On 2 Jul 2003 at 17:07, Chris W. Parker wrote: > It seems to me that if two groups continuously get mistaken for one > another there's got to be SOME reason for that. > > Please educate me. Chris, it is about a few things. First and fore most, its strictly about the knowledge hackers have, it is deep knowledge. The original meaning of hacker stems from the early sixities at MIT, which is the meaning that currently 'hackers' are trying to have not abused. Crackers, for a lack of a better description, crack, like a 'Safe cracker', the break security. They also have a group of wanna - bes, as do the hackers. Generally the cracker wannabes, call them selfs hackers, probally due to the media mis-representation, and hackers call them skript kiddies. This language: 1337, etc.. is Script Kiddie language. And in all reality, hackers don't use it, unless they are acting foolish. Hackers are more then just computer programmers, they are clever coders, to by pass a problem that look impossible, but they come up with a solution. It has a lot more to do with life, and taking the challenge of self; So in that respect it is not just about computers, it could simply mean trying something difficult, only becouse you want to, and accomplishing it. It is more of a state of mind, where you will ultimately be building something, even though it may seem needless, and it may seem unwanted, and it may seem like a waste of time, but you do it anyway, and soon find out it is so needed, and so wanted, and suddenly you have groups of people helping out. It could be about a dream to, and having the guts to do it. It could be about a problem, that seems to have no readily avaliable solution, but then you solve it, by working around it, and not breaking anything, or if you do, you fix it. that is all it is, but it is difficult to obtain; But i'm not hacker, the above are only things I state as my opinion. I'll add, it seems to have a lot to do with pushing your self to new limits. and to a certain extent, we all have a little hacker in us; Specially if its done just for the challenge of it. Script kiddies are called that, mostly becouse they take other peoples code, are immature and generally do not contribute. They use for instance, trojan horses; But have no idea how the tool is working, on the insides. They are the dangerous bunch, simply becouse they think its cool, but may un-knowingly delete your hard drive. Crackers have their place, they may be 'black hat' hackers, with more of criminal tendacy, the want to get something for there own benefit. It is all pretty confusing, really, its a collective group, not unlike any other group, with offshoots, beleifs, and a certain amount of acomplishment. Any group can be an example, every group have peers, peers that may have innovated, and created, despite what may have been in the way. Anyway, Have Fun. Ryan.