[thelist] Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Faye Tarzwell( FayeC))
Merchant, Linda
lmerchant at lganet.com
Tue Feb 26 10:01:01 CST 2002
yup!
Linda Garcia-Merchant
lmerchant at lganet.com
IT/New Business Development
Larry Gordon Agency, Inc.
233 N. Michigan Avenue, Suite 2120
312.540.5450
> -----Original Message-----
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> Subject: thelist digest, Vol 1 #2064 - 25 msgs
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: PWS as a Webserver (David Kutcher)
> 2. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Faye
> Tarzwell(FayeC))
> 3. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Matt)
> 4. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (stout at stoutstreet.com)
> 5. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (rudy)
> 6. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Jay Blanchard)
> 7. Re: Jakob Nielsen [was Anti-aliasing] (dan donaldson)
> 8. usability does not require charset info ? (Cristian Secara)
> 9. Re: PWS as a Webserver (Dave)
> 10. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Miriam Frost)
> 11. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Paul Backhouse)
> 12. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (Roger Newbrook)
> 13. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Michael Barrett)
> 14. Re: procmail spam filter (Kevin Martin)
> 15. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Alastair Murdoch)
> 16. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (Matt)
> 17. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (McCaw, Douglas *)
> 18. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (Fortune Elkins)
> 19. Putting a stock price on your site (Michael Galvin)
> 20. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> (NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com)
> 21. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long) (l a u r a *^* l y
> n c h)
> 22. Re: old versions of your favourite websites (Ben Dyer)
> 23. Re: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> (martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com)
> 24. RE: Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (Roger Newbrook)
> 25. RE: Jakob Nielsen [was Anti-aliasing] (Ben Dyer)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "David Kutcher" <david_kutcher at hotmail.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] PWS as a Webserver
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:36:17 -0500
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> <whisper>go php triad....</whisper>
>
>
> fadeout.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:25 -0500
> From: "Faye Tarzwell(FayeC)" <ftarzwell at fayec.com>
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I have to say that although I know my stuff I get terribly nervous
> during interviews...I usually do very well in written tests because that
> allows me to be very precise in my answers. The interviews I have been
> to felt like interrogations...I rather sit down and write a test on the
> specifics of the job.
> Don't take me wrong...I am good in a team environment...it's just the
> interview part that really freaks me out...so in my opinion a test would
> be more productive if an interviewer wanted to find out what I know....
>
> ><rant>
> >Over the course of the last year, we've had students from the local
> >college come to us looking for work, yet the only way they've been
> >taught to design is with the layer tools in dreamweaver. We've had
> >designers who believe the web is nothing more than sliced up
> photoshop, >seen more bad flash than you can shake a stick at, yet all
> these people >have got qualifications and have got jobs doing web design
> that I >couldn't get because I didn't 'do' web design.
> ></rant>
>
> <related rant>
> On the other hand people with good work experience but who don't have
> the right "qualifications (read diplomas)" have a hard time finding a
> job. Although I can't call myself a guru in programming I can say that I
> do have the right programming logic and learn fast just by seeing an
> example done. I do have 6 years experience in design and I did know all
> the answers to the questions Jay posted here but I still can't find a
> job because most of the jobs advertized here require a bachelor's degree
> in Computer science or something of the type...while I see graduates who
> have no idea what a DTD is or how to manually tweak their code to make
> is work properly get great jobs (which will eventually give them the
> real world experience) just because they have the right papers...
> </related rant>
>
>
> Just my 2¢,
> --
> Flavia Tarzwell (FayeC)
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:33:35 -0500
> From: Matt <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Organization: Lightbulb Press
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I have some pity for the people being tested though. In some instances,
> for
> instance defining the style of type, there is no one, "right" way to do
> it. To
> apply a style to a text you could:
>
> 1. Use an external style sheet
> 2. Use an internal style sheet, defined in the head
> 3. Use an inline style, defined within the tag
> 4. Use a FONT tag.
>
> I can imagine some bright-eyed and bushy tailed young college grads
> getting
> stressed over which solution the interviewer probably "wants" them to use.
> It's
> easy to say that one of the them is the "obvious" choice, but
> unfortunately,
> there are still no rock solid rules for the web, only strong
> recommendations.
> Who knows what their teachers told them. During a job interview, when
> stress
> levels are particularly high, they might choose the less than ideal
> solution,
> even if they knew how to implement one of the others.
>
> Which is not to say such a test is inappropriate, but maybe it would make
> sense
> to just ask them off the bat to do it in CSS, and not even leave the door
> open
> for their using the FONT tag. You'll still find out if they can handle it
> or
> not.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> Jay Blanchard wrote:
>
> > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not
> understand
> > this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
> > --
> > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > >Anyone worth their beans would have scored above a 70.
> >
> > >You're correct. I hope the point of my last email was understood. I
> only
> > >meant to say that I prefer a more fluid discussion than a question and
> > >answer session. I think it is easier on the applicant.
> >
> > >Josh
> >
> > There is (or should be) more than one interview with a candidate. If
> you're
> > lucky the test weeds out the first rounders from the second rounders. I
> have
> > interviewed where the first thing they did was test me and not waste any
> > time talking to candidates that were obviously below par. This is
> becoming
> > more and more popular in technoligical circles. In other places I have
> > talked to someone for 15 minutes and they signed the contract right
> then.
> >
> > As for sr. level developers, none applied for this generically titled
> job
> > ad. So perhaps the market is flooded with less-experienced persons right
> > now. All the sr. level people I know are working.
> >
> > Jay
> > --
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
> --
> Please note the new Lightbulb Press phone numbers starting January 3:
>
> Main: 212-485-8800
> Direct: 212-485-8826
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: 26 Feb 2002 14:35:33 -0000
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> From: stout at stoutstreet.com
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> I guess I've been out of school awhile, but 'in my day' 69% was a failing
> grade.
>
> >not wanting to condone the low mark rates you obtained, but in a
> >conventional exam 65% would be a very good pass. knowledge isn't always
> >equated to ability either unfortunately.
> >roger
>
> -----------------------------------------
> could use a job.......
> http://www.iampms.com/
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: "rudy" <r937 at interlog.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:50:45 -0500
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> > tHIS sORT oF tHING hAPPENS aLL tHE tIME.
>
> <tip type="Caps Lock Problems">
> pry the bloody caps lock key off your keyboard -- so that you will know
> when your left pinky has accidentally hit it
> </tip>
>
>
> regarding skill testing...
>
> a friend of mine on another list once gathered "typical errors" and built
> a
> page with them, the object being to let the students see if they could
> find
> them all, sort of like an easter egg hunt
>
> here are the items i contributed to his collection
>
> ~ class keyword typo "calss"
> ~ table width=800 (gives horizontal scroll at 800x600)
> ~ td nowrap (blows up the layout)
> ~ td align=centre (canadians won't see what's wrong)
> ~ <table valign=top> (won't validate)
> ~ <table width=100% align=right> totally screws up layout
> ~ <a name=here></a> inside a table (jumps to top of table)
> ~ image with a space in the filename
> ~ font face that doesn't exist on every machine
> ~ td bgcolor="#purple"
> ~ <!-- improperly closed comment -- >
> ~ extra set of <html> or <body> tags
> ~ <a href="#"> around an entire table </a>
> ~ spacer.gif that's actually white, not transparent
> ~ two radio buttons with different names
> ~ two checkboxes with the same name
> ~ form elements (e.g. dropdown) without <form> tag
> ~ css-positioned A (hotlink area is elsewhere)
> ~ parentheses instead of square brackets in a dom reference
> e.g. document.images(2).src = foobar.gif
> ~ ye olde netscape SPACER tag
> ~ typos like <BL0CKQUOTE> (zero for oh)
> ~ <a name=top></a> but then <a href="top">Top</a>
> ~ an animated gif that starts with a blank frame
> (on a browser with "play animations" turned off)
> ~ <img src=1pixelblue.gif width=100%> as an <hr> replacement
>
> admittedly some of these are not suitable for entry level testing
>
> and some of them aren't "errors"
>
> rudy
> http://rudy.ca/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: Jay Blanchard <jay.blanchard at thermon.com>
> To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:53:26 -0600
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> >GET is a web request to the browser, where POST sends info to the server.
> >(They all said this.)
>
> >I'm assuming they/you meant it's a request "from" the browser.
>
> You're right, my fingers didn't cooperate this morning.
>
> >If not ignore all of this. However, isn't this technically true? Here's
> what it
> >looks like when your browser requests a page: GET - variables in the form
> <snip>
>
> GET - variables in the form are passed via the URL. The GET method means
> retrieve whatever information (in the form of an entity) is identified by
> the Request-URI. If the Request-URI refers to a data-producing process, it
> is the produced data which shall be returned as the entity in the response
> and not the source text of the process, unless that text happens to be the
> output of the process.
>
> POST - variables in the form are passed via the HTTP request. The POST
> method is used to request that the origin server accept the entity
> enclosed
> in the request as a new subordinate of the resource identified by the
> Request-URI in the Request-Line.
>
> Technically?
>
> Jay
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:34:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen [was Anti-aliasing]
> From: dan donaldson <dan at omnivore.ca>
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 12:34 AM, Erik Mattheis wrote:
>
> > I don't know about anybody else, but I'm saying Jakob Neilson shot
> > his big ignorant mouth off in that essay.
> >
> > Yeah, my language has been kind of harsh, but frankly it pisses me
> > off when someone oft quoted in the mass media disseminates false and
> > misleading information about the technology that pays most of my rent.
>
> I know this argument well. I used to work at a 3d animation house, with
> huge pressure to keep the costly machines we had busy and paying
> themselves off. That meant that we (and every other 3d house in the
> world) developed the 'Here is the answer, now what was the question'
> approach to clients. Whatever concerns the client had - will my product
> look good? - will I get better results from a traditional animation
> house? - will I be able to modify it easily for the
> European/Chinese/Japanese/whatever market? were all given set answers.
> Sadly, these usually involved invidious comparisons that exploited the
> clients' ignorance.
>
> It seems to me that Erik has a bit of this. Like the old 3d animation
> house, where we looked on our computers as our mealticket, and would
> allow no evil to be spoken of them, even where they could not even hear
> us, Erik cannot bear to see his rice bowl questioned. But lets look at
> some of the exchange:
>
>
> > Indeed ... that right or control-click doesn't work in Flash
> > frustrates me too.
>
> >
> >> - mousewheel
> >
> > I'm not sure about the mousewheel, but you're probably correct.
>
> > Myself, I'd recommend against using Flash to display paragraphs of
> > scrollable text in almost all situations.
>
> >> * The "Back" button does not work.
>
> > Correct.
>
> >> * Link colors don't work.
>
> > Incorrect. At the time Jacob wrote this, the current version of Flash
> > could change the colors
>
> >> * The "Make text bigger/smaller" button does not work.
>
> > Incorrect. <snip/> again with the version that
> > was current as of the writing.
>
> but these two points mean that all the other flash movies made previous
> to that version presumably could not?
>
> >
> >> * The "Find in page" feature does not work. In general, Flash
> >> integrates poorly with search.
> >
> > Correct on the first part, incorrect on the second.
>
> > Erik then goes on to act as if search meant 'search inside the site you
> > are in', when clearly what he means and what is important is the
> > ability to be found by search engines, which Flash makes much more
> > difficult.
>
>
> >
> >> * Flash reduces accessibility for users with disabilities.
> >
> > Correct. If it's important that visitors with disabilities be able to
> > access the content, making a Flash only site would indeed be stupid.
>
> But the other option is to make the site twice? And he later disagrees
> that Flash content is more expensive to produce:
>
> >
> >> If Flash was cheap to produce and if all content creators could
> >> make a Flash object
> >> as easily as they write a standard Web page, then perhaps many of
> >> these problems
> >> would be alleviated.
> >
> > ROFLMAO. Here's Jakob, I'm Jacob - I've got a deadly serious scowl on
> > my face: "Flash poses a fundamental threat to the status quo.
>
> Well, if content can be accessed by disabled users and screen readers
> most effectively through HTML, then for a huge number of sites, HTML is
> a given. Corporations and Government agencies (and the sites of those
> who deal with these groups) require that accessibility issues be
> addressed and Flash doesn't do that. So, since as site manager I /have/
> to do the one, and since Erik has suggested that companies, if they want
> their Flash sites to reflect a good understanding of the site topic:
>
> > Asinine. It's not Flash's fault if you don't have anyone in house
> > that knows it
>
> it seems that a full-time Flashkinder is not an expense? Of course it
> is. And at the end of the day, for what? If the content is presented in
> that much better a way than the HTML version, then it can be argued that
> the accessibility issues are not being addressed. If it is being done as
> effectively, then what is the point of the costly second version?
>
> >
> >> * Frequently updating content (Flash content tends to be
> >> created once and then left alone).
> >
> > A statement by someone who's ignorant of the fact that it's just as
> > easy or easier to update text in a Flash movie than a HTML page ...
>
> And then a statement by someone who hasn't considered that he is masking
> the real issue by comparing single pages to single sections of Flash
> movies. If as a content manager I need to add three new pages to my
> site, I can do so, easily, and link them effectively to other parts of
> the site, and build reciprocal links back in any way I like. While you
> possibly /could/ do this in Flash, it would be immensely harder to do
> so. By comparing updating /a page/ with /a Flash movie/ it limits the
> scope of debate to what is convenient for the defense of Flash, but it
> would be serving clients very badly.
>
> >
> >> Also, text that moves is harder to read for users who lack fluency
> >> in the language.
> >
> > Um, I find it hard to believe he's unaware that it's possible to have
> > text that doesn't move in a Flash movie.
>
> I think that text often does move in Flash movies, and this - especially
> at the time that JN wrote, was what it was [in]famous for. It doesn't
> have to move, but a huge amount of Flash is/was devoted to creating
> animated text and flying logo sequences. And often these are the intro
> to the site. This in turn makes it harder for users who lack fluency to
> assess the use of the site they have found. Does anyone here disagree
> with this statement?
>
> >> Flash is typically created by outside agents who don't
> >> understand the
> >> business).
> >
> > Asinine. It's not Flash's fault if you don't have anyone in house
> > that knows it nor have anyone that can effectively communicate with a
> > outside contractor.
>
> Hardly asinine, and certainly true. It's important that sites
> communicate messages that promote businesses they represent. The strange
> attribution of questions of guilt to a software program (Flash's fault)
> reveal that this is an emotional issue for Erik, where it is a matter of
> rational debate for others. Hence his defensive, overheated tone.
>
> Relax, mate.
>
> In any event, I have had to learn the humility to admit that after
> fifteen years of web and multimedia, I never will reach the level of
> competence at handling content, of understanding its nuances that my
> clients in their various specializations do. Just as they will never be
> as good a Lingo or PHP coder as I am. This is a trade-off in
> communications, or at least it was until HTML and CMS came along. To
> move to a system that reverses this trend is a step backwards. Erik can
> come up with situations - as can I - where this does not matter. But
> Nielsen's point is focussed, and relates to the representation of expert
> knowledge and should be taken in that context, not twisted to suit a
> defense of the author's dependencies.
>
> >
> >> * Providing informative content that answers users' key questions
> >> at all
> >> depth levels (Flash content is typically superficial).
> >
> > If someone can explain what this means or is alluding to, I'd
> > appreciate it.
>
> He means what the previous point brought out - that Flash content is
> usually created by non-experts in the topic, and so reflects the
> superficial understanding that a Flash developer will have of the
> subject. Although he does not say it, this points out that not only
> content, but also the method of its linking is critical in developing
> information systems.
>
> This looks to me like 12 non-trivial points against Flash that have
> either been conceded by Erik or inadequately answered, often by changing
> the context of the question - for instance the issue of search being
> applied not to search engines but to search within the Flash movie.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I like Flash, it has its place, just as the 3d
> machines I used to work with/for had a place. When I left that business,
> I started brokering video production services, and I was suddenly free
> to choose the best tool for the job. Only then did I begin to realize
> the limits of the thinking that prevailed in the animation houses I
> worked with, where for them everything was 3d, 3d, 3d. I expect people
> to defend the tools they use, but as a client and a supplier, my first
> obligation is to understand my clients' real needs and address those
> first.
>
> Macromedia has their own promotions department, Erik - take some time
> off, and learn Java...or XML or something. Your clients will thank you.
>
> dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Cristian Secara" <secarica at fx.ro>
> To: "thelist at lists.evolt.org" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:53:31 +0200
> Subject: [thelist] usability does not require charset info ?
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I looked at Jacob's useit site source code and I haven't seen any
> < META ... charset=... > info.
> Giving the fact that his site is using (probably) US English
> exclusively, from a usability point of view, is this tag no longer
> required ?
>
> This is a simple curiosity issue, it is not intended to be any sort of
> criticism for Jacob's site.
>
> Best wishes,
> Cristi
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:54:23 -0600
> From: Dave <schemer at cyou.com>
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] PWS as a Webserver
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I was planning on installing both if that will work...I am going to
> flash my bios first though...I hear you loud and clear though as I
> downloaded PHPTriad yesterday during peak hours and it was a long one...
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
> David Kutcher wrote:
>
> > <whisper>go php triad....</whisper>
> >
> > fadeout.
> > --
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Miriam Frost" <miriam at members.evolt.org>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:00:26 -0600
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> > example done. I do have 6 years experience in design and I did know all
> > the answers to the questions Jay posted here but I still can't find a
> > job because most of the jobs advertized here require a bachelor's degree
> > in Computer science or something of the type...while I see graduates who
> > have no idea what a DTD is or how to manually tweak their code to make
> > is work properly get great jobs (which will eventually give them the
> > real world experience) just because they have the right papers...
>
> My degree is in history, and I'd be very hard pressed to find a job in
> that
> field as I have been in advertising, marketing, and now web design ever
> since. This is why most job ads are phrased "degree or equivalent
> experience." (Especialllllly in such a new field as the web.) Many times,
> it's left out as an understood so as to save classified linage ($). Go for
> those jobs anyway.
>
> Miriam
> (who still sometimes answers the phone, "Milwaukee Journal Advertising")
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> From: "Paul Backhouse" <paul.backhouse at 2cs.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:10:48 -0000
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I think the best way to really see what a developer/designer is capable of
> is to test them - it makes sense.
> I myself have not got any qualifications that are job specific.
> I started out 6 years ago as a PC technician for the largest Telecoms
> supplier in the UK, I worked at the 3rd largest Research center in main
> land
> Europe - I trained in Pc techy things, rebuilds, networks, software,
> hardware - I got one training qualification and that was in Unix! And can
> I
> use Unix - not a chance. But I could strip a pc in seconds!
>
> I left that job and applied for another techincal position in another
> company and I was tested along with several other candidates - I dropped
> one
> mark and was given the job the same day.
>
> Now I'm a developer - which Ive been doing for just over 2 years now - I
> am
> self taught and was guided by a friend. I hand code HTML, ASP, Vbscript,
> Javascript, DHTML, databasing. I still have a lot to learn (one of the
> main
> reasons why I like the development area - you constantly learn) but I feel
> confident that in a testing environment with the knowledge I have, I'd be
> ok.
>
> Just because I don't have a degree or some other higher qualification
> doesn't mean I zam not a suitable candidate for a development job - most
> companies in the UK are more inclinded to take on the job experience over
> qualifications these days.
>
> Thats my thoughs
>
> cheers
>
> paul
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> From: Roger Newbrook <roger.newbrook at kmsoftware.com>
> To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:11:35 -0000
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> Stout wrote... "I guess I've been out of school awhile, but 'in my day'
> 69%
> was a failing grade."
>
> not such a spring chicken myself, when i was an undergraduate 88-91 and
> post
> graduate 1995 (UK), 70% was the pinnacle of achievement, anything higher
> meant that you had been touched by the hands of the gods. though, from
> academics i know today (for essays/projects that there are no specific
> *right* answers to), they are being encouraged to use the *full* range of
> marks.
>
> so I suppose it depends on marking strategy employed.
>
> hope this clears my comment up
>
> roger
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:17:35 -0500
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> From: Michael Barrett <mbarrett at triad.rr.com>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
>
> > not wanting to start the old coder/designer thing again, but it may
> > highlight the approach that educational establishments are taking when
> > teaching students, with very little crossover between the two
> disciplines.
>
> I think this is very good point. I will now elaborate at length ;-)
>
> From my personal experience in two Art programs, and my teaching
> experience
> in an interior design program, I can say that there is no cross over.
>
> Many art departments in US universities are a dumping grounds for all
> visual
> arts. Which means there are lots of "fine arts" faculty, and perhaps one
> or
> two "design" faculty. A student focusing in design gets mixed messages
> from
> the beginning, as they are taught from two different camps from the
> beginning. While I was in grad school, I remember undergrads, who majored
> in
> design, being forced to do a "fine art" style project for their senior
> project, largely because the faculty that taught the class didn't respect
> design.
>
> Most Universities, staff and faculty, are far from technologically savvy.
> That role often times falls on the shoulder of the one or two 'young guns'
> hired out of grad school to fill that role.
>
> Often times the faculty teaching design addresses web design and new media
> without the proper training. Because they are the only faculty who can
> handle it at all. The painting faculty certainly won't be of much help.
>
> There are seldom any forays between the computer science departments and
> the
> art departments of universities. I don't know from experience, but I
> imagine
> that computer science departments face similar problems. I can imagine a
> professor trained in COBOL trying to teach ColdFusion.
>
> The short version of the story. Universities and colleges are large and
> slow
> to change. Partially because they are large bureaucracies, partially
> because
> tenured faculty have to retire or die before they are replaced with
> faculty
> having current knowledge. Unless it directly benefits their career, most
> faculty will not learn new technology. They don't have to, their jobs are
> secure.
>
> Most design or art departments will tend to quickly blow through the
> subject
> of web development, introducing only the major commercial software.
> Most computer science students will never ever learn a thing about visual
> design.
> Library Science students will learn a ton about information architecture,
> but never learn programming, never learn a thing about visual design, but
> might learn a few scraps of HTML.
>
> Most undergraduate degree programs are only 4 years. The material that
> must
> be covered in those 4 years in any field is very diverse, and can only be
> an
> introduction. In all field the best learning happens after the 4 year
> introduction in college.
>
> --
> Michael Barrett
> -O^O-
> -
>
> mbarrett at triad.rr.com
> AIM: device55
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:02 -0500
> From: Kevin Martin <evolt at brasscannon.net>
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Subject: Re: [thelist] procmail spam filter
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> Quoth the muinar, "Nevermore!" or, in other words,
> >
> >Who can help me creating a sophisticated procmail spam filter recipe?
> >
>
> See http://handsonhowto.com/pmail101.html and the pages following;
> your comments are welcome. There's a wide variety of resources out
> there, of course; mine is an attempt to start simple.
>
> The spamsign you noticed is a pretty good one, though the "hashbusters"
> spammers use (to try to defeat simple Subject line tests) are by now
> a wide variety, not just five-digit numbers.
>
> Fortunately the more elaborate their tricks, the less their junk
> looks like regular mail.
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> From: "Alastair Murdoch" <alastair at cubeit.co.uk>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:20:02 -0000
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> Flavia Tarzwel said:
> >>require a bachelor's degree in Computer science or something of the
> type...
> >>while I see graduates who have no idea what a DTD is or how to manually
> >>tweak their code to make is work properly get great jobs (which will
> >>eventually give them the real world experience) just because they
> >>have the right papers...
>
> he he, just this afternoon, a basic discussion board on a site we're
> currently revising, written by someone with a computer science degree who
> has since moved on to bigger and better things failed horribly due quite
> bluntly crap to programming.
>
> Proof that the opening a new recordset for each level of a discussion, not
> closing them and calling the whole function over and over doesn't work
> well,
> especial when matched to an access database.
>
> I'm not knocking degrees, I'm a uni drop-out myself so it's easy to be
> mistaken as bitter, but when people who are *qualified* or to put it
> another
> way 'have reached a recognised level in learning potential' as it was once
> described to me, have less perceived ability than me (again, trying not to
> sound bitter) it's very difficult not to be, well, bitter. Especially when
> there doesn't seem to be any hierarchy above them to point out that now
> it's
> the real world, you might just have to do things differently/properly,
> deal
> with it.
>
> The problem seems to be that many senior developers haven't updated their
> skills and see no reason to need to. They will dictate how things are
> done,
> and if the new junior developer hasn't been taught any different, why
> change?? Equally, will the new junior be able to make changes that may
> mean
> re-training a whole team, implying that he/she know better than all of
> them?? Given that they're just glad to have a job to pay off their student
> debts, probably not.
>
> When I was applying for jobs, I never even got to the interview stage, yet
> once I set up on my own, I've been involved in every aspect of site design
> and development for both our own clients and as contactors/consultants for
> other design agencies who strangely seem more prepared to listen to me as
> a
> third party than as their staff.
>
> ok, that was a bit OT, but I'm still venting frustration.
>
> <tip type=Windows 200 Accessibility" author="Alastair Murdoch">
> Laptop users who can't stand the touchpad, or desktop users who are lazy
> may
> want to check out the smartmove feature in the mouse control panel. Go to
> the motion tab and check the smart move checkbox. now when an alertbox
> appears the pointer will automatically jump to the default option. You'll
> either love or hate this but I personally can't live without it.
> </tip>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:19:18 -0500
> From: Matt <mspiegler at lightbulbpress.com>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Organization: Lightbulb Press
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I think we might be talking about two different systems, the American vs.
> the
> British(?) system, in which 70% would equal an excellent score in Britain
> and
> and a mediocre score in America based on different scoring methodologies.
>
> Roger Newbrook wrote:
>
> > not such a spring chicken myself, when i was an undergraduate 88-91 and
> post
> > graduate 1995 (UK), 70% was the pinnacle of achievement, anything higher
> > meant that you had been touched by the hands of the gods. though, from
> > academics i know today (for essays/projects that there are no specific
> > *right* answers to), they are being encouraged to use the *full* range
> of
> > marks.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 17
> From: "McCaw, Douglas *" <McCawD at cber.FDA.gov>
> To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:28:23 -0500
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> >From: Faye Tarzwell(FayeC)
> >On the other hand people with good work experience but who don't have
> >the right "qualifications (read diplomas)" have a hard time finding a
> >job.
>
> Funny, I spent 10 years working with computers as a side function of
> BS lab position, and I then decided to ditch that profession and returned
> to school and received a MS in Information Technology from a reputable
> University where I was published for work with a experienced and well
> known
> professor. I was told that since I do not have experience in the
> "the field" I could not get a job (side/academic experience did not
> count).
> I was told I was overqualified for entry level jobs, but without
> experience
> I could not get an advanced job. This was in 1999 when the market was hot!
>
> >I do have 6 years experience in design and I did know all
> >the answers to the questions Jay posted here but I still can't find a
> >job because most of the jobs advertized here require a bachelor's degree
>
> I now have that magic 2 years experience in the "business", as well as the
> diploma and references to back them up. However, I have been told by job
> prospects that I need (pick one): Certification, more experience,
> experience
> with a specific language/software package/operating system/network.
> Its a tough market right now, but I am working (and so are many of my
> friends)
>
> I have never seen a project fail because someone did not use the right
> tag.
> However, I have seen several projects fail because:
> Requirements never completed(wrote and rewrote).
> User was not included in any planning (delivered the wrong product).
> Programmers did what they were told and never brought problems to
> management.
> (Massive cost over-runs, missed deadlines, buggy code)
>
> My advice on skills testing:
> 1) Ditch the test or relegate it to about 10% of your final score
> (may make a difference between two good candidates).
> 2) Call back your best prospects from the first interview and spend about
> 4hrs apiece with them, take them out to lunch, get others opinions.
> 3) Teach them a new trick and see if they get it.
> 4) Choose someone who will add to the diversity of thought in you
> organization
> and is compatible with the corporate values.
> 5) You WILL have to teach them, hopefully they can teach YOU too!
>
> doug mccaw
> web applications consultant
> mccawd at cber.fda.gov
> dmccaw1 at umbc.edu
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 18
> From: Fortune Elkins <fortune_elkins at summithq.com>
> To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:34:58 -0500
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> how well we all remember the world of the paper CNE!<grin>
>
> my first job was as a low-level Novell LAN monkey, making accounts,
> playing
> with the print server, and doing simple user support. i got my
> certification
> for this and passed the little set of tests.
>
> this testing regime soon fell completely out of favor and became a joke as
> millions of people who had never seen a server but who had memorized the
> books took the tests, passed them all perfectly and yet couldn't tell a
> small computer systems interface card ("scuzzy") from a network card
> ("nic")
> when faced with them in real life.
>
> these people would have passed your test admirably but left ya cryin' in
> your beer, i'm afraid. . .
>
> the whole process left me kinda sour on the entire "test & certify" regime
> personally.
>
> jes' my 2 buffalo nickels,
>
> f
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> --------------------
> The views and opinions expressed in this email message are the sender's
> own, and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Summit
> Systems Inc.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:34:57 +0000
> From: Michael Galvin <michael at sourcedesign.ie>
> To: <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: [thelist] Putting a stock price on your site
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> I'm surprised this hasn't been asked before, but a search of the evolt
> site
> and theList turned up nothing, so here goes.
>
> I'd like to put a client's stock price on his site. The client would like
> not to pay for it. At the moment, I'm messing around with reading
> finance.yahoo.com and parsing out the text I find, but the result is
> niether
> satisfactory or exactly ethical. If Yahoo (or Reuters who supply Yahoo)
> come after my client, guess who'll get the blame.
>
> I've searched around for cgi scripts, and of the ones I could get to work
> (a
> lot were perl modules, which I suspect I would need to consult my friendly
> ISP about installing for me), the layout, content, etc had to follow a set
> standard, which is annoying to say the least.
>
> Anyone any tips?
>
> Michael
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 20
> From: NanHarbisonSmith at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:36:03 EST
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> FWIW,
> I would have failed the CSS coding of this test because I generally copy
> and
> paste the code from other CSS pages. It is tedious and annoying to type it
> all in by hand. I would not be able to write it all out from scratch.
> Nan
>
> -------------original message--------------
> > I asked them the questions, they responded. I looked at their work,
> checked
> > their source code, found it mostly template driven in an IDE that does
> the
> > code for them, for the most part. I did stick them in front of a
> computer
> > (see question 18) and gave them a basic text editor and a page to
> attempt to
> > replicate. Anyone worth their beans would have scored above a 70. The
> Q&A
> > takes 20 minutes, the last part is allowed 30, and there is 10 minutes
> for a
> > review.
> >
>
>
> Nan Harbison Smith
> 481 Elm Street
> Concord, MA 01742
> 978-369-1224
> 978-369-1681
>
> Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him
> to use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:02:18 -0500
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> From: l a u r a *^* l y n c h <cyberminkie at cyberwhirled.com>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing (long)
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> At 09:12 AM 2/26/02, you wrote:
> >I'm not annoyed at the people per say, it's how they've been taught. The
> >general attitude that web design it still 'easy', no-one seems to be
> >teaching what HTML *IS* and how to use it correctly.
>
> Speaking from personal experience here, I think a large part of the
> problem
> is that it's very difficult to get a teaching job without a BA, and most
> places want prior teaching experience as well. Since the majority of the
> Web design bachelor degree programs out there teach Dreamweaver nowadays,
> it's a vicious cycle -- the people with BAs don't have the information to
> teach text based HTML, and the people who have the knowledge are either
> 'underqualified' (I've an AA in Multimedia Production and 4+ years
> professional experience) or not desired because it doesn't fit in with
> some
> schools' 'be a web designer in 8 weeks' mentality.
>
> Also, re: the original post, what exactly do you mean when you say you're
> looking for a 'web developer'? I generally skip right over those ads, as
> I've found they generally are for ASP/Perl/JAVA/etc. programmers, but it
> sounds like you want someone to do basic HTML/DHTML. This may be why
> you're
> not getting responses from more senior level people -- they read the title
> and think you're looking for something they're not. Next time, try just
> putting the main skills you're looking for as the header instead of the
> title. That way people know at a glance you want HTML/CSS/JavaScript (or
> Graphic Designer, or ASP/SQL/Perl, or whatever) -- likely you'll get a lot
> more responses that way.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> l a u r a *^* l y n c h
> design doyen @ cyberwhirled
> http://www.cyberwhirled.com
> ICQ: 1797450 AIM: cyberminkie
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:37:14 -0600
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> From: Ben Dyer <ben_dyer at imaginuity.com>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] old versions of your favourite websites
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> On 07:08 AM 2/26/2002, Roger Newbrook said to me:
> >i have just been shown a site www.alexa.com (hope it's not old news to
> >everyone but me!!), which claims to show "Behind the scenes of every site
> on
> >the Web." and indeed it seems to. i remember a while ago, someone asking
> >whether there were any site which held old designs of websites, think the
> >one required was old versions of yahoo! ... well, you can get them here,
> >along with traffic and popularity stats. click on the "Wayback" link on
> the
> >left after entering a domain name. give it a look, i think it's quite
> >interesting.
>
> Yes, Alexa is working with/owns the/is partnered with (I forget which) the
> Wayback Machine. You can use the Wayback Machine separate from Alexa:
>
> http://www.archive.org/
>
> --Ben
>
>
> Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
> http://www.imaginuity.com/
>
> If you save the world too often, it begins to expect it.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/ http://www.evolt.org/
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 23
> From: <martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com>
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:40:12 +0000
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
>
> Memo from Martin P Burns of PricewaterhouseCoopers
>
> -------------------- Start of message text --------------------
>
> Also, 70% in a test which has simple right/wrong answers *would*
> be a poor score, whereas for any complex, real-world problem, where
> you're also answering in a very time-limited situation without access to
> reference
> material (ie real-world problem without real-world resources), 70% would
> be good.
>
> The post grad qualification I'm doing at the moment has the pass mark at
> 40%, credit at 60% and distinction at 65%. The marking standard tends to
> mark people at 59% or 64% where their submissions are generally of the
> standard, but missing one or two important things (so it's not a simple "1
> mark per good point and total at the end").
>
> For real-world problems, though, the required standard isn't "perfection",
> but
> "good enough", particularly in an entry-level position. If you're taking
> someone
> straight out of education, then you're assessing potential and attitude -
> *could*
> they be really good with the environment you're going to provide?
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>
> Subject: Re: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
>
>
> I think we might be talking about two different systems, the American vs.
> the
> British(?) system, in which 70% would equal an excellent score in Britain
> and
> and a mediocre score in America based on different scoring methodologies.
>
> Roger Newbrook wrote:
>
> > not such a spring chicken myself, when i was an undergraduate 88-91 and
> post
> > graduate 1995 (UK), 70% was the pinnacle of achievement, anything higher
> > meant that you had been touched by the hands of the gods. though, from
> > academics i know today (for essays/projects that there are no specific
> > *right* answers to), they are being encouraged to use the *full* range
> of
> > marks.
>
>
> --------------------- End of message text --------------------
>
> This e-mail is sent by the above named in their
> individual, non-business capacity and is not on
> behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers.
>
> PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming
> e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and
> telecommunications systems.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
> received
> this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
> computer.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 24
> From: Roger Newbrook <roger.newbrook at kmsoftware.com>
> To: "'thelist at lists.evolt.org'" <thelist at lists.evolt.org>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Hiring Eye Opener - Web Skills Testing
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:39:16 -0000
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> Michael wrote... "
>
> There are seldom any forays between the computer science departments and
> the
> art departments of universities. I don't know from experience, but I
> imagine
> that computer science departments face similar problems. "
>
> from my experience they do. i studied fine art and history of art (great
> job
> prospects huh?)as an undergrad and then studies computer based information
> systems as a post grad (different universities). just kind of fell into
> web
> and multimedia stuff as it was a newly developing area that the Comp
> department wanted to explore and i was the only person on the course to
> have
> both the visual and technical (sic) skills to explore it. there was no
> cross
> department pollenation (so to speak) at all.
>
> Responding to what Alistair said, "but when people who are *qualified* or
> to
> put it another way 'have reached a recognised level in learning
> potential'".
> what do either of my two degrees qualify me to do? i'd really like to know
> (within reasons ;) ). surely you're talking about vocational
> qualifications
> here if you expect a person to fulfil a role after taking a course.
>
> Also, the *real world pill* can be as bitter for graduates, and
> non-graduates alike.
>
> roger
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:42:29 -0600
> To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
> From: Ben Dyer <ben_dyer at imaginuity.com>
> Subject: RE: [thelist] Jakob Nielsen [was Anti-aliasing]
> Reply-To: thelist at lists.evolt.org
>
> On 05:17 AM 2/26/2002, martin.p.burns at uk.pwcglobal.com said to me:
> > >Other than that the "facts" he uses to support his criticism are
> > >incorrect and that he mistakes bad use of Flash as something that's
> > >inherent to Flash itself,
> >
> >If Flash developers are incapable of producing anything but bad
> >Flash, then that's not a valid distinction - if all (or near all) Flash
> is
> >bad Flash, then it's indistinguishable from an inherant property
> >of Flash. Certainly the Flash on the home page of http://www.gozz.com
> >is confusing as hell - is that supposed to be Good Flash?
>
> Erg. I have to say that I hate this kind of navigation. It doesn't make
> immediate, obvious sense to users (me, included): the mouse moves in one
> direction and the navigation moves in the exact opposite? It is contrary
> to how navigation should work.
>
> And, yes, it makes me mad how Apple does it in the OS X dock (fortunately,
> I have turned the enlarging of icons off). I hated how I would aim for
> Eudora and accidentally open the IRC client. You make more mistakes when
> you are aiming at a moving target.
>
> --Ben
>
>
> Ben Dyer, Senior Internet Developer, Imaginuity Interactive
> http://www.imaginuity.com/
>
> If you save the world too often, it begins to expect it.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://members.evolt.org/OKolzig37/ http://www.evolt.org/
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help: http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist
>
> Archives: http://lists.evolt.org
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