[thechat] Big stupid plea.

Andy Warwick mailing.lists at creed.co.uk
Wed May 8 11:50:00 CDT 2002


| On 2002/05/08, Joe Crawford said:

<snip background>

Joe.

> And here's (finally) my questions for this group of people who are probably
> appalled by my bringing this here.

Not appalled, no; impressed and moved by your plea. Hang in there. I went though
similar 3 years ago, when out of the blue my wife of 6.5 months walked out. Your
story, feelings, etc. feel eerily similar to my own. I offer the following as
insight in my case. Of course, your situation is different, but hopefully you'll
get something from this, even if its "you're not the only one".

> How do separations *work*? Do they ever work?

In my case, no.

I think if we had both wanted to get back together it would, but it turns out it
was a first step to a longer, more distant separation.

> Do they inevitably end in divorce?

Well we are still legally married, so it's hard to say. We have talked about
divorce, but I believe until either one of us wants to marry someone else, we
shall stay wed.

> One of the things she's said to me is that we may find that after divorcing
> we may end up re-marrying. I have seen this phenomenon before and I'm deeply
> confused by it - what's *that* about?

Can offer no insight there.

> How do people manage to *grow* together? To evolve and change and yet
> maintain a strong enough focus on what binds them to stay together and love
> each other?

As we didn't it's hard to say; I believe it's about both parties *wanting* to. I
imagine almost anything can be worked out if both parties want to work it out.
if there is doubt on either side, it won't be, and - inevitability - you'll
drift apart.

> How important is age in relationships. I know theoretically they don't
> matter, but it feels important here.

It's not chronological agae that matters, IMHO, but - to a certain extent -
maturity, and what each party wants from the relationship.

> Jenny and I have always been friends, which is good, but given how I feel, I
> can't see how that could be maintained. Is it possible to be friends with an
> ex-spouse?

Yes.

Me and my (ex-)wife are still godd friends, though it can be hard to step back
from what we once had. There is *always* a subtext in things that are said, but
it depends on both people realising that, and knowing what is felt doesn't have
to be said.

It may take a little time to "stop the blame", both of yourself and her, but if
you can, then you can stay friends.

> And finally, I've had all kinds of stupid thoughts because I'm so
> web-centric to do some kind of online stunt where I try to win her back.
> I've also considered doing things like picketing her workplace (I was
> thinking signs like "GIVE JOE A SECOND CHANCE") with a group of friends to
> try and demonstrate my crazy seriousness - but again, the few remaining
> rational parts of my brain tell me that's an incredibly bad idea.

And they are right. I have tried that route in previous relationships and they
have backfired every time. Give it space, tell her calmly how you feel and that
what you want is to work it out. Once you have done that, *back off*. Once she
knows where you are coming from, any re-iteration of that stance - however well
intentioned - is counter productive.

CHASING HER IS A REALLY BAD IDEA IN MY EXPERIENCE.

> My Dad
> says I should chill and focus on myself, and NOT chase her.

Listen to him. That's what I did, and while we never got back together, we
stayed friends. If I had chased and pressured here I'm sure we would not even
have that.

> His theory  is
> that women will recoil when chased. Still, one of the things she always
> liked about me was somewhat daring nature. I remember the day I told her I
> was thinking of quitting doing Respiratory Therapy cold turkey and get a web
> job. Scared shitless, but she supported me, and we survived.
>
> But if that's the case, how do I express my resolve that I love and care for
> her, while still staying separated?

Tell her face-to-face.

Ask to meet in a public place, and calmly tell her exactly what you've told us.
No raised voices, no tears. Then make your excuses, leave and give her space.

> I've always tried to be about the zen
> thing - set free what you love - and have always given her space and time to
> think and she's always come back to me - she went to Miami earlier in the
> year for some space, but she came back and things seemed good.

But she's obviously not in the same place about this relationship that you are.
Like I said, in my experience unless *both* sides want it to work, it won't. At
that point it's how you deal, not the end result.

> But now I
> fear that we crossed some invisible line that only she knows about. I think
> my marriage is a dead shark - not moving forward, but stopped, dying on the
> ocean floor. Which is kind of apt because I truly feel like I'm drowning -
> the sorrow I've felt in the past few days has been worse than anything. I've
> felt heartache in my life, but this is worse than I could possibly imagine.

And it gets easier.

A mild and seemingly pointless platitude, but a true one nevertheless.

> And clearly, I'm in a state of desperation.

And that's why you have to think even more calmly and not act desperate.

> If anything, just venting, here, and to friends, and to my sister and
> parents, is a strange kind of therapeutic process.

Yes. It is. I did the same. And I said to people explicity "this has happened
and it's okay to talk about it; in fact I want to talk about it." I made a point
of telling people if they had comments or questions to talk to me about it,
rather than behind my back in whispered rumors. Give people permission to talk
to you about it. You - and they - will be glad you did.

In my opinion, people often get together because they are looking for the same
things out of life at the same time. When those needs and goals start to change
a break-up often happens. It may not be permanent, and they may be wrong about
what they really want. The bloke my ex left me for has since cheated on her, and
she left him too. She is still expecting the spark to be there for ever, and
when it isn't - after 2-3 years, and the relationship has to mature and move on
- she get's itchy feet. At some point she may realise what she is doing, and we
may get back together; she may not, and continue doing that for the rest of her
life. But unless her needs and wants can co-exist with mine, no matter what I do
she will not stay with me, and vice versa.

The thing to remeber is that you - or she - hasn't "failed", it's just that your
needs, goals, outooks - everything - are, or seem, no longer compatible. If that
is a false assumption, and you can both agree that actually you both want the
same, it may yet work; if it turns out that you don't, it's no one's fault and
the relationship won't work out. At that point, what will become clear about you
and her is how you deal with that, and how you move on.

Of course, this is all from my experience, and it may be that you take something
else from this. But - if I were you - tell her what you told us, and let the
cards fall as they will. Once they've done that, it's how you deal with it that
is the real measure of you and her as people and friends.

"Failure is not being knocked down, failure is staying down."

Andy



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