[thelist] Re: CSS 'hacks'

Tom Dell'Aringa pixelmech at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 10 16:04:00 CDT 2002


--- Michael Mell <mike at nthwave.net> wrote:
> Whoa, I just stepped in a big one. Sorry for the unintended offense.
> I find Javascript extremely frustrating to work with. As a language and concept, it's wonderful.
> It's varied implementations across browsers and platforms makes using it in practice a major
> headache. I decided long ago to do everything possible on the server and use Javascript in the
> browser only when necessary.

> As you say, my guidelines do not fall any where close to the realm of the 12 practices listed in
> the XP FAQ I linked to. The XP school is simply a model I would like to see emulated in the
> realm
> of web coding.
>
> Rather than looking to offend, I hoped my post would generate a set of guiding principles for
> coding websites.
>
> So, Tom, do you have web site coding guide line you work with?

===================================================================

Believe me Mike, no offense! I certainly didn't create JS! I figured you had a larger explanation
that what you said so I was just drawing it out of you. Frankly, you point on JS in the client end
is certainly valid, and I face those headaches daily. But -- there are positives to doing
processing on the client side vs. the server side as I am sure you will agree -- particularly when
you are already doing heavy server side processing.

I tend to enjoy JS quite a bit despite its quirks. But that isn't the topic...XP is.

I like the XP model. The programming community was seriously looking into at Scient before the
whole bubble burst. The trick is actually implementing it where big money is at stake, you have to
have management that is innovative and forward thinking as well as willing to suffer through the
growing pains.

Without getting into a long winded message about XP and web coding, let me just say - YES! And let
me put forth 2 of the 12 principles that I think especially apply and that I think web coders
should use daily, and I just bet you might agree, and I will show you how Evolt.org is in fact
part of what could be considered and XP model.

#4: Simple Design: Always use the simplest possible design that gets the job done. The
requirements will change tomorrow, so only do what's needed to meet today's requirements.

As a web coder I read this as "terse code." And, make it "open ended" - don't lock yourself into
something totally proprietary unless you must (and for a separate conversation, not this one -
there are times when you must - I am on such a project now.)

I don't consider myself a JS expert AT ALL - but it sometimes amazes me when I grab some code to
use and look at it, that it has 2x the amount of code needed to work, and works better without the
extra code.

#7. Pair Programming: All production code is written by two programmers sitting at one machine.
Essentially, all code is reviewed as it is written.

I think its a great idea. Forget the whole discussion about time and money and so on. Much of the
work that I have done that has been good and enjoyable has been in collaberation with other
programmers - either at the same desk or otherwise.

Which makes, in my view, evolt part of a large scale XP component. I'm working on a script, I'm
jammed, I post it, I have a small conversation with people on the list - bang, my code is done and
better than it would have been had I slogged it out on my own.

That's my view. As far as avoiding "sucky" systems and so on, I say yes and true to a point, until
your boss says - "Hey, write some code for this sucky system, we have a big sucky client who is
going to pay us big sucky dollars to write sucky proprietary code." And then you have to do it. ;)
But you can still apply XP principles in that case too, IMHO.

Lastly - I avoid NS4 AT ALL COSTS! LOL. If I do something personal on the web, not only will I not
even think of NS4, I will deliberately leave code in there that will break NS4 if it works in my
own guidelines. Anything I can do to make that beast DIE. (flame me for that, I care not.)

Like to hear what everyone else thinks too about XP.

Tom

> Tom Dell'Aringa wrote:
>
> > Wow, I'm wanting to know more about the "Javascript as a system that suck(s)" and why, myself.
> > I've been in contact with XP before and think its a great idea. However, "avoid working with
> > systems that suck" may be your XP guidelines but that hardly falls under the 12 core practices
> > outlined in the FAQ!
> >
> > If you were attempting to adopt a XP philosophy in your work, you would not necessarily avoid
> > working with a system, as much as work with a system within the XP framework.
> >
> > Again, I realize these are your practices for yourself. But I don't see "javascript sucks so I
> > don't use it if possible" and XP matching up.
> >
> > Tom
> > --- Michael Mell <mike at nthwave.net> wrote:
> > > There is a concept floating around called Extreme Programming (XP). Here is a
> > > quick intro:
> > > http://www.jera.com/techinfo/xpfaq.html
> > >
> > > XP goes far beyond simple coding practices, but I have an intuitively defined
> > > set of guidelines that I think of as my XP guidelines.
> > > ~ do nothing that is not platform independent
> > > ~ avoid working with systems that suck (I include Javascript here)
> > > ~ if necessary to work with sucky systems, keep it to a minimum (most of CSS in
> > > NS4)
> > > ~ always build in an Object Oriented way (even my simplest websites use a CMS)
> > >
> > > Anyone have a more rigorous set of XP guidelines for html/css?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > jcanfield at magisnetworks.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > > i'm not anti-css, in fact i definitely and wholeheartedly
> > > > > believe in separating style from content, but at the same
> > > > > time, i have a very strong aversion to what i call hacks
> > > > > (donning my flame retardant suit), so if anything, i am
> > > > > perhaps just a css anti-guru....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > rudy
> > > >
> > > > No, you're an evangelist for the true faith.
> > > >
> > > > Part of what's wrong with the web is that so many of us have felt compelled
> > > > to hack HTML for presentation instead of leaving it as a structural tool.
> > > > Standards are making progress, and the browsers are (albeit sluggishly)
> > > > following suit. Let's not submit ourselves to years of CSS hacks which we'll
> > > > all have to unlearn next year, the way we now all have to unlearn HTML
> > > > presentational hacks.
> > > >
> > > > joel
> > > > --
> > > > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > > > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > > > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> > >
> > > --
> > > mike[at]nthwave.net
> > > llemekim         YahooIM
> > > 415.455.8812     voice
> > > 419.735.1167     fax
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> > --
> > For unsubscribe and other options, including
> > the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !
>
> --
> mike[at]nthwave.net
> llemekim         YahooIM
> 415.455.8812     voice
> 419.735.1167     fax
>
>
> --
> For unsubscribe and other options, including
> the Tip Harvester and archive of thelist go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !


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