[thechat] West v. East (was: civilized vs. uncivilized)

[Ron White]

Ok Erika, perhaps you didn't pay attention in History class during the
discussion of WW2. So here goes in a very brief summation:

<erika>
>Japan was already losing the war at that point...
And invasion would have been bad for everyone...
Why did we demand an _unconditional_ surrender from Japan?
... and meanwhile, turn around and give Stalin control of Eastern Europe?
</erika>

No shit they were losing the war, but they thought otherwise. Invasion would
have been bad, but necessary to bring the war to a successful end.
We demanded Unconditional Surrender because of a little thing called Pearl
Harbor, remember that? Day of Infamy and all that? On top of which was the
brutal occupation of China, ever hear of the Rape of Nanking, as well as the
Bataan Death March, etc.
And at the time, Stalin's Armies occupied Eastern Europe, not much we could
have done short of dissolving the Alliance we had with them and attacking.
That would have been bad on many accounts.

<erika>
Because we were going to kill them or because the civilians were
going to blow themselves up trying to kill us?
</erika>

They would have died in the crossfire, in suicide attacks and in just plain
suicide. On Saipan and Okinawa hundreds and perhaps thousands of Japanese
civilians committed suicide rather than surrender because their leaders had
convinced them that Americans were barbarians who would rape and pillage.

<erika>
Could you cite sources or provide supporting evidence when you make
claims like "MILLIONS of civilians would have died if..."  (at best,
that statement is an educated guess).
</erika>

Yes, its an educated guess, since we didn't invade. I make that statement as
a student of WW2.
This link will explain much...
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/olympic.html

<erika>
I always look for a creative solution.  I try not to see things in
black and white.  "Invade or drop the bomb."  An impossible conundrum
or a false dilemma?
</erika>

In war, things are black and white: You live or you die, you win or you
lose. War is sometimes necessary and before you respond with some lame reply
that it's NEVER necessary, look at your daughter and tell her the Native
Americans shouldn't have fought back against the white men stealing their
land and way of life...

Thanks,
Ron White