colour used predominantly throughout the site.

that was by design... i wanted the black to still frame and contain 
the navigation, making it more of a strip of nav than blocks color 
that happen to be nav... hmmm...

good input, thanks...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 10:20:03 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:20:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] Problem validating CSS
In-Reply-To: <B80FEE4D.1365%paul@thereformist.com>
References: <20011108161807.41148C0EB@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111081619.fA8GJtjE020240@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Paul Peterson <paul at thereformist.com>
[...]
> (http://www.thegeneration.org/style/midnight.css) using the W3C CSS
> Validator, I receive nothing but the following error message:
> 
> "I/O Error: Unknown mime type : text/plain"
[...]
> When I tried validating it on WDG's CSSCheck
> (http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/csscheck/), I get congratulated for no
> errors but also get the message:
> 
> "Note: Content-type of text/css expected, but server returned a
> Content-type of text/plain."

your answer is right there...

your server needs to treat .css files as text/css, not text/plain...

depending on your OS/server, just go in and change the MIME type 
from text/plain to text/css...

if you can tell me the OS/server, i think we can tell you where to 
look to get that done...




From sbaier at guinnessgroup.com  Thu Nov  8 10:20:42 2001
From: sbaier at guinnessgroup.com (Simon Baier)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:20:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
Message-ID: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>

Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn] into
a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.  No matter what I try it always
comes out looking grainy. I've seen clean looking mini screenshots, so I
know it's possible, just never figured out how.  Do I need to use different
screen capture software?

I'm using PhotoShop on a PC

TIA
Simon

==================
Simon Baier
simon at baier.com
Chicago, IL
==================

<tip author"Simon Baier">
Google - it rocks.  If a web site has no search capability (or if it just
plain sucks ..AhemMicrosoft) you can use Google and restrict to the target
site by querying, for example, "site:microsoft.com searchstring".  As with
any Google search, the page you seek will most likely appear within the top
three items.  For more cool Google tricks see
http://www.google.com/help/features.html
</tip>




From nicole at parrot.ca  Thu Nov  8 10:24:16 2001
From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:24:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] PHP and forcing a timeout?
Message-ID: <00c201c16872$0d6e08c0$0429ca18@nparrot>

Hi gang,

I'm enjoying my first real foray into PHP (as opposed to ASP), implementing
a bit of news syndication. However, I just ran into my first major hurdle.

My little program queries one of three sites for news retrieval, and grabs
the news, throws them into my own database for later queries.  This morning,
one of the three sites was down, and my poor little PHP just hung there,
trying to retrieve the XML feed forever.

Is it possible to have some sort of timeout? Or to verify that the external
file is reachable before attempting to open it?  I guess something like " if
( fileexists) then retrieve "...

Nicole




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Thu Nov  8 10:25:21 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:25:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F495@BOOTROS>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEECOCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

>Have you seen images without alt text in Lynx?

yep..ugly isn't it - so why browse - yes download time is quick - just means
the user is more interested in whats beening said as to what is actually
displayed - surely - if the text relates somehow - in away that the user
may, after reading some content text actually want to see the picture -
there fore turning images back on - this of course is a wide area of
debate - but i don't feel i should use alt tags just because some one else
tells me to - rules are there to be stretched (sometimes broken) - thats how
we evolve, learn and inspire.

>The point is it's not what *you're* interested in (unless you're working in
>a closed intranet where everyone's on IE6), but it's what *your users* are
>interested in.

i disagree - we know our target area - we're hardly going to try and get
business to design and build a website,intranet,extrant from another
e-commerce company? Our target audience has been identified - we know the
most used browsers and what OS are used etc...and we understand the
implications of those users who have chosen to use another browser - but in
fairness can we not assume that the people who are using such browsers as
opera and mozilla are fairly niffty on the web - and probably work in a
development environmet somehow? In which case - are we as a company really
wanting to target these people???

many thanks

paul




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 10:26:17 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:26:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1681d$85e80440$64c963d8@75ctt01>
References: <200111072021.fA7KLxjE009628@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111081626.fA8GQGjE021388@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "A. Erickson" <amanda at gawow.com>
> 
> I didn't even see the keyboard key at all. I couldn't figure out what
> the heck everyone was talking about. It even took me a few seconds of
> looking to see it just now. Dunno what that says if anything at all.

on the homepage it's a but darker than internally, but internally, 
your window has to be greater than 800px to see it... thinking 
about ratcheting that down...

> > *if* i did change it, though, i think i'd have to face the screen
> > cap back the other way so it still looks into the page...
> 
> Fer shure.

see my comments to isaac about facing back instead of forward, 
though... i'm still not comfortable with that...

> Going back to look at that cap, I want to make another suggestion.
> Your text on that front page needs a little polishing. I don't know
> what my problem is with the right-aligned text but it is bugging me on
> readability. That aside, however, and I notice that you have some odd
> breaks which hurt the readability further. Something about that first
> sentence with the semi colon is just hard to grok for me. The followup
> sentence starting with a numeral? Bugs. Bugs. Bugs me. I think you all
> should just polish it a tad more. Maybe make it even punchier and look
> at how its being presented. Or, you know, just shoot me.

the right align is a design thing, and yeah, it does impact 
readability... with *that* design, it's the best way, changing that 
design would certainly adjust the reasons for right-aligning... but 
the copy doesn't seem to be helping too much...

> > ok, i see that... oddly, i wasn't trying to anchor the nav onto
> > anything... but i guess that doesn't feel that way....
> 
> Yeah. It feels like it's in the middle either something that has come
> untethered or something which is trying to hang on.

hmmm.... might have to try it with the nav non-liquid...

[snip]
> > the perspective felt too overused there... i wanted it to be more
> > matter-of-fact... i think a headline might be good, but i fear that
> > will remove the exploration/discovery effect i wanted...
> 
> Well, to take this a little further. You are treating the left side
> area in clients much differently then you are treating it in other
> areas. In clients, it illustrates what is on the right, in other areas
> it is not associated with right-side content but with content
> elsewhere. Depending on where they first go in the site, your audience
> will learn one way or the other but may have trouble switching back
> and forth with you. I'm not sure what I would advise here other than
> you may want to brainstorm that a little bit.

yeah, think i'll play... part of the plan *was* to keep people a little 
off-balance, again, with the plan to make them want to explore... 
dunno if it's working that way yet, tho...

> If you do make changes, I'd love to see it again. It's a really nice
> site and you did a good job.

thanks... for the input, too...




From kernel at esatclear.ie  Thu Nov  8 10:26:28 2001
From: kernel at esatclear.ie (Ross Lynch)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:26:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJAEGOCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>

> Does anybody have advise on how to
> convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn] into
> a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x
> 200px.  No matter what I try it always
> comes out looking grainy. I've seen clean
> looking mini screenshots, so I
> know it's possible, just never figured
> out how.  Do I need to use different
> screen capture software?
>
> I'm using PhotoShop on a PC

I don't think the screen capture software is really
going to effect the quality of the image. I assume
it just takes a 1024x768 (or whatever) 72dpi image
of the screen. I imagine the trick to getting
non-grainy screen shots is to have as little small
elements on the screen as possible. Big flat blocks
of colour will resize the best.

HTH,
 -Ross

____________________________________________________
ross lynch  | me at rosslynch.com  | +353 (0)87 9683368
____________________________________________________
Nicht auf dem Teppich, Mann!





From nicole at parrot.ca  Thu Nov  8 10:28:21 2001
From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:28:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] PHP and forcing a timeout? - addendum
References: <00c201c16872$0d6e08c0$0429ca18@nparrot>
Message-ID: <00d001c16872$abc85d40$0429ca18@nparrot>

<Addendum>
I realise that the fopen function will eventually timeout by itself but the
delay is too long for me.  I'm picky :-)
</Addendum>
Nicole


> I'm enjoying my first real foray into PHP (as opposed to ASP),
implementing
> a bit of news syndication. However, I just ran into my first major hurdle.
>
> My little program queries one of three sites for news retrieval, and grabs
> the news, throws them into my own database for later queries.  This
morning,
> one of the three sites was down, and my poor little PHP just hung there,
> trying to retrieve the XML feed forever.
>
> Is it possible to have some sort of timeout? Or to verify that the
external
> file is reachable before attempting to open it?  I guess something like "
if
> ( fileexists) then retrieve "...





From chrisg at gsnet.com  Thu Nov  8 10:29:39 2001
From: chrisg at gsnet.com (Chris George)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:29:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <B810016D.8802%chrisg@gsnet.com>

Make sure you shrink it down by numbers that evenly go into the source.

For example, if you screencap at 800x600, and you want a thumbnail 200px
wide, then it would be 200x150.  Also, depending on what app you're using,
you may need to choose 'resample' rather than 'resize' (although, you're
using PhotoShop, so you only have one option, which is fine).

As for your tip, it's actually our #1 referrer now:

'site:www.gsnet.com caterpillar'

Kinda neat!

Anyway. Hope that helps.

Chris.

on 11/8/2001 9:22 AM, Simon Baier at sbaier at guinnessgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn] into
> a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.  No matter what I try it always
> comes out looking grainy.




From adrian at cubitum.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 10:32:43 2001
From: adrian at cubitum.co.uk (Adrian Simmons)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:32:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
References: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <a05101004b810639a159b@[192.168.0.2]>

>Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn] into
>a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.
>Do I need to use different screen capture software?
No, this has more to do with how you make the thumbnail.
Try adding some blur in Photoshop *before* resizing, you might have 
to experiment to get the right amount, but it should help.

I think. Been a long while since I did that sort of thing by hand.

Personally I just use GraphicConverters web gallery option and grab 
the thumbnails it creates, but since you're on a PC...maybe a PC app 
that creates web galleries would help?

-- 
Adrian

e-mail:
mailto:adrian at cubitum.co.uk

Web Site:
http://www.cubitum.co.uk

Netscape/AOL Instant Message ID:
adrianatcubitum




From webnow at bigfoot.com  Thu Nov  8 10:32:49 2001
From: webnow at bigfoot.com (Ed)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:32:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFGEGFDJAA.webnow@bigfoot.com>

 : [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Simon Baier
 : Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:23 AM :
 : Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot into
 : a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.  No matter what I
 : simon at baier.com

Simon, there is definitely a great way to do this.  I use Printkey 2000,
which is wonderful for this sort of stuff.
Most useful part is you PRT-SCRN and then use a marquee tool to  select your
area of interest, then you choose the resolution (smaller saves room).

http://www.geocities.com/~gigaman/

Search google for printkey2000.exe (or variations thereof) - there should
still be a freebie version floating around.




From mark at velir.com  Thu Nov  8 10:40:02 2001
From: mark at velir.com (Mark Gregor)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:40:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
In-Reply-To: <000901c16860$ce207fb0$1065a8c0@emakina012>
Message-ID: <000b01c16860$20a3f650$0a01a8c0@mark>

Hi,

> Hello,
> i'm having a look to a webserver statistics.
> and i have 2 strange hits done by Netscape 8....

Here's the reason given by the WebTrends Knowledge Base at
http://www.webtrends.com/support/Solution.asp?id=2572137713

Instances of Mozilla/8.0 as an agent have been found in different log
files. As a result, it was determined that this is referencing an
international institution of education. Some educational institutes have
customized the Netscape browser for themselves and they identified
version numbers that Netscape may not have previously used. 

Example: 

2000-12-14 00:34:40 192.92.7.23 - W3SVC1 SERVER1 192.53.2.10 80 GET
/image/comp/7.GIF - 200 -
Mozilla/8.0+(compatible;+MSIE+5.01;+Windows+98) 




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Thu Nov  8 10:44:28 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:44:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] Site Check
In-Reply-To: <67DF9B67CEFAD4119E4200D0B720FA3FB5F495@BOOTROS>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEDACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

oh - jon, BTW

>In that case, educate your company as to why the spec is borken. Enlighten
>them as to what they're doing wrong and demonstrate how the spec can still
>work as they want it to, but be better than they thought it could. Come on,
>this is your business and your area of expertise. They pay you to do this.

if you worked with the designers i work with - u'd have a totaly different
outlook on the problems i have to deal with day in day out - like most of
you out there.

our designers seem to think that because they've seen microsoft do something
then we MUST be able to do it - and theres no way we're allowed to
comprimise design - god forbid it - even the mention of the words..."i can't
get that to work with the site designed like that because..." is a killable
offense with most of our designers - it only one or 2 that myself and other
techie guys have cornered and made them realize what coding is about....the
war will be a long one - but we may get there.

cheers

paul




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Thu Nov  8 10:47:56 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:47:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHEECOCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEDACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

does anyone know of anyway to style alt tags?
just changing the color from white to something else or maybe the text
color?

cheers

paul




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 10:52:06 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:52:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEDACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

paul,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Paul Backhouse
>
> does anyone know of anyway to style alt tags? just
> changing the color from white to something else or
> maybe the text color?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you can't change the colors of the alt text as that is defined by the
operating system.

what you can do is create your own.

http://www.bosrup.com/web/overlib/

enjoy,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Thu Nov  8 10:55:30 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:55:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
In-Reply-To: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST>; from MMcAtee@philamuseum.org on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:08:03AM -0500
References: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST>
Message-ID: <20011108085718.A262@simianbrotherhood.org>

if you have dig (comes with bind)

dig -x ip.addr.to_lookup

there must be a way to do it with nslookup but it's been so long I don't
recall.

On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:08:03AM -0500, McAtee, Malcolm wrote:
> 
> 
> Is there a way to do a reverse domain lookup so that you can type the ip and
> get the domain name?
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 10:58:23 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:58:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
In-Reply-To: <073701c16832$6c446640$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHMEKNEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>

richard,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Richard Bennett
>
> Maybe, but this looks to me like just another of those
> companies that are setting themselves up for a buy-out.
> Their product is 90% hype, and 10% content.  If they
> did any testing at all, they sure didn't take many
> photos while they did it!.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

and what tells you that holographic imaging can be photographed?  *grin*

<tip type="web applications" author=".jeff">

building a web-based application?  users on windows?  then use colors,
fonts, and cursors as they've defined in their system settings.

http://members.evolt.org/jeff/code/user_defined_colors.cfm

</tip>

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 10:59:21 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:59:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <200111081659.fA8GxKjE023547@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Simon Baier" <sbaier at guinnessgroup.com>
> 
> Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn]
> into a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.  No matter what I try
> it always comes out looking grainy. I've seen clean looking mini
> screenshots, so I know it's possible, just never figured out how.  Do
> I need to use different screen capture software?
> 
> I'm using PhotoShop on a PC

first off, get your window to a size that is an even multiple of 200 -- 
this means 800x800 is best, since you're reducing every 4 pixels to 
one pixel (instead of 3 to 1 at 600x600)...

get the browser window sized, and do an alt-printscreen... this 
captures the current window...

open a new photoshop document (should be sized to your browser 
window size) and paste...

resize the image...

play around with Unsharp Mask to regain some of the edges...

see if that does the trick...




From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Thu Nov  8 10:59:46 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Thu Nov  8 10:59:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] PHP and forcing a timeout? - addendum
In-Reply-To: <00d001c16872$abc85d40$0429ca18@nparrot>; from nicole@parrot.ca on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:30:25AM -0500
References: <00c201c16872$0d6e08c0$0429ca18@nparrot> <00d001c16872$abc85d40$0429ca18@nparrot>
Message-ID: <20011108090134.B262@simianbrotherhood.org>

set_time_limit() is possibly what you want, although it is the time
limit for executing the entire script (page), there are some timeout
functions for sockets that might be more appropriate.

Poke around at this...

http://www.php.net/manual-lookup.php?pattern=timeout

On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:30:25AM -0500, Nicole Parrot wrote:
> <Addendum>
> I realise that the fopen function will eventually timeout by itself but the
> delay is too long for me.  I'm picky :-)
> </Addendum>
> Nicole
> 
> 
> > I'm enjoying my first real foray into PHP (as opposed to ASP),
> implementing
> > a bit of news syndication. However, I just ran into my first major hurdle.
> >
> > My little program queries one of three sites for news retrieval, and grabs
> > the news, throws them into my own database for later queries.  This
> morning,
> > one of the three sites was down, and my poor little PHP just hung there,
> > trying to retrieve the XML feed forever.
> >
> > Is it possible to have some sort of timeout? Or to verify that the
> external
> > file is reachable before attempting to open it?  I guess something like "
> if
> > ( fileexists) then retrieve "...
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From jamie.bakum at circle.com  Thu Nov  8 11:03:10 2001
From: jamie.bakum at circle.com (Jamie Bakum)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:03:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
References: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <a05100301b81064469cc5@[10.10.8.76]>

>  > Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot [Alt][PrtScrn] into
>  a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.
-- 
Hi Simon -

(First off, Adrian, I never heard of blurring something before 
scaling down - I see how that would reduce graininess, but don't you 
lose too much detail? The scaling itself smooths out sharper areas of 
contrast... But, I'm open to experimenting, if the below tips don't 
help Simon)

Anyway:

Rather than simply resizing the screenshot via Image > Image Size, I 
find Photoshop does a better job of resampling an image when you:

a. create a new image the size of your screenshot (or duplicate the 
background layer in your initial image to create an editable layer),
b. drag the screenshot in as new layer to your new image,
c. Use Unsharp Mask *before* scaling to sharpen things up (the 
scaling will soften the sharpness, if it's still too grainy try 
different settings or go without the Unsharp Mask.)
d. go to Edit > Transform > Scale and reduce the layer to the target size,
e. fine tune with Unsharp Mask again and,
f. crop to final output size.

The key is staying away from changing the size via "Image Size" and 
experimenting with your Unsharp Mask settings...

Hope this helps -

______________________________________________
Jamie



From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Thu Nov  8 11:10:37 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:10:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEDCCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

cheers .jeff




From hassan at webtuitive.com  Thu Nov  8 11:10:58 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:10:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
References: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST> <20011108085718.A262@simianbrotherhood.org>
Message-ID: <3BEABD0E.D7C9DEBC@webtuitive.com>

Dave Preston wrote:
> 
> if you have dig (comes with bind)
> 
> dig -x ip.addr.to_lookup
> 
> there must be a way to do it with nslookup but it's been so long I don't
> recall.

nslookup ip.addr.to_lookup  :-)

-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From ronwhite at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 11:20:36 2001
From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:20:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <20011108071417.24588.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJACNCFDNLLAFJNJBAECGDAAA.ronwhite@members.evolt.org>

Haven't used that feature, but do you have an c:\... path in the shortcut?
If you already do then I got nuttin... Instead of putting local shortcuts in
the HTML put them in the quick launch bar. That's my personal preference...

Thanks,
Ron White





From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Thu Nov  8 11:24:40 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:24:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
In-Reply-To: <3BEABD0E.D7C9DEBC@webtuitive.com>; from hassan@webtuitive.com on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:12:46AM -0800
References: <E40026A94B88D511B1D000508BC74133410594@MAILHOST> <20011108085718.A262@simianbrotherhood.org> <3BEABD0E.D7C9DEBC@webtuitive.com>
Message-ID: <20011108092629.D262@simianbrotherhood.org>

curse these overly engineered tools, how would I ever guess ;)

On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:12:46AM -0800, Hassan Schroeder wrote:
> Dave Preston wrote:
> > 
> > if you have dig (comes with bind)
> > 
> > dig -x ip.addr.to_lookup
> > 
> > there must be a way to do it with nslookup but it's been so long I don't
> > recall.
> 
> nslookup ip.addr.to_lookup  :-)
> 
> -- 
> H*
> Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
> Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
> 
>     -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From martin at takingitglobal.org  Thu Nov  8 11:32:31 2001
From: martin at takingitglobal.org (Martin Kuplens-Ewart)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:32:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] Setting/Customising Internet Explorer useragent string
Message-ID: <000601c1687b$2c858ae0$6e33a8c0@martinlaptop>

Hey there folks,

Does anyone happen to know whether it is possible to customise the
useragent string in Internet Explorer:
A.) within the IEAK?
B.) for macs?

Microsoft's website is kinda useless for finding this out - I tried
emailing the address they provide [ieak at microsoft.com] but the message
bounced...

Ta,

-martin





From emeyer at lclark.edu  Thu Nov  8 11:33:58 2001
From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:33:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEDACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHKEDACIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
Message-ID: <a05100302b810725052c9@[149.175.43.62]>

I *think* alt text tends to default to the body text color...  but 
browsers would vary of course.

"alt" is an attribute, not an element.  So I don't think you can 
apply a style to "alt" specifically.

E

>does anyone know of anyway to style alt tags?
>just changing the color from white to something else or maybe the text
>color?
>
>cheers
>
>paul


-- 



From morbus at disobey.com  Thu Nov  8 11:40:12 2001
From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:40:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] Setting/Customising Internet Explorer useragent
  string
In-Reply-To: <000601c1687b$2c858ae0$6e33a8c0@martinlaptop>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108124104.00a03840@red.totalnetnh.net>

 >Does anyone happen to know whether it is possible to customise the
 >useragent string in Internet Explorer:

For Windows, it's stored here:

  HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\
                            CurrentVersion\Internet Settings

For Macs, get a copy of ResEdit and start poking around in the resource 
fork of the application, and see if you can see anything (I'd do it, but 
I'm no where near my Mac right now).

Never used the IEAK, so dunno if it's possible there.


--
Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan porn rulezzzzz )
http://www.disobey.com/ && http://www.gamegrene.com/
please me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus






From webguru at vsnl.net  Thu Nov  8 11:42:52 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:42:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] computer power consumption stats
In-Reply-To: <20011108033325.B17ECA52@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108230824.0286d368@203.197.12.4>

At 09:03 AM 11/8/2001, you wrote:
>cause of our larger electric bill is 'increased computer use' and now she
>insists that all machines be shut down every night. Including my server. I
>really need some comparison to a normal household item, e.g. 'in

Switch off the monitor when you go to bed. That consumes the most power. 
You should be OK. I never turn off my PC (thanks to Win2K, I don't have to 
constantly reboot).

HTH,

Madhu



<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 11:44:38 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:44:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] reverse domain lookup
In-Reply-To: <20011108085718.A262@simianbrotherhood.org>
Message-ID: <20011108174631.85271.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

Under NT, it's simply:

nslookup [address]

OR

go to http://www.samspade.org


> > Is there a way to do a reverse domain lookup so that you can
> type the ip and
> > get the domain name?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From emeyer at lclark.edu  Thu Nov  8 11:51:21 2001
From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Thu Nov  8 11:51:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
References: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05100305b81075710f17@[149.175.43.62]>

.jeff wrote:

>  ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>  > From: Paul Backhouse
>>
>>  does anyone know of anyway to style alt tags? just
>>  changing the color from white to something else or
>>  maybe the text color?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>you can't change the colors of the alt text as that is defined by the
>operating system.

Look at the sidebar buttons on:
http://www.powweb.org/site/index.html

On *my* MacIE5... the "alt" text follows the "body" attributes for 
text and link colors:
http://www.powweb.org/site/site.css

Netscape can't see @import and defaults to black.

I don't know about other browsers.

E
-- 



From evolt at spinhead.com  Thu Nov  8 12:06:41 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:06:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
References: <20011108071417.24588.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c16880$3bf74d10$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

I strongly recommend against this. Using a web page as a background
destabilizes Win98 to an extreme. It's a wonderful idea, which I used
extensively at one of my companies, only to spend an enormous amount of time
undoing the damage.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lachlan Cannon" <tiedefenderdelta6 at yahoo.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:14 PM
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background


> Ok, my first message to the list, just been lurking in the
> background for a few weeks (man this thing gets a lot of
> traffic compared to the other lists I'm on).
>
> Anyway, I just started using WIn98's option to use an html
> page as the background, the only problem is when I put
> links there to applications on the computer (instead of
> using icons, this way I don't even have to worry about
> unwanted icons being installed) internet explorer launches
> then gives me the dialog box, asking whether I want to
> download or run the app from where it is, unlike when I
> just type the addresses in by hand for local files. I want
> it to by default run the files, but only for this page, not
> for ones on the web. any ideas for how to get it to do
> this?
>
> Thanks in advance, and if this is OT, I'll just have to owe
> a tip.
>
> Lachlan Cannon
> {luminosity}
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Find a job, post your resume.
> http://careers.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From evolt at spinhead.com  Thu Nov  8 12:10:59 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:10:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] teleportation - holographic videoconferencing
References: <001101c16801$52e8f7a0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <073701c16832$6c446640$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <003f01c16880$dcf52340$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

D'oh! Wrong list. Tip forthcoming.

spinhead

[ . . . ]
> 
> It certainly is off-topic though.
> 
[ . . . ]




From spalmisano at usashs.com  Thu Nov  8 12:13:01 2001
From: spalmisano at usashs.com (Salvatore Palmisano)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:13:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <002d01c16880$3bf74d10$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <000a01c16881$463f2da0$0e00a8c0@shsnet.local>

FWIW, using an HTML background (stock ticker in my case) under Windows 2000
Professional works extremely well.
It also helps to have a whole gang of RAM, but thats the case with most apps
these days.

--Salvatore

Current WinAmp Song:
Hex - Sirf (Hedfunk Remix) (Groove Salad 56k: A nicely chilled plate of
ambie

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of spinhead
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 1:08 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] Win98 html page as background


I strongly recommend against this. Using a web page as a background
destabilizes Win98 to an extreme. It's a wonderful idea, which I used
extensively at one of my companies, only to spend an enormous amount of time
undoing the damage.

spinhead




From nopun at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov  8 12:22:54 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:22:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
References: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <00a901c16882$227ae0c0$7399fea9@tyme>

----- Original Message -----
From: .jeff <jeff at members.evolt.org>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: [thelist] CSS


> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > From: Paul Backhouse
> >
> > does anyone know of anyway to style alt tags? just
> > changing the color from white to something else or
> > maybe the text color?
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
> you can't change the colors of the alt text as that is defined by the
> operating system.
>

TYME} By the OS?  So, alt and title attributes are not controlled the same?
Title attribute, at least, must be determined by browser, as IE5.01 and
NN6.0 display with different bg color on my Win98 OS.  Be nice if the title
attribute could be styled. I use title= a lot to convey additional
information or to define terms.  The lightyellow bg (NN6) is better
contrast; and, most content areas are white.





From ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk  Thu Nov  8 12:29:46 2001
From: ppxsjc1 at nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:29:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] looking for a good book on CSS - Results compiled
In-Reply-To: <01c167ad$b2b82420$ea4e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0111081825320.15808-100000@granby.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>

> tips are good but those css links should also be logged in
> 
>   http://dir.evolt.org/coding/client-side/css/
>
> simon, can you grab the links in ron's/profjj's tips and add them?

Okay I've added the missing ones to the Directory now. Just to let
everyone know, there is a bookmarklet available that makes new submissions
super easy, just surf to the page you want to add, click on the
bookmarklet and select a category - that's all there is to it!

To make the bookmarklet, make the following code into a bookmark (watch
the wrap!):

javascript:if(document.selection){desc=escape(document.selection.createRange().text);}else 
if(document.getSelection){desc=escape(document.getSelection());}else{desc='';}title=escape(document.title);author=escape('');email=escape('');url=escape(document.location);urlstring='?url='+url+'&author='+author+'&email='+email+'&desc='+desc+'&title='+title;void(window.open('http://dir.evolt.org/suggest.php'+urlstring,'newwindow','width=600,height=400,scrollbars=yes'))

Enjoy!


Simon




From IanOrnstein at NC.SLR.com  Thu Nov  8 12:41:31 2001
From: IanOrnstein at NC.SLR.com (Ornstein, Ian)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:41:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
Message-ID: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>

"Netscape can't see @import and defaults to black."

What is the attraction of @Import?

Is it so much better than link?

- IanO -



From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Thu Nov  8 12:45:07 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Thu Nov  8 12:45:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>
Message-ID: <200111081846.fA8Ikp026893@mail.swissonline.ch>

On 8 Nov 01, at 13:43, Ornstein, Ian wrote:
> What is the attraction of @Import?
> Is it so much better than link?

i think there's no real difference to link. aardvark is most probably 
using it to hide certain parts of the style sheet from nn 4.x. that's 
the only css-supportive browser that doesn't recognize it.

n.



From ben_dyer at imaginuity.com  Thu Nov  8 13:00:27 2001
From: ben_dyer at imaginuity.com (Ben Dyer)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:00:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Campaign Web Sites
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011108125625.02989008@mail.imaginuity.com>

Tried some standard Google searches on this, but I don't seem to be getting 
anywhere.

Anybody know of any good political campaign web sites out there, in terms 
of design and/or content.  Doesn't matter about party, office, win/lose, 
over/in progress, even different countries is fine (not just U.S.), 
etc.  Just looking for some good concepts/designs/ideas to use for a 
potential client.

And only for the actual people who are running, not political party sites, 
not supporters, not independent pro sites, etc.

Thanks, guys.

--Ben

-------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
http://www.imaginuity.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------
          Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
-------------------------------------------------------------




From emeyer at lclark.edu  Thu Nov  8 13:00:58 2001
From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:00:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>
References: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>
Message-ID: <a05100308b81086c02012@[149.175.43.62]>

Netscape 4 has such half-assed implementation of CSS, that one might 
wish to use @import to simply kill the stylesheet for that browser.

Because no style implementation can be easier to deal with than buggy 
style implementation.

E

>"Netscape can't see @import and defaults to black."
>
>What is the attraction of @Import?
>
>Is it so much better than link?
>
>- IanO -

-- 



From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 13:01:47 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:01:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>
Message-ID: <20011108190340.98967.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>

It's a hack that allows you to build two stylesheets (one @import
and one LINK REL) to accomodate compliant and non-compliant
browsers. NS4 doesn't recognize @import, so your NS4-happy CSS
would be in the inline or REL stylesheet, then for more compliant
browsers, you could override with more specific and CSS2 styles
in the @import version.

It's a poor-man's browserdetect that isn't JS- or
programmatically-dependent.

/rg

--- "Ornstein, Ian" <IanOrnstein at NC.SLR.com> wrote:
> "Netscape can't see @import and defaults to black."
> 
> What is the attraction of @Import?
> 
> Is it so much better than link?
> 
> - IanO -


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From emeyer at lclark.edu  Thu Nov  8 13:04:31 2001
From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:04:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <20011108190340.98967.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20011108190340.98967.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a0510030ab81087e2643d@[149.175.43.62]>

>It's a hack that allows you to build two stylesheets (one @import
>and one LINK REL)

or just one stylesheet, if you desire.

and @import is not a hack, it's part of the CSS2 spec.

E
-- 



From emagin at onebox.com  Thu Nov  8 13:12:34 2001
From: emagin at onebox.com (emagin)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:12:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA - Visio Tricks - Menu Templates
In-Reply-To: <3BE83982.C992D0BA@mantruc.com>
Message-ID: <IKEDIJDDDBGFHKCCAEAFIEGNDJAA.emagin@onebox.com>

: [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of javier velasco
 : Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:27 AM
 : Hassan Schroeder wrote:
  : http://members.evolt.org/mantruc/wireframe/wf.html

Thanks for the link Hassan. I sent you guys the link to my Visio spec
sketches, with notes on method.

I think it would be interesting if we established some kind of share where
we could more easily display and update these methods.

We all know how to draw little boxes and arrows, but obviously there are
many different ways to do this and then present the information, and
manipulate the information.

So maybe we can come up with some categories: (just shooting from the hip)

Modeling Web Sites categories:

1) Tool used:
HTML
Visio
Flash
PShop/Fireworks
etc....

2) Tool Tricks
Objects
Templates
Code snippets
Droplets
Hot-zones, rollovers
Animations

3) Client Methodologies
Changes during meetings
Changes after meetings
Multiple presentations at once (html, jpg, png)


If you want to update/replace this list, go for it.  Just strip out the ">",
hard returns and " : " characters with this great tool!
Stripmail  http://www.dsoft.com.tr/stripmail/    copy 'n paste the stripped
stuff back in.




From persist1 at io.com  Thu Nov  8 13:13:34 2001
From: persist1 at io.com (Ben Henick)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:13:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <200111081659.fA8GxKjE023547@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0111081306300.18021-100000@bermuda.io.com>

On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, aardvark wrote:

> first off, get your window to a size that is an even multiple of 200 --
> this means 800x800 is best, since you're reducing every 4 pixels to
> one pixel (instead of 3 to 1 at 600x600)...

This one is relatively minor, but helps.

> get the browser window sized, and do an alt-printscreen... this
> captures the current window...

...Or just reset your display resolution and maximize the display
resolution.  If you're happy with merely resizing the window, there are
bookmarklets that will help (javascript: urls in your Links bar will work
for the purpose as well).

<snip>

> play around with Unsharp Mask to regain some of the edges...

[Me too!]  Take note of the fact using the Unsharp Mask filter will also
have the consequence of increasing image contrast.

> see if that does the trick...

When working with screencaps, I've found that the optimization settings
and file formats are important.  You'll want to spend LOTS of time with
your Optimize palette in ImageReady to get the best compromise.  The
caveat here is that (surprise!) JPEG's likely a poor format choice if the
page you're capturing has a lot of white space.  If that's the case,
you'll want (if you're on a PC) to switch to {Display Properties >
Appearance} settings that don't use gradients or lots of colors.


-- 
Ben Henick
Web Author At-Large              Managing Editor
http://www.io.com/persist1/      http://www.digital-web.com/
persist1 at io.com                  bmh at digital-web.com
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"
"I think so, Brain, but... (snort) no, no, it's too stupid."
"We will disguise ourselves as a cow."
"Oh!" (giggles) "That was it exactly!"




From burhankh at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  8 13:17:37 2001
From: burhankh at hotmail.com (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:17:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] Validating CSS
Message-ID: <F105uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS00021539@hotmail.com>

Hey :

  Had a similar issue when I was trying to validate my site. Here is the 
solution(s) :

1. Change your CSS tag to this :
   <LINK href="myfile.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

2. Add this META tag :
   <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">

   Of course, you can change the charset if you wish.

Both these tags need to be withing the <head> tags, although I suspect you 
know that already.

If you use, javascript, or any other script, it is advised to add this meta 
tag as well :

<META http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" content="text/html">

In addition, to verify as HTML, you have to have the type="" attribute in 
your <script> tags. set it to "text/html" as in :
<script language="Javascript" type="text/html">

Hope this helps,
Burhan Khalid







_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Thu Nov  8 13:25:00 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:25:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
References: <ILEBKOKPAFLAPOPANGAHGEKMEMAA.jeff@members.evolt.org> <00a901c16882$227ae0c0$7399fea9@tyme>
Message-ID: <008c01c1688b$552e6010$2860398a@newcos.com>

Tyme,

> TYME} By the OS?  So, alt and title attributes are not controlled the
same?
> Title attribute, at least, must be determined by browser, as IE5.01 and
> NN6.0 display with different bg color on my Win98 OS.  Be nice if the
title
> attribute could be styled. I use title= a lot to convey additional
> information or to define terms.  The lightyellow bg (NN6) is better
> contrast; and, most content areas are white.

    Probably more accurately put, IE relies on the OS to style its tooltips
(which is actually what we're talking about here), whereas Mozilla/Netscape
6.x styles them on its own -- as it does with much of its chrome. But there
is no CSS property that allows the designer to style the look of the
tooltip.
    For IE 5+, there is, however, a default "ToolTip" behavior [1] for
producing a DHTML tooltip that might be of interest. It allows CSS styling
and has its own properties and events.

James Aylard

1.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/behaviors/library/tooltip/tooltip.
asp




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Thu Nov  8 13:27:39 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:27:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] Validating CSS
References: <F105uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS00021539@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009101c1688b$b4217940$2860398a@newcos.com>

Burhan,

> In addition, to verify as HTML, you have to have the type="" attribute in
> your <script> tags. set it to "text/html" as in :
> <script language="Javascript" type="text/html">

    I think you meant "text/javascript" (or "text/jscript", "text/vbscript",
etc.)

James Aylard




From spalmisano at usashs.com  Thu Nov  8 13:28:09 2001
From: spalmisano at usashs.com (Salvatore Palmisano)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:28:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
In-Reply-To: <F105uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS00021539@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c1688b$c731ff50$0e00a8c0@shsnet.local>

Anyone using MS Visual Interdev who can give me a hand?
Im using it on a development box and its giving me a hard time.

Ive created a virtual directory in IIS 5 (Windows 2000 Pro SP2) and pointed
it to its content and am able to browse it as expected.  When I fire up VID
and attempt to create a new project, I select the web server (my local
machine) and look for an existing web, its not listed.  If I try to 'create
a new application', it tells me that it cannot convert a virtual directory
into a subweb remotely.
In the IIS MMC snap-in it doesnt give me the option to convert anything,
just configure permissions.

I know VID requires the FPSEs installed, and they are, but I cant seem to
remember how I did this in the past when setting up VID.

Thanks.
--Salvatore

Current WinAmp Song:
Shantel - The Baby (Groove Salad 56k: A nicely chilled plate of ambient
beats




From Matt at grndwtr.com  Thu Nov  8 13:39:53 2001
From: Matt at grndwtr.com (Matthias Ritzkowski)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:39:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
Message-ID: <8179FA78B6D0D111AA53006097B0128007AF35@mail1>

Hi Salvatore!
Why did you create the virtual directory first?
Do you want to use an existing web?
I would try to create a new application first.
See if that works out before

If not, see link below
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q253/7/99.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=t
ech&FR=0&qry=cannot%20convert%20a%20virtual%20directory%20into%20a%20subweb%
20remotely&rnk=3&src=DHCS_MSPSS_tech_SRCH&SPR=MSALL

Good luck!
 Regards
Matthias Ritzkowski

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Salvatore Palmisano [mailto:spalmisano at usashs.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 14:30
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
>
>
>Anyone using MS Visual Interdev who can give me a hand?
>Im using it on a development box and its giving me a hard time.
>
>Ive created a virtual directory in IIS 5 (Windows 2000 Pro 
>SP2) and pointed
>it to its content and am able to browse it as expected.  When 
>I fire up VID
>and attempt to create a new project, I select the web server (my local
>machine) and look for an existing web, its not listed.  If I 
>try to 'create

>a new application', it tells me that it cannot convert a virtual directory
into a subweb remotely.
>In the IIS MMC snap-in it doesnt give me the option to convert 
>anything,
>just configure permissions.
>
>I know VID requires the FPSEs installed, and they are, but I 
>cant seem to
>remember how I did this in the past when setting up VID.
>
>Thanks.
>--Salvatore
>
>Current WinAmp Song:
>Shantel - The Baby (Groove Salad 56k: A nicely chilled plate of ambient
>beats
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
>



From burhankh at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  8 13:40:51 2001
From: burhankh at hotmail.com (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:40:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS Validation [ Part II ]
Message-ID: <F119llUMiOUy6QGeKbg00006568@hotmail.com>

Correcting a few errors,

The <script> tag should look like this :
<script language="Javascript" src="URI" type="text/javascript">
on my last post, I mistakenly put "text/html", which will not work.

Also, from the W3 HTML Documentation on scripts :

[ talking about lanuguage= attribute ]

This attribute specifies the scripting language of the contents of this 
element. Its value is an identifier for the language, but since these 
identifiers are not standard, this attribute has been deprecated in favor of 
type.

[ ... ]

Sorry, and hope this helps,
Burhan Khalid



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From spalmisano at usashs.com  Thu Nov  8 13:48:08 2001
From: spalmisano at usashs.com (Salvatore Palmisano)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:48:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
In-Reply-To: <8179FA78B6D0D111AA53006097B0128007AF35@mail1>
Message-ID: <001201c1688e$91fb8830$0e00a8c0@shsnet.local>

Id created them first so I can set the location of the content manually...I
dont want everything housed under c:\inetpub\wwwroot
When creating a new web with VID or via the snap-in, it greys out the
ability to specify an alternate location (on the same machine) for the
content.

Does VID require everything under /inetpub/wwwroot?

--Salvatore

Current WinAmp Song:
Sweetback - Sensations (Groove Salad 56k: A nicely chilled plate of ambient
b

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matthias Ritzkowski
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:42 PM
To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
Subject: RE: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6


Hi Salvatore!
Why did you create the virtual directory first?
Do you want to use an existing web?
I would try to create a new application first.
See if that works out before

Good luck!
 Regards
Matthias Ritzkowski




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 13:58:38 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:58:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <200111081846.fA8Ikp026893@mail.swissonline.ch>
References: <313308805876D511BB8B00D0B7B961F53CC403@excnc4.nc.slr.com>
Message-ID: <200111081958.fA8JwbjE032529@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Niklaus Haldimann" <nhaldimann at gmx.ch>
>
> > What is the attraction of @Import?
> > Is it so much better than link?
> 
> i think there's no real difference to link. aardvark is most probably
> using it to hide certain parts of the style sheet from nn 4.x. that's
> the only css-supportive browser that doesn't recognize it.

erm, just saw my name... was i in this thread?

anyway, the reason *i* use @import it because NN4.x doesn't 
recognize it, and therefore doesn't use that CSS...

why would you want to do this?

short answer:
line-height

NN4.x has all sorts of bugs with elements (images in particular) 
stuck into blocks of copy with line-height applied... to get around 
this, but still have it look good in the browsers that *don't* eat line-
height (or other buggy CSS as implemented by NN4.x), i use the 
@import directive so that the newer browsers pull it in, but the 
older ones don't...

as an example:
http://alliancefoundation.roswellpark.org/document_660_226.html

using a line-height attribute caused the image to overlap its caption 
text...

but moving it to the @import CSS file prevents that in NN4.x... you 
can see what i did in view-
source:http://alliancefoundation.roswellpark.org/additional.css

so, hope that answers any questions you may have had, although i 
think i still missed how my name came up...




From Matt at grndwtr.com  Thu Nov  8 13:59:00 2001
From: Matt at grndwtr.com (Matthias Ritzkowski)
Date: Thu Nov  8 13:59:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
Message-ID: <8179FA78B6D0D111AA53006097B0128007AF36@mail1>

No.

I have the default web site on another drive as well.
I set everything up by the book (C:/inetpub/wwwroot).
Then I created an inetpub/wwwroot on another drive.
Then I go into IIS Manager and look at properties for default web site, Home
Directory.
Change that to <newdrive>:/<new directory>
That way all my webs are off the system drive.
Obviously this works per web site, not per web

Note: I do use a separate Webserver, though!

Matthias

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Salvatore Palmisano [mailto:spalmisano at usashs.com]
>Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 14:50
>To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>Subject: RE: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
>
>
>Id created them first so I can set the location of the content 
>manually...I
>dont want everything housed under c:\inetpub\wwwroot
>When creating a new web with VID or via the snap-in, it greys out the
>ability to specify an alternate location (on the same machine) for the
>content.
>
>Does VID require everything under /inetpub/wwwroot?
>
>--Salvatore
>
>Current WinAmp Song:
>Sweetback - Sensations (Groove Salad 56k: A nicely chilled 
>plate of ambient
>b
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
>[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Matthias Ritzkowski
>Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:42 PM
>To: 'thelist at lists.evolt.org'
>Subject: RE: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
>
>
>Hi Salvatore!
>Why did you create the virtual directory first?
>Do you want to use an existing web?
>I would try to create a new application first.
>See if that works out before
>
>Good luck!
> Regards
>Matthias Ritzkowski
>
>
>---------------------------------------
>For unsubscribe and other options, including
>the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
>http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
>



From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Thu Nov  8 14:09:44 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:09:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] are your eyelids twitching? (tip)
In-Reply-To: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJEECFCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>
References: <JOEEKHHJKFILNEFBBDEJEECFCFAA.kernel@esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <12807976.1005232303@u>

On 11/5/2001 4:59 PM +0000 Ross Lynch wrote:

> Check your monitor manual or in recent version of
> Windows under the Display Control Panel, there's an
> option when you're changing the frequency only to
> display supported modes. In any case, Windows will
> switch back after 15 seconds if you don't click to
> say "Yes, keep this new setting".

Sadly this method isn't always accurate. It reports, for example, that
my CPD-E500 can't do 1600x1200 at 85hz, which is its optimal resolution
according to Sony. A good program, if you've never used it before, that
is a little more accurate is PowerStrip[1]. It's also nice from a
design standpoint because you can configure a toolbar with all sorts of
different display modes and switch between them with one click. Nice
for checking if the site you designed at 1600x1200x32 works at
640x480x8.

Since I'm writing already, maybe I should squeeze some more info in.
Higher refresh rates become increasingly more important with the size
of the monitor. While it's fairly easy to be comfortable at 60hz with a
14" or 15" monitor, it is more difficult on a 17". Once you get into
the realm of 19" and 21" monitors, even 75hz is too low[2]. If you go
monitor shopping, make sure your monitor can do the following:

75hz @ 1024x768 for 17"
85hz @ 1280x1024 or 1280x960 (I prefer 1280x1024, but it skews the
aspect ratio compared to the other VGA display modes) for 19"
85hz @ 1600x1200 for 21"

If your monitor can do higher than that, that's a nice bonus and you
should go for it, but you should definitely be skeptical of any monitor
that can't meet what I've outlined above. Refresh rate, MUCH more than
max resolution (which is irrelevant, NEVER run your monitor at its
maximum resolution on any decently large screen) largely corresponds
directly to the quality of the monitor itself.

Finally, never skimp on your monitor. This is one of the few things you
can buy for your computer that won't be obsolete in a year. It, your
keyboard, your desk and your chair are the most important pieces of
your computing experience and if they are of poor quality all sorts of
nasty ailments (and lots of lost productivity[3]) can result.

Regards,
Toby

[1] - http://www.entechtaiwan.com/ps.htm
[2] - There are people who, by all accounts, can handle these things
fine. On of my roommates in college, for example, ran his 17" monitor
at 1600x1200 at 60hz for years with apparently no ill effects. I got a
headache after looking for it for more than 10 seconds or so, however.
[3] - I recently moved into a new apartment, and while waiting for my
furniture to arrive I was forced to sit in one of my roommate's lawn
chairs with my monitor on a box. I just found that I didn't want to sit
there at all and it made it a lot harder for me to get anything done.

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From webguru at vsnl.net  Thu Nov  8 14:15:22 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:15:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109001135.0295b1a8@203.197.12.4>

Aardvark,

>now's your chance... you've seen me evangalizing on this list
>forever while rarely ponying up examples (although quite a lot of
>you have looked on your own)... i've just launched our new
>corporate site, and i'm looking for some input...
>http://algonquinstudios.com/

Ah, finally found some time to write a detailed reply to this. I hate 
fluffy, dishonest writing so I'll just be blunt about what I like and what 
I don't. Most people have already pointed out the good part. I'm going to 
play devil's advocate :)

WARNING: This is a lonnnnnnnnng post. If you can't spare the time, move 
along. This isn't the post you're looking for ;)


Let's pretend that I'm a potential client who wanted to build a dynamic web 
site (I'm intentionally leaving this vague) and someone just told me about 
this company called Algun-fin, er, Algae-kin, damn, Algonquin Studios that 
could do it for me :P (it's a tongue twister, aard)


First visit: home page

User impressions:

1) Nice colour scheme. Subdued, but then I like grey. Wish the text wasn't 
right aligned though. :)

2) Hmmm... "Enterprise solutions experts", eh? Wonder if they can integrate 
my COBOL-based inventory management system running on OS/400 and DB2 with 
my new Win2000 and SQL-Server based setup.

OK, maybe I'm a little more ruffled by this than others, possibly because 
my last company's management had delusions of being an "enterprise 
solutions" company when they had neither the experience nor the expertise. 
It's killing them now.

I'm jumping ahead of the home page here, but as I looked over the rest of 
your site, I found no evidence of any "enterprise" solution you've done. I 
don't mean to sound like an arsehole, but you should probably change  it to 
something like "Web solutions experts". I might be wrong. I'm just telling 
you what I figured out from the site.

3) What's this funny graphic? Oh, it's a warped screenshot. Cool.

4) The copy is useful, but it jumps out at me without setting a context. 
What you need to do is have a title like "Featured case study" before your 
intro. Otherwise, I expect it to be something about your company.

5) No, I don't think I'll read the case study yet. The home page hasn't 
really told me about what kind of work they do, so let me move on to 
"Services".


Designer notes:

1) I run 1024*768 on a 17" monitor. But I have a bookmarklet that lets me 
switch the site to 800*600. Could you tighten up the spacing a bit so that 
it fits completely into a 800*600 screen? Perhaps reduce the space between 
your company name and the tag line?

2) Are the IE toolbars in the screenshot required? They add an unnecessary 
"grey-ness"  to the otherwise colourful graphic. Cropping it would give you 
a bit more space for your screenshot too.

3) Screenshot is clickable. URL is non-intuitive so it needs an ALT tag to 
tell me a bit more about where I'm going. Not essential, but nice to have.

With that, we move to...


SERVICES

User impressions:

1) That "content management" bit in the middle looks out of place.

2) What's "Cha-ching!"? What's that doing in the services section?

3) [Wondering] Do these guys do web applications? Where can I read about 
that? Ah, there's a link called "implementation". Click on it. (I only read 
upto the code monkeys part. People *sometimes* scan on the Web :)

4) OK, now I'm really shocked. When I clicked on "implementation", I 
expected to read a bit about what kind of work you do. Do you build web 
applications using PHP on Solaris? Do you do "portals"? What technologies 
do you use? Instead I go to a case study. And the case study isn't about a 
technology solution, it's about how "Each section of the site is 'branded' 
with a different color".

(yes, I made a mistake in not reading the rest of the text that said, "and 
make the designs of others work on the web. No problem.". But it could 
happen with potential clients. It's the concept of satisficing.

So... I think you need to describe your expertise on specific platforms on 
some page. I recommend that case studies be put into a separate section to 
minimise confusion.

It's a question of the order in which I want the information. As a 
potential client, my first thought would be "what can these guys do?", "who 
are these guys?", and if I'm happy with the answers to the previous 
questions, "what work have they done before?"

(btw, ditto for all other headings. They all lead to case studies. As a 
first time visitor, this is all a bit too soon for me. I want to get to 
know your company a bit more.)


Designer notes:

1) The graphics for the headings seem to be overshadowing the text. 
Personal perception only. You need to make the text stand out a bit more. 
How about converting them into GIFs with the same typeface used in your logo?

2) Oooh, Jakob Nielsen is going to get his stick out and whack you when he 
sees the "Read more" hyperlink on the left as plain black text ;)
It's a hyperlink. Make it look like a link in some way. Different colour, 
underlined, whatever...

3) Section headings text not hyperlinked???

Anyway, let's go now to...


PRINCIPALS

User impressions:

1) Oh, good. Certainly seem to be a bunch of capable and competent 
individuals.
2) What are those weird graphics on the right?

Designer notes:

1) Your names are "floating" between the blocks of text. Subheads (in this 
case, your names) must be closer to the text they introduce than from the 
previous block of text. And I'd also eliminate the space between the name 
and the title.

(ASIDE) If you want to project a formal, serious, image, that's fine. If 
not, may I suggest you switch to a "first-name at domain.com" email address 
convention? It may be a subtle psychological point, but when I'm sending 
mail to "adrian at algonquinstudios.com", I'll mentally tend to be a bit more 
open than if I were emailing "roselli at algonquinstudios.com". Not 
design-related, but I thought I'd mention it.

Next section is...


ARTICLES

User impressions:

1) Looks good. Let me read some of 'em. Nice...
2) Why are press releases in here? Shouldn't they be in a "news" section or 
something? And why do they appear above the actual "articles"?

Designer notes:

1) You need to pick a few more of your articles to display here. The extra 
HTML won't be much and it'll look like a rich repository, which is what you 
want.
2) What's the article on the Evolt redesign doing on the first page? For a 
person removed from thelist, it doesn't mean much. I'd pick articles like 
the following:

a) Give the User Control Over Your Fonts
b) Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part I-III
c) Using Excel Spreadsheets as Web Data Sources

Varied enough to make a positive impression.

And lastly, we go to...


CLIENTS

User impressions:

1) Wow, they certainly have a lot of clients. Must be doing good business. 
Certainly not your average mom-n-pop HTML shop.

2) Hey, which of these are web applications and which are design-heavy 
projects?


Designer notes:

1) Your icon for "off site link" is relatively clear (if not immediately, 
at least in context). Your case study icon could be changed to a stack of 
papers (something like "4" from the Wingdings font) or similar.

2) Uh oh, Jakob's baaaaack! Your links are not consistent in their 
destination. For clients for whom you have case studies, the hyperlink goes 
to the case study, while in other cases, it goes directly to the site in 
question. Not good.


Well, that was my critique. I haven't reviewed the site in much detail and 
I haven't touched the careers section, so I'm sorry. I also apologise if I 
sounded way too harsh.

Hope it was helpful.

What, you actually made it this far? I'm amazed!

Cheers,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Thu Nov  8 14:26:05 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:26:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fw: BBEdit for the PC
In-Reply-To: <19550578968.20011108132704@kfx-design.co.uk>
References: <19550578968.20011108132704@kfx-design.co.uk>
Message-ID: <13789958.1005233285@u>

On 11/8/2001 1:27 PM +0000 kristina wrote:

> (now all I want is an offline version of 'something' that will file
> all my evolt messages in some sort of
> logical-searcahble-easily-updateable-order.)

I use Procmail, IMAP-SSL and Mulberry to handle this. When I'm away
from my machine, IMP serves as a decent web-based interface to the
whole thing :P.

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From webguru at vsnl.net  Thu Nov  8 14:27:47 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:27:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] Satisficing
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015618.02923198@203.197.12.4>

Oops, in my last post, I tossed out jargon like "satisficing" without 
explaining it. I meant to add it as a footnote, but forgot.

In any case, here's a good link that explains it:
http://www.xrefer.com/entry/553457


Actually, you should probably read this too:
http://www.sensible.com/chapter.html

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From sgd at ti3.com  Thu Nov  8 14:31:09 2001
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:31:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Semi-OT: VID 6
Message-ID: <AE9BEBC586A48B4BA47843C4148B82512E65F6@apollo.ti3.com>

did you set the site to run FPE's? they're not on by default-- check
your web site settings in the MMC...

sgd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Salvatore Palmisano [mailto:spalmisano at usashs.com]
> 
> Id created them first so I can set the location of the 
> content manually...I
> dont want everything housed under c:\inetpub\wwwroot
> When creating a new web with VID or via the snap-in, it greys out the
> ability to specify an alternate location (on the same machine) for the
> content.



From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Thu Nov  8 14:31:30 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:31:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Linux: how to add to $PATH var?
In-Reply-To: <3BEAAC89.F34DFD1C@webtuitive.com>
References: <3BEAAC89.F34DFD1C@webtuitive.com>
Message-ID: <14115086.1005233610@u>

On 11/8/2001 8:02 AM -0800 Hassan Schroeder wrote:

> While still logged in, open another window on your desktop and 
> log in through that; make sure everything works normally (or at 
> least as you expected!) in that window. Then you should be OK 
> to fully log out.   

To this effect, since I figured he was using an xterm of some sort
rather than being a complete command line ninja, the suggestion of
modifying the .bash_profile won't work. This file is only read on login
shells, which an xterm is not. Best way to handle this is to edit
.bashrc, then put a line in .bash_profile like:

. $HOME/.bashrc

so that it gets read no matter what you do, which is probably what you
want anyway.

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From mwallace at bindview.com  Thu Nov  8 14:36:53 2001
From: mwallace at bindview.com (Wallace, Mark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:36:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
Message-ID: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287303975798@BVMAIL>

One popular site ripper, Teleport Pro, lets you put whatever you want into
the user agant string - I'm sure there are others. It also has the option to
ignore the robots directive - 
-light

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:jedimaster at macromedia.com]

It's probably a fake - don't some browsers on Linux let you easily
modify your user agent? 



From trb at cartoonviolence.net  Thu Nov  8 14:39:55 2001
From: trb at cartoonviolence.net (Tobyn Baugher)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:39:55 2001
Subject: [thelist] mini screenshot techniques
In-Reply-To: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
References: <FFEALMFANBGEAPAHEPNOMEJJDGAA.sbaier@guinnessgroup.com>
Message-ID: <14620312.1005234115@u>

On 11/8/2001 10:22 AM -0600 Simon Baier wrote:

> Does anybody have advise on how to convert a screenshot
> [Alt][PrtScrn] into a decent looking thumbnail ~ 200px x 200px.  No
> matter what I try it always comes out looking grainy. I've seen clean
> looking mini screenshots, so I know it's possible, just never figured
> out how.  Do I need to use different screen capture software?

If you don't want to lose detail, why not try cropping the image down
to the desired size rather than scaling? I read a nifty article on
thumbnailing techniques somewhere, unfortunately the URL escapes me.

--
Tobyn Baugher <trb at cartoonviolence.net>
http://www.cartoonviolence.net
AIM: unlewp  ICQ: 14281524  EFnet: toby/trb



From chrischandler67 at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 14:40:12 2001
From: chrischandler67 at earthlink.net (Chris Chandler)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:40:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] community newspapers online
Message-ID: <00c401c16895$18023c20$6401a8c0@chris>

Hello all,

I'm consulting with the publisher of a community newspaper.
The web site is very vanilla right now, but they do a decent
job of posting the printed stories on the web site in a
timely manner and the site is well represented on Google and
other search engines.

We'd like to do more with the community aspects and
hopefully add functionality and content that will help the
web site at least pay for itself. We're looking at things
like local auctions, local business directories, discussion
boards etc.

My question for the smarties on this group is: are there any
small newspaper sites (20,000 printed papers distributed,
about 40,000 hits/month) out there that are doing
interesting things?

Thanks in advance,

--
Chris Chandler






From richard.bennett at skynet.be  Thu Nov  8 14:43:44 2001
From: richard.bennett at skynet.be (Richard Bennett)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:43:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
References: <200111072021.fA7KLxjE009628@leo.evolt.org> <200111081626.fA8GQGjE021388@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <01a201c1688d$155f5050$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

I just noticed the navigation is broken on this site:

http://valkro.com/

The never ending problem of linking to live sites!.

Richard.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>




From webguru at vsnl.net  Thu Nov  8 14:43:58 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:43:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] RE: Setting/Customising Internet Explorer useragent string
In-Reply-To: <20011108183549.09316C14B@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109021101.02915308@203.197.12.4>

At 12:05 AM 11/9/2001, you wrote:
>  >Does anyone happen to know whether it is possible to customise the
>  >useragent string in Internet Explorer:
>
>For Windows, it's stored here:
>
>   HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\
>                             CurrentVersion\Internet Settings

Be sure you really want to do this. It could have unintended consequences.

Some web sites that use browser detection based on the user agent string 
might choke. They probably have a "NS or IE" script running, but if your 
string is something like "My browser rocks", get ready to see some pretty 
wonky output.

You have been warned.

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From mike.king at redroom.co.uk  Thu Nov  8 14:50:03 2001
From: mike.king at redroom.co.uk (Mike King)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:50:03 2001
Subject: [thelist] CIW training...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108192033.03055090@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Hello everyone,

Is anyone here CIW Certified?
Is it worth the cash, fame and fortune that will inevitably arise from 
getting it  ;)

Cheers
mk

--
http://www.redroom.co.uk
t. 07971 292 999
e. mike.king at redroom.co.uk




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 14:54:28 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 14:54:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109001135.0295b1a8@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <200111082054.fA8KsRjE003248@leo.evolt.org>

trimmed as much as i could, folks...

> From: Madhu Menon <webguru at vsnl.net>
[...]
> Algonquin Studios that could do it for me :P (it's a tongue twister,
> aard)

yes it is...

> First visit: home page
[...]
> 1) Nice colour scheme. Subdued, but then I like grey. Wish the text
> wasn't right aligned though. :)

grrr.... i'm still hedging on this one...

> 2) Hmmm... "Enterprise solutions experts", eh? Wonder if they can
> integrate my COBOL-based inventory management system running on OS/400
> and DB2 with my new Win2000 and SQL-Server based setup.

yes... in fact, we've done stuff very similar... most recently was 
getting a terradata database to chat real-time with a SQL database 
over a VPN to feed into a CMS based on SQL and XML... actually, 
it's a bit more than that, but that's the short-short... oh, and i don't 
do that stuff, the other guys do... it was the city of buffalo online 
parking ticket payment system... with more coming...

[...]
> done. I don't mean to sound like an arsehole, but you should probably
> change  it to something like "Web solutions experts". I might be
> wrong. I'm just telling you what I figured out from the site.

no, good point... i think we should push our enterprise solutions, 
because we have a bunch, many of which never see the web...

> 3) What's this funny graphic? Oh, it's a warped screenshot. Cool.

yeah, left it in the over too long... little tip, resizinb screenshots by 
printing them full-size on Shrinky-Dinks(r) and then baking them 
and re-scanning them at the target size just does *not* work...

> 4) The copy is useful, but it jumps out at me without setting a
> context. What you need to do is have a title like "Featured case
> study" before your intro. Otherwise, I expect it to be something about
> your company.

point taken... i still like the lack of context, though...

[...]
> Designer notes:
> 
> 1) I run 1024*768 on a 17" monitor. But I have a bookmarklet that lets
> me switch the site to 800*600. Could you tighten up the spacing a bit
> so that it fits completely into a 800*600 screen? Perhaps reduce the
> space between your company name and the tag line?

er, it does... down to 640x480, in fact... browser/OS?  the specific 
page you're seeing?  what's cut off?

> 2) Are the IE toolbars in the screenshot required? They add an
> unnecessary "grey-ness"  to the otherwise colourful graphic. Cropping
> it would give you a bit more space for your screenshot too.

wanted to show the sites in various browsers, to show we're not 
just IE/win-centric... lots of caps in NN as well as on MacOS, too...

> 3) Screenshot is clickable. URL is non-intuitive so it needs an ALT
> tag to tell me a bit more about where I'm going. Not essential, but
> nice to have.

hmmm... again with the exploration... dunno...

[...]
> SERVICES
> 
> User impressions:
> 
> 1) That "content management" bit in the middle looks out of place.

doesn't come off as a featured service?

> 2) What's "Cha-ching!"? What's that doing in the services section?

hmmm...

> 3) [Wondering] Do these guys do web applications? Where can I read
> about that? Ah, there's a link called "implementation". Click on it.
> (I only read upto the code monkeys part. People *sometimes* scan on
> the Web :)
> 
> 4) OK, now I'm really shocked. When I clicked on "implementation", I
> expected to read a bit about what kind of work you do. Do you build
> web applications using PHP on Solaris? Do you do "portals"? What
> technologies do you use? Instead I go to a case study. And the case
> study isn't about a technology solution, it's about how "Each section
> of the site is 'branded' with a different color".

good point... what i tried to do is *show* what we do, instead of 
telling... too informal?  think people won't look or read it all?

[...]
> It's a question of the order in which I want the information. As a
> potential client, my first thought would be "what can these guys do?",
> "who are these guys?", and if I'm happy with the answers to the
> previous questions, "what work have they done before?"
[...]

good questions... certainly worth putting into our services section...

> Designer notes:
> 
> 1) The graphics for the headings seem to be overshadowing the text.
> Personal perception only. You need to make the text stand out a bit
> more. How about converting them into GIFs with the same typeface used
> in your logo?

....anti......gif.......text......ugh......

oh well, worth exploring...

> 2) Oooh, Jakob Nielsen is going to get his stick out and whack you
> when he sees the "Read more" hyperlink on the left as plain black text
> ;) It's a hyperlink. Make it look like a link in some way. Different
> colour, underlined, whatever...

feh... however, i was concerned about that... testing showed the 
ellipse actually made people roll over there and click... that 
seemed to be adequate...

> 3) Section headings text not hyperlinked???

huh?

[...]
> PRINCIPALS
> 
> User impressions:
> 
> 1) Oh, good. Certainly seem to be a bunch of capable and competent
> individuals. 2) What are those weird graphics on the right?

heh... out of date copy... you may have read the comments on the 
images being an 'easter egg' feature...

> Designer notes:
> 
> 1) Your names are "floating" between the blocks of text. Subheads (in
> this case, your names) must be closer to the text they introduce than
> from the previous block of text. And I'd also eliminate the space
> between the name and the title.

yeah, i've been meaning to de-pad the bottoms with CSS...

> (ASIDE) If you want to project a formal, serious, image, that's fine.
> If not, may I suggest you switch to a "first-name at domain.com" email
> address convention? It may be a subtle psychological point, but when
> I'm sending mail to "adrian at algonquinstudios.com", I'll mentally tend
> to be a bit more open than if I were emailing
> "roselli at algonquinstudios.com". Not design-related, but I thought I'd
> mention it.

hmmmm... those aliases exist... not a bad idea...

[...]
> ARTICLES
> 
> User impressions:
> 
> 1) Looks good. Let me read some of 'em. Nice...
> 2) Why are press releases in here? Shouldn't they be in a "news"
> section or something? And why do they appear above the actual
> "articles"?

let's call it, "unable to decide-itus"... overall, in testing it, people 
didn't go to 'press' or 'technical articles'... but they went to 
'articles'... dunno why... so i just built it out that way...

> Designer notes:
> 
> 1) You need to pick a few more of your articles to display here. The
> extra HTML won't be much and it'll look like a rich repository, which
> is what you want. 2) What's the article on the Evolt redesign doing on
> the first page? For a person removed from thelist, it doesn't mean
> much. I'd pick articles like the following:

right now, i think it's most recent, but that's actually very easy to 
change... i also felt more than three was too much...

> a) Give the User Control Over Your Fonts
> b) Real-World Browser Size Stats, Part I-III
> c) Using Excel Spreadsheets as Web Data Sources

yeah, i like those, but the first is so out-of-date now... i think the 
liquid design article is stronger...

[...]
> CLIENTS
> 
> User impressions:
> 
> 1) Wow, they certainly have a lot of clients. Must be doing good
> business. Certainly not your average mom-n-pop HTML shop.
> 
> 2) Hey, which of these are web applications and which are design-heavy
> projects?

heh... case studies explain *some*, others are linked to sites, the 
rest are primarily enterprise apps... but yeah, i shouldn't have to 
explain like this...

> Designer notes:
> 
> 1) Your icon for "off site link" is relatively clear (if not
> immediately, at least in context). Your case study icon could be
> changed to a stack of papers (something like "4" from the Wingdings
> font) or similar.

don't think it would too much like another off-site icon?  the 
magnifying glass has worked well for us in the past, and it implies 
'more detail' to me...

> 2) Uh oh, Jakob's baaaaack! Your links are not consistent in their
> destination. For clients for whom you have case studies, the hyperlink
> goes to the case study, while in other cases, it goes directly to the
> site in question. Not good.

that's what the icons are for... two kinds of links, two kinds of 
icons... unless i messed up, there should be two kinds of links, 
with each kind branded...

> Well, that was my critique. I haven't reviewed the site in much detail
> and I haven't touched the careers section, so I'm sorry. I also
> apologise if I sounded way too harsh.

so, no resume coming?

and don't apologize, this is what i'm looking for...

> Hope it was helpful.

yep




From norman.bunn at mindspring.com  Thu Nov  8 15:06:47 2001
From: norman.bunn at mindspring.com (Norman Bunn)
Date: Thu Nov  8 15:06:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] community newspapers online
In-Reply-To: <00c401c16895$18023c20$6401a8c0@chris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011108155202.01662de8@pop.mindspring.com>

Actually, my local paper was not and is not inclined to 
(www.newberryobserver.com), so I built a community site of my own 
(www.aroundnewberry.com) to meet the need.  It is still in its infancy, but 
I have gotten good local acceptance.  Will soon be adding forums and 
news/announcements.

You might also consider a canned community site.  I know I saw one once 
built using PHP, but my e-mail got wasted last week and I can't find the site.

Norman

>My question for the smarties on this group is: are there any
>small newspaper sites (20,000 printed papers distributed,
>about 40,000 hits/month) out there that are doing
>interesting things?
>--
>Chris Chandler




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 15:17:47 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 15:17:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <01a201c1688d$155f5050$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <200111082117.fA8LHkjE004101@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Richard Bennett" <richard.bennett at skynet.be>
>
> I just noticed the navigation is broken on this site:
> 
> http://valkro.com/

er, what's busted?  i just ran through it and it seems fine...




From judah at wiredotter.com  Thu Nov  8 15:21:17 2001
From: judah at wiredotter.com (judah at wiredotter.com)
Date: Thu Nov  8 15:21:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do,
  really)
In-Reply-To: <200111082117.fA8LHkjE004101@leo.evolt.org>
References: <01a201c1688d$155f5050$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011108132434.00b0ef38@mail.site-o-matic.com>

At 04:19 PM 11/8/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> > From: "Richard Bennett" <richard.bennett at skynet.be>
> >
> > I just noticed the navigation is broken on this site:
> >
> > http://valkro.com/
>
>er, what's busted?  i just ran through it and it seems fine...

The rollovers on the left hand navigation are missing.  For instance,

http://valkro.com/images/b_support_2.gif is a 404 error.

Judah




From bobd at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 15:45:22 2001
From: bobd at members.evolt.org (Bob Davis)
Date: Thu Nov  8 15:45:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <200111082117.fA8LHkjE004101@leo.evolt.org>
References: <200111082117.fA8LHkjE004101@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <a05101009b810adba410e@[192.168.123.123]>

At 4:19 PM -0500 11/8/01, you wrote:


>  > From: "Richard Bennett" <richard.bennett at skynet.be>
>>
>>  I just noticed the navigation is broken on this site:
>>
>>  http://valkro.com/
>
>er, what's busted?  i just ran through it and it seems fine...

The mouseover buttons.  The OnMouseOver src's are not there.

bob

-- 
bob davis
bobd at members.evolt.org
http://www.bobdavis.org/



From mail at richardinfo.com  Thu Nov  8 16:08:41 2001
From: mail at richardinfo.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Thu Nov  8 16:08:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] LLC with international partners
Message-ID: <020001c16898$f64f3bb0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>

Hi,
I am looking into setting up a LLC with two colleges based in Minnesota.
The main problem is I am British, and live in Belgium.

Naturally I asked my accountant to look into this, but I wondered if anyone
on the list had any experience with this?

Can someone living overseas be a part-owner of a US  LLC?

Any insight is appreciated!

Cheers,
Richard.

Maybe a bit off-topic, let me think, tip, tip... ah yes,

<tip type=HTML>
Do you want to display some HTML source-code on your website?
replace the left tags with &lt; and the HTML isn't rendered, just the
source:

&lt;div>hello &lt;/div>

will show as:

<div>hello </div>

</tip>




From bev at enso-company.com  Thu Nov  8 16:18:14 2001
From: bev at enso-company.com (Bev Corwin)
Date: Thu Nov  8 16:18:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] LLC with international partners
References: <020001c16898$f64f3bb0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <0a5901c168a4$4bb34690$a2b999cf@beverlyvgh6gds>

Dear Richard,

It is up to State Corporation Law,  and it varies state by state........but
here in Washington,  you can have foreign stock holders in your private
company,  though there is usually a limit to how much of the company they
can own.  Of course,  I am not a lawyer,  so I would consult you to seek
professional legal counsel on this,  since I could be incorrect and the laws
do change, so its best to consult an attorney in the state where you plan to
invest.

Sincerely,
Bev

------------------------------------
Bev Corwin, President          Enso Company Ltd.
The Westin Building             2001 Sixth Avenue
Penthouse Suite 3403          Seattle WA 98121 USA
Telephone: 206.728.2232     Facsimile: 206.728.2262


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Bennett" <mail at richardinfo.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 1:04 PM
Subject: [thelist] LLC with international partners


> Hi,
> I am looking into setting up a LLC with two colleges based in Minnesota.
> The main problem is I am British, and live in Belgium.
>
> Naturally I asked my accountant to look into this, but I wondered if
anyone
> on the list had any experience with this?
>
> Can someone living overseas be a part-owner of a US  LLC?
>
> Any insight is appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
> Richard.
>
> Maybe a bit off-topic, let me think, tip, tip... ah yes,
>
> <tip type=HTML>
> Do you want to display some HTML source-code on your website?
> replace the left tags with &lt; and the HTML isn't rendered, just the
> source:
>
> &lt;div>hello &lt;/div>
>
> will show as:
>
> <div>hello </div>
>
> </tip>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>





From websavant at evo.net  Thu Nov  8 16:45:15 2001
From: websavant at evo.net (Kimberly Carroll)
Date: Thu Nov  8 16:45:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] LLC with international partners
In-Reply-To: <020001c16898$f64f3bb0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <B810653D.8DEA%websavant@evo.net>

Richard,
I am not a MN LLC, nor a legal expert, but I am a MN Corp.
When weighing the options, I did learn that LLC status is governed by the
state and can be quite different in each.

This link might help  - it's the LLC regulation set for MN:
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/322B/index.html

You can also access all of the MN state LLC forms here:
http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/llc.html

<not legal advice> 
If MN is not friendly to foreign ownership, you might try to find a state
that is friendly  then file foreign corporation status (outside of the home
state) with the state you want to do business in.
</not legal advice>

Best of luck to you!
Kimberly




From nicole at parrot.ca  Thu Nov  8 17:20:58 2001
From: nicole at parrot.ca (Nicole Parrot)
Date: Thu Nov  8 17:20:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] LLC with international partners
References: <020001c16898$f64f3bb0$0100a8c0@wwwv7zwbf035xj>
Message-ID: <003b01c168ac$51c3bad0$0429ca18@nparrot>

hi Richard

When I looked into LLC'ing, my attorney in the state of New York strongly
recommended an LLC, since I am Canadian, and one person on board is from
Holland.
Let me know if you want the coordinates of this attorney. Tell him I sent
you . (No I'm not getting any referral fee, but you will get friendly
service :)

Nicole
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Bennett" <mail at richardinfo.com>
> Hi,
> I am looking into setting up a LLC with two colleges based in Minnesota.
> The main problem is I am British, and live in Belgium.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 17:24:26 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 17:24:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <a05101009b810adba410e@[192.168.123.123]>
References: <200111082117.fA8LHkjE004101@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BEACDF2.29796.BBB903B4@localhost>

> From: Bob Davis <bobd at members.evolt.org>
> 
> >  > From: "Richard Bennett" <richard.bennett at skynet.be>
> >>
> >>  I just noticed the navigation is broken on this site:
> >
> >er, what's busted?  i just ran through it and it seems fine...
> 
> The mouseover buttons.  The OnMouseOver src's are not there.

thanks bob and richard...

i'm in l4m3rz mode tonight...




From paul at thereformist.com  Thu Nov  8 17:27:23 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Thu Nov  8 17:27:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Problem validating CSS
In-Reply-To: <200111081619.fA8GJtjE020240@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B810553D.1389%paul@thereformist.com>

Ah, silly me. I had thought it was something on my end, not the server's.

My online site controls have a MIME type change request, so I did that. Now
I play the waiting game.

Thanks, aard.

Paul

> From: "aardvark" <roselli at earthlink.net>
> 
> your server needs to treat .css files as text/css, not text/plain...
> 
> depending on your OS/server, just go in and change the MIME type
> from text/plain to text/css...





From hassan at webtuitive.com  Thu Nov  8 17:49:32 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Thu Nov  8 17:49:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] IA Tools
References: <OFE334FAAE.01486311-ON80256AFB.0082A451@ema.pwcinternal.com> <p05100300b80fb71fc85c@[192.168.1.1]> <3BEA8515.96B150F5@mantruc.com> <3BEAA9D7.1251F2EE@webtuitive.com> <3BEAAD56.55EDA9A7@mantruc.com>
Message-ID: <3BEB1A79.BB8E0DD6@webtuitive.com>

And as we discuss computer-based prototyping, here's an interesting
article by Carolyn Snyder on paper-based prototyping - subhead:

	Sure, it's low-tech, but this usability testing method can 
	help you sidestep problems before you write your code 

	/* via IBM Developer Works */

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-paper/?n-us-1181

FWIW!
-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 18:11:39 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov  8 18:11:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <200111081619.fA8GJrjE020230@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNICEBGDJAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>



> browser/OS?  they line up here in Mac/Win IE5+ and N6...

IE5/Win2K. They're out by about 3-5px.

BTW, I'd also throw the black nav bar on the frontdoor "behind" the "white
block". I think it's too heavy appearing as a "bar".


Screenshot showing misalignment and nav suggestion here:

http://anarchitect.net/isaac/screenshots/algonquin.gif


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 18:36:31 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Thu Nov  8 18:36:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <a0510030ab81087e2643d@[149.175.43.62]>
Message-ID: <20011109003825.21467.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

Erika:

OK, then I'll use the word 'workaround' instead of hack. I meant
the method was somewhat of a hack, since if all browsers were
compliant, we'd be using the CSS2 spec to handle the stylesheet.

/rg

--- Erika Meyer <emeyer at lclark.edu> wrote:
> >It's a hack that allows you to build two stylesheets (one
> @import
> >and one LINK REL)
> 
> or just one stylesheet, if you desire.
> 
> and @import is not a hack, it's part of the CSS2 spec.
> 
> E
> -- 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov  8 18:51:34 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov  8 18:51:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
Message-ID: <01c168b8$e7ab02e0$dc4c149a@rudy>

>OK, then I'll use the word 'workaround' instead of hack. I meant
>the method was somewhat of a hack, since if all browsers were
>compliant, we'd be using the CSS2 spec to handle the stylesheet.


@import itself might be fine and upstanding, but using it to hide otherwise
valid style declarations from netscape which would puke on them -- that
*is* a hack

rudy




From schaz_stevens at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  8 19:03:39 2001
From: schaz_stevens at hotmail.com (Schaz Stevens)
Date: Thu Nov  8 19:03:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE on the mac doing strange things
Message-ID: <F232jAKYVpMmOlbcrYP0000058b@hotmail.com>

Greetings evolters

I've got a bit of a display problem when viewing a page on IE for the Mac 
(ie 5.5 I think).

I'm using tables to keep the navigation and text separate and I've set a 
background image for the row where I've got the text. Herein lies the 
problem - shows up perfectly on NN6.2 but IE isn't showing the background 
image (yes there is text there).

I've found a work-around if I put the background image on the <td> tag as 
well it displays on IE

Snip of code here:
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="center" 
width="600">
        <tr>
          <td align="center">
            <img src="images/logo-top.gif" width="206" height="38">
          </td>
        </tr>
        <tr background="images/table-bg.jpg">

Any idea how to get this to work without having to put the image on the <td> 
tag as well?


Thanks in advance
Schaz

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  8 19:17:59 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov  8 19:17:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (or whatever you wanna do, really)
In-Reply-To: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNICEBGDJAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
References: <200111081619.fA8GJrjE020230@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BEAE88F.27514.BC20F81C@localhost>

> From: "isaac" <isaac at members.evolt.org>
> 
> > browser/OS?  they line up here in Mac/Win IE5+ and N6...
> 
> IE5/Win2K. They're out by about 3-5px.

damn...they align here... oh well, i'll just pad it, thanks...

> BTW, I'd also throw the black nav bar on the frontdoor "behind" the
> "white block". I think it's too heavy appearing as a "bar".
> 
> Screenshot showing misalignment and nav suggestion here:
> 
> http://anarchitect.net/isaac/screenshots/algonquin.gif

i see, almost like the square is a window *through* the grays... 
interesting...

thanks for the idea...




From framar at interlog.com  Thu Nov  8 20:40:39 2001
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Thu Nov  8 20:40:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] CF: Thanks for the technique
Message-ID: <p05001900b810efab11f2@[24.43.66.191]>

A couple of months ago, Josh suggested that instead of using

    <cfif IsDefined("Form.Submit")>
       ... do stuff
    </cfif>

That I first define the parameter then search for it's value as such:

    <cfparam name="Form.Submit" default="">

    <cfif FindNoCase("Upload", Form.Submit, 1)>
       ... do stuff
    </cfif>

While modifying a image uploading tag, and making a duplicate for 
similar functions (non-image files, different treatment), I've 
discovered what a blessing it was. I've now got two very similar 
files that can easily and quickly make a clear distinction as to 
which is being addressed.

Thanks Josh!
-- 

Our best destiny, as planetary cohabitants, is the development
of what has been called "species consciousness" - something over
and above nationalisms, blocs, religions, ethnicities.


Frank Marion                      Framar Studios
frank at framarstudios.com           http://www.framarstudios.com



From ericmiller at mediaone.net  Thu Nov  8 20:57:18 2001
From: ericmiller at mediaone.net (Eric Miller)
Date: Thu Nov  8 20:57:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIMEPGDIAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKIEDNCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>

>  - I'd use a feature box within the frontdoor instead of the pop-up window
> for refresher courses. I expected the pop-up box to be an ad and would've
> closed it instinctively if I wasn't providing a critique.
Good idea. I do the same thing when I get a pop-up.

>  - Banner ad is pretty dark and unimaginative. Constant animation is
*very*
> irritating and distracting. (Content is infuriating, but hey, that's just
> me. :p)
I agree. I think I'll toss it.

>  - Address is too cramped and close to the shield. Give it some space.
Good point.

>  - I expected the thermometer icon to link to some kind of daily
temperature
> feature. It didn't. I'd try something else in that position.
Um, any suggestions for something else? Otherwise, I'll probably drop it.

>  - The colour scheme correctly draws from the logo, but is very
> business-like. You can balance this with fun and full colour photographs.
> Also, the images within the site are of varying styles and quality. You
have
> one dark photograph, a coloured sketch, and what looks like a freebie
> temperature icon. Try to pick 2 of the 3 styles to use (dumping the icon
> would be my choice).
Yep, it is. I'm a product of my business environment. I write database and
business layer components for a web development company. Most of the sites
are "corporate" in nature. I agree that it should be "fun" but, being a
systems analyst, I'm graphically challenged. Some photographs of people
having fun is a good idea.

>  - The frontdoor picture of the church is empty and bland. Personally, I
> would rather not see any church thrive, but you'll have to find a
different
> picture of you want to sell the services of it.
Right again. It's not a very good image. A few years ago I would have agreed
with you're opinion about church's thriving, but I'll leave it at that.

>  - No pictures elsewhere within the site. Quite boring.
>  - Severe lack of community feeling. No pictures of any members anywhere.
Well, you've convinced me it's time for a total redesign.

Thanks for taking the time.

Eric Miller




From ericmiller at mediaone.net  Thu Nov  8 21:06:50 2001
From: ericmiller at mediaone.net (Eric Miller)
Date: Thu Nov  8 21:06:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <B80F603E.8D03%websavant@evo.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKCEDOCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>

> Overall, the site is clean and well organized.
Thanks.

> 1. See if you can clean up the pop up window so it doesn't scroll. Better
> yet, remove the pop up. You have room on the home page to include it
there.
> Most users are already trained to close pop ups (ads).
I agree. I tend to close pop-ups and should have recognized that.

> 2. Do a little touch up on the table structure. You've used fixed width
> table size of 595 - which is ok - but on my big screen it makes the site
> look tiny. Also, when I tested the pages with larger font sizes (for those
> with visual impairments) the fixed table width makes it nearly unreadable.
The 595 was an attempt to keep it within a 640x480 monitor size. Oops,
didn't think about the font size thing. Definite usability blunder on my
part.

> 3. Set your page margins to "0" so your table is flush left on the page.
> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0"
> marginheight="0">


> 4. This is minor - but when I have email links I like to use me at abc.com
> formats rather than cryptic labels. Users then know that it is an email
link
> rather than a page.
In other words someone using the internet will understand that it is an
email address and I don't have to hide it.

> 5. Re-visit your meta tags. The description tag is only 29% utilized - you
> can add more information and help your long term search engine placement.
> The keywords tag is only 15% utilized and the relevance of keyword to page
> content is really low. (not design related, but ultimately user-experience
> related)
I don't understand how the 29% utilized figure is determined? I forgot that
the search engines check page content against the keywords. Thanks again.

> 6. Remove the site admin link from the main navigation. It's not for the
> public so it probably shouldn't be there.
This should have be moved to the event page and called "edit events" anyway.
It's used to add events.

> 7. Finally, I would move the banner to the bottom of the page, or consider
> moving it to the inside pages. It's a little unwieldy up there.
I've decided to drop it. I've never been really happy with it.

> Hope this helps.
Yes, thanks for taking the time.

Eric Miller




From ericmiller at mediaone.net  Thu Nov  8 21:12:37 2001
From: ericmiller at mediaone.net (Eric Miller)
Date: Thu Nov  8 21:12:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <000101c1681f$65f1b9e0$64c963d8@75ctt01>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKIEDOCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>

> Why not center the damn page? It's got a total linear structure so it's
> not going to get lost out there and the flush left with all that space
> on the right makes it look all squished up as though pummelled with a
> sledghammer.
I could do that but now I think I can go wider. I was trying to stay within
640x480 but think I can take it up a notch.

> The banner at the top? I think others have said it -- too dark. I don't
> know if you need the black bar. The blue line will probably separate the
> banner from the content sufficiently. Or you could do page header (the
> name and address) and then banner ad and then the rest of the page.
> Seems to be a pretty common usage that doesn't tend to look too
> horrifying.
I'm going to remove it. I never really liked it that much. I'm considering a
"message of the day" area somewhat like the mission statement. Better?

> The color scheme is nice and I'll echo Isaac's comments to get more
> people pictures if you can. You might pull in another color by making
> those <hr>s into pixel lines or colored <hr>s (you can do that, right?)
> Maybe use that red?
Good idea.

> Your copyright ought to change to 2001. Hey! Are you foisting an old
> design on us? Bring back some fresh design! And, get rid of these
> snails! You would think that in a fancy restaurant at these prices you
> could keep the snails off the food!
Sorry, the site is a year old and I've not had time to work on it much. I
still needed the review since I would have just done more of the same.

Thanks for taking the time. The feedback has been a great eye opener!

Eric Miller





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov  8 21:12:59 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov  8 21:12:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] Request for site check
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPKBGKLMKLAJKOJKIEDNCGAA.ericmiller@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIAEBODJAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> >  - I expected the thermometer icon to link to some kind of daily
> temperature
> > feature. It didn't. I'd try something else in that position.
> Um, any suggestions for something else? Otherwise, I'll probably drop it.

Something featuring an autumn-style leaf or something. Block picture fading
to the left perhaps?

> Well, you've convinced me it's time for a total redesign.

You could use what you have as a base, but I'd start with tracking down some
visual assets. Getting the community to buy a digital camera and start
taking happy snaps for you to use might be a good idea.

I'm just saying that if the core of your brief is: (a) satisfy existing
members, (b) recruit new members, then I don't think this design meets the
latter at all.

Start with finding those new pics and I think you'll have more luck. :)


Good luck,

isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Thu Nov  8 21:50:16 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Thu Nov  8 21:50:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] Bustin' back in da scene
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2A6@arnold.bedrock.com>

Well,

After being starved from the severing of the T-1 to the workplace by our
ISP, who, like the smelly schmelt of Lake Michigan bobbing on the sides of
the piers of Milwuakee's East Side in the cold and rainy Wisconsin spring,
appeared bankrupt on the surface of the rising tides from melting enthusiasm
in our world of technology, I finally can email and browse again.

Feeling removed from the community and regarding the backlog of 1000 emails
to be read as inevitably lost in the swift and don't-look-back current of
internet life, may I humbly contribute tips to the betterment of evolt!
(But, whoa! that tip jar is now looking a little empty... but please enjoy!
8)

<rory disposition="good to be back!" alt="8)"/>



<tip type="ColdFusion Uber-Dynamic Querying" author="rory">
Have a page which needs to determine which query to run based on a choice
from the user, but has the same output needs regardless of the query run?

Try this:

<cfparam name="sUserChoice" default="">

<cfif isDefined("Form.selUserChoice")>
	<cfset sUserChoice=Form.selUserChoice>
</cfif>

<cfswitch expression="#sUserChoice#">
	<cfcase value="choice1">
		<cfquery datasource="myData" name="qryMyStuff">
			SELECT	stuff1_id
			,		stuff1_desc
			FROM		tblStuff1
		</cfquery>
		<cfset id="stuff1_id">
		<cfset desc="stuff1_desc">
	</cfcase>
	
	<cfcase value="choice2">
		<cfquery datasource="myData" name="qryMyStuff">
			SELECT	stuff2_id
			,		stuff2_desc
			FROM		tblStuff2
		</cfquery>
		<cfset id="stuff2_id">
		<cfset desc="stuff2_desc">
	</cfcase>	
	
	<cfcase value="choice3">
		<cfquery datasource="myData" name="qryMyStuff">
			SELECT	stuff3_id
			,		stuff3_desc
			FROM		tblStuff3
		</cfquery>
		<cfset id="stuff3_id">
		<cfset desc="stuff3_desc">
	</cfcase>
</cfswitch>

...

<cfoutput query="qryMyStuff">
	#Evaluate(id)#: #Evaluate(desc)#
</cfoutput>

</tip>



<tip type="ColdFusion SQL statement techniques." author="rory">
Conjure up your SQL in chunks, putting dashes of table columns here,
sprinkling modicums of WHERE conditions there? 

In CF, the server niftily and transparently doubles all of your single
quotes when executing a CFQUERY.

But, when you pass it a constructed SQL statement you have stuffed in a
variable, like this: 

<cfquery datasource="myData" name="myQuery">
	#theSQL#
</cfquery>

all of the single quotes you have put around the strings in your WHERE
clause are now double quoted. Let's guess... your DBMS gags.

Enter: PreserveSingleQuotes().

It prevents CF from auto-doubling your single-quoting.

But, now you have to do it.
</tip>



<tip type="ColdFusion output techniques" author="rory">
I had a co-worker who wondered why a simple page was taking minutes to
download /from the intranet/.

After looking at the source, it seemed that the page was over a megabyte in
size. Whoa. 

Most of it was whitespace. Whoooa. Not good.

CF turns out to output everything that is in a template (page).
Additionally, sometimes, CF'ers have templates with no HTML content in them;
only logic to perform some intellegence critical to the application,
possibly ending in a redirect or a prompt to close the window. CF outputs
the whitespace in these intermediate pages, too. This is all more painful
when there are CFLOOPs involved, as you can imagine.

This following little tag does a couple of tricks, one of which is to stop
CF from outputing all but that which is in the CFOUTPUT tags.

<cfsetting enablecfoutputonly="Yes">

But remember to set this at the bottom of your page:

<cfsetting enablecfoutputonly="No">

or maybe that next page, where you have HTML content not in CFOUTPUT tags...
will mysteriously never be sent to the browser!

I used this technique when I used this tip:
http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20001023/153512.html
</tip>



From cvos at netpaths.net  Thu Nov  8 22:02:49 2001
From: cvos at netpaths.net (Cayley Vos)
Date: Thu Nov  8 22:02:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - ug
Message-ID: <3BEB5415.508E4D46@netpaths.net>

I am redesigning a site so that it will appear in search engines.  In
this case, as is too prevalent, the client had the website designed with
no regard to how search engines work, and the old site is all text.  I
created a new page

http://www.mayfayrehouse.com/template.html

which looked fine to me in Mac but IE/win shows the text as 2 small
columns that dont auto fill the cells.
also, the horizontal bars dont fill the lines between the top and bottom
row of buttons on Netscape.

any comments are appreciated.

old site
http://www.mayfayrehouse.com/
--




Cayley Vos, Principal

360.714.8395 office
360.223.7799 cell

http://NetPaths.net
____________________________________________
web site design  |  programming  |  search engine marketing





From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov  8 22:40:16 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov  8 22:40:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - ug
Message-ID: <01c168d8$d8371e00$3651149a@rudy>

> the client had the website designed with no regard to how
> search engines work, and the old site is all text.

hi cayley

actually, all text is a fairly good search engine strategy!!

it sure beats images or flash

i think what you mean to say is that the old site has a lot of text as
images


> http://www.mayfayrehouse.com/template.html
>
> which looked fine to me in Mac but IE/win shows the text as 2 small
> columns that dont auto fill the cells.

yes, there is room for some improvement in those tables

your main problem is that you use <Th width="559"> to hold the inner nested
table -- just take the width off that for some immediate relief

i think you could also increase the outer table from 88% to maybe 95%

you may want to change the alignment of the text (in the old site it is
centred) because aligned left, the text in the right column looks funny

one more thing, and it's important -- don't use bgcolor=black in the body
tag and then specify color:white for the main body text using style sheets,
because if style sheets are turned off, the text disappears (black on
black)


>also, the horizontal bars dont fill the lines between the top and bottom
>row of buttons on Netscape.

what horizontal bars?  i can barely see them, they're so dark, i can hardly
make out that they're supposed to be tabs, so don't even worry about it
;o)

actually, this is a problem in win ie5 too

you could try removing the first of the two rows, make the row height=20,
use a background colour, and use valign=bottom/top for the tab images

>old site
>http://www.mayfayrehouse.com/

yuck!!   it's cut off at the right without a horizontal scrollbar, and i'm
at 800x600

previous designer should be shot

(that's just a figure of speech, folks)


rudy






From web at master.gen.in.us  Thu Nov  8 22:59:30 2001
From: web at master.gen.in.us (deke )
Date: Thu Nov  8 22:59:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browsers Stastics: Netscape 8?
In-Reply-To: <000901c16860$ce207fb0$1065a8c0@emakina012>
Message-ID: <3BEB1D5B.4304.CD16D8@localhost>

On 8 Nov 2001, at 15:22, billybad posted a message which said:

> i'm having a look to a webserver statistics.
> and i have 2 strange hits done by Netscape 8....
 
> Can anyone tell me what's that browser?
> Is it released? Is it a spider?
 
> Is it possible to have more info on that browser?

If you get any hits from Mozilla/10.3, it's probably one of
several utilities I wrote for a website I run. There's a view 
source utility, a URL extractor, and a PDF2HTML translator. 
They are particularly valuable to MSNTV (WebTV) users.

I suspect that Netscape/8 is something similar.

deke





*Any great truth can -- and eventually will -- be expressed as a cliche
-- a cliche is a sure and certain way to dilute an idea. For instance,
my grandmother used to say, "The black cat is always the last one off
the fence." I have no idea what she meant, but at one time, it was
undoubtedly true. --
                       Solomon Short



From thelook at indigo.ie  Thu Nov  8 23:00:25 2001
From: thelook at indigo.ie (Jim MacCormaic)
Date: Thu Nov  8 23:00:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - ug
In-Reply-To: <3BEB5415.508E4D46@netpaths.net>
Message-ID: <EB7ABD12-D4CE-11D5-A474-000A27D9673E@indigo.ie>

On Friday, November 9, 2001, at 03:57  am, Cayley Vos wrote:

> I created a new page
> which looked fine to me in Mac but IE/win shows the text as 2 small
> columns that dont auto fill the cells.
> also, the horizontal bars dont fill the lines between the top and bottom
> row of buttons on Netscape.

I know you said it looked fine on Mac, but I checked it out anyway, 
using OmniWeb and Internet Explorer 5.1.3 on OS X. The text blocks fill 
the cells in both browsers, and the horizontal bars are fine.

However, I'm afraid that I prefer the sheer look of the original. The 
original images look much better than your new live text linked to a 
style sheet. Your serif font does not read well against the black 
background, it is too small to be comfortably legible, and having it 
ranged left and aligned top is a dis-improvement on centered ranging and 
alignment.

Did you intend to drop the 5-star rating? Are the plain background and 
plain border in the central area temporary? Again I think the original 
looks better.

I notice that you have made some changes to the copy, having spotted 
some errors in the original. However, (in the left-hand block) 
'accommodation' has 2 'm's, and I would finish the first sentence after 
'central London' and continue 'Located in the exclusive Mayfair 
district, the apartments . . .' In the other text block I certainly 
prefer your revised wording, but 'laundary' is obviously a typo for 
'laundry', and I would personally hyphenate '24-hour'.

Jim MacCormaic
Dublin, Ireland




From tiedefenderdelta6 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 00:32:51 2001
From: tiedefenderdelta6 at yahoo.com (Lachlan Cannon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 00:32:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <20011108082814.889C098E@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <20011109063447.99202.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com>

>I strongly recommend against this. Using a web page as a 
>background
>destabilizes Win98 to an extreme. 

For what it's worth, my Win98 is so unstable that it really
doesn't matter. It no longer turn the power off, but
restarts instead when I shut it down, and if I turn the
monitor off and leave it off for a while (30 minutes or so)
when I turn it back on it works for a few seconds then goes
blank with a line of different coloured pixels along the
top.

Anyway, if no one knows how to get the apps to just run, I
guess I'll go back to using shortcut keys. The only problem
being, I'm starting to run out of letters, lol.

<tip type="degradability" author="Lachlan Cannon">
While it's all well and good employing cutting edge
technology in your site, making sure everyone with access
to the net can access the content is important. Download a
copy of lynx and check whether you can still read the
content and navigate, if you can then there is a good
chance it will degrade well to all devices.
</tip>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 00:55:25 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 00:55:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (long)
In-Reply-To: <20011108164400.6528E961@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109113923.029c7dc8@203.197.12.4>

At 10:14 PM 11/8/2001, you wrote:
> > 2) Hmmm... "Enterprise solutions experts", eh? Wonder if they can
> > integrate my COBOL-based inventory management system running on OS/400
> > and DB2 with my new Win2000 and SQL-Server based setup.
>
>yes... in fact, we've done stuff very similar... most recently was
>getting a terradata database to chat real-time with a SQL database
>over a VPN to feed into a CMS based on SQL and XML... actually,

Ah, so you see, now you've got expertise that you're not selling. Write it 
up as a detailed case study and put it up there. If you don't tell 'em, 
they won't know :)

>er, it does... down to 640x480, in fact... browser/OS?  the specific
>page you're seeing?  what's cut off?

IE6/Win2K. I realized that it might be my "Links" toolbar and my GoogleBar 
that might be taking up the extra screen space. With those on, the text 
from "inclusion in the Interactive 2000 edition" is cut off.

So I disabled them. With that, your contact info isn't seen.

Screenshot (with toolbars): http://expressa.com/images/misc/algon-1.gif 
(reduced to 16 colour for faster download)
Screenshot (no toolbars): http://expressa.com/images/misc/algon-2.gif


>wanted to show the sites in various browsers, to show we're not
>just IE/win-centric... lots of caps in NN as well as on MacOS, too...

Oops. I think it's so subtle that I missed it completely.


>doesn't come off as a featured service?

Um, not with the way it's positioned right now. More like, "we needed an 
even number of items for symmetry and we don't, so let's stick this in the 
middle of both columns."

If you want to "feature" it, make sure that it also *looks* "featured". 
Make it stand out from the others - put it in a highlighted box, put a 
slightly bigger graphic, whatever it takes to make it stand out. I mean, 
what *is* this picture: 
http://algonquinstudios.com/files/as_images/screencaps/thumbs/pill_cob.gif 
? Somebody's neck? (?!?)


>good point... what i tried to do is *show* what we do, instead of
>telling... too informal?  think people won't look or read it all?

It's merely a question of what people *expect*. The label tells me 
something else - that I can read about your expertise in the 
implementation. Also see previous post's comments about "order of information".


> > more. How about converting them into GIFs with the same typeface used
> > in your logo?
>
>....anti......gif.......text......ugh......

So am I, mostly. Why not make it bigger as in "Flynn and Friends" text on 
this page: http://algonquinstudios.com/article_214.html



> > 3) Section headings text not hyperlinked???
>
>huh?

The words "implementation", "design", "E-commerce", etc. are not 
hyperlinked. Only the graphics are.


>let's call it, "unable to decide-itus"... overall, in testing it, people
>didn't go to 'press' or 'technical articles'... but they went to
>'articles'... dunno why... so i just built it out that way...

:)

Ever seen those "You have one message waiting for you" pop-up ads? I'm not 
saying you're doing that, but you're trying to "trick" people into reading 
your releases by putting them into articles. Well, I guess it's relatively 
harmless, but if you're expecting the press to find it, remember that 
they'll probably look around for them in the non-existent "about us" 
section. Always make it easy for journos to find stuff. Good PR is more 
valuable than *any* advertising you can do.


> > 2) Hey, which of these are web applications and which are design-heavy
> > projects?
>
>heh... case studies explain *some*, others are linked to sites, the
>rest are primarily enterprise apps... but yeah, i shouldn't have to
>explain like this...

Categorise them by both industry and type if you must. Make one of them 
hyperlinked to a separate page if required.

That would be good information architecture - supporting alternative views 
of the same information.


>don't think it would too much like another off-site icon?  the
>magnifying glass has worked well for us in the past, and it implies
>'more detail' to me...

Well, you have ALT text, so I guess you could leave that.

But...


> > destination. For clients for whom you have case studies, the hyperlink
> > goes to the case study, while in other cases, it goes directly to the
> > site in question. Not good.
>
>that's what the icons are for... two kinds of links, two kinds of
>icons... unless i messed up, there should be two kinds of links,
>with each kind branded...

Established UI convention makes me think that icons are *separate* from the 
hyperlinks. When I see the site name, I think that it goes to site and that 
the "case study" icon goes to a case study of the site.

Consistency is a very important part of good interfaces. If elements work 
one way half the time and another way the other half, it ain't usable.

I'd suggest hyperlinking all text to the actual site and hyperlinking only 
the icons to the case studies.

Also, make the icons bigger. You know about Fitt's law, right? [1]


>so, no resume coming?

Well, I did look at the careers section, but since my "persona" for this 
review wasn't a job seeker, I didn't critique it.

And I live in India, my friend. That's 24 hours by flight from where you 
live. A long, long, way...

Besides, you've already filled that application developer position ;)


>and don't apologize, this is what i'm looking for...

Not everyone can take it like you. I've seen few people on this list and 
others complaining about reviews ripping their site to pieces. I like the 
way Isaac asks whether a person wants a fluff review or a harsh one, though 
that usually means that the review *will* be harsh. LOL


[1] Fitts's law: If you ignore the theoretical equation part, it 
essentially means that the time taken to point to something depends upon 
the size and distance of the target.

Theoretical explanation: 
http://www.usabilityfirst.com/glossary/main.cgi?function=display_term&term_id=265
Practical advice: http://www.asktog.com/basics/firstPrinciples.html (search 
for "Fitts's law")
and here: http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html


Madhu


<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From sfmalo at msn.com  Fri Nov  9 02:46:15 2001
From: sfmalo at msn.com (sfmalo)
Date: Fri Nov  9 02:46:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] W3C Validator no longer "validating" page
Message-ID: <009d01c168fa$abb89d00$53241b3f@oemcomputer>

Could someone explain what's going on with the W3C Validator? I just checked a page on a client's site that has validated as 4.01 Transitional for quite awhile (that's what the DTD is in the header) ... and saw this tonight. My character encoding has also been set to charset=iso-8859-1.   ???????

Warning: DOCTYPE Override in effect! Any DOCTYPE Declaration in the document has been supressed and the DOCTYPE for ?HTML 4.01
     Transitional? inserted instead. The document will not be Valid until you alter the source file to reflect this new DOCTYPE. 

Please note that you have chosen one or more options that alter the content of the document before validation, or have not provided enough information to accurately validate the document. Even if no errors
   are reported below, the document will not be valid until you manually make the changes we have performed
   automatically. Specifically, if you used some of the options that override a property of the document (e.g.
   the DOCTYPE or Character Encoding), you must make the same change to the source document or the
   server setup before it can be valid. You will also need to insert an appropriate DOCTYPE Declaration or
   Character Encoding (the "charset" parameter for the Content-Type HTTP header) if any of those are
   missing. 

Any ideas?

Sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com




From sfmalo at msn.com  Fri Nov  9 03:16:15 2001
From: sfmalo at msn.com (sfmalo)
Date: Fri Nov  9 03:16:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] W3C Validator no longer "validating" page - UPDATE
Message-ID: <00a701c168fe$d70cb280$53241b3f@oemcomputer>

Well, I shot off my "help" message a wee bit too soon. I don't know if it was 'cause I was browsing using NN4.7 ... or the strange looking snippet of code I found on the page I was checking out. But, instead of reaching the W3C validator via the graphic I placed on the Client's page (which generated that confusing message), I then brought up the page directly from the W3C validator itself via the browser. And, this time, all was as ever; it validated with no bizarre message this time. So, I copied the code snippet from that page and replaced the snippet on the Client's site. When looking closely at the "old" code, it was full of percentage signs and stuff. Must have gotten garbled somehow, perhaps because of recently changing from FP98 extensions to 2000? Don't know!

Sorry for the bandwidth! (<8

sharon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharon F. Malone
"web design and Internet writing services"
http://www.24caratdesign.com
sfmalo at 24caratdesign.com




From les.lytollis at morse.com  Fri Nov  9 06:02:41 2001
From: les.lytollis at morse.com (Les Lytollis)
Date: Fri Nov  9 06:02:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] javascript history.back problem
Message-ID: <29C84CF25D03D5119FCF009027B67B5A52972D@EXCHANGE1>

Hi Again All,

I have a really annoying problem regarding a "back" button in my forms.

I have a multi page form with back and continue buttons. The "back" button
uses javascript history.back  (also tried history.go(-1)). Page 3 of the
form (yeah, I know, about 70 fields - but that's what the client wants!)
goes back to 2 (duh!) and the form is populated. But going back from page 2
to page 1 clears page 1 of the form. 

It only happens on ie5, not 5.5 or 6.
Does anyone know what could be causing this? I can't find any reference to
this problem anywhere.

Cheers
Lez






From kim at bonfils.com  Fri Nov  9 06:11:50 2001
From: kim at bonfils.com (Kim Bonfils)
Date: Fri Nov  9 06:11:50 2001
Subject: [thelist] table background/Netscape/css woes
In-Reply-To: <20011107180405.C0AC79D8@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011109125050.0304ceb0@mail.andersenit.com>


Hi

Thanks to the people in this group, I've finally learned how to make a 
table background work in Netscape (the old nested table ploy).
But my current project involves the Oracle Portal 3.0 portlet technology, 
and that causes some additional problems. This is what I've learned so far:

Oracle generates a bunch of tags that the developer has no control over - 
specifically it adds some styles (including background color) that you 
can't turn off. In effect, a page and a portlet has to have an 
Oracle-generated stylesheet and hence a background color. I can add my own 
stylesheets if I want, but Oracle insists on generating a couple of tags 
using its own styles.

My problem is that I want to use a gif pattern for a background for the 
content area, but I'm stuck inside the following tags that I can't change:

<table class="ORACLE_DEFINED_STYLE">
         <tr>
                 <td class="ORACLE_DEFINED_STYLE">

<!-- My content goes here -->

                 </td>
         </tr>
</table>

Now, inside this structure I can define a background gif for a nested 
table. That works in Explorer. And I can do the double nested table trick 
to make Netscape happy. Except: If I set background="" for the inner table, 
Netscape defaults to the Oracle defined style (so the background becomes 
the color I don't want!). But if I delete the background="" tag, Netscape 
repeats the gif in every cell (exactly the problem the double nested table 
trick is supposed to work around).

Any ideas?
Yes, I've tried defining the correct background as a style, but that 
doesn't seem to help.

Thanks in advance,

Kim Bonfils
http://kim.bonfils.com




From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Fri Nov  9 06:29:21 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Fri Nov  9 06:29:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS
In-Reply-To: <200111081958.fA8JwbjE032529@leo.evolt.org>
References: <200111081846.fA8Ikp026893@mail.swissonline.ch>
Message-ID: <200111091231.fA9CVEe20315@mail.swissonline.ch>

On 8 Nov 01, at 15:00, aardvark wrote:
> erm, just saw my name... was i in this thread?

erm, no. that was my fault. i think i mixed this thread up with a 
different one where you mentioned @import. ;) might have been your 
site check thread. or maybe i was just daydreaming. nevermind.

<tip>
ever wondered how to capture the position of the mouse on the screen 
(resp. in the browser window) with javascript? this script works for 
me in all major browsers:

<script type="text/javascript">
<!--
if (window.Event) document.captureEvents(Event.MOUSEMOVE);
document.onmousemove = getMousePosition;
var mouseX, mouseY;
function getMousePosition(evt) {
 if (document.all) {
  mouseX = event.clientX + (document.body.scrollLeft ? 
document.body.scrollLeft : 0);
  mouseY = event.clientY + (document.body.scrollTop ? 
document.body.scrollTop : 0);
 }
 else {
  mouseX = evt.pageX;
  mouseY = evt.pageY;
 }
 return false;
}
// -->
</script>

after this bit of code has run you can access the mouse position with 
the variables mouseX and mouseY. this for example would show the 
mouse position when you click on the link:

<a href="#" onClick="alert('mouse position: 
'+mouseX+'/'+mouseY)">Click here</a>
</tip>




From ronwhite at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 07:28:09 2001
From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White)
Date: Fri Nov  9 07:28:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <20011109063447.99202.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJACNCFDNLLAFJNJBIEDEDAAA.ronwhite@members.evolt.org>

Have you applied all of the patches for 98? My system is fairly stable
unless I beat it on really hard for a week or so without a reboot and then
it only gets a BSOD when I try to Shut it down or Restart. It doesn't crash
on its own... But then I do have 384 Meg of RAM which always helps...

Thanks,
Ron White

<>
For what it's worth, my Win98 is so unstable that it really
doesn't matter.
<>




From paul.backhouse at 2cs.com  Fri Nov  9 07:40:55 2001
From: paul.backhouse at 2cs.com (Paul Backhouse)
Date: Fri Nov  9 07:40:55 2001
Subject: [thelist] TIP: Styling dropdown menus in NS 4.7
In-Reply-To: <MABBJACNCFDNLLAFJNJBIEDEDAAA.ronwhite@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEDOCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>

Some of you probably know this already, but in NS 4.x you maybe getting
frustrated with not being able to properly style font face and size in
dropdown menus and also the height and widths of them - so heres little
helper for you.


for NS you can place a span round it and this will change the font face and
style for you - for fun, try putting the font-size to 100px - i find it
quite amusing - use your detections scripts for browsers to dtermine whether
to display the "span" or not - a fav script of mine is ASP detection, quick
eay and can be used in config file at the top of your pages.

<tip type="NS Dropdown Menu Styling">
<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:10px;">
<select>
<option>test</option>
<option>test1</option>
</select>
</span>

</tip>




From chrism at puffofsmoke.net  Fri Nov  9 07:41:46 2001
From: chrism at puffofsmoke.net (The Optimizer)
Date: Fri Nov  9 07:41:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] Disabling key press in IE
In-Reply-To: <MABBJACNCFDNLLAFJNJBIEDEDAAA.ronwhite@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBGEHMCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>

Dear all

Is it possible to [effectively] disable the functionality of specific
keyboard keys in IE5.5+ using javascript (eg ALT)? If so, could someone poke
me in the right direction?

TIA

Chris Marsh




From michael at tdh-marketing.com  Fri Nov  9 07:55:00 2001
From: michael at tdh-marketing.com (Michael Goddard)
Date: Fri Nov  9 07:55:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] CIW training...
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108192033.03055090@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <004901c1692c$fd4639c0$4b01a8c0@michael>

How much are they charging now for certification?  If it is over $1000 then
I say no.  With today's economy and the current downward spiral of the
Internet business, I am sure many companies are looking for "experienced"
rather than "certified".  Also, many employers do not even know what CIW
means or is.  So what should you do?

Did the certification help me? No, I was able to land this job from my
experience.

If it was me, I would instead look into Brainbench.com  Their certifications
have been making a lot heads turn and many employers know about it.  Plus it
won't make a big dent in your wallet!

HTH and good luck in your endeavors.

Michael Goddard
CIW(Certified Internet Webmaster) Associate
Internet Developer/Programmer
TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
8153 Garnet Drive
Dayton, OH. 45458
Phone: 937-438-3434
Fax: 937-438-3453
E-Mail: Michael at TDH-Marketing.com
Web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike King" <mike.king at redroom.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: [thelist] CIW training...


> Hello everyone,
>
> Is anyone here CIW Certified?
> Is it worth the cash, fame and fortune that will inevitably arise from
> getting it  ;)
>
> Cheers
> mk
>
> --
> http://www.redroom.co.uk
> t. 07971 292 999
> e. mike.king at redroom.co.uk
>
>




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov  9 08:44:51 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov  9 08:44:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] ASP Resource <tip>
Message-ID: <01f701c1692d$9c808e00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

<tip type="ASP Resource" author="Mishka">
Stumbled across this reference .. and thought I'd share it.  Can be viewed
on line or downloaded as a PDF file.

A Practical Guide to Active Server Pages
http://www.manastungare.com/asp/default.asp
</tip>


Will add to d.e.o. too :)

Mich





From adam at hallinteractive.com  Fri Nov  9 08:52:58 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Fri Nov  9 08:52:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help
In-Reply-To: <20011108135756.15933.qmail@web14309.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B811586E.511F%adam@hallinteractive.com>

yo listers!

SO. I'm curious. I'm looking at this delicious website (
http://www.peterfunch.com ) and I love the way the popup windows come on the
screen so I check the source and it's clearly WYSISYG generated script (the
function that makes the popup slide). My question is, is there a way to get
this script (remember I'm a coding n00bie) in a compliant
(javascript/ECMAscript) format so I can use it?
And if so...where and who would I have to rub to get it? I'm still not adept
enough to write it myself, especially not from the mess I see there.

Any tips, ideas, offerings?

love, spazz.




From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Fri Nov  9 09:04:49 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Fri Nov  9 09:04:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] TIP: Styling dropdown menus in NS 4.7
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKCEJCCAGFCCPLJNHCEDOCIAA.paul.backhouse@2cs.com>
References: <MABBJACNCFDNLLAFJNJBIEDEDAAA.ronwhite@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111091506.fA9F6Xe18621@mail.swissonline.ch>

> use your detections scripts for browsers to dtermine whether
> to display the "span" or not - a fav script of mine is ASP detection, quick
> eay and can be used in config file at the top of your pages.
> 
> <span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:10px;">
> <select>
> <option>test</option>
> <option>test1</option>
> </select>
> </span>

an addendum to this tip: you don't even need to do browser detect 
wheter to apply the span or not. usually i do this to style a select 
menu:

<span class="myselect">
<select class="myselect">
<option>whatever</option>
</select>
</span>

nn 4.x will style according to the span around the select menu, all 
other browser will style according to the class specified for the 
select element. like this you can define one class (myselect) for all 
css-capable browsers. of course nn 4.x won't listen to extra gimmicks 
like background colors but it will at least pick up font face and 
size of the class.

n.



From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  9 09:06:36 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov  9 09:06:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109113923.029c7dc8@203.197.12.4>
References: <20011108164400.6528E961@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111091506.fA9F6ZjE032629@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Madhu Menon <webguru at vsnl.net>
> 
> Ah, so you see, now you've got expertise that you're not selling.
> Write it up as a detailed case study and put it up there. If you don't
> tell 'em, they won't know :)

yeah yeah yeah... now i gotta talk to my marketing guy...

[...]
> IE6/Win2K. I realized that it might be my "Links" toolbar and my
> GoogleBar that might be taking up the extra screen space. With those
> on, the text from "inclusion in the Interactive 2000 edition" is cut
> off.
[...]

ooooh... i get it, you meant it didn't fit *horizontally*... ok, that i 
don't care so much about... i structed the page so that the most 
important info is at the top, with even the most restrictive 
resolutions and browser settings still showing the logo and, ideally, 
the nav...  thanks for the pics, though, took me a minute...

> >wanted to show the sites in various browsers, to show we're not
> >just IE/win-centric... lots of caps in NN as well as on MacOS, too...
> 
> Oops. I think it's so subtle that I missed it completely.

oddly, we started doing that because we got comments from some 
leads who were all Mac shops (ad agencies) and felt that since we 
had shots of IE/win, we couldn't do anything else... since then, we 
change it up, trying to mix IE/NN and win/mac...

> >doesn't come off as a featured service?
> 
> Um, not with the way it's positioned right now. More like, "we needed
> an even number of items for symmetry and we don't, so let's stick this
> in the middle of both columns."
[...]

gotcha

[...]
> make it stand out. I mean, what *is* this picture:
> http://algonquinstudios.com/files/as_images/screencaps/thumbs/pill_cob
> .gif ? Somebody's neck? (?!?)

erm, part of a flag and part of city hall... (http://www.city-
buffalo.com/)... although your imagination intrigues me...

[...]
> The words "implementation", "design", "E-commerce", etc. are not
> hyperlinked. Only the graphics are.

ahhh...

> Ever seen those "You have one message waiting for you" pop-up ads? I'm
> not saying you're doing that, but you're trying to "trick" people into
> reading your releases by putting them into articles. Well, I guess
[...]

actually, no trick, but given that as an option, they went there 
instead of other places... dunno why... renaming is certainly an 
option, got any ideas besides 'articles'?

> Categorise them by both industry and type if you must. Make one of
> them hyperlinked to a separate page if required.

we do that in our clients page, but it seems that isn't adequate...

[...]
> >that's what the icons are for... two kinds of links, two kinds of
> >icons... unless i messed up, there should be two kinds of links, with
> >each kind branded...
> 
> Established UI convention makes me think that icons are *separate*
> from the hyperlinks. When I see the site name, I think that it goes to
> site and that the "case study" icon goes to a case study of the site.

oh, i know, but nobody clicked on the icon -- no matter what size 
the icon was... they'd click on the text with a mag glass and get 
the site, because they didn't think they should have to click the 
icon...

> Consistency is a very important part of good interfaces. If elements
> work one way half the time and another way the other half, it ain't
> usable.
> 
> I'd suggest hyperlinking all text to the actual site and hyperlinking
> only the icons to the case studies.
> 
> Also, make the icons bigger. You know about Fitt's law, right? [1]

yeah, i'm intimately familiar Fitt's Law, and i'm always reminding 
the enterprise developers of it, too...  but if people don't do as you 
suggest (clicking the icon), then it's all kind of moot... they *really* 
don't, and i know this because i tried it the other way on the old 
site...




From gregory.john.toland at census.gov  Fri Nov  9 09:29:56 2001
From: gregory.john.toland at census.gov (gregory.john.toland at census.gov)
Date: Fri Nov  9 09:29:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] Automatically Printing Web Pages
Message-ID: <OF4266ADAC.CDA22DB7-ON85256AFF.00542661@tco.census.gov>

Last week, I asked if anyone knew of software (or thru scripting) of a way
to print web pages in batch.  It was suggested I look at Acrobat 5.  This
comes close to what we want, but I wanted to see if anyone has any other
ideas.  Acrobat 5.0 does not allow you to select files in a directory.  You
either pick one file or you pick the entire directory.  We would like the
ability to supply wildcards (say ABC*.htm).  It also appends one file after
the other in one very large PDF.  This forces files to carry over and print
in the middle of the page.  I found a piece of software called SitePrint
Pro (http://www.optima-system.com/), but it only runs on the Mac.
Unfortuanely, we do not have any Macs.  Any other ideas?  Our task is to
print over 3,200 html files w/o having to click 3,2000 times.  I would like
to print selected files from a directory in a batch run.  Any ideas?

Gregory J Toland
Sr. Systems Architect
CHM, Inc.
(301) 457-8058
tolan002 at census.gov




From susanhw at webcastle.com  Fri Nov  9 09:57:54 2001
From: susanhw at webcastle.com (Susan Wallace)
Date: Fri Nov  9 09:57:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] Automatically Printing Web Pages
In-Reply-To: <OF4266ADAC.CDA22DB7-ON85256AFF.00542661@tco.census.gov>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109094956.00db19b0@webcastle.com>

Hi Gregory,

A quick search at Dave Central for "print web site" brings up this program:

http://www.davecentral.com/projects/autoprint/

Described as "AbacusPrint will automatically print any group of web pages 
or documents on a schedule". There may be others to look at on the site.

Good luck,

Susan Wallace

>Last week, I asked if anyone knew of software (or thru scripting) of a way
>to print web pages in batch.




From seb at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 10:07:44 2001
From: seb at members.evolt.org (Seb)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:07:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] Automatically Printing Web Pages
In-Reply-To: <OF4266ADAC.CDA22DB7-ON85256AFF.00542661@tco.census.gov>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011109160309.03c53cf0@members.evolt.org>

At 15:26 09/11/2001, Gregory J Toland wrote:
>Our task is to print over 3,200 html files w/o having to click 3,2000 
>times.  I would like to print selected files from a directory in a batch 
>run.  Any ideas?

What kind of interface are you using to do this? Do you want the printing 
done locally (i.e. the user has access to the windows shell and can 
right-click files in a directory to print them), or do you want this done 
through a browser interface?

I don't know of any off-the shelf software to do this, but this task sounds 
like it would be best served with a simple VB program. All you need is a 
dialogue to select the files, then pass them one at a time to the print queue.

Have you tried just using the find files utility in windows, then doing 
select-all, print?

Seb.




From cbg3 at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  9 10:08:52 2001
From: cbg3 at earthlink.net (Ben Gustafson)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:08:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] Are search engine spiders JavaScript-enabled?
Message-ID: <20011107175630.21682.qmail@earthlink.net>

I am updating my employer's ASP-generated site so that the URLs don't use query strings and so search engine spiders will slurp 'em down, and this question came to mind:

The home page of the site has one version with a lot of JavaScript, and another pared-down version for browsers without JavaScript. I don't send all that JavaScript code to non-JavaScript-enabled browsers, and do client-side JavaScript detection and send the info to the server, like so:

	<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript1.2"><!--
	document.location.href="default.asp?js=true";
	//--></SCRIPT>

If the browser doesn't have JavaScript, no redirection takes place, which has the added benefit of there being a version of the page with a URL without a query string. The rest of the default.asp script builds the page based on whether or not js==true.

Now, when a search engine spider visits default.asp, which version of the page is it going to crawl: The version built with js==true, the other version, or both? Is it going to ignore the js==true version since calling that version involves a URL with a query string and a browser redirect (to the same page)? Or are the questions not even relevant?

--Ben
________________
Ben Gustafson
Lionbridge Technologies, Inc.
www.lionbridge.com
-- 






From nonzero at well.com  Fri Nov  9 10:23:05 2001
From: nonzero at well.com (Kevin D. White)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:23:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Are search engine spiders JavaScript-enabled?
References: <20011107175630.21682.qmail@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000401c1693b$0e63c110$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>

Check your server logs.  The answer is in there.  Most legit crawlers
clearly identify themselves.  It's also worth noting that many search sites
(Yahoo, Google) do not use crawlers to gather site info.

Side note: Your method of redirection is going to trap JS-enabled people on
your site.  Every time they hit the back button, they are going to hit the
redirect page again.  Investigate the location.replace() method to solve
this problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Gustafson" <cbg3 at earthlink.net>
> Now, when a search engine spider visits default.asp, which version of the
page is it going to crawl: The version built with js==true, the other
version, or both? Is it going to ignore the js==true version since calling
that version involves a URL with a query string and a browser redirect (to
the same page)? Or are the questions not even relevant?




From adam at hallinteractive.com  Fri Nov  9 10:30:42 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:30:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <B811586E.511F%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <B8116F56.512C%adam@hallinteractive.com>

'allo
I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall within the
guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript
anyone?
.spazz.


on 11/9/01 9:54 AM, Adam at adam at hallinteractive.com wrote:

> yo listers!
> 
> SO. I'm curious. I'm looking at this delicious website (
> http://www.peterfunch.com ) and I love the way the popup windows come on the
> screen so I check the source and it's clearly WYSISYG generated script (the
> function that makes the popup slide). My question is, is there a way to get
> this script (remember I'm a coding n00bie) in a compliant
> (javascript/ECMAscript) format so I can use it?
> And if so...where and who would I have to rub to get it? I'm still not adept
> enough to write it myself, especially not from the mess I see there.
> 
> Any tips, ideas, offerings?
> 
> love, spazz.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 

-----
adam at hallinteractive.com
http://www.hallinteractive.com




From gregory.john.toland at census.gov  Fri Nov  9 10:30:51 2001
From: gregory.john.toland at census.gov (gregory.john.toland at census.gov)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:30:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] A Good CSS Tips Newsletter?
Message-ID: <OFCD94F350.D801B5C4-ON85256AFF.005ABF08@tco.census.gov>

Does anyone know of a good CSS Tips Newsletter or email list?

Gregory J Toland
Sr. Systems Architect
CHM, Inc.
(301) 457-8058
tolan002 at census.gov




From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Fri Nov  9 10:31:19 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:31:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Are search engine spiders JavaScript-enabled?
In-Reply-To: <20011107175630.21682.qmail@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200111091633.fA9GXDe15275@mail.swissonline.ch>

On 7 Nov 01, at 22:56, Ben Gustafson wrote:
> Now, when a search engine spider visits default.asp, which version of the
> page is it going to crawl: The version built with js==true, the other
> version, or both? Is it going to ignore the js==true version since calling
> that version involves a URL with a query string and a browser redirect (to
> the same page)? Or are the questions not even relevant?

Most (if not all) search engine spiders will simply ignore everything 
between script tags, because they can't afford the time, resources 
and costs to run a JS engine to parse JavaScripts. In your case 
spiders won't notice the redirect to the JS version, so I guess they 
will index only the non JS version.

Keep in mind that contents of noscript elements will be usually be 
indexed, though (I know for sure that Google does it). In some cases 
that provides for good search engine optimization possibilities (ie 
put keyword-rich text between noscript tags).

N.



From chrism at puffofsmoke.net  Fri Nov  9 10:39:49 2001
From: chrism at puffofsmoke.net (The Optimizer)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:39:49 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <B8116F56.512C%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBEEHPCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>

Adam

> I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall
> within the
> guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript
> anyone?

I guess it could do. Of course what you were looking at appears to be Flash
;)

Regards

Chris Marsh




From mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com  Fri Nov  9 10:47:51 2001
From: mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com (Matt)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:47:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
References: <B8116F56.512C%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <3BEC0943.3BEAA0B5@lightbulbpress.com>

Buy yourself a good Flash book and a copy of Flash 5. After a couple weeks you
should be able to mimic that effect no sweat.

Adam wrote:

> 'allo
> I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall within the
> guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript
> anyone?
> .spazz.
>
> on 11/9/01 9:54 AM, Adam at adam at hallinteractive.com wrote:
>
> > yo listers!
> >
> > SO. I'm curious. I'm looking at this delicious website (
> > http://www.peterfunch.com ) and I love the way the popup windows come on the
> > screen so I check the source and it's clearly WYSISYG generated script (the
> > function that makes the popup slide). My question is, is there a way to get
> > this script (remember I'm a coding n00bie) in a compliant
> > (javascript/ECMAscript) format so I can use it?
> > And if so...where and who would I have to rub to get it? I'm still not adept
> > enough to write it myself, especially not from the mess I see there.
> >
> > Any tips, ideas, offerings?
> >
> > love, spazz.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> >
>
> -----
> adam at hallinteractive.com
> http://www.hallinteractive.com
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From adam at hallinteractive.com  Fri Nov  9 10:56:00 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Fri Nov  9 10:56:00 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBEEHPCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>
Message-ID: <B8117545.5132%adam@hallinteractive.com>

hey Chris!
thx for the reply
...but to your response I say NAY! NEIN, NON, and NHYET. the bit I was
referring to was the popup sliding to the center of the page, not the lovely
flash contained therein.


hey I see Matt also is telling me it is a flash thing. but what is all that
<csaction> bit? thats not generated by flash is it? I thought that was
generated by GoLive or some other WYSIWYG program.

So does that mean then that those lucky few with the proper flash plugin
would also be able (regardless of javascript-3rd party script enabled) to
read that code?

I'm so confused?!!? Does flash control that window behaviour? Would that
launch page validate under W3C guidelines (if it had a dtd, et all)?

whaddayou think?
.spazz.




on 11/9/01 11:39 AM, The Optimizer at chrism at puffofsmoke.net wrote:

> Adam
> 
>> I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall
>> within the
>> guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript
>> anyone?
> 
> I guess it could do. Of course what you were looking at appears to be Flash
> ;)
> 
> Regards
> 
> Chris Marsh
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> 

-----
adam at hallinteractive.com
http://www.hallinteractive.com




From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Fri Nov  9 11:03:34 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:03:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <B8116F56.512C%adam@hallinteractive.com>
References: <B811586E.511F%adam@hallinteractive.com>
Message-ID: <200111091705.fA9H5Me16131@mail.swissonline.ch>

On 9 Nov 01, at 11:32, Adam wrote:
> I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall within
> the guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript anyone? .spazz.

Well, depends on who's guidelines you want to follow. ;) Although I 
find popups generally and moving popups specifically a bit annoying, 
I'd say it's formally OK to do it. If you relie on JS to open a new 
window you may as well relie on it to move the window around. If you 
must do a popup just be sure to provide a possibility for non-JS 
browsers (that includes for example search engine spiders) to access 
the contents of the popup.

As for the sliding-to-the-center effect you're after: As you 
suspected the script on the page you mentioned could be stripped down 
a bit. It's not all that easy, though. I'd give it a try if I wasn't 
to leave just now. ;)

N.



From nhaldimann at gmx.ch  Fri Nov  9 11:12:13 2001
From: nhaldimann at gmx.ch (Niklaus Haldimann)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:12:13 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <B8117545.5132%adam@hallinteractive.com>
References: <NEBBKGGIMLIHJJNFJJDBEEHPCEAA.chrism@puffofsmoke.net>
Message-ID: <200111091714.fA9HE3e07733@mail.swissonline.ch>

On 9 Nov 01, at 11:57, Adam wrote:
> I'm so confused?!!? Does flash control that window behaviour? Would that
> launch page validate under W3C guidelines (if it had a dtd, et all)?

No. In this case it's not Flash controlling the window. It's a 
JavaScript that does the sliding thing. Since the HTML validator 
doesn't give a rat's ass about JavaScript the page would validate if 
it's code was well-formed.

N.



From andre at gaulin.ca  Fri Nov  9 11:21:28 2001
From: andre at gaulin.ca (andre gaulin)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:21:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
References: <B8116F56.512C%adam@hallinteractive.com> <3BEC0943.3BEAA0B5@lightbulbpress.com>
Message-ID: <000601c16942$a7ab6470$0c00400a@navantis.com>

the script is very simple....

the main config stuff is in the following line:

<csaction name="B810A3370" class="SlideNewWindow" type="onevent"
val0="main.html" val1="" val2="760" val3="360" val4="false" val5="false"
val6="false" val7="false" val8="false" val9="false" val10="false">

main.html is the destination for thel ink, and the other val attributes are
to control the pop up window display...

does this help?

Andre



----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt" <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)


> Buy yourself a good Flash book and a copy of Flash 5. After a couple weeks
you
> should be able to mimic that effect no sweat.
>
> Adam wrote:
>
> > 'allo
> > I guess my REAL question is, does this kind of functionality fall within
the
> > guidelines for valid use of javascript/ ECMAscript
> > anyone?
> > .spazz.
> >
> > on 11/9/01 9:54 AM, Adam at adam at hallinteractive.com wrote:
> >
> > > yo listers!
> > >
> > > SO. I'm curious. I'm looking at this delicious website (
> > > http://www.peterfunch.com ) and I love the way the popup windows come
on the
> > > screen so I check the source and it's clearly WYSISYG generated script
(the
> > > function that makes the popup slide). My question is, is there a way
to get
> > > this script (remember I'm a coding n00bie) in a compliant
> > > (javascript/ECMAscript) format so I can use it?
> > > And if so...where and who would I have to rub to get it? I'm still not
adept
> > > enough to write it myself, especially not from the mess I see there.
> > >
> > > Any tips, ideas, offerings?
> > >
> > > love, spazz.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------
> > > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> > > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> > >
> >
> > -----
> > adam at hallinteractive.com
> > http://www.hallinteractive.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From taracc at home.com  Fri Nov  9 11:23:40 2001
From: taracc at home.com (Tara Cleveland)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:23:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] IE on the mac doing strange things
References: <F232jAKYVpMmOlbcrYP0000058b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BEC1269.1D1066DE@home.com>

Schaz, 

As far as I know, background images on <tr> is only supported in NS. So
you'll have to put it in the <td>.

You can check out this list of tags and attributes and what browers
support here:
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/supportkey/t.htm

Is there a particular reason you want it on the row and not in the cell?

Regards,
Tara

Schaz Stevens wrote:
> 
> Greetings evolters
> 
> I've got a bit of a display problem when viewing a page on IE for the Mac
> (ie 5.5 I think).
> 
> I'm using tables to keep the navigation and text separate and I've set a
> background image for the row where I've got the text. Herein lies the
> problem - shows up perfectly on NN6.2 but IE isn't showing the background
> image (yes there is text there).
> 
> I've found a work-around if I put the background image on the <td> tag as
> well it displays on IE
> 
> Snip of code here:
> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="center"
> width="600">
>         <tr>
>           <td align="center">
>             <img src="images/logo-top.gif" width="206" height="38">
>           </td>
>         </tr>
>         <tr background="images/table-bg.jpg">
> 
> Any idea how to get this to work without having to put the image on the <td>
> tag as well?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Schaz
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !



From skaiser1 at skdesigns.com  Fri Nov  9 11:23:48 2001
From: skaiser1 at skdesigns.com (Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:23:48 2001
Subject: [thelist] A Good CSS Tips Newsletter?
In-Reply-To: <OFCD94F350.D801B5C4-ON85256AFF.005ABF08@tco.census.gov>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109091400.0456d0a0@mail.midtown.net>

At 08:32 AM 11/09/2001, Gregory Toland wrote:
>Does anyone know of a good CSS Tips Newsletter or email list?

Hi, Gregory,

There are a couple of exceptional newsgroups for CSS where some terrific 
CSS gurus hang out and generously contribute so much time and fabulous 
responses.

In addition to listing newsgroups and mailing lists, I've put together 
annotated links to many of the best CSS tutorials, tips, charts, 
workarounds, etc. at WebsiteTips.com that I've come across (or that people 
have submitted) here, which may be helpful, too:
http://www.websitetips.com/css/

Here's the direct link to the newsgroups it lists what I mentioned above:
http://www.websitetips.com/css/#newsgroups

I don't know of CSS-specific email discussion lists or newsletters at the 
moment, but I'd love to know of some, too. As soon as I learn of some I'll 
list them at WebsiteTips.com's CSS section, too.

Warmly,
Shirley

-- 
Shirley E. Kaiser, M.A.
SKDesigns  mailto:skaiser at skdesigns.com
Website Design, Development  http://www.skdesigns.com/
Pianist, Composer  http://www.shirleykaiser.com/
Brainstorms and Raves http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/
Moderator, I-Design http://www.adventive.com/lists/idesign/summary.html




From nopun at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov  9 11:32:02 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:32:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] Fed. Contract announcement
Message-ID: <01e001c16944$eaa29260$7399fea9@tyme>

FYI from Tyme:

http://www.bidradar.com/cgi-bin/display.asp?Date=20011109&SolNo=OAM-2002-N-0
04-BID1108217

99 -- WEB-BASED RECRUITMENT AND HIRING APPLICATION
U.S. General Accounting Office, Acquisition Management,, 441 G. Street N.W.,
Room 6851,, Washington,, DC, 20548
Status: PROCUREMENT Announced: 11/9/01 Due Date: 11/26/01
- WEB-BASED RECRUITMENT AND HIRING APPLICATION





From zapoleto at altavista.net  Fri Nov  9 11:47:08 2001
From: zapoleto at altavista.net (zapoleto at altavista.net)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:47:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] Printing fixed width strings in PHP
Message-ID: <2453.011109@sensor.com.mx>

I?m making a PHP script that prints a MySQL table on the screen, but I
need to format the fields in a table with a fixed width since the
table will then be printed by the user and I want the report to
print correctly in all cases.

The problem I have is that some fields will be longer and won?t fit in
the widht I want.  I don?t want the field to wrap either, so I need to
cut the string before sending it.  Since the nice fonts are all
variable width, most fields look as if more characters could fit in
the space because I?m trimming the string by a certain number of
characters and depending on the characters, the width will vary.

Is there a function I could use that can trim a string based on the
number of pixels that the string will occupy when printed ?





From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Fri Nov  9 11:58:47 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Fri Nov  9 11:58:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] A Good CSS Tips Newsletter?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109091400.0456d0a0@mail.midtown.net>
Message-ID: <005a01c16948$af7b9c00$2860398a@newcos.com>

Shirley,

> I don't know of CSS-specific email discussion lists or newsletters at the
> moment, but I'd love to know of some, too. As soon as I learn of some I'll
> list them at WebsiteTips.com's CSS section, too.

    The W3C hosts several lists on various web-related topics [1], including
one for css [2]. They are frequented by industry heavies, who occasionally
provide insight into why their products interpret the specifications as they
do. However, I should warn that these are *not* intended as "how-to" or tips
lists (e.g., "How do I make ul elements blue in Netscape 4.x?" would not be
an appropriate question); they are technical discussion lists that can
become very esoteric, and may induce drowsiness (so don't operate heavy
machinery while reading them). I suggest that anyone who is considering
subscribing to those lists first peruse a week or two of their archives to
see whether they are still interested.

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/Mail/Lists.html
2. http://www.w3.org/Mail/Lists.html#www-style





From paul at thereformist.com  Fri Nov  9 12:20:11 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:20:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
In-Reply-To: <20011109170908.AB20C51F1E@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <B8115EBF.13A9%paul@thereformist.com>

Can anybody enlighten me on how to effectively replace 'align=center' (in
DIVs, H1s, TDs, etc.) with a CSS1 control? I've scoured all the references I
have but could only find a 'text-align' property, which only seems to apply
to text within an element rather than the element itself. This is confusing
me, because there is a 'vertical-align' property which DOES affect entire
elements.

Am I mistaken, or am I still stuck with a deprecated attribute to achieve
what I want?

Paul (trying to be "Mr. Standards-Compliant") Peterson





From fortune_elkins at summithq.com  Fri Nov  9 12:31:29 2001
From: fortune_elkins at summithq.com (Fortune Elkins)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:31:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] urgent! popup window problem in Netscape 4!
Message-ID: <1449413DA482D311B67000508B5A12F5039B679C@nyexchange01.summithq.com>

hiya!

been using this popup window script for a while:

function popUp(theURL,winName,features) {
        popWin = window.open(theURL,winName,features);
		setTimeout('popWin.focus()', 500);
        }

triggered in the document by:

<a href="#"
onClick="popUp('mydoc.htm','PopUpWindow','width=590,height=420,scrollbars,re
sizable')">

it was working great for me in IE4+ and Netscape 4.76 and Netscape 6.x.
suddenly, however, it's stopped working in Netscape 4.76! the mydoc.htm only
loads *halfway* and then stops! 

what's that all about? must fix ASAP, but have no clue as to what the
trouble is!

all tips, tricks, insights deeply appreciated!

tia,

f

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
The views and opinions expressed in this email message are the sender's
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From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Fri Nov  9 12:38:39 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:38:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] Printing fixed width strings in PHP
In-Reply-To: <2453.011109@sensor.com.mx>; from zapoleto@altavista.net on Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 10:52:20AM -0600
References: <2453.011109@sensor.com.mx>
Message-ID: <20011109104034.A246@simianbrotherhood.org>

poke around with chunk_split(), it doesn't do pixels but will do
characters, not exactly what you're looking for but it very well may be
your only option.

Good luck..

On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 10:52:20AM -0600, zapoleto at altavista.net wrote:
> I?m making a PHP script that prints a MySQL table on the screen, but I
> need to format the fields in a table with a fixed width since the
> table will then be printed by the user and I want the report to
> print correctly in all cases.
> 
> The problem I have is that some fields will be longer and won?t fit in
> the widht I want.  I don?t want the field to wrap either, so I need to
> cut the string before sending it.  Since the nice fonts are all
> variable width, most fields look as if more characters could fit in
> the space because I?m trimming the string by a certain number of
> characters and depending on the characters, the width will vary.
> 
> Is there a function I could use that can trim a string based on the
> number of pixels that the string will occupy when printed ?
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov  9 12:44:19 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:44:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
Message-ID: <01c1694e$d0d3edc0$3651149a@rudy>

> Can anybody enlighten me on how to effectively replace 'align=center'
> (in DIVs, H1s, TDs, etc.) with a CSS1 control? I've scoured all the
> references I have but could only find a 'text-align' property, which only
> seems to apply to text within an element rather than the element itself.

hi paul

you've pretty much stumbled on it

throw yer stuff into a div which has text-align:center

watch out for inheritance, though -- if you have a paragraph in such a div,
not only will the p be centered in the div (taking into account margins and
padding), but the text in each line of the p may be centered too, so you
then have to turn around and give text-align:left back to the p... does
this make sense?

oh, and don't forget to test in all browsers...  [sigh]


rudy




From cache at dowebs.com  Fri Nov  9 12:53:15 2001
From: cache at dowebs.com (Keith)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:53:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] urgent! popup window problem in Netscape 4!
In-Reply-To: <1449413DA482D311B67000508B5A12F5039B679C@nyexchange01.summithq.com>
Message-ID: <3BEBC426.25288.95C6D7@localhost>

> function popUp(theURL,winName,features) {
>         popWin = window.open(theURL,winName,features);
>   setTimeout('popWin.focus()', 500);
>         }

> it was working great for me in IE4+ and Netscape 4.76 and Netscape
> 6.x. suddenly, however, it's stopped working in Netscape 4.76! the
> mydoc.htm only loads *halfway* and then stops! 

Try removing your setTimeout('popWin.focus()', 500); If the 
document hasn't loaded by the time the parent calls the focus it's 
probably breaking popWin. Since you have no control over web 
traffic speed I suggest you do not intergrate any timing events 
between the two windows involving traffic. Instead use 
onload=window.focus() in the body tag of the document in popWin. 

keith



From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Fri Nov  9 12:56:39 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:56:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
References: <B8115EBF.13A9%paul@thereformist.com>
Message-ID: <006901c16950$c5570840$2860398a@newcos.com>

Paul,

> Can anybody enlighten me on how to effectively replace 'align=center' (in
> DIVs, H1s, TDs, etc.) with a CSS1 control? I've scoured all the references
I
> have but could only find a 'text-align' property, which only seems to
apply
> to text within an element rather than the element itself. This is
confusing
> me, because there is a 'vertical-align' property which DOES affect entire
> elements.

    Well, text-align: center does replace align="center" in the specific
instances that you site (divs, hxs, tds). It's intended to center inline
content within a block element.
    If you want to center a block element itself on the page, take a step
back first: typically block elements span the entire width of their
container, so centering them within that container may not make sense.
Tables are not quite the same beastie, since by default their width is only
as wide as necessary to contain their content.
    If, however, you explicitly set the width of a block element (including
a table) to something less than 100%, you need to set "margin: auto" to
cause your block elements to center. Keep in mind that this only works in IE
6 in standards-compliance mode and Netscape 6 (not sure about Opera
offhand).

James Aylard




From fortune_elkins at summithq.com  Fri Nov  9 12:59:07 2001
From: fortune_elkins at summithq.com (Fortune Elkins)
Date: Fri Nov  9 12:59:07 2001
Subject: [thelist] urgent! popup window problem in Netscape 4!
Message-ID: <1449413DA482D311B67000508B5A12F5039B679D@nyexchange01.summithq.com>

hiya keith!

ok,i remove that line of code, and it still happens when i test locally. do
you have netscape 4.76? could you look at my URL quickly if i sent it to
you?

tia,

f

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith [mailto:cache at dowebs.com]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:55 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] urgent! popup window problem in Netscape 4!



> function popUp(theURL,winName,features) {
>         popWin = window.open(theURL,winName,features);
>   setTimeout('popWin.focus()', 500);
>         }

> it was working great for me in IE4+ and Netscape 4.76 and Netscape
> 6.x. suddenly, however, it's stopped working in Netscape 4.76! the
> mydoc.htm only loads *halfway* and then stops! 

Try removing your setTimeout('popWin.focus()', 500); If the 
document hasn't loaded by the time the parent calls the focus it's 
probably breaking popWin. Since you have no control over web 
traffic speed I suggest you do not intergrate any timing events 
between the two windows involving traffic. Instead use 
onload=window.focus() in the body tag of the document in popWin. 

keith

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
The views and opinions expressed in this email message are the sender's
own, and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Summit
Systems Inc.




From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 13:07:27 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 13:07:27 2001
Subject: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
In-Reply-To: <20011109173251.D5F96C02B@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110000258.00af7460@203.197.12.4>

At 11:02 PM 11/9/2001, you wrote:
>For what it's worth, my Win98 is so unstable that it really
>doesn't matter.

C'mon man, fight the system. Don't let it win!

May I recommend you download an excellent utility called Regcleaner and 
have it run a "clean" cycle on your registry. (It's in Tools > Registry 
Cleanup > Do them all.)
I'm sure you will weed out LOTS of crap that has been accumulating over 
time as programs didn't uninstall properly, etc. Trust me. It's like 
cleaning out the attic.

Download it here:
http://www.vtoy.fi/jv16/RegCleaner.exe

Oh, and do backup your registry first, just in case ;)

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 13:07:34 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 13:07:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] Are search engine spiders JavaScript-enabled?
In-Reply-To: <20011109173251.D5F96C02B@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110002832.02818e90@203.197.12.4>

At 11:02 PM 11/9/2001, Kevin wrote:

>Check your server logs.  The answer is in there.  Most legit crawlers
>clearly identify themselves.  It's also worth noting that many search sites
>(Yahoo, Google) do not use crawlers to gather site info.

That's not completely correct. Yahoo is a manual directory system and uses 
Google technology for its web site search. Google, however, *does* crawl 
sites. Its spider is called GoogleBot. How else can it index the content of 
web pages?

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From webmaster at equilon-mrc.com  Fri Nov  9 13:12:18 2001
From: webmaster at equilon-mrc.com (MRC)
Date: Fri Nov  9 13:12:18 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
References: <B8115EBF.13A9%paul@thereformist.com> <006901c16950$c5570840$2860398a@newcos.com>
Message-ID: <007401c16952$f4bdaab0$2860398a@newcos.com>

Paul,

>     Well, text-align: center does replace align="center" in the specific
> instances that you site (divs, hxs, tds). It's intended to center inline
> content within a block element.

    To post-script myself: keep in mind that align="center" on the td
element is not deprecated, so it's valid html even using a strict dtd.

James Aylard




From ed at edcourtenay.co.uk  Fri Nov  9 13:22:06 2001
From: ed at edcourtenay.co.uk (Ed Courtenay)
Date: Fri Nov  9 13:22:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Personal Site Critique
Message-ID: <CPEPJNJOEPGLPIOLAFHDMEFICBAA.ed@edcourtenay.co.uk>

I know it's only a naff personal site, but any comments on
http://www.edcourtenay.co.uk would be welcomed.

Cheers

Ed Courtenay




From adam at hallinteractive.com  Fri Nov  9 13:36:28 2001
From: adam at hallinteractive.com (Adam)
Date: Fri Nov  9 13:36:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] valid wysywig help (does no one love me?)
In-Reply-To: <000601c16942$a7ab6470$0c00400a@navantis.com>
Message-ID: <B8119AE1.5151%adam@hallinteractive.com>

Thanks to everyone who responded.
yes Andre it does help, and thx.

I guess all in all everyone who helped me missed my initial point which was
please do my job for me and help me find a better written javascript. cuz
the one I like didn't look like a standards compliant 3rd party script nor
did it look like anything I wanted in my own source code since I couldn't
gleen the slightest sense from it nor edit/debug should the need arise.

http://www.peterfunch.com

I'm glad y'all came out ta help me, so my heart is warmed. I hope I can
likewise help you all in some way in the future.     In the meantime I'm
going to hunt down a better version of that script.
 Cheers!!!


on 11/9/01 12:19 PM, andre gaulin at andre at gaulin.ca wrote:

> the script is very simple....
> 
> the main config stuff is in the following line:
> 
> <csaction name="B810A3370" class="SlideNewWindow" type="onevent"
> val0="main.html" val1="" val2="760" val3="360" val4="false" val5="false"
> val6="false" val7="false" val8="false" val9="false" val10="false">
> 
> main.html is the destination for thel ink, and the other val attributes are
> to control the pop up window display...
> 
> does this help?
> 
> Andre
> 
> 
> 




From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 14:29:01 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 14:29:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] design critique (long)
In-Reply-To: <20011109173251.D5F96C02B@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110014417.028bb1a8@203.197.12.4>

> > Oops. I think it's so subtle that I missed it completely.
>
>oddly, we started doing that because we got comments from some
>leads who were all Mac shops (ad agencies) and felt that since we
>had shots of IE/win, we couldn't do anything else... since then, we
>change it up, trying to mix IE/NN and win/mac...

So your site audience is also ad agencies? If not, their opinion doesn't 
count that much. If yes, er, it does.


>[...]
> > make it stand out. I mean, what *is* this picture:
> > http://algonquinstudios.com/files/as_images/screencaps/thumbs/pill_cob
> > .gif ? Somebody's neck? (?!?)
>
>erm, part of a flag and part of city hall... (http://www.city-
>buffalo.com/)... although your imagination intrigues me...

Hey, after seeing that picture of you in your Hawaiian shirt, I thought 
this was just another shot of you in a similar shirt. Look carefully. It 
looks like a guy in a red t-shirt and a blue shirt with stars on it on top 
of that. :)


> > Categorise them by both industry and type if you must. Make one of
> > them hyperlinked to a separate page if required.
>
>we do that in our clients page, but it seems that isn't adequate...

Yes, yes, you organise it by industry. What I'm saying is that you add 
another page that organises it by "type of work" (use better label) such as 
"corporate identity", "web site design", "web application", "knowledge 
management solutions", "e-commerce sites", etc. It shows versatility in 
more than one way.


> > Established UI convention makes me think that icons are *separate*
> > from the hyperlinks. When I see the site name, I think that it goes to
> > site and that the "case study" icon goes to a case study of the site.
>
>oh, i know, but nobody clicked on the icon -- no matter what size
>the icon was... they'd click on the text with a mag glass and get
>the site, because they didn't think they should have to click the
>icon...

Oh, there's a simple explanation for that. The text hyperlink is the 
biggest "clickable" thing there, hence that's what will get clicked.

Want a solution? Remove the hyperlink from the text completely. Put "case 
study" and "view site" icons next to them as necessary. More importantly, 
make them *look* clickable. This means making them slightly three 
dimensional. I've done a 2 minute job on a portion of your page and 
uploaded it at: http://expressa.com/images/misc/algon-3.gif

(Don't judge my work by those graphics, however. I'm sure you could do a 
much better job. I just hastily put it together)

Adjust to desired aesthetic quality. ;)

Now there can be no mistake in identifying the proper hyperlink. By 
removing the text hyperlink, you have eliminated significant confusion.

Let me know what you think. I'm on digest, so it'll take a while for a 
response.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov  9 15:14:58 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov  9 15:14:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] Personal Site Critique
References: <CPEPJNJOEPGLPIOLAFHDMEFICBAA.ed@edcourtenay.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001501c16963$84da6ab0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

I didn't dig real deep, but it's sure better than a lot of personal sites
I've seen ;) Simple w/o being downright boring. The color combo of
ltblue/black/white started growing on me, though at first it seemed
discordant for some reason. Maybe if I squint a little and tilt my head to
the left . . .

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Courtenay" <ed at edcourtenay.co.uk>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: [thelist] Personal Site Critique


>
> I know it's only a naff personal site, but any comments on
> http://www.edcourtenay.co.uk would be welcomed.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ed Courtenay
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 15:23:36 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov  9 15:23:36 2001
Subject: [thelist] FYI - IE cross domain cookie bug..
Message-ID: <3BEC4986.1070702@members.evolt.org>

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7828689.html
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-055.asp

Apparently, the security hole allows malicous sites or HTML formatted 
emails to read cookies from domains oursite their own. e.g. a malicous 
page on ebay.com could read a cookie set by amazon.com

No patch yet. Fix is to disable active scripting and wait.

.djc.




From rthigpen at nc.rr.com  Fri Nov  9 16:02:19 2001
From: rthigpen at nc.rr.com (Ron Thigpen)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:02:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] FYI - IE cross domain cookie bug..
References: <3BEC4986.1070702@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BEC52DE.8010100@nc.rr.com>

There are a few good workarounds that will protect your cookie data from 
malicious copying.

Disabling all cookies, and active scripting should prevent this attack. 
   Remember to disable scripting in e-mail. (If using Outlook, set the 
e-mail content zone to "Restricted Sites".  This option should be 
available under the security settings.)

If you don't like losing the functionality of cookies and scripting, and 
are comfortable making changes to your system registry, the following 
also provides protection, while leaving these enabled.

This vulnerability depends on scripting that can occur on pages loaded 
under the "about:" protocol.  Assigning this protocol to the Restricted 
Sites security zone prevents pages using this protocol from running 
scripts. This will provide protection.  You have to edit the registry to 
make this assignment.

All the usual disclaimers about registry editing apply: it can break 
your system, make backups before editing, and don't do this if you don't 
know what you are doing.  I'm not responsible if you break your system.

Create a DWORD value in the registry named "about" under: 
[HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet 
Settings\ZoneMap\ProtocolDefaults]and set it's value to 4.

You can test for vulnerability at the following page:
<http://www.solutions.fi/index.cgi/extra_iebug?lang=eng>
Load this into a suspected vulnerable browser and enter the URL of a 
site you know you have cookies set for (and don't mind exposing to this 
webserver).

FWIW, Microsoft is blaming the discoverer of this vulnerability for 
irresponsibly releasing its details, even though this has been in the 
open for at least three weeks now 
(http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/221612) and the fix is 
apparently as simple as adding a single registry value.

<quote source="MS">
Why isn't there a patch available for this issue?

The person who discovered this vulnerability has chosen to handle it 
irresponsibly , and has deliberately made this issue public only a few 
days after reporting it to Microsoft. It is simply not possible to 
build, test and release a patch within this timeframe and still meet 
reasonable quality standards.
</quote source="MS">

be careful out there,

--rt


Daniel J. Cody wrote:

> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7828689.html
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-055.asp 
> 
> Apparently, the security hole allows malicous sites or HTML formatted 
> emails to read cookies from domains oursite their own. e.g. a malicous 
> page on ebay.com could read a cookie set by amazon.com
> 
> No patch yet. Fix is to disable active scripting and wait.






From lists at szaroconsulting.com  Fri Nov  9 16:07:43 2001
From: lists at szaroconsulting.com (Peter)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:07:43 2001
Subject: [thelist] Another Personal Site Critique
In-Reply-To: <001501c16963$84da6ab0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <NLEPJMCFDFOCLGJAAOKNCEBCIBAA.lists@szaroconsulting.com>

Hello Everyone!
I have recently joined this list as would appreciate any input on my
personal website. I'd appreciate some constructive criticism on layout,
colors, and organization. The site is primarily designed for future
employers, family and friends. Feel free to sign the guestbook! :-)

Browser, Resolution, OS, Connection speed?

http://peterszaro.com

Thank you in advance for your time and effort!

~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter




From mjuarez at telseon.com  Fri Nov  9 16:14:57 2001
From: mjuarez at telseon.com (Michael Juarez)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:14:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] SMTP/CDONTS trouble
Message-ID: <8A4FFB0EA1DE44488DBE6DCD0CA9E4A7079469@Mvex01.corp.telseon.com>

Hi,

Wondering if anyone can help me with my SMTP/CDONTS trouble. Here's the
problem:

I have a new Win2K server, with virtual SMTP server installed, standard
stuff. Although my CDONTS script processes requests, the SMTP server
seems unable to relay messages. Instead, messages are kept in the Queue
folder of the mailroot directory. Looking in the Badmail directory, I
find the following error:

Unable to deliver this message because the follow error was encountered:
"Error is processing file in pickup directory.".

The specific error code was 0xC00402CE

I assume there are some configuration problems with respect to the
virtual SMTP server, and not a CDONTS script problem. I should note that
the CDONTS script works fine on my development server, which runs the
same OS as the one giving me trouble.

Any ideas?

MJ





From cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com  Fri Nov  9 16:26:47 2001
From: cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com (l a u r a *^* l y n c h)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:26:47 2001
Subject: [thelist] Browser to front -- is it just me? + tip
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109171840.009f0060@cyberwhirled.com>

Quick Q: I've noticed recently - past week or so - that  when I click a 
link from email then go back to reading my email while I wait for the site 
to load, the browser will keep trying to bring focus back to itself (thus 
popping over my email). I'm using IE 5.5/Win98 and haven't recently 
upgraded it nor do I recall changing the settings. These are largely sites 
I haven't had this problem with in the past, so I'm wondering if it's 
something in my settings (just because I don't recall changing them doesn't 
mean I didn't) or if they've 'improved' their sites. Basically, can anyone 
help me make this go away?


l a u r a *^* l y n c h
design doyen @ cyberwhirled
http://www.cyberwhirled.com
ICQ: 1797450 AIM: cyberminkie

<tip type="software installation - Win9x">
If you're having trouble with an installer freezing, you may be able 
bludgeon it into your system by copying the install to a temp folder on 
your hard drive (if it's on a CD or Zip - not necessary if it was a 
download) and installing it from Safe Mode.  Some installers seem to hang 
because of driver conflicts, and of course Safe Mode disables all but the 
bare minimum.
</tip>




From framar at interlog.com  Fri Nov  9 16:26:52 2001
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:26:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
Message-ID: <p05001900b811fa5ec266@[24.43.66.191]>

I want my user to be able to download a file from a web page. I don't 
have access to FTP, and so use http. I don't want spreadsheets, gifs 
and pdfs or executables to be displayed in, or launched by the 
browser, I want them to download. I can't control the user's 
preferences. Suggestions? Thanks!
-- 

Our best destiny, as planetary cohabitants, is the development
of what has been called "species consciousness" - something over
and above nationalisms, blocs, religions, ethnicities.


Frank Marion                      Framar Studios
frank at framarstudios.com           http://www.framarstudios.com



From martin at takingitglobal.org  Fri Nov  9 16:30:22 2001
From: martin at takingitglobal.org (Martin Kuplens-Ewart)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:30:22 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
In-Reply-To: <p05001900b811fa5ec266@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <000401c1696d$f59fb200$6501a8c0@martinlaptop>

Hmm... Create a page linking to it and tell the user to
right/shift-click, etc?

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Frank
Sent: November 9, 2001 5:29 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] http download problems



I want my user to be able to download a file from a web page. I don't 
have access to FTP, and so use http. I don't want spreadsheets, gifs 
and pdfs or executables to be displayed in, or launched by the 
browser, I want them to download. I can't control the user's 
preferences. Suggestions? Thanks!





From caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org  Fri Nov  9 16:36:34 2001
From: caffiend at simianbrotherhood.org (Dave Preston)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:36:34 2001
Subject: [thelist] SMTP/CDONTS trouble
In-Reply-To: <8A4FFB0EA1DE44488DBE6DCD0CA9E4A7079469@Mvex01.corp.telseon.com>; from mjuarez@telseon.com on Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 02:15:42PM -0800
References: <8A4FFB0EA1DE44488DBE6DCD0CA9E4A7079469@Mvex01.corp.telseon.com>
Message-ID: <20011109143331.B246@simianbrotherhood.org>

I'm not a windows guy by any strech of the imagination, but check this
thread out...

http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=BXRn7.6027%24%25u4.35910%40www.newsranger.com&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522Error%2Bis%2Bprocessing%2Bfile%2Bin%2Bpickup%2Bdirectory%2522%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch

good luck...

On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 02:15:42PM -0800, Michael Juarez wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Wondering if anyone can help me with my SMTP/CDONTS trouble. Here's the
> problem:
> 
> I have a new Win2K server, with virtual SMTP server installed, standard
> stuff. Although my CDONTS script processes requests, the SMTP server
> seems unable to relay messages. Instead, messages are kept in the Queue
> folder of the mailroot directory. Looking in the Badmail directory, I
> find the following error:
> 
> Unable to deliver this message because the follow error was encountered:
> "Error is processing file in pickup directory.".
> 
> The specific error code was 0xC00402CE
> 
> I assume there are some configuration problems with respect to the
> virtual SMTP server, and not a CDONTS script problem. I should note that
> the CDONTS script works fine on my development server, which runs the
> same OS as the one giving me trouble.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> MJ
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 
> 



From nonzero at well.com  Fri Nov  9 16:38:44 2001
From: nonzero at well.com (Kevin D. White)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:38:44 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
References: <p05001900b811fa5ec266@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <008e01c1696f$8987cfb0$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>

I assume your problem is IE-related.  So try this:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q260/5/19.ASP
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank" <framar at interlog.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> browser, I want them to download. I can't control the user's 
> preferences. Suggestions? Thanks!




From cache at dowebs.com  Fri Nov  9 16:55:46 2001
From: cache at dowebs.com (Keith)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:55:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
In-Reply-To: <p05001900b811fa5ec266@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <3BEBFCFB.20069.173CBF4@localhost>

> 
> I want my user to be able to download a file from a web page. I don't
> have access to FTP, and so use http. I don't want spreadsheets, gifs
> and pdfs or executables to be displayed in, or launched by the
> browser, I want them to download. I can't control the user's
> preferences. Suggestions? Thanks! -- 

Perl solution:
point your href to a script with:

$page_name = give it any name you want
$file_name = the path to the file

print "Content-Type: application/x-unknown\n";
print "Content-Disposition: attachment; 
filename=$page_name\n\n"; 
open(R,"$file_name");
while(<R>){print}
close(R);

[the second print line from Content_Disposition thru to \n\n needs to 
be on one line]

IE & NN on win32 will look at the file's structure to determine the 
application to use for running the file and prompt to either run the 
file or save it to disk. Don't know about other browsers on other 
OSs.

keith



From john at neoncowboy.com  Fri Nov  9 17:15:02 2001
From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:15:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] H2 padding in NN
In-Reply-To: <3BEBFCFB.20069.173CBF4@localhost>
Message-ID: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAOEEEEFAA.john@neoncowboy.com>

Is there any way to get rid of the ~10px that NN is inserting beneath my H1
& H2 tags?
http://www.hawaiianromance.com/new%20site

The client doesn't like the way it looks. I watched in pain as she stared
back with vacant eyes as I tried to explain the value of document structure
:)

I have every CSS property I can think of set to try to eliminate this space,
and it persists.

any help appreciated,
John




From rob at dieseldesign.com  Fri Nov  9 17:29:25 2001
From: rob at dieseldesign.com (Robert Stewart)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:29:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] H2 padding in NN
Message-ID: <81DA652CF2E9D744AE1F92E4C01F28F50FEEEF@beast.dieseldesign.com>

Line-height should cover it.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Corry [mailto:john at neoncowboy.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:21 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] H2 padding in NN

Is there any way to get rid of the ~10px that NN is inserting beneath my
H1
& H2 tags?
http://www.hawaiianromance.com/new%20site

The client doesn't like the way it looks. I watched in pain as she
stared
back with vacant eyes as I tried to explain the value of document
structure
:)

I have every CSS property I can think of set to try to eliminate this
space,
and it persists.

any help appreciated,
John


---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From gregory.john.toland at census.gov  Fri Nov  9 17:41:28 2001
From: gregory.john.toland at census.gov (gregory.john.toland at census.gov)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:41:28 2001
Subject: [thelist] A Good CSS Tips Newsletter?
Message-ID: <OF2E70077D.DD23D26A-ON85256AFF.0081FBEE@tco.census.gov>

Thanks to Shirley and James for the links!!!!!

Gregory J Toland
Sr. Systems Architect
CHM, Inc.
(301) 457-8058
tolan002 at census.gov

From: "Shirley Kaiser, SKDesigns" <skaiser1 at skdesigns.com>

>Does anyone know of a good CSS Tips Newsletter or email list?

Hi, Gregory,

There are a couple of exceptional newsgroups for CSS where some terrific
CSS gurus hang out and generously contribute so much time and fabulous
responses.

In addition to listing newsgroups and mailing lists, I've put together
annotated links to many of the best CSS tutorials, tips, charts,
workarounds, etc. at WebsiteTips.com that I've come across (or that people
have submitted) here, which may be helpful, too:
http://www.websitetips.com/css/

Here's the direct link to the newsgroups it lists what I mentioned above:
http://www.websitetips.com/css/#newsgroups

I don't know of CSS-specific email discussion lists or newsletters at the
moment, but I'd love to know of some, too. As soon as I learn of some I'll
list them at WebsiteTips.com's CSS section, too.

Shirley

---------------------------------------
From: "MRC" <webmaster at equilon-mrc.com>

The W3C hosts several lists on various web-related topics [1], including
one for css [2]. They are frequented by industry heavies, who occasionally
provide insight into why their products interpret the specifications as
they
do. However, I should warn that these are *not* intended as "how-to" or
tips
lists (e.g., "How do I make ul elements blue in Netscape 4.x?" would not be
an appropriate question); they are technical discussion lists that can
become very esoteric, and may induce drowsiness (so don't operate heavy
machinery while reading them). I suggest that anyone who is considering
subscribing to those lists first peruse a week or two of their archives to
see whether they are still interested.

James Aylard

1. http://www.w3.org/Mail/Lists.html
2. http://www.w3.org/Mail/Lists.html#www-style





From nonzero at well.com  Fri Nov  9 17:45:24 2001
From: nonzero at well.com (Kevin D. White)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:45:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] finding children
Message-ID: <00ba01c16978$d9df5a10$a5a931d0@marchfirstslc.com>

Quick question about finding all the child windows of a main parent window.

I am currently designing a routing & approval application for my clients.
The goal is to allow them to browse a site and attach comments to any page
on the site.  The comments are captured in a seperate window that is spawned
by the routing application.  No real problem there as long as the site
sticks to one window.  But what happens if the site spawns a daughter
window?  I need to be able to capture comments for the daughter window
seperate from the main site window.  This means I need to be able to find
all the child windows without explictly being told that they even exist.

Long story, short -> Is there an array/collection that allows me to discover
all the children of a parent from a seperate and independent window if I
know the name of the parent.....
________________________________
Kevin D. White
email: nonzero at well.com
im: simpleCypher
icq: 135180984




From eol1 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 17:50:05 2001
From: eol1 at yahoo.com (Eöl)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:50:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
In-Reply-To: <B8115EBF.13A9%paul@thereformist.com>
Message-ID: <20011109235206.76221.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>

Paul,

To fix this, you need to go back to the
<satire>good</satire> old days of browser specific
coding.

To replace align="center", this should work <div
style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"></div>,
needless to say, in m$ enlightened standard compliant
wisdom they fail to implement this.  In IE, you have
to use a <div style="text-align: center;"></div> which
then would center all elements (including block)
within the tag.  Issues with this is a)its wrong
b)NS/Moz will implement this correctly and only center
your non-block elements. 

So the fix that works in both browsers (using <table>
as an example, trying to center on the screen):

<div style="text-align: center;"> #For IE
<table style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;
text-align: left;">#For compliant browsers.  Also this
moves the text(or nonblock elements) within the table
to justify left (otherwise the <div> will make Moz
center the text within the table)
</table>
</div>

Cheers and hope this helps,

E?l
 
--- Paul Peterson <paul at thereformist.com> wrote:
> Can anybody enlighten me on how to effectively
> replace 'align=center' (in
> DIVs, H1s, TDs, etc.) with a CSS1 control? I've
> scoured all the references I
> have but could only find a 'text-align' property,
> which only seems to apply
> to text within an element rather than the element
> itself. This is confusing
> me, because there is a 'vertical-align' property
> which DOES affect entire
> elements.
> 
> Am I mistaken, or am I still stuck with a deprecated
> attribute to achieve
> what I want?
> 
> Paul (trying to be "Mr. Standards-Compliant")
> Peterson
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From gregory.john.toland at census.gov  Fri Nov  9 18:02:21 2001
From: gregory.john.toland at census.gov (gregory.john.toland at census.gov)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:02:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Automatically Printing Web Pages
Message-ID: <OFCBEFC6BE.625D3E7C-ON85256AFF.0082807C@tco.census.gov>

I would like to do this thru the http protocol.  Directory browsing is
turned on.  I want the user to be able to add to a "bucket" all files
he/she chooses thru using wildcards (AB*.htm) and a browse button.  I need
the software to support server-side include files and style sheets which
are imbedded in the files.  I cannot use Windows Explorer because of these
requirements.

>Our task is to print over 3,200 html files w/o having to click 3,2000
>times.  I would like to print selected files from a directory in a batch
>run.  Any ideas?

What kind of interface are you using to do this? Do you want the printing
done locally (i.e. the user has access to the windows shell and can
right-click files in a directory to print them), or do you want this done
through a browser interface?

I don't know of any off-the shelf software to do this, but this task sounds
like it would be best served with a simple VB program. All you need is a
dialogue to select the files, then pass them one at a time to the print
queue.

Have you tried just using the find files utility in windows, then doing
select-all, print?

Seb.




From gregory.john.toland at census.gov  Fri Nov  9 18:05:30 2001
From: gregory.john.toland at census.gov (gregory.john.toland at census.gov)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:05:30 2001
Subject: [thelist] Automatically Printing Web Pages
Message-ID: <OF59F9AB4A.CE32E2A6-ON85256AFF.008265B3@tco.census.gov>

I downloaded and installed the software.  A requirement that I am looking
for is not to add each file individually, but thru using wildcards
(AB*.htm) add them all at once.  This software forces you to type each file
individually (3,200 URL's).  Thanks for the suggestion though!

Greg


From: Susan Wallace <susanhw at webcastle.com>

Hi Gregory,

A quick search at Dave Central for "print web site" brings up this program:

http://www.davecentral.com/projects/autoprint/

Described as "AbacusPrint will automatically print any group of web pages
or documents on a schedule". There may be others to look at on the site.

Good luck,

Susan Wallace

>Last week, I asked if anyone knew of software (or thru scripting) of a way
>to print web pages in batch.





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov  9 18:43:28 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:43:28 2001
Subject: Backing up Registry ... was Re: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110000258.00af7460@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <033d01c16981$41927720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Madhu Menon" <webguru at vsnl.net>



| May I recommend you download an excellent utility called Regcleaner and
| have it run a "clean" cycle on your registry. (It's in Tools > Registry
| Cleanup > Do them all.)
| I'm sure you will weed out LOTS of crap that has been accumulating over
| time as programs didn't uninstall properly, etc. Trust me. It's like
| cleaning out the attic.
|
| Download it here:
| http://www.vtoy.fi/jv16/RegCleaner.exe

Downloaded it ... but

|
| Oh, and do backup your registry first, just in case ;)


How does one go about backing up the registry?   Win98 here (1st. ed.).
Help shows two options:
To have ARCserv agent back up your registry.
To have Backup Exec Agent back up your registry.

Are either of these the option?  They seem to be more for if you are
reinstalling windows.

Rather be safe than sorry... hehehe

Michele
(P.S.  I gave a free tip this morning .. hehehe)





From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov  9 18:46:08 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:46:08 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
Message-ID: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy>

> I don't want spreadsheets, gifs and pdfs or executables to be
> displayed in, or launched by the browser, I want them to download.

hi frank

zip file


rudy




From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov  9 18:46:16 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:46:16 2001
Subject: [thelist] Another Personal Site Critique
Message-ID: <01c16981$5d12dee0$3651149a@rudy>

>http://peterszaro.com

hi peter

not nuts about splash screens, thanks for at least having an Enter link to
get me in

home page looks okay, but the greeting made me laugh --

    Hello! (154.20.78.218 )

i *was* gonna cut & paste that from your page to here, but what's this?
can't highlight text?  what have you done?  hey!!!  i can't right-click to
view source?

oh peter, tsk, tsk -- just for that, i stole your little printer icon

anyhow, the next page i tried was Links, and ya know what?  it never
finished loading

so i hit Stop and then View>Source (from the menu), but what's this?  too
large for notepad?  what the heck have you got in there? uh oh, you better
have a look at the source, something seriously wrong, i see hundreds of
lines that look chopped off

went to Contact and got another chuckle -- you show 3 phone numbers, 2
emails, PGP, vCard, ICQ, AIM, contact form, and a partridge in a pear tree,
and then you say "When it comes to tracking me down, one must be persistent
and patient."   heh

Site Contents down the left match neither your nav items across the top nor
the text links across the bottom

i don't like the status bar clock, it hides the urls that your links are
pointing to

besides, if i need to know what time it is, i don't imagine i'll be coming
back to your site just for that, i got an analog thingie on my wrist that
is a lot faster -- plus, you gotta think of the subconscious message you
are sending people with that status bar clock:  LOOKIT ALL THE TIME YOU'RE
WASTING ON THIS SITE,  TICK, TICK, TICK...

so that's all i have time for

i hope this wasn't too harsh


rudy







From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov  9 18:51:48 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:51:48 2001
Subject: Backing up Registry ... was Re: [thelist] Win98 html page as background
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110000258.00af7460@203.197.12.4> <033d01c16981$41927720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <005c01c16981$e7a989f0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Start | Run | Regedit | Registry | Export Registry

DON'T doubleclick this file later to see what's in it ;) It reinstalls
faster than me grabbing a pint from the bartender. Ain't no 'Are you sure?'
for that one.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michele Foster" <michele at wordpro.on.ca>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: Backing up Registry ... was Re: [thelist] Win98 html page as
background
[ . . . ]
> How does one go about backing up the registry?   Win98 here (1st. ed.).
> Help shows two options:
> To have ARCserv agent back up your registry.
> To have Backup Exec Agent back up your registry.
>
> Are either of these the option?  They seem to be more for if you are
> reinstalling windows.
>
> Rather be safe than sorry... hehehe
>
> Michele
> (P.S.  I gave a free tip this morning .. hehehe)
>




From pkaulbak at idirect.ca  Fri Nov  9 19:06:51 2001
From: pkaulbak at idirect.ca (Peter Kaulback)
Date: Fri Nov  9 19:06:51 2001
Subject: Backing up Registry ... was Re: [thelist] Win98 html page
  as background
In-Reply-To: <033d01c16981$41927720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110000258.00af7460@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011109195643.01e5d1b0@mail.idirect.ca>

At 07:47 PM 11/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Madhu Menon" <webguru at vsnl.net>
>
>
>
>| May I recommend you download an excellent utility called Regcleaner and
>| have it run a "clean" cycle on your registry. (It's in Tools > Registry
>| Cleanup > Do them all.)
>| I'm sure you will weed out LOTS of crap that has been accumulating over
>| time as programs didn't uninstall properly, etc. Trust me. It's like
>| cleaning out the attic.
>|
>| Download it here:
>| http://www.vtoy.fi/jv16/RegCleaner.exe
>
>Downloaded it ... but
>
>|
>| Oh, and do backup your registry first, just in case ;)
>
>
>How does one go about backing up the registry?   Win98 here (1st. ed.).
>Help shows two options:
>To have ARCserv agent back up your registry.
>To have Backup Exec Agent back up your registry.
>
>Are either of these the option?  They seem to be more for if you are
>reinstalling windows.
>
>Rather be safe than sorry... hehehe
>
>Michele
>(P.S.  I gave a free tip this morning .. hehehe)

To back up your registry go to Start / Run and type in regedit to open the 
registry editor, then go to registry in the menu and choose export registry 
and save it with a unique name.  I also recommend EasyCleaner from ToniArts 
http://www.toniarts.com/ecleane.htm as it is very good for every windows 
operating system I've used.  Check out all the applications there too, 
everything is very useful and freeware too.

Peter Kaulback




From paul at thereformist.com  Fri Nov  9 19:35:01 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Fri Nov  9 19:35:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
In-Reply-To: <01c1694e$d0d3edc0$3651149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <002101c16988$7609b160$88260a18@frndl1.wa.home.com>

Thanks guys for your assistance. Honestly, I feel even more confused now
about the "right" way to replace 'align=center'...doesn't seem like there's
a comparably easy one, what with inheritance, buggy browsers, and margins
all having their respective say in the matter.

Guess I'll be coding in "old school" mode for a while longer. Ah well,
that's okay--I haven't yet seen a 3-column layout done sans-table that I
would want to implement anyways (due to overlapping DIVs and other
weirdness), so I'll continue being Mr. Transitional.

Paul




From g1notami at zoominternet.net  Fri Nov  9 19:46:11 2001
From: g1notami at zoominternet.net (D.Bruce Saurer)
Date: Fri Nov  9 19:46:11 2001
Subject: [thelist] Horizontal element alignment with CSS1
References: <002101c16988$7609b160$88260a18@frndl1.wa.home.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c16989$c934c7c0$657ba8c0@zoominternet.net>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Peterson" <paul at thereformist.com>

>--I haven't yet seen a 3-column layout done sans-table that I
> would want to implement anyways (due to overlapping DIVs and other
> weirdness), so I'll continue being Mr. Transitional.
> 
> Paul

Have a look at  http://bluerobot.com/web/layouts/layout3.html


bruce
g1notami at zoominternet.net
 





From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov  9 19:48:26 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov  9 19:48:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
Message-ID: <001501c16989$f60eb6c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Okay, it's a page check, not a site check (early days.) The redesign is
underway, and they're FINALLY letting me code it instead of sending it out
(of course, they threatened to have 'one of the marketing folks' do it with
FrontPage, then changed (lost?) their minds at the last minute.)

The existing site: http://www.magisnetworks.com
A new beginning: http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002

I'm only coding, but I have the ear of the look-and-feel folks (but they
might not listen.)

I'm specifically looking for:
1. Coding errors - my goal is absolute cross-browser/platform/gender/culture
code. I may eventually have to deviate from this lofty goal, but for now, be
as picky as you can. Extra points for citing sources to support your claims.
2. Look and feel - according to the CEO/CTO/BOD the existing site is
'sissy.' Note that the new site uses exactly the same colors and open, airy
feel, so I don't think we've addressed that issue yet. Ideas? What colors
are less fluffy and sensitive, but would work with the logo colors (oh look;
the site USES the logo colors - CEO/CTO/BOD don't like the logo either, but
maybe it could be hidden in a robust, manly site?)
3. Font sizing tips for NN/Opera on *nix (see below)

What I've done:
1. Validated with W3C's HTML validator
2. Tested in IE6 and NN6 on both PC and Mac. Looks like it should.
3. Tested in NN6 and Opera on Linux. Made me gag. Closed the browser.
"Nothing to see here, folks; move along."

Thanks, gang.

spinhead






From framar at interlog.com  Fri Nov  9 19:48:40 2001
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Fri Nov  9 19:48:40 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
In-Reply-To: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy>
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>

>zip file

That would have been my first choice, but I encounter the following factors:

1) End users are idiots. No exceptions. They may be idiots because 
they're tired, distracted, uneducated, in a hurry, unsophisticated, 
etc... My job is to make it so that even an idiot can use my programs 
without messing them up.

2) A zip file can be created by the user, or by a program on the 
server. We don't have the budget for cfx tags (for both PC and Linux 
to boot). That leaves the user. The clients we cater to, smart as 
they may be in the real world are idiots. Less than two days ago, a 
client spoke the following words to me: "A zip file? Do I need to buy 
a zip drive for that?"

I could (and will) give instructions on how to download a file, but 
no one will read it. Those that do will ignore it. Those that don't 
will misunderstand it. Then they will complain about the idiot 
programmer who wrote this piece of junk. That, quite simply is the 
way of things. It's for this reason that I'm a bullet proofing zealot.

With the high caliber of people on this list, it's easy to forget 
that there are people who still need instructions on how to close a 
browser window, or how to copy something to the clipboard.

Another story: My neighbour ordered cable for his dad. The cable guy 
came by, hooked him up and left. A few days later, he called his son. 
This internet stuff is pretty boring. I don't get it. After about 20 
minutes of asking questions, it turns out that not only was the 
father's cable not activated, but that he was rooting around the hard 
drive though the open dialog box in MS Word, thinking it was 'The 
Internet'. A very nice man. Charming man. And an idiot.

I guess that was a rant. Oh well, I was in the mood. I owe.
-- 

Our best destiny, as planetary cohabitants, is the development
of what has been called "species consciousness" - something over
and above nationalisms, blocs, religions, ethnicities.


Frank Marion                      Framar Studios
frank at framarstudios.com           http://www.framarstudios.com



From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov  9 20:01:04 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov  9 20:01:04 2001
Subject: [thelist] SMTP/CDONTS trouble
References: <8A4FFB0EA1DE44488DBE6DCD0CA9E4A7079469@Mvex01.corp.telseon.com>
Message-ID: <003201c1698b$ca9927d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

A few thoughts:
Does it fail consistently, or occasionally? These notes assume consistently.

Is this internet, or intranet?

Are the permissions on the mailroot folder correct? Compare them to the
working machine.
In the IIS console, for the default SMTP Properties, check the 'Security'
tab. Do IUSR_machinename and IWAM_machinename (don't remember for certain
this one's necessary) have operator permission?
Click the 'Delivery' tab, then the 'Advanced' button. Under 'Fully-qualified
domain name:' do you have the machine name, or machinename.domain.com?
Is antivirus software on the machine? It can kill CDONTS mail and you'll
never know what happened.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Juarez" <mjuarez at telseon.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 2:15 PM
Subject: [thelist] SMTP/CDONTS trouble


> Hi,
>
> Wondering if anyone can help me with my SMTP/CDONTS trouble. Here's the
> problem:
>
> I have a new Win2K server, with virtual SMTP server installed, standard
> stuff. Although my CDONTS script processes requests, the SMTP server
> seems unable to relay messages. Instead, messages are kept in the Queue
> folder of the mailroot directory. Looking in the Badmail directory, I
> find the following error:
>
> Unable to deliver this message because the follow error was encountered:
> "Error is processing file in pickup directory.".
>
> The specific error code was 0xC00402CE
>
> I assume there are some configuration problems with respect to the
> virtual SMTP server, and not a CDONTS script problem. I should note that
> the CDONTS script works fine on my development server, which runs the
> same OS as the one giving me trouble.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> MJ
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>




From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov  9 20:05:14 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov  9 20:05:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy> <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <003c01c1698c$57c598f0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

> >zip file

Better yet, self-extracting zip-file. End user doesn't need WinZip (you pay
for WinZip, right? It's only $29, and you use it almost every day. If you
use plain zip files, they might use WinZip forever without ever buying it,
and then you'd feel guilty.) Also, the 'exe' filename extension guarantees
the download dialog will fire. Works if your left-click, right-click, or,
for Mac users, big-fat-button-click.

spinhead





From chris at fuzzylizard.com  Fri Nov  9 20:25:56 2001
From: chris at fuzzylizard.com (Chris Johnston)
Date: Fri Nov  9 20:25:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] OT: Good Linux/Red Hat lists like Evolt?
Message-ID: <000501c16990$079aff10$be82fea9@cr283847a>

Hello,

I am wondering if there are any really good Linux and/or Red Hat lists
out there that are of the same caliber as Evolt? Meaning equally suited
for newbie's and gurus alike.

Thanks,
/chris

And now for a quick tip
<tip type="Programming" Language="Java">
For anyone who is looking to learn programming and would like to learn
the Java programming language, here is an exceptional textbook to help
you on your way.

Computing Concepts with Java2 Essentials.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471346098/qid=1005359079/sr=8-2/
ref=sr_8_19_2/102-7601079-0165757

(watch wrap)

It teaches the concepts of computer programming and algorithms using the
Java 2 language as its medium. It also teaches object oriented
programming in a way that is understandable. It is not a full blown text
on Java, however, it is a solid introduction into the world of
programming.
</tip>




From mg at markgroen.com  Sat Nov 10 00:07:45 2001
From: mg at markgroen.com (Mark Groen)
Date: Sat Nov 10 00:07:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy> <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <006e01c169ad$fef1c240$6501a8c0@cr10746a>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank" <framar at interlog.com>
Subject: Re: [thelist] http download problems

from rudy:

> >zip file

That would have been my first choice also, hmmm

> etc... My job is to make it so that even an idiot can use my programs
> without messing them up.
>
Have you seen what M$ is doing lately with its .not/XP tie in? I was at
my Dad's(65+) over the weekend, and as we were getting the download (we
were also upgrading to IE + OE 6)  for the new Instant Messenger (free,
appeals to the Dutch in him and we can "talk" cheap to Holland), a nifty
window popped up when mousing over the download button on this page:
http://messenger.msn.com/download/download.asp?client=1
The mouse over generated pop up ( it's animated), really caught his eye,
and he said, "let's do it the way they say to do it"....which was to run
the .exe from its current location rather than save it on the desktop.
Regardless, this was just an update to a program they already had
installed, but with the *proper* flow of screens/pages, couldn't a user
be directed to close all the windows/programs open and install
something/anything from the server? In other words -the file you are
pushing? People kind of have a tendency to keep clicking along what ever
path they have started/trusted, regardless if it's a good or bad thing
and continue until they have some new software to (intuitively we hope),
play with, or their computer crashes.
    Totally agree with your logic regarding the newbies/CEO's out there
tho', might be worth checking out how AOL handles this sort of goof
proofing, kind of see the state of the art in dealing with this sort of
user, if you know what I mean.

still tutoring and learning myself,

Mark.
www.markgroen.com
mg at markgroen.com
604-780-6917
Vancouver, Canada

<tip type="freeware">
Need to shrink files by 2/3 - and don't own a credit card? Create your
own .zip files using HJ-Zip
http://freebyte.com/hjzip/
</tip>







From framar at interlog.com  Sat Nov 10 00:30:19 2001
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Sat Nov 10 00:30:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
In-Reply-To: <006e01c169ad$fef1c240$6501a8c0@cr10746a>
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy>
 <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>
 <006e01c169ad$fef1c240$6501a8c0@cr10746a>
Message-ID: <p05001904b8127a05c39e@[24.43.66.191]>

>  People kind of have a tendency to keep clicking along
>  what ever path they have started/trusted, regardless if
>  it's a good or bad thing and continue until they have
>  some new software to (intuitively we hope), play with,
>  or their computer crashes.

Interesting observation. The back of my mind had noticed it, but I've 
never heard it articulated.

>  Totally agree with your logic regarding the
>  newbies/CEO's out there tho', might be worth checking
>  out how AOL handles this sort of goof proofing, kind of
>  see the state of the art in dealing with this sort of
>  user, if you know what I mean.

That's also a good idea. I'm all for stealing concepts. If it works 
well for one, if properly implemented, why not another?


-- 

Our best destiny, as planetary cohabitants, is the development
of what has been called "species consciousness" - something over
and above nationalisms, blocs, religions, ethnicities.


Frank Marion                      Framar Studios
frank at framarstudios.com           http://www.framarstudios.com



From pw015a7918 at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Nov 10 02:08:59 2001
From: pw015a7918 at blueyonder.co.uk (rabs)
Date: Sat Nov 10 02:08:59 2001
Subject: [thelist] Campaign Web Sites
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011108125625.02989008@mail.imaginuity.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c16979$f53783e0$8f9c1e3e@l6m7q4>

www.faxyourmp.com


http://www.urban75.com
,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Dyer" <ben_dyer at imaginuity.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:59 PM
Subject: [thelist] Campaign Web Sites


> Tried some standard Google searches on this, but I don't seem to be
getting
> anywhere.
>
> Anybody know of any good political campaign web sites out there, in terms
> of design and/or content.  Doesn't matter about party, office, win/lose,
> over/in progress, even different countries is fine (not just U.S.),
> etc.  Just looking for some good concepts/designs/ideas to use for a
> potential client.
>
> And only for the actual people who are running, not political party sites,
> not supporters, not independent pro sites, etc.
>
> Thanks, guys.
>
> --Ben
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
> http://www.imaginuity.com/
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>           Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sat Nov 10 05:01:01 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sat Nov 10 05:01:01 2001
Subject: [thelist] IIS tip
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110162608.00a9d9f8@203.197.12.4>

For those poor souls who're breaking their heads over why IIS doesn't work 
properly in Win2K Pro, here's a tip:

<tip type="IIS problems on Win2K pro" author="Madhu Menon">

Running ZoneAlarm on your Win2K Pro PC can cause conflicts with IIS. The 
WWW Publishing service can forever get stuck in "Starting" mode, and you 
may not be able to see your local web site.

The solution is to make sure that the ZoneAlarm TrueVector service (vsmon) 
starts only after the WWW Publishing service has started. You do this by 
editing the registry to make the vsmon service dependant on the W3SVC. 
You'll need Regedt32 (not Regedit) for this.

Full details (with screenshots) are available here:

http://www.iisfaq.com/Articles/335/

</tip>

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk  Sat Nov 10 07:54:23 2001
From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley)
Date: Sat Nov 10 07:54:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] OT: Good Linux/Red Hat lists like Evolt?
In-Reply-To: <000501c16990$079aff10$be82fea9@cr283847a>
References: <000501c16990$079aff10$be82fea9@cr283847a>
Message-ID: <20011110132634.2005634e.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 21:33:06 -0500
"Chris Johnston" <chris at fuzzylizard.com> wrote:


> I am wondering if there are any really good Linux and/or Red Hat lists
> out there that are of the same caliber as Evolt? Meaning equally
> suited for newbie's and gurus alike.

I wouldn't say that they're the same calibre as evolt (impossible
surely!) but redhat run a quite a few lists themselves that it may be
worth investigating:

https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/

The list for the current release of Redhat Linux 7.2 (Enigma) is here:

https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/enigma-list


<tip type="Link checking on Linux" author="Garrett Coakley">

If you need a way to check links on web pages under linux, have a look
at linkchecker:

http://linkchecker.sourceforge.net/

Features include:
 - recursive checking
 - multithreading
 - output in colored or normal text, HTML, SQL, CSV or a sitemap
   graph in GML or XML.
 - HTTP/1.1, HTTPS, FTP, mailto:, news:, nntp:, Gopher, Telnet and local
   file links support
 - restriction of link checking with regular expression filters for URLs
 - username/password authorization for HTTP and FTP
 - robots.txt exclusion protocol support

Handy tool to have in your arsenal.

</tip>

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/
PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/



From nopun at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 10 10:55:35 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Sat Nov 10 10:55:35 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
References: <INTM-94887-447983-2001.11.10-08.07.40--nopun#bellsouth.net@lists.wdvl.com>
Message-ID: <006301c16a08$fff7d840$7399fea9@tyme>

I have a program (Popper Stopper) for handling pop-up windows.  It allows
you to use CTRL+click-on-link to activate the pop-up window, on demand --
won't allow a pop-up otherwise.

I'd be interested to have a program that would force a new window to open
(ideally % smaller) from a _normal_ link, on demand.  [I like to run off and
read 3rd party info. but hate leaving a website (parent window) before I am
completely finished using it (such as a portal).]  I know that you can set
browser to open all links in a new window, but I want more control than
that.

Now, I don't want to write this little application, as I suck at Javascript,
but wondering how do-able it is, or if it has been done.  Any ideas?

Just in case OT...

<tip type="databases" author="Tyme">
Allow a null value for the first name field in a database input form or at
least allow the "-" (hyphen) character in the last name field.  The latter
will accommodate those individuals who legally have a hyphenated name _and_
enable those individuals with a single-word name to enter a "space-holder"
character for the last name. ...Design your databases for what is _legal_
not for what is most traditional.
</tip>





From russgri at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 10 11:03:42 2001
From: russgri at bellsouth.net (Russell Griechen)
Date: Sat Nov 10 11:03:42 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy> <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>
Message-ID: <000d01c16a09$cb50bac0$73601442@oemcomputer>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank" <framar at interlog.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
"A zip file? Do I need to buy
> a zip drive for that?"
>
, thinking it was 'The
> Internet'. A very nice man. Charming man. And an idiot.
>
> I guess that was a rant. Oh well, I was in the mood. I owe.

Yes, you do owe.....
Such snobbery I've never seen.
We go to doctors, dentists, automobile mechanics and web designers for the
services and insight into things we do not understand.
Yes we ask stupid questions to stupid web designers and when he directed
this question to you he hit the target.

Russell Griechen





From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 10 16:00:54 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 10 16:00:54 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
Message-ID: <01c16a31$d99d7000$3651149a@rudy>

>Now, I don't want to write this little application, as I suck at
Javascript,
>but wondering how do-able it is, or if it has been done.  Any ideas?


hi tyme

yup, doable, and if nobody beats me to it, it will be a bookmarklet

excellent tip, by the way -- any database designer worthy of the name will
know not to make both first and last name mandatory, so i guess the only
question is, should the mandatory field be first or last?

rudy




From hassan at webtuitive.com  Sat Nov 10 16:49:37 2001
From: hassan at webtuitive.com (Hassan Schroeder)
Date: Sat Nov 10 16:49:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
References: <01c16a31$d99d7000$3651149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <3BEDAF7B.CAC385FB@webtuitive.com>

rudy wrote:

> excellent tip, by the way -- any database designer worthy of the name will
> know not to make both first and last name mandatory, so i guess the only
> question is, should the mandatory field be first or last?

Aren't "first name / last name" a Western standard? If we use the 
terms "given name" and "surname" it's more universally applicable.

My impression is that there are places where people go by a given 
name without using a surname, but not the other way around.

But then, I'm not an, er, uh, someone who studies names, whatever 
they're called :-)

-- 
H*
Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- hassan at webtuitive.com 
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

    -- creating dynamic Web sites and applications since 1994 --



From john at neoncowboy.com  Sat Nov 10 17:11:13 2001
From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry)
Date: Sat Nov 10 17:11:13 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
In-Reply-To: <006301c16a08$fff7d840$7399fea9@tyme>
Message-ID: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAAEEOEFAA.john@neoncowboy.com>

|I'd be interested to have a program that would force a new window to open
|(ideally % smaller) from a _normal_ link, on demand.  [I like to
|run off and
|read 3rd party info. but hate leaving a website (parent window) before I am
|completely finished using it (such as a portal).]  I know that you can set
|browser to open all links in a new window, but I want more control than
|that.

I like to open links in a new windwo too, I use the right-click menu in IE
to achieve this...
 right click on link > open link in new window

:)
jpc




From g1notami at zoominternet.net  Sat Nov 10 17:24:53 2001
From: g1notami at zoominternet.net (D.Bruce Saurer)
Date: Sat Nov 10 17:24:53 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
References: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAAEEOEFAA.john@neoncowboy.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c16a3f$3e60cde0$657ba8c0@zoominternet.net>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Corry" <john at neoncowboy.com>

> I like to open links in a new windwo too, I use the right-click menu in IE
> to achieve this...
>  right click on link > open link in new window
>
> :)
> jpc

Shift+click will get you there as well

bruce
g1notami at zoominternet.net





From tr3ks at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 10 17:30:17 2001
From: tr3ks at yahoo.com (James Sabin)
Date: Sat Nov 10 17:30:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] css class style changes?
Message-ID: <20011110233225.21911.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com>

is it possible to dynamically change a class style?

what I have is a list of items, ....1 <span
class="s">2</span> 3 4 5 <span class="s">6</span> 7 8
9.... and I have a link that will make the change (if
possible) something like this: <a href="javascript:
void(document.all.s.style.fontWeight='bold');">
problem is I can't figure out the reference to
classes. I can change the stylesheet, or change an
ID's style attributes. Is it possible to change a
class css attribute directly, and how can I do this?

thank you!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From tr3ks at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 10 17:57:51 2001
From: tr3ks at yahoo.com (James Sabin)
Date: Sat Nov 10 17:57:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] css class style changes?
Message-ID: <20011110235959.92051.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com>

we figured it out. the styleSheet object contains the
rules[] array which exposes the classes and other
style rules so you can manipulate them.

here is an example:

<html><head><title>Schedule Test</title>
<style>
  .you{font-weight:normal}
  .me {font-weight:normal}
</style>
<script>
  function setFontWt()
{document.all.you.style.fontWeight='bold'}
  function setFontWt2() {
   
document.styleSheets[0].rules[1].style.fontWeight='bold'
 
    document.styleSheets[0].rules[1].style.color='red'
 
  }
</script>
</head>
<body>
<a href="javascript:setFontWt()">bold the ID</a> <br>
<a href="javascript:setFontWt2()">bold class</a> <br>
<p>  <span id="you">RA</span>                         
 
<p>  <span class="me">ZW</span>
<p>  <span class="me">ZW</span>
<p>  <span class="me">ZW</span>
<p>  <span class="me">ZW</span>
<p>  <span class="me">ZW</span>
</body>
</html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From bradlcd at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 10 18:11:23 2001
From: bradlcd at btinternet.com (Brad! Brooks)
Date: Sat Nov 10 18:11:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] CSS to create a curve
Message-ID: <B8137346.29501%bradlcd@btinternet.com>

> OK, I know this is a mighty tall order, but I'm wondering if anyone has
> ever seen an effective use of tables or DIV's to create a curve? I don't
> mean a sliced up image, I mean literally a curve constructed only of
> table cells, or DIV's. I would want to do this so that the color of the
> curve could be changed via CSS. Any help would be appreciated even if
> it's just to laugh at my pipe dream :)

Hi Matt,

I don't know whether anybody has pointed this out to you, but Eric Meyer has
created an example of using CSS to create a curve on his great experimental
CSS pages. Check it out:

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/curvelicious/demo.html

Actually, now I look at it, it's probably not much help to you (it uses a
sliced image), but it may give you another angle to work from...

Best,

Brad! (List newbie)
-- 
Brad Brooks
Freelance Design & Publishing Services
for Print, Web, Multimedia & the 9th Art
bradlcd at btinternet.com
Tel/Fax: +44 (0)20 8567 9755
Mobile: +44 (0)79 0500 2883




From pkaulbak at idirect.ca  Sat Nov 10 19:13:32 2001
From: pkaulbak at idirect.ca (Peter Kaulback)
Date: Sat Nov 10 19:13:32 2001
Subject: [thelist] Another Personal Site Critique
In-Reply-To: <NLEPJMCFDFOCLGJAAOKNCEBCIBAA.lists@szaroconsulting.com>
References: <001501c16963$84da6ab0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011110194948.01f0b350@mail.idirect.ca>

At 05:09 PM 11/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello Everyone!
>I have recently joined this list as would appreciate any input on my
>personal website. I'd appreciate some constructive criticism on layout,
>colors, and organization. The site is primarily designed for future
>employers, family and friends. Feel free to sign the guestbook! :-)
>
>Browser, Resolution, OS, Connection speed?
>
>http://peterszaro.com
>
>Thank you in advance for your time and effort!
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~
>Peter

Nice form and it loads ok on 56k, and the right click code doesn't work 
with Opera either though there is an awful lot of white space in the source 
taking up a lot of the load time along with all the preloads too.  The 
links page is very very wide, and the certs page is wide as well.

Peter Kaulback




From webdesign1 at irubin.com  Sat Nov 10 22:23:51 2001
From: webdesign1 at irubin.com (Roee Rubin)
Date: Sat Nov 10 22:23:51 2001
Subject: [thelist] Image Gallery
Message-ID: <LDEPIJINJHOPDCLEIDPAIEDHDEAA.webdesign1@irubin.com>

Hello,

I am looking for an open source image gallery system. I have seen an array
of projects available on sourceforge and would appreciate any input or
recommendations.


Thanks.

Roy
roee at irubin.com





From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 10 22:40:17 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 10 22:40:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
Message-ID: <01c16a6b$3b065440$3651149a@rudy>

> I'd be interested to have a program that would force a new window to
> open (ideally % smaller) from a _normal_ link, on demand.  [I like to
> run off and read 3rd party info. but hate leaving a website (parent
> window) before I am completely finished using it

tyme, there's a page at bookmarklets.com that describes multi-window
surfing

   http://bookmarklets.com/about/topics/multiwin.html

and there are bookmarklets to:

            Target Links to New
            Target Links to Special
            Target Links to Top
            Target Links to Self

        Description:
        These allow you open all the links on a page in a new window
        without having to repeatedly select this option from your
        (right-click) menu; an aid for multi-window surfing. Specifically,
        they control the  targeting of the links by sending them to:
             New: each link opens in a different new window.
             Special: every link opens in the same (special) new window.
             Top: used in frames to force the links to open in the full
                     browser window.
             Self: restores the default behavior (links open in the full
                     browser window,  or in the same frame.)

see http://bookmarklets.com/tools/navigation/index.phtml


rudy






From framar at interlog.com  Sat Nov 10 23:29:39 2001
From: framar at interlog.com (Frank)
Date: Sat Nov 10 23:29:39 2001
Subject: [thelist] http download problems
In-Reply-To: <000d01c16a09$cb50bac0$73601442@oemcomputer>
References: <01c1697d$52a5a360$3651149a@rudy>
 <p05001903b812337e2fd2@[24.43.66.191]>
 <000d01c16a09$cb50bac0$73601442@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <p05001901b813b75e5be4@[24.43.66.191]>

>>  I guess that was a rant. Oh well, I was in the mood. I owe.

As promised, and hopefully relevant as well <g>.


<tip type="Netiquette" author="Frank Marion">

The list maintains it's high quality based on the fact that it's 
participants are high caliber people, with with a large range of 
skills. Another factor is that participants tend to keep a high 
signal to noise ratio.

When posting something to the list, it may be useful to keep the 
following questions in mind:

1) Do your words clearly and concisely express your idea?
2) Does your email relate to the core topic of this list?
3) Is your email useful to the other members of the list?

When posting something that could be considered off-topic, consider 
biasing the content towards the above three points. Remember that 
your words may evoke an unexpected variety of responses from people, 
choose your words carefully. If you experience a response that may 
not fit with the above three points, consider responding personally, 
off list to the posting individual.

</tip>
-- 

Our best destiny, as planetary cohabitants, is the development
of what has been called "species consciousness" - something over
and above nationalisms, blocs, religions, ethnicities.


Frank Marion                      Framar Studios
frank at framarstudios.com           http://www.framarstudios.com



From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 10 23:38:19 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Sat Nov 10 23:38:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
In-Reply-To: <001501c16989$f60eb6c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <20011111054029.57477.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

> 2. Look and feel - according to the CEO/CTO/BOD the existing
> site is
> 'sissy.' Note that the new site uses exactly the same colors
> and open, airy
> feel, so I don't think we've addressed that issue yet. Ideas?
> What colors
> are less fluffy and sensitive, but would work with the logo
> colors (oh look;
> the site USES the logo colors - CEO/CTO/BOD don't like the logo
> either, but
> maybe it could be hidden in a robust, manly site?)

This item scares the h*ll out of me. I notice a conspicuous
absence of Chief Marketing Officer or Marketing Director or
_something_ in the CxO titles you mention whom "...think the site
is sissy..." 

Why does this scare me? Let's look at it from the opposite
perspective: if Magis were on the drawing board with a new
broadband chip, they would _never_ have the Marketing Officer
calling the shots, would they? Now, some input from the CMO would
be welcomed from an end-user/integrator/vendor requirements
standpoint, but these things would have already been incorporated
by the Product Development team, right? The CMO wouldn't come in,
look at the schematics and say "man, that signal path looks
really inefficient... let's get something more streamlined going
on there." The Engineers, Product Developers and Project Managers
would probably toss him out and take away his cardkey.

My point is that different experts do different things. Your
executive team should work in collaboration with your marketing
team to do some real discovery of what your target (Consumers?
VARs? Hardware Mfg?) demographic and psychographic is really
shaped like. Does the CTO understand the subtleties of color and
shape and how they subconsciously affect the value proposition of
the product and company? Usually not. Just like how a Marketing
manager doesn't usually know about chip fab specifics. While each
must be conversant in the other's discipline, they have titles
for a reason: to denote domain expertise.

Looking at the existing website, a designer obviously built the
corporate identity and integrated the site design around it in a
consistent manner. This can't be the first time the executive
team has noticed their identity. Did the designer present the
corporate id with a rational defense? There was a specific reason
he/she proposed the lowercase workmark, pastel pallette, and
consumer-friendly photography in the first place, and obviously
it resonated well with the executive team at least *once*. So
what's changed? Did they see a competitor's site that was in red
and black with an ALL CAPS wordmark logo -- embossed in brushed
aluminum? What's driving the 'sissy' reaction?

These aren't rhetorical statements, either... I'd really LOVE to
know what is motivating your bosses in re their comments.
[thelist] is beneficial not only for site critique of work we're
all building, but also to discover what prompts a redesign in its
early stages... so we can all do a better job of hitting the nail
on the head *before* shredding it in critique.

Best,

/rg

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 11 00:05:20 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 00:05:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Backing up Registry
In-Reply-To: <20011111014302.3DE5BC027@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111112641.00af2530@203.197.12.4>

At 07:13 AM 11/11/2001, you wrote:
>Start | Run | Regedit | Registry | Export Registry

Yeah, what he said.

I'd like to add a warning. If you've been editing your registry of late, 
the last key will automatically be selected. If you now do an export, it 
will default to exporting only the tree that's *highlighted*. In the export 
file dialog box, make sure that the "Export range" radio button is set to 
"All".


>DON'T doubleclick this file later to see what's in it ;) It reinstalls
>faster than me grabbing a pint from the bartender. Ain't no 'Are you sure?'
>for that one.

It's been a while since I used Win98, so I can't remember, but Win2K (which 
is a much better OS to run) asks for confirmation.

If what Joel says is true, it would be a good idea to rename the exported 
file from something.reg to something.txt so that you can't crucify yourself 
later ;)
I backup my registry every week (better safe than sorry - My current 
registry is 37 MB after meticulous cleaning).

Make sure you name it something obvious. I date and time stamp mine in the 
file name (e.g., "Registry export 11-11-2001 1130 AM")

Madhu
Professional registry hacker


<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 11 00:17:45 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 00:17:45 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
In-Reply-To: <20011111014302.3DE5BC027@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111114338.02e4f318@203.197.12.4>

>yup, doable, and if nobody beats me to it, it will be a bookmarklet

Ha ha! Too late, Rudy. Somebody's done that for a while now. It's part of 
my links bar, and I picked it up from BookMarklets.com (go to: 
http://www.bookmarklets.com/tools/navigation/index.phtml and scroll to the 
bottom of the page)

Here's the code:

javascript:function c6pHL6RrF(w){var 
i,k,T,L;for(i=0;i<w.length;i++)c6pHL6RrF(w.frames[i]);L=w.document.links;for(k=0;k<L.length;k++){T=L[k].target;if(!T||T=='_self'||T=='_top'||T==w.name||T=='Special')L[k].target='_blank'}};c6pHL6RrF(top)


Say, I have a links bar full of useful bookmarklets for web developers that 
I've picked up from various places. Would that be a good article, you think?

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From paul at thereformist.com  Sun Nov 11 00:29:02 2001
From: paul at thereformist.com (Paul Peterson)
Date: Sun Nov 11 00:29:02 2001
Subject: [thelist] 3-column layout with CSS (was: RE: Horizontal element alignment with CSS1)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c16989$c934c7c0$657ba8c0@zoominternet.net>
Message-ID: <002201c16a7a$ba8642c0$88260a18@frndl1.wa.home.com>

> > I haven't yet seen a 3-column layout done sans-table that I
> > would want to implement anyways (due to overlapping DIVs and other
> > weirdness), so I'll continue being Mr. Transitional.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Have a look at  http://bluerobot.com/web/layouts/layout3.html
>
> bruce

Exactly my point. I can't stand the overlapping content that occurs on the
site below when the browser window is narrowed considerably. I prefer table
cells, because they shrink but stay separate.

Paul

<tip type="Pull-down Style Switcher" author="Paul Peterson">
Want to add a pull-down menu to your page that allows users to select
different styles? First read this article at A List Apart:
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/alternate/. Then download their
styleswitcher.js file and add it to your site. Finally, customize and paste
this code into your page:

<form action="[URL]">
  <select size="1" onchange="setActiveStyleSheet(value);">
    <option>Select a style:</option>
    <option value="default">[label]</option>
    <option value="[value1]">[label1]</option>
    <option value="[value2]">[label2]</option>
  </select>
</form>

</tip>




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 11 06:16:05 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 06:16:05 2001
Subject: [thelist] Pizza Hut Takes a Bite Out of Yahoo! Front
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111174505.00aeb938@203.197.12.4>

http://www.internetnews.com/IAR/article/0,,12_919471,00.html

These are desperate times indeed. Pizza Hut will place a "takeover" ad on 
Yahoo.

<quote>

The Flash-based rich media ad shows a pizza-laden pizza peel (the wooden 
"paddle" used to lift pizzas in and out of an oven) popping out of the 
middle of the Yahoo! home page. Pepperonis rain down on the pizza, which 
then zooms across the screen to land in an ad unit on the right-hand side 
of the page, in Yahoo!'s Marketplace area.

Clicking on the ad's "Click for recipes" icon sparks a Flash slideshow of 
different version of the pizza -- Ultimate Cheese Lover's, Ultimate Meat 
Lover's, Ultimate Pepperoni Lover's and Ultimate Veggie Lover's -- and a 
special promotional price, $8.99 for a medium pie.

</quote>

*sigh* Just makes you want to run out and buy that Pizza, doesn't it?

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From AAA at AAA.COM  Sun Nov 11 08:19:57 2001
From: AAA at AAA.COM (AAA Printing)
Date: Sun Nov 11 08:19:57 2001
Subject: [thelist] RE: AAA Printing - Dirt cheap canadian printing (416) 404-4444
Message-ID: <1005488556.210@sympatico.ca>

CALL US FOR YOUR NEXT QUOTE

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WE'LL BEAT ANY OTHER QUOTE BY 10 %

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(416) 404-4444




From cache at dowebs.com  Sun Nov 11 10:04:38 2001
From: cache at dowebs.com (Keith)
Date: Sun Nov 11 10:04:38 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111114338.02e4f318@203.197.12.4>
References: <20011111014302.3DE5BC027@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BEE3FA9.3218.329E35@localhost>

> Say, I have a links bar full of useful bookmarklets for web developers
> that I've picked up from various places. Would that be a good article,
> you think?

Excellent idea Madhu. Maybe the article should invite others to add 
their bookmarklets as their comments to your article. Bookmarklets 
are very useful, especially for developers. www.bookmarklets.com 
is a good place for someone to get started with bookmarklets, evolt 
would be a good place to continue....

keith



From joel at spinhead.com  Sun Nov 11 10:21:26 2001
From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Sun Nov 11 10:21:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
In-Reply-To: <01c16a31$d99d7000$3651149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <000201c16acd$4cb477a0$6401a8c0@eratosthenes>

Mebbe use your front-end code to check that at least ONE is NOT NULL, rather
than doing it in the db?

joel

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of rudy
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 1:51 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand

[ . . . ]


hi tyme

[ . . . ]

excellent tip, by the way -- any database designer worthy of the name will
know not to make both first and last name mandatory, so i guess the only
question is, should the mandatory field be first or last?

rudy





From joel at spinhead.com  Sun Nov 11 10:36:56 2001
From: joel at spinhead.com (Joel D Canfield)
Date: Sun Nov 11 10:36:56 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
In-Reply-To: <20011111054029.57477.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c16acf$775f8dd0$6401a8c0@eratosthenes>

Excellent points, so take this as further explanation, not a rebuttal.

The existing site was designed by marketing pros under the watchful eye of
our Director of Marketing. She and the VP of Marketing are driving and
managing the redesign. What we end up with will be a marketing blessed
product. The CTO and CEO pretty much stay out of the way and let Marketing
do their job. However, we're still a small company, and these two guys (the
founders, geniuses, and all-around nice guys) are important to all of us who
work here, so if it's possible to create something that meets the
appropriate marketing needs without offending their [admittedly limited]
color/design sense, that's what we want.

So, direct short answer: the CTO and CEO are merely expressing personal
opinion which they expect to be taken as just that. The marketing and design
folks are merely trying to take their comments into account as far as it
WON'T affect good marketing principle.

Thanks for helping clarify this. It's important to me to get meaningful
feedback, and this really woulda muddied the waters.*

Joel at spinhead.com

* Muddy Waters' real name was McKinley Morganfield.

-----Original Message-----
From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Robert Goodyear
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 9:40 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: Re: [thelist] site check -
http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html


Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

> 2. Look and feel - according to the CEO/CTO/BOD the existing
> site is
> 'sissy.' Note that the new site uses exactly the same colors
> and open, airy
> feel, so I don't think we've addressed that issue yet. Ideas?
> What colors
> are less fluffy and sensitive, but would work with the logo
> colors (oh look;
> the site USES the logo colors - CEO/CTO/BOD don't like the logo
> either, but
> maybe it could be hidden in a robust, manly site?)

This item scares the h*ll out of me. I notice a conspicuous
absence of Chief Marketing Officer or Marketing Director or
_something_ in the CxO titles you mention whom "...think the site
is sissy..."

Why does this scare me? Let's look at it from the opposite
perspective: if Magis were on the drawing board with a new
broadband chip, they would _never_ have the Marketing Officer
calling the shots, would they? Now, some input from the CMO would
be welcomed from an end-user/integrator/vendor requirements
standpoint, but these things would have already been incorporated
by the Product Development team, right? The CMO wouldn't come in,
look at the schematics and say "man, that signal path looks
really inefficient... let's get something more streamlined going
on there." The Engineers, Product Developers and Project Managers
would probably toss him out and take away his cardkey.

My point is that different experts do different things. Your
executive team should work in collaboration with your marketing
team to do some real discovery of what your target (Consumers?
VARs? Hardware Mfg?) demographic and psychographic is really
shaped like. Does the CTO understand the subtleties of color and
shape and how they subconsciously affect the value proposition of
the product and company? Usually not. Just like how a Marketing
manager doesn't usually know about chip fab specifics. While each
must be conversant in the other's discipline, they have titles
for a reason: to denote domain expertise.

Looking at the existing website, a designer obviously built the
corporate identity and integrated the site design around it in a
consistent manner. This can't be the first time the executive
team has noticed their identity. Did the designer present the
corporate id with a rational defense? There was a specific reason
he/she proposed the lowercase workmark, pastel pallette, and
consumer-friendly photography in the first place, and obviously
it resonated well with the executive team at least *once*. So
what's changed? Did they see a competitor's site that was in red
and black with an ALL CAPS wordmark logo -- embossed in brushed
aluminum? What's driving the 'sissy' reaction?

These aren't rhetorical statements, either... I'd really LOVE to
know what is motivating your bosses in re their comments.
[thelist] is beneficial not only for site critique of work we're
all building, but also to discover what prompts a redesign in its
early stages... so we can all do a better job of hitting the nail
on the head *before* shredding it in critique.

Best,

/rg

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 11 10:50:17 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 11 10:50:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
Message-ID: <01c16ad0$edcd96a0$3651149a@rudy>

>Ha ha! Too late, Rudy.

same back atcha, madhu, you will see i posted the link to those
bookmarklets well before you did    ;o)

> Would that be a good article, you think?

echoing keith, yes a great idea to continue the effort begun by
bookmarklets.com at evolt, especially considering that some of the
bookmarklets.com ones used to but no longer work in ie4, and the site seems
to have gone, um, stale

we have plenty of javascript gurus here (among which i do not count myself,
so my contributions will be few and my assistance in debugging limited)

here's one i picked up somewhere -- can't recall where, it wasn't
favelets.com, who have a similar one but it's only for macs and easily over
2000 char

this pops up a new window to display the styles in effect on a page --

javascript:var
mywin=window.open('','','location=no,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes');var
mydoc=mywin.document;mydoc.open('text/plain');if(document.scripts.length>0)
for(var
i=0;i<document.styleSheets.length;i++)mydoc.write('\n'+document.styleSheets
[i].cssText+'\n');else mydoc.write('No stylesheets on this
page!');mydoc.title='Stylesheets for '+mywin.location.href;mydoc.close();

doesn't seem to work on all sites but it does work on evolt.org

oh, and does anybody know where the table border toggle javascript
originally came from?  it's been posted and tipped here on thelist a couple
of times, and it would help this poor guy out --

  http://www.kaipahl.de/brain/web_producer_tips_bookmark.html
    (in german)

he apologizes several times for reproducing it without credit, so grab the
border toggle bookmarklet there if you don't already have it, or search for
it in evolt's tip harvester

rudy

"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy"
 - Benjamin Franklin




From sbraun at rugged.com  Sun Nov 11 11:13:37 2001
From: sbraun at rugged.com (Sylvia Braunstein)
Date: Sun Nov 11 11:13:37 2001
Subject: [thelist] Templates vs. Libraries or Server-side includes
Message-ID: <3BEEB250.2EF8A67A@rugged.com>

My website is built on templates because many sections repeat. It is
quite easy to update but I have to republish all the dependent html
pages (many) every time a small change is performed. Had it been frames,
I could have republished the frame only.
I am currently looking into the library and Server-Side includes
options.
What is the recommended way to deal with this problem? Does any of the
above options (library or Server-Side) allow to publish one file only
and it would automatically be updated (as it would with frames)?
What are the advantages and inconvenients of each method? I understand
that Server-Side makes the site slower while the server updates the
pages.

Your advice is highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Sylvia




From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 11 11:21:17 2001
From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
Date: Sun Nov 11 11:21:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] css class style changes?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F103FKQRwgF0Z900004821@hotmail.com>


>we figured it out. the styleSheet object contains the
>rules[] array which exposes the classes and other
>style rules so you can manipulate them.

However, the rules[] array is IE only, NN (and IE on Mac) requires 
cssRules[]. See http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/index.html?changess.html for 
the proper cross-browser code.

ppk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 11 11:36:17 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 11 11:36:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] Templates vs. Libraries or Server-side includes
Message-ID: <01c16ad7$96373d40$3651149a@rudy>

> I understand that Server-Side makes the site slower while
> the server updates the pages.

hi sylvia

that's absolutely true, but at the same time my guess is that on a
competent server, the overhead is measured in milliseconds

compare this to trip time, the time it takes the assembled page to transit
the internet and arrive at the user's computer, and i'll bet that server
side includes increase trip time by approx 0.00001% -- i.e. next to
nothing, as they used to say in physics class...

have a look at the ssi links on shirley's websitetips page --

  http://www.websitetips.com/ssi/index.html

templates are fine but if you change a template, you still have to change
all the pages that were published with it, so in my opinion the ssi concept
is the only way to go

when i say the "ssi concept" i mean that it's not necessary to use the
specific apache ssi syntax if you have some other server side scripting
language like php, asp, cold fusion, perl, etc...


rudy






From nopun at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 11 11:42:46 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Sun Nov 11 11:42:46 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
References: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAAEEOEFAA.john@neoncowboy.com> <001d01c16a3f$3e60cde0$657ba8c0@zoominternet.net>
Message-ID: <004101c16ad8$c3a2ef80$7399fea9@tyme>

----- Original Message -----
From: D.Bruce Saurer <g1notami at zoominternet.net>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Corry" <john at neoncowboy.com>
>
> > I like to open links in a new windwo too, I use the right-click menu in
IE
> > to achieve this...
> >  right click on link > open link in new window
> >
> > :)
> > jpc
>
> Shift+click will get you there as well

TYME} I had a feeling there was something very simple already at my
disposal.  Thank you for enlightening me.



<tip type="favicon" author="Tyme">
Add a favicon.ico to your website directories if only to avoid the log
error.  If Client has not requested/specified a graphic to use, create your
own favicon.ico that serves as a thumbprint to sites that you created.

See: http://www.dynamicdrive.com/newsletter/issue9.htm#3 for using a
favorite icon when you do not have root access.
</tip>





From nopun at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 11 12:22:25 2001
From: nopun at bellsouth.net (Tyme)
Date: Sun Nov 11 12:22:25 2001
Subject: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand
References: <01c16a31$d99d7000$3651149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <006101c16ade$4deac500$7399fea9@tyme>

----- Original Message -----
From: rudy <r937 at interlog.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] links --> new windows on demand


> ... any database designer worthy of the name will
> know not to make both first and last name mandatory,

TYME} Mind telling that to the (U.S.) credit bureaus, Social Security
Administration, credit card companies, ...


<tip type="conditional_comments" author="Tyme">
Conditional Comments (CC) are a handy tool for including or excluding code
for Netscape 4+ or IE5+ without necessarily using javascript.  See:
http://www.dynamicdrive.com/newsletter/issue8.htm (IE5+) and issue9.htm
(NN4+) for more information.

Example:

<!--[if IE 5]>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="!advanced.css" media="all" />
<![endif]-->

<!--&{document.layers!=null};
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="!basic.css">
-->

</tip>





From pmeeks at email.msn.com  Sun Nov 11 12:33:14 2001
From: pmeeks at email.msn.com (Pat Meeks)
Date: Sun Nov 11 12:33:14 2001
Subject: [thelist] Templates vs. Libraries or Server-side includes
References: <3BEEB250.2EF8A67A@rugged.com>
Message-ID: <000801c16adf$d8c624c0$994983d0@shadow>

Sylvia:

> Does any of the above options (library or Server-Side) allow to publish
one file only
> and it would automatically be updated (as it would with frames)?
> What are the advantages and inconvenients of each method? I understand
> that Server-Side makes the site slower while the server updates the
> pages.

Hmmm, my site only has about 400 pages, so I don't how my site compares to
yours.

I don't use DW templates at all. I found them difficult to use when they
contained links. I specifically moved to DW to use the Library feature for
my menus and footers (or any repeating section with links). Using Library
items for menus was simpler for me because it made the links easy to deal
with. I did find that at slower connection speeds, having the menus as
Library items did help the pages load a little faster than having them as
includes (a top priority). Since I mainly use Library items for menus,
footers, etc., I don't often make changes, and when I do, to me, it doesn't
take that long. However, for sections that change frequently and contain few
(if any) links, I use includes. There is no reason you can't use a variety
of methods, choosing the best approach for each situation.

HTH, Pat pmeeks at msn.com





From rob_goodyear at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 11 12:43:20 2001
From: rob_goodyear at yahoo.com (Robert Goodyear)
Date: Sun Nov 11 12:43:20 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
In-Reply-To: <000301c16acf$775f8dd0$6401a8c0@eratosthenes>
Message-ID: <20011111184534.99225.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>

Joel:

Sounds like you've got it all under control! For some very broad
pointers on 'beefing it up a bit', you might consider doing a
color study based on the existing pallette by increasing the
saturation but not changing the hue of those pastels, and then
working in some harder edges on some of the holding shapes. For
example, everything could be more rectilinear and not
round-cornered, which would evoke a more aggressive stance, as
well as some one-point rules as delineators between functional
areas. Consider washing the entire background in a color other
than white... that'll 'bring it down from the clouds' a bit:
bleed the color off the browser, rather than floating colored
content within a white wrapper (border/margin.)

Disclaimer to [thelist] readers: design is extremely subjective
and extremely scientific at the same time. It's a real paradox.
Cultural influences are about the only thing that is scientific
about design, yet often is borne of practical intuition. So my
comments in this reply to Joel are just that: my
seat-of-the-pants comments. I am not making sweeping statements
about design, moreover some specific suggestions in re this site
which is marketing to a specific user.

Typographically, the nav elements look like they're currently
using an egyptian or slab-serif font, which is a bit retro/arch.
Consider a swiss sans-serif variant for that. (Univers, Helvetica
Neue, Futura, Formata, Frutiger, Gill Sans, Avenir, Meta, DIN
Neuzeit et al.)

You could slap the existing logo into these color and typographic
changes without any sort of visual disconnect at all, and perhaps
please both camps at Magis.

Keep us posted! It should be interesting to see what evolves! 

/rg

--- Joel D Canfield <joel at spinhead.com> wrote:
> Excellent points, so take this as further explanation, not a
> rebuttal.
> 
> The existing site was designed by marketing pros under the
> watchful eye of
> our Director of Marketing. She and the VP of Marketing are
> driving and
> managing the redesign. What we end up with will be a marketing
> blessed
> product. The CTO and CEO pretty much stay out of the way and
> let Marketing
> do their job. However, we're still a small company, and these
> two guys (the
> founders, geniuses, and all-around nice guys) are important to
> all of us who
> work here, so if it's possible to create something that meets
> the
> appropriate marketing needs without offending their [admittedly
> limited]
> color/design sense, that's what we want.
> 
> So, direct short answer: the CTO and CEO are merely expressing
> personal
> opinion which they expect to be taken as just that. The
> marketing and design
> folks are merely trying to take their comments into account as
> far as it
> WON'T affect good marketing principle.
> 
> Thanks for helping clarify this. It's important to me to get
> meaningful
> feedback, and this really woulda muddied the waters.*
> 
> Joel at spinhead.com
> 
> * Muddy Waters' real name was McKinley Morganfield.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Robert
> Goodyear
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 9:40 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] site check -
> http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
> 
> 
> Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!
> 
> > 2. Look and feel - according to the CEO/CTO/BOD the existing
> > site is
> > 'sissy.' Note that the new site uses exactly the same colors
> > and open, airy
> > feel, so I don't think we've addressed that issue yet. Ideas?
> > What colors
> > are less fluffy and sensitive, but would work with the logo
> > colors (oh look;
> > the site USES the logo colors - CEO/CTO/BOD don't like the
> logo
> > either, but
> > maybe it could be hidden in a robust, manly site?)
> 
> This item scares the h*ll out of me. I notice a conspicuous
> absence of Chief Marketing Officer or Marketing Director or
> _something_ in the CxO titles you mention whom "...think the
> site
> is sissy..."
> 
> Why does this scare me? Let's look at it from the opposite
> perspective: if Magis were on the drawing board with a new
> broadband chip, they would _never_ have the Marketing Officer
> calling the shots, would they? Now, some input from the CMO
> would
> be welcomed from an end-user/integrator/vendor requirements
> standpoint, but these things would have already been
> incorporated
> by the Product Development team, right? The CMO wouldn't come
> in,
> look at the schematics and say "man, that signal path looks
> really inefficient... let's get something more streamlined
> going
> on there." The Engineers, Product Developers and Project
> Managers
> would probably toss him out and take away his cardkey.
> 
> My point is that different experts do different things. Your
> executive team should work in collaboration with your marketing
> team to do some real discovery of what your target (Consumers?
> VARs? Hardware Mfg?) demographic and psychographic is really
> shaped like. Does the CTO understand the subtleties of color
> and
> shape and how they subconsciously affect the value proposition
> of
> the product and company? Usually not. Just like how a Marketing
> manager doesn't usually know about chip fab specifics. While
> each
> must be conversant in the other's discipline, they have titles
> for a reason: to denote domain expertise.
> 
> Looking at the existing website, a designer obviously built the
> corporate identity and integrated the site design around it in
> a
> consistent manner. This can't be the first time the executive
> team has noticed their identity. Did the designer present the
> corporate id with a rational defense? There was a specific
> reason
> he/she proposed the lowercase workmark, pastel pallette, and
> consumer-friendly photography in the first place, and obviously
> it resonated well with the executive team at least *once*. So
> what's changed? Did they see a competitor's site that was in
> red
> and black with an ALL CAPS wordmark logo -- embossed in brushed
> aluminum? What's driving the 'sissy' reaction?
> 
> These aren't rhetorical statements, either... I'd really LOVE
> to
> know what is motivating your bosses in re their comments.
> [thelist] is beneficial not only for site critique of work
> we're
> all building, but also to discover what prompts a redesign in
> its
> early stages... so we can all do a better job of hitting the
> nail
> on the head *before* shredding it in critique.
> 
> Best,
> 
> /rg


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com



From mwallace at bindview.com  Sun Nov 11 13:31:10 2001
From: mwallace at bindview.com (Wallace, Mark)
Date: Sun Nov 11 13:31:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] Macromedia Installers aren't.
Message-ID: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287302A4327A@BVMAIL>

Hey, guys - I'm still unable to install Macromedia's entire Cold Fusion 5.0
product line (three separate installers) and/or Homesite 5.0 on a couple of
NT servers due to what looks like a bug in their Installshield script - 

To keep this from being a massive post, here's the situation so far,
including what I've tried:
http://www.bindview.com/MMSupport/

Their support tech thinks I need to pay them for a support incident now, and
he's apparently done - he no longer responds to my emails. Problem is, I had
to BEG for funds to buy the products in the first place - I just don't have
a budget to fix other companies' software development issues.

What am I missing here? Can anyone think of any troubleshooting/debugging
steps that I'm leaving out?

Incidentally, Ultradev installs without a hitch on both systems. Guess it's
a matter of priorities, huh?

Mark Wallace
Webmaster
BindView Corporation



From jedimaster at macromedia.com  Sun Nov 11 15:38:23 2001
From: jedimaster at macromedia.com (Raymond Camden)
Date: Sun Nov 11 15:38:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Macromedia Installers aren't.
In-Reply-To: <FF519BCFD682D311900600805FBB287302A4327A@BVMAIL>
Message-ID: <004e01c16afa$236b3000$6601a8c0@mylittledomain.internal>

> Their support tech thinks I need to pay them for a support 
> incident now, and
> he's apparently done - he no longer responds to my emails. 

You _shouldnt_ have to pay for the support if it turns out to be a real
bug. Since the vast majority of people have no issues installing (as far
as I know, if everyone buying our product couldn't install it, I think
it would be a major news item), this really does seem like just an issue
on your side.

Anyway, when you _do_ go to the paid tech support, when they investigate
the issue if they discover it really is a bug on our side, you don't get
charged. So if you are convinced that this is the case, just go to paid
tech support.



> Incidentally, Ultradev installs without a hitch on both 
> systems. Guess it's
> a matter of priorities, huh?

No, just different installation programs. I'm just a small cog at
Macromedia, but as far as I know, this isn't an anti-cf conspiracy. ;)

=======================================================================
Raymond Camden, Principal Spectra Compliance Engineer for Macromedia

Email    : jedimaster at macromedia.com
Yahoo IM : morpheus

"My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda 




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 17:08:24 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 11 17:08:24 2001
Subject: [thelist] site check - http://www.magisnetworks.com/new2002/index.html
In-Reply-To: <001501c16989$f60eb6c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIGEEGDJAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> 2. Look and feel - according to the CEO/CTO/BOD the existing site is
> 'sissy.' Note that the new site uses exactly the same colors and
> open, airy
> feel, so I don't think we've addressed that issue yet. Ideas? What colors
> are less fluffy and sensitive, but would work with the logo
> colors (oh look;
> the site USES the logo colors - CEO/CTO/BOD don't like the logo
> either, but
> maybe it could be hidden in a robust, manly site?)

I prefer the original.

The new one is of a low standard (IMHO). Absolutely nothing is aligned
giving it no strength whatsoever. Fonts are unnecessarily varied and it
lacks any boldness that the original achieved. If you're worried about
"sissy"ness, then I'd go back and rework the original slightly, rather than
continue with this new attempt.

What I'd do to the original:

 - dump the font used for "Here and now" and secondary navigation - ugh!
 - remove the tabs.
 - remove the GIF text on the blue background and just use normal text.
 - align the "News" title with what *was* GIF text, and remove the watermark
behind News/Events/Jobs.
 - put the footer across the bottom, left-aligned with the News heading.

That'd be a good start.


The new site is confused. You've got the oval shaped buttons derived from
the logo and the ugly mess of shapes behind "Here and now", the block
Air5(tm) picture, and then the rounded square "network diagram" shape. Add
in the green HR's, and it's in serious need of help.

Aligntment-nazi says: Here and now should align with the Air5 pic and the
footer. "Company" in the navigation should align with the News footer
element at the very least. The Magis name should right-align with "Jobs" in
the navigation.

I can't tell what the chipset is from the picture. Either provide a close-up
view/larger picture, or use something stylised (depending on your intended
audience).

That's all I have time for right now. Hope some of the comments help.



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From john at neoncowboy.com  Sun Nov 11 18:22:31 2001
From: john at neoncowboy.com (John Corry)
Date: Sun Nov 11 18:22:31 2001
Subject: [thelist] Image Gallery
In-Reply-To: <LDEPIJINJHOPDCLEIDPAIEDHDEAA.webdesign1@irubin.com>
Message-ID: <CGEAKIJJHPCINCPBHCDAOEFEEFAA.john@neoncowboy.com>

I just downloaded Gallery and tried it out on my development server...SLICK!

http://gallery.sourceforge.net

auto thumbnail generation, great image quality
zip file (that's right, how'd you like to upload *1* zip file instead of 27
jpegs?) support
no database...all filesystem
pretty easy to customize it
built in message board/ user comments

I was looking into a similar package recently and stopped looking when I
found this one.

jpc

|-----Original Message-----
|From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org
|[mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Roee Rubin
|Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 6:25 PM
|To: Thelist
|Subject: [thelist] Image Gallery
|
|
|Hello,
|
|I am looking for an open source image gallery system. I have seen an array
|of projects available on sourceforge and would appreciate any input or
|recommendations.
|
|
|Thanks.
|
|Roy
|roee at irubin.com
|
|
|
|---------------------------------------
|For unsubscribe and other options, including
|the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
|http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
|
|




From webdad at tampabay.rr.com  Sun Nov 11 19:01:23 2001
From: webdad at tampabay.rr.com (Bob Boisvert)
Date: Sun Nov 11 19:01:23 2001
Subject: [thelist] Leaving the list temporarily
Message-ID: <000701c16b17$14d4ba30$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>

Hello fellow members,

It's vacation time and I heading up North very soon. I was wondering, once I
unsubscribe from the list, will I be able to sign up again with the same
email address?. This list is one of the better ones I have found and would
hate to not be able to get back into it.

Bob

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.290 / Virus Database: 155 - Release Date: 10/23/01





From burhankh at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 11 19:41:09 2001
From: burhankh at hotmail.com (Burhan Khalid)
Date: Sun Nov 11 19:41:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Found  A Great Site
Message-ID: <F4742hBv1WnBTNTKI6b00001ad3@hotmail.com>

Hey Evolters :

  Surfin' the web lately, I stumbled upon <a 
href="http://www.youngpup.net">www.youngpup.net</a>. I was wondering, does 
anyone know how to create that oh-so-slick animated content thingy? Not the 
dial-a-menu on top (I figured that was flash), but if you click on any of 
the links, the way the main content is displayed is awesome.

Any idea? Looks like one hellacious javascript code.
Kudos to the designer.

I owe a tip.

Regards,
Burhan Khalid



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 11 20:00:41 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 11 20:00:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] Leaving the list temporarily
References: <000701c16b17$14d4ba30$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <00d601c16b1e$56014800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hi Bob,

<tip type="Suspending List Messages" author="Mishka>

You can temporarily stop delivery of thelist.  To do so, go to this page and
at the bottom, enter the email address you are subscribed to the list with,
and hit Edit Options:

http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist

On the next page, mid-way down the page, Turn on the first option, Disable
mail delivery.  Go to the bottom of the page, enter your password (the one
you used to subscribe to thelist), then choose Submit My Changes.

If you have forgotten your password, you can have it mailed to you from the
same page.
</tip>


HTH,

Michele


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Boisvert" <webdad at tampabay.rr.com>


| Hello fellow members,
|
| It's vacation time and I heading up North very soon. I was wondering, once
I
| unsubscribe from the list, will I be able to sign up again with the same
| email address?. This list is one of the better ones I have found and would
| hate to not be able to get back into it.





From cvos at netpaths.net  Sun Nov 11 20:08:26 2001
From: cvos at netpaths.net (Cayley Vos)
Date: Sun Nov 11 20:08:26 2001
Subject: [thelist] Re: Image Gallery
References: <20011112013105.60F65BFF1@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BEF2F99.33B02472@netpaths.net>

I use the gallery
http://www.menalto.com/projects/gallery/requirements.php

the link shows the requirements, the most important of which is PHP.  It
is awesome, and allows you to create different users with upload
privileges

--


Cayley Vos, Principal

360.714.8395 office
360.223.7799 cell

http://NetPaths.net
____________________________________________
web site design  |  programming  |  search engine marketing





From gnarly at punkass.com  Sun Nov 11 20:34:09 2001
From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson)
Date: Sun Nov 11 20:34:09 2001
Subject: [thelist] Leaving the list temporarily
References: <000701c16b17$14d4ba30$0200a8c0@BOISNET2>
Message-ID: <001601c16b1a$c3c51780$0100a8c0@olly>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Boisvert" <webdad at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: [thelist] Leaving the list temporarily


> It's vacation time and I heading up North very soon. I was wondering, once
I
> unsubscribe from the list, will I be able to sign up again with the same
> email address?. This list is one of the better ones I have found and would
> hate to not be able to get back into it.

You can turn mail delivery off temporarily by going to
http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist and putting your email
address in the box at the bottom. Then set "Disable Mail Delivery" to On,
type in your password, hit "Submit My Changes" et voila. Set it back to Off
when you come back.

Have a nice holiday,

Olly
- www.gnarly.f2s.com -





From thelist at cbizz.net  Sun Nov 11 21:00:10 2001
From: thelist at cbizz.net (profjj)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:00:10 2001
Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110162608.00a9d9f8@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <NCEIJIFGNJNBOHBNJFKHCENECOAA.thelist@cbizz.net>

Hi People,

What would be a good recommendation for a digital camera for web design, and
at the same time good enough quality for print?

Either specs to look for or recommendations from personal use.

Thanx in advance,

<tip type="ColdFusion" author="profjj">
Need to find all the fields from a particular cold fusion query.

<cfoutput>
TheQuery.columnlist
</cfoutput>

~ where "TheQuery" is the name of the query.
</tip>

profjj
http://www.cbizz.net





From seyon at delime.com  Sun Nov 11 21:03:41 2001
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:03:41 2001
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011111225448.00a41ec0@mail.delime.com>

Evening all, I'm looking for some help from some of you guys who 
undoubtedly know way more about SQL than I do. I'm afraid I'm a bit out of 
my depth here.

Here's the situation.

Four tables:
General Info - Name, etc and a unique ID,
Contact, Job, Education.

In each of the latter three, the entry is referenced by the same unique ID 
stored in General Info. So, for any given record, GenInfo.ID = Contact.ID = 
Job.ID = Education.ID

In a nutshell, I'm trying to select everything from each table for an 
entry, based on the Name. I've got as far as SELECT TableName.ColumnName 
(for each item) FROM List of tables. Not sure how the WHERE clause should 
be constructed.

If it matters, it's an ASP and MS Access system.

Many thanks.
-marc



From D.Maclennan at orbisglobal.com  Sun Nov 11 21:09:12 2001
From: D.Maclennan at orbisglobal.com (Damian Maclennan)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:09:12 2001
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required
Message-ID: <AB8450F3057E7D4B88DF1C814E62940A07C7A3@leonardo.productbank.com.au>

Hi Marc

After your FROM clause, you want to use some INNER JOIN clauses.

I.E.

FROM
GenInfo
INNER JOIN Contact ON Contact.Id = GenInfo.Id
INNER JOIN Job ON Job.Id = GenInfo.Id
INNER JOIN Education ON Education.Id = Education.Id

Some RDBMS systems require joins as you described it with the conditions
in the Where clause.
 I.E.
 From GenInfo, Contact, Job, Education
WHERE
Contact.Id = GenInfo.Id and
 Job.Id = GenInfo.Id and
Education.Id = Education.Id

But that is not ANSI syntax and is being depreciated. AFAIK MS Access
will only take the first option. MS SQL will do both, but it is better
to stick to the INNER JOIN syntax.

Hope that helps

Damian

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Seyon [mailto:seyon at delime.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:03 PM
To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required


Evening all, I'm looking for some help from some of you guys who 
undoubtedly know way more about SQL than I do. I'm afraid I'm a bit out
of 
my depth here.

Here's the situation.

Four tables:
General Info - Name, etc and a unique ID,
Contact, Job, Education.

In each of the latter three, the entry is referenced by the same unique
ID 
stored in General Info. So, for any given record, GenInfo.ID =
Contact.ID = 
Job.ID = Education.ID

In a nutshell, I'm trying to select everything from each table for an 
entry, based on the Name. I've got as far as SELECT TableName.ColumnName

(for each item) FROM List of tables. Not sure how the WHERE clause
should 
be constructed.

If it matters, it's an ASP and MS Access system.

Many thanks.
-marc

---------------------------------------
For unsubscribe and other options, including
the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org
Workers of the Web, evolt ! 



From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 11 21:16:19 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:16:19 2001
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011111225448.00a41ec0@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0111112210010.15024-100000@scooter.webservepro.com>

On Nov 11, Marc Seyon had something to say about [thelist] SQL help - I...

>Evening all, I'm looking for some help from some of you guys who 
>undoubtedly know way more about SQL than I do. I'm afraid I'm a bit out of 
>my depth here.
>
>Here's the situation.
>
>Four tables:
>General Info - Name, etc and a unique ID,
>Contact, Job, Education.
>
>In each of the latter three, the entry is referenced by the same unique ID 
>stored in General Info. So, for any given record, GenInfo.ID = Contact.ID = 
>Job.ID = Education.ID
>
>In a nutshell, I'm trying to select everything from each table for an 
>entry, based on the Name. I've got as far as SELECT TableName.ColumnName 
>(for each item) FROM List of tables. Not sure how the WHERE clause should 
>be constructed.

*IF* I understand your setup right, you want something like this:

SELECT g.foo, c.bar, j.silly, e.string
FROM GeneralInfo g, Contact c, Job j, Education e
WHERE g.ID=c.GenID
AND g.ID=j.GenID
AND g.ID=e.GenID
AND g.ID=[the id]

You don't have to alias them like that (in fact, many people will tell you
not to), but I'm lazy.

Now, since these are in different tables, you really don't have a 1-1
relationship here. IOW, an general info record can have many contact, job,
and education records. If that's the case, the above ain't going to work
for you and it get's a little nastier.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 21:20:21 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:20:21 2001
Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <NCEIJIFGNJNBOHBNJFKHCENECOAA.thelist@cbizz.net>
Message-ID: <CKEIJNPMACBAAGMEBNNIAEFBDJAA.isaac@members.evolt.org>

> Either specs to look for or recommendations from personal use.

I use a FujiFilm FinePix 4700z. You can read my review of it on this page
(scroll down):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TH2X



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From seyon at delime.com  Sun Nov 11 21:20:58 2001
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:20:58 2001
Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <NCEIJIFGNJNBOHBNJFKHCENECOAA.thelist@cbizz.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110162608.00a9d9f8@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011111230832.01da4f00@mail.delime.com>

At 11/11/2001 10:57 PM, you wrote:
>What would be a good recommendation for a digital camera for web design, and
>at the same time good enough quality for print?

Don't own one, but I've used an Olympus C-3030z and really enjoyed it. Very 
ergonomically friendly, small - fits snuggly in the palm of your hand. Only 
thing, big handed people may occasionally find themselves accidentally 
blocking the flash or lens.

Great picture quality - I've seen some printed pictures taken with it that 
were indistinguishable from developed photos. Very good storage capacity 
too. Last check, it was priced ~US$450.

The guy who I borrowed it from uses it to do professional photography as well.

It's definitely something on my Christmas list!

Not seeing a link to that specific model, but here's the C-3000z (slightly 
slower)
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_lobbypage.asp?l=1&p=16 
&bc=2&product=615

regards.
-marc



From seyon at delime.com  Sun Nov 11 21:26:17 2001
From: seyon at delime.com (Marc Seyon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 21:26:17 2001
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0111112210010.15024-100000@scooter.webservep
 ro.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011111225448.00a41ec0@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011111232347.01ea4ce0@mail.delime.com>

At 11/11/2001 10:17 PM, you wrote:
>On Nov 11, Marc Seyon had something to say about [thelist] SQL help - I...
>
> >In each of the latter three, the entry is referenced by the same unique ID
> >stored in General Info. So, for any given record, GenInfo.ID = Contact.ID =
> >Job.ID = Education.ID
> >
> >In a nutshell, I'm trying to select everything from each table for an
> >entry, based on the Name. I've got as far as SELECT TableName.ColumnName
> >(for each item) FROM List of tables. Not sure how the WHERE clause should
> >be constructed.
>
>*IF* I understand your setup right, you want something like this:
>
>SELECT g.foo, c.bar, j.silly, e.string
>FROM GeneralInfo g, Contact c, Job j, Education e
>WHERE g.ID=c.GenID
>AND g.ID=j.GenID
>AND g.ID=e.GenID
>AND g.ID=[the id]
>
>Now, since these are in different tables, you really don't have a 1-1
>relationship here. IOW, an general info record can have many contact, job,
>and education records. If that's the case, the above ain't going to work
>for you and it get's a little nastier.

Matt, these tables all will have 1-1 relationships. However there will be 
an additional table in the future which may have multiple records for a 
single ID.

How much nastier is "a little"?

Thanks.
-marc



From andre at gaulin.ca  Sun Nov 11 22:37:29 2001
From: andre at gaulin.ca (Andre Gaulin)
Date: Sun Nov 11 22:37:29 2001
Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110162608.00a9d9f8@203.197.12.4> <4.2.0.58.20011111230832.01da4f00@mail.delime.com>
Message-ID: <001001c16b34$cac23080$0100a8c0@DURON800>

Canon G2 is an amazing camera, especially if you are coming from a film/SLR
background.  Gives you tons of control and some amazing results.

Andre
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Seyon" <seyon at delime.com>
To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation


> At 11/11/2001 10:57 PM, you wrote:
> >What would be a good recommendation for a digital camera for web design,
and
> >at the same time good enough quality for print?
>
> Don't own one, but I've used an Olympus C-3030z and really enjoyed it.
Very
> ergonomically friendly, small - fits snuggly in the palm of your hand.
Only
> thing, big handed people may occasionally find themselves accidentally
> blocking the flash or lens.
>
> Great picture quality - I've seen some printed pictures taken with it that
> were indistinguishable from developed photos. Very good storage capacity
> too. Last check, it was priced ~US$450.
>
> The guy who I borrowed it from uses it to do professional photography as
well.
>
> It's definitely something on my Christmas list!
>
> Not seeing a link to that specific model, but here's the C-3000z (slightly
> slower)
>
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_lobbypage.asp?l=1&p=16
> &bc=2&product=615
>
> regards.
> -marc
>
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !




From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 11 22:51:15 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 11 22:51:15 2001
Subject: [thelist] SQL help - I think JOINing is required
Message-ID: <01c16b35$f4f01ce0$3651149a@rudy>

> Matt, these tables all will have 1-1 relationships. However there
> will be an additional table in the future which may have multiple
> records for a single ID.

hi marc

if they are 1-1 relationships, consider putting all the columns into one
table next time you design tables like this -- there is a performance
tradeoff, but it's probably immaterial unless you have millions of records,
but on the other hand, it's easier to write queries against one table than
four

> How much nastier is "a little"?

it isn't at all -- the 1-m query is identical

it's just harder to deal with the output, typically you'll want to "group"
the output by GenInfo ID

also, you probably want outer rather than inner joins, just in case there's
an unmatched record in one of the tables

for example, if you have

  general  contact  job  education
      g1           c1       j1         e1
      g2           c2       j2         e2
      g3           --         j3         e3
      g4           c4       j4         e4

then the query will return only rows 1, 2, and 4, even though there is a
general record g3

so change your query to

    from GenInfo
      outer join Contact on GenInfo.ID = Contact.ID
      outer join Job on GenInfo.ID = Job.ID
      outer join Education on GenInfo.ID = Education .ID

then if there are any contact, job, or education records missing, you'll
get nulls in the corresponding fields but the row will still be there

by the way, matt, one of the reasons i prefer the above syntax to the table
list syntax is because after i write

    from GenInfo, Contact, Job, Education
      where GenInfo.ID ???

i always have to go look up the syntax for the outer join, i can never
remember where that darned asterisk is supposed to go...

rudy






From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 11 22:59:52 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 22:59:52 2001
Subject: [thelist] Cool plugin (was: links --> new windows on
  demand)
In-Reply-To: <20011112013100.A4EC7BFC9@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112102615.02c5d0d0@203.197.12.4>

At 07:01 AM 11/12/2001, you wrote:
>this pops up a new window to display the styles in effect on a page --

Got something better, Rudolph. ;)

Have you downloaded the Stylesheet browser plugin for IE?

<quote>

This is an extension for Microsoft Internet Explorer versions 5. It allows 
you to right click and bring up a list of stylesheets used by the page. 
 From this list you can view the code, open up the stylesheets with your 
registered CSS application, toggle whether they are enabled/disabled, 
change them and add in new stylesheets of your choice.

</quote>

Highly recommended. You can download it at:
<http://www.nodntap.com/misc/stylesheet_browser.shtml>

I use it a *lot*. When some silly web site has 10px Verdana that I dislike, 
I just use this and change the size. Voila! It's great when you're looking 
at a site's design and think, "hmmm... what would happen if they increased 
the line height to 16px?".

HTH,

Madhu




<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 11 23:08:06 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 11 23:08:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Leaving the list temporarily
In-Reply-To: <20011112013100.A4EC7BFC9@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011112103745.02c60618@203.197.12.4>

At 07:01 AM 11/12/2001, you wrote:
>It's vacation time and I heading up North very soon. I was wondering, once I
>unsubscribe from the list, will I be able to sign up again with the same
>email address?. This list is one of the better ones I have found and would
>hate to not be able to get back into it.

Why bother unsubscribing? Just set your list options to vacation mode i.e., 
no mail till you get back. You'll remain subscribed but won't get any mail.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From zamba at zamba.com  Sun Nov 11 23:21:06 2001
From: zamba at zamba.com (Tony Page)
Date: Sun Nov 11 23:21:06 2001
Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <NCEIJIFGNJNBOHBNJFKHCENECOAA.thelist@cbizz.net>
Message-ID: <000701c16b3a$f18624a0$6401a8c0@dell>

Hi,
I'm a professional photographer using a range of cameras including
digital. Virtually any camera on the market will give you a passable
picture for normal web use, especially if you can use photoshop
afterwards! Print is another matter.
If you want real control and to keep alive the possibility of using your
shots for smallish print jobs (like in newsletters etc) then go for a 3
megapixel + camera. I use a Nikon 995 (cheaper now they have the new 5
megapixel one coming out) and know quite a few pros who use it as a
back-up to their D1X/Kodak760 etc. One good point about it is its
phenomenal close-up performance, ideal for eg jewellery. You can use
off-camera flash too. 
Check out http://www.steves-digicams.com/ for comparative reviews, and
there are links off that to other sites.
Any more questions, email me offlist...
Regards,
Tony Page


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org 
> [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of profjj
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:57 PM
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: [thelist] Digital Camera Recommendation
> 
> 
> Hi People,
> 
> What would be a good recommendation for a digital camera for 
> web design, and at the same time good enough quality for print?
> 
> Either specs to look for or recommendations from personal use.
> 
> Thanx in advance,
> 
> <tip type="ColdFusion" author="profjj">
> Need to find all the fields from a particular cold fusion query.
> 
> <cfoutput>
> TheQuery.columnlist
> </cfoutput>
> 
> ~ where "TheQuery" is the name of the query.
> </tip>
> 
> profjj
> http://www.cbizz.net
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: 
http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !