.| From: Russell Griechen .| > .| The webmonkey experience was typical of the turf wars. .| But looking at it from a historical and 'lessons learned' .| point of view...Dan was the innovator...try this...try that. again Russell, your facts are all wrong, far too wrong to even bother to correct you, but i'm still going to. the revolt that became evolt.org came about after a group of people repeatedly asked for open archives of the webmonkey mailing list. after waiting for probably 6 months and getting no response from the webmonkey team, dan decided to post his own collection of webmonkey emails as a temporary webmonkey archive, until the real thing would be launched. this was his way of giving back to a community that had helped him on numerous occasions. the legal eagles over at lycos, that had recently acquired wired at the time, decided that they didn't like the fact of open archive, especially not one that they couldn't control and possibly sell advertisements on, and therefore requested that dan would take the archive down. it was just as much the way they asked as the request itself that ignited the community disapproval which lead to 35 people getting together off[wm]list developing what would become evolt.org. so you see, the fact that lycos had possibly intended to have public archives with ad space, was a big pet peeve of ours and became one of evolt.org's criteria ... in a 'for the people, by the people' way, with no commercialism at all - to prove to the world, that a big web community could be run without selling every corner to the highest bidder. (i'm not claiming that wired did, but we wanted to make sure that our new community never would). there was not one founder - there were about 25-30 - there was not one leader - there were about 25-30 - most of whom were equal contributors of different aspects of the development, some visible, others behind the curtains. after launch of the evolt.org project those 25-30 people worked really hard to keep it together, as it grew bigger and at the same time because of the great understanding and appreciation of dan's employers the load on him got bigger than many others, this we tried to change, but probably came about it in a completely wrong way, which gradually lead to dan's departure. so here's me mourning dan's departure, but still claming that your facta is wrong russell, non-commercial model was one of the cornerstones of evolt.org's creation and is what seb was referring to. oh, and by the way, seb is included in the list of 25-30 i mention above, not that he needs defending at all, his work speaks for itself. cheers elfur an active member of evolt.org from day one whose name you probably don't recognise either.