[thelist] rentacoder.com / industry job issues

[Tom Dell'Aringa]

--- bruce <bedouglas at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I tend to look at the issue from a larger perspective... Two issues
> here.
> 
> 1) The only reason the problem you exist (with regards to software)
> is technology. The internet has allowed almost anyone to create
> software, to so to speak put their hat in the ring to bid/create 
> apps... you are no longer competing against your neighbor/some 
> other guy in your same basic community....

Sure, I see your point. You are saying an inordinate amount of people
have become "draftsman" so to speak.

> 2) Cost basis. The differnce if fee structures for different
> communities....
> 
> I would hope you would agree that the fundamental issue is how much
> should it cost for software to be developed?? .....
> You seem to be saying the issue is that two guys are charging
> drastically different fees for the same work.... And I agree..it 
> seems to be happening... If we agree that's the real issue.... The 
> question gets back to what i proposed earlier... who is closer to 
> what the "right" price should be....

I don't know if you can say there is a "right" price. But common
sense tells you that $500 for a 5,000 e-commerce site that takes 2
months of 40-hour weeks to develop isn't "right" - in a sense. See
below.

> I ask this question, because if there's no right price... (and some
> who create Open Source would say it's whatever the customer will
> pay...) then what's the real complaint...

In any free market, prices are set by supply and demand for sure. If
all the customers will only pay $500, yer stuck doing it for $500.
But that isn't the "going" rate as it were. That's just the rate that
some clients are trying to pay (and getting it.) It doesn't tell the
whole story though. We don't know what happens after.

> What you're really talking about is the fact that it's becoming
> harder to find the jobs/contracts/given that there's alot more 
> competent competition in the world of software development..... 

Now we are getting cause of the issue at hand. It's not necessarily
harder for me to get work because of the "low ballers" (we'll call
them). You mention *competent* competition. How do we define
competent? I'm trying to keep this as short as possible, so to be
brief - what quality of work is the client going to get? What kind of
business relationship will it be? How will support be handled? What
kind of experience and expertise does the person have? Now you've
thrown quite a bit more items into the fray to decide on... 

> There's a reason that Sun/Microsoft/IBM/EDS/etc.... are heading to 
> India....

Sure. That's why wherever I have been in the last 5 years, I have
worked with contractors on work visas from India/Singapore etc.
constantly. (And mostly very good people, mind you - I'm not at all
complaining.) Certainly it makes business sense. But even these
people who are working for less - they are still making a fair and
comparible wage. 

If a U.S developer on said project is making $60/hr, they might pay
the worker on a visa $35-45/hr. But not $5 or $10. 

> Personally... I have no real idea as to how to solve this...I also
> do not know if it needs solving..as I look at this as simply 
> another wave in the history of technology/biz development....

There's an old saying: "The client usually get's what he deserves."
If you hire a guy for $5/hr, in *general* terms, expect that quality
of work. 

The kind of clients I do work for will absolutely not hire a
high-school kid, or a student for basement rates. Because their
projects are mission critical. But what about the compentent people
overseas?

Again, there are advantages and disadvantages. Do you want to work on
a schedule where your workers are working while you are asleep? Do
you adjust your business schedule? If you do, there are still other
considerations. Even simple things like communication breakdowns
because of cultural and language differences.

Most importantly, do you want the work done out of sight? All my
contracts this year have been on-site jobs. They have ranged in pay
from the low end of $21/hr to high of $39/hr. I won't be rich anytime
soon on those rates (and I don't take low rates like 21 if I can help
it) but it at least pays the bills for my family of 4.

My clients want me on-site because working on a project is more than
just checking in some code to a CVS. Part of it is human interaction.
This is I think a very important intangible.

Furthermore, I have 10 years of experience to offer. That means
something to many (but not all) employers. You do tend to get what
you pay for.

There are good contractors out there in India and other foreign
countries that charge very low rates, and they will get jobs. And
many of them will do good work. I (we) simply need to work harder for
the jobs we want, and know and sell the value that we offer. It's not
an issue that will go away or that can probably be 'solved.' So we
need to learn how to cope with it as part of the overall technology
environment.

Sorry for the length - this is hard to keep short!

Tom



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