[thechat] West v. East (was: civilized vs uncivilized)

[Erika Meyer]

>Erika Meyer wrote:
>>  http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46915,00.html
>>  So let me get this straight: in order to defeat the "uncivilized"
>>  world, the "civilized world" is reducing civil liberties, declaring
>>  global war, expecting to kill innocents in the process.  Good work,
>>  guys.  Brilliant.

Joe Crawford wrote:

>as a general description of an event, this aptly described both unjust
>and just wars - it perfectly describes the US in World War II.
>
>I see your point, but it's not a strong argument against war.

Well, I wasn't so much arguing as ranting there... the implicit 
argument being that it would be hypocritical to adapt the same 
behaviors you have denounced in your enemy... the same behavior you 
are going to war over.

(Osama has done just that, actually.  His stated justification for 
the judgement to kill US civilians is that the US has a wartime 
history of killing civilians.)

I don't know that I believe there is such a thing as a "just war" 
although I would expect that any "sane" government that practices war 
to practice that type. 
http://www.leaderu.com/socialsciences/clark.html

(If you really believe that war is a sane activity.)

I certainly have issues with US conduct during WWII.  Hiroshima. 
Nagasaki. I also realize that when someone like Hitler comes to town, 
something seriously needs to be done.

OTOH, it was the aftermath of WWI that enabled Hitler... so you could 
say that WWI caused WWII... and the it was the aftermath of WWII 
which brought on the Cold War and the Cold War which brought on the 
Vietnam War and so on.

Looking at the big picture of war, it would seem to behoove any 
country not to create one, or to jump into one.  The effects are 
deadly bad and go on for generations.

>the Kymer Rouge in Cambodia.

Taliban remind me of Kymer Rouge.

>http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4261623,00.html

The thing is:

1. Hitchens already knows about all the awful crap the US has done & 
doesn't want to hear about it.  Good for him.  Most Americans are 
still blissfully ignorant, and that is an ongoing problem.

2. I agree that the US couldn't have done much in the past few years 
to stop the NYC attacks.  I do think that the US has had a part in 
creating a hostile environment over many years, while flaunting it's 
domestic wealth.  This creates a big target.

3. Criticizing US actions doesn't automatically mean one condones the 
Taliban or Bin Laden's actions.  The fact remains though that 
fundamentalism becomes attractive when the world is going to hell, 
and that fascists thrive when the populace are weak.

I understand how people can turn to "extreme" ideas.

I was a welfare mom for three years in a rural depressed area. I was 
patronized and disrespected by the welfare agencies.  My legal rights 
were not respected, and I had to spend all my energy fighting for 
food, child-care, housing.  I was taken advantage of by landlords and 
socially stigmatized.  I tried so hard to climb out of my pit, and I 
was treated like dirt.  I felt so powerless.  It felt like hell. 
Made me angry.  Radicalized me.

It's a lot easier to be moderate (or liberal or whatever) with a good 
education, health care, and a full belly.

The worst thing is to watch your own child suffer from a lack of 
basic necessities while nearby you can see the rich and powerful 
blissfully sunning themselves by the pool... and worse yet if you 
believe their wealth is a result of something they took from you.

A lot of people are in this boat.

And now imagine someone cares... someone talking all holy and 
spiritual... someone who can help you... someone to inspire you... 
someone to convince you it is possible to get back what is rightfully 
yours.  Someone to convince you that you are a warrior, and not the 
riffraff you've been taught you are...  someone to teach you your own 
power... to convince you that with the proper behavior, you can 
defeat those who took your wealth.

It's a familiar story.

I think the move toward any kind of radicalism is easier to 
understand once you've experienced poverty (and powerlessness) in the 
face of wealth (and power).  It changes your whole outlook.

It messes with your mind.  Don't try it at home.

E


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