[thelist] arguments pro css & xhtml / con tables

[Christian Heilmann]

> > Personally I don't see any reason that would warrant tables for layout
> > these days. Designs tend to need to be more flexible these days
> > rather than set-in-stone-pixel-perfect layout beauties,

> Not the designers/clients I work for.

Change your job then?

> I frequently have to return to tables to get elements to line up how they
> want.

They ask you to implement, you are responsible for making it work. If
"they" don't know the limitations of the medium it is "your"
responsibility to show them - pointing out the benefits that come with
it.

> Every "how to use CSS for layout" tutorial I have seen has created a very
> simple columnar layout. The designers/clients I work for rarely want one of
> those, instead there will be elements crossing over from one column to
> another with other elements that must line up with each other and the
> element that crosses over, and the size of the content can change, but there
> must be something that lines up with the bottom of the content. etc. etc.

IMHO it is about time we get away from the "look my blog uses CSS"
tutorials to real world scenarios that do involve markup from CMS and
other sources. I tried it a year ago with http://www.csstoolshed.com
but nobody gave a monkey's... It must be much more important to prove
yet once again that you can turn the CSS Zen Garden markup into a
massive bitmap.

Then again have you taken a look at:

* http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/
* http://blog.html.it/layoutgala/

> Tables = very easy to code layout that takes less than a hour.
> CSS = days of frustrated hair-pulling and researching and analytical
> testing/debugging to get to work (if it's not a simple columnar layout).

That is a skill level / getting time to research issue. As a
generalization I cannot subscribe to this. I worked for an agency in
the last five years delivering things like visitbritain.com or
mcdonalds.co.uk (html version) and didn't use any tables.
Using what you have known for years (tables) is a quick way out and
you don't have to think about it. On the other hand you shouldn't
complain about getting bad design assignments if you don't push back.
You will be responsible for fixing what is on the screen, and if there
are any issues because of table layouts it will be put on the table as
your decision.If you as the developer don't evolve nobody will as all
the PMs see is you working to time and budget. As your line manager
I'd ask you in appraisals where your motivation lies and ask for more
initiative if you want to become more than a code monkey.

> Boss say "you must complete this job in 4 hours or you will go over budget
> and be disciplined". Me say, "righto, I'll use tables then".

I say: Uh, my CV and monster, good idea.

> IMHO, in the real commercial world ... as opposed to web designer's blogs
> and hobby sites ... table layouts are the norm.

I'd say 40% of the commercial world, but definitely not the norm any
longer - unless it is just too easy to cave in or use what comes out
of the box with the CMS/framework.

-- 
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/