woohoo!! pardon me while i toot my own horn here (not really worthy of mention in Community News) naturally, the first thing i did was an ego search, and voilà -- http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rudy+limeback&hl=en&rnum=2&selm=8756hc%24c g1%241%40nnrp1.deja.com (excerpt from SQL For Smarties) rudy