[thelist] Layout Stability

DAVOUD TOHIDY dtohidy at hotmail.com
Thu Nov 8 09:17:21 CST 2007

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 23:09:53 -0500 Felix Miata wrote:
>The web is not inherently constrained by your choice of resolutions.
I agree, however I did design for my choice and there is 
nothing wrong with that. I did choose the resolutions that
I believe has the most common usage. No worry about the other ones.
>I would think a 6th grade grammar teacher> likely would give it a barely passing grade were it an assignment to be> turned in. ;-)
Well, please excuse me if english is my second language. Will take a course
to pass the 6th grade :) .
> and 1920x1200 (WUXGA) make up at least 97% of the rest on a sales weighted> basis. Most stores have few if any of these latter. In this context, I> believe failure to test with window widths exceeding 1280px (just how wide is> 1280px anyway?) constitutes negligent testing.
This is not a professional comment. As desginers and coders we 
can not rely on one or two or more stores. 
I am pretty much sure you agree that, this needs a more solid study. 
A global study would be reliable but not even a study in a 
specific geographical area.
I would certainly take that in an account if you provide a link to 
a solid global study in this regard. If not then I think we need to
end discussing about this issue, because it won't take us anywhere.
>On the contrary, when actually designing for the web one does not design for> resolutions.
well when you test your design at a resolution and you notice something wrong
with your design, you go back and then recode to fix it.
Isn't this designing for resolution? what do you call it? please let me know
I will use your definition!
> I see, a layout is supposed to be stable, but only at some arbitrary> selection of screen resolutions chosen by you.
I beleive a layout must meet the layout stability requirements regardless of
circumstances. However it has different degrees. Let me give you a real time 
example which is similar to this.
They design an infrastructure for earth quake. One of the measurement for
earth quake's power is Richter. They design the infrastructure for say 8 Richter,
which is the highest happened earth quake in say 50 years in a region,
meaning this infrastructure will be stable if an erath quake happens exactly equal or 
less than 8 Richter. Suddenly an earth quake happens with the power of 8.1 
Richter and some areas of the infrastructure becomes unusable and needs to be 
Somebody comes and says , hey this infrastructure is not stable, 
you ( the designer) have only designed this for some arbitrary power of
I would like to provide a statement for this infrastructure:
"This infrastructure will stay stable until the 8 richter power of earth quake,
which is the highest happened earth quake in 50 years in a region"
Now back to your comment about arbitrary selection of resolutions:
I have not made any comments which will lead to what you are stating. 
So please do not talk for me.
My point is that I have designed for the most common used resolutions and
I have meet the requirements for layout stability even after two extra incerements.
>but I'll note again here that several of> the links on the left require more than one line, one for a mere four> characters.
Well, eventhough, It might have been nicer to have all the links in one line,
however I do believe it is the matter of choice. I don't see it as what you call 
poor design or layout breakage. I believe you have misunderstood the 
meaning of layout stability.
Having some links in two lines at different resolutions, will not make a layout 
to be considered as an unstable layout. A Layout is considered unstable if when 
resizing the browser's window the content somehow becomes 
unreadable and unusable. Once again I do invite you to revisit my portfolio
for the definition of the "Layout Stability" that I have provided.
> BTW, the link on your page to browsercam presents a page with no screenshot> thumbnails...
well I have it working correctly here and Do not know what the reason is 
for what you are experiencing. However thanks for mentioning.
> I think you need more opinions than your own. I asked people on> irc://moznet/css about it and received 0 positive responses.
well everyone has the right to believe in what they believe in. Eventough 
I listen and take to account what I believe it is true but in general
I do not worry about what people think. However I do respect the ideas.
In the mean time I have received nice comments from other people which
one of them is from an internationally recognized proffessor and a W3C team
member which states:
".... it seems to be as good as it is possible with the current technology" .
Eventhough he did not have enough time to really go deeper inside my portfolio,
however I do believe he is enough smart to know what is a site about even 
with just a quick look.
despite his and other nice comments about my portfolio I do believe there 
might be some more room to work on it. I do not suggest that my portfolio 
is an ultimate solution but I do strongly believe it is one the best on the internet
in terms of cross browser/platfrom compatibility and layout stability.
> In my previous reply I gave you two simple examples on my own site (ksc and> dlviolin), ...
well I think it is not only you having access to internet. I have seen a lot
of web sites, and I have learnt what I know now from internet. I swear I did 
not create the xhtml/css etc myself :) . So i did not ask for links from you. 
What i asked from you is simply providing a cross resolution/browser/platform
solution for what you think is a defect in my portfolio. If you are pointing to
a defect then you should provide a solution for it. 
> I do believe that a pair of narrow columns side by side that do not> remain side by side after using 2 levels of text zoom consitutes breakage.
That is exactly true but under what circumstances? 
Could you tell me what the most commonly used resolution/dpi is
for a computer screen?
and how many people have their screen's dpi set to 144? and why 
do i need to design for it and how much extra time/money
it needs to design for it? Does it woth it at all? is it economical?
please see the above real time example too.
Honestly,with all respect, I do not find your comments helpful,eventough you
might be, sometimes, refering to some good points which I respect.
I have invited all the designers /coders to code for
layout stability and in return the following is all I get from your speech:
I fail to define layout stability. O.K finally you accepted that I have defined the
layout stability (Thanks god , that was just like a night mare man :) ) . Now you have
problem with my grammar. Then you are trying to force me to accept that despite
what I suggets , my layout is not stable.
After all you do not even provide any comments in regards to accepting or rejecting
the idea of designing for layout stability which is the topic. So all of your comments
are off topic.
I definitely do not consider myself as an expert, however,
I do believe, despite my civil engineering background, I have reached
to a point in web design field as a front end coder which most of the professional
coders have not. However I do learn everyday and I definitely see
room for improvement.
I am not trying to be a hero and not trying to promote myself.  All I ask is 
an invitation for desgining for layout stability which I have defined in my
portfolio, to prevent web content from being unreadable and unusable.
If there are some people that do not want to accept the fact that it is me calling
for this invitation for whatever reason, then that is their problem.
Thanks a lot for joining to me in this discussion. Eventhough everybody has the right
to talk about what they like, however to prevent this thread from being
too long, I would appreciate providing comments only on topic.
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