aardvark wrote: >>From: Ron Dorman <rwd at csi1st.net> >> >[...] > >>you make a good point. many people to perceive a roadblock here. but >>you and I know that perceptions are seldom reality. perceptions are >>what people chose to believe. They are often skewed by inaccurate >>information and especially by inaccurate information being repeated >>over and over and ..... >> > >except in discourse, perception *is* reality... > Only for the person perceiving it. Would you like Jeffry Domers perceptions to be your realities? Extreme, yes, but my point is, we have the privilege of choice (so did Domer). If we chose to believe anything we read/hear/choose without validating it's facts and quality, we are working under skewed perceptions instead of facts (reality). True defects in the function of the brain are the only exception to perception being a choice. Are we mature enough to work with this philosophy and re-examine what we have read on these lists? "perceptions and desires - the downfall of human kind" author unknown. >>I believe Dan has done, and will continue to do, what is best for >>evolt.org. I believe this in spite of all the things that have been >>said. I believe this way because I have looked past the yammering of >>the theforum and admin lists to what happens on the other lists and >>the evolt sites. I see the participation in other areas and lack of >>participation in this area. A lot of good people want to contribute >>and help but walk away from here because of what goes on here. I >>don't blame them one bit. If I were not so stubborn, and I did not >>love the concept and dream of evolt.org, I would walk also. I am >>stubborn, and I do love the concept and dream of evolt.org, and I will >>not be quite while it is threatened. >> > >i want to contribute, but am not granted the privileges necessary... >i can upload browsers, but i can't admin the list, or do other keen >things... i have contributed in the past, but am no longer able to... > I disagree that you can no longer contribute, that is what you are doing with these email exchanges. As for "admin the list", can you specify which list and what "admining it" might include? This is what Michele was asking for. "other keen things" might be fun stuff or might be things that really need to be done. But until we know what they are and why they are are being done, we can not organize it, develop a process for it, or grant access for it (safely and in good conscience) no matter who is asking. For what it's worth, I have no access at all, I don't even see pending articles when I log in. I believe I contribute to evolt even with this level of access. Adrian, you have contributed very much to evolt in the past and continue to contribute. Why do you say you are no longer able to do so? If more access is required to contribute the way you want to, add it to the list Michele proposed (wherever it ends up, I know, another delay, but as organization and process improves it will take less time) we will be on a good track to where we need to go. >my perception is my reality... i haven't walked away... i've done >everything i can with what privs i have... > Yes, your perception is your reality, but still your choice as to what builds your perception. I am glad you have not walked away. Getting response from everyone about what they want to do to help is a very good start to defining priveleges and getting them set up. >i'm sorry that you feel this list consists of yammering, since i >thought we all *wanted* this opening up to happen... but nobody >here feels empowered other than those with specific access... i >don't feel empowered and i helped found the damn thing... > >[...] > My use of the word yammering was a generalization and probably should not have been used. I should have stated clearly what I wanted to say. It is dificult to do that without offending anyone. What I mean is, the recurrance of "Dan" bashing, the recurrance of "I did, you did", "this was decided but never done", "well, I set this up for a similar purpose, use it", etc., etc., etc . . . . sorry, but I can't hold this in any longer; a bunch of self interest BULL SHIT! Let's get past it. If it can't put it aside, go play in another sand box or be quiet so those that really want to grow and improve evolt.org can do so. Access priveleges, titles, responsibilities, processes are moot and worthless until we have the cohesiveness and cooperation we had in the beginning. If your feelings are out on your sleeve and got hurt, sorry, that's life. If you didn't get what you wanted, sorry that's life. It should not impact or even be mentioned here or on admin. A list was set up for personal messages and interaction. >>very true. it will take time and refinement after practice. but >>unless the dissent goes away and people work with open minds, we will >>have more of what we have. >> > >there will always be dissent... it's unfortunate we're viewing it as >negative... contrary viewpoints have always been our strength... > Contrary viewpoints for improvement and discussion to a solution, yes. What we have experienced for the past few months is no where near that ideal. What we have been experiencing is power and control fights. I don't understand it. There is nothing to be gained by controlling evolt.org. Control of evolt.org is in the hands of the users (should be). Execution of the tasks to support that control is up to the volunteers on theforum, admin and thesite. We need to create an organization and processes that support the execution. As I said to Martin at one time, I know of no other situation or organization like evolt.org. We have to continue creating what the dream is. Organization, processes, management, legal recording and filing, management, the whole thing. When I mention dissent in regards to evolt.org, I am referring to those that continually bash Dan, continually say we abandoned our decisons, continually argue because they have not gotten their way. >> "How can you expect different results if you continue to do what >> you are doing?" >> > >that's a good question... and how can we expect different results if >no one addresses the concerns voiced by many? > really by the many, or just the loud, never quiet few? > >[...] > >>ok, I thought it only fair to include Dan since most of this is >>directed at him being "the one in charge" and being less than good >>leadership. >> > >it really isn't as directed at him as it may sound -- it's directed at >how we do things... if it were anyone else, i'd say the same things... > I disagree Adrian. How many times have seem similar posts from the same members, on simailar issues? >>I do not share the opinions that Dan has excluded, denied and cut off >>people truly trying to help evolt. I do not share the opinion that >>Dan is bad leadership. So let's get it hashed out, buried and move on >>to a better evolt.org. >> > >fwiw, i've never felt dan has intentionally acted to the detriment of >evolt.org... i've always felt he's acted in its best interests... > >but there is, and always will be, disagreement on what those are >and how they are achieved... > >i'm wary of complete agreement, and i've always played the devil's >advocate, even on issues i agree with... i will continue to do that >here... > I know that, most who know you know that you will be the balance, if you agree or not. That is one (actually many) of your best contributions. Yes, there will always be dissagreement. But if everyone looks for a solution to the disagreement we progress. When some disagree consistantly no matter what, we digress. That is the problem. We have members that are unhappy and disagree even when they get what they ask for. Ron D.