2 things to try here; (don't really have the time to look at the code...) Have you got a clear: both; after the nav and before the of the containing div? Try putting a height on the containing div. Both are assuming that you are still floating the ul in the container, when you do this the container sort of has nothing in it, (not a great explanation but hey ho). > > Also, have you played with the CSS List-o-matic: > > http://accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/developer-tools/list-o-matic/ > > guess where I got this code from correction: got it from http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal03.htm stupefying: it is definitely the float:left on the 'a' that's breaking it. now it's broken even worse, but in a different way :) more fooling around seems to be in order, but it'll have to wait 'til tomorrow. Jules and marc, I'll have a closer look at your sample snippets and let you know what I learn from it. thanks, y'all joel -- * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !