upgrading browsers is *not* easy (RE: [thelist] How important is height when using tables?)

[Joel D Canfield]

> TV producers don't make their shows "compatible" with old black and 
> white TVs just because some people still have them. 

Of course they do. You can watch anything on broadcast TV using a b&w,
and other than the lack of color, it works *identically* to a color TV.

Why should we 
> produce websites for users who still have ancient (in the computer 
> world) browsers?

Because we want the widest possible audience. If you're developing an
e-commerce site, ask the client "how many sales would you like to
intentionally kill?" They'll quote a pretty small number. Probably zero.

> Upgrading a browser is fairly easy to do, even for 
> not-so-savvy computer 
> users.

Absolutely not true. Upgrading a piece of software which they had to
struggle to learn in the first place is like pulling teeth for a
non-technical person. Go to your grandmother's house and try it. 

Or, go to the 150-person business down the street and try it. They'll
ask why their entire IT department should spend two weeks on a project
that nets the company nothing but frustrated and confused users. It's a
non-starter to  the average CFO.

Learning how to use the upgraded version of a browser 
> is also not 
> very difficult. Even learning a totally new browser is pretty easy, 
> cause they are fairly similar in functionality and layout (if 
> not in how 
> they display web pages). Like pulling a tooth, it will hurt 
> briefly, but 
> the pain will go away, and leave the "patient" feeling much better :)

Funny, I hadn't read your tooth-pulling reference when I wrote mine.

You're speaking from the perspective of a technical person. Learning a
new browser is frightening to the average non-technical person. It's not
easy for them. It's really not. Ask them.

> I think we should, as long as client/employer/time 
> constraints allow us 
> to, make the switch from table-based layouts to CSS-based layouts. We 
> just need to make sure our pages degrade gracefully enough that users 
> can easily access the content of the pages; if they don't get the 
> "pretty" version of the site, too bad.

Moving to CSS is excellent. Disregarding the desires of your visitors
is, to some extent, narrow-minded.

Besides, you can do a full CSS/tableless layout and make it pretty.
Appearance isn't even the question here. Yes, even with wonky garbage
like NN4, you can do *something.* Not the *same* thing, but something.

> Honestly, I think all this coddling of users with older 
> browsers is just 
> holding the industry back and not doing anyone any good. It 
> encourages 
> users to not bother upgrading, and encourages (a lot of) 
> developers to 
> not bother learning new techniques.

Tell that to corporate America, where Netscape 4 is god.

I understand your attitude, really I do. I really think that advancing
technology, when it's better than last year's model, is great. I prefer
DVDs to waiting for my favorite movie to be on TV. I prefer A/C in my
car instead of suffering in the heat. But when we insist that others
accept our forward-looking attitude *regardless of their own desires* we
begin to sound arrogant.

Put yourself on the other side. What if your automobile's maker told you
what type of sound system you could have in the car, or insisted that
you change from bucket seats to a bench seat because it was 'better' in
*their* opinion? It's *your* friggin' car, isn't it? You're the
*customer*, aren't you? Shouldn't you get your car in the color you
want, with options *you* like? Who cares if the salesman thinks orange
paint is safer because it's more visible in bad weather? The more he
insisted, the more you'd want to buy your care elsewhere.

Visitors are potential customers; not just at a site that sells
something, but at a site that *says* something. When I write my music
reviews, I want the widest possible audience because I'm passionate
about what I'm saying (or I wouldn't bother writing.)

I'm *not* going to tell even 4% of my visitors to go away until they
adopt my perspective on technology. If your gramma wants to use WebTV to
read my reviews, I'll give her a big ol' smooshy hug and fetch her some
iced tea while she's reading.

Not a personal attack here, just a reformed tech pusher who's decided to
live and let live.

joel