I'd agree - it seems to be more of a billing issue. In that case - a company should make provision for internal resources to provide support for people like Ken to develop their own applications- whether it be on Notes or J2EE. They can then run a QC check to ensure it's within acceptable bounds. I've worked in organisations where such false economies existed - and it's incredibly frustrating. J2EE is great - it's hard to get into initially - but once you're over that initial learning curve, it all starts falling into place. Ken, I'm sorry mate - I really do sympathise. I'm sure there are plenty of people on the list who have vast experience in static html models, where they can offer exactly what you're after, but I've skipped that arena altogether and gone straight to the friendly world of PHP. Best of luck! -----Original Message----- From: thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thelist-bounces at lists.evolt.org] On Behalf Of Steve Lewis Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:35 PM To: thelist at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thelist] Enterprise Red Tape was: Web Based Employee Directory - prt 2 Ken Chase wrote: > I am part of an extremely large organization and I do not have access > to the server. I would have to pay our internal programmers for any > customized server-side development work and they only support J2EE and > Oracle (BTW - I can't have Notes customized). Thanks for sharing this detail, Ken. It gives me a chance to raise another question, and this one is a bit more esoteric... and not directed at you personally. I am hoping a few folks might chime in here. > Although I fully understand that using a database and scripting > language is the way to go for this type of product, it would be cost > prohibitive to my department. The J2EE model should streamline the process of reading and updating commonly used data. It should cut down on the number of rogue servers, wasted resources, and concurrent development of redundant solutions to common problems. In essence, it should bring the concept of code reuse out of the box and into the organization's culture. I do believe in the J2EE model. I believe it can serve your needs, as well as that of the company. In fact, I work in a Java servlet environment that is transitioning to the Web Services and J2EE models (still). Ken's dilemma is far from unique, however. The question is, why is it so hard? The internal programming group *should* be able to stick their most junior programmer on the task of code-reviewing-before-publishing of a simple JSP page that Ken should be able to customize, utilizing previously-developed-and-documented Web Services to extract the department's employees' info. The sample code for the JSP that accesses the web service could be generated in 30 minutes by said junior programmer, and then Ken could manipulate the HTML presentation (per this thread) using the sample code as his starting point. The email form should be able to repeat the same pattern. What makes this sort of task so difficult in the real world? How can those barriers be removed? > At this point, I'm mostly looking for general inspiration with regards > to functionality and design as opposed to recommendations for specific > technologies. Sorry, I don't have much in the way of suggestions myself on this point. I know there are folks here who probably could. Best of luck. As I suggested before, it seems to me that you are being asked to build a house without using a hammer. Now I understand that is an external, political, requirement. regards, Steve Lewis -- News! - Evolt.org conference for web professionals. 17-19 September 2004 in Toronto, Canada. Details at http://TOevolt.org * * Please support the community that supports you. * * http://evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archives of thelist go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt !