[thelist] making the move from php to asp

Stephen Caudill SCaudill at municode.com
Fri Apr 16 11:36:26 CDT 2004

--------------- Ken Schaefer wrote: --------------- 
: You also said:
: "Ah, sweet semantics. Here, you err in the same way so many
: literalists have before. Pray you take the meaning and not the
: letter"
: Whereas you seem to draw a sharp distinction between "read" and
: "scan", I was using them interchangeably. So try not to nickpick
: too much. Just read what I wrote as if I used the word "scan"
: instead of the word "read". 

Okay, so neither of us is "gnit-picking" except when we are.
: In addition, I don't personally look at "thousands of lines of
: code" at a time - I use an IDE that saves me from that type of
: problem.

Someone break out the ruler, there's a measuring contest at hand.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
::: BZZT - ASP.NET involves no client-side runtime -
::: it runs entirely on the server.
:: Granted. (I was thinking of .NET windows Apps, which
:: are prone to version corruption as the runtime is
:: updated. [2])
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: It certainly didn't seem like you were thinking of that. You
: seemed to be thinking about forcing a
: "honking huge runtime" download upon all viewers of ASP.NET
: pages. But, when corrected,
: you feel the need to put some other derogatory comment in.

I think my comment said it all.  I admitted you were correct about
the runtime and had been mixed up by a recent article (referenced
before) I had read. Which derogatory comment?  The one where I 
explained how I got confused and was wrong?
: I have no idea what you mean by "version corruption" - I
: certainly didn't get that from the link you cited. If you knew
: anything about ASP.NET you'd know that backwards compatibility/no
: breaking changes is one of the top priorities of the development
: team. There's a bit of a rant on that site - obtuse error
: messages, and so forth - but that's another issue. 

*That Site*... is a very well respected site on software development.
The "version corruption as the runtime is updated" I referred to is
clearly cited here:

in paragraph four.  As I referenced before.  Really, now do your 
coworkers have to say everything twice, or is it just me?
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
::: In any case, the runtime is a whole 17 MB.
:: Not everyone[3] has the luxury of a fat pipe to
:: download over. 17MB on dialup is an eternity.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Which is why the runtime is redistributable. You don't get your
: users to download the runtime. You bundle it with your Winforms
: application (since Winforms apps are the only things that require
: the runtime locally), and you have it installed as part of your
: setup routine. 
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:::: Maybe because we have theological differences with the
:::: language? 
::: BZZT - ASP.NET isn't a "language". There are over 25 CLS
::: compliant languages you can choose from for developing ASP.Net
::: applications.
: Ah, sweet semantics. Here, you err in the same way so many
: literalists have before. Pray you take the meaning and not the
: letter.  ASP.NET was used as an umbrella term for all languages
: operating under its Common Language Runtime.  Would your prefer
: I list each CLS compliant language everytime I refer to it?
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Well, for starters CLS isn't the same as CLR. But let's leave
: that aside. 

You also said: 
"try not to nickpick too much"
Which you clearly are.  And with no basis.  At no time did I say 
they were the same thing. Nor did I use them out of context. 

: How could you have a theological diference with
: *every* language that you could use? You don't like VB, and you
: seem to express a preference for C style languages, so what's
: your beef with Managed C++? Or JScript.Net? (or if you prefer
: more esoteric languages: COBOL.NET or Eiffel.NET)? 
: What language is it that you use that has such significant
: differences to one of the .Net ones?

This thread started about ASP, not .NET, in which I voiced my 
personal gripes with VBScript.

However, if you're interested, and haven't yet gleaned it, my 
idealistic differences with .NET stem from my distate for 
"Harry Potter Programmers" that use wizards and winforms rather 
than writing the code themselves. I believe that automation of 
programming makes sloppy code and greatly hinders accessibility. 
In fact I've seen it in practice.

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:::: Maybe because we don't like the Forms-Based design
:::: that the IDE makes so darn condusive?
::: ASP.NET has an IDE?!?
:: I believe the accepted, professional choice of IDE's for
:: developing in the ASP.NET CLR is Visual Studio .NET. Heard of
:: it? I'm also aware you can write .NET in notepad. Does this
:: constitute an IDE? NO.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Well, if you talk to Macromedia, they'll tell you that they have
: an IDE for developing ASP.NET too. So, if you believe them, the
: Visual Studio.Net isn't the only IDE in town.

You said:
"ASP.NET has an IDE?!?"
I said: 
"I believe the accepted, professional choice of IDE's for
developing in the ASP.NET CLR is Visual Studio .NET."

Just taking the oppurtunity to, once again, say things twice.  I'm
not contesting Macromedia or WebMatrix or any other IDE that supports
.NET, I merely answered your question.
: That said, an event-based programming ideology has nothing to do
: with Visual Studio.Net - it is not the IDE that pushes you
: towards using postbacks. So I don't understand why you are
: linking "forms based design" with Visual Studio.Net.

Because the IDE, which I have installed, but do not use, makes it very
conducive to Visual Programming.  See above objections.

: Furthermore I don't really understand what you mean by
: "forms-based design". You have your contents, and you stick form
: tags around it. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

I don't follow.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
::: Could I suggest that you get a clue before you post something
::: like this in a place where you'd be seriously ridiculed?
: :"Here there be trolls"
:: And here, Ken, is where you simply become small and
:: offensive. Can I suggest you keep a civil tongue in your head?
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: I beg your pardon? You peddle untruths

Which, the only one I'm aware of, I conceded my innaccuracy on.

: technical inaccuracies,

Again, where, when, which?

: and outright rubbish.

Okay, let's not throw fecal matter around, we're big primates,
be specific. 

: You are the one that like to use phrases
: like "piss me off".

First off, I wasn't talking to you, secondly, your quote is just
plain wrong.

"Some things that are bound to piss you off about ASP/VBScript:"

and was in the context of speaking to a PHP developer.  Reread.
be accurate. be specific. 

: You are the one that engages in hypocrisy.

Which, where, when.  C'mon, be specific.

: The "high moral ground/holier than thou" attitude doesn't appeal
: to me much. 


: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:: I am hardly interested in getting into a Religious debate about
:: who's language is better.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Fine - stick to the things you know something about, and stop
: criticising that which you, manifestly, don't know much about.

Again, I say that YOU cannot make a blanket statement such as:

: "I don't understand why anyone would start a new project now utilising
: Classic ASP"

And not think it's bait.  It's flat-out, open handed criticism to anyone
who doesn't see things your way.



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