> > where's the test to see if the recordset is empty? > ADO sets BOF and EOF to True is the recordset is empty. That's the test: If (oRS.BOF and oRS.EOF) then ' The Recordset is empty ... else ' it's not empty ... end if I know you were more or less just rambling (especially since you've been on a strong anti-MS vent lately), but there it is =) sgd