[thelist] Business/Payment Question........

[aardvark]

> From: "John Corry" <john at neoncowboy.com>
>
> |that wasn't my argument at all... if you have a client for web work,
> |and you *cannot* or *will not* provide same day service when they
> |request it, then they'll look elsewhere...
> 
> Then let 'em!

so be it... part of business is knowing who you want as a client, 
and who you don't... personally, same day service is not an 
unreasonable expectation, so i'll provide it whenever i can...

> ...and while they're looking elsewhere, I hope the people who know
> exactly how it ought to look (they just don't know the software to
> create it, you know) will look elsewhere too...and the ones who want
> me to teach them HTML so they can make their own changes...and the
> ones who want to tell me how long it should take to re-configure Phorm
> to work on another domain and change all of the includes so they'll
> work on the new domain too..and the ones who know some guy's sister
> who does web design for $20/hour, so I should too. They can all go
> look elsewhere.

so, you're willing to throw all that away?  i'll throw most of it away... 
but some of those can be turned into real work depending on the 
client... but that's a whole different discussion...

i also send the "my nephew does web work for $20" people to their 
nephew... maybe that guy's sister and this guy's nephew can get 
together...

> Y'know why? Because all those clients do for me is waste time that I
> could otherwise spend developing trusting relationships with clients
> who are capable of comprehending such a thing.

good for you (i sound so patronizing, don't i?)... it's important to 
know what clients are good, and what clients are bad... clearly you 
know what works for you...  thankfully i have people i can task to 
all the problems you cite above, meaning i can still have some of 
them as clients despite the management issues... does this mean 
we keep them all?  of course not...

> |the context of the post was that this client *does* expect it, and
> |creating a billing arrangement that still allows this *and* protects
> |the developer (while benefitting the client) is always worth looking
> |at...
> 
> It was a pretty good suggestion, but I don't think her client is going
> to go for it.

perhaps not... but proposing it and seeing the response might tell 
her more about the client to let her know how to proceed next... it 
doesn't hurt to propose it, and it certainly *can* help to propose it... 
if the only problem is that they take 30-60 days to pay, then she's 
got it easy...

> Have you ever been jerked around by a client Aardvark? It's a hard row
> to hoe when your out lots of hours, there's no pay in sight and mad
> people are suggesting that *you* are the one who is being an asshole.

hell, yeah... no matter how hard you try, there will always be 
clients who get in under the radar and screw you... just got through 
with one where we had to hold their site hostage for 3 months... 
and they'll never be a client again... others who are impossible to 
manage, but you account for it when quoting jobs, so you have 
room to play... knowing when to walk away is important...

> She identified the client as being a) demanding and b) reluctant to
> pay. If you can get that client to pay upfront, you're in the wrong
> business!

well, the client is demanding insofar as they expect a web site can 
be updated daily (which isn't odd given the nature of the web), and 
reluctant to pay insofar as they pay on 30-60 day terms (which isn't 
that far out of the norm)...

i've had that client many many times... and i've proposed the 
upfront payments many many times, and most take it, and they all 
love it... and i do, too...

if they *don't* want to do it, you need to decide why that's the case 
when they would save money on the deal (perhaps they're living too 
close to the edge?  perhaps they plan to screw you?)... that's when 
you reconsider the situation...

again, this is all based on the presumption that the client cited in 
the original post doesn't pay for 30-60 days... i don't see that alone 
as a problem... or as a non-payer... she never said the client is a 
non-payer...

> |that's one way to do it... i base my approach on the client... those
> |who don't pay don't get their work until they pay (final product),
> 
> so if they don't pay, how do they get their work when they pay?

huh?  if they pay, they get their work per the agreement (CD, 
uploads, installs, whatever)... if they don't pay, we don't hand it 
over... our projects usually span billing cycles, so we know pretty 
well whether they'll pay or not... for the smaller projects, we're a bit 
more cautious, but we work it out with the client...

> I shudder to think about the attitude some of my tougher, cheaper,
> non-trusting, paranoid clients would take toward everything if they
> were out a few thousand dollars with nothing to show for it. I can
> hear them freaking out about how much more work I owe them, 'I didnt
> know it was going to take this long to blah-blah-blah! You were going
> to blah - blah! I thought surely for $1000 that you'd have my blah -
> blah doing blah - blah by now!'

you don't have a scope document with client sign-off?  project 
plan?  even a cost estimate?  if not, then yeah, what do you expect 
them to say when you go over budget?

if your client can say that they didn't know it would cost this much, 
two things are possible:
- you've mis-managed the client...
- the client is lying, as evidenced by a signed agreement...

> I'm glad you have found a solution for this, but it doesn't sound like
> a viable solution to me at all.

it's a standard quoting and sign-off solution... it's general business 
practice... if you're still talking about the client not knowing how 
much it would cost, that is (your paragraph above)... either the 
client is lying (and you defeat them with the signed agrement) or 
the client never knew the cost (and you've mis-managed them)...

correct me if i've got the wrong idea on what you mean...

> Of course, I don't have a grasp on solving all client problems. In
> fact, this is a self confessed weak spot in my business. I try to be
> real up front about everything and make suggestions that will save my
> clients money. I work both by the hour and according to estimates.
> When I estimate costs, I stick to my estimates, even at the expense of
> making $5/hour.

ok, then why would your client be surprised at a cost?

i think we're well beyond the theme of the original post, that we're 
more into just a costing discussion now...

> |i hate to say this about
> |the other feedback you've gotten,
> 
> somehow i doubt that

no, i generally don't like to say my advice is better, and while i 
don't think it is necessarily, i do think it's a better first step... talk 
to the client, try to work it out... if that doesn't work, then hold their 
stuff hostage... this adversarial thing with clients doesn't help 
anyone...

> |but you're probably better off
> |disregarding it...
> 
> Oh please...your arrogance makes me want to puke sometimes.

well, that's one option... personally, i use my finger if i want to 
chunder...

> whatever.

well, you don't have to use *my* finger...

> Sandi, you're lucky to have Aardvark looking after you. God knows what
> would happen if you listened to the opinions of several *working
> professionals* in this community and then came to a point of decision
> about how to handle your situation.

unfortunately, none of us truly knows the situation... for sandy to 
take any of our advice at face value would be dim... but if you think 
holding work hostage as the *first* step is the way to go in this 
case, then so be it... i think it's short-sighted and antithetical to the 
overall client relationship...

what's so hard about proposing an idea to a client?  if the client 
balks, take harsher measures, but why start with the slap?

btw, what does the "working professionals" statement mean?  i 
have this sneaking suspicion you have no idea what i do for a 
living... chicken plucking doesn't pay too well, after all...

and who came to a "point of decision?"

> Sorry for the negative tone everyone, but to have one member telling
> other members they'd be 'better off' disregarding input from the
> community kind of bothers me.

wow, one time in years i suggest that, and someone calls me on 
it...  i really need to get thank you notes (i have no idea what that 
means)...

anyway, yeah, i stand by my statement... the other two 
suggestions about holding the work hostage, are, as stated above, 
a poor way to start off, IMNSHO...

what's funny is that i'm the one who's the dick, but i'm suggesting a 
nicer way to work with the client...

where have i gone wrong?