[thelist] applications vs. W3C DOM (was: favicon weirdness)

[Peter-Paul Koch]

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > From: Peter-Paul Koch
> >
> > My cynicism is in this case not directed at Explorer or
> > its development team, but at the particular *story*
> > "Microsoft-employees-ask-about-standards-so-Explorer-
> > must-become-standards-compliant".  I do not believe in
> > that story and am pretty cynical about the wishful
> > thinking web developers reveal by telling and re-telling
> > it.
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>sorry to say, but history has proven otherwise.  not only has microsoft
>implemented a number of standards in ie (win & mac) because of their
>involvement with/membership in various standards committees, they've also
>helped create standards for things that have proven very useful.

That's all true, to an extent, but it still doesn't make me believe the 
*story*. Anyway, let's agree to disagree, and let's wait to find out what 
Microsoft will actually do.

>
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > > and from someone that does web application development
> > > (no, not .net) on a daily basis and has done so for a
> > > number of years, i can tell you that w3c dom doesn't
> > > even come close to some of the problems i've
> > > encountered.
> >
> > I'm making a strong statement because I hope for
> > reactions.  Please give me an example of something an
> > application running on the client side can do and the
> > W3C DOM can't. (Except for saving data back to the
> > server, that doesn't work yet in the W3C DOM).
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>sorry, no exceptions.  the w3's biggest shortfall right now is in effective
>in-page communication with the server.  sure, we've got hacks like hidden
>iframes, swapping the source of a 1x1 image, etc.  these are all ugly and
>have huge disadvantages associated with using them.  sorry, but 
>non-hackish,
>in-page communication with the server is paramount to web-app development.

1) Importing XML documents would be a good way to go about this, though 
browser support isn't yet what it could be. I was thinking of maybe 
importing XHTML documents, strip the overhead (HTML, HEAD, BODY etc.) and 
embedding them (or selected data) in the page. This is good for 
accessibility, too: if the browser doesn't support XML importing it can just 
show the XHTML page.

2) Why do you think filling iframes with data is an ugly hack? Aren't 
iframes meant to display several pages in one page? I quite like the idea 
and I'm going to experiment with it in the next site I'll code.

A year and a half ago I wrote an editor for a large and complicated Web site 
navigation. I imported the current navigation as an XML file. When the user 
was done changing it, I parsed the new structure of the navigation, made it 
XML and pasted this into a textarea as a string. The form was submitted to 
the server and the string was remade into XML there.

So it's possible, even with today's technologies, though the solutions may 
be considered ugly. And no, I didn't write the server side script that made 
XML out of a string. A Java programmer did that.

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > Example, please.
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>crank up win/ie6 and head to http://oddpost.com/.

Hmmm, it's already client side, except for the client-server-communication, 
of course.

http://oddpost.com/faq.html#whatOddpost:
"
Surely all this requires Java!?
Nope, Oddpost works using dynamic html, xml and soap, technologies built 
right into the browser. You don’t need Java or any plug-ins at all. There’s 
no download and no installation process.
"

In short, my theory remains that, possibly except for the problem of 
client-server communication, the W3C DOM can do the work of any application.

Of course, if you know of something the DOM cannot do and an application 
can, please let me know.

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ppk, freelance web developer
Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
Column "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
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