[thechat] Application Forms (Was: predictive indexing - is it evil ?)

[Martin Burns]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Chris Marsh wrote:

> [..]
>
> > > > So what would be a *better* way of getting useful data?
> > >
> > > But why is this data of any use? This job involves operating a till
> > > and serving customers. Why is anything written on a form of
> > any use to
> > > a potential employer?
> >
> > Think about the questions - "Do you understand the job the
> > same way we do?" "Can you show you're up to it?"
> >
> > I'm *still* waiting for a better solution. In the absence of
> > which, then the current system (which gives us employees who
> > perform OK) will stay.
>
> The only way to *know* if an employee performs well is to employ them
> and find out.

Yes. The application process is to reduce the risk involved.

> The step before this is to see if they have performed well
> in the past (references). The step before this is to talk to them face
> to face and question them about their suitability for the job
> (interview). The step before this is ascertain that they wish to work
> for you. The latter stage is the application form stage. The lack of
> importance of this stage is illustrated by the fact that the more
> complex the role, the less likelihood there is of being obliged to even
> fill out an application form. A CV gives the employer all the
> information they need to make a decision on whether of not an interview
> is merited. Does the applicant wish to work here? The chances are high,
> as they have submitted a CV. Is the applicant suitable for the post?
> Yes/no depending on experience listed on the CV. What information does
> essay-type questions on an application form give you that a drier
> listing of experience doesn't;

As the two questions were standard first interview questions, I imagine
the point is to make the interview process faster for the recruiting
manager - making the form stage a tougher test, and make the interview an
easier "is this person likely to fit into the team here?" test.

> > > I could submit a form on your behalf, and inform you
> > > after the fact.
> >
> > With my signature, right? And are you going to turn to to the
> > interview instead of me? And do the job instead of me?
>
> Ah, here you miss my point (or I mis-make the point). This stage is
> merely to get to an interview. The person in question is eminently
> suitable for the role, has experience, has fantastic references and
> enjoys hard work. She *doesn't* have any anecdotes that fit the rigid
> questions in the application form.

It seems that your main objection is "This is over the top for this job."
Maybe you're right. Maybe the real worry is asking too much too early for
your liking (after all, from an applicant's time point of view, the funnel
you described earlier also means that applicants don't waste their time
going to interviews for jobs they're not going to get).

Besides, she may not be able to recall any anecdotes, but if she's got the
experience, I'd be surprised if she couldn't think up any evidence to back
it up.


> It is easy for you to
> gain an interview on the strength of my application form. How you
> proceed from there is down to you, but there is no way for the employer
> to tell that the person that is in the interview is the one that filled
> out the application form.

You've not been interviewed well, then. Job #1 of an interview is to
assess any claims made on the form or CV.


I *can* see that issuing application forms
> that are effectively a CV template are useful, as collating the data on
> various applicants will be made easier.

Yep. It's also a way of making sure that the data you ask for is stuff you
believe to be useful (as opposed to what the applicant thinks is useful),
and by standardising the forms (hey, maybe it's a company-wide form..?),
your recruiting managers won't put anything stupid there that's likely to
get them sued.

> > Fake it and you'll be found out. It's not perfect, but it's
> > good enough.
> >
> > > You could get an interview on the strength of this, and
> > > yet the company would still know absolutely nothing about your
> > > suitability for the post.

If it's faked, you'll get found out.

> > Until the interview. At which point, a lot of the wasters
> > will be screened out and we can spend the time probing
> > everyone whose form suggested they know their stuff.
>
> So how does asking this kind of question as opposed to requiring a list
> of experience (CV) decrease the number of wasters at interview?

I was assuming that the form had a list of experience on as well. These
questions are typical interview questions, so if you as an applicant can't
answer them (especially the first one), then you're not getting the job
anyway.

Cheers
Martin
---------------------------
"Names, once they are in common use, quickly
 become mere sounds, their etymology being
 buried, like so many of the earth's marvels,
 beneath the dust of habit." - Salman Rushdie